Can a Smart, Strong, Successful Woman Get A Smart, Strong, Successful Man?

It was this line:

“They didn’t like a woman who was funnier than they are, who would earn more at equivalent stages of life and who didn’t want a man to protect and look after her.”

If we aren’t financially supporting you, if we aren’t protecting you, listening to you, helping to fix the plumbing, setting up the computer, picking you up at the airport… what exactly are we there for?

There’s just too many fallacies being thrown around here:

You’re too funny? And that’s a negative? My sister is certainly funnier than her husband. My mom was arguably funnier than my dad. Some people think my wife is funnier than I am (and I’m a former comedy writer).

So I’m not down with that. What I will agree with is that two people can’t be the center of attention and if you’re the center of attention and he (as an alpha male) likes to be the center of attention, his needs aren’t being met with you. Doesn’t make you wrong for being this way, but it might mean you need to choose a guy who can take a backseat to your big personality.

Your next point was about you earning more money than men.

Sure, some guys have their masculinity threatened by that. For many years, we’ve been taught that we have to be the providers – witness the number of women who expect men to pay for the first date, to pay for the wedding ring, etc. It’s not something that we can easily get over. At the same time, you making money is not the deal breaker you think it is – at least not with an enlightened man.

Listen, I’d love it if my wife made a million bucks. But in order to do that, she’d probably have to work 50-60 hours a week, go into the office on weekends, travel, and be less available for nights watching TV, weekend trips away, and regular sex. No, thanks. I’m fine with her making $50K.

Most other successful men have come to the same conclusion. If he does fine for himself, he doesn’t care what his wife makes. It’s only women who make a lot of money who care what their spouses make.

Finally, what you don’t seem to understand here, Amber, is that men want to be NEEDED. If we aren’t financially supporting you, if we aren’t protecting you, listening to you, helping to fix the plumbing, setting up the computer, picking you up at the airport… what exactly are we there for?

You wrote that you don’t “want a man to protect and look after” you.

That’s unfortunate. Because that’s what WE want to do.

As to your final question: “are there men who will want me as I am?”

Are there men who don’t want to be needed? Who value your directness over your supportiveness? Sure. Probably.

But they may not be the men that you want to date.

Despite your attraction, any strong-willed man will clash with you non-stop, so what you’re left with is a more pliant beta-male.

Those are your choices: soften up a bit and tap into your feminine side or find a softer man who embraces your directness because he doesn’t have it himself.

P.S. Most of my successful clients were the ones who chose different men instead of attempting to change their own personalities.

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91 Comments »Filed Under Understanding Men

91 Responses to “Can a Smart, Strong, Successful Woman Get A Smart, Strong, Successful Man?”

Helen 1

While I agree with Evan’s response completely, the title of this post doesn’t necessarily match the writer’s letter.

Amber didn’t say that she wanted an alpha male: a “smart, strong, successful man.” Her letter sounds as though she just wants a man, period. Yet there is something about her letter that makes me wonder if even the so-called beta-males would want her. It is that she seems very critical and and possibly bitter. The statement about the “submissive little doll of a woman” backs that up. Plenty of women are in relationships; obviously we’re not all submissive little dolls.

I think Evan’s advice about feminine behavior is spot-on as far as attracting alpha males, but to attract ANY male (any female, for that matter), she needs to work on having a more positive viewpoint and not being so quick to criticize or blame others – whether it’s men or other women.
Amy 2

You can be funny and smart without having to prove it all the time. Sounds like you’re trying too hard and protesting too much. I’m a smart, funny and caustic woman who learned that if I’m so independent, why do I have to proclaim it always. And why was I using my wit and intelligence to push people away? Chill out! If you really are all that you say you are, it will come out in time. Dating is not a competition. Change the way you present yourself cuz you sound like you have a chip on your shoulder.
AndThatsWhyYoureSingle 3

They thought about it for a good long time, and then replied that I intimidate men.

And there it is. The greatest lie ever told to single women. Evan is dead on when he says men are not intimidated by women. Men use “intimidated” because it appeals to the woman’s ego. What they really mean is a variation of “unlikeable.”

What a man looks for when meetingt a potential partner, right after a physical attraction, is whether or not she displays any level of vulnerability. That is what men consider uniquely feminine about women. That’s what men want in a partner. Someone who can be vulnerable and with whom they can be vulnerable. A woman can be direct and honest and assertive and still display a level of vulnerability. It’s not the assertive nature that turns off men. It’s the assertive nature that is devoid of vulnerability that gives men cause for concern.
Gem 4

My boyfriend just told me last night,

“I love you so much. I want to take care of you, and protect you. If you need anything, you come to Joey, and he’ll take care of it for you.”

Now, he wasn’t necessarily talking about finances here, but he does mean that as well. Generally speaking, he means if I need advice, or have a problem at home (with my car or house), or if I am upset about something, he expects to know about it, and help me.

I’ve been single for 5 years since my divorce and have taken care of all things in my life: home, money, emotions — I CAN continue to do so but there is something wonderful about a man who wants to be your hero, and a woman who is willing to let him.
Heather 5

Interesting article, but I’m genuinely confused. I dated a guy who told me I could lean on him, and I did…..and then he dumped me because “I was too needy.” So I took that to heart and made it clear to other dates that I don’t “need” a man, I’m doing just great on my own, thank you very much. And guys don’t like that either.

So which is it, Evan? I mean I can’t seem to win here. Be vulnerable, and I’ve tried that, letting guys know I am sad about my Mom’s battle with cancer, and they run. I tell guys hey, I’m strong, I’m good, I learned alot from my divorce and I’m very independent, and they run too.

I am one very, very confused lady. Just can’t seem to win for losing, and boy am I trying hard here!!!
Ann 6

To the OP: Sounds like your complement would be a truly masculine guy, “masculine” being a guy who is receptive, warm, upbeat, nurturing, supportive, sexy, and confident in his own masculinity. They do exist!!!
Ruby 7

The problem with asking a friend’s advice on something like this is that you get the friend’s personal opinion. If it’s a male friend, a woman like Amber might be intimidating to them. If it’s a female friend, she might think that women shouldn’t be funnier or earn more because that’s what she was always taught to believe. The goal is to find someone who likes a funny, high-earning, independent woman, and forget the ones who don’t. I’m sure they are out there.
Ann 8

Ruby@7: This is so true!! I’d forgotten how you have to consider the source when taking in feedback.

For awhile there I was working a serious day job in one industry and freelancing in a different industry on my off days. I wore the same clothes for both, and when shopping for work clothes tried to strike a balance between the two environments. In the first, my boss thought I dressed too provocatively (I wore dresses instead of suits). In the second, they thought I was too dowdy. Same outfit! Too funny!!!
Steve 9

AndThatsWhyYouAre Single #3 wrote
And there it is. The greatest lie ever told to single women. Evan is dead on when he says men are not intimidated by women. Men use “intimidated” because it appeals to the woman’s ego. What they really mean is a variation of “unlikeable.”

I disagree.

I think it is the other way around.

Men don’t say they are “intimidated by women” it would be tantamount to admitting they feel castrated. I do think you have it right, just backwards. Women use that phrase because it is an ego saver. Instead of having to admit that they are unlikeable they can seem men are intimidated by them which is code for “they don’t like me because I am so special”
Joe 10

There’s a difference between being needing help and being helpless. When a guy says you can lean on him, it doesn’t mean he wants you to need his help all the time; it means he’ll be there when you really need help.
That East Asian Man 11

Dear Amber. Each individual has illusions about himself or herself. I know that I do, and your statement shows that you do as well. For example, you say that you “play no games” in a relationship, but then you say that you are “very straightforward and honest,” and value and provide “directness, and honesty.” These are all aspects of the game that you play.

Playing a particular game is neither good nor bad in itself. The real issue is what kind of man wants to be in a relationship with you because of your game. Most likely, that man is a follower and not a leader; he believes that he deserves any criticism that you may bestow on him, because he has doubts about himself, and needs a strong partner to help him; he is willing to do whatever you want him to do, to obtain your approval. The reason that you are not in a relationship right now is because you are not attracted to the men that your game is attracting to you.

Your game is not who you really are. I know that the real you is a loving and wonderful woman, who deserves to be in a relationship with a loving and wonderful man. Change your game, and change your life.
Maria 12

I’m interested in the third person plural pronoun that Amber used to describe the friend that called her “intimidating”.
“I took the big step of asking a friend to be brutally dead honest with me”

“about why they thought I couldn’t find someone great.”

“They thought about it”

“pointed out”
All kind of weird, to me. I think Evan is dead on about the femininity angle. Being receptive doesn’t mean being needy or losing an edge. It just means being real and open and genuine, and vulnerable. My guess is that Amber, with her distancing third person pronouns, has a little trouble with the vulnerability and openness angle.
Michelle 13

Heather, continue your learning process so you fully understand what it is that men are looking for in general. Then you need to internalize that and grow to be that woman. Not putting on an act or going through the motions. Sounds like you’re understanding this stuff tactically, and men can figure out that you’re not being authentic.

Then go about choosing men/a man who can give you what you need. Typically one has to go through a lot of potential mates if they are choosy, just the way it is.
Michelle 14

I agree with the word ‘intimated’ and that women who are unlikeable blame the men (and everyone else) so they don’t have to own up to their own shortcomings.

