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Categories: Dating Tags: dating, dating advice, friendship, how you can tell if a guy likes you
“When Harry Met Sally” posed the age-old question, and seemed to answer it: No. Men and women can’t just be friends. Attraction always gets in the way. But if you’re lucky, you can fall in love with your best friend.
This popular YouTube video posits largely the same premise – men will always want to sleep with their platonic girlfriends.
And while I don’t trust college boys to teach any life lessons in platonic friendship, even science validates their claim that men will sleep with their friends. From this Psychology Today article:
“In a study published in the Journal of Social and Personal Relationships, Sapadin asked more than 150 professional men and women what they liked and disliked about their cross-sex friendships. Topping women’s list of dislikes: sexual tension. Men, on the other hand, more frequently replied that sexual attraction was a prime reason for initiating a friendship, and that it could even deepen a friendship. Either way, 62 percent of all subjects reported that sexual tension was present in their cross-sex friendships.”
Pretty predictable, but important for women to understand. If a guy is making an effort to hang out with you, it’s probably not just “as friends”. He’s merely accepting friendship, in lieu of dating you, because it beats the alternative. And what’s the alternative? Having no girl friends, and, therefore, no one to confide in. From the same article:
If a guy is making an effort to hang out with you, it’s probably not just “as friends”.
“Men rated cross-sex friendships as being much higher in overall quality, enjoyment and nurturance than their same-sex friendships. What they reported liking most was talking and relating to women—something they can’t do with their buddies. Meanwhile, women rated their same-sex friendships higher on all these counts. They expect more emotional rewards from friendship than men do, explained Sapadin, so they’re easily disappointed when they don’t receive them. “Women confide in women,” noted Blieszner. “Men confide in women.”
This all reinforces a principle extolled in my book, “Why He Disappeared”. Men don’t choose women because you’re taller, smarter, richer, funnier or more sophisticated. Men choose women because you listen to them, provide empathy and support and affection – none of which he really gets from his guy friends.
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Too true Evan. The only ones you can really be long term friends with are the ones you’ve been out with in the past, it didn’t work out, and so you know he has no interest in that side of things.
How did the salmon trousers work out for yesterday? Turn a few heads strutting John Travolta stylee? I love it. I’m going to get a pair for my hubby. Men who wear pink are statistically more successful in relationships and careers. I reported on it a while back after reading a research paper on it. It takes confidence and an at eased state of mind.
Best
Grace
Good article. I think it’s pretty accurate. I also think that men tend not to want to be friends unless there is some physical attraction present. And some men enjoy a dash of flirtation in their opposite-sex friendships. It’s safe, but fun. But sexual attraction adds a very unpredictable element to friendship. It’s much easier for me to be friends with someone I’m not that attracted to or who is already taken, then with someone I’m very attracted to, who isn’t as attracted to me.
In some ways, I think that men and women would be better off romantically, if they spent more time being friends first. This, to me, is one of the biggest flaws in online dating. When you meet through a dating site, there’s a lot of pressure to have a relationship right away, but if you’re friends, the romantic aspect has a chance to build slowly as you get to know each other better. Too many people are operating on the “big bang” theory of romance.
As to point number 4, if you thought someone was a “narcissist”, “unstable”, “trashy”. or “sad”, why would you want to be friends with them?
Great post Evan, thank you. I just have to ask you and any guy reading about your 2nd point. That guys can really sleep with someone they’re BARELY EVEN ATTRACTED TO… is this really true? Yuck. Come on guys, please weigh in. I’ve heard this before but if I asked my guy friends about his, I think they would say that they’d have to be fairly attracted to a woman to sleep with her. Or is that wishful thinking on my part? I guess it comes from me worrying that maybe some guy in my past who I had a great time with wasn’t the least bit attracted to me….ouch!
I don’t really think it’s as simple as a guy hanging around you probably wants more than just friendship. There’s context to take into account. How did you meet? Where do you spend your time together? What draws you together? Are you both single? Were you both single at the time of meeting? Secondly, I get the sense this kind of research assumes cross-gender relationships at similar age backgrounds. My own friendship circle is widely diverse age-wise, and the same is true for many people I know, including members of my family. Workplace-based friendships frequently are cross generational, as are friendships amongst members of spiritual/religious communities. Obviously, big age differences don’t always negate sexual attraction, but it clearly reduces the likelihood. Thirdly, it isn’t a one way street. I’ve had more than one friendship over the years where my female friend was sexually attracted to me, and I didn’t really feel the same. I can go along with idea that men are more likely to be the “interested party” in the friendship, but I also think there’s a minority percentage of women in that role as well. Fourth, men are not a monolith. Some of us actually are capable of listening, providing support, etc. It may look a bit different from what the average women offers, but that’s different than painting men as all being “manly dudes.” And actually, I’ve met guys who are quite stereotypically manly that also are good listeners and supportive in their own ways. At the same time, I’ve known men who are more stereotypically “beta” and yet aren’t supportive at all. Go hang out in academia for a little while if you don’t believe that one. Bottom line is that I’m not convinced it’s accurate to assume that any guy who wants to “hang around” with a woman wants to also sleep with her. It seems helpful to note that sexual tension is fairly common amongst cross-gender relationships, and to use that as a cue to consider other issues, such as context.
@Amy – They can DEFINITELY sleep with someone they aren’t attracted to even remotely, or find irritating, especially if they’ve been drinking.
I have a question for Evan and all others who would like to weigh in:
What if I’m on the other side of that? I.e. I am dating a guy and most of his friends are female. I’m ashamed to say but it makes me feel insecure, because he has mentioned many times, he had asked the girl out, and she replied that she’s already in a relationship. So then he settled with being a friend to her. This has happened with most of his female friends that he has today.
I’m scared that the only reason he is with me is because he can’t have his female friends. I mean, in a sense, they all friendzoned him (politely, of course). Sometimes I’m scared that if one of his female friends becomes available, he might lose interest in me, or at least become somewhat less enthusiastic about me. I mean, I believe this is mostly my insecurities talking, but I can’t shake the feeling that he’s with me mostly because of circumstance (i.e. everybody that he really wanted are not available) and not because of he actively chose me out of everyone. He still has these friendships with women and I think he partly enjoys them because he is attracted to them. It’s more fun for him to talk to somebody that he likes to look at, I guess. I read somewhere that even if we know that things are going nowhere, we still like attention from the opposite sex.
Anyways, this makes me sound really immature and insecure, but I guess at times it’s true of me.
Evan, I agree totally! Which is why my policy has always been with the men I date, that they are welcome to the women friends that they come into the relationship with, but there is no good reason for them to pursue new ones.
I think women and men can be friends, but it is much easier for women to be “just friends” than the other way around…now, can they be good friends with nothing else going on…that’s something else entirely…
Personally I don’t want to be friends with men who hurt me or no longer find me attractive, if there was something there at one point. I don’t really see what the point is of trying to be friends with a woman you hurt or dumped. Especially if the guy hurt me, what does a friendship do for me? I think by acting like nothing ever happened it’s rather insulting. He’s not my friend.
@Rose – You’re making two patently false assumptions:
1) That every guy who hooks up with you is hurting you. There are many women who enjoy fooling around and also agree that just because two people aren’t meant to be a couple, she shouldn’t have regrets about a few nights of fun. Stop playing the victim. And stop assuming that foreplay is a promise of a relationship.
2) You’re also somehow concluding that your male friends should find you attractive. (“I don’t want to be friends with men who no longer find me attractive”) I think it’s obvious that men and women can have a much easier friendship if there’s NO sexual tension, but you seem to want your male friends to find you attractive although you don’t find them attractive. Got it.
Most of my close friends are male, and I really don’t get the sense they are hanging around for sex. They are more like brothers. I was never one of those touchy feely flirty girls and radiate a strong friend vibe with them so it was never an issue. However, there is a close guy friend I sleep with but I don’t see him as relationship material at all and vice versa; nothing is weird and we even help each other out with the opposite sex. It just happens on occasion. At any rate, I always found girls more difficult to be friends with, and less interesting and fun — moreover most girls my age (late twenties) are in relationships so I don’t waste my time with them as much and just party with the guys on weekends.
@ Girl in the Midwest #6,
No definite answer, but I’ve had some experience being on all sides of this.
1) Towards the end of my marriage, I had a crush on a single male friend, that I did not act upon for obvious reasons. As soon as my divorce became final, I asked him out and he said no. I immediately went out and started dating other people. That was a couple of years ago and now we’re both in LTRs with other people. I cannot say that we’re friends, but definitely on friendly terms. Weirdest thing though, as soon as he said no to going out, it was like someone flipped a switch. All my feelings for this guy just, poof, disappeared. I vaguely remember being attracted to him, but I cannot remember why or how! So hopefully this might be the case with the guy you’re dating, as well — maybe he’s not feeling anything for his female friends anymore, either?
2) I dated a guy once who was an old friend from an old job. Once in a conversation, he mentioned another female coworker to me, saying something like “I wanted to date either you or her, but she’s out of my league, so”… ugh! Because he was an old friend, I let that one slide. One time after a date, his car broke down and we were stranded in the middle of a suburban street, at 2AM in the dead of winter. I couldn’t call anyone for a ride as I’d left my phone at home with all my contacts in it, so it was up to him to find us a ride. We had to go each to our own home, because we both had our kids that night. He ended up calling that other girl. She pulls up to where we were standing, he hops into the passenger seat, I sit in the back, they start chatting and forget about me. I tried to participate in their conversation, but they both totally ignored me. Keep in mind this girl is *my* old coworker, that I’d worked with for several years, whom I hadn’t seen also in several years, so in theory she and I had a lot to catch up on — in reality though, she just went on chatting with this guy, whom she saw at work every day, and seemed to forget that I even was in the car! At one point, I was seriously worried that she’d go straight to his place to drop him off and forget about me. Clearly he was NOT over her, and who knows what sparks were flying between those two. I’d been considering breaking up for other reasons, and I guarantee you, this incident helped me make up my mind. We only dated for another week or two after that.
So bottom line, I guess, is that whether you’re safe with your guy or not, depends on your guy and his personality. Maybe he’s really and truly over his female friends, and maybe he’s not. Hard to tell without knowing any of them personally.
Gee Evan, way too true. Really works that way.
Interesting post Evan Glad to learn something new from this article re the male perspective . Think the message is accurate.
I always avoided having male friends while married.
Have to admit I cringed when I read the point about men sleeping with anyone they are barely attracted to but thats probably right to. Post divorce and a 2 year miserable celibacy period I impulsively slept with a guy who extended no level of friendship to me and that was probably the case. Luckily now Im more enlightened and have my game down LOL
I might be weird – and many would agree that I am – but the guys I’m friends with have no interest in me other than platonic friendship and I’m perfectly good with that, as I don’t have any sort of romantic interest in them. I’ve never had this situation occur and don’t ever expect that I will.
Great post Evan – true on all counts.
Amy # 3
Can “guys really sleep with someone they’re BARELY EVEN ATTRACTED TO…is this really true? Yuck. Come on guys, please weigh in.”
Yes this is absolutely true – as Evan said it depends on how drunk, lonely or horny he is. Sex is just like eating a burger to many men – if you haven’t eaten in a few days and are absolutely starving you won’t turn down some scraps of food if you can get it. Distasteful but true. I very much doubt any men anywhere are actually attracted to prostitutes, yet they still exist for this reason.
“I guess it comes from me worrying that maybe some guy in my past…wasn’t the least bit attracted to me…ouch!”
