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Categories: Dating
Tags: dating advice, dating tips, where to find nice guys
Last blog post posed two questions. One had to do with how people discriminate based on age, and, by the time they get serious about dating in their early 40’s, often find that their options have become severely limited.
(This was the main reason for Lori Gottlieb’s famous controversial “settling” article – soon to be a book in February, 2010.)
The other question had to do with what independent, professional women in their mid-30’s REALLY want. To recap, let’s go back to our original poster, Adam.
I am a 42 year old single male who recently left a 5 year relationship for various reasons, but mainly because I wanted kids and she did not. I thought that since I was an attractive, fit, well-educated, financially and emotionally secure guy that I would have no problem finding a woman in her mid 30s to settle down with and start a family. I have tried a combination of online dating, speed dating, professional singles events, volunteering, happy hours etc. and have had very few dates over the past year. I thought that online dating would be great since you are essentially pre-screening people for dates. I have found that I get no responses from any women online and the only women who respond to my ad are usually much older and don’t meet any of my criteria outlined in my profile.
I am told that women want to settle down and have kids, etc., but their actions seem to be to the contrary. At singles events, women come in groups and are reluctant to talk to men. In online situations, women say they want desperately to meet a nice guy like me, but never answer my response to their profile. I am trying to remain positive, but two things are really bothering me. One, that younger women are no longer interested in dating men who are even just slightly (3-5 years) older than them and sometimes want to date men 5-10 years younger then them. Two, women seem to be content in the fact that they are independent and self-sufficient and have a career, family and friends that fulfills them and don’t seem to be interested in truly finding a relationship. I find the latter hard to believe, but find this mantra in every profile of every professional woman online.
There’s a cuter 35-year-old guy, and a funnier 38-year-old guy, and a richer 40-year-old-guy who are getting your women.
Any advice on how to navigate these new paradigms in the dating world?
Now, I must point out something that is uncomfortable, Adam, which is that you may be entirely overrating yourself. If this is the case (because we all like to think we’re attractive, smart, and secure), that might explain why you’re not getting results. It’s not that you’re not a good guy – but if you’re 5’7” or your profile is kind of bland, then guess what? There’s a cuter 35-year-old guy, and a funnier 38-year-old guy, and a richer 40-year-old-guy who are getting your women. In other words, in order for your perfect woman to fall for you, she has to “compromise” on age, since you’re not her ideal. The same way that you might have to compromise by writing to women 37-41. As always, you’re as valuable as your options and if all the people you desire aren’t responding, you either have to rebrand yourself or rethink your strategy. Blaming women for being unfair to you isn’t going to get you very far.
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I think looking for a partner is like anything else. People complain more than they do. Myself included.
Finding a partner is a major part of someone’s life and happiness, yet I would bet if most people kept a log they could not say that they consistently spent at least 5 hours week on this task.
The only time options become severely limited is when we make them so. Finding someone is truly dependent on being ready, making time and becoming available to explore some new territory. Evan has shed some amazing light on men and women. So has Alison Armstrong. I found the advice worked when I was truly ready…and for me it was later than earlier. Although older, it didn’t lessen my chances. Actually I think it enhanced it.
This is a good point. People tend to say that “he will show up when you’re trying less’. Not really, nothing is going to happen all by itself if you don’t do anything. It is easy when you’re in your early 20s, when you’re in uni or more active socialising or have less expectations. But later on that changes and you have to put yourself in a position to meet more guys. The best guys will most likely be taken, but there are still good, single guys out there. The problem is we’re all too picky.. Hey, if I want a good looking guy, I won’t expect him to make a lot of money.. but a lot of women expect that. That’s a lot to ask.
But the issue of singlehood.. yea, women can support themselves, have an active social life.. but there is also one more issue, – guys who are high maintanence. Relationships are not always a picnic.. they require effort sometimes. Boyfriends are great and exhilerating, but they also demand much – they demand that you always look good, that you cook for them, support them emotionally. Which is fine as long as you get back what you need.. But if you end up supporting the household (even by 50%), and then you get all the other duties on top of it.. plus the child. Well, I guess marriage can become a real tough chore. All the time and money I spend looking good (waxing, clothes, etc), all the time I spend preparing myself for his visit, meals, etc.. what does the guy bring in return? Of course, it depends on the individual.. what I’m saying is that the double burden is often too hard.. being single is sometimes easier. Often times there is simply not enough physical strength to maintain it all. Then again, it doesn’t have to be like that.. many guys are supportive, cook and clean themselves. It’s just a matter of finding one. LOL
Evan asked:
“If your best friend met her husband in line at the grocery store, shouldn’t you get to meet yours in the same way?”
If they met in the grocery store, I’m willing to bet the husband was putting in some effort. He made eye contact with her, engaged her in conversation, asked for her phone number…. Otherwise, they would have returned from the grocery store with groceries.
Some people can find a job by waiting for headhunters to call them. Most people have to put in a bit more effort. And even the people who can wait for headhunters may find it in their interest to put in some effort of their own.
