Are You Taking Advantage Of All Your Opportunities To Find Love?
You have standards.
You know what you’re worth.
And you’re never gonna settle for less.
I’m right there with you. (Boy, am I there with you!)
As a result of my high standards, I became a dating coach. I may have been labeled a “serial dater” by CNN when I was 32, but I was actually one of those rare guys who took his love life seriously at a young age. My parents were married for 30 years before my dad passed away, and it was their amazing marriage that I’ve always wanted to emulate.
You should never give up your standards, but… you’re quite possibly passing up the love of your life right this very moment.
When you have such a high bar to jump, you’ll likely find that most people fall short.
I’m sure you feel the same way. You’ve spent way too much time spinning your wheels on the wrong men to give up your lofty standards NOW.
As your friend, I want to tell you that you should never give up your standards, but that you’re quite possibly passing up the love of your life right this very moment.
I spent ten years dating online, passing up amazing women, and finding plenty of justifications for it. Then I figured out what I was doing wrong.
No doubt about it, you and I have some seriously high (and well-deserved!) standards.
Which partially explains how, between the ages of 25-35, I dated over 300 women.
I’m not proud of that. That’s a lot of failed dates, complete with all the rejection, confusion, and frustration that comes with them.
The silver lining to all of these experiences was that, as I got older, I found myself making much better decisions.
No more dysfunctional relationships with hot, toxic women.
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Why He Disappeared is the smart, strong, successful woman's guide to understanding men. If you want to learn how men think, and rediscover how to have meaningful relationships - all from a man's point of view - click here to learn Why He Disappeared. |
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50 Comments »Filed Under Online Dating
Mona 1
Never have I posted a comment before, but I just had to this time. Evan, I am recently divorced and discovered your blog last April. In September, keeping in mind the advice I have read on here, and to look out for new experiences and opportunities, and started dating one of the most amazing men that I have ever met. Actually, he’s one of the best human being I have ever met in my life, and that’s saying a lot. Is he a little short? Yes. Does he have a bit of a belly to lose? Yes. Is he Jewish and I am not? Yep. Am I perfect? NO WAY! Do we get along incredibly well and I can’t imagine how 5 months has gone by and we are still together, and things keep getting better and better? YESSSSSS.
He had to open up and date outside his faith, as did I (not that either of us is “super” religious anyway….). He’s had to compromise on my flair for drama and predilection for spending too much on girly products like makeup and perfume. I’ve had to compromise on him being more quiet and stoic than I am used to, and his fondness for shoe shopping. However, somehow we make it work and I really see a good future with this man. I am blessed to have found him, and we both ask each other, still, at least 5 times a week… “How did we get so lucky?” We both feel that we have found a goldmine in each other….. It’s the most wonderful feeling in the world.
You give the BEST advice, Evan. Keep it up. I love reading your blog, every day…. You tell it how it is, and from a man’s point of view. Good job, sir! (And many many blessings to you and your family!! Congratulations….!)
Honey 2
Even if you find someone who meets all your crazy criteria, they will have lots of flaws you didn’t anticipate and you will end up compromising just as much anyway!
Shay 3
That’s right, Honey. We can only try to make sure those flaws are small things that would not drive us crazy.
Bill 4
You can be as picky as you like and stay single.
Jadafisk 5
So what happens to women who just cannot generate sexual feelings for people that they’re not physically attracted to – the ones that they’d pass over on sight/in search? Does it mean that they’re unlikely to find love unless they conclude that feeling desirable is a sufficient substitute for feeling desire?
SS 6
@5
Those women should move on.
No one is saying to continue a relationship or try to build one with a man or woman in which you have NO sexual feelings for whatsoever… Evan is talking about people eliminating prospects before they even know if they have sexual feelings for them or physical attraction. People are too quick to eliminate other people that COULD be amazing for them just because they don’t have immediate attraction or because those people “aren’t their type.” … that’s the issue.
Rose 7
What a great post, Evan. Thank you.
Stacy 8
Evan,
This is a great post. I think it highlights the flaws of online dating. I know you’d disagree with me – which is ok, after all you’ve built a successful business around it, but I really think that online dating can only get you so far and should not be relied upon in finding love.
People tend to objectify each other online. This is natural – all I am seeing is a (sometimes bad) photo and a generic description. Wit, kindness, positive attitude – none of this can be communicated through the computer screen. Ergo, the second best thing is to check your quantitative criteria – age, distance, income – and quickly narrow down the list of potential candidates.
I actually had a similar experience – met a guy in a social situation, liked each other, hit it off. He’s the type of guy I would’ve NEVER responded on match. For one, he’s GU, for two he’s not a white-collar ivy-league type I’d usually go for – albeit very successfull with his own business.
My conclusion, though, would be different from yours. Instead of killing yourself going on hundreds of dates from match, most of which are likely to fail, singles need to get out and socialize more. At any big enough party you’d be able to talk to 20 people in one night and get a real FEEL for whether you like this person or not, something you can’t get from a computer screen. It would take you more than a month to go on that many first dates from online. Talk about efficiency.
Match is an ok medium of meeting people. But seeing it as your main way of meeting people is really a mistake.