I wouldn’t worry too much about this really – it won’t achieve anything except make you insecure. I think it’s reasonable for you to believe that every guy you’ve been with was mad about you.
Girl in the Midwest #6
“What if I’m on the other side of that? I.e. I am dating a guy and most of his friends are female. I’m ashamed to say but it makes me feel insecure…I’m scared that the only reason he is with me is because he can’t have his female friends.”
I disagree a small bit Goldie – even thinking about this issue will feed that niggling little insecurity. Again worrying won’t achieve anything.
I remember a girl I dated had a few male friends who were always sniffing around hoping for a chance with her. They were always making snide comments trying to belittle me so as to get in there themselves – however, I didn’t bite as I was so convinced of who I am that I just knew she wasn’t going anywhere. Even if she did get with one of these friends there was nothing I could do about it. We should only worry about what we can control. I know you probably don’t want to look stupid in case something does happen, but again there’s nothing you can do if it does.
You really have to believe that you’re so special that of course you’re his first choice – this confidence is noticeable, and magnetic.
Anytime those thoughts come into your head just think of something else, anything else.
@starthrower68 – Then the most likely explanation is that the guys you’re friends with aren’t attracted to you. Because everything above indicates that men usually become friends with women they’re attracted to.
That’s fine if they’re not attracted to me. I’m good with that.
Yes they can! I used to think not but I guess I evolved. Or regressed.
@Rose #9
- maybe then a friendship with this other guy will be possible.
Not really sure why Evan jumped on you for this one. I have recently been ‘friend zoned’ for the first time ever by a man I had been seeing and was genuinely interested in. Maybe we can be friends sometime down the line, but why would I want a friendship with someone who I clearly want more from? who got to know me and decided to ‘pass’? I don’t think he did anything wrong to hurt me, per se, but I am hurt nonetheless.
Truth be told I have a lot more respect for those men I’ve friend zoned in the past- who were able to put their pride aside and continue a friendship with me. My pride is totally bruised in a way it has never been before, but I’m sure after the 3 dates I have lined up this weekend, I should be on my way to a full recovery
This is very true. I used to have a lot of male friends and I realised this was partly due to personal issues. So I decided to pull back from it. Now I have more female friends than my male friends, and I am closer to them.
So this post made me analyse my friendships with men. Of the men I’m friends with, the ones I’m closer to are ones I’ve known since childhood and are also in relationships and one is gay (so 2 proper genuine friends). Another guy I don’t see much of and we are not attracted to each other. He is only an acquaintance in my friendship group. But all the others have tried it on at some point, or have asked me out before. And if they haven’t asked me out, they’ve flirted with me or told me “you’re my type of girl” or something. I have a male friend I no longer talk to. I used to talk to him like I would a female friend, ask him for advice, sometimes cry in his shoulder. Unbeknownst to me (and due to naivety on my part), he fell in love with me, then he watched me date other guys. So our friendship didn’t last after that.Two of my guy friends really want to date me but I’m not into them. They are really nice guys though and always offer to help with stuff.
Wow. Now I feel that my friendships with certain men have just been fake. I genuinely like and see them as friends, and do not take advantage of them or lie about my intentions.
There is this other guy I was good friends with but am no longer. We had some chemistry (which sucked because I didn’t want to have chemistry with him). He is engaged and a good guy. I can get past it but he can’t. He even said to me “I don’t think you’d have been my type”. It’s an uncomfortable dynamic.
Of the guys I’ve hooked up with, the only ones who’ve become friends are the ones I was friends with anyway. The others have no respect for me and literally give me evil looks when they see me in public (I did not know they’d be like this before we hooked up). Or they think I’m going to get attached and probably don’t think we have enough in common to become friends.
Apart from 2 of my friends, I can’t think of a single man I’ve been friends with where there hasn’t been at least some attraction from one side.
Rose didn’t say how the former friend(s) hurt her or why she feels that way, so I wouldn’t just assume her feelings are misplaced. Maybe the guy actually did a sh*tty thing to her. It’s been known to happen.
I have decided that in this incarnation as a single person to not have a friend zone. In my past incarnations as a single, I had several male friends, but in all but 2 cases, one or the other of us was attracted to the other. It created an awkward dynamic. I have plenty of female friends and I have all the friendship I need at this point in my life, the only thing missing is a very special man who is my friend AND lover. I’m not knocking male/female platonic relationships, just saying “been there done that” and not going there again. (The only exception would be gay men, and since I do community theater, I do meet many gay men, so eventually, I might end up with a close gay male friend or two) Just putting in my 2 cents worth.
A man saying that he can’t have women friends is like him saying that he has no use for women he isn’t sleeping with. And vice versa for women. I’d think it strange that a woman who wants to have a long-term relationship with a man can’t even connect with one on just a friendship level.
Evan – You said . . .
@Rose – You’re making two patently false assumptions:
1) That every guy who hooks up with you is hurting you. There are many women who enjoy fooling around and also agree that just because two people aren’t meant to be a couple, she shouldn’t have regrets about a few nights of fun. Stop playing the victim. And stop assuming that foreplay is a promise of a relationship.
2) You’re also somehow concluding that your male friends should find you attractive. (“I don’t want to be friends with men who no longer find me attractive”) I think it’s obvious that men and women can have a much easier friendship if there’s NO sexual tension, but you seem to want your male friends to find you attractive although you don’t find them attractive. Got it.
Evan, As another reader commented, I’m not sure why you are jumping on Rose.
I don’t understand how her “assumption” about being hurt can be patently “false”. First of all, it is HER experience, so she is not “assuming” anything – - she was there. If she has sex with a man, and it doesn’t work out, and she feels hurt by it, then those are HER feelings, and she is IDENTIFYING her feelings, not “assuming” things. Yes, there are women who enjoy no strings attached sex, and there are many like Rose who do not. Doesn’t mean they are playing the “victim”. Doesn’t mean the man intentionally hurt her, but if it hurts, it hurts. Why shame a woman for how she feels. ? Second of all she never concluded that her male friends should find her attractive, she said didn’t want to be with a man who NO LONGER finds her attractive. To me, this indicates that the men who have hurt her, either at one time found her attractive, and no longer do, or never found her attractive in the first place, but communicated to her otherwise. And by the way, there are still some men who lie about their feelings and commitment level to gain sex, and for most women that HURTS. For women who are seeking a relationship, who thought that the sex was a celebration of a budding relationship and not just “a few nights of fun”, to be be dumped after “a few nights of fun” well, that HURTS. You can jump on me for saying this, but since you are keen on telling women to deal with men “the way they are,” and not how you want them to be, I think turn about is fair play. Deal with women the way they ARE, not how you think they “should” be. Many women ONLY want sex that part of a meaningful relationship, and feel USED to find out otherwise. Many men don’t like that, because they want women to be easy free-spirits out for a few nights of fun and/or a friendship with benefits. Well, my response to that is, that this is the way many women (perhaps most) ARE, even if men don’t like that.
I agree with Kiesh – I am just not seeing this dynamic in my own life of men as sex-obsessed beasts who will bang anything that moves and have ulterior motives for every interaction with women. Would some of my male friends sleep with me given the opportunity? I think so, but that is not why they are hanging out with me, they have other girls they see and aren’t creeps. Others would not. One of my closest friends is a straight, single guy who I’ve even traveled with by ourselves, and we’ve crashed at the other person’s place (on the couch) many times. This may seem odd, but we really haven’t had any tension. Another male friend (who now has a gf) I used to go to his hous ein the middle of the night to watch tv, and crash on his couch all the time, but there was zero romantic interest between either of us, we even talked about how we’d never date each other and it just wasn’t an issue.
Again, I wonder if this is generational – I know plenty of people in their late 20s/early 30s who, like me, have completely platonic friendships that just develop naturally, you end up in the same group of friends and start hanging out, or you met in another non-sexual environment like work. I would hope to continue these valuable friendships even after I am in a relationship/married, and that my future husband would also become friendly with them.
I don’t think the friend zone is necessarily a bad thing. A long-term relationship (not to mention marriage) is a huge undertaking and I personally wouldn’t want to enter into it with just any guy I’m physically attracted to. So, if at least one of us thinks that a relationship between the two of us won’t work, or if one of us isn’t ready for a relationship, then we both are probably much better off not getting into one together! Doesn’t mean we can’t be buddies, occasionally catch up over FB, IM or meet for drinks, and come to each other for advice if needed. Plus, opposite-sex friends can help each other out (ahem) when they’re both in between relationships. Win-win. Bottom line, by “friendzoning” me, the man is doing me a favor IMO — he is saving me from getting into a relationship that won’t make me happy.
I have always had at least as many male friends as I did female ones. Honestly I never bothered to find out if my guy friends are attracted to me on some level or not. Based on how many of my guy friends asked me out in the year following my divorce, and on how many of my current guy friends are people I used to date in the past, they probably are. They are also probably equally physically attracted to a number of other women. To me, only thing this says about them is that they are normal middle-aged men with little or no health problems, good for them! I find most of them attractive too! As long as everyone behaves like responsible adults, i.e. no one is cheating on their SOs or playing each other or leading each other on in any way, I do not see anything bad in this.
Adorable YouTube video. I had forgotten how cute students are, both male and female. Of course they’re all attracted to each other – who wouldn’t be?
From this side of the fence (not young anymore), I agree with Evan. It’s possible for men and women to just be friends if one or both parties are already in committed relationships (marriage or LTR), and if it’s implicitly clear that no boundaries are going to be crossed. Then it’s a very relaxed, nice sort of friendship.
I think it’s stereotyping too much to imply, as a few commenters did, that what women want in friendships is to talk about their feelings and emotions. Not all women want that, and even for those who do, they don’t want it all the time.
The only guy friends I can say are truly platonic are the ones where:
a. he’s gay
b. he’s married
c. we dated briefly and with little emotional investment. On the other hand, those friendships often don’t really develop because I don’t find that I have a lot of platonic interest in people I didn’t have much romantic interest in. If either party was really hurt, I agree with other posters– I have no interest in trying to be friends in that case because either I will get hurt or he will. You don’t need to be friends with everyone!
With guys where both of us are single and we never dated, either I’m secretly interested, or I suspect he’s secretly interested, or both. You can never really know with those, and I always feel some degree of tension. And the tension/potential is part of why I like those friendships
I think Evan got it right, that men and women CAN be friends, especially depending on the dynamic. I have been known to be jealous in the past, but looking back on those circumstances with my exes, it is obvious a lot of that had to do with RED flag behavior on their part and I should have just left instead of seething with jealousy, which is death for a relationship. What I had not fully realized until I met my current boyfriend is that Trust is the single most important thing in a relationship. When you have trust in your partner it is an entirely different ballgame. I don’t sit around wondering who he’s talking to or where he is all the time. This is especially important for us because he’s a male nurse at a larger hospital. A whole lot of his close friends are women. And his best friend is a girl 2 years younger than us with a great body. When I came into his life he almost immediately introduced me to his bff and we have a great relationship! He had had plans at one point to travel to Europe with his guy friend and when they fell through he went with her for 2 weeks. This did not cause any problems at all in our relationship because I TRUST him. He has described his relationship with his bff to me and he said he did find her attractive when they first met, but he didn’t try and anything and she didn’t either and they just became good friends. He now even finds her a little less attractive since he’s been with me (I know this isn’t BS cause we have zero qualms talking about who we find attractive with eachother). But I mean, for all those women out there who are worried and constantly wondering what their men are doing when they aren’t there, you need to decide if you know he cares about you and you trust him or not. And then just STOP trying to control him. It will not only benefit your relationship, but it will benefit YOU! Its such a headache worrying all the time and being sad and wondering what is wrong with you, when it isn’t necessary at all. Either he’s worth your trust or not. Also, if its hard to decide if he is or isn’t, he ususally isn’t. That’s all the advice I’ve got regarding female friends for now =) Best of Luck!