I dunno, I have a lot of problems with this “you are only as valuable as your options” philosophy. Sounds like if you are short, fat, or ugly or whatnot, you should just go shoot yourself to avoid the misery. What about one’s intrinsic value as a human being? I personally might not want to “get it on” with such people (although I am sure there are people who do), but they still may have a lot to offer to society at large.
Are you referring to asking for things in a mate that one can’t offer themselves? That, of course, I would agree with.
However, I think it’s very unhealthy to conclude that if you aren’t classically beautiful or something, it affects your value. That would mean feeling second-rate in every area of life.
For those men that like to go to bars, more women go to bars/night clubs on New Year’s Eve, than any other night, through out the year.
Women in their mid 30′s have lost their hormones, they no longer need a man in their life.
You’ve gotta look at finding love the same way you do a hobby. Otherwise it gets pushed to the back burner. You gotta put in the time. Thinking “It’s going to happen when it’s meant to happen” and “When I find my soul mate, it won’t matter that I’m (insert really irritating quirk, bad grooming habit, etc). He/She will like me just the way I am.”
Let me tell you, it’s bull. Spend the same time looking for someone else and working on your dateability. Expecting someone to come along just because you aren’t expecting it or trying for it is like expecting to win the lottery without buying a ticket. It may be cliched, but it’s true. Worked for me, anyway.
And you know what? He WAS under my nose the right time. But if I hadn’t put in the time building my confidence, working on how I dressed and starting to use makeup, and getting in the habit of not being too available/clingy/clucky, I’d have fumbled it for sure.
Hunter@7: Dried up. Bitter and so on. Good thing they have careers cause no guy is gonna take care of that!!! But seriously I am not interestedin a womans career. IF she likes it thats fine, but I never heard a guy talk about how great his GFs career is. He talks about how hot she is or how nice ro sweet (meaning that she is easygoing and gives him what he wants or needs). Doesnt dump crazy emotions on him all the time. the choice is between hot or nice sometimes, but not between big career and little career.
Have to agree with where EMK is going on several points. Firstly, Adam probably has a branding or image problem with his online profile. If he’s targeting mid-30′s women, then he needs to put forth the image that he would match up well with those women. He should review his pictures and profile and see if there’s a conflict there. Does he *look* forty in his pictures or does he look like a fun and interesting 35-year-old?
Also, everyone is busy, you can always find the time to squeeze in some dates and wade through emails. The question is motivation and resiliency. Most people I know discontinue “searching” for a mate because they are frustrated with poor results and don’t know what to do next…I’ve been a victim of this ambivalence. You just gotta keep plugging away. It’s a numbers game and eventually you’ll hit yours.
I’m curious as to why a woman who would join, but not participate in, dating venues like Great Expectations, and EHarmony would hire a dating coach. ??
I’ll chime in as a 30-something “together” professional woman.
Someone who has a full life of work, hobbies, friends, travel, etc. is almost certainly doing lots of things to MEET new people. Now I know my particular hobbies and interests skew in favor of the demographics, but when I was single, I met men at the gym, on airplanes, at sporting events, at the library, and, yes, even at the grocery store (though my quest for the eternally efficient time to shop & quickest “drive-by” possible cut down on those meeting chances – hehe), to name only a few places. All I had to do was be willing to smile at someone and either start a conversation or respond to an opening with more than one syllable.
It was *easy* to meet people in person, and no, I wasn’t particularly trying. Ok, sometimes it did mean not putting in the earbuds and a hoodie over my head & slinking against the window on the airplane before I even SAW who my seatmate was. But, yes, meeting men = easy, even though I am, by all accounts, an introverted person. I’m sure that some of them were quality, dateable men, while some were not. If there are professional 30-something women who are not able to meet men in general, then I think it’s because they are actively shutting out the world.
That said, the *hard* part was deciding that some new person was actually worth getting to know. My free time was limited, and as an introvert already stretched to the limit with an active life, going *out* with someone new would have been a major expenditure of both energy and time. Many “together” professional women are tired of being “together” ALL THE TIME, and just want to come home from work, put on their pajamas, eat breakfast for dinner, and watch whatever crap they like on tv while sorting through some work email backlog (for me, that means tuning in to a hockey or baseball game, for someone else, I dunno, American Idol or whatever).
I met my SO online, and I think that’s because: (1) we were able to meet in a non-dating online forum for a common interest rather than a generic “match” type site; and (2) we were able to start to get to know each other before I had to make a real investment in time and energy. By the time I had to worry about getting dressed to go out, rather than online chatting, email or talking on the phone, I already had far more evidence that here was a guy worth spending the time and energy on moreso than a random guy I could meet on a plane, at the gym, or in the supermarket.
This leads me to the other factor that I think many 30-something professional women would admit if they are genuinely honest: we don’t like failing. We want to succeed at what we do. Career-wise, we know what it means. Being a good friend? Check. Being a loving aunt to nieces & nephews? Check. Excelling at a hobby or two? No problem.