Evan Marc Katz 9
Stacy – Fair enough. Are you meeting anyone in “real life”? If so, great. If not, Match is the single best source of single people on earth, unless you can prove otherwise.
Vanessa 10
Evan @ 9,
I agree with your comment to Stacy @ 8. I have never had so many dates in my entire life so easily!! Meeting that many people in “real life” takes a lot more time and effort. I have found tons of great guys to date, including my current amazing boyfriend, on Match. And, oh, I am 41 and a single mother.
Many thanks Evan.
Stacy 11
Evan,
Of course – I meet people everywhere. I fact, I met my ex-b/f on match - so I can appreciate the value of it. That said, most match dates tend to be extremely low-quality and overdosing on them can cause dating burnout and impact one’s selfesteem. I am sure that it is also a function of location and one’s age group though, a 41 yo in Tennessee and a 28 yo in NYC will have drastically different dating experiences and options on- and off-line.
Aya 12
Dear Evan,
I understand what you’re saying to Stacy, but she’s right that your post highlights the flaws of online dating. I also want to add to that, that I have dated online quite a lot, and dated people of high quality, but- I find that the biggest problem is that people expect a really fast progression of things. Meaning, these are nice people that I would like to know better, but they seem to want the physical part too quickly for my taste. If I had met these men offline, or not for the stated reason of dating- this pressure would not exist, and I could get to know them better.
I come to the same point where either they end it because they feel that I am not attracted to them, or I end it for the same reason. This usually happens around the third or fourth date. I tried actually telling them I need time, and they say I’m worth the wait, but still around the third date, the wait is over..
Denise 13
#11 & #12
Totally agree with you both, ESPECIALLY this:
overdosing on them can cause dating burnout and impact one’s self esteem.
On line dating also doesn’t often provide a ‘story’, how the couple met, which is usually something endearing or surprising. (Like Evan’s story!)
I wouldn’t say not to do on line dating, but there are significant drawbacks. And if you’re going to do it, put yourself in the best position possible like investing in Evan’s on line tools and advice. What I do say about on line dating though is it keeps one in the ‘game’, you know, ‘use it or lose it’
Annie 14
@5 Ahh..Jada.
I met a man, some time back(4 years?). I met him onlie, not dating website, but through playing online computer games. (yep, geeky gaming chick here!!). I didnt’ know what he looked like, but within the first week of spending time with him(online), he seemed amazing.
It took 6 months before we could finally meet(We lived across country). He was very average looking, my hieght, slim build, nothing special physically. He was very nerdy, intellectual type.
When he first touched me, on my shoulder in a way that was “subtly” intimate, I couldnt’ stop shaking. I was so excited I almost melted into the floor.
Although for a number of reasons(I wont’ get into), we couldn’t work out, I learnt more from my time with him, than I had in my whole life.
When you really like some-one, and get to know them…the chemistry is simply there. But I would have passed this man on the street as being a very average, older guy, without anything to “offer”.
But until you’ve experienced this type of Personal chemistry(rather than physical), you cannot know. It is so amazing.
I think that’s what Evan is really saying. He’s not expecting you to be with a man, you will never feel chemistry with. But you may be amazed, that if you give a bloke a chance, that chemistry, like you’ve never felt, will build up and you will be very happy and excited to be with him.
Annie 15
@12 Aya.
I’m with ya on that one. I find that the online thing, seems to cause a very quick progression. IE, after 1 or 2 dates, sex is on the cards. It’s way too much, and too soon and I cannot deal with it. It’s why I got off the online dating. I may join up again, but I hate that pressure, and I began to really begin to dislike men and the pressure they put on me.
So I stopped. I just need to figure out a way to deal with it, and not get offended or hurt by it. Not sure how to manage that one.
Denise 16
#15
You’re not an innocent bystander in your life, defenseless in regard to what others ‘do’ to you. Consider changing your whole mindset that it’s YOUR life and you want to live it the way you feel is best for you–that’s in regard to work, men, friends.
How about setting your expectations right up front, on the first date, in a conversational tone (vs. accusatory or negative), and if you like the guy and think there might be multiple dates? It’s not that difficult, but does take some courage. I guarantee, if he’s a decent guy, he will admire your ability to exert your boundary and let him know what your boundary is without game playing or him trying to read your mind. Then let him make up his mind if that works for him.
Joe 17
I think that a little bit of the pressure can sometimes come from the fact that meeting people “organically” (through friends, in social situations, etc.) usually doesn’t cost a lot of money. You’re usually doing something you’d like to do anyway, without the pressure of buying dinner or being bought dinner.
Also, as alluded to earlier, meeting people online has basically one express purpose: to date. Organically, you can each rationalize things as, “oh, we’re just hanging out.”
Liz 18
#16
Explaining your expectations on the first date? That seems to be the exact opposite of what Evan would advise. Even if it’s in a “conversational tone.”
Stacy 19
Joe #17
When you’re meeting organically, you don’t need to “rationalize” - you ARE just hanging out. In my case we hang out multiple types at a friends’ beach house, went to clubs with a larger group of friends, did bbq, etc. We had things/friends in common. There was a connection before a romantic connection.
Whith online dating it is very mechanical. There’s no connection other than you belonging to the same dating service.