Funny marymary, I used to think they could when I was in my twenties and would argue with anyone who believed differently. With the newfound wisdom of marriage and hitting 30 (:P), I have come to believe otherwise except for a few exceptions. Not sure whether I have evolved or regressed, either. I had many male friends in my 20s and I loved their company. Girl friends are amazing but can be so complicated sometimes. Being friends with guys is very….liberating for the lack of a better word. I work in IT and especially at my first job it was much easier to make like-minded guy friends. I had some very good female friends but none were techie nerds…I had to befriend the guys for that. Those were some of the best years of my life. Looking back though, a one-sided interest always developed when both of us were single or had become single and we were close. In two cases, it was me. It didn’t start that way, of course, but it almost always ended up that way. I’m still friends with a few of these people today. We realized that we could be friends because one of the parties had absolutely no attraction for the other and so nothing would ever happen. In short, the “attractee” moved on. Some I am sort of in touch with but due to a latent attraction or a lack of real “moving on”, I wouldn’t say we are friends. They creep me out :S A couple I have cut off contact with due to unsavoury things that happened.
There were a few exceptions to this and those were as Evan and others have already mentioned: gay, in happy relationships or in one case an ex. I never got as close to the ones in happy relationships…they had no need for my emotional support and rightly so. We just enjoyed each other’s company and only hung out alone together when the girlfriend/wife was unavailable. I no longer speak to the ex…we just went our separate ways eventually.
The last exception was one where there was mutual attraction that built slowly and turned into marriage. When we met we were both taken and that allowed the friendship to build respectfully. We worked together and got to know each other without false pretences. You learn so much about people by working with them: their ethics, the way they treat others and they way they allow themselves to be treated. Subsequently, we both changed jobs, found ourselves single and in a life-changing conversation, decided to give it a shot.
The long and short of it is that men and women can be friends but if both are single, something generally develops on at least one side. If one of the two is gay, it can be a fantastic friendship. If one or both are in happy relationships or married, they probably won’t seek that kind of friendship anyway. I also think it has much to do with age. Opposite sex friendships develop more easily in college and just after. After that you have to go looking for them and if you’re in a committed relationship, why would you?
Both my husband and I have opposite sex colleagues we really like and get along with. I wouldn’t say they were close friends though. We hang out with these people during work hours or shortly after and that’s it. I will never again make the sort of guy friends I did in my 20s.
@girlfromthemidwest
I am sorry. I’m sure the friendships are innocent but I can see why it leaves you with doubt. If I were in your boyfriend’s shoes, I would reduce contact with these girls or see them mostly when I was with you to allay the exact fears you speak of: that you were the second choice. Maybe he already does this, in which case I wouldn’t worry. If he’s with you, it’s because he likes you and chooses to be but I agree that he is leaving himself open to temptation. If at some point, one of these girls changes her mind for whatever reason…begins to see him differently, has gone through a bad breakup, etc, will he be strong enough to say no? I really hope so.
I just realized I may not have added everything regarding female friends… Trust is key, but what it really means is that I don’t have to worry about who my boyfriend is friends with. We are both flirtatious people who prefer people of both sexes that we are friends with to be attractive. It isn’t a conscious effort on our part, but we usually wind up with relatively attractive friends. But just because I have an attractive male friend does NOT mean that I am going to cheat on my boyfriend! That’s just indicative of a crappy person. It doesn’t matter how attractive any friends are or how unattractive. If you have a cheater for a boyfriend he’s probably more likely to be banging the ugly chick that you aren’t even worried about! IMHO there are just way too many factors and too many different circumstances to make the broad statement that attraction will get in the way of every male/female relationship. It depends on who you are. I definitely don’t think it depends on whether or not you’re married though! In my mind, either your man is legit or he isn’t, I don’t care if you’re dating, engaged, or married… it doesn’t make it harder for a guy (or girl) who is going to cheat to do it! Attraction does break up some friendships, it has happened to me, but its silly to assume it happens with everyone.
@Sparkling Emerald and referring to Rose- “Deal with women the way they ARE, not how you think they “should” be. Many women ONLY want sex that part of a meaningful relationship, and feel USED to find out otherwise.” – I totally agree. There are ALL sorts of people out there. I am fine having casual sex if that is what I know it is going in. But if I have been dating someone and have had intimate moments with them and have made it obvious that I care and they reciprocate and then after sleeping together a few times they tell me they aren’t that into me.. that would hurt, maybe not a whole lot, but enough that I wouldn’t want to see them, esp since I still have feelings for them. Its also embarassing cause it probably means he wasn’t feeling any chemistry. On a side note, I have done all of those things to a guy before, so it isn’t just the guys. And my reasons were that I REALLY liked him, but the sex was awful and it took me about a month to realize we had very different beliefs.
Evan,
I personally feel that if set boundaries (as the female) and say that I don’t want to cross the friendship line unless you are sure you want a relationship with me. We had known each other for years. Grew up together. He had always wanted to cross the line. I knew what was at stake. It’s bad for friendships when romantic interest doesn’t work. I know he was very attracted. Most people who knew us said I’m his first love. Wasn’t just a “hookup”, nothing sexual happened.
I’m not going to go into everything that happened. I am trying to move on & forgive. It took me a few years to realize how bothered I was by the situation, but I’m now trying to explore my own feelings about it to move on. Even after the situation I tried to stay in contact with him, because I couldn’t believe what had happened and because it is really hard to end a friendship where your lives are intertwined. It also happened really abruptly. (We are classmates from a really small town). Even if it doesn’t feel like you still have feelings, you may not need to know that this person is marrying someone else. It’s not something you need to hear during a period of loss (death of parent, job loss). He knew my dad died (sent flowers). And yet felt the need to notify me personally before he married within a year of my dad’s death, even though all contact had pretty much ceased. Since marrying he’s friend requested me. I communicated that there will be no more contact. Not everything is innocent,and if he feels its purely innocent at this point… I find that insulting.
I don’t think you understand what my situation is. But anyone I’ve shared my story with says I don’t deserve what happened. And his actions are confusing. For me personally I’ve finally learned to accept that I will never understand, and trying to wastes my time.
It’s not a clear cut situation, but I believe that saying friends with a man serves the man more than the woman. I think a lot of it was/ is ego. For the chick, it bring up old hurts at the worst time.
And it’s probably preferable for me if my male friends aren’t attracted to me. I would honestly prefer it that way. It doesn’t sound like that is how it works though.=)
I don’t want to be friends with someone when that means it works in his interest, but is damaging to me. And that’s okay. It’s the right move. He’s not my guy, and he no longer deserves my friendship just because it serves him.
I try to take what I can use from your blog so far, I’ve been considering if I should buy products. I feel that teaching woment that if the man isn’t stepping up (MOVE ON) is a good move, and I believe that is what you advise. It helps to hear that. I’ve struggled to put it into practice in my life (at least with this situation), but that’s what led me here. Sometimes we repress stuff because we are unable to deal with it when it happens, and then the hurt impacts our decisions or ability to move on.
I don’t think that either of the points you gleamed from my “tale” relate to me. But it makes me skeptical of purchasing products from someone who snaps at people who bring up another side to think about.
@ Tom10 #16, actually on second thought I agree with you. If Girl from the Midwest’s boyfriend treats her well and everything is fine between them, there’s no point worrying about what might happen if the stars align a certain way. Now that I’ve thought of it, in my case, with the guy that wasn’t over his female friend, I didn’t dwell on that issue at all. I didn’t give it a minute of thought, until it walked up to me and stared me in the face. At that point, him not being over her resulted in his substandard treatment of me, which, combined with other factors, was reason enough to get out.
To the whole discussion started by Rose’s comment, yes I, too, would NOT want to be friends with a man that hurt me. I’m sure no one here would! But I’m not sure what Rose means when she says a man hurt her. I can only count one or two men that have really hurt *me*, and they most definitely do not want to be friends, so to me that’s not even an issue. Want to make one thing clear — not wanting to be in a relationship with me is not the same to me as hurting me. I don’t expect every man that comes into my life to want to stay with me forever. No woman is that awesome, not even I! lol
Also, I too am guilty of “dumping”(?) people after a few nights of fun, if by dumping you mean realizing that we won’t work as a couple and telling the person so. I’d say I’m on friendly terms with almost all of them. Maybe because they realize that my intentions were good and I had both their and my best interests in mind. We’ve all already been in bad relationships or marriages, why fall into that trap again just because you happened to have sex once or twice with the person.
Wanted to comment on people saying that they already have enough friends and don’t need more. As an older person (heh heh) I’ve made and lost many many friends in my life. I’ve lost friends each time I relocated, I lost friends after our kids grew up and no longer wanted to play together. I’m still shedding friends as a result of my divorce. Old friends that I’ve known since I came into this country, suddenly decide to disappear from my life. And that’s normal. Life goes on, people change; people that had common interests, suddenly don’t anymore. My point is, one can never say “I have enough friends and I won’t need anymore as long as I live”, because you don’t know how many you’ll have tomorrow. And, regardless of what I just said, if you meet a new person that you click with in a lot of ways and you both realize you want to spend time and do things together as friends, what, are you going to tell them that your friend positions are currently all filled up and you don’t accept any new candidates at this time? that’s just silly. There’s always room for one more, in my opinion. Of course no one goes around looking for new friendships, but they still happen to us anyway. Why turn them down?
Rose@34: I agree that the guy behaved in a thoughtless and hurtful manner. I don’t have anything to do with men I’ve had a romance with. They are always reaching out to me on FB or whatever, but I’m just “no way” about it. Sometimes they’re being passive aggressive, trying to punish me for breaking up with them (these are usually the nasty or insensitive ones, which is why I broke up with them), and they want to flaunt a new relationship or some kind of success or status or something. Sometimes they’re just emotionally clueless and don’t realize that I feel hurt because they stepped over the friendship line and it didn’t work out. (I don’t ever initiate with guy friends–it always comes from them.)
Here’s how I deal with some different scenarios in the guy-friend arena. If I get the impression that a guy friend is immature and wants to cross the friendship line because he’s merely curious or horny while he’s waiting for something better, then I don’t think much of him as a friend anymore, and keep my distance. If I think he’s really wanting to explore a relationship with me I spell out the risk for him in advance–I say that I don’t maintain contact with ex-boyfriends, so he’d better be sure he wants to see if a LT thing will work here. “After we have sex you can’t go back to being my brother,” is how I explain that one. (This scenario has only happened once, though.) Then there are guy friends that I can be F-buddies with, but they usually aren’t great friends, and eventually we go our separate ways.
I have to agree with Rose, Sparkling Emerald, and Anita, that trying to be friends with someone you dated who hurt you, is not a good idea. If you dated briefly and casually, and decide that a friendship makes more sense, nothing wrong with that, but if you’re dumped after an actual relationship by someone who then says they still want to be “friends”, that isn’t in a woman’s best interests, and can actually be bad for her self-esteem. In my experience, men say that, but it usually goes out the window once the guy meets someone else, or he is hoping you’ll stick around just in case he changes his mind. You may be civil, but it’s hard to actually be friends. Eventually maybe, it can work, but only after both parties have truly moved on to other things.
