Are the People That You Want To Meet Online More Physically Attractive Than You Are?

Are the people that you want to meet online more physically attractive than you are?

Please respond in the comments below.

http://www.findingtheoneonline.com/

Talk to you soon!

Evan

Why He Disappeared is the smart, strong, successful woman's guide to understanding men. If you want to learn how men think, and rediscover how to have meaningful relationships - all from a man's point of view - click here to learn Why He Disappeared.

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92 Comments »Filed Under Online Dating

92 Responses to “Are the People That You Want To Meet Online More Physically Attractive Than You Are?”

Honey 1

I couldn’t go out with someone better looking than me. I usually date around the same, maybe +/- .5 on a 10-point scale. There are definitely personality traits that influence whether or not I find someone physically attractive.
Elli 2

I don’t want to date men who are better looking than I am. I have met men who do not post a photo but have an interesting profile. I find that I find any man more attractive if I truly like him. How I feel about a man’s looks changes as I get to know him.
Elli
JuJu 3

Certainly not.

In terms of the body build, they are almost always less attractive, as I already mentioned in the self-ratings comments.
JB 4

The term “physically attractive” is an opinion. What one person finds attractive another may not.
Doll 5

Although attractiveness is in the eye of the beholder, I tend to date the men I deem not necessarily ‘hot’, I like ‘Joe Average’, I just feel more comfortable with them. Therefore my answer is a definite “NO”
Evan Marc Katz 6

Seems that women don’t necessarily want hot men. But are there any average guys out there who want hot women? Or am I way off on this one…?
moonsical 7

Nooooooo…I tend to date my equivalent, if one can objectively judge that. I had the “hot” guy date me some time ago, and it was ridiculous. He owned the local bike shop and women were always coming in drooling over his blond locks and long eyelashes, asking to have their water bottle bracket adjusted or something silly like that. I would say I dated him *in spite of* his “hot” status. I think at the time I was considered, “hot,” as well, though I really could have cared less.

A little gray, a little balding, a tiny bit of paunch…I really don’t care. However, many men my age (42 today!) that are on-line seem to have totally let things go; some look as old as my Father! Can’t go there, sorry! I do wonder how they’ve been living to look so old, paunchy and tired already. One does not like to project into the future…

moon
Kenley 8

Come on, Evan,

Pretty much all guys want hot women. The problem for the less attractive guys on line is that hot women typically won’t give them a shot.

I do think there is a difference between hot and attractive. Perhaps women don’t want men who are smokin’ hot (I know this is wrong, but I am suspicious of smokin’ hot guys on line), but I think most women do want men who won’t make them gag. As I mentioned in a previous post, I don’t get lots of emails or winks, but even I won’t respond to a man that I find completely unattractive — but for me attractive is a 5 or 6 not 8-10.
JuJu 9

Happy birthday, moonsical.
Robin 10

It would be NICE!!!! Doesn’t happen often. BUT, as a woman, I get really afraid if a guy is too physically attractive, he’s gonna be causing me some major heartbreak, proven fact from prior experience. I just try to avoid them if they are too hot. I am pretty cute (so I’ve been told…that could be BS) but when a guy is too hot…uh-uh, watch out.
Adrienne Lewis 11

No, definitely not. I prefer IQ – the greatest male ornamentation
moonsical 12

Hey, thanks, JuJu! I am done wrestling with programming the VCR and on to making pizza for pals. Ciao!

On this question, it brought up whether men want the hotties because they will be ENVIED BY OTHER MEN, besides the obvious benefit of improving their personal experience, it improves their self-esteem. Is this true? In some ways I think men have a competitive ego in this area that women mostly lack. Sorry to be so gender-biased.

moon
Adrienne Lewis 13

I do have an ongoing casual relationship with a super hot guy. I don;t like him because he is hot though. I like him because he is a ball of warmth and love.

Women go nutty over him – waitresses, random girls on the street. One girl turned around when we were in a convenience store and just It’s like I wasn’t even there. I didn’t like it. I do avoid super hot guys because of that now, for sure. Not because of the guys so much (because frankly, I think they get a little bored of being gushed over like, just like pretty girls do) but because the girls are baaaaaad and I don’t deal with it well.
JuJu 14

I think it’s not the lack of ego (women may also want to show off), but, rather, the general inability to be in the moment that women exhibit (compared to men). They also think much farther ahead. I.e., a hot (wo)man may be not the greatest long-term prospect, but fantastic for the time being.
happygirl 15

I have to admit that if my eye catches a hot looking guy online I will look at the photo’s and read their profile, but very often I will not contact them as I feel they are most likely not in the market to meet a woman who is looking to seriously date someone. I feel guys like that are problably already swamped with women emailing them or like to play the field. I do like the way a man looks, but ultimately it is also what they write in their profile.Once we get talking it is also if he is charming, intelligent, has a sense of humor. Basically it is the whole package that makes me decide to contact them or go out with them .Most men I have been out with have been ranging from very good looking to average looking. I have to admit that men who have let themselves go as far as having a big belly would normally not attract me at all. It is for me a no no, but one guy I dated for a while was not at all physically in shape. We met and there was so much chemistry there that I thought he was just so hot. I did not even notice that he was out of shape anymore. To me it is more then just looks.
Karl R 16

I certainly wouldn’t avoid dating a woman who was “smokin’ hot”. However, I have turned hot women down (who contacted me) when they obviously hadn’t read my profile, or wrote e-mails with abyssmal spelling and grammar. Attractiveness isn’t my primary criterion.

I’ve dated women who were less attractive than me, but there was something about them that I found physically attractive.

One drawback to online dating, however, is there are a number of women that I find attractive in person, but unattractive in photos. My last serious girlfriend was like that. Unfortunately, I don’t have a good way to identify women like that online.
Lulubell 17

I think men are lucky because women tend to have a wider range of acceptable physical appearance that they find attractive. Men tend to prefer very pretty or hot women, even when they are balding and overweight. You see this in the media all the time, so many commercials feature a pretty woman with a basically unattractive “husband.”
I see a related issue in that many (or most?) men won’t even date a woman their own age. And many men who indicate they will date an older women I think just show that to appear open-minded and more attractive to women. I’m an attractive 49-year old woman with a good profile (been told that often) and I feel I must compete with women 10 years younger just to get the attention of intelligent, interesting, attractive men (not hot men, just attractive). When I hit 50, I’m going to drop off the radar.
A-L 18

Happy birthday, Moonsical!

To answer Evan’s question, some of them are but not all. I’d peg myself as a 6 (maybe a 7 on a good day) and I’ve contacted guys from a 2.5-9 (though I typically do 4-8). The text of a guy’s profile is the #1 thing that I look at. If it grabs my attention and I feel like we could be a match, then I’ll contact that person. If they’re really quite good looking then I’m actually a bit more hesitant because I don’t know if they’d be interested in me. Also, guys who look too done (tons of time spent in mirror & gym) tend not to appeal to me because they seem rather superficial. Also, if guys mostly talk about how they like to run, play basketball, and go to the gym then I’m not likely to e-mail them because that’s not how I live my life (though I do like a walk, bike ride, or some other outdoor activities). So the traditionally “hot” guys I tend to avoid, but if their profile is good enough, I’ll still contact them.
JB 19

Evan, you don’t think women want “hot” men ?? Put up a “hot guy” recon profile and just watch what they do …..LOL It’s hilarious !!

I’m an average guy who occassionally emails a hot woman but I just do it for kicks. I don’t ever expect a response but occasionally I’ll get one.
The woman I’m dating I would say is my “equal” on the looks/status scale and I’m very comfortable with that. I laugh when she tells me about all her responses she’s gets and I told her I know every guy that’s responding to her because they’re responding to my woman recon profile with the same exact emails and winks ..lol
Sheryl 20

Evan, I don’t think you are off. Judging from men I know and get email from, it seems most tend to shoot really high. To answer your question, I’d say no, I don’t narrow my search to more attractive men (giving up all the conversation about what it means, how we judge, etc.).
Alice Wiley 21

WOAH!!! Who says women don’t want to date hot men?

