Are Smart, Strong, Successful Women Too Busy For Love?
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Dear Evan,
It’s been enlightening to read your blog. I’ve been paying more attention to social situations now, including my own. I have a general question based on my recent observations.
I went to many parties during the holiday season. I met smart, strong, successful single women at all of these events. It struck me recently that all of these women give off a vibe that is similar. I am also more in tune with my intuition at this point in my life. That intuition further tells me that these women are all on a similar path. It is as follows:
They are 36 to 44, give or take. They are single and childless. They have put a lot into their careers. They are in a comfortable space with their work, family, friends, and their leisure time. They seem to be vaguely open to a relationship: they get out there to socialize occasionally, but family, friends and hobbies take up most of their free time. I get the feeling that a guy has really got to fit into that space so that it is convenient to them, or that a guy has to excite them and fit all their checklist criteria before they are interested in dating.
I don’t want to group all women like this. It’s just what I am seeing. So is my perception off?
If my assessment is correct, then based on your blog, I should not make much effort here, because this type of woman does not deem a relationship to be a priority. Or maybe I should try to shake things up. If so, should I flirt and do some sophisticated version of what those seduction community coaches teach? I’ve tried that before, and the more tasteful approaches do lower a woman’s guard, but it has never led anywhere in the end anyway.
What do you think? –Dan
I think, Dan, that you hit the nail on the head.
And you’ve just arrived at the primary problem that my clients have when it comes to forging successful long-term relationships: they don’t want anything to change.
Nothing you wrote is insulting or demeaning or patronizing.
It’s just a normal guy’s observation about the women that he’s been meeting.
Not every woman is this way, of course, but almost ALL of my clients could meet your description:
36 to 44. Single and childless. Put a lot into their careers. Comfortable with their work, family, friends, and leisure time. Vaguely open to a relationship. Get out there to socialize occasionally, but family, friends and hobbies take up most of their free time.
But that’s just a demographic description of smart, strong, successful women.
This line is the real kicker:
I get the feeling that a guy has really got to fit into that space so that it is convenient to them, or that a guy has to excite them and fit all their checklist criteria before they are interested in dating.
Ding, ding, ding!
And you’ve just arrived at the primary problem that my clients have when it comes to forging successful long-term relationships; they don’t want anything to change.
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115 Comments »Filed Under Dating, Understanding Men
sg 1
I cannot lie, that describes me exactly.
Helen 2
It’s not as simple as “it’s all the women’s fault,” I’m afraid.
Evan wrote: “[Dan,] Nothing you wrote is insulting or demeaning or patronizing.”
Agreed. Also, Dan does not seem like a bad guy. But what he wrote was rather narrow-minded. He says he tried to approach women and managed to have them let their guards down – “but it has never led anywhere in the end.” And both he and Evan then appear to place the responsibility for this not just on the women Dan met, but on smart, strong, successful, single women more generally.
The truth is that in most cases, it never leads anywhere in the end, regardless of how approachable either the woman or the man was. That is not a reason to criticize “smart, strong, successful single women.” I dated (and also got turned down by) a lot of smart guys before meeting and marrying my husband. Just because things didn’t work out with them doesn’t mean that I am justified in stereotyping all smart men as being unapproachable.
It’s not that the general points may be wrong – it’s that this particular example didn’t fit the bill. As such, it does come off as being a blaming game, even if that is not what was intended.
Jen 3
I write for women (often younger, 20-somethings, but all ages) on every issue from balanced diets to cultivating intimacy, and the argument is always the same: you have to make time and let go of some of your regimes and personal goals if you want to share your life with someone else. I think it’s easy as a woman to feel pressure to be as successful as possible, as WELL AS watch your weight, AND get sleep, AND eat well, AND have relationships with girlfriends/family/the homeless shelter you volunteer at, yada yada yada. The problem is, soon you’re 35 and all you’ve done for ten years is get up at 5 to go to the gym, get home from work by 7 to cook a healthy dinner and conk out by 9 pm. You need a little space and wiggle room to let someone else in – to have the energy, the time, and the flexibility to accommodate someone else AND be able to make them happy and reach their goals, as well.
Great article, and, if/when you get yelled at for it, I’ve got your back.
Nadia 4
Evan, I think this is right on, but I do think you’re overlooking one crucial thing: most of the single women I know have such good lives that it isn’t worth making room for a man who offers very little. Men need to step up their game. Overweight, middled aged, balding men who are paying child support and who want to have sex with us are a dime a dozen. I’ll speak for a lot of my friends by saying, we’re pretty happy to share company with each other until the pickings improve. Sure, you have to make room and weed through the masses in order to find the great guy that will be a terrific partner, and most single women of a certain age don’t feel like they have to do that. But I do think if these opportunities weren’t so few and far between, more women would stay open. If you’re overweight, balding, and on a limited budget, we’ll still consider you, but you better be prepared to offer something else. Make sure you can hold interesting conversations, doors, and the rake in my front lawn when the leaves keep falling down.
Helen 5
Relevant to my earlier point, and to the OP’s letter:
At least in my social circle, whenever something goes wrong in their lives, the men tend to blame others while the women tend to blame themselves. An example: both my husband and I recently gave business presentations in separate venues, and we both noticed one person yawning while we were talking. My husband’s response was to say that the person yawning in his case was a bad worker and someone he wouldn’t want as a colleague. My response (about the person yawning in my case) was to think that my talk must have been boring.
I see this time and time again, among my male and female colleagues, friends, married couples, etc.
So, to Dan: the whom you tried to approach with whom things didn’t work out are not necessarily to blame. You may not have been the right fit for them. That is nothing to take personally (this happens all the time in dating), but it’s also not a reason to assume that something is wrong with them, or with brilliant women in general.
Lara 6
Dan: Agree with EMK. These women may not be interested in marriage or a romantic relationship on any terms. Or they may not be willing to give up the life they have built for themselves to have a guy unless he fits in very well. Or they might be dating around and all booked up. Or they may not be that into you. If they aren’t displaying romantic interest in you best to keep moving on unless you see the possibility for friendship with some of these women and can work out the logistics of that.
Question: Why are you interested in them? Doesn’t seem a good fit.
susan v. 7
I am in my 30s and after having a career that did not fulfil me and spending lots of time and effort focussing on dating in my 20s, now I am focussing on building a career and life I enjoy no matter whether I ever meet someone or not.
Because I feel I wasted lots of time dating the wrong people, my schooling is my biggest priority now and while at times it gets lonely, it has helped me build confidence and self-esteem and believing in myself. Now, I have not done all of this alone but with the help of an amazing therapist who has encouraged me to build community, to open my heart to others and most importantly to be true to myself, my needs and wants and be willing to express them.
I would recommend to every woman out there to build a life for herself before being in a serious relationship with anyone. To know that you can take care of yourself financially and have others to rely on emotionally besides your partner is a win-win situation.
Anyone who makes her or his work his only priority most likely is not having quality relationships with family or friends. Having a full calendar, a phone ringing all the time or meeting with friends every week to gossip or go drinking does not automatically mean that person has her or his life and priorities together.
david 8
I’ve dated two work-a-holics and our relationship (and me) was treated like half assed icing thrown on a chaotic cake…that may speak to more when one of these women are IN a relationship (with a weak foundation — giving 3% of their time energy and focus to it). But as this guy’s met them at parties — they are are also on online dating sites. Profiles that brag about how BUSY they are (multiple times) is the equiv. of women seeing shirtless photos in bathrooms. Just completely turns me off.
Androgynous 9
Actually, it appears to me that these strong, successful women may not even want a man. They have their support networks, are never lonely, are never bored, have stimulating and rewarding careers that can support them and then some. They live life on their own terms and are not prepared to compromise for someone else unless that person is really, really special. Even if these women want children, they may opt for single parenthood irrespective of what society may think of this.
Of course it is entirely possible some of these women are secretly unhappy about not having a man in their lives. However, if these women are not going to accept changes in their lives to find and accommodate another person into their world, then maybe their desire for a man is not as great after all, certainly not as much as their desire for the lives they are currently living now. I really believe that if these women want something bad enough, they will do something to get it – like Evan’s clients having the courage and sense to engage a coach like him.
On the flip side of the coin, I know very intelligent and spirited women who feel they have totally wasted their entire lives and missed fantastic opportunities living for men who are totally unappreciative and unworthy.
Soul 10
Although very short-lived, I think my personal experience and my new relationship constitute an excellent example that confirms what EMK is saying in this post.
(Bear with me as my English is not perfect)
First let me set the stage…I am smart, strong and successful. I hold a Phd in Economics, and I have (had) an excellent job. I have travelled to many countries and I am a go-getter: at 35, I have already lived and worked in 6 different countries! On top of that, I am attractive (people say so). Pretty face…and extremely fit body with nice feminine curves (mind you, I LOVE working out and I have had a personal coach for 6 years (3-4 times a week)). In addition, I am optimistic by nature, I smile a lot and I think I am reasonably funny (ahahaha). Well…I know it sounds like I am boasting and that I am full of myself, but this description is necessary to serve my purpose in this post…
…so with all that said, most people are surprised when they find out that until last July, I was single and I have stayed single for almost 5 years. SINGLE. FOR. FIVE. LONG. YEARS. Nobody. And not even one night (or one day) of sex. Very few dates … I want to add that I am not shy at all. Life was just like Evan describes it in his posts….I had a bunch of female friends, 30-50+ years old, most of them pretty and fit (hey! we have money, and we have time!), all of them as smart or smarter than me, funny….and single !!!! We all claimed that we wanted to find a man, we used to go out pretty much every weekend, but we always ended up sticking to each other during the parties, talking and sharing about work…. and going back home alone…If one of us did find a date, she would ditch the poor guy after one or two dates under the same excuses: we always found ourselves better than those guys: better educated (of course, we all have PhDs!), wealthier, etc etc.
Last May, I have decided that I did not want to finish my life alone and that I wanted to have kids before it was too late. I had already thought about this, so I have saved up some money and I made one of the biggest decisions in my life: I took a 2-year leave from my excellent and well-paid job. this is the scariest decision I have made in my like. But I do not regret it…
That’s the only step I took: I kept working out, I kept reading all the books that make me so smart (ahaha), I kept reading this blog and applying EMk’s advices (but I was already). BUT this one and only step has changed everything !! As soon as in July, I have found the man who I think is the love of my life. We have been together since then and he is doing the 8 things a boyfriend should be doing according to EMK(:-)). In addition, he wants to marry me and to have kids with me (although I am making tons of efforts to pace him).
Although I have never had any criteria for my future husband besides a lot of integrity and a strong family-orientation, I must admit he is nothing like I would have imagined. However, love and chemistry are there (although I did not feel the chemistry immediately, after several dates, it actually grew on me like crazy!).