I’d be curious to hear Evan’s suggestions about how to navigate this with integrity.
Annie 20
@16 and @18.
I know my own boundaries and know that I can “say no’. I’m not however going to bring up on a first date “Oh btw, I’m not going to sleep with you until I’m ready and I’m not sure how long that will be”.
Male expectations of immediate intimacy, wether I say no or not as some kind of proof for them that I’m interested, simply wear me down and makes me realize how many men feel entitled to something they have not yet earned. I’m an invisible walking talking vagina to them. I just need a break from it.
The last male “friend” who propositiond me for sex, did so, via text, the day he got engaged.(No he and I were not FWB, or dating or anything, just friends). Enough years of that shit, and you can get rather disillusioned no matter how much you try not to be.
It’s the one area, I most struggle with, with dating and has actually some-what turned me off intimacy with me. Hence the need for a break. I still read and learn though.
Annie 21
That was intimacy with “men” not me. haha…that I’m fine with.
ss 22
@Annie 20
Male expectations of immediate intimacy, wether I say no or not as some kind of proof for them that I’m interested, simply wear me down and makes me realize how many men feel entitled to something they have not yet earned. I’m an invisible walking talking vagina to them. I just need a break from it.
Annie, I’m in agreement on this one… this mentality seems to permeate the dating world today and is even expressed on this blog (which I otherwise love). And certain poster will even imply that a woman who wants to wait for a more established commitment to have sex are using it as a “bargaining chip.”
That’s a lame cliche if I’ve ever heard one. So what are people saying here? You should just have sex with any man just because he might be hot and you had a few good dates, and if you dare have a standard for yourself about waiting until you’re in a committed relationship, now you’re playing the “bargaining chip” game? Please. I think not.
Denise 23
#20
Annie, totally understand what you’re saying. I think there’s ways to be creative about getting your point across. The first date is supposed to be fun and flirty, nothing serious (actually the first phase of dating would be best to be this way). Somehow, because it’s on line dating, that feels like sometimes it goes to the wayside–another downside of on line dating, the steps of courtship are reversed.
If it’s appropriate, the point can easily be brought up that you believe that relationships need time to develop, that you want to take your time to get to know someone. That’s all you have to say. Women decide when and where sex will happen. Sex or any sexual details do not even have to be brought up. Mature men will get what you are saying; you don’t need a lot of words either.
Of course this depends on each man and how mature they are, I do think they do ‘expect’ sex as part of a relationship. Otherwise, why would they want to be there? They want the whole package, just like women do.
If he proceeds to push, and you like him, you can gently remind him of your preference. If he continues to push and is also obnoxious, he’s not the right man. If he doesn’t push, and he gets it (although that doesn’t mean he won’t try now and then, he’s a man, he can’t help it!), then he’s a keeper.
Men are ALL about sex, that’s in their core, it’s who they are in their being and how God made them–that’s in their reptilian brain. However, that doesn’t mean they don’t have higher brains to curb their reptilian brain impulses–if not, then men would be forcing women to have sex with them everywhere they went! The more mature the man, the greater control he has. Even in that circumstance though, he wants sex, period. (Keep in mind though that’s not ALL they want, but at the end of the day, that’s the bottom line with them.)
This is in contrast to women who want relationships, that’s in our reptilian brain. We want safety and security with the man we’re with, not just physically by emotionally. We want his resources of time, energy, affection, time, listening, money. We can’t help it, that’s the way we are. (We’re not nagging when we ask for something to be done, we’re asking for a man’s resources.) More immature women take this to the extreme and smother the man, hen peck him. A mature woman will find balance and work with him on how to get what she needs and wants.
You probably know all this, but thought I would mention it. It sounds like you’re a little burned out from dating, and I can totally understand that. If you’re doing on line dating, that’s another downside. It’s quantity vs. quality and that can be tiring.
You sould like an awesome woman that any man would be lucky to have! It sounds like you’re working on being the best person you can be, and that will certainly attract the type of man that deserves you.
Karl R 24
Denise said: (#23)
“If he doesn’t push, and he gets it (although that doesn’t mean he won’t try now and then, he’s a man, he can’t help it!), then he’s a keeper.”
A mature man’s decision to try every so often has nothing to do with his ability to “help it”.
Women generally expect men to take the initiative with intimacy. Women also expect the man to wait until the woman is ready. There’s one small flaw with this plan. Men can’t read minds. We don’t know when you’re ready for more intimacy.
Mature men know that the boundaries change over time, so we occasionally test those boundaries to see where they are.
Denise said: (#23)
“The more mature the man, the greater control he has. Even in that circumstance though, he wants sex, period.”
It’s not the primary motive for most mature men. However, it is one of several dealbreaker issues. We don’t want a sexless marriage.
ss asked: (#22)
“So what are people saying here? [...] if you dare have a standard for yourself about waiting until you’re in a committed relationship, now you’re playing the ‘bargaining chip’ game?”
Some people might go to that extreme. Most have a different perspective.
I don’t want to marry a woman who uses sex as a bargaining chip. I want to marry a woman who wants to have sex with me … and frequently. When my girlfriend and I have sex, we both have a really good time. We see that as an equal exchange. Sex isn’t a reward for good behavior. It’s not withheld for poor behavior. It’s not a bargaining chip.