I’m a strong, independent, confident, outgoing, outspoken (but kind), successful woman , that really enjoys sports and who probably makes more money than the men I have dated and the man I’m currently dating. I’ve learned to bring out, embrace and totally enjoy my femininity, which is what Evan is saying is what is important. And I do both roles authentically. If I can learn to do that, anyone can learn to do the same.
Sayanta 15

I love East Asian man’s response
AnnieC 16

The whole guy needing to be needed thing is interesting.

My partner admitted not too long ago, when I opened up about something I was vulnerable over and would need some patience and help with, that he was almost glad to hear it. He was a bit worried I didn’t need him. The conversation went on for a while(it was about some childhood wounds), and I ended up having a bit of a weep.

We’ve known each other at this point(as friends) for about 7 years, involved for about 6 months. I was a bit embarrassed the next day, because I imaged he was sitting there thinking “Oh gosh will she just be quiet???”. But I realize now I’d never given the right guy a chance, to show that he wants to hear about my concerns and vulnerablilities. The next day, when I said sorry if the conversation got a bit too much HE said “Are you kidding? I feel like that is one of the best conversations I’ve ever had with you…”. Why? Because I authentically shared myself with him.

I think men are really looking for authenticity in a woman.
BeenThruTheWars 17

I was exactly like Amber when I was dating. Exactly. Big personality? Check. Big I.Q.? Check. Big career? Check. Big paycheck? Check. But my way of doing things wasn’t working. The qualities and traits that led to my being successful in the work world were decidedly NOT leading to my being successful in the romantic realm.

So yes – I changed certain aspects of my behavior to attract (or at least not repel) men. Notice that I do not say I changed my personality. I’m not convinced anyone can successfully do that for long. But I learned how to relate to the men I was dating in a different way than I relate to men I do business with. I was able to compartmentalize – allegedly a masculine “talent” – so that in the work world, I get to be ambitious and confident and competitive and capable and independent and a respected go-getter – and when the 5 o’clock (okay, 8 o’clock) whistle sounds and it’s time to shift gears into my personal life, I put on my “feminine energy” hat and learned to give men what they crave: acknowledgement of what they bring to the table, acceptance for who they are, love/nurturing/caring. I learned to be my now-husband’s “soft place to fall” (even put it in our wedding vows). I learned how to be receptive and warm and gracious and say thank you and mean it, and sometimes ask the man to kill the (figurative) spider or lift the heavy box for me, even if I was fully capable of doing it myself, simply because I knew it gave him pleasure to do so! I learned to occasionally give him a problem to solve for me, and truly mull over what he had to say and consider taking a different approach instead of just kneejerk reacting and doing it my way like always. I learned how to give my man the gift of being the masculine provider and protector by RELAXING for a change and deciding I didn’t have to always be “on.” If you can learn to sometimes stand aside and just purr and look pretty and smile and say thank you – is that really that big of a sacrifice to make in exchange for a loving relationship with a man who is HAPPY and FULFILLED being your man? Actually, it feels pretty darn good on the receiving end after so many years of being Miss Independent. Doing everything for yourself all the time is kind of exhausting to tell you the truth; but until you STOP trying to do that, you don’t even realize how tired of it you are.

So how do you learn, as a strong career woman, to give men the qualities they’re looking for in a woman without having to undertake the futile task of “changing your personality”? It isn’t by playing games, playing a role, “becoming a submissive little doll,” or any of the other derogatory statements I hear from both women and men on this topic. It’s by learning some fundamental things in human relationships that will serve you well in ALL your interactions with other people, not just the romantic ones.

First and foremost: Learn to become a better listener. Reflect back what your partner is saying so that he feels acknowledged and HEARD. Not just that the vibrations from his voice tickled your eardrums, but that you took in what he was trying to tell you, silently processed it inside your own brain, and were then able to empathize with his point of view (whether or not you happened to agree with it). There are many great books and courses in developing better listening skills out there. One of the biggest tricks I learned is to STOP the bad habit I had of always letting my facile mind race ahead and work on my next clever rejoinder to what was being said so I could bask in the pride I had of being so witty. It’s not about me! It’s about being one participant in a two-person conversation. It’s about really taking in what the other person is saying and thoughtfully trying to understand where they’re coming from. This will be a valuable skill if you are the CEO of the company or the lowliest person in the mail room. You know those charismatic people who hold you in their thrall because whenever you speak to them, they make you feel like you’re the only person in the room – make you feel important – make you feel like you’re the smartest, most vibrant and interesting person they’ve spoken to all day? Know what their secret is? They are skilled listeners and know how to let the other person shine in the conversation. So the first skill to learn is the self-control and self-editing function to know when to shut your own mouth and stop trying to impress and dazzle the other human being in front of them, and let THEM take center stage in your eyes. This is not the same as “fawning over” someone. It requires you to keep your mouth shut, not be all gushing and insincere. When a man feels listened to on a date, I guarantee he’ll be back for more.

I could give Amber a long list of other skills to develop her feminine side; but if she can spend some time on this first, most central new behavior, I guarantee she’ll start seeing positive results in her romantic (and other) encounters with men AND women.
Helen 18

BeenThruTheWars, I predict that Amber among other women will find what you have to say hard to swallow, even if it is true. So let me add to your comments by saying that MEN who practice these skills (listening, making the other person feel intelligent) succeed with others as well.

My boss (a man) is one example of this. He puts on a show of being a clueless goofball, and constantly makes us feel like the smart ones, so of course we’re more willing to work hard for his sake. But the truth is that he is one of the smartest people I have ever met – probably smarter than any of us.

Amber: What it boils down to, for both men and women, is that you succeed in relationships if you make the other person feel important. Don’t play a game of one-upmanship and try to impress the other party with how witty and brilliant you are. Do you know – most people don’t care if another person is witty or brilliant! For brief moments, it’s nice, but if you have to live with someone who keeps putting on that show, it’s exhausting. Instead, relax, and appreciate what the other person has to offer. Works in business, works in love.
Steve 19

Most of my successful clients were the ones who chose different men instead of attempting to change their own personalities.

IMO, the take home quote of Evan’s response.
Diana 20

Great post, #11, That East Asian Man!
Jane 21

I’ve been lurking for a while now (of both the threads and the responses), but this one compelled me to respond, because I was debating a similar question myself. I understand that after reading all these letters, someone can pick up on little hints or phrases about the intent of the author. But when I read the OP’s letter, I came away with a very different read. I thought it basically boiled down to this: she knows she is masculine energy, and knowing that, can she find love? Or does she have to change?

As I read Evan’s response, and the others that followed, I really heard a mixed answer: no, don’t change your personality – but you are too unfeminine, so change these following things [...]. I agree it is hard to change your personality, but whether you’re yin or yang is a dimension of that – so you can be potentially asking them to change core traits. I even get why this happens. The majority of women, from what I’ve read and witnessed, do seem to work with both energies not out of a desire, but more a default need. And many women, I’d even say the vast majority of them, do want help in expressing their feminine side, or moving in that energy in any given relationship. But not all women do. Some women don’t want to compartmentalize their yang to their job alone – they want it to be a part of their being.

People appeared taken aback by the “submissive little doll” comment, but when I read the line from BeenThruTheWars – “If you can learn to sometimes stand aside and just purr and look pretty and smile and say thank you…” – I didn’t see any difference between the two. Both lines speak towards looking visually pleasing, and feigning inability for the sake of it (as opposed to genuine inability, ie. “Hey hon, can you help me lift the tv to the other room?”), not to mention other things more subtly implied, like voice changes. I have seen these allowances, and more, first hand. And not just from the uber feminine women. I have seen women, who were entirely consistent in their speech in all other areas, suddenly lift their pitch to an almost sing-song when in the presence of the men they were interested in. Or a woman who, once completely deciding what to eat, completely became undecided once her partner returned from the bathroom, and ended up ordering what he suggested – something entirely different. If that is what makes the individual couple happy, then that is great for them.

But not all women want to follow that script. If she says she’s funny, I don’t think she means she wants to write jokes for the Oscars. But I hear plenty of men in my lifetime make this assertion – men who were anything but funny, lol. Usually meant they just liked the idea of being funny, and telling jokes, and having people laugh at them. And they eventually found women who listen with rapt attention, and thought their jokes were hilarious! Maybe she just wants a man like that. Maybe she wants him to be the soft place for her to land . Or to be the yes man – not in the derogatory way we can imagine. But in Evan’s book, he talks about being open, and simply saying yes when guys suggest things on or for dates. She may want something similar.

But I guess the answer is no, no, and no. And I say that not because it is explicitly said, but it is in so many words. The answers I was most curious about only came at the end of the response, and briefly at that:

”Those are your choices: soften up a bit and tap into your feminine side or find a softer man who embraces your directness because he doesn’t have it himself. P.S. Most of my successful clients were the ones who chose different men instead of attempting to change their own personalities.”

Where was the assertion that what she desired was ok? Certainly Evan doesn’t have to, but he, in the past, has taken great pains to affirm women, even as he heavily critiqued some of their choices. Also, just like women can be direct, but appreciate it more from their partner, can’t a guy feel the same way?