I, too, have had exes try to come back into my life, sometimes years later. And I wonder how much of it has to do with their own feelings of guilt or shame rather than a desire for any kind of real friendship.
Thumbs up to Ruby at 37.
Goldie # 35, not sure if you were referring to me, or someone else, but what I said was “I have plenty of female friends and I have all the friendship I need at this point in my life” I’m not sure who said ” “I have enough friends and I won’t need anymore as long as I live”, or if anyone said that, or anything resembling that. And if you gleaned from my comment that not seeking friendships with males means I never want another friend at all in my life, ever, ever, ever, then that is silly. And I think I explained quite clearly why I will limit my friendships to females or gay males. To me it’s not worth wrestling off unwanted sexual advances from men “friends” on the miniscule chance that a real platonic relationship could happen. I make friends with women quite easily. If i were to find myself with no women friends, I would seek out more women friends. Even my gay women friends don’t make unwanted advances, most of my male friends do.
Cheers Ruby, Sparkling Emerald and Anita.P.S. I still like men.
Sorry for my first sentence (that makes no sense) Can we just go ahead and blame Monday even though it was Friday.
It’s clearly emotionally charged for me, and I know it’s not the point of the post. Just offering a perspective from personal experience.
I don’t keep touch with exes either, except for this person who I thought cared about me (at least as someone who shared childhood and history together). It’s been really difficult to stop contact because it just feels like more loss. It is a loss, which is why it didn’t happen sooner. I didn’t have more loss on the agenda. Finally cutting off someone from Mayberry (lol) isn’t fun. (But I’m glad I did.)
That is one of my favorite dialogues from one of my favorite movies, When Harry Met Sally. RIP Nora Ephron.
@EMK, it sounds like you’ve got a system down that works for you. I laud you because I think that a lot of people go into marriage with the idea that nothing needs to change in regards to their relationships with the opposite sex. That seems incredibly naive to me and I think it’s important you build certain boundaries into your life so when your marriage goes through one of the inevitable low ebbs that you aren’t set up for temptation with your opposite sex friends.
The only flaw that I see in your system is being friends with old girlfriends. According to several commenters here, ex-boyfriends sometimes function as a “friend with benefits.” I would tend to think that would be less likely to happen if you are married and these women are ethical people whom you’ve stayed friends with, presumably, because you respect them. However, it’s your system, not mine.
When I was married, I really didn’t have any contact with old boyfriends so that wasn’t an issue. My spouse was friends with many women and didn’t mind me having male friends, which I also did. However, I was extremely careful to keep our discussions about business and never veered into personal territory, i.e. discussing our relationships. Still, now that I’m divorced, I found out that my ex did have a sexual relationship with at least one of his female friends. And even though I was very careful with my boundaries with my male friends, I think I might have offended some of my male friend’s wives because *they* weren’t comfortable with their husbands’ having female friends at all. I feel somewhat embarrassed about the latter, but it is just further underlies the transient nature of opposite sex friendships if you plan on marrying again.
I agree with Goldie #35 that, the older you get, you can never have too many friends. I think it is great to keep former boyfriends for networking and informational purposes. However, for me, it’s been difficult to maintain close friendships with former boyfriends (with the exception of those overseas) because of feelings on one side or the other. Once those feelings dissipate, I like it if they join my “tribe” (larger group of friends and acquaintances for networking or events) because there was always something I value that brought us together in the first place. It’s great to maintain some of that without a lot distress from either party. So far, I’ve partial successful doing that. I suspect things will get easier with that as time goes by and I get wiser about the men I date.
ANother category of male-female friendships ? Siblings, foster siblings or a man and woman (who may or may not be related by blood) having been raised together from childhood. Science has shown from anthropological studies that something about being raised together as children act as a repellent to the formation of sexual relationships. Probably natures way of preventing incest.
Most of my friends are women. The men who are my friends are in relationships and I know them through friendships with the women who are their wives or girlfriends. I never spend time with them alone as I feel it would be inappropriate and the women in their lives would agree.
I think that it is very difficult for straight men and women to be “just friends”. I agree that one or the other will probably be attracted if not both. While this adds a great little spice to the friendship it is also a recipe for someone getting hurt. Whenever I have tried to have a friendship with an unattached (straight) man it has eventually become awkward.
Years ago I was dating a guy who told me that he thought it was okay for people in a relationship to still continue to see friends of the opposite sex casually, such as a lunch date. I actually wasn’t too concerned about that because I didn’t feel threatened by any of his female friends. So I told him that was fine with me and I said that I was sure he would have no problem with me going out to lunch with a guy friend from time to time.
When I said that I could see him get that picture in his head of me having lunch with another man. His whole body posture changed, I swear I could almost see the hair on the back of his neck rise up. OMG it was so funny I had to stop myself from laughing out loud. I said, “Hmm, I see that would be a problem.”
He said, “Yes it would… I won’t be going out to lunch with any women.”
I said, “Okay.” We never spoke about it again, and we never spent time alone with friends of the opposite sex.
The only other instance where we had to have a discussion about other women and what might or might not be appropriate was when he was telling me about the kind of “joking” that was going on at work. He worked almost exclusively with women and he was a tall, handsome, manly man. To say he was popular with his coworkers would be an understatement. When he related to me the bantering that was going on between him and the women he worked with, I told him I was not comfortable with the sexual innuendoes and teasing that was happening. He told me that it was no big deal and that it was all in fun and just a way of passing time.
I said, “How would you feel if it was me joking like that with a man I worked with?”
Again I saw the light go on as he put the shoe on the other foot so to speak. He said, “I wouldn’t like it. It won’t happen again.”
I said, “Okay.”
@ Lia #43: if you and your boyfriend are both thin-skinned, then it works for you. If one of you was not, then one of you probably wouldn’t get it.
@ Androgynous @42: there’s probably a reason they say familiarity breeds contempt.
@ Those who say you can’t be friends with the opposite sex because they might hurt you, that just does not make any sense. You’re basically living your life in fear of what might happen. As if you’ve never been hurt by a friend of the same sex. Vivir con miedo, es como vivir a medias.
Ruby asked: (#2)
“As to point number 4, if you thought someone was a ‘narcissist’, ‘unstable’, ‘trashy’. or ‘sad’, why would you want to be friends with them?”
In general, I don’t. In some cases, the personality flaw is minor enough that being friends is not an issue. Dating her, however, brings the flaw to the forefront. That includes a friend who has anger issues. She’s never blown up at me, but I didn’t envy her on-again / off-again boyfriend … even though she’s really hot.
Or the reason may not be personality-related. I don’t date my coworkers (because office breakups are too complicated for my tastes), but I am still aware that a number of my coworkers are attractive women.
nathan said: (#4)
“Obviously, big age differences don’t always negate sexual attraction, but it clearly reduces the likelihood.”
I’m going to have to disagree with that. I don’t think people stop finding men/women in their 20s attractive once they reach their 40s, 50s and 60s. I was never interested in dating women 20 years younger than me, but I certainly enjoy looking at many of them.
Amy asked: (#3)
“I just have to ask you and any guy reading about your 2nd point. That guys can really sleep with someone they’re BARELY EVEN ATTRACTED TO… is this really true?”
It’s certainly true for some men. (I know a few.) I’m certainly capable of having sex with a woman who I only find to be of average physical attractiveness. (But I’m generally not motivated to unless I like her for other reasons also.)
Evan said: (original post)
“3) I’m in a satisfying relationship. [...] It’s generally a good idea to avoid putting yourself in tempting situations,”
The temptation isn’t a problem during a satisfying relationship. The problem arises when problems occur during that long-term relationship. A person’s incentive to resist the temptation decreases if there are significant relationship problems.
Any relationship troubles are going to increase greatly infidelity is added to the situation.
I am friends with members of the opposite sex. I find a number of them sexually attractive. Therefore, I try to ensure that I build habits so I’m not tempted if my wife and I hit a rough spot in our relationship.
Rose said: (#9)
“I don’t really see what the point is of trying to be friends with a woman you hurt or dumped. Especially if the guy hurt me, what does a friendship do for me?”
A lot of this is going to depend on how badly each person got hurt, and how quickly they bounce back from it. While you’re hurting, space can definitely help you move on. Once you’ve moved on (which, admittedly, some people never do), the space is no longer necessary.
About six years ago I was somewhat hurt when a relationship didn’t work out. I wasn’t badly hurt, because I’d never fully invested emotionally in the relationship (I’d had some misgivings too). But even after the breakup, she still had all the qualities that attracted me in the first place (bright, funny, common interests). Furthermore, I still trusted her.
Rose said: (#34)
“Even if it doesn’t feel like you still have feelings, you may not need to know that this person is marrying someone else.”
That particular girlfriend of mine felt guilty that I’d been hurt, and she felt relieved when I found someone else. While she didn’t need to know that I found someone else, she certainly appreciated knowing that I’d moved on.
There are lots of possible reasons (not all of them benign) for someone to let you know that he’d gotten married.
Rose said: (#34)
“It took me a few years to realize how bothered I was by the situation,”
Men don’t read minds. I find it probable that he remained clueless longer than you did.
Rose said: (#9)
“I think by acting like nothing ever happened it’s rather insulting.”
I’m not sure what you mean by that. My friendship with that woman is different than it was before (or during) our relationship. But there’s no “We used to date” drama when we’re around each other.
Why do you care whether a man still finds you attractive? Is it an ego thing?
Rose said: (#34)
“It’s bad for friendships when romantic interest doesn’t work.”
Lots of things are hard on friendships:
Marriage, having kids, moving, long hours at work, time-consuming hobbies, etc.
Are you going to avoid all of these things?
Friends move in and out of our lives. If you date a friend and it doesn’t work, you may end up losing that friendship for the rest of your life. Or it may work, and you may end up marrying a good friend. Or it may not work, and you may end up with a different type of friendship than you started out with.
Lia said:
“I saw the light go on as he put the shoe on the other foot so to speak.”
That’s a good way to self-check a situation. If I would be bothered if my wife did the same thing, I probably shouldn’t be doing it myself. In addition, my behavior with members of the opposite sex should be the same regardless of whether my wife is present. If it isn’t, maybe I need to alter my behavior.
My wife and I are active in the dance community, and regularly dance with other men and women. It’s likely that we’re not bothered by things that would bother you and/or your boyfriend. It appears that you and your boyfriend have reached the agreement that is right for you, just like my wife and I have reached an agreement that is right for us.
@ Karl R
Just to clarify… If I was active in a dance community I would not be bothered by my partner dancing with other women nor would I hesitate to dance with other men. I really don’t equate dancing with the kind of raunchy sexual innuendo and teasing that was going on. Of course maybe I am missing some important aspect of dancing.
I wasn’t threatened by him wanting to have lunch with a female friends either but the fact that HE would object to me doing the same with a male friend (an objection he hadn’t really been aware of himself until he really thought about it) made it seem right for us not to spend time alone with friends of the opposite sex. When I was eighteen I had a boyfriend that had one standard for me and one for himself. I don’t want to repeat that kind of relationship, I don’t find that appropriate or fair.
As far as the “joking” that was going on between him and his coworkers it was raunchy enough and escalating to the point where hearing about it felt uncomfortable. In my relationships I always try to remember that the other person is always doing their best and try not to be critical. I knew he didn’t think it was inappropriate or he wouldn’t have been doing it. I didn’t get angry or snippy, I simply asked how he would feel if the exact same conversations were happening between me and another man.