To answer the question, no, I don’t try to date people more attractive than me. But I am really hot. And I definitely don’t want to date people less attractive.
Zann 22

I don’t think I’ve ever stopped myself from contacting a man because I thought he was too attractive for me. I consider myself attractive, but most men my age are simply no longer in the “hot” category, and that’s okay with me. I tend to be attracted more to interesting looking men than to guys with classic good looks. I don’t need a Ken doll. And, as others have said here, if a man has a great personality, he becomes more attractive to me the more I get to know him. Chemistry is a tricky thing, but I much prefer an average-looking guy who is interesting, kind, and funny to a good looking guy who’s either boring, shallow, arrogant, or self-centered.
hunter 23

I think, all men would want to date at least one “hot” female.
hunter 24

on post #13,

I have had men come up and talk to my “hot” date, almost as, if I am not there. These women have handled the situation very well…..
Cilla 25

I have no problem considering a man who is “hotter” than me, but usually when I read his profile after being lured in with his pic, I find there’s no there there, if you know what I mean, just vapid nonsense. I think so many of these men have been able to ride on their looks that they see no reason to post any kind of substantive profile. If it keeps working for them, I guess they see no reason to change it, especially the ones who are not interested in long-term relationships and just want casual physical connections. I don’t read women’s profiles very often, but I suspect the same practice goes on with the 10′s in that gender.

BTW, I used to never contact a man whom I thought was hotter than me, even if I did manage to find a great profile attached. This summer, however, I took a few chances and wound up dating men whom I thought were 9′s and 10′s (and judging from their website stats, so did other women). When you polled your readers about their own looks, Evan, I think I put myself down as a hard-won 7, and still think often of myself as a 7 or 8. But those handsome guys I dated recently? All of them told me unsolicited that I was “hot,” “gorgeous,” “a 10 in my book,” etc.

I think many women tend to underestimate their attractiveness, for one thing. For another, I think I have relied too much on the opinions of other women to derive my sense of good looks. (Do we sabotage each other out of unconscious competition, or do we just have different standards than men?) The last man I dated told me he couldn’t believe I didn’t think I was a knockout, that I absolutely oozed sex appeal. I’ve heard that from other men–perhaps it’s just something only the opposite sex can see in me? I’ve always believed that being comfortable in one’s own skin adds to one’s sexiness–now I believe it more than ever. And of course, beauty is still eternally in the eye of the beholder…
Jane 26

I don’t try to date men that are prettier than I am. I am looking for someone who is living an interesting and adventuresome life. I have dated hotties and they do get tired of the attention they get because of their looks because it is superficial and not about who they are as people.

But–it is fun to see a man enjoy the little ego boost he gets when the heads of other men turn because he is with me. Men like that a lot and it’s fun at the time and also doesn’t mean much in the bigger picture.

Give me a guy with some confidence and intelligence—now that is hot!
Amy 27

I’d contact a guy if I liked his profile regardless of whether he is hotter than me or not. But if he were really hot… bonus! I’ve met just as many shallow guys who were average looking so I’m not as certain that good looks indicate a lack of character.

So I think its probably a 50-50 for me. Though, if I’m going to be completely honest, while I’m good at judging character… I may not be as good of a judge on whether other people (or he) would consider himself more attractive than me. Take for instance the last two guys I dated seriously… they were both really good looking but were they hotter than me? I honestly don’t know… I know we were mutually attracted to each other. I know they were good people…
Kenley 28

Wow, all the hot and sexy women on this website make me feel like such a loser. And, unfortunately, there is nothing I can do to go from a 5 to a 10 — damn those inferior genes! Perhaps on-line dating really is only for younger, beautiful people.
The Inbetweener 29

In terms of “looks” my height alone (5’5-5’6) makes me “unattractive” to most females that I find attractive – no matter how great a personality I have (or think I have). MOST women are just not willing to compromise on that issue. So, I feel that it’s only right that I NOT concentrate on “looks” so much as to personality. Which ultimately, matters more to me in the long run anyway.
hunter 30

hhhhmmmhhhh, ok, Where did I hear that most confident, intelligent men are Wealthy and live in the neighborhoods? LOL!………
hunter 31

….they live in the nicer neighborhoods?….
hunter 32

….he, he, he,…hhhmmhh, single,confident and intelligent women that live in nice neighborhoods are out there!…..somewhere…LOL!…
Anna 33

I’ve dated men who were better looking, less good looking and equal. All has to do with chemistry – the man I was most attracted to was less attractive. Ever hear of this quote – Some men love with their eyes but most women love with their ears!!
hunter 34

to Anna on post #33,

According to therapists, the larger pool of single women, no longer select men with their ears……..
JB 35

Well Anna most women MAY “love with thier ears” but they “like with their eyes” (especially online…lol) and if they don’t “LIKE” what they see
they can care less what you have to say.<– I’m talking about mainly online dating here.
Andy 36

WOW, this can be a sore subject with some people! I do think men have a different prspective than women do on this subject. I would say that i do not specifically seek women that are hotter than me. I go after women that i’m attracted to and think they might be on the same level as i am. I think one person being much hotter than the other person can be a recipe fo disaster. It can lead to bad feelings. But as a guy i would like to know when i do email a woman who i think i would be compatible with, what’s the reason for her lack of interest. Sometimes i do wonder that maybe i’m shooting above my head as far as looks goes. I think that’s natural for anyone. I have been told that i am a goodlooking guy, and i do keep myself in good shape so maybe it’s just a matter of taste. Maybe we all overthink this whole thing and if we learn to relax and comunicate honestly with each other, someone special will come along. Like it’s been said many times, it’s all a numbers game!
Andy 37

I’m feeling compelled to respond to Lulubell’s comments. First of all i do agree that unattractive, fat, out of shape men have no business emailing attractive, fit, fun women. Let’s be honest here, society tells us that a match like this will not work. It would be the exception not the rule. As far as the age issue goes, i’m a 45 year old man who has been told that i’m goodlooking, probably a 7-8, and i keep myself in good shape. I usually date women in their late 30′s only due to the fact that women my age seem so old. They look much older than me, act much older than me, and we have little in common. I actually would prefer to date a woman my age. We grew up during the same time period so we would have had the same experiences. And then there is the kids issue. Women in their 30′ have kids that are very young and it can be difficult finding some quiet time together. Women my age have older kids that are either out of the house or high school age so getting away for a spotaneous weekend can be a reality. I have recently made a concious effort to find women my age or older that would be compatible. So for me i would say that dating a younger woman isn’t an ego issue. It’s just has been a matter of taste
The Inbetweener 38

Is beauty not in the eye of the beholder?

Is it not also how one perceives beauty?

What does “less or more attractive” really mean anyway?

You might see someone as a “9″ – I might see that same someone as a “7″ and they might see themselves as a “5″, but when they open up their mouth to speak, that number could change.

Does anyone concur?
moonsical 39

Interesting topic. I think there are many many many more women out there that “keep themselves up” than men. I also consistently see couples on the street where the man looks much less attractive than his woman. There is a constant refrain from men that they are so, “young at heart,” or, “young for my age,” that they *need* to date down–someone ten years their junior, at least. For this reason they also defend manipulating their age in their profile. I’m sure women use this rationale and strategy as well, but I think much less often. My experience with persons older than myself, btw, is the women get way wackier and funner and the men get grumpier and less fun…I believe they’ve actually done studies on this.

Personally I don’t get it, because the common generational experiences are so great, if looking to partner for keeps. I know when I’ve dated younger men (6-9 years younger) there’s a sort of, “generation gap.” Sometimes I think men are more afraid of their own mortality, and this is the root of pursuing the babes. If they can look at “young” in their mind they still are young. But it doesn’t help that statistically men don’t last as long. After going to all the work of finding a mate, I don’t want to be alone again, prematurely.