But more so than that, I was looking for the more practical guide to how the OP could find what she desired. Where do you find these men? What do they look like exactly? How can you differentiate a genuinely beta guy from one who behaves that way, but is really passive-aggressive, and actually doesn’t appreciate a woman’s more aggressive energy? And how do you attract them, because I’d have to assume that attracting a feminine predominate (or equal parts each) man is going to be at least somewhat, if not very, different from attracting a masculine energy man.
Don’t get me wrong. I am not saying the OP is perfect – even she says she has tons of flaws, and says she’s willing to change certain things. But if this were counsel to a man, a very masculine energy man, say, who was having troubling finding someone to date and be with, certainly the answer wouldn’t be “Act more feminine.”

Or…would it? No one, not even the most extreme masculine man is 100% that. We are all some balance. So would he be told to soften some of his traits?

I know this is probably a somewhat rarefied group (masculine women, who are not effecting that stance, that just genuinely would love and cherish a more feminine energy man), but it can’t be smaller than female CEO population. Is there anything more to say to them (Evan alludes to it in his post script, but w/o any details)?

Thank you!

@ Ruby – “The goal is to find someone who likes a funny, high-earning, independent woman, and forget the ones who don’t. I’m sure they are out there.”

I think that was the most positive affirmation I read on the thread, so far, that these guys do exist; thanks for that!

@BeenThruTheWars – I did quote you, but I also wanted to say thanks. I would probably be at least somewhat in the category of what Helen said of people who may not embrace some of your position. To use the piece I quoted, at the end you asked if that was so hard to do. For me, it would be, because it’s so foreign to who I am at my core. But I liked much of what you said, and though you did bracket it in terms of masculine/feminine energy, some of the things you suggested are just plain great for humans period, like working hard to become a great listener, and being appreciative of the generosity of other people; so thanks for sharing your personal take on things.
Joe 22

@ Maria #12: I guarantee the LW used “a” and “they” in an effort to gender-neutralize the friend who was asked for advice. It’s awkward to say “he or she” every time a “they” will do.
BeenThruTheWars 23

@Helen 18, I’m not sure what it is about “try to become a better listener and work on being more gracious and receptive” that would be hard for women to swallow if they genuinely want to be in a loving relationship with a masculine man. Unless it’s just such fundamental advice, you think they might dismiss it. (That, I could believe.) I’m just explaining what worked for me, as a person who once walked in Amber’s high heels, and what (as a dating coach) I have seen work for many other women once they try behaving a bit differently.

@Steve 19, agreed – it’s almost impossible to change one’s basic personality. And I agree with you and Evan that it’s essential to find a partner with whom you’re a good fit. My husband is extremely laid back, which works for Type A me. However, I still make sure to “let him be the guy” and make a conscious effort to see to it that he feels acknowledged and accepted and appreciated and listened to in our relationship. It costs me nothing to behave in this way (i.e., less self-centered) and has brought me many tangible and intangible rewards.
Gem 24

I agree wholeheartedly with BeenThruTheWars!
Evan Marc Katz 25

@Jane – A thoughtful response deserves a thoughtful response:

Re: My mixed answer. Yes, I gave a mixed answer, because there are essentially two choices a person can make: change yourself or change the kind of partner you’re seeking. The one thing you can’t do is change an individual man, which is generally what most women I advise are attempting to do.

I did make an assumption in the OP’s email – one that’s based on a considerable amount of coaching experience. I assumed that she was looking for a man who was more man than she was. Taller. Smarter. Funnier. Richer. Just as opinionated and educated and strong.
She didn’t say this, but I haven’t found many clients looking for the sweet, supportive, easygoing high school teacher, for example. If I’m wrong in my assumption, I apologize, but my advice was geared towards how you attract the Alpha Male. If the OP is looking for a yes man to laugh at her jokes, I’m sure she can find one…but in my estimation, she won’t respect him. At least that’s what I hear from women who complain about nice guys and need a man who’s more of a challenge.

As for your question about the practical guide to finding the right men… Huh? “Where do you find them?” Everywhere. “What do they look like?” Everybody. “How do you attract them?” Be yourself. The beta guy is the only person who’ll put up with you in the long run because his life is improved when he doesn’t have to make decisions. The alpha male wants to make decisions and doesn’t like you telling him what to do.

Naturally, I’m speaking in sweeping generalizations, because that’s necessary when giving advice. No one is pure alpha or beta, etc. But if the OP is anything like my smart, strong, successful clients, her two clear options are to soften up to make masculine men feel good around her, or keep being herself and appreciate it when an easygoing beta guy has her back for life… (which, by the way, is exactly what alpha males do with their wives).

Just don’t forget, as BeenThruTheWars eloquently pointed out, most men don’t feel like they have a role if you’re so independent. It’s not intimidation. It’s just a feeling. We feel best when we’re NEEDED. And, for the most independent and direct women out there, the truth is, they DON’T need a man. This is where a lot of things fall apart.

Women tend to fall for men who are emotionally unavailable and don’t need them. Men tend to fall for women who are available and vulnerable. Thus, the greatest gifts you can give a man is your time and support. This is my observation, not my judgment. Try it, you’ll see.
Carrie 26

Wow…some great insight and advice. I feel for Amber, really I do. I often have felt the same way. I have the same independent spirit very open and friendly to everyone. I have no problem with needing help with anything. The word that grabbed me was “vulnerability”. I know what being vulnerable means but what are the initial signals/traits that show the “right kind of vulnerability” when you are in a crowd and wanting to attract someone. What does this look like? What happens? Besides smiling and having an open energy. In many many situations I have met men and had great conversation etc…but they are more than willing to walk away. They ultimately seem confused. If we meet again they are friendly. When people finally get to know me…they have great stuff to say about me…and everyone wonders why I can’t find a good man. Hmmmm.
Anyone have an answer to the what actually is the vulnerability I am to be displaying? This also would probably help Amber as well! Wishing you well Amber, don’t give up….keep being a wonderful lady…give some of these suggestions a try…all trial and error. Big Hug!
Ann 27

Hang out with different people, that’s my unsolicited advice to the OP, if the crowd you’re with isn’t jibing with the way you are naturally and the men are all put off by a woman who knows her own mind. They don’t know what they’re missing!

I don’t know what this feminine/masculine energy stuff is about (makes no sense to me and isn’t in keeping with my personal experience), so I like Helen’s comment that all people need to have certain skills in relationship, e.g., being able to listen, being sensitive, empathic, etc. That way it’s not a one-way street where we’re always telling women that it’s “feminine” to allow yourself to be plowed over, which is how a lot of folks will understand that advice about being “receptive.” (I always wonder, “receptive to what?” Like if I’m really a woman I’ll just let in all this crap and sort through it looking for the good stuff. Maybe he should do some work here and present only the good stuff. “Receptivity” would be very easy in that case!)

I also like the part about not hitting people over the head with your smarts or your accomplishments or whatever. One upsmanship or self-aggrandisement is just rude, no matter what your gender. ‘Course, no indication that that’s what our OP is doing. She doesn’t seem like that in her post.

She seems OK to me, actually. Not sure she has a problem, other than she hasn’t met someone she jibes with yet.
devymetal 28

As I was reading Evan’s response, something struck me:

Perhaps women who express too much masculine energy and find it difficult (for whatever reason) to explore their feminine energy may actually have better luck simply reframing the experience as getting in touch with their inner spirit of youth.

I think being intractable and proud of it (some people would interpret this positively, as being “strong-willed”, although I would not) is totally at odds with the traits fun, still-idealistic, youthful women possess– at any age. Being curious, adventurous, and fluid shows a potential husband he can count on the woman in his life to be both adaptive and graceful under pressure.

I live in the financial district of NYC, and, it sometimes shocks me to see businesswomen no older than me (30) who look hardened, stern and 10-15 older. Some of these women may appear feminine, but they don’t look possess youthful energy, and that seems to be just as critical to the most eligible men around here.
Angie 29

Hey Amber,

I can agree that Evan’s statement “men want to be needed”. The guy I am currently dating says he really likes when I ask small favors of him (he set up my TV and internet in my new apartment). He also just told me one of his good friends was talking about how silly his wife is b/c she keeps asking him how to flip back and forth between the cable and the dvd player and all his friends asked “Are you sure she isn’t just doing that to make you feel special?” (answer: the friend didn’t know if she was faking or not, but he found her inability to do so endearing).

I think there are a few areas where men naturally “excel”.. electronics, sports knowledge, car maintenance (again, I just asked how to put air in my tires. It’s dumb, but men genuinely like when you go to them for advice). It won’t make you look stupid or incapable just b/c you ask a question. If you are going to buy something or install something or fix something, simply asking their opinion might increase the way they feel about you without changing you one bit.

I think this goes across the board. I was totally happy being single, but there were people in general who I would ask questions from, even if it was just about tax law or baseball rules or whatever. It doesn’t mean I can’t take care of myself. It just means that I value that other people sometimes know more about certain things than I know myself.
Ruby 30

Jane #21

<<@ Ruby – “The goal is to find someone who likes a funny, high-earning, independent woman, and forget the ones who don’t. I’m sure they are out there.”
I think that was the most positive affirmation I read on the thread, so far, that these guys do exist; thanks for that! >>

Amber wrote, “Hey Evan, I’m having trouble –as I guess most of the people on this blog are– with finding a partner. I took the big step of asking a friend to be brutally dead honest with me about why they thought I couldn’t find someone great. No wishy-washy answers about giving it time, or not meeting the right kind of people, just absolute dead straight feedback.”