Now perhaps I was wrong in this, (my being wrong happens frequently much to my dismay) but it felt like that was disrespectful of me and our relationship. I am not saying that is what it was disrespectful, only that it FELT that way. I NEVER allowed anyone to be critical of him in my presence (much to his mother’s dismay). And I didn’t criticize him to others. I never engaged flirting or sexual banter with other men because it would have felt wrong to me and it would have felt like I was disrespecting him and our relationship.
I am not saying that it is wrong that others do that or that they are not loyal to their significant other if they do do that, but for me it doesn’t feel good.
Its difficult to be friends with someone you have some attraction towards but it is more likely women will have problems it.
A lot of women seem to create these fantasies and have expectations for the guy they are attracted to. When they get their bubble gets burst they end up resenting the guy for it.
As a guy on the otherhand, its pretty easy to seperate those feelings. You have been taught all your life to take rejection with a grain of salt and move on to the next woman.
I don’t really feel attracted to my person anymore. I do still feel hurt. I don’t feel like he maintained a real friendship with me, but only confuses me by staying in contact. I feel rejection is hurtful, and the whole situation was confusing. But it’s not helping me anymore to try to figure it out.
I do think I’m going to have to start getting tougher and dealing with rejection if I want my life to go in the right direction, but I’ve also seen the same guy react really badly when I rejected him. I’m not sure men are really better at it. I’ve seen him whine to other women when rejected. I don’t know.
I’m not an expert and I do not have the answers.
I just hope my next love interest goes a little better. I hope I’ve learned enough from the situation to have more success the next round!
I’ve dwelled too much on him. That much I do know. Sometimes you just have to accept that you will not get all the answers.
Would all the men agree that if you like a girl you make sure she knows it? Active pursuit or written off?
Thanks for writing this article. What I love about your words is that you focus on what TO do, what to focus on, and not what NOT to do.
When I was about 15, I moved to a new area in my city. I had a long walk from school, and suddenly new people to walk home with.
This is when I realized that a guy being my “friend” never actually liked me as a friend.
I’d start to wonder what they would do, watch, and by the third day of walking home, they’d invite me to their house, or accidently walk me to mine.
I wasn’t interested in anything more than hanging with the guy, and being 15 I was still quite a tom boy.
I didn’t flirt, or tell him he was cool even.
Again, later being 19, I found a new place to live on my own which was rented by guys.
One of them dated me, the other two had crushes on me.
Again, people thought of me as a free spirit.
I just didn’t want the same things as other people regarding marriage. I wanted relationship with commitment, and later even marriage, yet just not the same way as everyone else seemed to want…
My first and only real boyfriend, was my best friend. We’d been friends since high school, he’d come visit me after seeing his girlfriend.
She hated me. She spread rumors about me. I never made a move on him, nor did I tell him anything bad about her. I gave up on our friendship.
Then a year later we met and started dating.
Recently, after a three year negative and heart wrenching, relationship where my boyfriend not once, slept with his ex, but twice, then, after I set my boundaries, and many many conversations, and lists of what we wanted, positive things we loved about each other, decided to stay together, and then I found out he was going out with the new girl at work, who was just his friend. He wanted to learn to ice climb, and she could teach him. He didn’t want to learn with me, he wanted to go out and drink with her, and then because they were such good “buddies”. (She pretended to be one of the guys all the time to get free drinks etc…), he walked her home, and kissed her in front of our entire staff.
I gave up, they dated, but were just “friends” for six months.
I have not seen anyone who has ever had a “just friendship friend of the opposite sex”.
I have seen guys with friends, who had crushes on them, guys who have had crushes on the girl who had the hot boyfriend, and when she was bored, or lonely she went to the “friend” to hang out because she knew that he would be there…
My last experience was the all too crazy one. A guy who I met online.
I am pretty, quirky, down to earth, realistic, positive, and easy to get along with. I have read dating books, and studied human behaviors… but still can’t get a guy to fall in love with me, connect, or feel good enough to be with me for life.
I feel it is my language, that I don’t tell a guy that he’s the man, or how much I like him…
I start every relationship the same. Dating. I date, we flirt, they like me, they want to go on several more dates, they want to sleep with me, and while making out, I end the evening say within the first three dates, depending on where it is going… with I will sleep with you when we are exclusive.
Sometimes they agree, and say during mad passion, they want the same thing, and want to be exclusive with me… and find some other reason, (usually mothers who do not like me),
But this one, we met, he planned, we spent a few hours talking on the phone, we did something cool, and memorable, and I brought up a few questions while flirting of what I found attractive, including morals, respect etc…
By a month he was calling to see me weekly, go places, we’d go for walks, to the park, play, skip, eat out, and a couple of times we’d stay at his house and watch movies, make food and make out. We even went out of town together a couple of times, and shared events, and my birthday. I waited almost two months to sleep with him. I told him that I wouldn’t be interested in wasting my time if he didn’t want to get to know me, meaning that he needed to find out what made me excited and happy… etc. We got along great, we hugged when we saw each other, we talked about important things, and wants in our lives… which were similar… but when we slept together, something happened. He said he couldn’t be in an exclusive relationship because his ex the mother of his child, threatened him with having any rights to see his daughter, and had taken her away several times without telling him.
By then we’d invested some few months together, and I told him I didn’t want to waste my time, so we decided we would just date and see where it went from there with out sleeping together.
It became harder and harder because we spent a lot of time together. He’d get jealous of me continuing to date other guys, and it seemed like he got insecure of my feelings for him, but he told me he couldn’t be exclusive… so I said no sex.
Then his ex wanted him back, they got back together for two weeks, after he and I had our first arguement. We were planning a trip together with his daughter. He bailed. I got upset at the lack of respect, and told him so.
He called me, apologized for being so hard on me, and for what he’d put me through, and told me it was over with her.
Then we saw each other less, but weekly. For dinner, movies, coffee, talk discussion of boundaries, etc.
One day we had seen each other almost every day that week, I had slept over at his house, we held hands, kissed, and after saying that I didn’t want to hear about his ex other than that she dropped off his daughter, he told me that he only found me sexually attractive. He was only “hanging out with me that whole time”, and that there was nothing more.
Then he said he’d met someone else. He was seeing both of us at the same time.
A week later, I asked him to drop off my stuff, he could leave it at my door. He got angry at me for simply asking him to take me home, not arguing with him, or convincing him to stay with me…and said I was losing out on being friends with him.
It took him two weeks to bring me my stuff, but had to do it when I was home, even though I insisted he could leave the stuff outside my door. She had “broken up with him because he wouldn’t sleep with him, ” he said, although I thought to myself yeah she listened to her instincts… he ended that one with a long, drawn out hug… :(
He continued to call me every week, or message me online. Not to have me back, but just to go out. I told him, that if he wanted to date me, exclusively, that would be great, but that I wasn’t interested in being just friends, because I had feelings for him.
After another week he messaged me to “talk”. WE went out for a couple of drinks, and skipped back home after him telling me he thought I was beautiful. I said thank you, but you see, he had told me that his ex was beautiful, and all beautiful girls got everything they wanted. And guys just did what ever they wanted when they demanded it…
He tried to be positive when he spoke of her, but even his friends said she was mean, put him down and constantly made him feel bad for not serving her, and that she spoke in a mean way and was rude even to their daughter.
I had never been told I was beautiful. So here he was telling me i was, and all I could think was I wish someone would see me as beautiful on the inside.
We ended up in a fight that night, over him telling me I wasn’t trustworthy, (his fears of how he’d treated me), and then when I cried, he told me I was jealous, and dramatic because i was crying. He then told me how he’d had his “slut” days, and then when I didn’t say anything mean back, he told me that’s why he could never be with me, because he couldn’t make me happy.
End of story. He felt that he couldn’t make me happy because I didn’t give him more than a thank you at the end of our dates, and an occasional you’re great, etc etc.
I didn’t chase him, I didn’t even call him unless he called me… because I was too worried that he’d think I was needy. Which i wasn’t. I just liked him. I let him be him, we had fun, and always ended with some passion, smiles, and hugs, and kisses… But he wasn’t feeling like he could make me happy.
After that, he called me to talk about our fight. I wrote him an email telling him how he made me feel, all positive, that nobody could make any one happy, just happier, and since he hadn’t even asked what made me happy, I tried to tell him the things he did that made me happy. I told him he could tell me too.
When we met to talk all i got was that he didn’t want a relationship. I said, “with me”> I get it. I asked him if he’d read my email. He said no.
When he dropped me off he said he just wanted it the way it used to be, where we had fun. I got out of the truck, squeezed his hand, and replied with, ” I shared myself with you because I had feelings for you, I want to share fun, and romance with someone who wants to be with me.”
He said he’d call me the next day. I said read my email, you probably won’t want to.
So time went by, and he continued to contact me online. flirty messages. I became sick just before the holidays, and after new years, he messages me with, “hey friend”…. ”I am concerned about you. Give me a ring.”
By then, I’m wondering why is he still calling me?????? I didn’t answer a few of his messages, I stayed offline for a while. Then I realized that he told me to call him… it didn’t make sense.
I responded with if he was concerned he would have called. He replied with something about his phone dying. (Happened the night of our fight over a month before. I had already given him my number by text after his phone died.)
And I responded with you already told me that. you have my email, and (my phone number by all the pictures I’d sent him of us by phone), and he knew where I lived.
I realized that maybe he was trying to get together to talk, and sent him another, (I”m too nice), message to say hope he’d had a nice Christmas.
I haven’t heard back from him, so I guess I learned how to lose a guy over and over and over again. I was honest, up front, and repeated myself. I only kept seeing him, because he’d tell me that he wanted to talk, or go for a walk… meaning he wanted to tell me something. But nothing would come of it, so, I gave up. I told him I had some not so great things happen to me and was dealing with them and needed a hug…I wish to be with people who want to share life with me, and truly care about me. It wasn’t anything about him, but I did want to be around people who cared, not people who just said they did, but who didn’t even save my number, or memorize it, or come by the house (which is five minutes away) to see if I was ok.
It’s kind of like when you care about someone so much, because you are connected, even though he says you aren’t and wants someone else…
Guys and girls easily hook up and become friends, and friends with benefits, but if you want a serious long term relationship, you and he, as a team, come first.
Thanks for all of your posts. They do help make sense of things when it’s so hard to figure out what is happening in situations of love.
Ala
Maybe spend more time being selective.
You say you will sleep with them when you’re exclusive. Are you sure YOU want to sleep with them and be exclusive after just three dates?
Staying with someone after they have cheated on you several times isn’t having boundaries. I’m afraid that the words that come out of your mouth mean nothing if you can’t follow it up with actions (ie kick him to the kerb).
You say you don’t want to be just friends with someone, then carry on being just that.
You continue to see someone who isn’t over his ex. You saying you won’t do that, and then doing it, is not the same as having boundaries.
I got very confused reading your comment so I can only guess at what it must be like living it.
While men and women can be friends, this is all too jacked up.
All kinds of men will come your way. Men who aren’t over the ex. Men who cheat. Men who don’t seem to know what they want. Men who say they can’t make you happy. Men with mysteriously dying phones. Men who don’t want a relationship. Men whose mothers don’t like you (how old are y’all?). You don’t have to keep an open door policy to the lot of them. And yes, good men who are ready for a relationship will come your way too, but not while you’re paying so much attention to all of the above.
Mind you, are you sure you know what YOU want? Cos until you do, this is kinda par for the course.
Love your four point check! It totally makes sense. It’s also interesting to learn that men do not strike up friendships with women in the first instance, unless there is some degree of attraction on their part.