When it comes to love and relationships, it becomes much more challenging if your attitude is that every bad date is a “failure” rather than a night to write off. But even the “damn, I just wasted a few hours” sense can be strong. I don’t like wasting time, and I am sure that one of my reasons that I was happier meeting my SO the way I did is that I didn’t feel like I had to devote “fruitless time and energy” to the search. I don’t know how many quality men I passed up along the way. I just know that I found a great one that allowed me to do a lot of the legwork while wearing pajamas.
I’m not sure how knowing this can help someone like Adam, but I’m sharing in case it can.
I’ve said it before in other threads,but unless we actually see what these people(in every thread ie: Adam,Evan’s clients he talks about etc…)look like,ages,other stats etc… and/or read their profiles we basically are talking abstracts and have no real frame of reference.
Evan’s client paid to join Great Expectations AND EHarmony but doesn’t follow thru and meet the men they set her up with?? Well then how intelligent can she be? She’s intelligent enough to seek out this blog (I assume all Evan’s clients read this blog with us?)and pay for Evan’s advice but will she actually take it and do the work?? We’ll see I guess…It takes EFFORT to achieve any kind of success out here.
Hi guys- I’m Evan’s new client he talked about in the article.
What is the best about working with Evan is the accountability. I suppose I could have tried to recruit a girlfriend to help – but somehow laying out the money, and setting an appointment on the calendar really makes it more “real” – just like my personal trainer at the gym. And sure, it’s not exactly “dating” coaching (yet), but hopefully it will be soon, as I’m finally actually USING an online dating site. It’s also encouraging me to be a bit more proactive about other activities “in real life” as well.
In response to Selena #11 – GREAT question
And Offwinger #12 – wow, you really nailed it on the head! You’re right that it’s really easy to meet people “in the real world” – but it’s just as easy to shut people out as well – and if I look at myself carefully, I tend toward that (a bit of an introvert myself)
(Oh, and one correction to Evan’s post: I joined Great Expectations, and DID go on a couple of dates *they* set me up with (one guy told me about his stomach parasite on the 2nd date!) – but then it was like other dating services – *I* didn’t do any further legwork to look for other matches…)
And JB #13: yes, indeed – we will see if I actually follow through!! so far so good – it’s been a slow start, but I have to reiterate – knowing I’m going to talk to Evan again next week – and he’s going to be able to SEE what I’ve done (or not done) is very helpful motivation to get un-stuck and get myself out there. Effort is being made. Really. I swear. For real this time
@11
To make a rationalization to herself? She can feel like she is doing something by signing up.
So I’ve been lurking on this site for a while, but decided to post today for several reasons. One is that I wanted to see if Adam had thought about dating a woman his own age. I know if he wants a bio kid that poses challenges, but just a thought. I say that because I’m a 42-year-old never married woman who would like kids (but I’m open to adoption if I can’t have them).
I’m also writing to say thanks to Evan for this blog and all the thoughtful information he puts out there. I used a few of his tips and found them very helpful.
Finally, I want to share my positive story with online dating. I dated someone for a year I met online. I thought we were going to get married, but it didn’t work out that way. We broke up in March. I fit the profile of a lot of Evan’s clients: professional urban-dweller, fit, lots of hobbies, attractive (subjective, I know), great friends, etc. So, I took a few months off to recuperate, and then I started dating again in July. I just counted up my dates (I write in my spare time and kept some notes) and I went on 49 dates with 24 people in 5.5 months. I dated older, younger, all different races (including short Asian guys;-), divorced with kids, divorced with no kids, never married, tall, short. I was very open. And generally I met a lot of really good guys (and yeah, I went on some really boring dates, but I survived). But not “the” guy. One came close, but he didn’t want to get married again and was very clear about that when it came time to broach the subject. So I let him go. Generally I waited for guys to email me, but wanted to mix it up a bit. So I emailed a few guys, using Evan’s tips for a short intro email that is funny and addresses something unique in the person’s profile. I emailed 7 guys, I think. Only 1 replied, several weeks later. We went out. And it was great. And we went out again, and again, and again. We’re exclusive now. And we want the same things. He’s 42, never married and wants kids. I’m sure he’d prefer a younger woman, but we are a very good match. We’ll see what happens. But I just wanted to say if you have the stamina (and I know it’s not easy!) to keep at it, you can have success. And I know I”m at the beginning stage with this guy, but I consider it a success regardless, because I met someone I really really like, respect, and am attracted to. You never know…
AAAhhhh,,,,,,, Reluctantdater, sounds like a real sweetheart, be nice to her…..
Good for you Reluctantdater!
Your comments about accountability made me smile – sounds a bit like having a therapist who gives you “homework” on which you have to report the next week. Best of luck.
CW,
Thanks for posting. It’s great to hear positive stories amongst all the dating sucks ones.
he will show up when you’re trying less”
Translation:
Trying to hard to get somebody to like you is a turn off that will drive people away, but confusing with not trying at all to be social gets you nothing.
