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Categories: Sex Tags: dating sex, how to please your man, what men think, what men want, when to have sex when dating
I’m a 31-year old woman, and have been dating a lot but have had little success. I’d say I’m in the very attractive category and have no trouble getting casual dates, but few guys seem serious. (I did see, and really appreciated, your post dedicated to the plight of pretty girls!) My last failed attempt has me really wondering what I’m doing wrong.
After about 4 dates (each time he’d follow up right away to tell me he had fun and wanted to see me soon), I spent a lot of time with this new guy one weekend and he introduced me to all his friends, who were very welcoming. The next weekend, we had a great evening together and went to his place, but I told him I wasn’t ready to have sex. He asked me why, and I told him truthfully that I really liked him, and that I wanted to be sure that we weren’t seeing other people first. I told him I could see myself getting more attached to him if we got really physical and just wanted to know there might be something there. Then I said that I was perfectly willing to talk about it all now if he was too. He said he understood, but didn’t say anything more just cuddled with me. We fell asleep together, then spent the next morning out for brunch and wandering around the local farmer’s market (his ideas). He seemed that day to be truly enjoying my company. But since then, he never called me again.
I accept that he’s no longer interested, and I’m prepared to be realistic and move on from this particular guy. I feel like it’s a good thing that I made my feelings clear — he responded by showing his true intentions were not to have a relationship but to just get laid. But how can this possibly keep happening? It’s pretty hard to think that he did such a 180 for any other reason than that I put my feelings out there. I feel fairly confident that if I had slept with him he would have made sure to see me again. You have said in your posts that sometimes you have to take a leap, but it can’t possibly be true that I have to “leap” and have sex with someone who’s just not quite willing to commit *yet* and then wait for him to decide that he’s willing to admit that he has feelings for me a few months later. Maybe in this case he really is seeing other people, but this scenario keeps repeating itself for me.
I think I must be doing something wrong, but I just refuse to accept that not having sex until he commits to me is the wrong decision. How many times do I have to go through this painful process before a guy (and a guy that I’m into) will be so crazy about me that he just says, okay, whatever you need – time, commitment, you’ve got it! I guess what I’m really asking for is some reassurance that a hot girl can hold out on sex without lowering her chances of finding a great, sexy and confident guy who’s really into her.
Thanks in advance for helping a girl out,
Colette
Dear Colette,
Guys want sex. Factor in that “great, sexy, confident guys” are more likely to be able to get sex in most circumstances, and, well, if you won’t give it to them, someone else will.
“Can a hot girl hold out on sex”? Yes.
“Can a hot girl hold out on sex and still hope to find a great, sexy and confident guy who’s really into her?” Yes.
“Can a hot girl hold out on sex without lowering her chances of finding a great, sexy and confident guy who’s really into her?” No. Holding out on sex will inherently lower your chances of finding a guy.
Why? Because guys want sex. Factor in that “great, sexy, confident guys” are more likely to be able to get sex in most circumstances, and, well, if you won’t give it to them, someone else will.
But that doesn’t mean it’s impossible.
In fact, I want to laud you for waiting for a commitment before sex. If more women did that, there would be a lot less post-coital heartbreak. Alas, there would be a lot more of the pre-coital disappointment you’ve described above.
Choose your poison.
You feel “fairly confident” that he would have called you again after sex. What about all the other women who felt the same way and got burned? Clearly, you’re damned if you do, and your damned if you don’t.
So what’s a girl to do?…
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Evan,
I so disagree with you. She told him that she found him attractive and she just wanted to wait until they were monogamous and she knew something was there between them.
She was still willing to kiss and cuddle so she wasn’t being a tease or frigid, – she just wanted to wait before going all the way.
He bailed because he didn’t get laid – his instant gratification was denied. He showed he right there that he was an assclown – and also that he didn’t value her enough to SHOW her over the next few dates that he cared/this was going to go somewhere.
That is different from not letting him know there was chemistry.
Of course someone will walk if they feel they aren’t wanted – this wasn’t the case with her.
If a guy can’t wait for date 9 or 10 – he’s showing by his actions a lack of respect and genuine interest in HER. He can jack off for a few nights without it killing him.
Yes, it may mean that few guys wait – that doesn’t mean the RIGHT guy won;’t be thrilled that she respects herself not to give it us easily, is intrigued by her healthy boundaries, and know they have a 1,000 times for wild monkey sex after just a few other weekends go by.
A little frustration leads to increased desire as two peoplem begin to know each-other, it’s sort of like foreplay, you want it, you fantasize about it, when it finally happens things are incredibly intense between the two of you.
She didn’t say he had to wait 6 months or something really hardcore that might have made him felt she was playing games/didn’t like or want sex with him.
Your e-mail/phone example wasn’t comparable with this. Gently encouraging someone while taking it slow was exactly what this woman WAS doing.
You’ve got to kiss a lot of frogs before you find a Prince.
Well said, Evan!
Wow. Evan, you make men sound like SO MUCH WORK. Are they really?
This is an interesting situation because this man has done all the “right” things in terms of introducing her to his friends, respecting her wishes, etc. It does sound to me like he wasn’t ready to commit. Personally I have never had this particular sex/no sex problem. Rather than put it on the man, trying to get him to say something about his feelings or status, I simply state my end, which is, “If you’re sleeping with other people I can’t sleep with you.” I sometimes go on to explain it’s not safe disease-wise, and is likely to hurt my feelings. Historically if the man is interested but has any other things going, he will excuse himself, wrap up or disengage from any loose ends out there, and put focus on getting to know “us” more. I don’t usually expect a man to expose his feelings so soon. In fact, sometimes they’ve asked me what mine are first!
So, I re-read your statement: “…I wanted to be sure that we weren’t seeing other people first. I told him I could see myself getting more attached to him if we got really physical and just wanted to know there might be something there. Then I said that I was perfectly willing to talk about it all now if he was too…” It’s a lot and seems like you’re asking him to reveal a lot, verbally, about if he’s seeing someone, and if there’s, “something there.” I think it can be hard for men, or anyone, to do this on date 4. Then there’s the “if” of getting physical. I agree with Evan that men need to know it’s an eventuality, not an, “if.” So, again, my advice is, you just state YOUR position without working on getting information out of him. If he is interested, he KNOWS you are, and he’ll will act accordingly.
Since this guy did all the right things, but time has passed and you haven’t heard from him, why not call him up and get some feedback? Like, “It seemed we were on the road to getting to know each other and I was really enjoying that. It’s fine with me to not continue since it seems you don’t want to…I’m just wondering if I offended you in some way?” You may be surprised by what you hear. Maybe he got a little freaked out and he’s been hoping YOU will call. Or, maybe he’ll just say, “You know, I did have someone else I was interested in and that suddenly took off.” Either way, you’ll have your answer! Better than sitting around wondering…
Good luck,
Kris
I agree with Annie’s post no. 1. The right guy will ABSOLUTELY wait for sex with his dreamgirl. I don’t care how old or how experienced the players are, or how “hot” or “plain” they are. This is just a fact. Decent men who are the “marrying kind” want to know that the woman they are considering making a lifelong commitment to is not sexually easy for them to get — because that means she will be sexually easy for other men to get, and I don’t care what men say in jest about how fun it is dating a nympho or whatever, they DO NOT want to think about their sweethearts being promiscuous.
I was 44 and my now-husband was 34 when we were courting. We kissed beginning on the second date and we didn’t seriously make out until about the 9th date, after he asked me to be exclusive. We went to bed shortly after that. He asked me about sex early on and I smiled and said lightly, “I’m a really generous woman, but the one thing I won’t share is my man. If I think there’s any possibility of our doing this really special thing together, then the next night you’re off doing that same special thing with another woman, that just doesn’t appeal to me, sorry.” He loved it! All the other women who jumped in bed with him, thinking it would be the way to hook him or hold onto him — wrong. He would take what he wanted and be outa there. He’d been waiting his whole life for the woman who valued herself enough to hold out for at least the promise that exclusive dating might lead someplace permanent. That kind of woman is rara avis. ESPECIALLY when she is hot!
I do think you’re messing up in terms of your approach, though, Colette. It sounds like in response to “Let’s get intimate” you initiated a big relationship talk (which most men HATE), wanting to know where he stood right then and there. That scares men off, even when they’re seriously interested in a woman. A far better response, after only a few dates, would be something like, “I’m flattered you’re that attracted to me; I really dig you, too. It’s kind of early though. Why don’t we see where things go? I’d like our first time to be really special.” Make the words fit into your own mouth, but that idea. Or use a variation of the “rationale” I used, and keep it short and sweet. Notice how I set forth my boundaries (“We need to be exclusive/monogamous before I will sleep with you”) without coming out and saying those words. I said what I said in a very playful tone of voice. You should, too. Don’t turn “Wow, do I ever want to take you to bed and ravish you” into an excuse for finding out a man’s intentions. Just smile and enjoy it and tell him how flattered you are, while still laying out your own boundaries. Like Evan says, give the guy hope! That’s what will keep him hooked, not easy sex.
Sherry Argov in her book “Why Men Love Bitches” talks about sex during courtship in terms of “giving it up one Jujube at a time.” Very similar to Evan’s talking about “bases.” It sounds like what you really need are “what to say when” ideas. Be light and witty and a little mysterious, and give the guy something to look forward to in the future, without giving away more than you’re comfortable with. And without “offering” to nail down your relationship right then and there. That’s the man’s job, Colette. It’s your job to consider whether you like the parameters he sets over time and either accept or reject them and move on. It is not our job as women to drive the relationship, and I think maybe that’s the source of your bad luck, if this tends to be a pattern for you.
Well said, LOVING ANNIE!!!!
Just one more thing that has not been mentioned in this debate…maybe because it’s obvious, but…. having him claim he is ready for commitment STILL doesn’t guarantee — “post-coital” that he actually is. In other words, he can still hide his true stripes, tell you he is ready to make that leap, and still be gone before the breakfast dishes are washed. I don’t mean to sound like the Grim Reaper, but unfortunately, there are no guarantees any way you look at it. That said, though, I have to keep believing, as Evan says, that if a woman (and not just “pretty” women) determines her personal healthy boundaries and learns to communicate them in a non-rigid, non-frigid, encouraging way, she’ll eventually get to a man of substance and integrity, who is also hot. Just plan to do a lot of frog kissing first.
Evan, you make some great points.
But I don’t think there is ever anything wrong with saying, “I am just not ready for sex.” There are many, many, many, many men who (although they may want sex) are willing to wait and see where it goes. I do not think a woman (or man, for that matter) should have to explain their reasons for wanting to wait, either.
Believe me, if a man is put off by the fact that you open up and say, “Hey, I wanna wait,” then he is nothing like ready to be open to understanding where you may be coming from, relationally. And that makes him NOT a candidate for a future.
I think this is a great way to weed out the frogs. They hop along on their merry way and find sex with some other hot girl and whateverthehell else they are looking for.
Stick to your guns, babe. I guarantee a prince of a man will come along at some point.
“It sounds like in response to “Let’s get intimate” you initiated a big relationship talk (which most men HATE), wanting to know where he stood right then and there. That scares men off, even when they’re seriously interested in a woman.”
I fully agree. This is the part that set off alarms for me. It was way to early to say this to him. Oh well. Live and Learn.
Annie, your views are noble, but way out of line with reality. Here’s the reality for guys(I’m paraphrasing the book title): She’s just not into you!
Evan, your response as usual, was pretty close to the way I feel. In the relationships in my life that I had with women that were most long term and most meaningful to me, sex happened much sooner than the 9-10 dates that Annie referred to. Why? Because there was so much good energy in the air between us, that we couldn’t stay apart. I’m not referring to just sexual energy. I’m talking about a strong emotional connection.
I once dated a lady that I sincerely liked a lot. She wasn’t ready to “go all the way” after 5-6 dates and countless hours on the phone together because she first wanted a commitment of monogamy from me. While I understood her sentiment, the discussion took some romantic breeze from my sail. I was really into this girl and I wanted our lovemaking to stem from romance and mutual, not from a contract.
I thought that I was a good “risk” to her but she needed the verbal promise, which I wouldn’t give. Not because I wasn’t ready for it. I just thought that it was a foolish thing to say, knowing that if things didn’t work out for either of us, she’d run for the hills as fast as I would if I was the unhappy one.
Ladies, do you want some guy to B.S. you and say what you want to hear in order to get laid or do you want emotional intimacy? I suspect the latter. Pinning him down to an agreement so early that YOU may not even want to live up to may or may not yield the results you want.
If I were single, I think things would either fall into a “friends with benefits” category or a “monogamous-this-might-be-leading-somewhere” category. And which one it was would have to be clearly established before I’d hop in the sack.
The BF and I had sex on our first date…on our second date (a day and a half later) we agreed to be exclusive. Like some others here said, we had so much good energy the sex was inevitable…but the energy was also so good that agreeing to be exclusive was easy.
Kris,
right on, every point you made.
Me? Well, I personally wouldn’t even consider committing to a man if I don’t know what he is like in bed. Why on earth should the guy?
Listen to what Robert said, ladies. All this “prince” talk is a bit, shall we say, naive.
Oh, as for men being so much work, the guy who writes “your hot” is not worth my time or effort. Attempting to extract any semblance of an intelligent exchange out of that would be akin to juicing a stone.
In other words, be very discriminate as to whom you choose to “work” on.
Hi Juju,
Thanks for the props.
By, “work,” I just meant all the thinking women are told to do to phrase things correctly for the men…to be “playful,” encouraging, playing hard to get, mysterious, light…whatever. Most men who like me…I can just tell them what’s up and they’re cool with that. It’s a lot of work, otherwise, for something that probably won’t work, anyway…if it needs that much of a delicate touch. Phew. I’m tired just thinking about it.
I would say to any men on this blog: feel free to ask questions of women for clarification. We might not have said it EXACTLY right! And then the two go their separate ways…what a shame! Que lastima!
Bueno!
Kris
It sounds like, from reading the above, when it’s right he wants what you want, no matter, whether it’s right-away-sex or let’s-wait-sex. Which leads us back to the mythological: you just haven’t met the right one yet. Maybe it’s true. It would put Evan out a job, though! ;~)
I still think she should call him. I live in a small enough town that inevitably you run into the person and you can say, “What’s up?” But in bigger towns, gotta p/u the phone. Do it! Do it! Now even I’m curious, after all this speculation.