This is another aspect of Amber’s question that I take issue with. Actually, I do believe that timing can play a major role in finding a partner. This isn’t to say that we don’t all have areas that we could improve, and that if someone tends to make the same mistakes over and over again with the opposite sex, then they may need to reevaluate what they are doing. But I think that, in most cases, there’s nothing particularly more “wrong” with anyone who is single, any more than there is with someone who is coupled, other than that they haven’t yet met the right person.

Sometimes, when you are a smart, high-achieving sort of person, as it sounds like Amber is, it’s difficult to accept the fact that, while you can be very proactive about many things in your life, including looking for a partner, that doesn’t necessarily mean that the right partner will emerge exactly when you would like him to. In other words, even with all the best intentions, you may have to wait a while. If you’re the sort of person who is used to working hard and getting results, that fact may be hard to take.

Perhaps it’s almost easier to pick at your own flaws, thinking that if only there is something about yourself you can change, then you can find the magical “right” person. Well maybe, but maybe not. And if any of us asked a friend to be brutally honest with us, couldn’t any friend manage to find something “wrong” with us?
Laine 31

I love That East Asian man’s response too.
Trenia 32

Amber and Evan brings up something very interesting, a woman’s femininity and the way men need to feel needed. The problem is, as women and times change, what women see as needs are changing, but men aren’t changing what they are offering us based on how we’re evolving. We’re still talking about how men need to fix things around the house to feel needed, when women know they can just pay the neighbor’s brother to do what needs to be done for $25. But because women tend to feel more compelled to be coupled up than men do (generally speaking), we are the ones who feel like we have to change to get the man at all costs. But herein lies the problem between women and men in the 21st century, and unfortunately there will be casualties until things re-calibrate. Casualties meaning, unfortunately, a lot of women probably will not make it down the aisle, I suspect a good portion of my generation (I’m 32) will remain single, but the generation of women after me will fair much better in love and relationships.
What’s happening with men these days is similar to what’s happened to the auto industry in Detroit, they wanted to keep doing things in the same way they’ve always done it, while everywhere else on the planet is upgrading technology and changing the way they do business. As I said, there will probably be many casualties, but I suspect the next generation is already changing things.
Ann 33

Ruby@30: LOVE your response, and I agree! Maybe something better than being married right now is in the offing for her, or maybe she’ll have a better marriage if she waits. There isn’t necessarily anything wrong because she isn’t married right now. She might do well to examine why she thinks she should be or why she wants to be.

Trenia@32: Brilliant. I could never respect a man who NEEDS me to play dumb so that he can feel NEEDED. How ridiculous. I’m good at a lot of things, some that are considered traditionally masculine things. And I suck at some things that are considered traditionally feminine. My BF is the same way, but vice versa. Together we’re a hodgepodge of talents and abilities. But it’s not like we’re two dumbheads who can’t figure out between us how to get things done. It astounds me when I meet these women who don’t know how to manage their finances or men who can’t cook or wash a dish because they don’t think it’s part of the genetic coding for their gender.

But we’re together because we want to be, not because we need to be. It’s trickier to do relationship this way, though, because when you encounter conflict you actually don’t want to be with the other person, and there isn’t any need binding you. So we’re always reassessing the relationship and breaking up is always a viable option. We’ll never get divorced, though, so that’s a good thing!!
Helen 34

All these comments about men needing to be needed are very interesting.

Trenia 32 is onto something. The more society evolves, the less women truly “need” men for anything. I say this not as anything against men, whom I love; but as an observation of society. John Gray (Mars & Venus) and others agree, but claim that women still need men for affection, affirmation, etc. But is it really true? It seems like stretching the truth just to conform to an old-fashioned notion. After all, can’t single women get affection and affirmation from friends, family members, casual relationships, and pets?

This is not to say that I don’t think women should get into LTRs. They are incredibly rewarding. But can’t we dispense with this whole notion of “needing” men? I can’t believe it has a real biological basis. Males of other species don’t depend upon females to “need” them for anything. Female lions do all the hunting AND the cub-rearing; male lions do virtually nothing except breed, yawn, and lick their chops. Female monkeys are capable of getting enough food for themselves and rearing youngsters on their own.

So what is the basis for all this “need to be needed” among humans? Maybe it is all part of the game that many have alluded to here, which understandably is a distasteful game for many self-sufficient women.
Evan Marc Katz 35

Helen: maybe in your mind, you can get the same things from friends, family members, casual relationships and pets. But I sure can’t. None of them will make love with me. None of them will wake up by my side. None of them will be in the trenches with me raising kids. None of them will be living in my house, building memories every single day. You do a disservice to married couples – and the beautifully codependent lives they build – by suggesting that any other relationship is a reasonable substitute.

And that, by the way, is why people keep coming back for more. The reason that people strive for love. The reason that people tie the knot. Despite love’s potential to hurt and disappoint, we want MORE than the lick of a dog or the laugh of a friend.

Comparing humans to lions denies what makes us human. Lions don’t have a fraction of the capacity of humans to love. Perhaps that’s why male lions aren’t needed.

You don’t need to make any other biological comparisons. You just have to look at all the people who fall in love and try to make it work in the world to determine whether we need to be needed.

Seems to me the answer’s yes, no matter how much you’d like to think the answer’s no.
Ann 36

EMK@35: I think you mean “interdependent,” not “codependent,” which isn’t considered a healthy way of relating.

Long as we’re on the topic of codependency, though, if you’re going to say that there are positive things that you can only get in a marriage, you must also admit that there is a whole lot of crappy, destructive stuff that you can only get in a marriage, too. Like divorce, which has got to be the crappiest relationship experience on the planet.

I’m with Helen–I don’t think that the things you list are the exclusive benefits of marriage. I get them in other ways and I’m perfectly happy getting them this way. I’m not the only one. You’re put together the way you’re put together; others are put together the way they’re put together. Enough room for everyone!!! Equal respect all around!
Helen 37

Evan, I don’t see how my remark does disservice to married couples – that is too extreme a statement. Married folks (including myself) wouldn’t be affected at all by such a comment. We’re in marriages because we want to be in them. We’re not going to start questioning our marriages just because I suggest that affection and affirmation can be had by other relationships.

That doesn’t mean that I know that my life is much better than the life of an unmarried person, or that a single person cannot be fulfilled through other relationships.

In any case, this is a tangent. The point I’d been trying to make was about the notion of needing to be needed, and whether we could dispense with this notion altogether and just admit it’s a WANT in today’s society, not a NEED.
Evan Marc Katz 38

Actually, co-dependent is an apt description, but we can play with semantics if you like.

Saying that you only get “divorce” out of marriage is like saying you can only get “fired” if you get a job. So the answer is simply not to work so you can never get fired? Huh?

You get married because the depth of your relationship with one person transcends all the other relationships. The fact that you’re happy being single doesn’t take away from that.

And the fact that you and Helen can create some false equivalence between your relationship between you and your dog or your sister doesn’t mean that living with, building a life with, and sleeping with one person for 40 years isn’t a significantly different (and objectively deeper) experience. I respect your right to be single, but honestly, a friendship and a marriage are apples and oranges.
Evan Marc Katz 39

@Helen: Affection and affirmation CAN be had by other relationships. Just not with the same depth, consistency and intensity as a marriage, at the very least because you’re not living and sleeping with your girl friend.

I didn’t say my life is “better” than an unmarried person, especially if that person DOESN’T want to be married. I did say that the depth of my relationship with with my wife and the value of what we’ve built together – a home, a family – might be more meaningful. There are plenty of unhappily married couples, but a strong marriage, I believe, transcends mere friendship…and that’s why most people pursue it.

Finally, we can quibble about the semantics once again, but it doesn’t change the message. Do you NEED a man the way you NEED air? No. But you’re bright enough to understand the point. When women revel in their independence and their lack of need for a man, it’s not a turn on for a man – even if he appreciates a woman who is exceptionally bright and interesting. Not sure if we disagree on anything.
Ann 40

Helen@37: Agree 100%!!!

EMK@38: I really do not think you want to suggest that people get into codependent relationships, given what that word means in common parlance.

EMK@39: How long have you been married? And Helen, how long have you been married?

Again, EMK. I would suggest that you are speaking about your own experience. Maybe you need a marriage to experience depth, consistency, and intensity in a relationship with a woman. I would not say that this is a universal experience. And just because you didn’t have that kind of experience when you were single doesn’t mean that other people don’t.
Angie 41

To some of the above posters: I don’t really think Evan said at any point play dumb or play down your best traits to get a man. I read through this thread a few times.

Just don’t overemphasize that you don’t need anybody or anyone and devalue your partner if you expect to keep a partner. If you genuinely appreciate someone, you will both let them demonstrate their love for you and you will respond with gratitude. This should be with all relationships, but of course your primary romantic relationship should be first and foremost.

You shouldn’t date someone who thinks you are totally incapable of doing anything yourself because you are some poor little woman or is too insecure to deal with the fact that you make good money (I have several friends who make more money than their boyfriends / husbands, but these friends – especially the married ones – treat their combined salaries as “our” money, not mine vs. his). I do know that some men with inferiority complexes will insult and degrade hard-working women, but those aren’t worth the OP’s time.

You wouldn’t have ANY good relationships, friendships of otherwise, if you didn’t have some ability to show your appreciation. Do you always ask one friend for fashion advice b/c she has great taste? Is there a friend you love to go out with b/c she’s loads of fun? Maybe you should break down and analyze the good relationships you’ve forged, figure out WHY they are so good, and then go from there.
Ann 42

EMK@38: One other thought on this:

Saying that you only get “divorce” out of marriage is like saying you can only get “fired” if you get a job. So the answer is simply not to work so you can never get fired? Huh?