I fully understand a woman (or man) not wanting to have sex with a near-stranger. And if that’s a woman’s concern, I have no issues with that. I can patiently wait.
But I can’t read minds. I watch a woman’s behavior to get an idea what her future behavior will be. If I have to jump through a bunch of hoops in order to have sex prior to marriage, that means it’s possible (or likely) that the same thing will occur after we’re married.
That’s the crucial difference.
SS 25
Karl, I always love your perspective!
I agree with how you put it. I waited until I felt comfortable with the man I was dating exclusively (and later married) before deciding to have sex… and he waited for me to reach that point because he understood why I was waiting. After that, things were great with our sex life.
But before that, I dated a man who, after I suggested a third date at a coffee shop, that he was tired of eating and chatting and was ready to make our interaction more physical. I said that I was not ready for that, and would not feel comfortable progressing to that level until we were in a committed relationship.
He proceeded to then tell me that he didn’t like when women used sex as a “bargaining chip” and that I pretty much had old-fashioned ideas and was very rigid with my sexuality.
The nerve! So I tell a guy after two dates that I’m not ready to sleep with him yet and it’s ME who has the issue?
It’s this sense of entitlement that I’m referring to — the idea that because a woman goes out with a man a few times, she should be ready to progress to physical intimacy with that man, regardless of the fact that he’s still a virtual stranger that she’s spent little more than a few hours with in total.
Joe 26
I think there are 2 types of women: The Strong, Smart woman and the Weak, Doormat women. But both need to Understand their Own Power. They need to assess themselves as potential Wives/Mothers, just like when they analyze men as potential Husbands/Fathers. Then they need to understand how to mold, control, and build a man into a lasting relationship.
starthrower68 27
I think it’s pretty easy Joe. Show up naked and smiling.
Annie 28
@25.
Yep, that’s what I’m talking about. The men that try and tell me there is something “wrong” with me, because I won’t sleep with them. I’ve so far heard.
1. I will turn off the sex-tap, when I don’t get what I want. (Gee, I love being thought of as a tap, that a man gets to turn on and off whenever he chooses. )
2. I’m a man-hater
3. I’m going to end up a very very lonely old woman
4. I’m a prude
5. I use sex as a weapon
6. I’m making him wait
7. I’m a bitch who wants to keep hold of the key to the golden gates
8. I’m manipulative
9. I’m a princess who thinks she’s worth more than she is
10. I’m a cold unloving woman
and that’s in about the last 12 months or so.
The thing that wears me down, is not that I don’t realize that men like sex. I would like to enjoy it as well. It is that they don’t seem to realize this is something we need to “share” not something I “give” a man or something he is owed. And it IS intense, it IS intimate and I’m not automatically turned on, because some guy wants to stick his penis inside of me. Thousands of men during my life have wanted to do that. Why on earth would that be exciting to me by default?
And men make a huge, huge mistake in thinking that because a woman “puts out”, “gives it up” or “gives him some loving” in the beginning that the long term relationship will involve a lot of sex.
Men make the mistake over and over in not understanding a woman’s sexuality and expecting it to be just like his, and wonder why the sex ultimately dies in a relationship.
Yeah, I’ve gotten so burned out over this, that I’m almost turned off by the thought of a man touching me. It’s meaningless to them. Just something I do for them, so they can feel good.
I don’t want to end up bitter, so I’m taking a break. Thanks for those that replied and understand.
Karl R 29
Joe said: (#26)
“they need to understand how to mold, control, and build a man into a lasting relationship.”
Could you explain how a woman would mold or control a man? Perhaps you could give examples of ways that women have molded and controlled you in the past.
Based upon the comments women have previously made on this blog, it is my understanding that women view moldable, controlable men as being weak doormats, and therefore, undesirable.
When women have tried to mold and control me, I’ve seen that as a reason to end the relationship.
Has your experience been different?
BeenThereDoneThat 30
@ Joe.
I try to mold, shape and direct my children and maybe occasionally control. Any man who is looking to be or needs to be ”molded” and/or “controlled” I would not view as an adult. I already have 3 kids, I’m looking for an adult relationship; not a mother/child one.
Evan Marc Katz 31
@Annie:
If you’ve been told all of this in the past year:
1. I will turn off the sex-tap, when I don’t get what I want. (Gee, I love being thought of as a tap, that a man gets to turn on and off whenever he chooses. )
2. I’m a man-hater
3. I’m going to end up a very very lonely old woman
4. I’m a prude
5. I use sex as a weapon
6. I’m making him wait
7. I’m a bitch who wants to keep hold of the key to the golden gates
8. I’m manipulative
9. I’m a princess who thinks she’s worth more than she is
10. I’m a cold unloving woman
…I think you should probably look at how you’re coming across to men. Seems there’s a pattern there, and since men aren’t going to change, it may be wise to figure out how to better message your stance on sex. “Why He Disappeared” has a section on this, and most women have said that it changed their lives.
And if you get defensive, consider me saying the exact same thing to a man who has been told 10 times in the past year that he’s too sexually aggressive and that women get turned off. You’d probably think he should listen to my advice, right?