Kris
“You may have felt that you were just speaking your mind and explaining your deep-seated reasons and ethics. Maybe all he heard was, No. I don’t find you attractive.”
c’mon, Evan, gimme a break. If he really felt that way he wouldn’t have stayed with her through the end of the next day.
So what’s a girl to do – put out just to keep the guy if it doesn’t feel right to her?
Collette clearly stated what she’s looking for – she didn’t say she was looking for him to totally commit to her right then or there, just that she wasn’t ready to sleep with him yet after ONLY 4 DATES. and she wasn’t playing any games, just being straight up.
And maybe the guy realized he wasn’t ready for that type of committment at all – not from her nor from anyone else.
That doesn’t mean Collette did anything wrong – only saved herself from future heartache. If she slept with him she would have gotten very attached and on an emotional roller coaster.
And I’ll be you anything that this guy respects her as much as she respects herself. And a couple of years from now when he’s ready to settle down he’ll be kicking himself realizing what a schmo he was.
It’s a lot of work, otherwise, for something that probably won’t work, anyway if it needs that much of a delicate touch.
Exactly. I am with you on that. Which is why I don’t subscribe to any of the “seduction rules” so abundantly dispersed to women. If I can’t be myself with this person and, particularly, if we are on such different wavelengths that he can misunderstand / misinterpret me like that, then… well, it isn’t much of a relationship.
As for commitment, whenever I hear people talking about that (what I perceive as prematurely), or this no sex before marriage thing we discussed here recently, I just itch to ask all involved: would you commit to a person if you didn’t know what s/he looked like? What their personality / worldview was like? Why exactly is this any different?
I agree 100% with Loving Annie…and I’m a dude. Go figure.
The right man will wait for the right girl. Unless something dramatic happened at that date at the farmer’s market, it’s obvious the guy 86′d you because he couldn’t get in your pants.
Anyone with high self esteem would say, “his loss, not mine.” Good thing for you you didn’t have sex with him. Imagine how you would’ve felt if you did and never heard from him afterwards.
The right guy will wait for you. Unfortunately, ordering the right guy or the right girl is not as easy as ordering out for a pizza delivery.
I disagree STRONGLY with Kris.
Don’t call this guy. It will be a big mistake. Move on. This guy has dumped you like cargo because you would not have sex with him on his terms.
He’s driftwood. Move on. There are shitloads of quality people out there. You will lose all your personal power if you call this “man” up and ask him what happened.
TRUST ME. If you meant everything to that “man,” HE would still be calling you.
Evan, it’s one thing to discuss how a woman gets her point across to a guy she’s emailing on line. It’s another when you’re talking about having sex with someone for the first time.
this guy is only looking for sex.
Collette, keep at it; you said you have no problem getting dates so you have plenty of opportunities to move on and find a guy who respects you for you.
I feel like it’s a good thing that I made my feelings clear he responded by showing his true intentions were not to have a relationship but to just get laid.
Some people want both and may leave if they are not getting one need or another met.
I think the answer is no. If you are a woman you cannot hold out on having sex with a man, especially if you are hot. It is your responsibility as a woman to take care of the sexual needs of a man if you hope to have a relationship with him. The sooner you can demonstrate that you are willing and able to take care of his sexual needs, the more likely it is that he will commit, if only for a short time, and maybe even love you enough to be exclusive, if only for short time. I’m not sure what the woman gets in return for this, but I’m sure that he will let her know what he is willing to offer her once they are committed. It isn’t really right to make deals for sex, so you can’t really expect anything in return for having sex with him — that’s a bit whorish. The most you can expect is the CHANCE that he will pick you out of all the women out there that he is sleeping with, wants to sleep with, or may someday meet and sleep with.
Ahem. OF COURSE you can have sexual boundaries, and if the guys you meet don’t get it, their loss. You sound great, Collette, and like you have your head on straight. Hold out for the right guy and the right relationship, if that’s the way you want to do it.
A woman shouldn’t have to be a politician/motivational-speaker/nurturer/sex kitten all at once, just to get a guy to commit to her.
I think what you said was fine. Don’t beat yourself up over it. We are not computers, prepared with perfect speeches every time we are in an intimate situation. You were perfectly human in your reaction, feeling somewhat vulnerable, and acting truthfully. You’re allowed to be yourself, express yourself, and say what you want. Guys certainly do it all the time.
If what you said scared him off, then fine, he wasn’t right for you.
There are absolutely men who are cool with waiting. And there are even some who will suggest it themselves. Patience is sexy. Willpower is sexier.
And regarding those guys who write dumb emails that include the phrase, “ur hot, can i call u?” and so forth….. I disagree that a girl should write some catchy, come-hither reply to encourage him to write more.
Puhleeze.
That’s Neanderthal communication.
If a man isn’t savvy enough to know how to talk to a woman from the get-go, why should she waste her time encouraging him to pursue her even more?
The goal isn’t to get EVERY man to like you.
The goal is to not give up until you find the RIGHT one.
I like post #20 from Cute Red Head….
Ron, you’re totally right. This guy is very immature. Collette told him that she didn’t feel comfortable sleeping with somone untill they’re both exclusive – gee, what’s wrong with that? especially in an age of rampant STD’s.
CuteRedhead said “If you are a woman you cannot hold out on having sex with a man, especially if you are hot. It is your responsibility as a woman to take care of the sexual needs of a man if you hope to have a relationship with him” – WTF???????? Yeah, maybe after being in a committed relationship you both have to serve each other’s needs, but c’mon.
Collette, it sounds like you have tons of options – keep at it. Maybe you’re choosing to date the wrong guys? Try paying attention to the more quiet guys, not these jerky types.
I agree with Loving Annie and DownTown. I think that there’s a high emphasis placed on sex which is so superficial. I don’t think that no sex means not interested. What’s wrong with getting to no someone before having sex. I don’t understand how people sleep together after a date or two. Yes, I do feel that sex is important, but I need to get to know the guy before becoming intimate.
I was friends with a guy where we pretty much just spoke on the phone. We admitted that we liked each other and decided to go on a date for VD. For a second date, he invited me to his house to watch a sex show that we used to watch together on the phone; which came on at midnight. He lived an hour away and said he would pick me up around 9PM. I took this as a bootie call because he wasn’t planning dinner or anything during the day; especially that we were both off that day! I expressed my feelings and he was sorry I felt that way. We spoke two days later and I noticed a change in him. He made excuses about not wanting to ruin the friendship and then didn’t speak for like 10 days. I kept wondering what if I would have gone? I called him and we spoke and I told him that I wanted to go out and get to know each other in a personal level because talking on the phone is not the same as personal interaction. We went on a second date and fooled around, but no sex. A time after that, he invited me to his house and then we had sex. I asked him if we were exclusive and he said “well you’re not seeing anyone and I’m not.” He went away on a trip for 10 days and never heard from him, but called me when he returned and brought me back something. It took 10 days before I got to see him and when I did see him it was for a short time and basically just had sex with him. We even had a weekend trip planned in which he canceled. I started to feel like he wasn’t that interested because we would only see each other like once every 3 weeks. When I spoke to him and told him that I would like to spend more time with him, he said ” I do what I can.” I ended it and told him that I didn’t want a phone relationship.
It looks like he was just interested in just sex with me and nothing more. My point is that when he saw I didn’t go to his house that first time, we lost contact. When he did finally sleep with me, it didn’t change anything. Like Evan says you’re dammed if you do and dammed if you don’t!
Collette it looks like he wanted to get in your pants and if you had, he still might not have called or pulled away slowly!
I havent been on this mailing list for too long, so I may have missed this. Where in the midst of all the talk about sex and intimacy, do you bring up the topic of safe sex? it seems to me that ALWAYS has to be in any discussion about sex. And if you are going to have it at all, with anyone, it assumes that the person you are discussing it with , is going to be honest. Trust and honesty develop over time, so what is even the question about waiting for sex? Don’t people care enough about themselves to safeguard their own lives and health?
I went out with a guy recently who told me that every woman he ever dated had sex with him on the first date!! He seemed offended that I would even bring up the question of whether he had ever been tested. Can you talk about this? Cat
My husband made me wait months before he would have sex with me. He was scared and didn’t want to get burned. I, of course, thought he wasn’t really that into me. Now here we are almost 2 years later and I’m feeding out baby as I type this.
I didn’t read through every single response, so maybe someone said this already, but women want sex too. If women stopped acting like they were doing guys some kind of favor giving them sex then maybe it wouldn’t be this big power struggle thing.
Some guys don’t want to continue with a relationship unless they know it’s going to be physical. Why? Because it feels good and that’s one of the reasons people get in relationships. You can’t deny that. It might have been better to talk about your sex boundaries before you’re in a room half naked getting all close. Maybe he didn’t hear “I’m not attracted to you.” Maybe he heard, “small boner.”
Cute Redhead indicates she was *kidding* in her first paragraph when she starts the next one with, “Ahem.” Catch the subtleties.
So much speculation going on about this man’s intentions and thoughts which, in fact, only he knows. It seems filtered by stories of some who have dated some cads. We don’t really know anything about this guy, and if there were only 4 dates, the writer also knows just a bit. Personally I have had MEN ask to wait and one even say to me, “I would have liked to have known you better first,” after our premiere. They are not all about getting some right off the bat.
What matters is what she does now, and she has lots of advice. Colette, OF COURSE you didn’t do anything, “wrong.” If you really want to know what happened this man is the only one who can tell you. Otherwise it’s just a guess. If this happens to you repeatedly, the feedback might be worth it. But, don’t give up…at some point you’ll meet someone who gets YOU, and this is the point of dating!
Good luck,
Kris
Interesting posts.
Am I the only one besides Cute Redhead who noticed this was a bartering transaction? (If you give me commitment, I may give you sex)
If he doesn’t want to spend his relationship negotiating for sex, he’s absolutely right to move on.
Also, Collette wants to put her preconditions on sex and in general, the relationship. I don’t say she is right or wrong for doing so and it may be perfectly right for HER, but I find it interesting that so many posters assume her guy is a cad or jerk or immature for not wanting to accede to HER preconditions. I don’t know that he’s a cad or jerk any more that Collette is a controlling egoist for wanting to control the relationship & parcel out sex on her terms… See how it can go both ways? Or is it only that “must make men commit and also to our ground rules before sex” is the only acceptable paradigm? Maybe there’s plenty of room for other ways of viewing relationships without the hate & name calling, no?
Cute Redhead’s #20 was spot on. It looks like Collette wants to set all the ground rules for the, or any, relationship because she’s hot (or thinks she is), and therefore guys should wait and kowtow to her ground rules. In return, she may dole out sex. Right minded guys who don’t want to deal with that should, as this guy did, leave. Smacks of hubris. I bet this turned him away, at least in part.
Fact -the more preconditions before sex, the more likely it is he’ll look someplace else for fewer (or none) preconditions. There’s a large market of women out there who won’t barter in such a fashion. That’s cold, but it is the reality. In effect, her guy had other choices, and preferred to exercise them.
Besides, if Collette were really ‘into him’ all of this wouldn’t have occurred…she would’ve happily done the horizontal mambo (or kneeling rhumba, or…?) for that matter
Cat
I have had lots of dates, and I NEVER slept with any of them on the first date. That guy was totally bs’ing you or he goes out with alot of sleazy women.
I agree with Loving Annie, Downtown, and Ron on this subject.
Cute Readhead…WTF?????? You are warped!
Cute Redhead is the only one on here in touch with reality.
The big disconnect between men and women is that men are able to just enjoy the moment, while women think of any relationship not leading to [their preferred form of commitment] as a waste of their time.
And I thought Cute Redhead was just placating the LW in her second paragraph. Go figure.
In any case, a commitment will stem from a mutual desire to be together, not from talking about it or demanding it.
Men don’t always have to get in, sometimes, a hand job will suffice….
…LOL!…give him a hand job!
“Am I the only one besides Cute Redhead who noticed this was a bartering transaction? (If you give me commitment, I may give you sex)”
I don’t think sex should be used to negotiate commitment, but poeple don’t want to run the risk of having sex soon and then the guy bailing. People are not comfortable having sex so soon in a relationship. I’m not saying that the guy should wait months for you, but I do think that if there was genuine interest on his part, at least two months is a reasonable time for him to wait; and of course, communication is important.
It’s not fair to label the guy as a jerk, but I think we can assume that he was not emotionally invested. I don’t think that 4 dates should warrent the guy to disappear because she didn’t sleep with him. Isn’t it obvious what his intentions were?
Colette,
I would suggest you try to look at this situation from a wider perspective. I understand from your post you were interested in this guy enough to want a long-term relationship with him.
In a long-term relationship, you would have hundreds of situations along the way when you and him would have different needs, attitudes, ways of doing things (you shy from risk, he is risk-taking; you are more organised, he is more spontanious, you get me?)
The issues around sex were just the first one in your case.
Can you imagine each one of such situations being solved the way this one was?
Dating is a man’s world, no doubt about it.
Um…has anyone on here ever heard of sarcasm???? Did anyone besides the one poster who mentioned it read my “Ahem” paragraph?
But seriously — you guys really believe that crap I wrote in the first paragraph? And you think I meant that truthfully? But more to the point, what is wrong with you that you think a woman can’t have her own sexual standards and boundaries?
Hard to imagine that that’s working for any of you.
There is nothing wrong with people setting commitment as a precondition for sex. After all, sez is a big deal for almost everyone and most people prefer to share it with someone they are at least familiar with.
My point is here
“http://www.livescience.com/health/060209_love_altruism.html”
A man like that showed that he was looking for – sex – so he wasn’t really looking for her best interests but his own pleasure. How good a relationship it would have been, had she gone forward with as he had wanted?
He did her a favour – she is free to find someone who looks for her best interest to be as important as his own is (therefore the relationship will be happier too).
To cute red head on post # 37,
You didn’t mean everything you said in the first paragraph? AAAhhhhh, Bummer…..LOL!….
A woman doesn’t have to be a “good girl” until the right man comes along. She can do what ever she wants to do, just do it gracefully, ’cause men are watching…..
