Are Men Manly Enough?

Evan Marc Katz

Recently, 8 authors, bloggers and comedians participated in a discussion in the Room for Debate area of the NY Times called “Are Modern Men Manly Enough?” The New York Times asked:

Are men spending too much time at the spa and the gym in lieu of grittier, manlier pursuits? And if so, is this making them less masculine?

The debate includes short pieces that advocate a return to manliness. A few excerpts…

“Rediscover the Don Draper Within” by Joel Stein, columnist:

We can’t solve this man-crisis by sitting on a couch watching “Ice Road Truckers.” We’ve got to start fixing our own toilets, exercising outside at 6 a.m. and hunting the meat that we cowardly eat from far crueler factory farms. Otherwise, the tribe down the street might raid us and pillage our apartment.

“Where are the Meat and Potato Men?” by Natasha Scripture, blogger and author:

Come to think of it, I haven’t met a manly man in quite some time. Maybe because most of them live in Montana. Or Texas. Or Sicily! They’re certainly rare sightings in New York City because here the abundant local species seems to be the metrosexual.

Lot of jokes at men’s expense, many of them funny. But what is there to really learn from this? How did men get this way? Is this a good thing or a bad thing?

If you prefer a world where men are the he-man type, then you must advocate for a world where women are the docile and helpless type.

Not surprisingly, I’ll say that it’s both.

What’s bad about men – and, well, women as well- is that we’re completely not self-sufficient. I’ve long ago accepted that I’d be the first person kicked off Survivor island. The lack of air-conditioning alone would spell my demise. I own a wrench but can’t use it. I have a very active subscription on Angie’s List. I hire a handyman to hang big picture frames. And I’m not really ashamed at all. Because really, who said that you’re more of a man because you can use tools, fix computers, or hunt for food?

We’re fortunate enough to live in a world where I don’t have to do these things. If I DID have to do these these things for a) survival or b) to be attractive to women, I’d be at a disadvantage. But I don’t. I have a plumber and a gardener and a handyman and a pool guy. And my wife has a nail woman and a monthly cleaning lady and a daytime babysitter to take things off of her plate that she either couldn’t or wouldn’t want to do herself. We’re lucky. But we’re not lesser men or women for it.

To me the one guy who really got it right in that NYT piece was Lawrence Schlossman, blogger:

I want to tell the modern man that he doesn’t have to look like a gold rush-era carnival worker or brew his own micro whatever to be considered a man in my eyes. No, it’s way easier than that. How about being a good guy, a good person.

When women say they want a “man, not a boy”, I’m pretty sure that this is the crux of it. Sure, it’s a bonus if you can build a deck in your backyard. But really, what separates the men from the boys? It’s integrity. Honor. Responsibility. Sticking with your word. Knowing how to sacrifice. Putting loved ones first. It’s certainly not about manual labor, ability to survive in the wilderness or fighting for your honor. Those are remnants of a 19th century world. Many of us don’t want to return to that world.

To be fair, I’ve heard the lamentations from women about men losing their masculinity; those same women better take a good look in the mirror about how they’ve lost their femininity. You can’t have it both ways. If you prefer a world where men are the he-man type, then you must advocate for a world where women are the docile and helpless type. And if you think that’s silly, I would ask you: why? Why should men continue to embody ancient stereotypes but women shouldn’t?

That’s right: they shouldn’t.

What we need to do is recognize that many men have become more like women – helping at home, believing in monogamy and pacifism and community. And many women have become more like men: direct, challenging, ambitious, driven. There’s nothing wrong with acknowledging these original stereotypes, or admitting that the lines have been blurred between the genders. What I hope to offer to you, as a reader, is a knowledge that if you’re looking for a typically masculine man, you’re better off being a typically feminine woman. If you’re a typically masculine woman, you’ll have a better fit with a typically feminine man.

As for me, despite my lack of traditional manly skills, I’m still a man. I’m the traditional breadwinner and my wife is the happy stay-at-home mom. And I can assure you that, by abdicating responsibility for home improvement, I am doing what’s best for everyone involved. I don’t have to get frustrated with my failure to wire the lamps in my backyard, my wife won’t be widowed because I haven’t electrocuted myself, I have more time to spend with my family, AND I’m contributing to the U.S. economy!

So to all you Do-It-Yourselfers: you want to be a better man than I am? Great. Hunt me some chicken and I’ll give you $10 before I cook it on my George Foreman grill.

Read all of the entries in the discussion here. I look forward to hearing your thoughts on what makes a man into “a man”.

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138 Comments »Filed Under Understanding Men

138 Responses to “Are Men Manly Enough?”

1. Julia 1

   My dad was a man, in every sense of the word but I don’t really need a man like him but what I do need is a man who will offer to help me move if I am moving, will help me carry up bags from the grocery store rather than playing Halo, etc.
   I might not be the stay at home mom type but I still do my hair, put on my makeup and dress and try my darnedest to be feminine. 

   Oh and honor, integrity everyone needs to have that, those are just traits good people who can see beyond themselves should have, so those are mandatory. 

2. Annette 2

   I enjoyed this blog post…I remember reading one of yours where you said men don’t go both ways, meaning if you want a traditional ‘manly Marlboro-type man’ don’t expect him to enjoy talking about his feelings and cry at sad movies. How true that is! I am currently in a relationship with a guy who’s pretty ‘manly’ and I definitely have my moments where I wish he was more sensitive and in-touch with his feelings. But then I have to remind myself that I have dated guys like that in the past and they drove me nuts. I’m an ex-cop and know myself well enough to know that I prefer the man to be the man.

   I don’t think you can have it both ways most of the time. Or at least, I haven’t found a guy yet that has it all. My guy does tell me he loves me everyday so I save the girl talk for my girlfriends.

3. John 3

   Are men spending too much time at the spa and the gym in lieu of grittier, manlier pursuits? And if so, is this making them less masculine?

     Who the heck wrote this gem? When is working out in a gym not considered manly? I dare anyone to deadlift, do pushups on Olympic rings and do some walking lunges while carrying weights and not call that manly.

4. Heather 4

   I think this is pretty right.  I appreciate the fact that my guy can fix cars, worked on an auto assembly line in college, knows how to help with household and yard stuff, etc.  He’s definitely a “guy.”  But what also makes him a man, is the fact that he has integrity.  Honor.  Respect.  He doesn’t treat me like crap.  He’s not abusive, nor mean-spirited.  And also, he doesn’t need mama’s approval for every damn thing.  I dated someone like that, so for me it’s a dealbreaker if a guy has to get permission to date someone.

   Men stand up and take care of business.  Another prime example is my father.  He is my Mom’s primary caregiver right now, her being really sick with cancer.  He helps her around the house if she’s too weak or sick to do much.  He drives her to and from appointments, to and from work.  He shoulders the load and doesn’t bitch at her.  THAT, to me, is a man.  Anything else is just overgrown frat-boy material, to me.  My ex husband was definitely a boy, expecting me to clean up after him and never supportive when I needed help.

   This was a great article.

5. Ellen 5

   Imo Evan has just barely scratched the surface with this issue. (Sorry for the double post but not busy at work today! lol)…. I have a self-described “beta” platonic friend who is so upset about the change in the genders and the “decline” of men that he not only talks of it often, but frequents a couple of websites devoted to this issue.

   Imo the lines between the genders have blurred so much that it got hard for me to get excited about too many men online after a while. Luckily I found a great boyfriend who is gently alpha, CAN actually (seriously) fix just about anything (and takes great pride in that fact), but still manages to be very in touch with both his and my feelings.

   But I’m a boomer so all this fantasy male=protector and female=nurturer crap lingers with me maybe. Actually I don’t require that a guy be able to fix everything, only that he tries. That he makes an effort to learn how to at least use a few tools and is at least somewhat knowledgable about how a car runs, etc. That he recognizes I don’t have his upper body strength and comes to my rescue once in a while when I need it…. ’Cause I’ve been very busy the last 59 years holding up my side of the bargain, i.e., made it my business to learn how to be the best loving and supportive Mom/daughter/sister etc. I can be.     

   But yeah, the true definition of a “real” man is, and will always be, the guy who always does the right thing. Who is honest, responsible, and doesn’t blame others for his mistakes. Who friggin PROVIDES ’cause isn’t that what men are supposed to do? And at the rate Republicans and others are trying to drag women back into the 19th Century, men had BETTER take that part seriously ’cause it is being challenged (various women’s rights) at every opportunity by these Neanderthals.  Also on their agenda are minorities’ rights…..

   If we aren’t vigilant they will strip us of our rights- reproductive are just the beginning imo- ’cause, to me, Republicans just play dirtier than the Democrats. I no longer believe in either party though.

6. Selena 6

   I think we’ve become less self suffienct -both genders – generation by generation. I’m surprised when someone doesn’t know how to sew on a button. I don’t have a clue how to grow food. Or can it.

   Our definitions of what’s “masculine” and what’s “feminine” may come from the days when most folks were expected to do for themselves instead of relying on others to do/provide things for them. Since that has changed, perhaps our ‘archetypes’ will change as well.

7. Rachael 7

   Good stuff evan!!

   I agree with julia….Where women will ALWAYS appreciate manliness is in chivalry. 

   Offer to lift the heavy stuff, or even better just take it from us! Open doors and ask us if we want or need anything occasionally. Take the trash out! Come on strong every once in a while in the bedroom…

   I guarantee no sane woman who loves the man she’s with will say she doesn’t like it when her man does those things!

8. Rachael 8

   The more I think about this the more I realize how honour, respect, integrity etc. Are key for men who just act manly naturally. 

   The dis-honourable, disrespectful, wishy washy man is never going to offer to carry the groceries! He won’t take out the trash even when asked nicely. He doesn’t open doors and he’s so rarely dynamite in the sack.

   I just described my ex! hah

9. Andrew 9

   Our society has sucked the testosterone out of men starting with Ritalin in the public schools to the current (and well-accepted) social expectations that men are incompetent boobs incapable of tying their own shoes without the help of a strong and independent woman (TV sitcoms, anyone?). Frankly, with such lack of respect, what is the motivation for any young men to step up and do his masculine responsibilities by wifing up some young woman and raising a family? Between video games and Internet porn, a young man doesn’t need to participate in a society that both denigrates his masculinity but schizophrenically demands that he sacrifice his very life working in dangerous yet invisible jobs. “Man up!” is the hew and cry. Men are smart, they know that such exhortations have nothing to do with masculinity, and all to do with unwise and unnecessary sacrifices that don’t have sufficient rewards. 
    
   Some men are turning to Pick Up Artistry (PUA) so they can learned the skills to attract women solely for the purpose of seduction, the pump and dump. These men have embraced a darker form of masculinity and practice it with pride, not caring one whit about their impact on a woman’s emotional state. These are the players, the men who leave women breathless and wanting more but still, they leave to slay another woman’s soul, leaving her bitter and incensed at all men. “No players!” they shout in their online dating profiles. Yet those two words are the siren call for the next player because the woman has just advertised “I’m attracted to players!”. These men share their knowledge and resources very much behind the scenes, unknown to most, so that more and more players emerge onto the dark and difficult dating landscape that is Dating 2.0.

10. Selena 10

    I’ve never understood the door opening thing. If I get to the door first, why the hell wouldn’t I open it, instead of just standing there waiting for the guy to open it?

    And I’ve yet to have a man throw his overcoat over a puddle so as not to risk my dainty feet getting wet.

11. Joe 11

    Dude, you’ve become so feminized that your grill is a George Foreman?

12. Heather 12

    Rachael, I agree with you about the chivalry.  It seems to be a dying concept.  I’ve watched guys let doors slam in women’s faces.  Not get up when they see a pregnant woman standing, on a bus or train.

    I appreciate my guy, or ANY guy, who will hold a door for me, or say “thank you” if I hold a door for THEM.  (That’s rare, getting a thank you out of a guy, let me tell you).  I appreciate any man who doesn’t call me “dear” or “sweetie” who doesn’t know me, or talk to me like I’m stupid.  It’s nice to see the real men, when they do show themselves. 

    My guy is very good about stuff like that, he always carries things for me, holds doors, helped me do laundry when I could barely walk after I had surgery.  He treats his Mom with respect. And like my Grandpa told me, any guy who isn’t respectful to his mother, won’t be respectful to you, so dump those and keep the respectful ones.

13. Evan Marc Katz 13

    @Joe - I wrote that so some jackass like you would write to me. Thanks for taking the bait.

    Yes, Joe, I have a barbecue. In fact, I have two because we have a big backyard. We use them in summer and for larger parties.

    But when I’m making grilled chicken for my baby girl at 7:30pm in January, George does the trick just right. I certainly don’t need to go outside to prove I’m a man.

14. DinaStrange 14

    I think what’s meant as being manly is a guy taking control. Confident and in control of situation, not nec. handyman or a plumber.

15. Ruby 15

    Andrew #9
     
    Wow, feminism at fault again, it’s even the cause of men being players! These days, more and more women are working at jobs that don’t pay the bills, supporting their children as single mothers (despite deadbeat dads), and trying to break into those “invisible”, dangerous jobs that just happen to pay more money than the pink collar professions do.
     
    Women aren’t attracted to players, since players aren’t interested in settling down, having children, or even being boyfriends. Any player worth his salt knows how to hide his player tendencies in the beginning. How else could he succeed at attracting women?
     
    OTOH, you could always join your brethren who are who come to this site to kvetch about Western Women, and and get yourself a subservient, dependent mail order bride from a 3rd world country.

16. Evan Marc Katz 16

    @Ruby – I’m not on Andrew’s side here, but he’s right about one thing: many women ARE attracted to players. If they weren’t, I wouldn’t have a business.

17. Fiona 17

    Do many women really care about this? I don’t care much about DIY skills so much as problem soving skills although I must admit I do like it when men offer to help with my heavy suitcase and things that they can do more easily than I can. On the other hand I know they like that I always make an effort to dress in a very feminine way and am a reasonable cook.