Karl R 32
SS said: (#25)
“I said that I was not ready for that, and would not feel comfortable progressing to that level until we were in a committed relationship.”
I agree that man’s response was way out of line. However, the way you phrased that may cause additional problems for you in the future.
I stopped using the phrase “committed relationship” when dating, because people have wildly different definitions for what it means. To me, it means my date and I have agreed to date exclusively. To others, it means they’re engaged.
SS said: (#25)
“he was tired of eating and chatting and was ready to make our interaction more physical.”
Did he literally say “more physical”? If so, this is another vague comment that could be broadly interpreted. It could mean “more physical than we have been” or “more physical than is polite in public.”
As a guy (and therefore a literalist), if you told me that you wanted to get “more physical”, I might be hoping you meant sex. But I’d be aware that wasn’t what you said. And if you said you weren’t going to get more physical, I’d assume that you weren’t going any further than we’d already been.
On a coffee date, I haven’t gotten any further than a passionate kiss goodbye. If you suggested that you weren’t going to go any further without dating exclusively, I would think you were more prudish than me (though I’d be too polite to say so). If I thought that things weren’t going any further prior to engagement, I would politely break up with you.
SS said: (#25)
“I suggested a third date at a coffee shop”
Was that your way of telling him that you weren’t interested in him? If you were that disinterested, why bother going on a third date?
Denise 33
#31
I had the same thoughts as Evan when I read Annie’s post. I thought maybe it’s an age thing as I’m in my mid 40′s? And if this the first date, that’s even more problematic. I have dated A LOT since my separation/divorce 4 years ago and have never had any man say anything remotely like this to me. Even if I just talked to him on line, I never have had this either.
I didn’t date a ton when I was younger, but never ran into this either. Maybe it was when I grew up, but I was born in the 60′s, so you would think would have affected men somewhat.
Women choose if sex is going to happen and when, that’s the mindset to have and the ‘power’ to enjoy (NOT to manipulate, but to create a tempo in the relationship that feels good to her).
ss 34
@Karl,
A few months after this episode, I met a man who had no problem with me waiting for a committed relationship to have sex with him, and we ended up marrying a little over a year later.
Did he literally say “more physical”? If so, this is another vague comment that could be broadly interpreted. It could mean “more physical than we have been” or “more physical than is polite in public.”
To answer your questions, this man said, “more physical, sensual, bodily orientated and thus more complete.”
He stated this in an e-mail and that was the exact line. I just cut and pasted that from the e-mail. Before that, in the same e-mail, he said that he felt that our relationship was too “head-y” and the long hours of conversation had made our relationship “very imbalanced,” and he felt that it needed to become “more physical, sensual, bodily orientated and thus more complete.”
Up to that point, we had been on two dates, lasting about two hours each, and had talked on the phone a few times, with the conversations totaling about an hour (all together).
“I suggested a third date at a coffee shop”
Was that your way of telling him that you weren’t interested in him? If you were that disinterested, why bother going on a third date?
Here’s the background on that, which I think will make more sense in terms of why I felt this man was completely out of line.
Our first two dates were at restaurants. After the second date, he told me by e-mail that his job situation was shaky, his hours were being cut back and he wanted to inform me that he’d be unable to continue to take me out in the same manner because his funds were low. He said that if I wanted to continue to hang out, he would welcome that, but he couldn’t offer more.
I did not know yet if I was interested, but I wanted to be understanding so I suggested the coffee date because it was inexpensive. I wanted to show that I still was interested in seeing him and getting to know him, and that money did not have to be an object.
It was after that suggestion that he said what I posted above. So… basically, he first said that he was not going to be taking me out anymore because of money issues but would still be interested in hanging out, and when I suggested cheap/free options in which we could talk and enjoy each other’s company, he said we’d done enough of that and needed to get physical.
That’s why I thought, wow, the nerve!!! You’ve just told me — by e-mail, no less — that you are backing off on your pursuit of me and then when I attempt to suggest dates/options that were more wallet-friendly, you complain that we aren’t getting physical enough?
However, the way you phrased that may cause additional problems for you in the future.
Well, unless I divorce my wonderful husband in the near future, I won’t have any problems with this anymore.
Our sex life is good.
ss 35
@Denise 33
It could be an age thing. I’m in my early 30s — don’t know how old Annie is — and from what I hear from younger women in their 20s, it’s even worse.
It’s not so much the interest in sex or attempts at it, it’s the sense of entitlement in which it’s done. A friend of mine mentioned how touchy-feely a guy was on a first date and when she said stop, he said, “Oh, some women are into that.”
They met on the Internet and that was the first time they’d really spent any time with each other — oh, and he revealed later in the date when she asked that he was separated.
There are definitely some great guys online, and I will always recommend online dating to single women, but I think the age of technology in general has engendered a greater sense of sexual entitlement among some men.
Diana 36
For some reason, I am thinking of my mom who used to be a dating widow. She tickled me because despite her sexual history as a married women for many years, she refused to sleep with any man, even those she dated exclusively for several months, before marrying again. As fate would have it, she married a man she’d known as a friend through other friends. They’ve been married for 14 years and going strong. He is also a far better partner and match than my father was.