Well, CR, it really is a shame, but your sarcasm turned out to be right on the mark. Yes, indeed, the most anyone can -ever- hope for is a chance of things working out (hope for, not count on). There are no guarantees; at any stage of the relationship, I might add.
Look, people, Evan constantly says this, and I apparently have to reiterate: this is reality. You don’t have to like it, you can resist it with all your might, but this is how it is. Like I said before, just listen to what the men here are saying (Ron doesn’t count, for several reasons).
I agree with you, JuJu….that’s why I’m back in school working on my education. As Merlin told a would-be King Arthur, “when you’re blue, learn something. Learning never fails!”
Juju,
“Yes, indeed, the most anyone can -ever- hope for is a chance of things working out (hope for, not count on). There are no guarantees; at any stage of the relationship”.
Sure, however many people who are in happy long-term relationships claim that a good relationship requires a lot of work ( and communication, good will, empathy and so on, I might add). From this perspective, pairing up with a “my way or the high way” person, significantly reduces your chance of success.
Well, JuJu–maybe you have to listen to what others are saying. Not everyone shares the same beliefs about sex and sexual activity. There is room for all in this world. If you want nsa sex — go right ahead. If you want committed sex — go right ahead. Not all men are all one way. Not all women are all one way. There are plenty of fish in the sea, enough variations on the sex/commitment theme to go around. Collette can certainly find a guy who wants to wait and she doesn’t have to compromise her standards to find one. Her problem is that she’s having trouble finding a guy who wants to wait. None of us can say why — maybe she likes being the coquette and is sending out the wrong message. Maybe she hangs out with people who have different values from hers and these are the only types of guys she meets. Maybe she’s had a string of bad luck. Or maybe she’s already met the guy who is waiting for the moment to be right for both of them.
CuteReadhead (#37) – good one! Interesting to see how people reacted to your first post.
I just can’t believe we’re having this discussion, particularly in an age of epidemic STD’s. Discussing expectations about sex is a mature, responsible thing to do. And advising against it is reckless and irresponsible. Doesn’t sound as if this guy was on the same page, so it’s just as well.
Evan your advice is doing a great disservice.
Sounds as if Collette’s intentions were noble, and that perhaps something got “lost in translation”.
Without jumping inside the dude’s head, and making the leap of faith that he was not just out for sex, I would suggest that maybe one of three things happened here:
1. He had a bad past experience with another girl who said she wanted to wait, and it was just a smokescreen by her to avoid getting physical. In the dating world, there are women who want to be taken out on weekends, but who hate the prospect of getting physical with the guys who are putting the time in with them. I know that the majority of women aren’t like this, but if you’re a single guy who has dated for any length of time, it is impossible to not run into them. The attitude of such women is “This guy wants to take me out to restaurants and clubs, and I’m gonna let him, but I don’t want to do anything with him.” Perhaps this guy had an experience like that in his past, and if he did, I can promise you that he had no intention of repeating it. If this is the case, then it’s regrettable that it happened this way, but not necessarily surprising.
2. He endured a past relationship where the girl placed all kinds of demands on him for any kind of physical contact. Again, I know not all women are like this, but if you have dated for any length of time, it’s impossible to not run into women who are like this. It’s hard to explain without making it sound like you’re being unreasonable, but it gets to be a drag if the person you’re with constantly needs material things or to be wined and dined before they will get physical. It’s even worse when she acts like she’s doing you a favor by doing it. I know emotional connection is not the same thing, but maybe he thought, “If she’s doing this on the 4th date, imagine what she’ll be like in a year.”
3. His friends got in his ear. He probably talked to some of those same friends that Collette met about what had happened that night. And there’s a chance that the conversation went something like this:
GUY: “She said she wants to make sure I am committed before we have sex.”
FRIEND: “Oh man, did she work you!!”
GUY: “What do you mean?”
FRIEND: “She said that just so she could get the friend stuff out of you without having sex with you. You’re already in the friend zone and you’re never coming out!”
GUY: “No no, she just wants to make sure that it’s serious.”
FRIEND: “Well, you want it to be serious too, but have you put the brakes on her in any way?”
I obviously can’t say that this is what happened for sure, but I can say that I had an experience similar to this, and that I got advice along these lines. (Luckily for me, I ignored it and I turned out to be right.) Still, it cast a shadow of doubt on me for a little while, and that’s something that will cause most men to up and leave.
I honestly think something was just lost in translation in this case. She said one thing, he heard another. It happens. Move on to the next one: there are plenty.
What makes some people think that in this age STD’s are more common than, say, during the Middle Ages?
JuJu – Here’s a suggestion – instead of slamming people on this thread, get educated.
Incredible. Call the Center of Disease Control in Atlanta and get the facts on the increased rate of STDs.
FYI, over 20% of young women have herpes in NYC. It is projected to be 25% in the not-to-distant future.
Now perhaps you might understand why some people like the letter writter won’t hop in the sack without veting potential sexual partners. It’s people with your viewpoints that make the STD world go round.
People like me?
LOL
But I am clean.
Whatever, this isn’t the level of argument I’d be interested in participating in. You haven’t addressed (or, it seems, even understood) a single point I made.
I always get the idea when I read this blog that some men assume sexual desire to be the exclusive province of men, and that because women got the stuff that men want (and women have no sexual desires that need satisfying), they hold all the cards and are using them to manipulate the men. Is this an accurate summation of the discussion here? So that a women who wants to wait is doing it to get as much as she can out of the guy by flaunting her feelingless privates — that’s her assumed motivation. Right or wrong here?
I rest my case. You couldn’t even see my point in my post.
Most people are not ignorant of the fact that STDs are on the rise.
If sex did not have any potential downside, Colette would have banged the guy from here to Broadway. Fortunately for her, she’s dodged a bullet (pun intended) with this guy.
All right, let’s dissect what Cute Redhead wrote (albeit in jest), sentence by sentence.
It is a man’s responsibility to satisfy my sexual needs if he wants to be in a relationship with me. If he doesn’t satisfy them, I’ll find someone who will. Sex is the primary reason people get involved in romantic relationships. I am not disputing the existence or downplaying the importance of whatever other needs we all may have (including one for companionship), but those can be usually met through other means.
Whatever feelings I may or may not develop as a consequence works exactly the same way – i.e., it’s not a given. (And btw, from my observations of the world, it appears that in order for a man to want to commit himself to someone, it’s important for him to feel head over heels in love with that person. You are getting the chronological order of this?)
As for what women get in return (and this is the phrase that should have originally tipped me off): well, what do you mean what do you get in return? You get the sex and the companionship (if only temporarily, but then, almost anything is) of a man you like and find attractive.
The most a man can expect in return for having sex with me is the chance that I’ll pick him over the others. (This doesn’t mean others I am also currently sleeping with, because I personally don’t get physical with more than one person at a time (I don’t even kiss on the first dates for that reason). It means, of all my other possible options.) This really works both ways.
I am stating all this being just as susceptible to the effects of oxytocin as any other woman.
Now, why I said that Ron’s protests in this case don’t count:
1) There is no evidence that the guy in the letter is a cad who only wanted to get into her pants. For instance, I see no incentive for him to have introduced the girl to his friends if he were never seriously interested in her. And the fact that he did end up not only spending the night but also the next day with her also demonstrates, I think, that he did care (he could have just as well taken or sent her home that same evening).
2) No one can mean EVERYTHING to a person after four dates, and anyone who claimed that would be lying.
3) The “personal power” argument shows such a lack of maturity and enlightenment that it is difficult to take it seriously. Besides, this is a normal, decent (albeit non-confrontational) person we are talking about, who, I bet, would react adequately.
Lastly, venereal diseases would be a universal concern and not just that of women. The reason women try to hold off on sex is the above-mentioned hormone – they just get too attached (not in 100% of the cases, but often enough to experience considerable heartache by age 31).
As for what I kept saying (lately, in every topic, it seems) about the necessity of having sex BEFORE considering commitment – it really has nothing to do with nsa sex (nor am I personally cut out for it). It’s just that, you think that if you like a guy, are excited to have met such a quality individual, and can actually see yourself with him, the sex will automatically be good, or at least acceptable? If you are counting on that, then for your sake I really hope you’ll never be disappointed. I, otoh, had an experience dissuade me of that.
“It is a man’s responsibility to satisfy my sexual needs if he wants to be in a relationship with me. If he doesn’t satisfy them, I’ll find someone who will.”
Oh really????
Tomorrow your guy may be out for a car crash and unable to move his little finger for the next 12 months. Good to know what you would do.
oh, and another interesting one:
“The reason women try to hold off on sex is the above-mentioned hormone – they just get too attached”.
Juju, are you familiar with any national (or maybe international?) norms on how attached a woman should feel after having sex with a man? Or is the “TOO attached” evaluation just a reflection of your own level of emotional attachment?
cinnamon,
why the hostility?
There are no norms, obviously – sex just seems to affect women more than men.
As for disability – I don’t know how I’ll react, honestly. I can only hope for the best.
There was a huge discussion of this recently on the Carolyn Has board, and the following woman (who spent 20 years taking care of her husband) said it much better than I possibly could (being much younger, for one, and having not had the experience):
“Caring for an elderly relative, caring for a child – these are not really the same. When the person that needs care is a spouse, there is the added burden of doing *without* all that one has assumed marriage would provide. Sex, yes, but also companionship, and someone to share the physical and financial load of your lives.”
Carolyn Hax, sorry.
Juju,
Just to make sure, this is not meant as any personal attack. People have different attitudes towards sex and relationships and there are no absolute truths.
I think the one thing the original poster did wrong was [i]go home with the guy.[/i]
If you’re not planning to have sex, don’t stay the night (vacations and other practical residential necessities excepted, of course).
Sleeping over is code for sex. Sleeping over but refusing sex is a tease (or can easily be perceived that way by the male mind). Nobody wants to date a tease.
Re: CR’s #51….
Not picking an argument, but challenging assumptions.
“I always get the idea . . . some men assume sexual desire to be the exclusive province of men . . ., women got the stuff that men want . . . they hold all the cards and are using them to manipulate the men. Is this an accurate summation of the discussion here?”
- I’d say that isn’t accurate. However, Collette is using her sexuality as a bargaining chip to secure, nay, demand commitment. On HER terms, I might add. There’s only a manipulation if the guy allows it. Collete’s guy didn’t. Good for him.
“So that a women who wants to wait is doing it to get as much as she can out of the guy by flaunting her feelingless privates that’s her assumed motivation. Right or wrong here?”
- I’d say that’s YOUR characterization of the situation. A wrong one, I might add. Whether or not women in general have feelings in this context is irrelevant, particularly when one bargains their sexuality like it’s on ebay. She (and others who do) do it to get something, though. Whether it is commitment, fealty, or a new Louis Vuitton bag, for example. In this case, it’s the 1st 2 things, methinks. Once a barter is in the offing, it must be analyzed remorselessly & vigorously, without the cloud of ‘feelings’ impairing vision.
As for the Cinn-JuJu exchange, which I find fascinating… I think it’s another case of utopia v. fugly realities. Funny, b/c I agree with both of ‘em.
vino,
As I see it, there is absolutely nothing in Colette’s post that would indicate that she is using sex to bargain for anything.
She seems like a grown up, emotionally healthy woman who sees sex as a part of a monogamous relationship and not a Friday night fun activity. The guy probably had a different outlook on life and it’s better for her that he left now then later.
Colette had the guts to say that she was attracted to him and how see saw sex, the only thing the guy did was to shut the door and leave without any explanation.
And while you apparently think that his commitment is something so precious that she might even think of bargaining about it, I say a commitment from a guy who shuts the door and leaves each time she doesn’t act the way he expected would soon turn into a life-time sentence.
Utopia? Maybe. For me a guy who doesn’t care for how I feel and has a “I get what I want, when I want and how I want” attitiude towards sex (or anything else, for that matter) is someone to be avoided.
Mo’ (#57), interesting insight. If this guy was acting/thinking according to one of your examples, it only demonstrates that he’s not ready for the same level of commitment as Colette and it’s just as well the he didn’t call.
It also demonstrates that sometimes we attract who we THINK we see. If a guy thinks that ‘all women are golddiggers’, based on one or two bad experiences, well, guess what? he’ll view all women that way and treat them accordingly, with a sense of distrust.
You can say the same thing for women who say ‘all guys are jerks’.
I’m getting off topic here, but the bottom line is that if you’re looking for something in a relationship, set boundaries for yourself and don’t settle. And live in the moment, don’t assume that the next one is going to act like the last one.
I agree with Schlockdoc! If Colette was not ready to have sex, she should have said that to him before going to his apartment!
Jojo,
And maybe she did tell him she wasn’t ready to have sex, but he still wanted to go to her appartment and said he would not insist, so she made him a bed on the sofa in order not to make him think she was a tease, but he didn’t call anyway? Who knows?
This happens, too. To plenty of women.
Bottom line is he didn’t call.
Cinnamon- I’m not justifying what he did! From my previous comments you will see that it seems clear what his intentions were. All ‘m saying is before sleeping in a guys house, you should make it clear what you will and will not do. If the guy agrees, then that’s really on him. Colette says she went back to his place and then tells him and so they just cuddled. Again, I don’t agree with his actions; I’m simply advising women to make there boundaries clear before sleeping at some guys house!
Wow, Evan, that’s some sharp stuff there.
I read about half the comments and scanned the rest, but I think there’s a huge component everyone has missed. Sex is PART of the relationship…a person’s sexual values are of tremendous importance to the overall relationship. Does the person like it fast or slow? Does the person like oral or hate it? How often and how much sexual energy does she bring to the table? An extension of those sexual values is the amount of affection the partner can give (and receive) and yes, how does that person make me feel, which Evan and others talked about. Does she make me feel sexy and desired, or unattractive and dull?
I could never commit to a relationship without FIRST having sex with the girl, because that’s the only way you’ll truly know what her values are. I think it’s absurd to even consider committing without first going on the test drive. Only after a night of hot (or not) sex would I truly know that we’re good LTR partners.
The guy did the right thing by removing himself from the picture, but he douched it up by not explaining to her why.
If I had to give advice to Colette, it would be that she needs to at least go to third base, consider having sex BEFORE pressuring the guy to commit, and communicate her values from the get-go.