18. AndThatsWhyYoureSingle 18

    I don’t see men becoming less “manly” in the physical sense. More so in the emotional sense. They’ve become more petty and bitchy. . Lots of whining and complaining and name calling. I do think that a  lot of men are thrown by how assertive women have become, both interpersonally and sexually. We had a letter the other day from a guy who – in my opinion – was completely thrown through a loop because a woman wanted to sleep with him on the 2nd date. I definitely see men who are intimidated by assertive women, and that’s not something I’m used to seeing.
    The shift in gender roles, mostly due to the economy I think, has created a great deal of confusion in identity amongst many men and women.

19. Ruby 19

    Evan #16
     
    And you think that the players are completely honest about themselves from the get-go?

20. Andrew 20

    Actually, I care not about feminism or complaining about western women in general. The strawman argument of the “mail order bride” is as old as Methuselah and just as irrelevant. I am merely commenting about the current state of masculinity. Younger men are quickly learning the social landscape and adapting accordingly. I absolutely support that. For every younger man electing not to participate in a culture that clearly has no use for him except as a work-animal is a man who is voting with his feet. The social trend in higher education is already well-established with almost 60% or college graduates being female. Good for the girls. Better for the young men who figured out that there are viable alternatives to the rat race.
     
    “Women aren’t attracted to players, since players aren’t interested in settling down, having children, or even being boyfriends. Any player worth his salt knows how to hide his player tendencies in the beginning. How else could he succeed at attracting women?”
     
    As Evan said, plenty of women are attracted to players. His business depends on it. So do an upcoming generation of guys learning the skills of the player and about to be unleashed into Dating 2.0.

21. Joe 21

    @ Evan: OK, I’m the jackass, Mr. “In fact I have two grills”?

    @ Fiona: but aren’t DIY skills really problem solving skills?

22. Evan Marc Katz 22

    And basically, Andrew, my business depends on warning women against guys like you. Anyone who identifies as a player or a PUA is someone to avoid. Thanks for reminding women what NOT to look for in a partner.

23. Rachael 23

    @selena

    I don’t wait for a man to open a door for me, but if when my bf skips ahead to do it i’m not gonna get my back up about it “I am capable of opening a door tyvm!”.
    Or when he offers me his jacket “I’m an independant woman I don’t need your warmth!!” 

    Give me a break! I do need his warmth and that doesn’t mean I delicate or incapable.

    I do many nice things for him and he reciprocates. Pretty simple. Very nice and refreshing.
     

24. Fiona 24

    DIY problems can also be solved by knowing who to call. I have nothing against me with DIY skills but it isn’t a priority for me.

25. Heather 25

    @ ThatsWhyYoureSingle,
    Spot on.  I’m noticing that too.  Alot more bitchy, nasty, bitter men are coming online, calling names, etc.  I cannot even BEGIN to tell you how many guys I blocked/reported to the site administrators/cursed out in return, for being so nasty, when it was not warranted.  I was called “boozhie” (sorry for the misspelling) because I didn’t write back to an African American guy who clearly sounded scary in his profile.  Called “a bitch” for not writing a novel to one guy who clearly was stalker material.
    To some of those, my reply always was: “Well I am sorry that you feel you have to be such an asshole.  Let me enlighten you.  I don’t date assholes, therefore you and I don’t even have a chance.  You have yourself a wonderful day now, mmmkay sweetie?”

    It really made me think holy shit, all I’m seeing online anymore are carbon copies of a few ex-boyfriends, and an ex-husband, with anger/rage issues that might be one comment away from shooting someone, and I don’t want that to be me. 

    I’m not saying that all women are perfect, absolutely not.  And I’m sorry that we’re not.  But at the same token, leave the bitching at the door, because I’m not going to tolerate a minute of that crap, and that, I will stand up and say to any guy, any time, and if they think I’m a bitch for it, well then there we go.  I’ll be a bitch that’s not dating that guy. Heh.

26. Evan Marc Katz 26

    This is a great reminder for all of our readers: EVERYTHING you experience as a woman, MEN are experiencing as well (except for maybe sexual harrassment). All the flakes and liars and crazy people and rude people and selfish people – there are JUST as many women doing the same things. Which is why you should attempt to be more tolerant and understanding of men. The good ones go through just as much shit (and more, in my instance) as you have.

27. Joe 27

    Fiona, almost any problem can be solved by knowing who to call!

28. Selena 28

    Gee Rachael, I meant that comment as tongue-in-cheek. It amuses me when women go to *door opening* as a sign of chivalry, gentlemenly, manliness, what-have-you. Shoulda applied an emoticon.

29. Andrew 29

    @Evan
    While I know and understand all that PUA stuff, I do not personally identify as a player nor do I incorporate much of that into my dating life. For the most part, that’s a young man’s game and I’m on the wrong side of 50 years old to be “negging” girls in nightclubs or wearing ridiculous hats trying to draw attention to myself.
     
    I was simply commenting on the current state of masculinity and how PUA is a route for some guys, porn and video games for other guys. It’s interesting how Moxie and others have noticed that the level of “discourse” in online dating has declined with far too many men getting emotionally ugly when faced with rejection. Sure, I understand that a generation of men has been encouraged to be more emotional and “in touch with their feelings” but really, getting ugly online? That’s just ridiculous.

30. Fiona 30

    Heather, I don’t even bother respond to those emails any more because I don’t want to waste time and energy and some of those guys are getting a kick out of the response. Best just to block and forget than let some wacko rile you.

    I agree that women are attracted to players but they are easier to spot than Andrew thinks. I was invited out tonight with an obvious bunch of US camera crew players at the Olympics today but respectfully declined because I don’t need a night out with players competing with each other and I am going to watch events again tomorrow so a quiet night it is. I just chose to see it as flattering that they still try at my age but they are only a threat to me if I let them be. 

31. Steve 31

    I hereby pronounce this thread a “brouhaha”

32. nathan 32

    ” If you prefer a world where men are the he-man type, then you must advocate for a world where women are the docile and helpless type. And if you think that’s silly, I would ask you: why? Why should men continue to embody ancient stereotypes but women shouldn’t?” This is so true. I wish more women would recognize that the changing gender landscape is bringing more freedom for people to be themselves, instead of fit into some pre-formed mold. It’s not always easy to figure out how to act when the scripts are less clear, but I’ll take that over feeling like I have be one way, or be considered a doomed member of my gender.
     
    It’s always curious to me how some people act as if specific jobs, tasks, or skills are almost biologically linked to gender. I can paint a garage and sew torn clothes. Both skills picked up out of of necessity. Doesn’t it make more sense to learn skills you need, or jobs you need, rather than limit certain things to one gender or another?
     
    As for chivalry … why can’t we just be kind to each other, and stop expecting that it’s one persons job to do something because of their genitalia? You want a guy to hold the door open for you, start holding doors open for others, including the men you date. There’s often a whiff of entitlement in chivalry laments.
     
    Good men will simply be kind to you because that’s how they are. Stop expecting certain actions, and start looking for kindness in it’s many forms. It’s pretty easy to spot the players and selfish men if you focus on things like kindness.
     
     

33. Robyn 33

    Hey Evan,

    Choosing not to do your electrical repair work yourself is not abdicating responsibility. Far from it – I think it’s entirely sensible to NOT run the risk of electrocuting yourself!
    You’ve still retained overall responsibility for getting the work done - by hiring an electrician, making sure they get the job done on time & on budegt, and by paying for the job.

    Sub-contracting/out-sourcing jobs that you don’t have the time or expertise to complete is more than “manly” – it’s the smartest and most efficient thing to do, be you male or female.
    Especially if you earn a living being paid by the hour (as in professional services, consulting etc.).
    If you earn $100/hr in your chosen profession, it makes a lot more sense to use an hour to earn an extra $100 and pay some one else $25 to do a chore / perform a task for you that would otherwise chew up an hour of your time.

34. Dawn 34

    @John #3

    I  can do all those things too…does that make me manly?

    I can also use a saw hammer screw driver and drill.

    I think on the deepest level what it means to be manly is more basic
    We want to know he will be able to take care of things (deck, sink, toilet, finances)
    And men want women who can nurture and take care of their basic needs ( food comfort sex)

    So I guess those can come in a variety of packages. 

35. Helen 35

    Implicit in these articles and some of the comments is that men are becoming less “manly.” I would say, very few of us are qualified to offer an opinion on that. Which men do we really know except the men in our own generation? We may think older men are more manly because of chivalrous behavior, but that could be confounded by the fact that they’re behaving this way because of the age difference, not the gender difference.
     
    Moreover, every disposition in every generation has its good points and its bad. We may admire an elderly man’s chivalry, but when he was younger, he may well have been the type to assume his wife had to change all the diapers and would never lift a finger to help her. It should not surprise us that changing one aspect of how an entire gender behaves (gradually, over time) will result in other changes that may leave us feeling nostalgic for something we never knew.
     
    If anything, I think men are MORE self-sufficient today than they were in the past. More men now can cook, sew, raise children, and tidy a household. Our abilities change just as our societal needs change. It’s silly to shame men for not being able to hunt if there is no need for them to do so. Can they do what they have to do, all nostalgia aside? That is all that matters.

36. Rachael 36

    sorry selena after I wrote that I though it may have seemed overly aggressive! I didn’t really mean it that way…I just didn’t bother to explain lol I should have also applied and emoticon or a lol myself

    I really just meant to express that allowing those actions doesn’t lower us as women or take power away from us. But some women do have that opinion… 

37. Henriette 37

    Is it sexy if a man can fix a broken window or change the oil in my car?  Sure.  I also find it sexy if a man opens my doors; can whip up a mean spaghetti carbonara; reads fiction; knows how to lay hardwood floors; uses correct grammar; gets a 25+% return on his investments; volunteers at the local food bank; has a hairy chest.  And guess what: none of these is a “must-have.”  Being kind; being steadfast; living within his means while also saving for the future; having no major chips on his shoulder; being able to accept and give affection: these are absolute “must-haves.”  
    I care about a man possessing qualities like honour, integrity and fidelity.  But I would also advise all my guy friends to look for women who possess those traits, as well.  What’s the point of a kind, receptive woman who makes you feel good and cooks well if she’s also a liar and a cheat?  Most qualities of being a desirable mate are neither male or female but are instead tied to being a thoughtful, good human being.
     

38. Selena 38

    Guys who read for pleasure are so cool.  I’ve met very few.

39. David T 39

    @Evan  I can assure you that, by abdicating responsibility for home improvement, I am doing what’s best for everyone involved.
    
    
    
    @Joe – I wrote that so some jackass like you would write to me. Thanks for taking the bait.
     
    LOL.  Thanks.  Needed the chuckle.
    @ Steve 31 I hereby pronounce this thread a “brouhaha”
    Concur. Time to wade on in myself.

    @ Dawn 34
    I have never heard of food comfort sex, but it  sounds messy.
     
    @ Helen 35
    It’s silly to shame men for not being able to hunt if there is no need for them to do so.
     
    Really?  Didn’t you know the whole “losing” the car keys thing is intentional so we can hunt something down even if it is in our own house? We can’t stop ourselves. It’s instinctual, I am telling you, and Paragon would agree.

    (Ssh! I think I hear something jingling in the sofa cushions. . .pounce!)

40. Fiona 40

    Joe, yes most problems can be solved by knowing who to call – not everyone can manage it.

    Nathan, you are right in that I do expect men to be chivalrous but I don’t see that as  a big ask and is a point of pride for most English gentlemen. Any guy that is going to make a point of not holding a door open (which we all do for everyone else anyway) or not helping with heavy luggage is just showing that he is capable of boorish and mean spirited behaviour. I find that most men here love doing those things because it makes them feel useful and they like being thanked for it.

     

41. Clare 41

    When I think of what makes a manly man, the masculine qualities which attract me, I don’t think of He-Man, the Lone Ranger, the lumberjack or the hunter. I don’t even think of those men who “handy” around the house.

    I think of my boyfriend. If I am in trouble or need help, he will always come and sort out the problem for me with as few words as possible. He always tries to keep me safe. He always reaches for the lunch and dinner bill, even though he knows I don’t mind paying my own way. He always makes sure I’m provided for. He’ll never let me carry the heavy grocery bag. I know that he would never cheat on me. He adheres to his own code of integrity and honour unwaveringly, and is so consistent you can set your watch by him.

    He doesn’t like talking about feelings, but I know he cares deeply. He expects me to follow him, but I know he wants to make me happy. He has faults and a few rough edges, but he is a man, through and through. (Maybe I will let him read this, I don’t know if he knows what I think of him )

42. Heather 42

    @ Nathan,

    Ummmmm, actually I don’t see expecting chivalry as “entitlement” at all.  Whether it’s politically correct or no, we women cannot always do the same physical tasks as you.  So to hope that a guy would recognize that, and be compassionate and respectful and kind, I don’t think that’s “entitlement” at all.  Not in the least.  And yes, I DO hold doors for guys if their hands are full.  I DO offer up my seat on a bus or train if I see a guy who is on a cane, crutches, etc.

    @EMK,

    Absolutely, there are lots of rude, nasty women out there.  Trust me, about 95 percent of them out there are my patients.   My commentary was based upon what AndThatsWhyYoureSingle’s comments about guys getting emotionally ugly online.  It just throws me.  If a guy that I’m interested says, “thanks but no thanks” and treated me kindly, why the hell would I go off on him?  That makes zero sense.  But I am seeing a whole lot more of it these days, alot of guys asserting some kind of “machismo” online and being rude and hurtful and just plain old ugly.

    @Fiona,

    Most ugly responses if it’s just dumb, I’ll ignore.  But call me names?  Oh no. That’s my hot button.  My ex husband called me names all the time so I have zero, well less than zero, tolerance for it anymore.  Not from anyone, online or offline.  Those are the ones I chew out, then report, and block too.    The way I see it, you teach others how to treat you.  And by standing up and saying, “Screw you, you will NOT speak to me like that ever again” online, helps me feel more empowered to do that in person too.  Kind of like training wheels.

