Can You Have Meaningless Sex While You’re Looking for a Long Term Relationship?

Evan Marc Katz

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Every second you’re investing in the wrong guy is a second you’re not looking for the right guy. It’s not that there’s anything bad about playing around on the side while you pursue a relationship, it’s that if you’re juggling one or two booty calls on Tuesday and Saturday nights, when exactly are you making time for the potential keepers? That’s right: you’re not. The time and effort you put into pure sexual relationships could potentially be channeled into something that is, in the long-run, more productive.

Every second you’re investing in the wrong guy is a second you’re not looking for the right guy.

You may want to be able to handle meaningless sex more than you’re actually able to handle it. It’s easy to theoretically have meaningless sex. It’s different when you’re intoxicated by the presence of a man, when you crave his touch and his attention, when you’re under the influence of oxytocin, which chemically bonds you to a man after intercourse. These are very real, very biological reasons that makes it far more difficult for women to sleep around. If you think you’re immune to these feelings, look back on your life at your more promiscuous days.

Were you happier?

Were you feeling better about yourself?

Did you end up falling for some of those guys in spite of yourself?

History tends to repeat itself, and only you can answer whether you’d actually like it to. All I can tell you is this: if you have an itch and you need to scratch it, go ahead. But if you keep scratching that itch over and over, eventually, it’s going to start to hurt. Take care of your libido, Melanie, but don’t lose sight of your emotions in the process.

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1. Sex And Your Long-Term Relationship. Not Enough Or Too Much?
2. When Do You Begin Dating Again After a Long-Term Relationship or Marriage?
3. When Should a Woman Have Sex With a Man?
4. Dating and the Double Standard
5. The Secret to Successful Long-Term Relationships

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354 Comments »Filed Under Sex

354 Responses to “Can You Have Meaningless Sex While You’re Looking for a Long Term Relationship?”

1. Honey 1

   I think this is one of the more interesting questions that’s been raised in awhile.

   The BF and I had sex on our first date and I think if we hadn’t, there’s no way we’d still be together. Though, odds-wise, I certainly slept with a lot of folks on the first date that didn’t work out. So it’s certainly not a “finding the one” strategy, although it doesn’t sound like the LW intends it that way.

   Evan’s questions are good ones. Thinking back on my promiscuous days…

   Was I happier? No. Was I as happy as I am now? I’d say yes. I mean, I wanted a relationship, but my happiness wasn’t in any way predicated on finding that. The times in my life that I remember being unhappy were when a long-term relationship went sour.

   Was I feeling better about myself? At the time, I was young, in fantastic shape, in a great grad program, and going on tons of dates. I felt pretty darn good about myself. Again, I don’t think you can miss something before you have it. If I lost the BF now, I’d be devastated, and I don’t think that I could be promiscuous again like when I was younger, because I’d be comparing it to the “real stuff” you get in a really great relationship. But before I found him, I was all about it.

   Did I end up falling for some of these guys (I’m assuming casual sex partners) despite myself? No. I ended it first every time, I’m pretty sure. The only guy that I remember liking who ended it with me, I never slept with. Go figure.

   As far as I knew, oxytocin is produced by both men and women during sex. It’s higher after orgasm for women, but I’ve never had an orgasm from anything except a vibrator, so maybe that’s why I never got attached to any of those other fellows.

   I’m SO INTERESTED to hear what others have to say. Rock on for picking this one, Evan!

2. Honey 2

   Clarification – I’ve fallen for guys who didn’t fall for me (and had my heart broken) plenty of times. It just wasn’t ever in the context of casual sex – it was always in the context of relationships lasting 6 months or more. Though really, now that I’ve been in a longer-term relationship, 6 months seems pretty casual to me.

3. Karl R 3

   Melanie asked:
   “Will men still take me seriously if I ‘go there’ right from the beginning?”

   That depends on the man. I’d be less likely to take you seriously, but there are other men who would still take you seriously.

   By initiating a relationship with a hookup, you may be changing what kind of man you’re likely to end up in a relationship with. Therefore, you might want to think about what kind of man you’re looking for.

   “Lately I just don’t care HOW it’s perceived, I just want to have some sex with a hot sexy guy.”

   If that’s what you want, then that’s what you’ll probably end up doing, regardless of what Evan recommends.

   Therefore, the real question becomes: How do you have a hookup or get laid without harming your chances for a serious relationship?

   One possibility is to date someone until you determine whether he has relationship potential. If you’re sure he doesn’t, then you can hook up with him. This solution generally works better for men, since we tend to compartmentalize. Evan already mentioned the potential complication of oxytocin. Another potential complication is that the man may assume you want a serious relationship when you have sex. This could be circumvented by explicitly letting him know that you don’t see relationship potential, but you’d like to have sex anyway. This openess works in your favor, since a man is more likely to agree to this sort of an arrangement than a woman. You also don’t need to feel guilty that you might have “led him on”, since you were explicit about your intentions from the outset.

   And as Evan pointed out, don’t let hooking up limit the time you spend searching for a serious relationship.

4. Jennifer 4

   What Karl R said. As long as you don’t pass up a date for what you know is a random hookup, and if you are able to have sex without getting caught up (I think more women are capable of this than people think) you can be fine.

   Frankly it’s hard to imagine going months without sex at all as an adult (which is what it can easily equate to if we are talking the time it takes to date, find a guy you like, get to know him and/or get exclusive and have sex) so I don’t blame you at all for trying to figure out what to do in the meantime.

   Here’s a tip though- don’t call a random hookup guy when you are lonely. Only when you are horny. If it’ll really hurt your feelings if he doesn’t stay and have breakfast with you, or even stay the night with you, then this random hooking up thing may not be for you.

5. Honey 5

   Almost all the women I know are capable of having sex without getting attached, Jennifer. (Though the exceptions I can think of are every man’s worst clingy nightmare.)

   I think that secretly, the fact that women are just as capable of casual sex is men’s greatest fear. Many men complain about the inconvenience of women getting attached too quickly (or reading things into what are to the man, meaningless fun), or at least that’s the stereotype when they are young and “sowing their wild oats.” However, later when they ARE looking for a relationship, if sex doesn’t automatically bond women to them without their even having to try, then they actually have to work at being desirable partners.