You got that right Hunter!! Reluctant dater is more than sweet, I have known her for years…she is multi faceted, intelligent, genuine,open minded, easy going, spontaneous, determined, motivated….I could go on and on. Soooo glad you’re getting out there “reluctant dater!” ; ) You deserve the best. I need to follow your footsteps as ahhh yes I can definitely relate!! Great points “Offwinger.” I am a busy 30′s single professional woman and eventhough I meet and talk to a ton of people on a daily basis I know I need to put myself out there and make more of an effort and show that I would actually like to meet someone one day. I need to make the time to just do it. Thanks for the motivation everyone! : )
Here’s the other issue: Adam is implying that his efforts to date these supposedly otherwise awesome women is blocked by some mysterious force: that their self-absorption, career worship or narrow focus are like an ugly coat, once it’s discarded there’s a perfect woman underneath.
So not true.
What these things mean is that these women have issues. Maybe small ones, maybe big ones, but far from being a frustrating impediment, these traits are big red flags Adam should be glad he saw.
Of course, that’s with the LIVE women – the online dating world is a different animal. Every decently attractive woman is bombarded with responses online. You have to cut through. It might be helpful to get advice (or dare I say coaching?) to make sure your online presence matches the person you believe yourself to be.
I long ago realized that all is fair in love and war, as well as that there is no logic, reason, consistency to anything in the dating arena. So, please take no personal offense at my next comment, as I freely admit I am not an exception.
Reading the comments in this thread I can’t believe that women routinely complain about single men being full of themselves.
Glass houses people.
I would like to end this with a sentence about how it is no skin off of my nose, but while I am not dating anyone in this thread I do encounter their counterparts.
One guilty pleasure I have with reading EMKs blog is that in the process of helping people he gives them a reality check ( ie cutting them down to size ).
Good luck everyone, we are all imperfect human beings with a narcissist in us barely kept in check like the cold germs that are always dormant in our body.
I wish you all a happy Tuesday, a fantastic lay and a desire that you find that special person.
Offwinger #12,
Excellent post! I am older than you (48), but you summarized everything so succinctly about how I feel about dating. That’s it in a nutshell. It’s the energy and the effort. My job is demanding and stressful, so I don’t want to give up any of my weekend time unless I already know the man is worth it. One strategy I am implementing is that I will suggest we meet for an after-work drink. This way, I am already dressed, hair done, makeup, etc that I would have to do if we were to meet for weekend “coffee.”
I agree it is easy to meet people IRL if you are open and accessible, and I am going to focus more on finding more time for hobbies, going to sporting events. Because frankly, I don’t like online dating.
I will also say I have met some good men online, just not anyone that I wanted to go to the next level with. But I do know there are good men out there, and one of them I will click with.
The argument about chemistry has been debated ad nauseum on Evan’s blog. I will just say I am a romantic and I have to have it. That said, meeting naturally (via friends, work, hobbies, church, etc) provides for a FAR better incubator for chemistry, passion, etc. than perusing a profile online and crossing your fingers that this person is worth a meet. It is almost unfair to the other person that you have to make very rapid judgements about their viability.
I think online dating is a tool, but should not be the only way we connect with people.
Hey Evan,
Why is it that when WOMEN complain about the way men are, you just tell them to face facts and not try to change men, but when MEN complain, you write these long blog entries and ask women why they don’t want X-Guy because he’s so great? You did that with that Tom character and now with this guy.
Just wondering.
Dear A Reader at fake email address:
You, like many dissenters, only find the facts to support your own case – namely, that I have a bias towards men, as opposed to a bias towards truth and objectivity. In fact, I started this post by telling Adam that he may be overestimating his value to women, as many younger, fertile women may not want to date a 40something year old guy. Not exactly sure how this blindly backs Adam or all men in general.
My job is to be as nuanced and truthful as possible. Sometimes it means supporting the original poster (Dump Him, He Sucks!), but more often, it means challenging the original poster (Look in the Mirrror!). If you peruse dozens of other emails written by clueless men, you can see when I gave them the smack down. But you chose to ignore those and focus on the 2 or 3 where I validated the OP, who happened to be a man.
This is why you can’t believe anything you read on the Internet, folks. Everything can be taken out of context. Thanks for making my case, A Reader.
About my fake email address, of course it’s fake. I NEVER give out my real email address unless I know the person I’m giving it to. This is the Internet. I’m protecting my privacy and safety.
And yeah, you did start out by telling this guy that he might be unrealistic to limit his search to women who were at least 7 years younger than he is. But then you proceed to rag on women because we work 50 hours per week, etc. and by the way, try to see things from HIS point of view and that women who complain about there being no good men out there should think of this guy. Um, OK. Unless she happens to be his age, but that’s another topic. Anyway, it’s your blog and people pay you for your advice so who am I to dispute it? I’m out. Peace.