So what is the difference between “Soul with an excellent job”, and “soul without a job” ?
- Now, I take the time to get to know people because I do not (rightfully) think that I have to perform at work and that I do not want to loose my time with people to no avail ;
- I am almost never in my masculine energy anymore: I enjoy music, wine, chocolate and dancing for themselves, and not as a means to release my stress (i do not feel stressed anymore),
- I do not seek any result when I encounter people, I am friendly to everybody (women, men children, waiters etc.)
- I smile a lot, I enjoy life and I enjoy creating beauty for the people around me.
- I am playing (and having sex) with my man ALL the time (and for this too, you have to make time and make yourself available)
The only problem of course is that I do not have any salary any more, and I am using up my savings account… But what is money compared to the joy of having wine and diner at home with your man, instead of crying in your car on your way back from work because you do not want to go back to an (extremely well-decorated) empty house??
I know I will go back to my job or to another one eventually, but I have learned an invaluable lesson and I think this is the same lesson EMK is trying to teach in this post
Ria 11
l know many successful career women in my network (aged 36 – 44), that have kids and husbands, and all the package seems to work with them. At the other end of the scale, l know women, who do not have careers, therefore more room for making time for rel. ship, yet they are 36 – 44, without children and still single. Go figure.
My opinion is that career isn´t the main *showstopper* of meeting the partner, those women either really don´t want relationship, (until indeed, the special one comes along, after all the bad dating and wasted time of wrong people in past), OR they actually do want to have relationship and they struggle to find out what they are doing wrong ( time to book Evan), because it seems not to work.
Eric 12
You can take that age range down quite a bit. I see the exact same thing over and over with smart, successful women in their mid-20s. I’d really like to get to know some of them but they can’t go on more than 2-3 dates before they lose interest in the whole process.
Goldie 13
@ David #8, profiles where women brag about how busy they are, came into being in the first place because we kept being told that men like a woman who has a life outside of them. You know, independent, fun, not needy, not clingy… Turns out you cannot win. If you’re not busy, then you’re going to take over a man’s life, and if you’re busy, then you probably won’t have time for a man — either way, you lose.
I cannot make up my mind about how I feel re this whole thread. In my personal career, first I took for years off to stay home with the kids, and that severely limited my career opportunities. When I came back to the workforce, I looked for jobs with good pay, good benefits, close to home, flex hours, job security — jobs that allowed me to juggle work and children. Keep in mind, those were high-paying jobs at large corporations… just not very exciting or cutting-edge. Now the kids are grown and don’t need me to have flex hours or work close to home — they do however need cars and college educations, that I cannot provide them with to the extent that they need. Meantime, I keep getting turned down from exciting, cutting-edge jobs, because those employers don’t count the slow-paced, boring work at the various fortune 500′s as valuable work experience. I’m facing a real danger of being out of work or having to take a pay cut one day. In my case, at least, whatever sacrifices I made, I made them for my children and they appear to have paid off in terms of my kids’ academic and personal success (knock on wood). To put your career (and, consequently, your future) on a back burner for a man that you haven’t even met yet… this kinda boggles my mind. There has to be some middle ground.
@ Soul:
“But what is money compared to the joy of having wine and diner at home with your man, instead of crying in your car on your way back from work because you do not want to go back to an (extremely well-decorated) empty house??”
1) wine and dinners don’t grow on trees, and 2) crying in your car on the way TO work because you don’t want to go to a job you hate is just as bad. Not trying to knock your decision, you sound happy and I hope things work out the way you plan! Just saying, there are always tradeoffs
Eleanore Wells 14
Hmmm. I’m single, childless, smart, successful…and not at all “too busy” for love. I love dating, love having a boyfriend. There’s room in my life for all the things that are important to me. People who are too busy for love probably don’t want love. Those of us who do, figure it out.
I blog about this a lot: http://www.TheSpinsterliciousLife.com and http://www.WomensVoicesForChange.org because I hate this thinking that being smart and successful is somehow incongruent to being a fantastic date and a wonderful partner.
Lynn 15
It’s all about balance. We all need to pursue fulfillment and contentment as individuals for our own sake, but it also makes us attractive to potential mates. However, the overly busi-ness rampant in American society does have its downfalls. We need to have time to just BE, which includes romantic relationships.
david 16
@Goldie — Hmmm, what I’m describing is different — a good example is like when someone writes something like “I don’t even know why I’m on this site, I’m soooooooooo busy…” “Maybe if the right guy catches my attention” (i.e. I’ll give him 3% of my time)
Jennifer 17
@Soul #10- I loved reading your story! I’m happy that you are happy.
Nadia 18
Helen: Here, here!
Roxanna 19
Even, you’re so right on the money! I have a friend – a very, VERY successful woman who recently complained that she doesn’t have time to date, yet she does want a RELATIONSHIP. When I pointed out that her schedule is so full she barely has time to sleep, she replied “Well, my Friday nights are normally not too busy”… Meaning, she totally expected a man to fit nicely into her Friday-night slot!
I think that very successful single women are like a magnifying glass that reflect all women in America: nobody wants to waste time on bad dating while everyone wants to be independent and lead full lives. Well, Evan is right: making space, time and changing mentality that INVITES a man into your life is totally “you will build it – they will come” approach.
Chella 20
Some of the smart successful women are making time to go on enough dates to find Mr. Right AND we do realize we lead full lives (on purpose because we like it that way) AND have every intention to shift how we spend our full lives once we find a man with mutual attraction. We don’t plan to dump our friends, families and hobbies, but there’s a way to make/shift time for a fabulous partner once we find him!
Lara 21
Goldie #13/Eleanore #14: Couldn’t agree more. The main idea here is that if you’re a successful woman, you must be some kind of horrible, self-involved person. If you’re smart and accomplished you must be some kind of rude, domineering b****. Same old saw. I thought we’d moved beyond these kinds of stereotypes.
Eleanore: I’m going to check out those sites. They sound good.
helene 22
We are always hearing on this blog that men want to be accepted AS THEY ARE and don’t want women trying to change them when they get into a relationship. Yet here we have poor Dan apparently complaining that these women seem like they wouldn’t be prepared to change their lives to accommodate him and that he’d have to fit in with the way they already are if he were to date them??? Well… boo hoo… If men’s biggest desire is not to have to change when they meet a woman, I’m not sure why Dan is so put out that – surprise surprise – women may not want to change either when they meet him.
helene 23
Sorry, I should have added that I think perhaps Dan’s problem is that he is going to the wrong parties… There are many millions of women on this planet who don’t work out at the gym, don’t maintain close relationships with family and friends or participate in hobbies – many who don’t even have a job to take up any of their time! If Dan would like to meet women whose lives are devoid of activity and who will have plenty of time for him, he should have no difficulty at all in finding someone who fits the bill – any ordinary shopping centre in a not very well off part of town would be a sensible place to start his search.
Helen 24
I agree with Androgynous 9 and Goldie 13. Upon rereading, there is something distinctly off about both the original post and some of the comments. Now it doesn’t even sound like this was a real letter by a dude named ”Dan”. It sounds like it was a made-up letter, used as a springboard for Evan’s point.
The point itself has some merit, but then some commenters took it to what amounts, in my opinion, to a disastrous extreme. Taking two years off your job to find a man strikes me as an incredibly unwise action. You’ve lost your salary, benefits, and possibly a chance to get back in (or in any case, to be in as good a position as the one you left) for something as uncertain as finding love. What if this person doesn’t turn out to be the one? What would you have lost as a result? Right now all your hopes seem pinned on this one person for all the happiness in your future – that is way too much to be asking of any human, even a good one.
I sincerely hope no one looks at this thread and suddenly thinks it’s a good idea to abandon work to pursue men. Good Lord.
Lance2012 25
@Lara #6 re: “Why are you interested in them? Doesn’t seem a good fit.”
I am not Dan, but I fell qualified to answer for him since my target demographic is the same as his, women without kids, 36-44. The answer is (drum roll)… Because I want to have a family, and the vast majority of single (non obese) women 36-44 that still claim that they want to have a family are women that have put off having a family to pursue a career.
Although I have come to learn that many of these 36-44 career women are not sincerely motivated to have a husband, let alone a family does not change the fact that they are the primary game in town for me. Sadly, the chubby 25 year old at my Bank that flirts with all the time, is looking a lot better as I type this out.
henriette 26
I don’t think that anyone is suggesting that smart, successful women cannot be fantastic dates and wonderful partners. It’s just that many of us walk that fine line between keeping ourselves interested in our full lives and giving off the impression that we don’t have the time or energy for a loving relationship.
I meet plenty of successful men who only want a woman who can contort herself to fit into his hectic lifestyle. And there are plenty of “desirable” – read: fit, young, bubbly, nubile – women who will joyfully bend to fit into his life because to them, a successful, rich man is the pinnacle of desirability. On the other hand, I don’t know a lot of successful, rich women who want the kind of man who would consider bending over backwards to fit into her life only when and where she allows him. That super-flexible, accomodating dude tends not to be the A-Type Power Player that so many successful, busy women are attracted to. He tends to be a laid-back, chill, sweet guy who powerful women often scorn.
Soul 27
@ Helen:
You are totally right. I am just sharing my story… I certainly don’t intend to tell anybody what they need to do with their lives. As for me, I KNOW I can fall back on my feet anytime workwise (I am optimistic by nature, remember?). What if this guy is not the one, you ask? There is no guarantee in life, no guarantee !
@ Jennifer:
Thank you very much. He actually is making me really happy. And reading your comment too!!
Saint Stephen 28
The problem is that most smart strong successful women don’t seem to know how to compartmentalize – the way men do.
Is either they have a love-life or they just get seriously enmeshed in their work-life.
A man can be smart strong and successful and still make out time for a love-life. Which is why you see successful men dating two and sometimes even three women simultaneously.
I’m sure if Soul was a man she wouldn’t need to take some time off her job in other to find the one, but good decision anyway – It shows how self aware she is. I won’t advice women to quit their jobs (In other to find the one), all they need is just maintain a good work-life and love-life balance. Balance, people…. balance is the key word here.
Dan would be better off dating high and elementary school teachers, they might not make tons of money – but they would making out enough time for him. Most of the smart strong successful women i know who happens to be married or in stable LTR are the ones who found their SO while they where in college – hence dating wasn’t even an issue for them.