I have a lot of male friends and nothing physical other than a hug ever transpired between us! We met on dating sites and I was just upfront with the “not taking it to another level” chat. That said, they seem relieved to have someone to call up for a movie or walk or pizza w/o the dating hangover situation in an unspoken agreement.
1) I don’t need sex that badly to jump a male FRIEND 2) I have a trustworthy male opinion when I need it. This is SO worth it.
Also not in my habit is to STAY FRIENDS with former lovers or boyfriends. Once for me the physical intimacy occurs, I just can’t backpaddle and be their friend again. Doesn’t mean I don’t like them, I just can’t reverse the roles when there are some other people that just are friends w/o emotional attachment as in fmr lover. Icky.
I have a lot of male acquaintances due to shared hobbies but none that I would say are close friends…I tend to be close friends with women. Some are attracted to me, while I don’t think the others are. I am friends with a former semi-fwb (I say semi since we never actually slept with each other just fooled around) That somehow worked out itself..When I was ready to cut him off, he started behaving better than ever. But I know that if I wanted to sleep with him he wouldn’t give it a second thought. That doesn’t bother me since now I only see him as a friend and nothing more. I told him this too and have kept in practice. I think it works for us because we hardly see each other so I never feel any sort of resurfaced attraction towards him. I think it would be an issue if he was a close friend who I saw regularly.
I’m still in touch with some men I dated years ago but I don’t hang out with them since they don’t live in the area. Looking back I don’t think if our break ups happened now I would have stayed in touch. It was sort of forced through my habit of trying to make things ok and let bygones be bygones… But since they were so long ago, and I’ve moved past any feelings I don’t feel any need to go back and to cut them off now. They were wrong for me but I like them as acquaintances.
On another note, I agree with Mary @50–boundaries are in what you do more than what you say. And you don’t need to feel obligated to keep an open door policy. I wanted to stay in touch with my last ex since we were friends before going out, I was hoping we could still be friends after it ended. I had told him I wanted to stay in touch but my actions said otherwise. I realized despite having the space, I didn’t feel comfortable doing so. So I keep him out of my life now,, rather than trying to “make things work” and complicated, I rather place my feelings first. It really showed me that some people aren’t meant to stay in your life forever and some shouldn’t be allowed to enter it all. make sure you know what you want. Otherwise you’ll settle for anything and likely to be hurt.
Great advice Rochelle & the hard lesson I’ve learned from the whole situation. I honestly feel so much more empowered from what others have shared as well. That is absolutely why I stayed in touch, to make the best of the situation & let bygones be bygones & to make things ok. He has tried to see me but I refused (we have never “hooked up”, so I know he can’t expect that). I felt over it. It just flared up because I was going through painful stuff…. I didn’t forsee this risk of not blatently saying NO MORE CONTACT.
Marymary: thank you. I fully agree with you. I set boundaries and expect them to be heard, and followed. What I’ve learned is that people do not always hear or listen or respect your boundaries. Or understand. It’s learning how to put them forth that is the hard part. This is where I saw a blog that Evan wrote and started reading. It has helped immensely.
With the ex who kept going back to his ex, I set the boundaries and left him. Yes it took two tries.
With the last relationship and all of my relationships I have waited to sleep with them. i need to feel safe and do not want to waste my time befriending anyone just to have “someone” and another ” someone” who i probably wont remember, in and out of my life. I want memories with one special person that i enjoy spending my time with where we can both be happy being with each other , being who we are.
The last one said he heard my boundaries, but then acted like he didn’t. I mirrored him. I did not call him, or message him. I stopped having fun with him when he said he wanted to be friends. I stopped going out withhim and asked for my stuff back.
I know what I want and am not afraid to ask for it. I am quite selective and don’t fall into relationships with just anyone. Even though I gave the cheater too many chances, I definitely stood up for myself while he put me down and tried to make me feel like it was my fault he cheated.
It took me a while to learn what to do and after i left i suddenly realized that i wanted someone who could be my real friend.
I explain it like this: not A friend, or any friend, chum, buddy, pal, aquaintence, but my best romantic friend, a different kind of friendship that is made by two people in love. The love and respect come first. The courtship, The finding out about each other, the life long curiousness about one another, the intimacy and connection, and understanding that comes from love. Pure love. Love with out restrictions. With no need to harm one another. This is a relationship with friendship and I believe it can exist. ( anyone know the 8 stages of a relationship?)
I’m loyal and I act with morals… but so far I have believed that what Men say is what they mean (women too) and have learned that they need to show it. How to encourage this is where i spent my wasted time… It feels like I have to stand up for myself and maybe a lackof being able to be vulnerable causes this but at least I have learned. :)
When my partner said he just wanted to be friends after dating for five months, i calmly thought for a minute, got up and said,”no thank you.”
I asked for my stuff back and told him to call me only if and when he is interested in being exclusive and treating me with respect.
He would call. I’d let it go to voice mail. Then he’d text saying he wanted to talk. I’d ask him what he wanted, or tell him no not unless he was interested in dating me exclusively. Again. Finally, after the final mssg. A month later he realized i was serious and meant what i said. Friends aren’t interested, have feelings for, or sexual attraction to or hold hands and cuddle tell you that you are beautiful, stare into your eyes or kiss or talk about your future together… A friend doesn’t pick you up and take you out for dinner and take you home. I told him i wanted to have a man around that SHOWS he cares and wants to share his life with me. Someone special is who i spend my time with and have fun adventures with.
Yes I was a little too innocent believing that all others hear and believe what you say is what you mean. Your actions must show what you say. Yes a 34 year old man withdrew from our relationship because of fear or whatever, tried to keep me around for his benefit as “friends”. And finally when he messaged me to say he was concerned about me, I plainly told him for the 400th time that he didn’t show it and I would like to spend my time with people who do. He got it. Thanks again.
I have at present two male platonic friends, both never married. One is 41 and the other about 63. I love them both, both are into their spirituality, but still and all I can tell by little hints and other indicators that they wish I were interested in them romantically.
Right or wrong I stick with them and just ignore the occasional signal. Luckily I seldom see them face to face, maybe 1-2x/year.
My most successful platonic friends have been gay men but I no longer am in touch. Both were named Mike and one was super gay and the other was macho mostly.
AS said: (#51)
“It’s also interesting to learn that men do not strike up friendships with women in the first instance, unless there is some degree of attraction on their part.”
I wouldn’t say that men don’t strike up friendships with women whom we’re not attracted to. In my own experience, I do occasionally strike up such friendships. I’m a lot less likely to initiate them, however.
For the friendships where there is no attraction, there is always some mutual interest which connects us.
AS said: (#51)
“Looking back I don’t think if our break ups happened now I would have stayed in touch. It was sort of forced through my habit of trying to make things ok and let bygones be bygones…”
I think some people try to be friends after the fact because they want to “prove” that they’re mature enough to be friends with an ex. To me, that’s not a good enough reason. (It certainly doesn’t make it worth the effort.)
If you share the same social circle, however, that’s a strong incentive to be civil to each other, to be friendly and even to remain friends (if both of you are so inclined). If you can’t do that, then one of you is going to have to abandon that social circle as part of the breakup.
Karl R (#57) thank you for your comments, the point I was making was that it was interesting to learn from the study that:
“Men, on the other hand, more frequently replied that sexual attraction was a prime reason for initiating a friendship”
@AS Note that there are not a lot of specifics about the study. We are reading a second hand account from Psych today saying that this was the prime motivater “frequently” That could mean 30% of the time.
These were all ‘professional men’ and women with a small sample size and less than 2/3 reports sexual tension at all. So about all you can say is amongst 75ish professional men, a significant fraction initiate friendships because they are attracted. Generalizing this to all men or all (or even most) male-female friendships is a major extrapolation.
@marymary (#50)
“And yes, good men who are ready for a relationship will come your way too, but not while you’re paying so much attention to all of the above.
Mind you, are you sure you know what YOU want? Cos until you do, this is kinda par for the course.”
Wow. So well put (especially the first statement)!
Evan makes this point elsewhere – while you’re busy pursuing relationships of type X, you won’t be getting relationships of type Y.
We get from people what we accept. We have to first “know ourselves” and be comfortable and confident in that, in our boundaries, and how we enforce them. Otherwise we are unable to remove from our lives those people who would provide the wrong kind of relationship (i.e. type X).
@ AS #58
“Men, on the other hand, more frequently replied that sexual attraction was a prime reason for initiating a friendship”
Note the qualifier – “more frequently”…I assume they mean “men more frequently than women replied that sexual attraction was a prime reason for initiating a friendship”.
In other words, it’s not been stated that sexual attraction was the prime reason for (many/most/some) men to initiate friendships, just that it was more common among men than women.
Not that I’m trying to say that what Harry said to Sally isn’t true – actually I’ve quoted that scene many times myself. It’s just the conclusions made by this study aren’t that clear (or at least the wording is less than unambiguous).
Otherwise, I second everything Evan has said – us guys (generally) will have sex with a woman whom we find even slightly attractive, given the opportunity/circumstance. Karl covered it well with the hamburger analogy! And that (from my experience, and observing coworkers and friends), we generally make friends with women whom we find attractive, in some way.
I think it´s nearly impossible to be just friends after relationship. But I´m just talking about my own experiense. I quess if both of you have lost the sexual interest to one another, then it would be possible.
I agree with markdice 61 about friendship AFTER a relationship.
However, I think men and women could be friends as long as no one has ever acted on the attraction.
I think it’s safe for women to assume that if a straight man maintains a friendship with her, there is some level of attraction. I’m not sure if it’s true the other way around though: I don’t think men should assume a woman is attracted to him if she maintains a friendship with him.
Is it really that big a deal if men and women find each other attractive. It,s not like we,re obligated to act on it.
marymary, it’s not about being “obligated” to act on our attractions. I am not “obligated” to eat a big piece of chocolate cake, so I wouldn’t keep it in the house, since I am watching my weight. Being friends with a guy I’m attracted to, to me is like keeping cake and candy in my house constantly, and resisting the temptation to eat it. If it’s the other way around, and it’s the guy who is attracted to me, in my experience, they will attempt to act on it. That’s why I personally only care to be friends with gay men. I understand that others do things differently, but in this incarnation of being single, I personally have decided to not have a friend zone. Not only am I not “obligated” to act on attractions (that aren’t mutual), I am not “obligated” be in a friends with benefits situation either. (or even without benefits)
I think it depends on how attractive is the woman. Extremely attractive younger women might find it almost impossible.
What marymary said. If I couldn’t resist acting upon every physical attraction I feel, I’d be afraid to leave the house. Then again, I can keep chocolate cake in the house and not eat the whole thing in one sitting. I’d say, we all know ourselves and our weaknesses, so if we see we cannot resist an attraction to an opposite-sex friend, maybe it’s best to phase out the friendship. Same thing if you sense that the friend cannot resist an attraction to you. Otherwise, just go ahead and be friends.
Karl R- my point is that mostly this person who acted this way isn’t really my friend. Why do I have to pretend he is? Trust is important in friendship. If you hurt someone and are aware of it, everything doesn’t have to be okay dokey because he doesn’t want to admit something happened & wants everything to seem hunkey dorey. He isn’t letting me know he had gotten married, he told me before. I congratulated him, I know this person isn’t for me & I genuinely want him to be happy. I don’t think I would know someone for so long and care about him, and not want him to be happy. I just think telling me is odd, thoughtless and possibly cruel. I don’t think its’ a nice happy thing to do to someone who put their heart on the line at one point, and is still grieving the death of a parent. I feel like it’s something done with the intent to hurt (again). It doesnt’ strike me as an innocent act, and I know him. I don’t think he’s clueless that he hurt me. I did the “why” thing for a while. At one point in talking to him I said I was sorry for how I had reacted. He had nothing to say, except he is glad I’m telling him this. I guess he thinks all blame is mine, (it really isn’t). I’ve tried to get answers from him. It didn’t work. Instead he has badmouthed me for asking.