6. Zann 6

   Ooooooooooooh, all such great responses to a great letter. And thanks, Melanie, for being so direct. I sometimes feel like the odd-ball or “loose” one among my women peers because I’ve had casual men friends-with-benefits while looking elsewhere for a long term relationship. Not tons of them, but several over the years. It hasn’t always worked out as smoothly as it sounded in the beginning, but I don’t regret any of these encounters. I admit, sometimes I feel that tug as we part ways, because for me, a connection has been made. But it isn’t a crushing, betrayed, abandoned feeling… it’s more that I’m just plain sad (or greedy) that the great physical feelings are ending for now, that we’re both going back to our real lives, and there’s nothing definitive about when or if we’ll be together again. The sadness passes quickly &, in fact, I usually feel energized after sex & actually grateful all my parts still work & that I can also give pleasure that way. But I do think men get a little weird sometimes when a woman states her sexual desires & expectations about the limits of these “arrangements.” It’s like men want you in the same way you want them, but they’re a little uncomfortable hearing you say it out loud. I suspect that’s a result of our cultural background & the fact that maybe evolution hasn’t caught up yet with the dramatic shift women have made in the context of the outside world — financially, professionally, socially, and sexually. Just some thoughts.

7. Michael 7

   Curious letter, Evan. She wants to “just hook up” but she also wants to be “taken seriously”? I would suggest (as I think you have – I’m not sure) that it’s one or the other, but I’d assure her that she won’t be “ruined” for a solid relationship if she has a few (a few!) one-night stands.

   As far as the emotional issues, having spoken with hundreds of women on this I can tell you that Honey’s friends are in the minority (but I’m sure she’s telling the truth: we’re usually attracted to our friends because they’re like us) but that said there are a reasonable number of women who can deal with a one-night stand on occasion. Melanie won’t know until she tries it.

   My one recommendation for someone in Melanie’s exact situation would be to make sure these are truly one-night stands: avoid the temptation of the “f***-buddy” or “booty call,” which are addictive (if the sex is good) but offer too much false hope that a relationship might one day spring up out of it.

   Make sure to get on the same page about STDs and protection, leave before morning, and afterward don’t call or text or return calls or texts. Have fun!

8. Helen 8

   Honey, you wrote: “I think that secretly, the fact that women are just as capable of casual sex is men’s greatest fear.”

   Blessings to you. I don’t know that I agree that men fear this the most of all… but I do agree that it is possible for women to have casual sex with very little emotional attachment, and that if women just realized this, they might feel much more free about themselves and about others.

   Evan, I wouldn’t be as urgent with this woman (Melanie) as you are about her “wasting time”. After all, your previous post pointed out that a woman could wait till age 73 for a relationship! Good on you! Then why should she be in a rush? Why shouldn’t she just enjoy casual sex?

9. Paul 9

   I’ve never had a long term relationship with a woman that didn’t start with having sex early on. And I’ve been married and divorced twice. So much for the hook ups. Ya, I’ve had lots of sex, in my early days I did what all men try to do…get laid as much as possible. What did it get me? Nothing really. I think if you really want a long term relationship…which used to be called marriage… you wait. Sex ruins perspective. It clouds the issue…and you might make a different decision had you not slept with the guy. So I think in essence, it’s mutually exclusive…you can’t just go around sleeping with anybody and everybody and find the man of your dreams at the same time. Either you’re a good girl, or you’re a slut. It’s that simple. You can’t have it both ways, sorry. And oh, by the way, the women that can just sleep around like that, used to be called sluts…and most girls didn’t want to be one! How times have changed. I think you need to work on your self respect, because no self respecting man is going to want a woman who will go to bed with him easily, and for good reason…if your that easy, you’re likely to do it on him, hell, maybe with his best friend! I’m looking for a girl who WON’T go to bed with me…now that’s a keeper! The question is do you want to be a keeper, or a “find em, feel ‘em, f_ _ k ‘em and forget ‘em”, throw away girl?

10. Curly Girl 10

    Honey, I LOVE your frank talk!!

    And thanks to both you and Jennifer for calling into question this stuff about oxytocin. It’s a hormone that comes and goes in your blood stream for a brief time. It’s not superglue.

11. Jennifer 11

    My suggestion is that she not make ‘relationship guy’ and ‘random sex guy’ the same person. Either she’s interested in the guy for a relationship and sees how it plays out or she finds the guy unsuitable for a serious relationship for some reason or another and considers sleeping with him every now and then just because she wants to. A little different than what we’ve been taught, but it can get her needs met. Not every sexual encounter has to be soul stirring and deeply meaningful and filled with proclamations of love but like Evan cautions, I wouldn’t make a habit of it. Everything in moderation. The best part of it is that if it’s offensive to you then women, you don’t have to do it and men, you can find a woman who finds it offensive also. Everyone can win LOL

    To the ladies (Honey, CG, Helen, Zann)- great points all!

12. Evan Marc Katz 12

    Superglue: http://www.amazon.com/Chemistry-Connection-Oxytocin-Response-Intimacy/dp/1572246235

13. Lance 13

    @Paul #0: That’s ridiculous. You can be both a good girl and a slut. They are simply two frames that any of us can take on, switching on or off. I’m sure every good girl who reads has had a slut fantasy, whether they admit it or not.

    I generally agree with EMK here. There’s no issue with casual sex while you’re looking for an LTR provided you’re clear with your intentions with your casual partners. Goes for guys and gals. We all have to have sex. It’s a need.

    I find it refreshing when a woman says she just wants to get laid and nothing more. That’s coming from a place of security and it’s nothing to be frightened of.

14. JB 14

    I’d be curious to know how old Melanie is and if she’s divorced or has kids ? I can assure you from my experience women in their 40′s and 50′s think about casual sex a lot differently than their younger peers.
    I, on the other hand have always said “everyone wants to be in love,but in the meantime life goes on” and so does casual dating.

15. Jennifer 15

    @Evan #12- I’ve got no doubt that oxytocin is a real thing, I just have a quibble over whether it overrides all of the other factors that come into play with sex and relationships.