Daisy 29
Dan shouldnt just assume that these women dont need a man in their life. I’m only 25 and smart, successful, bla bla bla, but before i met my current boyfriend of 2 years, I had a hard time finding a man that would pursue me. Friends told me that somehow i give men an impression that im a hard catch or the ripe apple at the top of the tree that they wont bother climbing. Others have told me that I somehow intimidate men with my accomplishments. I like to think that im friendly and flirty towards men, so i see no reason why men would just assume that i dont need or want a man. You cant just blame it all on us women. If those men would just give us a real chance rather than assume stuffs, then who knows what wonderful things could happen. I’m glad my current boyfriend gave me a chance, and until now he cant stop telling me that im the best thing that ever happened to him!
Goldie 30
@ St Stephen: high school teachers with a lot of time on their hands, LOL that’s a good one. There was a girl on my bowling league years ago who taught 6th grade. She’d come into the bowling alley at 9:30PM with huge stacks of papers to grade. She did get summers off, that’s true, but aside from that, she worked pretty much all day long. She did date and marry someone back then, and is still happily married to him now — he was just accepting of the fact that her work often keeps her busy.
Which leads me to another point: you say “A man can be smart strong and successful and still make out time for a love-life”, but so can the woman. Except, with a man, it is more socially acceptable that he’d be juggling work and love life. When a man cancels a date because he has to work late that night,everyone totally understands, but if a woman does it, oh the horrors. She must be a workaholic b.tch!
Then again, we’re not looking to date society as a whole, we only need one man who is okay with us having a demanding job. From my experience, these men do exist.
Lara 31
SS @28: You say,
The problem is that most smart strong successful women don’t seem to know how to compartmentalize – the way men do.
Is either they have a love-life or they just get seriously enmeshed in their work-life.
That doesn’t make sense. First you say women don’t know how to compartmentalize and then you give an example of women compartmentalizing. ???
Nicole 32
Great point Goldie…my mom was a school teacher for decades and I have NEVER had to work like she had to work after hours and as an engineer, outearned her after just a couple of years working. Totally off-topic but it’s why it burns me when people act like teachers are some overpaid fatcats when in reality, most people with that level of education make far more for far less work.
I think people have this idea that the kinds of women who are teachers will be waiting at home for them with dinner and slippers but yeah, it’s hard work plus a lot of them scramble to find summer work (e.g. summer school, tutoring, etc). b/c their pay is so low.
I don’t know, I think the poster is stereotyping women and just hasn’t met one who wants to get to know him. Or maybe he’s writing them off BEFORE he even tries. He just didn’t describe getting blown off so much as it sounded like he decided he knew what these women were about before even meeting them. I think that if you get to a certain point in your life and have never married, you have built up a full life b/c seriously, are you just supposed to be at home cutting out pictures from wedding books or something?
If you are lucky you build a life and a tribe so you AREN’T at home by yourself being miserable, not b/c you are a selfish, workaholic harpie. I really dislike the fact that women who have their stuff together get penalized for it. You have to build your life out b/c not everyone is going to meet someone, but the right women or man WILL in fact make time for you. I’ve definitely known people who were like that…they never had time for anything or anybody until the met that one person that they absolutely could not let get away.
And I’m pretty sure that these women are all hoping to meet someone. I do think women who blow you off just don’t want YOU. Ditto with men.
However, his comment reminds me of the female friends who would never let other girls stand near them when we all went out, b/c they felt it would intimidate men, so they were probably right about that.
LC 33
This is really unfair. Single women in their mid to late 30s without a man are told to get a life, be independent, go out with friends, date yourself, be interesting, have hobbies. But then we are criticized as being “too busy” for a man to be interested in us. How many dates have I gone on where the guy never called back? Am I supposed to just give up the life I’ve built the moment that I meet a guy? Then I’m too clingy. Why can’t women & men just try to get to know each other and stop making so many judgements? Maybe a woman doesn’t want to go home to an empty house every night, and she goes out in hopes of finally meeting a nice man. Jeez.
Lara 34
Nicole, LC (32 22): Brava. Jeez is right.
Heather 35
I agree with Goldie.
We women can’t seem to win. If we make plenty of time for men, we’re clingy, psycho, something’s wrong with us, “get a hobby”, etc. But if we fill up our lives with good people, work, and things we enjoy doing, then we’re just awful, man-hating women who are afraid of intimacy.
Dan kinda sounds bitter. Actually he sounds like an ex-boyfriend of mine who whined about that, when the problem was that he lied about his height, and let his Mama control all his relationships with women, LOL.
Can’t have your cake, and eat it too, Dan. We’re either too busy or too available so until or unless you keep stereotyping us women, you’re going to keep on going home alone, because alot of us women don’t have time to put up with whiners.
Helen 36
helene, Nicole, and LC – right on, sisters. That’s why I thought this Dan letter must have just been made up: it’s irrational and myopic. Is he really criticizing women for having a life and friends and family? Guess he’s not a family-oriented guy. Probably doesn’t have many friends either, if he thinks it’s reprehensible for women to have friends.
What does he expect single women to be doing if they shouldn’t have a rich life: sitting at home twiddling their thumbs? How attractive is that?
I would say that women should not care what men like this think.
Joe 37
Lara @ 31:
You’re not getting Stephen’s point: he’s saying women have either a love life or a work life, not both. Having one but not both is not compartmentalizing.
Goldie 38
@ Heather, I’ve got to add that I’ve never had this problem in real life. Normally I’d get emails from people saying something like “wow, looks like you have a full life, this is so cool” and then they’d want to meet. Maybe because they have full lives themselves, but then we’re both willing to rearrange our full lives to include each other… they’d still be full, except now with the other person in them.
nathan 39
Evan’s main point – that some women don’t want to change anything in their lives in response to a relationship – is very accurate. The same goes for some men. It doesn’t seem that difficult a concept in my opinion. You want a great relationship, you have to shift some priorities and drop some of your activities. End of story.
I also totally agree with Goldie’s comment about it being more socially acceptable for men to have “busy” lives that make dating challenging. And frankly, this needs to change. Everyone should be able to have rich, fulfilling lives, regardless of gender.
Dan might want to consider that the older we get, the more people tend to have on their plate. If it’s not raising a family, it’s the extra work taken on, or hobbies pursued to the point of passion, or friendships made that have lasted the long term – all of which aren’t going to be immediately chucked away because of some love interest. Stephen reminded us about balance, and I will second that. You have to become better at discerning between someone who’s life is impossibly busy, and someone who’s life is rich and full, but still balanced enough for a relationship to be possible.
Lara 40
Last I checked, “to compartmentalize” means “to separate into isolated compartments or categories.” Like, you can have a “love life” (one category) or you can have a “work life” (another category), but not both.
Saint Stephen 41
Lara
Why is this difficult for you to grasp?
To clarify a bit more; You can have full work and love-life and don’t let them interfere with each other by keeping them apart – that’s compartmentalizing.
But when you have only one, there isn’t any separating to be done there.
Understand? If you still don’t, then is on you – at least I’ve made my point and a few others get it. So you can go ahead quibbling about semantics if you like.
Saint Stephen 42
Helen said: (#2)
But what he wrote was rather narrow-minded. He says he tried to approach women and managed to have them let their guards down – “but it has never led anywhere in the end.” And both he and Evan then appear to place the responsibility for this not just on the women Dan met, but on smart, strong, successful, single women more generally.
Maybe Evan and Dan came to such conclusions because Dan’s targeted niche are the smart strong successful women.
See here; Sg said: (#1)
I cannot lie, that describes me exactly.
I won’t say that Evan or Dan are completely wrong in their assessment about the smart strong successful women.
Ruby 43
If a woman wrote in and said that she was meeting smart, successful guys who seemed too busy for a relationship with her, would she be told that, yes, you’re right, the men out there need to make some time for her? No, she’d be told not to bother with these “alpha” types, and to change her strategy.
Women are working harder than ever because, in this economy, just like men, they have to. Women often have to go the extra mile in order to prove that they can compete with the guys professionally, anyway. Smart, strong, successful women realize that they can’t depend on a man to take care of them.
Would a man ever consider quitting his job in order to find a partner? I don’t think so. And if you have time to work out “for 6 years 3-4 times a week”, are you really all that busy anyway? I don’t get it.
To Dan: unfortunately, sometimes “busy” is simply a euphemism for “just not that into you.”
And to EMK: if your clients are only “vaguely open to a relationship”, then why are they going through the time and expense of hiring a dating coach?
Christie Hartman 44
My take on the OP’s letter is that it has little to do with women being too busy for love, and more to do with him and his own perceptions. Both he (and Evan) are making some pretty big assumptions based on little more than one man’s “intuition,” further based on some interactions at a few parties. What are you going to do, rule out every woman in the 36-44 range who has a full life, under the assumption that all these woman are like Evan’s clients?
I once met a man – 38 and never-married – who asked me how to handle a woman with a good career and income. “What can I possibly offer her?” he asked in a defeated tone. Uh, a LOT! Some guys feel like a successful woman doesn’t have room for a man in her life; others dislike women who have no career or hobbies because then her life is all about him. In one way, women are no different than men: when they want a relationship, they WILL make room for it, no matter how busy they are.
Jackie 45
I agree with Christie#44. A woman who wants to be with a man WILL fit him into her life, I don’t care how strong, smart and successful she is. The OP is getting the same excuses a woman gets from a man who is not interested. “I’m so busy, blah blah blah.”
Soul 46
@Ruby:
I can see where you are coming from, but at the same time your comment is an exact reflection of the point EMK is trying to male I think. When you go to the gym 3-$ times a week for several years, YOU get to set the time and frequency. You can change your appointments. And 3-4 times a week are a pretty low frequency for two people who want to form a couple.
The reason why I have decided to give up my job for a while stems from the fact that it is extremely hard to understand what “making time” means otherwise. At least it was for me.
The only reason I found out the meaning of “making time for the right guy to enter the door” is because that after a while, I needed company so badly that I decided to take a (female) roommate. She was a secretary in a dental office. Gorgeous women, not particularly smart or successful at work (she was extremely smart in another way though).
And then, because we were leaving under the same roof, I could compare HER life to MY life. Not only her life to mine; but I compared her life to the life of my friend who is a lawyer (and lonely), that of my friend who is a member of Parliament (and lonely), that of my friend who is a female ambassador (and lonely)…and none of my single female friends seemed to offer what my roomate was willing to offer to anybody she met: HER TIME, AND WITH GRACE.
She did not really care if the relationship was going anywhere ( I am not saying she was sleeping with all those guys); she was eager to get to know people around her AND men. She used to go to 4-5 dates with the same guy even if she was not interested in him romantically speaking. Just for fun. As for me, I know after date 1 to date 3, I would just decide that I did not have enough time to spend with a looser…
Dan 47
@Helen, #24 and #36: no, the letter was not made up.