Those are just my thoughts…

moon
JuJu 40

In my personal experience, the men who claim to look younger than their age (and some are convinced they look 15-20 younger – why, I can’t possibly determine) are all grossly deluded. Some of them, in fact, even looked older than their age.

Both sexes, I think, should leave it to other people to judge how old or young they appear.
Cilla 41

@ moonsical:

I agree with you–I see many couples where the man has not kept himself up the way his partner has yet he runs his mouth off, saying things like, “I should be dating supermodels,” or “I should have a hot woman on my arm.” I call it According to Jim syndrome (hot wife with dumpy, overweight guy).

Regarding dating younger men: as a woman of 47, I find men in the 35-45 range have little interest in me (they are either happily married with small children, divorced and looking for 20-somethings, or single and looking for 20-somethings). In spite of the lack of common ground, men younger than 35 are much more willing to date me. I’ve had some fun relationships with guys in their late 20′s, who are much less hung up on the age difference than their brothers who are 10 years older.
Lisa 42

I never cared much about looks, its inside that counts, and the way they treat me, BUT recently I dated a guy with a smokin hot body, and now I melt just thinking about a great bod.
hunter 43

to Andy on post #37,

Some of those fat, bald, men, have fat, check books, that, make them look very, attractive to women. Women with long necks, and small waists, stay married to fat, men, mostly, because, they live a nice, cozy, life, and have all the material things they need.(some have boyfriends on the side)
hunter 44

to moon on post #39,

I’ve been told that, women, through out most of Europe, date younger men. Supposedly, a very common practice.
moonsical 45

Alas, if I were only interested in *dating*…not mating for life. Yes, the younger men are very fun, energetic and enjoyable. But so far, that is where it ends…we have been at different stages in life.

moon
Dana 46

Some are and some aren’t. But men (and women) are a package. No man has ever looked the same to me after I got to know him. If I get to like him and he turns me on, he becomes so devastatingly handsome I’m shocked. If we don’t connect, he appears a bit cracked around the edges to me, even if he could be a model.
Joe 47

Karl R, I find it somewhat ironic that you turn down women with “abyssmal” spelling…
hunter 48

to Dana on post #46

Women all over say what you said. Men are different, we admire a womans figure all the time, through anger, frustration, laughs, no laughs, etc…..
Secrets of Women 49

[...] Are the People That You Want To Meet Online More Physically … – men won’t even date a woman their own age. And many men who indicate they will date an older women I think just show that to appear open-minded and more attractive to women. I’m an attractive 49-year old woman with a good profile (been … [...]
GeekGoddess 50

Interesting. I am frequently told I am very attractive, have great hair, and look about 10-12 years younger than I am. But I’m 54, and when I’ve tried online dating sites, most of the guys that respond to me are retired age. I’m still going strong, I run a business and have a great income. I’m also about 30 lbs overweight, which will keep some men from asking me out regardless of my IQ or face.

Men my age who are at a comparable social/income/educational level can afford those -15 year women – they are looking for second trophy wives. I have nothing to offer them, apparently.
Karl R 51

GeekGoddess said: (#50)
“Men my age who are at a comparable social/income/educational level can afford those -15 year women – they are looking for second trophy wives. I have nothing to offer them, apparently.”

Why are you limiting your search to men your age who are at a comparable social/income/educational level?

Why do you need a man with a comparable income? You have “a great income.” Do you need a second income to maintain your lifestyle? It sounds like you could support a stay-at-home spouse if you chose, or one who earned significantly less than you.

Why do you need a man with a comparable educational level? Of all the conversations I’ve had with my current girlfriend (or previous girlfriends) less than 5% involved topics where either one of us have any formal education. More often we’re discussing topics of interest which we pursue as a hobby.

Why do you need a man who has a comparable social level? One of the directors at my office (who is about 40) grew up snaring and skinning rabbits for food, milking cows, and doing numerous other activities that would seem more appropriate to an earlier century. He’s quite capable of fitting in with coworkers who grew up in households with parents who were academics or professionals.

Why do you need a man who is your age? My girlfriend is 16 years older than me. By the time I reach your age, she will be retired. (She will also presumably be my wife long before then.) I realize it would be convenient if we were substantially closer in age, but it’s hardly a dealbreaker.

It sounds like you’re focused on traits that you don’t need in a partner. More importantly, I don’t even get the impression that you’ve considered why you want those traits in a partner.
Kurt 52

I know a guy who is skinny and weak, yet he is always attracted to athletic women who often have broader shoulders than he does. He is routinely disappointed when those women don’t go for him.
Zaq 53

@38 In Betweener
“Is beauty not in the eye of the beholder?”

NO NO NO – Can someone put a sticky up or something ?

Men are very consistent on what they consider attractive

Worse, you will be compared to the average 25 year old
Anyone still think they are a 7 ?
Most women making comments here are going to be a 5 at best.
But hey – thats average. Most people are average

Also lets ignore womens ratings of male attractiveness. If they think he is a 5, that means he is probably a 7 in reality. However women do have some consistency on which men are considered ‘hot’

And lastly, why on earth should men look as attractive as women ? Wealth, status, intelligence, sense of humour must be factored in as these are extremely attractive to women. If a man has any of these qualities, the women will have to be much more attractive to be “equal”

As George Clooney said – strange, I didn’t find women attracted to me when I was a struggling actor, waiting tables !
Ruby 54

Zac #53

We all looked better when we were 25, both male and female. There may be an “accepted” standard of beauty, but other things fall into play when you actually meet and get to know someone. A man in his 50′s is very unlikely to date a 25 year old, so what’s the point of comparing a woman in his targeted age range with a woman so much younger? And are you actually saying that women can’t be as intelligent, funny, or financially secure as men, so they need to be better looking to compensate?
Goldie 55

@ Karl #16 – you probably realize by now that “abyssmal spelling and grammar” is an oxymoron Sorry, I’d ignore this if it came from anyone else, but you, my friend, are being held to a higher standard Wait, I see that Joe @ #47 already beat me to this…

You’re dead on in #51 though – I’ve met amazing people that had no education past high school, were out of my age group (both too old or too young), etc. These days, I’ll give anyone a shot if they sound interesting enough in their initial email, because I’ve found I may be pleasantly surprised. Education-wise, I meet a lot of people in my generation and older that grew up in economically disadvantaged families, married early, and had kids early, and so didn’t get a chance to go to, or finish, college. They’re highly intelligent people nonetheless.

On the subject – I’ll pass over a man that is severely overweight, as it creates certain lifestyle limitations. Other than that, anything goes. From my experience, a guy can be really, I mean really bad-looking, but, if he has a personality that fits mine, is smart, funny, fun to be with, then after a few dates I’ll stop paying attention to his looks. He will look attractive to me. Heck, given enough personality and humor, he’ll look like a perfect ten to me. I just went out with a guy where, over the duration of our date, my view of his looks went from “WTH is this?” to “wow, he looks great!” Likewise, a guy can be smoking hot, but if he doesn’t have enough brains or personality to go with that, he’ll end up being physically unattractive to me.

Caveat #1 – I’ve met physically unattractive guys that have issues related to how they look. Meaning that, while I see them as a person, they see me as “a hot piece of ass” i.e. a status symbol. That is a deal-breaker – I don’t want to be objectified, not even as a “hot piece of ass”.

Caveat #2 – I do realize that men are wired differently than women and to them, looks are pretty high on the list, so I try to look nice and keep in shape. Can’t change their nature.
Zaq 56

@ Ruby #54

Of course women can be intelligent, financially secure etc. But men put little value on those things, and indeed in some cases these things can have NEGATIVE value for men.
Men are attracted to women that look fertile. Doesn’t matter how old they are.
Men still have more options because even considering this they are far less picky than women.