16. casualencounters.com/blog 16

    “I think that secretly, the fact that women are just as capable of casual sex is men’s greatest fear.”

    A couple of things.

    As we’re feeling comfortable speaking on behalf of our genders, I will speak on behalf of all men and claim that our greatest fear is more like likely to involve death/violence/prison rape/having our children eaten by dingos/whatever than it is to involve OMGWTFBBQ WOMEN ARE CAPABLE OF CASUAL SEX, TOO.

    I will also assert that, in light of anecdotal evidence, teh_Science, and my personal judgment, while any particular woman might be capable of living a wild lifetime of NSA splorking hedonism, and the percentage of your girlypals being keen on same may approach or be equal to 100%, the odds of a woman picked at random from a population sharing this proclivity are considerably lower than those of a random male picked from the same group.

    Disclaimer: I’m an idiot who has no idea what he’s talking about.

17. Honey 17

    Thanks for the link, Evan.

    I read the description of the book, as well as the author’s bio, and I have to say that I don’t consider her a credible source (a JOURNALIST who BLOGS about this because she can relate it to her life experiences? Please, that’s right up there with astrology), though if there’s other information out there I’d love to know about it.

    I ran a search on oxytocin in the academic database Medline/Ovid, and almost all of the research that’s been done on oxytocin is in the context of pregnancy, childbirth, and lactation, since that’s when it’s most commonly produced.

    Many of the articles I found did say that oxytocin promotes pair bonding in highly social species, but how it actually functions (and to what degree, and whether that function is gendered) remains unclear. Here’s the most specific reference I found: In nonhuman mammals, the neuropeptide oxytocin has repeatedly been shown to increase social approach behavior and pair bonding. In particular, central nervous oxytocin reduces behavioral and neuroendocrine responses to social stress and is suggested to mediate the rewarding aspects of attachment in highly social species. However, to date there have been no studies investigating the effects of central oxytocin mechanisms on behavior and physiology in human couple interaction. (This is from an article in the May 2009 issue of Biological Psychiatry)

    I also discovered that, apparently, rats with oxytocin deficiencies are statistically more likely to develop adult-onset diabetes. Interesting…

    So, yeah, until I find some quality medical sources that say otherwise, I’m calling a big urban legend on the whole oxytocin thing.

    I do agree with what others have said that she won’t know if she’s capable of the casual sex thing until she tries it, and that she should be sure that she’s not trying both angles with the same person. And that if she’s not worried about finding “the one” in the next five minutes and is willing to slow down and have some fun, we certainly don’t need to panic on her behalf

18. Honey 18

    I should say, the rats developed adult-onset OBESITY that made them more susceptible to diabetes. Oops.

19. Honey 19

    @casualencounters,

    1. I am not at all comfortable speaking for others, though as a human being without mind reading abillities I am forced to project/interpret in order to make any sense out of the world, unless I have the good fortune of encountering the explicitly described reactions of others. Which I often do, on this blog!

    2. I suppose I could have clarified that it is one of men’s biggest fears, in the context of romantic relationships/encounters, if and only if the first and second tiers of Maslow’s hierarchy of needs have already been met, but it seemed a bit over the top to me

    3. While I readily agree that my friends are my friends because they’re similar to me, I do think the number of women who participate in casual sex without attachment or emotional scarring, at least on an irregular basis, is much higher than is often assumed. Similarly, I think the number of men who participate in casual sex without attachment or emotional scarring is much lower than is often assumed. I.e., women aren’t slaves to their hormones, nor are men emotionless machines. We’re all far more alike than we are different.

    Which I am very happy about!

20. Honey 20

    I realize that maybe “urban legend” is too strong a response to current claims about oxytocin. A more accurate response would be “we’re jumping the gun since the studies proving our suspicions haven’t been conducted yet.”

    Just in case anyone was going to give me a hard time over that

21. AJ 21

    Go for it!!!! I do it on occassion without any problem. I am happy and much more less stressed when I am getting some____! For me, guys I choose are ones that I have no thoughts about having a long term relationship with, but the sex is good and we treat other well when together. Its generally dinner, drinks and hot sex. Some are much younger or live far away. It allows you to be much less uptight when you are looking for the long term relationship and your focus is clear. So less desperate. A few were guys I have known for years and once it was a new young fellow. I don’t do daily and the frequency is less than it would be if I was in a relationship. No droughts her! Lol :O

22. Katherine 22

    Why are we assuming that she meant casual sex with many men? Maybe she meant that she had a mutually consenting partner who she could have safe and fun sex with – but for whatever reason – wasn’t a situation that would turn into a long term relationship.
    I think this is completely sane, and may even HELP her cause, by tempering the oxytocin effect so that when you do meet a potential LTR, you will have your wits about you.

23. sophie 23

    There are so many points I want to make about this post!!! Firstly, I cannot believe what a crazy country the USA is!!!! I live in the UK and this attitude that a woman will be taken less seriously if she has sex early on just isn’t commonplace! I have never in my life come across this double standard outside of TV dramas set in the 1950s and I am 27 years old and know lots of people! I don’t doubt that there are people in the UK that have these attitudes but I’ve never met any of them!

    Personally if I was living in a society in which a significant proportion of the male population thought less of a girl if she was prepared to sleep with them too early on, then doing just that would be the obvious screening mechanism! I have high moral standards when it comes to men, and, quite frankly, someone who thinks less of me for doing something he sees nothing wrong with doing himself needs to be eliminated from my pool of potential future partners a.s.a.p! That kind of man is not the type of man I want my kids to spend their weekends with!

    So I would say to Melanie: if you want your future long term partner to be a Neanderthal sexist hypocrite lacking in both intelligence and moral integrity then I suggest delaying sex with the men you see as potential suitors. If you want to meet someone with a more developed sense of morality who sees women as equals and who will treat you with fairness then I don’t think it matters when you first sleep together. Do it as soon or as late as you yourself want to. I know plenty of couples who had sex on their first date and have nevertheless been together for 5 years or more, 10 in a couple of cases. I always have sex early on and this has never stopped men falling in love with me. The only reason not to do this would be if you yourself fall in love unusually frequently or easily.