I do think that professional women can be seen by some men as too independent to settle down. The reason I believe is that many of these women don’t need a man to take care of them in the traditional sense (financially). Men like to be in control to a certain extent. I understand that, they want to be needed. From time to time, men have pointed out to me that I come across as overly independent, like I don’t need anyone. It isn’t that. If you are the kind of guy that is confident in yourself and your own success, you’ll win the woman’s heart, my heart would be won by such a guy. I like my career and am very driven. However, if I find a fun guy to enjoy things with, thought of my job goes out the window, afterall, it is a means to and end. I am all about the fun. I hope that other women are this way too. So, don’t think successful women are too independent to settle down. We will settle down if you are the right guy. Then you’ll have it all, a girl who is crazy about you and someone who can help you meet financial goals as an equal partner… there is nothing wrong with that, right?
Here’s another possibility: learned helplessness.
There was an experiment with a maze and some cheese and some mice. The mice were put in the maze, but always before they were about to get the cheese, it was taken away, or a gate closed between them and the cheese so they weren’t allowed to have it. After so many attempts leading to failure, the mice gave up. The scientists left the gate open, with the cheese in full view of the mice, but at this point, the mice had already given up on ever having the cheese – even when it was made completely attainable.
Many singles in their 30s and 40s have dated and been disappointed – a lot. Some experienced disappointments that were Titanic in scale. Many are probably experiencing a form of learned helplessness – the kind that makes you not check your eHarmony emails, even though you have 300 matches waiting to connect with you.
The cheese is there, and it’s helplessness/fear that stops them from taking it.
I think the only cure for it is to do everything you can to maintain a positive attitude. Law of Attraction expert Michael J. Losier has a free ecourse available on his web site at lawofattractionbook dot i360net dot com, called Law of Attraction – Attract Your Ideal Relationships. He recommends making a list of what you *do* want in a partner, and celebrate every time you date someone who meets at least some of these requirements. By focusing attention and energy on the things you *don’t* want, you will tend to attract more of that. By celebrating only the things you find that *do* meet your dating hopes/desires, you will attract more of that.
I think a negative dating mindset and fear of failure is the outcome of the “learned helplessness” older singles develop through one or more disastrous relationships in their past. Positive thinking, and deliberate positive actions, are the only ways to overcome that. It takes work.
One question: Why are single women in their thirties always assumed to be successful and “career-driven?” Most single women I know are no more successful than the taken ones. I don’t see how being career-driven actually decreases women’s chances of finding love, unless you’re working 12-hours a day (and on weekends!) and really don’t have ANY time to meet people. However, I do think it’s a very convenient excuse.
I am a 39 year old woman who fits the type Adam is looking for (maybe a little older than he would like) and contrary to what he has experienced, I was looking for a relationship, online, with someone in my age group or a little older. I feel so extremely lucky to have met a man who had much the same experience that Adam had online and I fell in love with him. You see, I want kids and a husband and I made it my priority, over everything else, including my job. I found a compatible loving man because I made it my priority, and honestly it didn’t take a long time, maybe because I made myself available.
On the opposite end of the spectrum are my peers…successful, independent women from age 29-39, who have never been married, act like they want a relationship, but every guy they go out with has some sort of flaw, real or imagined, and they continue to “keep looking” for Mr. Right, half-heartedly, IMO. Their priority is work, Coach purses and vacations with the girls.
So I can see where Adam is coming from, because there are many women like this out there and they aren’t “available”, even if they pretend to be. They are not willing to compromise for a man AT ALL. I know this because a lot of these women are my friends. It saddens me because they can’t see what life is truly about…love, children, family..things that a job and money just can’t provide.
The mystique of a relationship is the fact that no relationship is ever going to be perfect. There is no perfect man or woman out there…yet everyone seems stuck on looking for what does not 100% exist. Relationships are compromises upon compromises. It’s about merging 2 separate lives into a new life, not continuing the same old single life but in a relationship. Until these women realize this, they are going to remain out of reach for any man, not just Adam.
And Adam, it may help to look for women a little older than mid-thirties. First of all, you are going to have a lot more in common. Secondly, if a man is worried about having his own biological children, let me remind everyone that it’s not only a women who loses fertility with age…men start losing their fertility at age 40, so to be fair, it’s not fair for a man of age 42 to only want a younger woman just as it’s not fair for a late 30′s woman to only want a younger man.
Adam does have a point to a certain extent. A lot of women, especially professional women, in their mid-30s are still holding out for the “perfect” man even though they themselves are unlikely to be the “perfect” woman for that idealized man. In my own experience a lot of women try to play this game into their late 30s until they either simply give up on ever getting married or they drastically lower their expectations to something that is much more realistic and obtainable.
I suppose that a lot of men are also very picky into their late 30s, but men can get away with this to a certain extent because we don’t have the same biological clock as do women.
I get the impression that view think that a career women who engages in certain behaviors is “independent,” whereas a lot of men view the same woman as being “self-centered” for engaging in those behaviors. There is a fine line between being very self-centered and being very independent.
Star and Kurt,
I know the type of woman you’re speaking of… actually, it seems like many of them have blogs about their “fabulous” lives with girlfriends, travel, their cat/dog and stories of yet another guy they’re dating… or tales of the four-year relationship they had in the past with some troubled soul.