* * * * *
I was the OP that sent it to EMK. Since Evan was good enough to provide his thoughts, I am grateful. I am now posting to authenticate that this letter was indeed real.
It was worthwhile to see the comments.
Too bad the responses are evolving towards some strong emotional reactions, and towards where some people are taking things very personally. Sadly, I feel the dating scene seems to have conditioned our reactions into this way.
To finish on a positive note, it’s great to see Soul #10 following her heart. Eliciting a good story is a pleasant additional surprise and reward to an act of sending in a letter itself! Good luck Soul!
Ruby 48
Soul #46
You have offered quite a long explanation, but I still don’t see your point. 3-4 times a week sounds like plenty of time in the early stages of dating to get to know someone, IMO. You can just as easily set the time of your dates as you can the time of your workouts, or so it seems to me. If you could have a female roommate, why couldn’t you have a male romantic roommate? You compare your roommate to your lonely single friends, but your roommate was single, too.
I don’t think one has to be dumb or unemployed to find love. It sounds like you had what others considered an “excellent” job, but you didn’t really like it very much yourself. That is really a separate issue from finding a man.
I hope it all works out for you, in any case.
Heather 49
@ Goldie:
That’s exactly it, I agree with you. When I was dating online, guys would read about my hobbies and mention that I seemed to have a pretty interesting life and friends. And I did and still do.
I resent the implication that we women should put our lives on hold for a man. I did that once, and got burned by it. Moved from my home area, gave up a job, friends, etc just for my ex husband and he turned out to be an abusive jerk. I will not allow that to happen and if a man cannot handle that, then he doesn’t belong in my life. If men are allowed to thump their chests and yell that we women shouldn’t try to change them, then it should be the same with us. We women have the right to have full lives, with family and friends and hobbies and work, and yet make that time for a special man.
Here it is 2012, and we women are being fed the same misogynistic crap, just in a different flavor. Jeez……
Heather 50
@ Dan #47:
What we “take personally” is your generalization that we women who are in our later 30s or so are too busy for a man or will not make time for them. If we women were to go around saying, “You men are all workaholics and you have no time for us”, well we’d be branded man-hating whiners.
I just resent double standards. That it’s OK for you guys to have full lives, play golf with the boys, etc. But we girls had better be at your beck and call or else we’re cold, selfish women.
You cannot have this both ways. And for your information, there are plenty of us women in this age group who are happy to include a man in our lives, if it is the right man, while still having a job and friends. If you continue to feel this way, my thinking is that you might be single for a very long time. I heard the same complaints come out of my ex boyfriend’s mouth, and from what I understand, he is still single, four years after our relationship ended. I’m just sayin.
Helen 51
Dan, glad to see that you are real. Thank you for outing yourself.
These responses you are reading are not, for the most part, “strong emotional reactions.” Certainly not from me; I’m already married. These responses actually formulate some good advice and insights for you.
If you didn’t get the relationship you wanted from those parties (leaving aside for the moment that they were only 1 month ago), think about what role you might have played in it, rather than automatically ascribing all the blame to smart and successful women. Maybe you weren’t a good fit for the ones you met. Like I said earlier, that is nothing to be ashamed of – it happens all the time. But that is no reason to blame those women, and then to generalize to all smart and successful women.
Is Soul’s post really “a good story”? I’m skeptical. Like Ruby said, it may be good if she had broader reasons for taking time off her job. But if it was solely for the purpose of finding a man, then… well, good luck to her. Nothing in her post 46 reassures me that this was a wise decision. But truly, I would be delighted if it did work out in the future.
lawyerette 52
Heather #49: “I resent the implication that we women should put our lives on hold for a man. I did that once, and got burned by it. Moved from my home area, gave up a job, friends, etc just for my ex husband and he turned out to be an abusive jerk. I will not allow that to happen and if a man cannot handle that, then he doesn’t belong in my life.”
But the way you keep that from happening is to not marry an abusive jerk. That was the problem, not that you gave up your life. Relationships require sacrifice, and a lot of men still expect a woman to make most of the career/life sacrifices. I think women have to decide whether we want a mate badly enough to make those tradeoffs, or if we’re going to hold out for a guy who thinks more progressively (but may not meet all of our other criteria, especially superficial ones) or if we’re okay being alone. I think a lot of women have chosen the last option, hence the marriage rates going down. It’s not so much an epidemic of women who can’t get married (as the media suggests) but women who don’t like what men are offering and are instead opting out.
Evan – a great article that maybe you want to do a post about: http://muslimvillage.com/2011/10/27/15806/10-ways-to-avoid-marrying-the-wrong-person/ Written from a religious viewpoint, but very broadly applicable, I think.
Helen 53
Ruby 48: “I don’t think one has to be dumb or unemployed to find love.”
Think what it would mean from a long-term evolutionary standpoint if the opposite were true.
Really? Are you sure about that?
Just kidding… your dry-witted comment had me laughing.
Lara 54
SS@41: Um, to recap the thread–you said that men are better at compartmentalizing than are women. Then you gave an example where women are compartmentalizing. I said that doesn’t make any sense. Now you’re saying that I’m not grasping the basic concept of “keeping things separate,” when clearly I do grasp that concept, as indicated by my demonstrated ability to look up words in the dictionary and understand their different–and separate–meanings.
What I do not understand is how you make the leap from “women aren’t good at compartmentalizing” to the women in the example being somehow posited intractably in one compartment or the other. Which, actually, someone who is good at compartmentalizing would be able to do.
And, there’s nothing wrong with semantic discussions. Words are how we communicate. Think about that.
nathan 55
Dan – What specifically was “worthwhile” about the responses for you?
I very much get the frustration you express in the letter. I am almost exactly the same age as you, and have had plenty of similar experiences. However, I would never lay it all on the laps of the women who appear – or are – too busy. Whenever I have had a long dry spell, I sit down and consider what I might be doing that isn’t working. Which doesn’t mean I wallow in guilt or shame, but it does mean that I take responsibility for my end of the dating stick.
Frankly, I think most of the female reactions to your letter here are very fair, and offer you an opportunity to reconsider your perceptions. In your letter, you seem open to the possibility that you’re misreading things, but in your response above, you come off somewhat dismissive. Furthermore, while I agree that Soul’s story is really nice to see, it’s also atypical, and so perhaps if you offered some other thoughts about the comments here, maybe the conversation would be enriched.
Janet 56
Lara 54: People use the “I’m not going to argue semantics with you” defense when the logic of their position is flawed and they want to get out of the discussion and save face. It’s not that their position is lacking validity, it’s that you’re being too pedantic by requiring that they say what they mean and mean what they say. Ha! It’s very amusing!
Lance2012 57
@Heather and Goldie. Presuming validation from online dating emails from men, would be misguided. Given the realities of online dating, many men would validate your necrophilia if they thought your picture was decent. That is not to say that you may not have a point, women’s activity levels are not a subject I can opine on, but I really see the subject of busy schedules as a proxy for EMK’s broader points (women having unrealistic standards).
Karl R 58
helene said: (#22)
“We are always hearing on this blog that men want to be accepted AS THEY ARE and don’t want women trying to change them when they get into a relationship. Yet here we have poor Dan apparently complaining that these women seem like they wouldn’t be prepared to change their lives to accommodate him”
On this blog, Evan repeatedly tells women that if a man they’re dating will not make time for them, he is not their boyfriend and he is bad boyfriend material.
Dan is taking the same advice that Evan gives to women and applying it to his own life. The women who don’t make time for Dan aren’t his girlfriends. He is wasting his time if he pursues them.
Furthermore, if they don’t make time for men in general, they are bad girlfriend material.
When I met my fiancée, she was dating a widower who she’d been attracted to for many years (since before his wife died). Near the end of our first long conversation, she explicitly told me that she wasn’t interested in pursuing a long-term relationship with me. She was interested in this man instead.
However, for the previous year, this man had taken her out on dates about once per month. He claimed that it was too soon for him to get serious, because his (grown) children wouldn’t understand.
I knocked this guy out of the picture by acting like a boyfriend. I spent time with her. I made plans. I carried through. By doing that, she figured out that this man wasn’t acting like her boyfriend … and she realized how much that “relationship” was lacking.
Unless you’re dating a man who has little relationship experience, he’s going to realize what he’s missing if you don’t make time for him. And if he’s a man worth having, he’ll know he can find someone else who will treat him better.
Soul 59
Loool
The problem with us, smart strong successful women, is that we often pretend that we are having a rational discussion, but in the meantime we throw in tons of arguments that are driven by our emotions (Notice that I have included myself, and I do not mean to insult anybody). It must be soooo difficult to coach people like us, we do not want to listen to what really IS effective vs. what WE would like to be effective…
1) I am a women so I share many of the opinions here. However, There ARE double standards. It is not fair, but it is what is. Get over it (or fight it, but don’t pretend they don’t exist and then be surprised when things don’t work the way you expect them to);
2) It is possible that we think we are making time, but that we are coming across like we are not to others, spec. to men. Ruby # 48′s comment is the perfect exemple… No Ruby, you CANNOT “just as easily set the time of your dates as you can the time of your workouts”. If you do that, you are not making time, you are trying to fit the guy into YOUR schedule;
I was just sharing my story, and everybody’s life is different. I am NOT saying that anybody should make the same choices as me. I am me and my choices are for me: I come from a different cultural background; I have plenty of degrees from different countries; I have, and I can, work in several countries; I can have the same or better money; There is no shortage of opportunities in my field; and above all, I thought I had made it clear that I only took a leave of absence: I can go back anytime.
I am not saying to imitate me, I am just trying to share the lesson that I learned through my experience, namely that: I THOUGHT I was making time for love, but I actually WAS NOT: without even realizing it, I just wanted love and men to fit into my schedule that was, on top of that, filled mostly with masculine energy….
@ Lara: Please re-read the posts and you will understand the compartimentalizing thing in this thread, because Saint Stephen is right and you are wrong. If you don’t agree with the words he is using, can you at least try to understand what he means and what he wants to say?
Sacha 60
I agree with Goldie #13, Helen #24 and Ruby #43. There is a lot off with this blog post….the letter, Evan’s response and Soul’s “story”.
? Oh, and did you kick her out of your house before you quit your job or after? While working you found time to go to the gym 3-4 times a week, go out with girlfriends, read books, read Evan’s blog, etc…. Clearly you had a lot of spare time on your hands. Yet you felt the need to quit your job at the age of 35?? And immediately met the love of your life? “Good story” indeed… as ‘Dan’ says! Oh, and nice touch with the “optimistic by nature” bit. Makes for a good excuse for all this folly.