24. Diana 24

    I find Melanie’s letter a bit perplexing. I am hoping to someday have another great long-term relationship, but that doesn’t mean I am abandoning my playful side. I don’t have to be in an LTR to come out and play. I am not interested in meeting strange or familiar men simply for a detachable one-night stand or hookups to release my wildcat or rush into sex, despite my urgings. They make toys for that. I do not trust those situations on so many levels, including protecting myself from disease. Yet if I’m dating someone on a regular basis and it’s obvious we click, then I am willing and wanting to go there. And whether or not the dating at that point would lead to an LTR would remain to be seen.

    In response to her question … yes! A lot of guys won’t take her seriously, but why would this concern her, if she’s hooking up with them for only a sexual release in the first place?! It sort of sounds like she wants her cake and eat it, too. Perhaps she’s afraid that she will bang a hot guy one night and unexpectedly fall for him, but he’ll just see her as used goods and not LTR material. Be careful what you wish for.

    Some of the comments on here are really interesting. Regarding oxytocin, they have recently done studies on the role it plays in sexual arousal and orgasms for both sexes, and it’s interesting. When I stop to think about it, the feeling I have after an orgasm during sex (no toy necessary) is similar to the feeling I experienced after giving birth. Hmmm.

25. sophie 25

    My 2nd point: I think Melanie may be thinking more about having a sex life separate from her search for the one which I personally think is a good idea. I have had a series of friends with benefits over the last few years but found myself with no source of sex around about the time I first joined an internet dating site. I found that when I wasn’t having regular sex my judgement became clouded. I’d find myself getting involved with men I instinctively felt I wouldn’t fall in love with just because it was harder for me to pay attention to my instincts given I was craving sex.

    Now I have found myself a new FWB I am finding it easier to make better judgements about who would make a suitable partner and who wouldn’t. It is far easier to turn down someone who you are immensely attracted to but nevertheless suspect you will not fall in love with if it hasn’t been 6 months since you had sex and if you know that your next opportunity to have sex won’t be 6 months away! Again though, obviously if you are prone to falling in love easily then the FWB route is possibly not the best one!

    Personally I’ve never had any problems with falling for FWBs unintentionally. I’ve had 4 guys over the last 3 years with whom I’ve had quite intense sexual relationships. All have been good looking, funny, interesting, intelligent, succesful, kind, alpha males whose company I have loved and who I have been immensely attracted to. I am still in touch with all of them and would consider 2 to have been amongst my closest friends. I have enormous respect for these men and they have a lot of respect for me. Two have dropped everything to help me out in hard times on a number of occasions. But I have never been in any doubt that I would not fall in love with any of these men and presumably they felt the same about me. I think for a lot of people, women included, love is just incredibly rare. It always amuses me when men talk about women being less able to “compartmentalize”! They seem to think that just sleeping with an attractive man is enough to make a woman fall in love!!?? IF only it were that simple!?

    In fact, I read that there has been a fair amount of sociology research done that has shown that men actually fall in love more quickly and more easily than women! I may find out more about this research and post again with it, I found it interesting!

26. Val 26

    Hello-
    I have had one night stands that I walked away from without any problem at all.
    Men tend to over-estimate how many women cling to them just so that they can brag to their friends.
    When men do this, they look as pathetic as a woman who does cling.

    And Paul, your binary world sounds very practical.
    You know what else is practical?
    An ad for tube socks in a Sears catalog.

    LOL

    It is true that true love takes a lot of work and luck. But don’t live your life in fear. Don’t let the terrorists win!

27. sophie 27

    And my take on the oxytocin thing: I have read about this before but have absolutely zero experience of it in the context of my own sex/love life. I never feel any differently for a man immediately after sex, there is no crazy hormonal explosion! This proves nothing although I do suspect that if this is my experience then there will almost certainly be millions of other women out there who similarly have no experience of the mysterious oxytocin high! Whether or not we are a minority or not I have no idea!

28. Sunflower 28

    I’ve been exactly where Melanie is today. I get a lot of attention from guys 10-12 years my junior on-line, and while that’s not what I’m looking for in terms of a long-term relationship (I’m 41), the lack of finding someone suitable has led me down these paths a couple of times for exactly the same reasons. I think as long as you go into it knowing exactly what your expectations are and knowing “This isn’t the one, but it’ll be fun for a weekend”, it can be rejuvenating to be found attractive, and put a little zip in your step. Even if you do find yourself becoming a little emotionally involved, to be honest, how long would that last for someone you’ve only met once? A week? 2 max. Hate to say it, but a couple of years on, I can barely remember their names…..

    If you go into it knowing that he isn’t “the one”, it’ll give you a boost and (I’m not suggesting AT ALL Melanie is this before everyone jumps on my comment) but it can stop you feeling so desperate, so that when you do find “the one”, you are full of confidence, and not putting yourself over as clingy and ‘grateful’ for the attention.

29. Selena 29

    Oh Honey! You got me dying here with everything you’ve been writing. LOL!!!
    –”I also discovered that, apparently, rats with oxytocin deficiencies are statistically more likely to develop adult-onset diabetes. Interesting

    So, yeah, until I find some quality medical sources that say otherwise, I’m calling a big urban legend on the whole oxytocin thing.”

    Good job with the research.

    I never quite bought the oxytocin idea because I’ve slept with a few men I realized I didn’t really like later on. Where was the oxytocin there? More like anti-oxytocin. I wish it had been there before the initmacy. On the other hand, good sex with someone you are highly attracted to can keep you coming back for more. Shrug.

    Sounds to me that Melanie has already enjoyed casual sex and doesn’t need *warnings* about it. Particularly from Paul. Evan covered all the bases regarding attachment/time spent/etc. Only suggestion I have would be to try to keep the “casual” fishing pond separate from the “looking for serious” fishing pond. If she’s meeting guys from online, not the same neighborhood, that shouldn’t be a problem.

30. Curly Girl 30

    Honey, I just love you!!!

    I think oxytocin is getting majorly slammed on this board, with only the guys opting for its power over the female decision-making process.