The same theme runs through all of these blogs — they say they want to meet Mr. Right, but they come up with a bunch of qualifications for him. One is often that he can’t live more than a certain distance outside their city limit — understandable when you think of traffic, but I dunno… if Mr. Right could possibly 45 minutes away by subway, it’s not worth it to try?
I remember some of my guy friends saying that they would see an attractive woman at a singles event and plan to go talk to her, until they see her return to where her girlfriends are sitting and exclaim loudly how all men are pigs and no one better attempt to approach her that night when she’s out with her faaaaaaabulous girlfriends! Maybe that was the alcohol talking, but I bet in a different setting, she’d complain about the fact that she never meets nice guys without realizing that a potential one was a minute away from trying to talk to her.
I honestly don’t think that men are as “intimidated” by a professional woman as many of us might think… but they don’t want to bother with one who seems to not be interested in putting a relationship on the front burner. When a 35-year-old woman is telling a guy about how she’s using a Fulbright to go to Rome to do a documentary on ancient architecture or how she’s going to spend the summer in Spain in intensive immersion Spanish courses, he might think that’s wonderful… and then mentally cross her off his list. Not because he has a problem with what she wants to do, but making those types of plans signals to him (rightfully or wrongfully) that “settling down” might be far from her mind right now.
But she probably has no idea she’s projecting that, and happily skips along to the next “adventure.”
SS, I have also noticed that a lot of career women have an obsession with traveling and expect a woman to have the same obsession. Women might think that they are “cool” if they travel a lot because their friends might be impressed, but the fact of the matter is a large % of men (if not a majority) aren’t impressed by the fact that a woman has done a lot of traveling. I am a professionally successful man myself, but traveling internationally is not something I would want to do very often and certainly not every year because it is kind of a hassle.
Oops – I meant that those women expect to find a man with the same obsession with traveling.
Kurt 34/35,
Maybe I can shed a wee bit of light on that, as yet another 30-something professional woman who’s done a fair amount of traveling in my lifetime.
I think women get the message (from mostly other women and some men as well) that men like women who have their own lives. That it’s totally unattractive to be sitting at home every night eating cereal in our pajamas putting our lives on hold for Mr. Right, and Mr. Right will be more attracted to a woman who has a life and loves living it.
So, while we’re single, instead of people telling us that if we want a healthy relationship that we should perhaps put more effort into finding one, we’re instead told to keep on living! Whee! And along the way, some man will come along and love hearing about our interesting lives and all that we do (versus saying that we sit at home every night in our pajamas, eat cereal for dinner and watch TV).
The problem is, while I think men DO want an interesting woman who enjoys life (whether that includes travel or not), they are not necessarily impressed by WHAT we’re doing in our pursuit of enjoyment. When I met my future husband, for example, he said he liked that I had hobbies and a lust for life (compared to other women that he dated) BUT if I was always on the go and never made time for him, then it wouldn’t have mattered how interesting my life was. He liked that I liked to travel, but only in the sense that he figured I wouldn’t be bored if we went on a short trip and he suggested going to a historical museum. When he later learned about my roster of countries visited when I was in college, he said that was pretty cool, but it didn’t make me a better MATE prospect… as I said, the part about my traveling history that was important to him was the fact that I would probably be open to traveling with him in the future.
He said one of the biggest problems he had pursuing other women was that they said they seemed interested in going out again, but they couldn’t plan a date for another three weeks or a month because they continually had pre-set plans to do other things. He understood that, but then it seemed that they never tried to fit him in after they got done with those plans.
So I think a lot of us in the professional 30-something set receive a message that might be beneficial in a general sense (live an interesting life, enjoy yourself, etc.), but in practice is often very much counterproductive because it leaves no room for us to devote effort and time to finding someone. He is supposed to just magically come along while we’re out being fabulous, but in one’s 30s, that’s not as likely.
We live in a society where women are told we ought be able to be all things to all people. My ex’s biggest complaint about me was that he felt I never made enough time for him. But yet he expected me to hold down a full time job, come home and cook, clean and be the primary caregiver to the kids. He felt put upon if I asked him to give the kids a bath so I could clean up after supper. I was emotionally and mentally drained most of the time. The women’s movement hasn’t done us too many favors.
SS, I guess I understand your point. I personally like to exercise and run races, etc., and would like to find a girl who is into the same things. For my point of view, a woman who likes to do those athletic-type things does have her own life and has a certain demonstrable ability to focus on a goal, which I also like.
I recently signed up for eHarmony and have been really surprised at the number of profiles I see for women who go on and on about traveling in their profiles. On eHarmony, we are supposed to list a passion, and one woman actually wrote in capital letters, “I LOVE TO TRAVEL!!!!!!” I immediately closed that match because in my own probably limited personal experience, women who like to go on and on about how much they travel tend to be extremely narcissistic.
I also noticed that the mid-late 30s women tend to list traveling as a passion more often than younger women for whatever reason.
Kurt, thank you for your insight. You’re reiterating something I’ve heard a lot from men (all of whom are in that mid-late 30s range), so I plan to share this with some of my single female friends, especially since many of us have been sold the idea that being well-traveled makes us MORE attractive to men… when in fact, it doesn’t have much of an impact at all!