Lance,
Lucky you. I suspect the girls you’re getting have been test driven by many potential users, so you must be getting them as demos at considerable discount
Cinnamon, what does it matter how many people someone has slept with? It seems like searching for a LTR is about finding someone with similar values–you don’t have to judge the other person’s values, only determine whether they’re compatible with yours.
The BF and I had determined that we would be monogamous while sleeping together (largely for safety reasons), but we didn’t consider ourselves an official couple for three or four months, despite sleeping together on the first date. I think that type of arrangement is workable from a safety perspective (and values perspective) without anyone having to sign in blood before they know if they’re physically/sexually compatible.
I don’t know if that’s what Lance meant, or if it’s what Collette meant, either. It’s entirely possible that we’re misinterpreting the level of “committment” she was asking him for–she didn’t necessarily want a marriage proposal, but more of a “temporary halt” while they figured out what was going on with them.
I find this post interesting and I have a number of questions that I would love for anyone to answer.
1. Why was the guy considered a jerk because he wouldn’t commit to her? He wasn’t mean; he didn’t try to change her mind; he didn’t kick her out. She asked for what she wanted and he let her know that he wasn’t willing to give her that. Why in the world does that make him a jerk or an assclown? In my mind, neither one of them did anything wrong.
2. Why didn’t she call him? At what point in dating can a woman initiate a phone call? It seems to me that if they spent all that time together, she could have called him — not to talk about the “relationship,]” per se, but just to say hi or I had fun last night. Perhaps he thought that because he wouldn’t commit on the spot that SHE was no longer interested in him.
It has been my experience that in the dating world, misunderstandings and misinterpretations run rampant. Some behavior has one obvious interpretation, but others don’t. Yet for some reason, we always want to go with the worst explanation….the one that makes the guy a jerk or the woman a bitch.
Some people on this site have said that people can have different views and values, and while people do indeed have different views and values, I get a strong impressions that most people here think there is a right way and a wrong way to do everything — their way of course is usually right or better or more noble. Other views are not respected and barely tolerated. For example, there is a very strong bias that sex is really only right in the context of a caring relationship, but sex just for the fun of it is somehow wrong or bad or at the very least less noble. Isn’t that why men who only want sex seem to be so hated? If the guy is upfront about his intensions (and many are), why is that bad?
Finally, I know most people aren’t going to agree with me, but given how many people — both men and women– cheat — I just have to wonder if people really want to be monogamous. Is monogamy a social construct that still serves us as a society? I think as internet dating become more popular, there are going to be fewer and fewer people willing to settle for just one person.
Honey,
“It’s entirely possible that we’re misinterpreting the level of committment she was asking him for she didn’t necessarily want a marriage proposal, but more of a temporary halt while they figured out what was going on with them”.
That’s a question which I meant to raise at some point in this discussion and forgot.
Personally, I cannot imagine any other type of “commitment” on the 4th date then a “temporary halt” and do not interpret Colette’s request as anything else than asking for being monogamous while they were sleeping together. I do not see any other options exactly for safety reasons.
Personally, I have never seen myself in a “no sex before marriage” arrangement, though I have respect for people who do. What astonishes me is men who seem to make a “fast forward” in their minds and then somehow project this on the women they meet. I’m not saying this is the case with respect to Colette’s guy, but I have myself stumbled on such phenomenon at least once.
@Cinnamon: I have no problem with highly experienced women, and in fact I prefer it. These women are usually very in touch with their sexual side and compatible with my values. Sluts? I love’em!!
@Tyler: You’ve got some great points in there. To point #1, the guy was pretty cool the whole time…his only possible mistake was not taking the time/energy to TELL her he wasn’t interested. Instead, he flaked, which is a douchey move, but a fairly mild mistake in my book.
Another good point you made, why didn’t she just contact him and ask what was the matter? I didn’t see any where in her message that she put forth effort to maintain the connection or find out if something was wrong. At least part of that is her responsibility.
Anyway, Evan gave great advice on this one. I wish women would stop waiting for a guy to commit to a relationship before giving him the “gift” of her sex, it’s totally ridiculous.
on post #68
A demo at a considerable discount? Every mans fantasy!….Where are they?……LOL!………
Tyler we don’t even know if he was willing to commit to her. Or if he’s a jerk. Based on what Collette is saying, it sounded as if she was up front, but he didn’t let her know, instead he sent her mix signals. So based on this, many on this board – men & women alike – determined that it sounds as if he was only interested in having sex.
And it’s not cool her to follow up with him, especially in this instance. What good would it do? Collette would only be blown off again.If the guy really wanted to contact her he already would have.
Downtowngal,
I guess I don’t see that he sent mixed signals — she asked him to committ and she said he didn’t say anything. In my mind, that means no or at least not yet. There were a number of people who did say he was a jerk because all he wanted was sex. And my question is even if all a man wants is sex, if he is honest about it, why is he a jerk or an asshole.
I wasn’t suggesting that she follow up with him 4 weeks later or now. I was asking after one or two days went by, why couldn’t she call him and say hi? As I said, perhaps he needed some reassurance that she was still interested even if he wasn’t ready to commit. I am only throwing that out because I think women (myself included) tend to forget that men actually can feel vulnerable and unsure. I met a guy on the internet and we had nice conversations. But something happened and we never went out. Long story short, I was adhering to the ‘if he is really interested, he will do all the work’ tenet of dating. In a very candid conversation, he told me that he was just tired of chasing women only to be rebuffed or worse. Just once, he wished a woman would really show him the SHE like him. I’m sure some women will think he just needed to man up and he’s probably not alpha enough for most women here. But for me, that was the first time I really understood that this dating thing is hard on guys too. So, all I am saying is that maybe, just maybe, SHE needed to reach out to him first and let him know that she still liked him. Of course, everyone wants to avoid reaching out because we don’t want to give up our “power.” What power are we giving up exactly? The power to be human and vulnerable and real? Perhaps we need to be more courageous and be willing to say even though I’m not sure how you feel about me, I like you. If you don’t feel the same way, no hard feelings. I’ll just move on. Instead, we always want the other person to admit they like us first — so that we have more power. Well, I bet that there are a lot of really powerful people who are alone.
Vino, post #61. I didn’t say that’s what I believed, I said that was the impression I got from reading this board. Why doesn’t anyone read my posts correctly? Am I not being clear?
Lance, #67. Why is your impression that she was pressuring him to commit? There wasn’t any pressure there. See Cinnamon, #62 and Tyler, #70.
Tyler, #70. I question your assumption that in the past people just settled for one person and that monogamy was the norm. It does seem to be the case that in days of yore, before women had alternatives to marriage, that only men were able to get away with it without punishment, and the wives just had to suck it up. So I’m not sure that monogamy has ever really been the norm for all of the population; maybe just for the female half for whom divorce would have been a terrifying reality. Now we’re all just more honest about sexuality and divorce is easier and women don’t bear all of the burden for men’s lustful actions (because of the Pill and DNA testing), and we women don’t have to get married and thank god for that. We even get to pursue our own lustful actions. And men get to be as promiscuous as they want without criticism or social consequence, and the internet, bless it, is a handy way to hook up (or just a good place to see naked ladies do different things, which used to be much harder and more expensive to watch).
“I wish women would stop waiting for a guy to commit to a relationship before giving him the gift of her sex, it’s totally ridiculous.”
Of course, never mind what she wants.
I wish guys would stop expecting women to accept dates with them to see if they’re actually interested. and I wish guys would stop thinking they had to call a woman after she gives him the ‘gift’ of sex. I mean, how gauche. After all, what’s the point of dating if we don’t have sex?
Oops — the “it” in “get away with it” above is cheating.
(And I’m sure that Vino is going to come up with some argumentative response about how women were victimizing men back in the days of yore, when women were stoned for having extramarital sex or raped for their brother’s crime against another tribe or — oh, wait. That’s still going on today…)
Cute Redhead,
You are could be right that monogamy wasn’t in fact the norm in the past. However, it was held up as the ideal — even if men chose not to live that way. I’m just wondering in this day and age should it even be an ideal if that’s not really what a lot of people want or what they do.
You wrote something interesting. We may be more honest about our sexuality, but we still have some very puritan beliefs — women who have sex with lots of guys are still labeled sluts or if women have sex with a guy on the first date, he thinks she is easy and therefore not serious material. I would prefer more than just honesty, I would prefer an acceptance of different sexual values between consenting adults– none better than the other, just different.
on post #70
We are powerful people. So powerful, that we out power ourselves!!!!!………
to Cute red head,
…I read all your posts correctly….
Wow, it’s cathartic to see so many people talk about my anonymous little story though I could probably do without reading a few of these.
This happened a few months ago, and at some point soon afterward I concluded that most likely he was seeing other people, or at least was holding out hope that he could, and that’s as good as saying that he wasn’t into me enough. I have moved on.
To reiterate: I didn’t ask him for a commitment. I just didn’t want to sleep around. I didn’t even say we couldn’t see each other any more, and I definitely did not say no to any physical activity at all (sorry Evan, but this is one where you missed the mark). I like to think that he simply decided hey, I’m considering being with another girl, she’s not cool with that, so I’ll just be a semi-decent dude and let her go find someone else. Notice that I never called him a jerk or a d-bag. He may have fallen a little short in the communication arena, but no shocker there: he’s a single 35-year old.
There was probably no need for me to call him, either. I’m going to take a leap here and give him enough credit to have realized that I had put my feelings on the line, and he didn’t reciprocate. Guys, when was the last time a girl said to you, I might have feelings for you, and then you went home to sit twiddling your thumbs impatiently by the phone for her to call you again? He was verrry good at picking up the phone and asking me out. This guy wanted a casual relationship. Whatever that means I didn’t. Next.
My real question to Evan was whether the idea of no sex outside of a committed relationship is going to hurt my chances of finding someone I like. I can see how it might, given the hostile attitude that a lot of guys seem to have about spending a lot of time with a girl they like (aka, commitment). Not all guys feel that way, but I would like to see more women have enough self-respect to ask honest questions and demand honest behavior, and more men use their real brains to be respectful if they sense a girl is looking to be serious. I think I did get that respect in this situation, thanks to the fact that I asked for it.
to the last word,
Women are different, they are just different, it takes time for a woman to warm up to a man.
agreed, hunter. i was being sarcastic.
Thanks, Colette, for piping in and letting us know what happened.
I find it interesting that a lot of the guys who are promoting sex before commitment on this board are praising Evan’s post and his advice, when his advice to women (both sexes, actually, I believe) is to wait on having sex until a commitment exists between the couple in question.
I’d also like clarification on one point. Vino and some others feel that Colette was using sex as a bargaining tool (ie, I won’t have sex unless you commit to me). Does the same hold true for the abstinence folk (ie, I won’t have sex unless you marry me)? I don’t think that Colette was trying to bargain with her sexuality, but others did. Just trying to see the other folks’ side on this.
Great follow-up, Collette! Like I said in my first post on this thread, I think you’ve got it all together.
In some ways, maybe it’s just a numbers thing. A lot of people date around with several people before they pick just one person to settle down with. That means that at any given point in time you have a lot of people who aren’t ready to marry/commit/be exclusive who are out there dating around in a multiple way. Once they choose they are out of the dating pool. This might make it seem like most guys (since we’re women dating guys) are only into nsa sex or don’t want to commit, b/c that’s where most dating guys are in their life.
I don’t know how you separate out the “just dating around” guys from the “seriously looking” guys. Certain sites are more geared toward relationship (eHarmony) and less toward hooking up. And certain environments (bars) are more geared toward hooking up and less toward relationship.
I think your approach is a good one, though. If you take nsa sex off the table you weed out the “just dating around” guys right away. A guy who is seriously looking will respect that if he is seriously considering you b/c what guy is looking to be exclusive with a woman who is sleeping around? Just like you aren’t looking to partner up with a guy who is/seems to be sleeping around.
It does amuse me, though, that the same people who sleep around while they’re dating complain that they can’t find anyone “good enough” to marry, that all that’s out there are dinner whores and guys who are into nsa sex. We reap what we sow.
Re: Cute Redhead’s #76 –
“Vino, post #61. I didn’t say that’s what I believed, I said that was the impression I got from reading this board. Why doesn’t anyone read my posts correctly? Am I not being clear?”
– Are we reading the same words? Where did I say that’s what YOU believed? I didn’t.
Re: Cute Redhead’s #78 –
“(And I’m sure that Vino is going . . . .another tribe or oh, wait. That’s still going on today)”
- I read CR’s posts re: me and am thoroughly convinced that there is a dogged intention to disagree and grossly misstate what’s been previously stated. *sigh*
Tyler’s #70 was quite good, with many good points.
I’d have to point out to others that when someone says ‘if you give me commitment, I may give you sex’ it is the very definition of a bartering transaction. It’s no different from an attorney who reviews some loan documents for a mechanic who, in return will fix attorney’s brakes. I’m simply calling it for what it is. That many posters dislike this accurate characterization is telling.
My points are a bit different. I think Collette’s absolutely entitled to her approach and opinion. Such approaches and opinions are not the only right ones, though. Look at the characterizations/demonizations that are posted regarding men who disagree with the “my way or highway” approach:
“For me a guy who doesn’t care for how I feel and has a I get what I want, when I want and how I want attitiude towards sex (or anything else, for that matter) is someone to be avoided.”
“A man like that showed that he was looking for – sex – so he wasn’t really looking for her best interests but his own pleasure.”
- calling him selfish
I think others simply called him a cad or jerk (haven’t gone through all posts).
I’d also like to point out that Collette’s #82 says volumes..
Paragraph 2 “Notice that I never called him a jerk or a d-bag. He may have fallen a little short in the communication arena, but no shocker there: he’s a single 35-year old.”
- Notice she points to the fact she never called him a name, then disparages him.
Paragraph 3 “He was verrry good at picking up the phone and asking me out. This guy wanted a casual relationship. Whatever that means I didn’t. Next.”
- Conclusory. As another poster pointed out, she could have taken the initiative to call HIM (perish the thought). She didn’t, arriving at this conclusion. Perhaps an equally correct conclusion is he didn’t want a relationship with someone who only want her way (no commitment, no sex; I won’t call him).
Paragraph 4 “Not all guys feel that way, but I would like to see more women have enough self-respect to ask honest questions and demand honest behavior, and more men use their real brains to be respectful if they sense a girl is looking to be serious.”