    I do get emotionally attached to the guys I sleep with (usually one at a time and for awhile each, to be clear–don’t want to be accused of being a slut!), but I don’t attribute this to any sort of biochemical. I consider it a human thing, and a good human thing at that. I also get emotionally attached to the places I have lived and visited, songs I hear, clothes I own, books I read, movies I see, food I eat, coworkers, and pets. But none of these things have given me orgasms (except for the coworkers I have slept with, a very small subgroup, though not as small as I wish it were).

    There is a difference between feeling an emotional bond and being a stalker. Emotions and sex together are nice–like a lovely breeze that touches your face.

31. honey 31

    Thanks, Jennifer, Selena, Curlygirl, everyone.

    It seems there are two possible explanations for the women slamming oxytocin and the men believing in it:

    1. women don’t want to believe they’re slaves to their hormones
    2. men want to believe that women are slaves to their hormones

    Oh, wait, I forgot….

    3. We’re all human, and flawed – just as likely to not grow attached when we should as we are to grow attached when we shouldn’t.

    Yeah, I found the bit about the rats and obesity to be FASCINATING – I’d love to know whether the rats were genetically predisposed to oxytocin deficiency or whether they just weren’t cuddled enough when they were baby rats

32. Sunflower 32

    Melanie – I’d say cut all this Oxy-whatever crap – I’m European, not American – which maybe explains it – I don’t do for all this over-analysis – we don’t do that in Europe – it’s just sex. As I said earlier, as long as you got your ducks in a row, and you know why you’re doing what, then go for it. As long as you don’t think he’s “the one” – and for God’s sake don’t fall into that trap, because he won’t be. Have a ball, don’t get involved, and the joy of having slept with a man who finds you attractive will raise your
    spirits no end – more so if you are detached – see my previous email before reading these pious emails. I’m with ya girl – go European!

33. Sunflower 33

    By the way, that’s why I get attention from men 10-12 years my junior – might be weird in America, but not in Europe – we are somewhat more flexible, and a woman in her 40′s is definitely in her prime………to a man of any age…….

34. Mikko Kemppe - Relationship Coach 34

    Great post, and great answer by Evan. My only recommendation is for just to make sure you are being honest with yourself and your partner about it all:
    http://relationship-journal.com/2009/05/26/dating-in-the-21st-century-what-if-you-want-to-have-sex-but-you-are-not-ready-for-a-relationship/

35. Selena 35

    Moving to Europe.

36. Kenley 36

    Melanie,

    Read a book called “The Happy Hook-Up: A Single Girl’s Guide to Casual Sex.” It’s a really, really good guide for how to engage in enjoyable casual sex while protecting both your health and your heart.

37. Curly Girl 37

    Agreed, Sunflower! My guy is European and a lot of the stuff on this board would just make him laugh–the idea of someone being “marketable” (or not) as a prospective partner; all this stuff about gender roles (he’s a fantastic cook, he cleans, has excellent taste in decor and clothing–and this is just normal for him, not some gender anomaly); and all this anxiety/pressure about marriage.

    Another interesting difference stemming from his Euro background: He also expects people to exercise (biking, walking–not nec. the gym) and eat healthfully (fruits, vegetables–no processed foods or many sweets) as part of an aesthetically pleasing life, not for weight management. If a guy is overweight he isn’t considered attractive, no matter how much money he has. And the American preoccupation with money is also off-putting to him (and to other Europeans I know).

    He’s really quite fantastic, and I am always learning from him.

38. Steve 38

    @Honey post #1

    Wow, your BF sure got a lot from what he considered to be a throw-away “practice date”.

39. Steve 39

    @Selena post #35

    Want to share a plane ride?

    I’ve often felt more European than American except for the warm juice/soda/beer thing and the fugly little cars. They seem to have everything else about right.

40. Steve 40

    @VAL #26

    LOL!! ( no disrespect Paul ).

41. Steve 41

    I think I, as well as most every other American man, would be happy if someone told us from now on that American women could and would have casual encounters with no attachments.

    Having said that I think some of the women here protest too much.

    All of my life, I have heard no shortage of tasteless jokes and complaints about how women *tend* to become attached after casual encounters.

    I don’t hear those complaints and jokes about men. The only time I have seen those situations with men has been with inexperienced, geeky and sensitive men.

    Not all apples are round and are the same shade of red, yet the generalizations that apples are round and red fruit is useful.

42. Jennifer 42

    @Selena #35- no need to move to Europe. Despite the huge sweeping generalizations being made, not everyone in the United States is as uptight and puritanical as some of our European neighbors seem hell bent on believing.

43. Jennifer 43

    Sorry folks but there is way too much diversity in the States and in Europe (regionally, culturally, economically) that affects attidues and thinking on sex and relationships for me to be able to get on board with all of the ‘all eurpeans view sex like this’ and ‘all americans view sex like this’ viewpoints that get expressed.

44. Steve 44

    @Jennifer #43

    But if we stick to facts the discussion will end and where will be the fun?

45. Jennifer 45

    @Steve#44- LOL..very true!! Okay, my serious face is back off now

46. Honey 46

    @ Steve #38 –

    Yes, he certainly never expected to find someone like me on his first date in 4 years! He told me later that he was sort of disappointed at the time because he’d been looking forward to dating around, but followed up by saying, “But I’m not stupid. I know there aren’t girls like you out there. I knew you were a keeper!”
    .-= Honey’s last blog ….Revelations Part II: What He Said, and The Plan =-.

47. Ava 47

    Honey #1
    “The BF and I had sex on our first date and I think if we hadn’t, there’s no way we’d still be together.”

    Why is that?

    This is very interesting. Hopeless romantic that I am, I’ve never been into casual sex, even when I was much younger (now late-40′s), and I’ve thought the whole oxytocin phenomenon was why. However, I do think psychological and social factors come into play as well. The people I’ve slept with were always ones whom I thought I could have a serious relationship with. Often, though, I didn’t find out until a few weeks or months later, that there was no way it would work. So I’ve tried waiting and getting to know someone better before sleeping with them (still didn’t work), and now I’ve decided that even if I do have sex, it doesn’t necessarily come with a big commitment right away.

    I may have worried that a guy would think I was “easy” if we had sex quickly, but ironically, I now realize that in the past, I’d been too easy as far as giving my heart and my commitment too soon. And I didn’t get respected for THAT! So while I’m still not likely to sleep with people I don’t really care about, I am going to temper my desire for a big commitment right away. A man has to prove to me that he’s worthy of that honor.