I guarantee that most women commenting here would not even consider a man on average earnings. They have written off half of all men before they even consider the other factors.
I suggest you read the comments from women throughout these blog posts. The constant complaint of insufficient decent men.
Not too many complaints from the men though are there ?
Ruby 57

Zaq #56

Has it occurred to you that men have more options because of what you refer to as the fertility aspect? It is much more socially acceptable for older men to date much younger women; not so for older women. I don’t think that some women are more focused on a man’s earnings simply because they are shallow, but because women still tend to make less money than men, but have greater responsibilities in terms of child care. Maybe men are less picky because society allows them to be. But if, as you say, men are so focused on looks, then aren’t they the ones who are actually too picky and shallow? Shouldn’t they be more focused on qualities like intelligence and character?

I also think that men can be very frustrated with dating, as it sounds like you are. They just don’t tend to complain about it the way that women do.
Nicole 58

Zaq #56,
I’m not sure how productive it is to insult all of the women on the blog or in the world either.

I mean, you’re on here so I’m guessing that you are looking for answers for your own problems or dating frustrations. It’s frequently mention on this blog that men need help but ask for help less often than women. Hence, the seeming focus and large number of commenters who are women. I would not infer that this blog is full of ugly losers looking for tricks to find and trap men.

I’m not sure why the need to be so hostile and call all of the women who read the blog average/ugly (since you said that you bet that all of the women commenting were only 5′s at best) or shallow.

I’d say that the whole money issue varies based on generation. Not everyone here lists ages, but some of the female commenters sounds like older women (40′s and up) who have ben married and divorced once.

I just mention it to point out that fewer of them perhaps went into higher paying professions, more of them would have stayed home to raise children, and yes more of them are used to the model where women stay home, or if they work they make less.

I think that there are other reasons that higher earning younger women look for similar earning men, but that reason isn’t always because they are shallow golddiggers. Some of it comes from how you get treated by men who feel odd that you have more and are better educated. So yes, we don’t get credit for being all of those things that you mention, and some people actively resent you for them. So personal preferences aside, some people might find it easier to look for people who make similar money and have similar backgrounds.

And since people love to exclude people based on “lifestyle limitations” as Goldie put it, I’d say that I prefer someone who does not have to PAY my way but rather can afford to join me in the same things that I like.

It’s probably not a fair assessment to make, because just like Goldie, I’m assuming that someone cannot do something that they may well be able to do. It’s all a matter of priorities. The rich guy may not want to spend his money on things that I like and the poor guy might make it a priority in his budget if it’s something he enjoys, just like the heavy guy might be into and good at the things that Goldie is assuming he can’t possibly physically do.

Beauty and attraction are important, but it’s also subjective. What is ugly to one person might be gorgeous to another, even if we have media that promotes only a handful of looks.
Zaq 59

Ruby

I’m playing a bit of devil’s advocate here. But there are certain realities that we should be aware of. There are plenty of studies that have been done which you can find on the net, including youtube videos which explain what attracts men and women. It has absolutely nothing to do with societal values, and everything to do with evolutionary psychology.

Doesn’t matter how much a woman earns, she still wants a man to earn as much or more. Does that make women shallow – not at all.
Are men shallow to want younger women ? – definitely not.
Its how they are wired, they can’t help it.

The important thing is to acknowledge this truth and work with it.
And this is what I dont get with comments made here.
Most of the talk is about lowering your standards so that you have half a chance of forming a relationship.
Surely the best way is to enhance those qualities that the opposite sex most values, so that you have better options.

As encouragement, I will just add that as I pointed out on another blog here, I know personally plenty of women who have married men much younger and in some cases DECADES younger than themselves.
The one thing they had in common – physical attractiveness
Zaq 60

Nicole@58

To say that most women are average is not an insult. Do you not agree that on a scale of 1 to 10, half are going to be under 5 ?
When did “7″ become average ?

I will admit to some frustration that women feel the need to come up with some excuse as to why they need to disqualify the majority of men.
They were born with the need to seek out strong healthy mates with proven ability to provide resources for the tribe and her family. Most men dont cut it. That’s how it worked 100,000 years ago. Thats how her brain works now.
Men are attracted to beautiful women because we are. No excuse necessary
Jadafisk 61

“Surely the best way is to enhance those qualities that the opposite sex most values, so that you have better options.”

But according to you, men value youth and fertility - qualities that are largely unattainable once they’re gone. The ways to enhance those qualities as they fade – or the appearance thereof - are either drastic (surgical procedures, hormone treatments) or largely ineffective. (lotions, potions, pills and notions)

In a world where the vast majority of men will never, ever be “rich”, and the vast majority of women will never be storied beauties once or 19 again, people manage to pair up more frequently than not. The vast majority of people are “reproductively successful.” People of either gender actually aren’t disqualifying the vast majority of members of the opposite sex because they’re less than perfect, or pretty much everyone would be single and childless.
Goldie 62

@ Nicole #56:

“And since people love to exclude people based on “lifestyle limitations” as Goldie put it,.. because just like Goldie, I’m assuming that someone cannot do something that they may well be able to do.”

Oh boy, I really need to spell it out, don’t I? Alright, here it is – my legs don’t go that far apart for longer than five minutes. I’ve tried. It hurts. Guess this makes it my lifestyle limitations then. I’m cool with that. I’m not physically fit enough to date a guy that’s over 100 pounds overweight. I’ve got no problem admitting this shortcoming of mine.

Additionally, a twelve-mile hike may also not be an option, but on that one, I’ll agree with you, life is full of surprises – you never know.
Joe 63

@ Zaq #60: technically, if you assume that the average coincides with the median, 50% of all people will rate as 5.5 or less on a scale of 1 to 10. Conversely, 50% of people will rate 5.5 or higher.
Nicole 64

@62 Goldie,
Well, thanks for spelling it out. It was easy to assume that you were assuming that you could tell what someone could do physically based on their size.
My point is that if you require that your partner be physically fit b/c you love to bike, hike, run, etc., then invite him or her out to do those activities before you can assume that he/she cannot. It’s just that a lot of people who can’t climb a flight of stairs are assumed to be super healthy b/c of how they look, and people who spend a lot of time being active are assumed not to be. I’ve been in fitness classes where people who are really skinny run away heaving after 5 minutes. Clearly, being active and physically fit is not why they are skinny. So one group of people gets a total pass when people claim that they need someone to match their lifestyle. So I’m not going to say that I prefer tall men b/c I like to play basketball, since being tall doesn’t mean that someone can or cannot play well.
If it’s an aesthetic preference, be honest about it. If it’s what you described, ditto. I can’t comment on the difficulties that those men have in bed, but if you’re tried and it didn’t work, then I can see why you wouldn’t want to try again.

So very off topic. But yeah, you just never know who is going to be attractive to whom. That’s the awesome thing about it. You might be ugly to someone you think is ugly or average, yet gorgeous to someone that you think is out of your league.

I really think age and income and education levels are better ways to screen(plus people do put their racial and body type preferences down too) b/c you just don’t know what someone finds attractive (unless it’s one of those people who posts pictures with what appear to be exes).
Zaq 65

Jadafish@61

This is a strawman argument. Where have I said that someone needs to be perfect to succeed ?

Your suggestion is that somewhere I have said that unless a woman can look extremely young and fertile, or a man can become very rich, then nothing inbetween will have any effect. I have said no such thing.

All I can see here are excuses for not taking the necessary action to make the changes that will have a real impact. I’m sure everyone will notice the two things you missed of your list that everyone can do, and which has a massive impact on how “youthful” you look.
DIET AND EXERCISE
Or put down the krispy kreme and go for a run. Every day.