If these women enjoy travel, by all means, they should continue to do so, but if they are advertising themselves this way online (and in person upon an initial meeting), it could be sending a message they don’t intend to convey. Maybe the mid-late 30s women have also had more time to travel, and because of that, consider it to be a hobby/passion versus the woman who might have studied abroad in college and not done much more than that.
Funny you mentioned running… I enjoy running 5Ks and the occasional longer race!
“I remember some of my guy friends saying that they would see an attractive woman at a singles event and plan to go talk to her, until they see her return to where her girlfriends are sitting and exclaim loudly how all men are pigs and no one better attempt to approach her that night when she’s out with her faaaaaaabulous girlfriends! Maybe that was the alcohol talking, but I bet in a different setting, she’d complain about the fact that she never meets nice guys without realizing that a potential one was a minute away from trying to talk to her.”
Well, okay …
granted, I have a general policy of keeping opinions like that to myself when under even a little of the influence, if you will.
But …
I’ve sat at black-tie events all night and then heard the next morning (from, say, a friend’s husband) that there were four men standing in the corner that wanted to meet me, but none of them could get it together to come over and introduce themselves.
So — how many minutes was he supposed to take?
She may not have expressed it in the best manner at all — but I don’t blame her for feeling impatient if he “was a minute from coming over to talk to her” and stayed in that minute all night till she was tired and ready to go home.
(And yes, I know, men are terrified of rejection, blah blah. I know, I know, I know. Here’s the thing: We are just as rejected if you all don’t come over and introduce yourselves. I know you don’t know it, and you probably don’t care — but I say it because men talk like they are the only people in the world that deal with rejection. Women do too. It just has a different face on it.)
Maybe it comes down to, as many people have written before, “approachability.”
A woman or group of women with their arms crossed, bags in front of them, scowling fiercely or even disgustedly at the men in a singles event (I’ve seen this many times), will usually not be approached, at least by me.
If I’m going to approach a woman, I want to see there’s at least some dim chance of success.
I don’t mind being shot down, but even then I’d rather it came from a woman with a smile than one with a snarl.
M @40
I understand where you’re coming from. I can only speak for my friend’s situation and say I believe him… because he met me by approaching me at a singles’ event. Obviously it didn’t become more than just a friendship, but I believe he was the type that actually does approach women at such events. I have another female friend who’s still involved in the city’s singles scene, so to speak, who knows this guy and says he’s always very friendly and talkative. So I don’t think he was going to waste much time approaching the woman who made the “men are pigs” comment.
That being said, in a general sense, what you’ve mentioned is quite maddening. Regarding that same party where I met the guy, I later in the week got a call from the organizer who said there was another guy who had noticed me and wanted me to have his number. The organizers asked him if he had spoken to me, and he said, “No.” Then they asked incredulously, “Well WHY NOT???”
He had no answer. I said I think I remembered him as the guy who gave me a quick look as I went to the coat room to hang up my coat.
For obvious reasons, I did NOT call this person, seeing that he never bothered to find me and speak to me at the actual event, yet took time to call the organizers and ask them to give me his number. Come on, how lame can you get!!!
So I honestly don’t think the first guy I mentioned was in that crew of men that were never going to approach… but her loud statement stopped him from making that first move.
SS, you have a point – I doubt that too many women would call a man who gave his number to the party organizer and asked that it be relayed to you. It is hard for a lot of men to start conversations with attractive women whom they like, but men have to learn to do this to improve their odds of ending up with a woman they really want because some women will never approach a man.
Some women just are not very friendly when they are approached, even at a singles event, and one or two bad experiences will cause a typical man to think twice about approaching women in the future. Unfortunately, men need to get used to this and with a couple successes, probably will get used to the rejections.
Some men will never be good at meeting women at singles-type events because they are too scared to approach anyone. Many attractive women have their defenses up even at singles events and that may be too hard for a lot of men to overcome. However, those same men might have more luck approaching women in other venues.
Replying to Star- You seem pretty smart to me. You make many valid points; things I have noticed countless times with women in their 30′s and 40′s meeting them in person and online. The thing is why don’t these women see what you have obviously figured out? And what are single men in their 40′s to do to find women like you? I am 43, but have been told countless times that I look like I’m 35. And I am in better shape physcially than most women and men in their 30′s. I take care of myself and I think that’s a big reason I look so much younger than my age.
I know that I wear your “loser” label, but I am a “good man” and am
headed for Thailand where I am going to ask someone to dance and she is going to say, “Yes!”, without all of these stupid games.
Will I think anything LESS if her for smiling at me, dancing with me or
wanting to be close to me? NO! she will not feel that it is beneath her
to treat me nicely. It will be MY pleasure to please her in return, without
worrying if I have broken any rules. Marriage? Maybe not.
But I would never be treated as well if I tried to play the game that you
have here. So call me your names, but your game is the one that is lame.
I like this post, enjoyed this one thanks for putting up. “No man is wise enough by himself.” by Titus Maccius Plautus.