- So guys who don’t toe her line are dishonest AND stupid? Please. I’m guessing this thought process drove him away more than anything else.
I come back to the point that it’s just as easy to call a woman a control freak, domineering bitch or other similar term for demanding commitment before sex, as it is to call a guy a jerk, cad or selfish twit because they won’t do things how YOU want. I simply don’t see that it solves anything.
Tyler may have said it best. “I would prefer more than just honesty, I would prefer an acceptance of different sexual values between consenting adults none better than the other, just different.”
Not a whole lot of acceptance on this board…
Thanks to Colette for the enlightening reply, which should help to refocus the dialogue. Since her real question is whether holding off on sex until commitment will reduce her chances of finding someone she likes, the answer is yes, and EMK answered it well. Any time you have any kind of standard, you’re weeding out some folks, a lot of whom might be jackasses but also possibly a few gems. That’s the risk you take. It’s probably a worthy risk.
Personally, I’ll take that risk, because my relationship values are important, my values just happen to be different from Colette’s and most of the readership. I prefer fast women because their values are inline with my own. If Colette is attractive, which she says she is, she shouldn’t have a problem finding a guy with similar values as long as she puts in the work.
“Collette is using her sexuality as a bargaining chip to secure, nay, demand commitment.”
It does seem that way, yes. Since she has been following the discussion, maybe she will elaborate. If it’s true, then part of the solution might be to not advertise as “hot,” to still look good, but not in a way that says “Imagine what sex with me would be like.”
This post keeps getting more and more interesting.
A-L, I guess it all depends on what your definition of bargaining is. I don’t think it’s wrong for a woman to have terms of engagement for sex, i.e. I won’t have sex unless you commit. At the same time, it’s not wrong if a man says — hmm — I don’t like your terms, so no thanks. Women feel as if guys are bad for saying no. The way I see it is that women who don’t put some kind of condition on sex — ie. you must like me, you must commit to me, you must marry me, etc. — are often labeled sluts or told they have low self-esteem — why else would they have sex without getting something that other women value (ie commit, love, etc.) in return. For women, the pleasure of sex doesn’t seem to be enough.
Colette, I’m glad you are back. I have a question for you. As I read your question to Evan, I couldn’t really understand the significance of pointing out the you are “hot.” I could only come up with two reasons for why that would be relevant. Since you are hot, men should do what you want them to do. Or since you are hot, a man can’t possibly control himself from wanting to have sex with you. So, while less attractive women can hold a guy off, a hot woman can’t. I don’t know if those were your reasons but I just couldn’t think of why your appearance mattered in this instance. Any man who goes out with a woman four times finds her attractive even if the woman may not be in your league. So, can you clarify why your “hotness” is an issue, please.
In your follow up response you wrote something that made me feel perhaps your problem has been how you come across to men. You wrote ” women should have enough self respect to ask questions and demand honest behavior and more men should use their real brains to be respectful if they sense a girl is looking to be more serious.” Perhaps you are coming across as too demanding — wanting to have all your needs met without really considering the guy. Many men — especially hot ones — feel demanding women just aren’t worth the effort and will bail. Finally, women have to take care of themselves and their hearts. To have the expectation that a man that you’ve only known a short time — or even a long time — is responsible for you is just setting yourself up for a lot of heartache. As a woman, if you sense that you want more than he does, YOU have to back off. All too often women want to play the victim of a man’s “bad” behavior when in reality in almost every instance, they themselves are responsible for letting a man treat them in a way they find unacceptable. You can ask — not demand — that a man treat you the way you like, if he doesn’t , move on. End of story.
Wow — reading this has been very interesting — many different takes on it. I think a point of confusion is how Colette stated she wanted a commitment before sex. We don’t know what she said or did but I have found that making “I” statements is the only way to be clear enough to people, therefore I say that “I don’t do well with nsa sex, I get attached, it’s best for me to be more considerate of myself and not sleep with just anyone, therefore, I need to get to know you a little more before we have sex,” this doesn’t mean there aren’t other ways that I’m being clear that I like them and that we are moving forward in the relationship, it just clarifies that I need to be sure I know them well enough. And I’m not asking for “commitment,” I’m asking for time to get to know them. When I am ready to sleep with them, I make it clear that I don’t want to be one of many, but am in no way bargaining anything. This is to protect my feelings from getting hurt, not ensnaring a man to me.
Second, it’s been discussed above that monogamy is the tradition, but really it isn’t. Our views on marriage and monogamy are new and actually very American — and as Americans, we are very Puritanical. In most other cultures, it has been traditional for people to marry not for love but for societal reasons, therefore each spouse had lovers and were discreet. It’s only in the last few hundred years, when marrying for love entered the picture, that we wanted our spouse (boyfriend, whatever) to be the ONE to fill all of our desires/wants/needs. It’s a tough row to hoe and it doesn’t seem to be working — esp not long term. Maybe our view that our significant other should satisfy our every dream and fanstasy, as well as cook, clean, be great in bed, and fiduciarily responsible, is naive and irresponsible. But society has set us up like that — as we watch Disney movies and learn to demand that we will fall in love with Mr. Perfect and *want* him for the rest of our long lives.
Tyler,
“The way I see it is that women who don’t put some kind of condition on sex ie. you must like me, you must commit to me, you must marry me, etc. are often labeled sluts or told they have low self-esteem why else would they have sex without getting something that other women value (ie commit, love, etc.) in return. For women, the pleasure of sex doesn’t seem to be enough.”
Personally, I’ve never noticed such distinction between women. I have however noticed a distintion between people (men and women alike) who do believe that love and sex go hand in hand, and people who believe that love and sex are two separate things and can be realised in two different contexts.
I would hypothesize that women who sleep with men who, as you say, do not like them, do not love them and are not comitted to them, are often described as having low self-esteem not because they do not get anything in return, but because the men they sleep with refer to them with no respect and they are fine with it (see Lance’s “Sluts? I love em!!”, or “test-drive” as a description of sex indicating that the woman is being tested like a product).
and again re: #89
Another idea that quite surprises me is your perception that women who fancy nsa sex do it out of generosity and because they enjoy sex, while women who prefer to have sex with partners who like or love them do it “against payment” (i.e. in return for love or commitment). You might find it unbelievable, but there are people who actually enjoy sex with partners who care for them and they do it for the sake of pleasure.
cinnamon,
it’s called straw man argumentation, what you are doing.
Juju,
You’re welcome to correct my understanding of the arguments which I referred to if you belive I have misstated them.
@ Vino #61
You make her sound so domineering for not wanting to have sex without commitment. As a woman, I tend to view the situation a little bit differently. I’m also a woman who does not have sex unless I am in a committed relationship; however, I don’t view it is a bargaining chip- I think that’s how many men think we view it. When I refuse to have sex outside of a committed relationship, it’s not because I’m using ulterior motives to try and get the commitment so much as trying to protect myself from suffering emotional attachment that results from sleeping with someone when there are no grounds upon which to develop said attachment. Haven’t you heard a ton of guys bitch about women becoming too attached over sex when it was just sex? Well, not having sex outside of a committed relationship is our response to that little dilemma. I can only imagine that many women view this issue in the same way and are withholding sex as a means of protecting themselves emotionally, NOT as a means of snaring some guy into the trap you like to call relationships.
@Anonymous, #96–although that’s not how I operate, it’s well put and I think that many women (and men) feel that way. When you view it that way, it’s not a bargaining chip because you’re not saying, “If you say we’re in a committed relationship then I will have sex with you,” you’re saying, “once we BOTH feel that we are in a committed relationship then sex will happen naturally.” The sex is just being postponed until it’s clear that both people are on the same page–which is the only time sex should *ever* happen.
If both people are on the same page and that page is “casual sex”–great. Have casual sex. Same with committment. It’s when the two people are on different pages that trouble ensues, and if the only page that is possible for you is being committed first, then you’re not trying to force anyone to make a committment they don’t want to make, you’re just letting them know what page you’re on.
Personally, if I was opposed to casual sex and told a guy that I wanted to wait until we were in a committed relationship to have sex and the guy said, “all right then! Let’s do it!” then I’d have to not see that guy anymore, either, because it’d be all too clear what he was after.
Cinnamon,
I think that when people don’t see eye to eye on something, they tend to twist the interpretation of the opposing viewpoint to the extreme. I never, ever indicated that people in caring relationships don’t receive pleasure having sex. So, no, I don’t find it “unbelievable that there are people who actually enjoy sex with partners who care for them and they do it for the sake of pleasure.” All I was ever trying to question is why we have to be so harsh and judgmental on people — especially men — who want the pleasure of sex without the commitment.
Ok, let me fill in some more details of exactly what happened. I know I said there was probably no need for me to call him, but the truth is time passed and I still felt pretty hurt after a weekend that I had thought was special. Against my better judgment I broke down and emailed him, saying that I hoped there wasn’t some misunderstanding, that I liked him and had hoped to see more of him, but if he wanted to see other people I understood. He answered that he did want to see me again but he only wanted a casual relationship. It’s just never fun to hear someone tell you that they don’t like you quite as much as you like them. I took a deep breath, picked myself back up and decided to move on for the next, hopefully better, guy.
Next extra bit of info: We met on eHarmony, and both of us had listed there that we can’t stand someone who has sex outside a committed relationship. I obviously make an effort to make this clear, because I’ve learned over time that many guys, even the nice ones, are willing to try to sleep with pretty girls without commitment. My experience compared to certain friends of mine suggests that few men would put on the same show to sleep with a not-so-hot girl that they don’t really have feelings for, but I’d be delighted to be proven wrong about this.
In hindsight I don’t harbor any resentment about this guy because when it came time for him to decide whether he liked me that much, he respected the way that I wanted to be treated. I am even fine with the fact that we often don’t know whether we like a person enough to commit right at first. Maybe he thought it was worth finding out if I was the kind of girl he wanted to commit to, didn’t expect an eHarmony girl to be good looking and confident, and then switched gears when he realized I wasn’t his soulmate but it would be fun to give the bedroom the old college try. It just took me by surprise because I thought I had been so careful.
I really don’t mind the fact that some people are happier with casual sex than others, as long as everyone is up front with each other and themselves. Many of the bloggers here seem hell-bent that either he (a representative of all men) or I (representing all women) did something wrong. I just don’t think that debate is useful. At this point I’m not going to change my mind about casual sex just because some guys want to keep the pool of easy women large. Can we all agree that it’s fine for everyone to want what they want as long as people are honest and no one gets hurt? I don’t see why my choices should be a problem for men who clearly want to date a different type of woman. I was just trying to get a realistic picture of how long it was going to take me to weed through all the casual dates before I could find what I’m looking for.
How long until you find what you’re looking for? It could be the next guy. It could be a guy in five years. There is no one-size-fits-all answer, but you deserve a lot of credit for asking the question.
Thanks for submitting your personal story for dissection from our very informed and very opinionated readers.
Best,
Evan
Colette-
Thank you for sharing your experience with us. I too have been on eHarmony, and I have to correct your thinking in that it’s only the “hot” girls that the guys want to take to bed without a commitment. I’ve been on eHarmony twice in the last 9 months, and I feel like I’ve like met every guy imaginable except my soulmate–the lying cheat who just wanted sex, the “nice” guy with no chemistry and the Nigerian dating scammer (looong story there!!!). But the point of my post is that I’m a 45 year old divorcee with two kids and “curvy”, and yet I have no problem finding guys that want to have sex with OR without a commitment.
I TOTALLY agree with your philosophy of waiting until you’re in a committed relationship for sex. However, you’re most recent post smacks of egotism, which I’m wondering that the guy you wrote about didn’t pick upon–ie–he was entitled to be in a relationship with you and even more so if you moved it to a more intimate level??? By stating that you’re “hot”, which other commenters have picked up on, and then saying in essence your “less hot friends wouldn’t have the options”, you’re transmitting an air of entitlement, which is a HUGE turn-off, no matter how “hot” you are.
@ Honey #97
Yes, that is exactly what I meant. I wasn’t saying that all women are this way, but it is my submission to Vino that many of the women who are waiting to have sex until in a relationship are doing it for those reasons. You were also correct in what you said about not sleeping with the guy who says, “Ok, we’re committed then, let’s go have sex.” I would not sleep with that person either. I don’t necessarily define a committed relationship by words, so a verbal agreement on the part of the guy just to get in my pants won’t get him sex- what was that phrase, actions speak louder than words? Ahh yes, that’s it. To many people, unless the other person is a really, really, really good actor (which can happen), it will be pretty clear from the other person’s actions whether the relationship is there or not. In my opinion, the verbal agreement should be merely an acknowledgement of what already is. Basically, I just wanted to say to Honey that that was a pretty good interpretation of what I was trying to convey. I also wanted to elaborate a bit lest Vino poke holes in my argument because he thought I was saying that sex would happen immediately upon verbal acknowledgement of commitment, which as Honey said, was not the case. Also, my telling a guy this would be me being up front with him about where I stand, not my telling him that he must commit to me and play by my rules. Someone should not be forced to have sex with someone else when they’re not ready just so that the other person doesn’t accuse them of playing games and demanding that they get their way. Any person who has enough respect for themselves to wait until they are ready (whether that be on the first date or after 10,000 dates) is NOT a domineering bitch for having this self respect, and I think that’s the bottom line.
Anon’s #96
“I don’t view it is a bargaining chip . . . many women view this issue in the same way and are withholding sex as a means of protecting themselves emotionally, NOT as a means of snaring some guy into the trap you like to call relationships.”
- So it’s about CONTROL? I feel so much better now. The ‘snaring’ is just a bonus? And it still is a barter, even if *you* don’t want to look at it that way. I notice there’s nothing in similar posts about his feelings or how it may deepen intimacy for HIM and HER. Just ‘my way or highway.’
Sorry, but I see Collette’s posts as full of anger as pointed out before…. her #99 is the classic example of double-speak…
Para 1 – “. . . and decided to move on for the next, hopefully better, guy.”
Para 3 – “In hindsight I don’t harbor any resentment about this guy . . .”
You gotta be kidding me. I come back to the original letter…
“I’m a 31-year old woman, and have been dating a lot but have had little success. I’d say I’m in the very attractive category and have no trouble getting casual dates, but few guys seem serious.”
What’s the common denominator here to all of hr dates?