This goes back to the discussion of want v need. Everyone needs to work; work is basic to survival. If you are a stay-at-home mom, you are working for your keep. If you are a lawyer, you are working for your keep. If you are foraging in the forest, you are working for your keep. Only a rare few in this world are in a position where they do not have to work. So everyone has a “job” so to speak. “Getting fired”–or losing what you rely on to survive–is a risk that everyone faces.

Getting married is a want. It is not a need. In developed countries, at least, no one has to get married. We all have a choice whether to take on the risk of divorce or not. A lot of people have decided that whatever benefit they might get from marriage, it is not worth the risk of the crappiness of a divorce.

So I don’t think the analogy works.
Helen 43

Evan 39: “When women revel in their independence and their lack of need for a man, it’s not a turn on for a man.”

Evan, we do indeed agree on the awesome aspects of marriage and political outlook (as evidenced by some of your comments). But where we appear to disagree – and please correct me if I’m wrong - is our perceptions of women’s attitudes. I quoted you above to assure you: by and large, women don’t revel in our independence or lack of need for a man! The vast majority of women aren’t even thinking that way. If we are independent, it’s not because we revel in it, or because we’re trying to defy men. It’s because we learned that we need to take responsibility for ourselves as adults to eat, sleep, and have the basic creature comforts. And if we aren’t lucky enough to be married right away to a man who can provide all this, of course we need to learn how to do it ourselves.

I fail to see this in any way as being “anti-men.” Or having anything to do with men, period. It’s just common sense in order to survive in the world. Guys, if we woman are independent, it’s NOT about you. It doesn’t mean we hate you (most of us love you and want you). It doesn’t even mean we revel in it. I really wish, for the sake of my brilliant single girlfriends who want a LTR, that men would stop taking their independence personally. Just because a woman can survive on her own doesn’t mean she doesn’t love a special guy’s company.

Ann 40: Thanks! To answer your question, I’ve been married 13 years.
Joe 44

@ Trenia #32:

Would you rather maintain your facade of independence and pay your neighbor’s brother $25 to do something, or just ask your boyfriend to do something he’d be happy to do for you for free?
Heather 45

@Joe #10

I agree but I was NOT leaning on the guy all the time. I try very hard not to do that to people. I am far from helpless. I just resent being told one thing, and then being damned for believing it. I believe in saying what you mean, and meaning what you say.

I just don’t know what to believe about you guys anymore, LOL.
Ann 46

Here’s a thought: If your life is awesome, your life is awesome. Marital status has nothing to do with it. That way, if your marital status changes, you still get to have an awesome life.

And kudos to Helen@43 on telling it like it is! What does any woman’s choices regarding work, marriage, lifestyle, or even hairdo have to do with guys? All people–which includes women, last time I checked–make choices based on what will make them happy. Whether these choices turn men on or not is really not the women’s problem. Maybe guys should become less codependent and work on thir own happiness rather than trying to get women to change.
Evan Marc Katz 47

Ah, Ann, you’ve just revealed your blind spot.

“What does any woman’s choices regarding work, marriage, lifestyle have to do with guys?”

Everything if you want to be in a relationship with a guy. If you don’t, then I’m not sure why you’d be on this blog.

If you work 60 hours a week, your guy doesn’t get his needs met. If you’re training for a triathlon, he doesn’t get his needs met. If you’re high-maintenance and critical, he doesn’t get his needs met.

And if it’s more important to you to be the CEO, run marathons, and “be right”, then you can be PERFECTLY happy.

Really. No one’s trying to change you.

You just won’t find many men who will find you their ideal partner.
Saint Stephen 48

If you aren’t looking for a BF/LTR you will find plenty of men who are comfortable with not being needed for anything except for the occasional sex call.

If you don’t need a man for anything then what do you ant him for? Sex? you can get that without the hassle of commitment. Share conversations? you can do that with your pals. Protection? You can hire a bodyguard or purchase a weapon for self defense.

With smart strong successful women- i think their want for a man emanates from wanting to prove to their peers that they can get everything others have. Inwardly they may really don’t want a man, but at the same time are scared and avoiding the stigma associated with being single.
Sayanta 49

Evan-

Most men ANd women work 60 hours a week nowadays. You have to pay the bills
Evan Marc Katz 50

Once again, Sayanta, I didn’t say that MEN who work 60 hours a week are a prize. Anyone who has little time to give to the relationship is a liability. But since this site is for women, I’m talking about women who put work before love.
Tara 51

@St Stephen 48
How can you generalize like that?

You make it sound as if all strong, smart successful women are very shallow.
I’m sure some of them fall into the description you give, but
maybe more likely, many of them probably became overly self-sufficient, but feel out of balance, and may have trouble getting into their heads and into their hearts, and are not quite in touch with their intuition and what it is they really want, in all areas of their lives.
Gem 52

Ann #42

Getting married is a want. It is not a need. In developed countries, at least, no one has to get married. We all have a choice whether to take on the risk of divorce or not. A lot of people have decided that whatever benefit they might get from marriage, it is not worth the risk of the crappiness of a divorce.

Evan never said that marriage is a need. He said that men like and are attracted to, in addition to other things, the feeling of being needed in a relationship. Not unlike women. I know I appreciate the feeling that my man comes to me with certain needs that he feels he can’t get met anywhere else. NO, not just sex. Emotional, psychological, spiritual things that he trusts only ME with because our relationship is that deep. Because throughout the course of time, the love relationship deepens and transcends, as Evan pointed out, beyond what a platonic friendship or family member could.

Some of the comments on this thread from women show their utter abhorrence at the thought of ever needing a man for ANYTHING as if it represents a weakness that they’d rather slit their wrist than admit. Sheesh!

For women who don’t care if they are in a relationship or not, good news, Evan isn’t talking to you. He’s happy you’re happy getting everything you want out of life from your career/friends/family/dog/hobbies.

But the OP isn’t happy! She wants a man and she’s the one who said, “I am not feminine in the least.”

Well, what do you expect Evan to say when she asks if she stands a chance at love? The truth. Yes, there are men who will want her, but their probably gonna be more subserviant to her because she’s the strong one. There is usually a polarity in relationships. Rarely do two alphas live happily ever after. One is at least MORE alpha. So she can be with
one of those men or nurture/find her more feminine side in order to cast a wider net.

Sometimes women just don’t know how to turn off “work-mode” when they come home and deal with men. But if they learned to let it go a little they would find that it doesn’t compromise their strength or belittle them at all. In fact they could have it all. They could reach their goals and still have the passion at home.

Patty Stanger (the millionaire matchmaker) just said that she’s hell-on-wheels at work, but with men she is docile. Hard to imagine, huh? AND WHY?? Because she wants to feed passion and romance to her own benefit. She wants the man to feel like the man, and she wants to feel like the woman. We all have different sides to us. She shows her man her most soft side.

I don’t think that means she dumbs down and pretends to be inept, I think she means she allows her man to feel like a strong, decisive, protecting, providing, NEED-meeting man he wants/needs to feel like.

How is this a bad thing?
Helen 53

Gem, what you write does not contradict what you quote Ann as saying. She said want, not need. Your second to last paragraph is full of what a woman “wants” – you mention it 3 times. And again, you say that the OP “wants” a relationship. None of this contradicts what Ann or others have said before. As for your statement about women not caring if they’re in a relationship: Ann never said she didn’t want a relationship. She is IN one. We wouldn’t be in them if we didn’t want them.

“How is this a bad thing?”

It’s not a bad thing if you consciously make it part of your game and are aware of the potential consequences. It IS a bad thing if you end up giving away too much credit or power to men who don’t deserve it, or to bad men. I’m definitely not saying all men are bad. But a small proportion are. It is also a bad thing if, even if you’re “needing” a good man, the good man goes away – dies, divorces – and you’re left not knowing how to do something like finances or repairing the home because you always relied on him to do it.

Women should be able to do things in life. Simplistic statement, but true.
Gem 54

Helen #53
Gem, what you write does not condradict what you quote Ann as saying. She said want, not need.

I know; the point about “need” is that men appreciate the feeling of being needed by their girlfriend/wife/family. Whether or not someone chooses to opt out of relationships/marriage to avoid divorce/pain doesn’t negate the fact that there are many gifts of experience that come from a love relationship they are missing out on, and as Evan believes and I agree, can’t really be substituted by other relationships.

Especially if in one’s friendship, they never want to NEED anything from that friend or be vunerable because, OMG, they might be hurt. Put up barriers to how vulnerable one’s willing to be and the relationship is pretty superficial. If a super-woman refuses to NEED a man for anything so she doesn’t ever depend on someone else for ANYTHING and therfore possibly suffer the potential consequences you mention, why would she allow her friendships to ever get past bird-bath depth either???

If the vibe from said super-woman is I don’t need men, they’re kind of irrelevant in my life because I can do everything for myself, I am woman hear me roar, but hey, I still want a man, why is it a suprise if the average man is not turned on by that.

Most men (and women) who seek love are looking for something deeper. And that includes feeling needed, being vulnerable, depending on each other, etc….. All that scary stuff, that yes, comes with risk — like most worthwhile things in life.
Helen 55

Gem, I think we’re talking past each other, because the latest points you make do not seem relevant to my earlier post. That’s okay; it doesn’t matter.