“Dan” outing himself and “authenticating” the letter notwithstanding (yeah, I can “out” myself as Bill Gates!), the questions asked if flipped around m/f (as Evan often likes to do), would read “I am a woman wanting to date smart, strong, successful men, who are not interested in dating me or don’t want to make a relationship a priority. They blow me off with various excuses. What can I do to make them date MEEEEEEE (sniffle, sniffle)?”
Hmmmmm….what would Evan’s response be then? Oh, wait, we don’t need to speculate. We KNOW what it would be…. It will be something like: LEAVE THE ALPHA TYPES ALONE! FIND SOMEONE WHO WANTS YOU! See here. But of course now Evan can’t say that, because the alpha types in this question are his clients. Don’t let a little inconsistency get in the way of a good story, heh, Evan?
Next. Soul…. tsk, tsk, tsk. Where to start with that “story”? The whole thing does not sound rational at all and sounds so contrived.
Quitting a job at 35 to find love? I just met a 36 year old guy with a PhD in Economic, last year made redundant from his City (London) job in derivatives. Can’t find a job yet. There are still hordes of investment banking people and other finance professionals looking for jobs. The ones who get jobs accept much lower pay than they used to get 3-4 years ago. My ex just took a 30% paycut. Curious in which part of the world Soul lives.
Professional considerations aside, Soul allegedly goes home to “an (extremely well-decorated) empty house”. But oh wait! It is actually not completely empty. It’s where her dentist’s receptionist (but just as well could have been another low-paid, beta-female profession) roommate entertains a precession of men, with whom she goes on 4-5 dates just for the sport, even if not romantically interested (Hey, what do you know?! That’s another thing that Evan preaches!). Soul, couldn’t you have had one of your roommate’s many rejects
Contrived.
Janet 61
Nathan 55: You are so cool.
Karl R: Exactly.
Soul 59: So, this dropping out of your professional life worked? We’re waiting for the punchline. We know you feel good about your decision and are advocating that others follow suit. But you don’t have a boyfriend, and you don’t have a job now, either.
Ruby 62
Soul #59
< “just as easily set the time of your dates as you can the time of your workouts”. If you do that, you are not making time, you are trying to fit the guy into YOUR schedule;>>
I disagree. We all do have schedules and lives, and we have to accommodate each other. I don’t think we women can, or should, always be completely available whenever a man wants to see us. Not practical, or desirable, for most of us. For cripes sake, even the The Rules dating bible told women not to make themselves always available to men.
< < There ARE double standards. It is not fair, but it is what is. Get over it (or fight it, but don’t pretend they don’t exist and then be surprised when things don’t work the way you expect them to); >>
I also disagree that we all must accept a double standard just because that is the status quo for some people. I have plenty of married women friends who had busy, full lives before they married, and continue to have them. Their husbands managed, and still wanted to marry them anyway. Some men actually like a woman who has her own life.
I agree with others who’ve posted, that if you want to have a relationship, you must make time for it, whether you are male or female. And if we meet someone we really like, most of us will.
Helen 63
Karl R 58: again, it’s not as simple as that. Dan wasn’t merely following Evan’s advice and dropping these gals. He was painting ALL “smart, strong, successful single women” by the same broad brush, just because things didn’t work out with the few he’d met. See the original letter.
If it were merely a matter of his saying that these women would not make time for him, and thus he didn’t pursue them, then OK – absolutely the right thing to do, along what you and Evan have stated. But he should note that what Christie Hartman said in 44 is the truth: “In one way, women are no different than men: when they want a relationship, they WILL make room for it, no matter how busy they are.”
This is true of smart, strong, successful single women too. When they find a man whom they deem worthwhile, they will happily find ways to make time to be with him.
No insult intended, but: Can’t we just use Occam’s Razor here? Instead of saying that, because these few women didn’t follow up with Dan, ALL brilliant women are bad girlfriend material, can’t we instead conclude that these few women weren’t sufficiently into him, end of story? Why is that so hard to believe? I run into people every day who aren’t into me. So do most others. Let’s not make this more complicated than it is.
Lara 64
Soul 59: I do understand what St Stephen is trying to say, even though his trying misses the mark. I also know what compartmentalizing is. It’s not that difficult a concept. I just disagree with him, which is different from not understanding what he is trying to say.
I disagree because SS has offered no persuasive argument that 1) men are able to compartmentalize and women are less able, 2) that the women in Dan’s letter are compartmentalizing, 3) that the women in Dan’s letter aren’t compartmentalizing, 4) that if they are compartmentalizing that it is a problem for them, 5) that if the women are compartmentalizing that it is a problem for Dan or any other man, 6) that compartmentalizing is a problem for any man or woman who does it, and 7) that compartmentalizing as a broad concept even pertains to the discussion.
Also, the so-called “brain science” behind the sex difference chatter in the popular press (such as “men are able to compartmentalize and women aren’t” and “men are rational and women are emotional”) is very fishy. Read Delusions of Gender: The Real Science Behind Sex Difference (2010) by psychologist Cordelia Fine (BA Experimental Psych, Oxford; MPhil Criminology, Cambridge; PhD Psych, University College London) if you want to learn more. The book takes on a lot of the “brain science” myths that have made their way into the popular press. Though if your world view has a big stake in “hard wiring,” guaranteed that you won’t like it. If your world view doesn’t have a big stake in “hard wiring,” you’ll find it hysterical.
You can also read about it here:
http://www.salon.com/2010/09/07/sexism_neuroscience_interview/
Stacy 65
Soul… it’s good for you that you learned to enjoy life and found a guy you really like.
I am sorry but I don’t find your story even mildy inspiring though.
Being unfriendly, unsmiling, masculine, developing unhealthy eating habits, etc., all the characteristics of “Soul with a job” is simply called being stressed and tired to the point of being unhealthy. Maintaining your emotional health in addition to your physical health (gym!) is very important, and if that is not done one may end up in an emotional equivalent of an ICU: a 2 years sabbatical. This is hardly a good example to follow.
When not working is not an option, as is the case for most people. you need to learn to take care of yourself on the emotional level to not end up being that overworked and miserable. Some people meditate, some do kickboxing, some take spa vacations some do skydiving, etc. None of this has anything to do with finding love though. It is possibe to be a happy person while working.
Stacy 66
And on the subject of the letter – I personally don’t think women are “too busy for love”. I think that their single lives are so darn good and comfortable that most men would not add any value to it, so they’re simpply not interested. As SATC character once wondered, “are we the new bachelors”? Yes, they are. Men have to deal with it like women did in past generations.
JB 67
Off topic……….
Congrats to Evan for winning “Best Dating Coach” at the 2012 iDate Awards!!
Woo Hoo !!!!
Saint Stephen 68
Ok Lara, I’m going to clarify for the last time using Merriam Websters dictionary.
I’d also like to point out that your ability to look up words in dictionary actually says nothing about possessing a good grasp of diction and semantics and how to effectively convey their various interpretations.
Merriam Websters Definition: to separate into isolated compartments or categories.
Merriam Websters example: He compartmentalizes his life by keeping his job and his personal life separate.
Note how he compartmentalizes by not letting his job interfere in his personal life, by keeping them apart. If our hypothetical man didn’t have a job would you still say he was compartmentalizing his life by refraining himself from getting one? By making such ridiculous argument that’s exactly the point you seem to be making and the funny part is that you haven’t realized it yet. Frankly, I think you’re just arguing for arguments sake – not because what i said made no sense.
Soul 69
@ Stacy: I totally agree with you. That’s exactly what I need to learn for the future!
Soul 70
@ Sacha:
I am not looking for validation, I am not offering any guidance, I am trying to share a lesson that I learned for myself that I thought was related to the post.
My story might sound “contrived” to you, but it is true. People are different, and this is an immense world. If everybody was thinking and acting like one, then only one person would suffice on earth.
Gem 71
My best friend is a “strong, successful” woman. She has a demanding job, large social circle, volunteers regularly, takes care of her own home–you get the picture.
She recently told me that her long term goal is to be happily married, and she wants to/does date but often says to me “I don’t know where I can fit a man into my life.” Sure, she’d like a date on that rare night off that isn’t filled, but what man is going to wait around for the call that says, “Okay, 2 weeks from tonight, I’ll pencil you in.”?
She says, she doesn’t “need” a man for anything (as a self-sustaining dynamo) but, hey, one would be nice, and fun to have around sometimes.
I think Dan has run into women like my friend. Amazing, talented, fun, exciting, dynamic women who are too damn busy for a man even though, “one would be nice sometimes.” I think that what Dan means by “vaguely interested in dating.”
I don’t find this an indictment against these women but it is a reality out there that some women have carved out this lifestyle. It’s not an indictment of Dan either that he’s noticed this phenomenon and wonders how to navigate his dating world.
I think his letter was respectful and merely voiced his experiences. Some of the negative, defensive responses spouting “why should a woman change anything for a man?” seems to validate his real life experiences, and the attitudes of these “strong” women, frankly. Clearly the vibe he’s getting. Balance is key as has been mentioned on this thread. Women (and men for that matter) can’t expect to fill their lives so completely that a partner gets the scraps. Dating takes time, relationships take time.
Soul —
1) I am a women so I share many of the opinions here. However, There ARE double standards. It is not fair, but it is what is. Get over it (or fight it, but don’t pretend they don’t exist and then be surprised when things don’t work the way you expect them to)
You’re so right on with this.
Saint Stephen 72
Stacy @66
If what you said was actually correct, Evan would be out of business.
K 73
I don’t know any super busy women who say they want to date, but don’t make any time for it (the one’s Dan complains about). I only know women who pretend to be that busy when they don’t want to date someone (including me). I’m willing to accept that these women exist since Evan talks about them and other posters claim to have friends like these women. My mom would probably describe me as super busy/too busy for a man type, but that’s just because I don’t like getting into all the details of my life with her so with her and lots of other people I let them assume I am just too busy. I have a ton of girlfriends, live in a big city and I would probably characterize most as strong/successful/busy. But for most that just means they are single and fill their time with activities and they hope some of these activities will introduce them to men or to new friends. I have lots of hobbies and a busy work schedule, but when there are good dating prospects I have made time for several new dates a week. I’m more than happy to skip out on a work-out or a girls’ night out for a fun date prospect. Most friends I know have several nights just to themselves. The only ones I know who are busy a solid 7 days a week are either going on a ton of dates, have a boyfriend or hate to be alone so they fill up their social calendar. I’m just saying in my experience and that of my friends we will surely make time for a guy and in fact spend plenty of spare evenings just talking about them.