Tyler,
You may be right, I might still be affected by one of the previous threads where opinions that “sex is best with bitches” were put forward.
But I do read your post as indicating that women who prefer sex within a committed relationship do it IN ORDER to get love or committment in return.
Personally, while I was more judgmental about casual sex when I was younger, I’ve arrived to the point that I really don’t mind whathever kind of casual sex anyone prefers, as long as they do not try to realise it with me.
What makes me angry is not whether or not the guy only wanted a casual relationship, but it’s the fact that Colette has been depicted by some posters as a calculated manipulator.
I also believe that while it is awkward to really discuss future only on the 4th date, if you find out you’re not at the same page you owe the person whose life you choose to disappear from at least a word of explanation.
Vino-
She’s a bright attractive woman who didn’t want to sleep with non-committal guy.
Give it a rest.
Evan
Vino,
I’m not saying this in anger or with sarcasm. Protecting your emotional boundaries is not equal with wishing to control the other person. This is exactly the difference between an emotionally healthy person and a controlling one.
As I understand it, a controlling person is someone who cannot see their emotional boundaries and therefore they try to steer more than they in reality can.
I’ve dated women who have busted out the “I need things to go slow” line; 50% of the time that means they aren’t really interested. Whenever I hear that, regarding sex or the dating relationship, I back off slightly. Usually it leads to the disintegration of the “relationship.” Once, after that line, we went out and she hardly spoke to me at dinner, claiming she didn’t feel well. I placed my bet on her not being interested. I waited several days to call, she seemed distant, so I never called again. Then, I ran into her a couple months later, and she was pissed at me for blowing her off and not calling, wondering what had happened. What happened was she wanted to slow down, I did, and then she didn’t express interest. I wanted to be shown “I am in to you, dude.” I was completely shocked that she felt I was the douche for not calling anymore.
For the original poster, In this case, the best thing to do is own your half. Call a day or two later and ask “what’s up.” Any number of reasons could be why he flaked out — only wanting sex being a probable one — but not the only one. You will lose out on a few gems if you don’t take more risks, but that doesn’t mean you won’t find a shiny one in time who you wear well. But if things are progressing, but you then put on the brakes slightly, I think the onus is on you to follow up with the guy and demonstrate you are interested. “If he likes me, he’ll respect my decision and show me he is still interested.” Maybe. But when we are told to slow the pace down, sometimes we get confused. It’s great if you are assertive enough to ask for what you want; take it one step further and follow up with the guy yourself. Some of those who flake out probably are interested and are decent matches. Calling a month later is not advised, but 2-3 days is.
It’s too bad that Colette’s update doesn’t explain what she means by “hot.” People lie all the time on dating sites (and elsewhere), and if (not likely) Colette resembles Pam Anderson, can you really blame a guy who pretends to be interested in a serious relationship when she seems to be pretending on that note also? (While the times are changing, many women still tend to claim to be more chaste than they truly are.) Also, the guys would pursue a “hot” woman are more likely to be the attractive, “confident” guys with an appetite for casual sex, and in many cases the cover hints at the book’s content, if one looks closely enough.
I have one last thought for Collete that may be useful. For some people, the characteristic or trait that they themselves feel most defines who they are is the one that they use to explain many bad and good things that happen to them. For example, I had a friend on who was very overweight. She blamed many of her problems on her weight can’t get a boyfriend, can’t get a promotion, can’t do lots of other stuff. She lost a lot of weight, and guess what? She was no more successful at getting a boyfriend (at least not on the timeframe she expected) and no promotion. To be fair, she did gain the confidence to do some other things, but it really wasn’t the weight that prevented her, it was her fear of being ridiculed.
So, how does this little tale apply to you? Perhaps your attractiveness and your desire for a committed relationship isn’t the issue. Perhaps the issue is how you make a man feel when you are with him. You want him to feel special just as you are special. You don’t want him to feel that you think he is lucky just to be with you. You don’t want a man to think wow, she’s hot, but she wants me to kiss her ass. Not many hot guys are going to sign you for that….cause they don’t have to. Instead when he thinks about you he should think wow, I feel great when I am with her. We are great together. And she is so hot. I’m the luckiest guy in the world. You in turn should feel the same way. If a man feels that way about you, you won’t have to ask him to commit. He’ll be asking you.
on post #107,
How true, women like to be chased, some women like to be chased, even after they asked you to stay away.
on post #108,
You are right the definition of being “hot” varies, from one person to the next……
Re: post #110: No matter what you believe the woman “wants,” if she asks you to stay away, stay away. Otherwise it’s stalkerish. And even if she is crazy and gives out those dread mixed signals, take what she says on face value. That means that if someone says they are not interested, back away. And stay away. Many a time I’ve been in the situation where the guy says flat out that he doesn’t want a relationship. I stay and wait, and I’m a fool and he can play me however he wants to. But I back off and next thing I know he’s all over me — mostly wanting sex, of course. In the past I (foolishly) have taken this as an indication that he had come around and now wanted a relationship. Wrong! After a few hits of this kind of behavior I revised my way of doing things — now I believe a guy when he says flat out that he doesn’t want a relationship — but I don’t fall for any attempt to get “close” to me after that. I just move on. It does drive the pursuing-ambivalent guy a bit crazy and I have to deal with the mind f**k aspect of it for a little while and keep turning him away, but that’s better than being involved with someone who isn’t clear about what he wants. If you fall for this person’s shenanigans you have no defense when things get all whacky (as they will); they can always say “I TOLD you I didn’t want [a relationship, to sleep with you, etc.].”
I’ve dated quite a bit over, ahem, many years. Many times a guy would come on like he was very into me and I would in short order discover he was either playing the field, or had chosen someone else he was dating over me. Since I had a tendency to get into sex fairly quickly, I was disappointed and yes, hurt, a number of times. I used to make assumptions regarding exclusivity–since I always was, surely he was also right? Not right.
A few years back, on a first date, a man told me he usually dated more than one woman at a time–how did I feel about that? Well, I completely appreciated his honesty for one thing. Since I wasn’t at the time looking for anything serious right off the bat, I agreed to date him and see how it went. I warned him that if I fell in love with him, then the “others” thing would need to be re-negotiated.
For about 2.5 mos. it was okay as a casual r’ship. I realized though, that I wanted something more (and NOT with him) and I broke it off. He understood, but wanted to keep it going anyway until I found someone I fell in love with. I laughed. And I said no, I didn’t want to do that.
Later that year I did meet someone else I wanted to date and I was very upfront about wanting us to be on the same page about not seeing other people if we were to sleep together. It wasn’t a problem. There are PLENTY of men who aren’t threatened by exclusivity in dating. It’s merely an agreement to concentrate on each other for the time being, not a marriage proposal. Hell, you could sleep with each other once and never want to again, but at least at the time you do, it’s nice to know that there isn’t someone else (or a string of someone’s) in the picture. I don’t know why anyone has a problem with this. Likewise, if you are into casual dating, why not be upfront about it? Not everyone is looking for “The One” everytime they put themselves in the dating pool, though sometimes they may be surprised and actually find that person through casual dating.
I don’t think you did anything wrong Collete. If this seems to be a pattern for you, it’s probably because you keep running into the casual daters (despite what they may say). Also, it seems to be true of internet dating that many people who use it want “to see what else is out there” that they might be missing. This is a form of casual dating the people engaged in it might not even realize. I hope you are trying traditional avenues of meeting men beyond eHarmony, if not, you should be.
Keep being honest about what you want with yourself and with those you date. It is absolutely the only way you will eventually meet the person who will be just as honest with you. Have patience, it will happen.
Selena
Well, it sounds like the guy wasn’t interested in a relationship then. His loss.
To answer the question: can you get a commitment without sex? Yes, but not from every guy. Nor from every girl, for that matter. And if anyone is not comfortable with having sex too early on in a relationship, then don’t do it, but be mature enough to deal with the fallout. It’s that simple. If you can do that, then you’ll do just fine.
I would like to throw this out though, just as a devil’s advocate type argument. Women are well within their rights to tell a guy they want to wait before they have sex, partly because of their own comfort level, partly as a way of ensuring his commitment. Okay fine, I get that. But suppose you were dating a guy who you knew had a lot of money, say he was a VP or a partner at a law firm. But suppose he said “I’m not spending any more than $10 on a date. I really like you, but I want to be sure that you aren’t seeing anybody else first. I could easily get very attached to you and I just want to know there’s something there before I go spending all this money on you.”
How would you feel? You would probably feel a little stunted that he put a limitation on you, and you might even resent the implication that you are being tested just to see if you’re after his money. Yet, any such guy would have a perfect right to do exactly that. Would you stay? And if you would refuse to stay with him after that, then how can you justify criticizing men who do the same when sex is involved? It’s a little hypocritical IMO.
on post #112,
There is nothing wrong with seeing someone 2.5-3.0 months, and then deciding he/she is not the right one.
@Hunter #114
Exactly! The 1-3 month span is where you should be evaluating whether the two of you are a good match…or not.
Mo, #113: I have dated many well-heeled financial guys and I prefer that we keep the spending within the realm of what is manageable for me as I always split the bill or reciprocate. For many women (like me) dating is about getting to know the guy and see if we’re compatible on many fronts — financially being one, and sexually being another. Sex, for me, has to come later because it is so much more complicated (STDs, pregnancy, emotions, history, what you like/don’t, are we exclusive/not, etc.) But it’s a little weird that you’re equating sex and money. Sounds like some posters on here with their view that dating is just a form of prostitution. If you hold that POV regarding women, guess what kind of woman you are going to meet?
Also, $10 is a little on the, uh, inexpensive side for a date whether you are paying in whole or in part, and I trust that you were employing hyperbole merely to make your point.
Cute Redhead #116:
The $10 was a low number I just threw out off the top of my head. Just enough to pay for two coffees in my corner of the world.
To clarify: I do not see dating as a form of prostitution, as you put it. I respect that many women feel used when they get pressured into having non-committal sex before they feel ready for it, and that such women would not equate that with money. I get that.
But I would suggest that if any person who held that view had ever been used the other way, for the things they were capable of buying for someone of the opposite sex, they would probably feel differently.
I just recently had an experience that I think could be really helpful to people dating. As I indicated in another post, there is so much misinterpertation and miscommunication in dating and what happened to me is a fine example of this all too common problem…
I responded to a profile of a guy that seemed interesting to me. He responded back and asked me my age and height. Instead of just telling him outright, I thought I would try to be playful and give him hints instead of telling him out right. He correctly guessed my height, but not my age so in another email, I gave him another hint along with funny banter. I didn’t hear from him. I thought we were developing a rapport so I emailed him and asked what happened — not something I typically do, but I was just so curious, I had to ask. And what he told me, blew me away. While I thought I was being playful, he thought I was being difficult and if it was that difficult to get such trivial information from me, how hard would it be to get more important information. Never in a million years would I have guessed that was why he stopped emailing. At first, I thought why in the world would he pass me up for such a trivial reason, but when I thought about it from his perspective, he was projecting into the future and seeing me as difficult. What’s the moral of this story, 1. we can NEVER, EVER know what is in a person’s mind until we ask. So, while many are assuming that the guy didn’t call her because she wouldn’t have sex without a commitment, she may very well have done something else that turned him off. 2. Sometimes, it’s the little things that turn people off. Little things that we never even notice, but they do. 3. Even though people want to make a connection, we are very very quick to find fault and eliminate them from consideration. This behavior means that many of us could pass on really good people. Just as this guy did because God knows, I am sooooooo not a difficult person!
Oh, the other thing that this experience has made me realize is that in on-line dating, we often think people just flake out. Well, I now have to wonder if that’s the case or if it is that they a person has done something to turn them off. For example, sometimes I have traded emails with men who only give one or two word responses. I conclude that communicating with them is way too much effort — and not much fun — so I move on. Those guys might view my behavior as flaky, but I have in fact a rational reason in my mind for stopping communication. So, perhaps people really aren’t as flaky as we say they are. They have just interpreted something you’ve done and decided you just aren’t worth it.
on post #118
Many, many, men are clueless when it comes to dating “code”. To include, playful banter, back and forth, between two people. Few men study relationships….
on post #119,
“Tis true, men give one word responses….many men struggle with this, yet, I lost count of how many head shrinks, I have talked to, and I lost count of how many single seminars, I have been to throughout my life time, I have come to the conclusion, that some questions, asked by some women, have one word answers………
…..LOL!…….how funny!…….hmmhh…
Hunter,
I don’t really understand what you mean in post 120.
For post 121: You could very well be right that for a man the questions women ask have one word answers. The problem is that if a woman doesn’t think they do, she’s going to view communicating with the man as difficult and move on — but leaving the man, who feels he is doing things right, to conclude that the woman stopped communicating because she is flaky. This is precisely my point — miscommunication and misinterpretation is rampant in dating.
re: # 113
“How would you feel? You would probably feel a little stunted that he put a limitation on you, and you might even resent the implication that you are being tested just to see if you’re after his money.”
Just to answer your question:
1. resent the thought that I’m being tested – yes
2. require that a guy spends more money on me that I can afford spending on him – no, I see no reason why he should. That would make me feel embarrassed rather than anything else.
to tyler on post #123
Few men know about using playful banter when first talking to a woman.
A woman HAS to protect herself from being used and disposed of afterwards. If he is not devoted to her (she must be HOT but not slutty-hot but Virtuous hot) then he will just have sex with her and dump her afterwards.
Sure can can SAY he won’t leave,
But how can she be sure that she won’t give up the goodies and then he skips town?
Fudge that, if all you get is a kiss on the THIRD date and you are mad, then maybe you need to see a prostitiute while you are dating a girl you like and could be the mother of your children, instead of trying to use her as your human blow up doll.
Lady Nemesis said: (#126)
“Sure can can SAY he won’t leave, But how can she be sure that she won’t give up the goodies and then he skips town?”
You make it sound so dramatic. How many times did men “skip town” just because they decided to end their fling with you?
I can only think of two reasons a man would leave town:
1. He’s a deadbeat who owes child support.
2. He’s being stalked by his ex.
Otherwise, it’s too much effort to pack up and move.
Similarly, I don’t need to lie to a woman in order to have a fling. I can tell her that I’m not interested in a long-term relationship. I tell her that I enjoy her company and find her extremely sexy. And a lot of the time, I can have a fling while being completely honest about my intentions.