Here is an example of where I think it is the men who should change their attitudes in the long run. Evan has written before that he advises women to change because: 1) they’re the ones asking him for advice, and 2) you can’t change others; you can only change yourself. So very true, and commonsensical. But in this case we’re discussing, I think it is incumbent on Western men in the future to change their need to be needed if they want to be in an LTRs. If they don’t want LTRs, then fine - no need to change.

Why do I say this? Because women will only become more independent as time goes on. Already women substantially outrank men in college graduation rates, and increasing proportions of women are earning advanced degrees. Meanwhile, the average age of marriage continues to increase. That means that even if some women don’t want to, they MUST learn all the skills to live independently. But fewer women will fall into this category (not wanting to live independently), because everything women hear in schools is about exciting career pursuits. I.e., many forces in society are pushing us to find rewards in education and careers.

Not a bad thing in general. But ay, there’s the rub: we women can only twist and turn ourselves so far in pretending NOT to be independent. Sure, women can put on a show of needing, but the truth will out; it cannot be contained. Sensible men will know that women don’t need certain things any more than they do. It doesn’t mean that women and men won’t continue to desire each other’s company; that is hardwired into our biology. But the illusion of certain types of need must diminish with time.

In some ways, this is inevitable. America forces the notion of independence down our throats, which overall is good, but has its drawbacks too. As women grow ever more engaged in every aspect of society, of course we will be encouraged or forced to pursue that same path.

For our part, I think we women need to become much more accepting of the “beta males” that Evan refers to in this post – the ones who don’t earn as much as us, who may be shorter than us, who would be happy to stay at home. That, along with men becoming more accepting of strong women, will restore balance in future generations of relationships.
Greg 56

@Sayanta

Most people do not work 60 hours a week. Maybe the most people in your particular field. I’m an engineer and I’ve never worked 60 hours in a single week in my entire career. If I had to I would quitm because other things are more important.

@Helen

What’s with all this stuff about women not knowing how to do anything? If anything the modern woman has less skills than the women of previous generations. Many women today can’t even cook. My stay at home mother had a masters degree but could cook, clean, sew, was in charge of paying the bills, cut hair, could do yard work and paint. The only thing she couldn’t do was move refrigerators and couches and operate chainsaws and power-tools. That’s where my father came in. They are a real team and always work together and give each other credit.
Women of past generations worked hard in the fields and managed family businesses. They might not have been climbing the corporate ladder, but they were very capable, as women have always been since the beginning of time. None of these things that my mom or other women did are rocket science or require a degree. Everyone should be able to do them. My mom laughs at women who have doctorate degrees but can’t cook a decent meal or mop a floor. So yes, women SHOULD know how to take care of themselves, but they should also allow the men in their lives to feel needed and a part of the team.
Ann 57

Helen@55: Fantastic comments. One other thought: Today so many tasks are automated and outsourced, and knowledge about how to do almost anything is so easy to access that the idea of men’s and women’s tasks based on some biological predilection is falling away. Guys don’t need to know how to lube an engine anymore, and they can watch cooking demos on TV if they want to learn how to cook. Women can learn the principles of aerodynamics by taking an online course and hire a cleaning service for their houses. Or vice versa.

EMK@47: As Helen mentioned, I’m in a relationship with a guy, and because I want it, not because I need it. Three years now, and we knew each other for more than a decade before we decided to become involved. Both of us have been in long-term relationships before; neither of us has married and we don’t plan to. No kids, though we both are very involved with other people’s children through work, family, or volunteerism. I ran a marathon this year. The training didn’t bother him at all. We both have highly responsible jobs that require specialized skills; we both make six figures; we both sometimes work 60 hours per week. We each take care of our own needs (which are, admittedly, quite simple), so that when we are together (anywhere from every day to one day per week) we focus on what we co-create. Our co-creations include all kinds of travel, healthy cooking, exercise (jogging, biking, mountain hiking, XC skiing, swimming), artistic pursuits (a major thing for us), and education. Each of us has a wide circle of family/friends, acquaintances, and coworkers, many of whom we’ve known for decades. We are both loved, and we love in return. We both know that if we were to break up (which we have discussed), we would both meet other people and move on. I don’t see what’s missing here.

Gem@52: I was just saying that I didn’t think you can make a comparison between getting fired from a job and getting divorced. That’s because everybody needs to work, so losing one’s job is a risk that everyone takes in order to survive. People don’t have to be married, so people who don’t want to risk a divorce often choose to stay unmarried.
devymetal 58

@ Ann57: I don’t see what’s missing here.

Honestly, what’s missing is marriage, children, and the commitment to never break up.

You may not want or value these things, but most women do.
Stacey 59

Evan #47:

If you work 60 hours a week, your guy doesn’t get his needs met. If you’re training for a triathlon, he doesn’t get his needs met. If you’re high-maintenance and critical, he doesn’t get his needs met

Evan, could you elaborate on this. Which needs are not being met by me training for a marathon? It was amusing to read this comment since I do run marathons. Me and my boyfriend work out together half the times (he doesn’t do long runs but short are ok) and the actual events (marathons and half marathons) are very festive, family members come to cheer and support, we go for a meal after… ? Also, nothing keeps you in shape better than running, really nothing, so a guy should actually benefit from his g/f being active.

Also, I do work in a demanding industry and 60 hours a week is kinda on the low side of what people work, but so does my boyfried. We still get to cook dinners together cuddle in front of the TV or go out.

It sounds to me like you’re talking about a type of guy who expects his woman’s life to revolve around him. In that case, he better be a really, really amazing catch, like Derek Jeter great. Everyone else better get over themselves. Just my opinion.
Margaret 60

Ann and Helen, all excellent comments.

@ Greg: What if a woman has no desire to cook elaborate meals? It’s not necessarily hardwired into all of us. I agree, we should all have certain basic skills. I can prepare basic meals, and clean the house beautifully if I have to. I just don’t want to. I work hard, so I keep the house picked up and have a cleaning lady every two weeks. I think it’s wonderful for both men and women( who have the desire), to cook like Michael Symon.

Your mom sounds wonderful….much like mine. I’ll admit, I fall far short of both of them in terms of domestic skills. As a little girl, I was never overaly interested in being a homemaker. But my mother admires me for what I give to my patients and their families. I often joke that I throw myself so much into my career so that I don’t dwell on what crummy homemaker I am! LOL

I think we all bring something to the table, and those assets don’t necessarily fall along tradtitional and historic lines.
Evan Marc Katz 61

@Stacey – I make generalizations in order to give advice. If you and your boyfriend share in the marathoning experience, I’m thrilled for you.

But if I’m your husband, and I’m coming home at 7pm to eat dinner, and that’s the very time that you’re going out to run for two hours – or if you take every weekend to train – or if you wake up really early to run and go to bed really early… when exactly do I get to spend time with you? Obviously if you share your athletic passions, it works. But what about the 99% of men who DON’T run marathons? They wouldn’t get much out of being with someone as busy as you. That’s all I’m saying.
Stacey 62

Evan, so you’re really talking about simple compatibility here. Running marathons doesn’t keep you single. Working 60 hours doesnt keep you single. Doing that AND going after guys who expect you to be home at 7pm with the dinner ready and doesn’t share your major interests – does. That is a whole different issue altogether. And, as a person with an active, busy and fulfilling life, why would I want to be with someone like that, what do I get out of it? Shouldn’t a relationship be mutually beneficial, so to speak
Evan Marc Katz 63

My life is perfectly fulfilling without running marathons, Stacey. Don’t make the mistake of assuming that because someone doesn’t share your hobbies, they’re less of a person or that you couldn’t be perfectly happy with them.

The problem here is only the one you’ve created for yourself. If you insist that you need a man who runs marathons for “compatibility” then you’ve eliminated 99% of the population. Where as I can date 99% of the population because I don’t need a woman who runs marathons. Furthermore, 99% of men might just find that you’re too unavailable. Sounds to me like you’ve created a quandary for yourself. It’s not impossible for the marathon runner or mountain climber or extreme SCUBA diver to find love with a man who does the same activities…there’s just a LOT fewer options in the universe for you.
Sayanta 64

Well, I don’t relate to the marathon thing but it seems that if you have a passion in life you have to choose bt that or a husband
Angie 65

Evan, you had me until your post #47.

If you are working 60 hours a week or training for a triathlon, you may be doing this to meet your own needs. Your primary need is to support yourself, and some people need to work 60 hours a week to do so. (About 5-6 years ago, I was let go from a position I’d been in for a year due to lack of work, but picked up a 2-week contract gig that required I travel out of town… My then-bf threw a fit that if I “needed money that bad he could pay me to sit on his couch” b/c he didn’t want me leaving town for two weeks). Too bad if he wasn’t getting his “needs” met. It’s condescending, jerky behavior to not allow your girlfriend to support herself. That is NOT the same as letting a man be a gentlemen and help out with “manly” tasks such as car maintenance or electronics setup.

Also, I agree that you shouldn’t drop a hobby for a man.
Evan Marc Katz 66

I’m not really concerned if I lost you, Angie. It just means you’re trying to find every means to misinterpret what I said. I never said that your man should forbid you from having a hobby. I never said that you should refuse to support yourself. I never said you should date a guy who would pay you to sit on his couch out of his own insecurity. Those are all your words, not mine.