I shall say it again. I know women that have married men decades younger and had children
Goldie 66

@ Nicole #64:

Hey, anytime

“I really think age and income and education levels are better ways to screen”

I’m finding that even these are not accurate enough, at least for my target group. I’ve met people older than my generation that I still have a lot in common with (though I had to draw the line at that one man who was literally the same age as my father. But hey, his income was listed as “150,000+”, so I guess in his mind it all balances out ) Income-wise, we’re still in a recession and bad things like layoffs do happen to good people. Education-wise, I’m meeting a lot of men in my age group who grew up in disadvantaged families, married early, had kids early, and as a result didn’t get a chance to go to, or finish, college. At the end of the day, I find that positive attitude is probably the most important factor. That, and you have to not bore each other to death. And you won’t find out all of this until you’ve at least talked to the person.

Of course, this depends on what a woman is looking for in a relationship. I don’t need to have a family again, and definitely don’t want more kids. Basically I’m looking for someone who’s a good enough match that we can make one another’s lives better, because by now we’ve probably both been through enough tough times, and deserve a break. Looks are pretty low on the list. Income is pretty low on the list. In fact, I’m new to this whole “living on a strict budget” thing, and won’t mind being with someone who’s on a strict budget himself, and so can commiserate or give practical advice. For an artsy/outdoorsy type, there are plenty of fun things to do together on a low budget, if both people are creative and open-minded enough.

Many women I know think the same way, so maybe Zaq needs to expand his search to include people like us Must be pretty depressing dating only “beautiful women” who in turn are only looking for a “rich guy”.

Lastly, ladies, is it just me or does anyone else here find it a turnoff when a guy lists his income on his profile? especially if it’s high? I didn’t list mine and put No Preference on his… Maybe I need help understanding why people would list it – I’m not sure if I know.
Nicole 67

@Goldie, I think they list it for the reasons that Zaq mentions. I never believe it though and honestly don’t care. I’m about formal education big time though. I don’t apologize for that but clearly if it’s not important to you that’s great and you explained why it’s less common perhaps in your demographic(age, geography, etc all impact the number of college educated men and women after all).

Men under 6 feet tend to add 2 inches to their height. I’ve never met a man who was under 6 feet who was honest about height. I’m 5’6 and find myself looking eye to eye with men who claim 5’8 or 5’10. They’ll claim women lie about body type but that’s a more subjective category than your height(it’s a bad move since men are visual and clearly get really angry/hostile if they disagree with your self-assessment. I’ve also met women who picked what they felt was accurate and got backhanded compliments about it-b/c of course, rude for a stranger to talk about your body whether it’s a compliment or not). It would be different if people had to list an actual weight after all. The claims about “lying” would be accurate. Not really fair to call someone a liar if they use an adjective you disagree with, but clearly your height is a real number. As is your income.

I’d personally subtract 25-50% from whatever some men claim for income. I’m sure it’s invariably inflated by people who think that other people care. Not sure if women who list it lie since we get told over and over that it doesn’t get us anywhere with men.

Yeah, I think it’s kind of generational. I mean, once upon a time, esp. before they had to “share” the workplace, men could get good white collar jobs without a college degree. Or men could get high paying blue collar jobs (I’m thinking of the auto industry, where I was an engineer for a good bit), that also paid really well. There were definitely older execs who had no degrees and had started there at 18, right out of high school.  By the time I was hired, an engineering degree was a requirement. But the lack of formal education that some of them have, combined with age, is why some of them will be low/no income or underemployed going forward.

Depending on your generation, a college degree can be a more or less common (more common now b/c of better access to money to help pay for it), and is probably more necessary to achieve a solid middle class lifestyle.

So yes, I can see how it would not be a dealbreaker if you are from a generation when it was less common and didn’t affect people’s earnings.

We are definitely in a recession, and that’s one more reason to be more or less open-minded about income b/c a lot of Baby Boomers are getting permanently shut out of their previous professions.   There is a big difference between being involuntarily (and hopefully temporarily) downsized and being a lazy bum by choice.

I’m not saying that education and income are the only or most important things, but I can say that I have more in common with the people that I’ve met SO FAR who share that with me (really I’m talking about education here). Funnily, none of the men my age that I know married down in terms of education or intellect (they are two different things after all). I think that to a certain set of men, it does matter. I can’t say they are a definable group though.

I think that a lot of the issues about income and wage disparity also affect a lot of older women more since they didn’t go into high earning professions as much, married early, either didn’t go to college or went and got married while in college or shortly after and never started careers. I’ve seen formerly upper middle class women who never had jobs suddenly having to scramble after divorces.

Now, things are a lot different. Women earn more undergrad degrees than men, and they even outnumber them in several grad programs (even slightly higher in med school now).   I can never remember if wage disparity data is corrected the time that some women leave the workforce, b/c if you aren’t in it, you aren’t there to get raises and cannot expect to come back getting credit for time you didn’t serve(it’s just not fair in any way to people, male or female, who didn’t leave).

I don’t need anyone’s paycheck and would never willingly give up mine, but I do want to meet someone who enjoys the things that I enjoy and can afford to participate in them. Also, my parents spent a lot of money educating my sister and me and it’s something that I’d do if I had kids, and wouldn’t want someone who thought that paying for education was for suckers.

I don’t consider it to be gold-digging or shallow if you are still in the time of life where houses, kids, college for them, etc. are things that you’d have to plan for, and wanting someone who can share the weight of all of that is important.

If I had already been married, had grown kids, and for example, at my parents stage in life where the house is paid for and needs are simple, I could see how someone who didn’t have much wouldn’t be a bad choice.

But I’ve also seen older family friends who had an awesome time circling the globe until they died and were never pressed for money b/c they both had solid and long careers.
Zaq 68

Goldie@66
Men do not want to list their income. They get far higher response rates if they do (as long as its high) What choice do they have?
If its only average, then most women like Nicole will reject them

Men want women who are reasonably attractive. Women want men men who are reasonably well off. That is the reality of the world in which we live. Survival of the fittest.

I can imagine a world in which people are judged only on the beauty of their soul. I’d like to live in that one. I’m stuck in this one
Goldie 69

@ Zaq #68, yeah, men and women want those things… in theory. Then you end up with a good-looking woman who has zero intellect, or with an aggressive obnoxious wealthy guy, and realize that their criteria are off. Nothing wrong with being good-looking or having a good income, but other things need to come first.

Basically, good looks and a high income will get you your first date, but personality, humor, positive attitude, an open mind, intellectual curiosity etc, will get you into an LTR with a similar person and keep you there. Short-term vs. long-term gain and all that.

@ Nicole #67, I have a math/CS degree from one of the top schools in my home country. All things equal, you bet I’ll want a guy with a good education! But, first of all, guys with really good education have no reason to live in my area, so they move away. (If I were younger and looking to start a family, heck I’d probably relocate.) Second, how many single guys in their 40s/50s with a really good education are out there to begin with? And, out of those few, how many have the qualities I listed earlier? Unfortunately I had to make this requirement (college degree) a “nice-to-have” instead of a “must-have”.

Because I am a person who learns best from my own mistakes, the first guy I met on a dating site when I started doing that a year ago, I picked purely for his educational credentials. The man was working on his PhD at a top-tier school. He even had the same hobbies as I did. Perfect match. Except his personality clashed with mine in a lot of ways. Dude was a real Debbie Downer. He appeared to have anger issues. He left PA posts on my Facebook wall. He talked about his ex-wife so much, and in such bad terms, that to this day I want to find the poor girl and take her out for drinks! And, speaking of ex-wife, well she wasn’t an ex per se – his profile said Divorced, but he was really separated and intended to stay that way for a while, cuz finalizing the legal side of things was too much work, he said. I ended things with him pretty quickly, (got yelled at in the process) and started seeing an old friend of mine, a highly intelligent guy with a good career and no college education. What this taught me was that, as much as I like an educated man, I cannot put education first, or make the lack of it a deal-breaker.