Joe 37
@BeenThereDoneThat
You’re presuming that most Men aren’t Grown Up Babies!!! I think most single men need a lot more help when it comes to relationships than women. But basically, Men aren’t conditioned to work at relationships, men just want the booty and then leave. Women have goals of finding one man for a 20 year relationship. Men have goals of serially or casually dating a woman for 1-5 years max. Men and women have directly opposing goals when it comes to dating. Women are single by choice, but its a good thing because it shows they can be financially and emotionally independent. Most women can lower their standards to find a willing boyfriend/husband.
Aya 38
Karl,
I agree with you about there being a double standard, and that men don’t always know what’s expected of them: if they push too hard, they are wrong, and if they don’t do a thing they are wrong because then they are blamed for not being attracted to the woman or having some other kind of problem.
But- just as you expect woment ot tell you what they want up front, I would expect the guy to tell me where he’s at. Maybe if a guy said to me- “It seems to me like you’re never going to be on the same page as me on this”, I could have told him where I stand and he wouldn’t have to just assume I am not attracted to him and bail.
Also- I think there is a difference in the dynamics I would expect after just a couple of dates as opposed to something longer. If you’re saying you predict future behavior based on present one- there are things that are appropriate for each stage. Just because I don’t want to sleep with you on the first few dates, doesn’t mean I won’t want to later.
Just as telling someone intimate details about oneself on the first date is not appropriate, sex or even kissing might not be.
But if a guy has no patience to wait it out, or- god forbid- talk about it, he might miss out on someone who is just slower to open up.
Karl R 39
Joe said: (#37)
“Men have goals of serially or casually dating a woman for 1-5 years max.”
Do you have a source for that statistic, or did you make it up? Over 95% of men get married during their lives. Over 90% of young men want to get married, even though they’re not ready to do so soon. Two thirds of marriages last over 10 years. Two thirds of divorces are initiated by women. That suggests to me that most men get married with the intent of being in the relationship for the long run, even when the marriage doesn’t last that long.
Do you know any men who are getting married with the intention of ending the relationship in less than 5 years? Is that your intent?
Most people spend part of their lives casually dating with no expectation of commitment. They also spend part of their lives serial dating while they search for a partner who will last a lifetime. They also spend part of their lives married to that partner (even though some later realize that they chose poorly). So the men who casually date and serial date usually become the ones who get married for decades. The women who want to get married for decades usually were serial daters or casual daters at some point in their lives.
Joe said: (#37)
“You’re presuming that most Men aren’t Grown Up Babies!!!”
Are you a grown up baby? Can you produce any evidence that most men are grown up babies?
You’ve made a lot of statements about what “most men” are like, but you haven’t produced a single shred of evidence to support your opinions. Have you met most men? Have you surveyed a representative sample of them? Can you give me a reason to believe that your opinions have any credible basis in fact?
Joe 40
Karl, do you have statistics to show how many Married Men cheat or get caught cheating? Its not that Men don’t want to get married, its that Men don’t lose their desire to cheat even when they are married. Cheating doesn’t have to end in divorce, its a fact of life, accept it. For someone who claims to never have been married or in a relationship longer than 5 years, you seem pretty adamant that most men can stay monogamous for 60 years, good luck! You’ll need to ask some women if they think their Husbands are grown up babies, or if they just like to watch football and play on the computer all day.
Evan Marc Katz 41
@Joe: How can I say this politely? Um, I don’t think you belong here. It’s not that you capitalize Married Men for no reason. Or even that you make the false and specious claim that most men cheat over 60 years (this page shows that about 22% cheated on their spouse, which, as you know, means that 78% haven’t).
The real reason I’m thinking you should find another blog is because you’re completely out of step with everything I have to say, everything the other commenters have to say, and everything that unbiased statistics have to say. In other words, you speak only for yourself and, even then, you don’t make much sense. I have no trouble approving your posts (except the one where you insulted me); I just don’t know why you’d continue to make them. It would be like me going to Beliefnet.com and posting a whole bunch of athiest ideas on their boards. Kind of a waste of everyone’s time.
So either start making sense and backing up your claims or find a community that really speaks to you. I know of a bunch of pick up artist forums where you’d fit in just perfectly.
(Oh, and by the way, just because men don’t lose their desire for other women doesn’t mean we act on it. This critical thinking ability is part of what separates us from lower primates.)
Katarina Phang 42
SS, I understand the pressure for sex. I feel that too a lot of times (recently happened 2 nights ago). However, how do you suppose a man will be sure enough to “commit” without knowing if you two are sexually compatible?
SS 43
Katarina, I feel that sexual compatibility is based on a lot of factors that go beyond the physical. Obviously, the physical DOES have a major place in sexual compatibility, but I also feel that factors such as emotional security and mental intimacy are very underrated when it comes to sexual compatibility.
So that means that I can find a guy hot and have a hot make-out session with him after two dates, but the sex we have after two dates (for example) might not be an indication of the type of sex we’ll have in two months, two years or two decades.