I said that the greatest gift you can give a man is your time. And if you can’t or won’t give more time to him because you’re busy working or running, you will find fewer men who are content with your relationship. That’s not my opinion. That’s my observation. If you choose to run marathons or being a CEO over a man, that’s your business. It doesn’t affect me one bit and I do hope you’re happy with your choices.
Sayanta 67

It’s funny though- a LOT of Indian couples I know have had commuter courtships or worked overseas apart from their partner- its just accepted. They’ve also stayed married. I think western men tend to need more care and feeding. It’s part of the narcissism culture- bound to happen.
Michelle 68

Is there a class or something to teach people how to look at the big picture and get out of the weeds?! Geez Louise…this are pretty simple concepts and truisms, and they being argued with semantics.
Helen 69

Sayanta 64: No. NO. You don’t have to make that choice. If anything, your passion or hobby or community activity is where you have a better likelihood of meeting the one for you!

Don’t give up the things you love just for the purposes of finding a husband. When you find the one who is right for you, figure out ways to compromise or work out schedules if either of you feels you’re not seeing enough of the other.

In a tender and mature relationship, this kind of discussion can take place without any anger, resentment, or guilting on either side.
Evan Marc Katz 70

Yes, Michelle, there is a class. It’s called my Commitment Course. Except all the people who chose to argue with me in this forum would never take it because it might mean letting go of certain limiting beliefs or changing certain behaviors and expectations.

And most of us would much prefer for everyone else to change, instead of changing ourselves.

The few who are open to change are the ones who pay for my products, hire me and get results. Everyone else just complains that I’m wrong.

If you want to be the CEO who works 60 hour weeks, if you want to run marathons, if you want to date a 45 year old with washboard abs, if you want your man to be an animal activist, if you want to meet men without dating online, if you want a man who makes more than you even though you make a ton of money, if you want a man who is the greatest in bed and has a libido that completely matches yours, if you want a man who has the same exact spiritual beliefs, etc, etc, I am extremely happy for you. Go out and get him. Just stop complaining to me that you can’t find him, okay?
Evan Marc Katz 71

Yes, Helen, it’s very easy to meet men on the top of Mt. Kilimanjaro or SCUBA diving off the Great Barrier Reef. No one’s saying for you to give up your hobbies. I’m just saying that if you spend all your time with your hobbies and you never meet any men, it’s pretty predictable why you can’t find love.
Helen 72

Evan 71, now you are the one going to extremes.

By pursuing passions and hobbies and community activities, this is what I am referring to (not limited to): ultimate frisbee. Another team sport. Running. Going to the gym. A musical group such as a choir or an orchestra or a band. A volunteer at the local library. Church. Synagogue. Mosque. Youth group for those young enough.

I met my spouse through a mutual activity. And so can, and do, other women (and men).
Stacey 73

Evan, my comments were not intended as a personal attack. I am sure your life is flfilling. You are correct when you say that the biggest gift you can give to a man is your time. Still, what you do together during that time is a choice, and it better be something that interests both. And no, i would absolutely not be happy with a guy who shares none of my interests. I am fairly athletic and a couch potato would drive me nuts. I don’t understand the infatuation with targeting 99% of men – honestly, I wouldn’t want to be with 99% of men, i am pretty selective. The 1% of a large pool in NYC does it just fine for me.

Oh, and on a subject of meeting men on Mt. Kilimanjaro i was hit on and asked a phone number during running events and trainig in Central Park in NYC too many times to count. I mean, c’mon - those high end gyms and popular outdoor trainig spots are THE places to meet active singles of all ages.
Stacey 74

On a separate note, I think at least a part of the problem that “strong, successful women” face today when it comes to mating is a problem of social mobility. I would bet any amount of money that self-made women are having harder time finding equal husbands than those who were born into money, other qualities (looks and degrees of bitchiness) being equal. Reason is that a lot of successful men dont really have time to date, and are often setup by other people in their lives, who most of the time come from money and pick prospective dates from their circles…. A guy works his tail off, then gets setup by his coworkers with a rich girl and marries her. So, any woman whose family did not belong to the right country club and who rose through life due to her own determination is somewhat at a disadvantage here.
Sayanta 75

Stacy-

I don’t know if a lot of women are looking for a corporate country club guy- I’m certainly not. Give me a cute, easygoing techie and I’ll be a happy woman.
Evan Marc Katz 76

Helen and Stacey – appreciate your participation but please, stop making it sound like I told you to give up your hobbies and interests. Nowhere did I say that. Nowhere did I say that you have to be married. Nowhere did I say that you should find a guy who doesn’t share ANY interests with you. This is your liberal twisting of what I said and I’m tired of defending myself against things I’ve never written. Future instances will be deleted. Have a good weekend.
Helen 77

Evan 76: huh? I NEVER accused you of that. I was responding to Sayanta, not you, in 64! Please look at our original chain of comments.
Ileana 78

Evan, why do you even bother answering all these attacks in the first place? This very same conversation/discussion/somewhat agressive comment exchange already happened X times before. On EXACTLY the same matters. I have the feeling that you’re running in circles here. These people WILL NOT change the way they view life and will keep twisting what you said in every single post which might hit their soft spots. It will never be their fault that men generally dont want to commit to them because they’re supper busy in their own cosy overly busy universe, it will always be somebody else. This is a typical ‘Blame Canada’ attitude.
Plus, they will always find faults in what you SAY and will always have the feeling that you are telling them to be something less than they are (in the end, i think the major problem is that they always feel they have to justify themselves). Probably that’s the flip side of being a so called ‘smart strong successful’ woman
On a side note, perhaps if these women, who are working 60-90 hours per week, would spend less time online defending their life choices on a relationship blog and arguing with you, they might actually have more time for their SO or higher chances of meeting him.
Tontae 79

It appears to me that the dissenters need to try to have their egos massaged at the expense of Evan’s excellent advice.
Dissenters (and you know who you are) stop hijacking Evan’s blog – go and start your own, you can spout any kind of rhetoric you prefer, without having to subject the rest of us to it.
Evan Marc Katz 80

Tontae – I hope it’s clear that I don’t mind dissent, as long as it’s based on reason and a clear understanding and interpretation of what I wrote. Unfortunately, that rarely happens. Most people see any point of view that contradicts theirs or personally indicts them as an “attack”. So if I tell a woman that men like sex, it becomes, “Oh, so I should just sleep around with every man!” If I tell a woman that height isn’t a particularly important trait in the grand scheme of things, it becomes “Oh, so I should go out with some guy that I’m completely unattracted to?” I don’t know what to do about these comments, because, while I don’t want to censor anybody, it takes up an inordinate amount of time to defend myself against things I haven’t said. Plus, it’s not really much fun. But I don’t mind if people disagree – as you can probably tell from all the disagreement here – as long as they don’t twist my original position.
Ann 81

EMK@80: I think it’s just that your examples aren’t really drawn from your personal experience and so they don’t ring true for those of us who have those personal experiences. As someone pointed out, when you run marathons you meet a ton of guys who share that interest, and guys LOVE the benefit of being with a physically fit woman. So having a passion for fitness is maybe not the best example of zealotry run amok.

The point you want to make–that if you don’t have time to spend with a guy he won’t be interested in you–is well taken. The same is true for a woman, so that advice goes both ways. Therefore its doubly good!

And about the hard-boiled personalities of successful women, consider this: if you’re a woman in a position of authority in a company you cannot go into any situation with some rigid, ball-busting demeanor. You actually have to be quite fluid socially and be able to discuss all manner of things with all manner of people, whether the peson in question is a crazy boss or a difficult client or a subordinate with a crippling personal problem. It’s true, you can’t do that kind of job if your basic approach to others is always to smile and acquiesce to make them feel good. Sometimes you have to deliver a tough message and you have to be able to do the heavy lifting. And sometimes you are the one who smooths everything over so that your department or company can contribute something to the world at large.

devymetal@58: We don’t value marriage above other types of loving relationships; we have chosen not to have our own biological children for a host of good, humanitarian reasons; we are committed first to our own personal growth, for which we are directly responsible, and secondarily to the personal growth of all those in our lives, to whom we are indirectly responsible. We don’t believe that you can only love people if you are married to them. And we don’t want the legal entanglements that come with marriage. It works for us! That said, we also love our married friends and relations and support them in having good marriages.
DM 82

Ileana@78 – Your response was exactly what was going through my mind as I read this post! Why do people come here for advice, only to dismiss it? If you are coming here for enlightenment, why are you arguing? If you really knew better, you wouldn’t be reading this blog in the first place. You’d be off enjoying your wonderful relationship.

The great thing about EMK is that he gives you insight into what MEN are thinking! You can ask all the girlfriends you want, and they’ll probably agree with you, because they think like a woman; same as you! You may not like his answers, (truth is often unpopular) but I can honestly say, I’ve tried his advice and it helps!

There’s a cliche that goes “the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, and expecting different results.”

I’m not saying this to offend anyone – but really, it does get ridiculous!
Serena27 83

To summarize what I’ve understood, the OP and several posters are trying to prove they don’t need a man to be happy, to pay the bills, to take care of them, etc., and will even tell a man that to his face. Why would you to tell someone that? It’s unnecessary, and hurtful, and pushes people away. Other posters (or maybe the same ones) give evidence of how they were dumped when they tried being needy as if this proves something beyond the fact that men (all humans) with healthy boundaries don’t want to be with someone who can’t meet their own needs.