I think the situation happened without giving a future a real chance. If valued a friendship with me, he would have tried to make things work after he crossed the line. Or he wouldn’t have crossed it.
The remaining details of what happened between me and some man are not something I would want to share with the internet or strangers.
Rose said: (#34)
“It took me a few years to realize how bothered I was by the situation,”
Men don’t read minds. I find it probable that he remained clueless longer than you did.
I thought I was over it. I had no expections of reuniting ever. As mentioned I know he knew he hurt me because of my looking for why. However I never dealt with my feelings about what happened until grieving my dad. Mostly because it happened traumaticlly (publicly & abruptly). That is really what I meant. We hadn’t had any contact for several years, so I’m engaged was rather out of the blue.
I personally always thought there was some not letting go in all the contact through the years. That’s what I thought (and I still wonder about why he wants to continue some contact). I’ve let go now. I’ve told him to stop contacting me. I just don’t think that keeping contact is an innocent act (with a first love who you grew up with).
No one is required to agree with me. But I do get to do what is best for me at this point, and that means realizing this person isn’t my friend.
Friendships after relationships will be tough if there are hard feelings or continued attraction from one party. My ex-husband and I are still friendly. However there’s zero hard feelings and zero attraction, so this is quite doable. For the most part, in this thread I think we’re talking about friendships where one or both parties feel some attraction, but no romantic relationship has yet (or ever) taken place.
In those relationships, I think that if one is feeling like they’re “resisting temptation” every time they socialize, then it definitely is better to phase out the relationship. But if the relationship has low-levels of attraction and/or one of the parties has no problem resisting or sending off the RIGHT signals so that the other person knows the boundaries, then it can work. I find that if I’m having man troubles, men are more accurate about what’s going on than your women friends may be, simply because they know how men think and should behave. If you have really good men friends, they’ll tell you when you’re being nuts…and they can be amazingly supportive if you ask them for help in the right way. It’s really good to have a straight-male perspective on relationships.
I think it gets tricky when one party seeks out a friend of the opposite sex to soothe his/her shattered ego after a romantic relationship with someone else goes bust. Then sometimes the need to feel validated/soothed trumps the friendship and that’s when it gets messy…and unfair.
Moral of the story is only talk about dating troubles with an opposite-sex friend who is not in the least attracted to you or whom you are not in the least attracted to, imo. Or you just have to have the self-control to not take advantage of any physical commiseration that may be offered, unless you’re ok with risking the friendship. Basically, be aware of why you are seeking out *this particular friend* for commiseration. Is it an excuse to start something? If yes, it’s ok. Just don’t lie to yourself and just be aware of your own motivations.
1) That every guy who hooks up with you is hurting you. There are many women who enjoy fooling around and also agree that just because two people aren’t meant to be a couple, she shouldn’t have regrets about a few nights of fun. Stop playing the victim. And stop assuming that foreplay is a promise of a relationship.”
o.O
EMK, it’s been awhile since you’ve written something that had me absolutely staring openmouthed from … disbelief.
Whether or not Rose is hurt by a man’s actions is not an “assumption”. This isn’t a logical theorem. She’s telling you how she <i>feels</i>.
“There are many women who enjoy fooling around”
Be that as it very well may, Rose just told you she isn’t one of them.
Any man who, when a woman tells him “I feel X” comes out with ‘You *shouldn’t* feel that way” gets an automatic side-eye, no matter how famous and well-regarded his blog. Nobody has the right to telll another person how to feel.
m- I’m glad you spoke up, I was left a little open mouthed to. I doubt that this comment will make it past moderation but here goes. Not only was I shocked at the callousness of his comment, but I’m shocked since EMK is basically using this blog as a gateway to try and sell his date coaching. Sorry, but now I wouldn’t even dream of buying his system. First he tells us women that we should deal with men the way they ARE, but women tell him how we ARE, he basically says we shouldn’t be that way. Which is why I now only read dating advice for entertainment and laughs. Even tho the advice seems to contradict each other, the underlying message, weather the date “expert” is a male or female, is that men are the way they are, and NOTHING will make them change (one thing that stand out, is that the disappearing male trick seems to be standard operating procedure), and that women are supposed to contort their basic natures into a pretzel to accomodate, please, influence men etc. Also, after getting back into the dating jungle, after being out of it for 25 years, I have noticed that post sex revolution men really ARE the way they are, (much more calloused and way more commitaphobic then before) and after taking a long hard look at the way I am, I am taking a break from men. True, women can’t expect men to change, but I’m in my late 50′s and I’m not changing either. If I can’t be part of a couple, I’m not going to settle for having “a few nights of fun” with a string of random men who don’t care how I feel. I’d rather go out and have REAL fun with my female friends. I never have regrets after that kind of fun, and I never feel used.
Men don’t choose women because you’re taller, smarter, richer, funnier or more sophisticated. Men choose women because you listen to them, provide empathy and support and affection – none of which he really gets from his guy friends.
Sparkling
i think you may have latched onto one thing that evan says without looking at the overall msg. The above is taken directly from his response to the OP. I find it immensely cheering. I nodded along to it. My boyfriend tells me often that he finds my presence encouraging and reassuring. that is special to him, and not something he can just go pick up at the bar.
there is a difference in men and women that more men can separate sex from emotion more easily. And I expect that around our age we are bumping up against men who have had a lot of practice at that! The advice on this blog is, don,t sleep with him until he,s your boyfriend,assuming a boyfriend is what you want. Excellent advice. Men are like this, this is how you deal with it. not by expecting them to turn down casual sex but by waiting until you are sure his intentions are serious. He might still disappear if you wait x months, but the odds are dramatically reduced.
i don,t see the inability to separate sex from emotion an achievement, I don,t think it makes me uptight or weak or irrational. If someone else can, good luck to them but it says nothing about me. here,s a generalisation about women. We tend to internalise things too much, a careless comment on a blog (maybe even this one), a survey in a paper and we are all “this says x about me, how dare they?!”. I say, this is interesting or not, but who I am and what i think of myself doesn’t change unless I choose that. You don,t have to buy into someone,s msg one hundred percent, you can take away what works for you.
What I am able to do is separate physical attraction from the act of sex and from my emotions and ego. To me, physical attraction simply adds sparkle to the interaction. I feel no need to act on it. that doesn’t make me frigid, and it doesn’t make others oversexed. If I don,t find it sparkly but fraught and difficult, I am free to opt out and don,t have to explain that to strangers on the internet.
you may enjoy evan,s videos. Blogs tend to get overheated but the videos are fun and reassuring. no I,m not on commission . I don,t have a dog in this fight but sometimes we do have to consider something different if we want different results. In other words, we have to change. I,m in my late forties and don,t consider my personal development to have halted. i meet up with women older than me and am struck by how open we are to change. I changed myself. It didn.t change any men but it changed my choices so I picked a far better man than any of the previous.
m said: (#69)
“[Rose is] telling you how she feels.”
Really? Read what she said more carefully.
Rose said: (#9)
“I don’t want to be friends with men who hurt me”
“I don’t really see what the point is of trying to be friends with a woman you hurt or dumped.”
“Especially if the guy hurt me,”
Rose wasn’t describing how she felt. She was describing men’s actions. That difference is as clear as the difference between an adjective and a verb.
SparklingEmerald said: (#70)
“women tell him how we ARE, he basically says we shouldn’t be that way.”
Rose (#9) wasn’t describing how she is. She was inaccurately describing how men are.
When I ask a woman on a date, it’s not with the goal of hurting her. When I have sex with a woman, it’s not with the goal of hurting her. When I break up with a woman, it’s not with the goal of hurting her.
Women have broken up with me. Most of them have done it as nicely as possible. Despite their best efforts, I sometimes felt hurt. That’s the way dating is. People can either grow up and deal with dating the way it is, or they should avoid dating until they’re mature enough to handle it.
What Karl said.
m - you’re a broken record. Men are always wrong. Women are always innocent. If I ever tell a woman she has to take responsibility, you tell me that the problem is men.
If Rose gets hurt by men who have sex with her but aren’t sure if they want to commit, then ROSE shouldn’t have sex without commitment.
If Rose can’t handle being friends with a man after having sex, then ROSE shouldn’t be friends with him.
Are you suggesting that NO women can have sex without commitment and that NO women can remain platonic friends afterwards?
Or are you suggesting – more likely – that ALL men should KNOW that they want to commit if they sleep with you and that ALL men should take responsibility for NOT being platonic friends with you afterwards, under the presumption that you can’t handle it?
No matter how you slice it, your take always makes men wrong and absolves women from personal responsibility for what they can handle.
My advice gives women power and control.
Oh, and SparklingEmerald?
You aren’t my intended client anyway. I don’t do well with victims who demonize men and make them wrong in every way. Nor do I do well with people who contradict themselves within the space of one paragraph:
“First he tells us women that we should deal with men the way they ARE.. the underlying message, weather the date “expert” is a male or female, is that men are the way they are, and NOTHING will make them change.”
Yep, that’s my message all right. And apparently we agree, since you said:
“Also, after getting back into the dating jungle, after being out of it for 25 years, I have noticed that post sex revolution men really ARE the way they are”.
So what exactly have I done wrong here? I told you the truth. You validated my truth. And you’re coming to my website to shoot the messenger of that truth?
Good stuff. As long as we’re clear on that.
We weren’t having sex. There is a whole other post of Evans that talks about both men and women not wanting to stay in touch after rejection. We had the talk. We were boyfriend/ girlfriend.
I tried to stay friends with this person. As one person to another I care about him. I honestly want what is best for him. It’s just come to my attention that knowledge of his life (friendship) is no longer in my best interest. It’s beneficial for him to stay friends. It doesn’t benefit me, so I’m not doing it anymore. I’m confident that I’m not alone in that what happened with someone I care about from the past still impacts me.
You don’t just do whatever you want and expect a relationship/ friendship to sustain. If you know someone is hurt and you want any kind of relationship to sustain, you probably have to do something (in grade school we learned to say “sorry” at the least).
Do Evan and Carl stay in contact with everyone they feel hurt them? Do they feel its’ a friendship?
If you can’t handle being friends, Rose, don’t be friends. Sometimes, I remained friends with exes. Sometimes, I didn’t. That doesn’t negate what I just said or what I said in #10. Just cause you can’t handle it in this situation doesn’t mean other women can’t and it doesn’t mean that men who don’t want to be with you are bad in any way.
Does it seem to me like the men are badmouthing a little? Maybe they don’t like to be called out on how their behavior effects us?
It just strikes me as defensive.
@ Sparkling,
“I’d rather go out and have REAL fun with my female friends. I never have regrets after that kind of fun, and I never feel used.”
Wow, if you’ve never felt used or betrayed by your female friends, you’re a luckier person than I am!
My take on this is, I see my friends, and people in my life in general, as human beings, rather than males and females out of whom I expect typical male or female behavior. Some humans are fun, some are boring. Some are loyal, some are flakes, some are backstabbers. A few people are straight evil. So stay away from those, there’s not that many of them around anyway. Some harbor unfriendly thoughts while pretending to be your friend, believe me this isn’t something that only happens in opposite-sex friendships. If they act on it, and it gets in way of your friendship, then don’t be friends with them. Otherwise, if they don’t do anything to hurt you and your friendship, then I don’t see a problem. The way I approach this whole thing is, I just try to keep the good humans in my life, regardless of their gender, and cut the bad ones out of my life, regardless of their gender. Works for me so far. If you feel something different works better for you, feel free to do it.