    Having said all that, it sounds like Melanie is more concerned about her own fears about being loose or slutty, then what a guy she’s just using for sex really thinks. She says “Lately I just don’t care HOW it’s perceived, I just want to have some sex with a hot sexy guy”.

    I say go for it, use a condom, take it for what it is, and enjoy!

48. Selena 48

    Steve,
    We’re off! Let’s tour the continent and see which country appreciates 40-somethings the most!

    Jennifer,
    I don’t find the US to be puritanical and uptight at all. Quite the opposite actually. The moving to Europe comment was in response to being over 40. It can get tiresome reading the perceptions regarding people over 40 on this blog. Though in the main that seems to pertain to online dating. Thus far in offline life, I’ve had no problems being an over 40 never-married woman.

49. Selena 49

    Yes Honey,

    I’m curious too. Why do you think you and the BF would not be together if you hadn’t had sex on the first date?

50. Honey 50

    @ Ava, #47 –

    He moved 130 miles away 5 days after our first date for a summer internship, and didn’t move back to the city where we were going to school for almost 4 months. He disagrees with my assessment, but I just don’t think that there would have been enough momentum for the relationship to last until he got back if we weren’t driving back and forth every weekend to get busy!
    .-= Honey’s last blog ….Revelations Part II: What He Said, and The Plan =-.

51. Selena 51

    Steve, re: protesting too much

    I’ve never gone looking for a casual encounter. Usually how it went would be I started dating someone, got to know them somewhat and slept with them within a week or three. More often, I knew the person a little bit before we started dating. Within a few weeks, 2.5 months at the outside, it would become clear that either he wasn’t into me, or I wasn’t into him. Unless of course we fell in love and that happened a few times.

    It’s those short term relationships that I consider “casual dating/sex”. Sometimes I did start feeling attachment, sometimes I didn’t and ended it. What I’m trying to say, along with some others that have commented, is that for women sex=oxytocin=bonding is a fallacy. If it were true, we would have bonded with everyone we ever had sex with. We didn’t. Attachment was a combination of factors, not just sex.

    Curly Girl described this very well in her post #30.

52. Curly Girl 52

    Re: Euro v. American to Jennifer–speaking generally and anecdotally, of course. I find outside the U.S. (Europe, Asia, S. America–can’t speak of anywhere else) that people eat food that they make from scratch more often than they eat processed food, and that they don’t like the U.S. processed food. It has a lot of salt and sugar in it, which they taste immediately. The northern Europeans I know especially are very into outdoor exercise but aren’t into health clubs–seems to be a big phenomenon in the U.S. but not nec. elsewhere–and these people are all very thin. The Europeans I know do make the connection between what you put in your body and how much you exercise and how your body looks, and it’s no secret that Europeans have always been critical of the rate of obesity in the U.S. Of course, these habits are changing as U.S. ways of doing things spread throughout the world–esp. in consumer goods and foods/beverages. And now they’re developing the same problem…

    I do believe that our ideas re: dating and mating are influenced most by the media and by our families. I’ve had relationships with 2 guys who grew up in countries where p*rn was outlawed, and their ideas of women and s*x are different in similar ways, I have to say it (better, in my view). These particular guys were really turned off by it, but I’ve known other guys from these same two countries who became very addicted to it once they had access. So it’s all very interesting–cultural differences.

    A lot of what we think is “the way it is” really isn’t the way it is. It’s the way we in this subgroup of humans do it. And we all seem to spend a lot of time (esp here in the U.S.) trying to defend why our way is the way (oxytocin! testosterone! hard wiring! thousands of years of evolution!).

53. Ronnie Ann Ryan - The Dating Coach 53

    This letter is hitting a nerve for a lot of people. I can tell you about my dating journey Melanie. I always did the right thing. I waited to get a know a guy first. I observed his actions to see if he showed consistency and the ability to follow through.

    Then one day, I got sick of it all and decided to have fun. Romeo, as I call him fondly, was #28 of the 30 men I dated to meet and marry my husband. He was a delicous bad boy who was all wrong for me. I decided to go for it, have fun and when things went sour (which was inevitable) I promised myself to get out.

    It was fabulous and I look back with absolutely no regrets. I learned I could be vulnerable without losing myself. The next two guys I met were both excellent candidates whom I connected with at a deeper level. I chose my husband, #30, and we’ve been happily married since 2000.

    Dating Romeo, most definitely Mr. Wrong for me, was the right thing to do. If you know what you need and promise yourself not to get lost, go for it and enjoy! If not, follow Evan’s advice closely which is exceptional and on target.
    .-= Ronnie Ann Ryan – The Dating Coach’s last blog ….Dating After Divorce: Why Do I Attract Con Men? =-.

54. Michael 54

    can you just go back to having meaningless sex until you find one?
    Of course, if a such thing as meaningless sex exists .

    For me, sex always has meaning, even if it is only to measure up to other people my age.

55. rose 55

    I would say that during my promiscuous days I was more excited and felt more alive, perhaps, but ultimately I did not feel loved or appreciated. I was really glad to see this post today because it affirms for me that I did the right thing last week.

    There was this foreign man I met about a month ago who was very exciting because he was confident enough after a group dinner I attend to walk all the way across the room at the end of the evening and introduce himself to me. Well, some folks went for drinks afterward and he insisted I come… again, he took the initiative, which is always exciting for me, I think because it seems like American don’t know how to do this. Sorry, it’s just how I feel, because I’ve spent a lot of time abroad to experience the difference.

    Anyway, the following week he called me for lunch, and things got rather physical (in the car, I might add!), which was a red flag that he was married. Otherwise, I’m sure he would have at least tried to get me to his place. Afterward, I let him know in an email responding to one from him that although I enjoy sex as much as anyone, I felt things had gotten physical too fast and that I didn’t even know if he was single because we hadn’t discussed it.

    He wrote back and fessed up that he wasn’t single but that things weren’t good in his marriage and he wanted to have fun and that he hoped to explore that with me. I wrote back and told him that although it was somewhat of a bummer and that I loved the confidence of foreign men, that I was looking for more. I told him that I feel men in unhappy relationships should deal with their lives head on and that having an affair with another woman was not the solution. Anyway, I feel proud of myself, because there is a time when I would have gone for the sex and for his “powers of seduction.”