Dawn 74
I’m 36, have a full-time day job and work just as many hours per week trying to get my dream career off the ground. The rest of my time is filled with friends and hobbies. The only way I could make time to date- once I realized it had to be a priority- was to put the friends, hobbies and extra classes for my career on the back burner for a while. I was still in touch with people but they knew what I was going after and so every spare evening was devoted to meeting, corresponding with and dating the men I found online. It became my second job. It only took a few fast and fun months of that before I found my guy. We’re now living together, I didn’t alienate any friends, my dream career has picked up and the rest of my life has balanced out very nicely. I’m happy I made dating a priority for a while so that I may now reap the rewards.
Still-Looking 75
If a person truly wants a relationship, he or she will take the time and make the effort.
If a person is comfortable not being in a relationship, he or she can fill every waking hour with family, friends, work, chores around the house, and hobbies. Some of these people might even post a profile online talking about how busy they are. Then before the first date and during the first date they can make small talk about how busy their lives are. Some might do this to subtly push away those they are not really interested in. Other times the date might assume either a lack of interest or not be interested based on the frantic lifestyle.
If a person wants a relationship, that person needs to make the time for dating and communicate that a relationship gets high priority. If not, it’s like the person who “says” they want to get in shape but doesn’t put forth the effort and make time to actually get to the gym – 6 months later the person is still out of shape and friends/acquaintances rightfully infer the person is not serious about getting into shape (or forming a relationship).
Ellen 76
First, congrats Evan
Re women who are wedded to their careers and maybe unwilling to compromise: Most likely love is simply not a priority. Self expression is. And you must remember how STRONGLY women are socialized to mate, have children [their very identity according to society whilst a man though not ideal can be a bachelor if absolutely necessary] love by its very nature requires compromise. So a solution is she moves for him [job opportunity], then he perhaps moves for her and so it goes.BTDT
Problem is, men just tend to be more dominant so are able to persuade the women to compromise.
Nonetheless, if you really crave love, you will find a way to compromise. That’s why Hollywood marriages never last: If you are richer than God and lionized constantly you aren’t particularly enamored of sacrifice.
Read this bio sometime: A Vindication of Love by Christina Nehring.She sacrificed everything for love. Few men do that probably. I mean, what percentage of men are house husbands?
Sarahrahrah! 77
@Dan:
I’m wondering….
if all of the childless, 36-44 year-old successful women are too busy for you,
why haven’t you tried dating women with children? Can we really be all that bad? Are we really that unappealing that we don’t even necessitate mentioning because it is understood that we aren’t an option?
it’s funny — the reason I got married in the past was because I actually like having a partner and being in a long-term relationship. Unlike some never married women and/or childless women, I have shown that I can make a commitment to another and also nurture my loved ones.
I don’t need anyone to raise or pay for my kids. Is it just that most men do not want to be around other peoples’ kids which leads to the outright DQ of women with children across the board?
These are honest questions that I think are worth exploring.
Lance2012 78
@sarahr #77
Again, I am not Dan, but I feel qualified to answer for him since my target demographic is the same. I will date a woman with one child under the age of eight. But I want to have a family, I just do not find it plausible that a woman with more than one child or a with a child over the age of eight would want to have another child. Curiously, my online dating searches find that it is fairly rare for women with one child to express interest in having another child, or perhaps they have just all gotten skimmed out of the database by quick acting men. I meet a woman with one child in the real world a few weeks ago, I expect to see her again in a month, I intend to ask her for lunch or something, but I find it hard to work ‘do yo want another kid?’ into the conversation.
Beyond that, the stresses of being the quasi dad and the concern that you might become that guy that gets wrongly accused of inappropriate behavior around ‘her’ kids are not insignificant.
chivonh 79
@Gem #71 and Soul
Soul —
1) I am a women so I share many of the opinions here. However, There ARE double standards. It is not fair, but it is what is. Get over it (or fight it, but don’t pretend they don’t exist and then be surprised when things don’t work the way you expect them to)
You’re so right on with this.
I agree wholeheartedly that society’s expectations are not going to change. No matter how hard we wish it to be otherwise, this is the reality we need to face.
To the posters who think it’s unfair that there are double standards. I think you might need to consider this: Life isn’t fair.
So we could bemoan that life isn’t fair for the next 20 years while staying single, OR, we could work around it.
Analysing my happily attached friends, I realise that they and their partners all started out as friends. They got to know each other over a period of anywhere from 3 months to 5 years before they were together. And during the time, they allowed the men to befriend them, be there for them. By not rejecting or devaluating the men at first glance, they encouraged the men to express their interest through actions, and didn’t stop the friendship/courtship just because the men haven’t reached the peak of their careers or weren’t mature/classically handsome or masculine.
People who want to be attached don’t spend their energy bemoaning that a relationship shortchanges them in some way.
Of course sacrifices need to be made. That’s how your parents brought you up, and how you established your high-flying career. But that never killed anyone, did it?
The main thing is, you should WANT a relationship for its own sake, and not because it will be THE ANSWER to ALL your fears and misgivings about life.
Also, if you’re still hurting from past emotional wounds or you find yourself always blaming the men for being a lousy date/lousy man, etc, I’d advise you to overcome the past hurts first before dating. Dating requires you to be open to your intuitive sense of what’s right for you, and unwarranted negativity always clouds our judgment of what we really need.
Evan Marc Katz 80
I just got back from 4 days in Miami and am amused by the turn that this thread has taken. Not only is there a remarkable misinterpretation of what I actually said (many ideas inferred that were not actually implied), but we even have our very own conspiracy theory (Thanks, Sacha!) Well done. Nothing makes my case better than when women like you offer nonsensical retorts to logical statements like “busy people who don’t make time for dating will have a hard time finding love”.
To sum up:
ANYONE who doesn’t make time to find a relationship risks being alone forever. Switch the gender and this article makes just as much sense. In fact, Dr. Drew’s Loveline asked this very question tonight about men choosing career over love.
Alas this blog is for WOMEN to learn what YOU can change to better find love. Blaming men for being fat or lazy or busy or hypocrites may ALL be true; it’s just not a particularly useful thing to say to me, given that I’m not giving advice to men.
So foolishly continue to bash me as a misogynist – me, with the close sister, mom, wife and clients I support for three hours every afternoon. Really, it doesn’t hurt me because it couldn’t be further from the truth.
You know what will remain true? If you work 50 hours a week, train for a marathon, hang out with only girlfriends, family and married people, you’re not going to be available to meet men, nor be a good partner for the quality ones who prefer an available girlfriend. And it doesn’t matter how many shitty inattentive men you’ve met in your life – blaming men doesn’t change your situation. Love will most likely elude you if you don’t make time for it. That’s what Karl and Gem and Dan were saying, I presume.
So please, stop missing the point of the original post. Being unavailable isn’t a woman thing. It’s a people thing. You just happen to be a woman.
Evan Marc Katz 81
Oh, and thanks to all the person who congratulated me for winning Best Dating Coach at the iDate Awards. You’re a class act, JB.
Sacha 82
@ EMK #80
And thank you for addressing me personally, though you can see that there were a number of commenters and I was not the only one to think that this blog post and some of the responses read like a wind-up.
Glad you are amused
No conspiracy theory. It’s all very straightforward. You are here to sell a product and you use all available means. You post a blog and invite comments to generate traffic to your business. You get comments. Some agree with you, some disagree. For you, either way is good. Serves the purpose of generating clicks. Your blog is not here out of altruism or service to society, it is an advertising medium with the specific purpose of selling your ideas. Simple.
Does anyone actually believe that all advertising is based on true stories? That tv ads are actually documentaries? Obviously for your business’s advertising needs readers’ letters are very helpful and you can pick the ones that serve your purposes. However, in this particular case the letter seems so off that as Helen said it really seems like it was made up as a springboard for you to again hammer in your point that women should make an efford and time to FIND a man. And you are our friendly neighbourhood dating coach who can help with that, right?
Nonetheless, obviously, all of us that are your readers benefit from your blog posts (even if just for reading other people’s comments and experience), otherwise we wouldn’t be reading it. I also give you full credit that you have distilled your ideas about relationships to several very simple concepts. I agree with most of them, they are plain common sense. But I am actually here to read ideas that I do not immediately agree with, both from you and other commenters. They are the ones that can actually make a difference to me. I am sure I am not the only one that thinks that way. Therefore you get challenged mostly on the ideas that your readers disagree with. It you are interested in actually helping your readers (as opposed to just generating clicks) you answer the questions posed in the comments. Sometimes you do. Mostly to defend yourself. (I understand your frustration when you feel you have been misinterpreted and you have to reiterate over and over what you mean.)
But you sometimes choose not to answer a pertinent question which challenges something specific in what you have written. Obviously you only choose to answer the questions that serve the purpose of advertising the ideas that you sell. You ignore questions that not only do not serve that purpose, but make you look not so good in the eyes of your existing and potential clients. For example Ruby asked in #43: “And to EMK: if your clients are only “vaguely open to a relationship”, then why are they going through the time and expense of hiring a dating coach?” In another thread I asked you what the benefit was of being your private client, as the advice you had given a woman did not appear to serve her well or be in her best interest. You also chose not to answer that specific question.
I would have thought that for anyone to hire a dating coach, one would not necessarily have exhausted all other avenues, but would have at least tried a number of other strategies first. That means the person is actively looking and pursuing a goal, in this case a relationship. After all, one only gets help (and pays for it!) when one needs it, right? So, what makes you think that your clients are only vaguely open to a relationship? And don’t tell me that you base that assumption on the fact that some of them may speak vaguely about it, or have full lives with family, friends and hobbies. We all know that if something is important enough to us, we make time for it. I don’t think anyone can dispute that.
Lorenzo Valdez. 83
“Are Smart, Strong, Successful Women Too Busy For Love?’ Depends if they’re stuck up or not. Most of them got their high-heels up their asses. On the other hand i must be fair and say I think the other percentage of these women are really looking, but hiding in their routine due to fear. Which is understandable and to be underwstood by us if were gonna get anywhere, (easy does it).
Sorry if this is too close to the bullet, but it’s my ‘naked’ opinion.
Heather 84
EMK,
Let me be clear. I never labeled you as a misogynist. Talk about misreading.
However, I have a real problem with men going around saying that we women aged 36-44 are too busy to have a boyfriend when nothing could be further than the truth. And as some of the other posters have said: some of these women could have been saying this to Dan to say nicely: “We’re not that into you.” If we women truly do want a relationship, we’ll make time for it.
Yes, this is definitely a forum for us women to learn what to do better. But to be told one thing, that we need to live our lives, but then told no, you have to be less busy to find a man, but then turn around again and get criticized by men for “being clingy, needy, too available” is very frustrating.
My goodness. I dunno why you’re so offended when we women get annoyed by being broad-brushed.