If anyone’s badmouthing here, it’s women badmouthing men. My suggestion that all men aren’t bad isn’t defensive; it’s factual.
Rose asked: (#74)
“Do Evan and Carl stay in contact with everyone they feel hurt them?”
In the past 7 years, I’ve had at least four girlfriends break up with me in one way or another. With three, I felt hurt. With one, she clearly felt hurt too.
I don’t feel that the women hurt me. I feel that the breakup hurt me.
When I decide to enter a relationship, I realize that it might end painfully. I choose to accept that risk as a possible consequence.
By accepting my own choices in the sequence of events that led to the breakup, I can’t claim that I’m the victim of my ex-girlfriend’s actions (unless they actually did something worse than break up with me).
Of those four women, one did not remain in contact … presumably because she found it too painful. (If either person finds it too painful to remain in contact, I recommend giving each other enough space until the pain fades … provided the specific situation allows.)
One woman moved over 1,000 miles away. We made no effort to remain in touch after that point.
Rose asked: (#74)
“Do they feel its’ a friendship?”
I’m friends with the two I’m still in contact with. (I would describe the other two as “friendly” the last time I saw them.)
Rose said: (#74)
“If you know someone is hurt and you want any kind of relationship to sustain, you probably have to do something (in grade school we learned to say ‘sorry’ at the least).”
All of the women said “I’m sorry…” as they were breaking up. (The one who broke up by vanishing said “I’m sorry…” the first time she saw me after disappearing.)
For you, it’s the least the men have to do. For me, it’s the most the women have to do. Even if I’m still hurting, she doesn’t have to keep apologizing repeatedly.
I get the feeling you expect a lot more than “I’m sorry,” from the men who break up with you and wish to remain friends.
Rose asked: (#76)
“Does it seem to me like the men are badmouthing a little?”
Look at the way I discuss and relate to the women who broke up with me. Look at the way you discuss and relate to the men who broke up to you.
I’m trying to describe the differences objectively, but it’s taxing the limits of my wordsmithing ability to do so in a way that doesn’t sound “bad.”
After reading through the posts, I’m very glad none of my male friends are attracted to me. It definitely does make things much easier.
EMK – My point was that Rose told you she was hurt, and you told her she made an assumption. That’s non-acceptance of who she IS. No one “assumes” they were hurt. People KNOW if they were hurt or not, no need to assume. Even if the other person didn’t hurt them INTENTIONALLY, doesn’t mean the person still wasn’t hurt. Women are supposed to accept that men can have sex and it doesn’t mean a thing to them because that’s the way men ARE. Many (maybe even most) women can’t take sex so lightly (that oxytocin thing or whatever) that they feel completely unscathed when it’s over, because that’s they way they ARE. Just because you feel she shouldn’t be hurt (or you think the man didn’t purposefully hurt her) doesn’t mean she is “assuming” she is hurt. She was hurt. That’s the she IS. And she should be accepted for that, not told she is wrong to feel that way.
marymary – I switched from commenting on the one dismissal of Rose’s feeling, to commenting on dating advice in general, Sorry for the confusion. But that does seem to be a theme in dating advice in general (including, but not limited to EMK) The collective advice seems to be “Women, accept men EXACTLY as they ARE, and contort yourself into a pretzel and be something other that who you are”. EMK say a lot of great things on his blog, but I was left open mouthed when he told Rose he shouldn’t “assume” she was hurt.
Emerald: you’re not reading what Evan is saying. He’s not making any assumptions, just pointing out that if Rose eschews male friendships simply because she’s been hurt in the past, she is assuming that any future men she may become friends with will hurt her. Basically assuming guilt before proving innocence.
It’s also being pointed out that since it’s likely that she’s been hurt by female friends in the past too–who here has never been hurt by same-gender friends?–would she then refuse to become friends with women in the future?
Joe – I was commenting on Rose’s post #9 where she said
Quote “Personally I don’t want to be friends with men who hurt me or no longer find me attractive, if there was something there at one point. I don’t really see what the point is of trying to be friends with a woman you hurt or dumped. Especially if the guy hurt me, what does a friendship do for me? I think by acting like nothing ever happened it’s rather insulting. He’s not my friend.”
Perhaps she said something after that, in another post, but I was commenting SPECIFICALLY on this post. Everything in THIS post indicates that she is strictly talking about not wanting to be friends with someone who has already hurt her or dumped her. I see the semantic quibbling about weather or not the guy hurt her, or the BREAKUP hurt her as silly. Right up there with GUNS don’t hurt people, PEOPLE hurt people. I see absolutely NOTHING in there that says she will eschew future male friendships with men she was never in love with to begin with. I really didn’t understand EMK’s sarcastic comment “, but you seem to want your male friends to find you attractive although you don’t find them attractive. Got it.” She didn’t say that, she SPECIFICALLY said “guys who NO LONGER find her attractive” she didn’t say “I want guys who I don’t find attractive to find me attractive.” If the guy hurt her, obviously she found him attractive. I chalk it up to male/female communication disconnect. Not slamming males or females here, but I see it on these blogs (not just EMK, but blogs in gen’l. ) Someone will say something, members of the opposite sex see something completely different.
I think Rory Raye (a female relationship coach who’s newlsetter I recieve, says much I disagree with, BUT, I totally agree with her, that if you’ve been in a relationship with a guy, and then he wants to be just friends (and they usually want benefits with that friendship) you should say no. Just tell him you feel more than friends feeling for him and you can’t see him on those terms. Must be a “girl” thing, just another instance of us girls having feelings that were not suppose to have.
EMK – My gripe was NEVER with you telling us how men ARE. My gripe was your non acceptance of how Rose is. I was disagreeing with that ONE particular post that you made, not making YOU or MEN in general into demons who are wrong in every way. I am not here to shoot you OK ? Do you think women should be accepted as they are ?
Sparkling Emerald said: (#84)
“I see the semantic quibbling about weather or not the guy hurt her, or the BREAKUP hurt her as silly.”
That’s because you’re completely overlooking the power people have to change their own attitude and outlook.
Instead of your misleading analogy of guns/people, let’s use and example of three attitudes toward dating that we see frequently on this blog:
a) “I suck at relationships. Most people don’t want to date me. The ones who date me end up dumping me once they get to know me.”
b) “I don’t want to date most men/women that I meet. Some seem interesting at first, but after dating them for a while, I figure out what’s wrong with them and dump them. There’s nobody good out there to date.”
c) “Dating is hard for everyone. It’s probably going to take a while for me to find someone who is compatible.”
Who do you think is most likely to eventually succeed at dating?
Three three types people are having very similar experiences dating. But their attitude completely separates them. Two of those attitudes greatly decrease your likelihood of success. One of those attitudes increases your likelihood of success.
Just like your ability to successfully date is heavily influenced by your attitude, your ability to remain friends after a breakup is heavily influenced by your attitude (and the attitude of the other person). Her words are important because they show us her underlying perspective and attitude.
Sheesh Karl -
Now I feel like I’ve been completely mis-understood, and I’m getting lectured by a total stranger on this blog who knows nothing about me, yet thinks he knows it all about me, all based on my agreeing with Rose, about not wanting to be friends with someone after a painful break up. Just another example of a man (you) telling a woman that how she is, or how she feel is WRONG. Some people can be friends with exes, some can’t PERIOD. Why does one way or the other have to be WRONG ?
I agree that c) “Dating is hard for everyone. It’s probably going to take a while for me to find someone who is compatible.”
is a good attitude to adopt. That is why I take all these dating coaching advice sites with a grain of salt, and read them for entertainment only. The pop up ads and e-mails I get demonstrate that most of these dating advice business’es for women operate on the assumption of “Ladies, you all SUCK at relationships, but for the amazingly low price of $$$$$$$$, we’ll tell you EXACTLY what you are doing that is so horrible, and give you a magic pill that will turn you into a MAN magnet” I keep getting these pop up ads about “The 10 ugly mistakes women make that ruin ANY chance of a relationship” ETC, ETC. BTW, I think EMK pretty much offers a balanced view, but I was shocked at his attitude toward Rose. And even more shocked when he called me a “victim” who “demonizes all men” WOW, disagree with a few thing he says and you are a man hating victim huh ? Interesting.
@Sparkling Emerald, who said “Now I feel like I’ve been completely mis-understood, and I’m getting lectured by a total stranger on this blog who knows nothing about me”.
Yeah. Welcome to my world. Fun, isn’t it?
By the way, you’re all up in arms about Rose’s comment and my innocuous response, which “shocked” you.
There was nothing shocking about it. Rose has every right to choose not to be friends with a man after a breakup. I never said otherwise. But here’s the text you keep trying to defend:
“Personally I don’t want to be friends with men who hurt me or no longer find me attractive, if there was something there at one point. I don’t really see what the point is of trying to be friends with a woman you hurt or dumped. Especially if the guy hurt me, what does a friendship do for me? I think by acting like nothing ever happened it’s rather insulting. He’s not my friend.”
Naturally, Rose can feel hurt by the end of a relationship. Yet she intimates that, say, a trusted ex has not only “insulted” her by hoping to keep ties, but that their breakup completely invalidates their deep friendship. Whether you agree with me or not, Rose sounds extremely thin-skinned and bitter towards her exes. Her words don’t sound like she wants to keep a healthy distance (like I recommend to women); they sound like the living proof of “Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned”.
EMK - I am waving the white flag of surrender.
Can men and women really be just friends? The answer is it depends.
I have had exes that I am friends with (in fact my ex-husband one of my best friends), and exes that I am not friends with.
For me, the key is what type of person he is. (Disclaimer: I said he because as I am speaking for me only. I am not beating up men, it’s just I’ve never dated a woman so all my exes are men. If I ever do date a woman, I will be happy to provide a comparison statement between dating men and women for y’all. But for the record, I do think my statements apply to both men and women.)
If he is a person of good and decent character who treated me with kindness, courtesy, and respect while we were together and the relationship just didn’t work out, then generally I am still friends with him.
If he is a person of questionable, sketchy, or low character who treated me unkindly, rudely, and/or disrespectfully while we were together, than generally I do not remain in contact with him.
Whether I am a friends with an ex or I guy I’ve met, the key is boundaries. For me, that boundary is that I do not sleep with my friends. If you can respect that boundary, we can be friends. If you cannot, then we can’t be. Of course, whether a person respects another person’s boundary is all about character — good/decent character will respect boundaries; questionable/sketchy/low character will probably not respect boundaries.
Just my 02 cents.
Men absolutely cannot be just friends with women. Especially if said woman is considered attractive. Sorry, but it’s the truth.
Every single one of my male “friends” has pursued me at one point or another. I’m not conceited nor delusional. This has been an ongoing pattern since I was a teenager (I’m 34 years old now).
Most recently, one of my close male friends started pursuing me quite intensely. He confessed his love and basically made me think the moon and sun revolved around me. The problem was that he happen to have a girlfriend who was also my close friend.
The results of the subsequent affair could span over several different articles and blog posts. In the end, he broke up with her an disappeared from my life. Three close friendships destroyed.
The point is, if there had not been an underlying attraction between the both of us, we would have gotten to be such good friends in the first place. I guarantee that. Which, I suppose, begs the question; Can women be just friends with men?