@12 Good points. If you have been a physically attractive woman most of your life, you’ve become used to attention/approaches by men even when you put on your bitch face, and crossed your arms etc. No effort on your part. As you enter your 30′s and your looks wane, you can’t get results being passive anymore, although you’ve become used to guys tackling you everywhere. New game now. You will have to show some interest, smile, flip the hair etc. Look, and feel approachable.
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Another thing many 30ish woman do is to identify with shows like Sex and the City, and Desperte Housewives. Written by women, for women. I watch DH. Does anyone really believe that those good looking 38 yo dudes are all hot for the likes of Marcia Cross, Eva, and Terri. Especially the pool dude Jesse Metcalf (possibly the hottest guy on the planet, and I’m a straight guy). And Restalyne girl, the blonde, her name escapes me. She can’t even talk she has so much filler packed in her mug! In the real world, those dudes are not chasing those women around.
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I’ve also noticed that many confident, career minded women end up with beta type males. I think alphas don’t want that kind of resistance. No ying/yang. The two confident, career types usually don’t last. All chiefs, no indians. Bad program.
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Let’s play a word game. Three words: America, women, feminism. Do you get it? Best bet here is foreign women who are looking for opportunities in the USA. No Russians though, the russian women are sometimes tied to the government and were prostitutes in their home country. Try looking for a family oriented latin woman. They are hot, hard working, love family, love their husbands, and actually go to church. Latin women also come from a world where men don’t wait on them hand and foot, they are actually expected to just be family women. They are thankful for what they have due to religion and come from a little opportunity country so they appreciate a whole lot more. ”Diamonds? What’s that? Kids, I love them.” Just because they are Church girls doesn’t mean they are not horny or can’t satisfy you as a man, trust me. Boycott American women, import, until feminism is crushed.
I think women need to define the word “fun” to men because I think the the word ” fun” hearing it from women translates to men that all a lot of women want to do is “party”, and never take life seriously. It’s feels like I think to a lot of men with women these days that after college a lot of women still think life is still college as still go out and get rip roaring passing out drunk and never seriously getting into “life” after college as in seriously finding a guy, settle down, get married and start the family. Then on the other hand you have women that take life after college too seriously as in getting this super high job and then never ever making time to date, constantly making excuses why she hasn’t found a man yet, find a man, get married and start the family.
I think the roles have totally reversed as in men are the ones after college and getting their careers going wanting to find a lady and settle down and it’s so frustrating for a lot of men these days constantly hearing so many women constantly complain about men, always wanting to “party” and so many women thinking like two year olds as in there is always this “something” like in men better. Like if they (a lot of women) just keep holding out, and constantly say no there’s going to be this god like man just going to waltz up to her etc etc.
I think there’s going to be a very harsh reality wake up call for a lot of women in the next say 5, 10 to 15 years.
Take this seriously. Women that have careers, friends, hobbies, basically their own lives may want to find love, but they do not want to trade their lives for it. No matter how good of a guy you may think you are, there are usually some sterotypical gender roles that you play into that will cause the woman, who has all of those things I mentioned, to work even harder to take care of something else. This is most often seen when it comes to having children. I have friends that have men that cook and clean but when it comes time to go to an outing like a BBQ or the beach, it’s always the woman who has to run around after the kid and not enjoy herself. I think career women who want children are complaining that there aren’t enough men that will equally share all chores that come with having a family. I had a child early, became a single mom after 3 yrs and then found my career later when he was older. In my early 30s I took the time look for a lifelong mate and found one that didn’t want children. I believe that if I wanted to have more children I’d still be single because I can see that even my husband, whom I adore, would have been lacking in helping with the day-to-day of raising a child. You can’t recede into your cave for “me time” when your child needs you and expecting your woman to give up her “me time” when she has a fullfiling but time consuming career as well is unfair. Treat women completely as equals and don’t expect gender roles or go for a woman that does not have a career or an education for that matter. Again, not all men are like that but there is a shortage of men who are not like that. Just something to be mindful of when in search of a woman.
i would certainly say so, and that is why many of us serious men can’t seem to meet a good woman to accept us for who we really are. much more women nowadays think that they are all that with their very high paying job that many of them have now. we certainly need women like June Cleaver and Donna Reed again, and they were very committed to their men which made their marriage last.
Bill #51
“we certainly need women like June Cleaver and Donna Reed again, and they were very committed to their men which made their marriage last.”
You do realize that those were FICTIONAL television characters, right? And they were played by PROFESSIONAL women actors? It was the Donna Reed Show, not the Carl Betz (who’s he?) show. Oh, the irony.
Bill they were also fictional television characters. If you are trying to find a fantasy woman, you will be continuously disappointed.
Bill #51, I have always been the June Cleaver type, extremely devoted, faithful, loyal – cooked, cleaned, massaged, listened, pampered my husband. I worked outside of the home until our first child was born.
He left me and kids for a career woman. A woman’s commitment to their men is not the only thing that makes marriages last, it takes two to tango.