Attempting to determine sexual compatibility in order to make a commitment, in my opinion, is a futile exercise. Humans are not cars or inanimate objects to be test driven. If say, I’m nervous about a first time with a new man and he doesn’t like that, is he suddenly going to decide that we’re not “sexually compatible” and therefore won’t commit to me? Or say a man finishes, uh, too early, the first two times… does that mean the woman should automatically determine there’s no sexual compatibility and should therefore move on?
I know that I am not going to feel comfortable having sex with someone that I feel is a virtual stranger, and therefore, those sexual experiences would not be all that great. Should that then be the basis of how a man determines our sexual compatibility?
Some of my best dating mentors who have great relationships/marriages said that the sex got TONS better the longer they were with their partners because they built up trust and true emotional intimacy. But what if they decided that because the sex was just okay in the beginning that they shouldn’t pursue a relationship with their partners because they weren’t sexually compatible? Well, they would have missed out on a great partner and some great sex because they were focused on the wrong things too early.
Plus, in this age of STDs (including some nasties like HPV which a lot of women don’t realize can contribute to infertility issues — trust me, my friends tell me horror stories), it’s downright unsafe at times to promote this concept that a person needs to have sex with someone before deciding to be committed. So let’s see… if I felt things were going well with the last five guys I dated, had sex with them under this “test drive” paradigm and then they all decided that we were “sexually incompatible,” then what? Yes, I can write some of these situations off as “he’s just not that into you,” but perhaps I don’t exactly want to have casual sex? Are we really saying this is now the price to pay simply to enter a committed relationship? I really hope not, because that’s exactly the conclusion one could reach.
Yes, I know one can have just one partner and catch an incurable STD and someone else can have 50 partners and be totally clean. But the risk is still higher the higher my number climbs… and I’m also trying to protect myself emotionally… because I probably would catch feelings for some of those men and not exactly enjoy feeling “test-driven.”
As I said, I’m married. My husband didn’t feel that he needed to determine sexual compatibility to commit to me because all of the other compatibility factors were in place. Because of that, when we did become sexually involved, it was a smooth and easy transition because we had built up that level of trust and emotional intimacy that I feel are the most important parts of sexual compatibility. In fact, in the three committed relationships that I’ve had in my lifetime, all of the men waiting until I felt ready and were totally sure about committing to me without feeling the need to determine “sexual compatiblity,” whatever that’s supposed to be.
I participate on this board because I like reading about dating and human relationships, and sharing what my past dating experiences were. And I strongly feel that all of this “needing to determine sexual compatibility before committing to someone” is a total crock. If that’s what someone wants to do personally, hey, go ahead… but I really hope that women who do NOT want to do this stick to their guns and tell a man who needs sex before being “sure” about committing to take a hike.
Evan Marc Katz 44
@SS: Maybe I’m misreading you, but your life experience is definitely is not a wise course of action for the majority of women. I advocate that women wait for men to commit as boyfriends before having sex. If you encourage women to wait until they married, allow me to predict that you’re going to eliminate over 95% of men – including every single man that I know. Thus, it’s a losing strategy.
If you make sex before marriage into some callous “test drive”, it’s going to sound awful, but the truth is that ALL dating is a “test drive” – including sex. And just as I wouldn’t propose to a woman on the first date because I don’t know if we’re compatible, I believe it’s a mistake to save sex until after marriage for the same exact reason.
SS 45
Evan, I’m talking about boyfriends as well, not marriage.
My issue is with men who say that they can’t decide if they want to commit to a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship unless they determine sexual compatibility and insist that sex takes place before they make that decision. I think that puts women at serious emotional risk.
The marriage thing… that’s a whole other story! Although I support those who do want to wait until marriage, I agree that it does eliminate a large majority of men and that those people will be fishing in small (and usually religious) pools.
Karl R 46
SS said: (#43)
“In fact, in the three committed relationships that I’ve had in my lifetime, all of the men waiting until I felt ready and were totally sure about committing to me without feeling the need to determine ‘sexual compatiblity,’ whatever that’s supposed to be.”
It’s been my general preference to wait until there’s a committed relationship to have sex (though I’ve broken that rule a couple times in 15 years). I am certainly willing to commit to being a boyfriend before having sex.
But emotional security and mental intimacy aren’t enough to guarantee good sex (or even adequate sex). In my second committed relationship, the young woman’s idea of “participating” in sex was to lie on her back with her legs spread. I prefer my partners to be more actively involved in the sex act.
After repeated suggestions about things I enjoyed (which were half-heartedly acted upon once, then subsequently ignored), sex became a recurrent source of frustration for me. Our differences regarding physical intimacy were the reason I ended the relationship.
I’ll commit to being a boyfriend before having sex. I’ll take some time to see whether the sex improves. But I won’t hesitate to break up with a woman if the sexual compatability isn’t there. I’m not that committed to being a boyfriend.
SS said: (#43)
“I strongly feel that all of this ‘needing to determine sexual compatibility before committing to someone’ is a total crock.”
None of my other relationships remotely compared to that one. If your relationships were like most of mine, you won’t be able to understand why people place great importance upon sexual compatability. But all it takes is one partner like that girlfriend to understand where they’re coming from.