I think the whole problem is the use of this word “need”. If you look at Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, sure enough, you won’t see ‘a man’ or ‘a woman’ on the list of needs. But you will see “Love and Belonging” as an entire category. I need love and belonging. I need meaningful, interpersonal relationships. If I want to meet those needs, then I have to put in a lot of time and energy developing my relationships with friends and family or I won’t have friends and my family and I will become distant with each other.

If I also want to meet that need through an intimate relationship then, as a heterosexual woman, I will be looking for a man. But the need is not ‘a man’, it is still “love and belonging” and I am still responsible for meeting that need. I don’t expect a man to meet that need for me, simply by being a man (or for him to be the only way I meet it, ignoring friends and family).

I don’t expect him to meet my my other needs. If I need to excercise, or de-stress, it’s up to me to meet those needs. Maybe you will get a guy who runs a bubbble bath for you, or maybe you will get a guy who, when asked, will watch the baby while you have your bath.

If your needs are in conflict, and you want to remain in that relationship then one or both of you will have to make compromises to make it possible for you to both meet your needs. If the relationship does not meet your needs, why would you stay? Why would he?
Kurt 84

The woman who wrote the letter is almost certainly a controlling ball-buster and that is not attractive at all.
Ann 85

Serena@83: Very well put.
CR 86

Great blog. A lady friend of mine told me about it, and it’s nice to see someone giving realistic advice instead of ‘feel good’ nonsense. I often give advice to my single friends (they ask, and I was an experienced dater before I settled down), but I’m not sure if it is any good

Reading the letter, I don’t care what she looks like, I would run for the hills if I were single.

I make a good living, am in good shape, etcetera. Likewise, my gf has a good job, in good shape, etcetera. She challenges me, but leaves me to my devices for the most part.

Kurt got it right, no one wants a controlling ballbuster. The tone of the letter is pushy, self-righteous and annoying.

No guy wants to deal with that.
Gemma 87

I can’t say I agree completely with the advice given here.

What I still for the life of me can’t figure out is the whole “men need to be needed” attitude. It makes no sense in the modern world. I don’t get why men feel useful when changing a tire or mowing a lawn or setting up a tv or cable or something. Guess what? There are many men, women and even children that could probably do all of the above. How does that make a man feel special? I would like to think a man would want to be wanted. You know, regardless if you need anything from me, you still want me here. Doesn’t that make more sense?

Women have entered the work force, and have become much more self sufficient and I can’t see how that is unattractive to anyone. You mean you have your own job, friends, house, car, money? You can cook, clean, change a tire etc? What man isn’t absolutely impressed by this?

Now, you have the men who fell for women who depended on them for all of these things and when she used him up and left he became absolutely bitter over it. That dependence turned into entitlement. You can’t have your cake and eat it too. Wouldn’t dating someone who had their lives together ensure that they were with you because they wanted you for companionship, sex, laughing together, exploring together, growing old together, raising a family etc? You can have more fun with a women with no real problems and its less likely to back fire don’t you think?

Marriage is a partnership. To me, that means each partner should be carrying an equal weight. Maybe you take care of the finances more often while your wife takes care of cooking more often. But I believe that each partner should be able to both. If the weight is dropped from either side and your partner can’t pick it up how is your family unit secure? If you’re the sole breadwinner and you lose your job then what? Lets say you die or your wife dies? The slack has to be picked up or else you’re screwed. The family is screwed. Do people not consider this? Men and women don’t have the luxury to dominate only one arena in the relationship anymore. Both parties have to be at least proficient in all aspects to ensure security. Especially with the economy, health care, the rising cost of raising a child and the price of college tuition. Is no one considering this?

Also, the whole feminine/masculine thing. I don’t want to say it doesn’t matter because to a degree it does but I think people define femininity too rigidly. It doesn’t have one form at all. With that being said a majority of women possess the type that is forced on the minority of women who possess a different type. There are waif-like, warm, nuturing, playful types of feminine energy that a lot of men are attracted to and want to protect, then you have the stoic, calm, strong type of feminine energy. Those are a couple examples though I believe there are many others.

That being said I am more of a strong, stoic type of femininity. I am very caring and nurturing, but only with the people I think are worthy of it. Its not something everyone is privy to. Once you become important to me I will protect and care for you completely. I will not waiver. No matter how hard I try I will always be an acquired taste. I think that some women should accept that and stop trying to fit into the “mold”. Molds are created by the majority to cater to the majority. I for one am not attracted to most men. That is the archetype manly man. I’m also not attracted to weaker or more submissive men. My ideal man? Someone who is as strong as I am. Who has a solid sense of self and his masculinity that can not be broken by the presence of a “strong” woman. Someone who doesn’t see their worth in trivial things like being having a woman “need” them but would much rather want to be desired by that woman. Someone who doesn’t need to have a woman below him to feel like a man.

Sure, I realize that I am probably lowering my chances of finding the ideal mate but quite honestly I would rather be alone than settle for someone just for the sake of being like everyone else. Settling would make me miserable. I enjoy being single and would only give that up for the right person. There are more than enough people reproducing. I don’t think the fate of the human race is riding on my back.

I don’t know Amber personally so I can’t make a proper judgement of her, but I think she needs to do some self reflecting. I can identify with how she is thinking because I used to think like that. Naturally I reflected on it, did a lot of research, and came out better on the other side. I would recommend she do the same. No one can tell her to change, she has to do it herself. From what she wrote she seems a little on the obnoxious side. That’s not always a bad thing, but if she isn’t completely aware then it can do. Maybe work on self-awareness? I can’t get pretty obnoxious once I start rolling with the jokes if I’m not aware of it. Now, I naturally catch myself and tone it down a bit. She also needs to become more humble and stop shoving herself down peoples throats I feel like she needs to accept that a lot of men won’t be attracted to her. I sometimes get envious of others relationships even though I know I would hate to be in their situation because they aren’t my idea of happiness. She needs to stop comparing how many men she gets to how many other women get. At the end of the day you’re only marrying one right? Try to attract that ONE!

So Evan, I can say I respect the “get-with-the-program” attitude you seem to be giving. Its easy for everyone to continue to perpetuate and ideal relationship that has now died. Your advice is the exact same that every other match makers are giving. Just because something works for 80% of people doesn’t mean you can simply say tell the other 20% to do the same. Thats the easy way out.

I think about it like this: Before gender identity was a researched disorder people were told to get over it and be like everyone else. Now, everyone acknowledges its existence.

So, women who are truly strong and independent do exist. No, we don’t think were special or are proving anything to men. Its just our natural way of being. There have been a lot of women who are now bandwagoning and tarnishing the words “strong” and “independent” for said women. Now we get a really bad rap. While we may make up a smaller portion of the population I don’t think we should be ignored just because it is easier to cater to the 80% you write for. Though, I do understand it is more lucrative. Thats, all I have to say.

Gemma
SS 88

I don’t get why men feel useful when changing a tire or mowing a lawn or setting up a tv or cable or something.

Because you’re not a man. Neither am I. I don’t get it, but it’s not for me to “get.”

If there are things that men have to say, I listen. Whether I agree with those men or not, if a large number of men are saying the same thing, then I believe that point should be considered and accepted for what it is. I don’t know why so many of us have issues with considering that men’s feelings, beliefs and yes, needs, are perfectly valid.
Clare 89

I loved Evan’s response to Amber’s letter, and I wish I could send it to a friend I know who is perpetually complaining that men don’t want to be with her because she is too beautiful, too intelligent, too funny and too high-powered in her career. She is all these things, but she is also self-absorbed, sharp-tongued, sarcastic and insecure. She not only is not warm, responsive and loving in a feminine way, she also has no problem firing off missives about what she feels is wrong with all these “douchebags”. I don’t know, to me it’s a bit of a no-brainer, but she insists that they can’t handle her awesomeness.
Barry 90

I’ve read all of these responses, and the one thing that really sticks out to me is how many of the women arguing with Evan Marc Katz simply don’t get it.

While perusing the comments, I found myself inadvertently thinking “I would never date this woman” or “I could see myself going out with her” very quickly and easily.

Possibly the best relationship I’ve ever had in my life was with a smart and strong woman. She was a tomboy, with a lot of “masculine” energy, as many of the women who seemed to have difficulty with this statement–she made more money than me, loved sports, could pick up a hammer and share a carpentry project with me, traded insults with me and my guy friends (don’t ask ladies–it’s a form of male bonding) and could totally kick your ass at beer pong! Yet, she was the most nurturing, caring, feminine woman I have ever known. She never pretended that she didn’t “need” me, never hid her vulnerabilities from me and always found a gentle way of supporting me emotionally. I loved that she wasn’t a ball buster. I loved how she laughed at my jokes (or made fun of me for telling a bad joke). I loved how I felt accepted by her. She inspired me to be the best man I could be!

THAT is the feminine energy that we look for. Never have I wanted a helpless little doll. Ever since I moved to New York, I have yet to find a single woman who possesses that feminine energy here. Everybody is too busy being “smart, strong and successful” to bother being nurturing.
Bruce 91

Trenia’s comment was right on about women changing more than men. The only problem I see is that men have tended to evolve emotionally more than women. Experiencing NYC culture, traveling to Europe, or being in control does not impart emotional experiences. Perhaps women dealing with rejection, failures, and missed opportunities will counter this trend, and bring about a more balanced approach to life.

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