Helen 85
Evan 80: much of the time, when we comment, we are not necessarily commenting about the advice you specifically give. We are commenting about the original letter or about others’ comments. In this particular thread, that seems especially to be the case.
We don’t comment about your advice because most of the time, we agree with it, so there isn’t anything to discuss. You mention in another thread about how “telling” it is that people didn’t comment on it, and I think that may have been the wrong impression. We don’t comment because we agree with you, and it’s not too interesting to have a string of comments “I agree.”
Evan Marc Katz 86
Sacha,
A reasonable question deserves a reasonable answer. An unreasonable question deserves an unreasonable answer. So when you feel I’m being unreasonable with you, I’d encourage you to understand my motivation.
You’ve already heard my unreasonable answer to your unreasonable suggestion that I may have “made up” a question to “hammer” home my theories to “sell” my services. It’s silly, it’s patently untrue and it doesn’t deserve a dignified answer. It’s impossible to disprove any cockamamie theory because if you’re inclined to the most cynical worldview, you can simply say that you don’t believe me when I’m telling you the truth. That’s your prerogative. It’s my prerogative to ignore you, cut you down or delete you because you’re wasting my time and poisoning the spirit of this blog, which is to help women.
Which brings us to your next point: the idea that I do this to actively sell something. Please, do me a favor and go back through the past five years of blog posts and tell me how many times I’ve actively pushed with strong sales copy for you to buy my dating coaching services. I pretty much give advice and assume that if you want more, you can click to the top of the page. So, as I see it, this blog is an advice column with an active community of bright women who are in varying states of openness to my message about understanding and connecting with men. My hypothesis, of course, is that, as a man, I can do a better job of telling you what men want than you can yourself. Which is why every argument about how I’m wrong kind of drives me batty. I’m not wrong about my feelings; and, to be clear, you’re not wrong about your feelings. But if you’re struggling to have a relationship that you want and you insist that it’s your way or the highway – and your way isn’t getting you results, you might want to make adjustments.
And that’s why I blog – give away free dating advice three times a week – to help women make healthier and more EFFECTIVE relationship decisions. Would you rather be right or would you rather be effective? In my universe, being effective goes a lot farther than being “right” in your mind. You can disagree with me all you want – but what I won’t tolerate is someone who questions my experience, my understanding of men and women, and my motives for doing this. You’d be hard pressed to find another guy who WANTS to talk to women for three hours a day for 8 straight years. So to put up with the slings and barbs from women who take offense when my advice tells them to adjust is somewhat annoying.
If I were to give dating advice to men (because god knows they need it!) and my advice to them was “Women are wrong. Women need to change,” that would be the most asinine advice in the world, don’t you think? What’s a man to learn from someone telling him that the OPPOSITE sex has to do something different? NOTHING.
This isn’t a forum for venting about men. You want that? Go somewhere else. This is a place for women who love men, believe in men, see the best in men, and want a healthy relationship with a devoted and kind man. For the most part I weed out the wrong women; some stick around to argue with me. I don’t understand why.
Is my blog a marketing tool? I suppose. But if you knew about the thousands of emails I get from strangers who found love without ever buying one single product from me, maybe you wouldn’t be as cynical about why I feel so passionate about my business and my worldview.
To your final point about my clients only being “vaguely open to a relationship”, I’ll make it really simple for you with an analogy:
Why would someone sign up at the gym on January 1st, if she doesn’t truly value losing that extra 25 lbs? It’s not my place to say. But millions of people sign up for a membership and quit within three months of doing so. Apparently, one part of them wanted to take action, but the other part of them didn’t want to do the work to change.
If you’re a reader, you’re presumably open to my message, but you want to remove the parts that you don’t like. That’s fine. You will probably never invest in one of my eBooks, CDs or coaching programs. You will also cling to your worldview which may possibly be holding you back because it’s not based on a true understanding of men. It’s not that no one finds love without me; no more than no one can lose weight without a trainer. It’s that a trainer can certainly help. And if my job is to help, and you don’t want my help or want to question my motives or techniques, I’m perfectly fine with you finding someone who is more congruent with your worldview that successful women don’t need to change; in the new world order, men are going to change and start to value women who don’t give them what they need.
Good luck with that.
Ruby 87
EMK #86: <To your final point about my clients only being “vaguely open to a relationship”, I’ll make it really simple for you, with an analogy:…>
The reason I asked this question is because you said that ”almost all” of your clients are only “vaguely open” to a relationship. It isn’t that I’m surprised that some of your clients might hire you even if they are not really serious about finding someone, it’s that you say that almost all of them feel that way, and that I do find surprising.
Also, plenty of “average” women are very busy, and only vaguely open to a relationship, but only the “smart, successful, strong” ones are hammered on about it. Could it be that smart, successful women really are more desirable despite their flaws?
Evan Marc Katz 88
Great job, Ruby. I’ll pose the same question about men: “Could it be that smart, successful men really are more desirable despite their flaws?”
And the answer to both questions is YES – they are more desirable. But just because they’re desirable does NOT mean that they are better PARTNERS. That’s the fallacy.
A man isn’t a better husband because he’s tall or rich or funny or brilliant. You’re just more ATTRACTED to him. Same with women. Good qualities come with bad qualities. And we can add one more quality to really smart people – inability to admit when they’re wrong.
Sacha 89
Evan,
? If you claim your expenses as deductable, you agree that your blog is sales-y. If you don’t claim them, you should! Your tax authorities will agree with me 
), they find they don’t enjoy it, they want to lose the extra lbs doing some other activity, or …whatever. The point is they quit. Your “analogy” would only be an analogy if you were talking about former clients of yours who have quit not only your services, but quit dating and looking for a relationship. Clearly that is not the case for people of either gender who are looking for a relationship with the right person, whether they use a dating coach or not. If the wrong person comes along (Dan?) it is counterproductive and time-wasting to get involved. Move on. But you are clearly not talking about clients who have quit. You say that “almost ALL of [your] clients” are “vaguely open to a relationship”. Think it through and you will see that the situation is not analogous.
Thanks again for the personalised reply.
Firstly, regarding this particular blog post, we have to agree to disagree. I think you have taken an opportunity to again hammer in the idea that women have to “make time to FIND a man“. You disagree with my assessment. Fine.
Regarding your blog being a free dating advice service. Yes, it is true that it is free, obviously, just like billboards on the streets are free to view. But you are still selling a product with your blog (and of course you are right to!), there is no need for there to be a link to the services you sell. Your blog is very much “sales-y” and you know it. Come on. The costs of maintaining your blog are tax-deductable, aren’t they
And nobody is arguing that what you are doing is not your passion. That is clearly the case and good for you! But you undermine your credibility when you claim it to be something else than it is.
Your analogy about the gym does not hold water. If someone joins a gym and “QUITS within 3 months”… they QUIT. They have changed their mind, they no longer think they need to lose the 25lbs (found a man who wants them just the way they are
Finally, no, I do not want to “remove the parts I don’t like”. As I said above, these parts are exactly the reason why I read your blog. What is the point of reading ideas that completely agree with my worldview?? It does not happen often that I disagree with you, though, and I never comment when I agree with you, which is most of the time. But let me reassure you that you are helping me most when your worldview disagrees with mine
Keep up the good work!
Ruby 90
EMK #88
<<A man isn’t a better husband because he’s tall or rich or funny or brilliant. You’re just more ATTRACTED to him. Same with women. Good qualities come with bad qualities. And we can add one more quality to really smart people – inability to admit when they’re wrong.>>
I agree that everyone has both good and bad qualities.
Evan Marc Katz 91
@Sacha – There. Now doesn’t that feel better?
Sacha 92
Evan #91
It always felt good for me. Was it not as good for you as it was for me?
No, seriously, I wouldn’t bother commenting if your advice was not striking a cord with me.
Soul 93
@ Sacha:
Many overweight people sign up at the gym FOR A FULL YEAR and quit after a very short time. Then, the next year, the sign up AGAIN… Your argument does not hold.
At any rate, it is extremely common knowledge that one part of people wants sth, and the other part does not want to go through the painful changes that are needed. common knowledge about human psychology
PS: then again you will always find research that says the contrary, that’s the very business of researchers, so please do not throw the baby with the water
Nic 94
Mr. Katz,
Thank you for providing free advice and insights on women and dating. I read your blog and take away helpful advice. If I have differing opinion on an issue based on my personal experience, I take it with a grain of salt. At the end of the day, it is a win-win situation. It is a learning process either way.
@ Cynical Reader/s:
Expressing disagreement in opinion is one thing. Questioning Mr. Katz motives and integrity is another.
Sacha 95
Soul #93
I know one such overweight woman who has been signing up for the gym every year and doesn’t actually go and then sighns again the next year. Do you know why she does it? Because her private health insurance pays for it and she has to sign up. However, they cannot make her use it
The reasons people quit/don’t use gyms don’t matter. The important point is that these people QUIT. Evan was talking about clients who are active. That is precisely why Evan’s “analogy” does not work and why my argument holds
Evan Marc Katz 96
Sacha, you’re really straining yourself to try and contradict me. It’s not working, precisely because I know my clients better than you know my clients. When a woman pays $5000 for dating coaching and then refuses to get online because she’s too busy, doesn’t prioritize making time for dates, and would rather climb Mt. Kilimanjaro than date men (an actual quote from one client), they’re not being active in love. They’re active in every other aspect of their lives and very often would sooner be alone than to change their dating behaviors. They’re not bad people, no more than people like me who taper off at the gym or guitar lessons are “bad”. It just means that neither of us will improve in an area that we originally stated we wanted to improve.
Which is the original point of this post. Love doesn’t find you. You find it. Make time to meet men and you increase your likelihood of finding love. Expect men to drop into your lap in your office or on your yoga retreat and you may be waiting a long time. As most busy women can probably see for themselves. This isn’t a criticism, per se. It’s an observation.
Diana 97
To Evan #88, ah, but a “truly” smart person has the ability and the humility to admit when they’re wrong.
Sacha 98
Hi Evan,
. Wouldn’t dream of trying to suggest I know your clients better than you. But thank you for finally answering what you mean by “almost ALL” of your clients are “vaguely open to a relationship”.
Not straining myself, I am in fact having a lazy week due to illness, but am getting over it, so soon won’t have time to post and contradict you
Interesting that you interpret the things that you have listed, i.e. refusing to go online, not prioritizing time for dates and preferring to climb Mt. Kilimanjaro as “vaguely open”. There could be other very obivous explanations. And even more interesting that “almost ALL” of your clients refuse to go online (but overall not surprising, and the lame excuse of being too busy should have been a hint in itself) and don’t prioirtize time for dates (with men they are not interested in, surely!). If that is indeed the case, there is nothing to argue about. But it is very telling if almost all of your clients do that, don’t you think? Not a ciritcism, just an observation, based on the information you have kindly provided.