Diana 47
To SS #43, I am in agreement with you overall. While I don’t think I’d wait until marriage (a remarriage for me) to be intimate, the guy would have to be a serious boyfriend, and this would fit together with being in a committed relationship prior to sex happening.
I have heard the old line from my female friends where the man says something just a few dates in like, “Well, we need to know if we’re sexually compatible first, before we can go any further,” and they just roll their eyes. They see it as just a lame excuse to get into their pants. And yes, sexual compatibility can change, whether that’s “hot to not” or “slow to grow,” or whatever, so trying to use this as one of the gauges for marriage or an LTR is flawed. But then so is dating.
My former husband and I took our time, and spent months leading up to the right time for us (notice I wrote “us”). By then, we were so deeply engaged with each other emotionally that our sexual compatibility fell right into place. He never pressured me, but he knew from our interactions with each other that it was just a matter of time.
SS 48
I think some wires are being crossed here. I’ve never mentioned waiting until marriage for sex… my definition of commitment is when two people agree that they pursuing an exclusive relationship, not dating anyone else and that it’s clear that they are boyfriend/girlfriend (lol, that sounds so high school, but you get the idea).
The scenario I mentioned earlier regarded a man who said that in order to consider an exclusive relationship with me (not marriage), he had to see if we were sexually compatible first, and he questioned how he could commit to me if he didn’t know if we were sexually compatible.
When I said that it was a “crock” that one needs to determine sexual compatibility before commitment, again, I was not talking about marriage. I have encountered too many younger women who have heard from men AND women that it’s supposedly normal these days for men not to commit to simply being a boyfriend if he hasn’t had sex with them to determine “sexual compatibility.” THAT is a crock because no woman should feel that in order to have a relationship, she must have sex with a man first so that he can “test” her and their “sexual compatibility.”
Now if both parties want to have sex and are both perfectly happy with their decision — whether in a committed relationship or not — then I have no objections to that. But the idea of submitting to a “test drive” to determine whether you’re girlfriend material isn’t remotely empowering for a woman, and there are plenty of men out there who don’t have this requirement. Losing a man who insists on sex before he considers being exclusive with you is no loss at all.
Hope that’s clear.
Karl said:
You won’t be able to understand why people place great importance upon sexual compatability. But all it takes is one partner like that girlfriend to understand where they’re coming from.
Actually I understand completely. The second relationship of the three that I mentioned ended up being one of poor sexual compatibility (among other things — the other things broke us up first). However, discovery of this issue was a part of getting to know him as a boyfriend. The sex actually started off fine and got worse because of various personal issues he had going on… and also, because we found that we were incompatible in many other ways, our sex life suffered.
None of this would have been determined though by trying to figure out before our relationship if we were sexually compatible. As I said, we were early on. Ultimately, the early sexual compatibility meant nothing, and we needed to actually be in a relationship where we agreed to be working toward a long-term goal before we realized that we didn’t need to be together. We lasted barely a year, but you know, that’s okay. Relationships end for all sorts of reasons… but it took us 6+ months together to know whether or not we were compatible for the long-term (sexually, mentally, emotionally). That was not something that could be determined after a few dates.
I’m glad we were boyfriend and girlfriend for the time we had together, and glad that we broke up when we did.
While one cannot ever guarantee good, long-term sex with a new partner, I know I was more likely (based on a few experiences) to have better overall sexual chemistry with a boyfriend than I was with a FWB. One could have great sex with an FWB, but for the most part, that compatibility was ONLY based on the physical and was rather superficial. With the men who were my boyfriends, the sexual compatibility was typically much better because it was about more than just the physical.
Katarina Phang 49
With me personally if I feel strong sexually with a man early, it’s usually a strong indication that I would want him to be my long term lover. If I don’t feel it early, it will not end up in anything, usually. So far it has been like that. It might change in the future (who knows).
So waiting to have sex serves no purpose for me. I usually want it because I feel strongly for him and the sooner we establish that we connect sexually the better for me (why waste time?). And why wouldn’t I want to be intimate with a man I adore? If it doesn’t end up in LTR, then I just move on…I don’t lose anything. Having sex is not like sacrificing the most sacred part of my being or something. We both enjoyed it in the moment, as we both should.
If you don’t feel that way toward a man you are aiming to have a LTR with, perhaps you should re-evaluate if you really feel that strong for him/trust him in the first place. If you don’t feel that close/emotionally connected to him, then perhaps he’s not really for you. For me personally, I would feel that way about him before we even decide to be exclusive/committed with each other (even when the sex might start as a casual thing).
All my long term relationships started with sex very early on. Again, it might change in the future but so far that has been my pattern and it works just fine.
NonExist 50
Interesting comments and experiences here.
Have met people online and offline but also through friends similar to what Stacy #19 said in her first paragraph. And it actually is preferable to all other mediums in my opinion. Now all my firends who still live near are married and them “hooking me up” with someone is not the same as just having a get together and mingling.
I have only been asked to wait by a couple of women.
Most I have dated a few times later told me they thought I was not interested because I did not move fast enough.
I’ll usually just go with the flow. Spend the time, have fun, and either the sex would flow in or it would not.
Until I started reading online forums did I see how much sex was a really deep subject of discussion other than responsibility or safety.