If that woman isn’t interested in a fling, another woman will be. There is no need to lie. In my experience, most men won’t lie. If they want a fling, they will have one without being dishonest.
But I agree that everyone should protect themselves. If you’re not willing to accept the consequences of a fling, wait for some kind of commitment.
If you want to have a relationship such as marriage and it is your personal belief that it is best to wait until said marriage, then find someone who is in synch with your beliefs. And I can’t emphasize this enough, it is a PERSONAL CHOICE between the 2 people involved.
But, truthfully once you have dated for a substantial amount of time as to ACTUALLY Know said partner and understand their thinking on pre-marital sex,
I don’t feel as if Colette should do ANYTHING that SHE is NOT Totally COMFORTABLE in doing lest she COMPROMISES HERSELF, convictions, and eliminates the possibility of contracting STD’s or AIDS (possibly) Hopefully BOTH parties will be RESPONSIBLE if they are CONSIDERING HAVING SEX together!
The bottom line is NOBODY can really judge what is transpiring between 2 people EXCEPT for the 2 people involved.
I say, if it feels right between the two of you, and you are behaving in a responsible manner then the choice boils down to that sex is a perectly natural progression in a long-term, loving, relationship.
Maybe what Collette ultimately wants is to be married. But, unless both parties are committed to each other and their relationship, there are NO GURANTEES IN LIFE!!! Just like in marriage, unless BOTH people play by the same RULES and respect themselves and each other–then the point is MUTE. As there are PLENTY OF CHEATERS of either sex.
Just my humble two cents worth of advice. Collete that guy Just was’nt that into you. And MOVE ON! Do NOT call HIM to find out how he is UNLESS YOU are RETURNING a phone call from HIM. If he is the right person for you, HE will MAKE the 1st Move back towards you.
There are plenty of fish in the sea, and just stay the course, the good guys that respect and value you as a person will wait. And they are TOTALLY WORTH the WAIT, if hey share the same value systems with you.
If I were in a situation similar to Colette’s, I think I’d say something like, “John, I really like you. You’re attractive and fun to be with, and I hope we can continue getting to know each other and spending time together. While a part of me wants to be with you physically, I need to feel you are more interested in me than a roll in the hay, and that takes time. I also don’t want to share you with other women. I hope you understand. Just know that all good things come to those who wait,” with a playful, flirtatious twinkle in my eyes. If he bolts, I’ll know he wasn’t the right man for me.
I don’t think that Colette did anything wrong here. Four dates isn’t even that many dates. If Collete accurately described what happened, then it appears as though that guy only wanted sex. Since that isn’t what she wants, it is probably a good thing for her that he disappeared.
I just read Collette’s post (#99) – her approach was perfect. She didn’t want to have casual sex and because she put her foot down, she didn’t have casual sex with a guy who wasn’t interested in a serious relationship. Collette’s behavior in this case is refreshing – it would be nice if there were more women out there like her. All other things being equal, a relatively chaste woman is far more attractive that a relatively promiscuous woman.
This idea of “making progress” I think must apply much more to guys, because while you may stick with just kissing for a wihle, you are developing other parts of the story, getting to know someone, hanging out in different contexts etc. While I think that you shouldnt (nor is it natural) to postpone sex if you are really feeling it, it is important as a woman (if you are looking for respect and for something to last at least a little while) to wait to feel comfortable with a guy.
I was a litte concerned reading Evan´s blog about the “if I am still stuck in the kissing mode on date three that will be it”. I don´t buy that, that may be the case for very young guy, or someone looking for sex, but I think most guys want more, and the effort of finding someone else outweighs the minor agravation of waiting for sex. (But of course I am a woman and can only speculate!)
I’m a little surprised at some of the posts attacking Colette for stating that she is attractive. It just appears that she is questioning whether looking a certain way means that she attracts men who are only interested in sex, instead of long term relationships. What’s so sinister about that?
Tyler (#90), does she really need to “clarify why her hotness is an issue?” Glenda (#101), since when does describing oneself as attractive smack of egotism? Give me a break. I don’t see how her stating that she would generally be considered attractive in any way detracts from her as a person and/or makes it acceptable for you to snidely indicate that this somehow indicates an underlying personality problem. However, your posts make me think you are threatened by other women who are confident and rightfully expect reciprocity and respect from the persons they date.
We all use words to describe ourselves, whether the words are “funny” smart” ‘attractive” etc. and in describing what we are looking for in potential partners. Let us be realistic – we all place a value on attractiveness, and seek partners that we find attractive, whatever that means to us individually. Yes, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but I firmly believe that we have to find ourselves ‘beautiful’ before anyone else will. We should all have the confidence to say, “I am a great catch who deserves a great partner.”
So the next time someone (whether male or female) describes him/herself as “hot” maybe your reaction should be “Good for you!” instead of “What nerve!”
Dear Evan
So, according to your answer to Collette , we, women should just sleep with every guy who comes across as dateable , on 2nd or 3rd date, because it is being expected from us , and then wait and “see if we passed”? Ridiculous..
D.
Try reading that again and show me where I said that, Ainu.
Excellent comment #111. I should’ve read it, oh, 4-5 months ago, memorized it, printed it out, and posted it on my fridge, then maybe I wouldn’t have had that exact same thing happen to me
People do “come around” sometimes (I know I have), but that is such a rare occasion, I wouldn’t count on it. Better for my sanity, if a guy already said “no” to whatever, to ignore all mixed messages that might follow and continue to take his “no” at face value. More than that, if he said “yes”, but his actions say “no”, I prefer to take those actions at face value. Took me only once to learn this lesson.
BTW, I read the original post and completely agree with the “pick your poison” part. The guy probably would’ve bailed anyway, before or after sex. Much better for the OP that he bailed when he did. What can I say, dating is risky stuff
I think a Hot woman can Hold Out Sex until Commitment. If a man already approaching in such manner way, that would make woman easier to not waste her time and by telling the guy that it seems they deserve better just being a sex toy for woman. A hot guy is a man who knows how to talk and treat a woman in a fun way and not in too naughty way. This is a ridiculous way of this modern society that discussing sex should be when or until how many dates. When you have sex outside of a marriage or in a relationship, at least you know that your partner is also looking for sex as before committed to you and looking for you as a person who deserve the best. How if you will be paralyzed in the future and can not give sex anymore to your partner when you are both married to each other? Will he still stick around with you, will he cheat on you? When on the first mind what he’s talking about, at least you know what kind of man he is and what he is looking for and what he sees in you. You can not change people’s mind, only intimidating and persuade him, but that will be a hard long work, and not authentic from him. I prefer an origin mind from a man’s thought not by manipulating from the woman’s point of view.
A question…
Since many times on Evan’s site I have seen people equate holding out on sex for a woman with paying for dates for men.
How would you ladies feel if the man preferred to go dutch until you made a commitment?
Your body being precious enough for you to conserve and his generosity being precious for him to conserve.
And to those who may jump to the conclusion I am not saying either party should expect anything.
Ok I actually JUST had this conversation with a guy I was dating yesterday! we went on a few dates and I said no to sex, just that I felt I needed us to know each other better. He agreed, said he respected that and basically phoned me every few days for the next month. Never took me out again. So this week he starts saying that he needs this to be a physical relationship as well as mental and emotional, and I agreed but I said only if it’s a committed relationship and that we don’t spend any time together getting to know each other, other than him phoning me. He got fairly upset with me, said he never said anything about wanting a committed relationship, then got off the phone fairly quickly. Meanwhile for a month he was saying things like he wanted to take a vacation together this winter, would take me out in his sportscar this summer and even asked me if I wanted to be a stay at home mom and if so he would need to make more money. I was glad I never gave him sex, I think he just said all those things to placate me and put in his one month “time” before he actually got it. And if we had seen each other over the past month I definitely would have kissed and gone to different bases with him, I did find him very attractive but he never initiated that. I don’t disagree with some messing around but actual intercourse should be saved for a committed relationship.
I have been down this road before and did give it up quickly to someone and it was a great relationship for about a month, until he decided without warning that logically it did not work for him but that he was very emotionally attached. He just ended it, no warning, never heard from him again. and yes I was devasted.
Prior to my last guy, I dated a guy who actually said HE wouldn’t move that fast, HE initiated that conversation and I agreed… then he never asked me out again lol. so I mean it’s a crap shoot.
The thing I’ve learned is, I just feel better about myself if I do not give it up easily, not until I am comfortable and know that if it goes down in flames in another month I won’t be an emotional basketcase and hate the next guy who comes along for what the previous guy did. So OP if the way YOU feel is that YOU cannot proceed without knowing someone better, then please do not beat yourself up for wanting to wait.
I am totally in the same boat, I am attractive and get asked out all the time, hit on all the time, no problem getting dates with attractive eligible men. It takes some figuring out what someone is really about before you get into a relationship, everyone is on their best behaviour the first few dates, I figure if you give it long enough, he’ll put his foot in his mouth, show his true colours or turn out to be a gem.
To answer NONEXISTS question…
Going dutch until I committ… I would do that if it was with the right guy, again, would be pretty choosy and I might not put as much effort into looking hot for dates 
and I think honestly I would be pretty put off about it. I think this is just the man’s job to pay for dates. I never demand a dinner date EVER, i do not choose the restaurants, I leave it up to the man to decide where he wants to take me and I have been willing to just go for coffee with some guys and THEY generally change it to a dinner date. 
I think the only thing that going dutch would accomplish is that women would be a lot pickier about the men that they do go out with. I would be. I am not a girl who only dates men for them to buy me dinner, in fact I prefer sharing appetizers and a drink. I have been told I could have a free dinner every night of the week if I would go out with everyone who asks me out.
If I was paying half for the dates, I would be a lot choosier and take a lot longer to decide if I wanted to go out with a particular person… therefore delaying the sex even longer for a guy… so I can only assume that the reason men pay is so they may get laid faster
And I do believe a man should pay for dates… I figure us women have to deal with periods, childbirth, birth control, shaving every inch of our body, tanning, makeup, moisturizing, plucking, waxing, maintaining gorgeous hair, keeping up a great wardrobe, risking ankle injuries wearing high heels, staying thin, plus be intelligent and well read, and have a career… the very least a man can do is pick us up on time and pay for the date
Evan, From most of your work I learn to let relationships grow “organically” then I don’t see why a womanhas to make it “fun” for a guy to chase or be interested. It doesn’t seem authentic to me when someone needs to make someoneelse feel anything. And it doesn’t seem to fit the “effortless” concept. If she is not comfortable with what a man does, then she can be with someoneelse whose values are similar to hers–there are lots of guys that are willing to wait for sex. There’s no good way to have “the no commitment no sex talk”, even if it is said perfectly, it just doesn’t feel right. If a man wants what he wants, it really doesn’t matter how. A woman brings it up.
guess someone doesn’t believe in sex is for marriage only.
geez
guess we christian women will never find a guy to marry.ever
For more devout women – the ones who would abstain – there’s a gender imbalance in both faith and intensity thereof in the church among singles that doesn’t bode well for Christian women seeking a husband who can also serve as a spiritual leader of the family. Add to this the fact that many single Christian women see the church as near the center of their social activities, while many Christian men return to regular church attendance after they’ve started families, and there’s an issue that church leaders are unwilling to address head on, beyond advocating joy in singleness. That being said, religious people, male and female are more likely to get married because they highly prioritize marriage, but Christians who abstain/practice celibacy are indeed a minority, especially as the people who only had to do so from 16-24 get quickly married off.
I could have written this letter, the same thing just happened to me. Except it was 5 dates over 6 weeks, heard from him once or twice a week no long conversations on the phone or anything that was really drawing us closer, but he took me to his adult nieces bday party with family & friends there, then went back to his place. When he wanted to head for the bedroom I said no, I can’t do casual sex, I get attached too easily by being intimate so I need to wait until things are more serious. I knew he wasn’t seeing anybody else BTW (we have friends in common). I did stay over & he made breakfast for me & a couple of friends who came by. I got a Good Morning text from him for a couple more days then nothing. A mutual friend talked to him & found out he was still having daily conversations with his ex-gf who left a year ago & moved out of state. Our friend told him that he was never going to move forward if he was still attached to her. So he told the ex he was seeing me & needed to stop talking to her. When she flipped out & got upset is when he realized how wrapped up he still is with her & he’s not ready to be serious with anyone. So I really saved myself some potential heartbreak by making him realize he wasn’t moving things forward with me really. Sex only moves things forward for women, doesn’t work that way for (most) men. So if it’s important to you to know that things are serious between you, then wait for sex. A commitment doesnt come from a conversation, it comes from action. A man who is serious about you will move heaven & earth to prove he wants more with you.
Sex is very important to me as a woman and I don’t make promises that I don’t intend to keep. I would never make a committment with someone before having sex nor would I expect a man in my life to make the same commitment before sex because women can be pretty lousy in bed, too.
Sure, maybe if we’re teenagers or even in college we have this talk before hand, but not grown adults. This isn’t our first rodeo and not only do we know what we want in life, we know what’s important to us in bed, and we know about all of the things that could go wrong there, too.
The first time is often awkward at best, so maybe we’re having sex regularly by the time we have the discussion. If we are to the point of sex, I’m assuming that all is going well in dating-land. If we are sleeping together, all of the other things are still happening: dates, regular communication, affection, etc. In other words, we have sex when the time is right. After sex things are progressing, not standing still and certainly not regressing. Naturally, the talk of monogamy comes up at this point.
I feel like if you really want to know how a man feels about you, have sex with him. Do it when it’s right for you but once you do it, you’ll know. If he is weird or distant, it was all about the conquest. If he keeps coming back and treating you just as well as, if not better than, before, he’s totally into you.
when I read this, And everything else you write, I understand why I have never had succes in dating.I have been too afraid and I do not know how to make a man feel comfortable with me.I have a block.I do not know how to dare to get more.I try but I always realize what I did wrong when he already is gone.I want to be intimate, but I have problems with it.The only one who succeded was my ex husband, and that was so meant to be there was no way to scare him away then.But playing for fun and have boyfriends without planning a family life and move together n our first thre months, I really dont fix it.
A commitment doesnt come from a conversation, it comes from action. A man who is serious about you will move heaven & earth to prove he wants more with you. thanks sugar, you sum up all that we need to read, and remember.