43. JB 43

    @ Selena “Guys who read for pleasure are so cool“. I’m sure you’re referring to fiction type novels? Most men (and a lot of women) just don’t have time in this modern world to read books. They read the a million pages a day on the internet for work/pleasure etc…. I myself read non fiction self help stuff most of the time like Evan’s and Christie’s books etc….. because that’s what I enjoy as well as the occasional autobiography of someone interesting. I’m lucky enough to have time to do it. If I read one more women’s online profile that says she’s reading 50 Shades Of Gray I’m going to die….LOL Is it “manly” to sit around reading? I love to read, just not fiction.

    On another topic “Manscaping”……There’s a whole generation of men right now waxing their entire bodies because they’re being told that’s what women under 40 find attractive. I’m not talking about a “trim”. I’m talking about chest, arm pits, arms & legs so they look like 8 yr.old boys. So I know that’ll make men more “manly” in the future….LOL Henriette #37 must be over 40?

44. Jane 44

    I’ve noticed a shift in men’s relationship behavior. It seems harder to find guys who take charge, step up to the plate and take the lead in relationships. I am definitely not an alpha female, so I doubt I’m intimidating anyone. I appreciate a man who takes initiative, but many guys (I’m in my early 50′s and date men in that age range) are not willing or able to really take the lead. Very annoying and to be honest, disappointing as well. Men claim to want to pursue, but many seem to lazy to do so.

45. LC 45

    Women don’t like players, but it’s not like the guy is honest with you and says, “I’m just going to pretend to like you until sleep with me.  I’m going to pump and dump you.”  If women were informed that his buying flowers, drinks, taking you to dinner, spending time with you, calling you on the phone, texting, etc. were just a means to get you into bed and then disappear, there would be a whole lot less sex going on.  Once a woman has sex with a guy, she’s pretty much hooked emotionally due to oxytocin, and then the guy either leaves or starts acting like a jerk.  Then he sees how much he can get away with.  Women stick around because they’re emotionally invested and it hurts your soul to be rejected by someone you thought cared about you.  Both sexes are to be blamed in what we have going on in this society.  People treat each other like disposable diapers.  It would be easy for me to be really mean towards men, as that’s what I’ve encountered from all of the men in my life starting with my father, but I continue to hope that someday there will be a nice man somewhere who isn’t playing this awful “manly” game.

46. Rachael 46

    I like a good hairy chest, but nothing wrong with a little grooming if you’re a bear.

    Full wax takes it way too far.

47. Rachael 47

    @nathan

    In my own mind chivalry isn’t an expectation. It is something I admire and appreciate. 

    I hold doors open for ANYONE who is coming through before or after me so it’s not fair to make assumptions. I will still smile and appreciate when my bf makes an extra effort to do those things for me. I admire him when he offers to return carts for elderly ladies at wal-mart. It’s not just all about me…It’s about the natural tendancy to want to help people. It’s a good quality to have in a man. 

    You don’t have to make appreciating a good quality into an expectation.

48. nathan 48

    Heather, Fiona, and the rest who are “into” chivalry: be honest. This isn’t about men carrying heavy things for you, holding doors, or getting up for pregnant women. Good men will do these kind of things, usually without prompting. No, it’s a whole set of behaviors and attitudes that are expected. Like the man asking you out, making the first move on everything. Men constantly paying for dates. Deciding what to do and where to go. Being the breadwinner and provider. Having a “take charge” attitude generally. Always projecting confidence and strength, so that you can always feel “protected.” Individually, some of these things are just fine, but what I notice is that a fair number of women seem to lump them all together and expect that men demonstrate them all, or most of them anyway. That’s entitled in my book.
     
    Note about projecting confidence and strength: The above is different from wanting a generally confident man. That makes total sense. What I’m speaking about here are the subtle and not so subtle ways some women expect men to suck it up, “be a man,” whatever that means, rarely show weakness, never complain, etc. Men reinforce this in other men. And so do some of the women we date. And what’s interesting is that there is often this gigantic contradiction present. Women say they want men who are more vulnerable, open about their emotions, willing to share the household chores, etc. Yet, when men step up and embrace some of this, they’re labeled unmanly, weak, and sensitive. Many women who lament about chivalry seem to also peddle these contradictions. And then wonder why they can’t make a relationship work. Not realizing that the man they seek is a fictional character, inspired by romantic comedies, television shows, and pulp novels.

49. Sheyna 49

    @ ThatsWhyYoureSingle — increasing bitchiness in men, totally!

    In my dating life, the guys I’ve considered the manliest are the ones who were kind of gently bewildered by my mood swings or just well to be a stereotype, maybe slightly irrational emotional outbursts. They just get kind of a puzzled, slightly sad look instead of flinging the bitchiness right back at me times 1000.  They walk next to the street, open doors and always insist on driving. 

    It’s not doing those things, though they are charming and sweet, it’s what doing them is or should be, or could be, indicative of…that they’re going to protect you or at the very least help out in an emergency and not save themselves while leaving you and your babies in danger.

50. Fiona 50

    Nathan, I hate that women have to wait for men to ask them out. That isn’t entitlement. That’s just how it is. I don’t expect men to pay beyond date one which, given that he asked me, doesn’t seem unreasonable to me.

51. Rachael 51

    @nathan

    I see what you’re saying. You didn’t mention my name so I don’t know if you’re referring to me but you did say “and the rest…” so i’m safe to assume you are.

    There is no specific “set” of behaviours I feel entitled to other than reciprocations of respect, support, loyalty, and communication. 

    There are many behaviours I admire. And are you saying i’m not supposed to admire or be “into” those behaviors and tendencies simply because “any good man will do it without prompting”? Well I say to you that’s exactly why I should be “into” those behaviors! Because all of them (together or separate) would be a decent indicator of the character of a man.

    Many of us have an abusive or painful past and we need indicators and behaviors to pay attention to to be sure we are making the right decision on the right man. It’s hard for me to swallow what you’re saying on a website (and I do love this site) that promotes women changing behaviors to show a man they are a good and safe bet! Talk about entitlement! 

    As if we just want to throw ourselves at the first man that comes along, marry him and just EXPECT that he acts a certain way. Because we are entitled…

52. Selena 52

    @JB #43

    Yeah, I’m talking about guys who will read fiction. I had a partner who liked reading the same novels I did. When we both finished a particular book it gave us something to talk about. Which was cool compared to guys who watched tv in their limited spare time.

    Haven’t read 50 Shades of Gray. Don’t think I’d appreciate it, given the reviews I’ve read. I like mystery/suspense stuff – not bad romance novels.

53. Ruby 53

    LC #45
     
    Yes, your comments are what I was alluding to in my previous posts. I’d have to say that most of the men I dated before meeting my boyfriend were getting over an ex, and weren’t ready for a new relationship, rather than being out-and-out players. But maybe that is more of a younger man’s game. Yes, there are some women who are attracted to bad boys, but the idea that women are attracted to men who mistreat them is false, any more than men are attracted to women who don’t care about them either.

54. Leo 54

    Calling the modern man as not being “manly” enough is just another one of those complaints you always hear from the same types of people…

    Those who always have something to complain about…

    Let’s imagine that we’re all “manly” now…

    Those same people will now be bitching about how men are not “emotional and sensitive enough”

    And the whole cycle starts again…

    Gotta love it.

55. Lucy 55

    Being honourable, and you being able to trust him on his word; looking out for people around him and making sure that they feel included  - those are the signs of a good man. I like it when a man can take charge. I want to know that in an emergency, he’d be able to step up and protect me. I don’t want to feel like the man in the relationship.

    If I’m conscious of thinking that he is not enough of a man, then I can’t have enough respect for him, and everyone deserves someone who respects them.

56. John 56

    Dawn#34

    Of course I dont think a girl is manly if she does those things. All I was saying is that the quote from the NY Times article lumped a guy going to the gym in the same bucket as a guy going to a spa. One is a manly thing to do, the other is not.

    Now I must say I am impressed you can do those particular exercises. Besides the good shape you must be in to that, I am equally impressed with the fact that you know how effective those exercises are. So many people waste so much time in the gym doing the most inefficient exercises. If people focused on the bigger bang for your buck exercises like I mentioned, they workouts woul dbe far more productive. SInce you figured that out, it impresses me.     

57. nathan 57

    Rachel, if you can’t see the difference between “admiration” and “expectation,” you’re in trouble. Furthermore, if you choose to read my comments as saying you should “throw yourself at the first man that comes along,” there’s not much point in us having a conversation.
     
    Go back and read my comments more closely. I’m not dismissing looking for good qualities in men: in fact, I’d say it’s always wise to pay attention to the presence or absence of such qualities. Furthermore, I think the baseline qualities you offered are sound: communication, loyalty, mutual respect, and support. I’d add honesty and openness to that list myself.
     
    What I am dismissing the fairy tale that some women have about finding a man who is totally chivalrous, always in charge and yet treats women as equals and is emotionally vulnerable, does all the things men of previous generations did and yet also cooks, washes dishes, and takes care of children. Again, it’s not that any of these things individually is a problem – they all can be good qualities in the right situation. It’s that some women expect them all, or most of them, and then pick apart men in general as being not “manly” enough, or “lazy,” or whatever negative descriptor you want to add here. 
     
    The funny thing is, though, that although some women have these long, contradictory list, they tend to get fixated on things like actions that appear chivalrous, like a guy who always holds doors open or drives you around on dates, or whether men are willing to pay for all the dates and/or schedule and direct all the dates – things that are fairly superficial in the long run. Some men have similarly long lists, but also get similarly focused on superficial issues like super-model quality physical appearances, or whether a woman likes the same music, games, or sports as they do. I actually think the majority of people spend years of their adulthood, even lifetimes, missing out on the most important qualities that sustain a relationship because they’re so focused on less important things their dates or partners lack. Or they are so intoxicated by the presence of them, that they can’t see the lack of the most important qualities, like mutual respect, communication, loyalty and the rest.
     
    There are plenty of guys out there who are chivalrous and take charge, and also are terrible communicators, cheaters, and abusers.

58. Michael17 58

    Well, this is my take: We all have a right to have things of our lists that we want our potential partner to have even if they don’t “make sense”. I am attracted to a certain physical type and even though I know this rules out plenty of wonderful giving women, it’s what I like. So I can get that women being attracted to a guy who is manly in the traditional sense. It is what it is, and there is no point in trying to justify it out.

59. Rachael 59

    Nathan

    I guess where I take issue is I do not see myself in your words, and I have found a man who embodies all those qualities and more. He is manly, take charge, and resposible. Yet he is loving, affectionate and emotionally expressive. Even better he encourages me to be expressive.

    And the misunderstanding comes from where I say “as if we should throw ourselves….and expect…because we are entitled.”

    I wasn’t really saying YOU said we should do this. More saying you imply that women do this.

60. Rachael 60

    I can see my own miscommunications. 

    The difference between admiration and expectation is a lack of disappointment in the absence of those behaviors.  

    I can honestly say I never thought a man like that existed so I never expected it. But was rather blown away to find it. And it’s not faked to get in my pants that’s for sure. I just happen to have been lucky enough to meet a very good, well rounded man.

    I got defensive. Your posts read as prejudiced…As if those men are imaginary. Created in the minds of expectant, entitled women, and those imaginary ideals ruin it for good men.

    Not so. Men like that exist. Take it or leave it, but they do.

    Doesn’t mean the men who aren’t so well rounded are bad or lesser. Everyone has flaws and acceptance is key.

61. Helen 61

    Whether a man pays for his dining companion is not a “superficial” thing.

    It is a signal – a signal that is important in every aspect of social life, not just romantic relationships. I dated a lot before I got married. Even now I frequently have business meals and meals with friends. If I am the one who initiated, I will always offer to pay everything, because that is only fair. But, with the exception of those cases where I clearly initiated, what I have found is that if a man will not pay – or even worse, when he tries to stick the bill on the woman or pay less than his fair share - that often speaks to a bigger flaw in his character that reveals itself in time.

    Can other people here back me up on this? Let’s count the examples. The project leader who rounds up his group to go out for a meal, orders two entrees when everyone else has just one, and insists on splitting the bill evenly across everyone. The boss who asks out a subordinate, orders far more than her, and then tries to split the bill down the middle with her. The guy who asks a woman out for any reason, and won’t offer to pay for her, or worse, will come up with an excuse to make her pay it all. The guy who resents that he paid for a woman’s meal (despite asking her out) and tries to force her to pay for something else like his after-dinner drink.  The guy who goes out with his friends and is mysteriously never around or looking around aimlessly when it comes time to pay the bill.  The guy who argues till he’s blue in the face about why he should never break out his wallet for a woman – it’s all about “his rights” and “equality,” after all.  Almost without exception, these are the guys who will screw over their colleagues and companions or shirk their duties in some way.

    It’s not just women who lose respect for men like this. It’s men, too. If you think this is not true, go out to a group lunch or dinner. See who offers to pay. Unless the rules have already been set about who’s paying, the true alphas, and the truly decent individuals, will always step up to the plate. The betas will shrink back and never so much as pull out their wallets. Who does everyone respect more? It’s not a female entitlement issue.  It’s a very human, very universal, signal.

    Also, it is a false dichotomy to place “men who don’t pay” in the same category as “men who help with housework,” because I can tell you I am married to a man who always pays and does his fair share of housework. Alphas in the boardroom can be perfectly awesome domestic companions. Sure, it doesn’t always work out that way, but based on all the relationships I’ve seen, there is absolutely no relationship between the degree of alphaness in a man’s character and the extent to which he helps or shirks duties at home.

62. Tom 62

    John
    “one is a manly thing to do, the other is not”
     
    I disagree that going to a gym to do a deadlift or walking lunges is necessarily particularly manly. As Evan said, being a man is more a function of character rather than an ability to do a particular activity. I’m not particularly strong, I can hardly open a car to look at an engine never mind fix it, yet I consider myself extremely ‘manly.’ Where I perceive injustice I will fight it to the nth degree. I have stood in court and testified against those who have wronged me without hesitation – I will not be cowed by intimidation from any individual, institution or state. If I had children I would fight to ensure that they received the best education, health provision and services possible. I respect men who know what they want to achieve in life and then pursue that ambition with dogged determination whilst helping those around them: this is what being a man is about (in my humble opinion).