Ruby 99
Ironic that people who are able to shell out 5 grand for date coaching aren’t actually open to dating…is “being in a relationship” just another box they have checked off on their “to do” list?
helene 100
I think its called “displacement activity” – you sign up for dating coaching rather than actually going on dates, but you can tell yourself you’re “doing something about your love life”. Many people do the same sort of thing for other areas of their life that they are sort of unhappy about but not motivated enough to actually change – they watch cookery programmes on TV rather than actually cooking, or read “change your life” books rather than changing their life, or yes, buy a gym pass rather than actually taking exercise. In fact, people even repeatedly visit the doctor rather than actually trying to get well – it allows you to give the impression to friends and family that you’re taking suitable steps to solve your problems without actually making any changes! So no, it does not surprise me that people would pay a lot of money for dating coaching then be sluggish about putting any of it into practice…. Moving out of your comfort zone is always effortful, and so doing something somehow related to the change you should be making, without actually taking the bit between your teeth and doing it , is a soothing alternative.
Still-Looking 101
Helene@100
Great explanation and I believe that is the “vibe” that Dan is picking up on. I’ve felt that vibe before and i must confess that since I don’t have a compelling urge to enter into a relationship, I too probably give off the same vibe.
sarahrahrah! 102
@ Lance2012 #78
Thank you for your explanation. Interestingly, I have a younger and an older child and I would still love to have another baby even though I am forty years old.
I understand your concerns about being with another person’s children, but if you feel comfortable with kids, know that you are not “creepy” and trust your girlfriend, being accused of being “weird” with them should never, ever be an issue.
Good luck on your quest for love!
@EMK
Sorry for slightly veering from the topic and CONGRATULATIONS on your big win! You deserve it!
Ruby 103
helene #100
Right, I get it, but almost all EMK’s clients, and all the women that Dan has been meeting in the 36-44 age range are not actually interested in a relationship? That’s a bit hard to believe. Plus, 5k is a lot more money to shell out than one pays for a few self-help books.
When I go to my gym, alot of people are actually working out there.
amy 104
Hey Ladies,
I’m a bit late to this discussion, but as I recently moved to New York from LA two years ago, I can tell you that Evan is soooo right.
Everyone here is sooooo busy all the time. They have no time to even make plans with me, except three weeks in advance. I don’t know how they have time to meet a man even for a date.
About me: After my high powered job in LA ended, I moved to New York for three months to try it out. As my time was ending in NY, I met a man and decided to stay. I soon got a job here and we moved in together. Now, I don’t know if the reason that it worked out because I was in a new city, with less of a social network, less of an important job, more room for someone. I hadn’t met someone in LA for 8 years! I was very very busy in LA.
Look, I totally understand why a woman keeps busy. Who wants to sit around waiting for Mr. Right? Who wants to be crushed when a guy you like doesn’t call you back? We all know the reasons for creating this life, but once in a while you cross the line and make your network and life sooo busy there is no room for a man.
So what does that mean in practice? Not necessarily quitting your job like Soul could afford to do. Or moving cities. It might mean taking one less class, or saying, I’m just going to make my life less full. I’m going to leave my weekends open for parties and dates and yes, I might feel a bit lonely and vulnerable sometimes, but don’t you understand? That’s the space that a man will come into. You can’t make space for him once you meet him. It’s very hard.
In Law of Attraction, they tell you if you sleep in a single bed or double bed, to upgrade to a bigger bed and NOT sleep in the middle. It’s LITERALLY making space for someone else to come to you. You don’t wait till they come to make the space. You make the space for them to come.
If this doesn’t apply to you, no need to take it personally.
Soul 105
@ AMY:
I am loving your post. It perfectly describes what I wanted to express, i.e. what I was feeling in my former life, the vulnerability that came from having no “busy-ness” to take care of afterwards, and the space that this vulnerability has created for the right man to want to make me happy and want to enter my life.
Goldie 106
@ Amy:
“It might mean taking one less class, or saying, I’m just going to make my life less full. I’m going to leave my weekends open for parties and dates and yes, I might feel a bit lonely and vulnerable sometimes, but don’t you understand? That’s the space that a man will come into.”
Okay, I understand leaving your schedule less full in order to have more energy, or more flexibility with more time, but to make space for an abstract man? How about making your schedule more flexible instead, so it isn’t full of drop-dead mandatory commitments you cannot cancel? Instead fill it with activities that you can move, cancel and shuffle around if needed. People in my meetup groups totally understand when I tell them I won’t be around for a while, as I had to make room on my schedule and meetups seemed like the most rational thing to remove from it. Or here’s a novel idea! how about looking for a man that likes to do, if not all, then at least some of the things you like doing? Then the two of you could do those things together and you don’t have to stop doing them to make room for each other.
“You can’t make space for him once you meet him. It’s very hard.”
No it isn’t. I could write more, but I’ve got to go meet up with my man now
amy 107
Good for you, Goldie, as I mentioned in my comment, if this didn’t apply to you, that’s great! I don’t know where you live, but here in New York, as I see it, my friends don’t even have flexibility in their schedule to hang out with me, their good friend, even more so, little flexibility to make room for a man they barely know.
I suppose the key word is flexibility, but as we get older and more set in our ways, that quality is harder to come by. All too often I see women so in love with their full lives as it were, that they don’t have time to meet or date a man.
Sure, it seems counterintuitive to buy a queen-size bed when you’re only one person in hopes that a guy will come to fill it, the same way it seems counterintuitive to make room in your life by making it less busy for a man who isn’t there yet….
And yet, nature abhors a vacuum. I can promise that if you make the room in your life for a man, he will come. And I’m not a dating coach nor do i have any vested interest in saying it.
Goldie 108
@ Amy, I guess what didn’t sit right with me after reading your first comment is that, I’m highly skeptical of anything that is supposed to work by magic. Buy a bigger bed, then one day you’ll wake up and there’ll be a guy in it. Cancel your class and stay home, then one day, I don’t know how, a man will come into your life. Men are not unicorns! There’s always a rational explanation to what makes them come into our life and stay in it, or not.
I’ve actually always wanted to buy a big bed, but for a practical reason – if you’re single and occasionally dating, there’s pretty much a guarantee that one day you’ll bring a guy home, and trying to fit a big man into a small bed can be very awkward! There’s also a rational reason for not overfilling your schedule, as you say in your last comment – “All too often I see women so in love with their full lives as it were, that they don’t have time to meet or date a man.” This is exactly what my girlfriends told me, except the way they put it was “if you don’t start dating soon, the single life will suck you in”. But, at the same time, sitting at home waiting for a man? I’ve seen my college roommates do it. In the five years I knew these girls, none of them got a single date by staying in their room and wishing for a guy to come into their life. And that’s in college, when all you have to do to get dates is pretty much have a pulse.
Bottom line, from my experience, if something sounds counter-intuitive, look for a rational explanation. If you can find no rational explanation for something, then it’s probably not a good idea to do it.
“I suppose the key word is flexibility, but as we get older and more set in our ways, that quality is harder to come by”
I guess this depends on a woman and her experience. Personally, after years of raising kids, I’m pretty much used to being prepared for my entire schedule to change at a moment’s notice. At this point, I’ve had so much training, it comes naturally to me.
happygirl 109
I read this post and would admit that pretty much describes me. But you know what I was in a marriage for 13 years. I put a lot of effort into the marriage to make it work. I took responsabilty for the fact that I had not made the right choice concerning a life partner. I got divorced and I am thankful and happy about that decision every single day!! I enjoy the peacefulnes in my home. Now as for finding a man…not so easy. I guess I have my life carved out now and like the life that I live. So I would honestly say that I am no longer looking for a man in my life. Maybe that will happen later…and if not…well that is fine too.
amy 110
@Goldie, if you have kids then you are probably a flexible person. I also think that Evan was talking about a certain urban single woman who has never been married or had kids.
Also, who ever said anything about “staying home and waiting for a man?” Clearing your schedule might mean going to more singles parties or readings where a man might be. Obviously, one should not center their lives around the possibility of meeting a man or only doing things where a man might be involved (I have a lot of those friends too), it’s just allowing for the time, space and place to actually allow a man to enter.
But you sound like you have balance and flexibility.
Betsey 111
SS@68: I agree with Lara. Like the original poster, you’re assuming that these women don’t have a love life, when neither of you knows anything about these women. You don’t know if they’re compartmentalizing or not or if they’re good at it or not. You know nothing about them.
Andrew 112
If a woman isn’t available… then she’s not attractive.
Is this hard to understand?
Saint Stephen 113
@Betsey
If you did read I and Lara string of comments exchange – you’ll notice that wasn’t our original point of argument. Since our argument wasn’t whether men are better compartmentalizers than women, but on my use of semantics, i don’t think I need to refute anything, it will only serve to prolong the thread.
Katie Martin 114
I’m not sure how I feel about this post. I mean, yes, many successful women are often extremely busy which makes them have a harder time finding free time for dating/relationships. But I also really agree with Helen (from the very beginning of the comments!) when she was talking about how having dating be difficult doesn’t mean that stereotypes need to be made. Couldn’t it just be that although Dan is attracted to these women that they aren’t actually the right person type for him? Also, it might just be that although he could very possibly be a nice and charming guy, maybe he isn’t the women’s type. That’s nothing against him, just bad luck. It seems a little forward to just start assuming that someone is not datable just because they are busy or picky. A lot of people are that way, whether they are a successful business woman or not.
Mack 115
Ok men do like women that have decent good jobs and college education but what I think men mean by women being too successful and busy for love is single men take that as they won’t MAKE any time for men and dating. A lot of single women use their work, successfulness as an excuse to say I’m toooooo busy, don’t have time. Of COURSE YOU HAVE TIME!!!!! Anyone can MAKE TIME to fit in dating. So I think single men that see women as too successful and busy think that a lot of these single women will use that as an excuse and keep (figuratively) blowing off men. I think a lot of men are tired of a lot of single women that use the I’m too busy excuse and a lot of single men are like meh why even bother with them cause she will use the I’m too busy excuse. Also I think a lot of men don’t like a lot of single women that are too successful because to a lot of single men too successful women translates into the Miss know it all, the I always got A’s and rub it into peoples noses, the ultra competitiveness, the cattiness. Men don’t like that in women, it’s a huge turnoff for men. At the same time men do like successful women as long as they leave that ultra competitiveness, I always got A’s and cattiness and the successful ladies are like yeah I have this great job but like egh it’s cool but they don’t make a huge deal about it… Something like that!!!