Also, I met my ex in college, he has the same degree as I do, from the same school, and look where it got us…

One thing I won’t back down on is intellect – I’ve tried going out with guys who have less of it going than I do – it doesn’t work. I’m bored out of my skull, and the poor guy is afraid to say something dumb and lose me. Makes both of us pretty miserable. Plus, since I’m looking for a serious long-term relationship, I have to consider the fact that both my teenage kids are highly intelligent, and I don’t want them intimidating the crap out of their mother’s boyfriend when they finally meet him. Heaven forbid they meet a guy who’s never read a book in his life, they’ll rip the poor man to shreds.

“I mean, once upon a time, esp. before they had to “share” the workplace, men could get good white collar jobs without a college degree. Or men could get high paying blue collar jobs (I’m thinking of the auto industry, where I was an engineer for a good bit), that also paid really well. There were definitely older execs who had no degrees and had started there at 18, right out of high school. By the time I was hired, an engineering degree was a requirement. But the lack of formal education that some of them have, combined with age, is why some of them will be low/no income or underemployed going forward.”

LOL, I’m not that old, I’m gen X. I do work in IT, though. Right now of course, they won’t even look at a person’s resume unless it lists a BS in CS. But, back in the 80s, 90s, and early 2000s, people that were intelligent and driven enough, and willing to learn on the job (which is a requirement anyway), could easily get along on an associate degree or a couple years of college (I’ve reported to several of them – they’re really good at what they do – but then again these people had above-average intelligence). It’s no longer the case, which is why my own son, who graduates from HS today is going to college in the fall to get a degree in CS. He’s getting a full ride, BTW – here’s your workaround if there’s no money to pay for your kids’ college – raise smart kids, worked for me once, hopefully will work the second time too

As for the finer things in life… yeah, I do dream of traveling the world one day. But it’d have to be with the right person anyway… so, again, a nice-to-have.
Zaq 70

@ Goldie #69

Of course personality is important – thats what you fall in love with. However in practice it is not an OR, it’s an AND.

To quote Zsa Zsa Gabor “I want a man who’s kind and understanding. Is that too much to ask of a millionaire?”

I have lost count of how many women have said to me, the thing they need more than anything else in a partner is intelligence. Now I have to say that most of these women were very intelligent themselves, but I have a feeling that male intelligence has very high value to the opposite sex.

But here’s the thing. What I’m trying to get across to you women in these posts. You are looking for characteristics in men that ALL women value and want, but few men have.
85% of men are under 6 feet. 70% or so do not have the minimal level of income. Only 1 in 10 cuts it in terms of intelligence etc etc etc.
Oh and somehow these men with the desired characteristics have to be single as well, despite their value to ALL women.

You are in competition with other women for these men. The men value looks more than other criteria. Take a look in the mirror. If these men are 1 in thousand, then you have got be be more attractive than 999 out of a 1000 women to match.

Am I missing something ?
Goldie 71

@ Zaq #70, yes, I am totally aware of that. Which is why I 1) limit my “must-haves” to intelligence, and screw height and income; and 2) do not rule out the possibility of remaining single. It’s not that bad. Definitely worse than being in a good relationship, but better than being in a bad one. oh yeah and 3) try to pay attention to how I look, because you’re right, this stuff is important to guys.

Though, with men, in my observation, looks will get you your first date with a guy, but looks alone won’t get you a second, let alone an LTR.
Jadafisk 72

65. You said that many women are making excuses to disqualify the majority of men, and that ”Most men won’t cut it” due to evolutionary wiring. I’m saying that it’s not true and the proof’s in the pudding – perfectly mediocre and ”sub-par” people getting together daily and experiencing romantic popularity. Regular folks are also more likely to reproduce beyond replacement level than the elite specimens so intent on maintaining their six-figure salaries and their wedding day dress sizes- survival of the fit enough.

Also, seeing as modern humans have existed as a species for hundreds of thousands of years pre-money, why would women *naturally* respond to incredibly unnatural stimuli like cars, diamond-studded watches, and bank balances as signs of desirability? A perky silicone breast still looks like a breast – ah, ideally. But a pile of green paper looks nothing like a downed deer, or a bushel of wheat. It has culturally assigned, highly context-dependent value, and has had a relatively short appearance in human history. How can people evolve so quickly as to respond to this *on a genetic level* as a stand-in for security, but so slowly as to not account for the ability of both genders to provide it?

Diet and exercise can’t change the impact that changing hormone levels have on the *distribution* of body fat – they can only counteract the effects of metabolic change - nor can they improve the effects of aging on the appearance of the skin, which can actually be exacerbated by weight loss. When men admire the beauty and fertility of a young woman, that’s a big part of what they’re examining – figure proportion and facial features. There are many, many older single women that keep themselves fastidiously fit specifically because they’re discriminated against on the dating market by their age peers. Said (value-neutral) discrimination persists in spite of their efforts.

Many intelligent men can attest to not being battled over by beauties, even when their intelligence literally pays off. Meanwhile, there are (5’9”) guys of average intellect that have women coming to and from their mother’s basement like clockwork because they can tell the hell out of a funny story down there, then go out to a club and cut a serious rug. Women are not the same. They don’t ALL share the same preferences. They are broken up into a multitude of subgroups, each of which more or less agrees on a set of desirable traits, within which they compete. There are more winners than there appears to be, and more people with desirable traits suffering losses, because there are so many different contests going on at any given time.

This site is geared towards a certain type of woman who wants a certain type of man. This man is not who all women want, but he’s the paragon of desirability for this particularly insular subset. By 30, most other women have closed the deal with men who are not this guy… he’s fairly notorious for bowing out late in the game, and this subset is on a staggered schedule already due to the greater than average length of their educational attainment.

Oh God, it’s a novel.
Zaq 73

@ Goldie #71

I think you will do well, most of the women here are being far pickier.

I know a 30 year old guy who is tall, witty and intelligent, but he’s bald, and a postman. Its not happening.
Actually, I know another postman who is attractive and intelligent, but about 5 feet 6 inches. Strangely its not happening for him either.
What could it be ?
Can I suggest that you take up hobbies, or attend classes that would attract intelligent men. Chess clubs, writers groups etc
Nicole 74

@Goldie,
Well, your ex-husband was good enough to be your husband at one point. I’m assuming that it wasn’t always bad. I don’t know. I mean, I guess some people marry b/c it’s time or whatever but I just hope that your marriage was not always unsatisfying. I think that a lot of relationships have a shelf life, and I don’t know that the whole thing should be chalked up as a failure just b/c you didn’t make it to the grave with one person.

When I was talking about education, I was referring to private school. A lot of people have issues with the idea of paying for education pre-college but it worked out well for my sister and I. We went to elite universities and both have advanced degrees. Neither of us need anyone to support us financially. And you just never know what will happen with college funding so it’s good to have parents who can step in and help, and I appreciate that we could afford all of the extras (study abroad, working only when we wanted, going home as we wanted even though we were far away, etc).

I think I mentioned that I liked intellect. Some people are good on paper and dont’ have two original thoughts to rub together nor can they converse about anything that don’t get paid for. Boring.

What is PA? I don’t know all of the acronyms that I tend to see here.

Even if someone who seems just like you isn’t a bad match, it still comes down to the fact that you have to fit a man’s physical ideal, far more than he needs to fit yours. A great personality can make someone look taller, make his hair look thicker, and make him look younger. I mean, I chuckle to myself at how men add 2 inches to their height, but if you are my height or slightly taller, clearly it’s not a dealbreaker. And someone who just sounds boring, stupid, or otherwise unpleasant would never get a 2nd chance no matter how “pretty” or good on paper, although men will put up with all kinds of crazy if someone is “hot.”

While I don’t know any men who married down with respect to education or intelligence, I think that if they were choosing between looks and brains, they’ll choose looks. But maybe less as they get older. The internet kind of skews things b/c it makes things look like a big candy store.