    Selena
    I find it bizarre that you find a man sexy for reading fiction – maybe that’s because I’ve never read a novel for pleasure in my life though!

    Regarding Heather, Rachael and Nathan discussing chivalry I think we should differentiate between common decency and chivalry. It is fully reasonable for Rachael to feel entitled to “respect, support, loyalty and communication.” I think we all are. Holding doors, helping older people etc. are not behaviours indicative of chivalry rather just common decency and should be done for everyone not just women.  Like Nathan I feel that chivalry (if we assume it in a modern sense of helping women or treating them differently, rather than the traditional code of conduct associated with being a knight!) is an antiquated concept. Women are now our equals and should be treated as such (including paying their fair share Helen; half).

63. Fiona 63

    Helen, I fully agree. Being recognised as an equal means treating someone like their view has equal weight and recognising equality of opportunity. It does not mean treat a woman like you treat another man or vice versa. A man who won’t pay for a first date isn’t getting a second because he has shown me that he doesn’t think I am worth much.  I have no control over where we go or what he orders and therefore no control over the cost. Men should also realise that I might not be buying the dinner but I have probably gone to some effort and expense to look nice. 

64. John 64

    Geez it seems like everyone has differing opinions on what is manly and what isn’t manly. Can we all agree that at least peeing standing up is manly?

65. Lucy 65

     ”But, with the exception of those cases where I clearly initiated, what I have found is that if a man will not pay – or even worse, when he tries to stick the bill on the woman or pay less than his fair share - that often speaks to a bigger flaw in his character that reveals itself in time. ”

    This is very true. My mother told me this. She said that my boyfriend did not spend enough money on me. I dismissed her advice as old-fashioned but now I realise what she was getting at. It wasn’t the fact that money was involved, it was the fact that he didn’t want to do anything for me that would incur cost. He resented the idea of spending money on me. Despite the fact I’m thousands in debt, and he was born with a silver spoon in his mouth, he was reluctant to take me out to dinner and all that kind of couple stuff. Now silly me is in even more in debt because of a spontaneous decision to book a transatlantic flight to visit him in the States.  

    I agree with the above. A man should at least offer to pay, because he can’t be trying that hard to impress me if he wants me to pay the bill. I believe in chivalry. This does not make me anti-feminist. I’m hardened by experiences of dating terrible guys. These men claimed to be feminists and believe in equal treatment but their behaviour showed they have little respect for women. Now I’d rather see the intent behind what a man does, and  you’ve got to judge them on what they do and not what they say.

66. helene 66

    Very interesting thread. The concepts of “manly” and “womanly” used to be clearly defined, and what comes across in this debate is that as society, the workplace and income structures have changed, we now have to redefine what “manly” and “womanly” mean, because biologically they are very important concepts as far as mating/pair-bonding/relationships are concerned. For sexual attraction to develop, (a necessary prerequisite to bonding, relationships and marriage) we need to feel sexually excited by out potential partner, and that part is a biological reaction (intellectual and emotional compatibility play into it, but its a biological reaction) that is based on the differences between men and women. It occurs to me that in a strange way this may be why we have become overly obsessed with physical appearances in recent years- the man with great abs, the woman with huge barbie boobs – the ambiguity over societal roles has led us to seek SOMETHING to classify each other as “manly” or “womanly”. In the past, mens and womens roles were so different that a woman didn’t HAVE to have big boobs to be considered a woman – all women were so obviously womanly in their roles, expectations and behaviours that physical appearance was not the only thing that differentiated us.  Same goes for men. Now, what else do we have??! I think the yearning for chivalry, DIY etc.. stems from this – we need to hang on to the sense that men are men and we need there to be things that mark this out, in some wy or another, in order to feel attracted to them. Does tht mean men should all go hunting or mend toilets just to show us they are men – no, but it means that both sexes feel the need to preceive the manliness or womanliness of their mate in some form or another. If we all sound a bit mixed up and contradictory about this right now, its because we all ARE a bit mixed up.  

    My new man earns a lot less money than I do, but I consider him extremely manly. Why? because he buys me dinner EVEN THOUGH he earns less money than me, because he doesn’t sulk or fret about the income difference, and because he remains very confident in his masculinity and is sexually assertive in the bedroom. He also has a physical job and is very good at fixing things. How do I transmit my “womanliness” to him, despite my high powered job and high income? By dressing femininly, appreciating his efforts, letting him take decisions and drive me places and finding ways to pay for things that he can feel comfortable with. The fact that he is not intimidated by my income or my job make him very manly, in my opinion.

67. Selena 67

    @Helen #61

    Excellent points and examples. I’ll add one: the guy who wants to split the bill evenly amongst his companion(s) when he has ordered more alcoholic beverages (or more expensive ones) than others in his party. Thus he actually pays less of the bill and tip than he would have with separate checks.

    Under-tipping itself can be an issue with some fellows. They chip in 5% of the total bill, making their companions cough up more than their fair share to take care of the server.

    Who’s feeling entitled?

68. Rachael 68

    My original comment was only to say no woman would DISLIKE chivalry. That’s pretty clear, and still true. I never once said it was required or expected. Just that no sane woman would not like it. *knock knock* are you there guys? This blog talks a lot about how women should behave around men, and as soon as I suggest something about how men could behave…It’s all entitlement, expectations and demands for equality! “Chivalry is antiquated!”. Lets pray the BJ’s you love so much never become antiquated…

    Chivalry is not antiquated. Not my idea of it anyway! I’m only learning what it really means in the past year and a half and only because a MAN is showing me…

    Yes, holding doors for anyone, offering your jacket, offering to pay, giving up your seat on the bus, offering to help carry heavy things, offering to return a shopping cart for an elderly woman, asking “do you want or need?”, rubbing a sore back, saying “I love you” without prompting.

    These are not antiquated actions…They are behaviors that speak to the character of a man. No…they are not ALL requirements. Ask yourself why you would argue that it’s too much to think a man embody all these traits?

    Would the man who thinks to return someones shopping cart not think to open a door? Would the man who rubs your back not think to say “I love you” un-prompted? Would the man who snatches away heavy things not think to ask if you  need anything?

     You get my point?

69. SS 69

    “The funny thing is, though, that although some women have these long, contradictory list, they tend to get fixated on things like actions that appear chivalrous, like a guy who always holds doors open or drives you around on dates, or whether men are willing to pay for all the dates and/or schedule and direct all the dates – things that are fairly superficial in the long run.”
     
    Eh, you can speak for yourself on that one…

70. susan 70

    what makes a man manly?  funny…i just blogged on this myself a couple of weeks ago.  Some of my male friends describe others as ”not very manly” and i think they mean they are not ”fixers” or masculine in the tradtional sense.  but for me, manly is it was has kind of disappeared into our new world of IT guys and metrosexuals.  And I don’t think – much like Evan – that is is necessarily a bad thing.  So a guy doesn’t get sweaty, or play football, or build a deck.  The guy who is man enough to say out loud that he loves his wife and kids, that sees his role as provider and protector, that has a firm handshake and a solid sense of honour and integrity (as mentioned so often above) – that’s manly enough for me.

71. Frank 71

    Chivalry is antiquated!”. Lets pray the BJ’s you love so much never become antiquated…

    Women also love oral sex. Another apples to orange.

     

72. Julia 72

    A man paying for a date shows he has interest in a woman, if a man didn’t pay for me when we went out I would know that he was not interested in me. I’ve never gone out with a man who didn’t automatically just pay, there is never even a moment to do the fake wallet grab. Its a basic courtesy that most men are 100% willing to do.

    Likewise, if I showed up to a date without makeup on, with my hair in a ponytail and jeans and a tshirt I would be sending the man I was going out with a very clear message: that I am not trying to impress him. To the men on here complaining about paying (I really do believe you are the minority) how would you feel about a date who didn’t put time into her appearance? Believe it or not, on dates that I am excited about, I will go and get my hair done, maybe get a touch up on my manicure, sometimes I will even buy a pretty dress or earrings. These are also costs women put into dating, does it give you some perspective?

73. Rachael 73

    Frank…You’re not getting the reference. Giving BJ’s is something I have seen pop up on this blog as one of the things women should do to keep men happy.

    It’s not apples to oranges. I’ve never called anyone entitled or expectant for saying “Give him oral sex!”.

    Meh, whatever. Don’t really care if you get it or not.

74. Rachael 74

    I find it kind of sad all these men arguing this…

    “NO! We men should not have to have all those GOOD qualities. Generous actions and behaviors are antiquated! Lower your expectations. Don’t appreciate it when a man does nice things for you. That makes you entitled!!”

    Come off it guys. You don’t even realize how what you’re saying looks….
    Like a lot of whiny little boys who think WHO THEY ARE is not represented by how they treat others.

75. nathan 75

    Am fascinated by how my views have been distorted by a few of you here. Rachael, I never spoke against any of the examples you offer, and I agree that they are indicators of character. I keep an eye out for most of these, or the lack of them, when on dates with women. At the same time, people can and do use these kind of actions as a way to promote a false persona. There are countless stories of women writing about, or commenting about, men who took charge of everything, acted chivalrous, got themselves some sex, and then disappeared or strung their girlfriends along for months on end while dating other women at the same time.
     
    My point is that things like holding doors and paying for dates aren’t, in and of themselves, great signs of character over the long run. They might be worth noting, but it seems like there are still a lot of women who will drop a guy in a hot minute if he doesn’t pony up for dinner, have every detail of the date in order, or forgets to hold the door open for her on the way into a restaurant. As I said before, men have their versions of this kind of behavior. And again, I do think it’s superficial. Some people are so in a rush to find the flaws and push the reject button that they never give anyone a decent chance. They claim to not want to “waste time,” but they end up spending years playing the field because no one measures up.
     
    On the other hand, it’s much more difficult to fake true respect, caring, loyalty, supportiveness, honest communication, and the rest. If you find a lifelong partner, I doubt the thing you’ll most remember and treasure is that he paid for your dinner. It will most like be the continued specific acts of kindness, which may or may not fit into the standard chivalry narrative. Lucy’s story is a good example of a man who didn’t demonstrate these. He had a lot more financially, but was entirely stingy over a longer period of time. But she couldn’t have known this from going on one or two dates with him. Perhaps everything else about him seemed good early on. Or maybe she overlooked a lot of other signs that he wasn’t a good match due to hotness or whatever. The fact that she still is looking for men to “impress” her makes me think it was the latter.
     
    First dates shouldn’t be about putting on a show. And if you want that, you’ll probably continued to get fooled by people who’ll do anything to look good in the short term, but have no intention to be with you over the long term.

76. Fiona 76

    Nathan, first impressions are important because initially they are all we have to go on. I could turn up to a job interview not dressed immaculately, not having done my research, not at my sharpest and say it’s all about the qualifications – after all I know I’m good at what I do. However, it won’t work out too well because I didn’t give the right first impression to the potential employer. It is a bit like that with a date. If a guy wants to show up not making much of an effort and making the woman pay for her half of the date, he might well be a great guy underneath but that isn’t the impression he is giving and that impression is all we have to go on. This isn’t a case of women being superficial – if that is the way a man starts off behaving, I can only assume he is never going to put any effort into me. That doesn’t mean that some people who make good first impressions don’t turn out to be pretty awful partners later on.

77. Tom 77

    Rachael, you are still conflating generosity, respect and decency with chivalry – there is a difference. Most of the examples you offered are just regular examples of ordinary decent behaviour, and relating chivalry to oral sex is just silly.

    Julie
    “I will get my hair done…sometimes buy a dress…these are costs that women put into dating”
    I always find it amusing that women seem to think that men get their hair cut and clothes for free.

    Look, I don’t really want to get into the whole “who should pay” debate because it’s been beaten to death on this blog and others. Nathan is right; it’s so easy to appear like a perfect gentleman that judging someone’s long term potential on these traits is naïve. I’m always impeccably polite, punctual and well-mannered on dates and I will always pay but I only want to get laid so all those “indicators” are irrelevant. I will stand on my head if that’s what it takes to get laid so it’s fairly easy to open a door, pull back a chair etc.

    That’s why in general I feel sorry for women when they are choosing a potential partner – on first impressions it’s almost impossible to know whether a man is serious or not. I can safely assume that when I date a woman there’s a 90% chance it could go further if I wanted – for women the chances are surely lower.

78. SS 78

    Nathan,
    In my dating experience, I found it true that a good “show”, so to speak, didn’t necessarily mean the guy was going to be a long-term quality partner. He could have been the most chivalrous man in the world and still be a terrible person in many other ways.
     
    However, in every good relationship I had, the man did indeed have all of those chivalrous qualities that are being written off as superficial… and the chivalrous men were always more likely to also demonstrate the true respect, caring, loyalty, honest communication and all of those other important qualities you mentioned.
     
    On the other hand, I found that the men who had no interest in showing chivalry from the beginning also had no interest in showing true respect, caring, loyalty and supportiveness either.
     
    So yes, first impressions and chivalrous behavior on early dates have been pretty accurate signals of a man’s overall character. Sure, some of the chivalrous men have behaved poorly in other ways, but none of the non-chivalrous men I dated demonstrated positive qualities in other areas either.
     
    Yep, I’ll keep recommending chivalry as a positive sign… not as the end all, be all, but as an initial positive sign of a man’s overall character.

79. Hope 79

    When I think “manly”, my three immediate thoughts are: integrity; the ability and desire to take charge; and someone physically bigger/stronger than me.