56. Diana 56

    To Sunflower #28, I understand what you have shared, but I have a different view in that while I agree that great sex can put an extra bounce in your step, I do not believe that if it’s lacking, you will feel so desperate that when you meet the one, you will come across as clingy and grateful for their attention. This all comes down to the kind of woman you are.

    I think there are lots of women who have slept with a man for purely a sexual release and they still came across as grateful and desperate. Another POV, if you are considering this situation, one could say you’re already desperate for a man’s attention, and very desperate, based on your actions. And the guy may think you’re grateful for his assistance.

    True and lasting confidence comes from within and is most satisfying and sustaining based on achievement. While we all want to feel desired and attractive to the opposite sex, this is possible without hookups.

57. Diana 57

    To Sophie, I find your comments that most interesting of all. You write, “It is far easier to turn down someone who you are immensely attracted to but nevertheless suspect you will not fall in love with if it hasn’t been 6 months since you had sex and if you know that your next opportunity to have sex won’t be 6 months away!”

    My interpretation of what you are saying is that if it’s been longer than six months without sex, the physical attraction and temptation is stronger and thus, would make you feel that you might fall in love with the wrong person. You share your history about FWBs, but didn’t they begin and are they not sustained based on a physical attraction? And how do you know you would likely be falling in love with the wrong person?

    BTW, I like your observation about the double standard, and your response.

58. delicia 58

    Selena – LOL.

    I am a bit perplexed by the letter and some of the responses – what’s to say a casual sex encounter can’t turn into something more? By definition if it’s a casual encounter, how would either one of the participants definitively know that feelings wouldn’t develop over time? I’m not talking about oxycontin-induced feelings but it is possible that the OP and a “hot, sexy guy” could eventually get to know each other and end up both developing feelings for each other. Several of these posts seem to suggest the “guys I would only sleep with” guys and “potential relationship” guys – why do they have to be mutually exclusive??

59. Curly Girl 59

    Rose: Interesting story. That’s a good point you’re alluding to, there. It’s hard to sum up the differences between cultures because you feel or notice them in a subtle way first, before you can articulate them.

    Here’s how I’d put it (again, speaking generally):

    1) Euro guys take more care with their health, appearance, and their living space; they exercise for health and enjoyment rather than to look cut; they know how to cook, clean, dress, and take care of clothes.
    2) They expect women to be as sexual as men are and pre-/extramarital sex are just what people do, both men and women, in equal measure. So this idea of a woman being a “slut” or her sexual activity affecting her mating prospects is very American (though I do wonder if it didn’t have its roots in Victorian England and the Virgin Queen there–so maybe it’s a phenomenon of
    English-speaking countries? Not 100% sure–but it would be a strange idea in France, Italy, Eastern Europe, etc). Also, not sure why, but the idea of women and aging is different, too, as someone pointed out, and so the whole “marketing” idea re: relationships would just be weird to them.
    3) People don’t move around in their careers as much, and in many countries you pretty much stay in whatever family profession/class level they were born into. So the American preoccupation with “getting ahead” and “making more money” and competing in that way is also strange and considered crude. (This is changing.)
    4) There is more homegeneity in regions there, so you see a lot of ideas, customs, habits in all aspects of life that have a decidedly regional or national flavor–this seems strange and maybe even bigotted to Americans, who have to deal with diversity and inclusion on a daily basis.

    Again, all of this is changing rapidly as globalization spreads new ideas, products, etc. around.

    I suggest that the OP go have a fling with a Euro guy–she’ll have a great, sexy time of it, he won’t think she’s a slut, and she won’t be tempted into fantasies of a forever relationship with him because he’ll probably be going back to his own country to settle down. (A couple years ago I had a gorgeous Turkish neurosurgery resident almost 20 years my junior ask me to be his fling while he was in the U.S. He was afraid, he said, in a situation like that that he would get emotionally attached–no mention of any biochemicals, mind you–he is one of those “odd” guys who also feels emotions during sex–but he said that he needed sex, I needed sex, so why shouldn’t we? I had a guy, but I loved that he was direct about it and respectful. If I were in a different place in my life….yowzah!!!)

    So, go for it, I say. Many yummy solutions to this particular problem!!!

60. delicia 60

    TO clarify – I understand that someone would most likely be put in the “just for fun” category if he/she is married, lives across the country or if the two people have differing religions. But I’m curious, for what other reasons would one discount someone as “not relationship potential” right off the bat?

61. Meli 61

    To Sophie,

    I once had a very illustrative experience with oxcitocyn. I dated a guy who, despite the fact that I really liked him, almost immediately was labelled as “not boyfriend material” because of some irreconcilable differences of values between us. However, he was hot so I went for the sex. It ended up being great sex. I would say, for me, the way it worked it wasn’t a hormonal explosion either. The next day I was quite surprised of how good it had been, and definitely wanted more. By the third time we did it, I was certainly hooked.

    Somehow, I ended up picturing myself being his girlfriend and had a relationship with him because I was so attached to him, despite the fact that we had nothing in common. To me there is only one explanation: I was “dickmatized”! I’ve managed to have successful casual relationships with guys without regretting them or getting attached to the guys but I’ve got my rules now: 1. don’t make casual relations a habit; 2. it must be with someone you don’t like that much; and more importantly 3. keep it a one-timer with each guy.

    At least, it works for me.

62. rose 62

    Curly Girl,

    Love your post in reply to mine, but are you saying all European men are like this? My only experience is actually with French men. I guess I assumed these differences were with men from latin cultures primarily–France, Italy, Spain, yes, but what about Britain?

    “Also, not sure why, but the idea of women and aging is different, too, as someone pointed out”
    Yes, I did notice this in France. Men my age contacted me all the time online; here in the States that is quite rare. Older men usually contact me here…too old.

63. rose 63

    Delicia,

    Regarding your post–”What’s to say a casual sex encounter can’t turn into something more? … Several of these posts seem to suggest the guys I would only sleep with guys and potential relationship guys why do they have to be mutually exclusive??”