Oh, you don’t have to be THAT old to have lived in a time when a college degree wasn’t necessary for a nice white collar job. I mean, it happened a lot of engineering and tech if you had an aptitude for it, and definitely happened again in the 90′s in the tech industry. Before the bubble burst, people could definitely walk out of high school or a bit of college and into a tech company. Not everyone, but people who were really gifted could do that. I just meant that it hurts the older workers more than the younger ones who can possibly regroup and finish that degree. So I’ve met Baby Boomers and Gen Xers who dropped out of or never went to college b/c of lucrative offers that came from internships or consulting projects.

@Zaq,

You really enjoy twisting everyone’s words around or taking everything to the level of hyperbole don’t you? Not sure I’m going to bother refuting anything you’ve said since you only cherry pick the things that support your ideas that women are shallow gold-diggers who won’t give good guys a chance.
Zaq 75

Nicole@74
Pot and kettle and all that. I dont think I’m twisting words. My ideas come from a great deal of behavioural science research that is available to you right now. I have already given links to some of it.
Babies pay more attention to physically attractive people – its hard wired.
Therefore NO ONE IS SHALLOW, ATTRACTION IS NOT A CHOICE.
So how can I be accusing anyone of being shallow ?

Now the term “Gold Digger” is not one I have used, and has negative connotations. Women are hard wired to be attracted to men with the ability to gather resources – for obvious reasons.
THEY ARE NOT SHALLOW, ATTRACTION IS NOT A CHOICE

But, here’s the thing, the genetic coding does not appear to be compatible with modern monogamous relationships.
I am trying to point out that your natural desires are reducing your options, so you should be aware of it and choose a strategy that is likely to be more successful.
Zaq 76

Jadafish@72

I hope that you have taken on board what I said above about evolutionary strategy not working too well in todays society. For one thing, if you are over 35, you are supposed to be dead !

How do unattractive people get around to mating? I could give the usual answer – BEER !
Again studies have shown that physically unattractive people do not find their opposite gender equivalent attractive, so clearly quite a lot of compromise must be going on.

Your next point is about cash not being around in the past so it would be impossible to have evolved to be attracted to it. Women appear to be attracted to men with status, and that is still the case with hunter gatherer tribes that exist today. What value do the rest of the tribe place on a man. In today’s society money and status are very strongly linked – but not always. It is possible to have status without money, and women will still be attracted.

Diet and exercise. I could point out that current research shows that actively worked muscles produce more stem cells which rejuvinate them.
However, it is obvious that people who look after their body look younger.
Both genders are attracted to younger members of the opposite sex when they get past a certain age.
I agree with much of what you are saying here. It IS more difficult for women. Men can continue to build muscle past 40, but when estrogen production tails off, women cannot. Women’s skin is thinner. Really handy for stretching when pregnant, but liable to wrinkling when older.
The wrinkles are more noticeable if you have less fat.
Men are attracted to women who have big eyes, small chin, blonde hair, clear skin, rosy cheeks, bright eyes. These appear to be characteristics of children. Yes men are attracted to youth.

Next point, yes women are very attracted to men who are funny. Some scientists think it may be a primitive way of detecting intelligence. Intelligence that can be applied in a social context. A funny person is popular, and we are back with status again.

Last point. Yes, women do have different preferences. Men do not. Height or intelligence. Good looks or sense of humour. There are so many variables that women judge men on that it would be difficult for all women to agree.
However, I’m not sure that the readers of this blog are a unique subset who are looking for a type of guy different than other women. Why would that be?
Goldie 77

@ Nicole #74,

PA = passive-aggressive. Sorry it took me a while to reply – after reading your comment, I spent some time gasping like a fish out of water, going “OMG prep school! She said she wants a man who agrees prep school is a necessity! OMG!” and so forth. Because, from your context, when you said “private school”, I think it’s safe to assume you didn’t mean parochial… Um, I’m probably in completely different social circles, because to me it would seem extremely hard to find a man (or a woman) that wouldn’t balk at 25K/year tuition + extra fees, times 13, times the number of children, and this all before any of the kids have even started college… Yikes! My friends and acquaintances mostly took the road of: good public school => high-ranking undergrad school, or, more frequently lately: good public school => good solid public in-state undergrad => top-tier grad school/PhD program. Anyway, good luck… Probably for a man who went to a prep school himself, yes that would be a priority for his future children.

Yeah my son may certainly lose the scholarship, (knock on wood), these things do happen. I’ll cross that bridge when I get to it… Will certainly help him financially as best I can, split the loans with him, etc. if needed.

@ Zaq: “Can I suggest that you take up hobbies, or attend classes that would attract intelligent men. Chess clubs, writers groups etc”

Thanks, yes, I am working in this direction… Hope Evan forgives me, but I suspect that for me, this approach will actually work better than online dating. Even though I’m on match right now, working hard to get my money’s worth. I’m doing everything by Evan’s book, and the results are pretty good so far. I suspect that meetup groups and such might work better for me, though.

#76: “yes women are very attracted to men who are funny. Some scientists think it may be a primitive way of detecting intelligence. Intelligence that can be applied in a social context. A funny person is popular, and we are back with status again.”

These are all valid reasons why, but I’ve got another one for you – to me, it is also a way of detecting a man’s general attitude. If we’re together for the long term, I’ve got to know how he’ll react when something bad happens (and it’ll happen… this is life). Is he going to be withdrawn, or angry? Is he going to blame me, himself, or everyone else? Is he going to hit the bottle or join a cult? Or is he going to be able to maintain a positive attitude? I think a person’s sense of humor helps them remain positive and stable through the bad times.
Jazzy 78

Sorry – I might be the only total flake here, but I totally look for really hot guys. I guess I’m shallow.
TS 79

I have no idea. I don’t know if I’m actually good-looking or not because no one’s going to tell me I’m not and we never see ourselves the way others really do.

The thing to be is well-groomed and make the most of yourself and hope the guy comes close. So far, they haven’t.
TS 80

@Zaq & @ Goldie Don’t go to chess clubs. I ran one for a while (I like chess) and all I got were weirdos with Asian girl fetishes.
BK 81

Whoa. I think we all somehow got away from the question about someone being more PHYSICALLY attractive than you. Physical attractiveness is, I think, based on a quick judgment. It doesn’t take anything into account except what the eye sees and what the loins want.

That said, of course I’d want to meet women more physically attractive than I am if I were considering dating. I’ve stated I (and most others) consider myself a 1 in looks. I seriously doubt many people want to date someone they consider a 1 in physical attractiveness. However, I seem to have a very different scale than other men. I’ve known women who other men have claimed were 10s, but they were 2s to me. (This is what has led to the belief that I have impossibly high standards.) And I’ve known women who I didn’t think could be sexier, but my friends thought they were dogs. I think because I tend to reject mainstream society and all its bullshit, I also tend to reject mainstream beauty ideals. I was reading a study on OkCupid last week about how one’s physical attractiveness affected the number of messages that person receives. They showed two examples of women who were rated very highly in terms of looks by men and two women who were rated in the middle. (They didn’t want to ask those who were rated near the bottom if they could use their pictures because that seemed mean.) And, honestly, I was way more attracted to the women who were considered “average” than to the ones who were “smoking hot.”

It might have something to do with associations. I think Jessica Simpson is ridiculously stupid based on what I’ve seen, and I don’t find her nor women who look like her attractive. I think Britney Spears is unstable, and I don’t find her nor women who look like her attractive. It has something to do with psychology. It’s not fair to judge people based on this, but I’ve found my judgments to be fairly accurate.
Joe 82

Zaq @ 65: so you know women who are 40 who have married men who were 20?

Nicole @ 67: do you wear heels?
Nicole 83

@Joe…sometimes, but as much as I love shoes, I always try to gauge how much walking is required and pick accordingly.