    But I think that what a woman wants in a man can include a lot more than just “manly” things, and if a man satisfies a lot of those “wants”, often he doesn’t have to be as manly to appeal. 
    I’d imagine same goes for a man and what he thinks of as womanly, in comparison to, or in addition to, what he personally wants in a woman.
    I thought one of the most interesting points in the article was the question, “What makes a woman womanly?”  Which led me to wonder….”And how much does it matter how manly a man is, or how womanly a woman is?”  How important is that to attraction?  That’s not a rhetorical question…I am truly interested in pondering that.

80. Fiona 80

    Tom, I don’t really get why guys like you go on dates at all. Surely you can get what you want by picking someone up in a night club? Why bother with the whole dating palaver?

81. Mia 81

    I’ve always been jealous of men and wished I was one because masculinity is superior to feminity, according to the traditional definitions. At least when men want to be more attractive to the opposite sex, they can do things that are positive beyond merely dating, things that are exciting and interesting and have value, like starting companies, making money, traveling, learning to do stuff. A woman’s only value is being pretty and receptive and having sex and babies, according to traditional feminine standards, and nowadays most men don’t even care too much about the cooking part. I mean, really? Men also get to “choose,” they get to win someone over, they get to have sex with no consequences, they can build a great life and not worry about settling down, ever, and they’re less emotionally needy! Damn, I want to be a man so badly.

82. Selena 82

    SS # 78

    “Sure, some of the chivalrous men have behaved poorly in other ways, but none of the non-chivalrous men I dated demonstrated positive qualities in other areas either.”

    You are not the only woman to find that to be true.

83. Hope 83

    I wrote my previous post before reading everybody’s debate on paying for dates, etc.  I think that the asker should offer to pay the whole date. That’s just good manners. 
    My boyfriend always pays– he also earns five times as much as me and is the “asker” 9 out of 10 times.  Having said that, from date one, I have always offered to pay the tip, as one of my many small ways of showing my gratitude.  He usually accepts this offer, which makes me feel good.  If I suggest we go to a movie I want to see, I offer to pay.  If I offer to make him dinner, I go and buy the groceries at Whole Foods, and pick up dessert, too– without a second thought, of course. 
    Tom, women are fully aware that most men just want to get laid.  All too aware: )    Maybe that’s why we’re so alarmed if a man doesn’t have the good sense to pull out his wallet at the end of the date.  If he’s not smart enough to realize that paying for the date is going to improve his chances of getting laid, then he’s probably not even worth it for the sex, let alone any type of future : D
    Joking aside, I guess I sort of have a foot in both the men’s and the women’s arguments in this thread.  I think good manners are universally appealing in both genders….I also think that some things we think of as “simply good manners” also have assumptions about gender roles built right into them.  We think of manners as “common courtesy” but they are very steeped in gender-biased cultural tradition and they take a looong time to change.

84. nathan 84

    I feel like there are a lot of conflicting definitions of “chivalry” being floated around here. If chivalry means demonstrating kindness, giving full attention on dates, being willing to lift something heavy if needed, getting up for a person in obvious need of a seat – then I’m all for that. I honestly don’t understand how anyone reading my comments could think otherwise.
     
    However, when those behaviors get conflated with things like paying for all or most of the dates, being expected to take charge and have everything planned all or most of the time, and gestures like pushing in a woman’s chair (which often come off as trying too hard) – that’s where I am in disagreement. SS brings up personal experience. Well, in my experience, the women where I had to do all the work, where a major amount of chasing was involved, really weren’t interested. It’s always been the case for me that when a woman was genuinely interested, she stepped up quickly and began sharing the paying for dates, offering acts of kindness, calling, etc. Like Tom, I’m entirely bored with the paying for first date discussion, but I do think that once you move beyond that, it really should be more of a shared experience. And not just financially. I know that doesn’t fly with some of the women here, and certainly some men are all over taking charge and staying in charge. But others of us aren’t. Men are diverse in that way – go figure.
     
    I love Hope’s questions in 79, especially the idea that being manly or womanly isn’t the only thing behind attraction. 
     
    Fiona, if a man otherwise impressed you, was kind, attentive, funny, etc. but didn’t want to pay for the whole first date, would you still reject him? I agree with you that first impressions are important, but I think a good first impression can come in many forms. It’s kind of sad how some women still zero in on money spent as the major indicator of a man’s interest. I say that because whenever the topic comes up, more than a few of you on every dating forum will fight tooth and nail to explain how important it is that a guy pays for the date. Just as there are more than a few men that will fight tooth and nail to explain how important it is that a woman is a 9 or a 10 in the looks department.
     
    One last point. I think a lot of people – regardless of gender – forget how different online dating and blind dating in general are from what most of our parents, grandparents, and ancestors did in the past. Going on a date with someone in the past usually meant being tied to an intricate set of social connections. You were connected through peers. The parents of both daters sometimes knew each other. Perhaps you were both part of the same spiritual community. Anyway, there was a stronger sense of urgency around treating the other person well on a date, even if nothing came of it. Because if you didn’t, it could quickly burn your reputation. This, coupled with the fact that men were the breadwinners and were expected to be in control of relationships, brought about a lot of what is considered chivalrous behavior. Obviously, plenty of people still experience these kinds of social webs when dating. But with online dating and other forms that bring strangers together, the dynamic is different. You are often total strangers. More than half the time, you’ll never see each other again. And because it’s so easy to share horror stories and publicly rant about all the things people dislike about each other these days, any little thing can and sometimes is used as an excuse for rejection. Not because it’s a sound reason, but because people are strangers grasping at straws. They can’t go to the friend who introduced them, or the people in the community that know them to suss out any back-story. So, I get it why some of these things are being used as indicators. I just don’t think they are as great of indicators for long term success as some of you think.
     
    At the end of the day, with online dating and blind dating, going on a single date with someone only gives you a tiny slice of information. Unless someone is totally off, it really is mostly a gut decision whether or not you decide to go out again. How much can you truly know about a stranger after a few hours together? And how much can they know about you?

85. Helen 85

    I agree with SS.  A man who pays for a first date (and subsequent dates) is not necessarily a keeper – but for sure, he has a much better chance of being one than the fellow who asks the woman out then refuses to pay for her.  A guy who has no interest in showing chivalry from the beginning is emphatically not a keeper.  Experience has borne this out again and again.

    Where’s Lance, who used to post here?  I can just imagine him writing a post in his blog directed to those guys who argue up and down that they shouldn’t pay for the woman - some nice round rejoinder about how to man it up.

86. Rachael 86

    Tom

    I did not compare bj’s to chivalry. I made reference to how we are on a blog focused mainly on advising women how to behave. All I said was that a woman wouldn’t dislike chivalry and suddenly we’re going off about expectations. 

    The comparison is in expectations. I don’t want to be told i’m acting “entitled” to state some nice behaviors I appreciate.

    When the purpose of this site is to tell me what nice behaviors men appreciate. 

    I don’t have my head in the clouds gentlemen. I’m not about to get played and I don’t have an epic expectations list. I have 1 ex-husband and 1 current boyfriend. No other exes, but I have dated plenty. I have no problem seeing people for who they are.

    I am here to learn how to be a better partner and that’s it. It’s just irritating to be lumped in and at this point, used as the example for expectant women.

87. Jason 87

    I consider myself a manly man. I fix anything and do everything myself. From lawncare and gardening to home construction, from fixing cars to making a cat tree, there isn’t much I’d hire out. Here’s the rub though, I don’t want a dainty wimpy chick, I want a damn real woman. If you can’t stand being out of the A/C for 15 minutes, or getting dirt under your nails, then I don’t want you, you would be better matched with one of those “metrosexuals” as you call them. Don’t get me wrong, I clean up well, but if a woman whines that I’m always working on the car or doing other projects, she can hit the road.

    Want a real man? Be a real woman.

88. Nathan 88

    There has to be some regional, class, and perhaps political differences going on here. I don’t run into the level of emphasis on men paying and chivalry amongst the lower middle class, liberal/ progressive Midwestern women I know and go on dates with. Not to say that it never comes up, but certainly not to the level I see online – especially with New Yorkers and some big city Southerners.

89. Mia 89

    Nathan, thank goodness there are men out there like you who realize the fallacy in trying to be with a girl when there’s a major amount of chasing involved. It’s one of my biggest frustrations with men – I’m pretty independent minded and have a full life, and don’t chase men down or anything, but at the same time I don’t like the idea of having to be some “challenge” for a man to appreciate me. I’m also pretty mixed about this whole “let the guy do everything” attitude. I really do like and need that in the first couple weeks/month  … after that, I know that there is something wrong if I don’t feel comfortable calling the guy once in awhile and falling into a more natural back and forth.

    I’ve also come to understand that it’s perfectly fine for a woman to initiate contact with a guy she’s seeing but isn’t yet her boyfriend – as long as a.) there is no below the belt fooling around/sex, and b.) as long as it’s clear that she has a fun, active, full life and isn’t desperate. I think I’m also done with guys trying to woo me over bar and dinner dates – it’s just so stilted. I’ve started hanging out with a guy who so far has invited me to go rock climbing, kayaking, and to the shooting range, and I can tell you it’s a huge relief to be with someone who doesn’t date the stereotypical way and shares my interests. He didn’t call me for a few days, so I just called him up, he was happy to hear from me, we talked for awhile, and when I mentioned this random weird work thing I had to do at a downtown club at 1.30 in the morning, he asked if he could go with me and we could make a fun night out of it. This kind of dynamic feels a lot more likely to lead to something real than the traditional guy-makes-all-the-moves-and-wines-and-dines-girl-over-dinner-to-try-to-get-in-her- pants bullshit.

90. Rachael 90

    Maybe my idea of chivalry is off?

    I don’t consider paying a bill chivalrous…I consider it very generous. I’m happy enough to pay for my own damn self. I prefer a home cooked meal anyways. Eating out is too expensive. Blowing money is not on my “to do” list. I’m more of an adventurous experience kind of girl. Not a wine me and dine me type.  I want to know if a man is my kind of person, not if he’s willing to pay for my company.

91. Paragon 91

    @ Heather
     
    “@ ThatsWhyYoureSingle,
    Spot on.  I’m noticing that too.  Alot more bitchy, nasty, bitter men are coming online, calling names, etc.”
     
    I agree with your assessment that they are bitter.
     
    But, why do you suppose that is? 
     
    @ LC
     
    “Women don’t like players, but it’s not like the guy is honest with you and says, “I’m just going to pretend to like you until sleep with me.  I’m going to pump and dump you.”  If women were informed that his buying flowers, drinks, taking you to dinner, spending time with you, calling you on the phone, texting, etc. were just a means to get you into bed and then disappear, there would be a whole lot less sex going on.”
     
    Would there?
     
    Any woman who has early/easy sex with an attractive prospect, can’t genuinely claim to be hindered by rational foresight.
     
    @ Nathan
     
    “Women say they want men who are more vulnerable, open about their emotions, willing to share the household chores, etc. Yet, when men step up and embrace some of this, they’re labeled unmanly, weak, and sensitive.”
     
    I have observed that this merely tends to be a pretext explanation, for rejecting men for whom they feel no sexual chemistry.
     
    - @ John
     
    “Now I must say I am impressed you can do those particular exercises. Besides the good shape you must be in to that, I am equally impressed with the fact that you know how effective those exercises are. So many people waste so much time in the gym doing the most inefficient exercises. If people focused on the bigger bang for your buck exercises like I mentioned, they workouts woul dbe far more productive.”
     
    High intensity cardio has given me a new appreciation for rigor – an hour of max intensity stairclimbing(apparently impossible for the majority of male gym-rats, who appear to be ecto-mesomorphs whose physiques resemble competitive swimmers, only with chicken legs), 5 days a week impresses me more than any feat in the weight-room.

    My 400 lb bench press, and 500 lb shrugs seem trivial by comparison.
     
    @ Helene
     
    “For sexual attraction to develop, (a necessary prerequisite to bonding, relationships and marriage)”
     
    Mutual sexual attraction, traditionally, has not been a requirement for long-terms relationships. 
     
    Rather, sexual chemistry was(and in many cultures still is) a frequent trade-off that women were expected to make, in securing a long term mate – the reason being, that women are so selective in terms of sexual chemistry, as to render an insoluble scarcity of males to satisfy this requirement under assumptions of a monogamous mating system.
     
    Female sexual liberation(where they are no longer economically dependent on their mates), has engendered in effected female populations a kind of romantic ideal, that, for many, will be impossible to realize.
     
    And it is these kinds of unrealistic expectations that form the basis for much of the prevailing conflict between the sexes in the Western world.
     
    ” It occurs to me that in a strange way this may be why we have become overly obsessed with physical appearances in recent years- the man with great abs, the woman with huge barbie boobs – the ambiguity over societal roles has led us to seek SOMETHING to classify each other as “manly” or “womanly”.
     
    The difference, of course, is that boobs are a secondary sexual characteristic(of the female sex), while six pack abs are not a uniquely male trait(have you been watching the olympics – plenty of females sporting six pack abs there).
     
    In fact, rather than as a reliable indication of fitness, the ability to display six-pack abs signifies one quality alone – a tendency towards lean body mass(which can be a distinct disadvantage in many evolutionary contexts, where energy requirements are high, but supply is low).
     
    @ Rachael
     
    “My original comment was only to say no woman would DISLIKE chivalry. That’s pretty clear, and still true. I never once said it was required or expected. Just that no sane woman would not like it. *knock knock* are you there guys?”
     
    I think it is obvious that women appreciate chivalrous behavior.
     
    What is not so obvious, is how they encourage that behavior – if they can be seen to be privileging unchilvalrous players, above chivalrous nice guys, then they are communicating a very clear message that ‘chivalry’ is not a strong determinant in their mating/relationship choices.
     
    It occurs that the kinds of men women say they want, and the kinds of men they choose, are frequently different quantities(these differences have seen the ascendance of the game culture, which observes that chivalry has been devalued, not by men, but by women ).
     
    In this sense, women are selecting for ‘unchivalrous’ behavior.
     
    Am I personally chivalrous?
     
    Yes.
     