My ex husband moved from one side of the world to the other to be with me. literally moved heaven and earth. that’s commitment.
The last guy (whom I told I would not have sex with unless he was my boyfriend) disappeared after date three citing ”other issues that needed sorting first”.
Maybe I’m idealistic maybe i’m an incurable romantic but i agree. if things are getting better, progressing, whatever, then he probably isn’t that into you. I accept that sometimes timing CAN be off, circumstances are not quite right, whatever – but that’s just another reason to wait on the sex thing. I agree that it should be part of the process (as per lovable) but most women just cant compartmentalise like that. So better to avoid the pain.
as an aside i have no issue with someone choosing to have sex without commitment. it just doesn’t work for me. and commitment simply means – im choosing to make you the priority and therefore not keeping my options open. its more about commitment to possibility or potential rather than signing a lifelong agreement. i think thats reasonable, especially if we’re going to be bumping uglies.
This is really gonna sound old fashioned or lame but my BEST relationships were where we BOTH put off sex (for as long as possible) and built a solid friendship/bond. And were monogamous.
Then the sex was incredible after that. And I’ve had both meaningful and meaningless sex. Meaningful beats meaningless every time, at least for me.
I also think you build a stronger/deeper bond by waiting. Not a crazy amount of time but something you both feel makes sense.
The bottom line is this….Some guys just wanna get laid and some want a relationship….and to get laid
Learn to spot the “wanna get laids”. After awhile it shouldn’t be too hard.
Putting off sex for a reasonable amount of time should do it. The “wanna get laids” will bail rather quickly.
The guys who want a relationship will put in a reasonable amount of time getting to know you and then will want sex.
You have to determine what a reasonable amount of time is.
I think when you choose to sleep with a guy is personal to each woman. There are the obvious practical concerns, like the safety of sleeping with someone who is possibly also having sex with other people, but I think in terms of each woman’s ability to handle the emotional implications of sex, that is personal to each woman.
I just use a simple test, by asking myself a) is it likely that he will stick around afterwards; and b) can I handle it if I never hear from him again. If I answer yes to both of those, I would have gathered that I have made the safest emotional risk that I could make.
I will say though that if you are worried about whether he will bolt after sex or if it will change his intentions in any way, you are probably on shaky ground. I think guys definitely want to sleep with girls they are into on a deeper level, but I don’t think sex will make them that way, ie. I think sex enhances a relationship, I don’t think it changes its status.
There’s some great feedback here. I find reading the comments to be just as enlightening as Evan’s response to Colette.
I’ll share a story … I met a gentleman on the website that “sings” to you. We had a great date, laughed so much my abdomen hurt for hours afterwards. Made plans for a second date. That time comes and goes with only a couple of texts 24 hours after the agreed upon time. I think, “No worries. Go in peace. Good experience.”
About a week later, I received an email from said gentleman, informing me that he’d seen my profile on another site – a site I’d informed him I was on, have been on for many years with a more adult theme. Two key factors: my profile (photos and write-up mirror the other profile he’s seen, except this one allows me to state my sexual orientation) — AND wouldn’t that mean HE has / had a profile on that same site (not something I pointed out to him)? He basically informs me that I’m the Whore of Babylon / am too experienced for him, which leads me to call him and ask, “Did you want to screw me when you thought I was only on the first website? Of course, you did.”
I polled a tremendously diverse group of my male friends. EVERY ONE of them said the same thing: It’s not fair; it’s certainly not enlightened. They want a lady in the streets and a freak in the sheets — but only in their sheets.
So at this stage of “visualizing” my heart’s desire and putting it out there for God / The Universe / The Flying Spaghetti Monster to help me manifest it … do you believe I’m going to “play” hard to get? You can bet your sweet ass I am and for everything I’m worth. And I’m worth a heff of a lot. Can I get an “Amen?” ;)
Its art of a plan my girl friend used ths method to become quite well off it works like this meet a guy who has some assets or good income lead him on give hm good sex but not too much promise him more after marraige a couple of months to year after you are married start withholding it then may be accuse him of cheating but he will think you are leading to arguments record him once you make him mad take the house so easy she now owns 4 homes and gets a great income
Sally
This is my first time posting on here, and I’ve read everyone’s comments thus far. There’s plenty of opinions and points to be considered, that’s for sure!
Colette, my only thought on all of this is and I’m quoting from your post:
“The next weekend, we had a great evening together and went to his place, but I told him I wasn’t ready to have sex.”
Colette, while I’m sure that you and this guy really liked one another, did you consider that maybe, just maybe, by going back to his place that sex was inferred?
I am not an expert in dating by any means. All I know is that it’s been my experience that chances are that a man is going to want to get naked when you invite him to your place, or in this case, you go back to his. I’m not saying every single guy is like this, but it’s something to keep in mind in the future.
If you’re not ready for sex, don’t put yourself or your date in a situation where it’s assumed or implied that it can happen.
Perhaps, in this situation, it may have been best for you to end the evening on a high note and tell him that you really had a wonderful time, you’re excited that you two have so much fun together and that you’re really happy to see him again soon. Or something to that effect. BUT…don’t go back to his place!
Just my two cents.
Thank you! That’s what I picked up on too! If you say ‘no’ to sex, and ‘yes’ to staying over – you are sending horribly mixed messages. Basically, you put the poor guy in the Friend Zone. Bam! You’re done.
I’m dating a friend that went through a divorce last year. He approached me and I said no, because it was too soon after the split. A few months later, he invited me on a date again. Because we we’ve been friends for years, it made it both more difficult and easier to jokingly say ‘get away from me – I have no control around you!’ We spent weeks dating, and not having sex, and teasing each other. Until we had sex! Now, it’s fabulous, and I don’t feel like he’s just a fwb, because that’s not what I want.
I think my situation is different because we were friends first. I was about to hire a dating coach when he started asking me out!
Hey Colette, since when did it become a pre-requisite for a girl to take her pants off to be in some sort of relationship with a guy?
NEVER and it never will be.
Dont swallow any of the crap that tells you that you have to have sex first, that is so outrageous and will really bust your boundaries.
Just be thankful that he has disappeared and shown you what he is really like … and what he is really after.
A point that needs to be addressed here is that Collette is both an intelligent and a very attractive woman – which is rare (don’t hate her because she’s beautiful & smart). What that means, is that while it’s not a problem to find men (quantity), it’s finding good men (quality) that becomes an issue. Please realize that MOST men are interested in her (at least initially). That’s a burden if you ask me. Being constantly surrounded/approached by men forces a woman like Collette to THINK about the ways in which she should make her mind and body available. This is vital in order to sift and sort and separate the noble from the rotten, otherwise she’d be having lots of casual sex with many guys and dealing with much heartache. My advice to Collette is to have rules that you follow (like you have articulated in your posts). Being honest and upfront about your needs might indeed mean you have a smaller chance of being in a relationship with a man (since you quickly scare off the jerks), but I think the chances of finding the RIGHT man remain the same. If a guy doesn’t call you back because you wanted to wait to have sex (assuming you were polite and encouraging), at the end of the day, is he really the man you want to father your children? xo
Wow. All these above average looking people who can’t get a boyfriend. And here I am…not particularly great looking and I’ve dated an awful lot in my life, haven’t slept with many and have NEVER had some guy not want to be with me.
Hold out until YOU want to have sex. Until then, play like you’re a tease and might give it to him, stroke his ego constantly-then leave him. He’ll chase you, I promise. And if he doesn’t, you got it wrong the first time and didn’t play the game right. Keep “rolling”these guys. They’re NOT that difficult. ahah Ohhh the mysteries of men.. what a…well, simple thing it is. Trust me, just be natural, tease a little, stroke his ego, don’t communicate feelings and girly things too much – and he’ll always want you. Men are remarkably easy.
Colette stated, “I have been dating a lot but have had little success…(I) have no trouble getting casual dates, but few guys seem serious. My last failed attempt has me really wondering what I’m doing wrong… I feel like it’s a good thing that I made my feelings clear — he responded by showing his true intentions were not to have a relationship but to just get laid. But how can this possibly keep happening? It’s pretty hard to think that he did such a 180 for any other reason than that I put my feelings out there. I feel fairly confident that if I had slept with him he would have made sure to see me again. …. but this scenario keeps repeating itself for me.”
While Colette gave some details regarding her failed relationship with one man, the real issue is why do none of the men want to enter into a committed relationship with her?
1. Some men are only looking to get laid.
2. Some men will not commit without a test-drive. (Lance @ 67 – I could never commit to a relationship without FIRST having sex with the girl, because that’s the only way you’ll truly know what her values are. I think it’s absurd to even consider committing without first going on the test drive. Only after a night of hot (or not) sex would I truly know that we’re good LTR partners.)
3. Some men want a wild, open-minded, and sexually liberated woman and therefore bypass women who are not getting freaky on the first or second date. (see Lance @ 72)
4. Men must “like” a woman to justify the time/expense of continuing to date someone.
Assuming all the men, or even most of them, headed for the exit because Colette told them that there will be no sex before commitment is pretty weak. Correlation does not imply causation. I think it is highly unlikely that every man Colette has gone out with has been in category 1, 2, or 3. I can’t say it any better than Tyler @ 109:
“So, how does this little tale apply to you? Perhaps your attractiveness and your desire for a committed relationship isn’t the issue. Perhaps the issue is how you make a man feel when you are with him. You want him to feel special just as you are special. You don’t want him to feel that you think he is lucky just to be with you. You don’t want a man to think wow, she’s hot, but she wants me to kiss her ass. Not many hot guys are going to sign you for that….cause they don’t have to. Instead when he thinks about you he should think wow, I feel great when I am with her. We are great together. And she is so hot. I’m the luckiest guy in the world. You in turn should feel the same way. If a man feels that way about you, you won’t have to ask him to commit. He’ll be asking you.”
Personlly, I’m sick of everything with dating/relationships revolving around sex. I’m 52 and I love sex as much as the next person. I, too, want to know if I’m compatible with someone, certainly before I get married. But there is more to a relationship than sex. If our sexual compatibility is the only thing that’s important to a guy right out the gate, I’m not interested in him. I have a mind, a heart, abilities and talents, not just a vajajay. Get to know the rest of me first. Then you get the vajayjay and the freak in the sheets. I want my body to follow my heart not the other way around. As for Collette, nothing wrong with wanting to wait for monogamy before having sex. By the same token, if the guy had a different agenda, he had every right to walk away. But he could’ve told her why instead of just disappearing.
@cbgrl7160
I agree with you but the difference for me between a lover and a friend, is well…sex. I had lots of male friends I don’t have sex with. I want a physically intimate relationship with a man who I also enjoy hanging out with. Recently I had five great dates with a man I met online. I had not been intimate with a man in over three years and even though I am well aware it is my job as the female to “hold back” and suppress my natural passionate desires, I decided to just live life a little and stop worrying about rules. Yes, we had that dreaded horrible “chemistry” on the first date. How AWFUL it was to feel excited and attracted to a man (note my thinly veiled sarcasm). Yet, as we know “chemistry” while enjoyable and wonderful, can blow up in your face.
I did not tell him how long it had been for me (I kissed a few guys in the last few years but no sex) By the fifth date we still had not had “sex” but we definitely fooled around, the intensity increased with each date starting with a nice make out session on the first date. By the end of our fifth, fabulous and fun date, we were laying together in my bed sans clothes. To me, it felt wonderful and yes, I did feel myself becoming closer to him but I never pressured him, never mentioned future anything, let him do the pursuing.
That was the last time I saw him, one month ago. He emailed me the morning after the 5th date, and two days later. He intimated/vaguely dropped a hint he was dating someone else so perhaps he chose her. I did email him twice, a week or so apart, as after five dates it seemed OK,…I did not come out and ask him out….he replied right away both times but did not pursue a date, then just left me hanging both times and the last email was 2 weeks ago. So that’s that, it appears. Disclaimer: this man was almost 6 younger than I am, although I have been told I’m very attractive and could pass for his age. I realize this could be an issue.
I am sad he decided to disappear but I refuse to punish myself and take all the blame for his disappearance. If I cannot, at 51, be a full human being with natural desires, than when can I? So should I have told him that he was special, that I had not been naked with a man in three years? No, that would put pressure on him. Did he judge me? I have no idea but it is certainly possible. Maybe he thinks I do that every guy. It is sad that women have to constantly worry about judgment in the sexual realm. The pacing of things felt fine, fun and natural. Had things gone slower, I’m not sure if they would turn out any differently but now I guess I will never find out. I am struggling but realize it was a short thing, a “fling” for him, and I will get over it….eventually. It is still disappointing to be left hanging but his actions are speaking pretty clearly.
…most men don’t know how to exit a relationship….they just fade….
Do any men who insist on sex consider that fact that women seek a commitment before having sex because they’re scared the man will bail if she gets pregnant (like many do nowadays) and she has to face the shame alone — and judgment of people everyday — of being a single mom? These same men also consider these same women bitches for pursuing child support from them for the next (I believe legally it’s) 20 yrs. These women are trying to watch out for themselves — not necessarily “rope you in”.
Maria -
If a man “insists” on sex, either before or after commitment, then the woman should not be having sex with him if his insistence is her sole motivation.
Regarding men breaking-up because a woman gets pregnant – I seriously doubt very many men are going to base a moral decision (marriage, voluntary acknowledgement of paternity, financial support, being actively engaged in the rearing of the child, etc.) based on whether the child was conceived on date X (pre-commitment) or date Y (post-commitment).
A “good man” is going to do the right thing, regardless of whether the woman was impregnated on date 3 or date 30.
I think what Evan is saying makes total sense, but it also exhausts me. Is this why my ex came to hate me? I was too direct in my communication? Rather I was supposed to communicate by teasing him and manipulating him into doing things “my way”?
Men complain women are confusing all the time. I try to be honest and clear when I speak, now I have to be a manipulative engineer to have someone like me??
Sheesh, I can try but a cheetah can’t change it’s spots in the long term. The sun is shining over singledom!
People have their reasons for not having sex yet and that’s fine. Myself, it has nothing to do with a guy being committed or not. I just choose not to for personal reasons. If the guy is truly interested and sees the woman for a future wife, then he will respect her wishes plain and simple. It’s all about respect.