Are you asking b/c of what I said about men exaggerating about their height? I’m talking about wearing flats and looking eye to eye with men who will say that they are 5’8 or 5’9 or 5’10. Or when you see a friend’s driver’s license and he’s the same height as you but his license says he is 5’10. Just something I’ve noticed. But it does make me assume that anyone who admits to being less than 5’8 is probably shorter than me.

Since I didn’t inherit my parents’ height and long legs, it’s not that important, but considering that I still get measured at the doctor’s office, I’m wondering how so many men are under the impression that they are taller than they are. I’ve been 5’6 since I stopped growing in high school.
Joe 84

Yeah, I asked for that reason.

You know, I was happy tooling along, thinking I was 5’9″ for years, when I decided to measure myself again and discovered I was 5’9.5″. Maybe years of having my posture fixed by my ballroom coach “uncovered” an extra 1/2″ LOL.

The way I figure it, there’s really no point in lying about your height or body type because as soon as you meet any prospective date, that person can see the truth. Unless you’re exceptionally attractive, the odds of that date being turned off by the deception are higher than the odds of the deception getting you that date in the first place (if that makes sense).
Nicole 85

@Joe,
Yeah, in the grand scheme of things, it’s not the worst lie someone can tell. But it’s a pointless lie(like posting a 20 year old pictures). I mean, while some descriptions are open to interpretation, height isn’t one of them.

Like I said, I’m only average height for an American woman, but it does mentally make me rule out people who claim under 5’8 b/c then they are probably shorter than me and that is just REALLY tiny. And there is nothing wrong with that, but not my preference so I’d rather just pass (which isn’t the same as insisting that someone be 6’2).

What is funny to me about the height thing is that unlike body type, it isn’t subjective at all. Your height is your height.

Now someone might get mad if they decide that your body type doesn’t match their interpretation(and I’m not talking about hugely obvious things, just minor ones), or if they couldn’t tell exactly how big or small you were from your body shot, but that is still open to interpretation. I don’t lie about my body, have a recent picture, but I do think some people see the whole package and still want to see it in person and then decide to pass, b/c we are still all built different and they might like the shape but wish it was a bit smaller.

I do think more women are a bit more lenient with the physical package that men come in, but as picky as men are when the tables are turned, you’d think that they’d be more honest themselves. So I’ve seen men who were quite large call themselves athletic and toned, and met men who said that and had huge bellies. It would never occur to me to pick something so different from what I am. Now if I decide you aren’t toned b/c you don’t have a six pack, that is kind of my own fault or my own way of interpreting things. And I don’t want to meet anyone that is going to reject me in person b/c they think I’m a liar and didn’t describe myself accurately. Does that make any sense?

I think that women are probably turned off by lies about height than a man would be. And I think that a woman is going to get forgiven more for being hot enough. A hot man with a bad personality or who might be a big(or small) liar isn’t that appealing.
NonExist 86

Well from where I put myself on the scale, 99% of people are physically more attractive than I.
So the answer would have to be yes.

Funny thing about height, my last physical measurement I was 6 feet.
But I have gotten people in general who know and meet me who tell me I must be 6’2″ or 6’3″.
So sometimes it is poerception.
Saint Stephen 87

@NonExist
If you are 6 feet tall then u are a lot more attractive than you think.
A 6 feet tall unattractive guy looks more attractive to women than a gorgeous looking 5 8″/5 9″ guys.
hespeler 88

Saint Stephen 87

@NonExist
If you are 6 feet tall then u are a lot more attractive than you think.
A 6 feet tall unattractive guy looks more attractive to women than a gorgeous looking 5 8″/5 9″ guys.

If it were only that simple. I’m 6’2” and in very good shape (borderline gym rat). I’ve been toiling around on Match for over 2 years. I’ve had plenty of dates and a couple of short-term relationships but I can’t get dates with the ones I find really attractive and if I do get a date with a hottie, I usually don’t get a second.

I also have a great job (six figure salary), own a house, and have good social skills (I’m anything but creepy). My one downfall is my receding hairline; I’m not bald but I no longer have a thick head of hair. I just say this because everyone has their shortcomings – height in and of itself will not do the trick.

I went out a month ago with a 10 (I thought she was). We had a very nice time, she commented on how young I looked compared to my pictures (I’m 37 and she’s 35) and even made out in the parking lot (she kissed me – caught me by surprise actually). I tried to get a second date a couple of days later and she essentially wished me the best of luck. I’m still pissed about it. I recall we got on the subject of height during the date and she said that height wasn’t really a big deal to her. This is a girl who in my opinion is far and away the most attractive girl on Match in my area.

My height didn’t get me anywhere with other really hot ones too. It just gets me the date but I’m just one of the 10 dates they have lined up that week…
Saint Stephen 89

@Hespeler
Your only problem is your inability to get date with lots of “Match.com hotties” while other men 5 8″ and 5 9″ are lamenting over their inability to get a date with the plain average women – yeah, some men wish they had your problem. Looks isn’t going to matter in the long run if you are genuinely seeking a healthy long term relationship. But men still want attractive women and women still desire tall and attractive men – people want what they want and you can’t change them except they want to.

And if have a lot of skill-set as you claim, why not harness it to get women in real life by seeking out avenues where you can exude your charm and social prowess? If your aim is to get lots of hotties – it seems you’ll be more successful that way.
The hotties on Match.com do have lots of options – they can have find other guys that are 6 2″ and more attractive with full head of hair.
Mavis 90

most women i know (myself included) don’t care about a receding hairline, in fact i think it looks attractive on some guys. i do care somewhat about height but only because i want him to be taller than me (i’m 5″6) so anywhere from 5″7 up is ok. i have dated shorter guys as well and it’s not a deal breaker, just a preference. i am also thin and therefore prefer a slimmer guy, but again i’ve been very attracted to men who were a little overweight if they had a great personality. now GUYS on the other hand…i don’t even know where to start. i posted a profile online and was getting snubbed because i wasn’t hot enough. a couple of guys even said they liked my profile (without photo), but when they saw my photo they took off. i admit i’m not gorgeous or “hot” but if the fat, balding guy is holding out a “hottie,” where does that leave us average women? and no i don’t want to date a guy who just “settled” for me because he couldn’t do better. i want someone to think i’m attractive. is that too much to ask for?
Paragon 91

@ Mavis

” i admit i’m not gorgeous or “hot” but if the fat, balding guy is holding out a “hottie,””

In all likelihood, he isn’t.

OLD studies show that women receive emails in close proportion to their perceived attractiveness(with only the bottom 25% of females being ‘snubbed’, compared to the bottom 60% of males – which shows that the odds are in the favor of females, as if we didn’t already know).

“and no i don’t want to date a guy who just “settled” for me because he couldn’t do better.”

And how would you propose to infer that?

Are you sure this isn’t just a clever way of saying, that YOU don’t want to accept a man who YOU think can’t do better?

If so, then don’t you see what a losing strategy this is?

Like all self-interested organisms, men pursue positive outcomes.

So, if you are intent on holding out for some guy who somehow, against all reasonable expectations, is(and will remain!) *oblivious* to better options with higher value women, then you are either deluded, or indulging too much romance fiction.

But, what is the obsession that many females have with *only* playing the long odds?

Is it all just in pursuit of a peer-validated ego trip?

Everyone settles on *someone* when they make a decision to invest singularly in getting to know that person better.

After that, any emotional bonding changes the whole dynamic – individuals are no longer a weighted
statistic, but an evolved emotional quantity in someone eles’s life.

So the whole ‘settling’ interval is only relevant where an individual is just a composite of unqualified assessments in a stranger’s mind.
Freddie Anon 92

if she is ugly i wont get an errection
if she is too hot i wont trust others around her when we are not together
so i want her to be a 6 or 7, i have been a 4 and an 8 in my life i still like her to be a 6 or 7 either way