    But, I am also selective in reserving that chivalry for women are are not representative of a female culture that devalues it.

92. Fiona 92

    Nathan, the only two times in my life that a man made me pay for my half of a first date they later turned out to be really mean with money. If they were struggling financially this would have perhaps been understandable but one earned three times  my salary and the other was the son of a millionaire so I agree with Helen. It is a big alarm bell.

93. Fiona 93

    Nathan, I am also wondering if some women are rejecting you for second dates in your region because you don’t pay. If that is the case, she is unlikely to tell you or create a scene. She is likely just to decide she doesn’t want to see you again.

94. David T 94

    @ Mia81
     Men also get to “choose,” they get to win someone over,
    Men get to set their hearts on someone and then be rejected (and then someone else, and then someone else, etc.) This is no picnic.
     
    they get to have sex with no consequences,
    Women can too…it is called the diaphram or the birth control pill.
    
    
    [Men] can build a great life and not worry about settling down, ever,
    Why can’t a woman do this? If a man does not want to have children, he does not have to. If a woman does not want to have children, she does not have to.
     
    and they’re less emotionally needy
    
    I see the word “needy” used so much in so many different ways that its meaning here is not clear. Do you mean men don’t become lonely or frustrated when a woman they are interested in does not reciprocate?  They do.  Just some don’t let it wreck their lives.  I think there are many women who do the same.

95. Tom 95

    Yeh that’s what I do Fiona; its just now and again I meet someone there I’d like to see again – that’s when I have to go through the whole dating rigmarole (don’t worry I don’t date innocent women I meet in libraries). 

    In general I find it amusing the way women pick and choose what their definition of equality is, and define “manly” as being chivalrous or some other behaviour reminiscent of men from a previous era. Hope (#83) earns a lot less than her boyfriend so he pays for most of their dates, whereas Helene (#66) earns a lot more than her new man but he still pays for most of their dates, just so he feels manly? Come on ladies, this has nothing to do with being manly or not.

    Most of the women I meet are actually more than happy to pay their fair share, so I’m surprised with some of the comments here. Nathan’s right; it must be a regional thing. 

    Yes Mia, being a man is great (although not so much when we’re younger).

96. Lucy 96

    I certainly have my head screwed on and I wouldn’t fall for the wrong man because I’m impressed by chivalry. All I expect is for the guy to pay on the first date and to hold doors open for me and to carry heavy things I cannot manage on my own. I am definitely very real about this  - holding my seat out and walking alongside the kerb is extra and unexpected. 

    I’m British and I’ve noticed that most British men do not practice chivalry, at least not in the way Americans do. The American men I know are much more into chivalry. I read Evan’s tips and I wonder how likely it is that they’ll apply across the pond.  

    I would like the guy to be respectful. Most men who’ve bought me dinner and drinks have done it in a vain effort to get into my knickers. But I can’t be bought. On the other hand, one of my friends is into chivalry and he is nothing less than very respectful around women. He’s actually one of the most respectful men I have met, and more respectful than the guys I know who claim that they don’t do chivalry because they respect women. Some men dislike chivalry because they hate the idea of making an effort to woo a woman and think that equality of the sexes entitles them to sit back and wait for women to ask them out. That says more about their insecurities than it does about women. Unfortunately those men are everywhere.

97. Clare 97

    @ Tom # 77

    “I can safely assume that when I date a woman there’s a 90% chance it could go further if I wanted – for women the chances are surely lower.”

    I’m pretty sure I’ve rejected just as many guys as have rejected me. I think it’s been said on this blog that men and women reject each other in more or less equal proportion.

98. Selena 98

    Seems to me the issue of paying for dates works itself out early on. If someone invites you to join them at the venue of their choice – you either accept or decline.  If they make it clear when the bill is presented they expect you to pay your own way -  you know right then what they are about. If you are comfortable with that arrangement, you continue to accept their invitations. If you are NOT comfortable with that arrangement, you decline any subsequent invitations from them.

    Not sure why we get so riled up about this on the internet, when in practice we all know what we are and are not comfortable with and proceed accordingly.

99. Helen 99

    Nathan and Mia: You’ve both made interesting points here, so let me respond to each.

    Nathan: My concern is that you’re beginning to take this personally, although our comments (at least mine) certainly aren’t meant personally, because we don’t know you. My comments are based on observation of the people I know. It isn’t a regional thing as you posit. I am from the same part of the US as you, although I’ve lived in large west-cost and east-coast metropolises. 

    What I have found, consistently, is that a guy who will not pay even when he asks a woman out is not a keeper. He can claim all he wants that it’s because he believes in equal rights for women, but seriously? Give me a break. When he decides not to pay for the woman, it is NOT to benefit the woman by “equal rights.” It’s to benefit himself - to save himself a few bucks.

    Evan has advised men to pay for first dates here, giving the reason that it’s more effective to secure good relationships. He doesn’t go further than that; his advice is practical rather than philosophical.  If I could try to explain WHY a non-paying man is not a good bet for woman (and not a good bet for friendships or leadership either), it’s because of selfishness. Whether you’re skimping on paying on a date or in a group setting, it gives the clear signal: “I don’t care about you. I’m not going to put myself out for you. I’m more interested in myself. My rights. My resources. Me.” 

    Why isn’t a woman attracted to that?  Because a long-lasting relationship requires A LOT of putting oneself out for the other person and for family members.  Constantly, ungrudgingly, year after year.  If a guy can’t be arsed to do it on a first date, he’s just not a great candidate for this sort of self-giving that is required of both parties in an LTR. He is also not a great candidate for friendship or leadership, for these same reasons.

    Mia: I, too, wish it could be the sort of world where the women who enjoy pursuing can be free to pursue in the way men do. I think you can, but that it will be more difficult; because there may not be that many guys who are willing to be pursued, and because society has given multiple messages about how the men should pursue and the women should not. Let’s face it: pursuing IS fun. Not just to win over a guy, but to get anything you want. But always keep in the back of your mind that the best way to get what you want is to be effective, not pursuing in the way you necessarily want to.

100. Selena 100

     @ Helen #99

     Not very comfortable being the “trouble-maker” here, but… Evan actually has written, “If she doesn’t INSIST on paying on the forth date – DUMP HER”.

101. nathan 101

     Helen, this insistence on men paying for the first date is going to fade, at least to some extent. It’s already dying amongst certain segments. Given education trends, changing work patterns, gender role shifts and the rest, the idea that a man proves himself through money spent isn’t going to hold water. Might be practical for many folks now, but I don’t believe that will be the case in the future.
      
     Secondly, men are expected to ask women out, and do so probably 90% of the time. The whole who asks, pays thing is a trope women use to justify not sharing the bill. 
      
     Thirdly, I notice that when men push back on some subjects, especially money, they get accused of all sorts of things. including being cheap, uncaring, ungiving, and unromantic. All these judgments based on a single date. Women routinely complain about being judged harshly, and dealing with all kinds of nonsense from some men on and after first dates. But some of you seem to dish it out just as much, if not more. You might not do it to our faces, but the digital world is filled with scathing comments and articles by women about how terrible, weak, whiny, cheap, and unromantic men are these days. Having spent a bit of time trolling MRA and PUA sites, the men that come here are far and away more reasonable and respectful. I’m all for a good debate, and sometimes I am flat out wrong. If you actually read through my comments, it’s fairly often the case that something in a rebuttal makes sense to me, and I shift accordingly. But when something as simple as paying or not paying becomes grounds for all sorts of speculations about a man’s character, I call bullshit. I like the way Selena 98 puts it: do whatever arrangement is most comfortable to you. No unfounded judgments. No need to agree to continue something you don’t want to do.
      
     Fiona, I honestly don’t go on many first date dinners these days. Some of it is simple economics, but more of it is actually the fact that I think other ways are more conducive to getting to know someone better. Coffee dates. Going for walks. Visiting museums. Outdoor festivals. There are so many no cost or low cost ways to meet up, many of which allow more freedom in terms of what you are doing. I get plenty of second dates. I have had my share of short term and long term relationships. In fact, I spent most of my 20s trying to fulfill that “traditional” male role. And ended up single and chasing for over half that decade. Whereas, in late 20s and 30s, I’ve done a more mixed approach and have had much more success. That’s why I offer the ideas that I do because I don’t believe there is one way – or even a best way – to approach dating these days.
      
     People like to think they’ve got the truth pinned down, but that’s just a fantasy. All we have are guideposts and markers that help us weed out certain people, but really aren’t the things that determine who’s a best match. Evan wasn’t 100% sure about his wife when he decided to take the plunge. I think that’s the case for most of us, in dating and in deciding to stay with someone, whether we like it or not.

102. SS 102

     Nathan,
     My background is completely Midwestern (born in one Midwestern state, now live in another). I grew up in a large urban blue collar city and now live in a smaller urban blue collar city. I’d probably be considered middle income, but not lower income. I consider myself centrist, although leaning more left than right. I was probably more liberal in my younger years, but still 95% likely to vote for the D over the R.
     I dated across the political spectrum, but found I had the most in common with center-right types rather than staunch liberals or staunch conservatives, Husband describes himself as a centrist leaning more right than left. He’s very progressive on social issues (gay rights, etc.) and more conservative on fiscal ones.
      
     Don’t know if any of that has to do with my opinions on chivalry, but that’s my background.
      
     And I will co-sign Helen’s point in #99. She expounded more on what I was trying to say. The interesting thing is, when I was dating (again, in the Midwest), every guy but one who asked me out paid for the date. Even if the date was just coffee, the effort was appreciated. The one who didn’t pay didn’t ask me out again, and I didn’t bother to contact him again. That was about six years ago, and I see him on Facebook a lot… his writing comes off as very “progressive,” liberal and open-minded, but I remember the date being a disaster (long before the check came) because all he did was complain about his life, his family, his mental health and other things. I wasn’t at all surprised that he then began to split the check down the middle when it arrived.

103. Henriette 103

     @Helen99 -  Like you, I agree with parts of Mia81′s post; I sometimes find myself envious of men in the dating world.  However, it’s not bc I long to be the pursuer.  I just wish that I were of the gender where the fact that I have stayed out of debt, paid for my house in full and give 10% of my charity made me more desirable than if I were 20 pounds lighter.  I wish that being hilarious made me more attractive than a person who sits back and only laughs at others’ jokes.  And I wish that having fine character counted for more than having a fine tush.  
     When I look at the kind of qualities I most admire in people (of either sex) – courage! integrity! personal responsibility! intelligence! – they are the traits that win men points in the dating world and don’t help women’s success one bit.  This is why I sometimes find myself envying guys.
     However, I know that the reality is very much as Evan tells it: that men look for hot women who are receptive and make them feel good about themselves.  And, I even see it in long-term partnerships; the marriages which seem happiest decades in are the ones in which the wives keep their girlish figures and make their husbands feel needed rather than just wanted.   The woman’s character, accomplishments, mental health and even ability to speak her husband’s language fluently are secondary.  I am trying to learn to resign myself to this truth rather than simply chafe against it.

104. Clare 104

     @ Helen # 99

     You put it beautifully. That is exactly what I was going to say in regard to the whole chivalry debate. Chivalry, like manners, doesn’t come naturally, it’s a learned behaviour that is for the benefit and comfort of the other person. It is somewhat superficial, but that doesn’t mean it has no value. Much like the girl who smiles warmly and laughs delightedly at her date’s jokes.

     As time goes on and you become more comfortable with one another, much of this will fade and give way to more substantial demonstrations of caring.

     In the early stages of dating, it’s *all* superficial.  But the whole of a relationship is about some self-sacrifice and the comfort of the other person. Chivalry does show, albeit superficially, that you’re willing and able to do this. Being too wrapped up in equality and every man for himself does, I fear, miss the point a bit.

105. Rachael 105

     nathan

     well said. We may not be on the same page but we are back to back.

     In fact…My bf didn’t start paying for my share occasionally until after he asked me to be his gf.

     Well that’s not entirely true. A couple concerts he wanted to go to he just bought my ticket and then invited me. I did buy all my own drinks at those shows. Those were expensive shows and something he wanted to do and he wanted company. He knew I would probably decline buying a ticket because they weren’t really my kind of music.

     Anyways…Everyone is different. Really seriously choosing a partner is all about who the person is. Do you enjoy their company? Are they honest, respectful (respect and honesty go hand in hand in my mind), considerate? Does that person value you? Do you value that person. The list goes on.

106. Rachael 106

     Thinking about this now…My attitude towards all that stuff is most likely why he wanted me around so much.

     Knowing him as well as I do now i’d wager he payed for everything for a lot of women and got burnt out by the time we met.

     I rember thinking he was an odd duck because he was so generous with everything but money…

107. Tom 107

     Clare
     Yes you’re correct – I’m sure both genders reject each other equally. I phrased that point poorly. I meant that I reckon there’s a 90% chance the woman I’m on a date with is actually serious about looking for a relationship. I might still be rejected, but at least men don’t have to worry about wasting their time with female ‘players’ and such. Women don’t necessarily have the same comfort (I have no statistical evidence to back up this point though so I might be wrong).
      
     Mia, Helen and Henriette
     I agree that it’s unfortunate that women can’t really pursue men. It’s not that you can’t (you can) – it’s that it puts you in a fatally weak position regarding establishing how a guy really feels about you. I’ve been asked out by a few women and I’ve gone along for the novelty but mainly for the hope of easy sex, because I already know she likes me.
      
     I’m with Nathan on this one. I’m surprised and saddened that normally balanced and reasonable posters (I’m looking at you Helen) are so unreasonable when it comes to paying their way. Women in their 20’s are now better educated and earn more money than their male peers (something I support btw) so it’s entirely unreasonable to expect men to pay for everything and judge him if he doesn’t. I’m only looking for balance (i.e. pay your fair share). Despite all of our progression as a society it stills looks like women want the traditional male role which is contradictory and disappointing. As a society we will have to accept that the definition of “manly” has changed and doesn’t include being your personal ATM.
      
     We should all practice good manners and respect, but chivalry is a relic of the past.

108. Paragon 108

     @ Henriette
      
     “@Helen99 –  Like you, I agree with parts of Mia81′s post; I sometimes find myself envious of men in the dating world.  However, it’s not bc I long to be the pursuer.  I just wish that I were of the gender where the fact that I have stayed out of debt, paid for my house in full and give 10% of my charity made me more desirable than if I were 20 pounds lighter.”
      
     All things being equal, they do make you more desirable.
      
     On the other hand, women are no less critical of overweight men(assuming the extra weight is fat), than men are of overweight women.
      
     “When I look at the kind of qualities I most admire in people (of either sex) – courage! integrity! personal responsibility! intelligence! – they are the traits that win men points in the dating world and don’t help women’s success one bit.”
      
     They don’t help men’s success any more than women’s, because while these may be desirable traits, they are nonetheless infrequent determinants of mate choice.

109. Fiona 109

     Fair enough Nathan. If it works for you, it works. In my generation and country I was brought up to believe girls shouldn’t chase boys and boys should pay for the first date and so were the boys so that’s dating convention – nothing to do with women trying to welch out of paying half and everything to do with courtship rituals. Also if someone asks me to a really expensive restaurant, I assume they are trying to impress me and have the means to pay for it rather than me having to ask up front – hey are you going to make me pay half because I don’t want to spend that much on food which would be awkward. If they ask me where I want to go I usually suggest pizza not because I particularly like pizza but I don’t know what their budget is and don’t want to cause them financial issues.

110. miskwa 110

     I do not think that the problem is that man aren’t manly so much as many (and unfortunately women too) no longer act with respect and integrity. It doesn’t matter how long a man spends at the gyn (except for his keeping fit and healthy of course which is also necessary) if he will not help you with projects around the home, lift stuff that weighs more than I do, etc. I see this behavior a lot more in the West than I did at home in the far north. If someone needed help, you kept your word, showed up on time with work gloves, tools in hand, and stick with it till the job’s done. In the west, it took a male friend a month to show up to help cut wood. A colleague who promised to help me move a heavy piece of furniture when i was injured didn’t show up three times and didn’t bother to call. I didn’t ask for help; he had volunteered his services. What’s up with that? Yeah, Evan, i understand that men want to feel needed; that’s great. That means they have to keep promises, be present, and show up. Otherwise we women will write them off. I also find manners manly and no, manners should not be a superficial thing, manners should be an integral part of the person, there all the time. I think that men ought to pay for that first date. Why? It shows that they, hopefully, have some measure of financial stability. In my rural area, that’s an important think to find out from the get go. I understand that folks are out of work these days; there’s a recession on. When I was in financial distress, and I there a lot in my younger days, I made getting out of that situation a priority rather than dating.
     Some earlier posts referred to women being attracted to players: more likely it is that men that are sucessful players tend to be far more attractive looking and yep, fit, healthy, attractive men are going to attract more women as these men, biologically and instinctively, look like much better mates than a man obviously in bad shape. As someone who was greatly humiliated by a player a year ago, I can tell you all that some of these guys are really, really, good at what they do and often do not give off red flags till your’e highly emotionally invested. Overall, manly means integrity, words, actions, and emotions are in line with one another, and treat others with respect. Kinda what we all should be doing, eh?

111. miskwa 111

     Sorry for the abysmal spelling in the previous post; hard to type on a smartphone

112. helen32 112

     Here is what stands out for me:  ”To be fair, I’ve heard the lamentations from women about men losing their masculinity; those same women better take a good look in the mirror about how they’ve lost their femininity. You can’t have it both ways. If you prefer a world where men are the he-man type, then you must advocate for a world where women are the docile and helpless type.”  You miss the point.  Men refuse to do the work of a traditional role, but retain the power, control, entitlement and superiority.  Who picks up the slack?  Somebody has to pay the mortgage and get the car fixed, right?  What is expected is that the women have to do the traditionally masculine work in place of the men, plus fulfill the feminine role, and still give credit to the men for being “superior”.  And look hot while the men let themselves go.  
     *I* didn’t make these “men” refuse to be responsible adults, they came to me that way.  When I look in the mirror I see someone completely unvalued yet doing all the work.  
     What is a “man” nowadays?  Wasn’t there a comment somewhere about a couch potato watching ice road truckers?  That is the best you can get.  I didn’t MAKE this happen, I didn’t tell anyone “no- you just sit there and gain 50# while I manage both my life and yours and cater to your every whim, grateful to have a man for as long as he is willing to use me”. 
     My parents did not say “oh, its a girl.  She better be super attractive and hot and sexy and do everything to please her man or she won’t nab a husband we can really love” although I feel more certain that this is what Mr. Katz thinks about his own offspring.   Women didn’t create this laziness and false entitlement, men did.  I was not alive in the 60′s, it is not my fault yet I have to pay the price for it.  NO man I have dated has ever even offered to help with a traditionally male role (nor known how) but has expected me to do so for HIM.  The subjugation of women has progressed from being domestic objects to being mommy and daddy and hooker and mechanic and baby machine and nanny and handyman and financier for undeveloped “entitled” so-called men.
     Any additional help I need gets hired out or comes from my female friends, women who also know how to fix their own cars and appliances, are highly educated, cultured, and -shocker- are also very attractive, but not to men who want a crazy chick they can blame for all their own shortcomings.  You know, the “docile and helpless type”.

113. Laya 113

     The different arguments aside, I have to wonder if there is a larger phenomenon going on. Are men falling behind in core areas of society? College enrollments are more women than men now. I just read a NYTimes article about the growing number of stay-at-home fathers (nothing wrong with that). And the latest at the Olympics…US women topped the men both in gold medals won (29 to 17) and overall medals earned (58 to 45). Is this a trend? I genuinely feel sad if it is. I hope these are not harbingers for the future of our husbands, boyfriends, sons and fathers.

114. Hope 114

     Nathan #100,
     “Secondly, men are expected to ask women out, and do so probably 90% of the time. The whole who asks, pays thing is a trope women use to justify not sharing the bill. ”
     Do you REALLY believe that?  The very website we are having this debate on– which is founded by a very contemporary man– urges women to let men take the lead because men WANT to.  I for one believe that is true in most cases.  Would you really feel right to let a woman ask YOU to a romantic dinner, pick up the bill, and drive you home?  And call you a few days later to invite you to a movie followed by a romantic drink?  I’d think YOU’D want to be the one winning her, not being won by her.  If that’s not true of you, no judgement there, but I don’t think it’s wrong for women to believe men want to do the asking, especially when so many men (just not in this particular thread) are saying so.
     Secondly, I stand by my previously-stated affirmation that it is right and good for the asker to pay the whole date.  Whether it’s a man asking a woman out romantically or a girl asking a gal pal to accompany her to a special place for lunch…if it’s any sort of a specific invitation, the asker ought to pay.  If you don’t have much money or don’t want to spend much before knowing how you feel about the girl, there’s plenty of ways you can make a date romantic and memorable without spending much.
     Tom #95- I didn’t say my boyfriend was manly because he paid for my dates.  I said it was good manners, because he’s the one who asked me.  Nor do I think he is “more of a man” because he earns more.  In fact, I’m coming out more on the men’s side than you’re acknowledging….I’m saying it’s NOT chivalrous or “manly” but simply good manners, not to mention quite savvy, for a man to pay.

115. Helen 115

     Clare 103 got it totally right here: “the whole of a relationship is about some self-sacrifice and the comfort of the other person. Chivalry does show, albeit superficially, that you’re willing and able to do this. Being too wrapped up in equality and every man for himself does, I fear, miss the point a bit.”

     Well, almost all right. ;) I’d say, the whole of a long-term relationship is about a LOT of self-sacrifice.  Guys, you don’t have to be in an LTR; I’m certainly not going to judge you if you’re not, or don’t want one. But if an LTR is what you want, then you would do well to start paying attention to what makes your partner comfortable and happy, rather than keeping on insisting upon your rights and ideals. For an LTR to work, you will find yourself sacrificing your “rights” again and again… and again.

     An LTR isn’t all pleasant. It’s not going to be all about you and what makes you happy. It’s not all philosophical and political ideals either; it’s about practicality and what works. The best LTRs are about both partners being considerate of the others’ wants and needs.  If you cannot give up your ideals enough to pay for a woman when you ask her out (heck, I pay for a woman when I ask her out), then you may not be ready for the types of sacrifices that are necessary for an LTR.  LTRs are about sacrifice from the moment the commitment is made, and especially if children are involved.  

     I know this doesn’t sound romantic. But if you want to live with or work closely with another person, compromise and a willingness to make it work – even when it costs you – are essential.  The good news is that giving to others is a practice that can be learned, and can get easier with time. Why not start with something simple like showing you value your companion by paying for her? You needn’t learn it if you are fine being single and having lots of acquaintances rather than close family or friends.  But when you find someone with whom you want to be close… I think of Evan’s advice which he offered in the form of a question. “Is it better to be right, or to be happy?”

116. Henriette 116

     I know it was a simple typo, Miskwa, but it did make me chuckle to read, “It doesn’t matter how long a man spends at the gyn…”  Yeah, just what we need: men who are so confused about gender roles that they end up in our gynecologists’ waiting rooms!

117. Helen 117

     Henriette and Miskwa: I noticed the same thing (men spending time at the gyn), and broke out in a rueful laugh. 

     I’m a woman, and repeatedly offer to pay when I ask a woman or a man to a meal. After all, I’m requesting their time and company. I can’t understand the guys who get their knickers all in a twist about extending this same courtesy to the women they ask out – for ROMANTIC purposes, for crying out loud, not work. Instead, they try to make it all about “equality: pay your own way.” Uh, no, it’s about the fact that you specifically requested a person’s time, effort, and company. Under the circumstances, it’s simple decency to pay.

     Don’t let ideologies – especially self-directed ones – cloud your sense of social judgment. If you take complete responsibility for your actions (including following through all the way when you ask someone out), instead of trying to take the easy way out or shirking responsibility, you’ll find the world respecting you much more.  When I stopped being the girl others paid for, and became the woman who paid for others, that was the signal that I had become an alpha in the working world. Decide for yourself what you want to be, and act accordingly.

118. Nicole 118

     Here’s what I don’t get.  Why are so many men ANTI-chivalry when so much of being chivalrous can be NO cost or LOW cost, and really more is free than not.  So you have an opportunity to score major points with a lady by opening doors, or giving up your seat, or letting her get in front of you in line.  Paying for stuff is like 1% of that.

     When I think of the men who have really impressed me with their chivalry, they didn’t spend money to demonstrate to me that they did care about my comfort, well-being, and were probably not inherently selfish or narcissistic. 

     So that meant, again, without them spending money, letting me in front in a line for a buffet at an event, or asking if I wanted something when going to get a drink (at a party where food and drink were served, and where the man in question neither prepared or paid for any of it).  It meant getting me a seat in a place where there were few, or holding my coat while I put it on.  Opening doors for me to walk through.  It meant people pulling up their car if it was rainy, walking me to my door if it was dark, offering an arm if it is icy.  Some of those people were handy and offered that kind of help but I’m a dual degreed engineer so I know my way around a toolbox and can fix most things myself, and have figured out pretty ingenious ways to move and assemble heavy objects that should require two people,  but again, it’s a simple gesture that I appreciated and didn’t forget.  Why is that so offensive?  I didn’t demand it.  It didn’t feel entitled to it.  It didn’t make them more of a man to me.  But it did speak to me about how they likely treated people and women in general, and that was a good thing (that did in fact bear out).  The men who did none of those things never ever thought twice about me.  

     And I’d say the flip side is true in terms of how I can be supportive and nuturing, and if a man is in my home, I might make him hot chocolate, or tea or coffee or chai, and serve him snacks and let him control the remote, and making sure that he gets anything that he might want in my home.  It can also mean that I have no problem preparing a home cook meal, or surprising someone with baked goods and other kind of gifts women give to men.  I’ll straighten his collar or tie, or if there is schmutz on his face, I’ll offer him a tissue (I did that to one guy and two of his friends laughed but he commented that I was always looking out for him).  Those things are low cost and low effort for me.  Why would I get mad about doing them when it’s an easy way to show that I care?  Just b/c it’s 2012 and I’m otherwise a successful and ambitious and independent woman?  It’s kind of nice to turn that part off in private.  Do so many men hate being treated like that?

     So to me, those are simple ways to kind of enjoy traditional roles that can make the other person feel honored, prized, nutured, etc.  And it doesn’t require chauvinism, playing weak or dumb, or sacrificing any part of who I am as a well-educated and independent woman.  I guess I kind of enjoy playing Better Draper to someone’s Don for a couple of hours, minus the boozing, womanizing, fighting, passive aggressiveness and manipulation.

119. Nicole 119

     And I agree with whoever said that women get no credit for being nice or interesting or smart or kind…I could be perfectly awful and selfish if I’m deemed hot enough by anyone.  

     A man can definitely start to look like his has more hair and is 3 inches taller by being chivalrous and kind.  We get no such privilege. Nice guys sometimes get passed over but those things do increase your value to SOME women, probably more than you’re willing to give a chance to.

120. Paragon 120

     @ miskwa

     “As someone who was greatly humiliated by a player a year ago, I can tell you all that some of these guys are really, really, good at what they do and often do not give off red flags till your’e highly emotionally invested.”

      It occurs that the most obvious red-flag is a disassortative mating dynamic(where the female bears the weight – often, quite 
     literally – of unattractive proportions in discontinuous traits).

     So, stay within your LTR league – if you are observing patterns, refine for error and adjust your expectations(ie. downwards).

     Or continue playing long-odds.

121. Mia 121

     Paragon, what do you mean, stay in your ltr league? It can be difficult for a woman to figure out her league, as leagues are not determined solely by looks. Pretty young women get screwed over all the time, just as much or more so than dumpy, older ones. Women should simply go with men they click with personality wise who are relationship oriented. For many years I went for men less attractive than me because it gave me more security, but I have gotten screwed over or not gotten a second date with many of those average joes. I am friends with a lot of average dudes and hear them talk about women and, news flash, those types can be just as jerkish as more alpha types. 

     I have had far better luck dating men of the same attractiveness, about an 8. I recently started dating such a man, and he is tall, muscular, and handsome, but pretty much a nerd, like me. We always have a million things to talk about. At first I almost wrote him off because I was intimidated by attractive men and assumed the worst, but I gave him a chance. He is a hell of a lot nicer to me than that short, bald guy I was hung up on all last year, or the gangly, nerdy-looking hipster I got screwed over by this spring.

122. Selena 122

     Re: Helen #17
     “…Instead, they try to make it all about “equality: pay your own way.” Uh, no, it’s about the fact that you specifically requested a person’s time, effort, and company. Under the circumstances, it’s simple decency to pay.”

     Paying someone’s way when you invited them is the way one says “Thank you for joining me.” They didn’t have to join you. And you didn’t have to invite them either. 

     I believe the “splitters” amongst us DO get this, they just really don’t want to spend their money on someone else. Saying so would make them appear cheap, so they use the equality bluster to cover their true feelings.

123. Ruby 123

     Mia #120
      
     Ironically, that’s been true for me also. My BF is also a very good looking guy, and he’s treated me better than most of the much more average-looking guys I’d dated in the past. We also happen to have lots in common (nerdy interests), get along great, and he is genuinely interested in an LTR, which some of the less attractive guys were not, or at least, not with me.
      
     Paragon #119
      
     “It occurs that the most obvious red-flag is a disassortative mating dynamic(where the female bears the weight – often, quite 
     literally – of unattractive proportions in discontinuous traits).”
      
     Is that a double-talk way of saying that you suspect that Miskwa is fat?

124. Evan Marc Katz 124

     @helen32 in #112- Looks like you need a lesson in reading comprehension.

     You said: “Men refuse to do the work of a traditional role, but retain the power, control, entitlement and superiority.” Then don’t date them. Problem solved.

     You said: “What is a “man” nowadays? Wasn’t there a comment somewhere about a couch potato watching ice road truckers? That is the best you can get.” Perhaps this is the best YOU can get, Helen32, but I don’t know a single woman who is in a relationship with such a man, so it seems to me that this says more about the men you’re around or choosing than it does about men overall.

     You said: “My parents did not say “oh, its a girl. She better be super attractive and hot and sexy and do everything to please her man or she won’t nab a husband we can really love” although I feel more certain that this is what Mr. Katz thinks about his own offspring.” You crossed the line here and if I were in town, I would have banned your disrespectful comment. You don’t know me. You don’t know my wife. You don’t know my daughter. Not to mention that you don’t seem to have any clue what I stand for. Show me one time in 5 1/2 years on this blog that I said “she better be super attractive and hot and sexy” to a woman. I have not. I HAVE, however, said that she should do everything to please her man. Why? Because that’s what relationships are about. He should be doing the exact same for you. If he’s not, don’t date him. Very simple advice that you’ve managed to twist in service of your insult to me.

     You said: “The subjugation of women has progressed from being domestic objects to being mommy and daddy and hooker and mechanic and baby machine and nanny and handyman and financier for undeveloped “entitled” so-called men.” If this subjugation was still in effect, you wouldn’t have the opportunity to be the financier for anyone including yourself. Get off the victim act. You’re equal. I’m certainly not holding back your right to do whatever you want or date whomever you want. Neither is any man I know.

     You said: “men want a crazy chick they can blame for all their own shortcomings.” Quite clearly, you’re keeping the wrong company if this is your view of the opposite sex. Sorry, but you’re not describing anyone I know – unless you’re talking about the kind of women who blame men for their own unhappiness in life.

     If you’re going to continue to post here, read the rules on the right sidebar. No insults. No twisting my words or putting different words in my mouth. Offer your opinion with facts, not just feelings. Be respectful to the guests. And if this is too much for you, there are plenty of other blogs you can frequent where you will probably not feel inclined to insult the host.

125. Helen 125

     Evan, for clarification, there’s apparently more than one Helen posting here, and since you referred to “Helen” above – that ain’t me.

     Not to say that I haven’t posted a LOT in this thread. The only conclusion I can come to, reading and thoroughly enjoying all these comments, is that I want to ask out all the delightful women posting here. I’ll even pay for you.   And let’s bring Evan along as our special guest – I’m happy to pay for him too.

126. Rachael 126

     Helen

     lol I’ll jump on that love train! Dinner and drinks??

     But i can pay for me because I whole-heartedly want to go

     Nicole

     AMEN 

127. nathan 127

     Nicole 118 – I don’t disagree with any of your examples. I just don’t think most of it needs to be gendered. Yes, the majority of the time, it’s going to be men lifting heavy things and not the other way around. However, with a lot of this stuff, it’s really things anyone can do. So again, why can’t we just be kind and helpful to each other, and drop the men should do X, women should do Y commentary?
      
     As for the who pays for the first date bit, Evan advices men to do it because (a) it’s practical and (b) it avoids all this back and forth. I think it’s hilarious that Helen called it an “ideology” to be a man against paying for the first date. For women, the common ideology is “men should pay for the first date.” Many of us are blinded by views. This discussion is a classic example of that. In my own dating life, when dinner or drinks are involved early on, I pay probably 60-70% of the time. The rest of the time, the check is split. You all can take that how you want, but I don’t put much stock in money spent on dates. There are more important things about a person to look for early on in my opinion. I already said enough about all that, so I won’t repeat it here.
      
     Hope 114 “Would you really feel right to let a woman ask YOU to a romantic dinner, pick up the bill, and drive you home?  And call you a few days later to invite you to a movie followed by a romantic drink?”
     I have no problem with the situation in the first question. None at all. I know that a lot of men do. And frankly, I think they’d do well to loosen up a bit about all of this. As for the second part, if a woman took me out and paid for dinner, then I’d be the initiator for the next round. That’s how I approach dating. In the rest of my life, I spend much of my day leading. I have a leadership role in multiple organizations, and am a consultant for another. I have enough people looking at me for answers, direction, and the rest. When it comes to a relationship, I want to share the power. And by that, I don’t mean be the guy who talks a big game about equality, and then sits in front of the TV with his good friend Mr. 12 ounce, while his partner does all the cooking and cleaning. Obviously, it’s not always easy to translate this desire to those early dates, where you don’t know each other. I’m guessing a lot of the reason people cling to these old stories about who does what on first and second dates is to stave off confusion. Which I can understand, even when I’m in disagreement.
      
      

128. Paragon 128

     @ Mia
      
     “Paragon, what do you mean, stay in your ltr league? It can be difficult for a woman to figure out her league”
      
     That’s why you have to experiment, make observations, and make adjustments for error when observing patterns of failure.
      
     And yes, it is difficult.
      
     “as leagues are not determined solely by looks.”
      
     They aren’t?
      
     That’s the conventional meaning of the term.
      
     “Pretty young women get screwed over all the time, just as much or more so than dumpy, older ones.” 
      
     Pretty young women can still be pursuing men outside their league.
      
     “Women should simply go with men they click with personality wise who are relationship oriented. For many years I went for men less attractive than me because it gave me more security, but I have gotten screwed over or not gotten a second date with many of those average joes.”
      
     Being pumped and dumped, and not getting a second date are two different things.
      
     But again, there are patterns in your relationship history, that only you are likely to in a position to observe.
      
     “I am friends with a lot of average dudes and hear them talk about women and, news flash, those types can be just as jerkish as more alpha types.”
      
     Men talk shit all the time. 
      
     “I have had far better luck dating men of the same attractiveness, about an 8. I recently started dating such a man, and he is tall, muscular, and handsome, but pretty much a nerd, like me.”
      
     Just out of curiosity, are you tall(ie. ‘leggy’), lean, and athletic(like many of those hot female Olympians I’ve been watching)?
      
     I’ll bet you are not(which goes back to my point about disassortative mating).
      
     “We always have a million things to talk about. At first I almost wrote him off because I was intimidated by attractive men and assumed the worst, but I gave him a chance. He is a hell of a lot nicer to me than that short, bald guy I was hung up on all last year, or the gangly, nerdy-looking hipster I got screwed over by this spring.”
      
     Hey, that sounds great!
      
     Good luck to both of you.

129. Rachael 129

     Paragon

     You’re not accounting for various tastes.

     Some men like big boobs, some like asses, chubby, skinny.

     I don’t know if it’s like this everywhere but there are a lot of african men where i’m from (no i’m not ignorant I DO mean men who moved from africa) who LOVE heavy set blonde girls. These guys are smokin hot.

     They do only go for the beautiful ones who dress nice, smell good, wear make-up, jewelry etc.

     Meh. I guess it’s cultural. I’m questioning my rebuttal.

130. Clare 130

     I have to say I agree with Fiona # 109.

     Where I live, it’s convention. Everyone knows and understands the convention. A man and a woman trying to split the bill on a first date is socially awkward, to say the least. To be honest, on the one occasion that it has happened to me, I felt as bad for him as I did for myself because it was so awkward, I just didn’t really leave the date with a good feeling at all. And I can honestly say I’m a non-materialistic woman.

     Oh and Helen & Rachael, please invite me too! I’ll even fly up!

131. Mia 131

     Paragon, I’m a tall, young, athletic size 2, but I do think that’s besides the point.

132. Joe 132

     @ helen32 #112:

     Where can a guy meet one of these very attractive, educated, cultured women who know how to fix their own cars?

     @ Laya #113:

     IMO the reason the US Olympic women are outpacing the men is Title IX.  The rest of the world just doesn’t have that driver for womens sports.

     @ Nicole #119:

     You sure do get that privilege.  The not-quite-as-hot girl who’s fun to be with gets a lot more 2nd dates than the hot girl who isn’t fun to be with, just like the slightly short or balding guy who’s chivalrous gets more 2nd dates than the tall a-hole.

133. Paragon 133

     @ Rachael
      
     “Paragon
      
     You’re not accounting for various tastes.
      
     Some men like big boobs, some like asses, chubby, skinny.
      
     I don’t know if it’s like this everywhere but there are a lot of african men where i’m from (no i’m not ignorant I DO mean men who moved from africa) who LOVE heavy set blonde girls. These guys are smokin hot.”
      
     Yes, but are we talking LTRs or baby-mommas? 
      
     @ Mia
      
     “Paragon, I’m a tall, young, athletic size 2, but I do think that’s besides the point.”
      
     On the contrary, Mia.
      
     Research surrounding the ‘self-seeking like theory’ of assortative mating, observes a correlation between long-term mates and assortative mating.
      
     http://www.epjournal.net/articles/narcissism-guides-mate-selection-humans-mate-assortatively-as-revealed-by-facial-resemblance-following-an-algorithm-of-%E2%80%9Cself-seeking-like%E2%80%9D/
      
     Clearly, this is an instructive observation for any woman looking to maximize her liklihood of finding a long-term mate.
      
     So, what you have related is, in fact, a favorable indication for long-term mating.
      
     I am hoping it works out for you.

134. miskwa 134

     @ Paragon, sorry for taking soo long to get back to you but I hafta write on my computer to avoid some of those nasty but sometimes amusing typos. FYI, I am 5’7″, 120 lbs (thats “fat” winter weight, btw) with long black hair, dark skin, and exotic looking light eyes. I have three college degrees, am fit (170 ultramarathons thus far), am serious about social justice and the environment (and walk the talk). I clean up well, look like a girl, but also can build my own buildings and split my own wood. So, pray tell, what IS my ltr league?! I would think that it’s someone also fit, educated, and cares about our planet and others. Like works best with like which is basically what that article stated. Lowering your expectations (and yep, I have tried to “settle”) can be a disaster. you are with a man you do not want; not fair to either party. Tis better to know what works for you and what does not, if what works is unattainable in your area, either leave or stop dating till you are in a position to leave. Right now, I am doing the latter. Sad but necessary. I agree with many of the other posters, treating people well is not a function of looks, attractive men can and do treat women well and I had encounters with unattractive and average men who were veritable founts of negativity and invective. Real manly men treat women well.

135. Andrew 135

     Let’s break this down.
     “FYI, I am 5’7″, 120 lbs (thats “fat” winter weight, btw) with long black hair, dark skin, and exotic looking light eyes.”
     Cool. If you can catch his eye, you can catch his heart.
     “I have three college degrees.”
     While you might be impressed with a man’s three degrees, he cares not one whit about yours. In fact, you might come across as an unpleasant know-it-all.
     “[I] am fit (170 ultramarathons thus far)”
     Kind of a bonus but you seem rather obsessed by it. 170?! How can a man compete with that? How is he your priority when you’re out training and doing yet another ultramarathon?
     “[I]am serious about social justice and the environment (and walk the talk).”
     Completely and utterly irrelevant to him.
     “I clean up well, look like a girl.”
     The feminine attracts the masculine and men are visual. You get brownie points.
     “…but also can build my own buildings and split my own wood.”
     A bonus, but not required.
     “Real manly men treat women well.”
     Only if the women are feminine and deserve it. Welcome to Dating 2.0

136. Clare 136

     @ Sheyna # 49

     I ADORE your description of a manly man. Someone who loves women for all that they are (occasional irrational emotional moment and all) and is gentle to them.

     To me, it takes a real man (or woman) to look at the opposite sex and respond with tenderness rather than criticism.

137. Aaron 137

     “If you’re a typically masculine woman, you’ll have a better fit with a typically feminine man”

     LOL! I can imagine a makeup wearing, wispy little metrosexual guy in a room with some bodybuilder Amazonian woman HAHAHHA~!

138. Lucy 138

     I was thinking of this earlier after reading about this man who had a problem with a female stalker. Everyone treated it as a joke whereas in a situation reversed, it would have been the opposite. And the same happens with men who have abusive partners – always told to man up. Ah that’s a bit serious but my point is that people have the wrong ideas about what makes a man, and that causes men a lot of harm.

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