    I guess it can turn into something more, although I have no idea on the statistics. I have a friend whose platonic friend fixed her up with a guy basically for a sex buddy. He is bisexual, but she was actually ok with that because bisexual guys turn her on. They started meeting at her house and now they are married!

64. rose 64

    p.s. I have read about something in France they call “la s duction fran aise,” and it is a whole art that both men and women practice. It’s more than just sexual. Well, I can tell you I’ve experienced it and it’s hot. Maybe the Alliance Fran aise needs to add a course on that for American men and women!

65. JB 65

    @delicia #60, one reason that someone would discount somebody as
    “not relationship potential” is if they have children. Some people don’t want to deal with the baggage over the long haul but for a fling they don’t mind as long as the kids don’t get in the way.

66. Selena 66

    When I think hot, sexy, guys who are “not relationship potential” I think obvious players. You can find them anywhere, but particularly at night clubs. I assumed that was what Melanie was referring to in terms of finding a hook-up: “one of those guys… ” who are great to look at, often good in bed, but you know are unlikely to stick around, or make a good partner if they did.

    If you’ve met a few of them they become easy to spot off the bat.

67. Michael 67

    When I think hot, sexy, guys who are “not relationship potential” I think obvious players. You can find them anywhere, but particularly at night clubs. I assumed that was what Melanie was referring to in terms of finding a hook-up: “one of those guys… ” who are great to look at, often good in bed, but you know are unlikely to stick around, or make a good partner if they did.

    If you’ve met a few of them they become easy to spot off the bat.
    So do you like getting together with players?

68. Selena 68

    #67
    No. Do you?

69. starthrower68 69

    I think it is true that modern women can have the hookup and walk away as easily as men because I’ve done it. Not for several years, but I’ve done it. I’ve also been rejected because I’m not interested in having casual sex with someone, and that’s no big deal to me either. A very wise minister said to me once that if you pursue what you don’t need, you’ll get what you don’t want. So, I guess you have to determine if it’s a need or a want.

70. Selena 70

    @Starthrower #69
    “…if you pursue what you don’t need, you’ll get what you don’t want.”

    I like that. It’s tape-to-the-mirror worthy. Thanks for sharing.

71. starthrower68 71

    Thanks, Selena….while I’m aware there is always an exception, I don’t think the majority of hook-ups end well. You’re risking an awful lot for a relatively small pay-off. But that’s just me. Not everyone will have that view, obviously.

72. Honey 72

    I have been thinking about this thread more (everyone’s responses are so interesting!) -

    I think that, now that I’ve had a great relationship, it is the companionship that I would miss the most if single for a great deal of time, not the sex, though I would miss that, too. I think that when I was younger (early 20s) I felt the two were interchangeable (though not the same), and that is why I would have – and often did – feel comfortable seeking casual sex when single.

    More specifically, a casual encounter might give me a “fix” that could get me through a period of loneliness if I were single. Though I didn’t get attached to any of those fellows, it did make me feel good for the moment, and fortify me again to continue my search for “the one.” (Well, if it was good. If it wasn’t good, then it definitely reinvigorated my search as well!)

    Now, however, I don’t think that sex could serve the same function for me. It’s been in the context of a committed relationship for so long that I don’t know if I could go back to looking at it from the perspective that I once had. But then again, I last had sex this morning. Who knows how I would feel or what decision I would make if it had been six months.

    I mean, the BF’s girlfriend hadn’t had sex with him in about six months – which is part of the reason he broke up with her, and part of the reason, I’m sure, that we had sex on our first date!
    .-= Honey’s last blog ….Revelations Part II: What He Said, and The Plan =-.

73. Melanie 73

    Melanie here…

    Lots of interesting posts and comments.

    So I’ve done several coaching sessions with Evan and he’s helped me out tremendously with my dating life, and this was an email I had asked him about a month ago.

    So after he gave me the “green light” to quench my libido… I did.

    After reading all of the different opinions on here and different ways that they took my question, I wanted to clarify. I guess I was asking Evan the question that if I sleep with someone too soon, am I ruining my chances of a relationship with that person if he turns out to be relationship worthy? But at the time.. I did have one person in particular I was considering who I decided WASN’T relationship potential but our chemistry was so strong I was considering him to just sleep with. But in general, I guess I was hoping that there are more guys out there who DON’T THINK like Paul (no offense Paul… I’m just saying that was my fear… that I would encounter men that share your viewpoint of sex too soon).

    Anyways, I ended up meeting someone else that I was interested in… and yes… slept with him right away because my libido had reached its breaking point. But I kind of went into it thinking… “if he judges me for this, he judges me for this, but I really can’t wait any longer”.

    So… I have no idea how things are going to turn out but so far me and the guy I “slept-with-too-soon” has turned out to be one of the most respectful, kindest, most thoughtful guys I have met in years. He sends me flowers, plans dates around MY schedule, does all sorts of random romantic gestures.

    So yeah, we slept together right from the beginning and so far, it’s exceeding my wildest expecations. So I don’t know what to make of the whole waiting-for-sex thing. Again, don’t know what’s going to happen but it sure didn’t seem to effect anything negatively, that’s for sure.

    Anyways, just wanted to provide an update from the OP

74. Michael 74

    #67
    No. Do you?
    Only if I understand that it is casual.

    I do know that some people reserve sex for serious relationships; they might not want to get together with players.

75. Michael 75

    You’re risking an awful lot for a relatively small pay-off.
    What exactly is being risked?

76. A-L 76

    Thanks for the update Melanie. It’s always nice to hear from the OP to see how things turned out. Good luck with your budding relationship!

77. delicia 77

    Wow, Melanie, thanks for the update. If a guy judges a girl for sleeping with him too soon, that is a HUGE red flag and I’m glad that your story shows that not all guys are hypocritical in that regard. Best of luck to you. xo

78. delicia 78

    Re-reading Paul’s post … “either you’re a good girl or you’re a slut. it’s that simple” is a repulsive statement that is offensive to women AND men. I hope I never encounter someone with that attitude in my dating endeavors. Pathetic.

79. Steve 79

    @ 78

    The way I see it, if a person believes there is nothing wrong with sex, then they don’t have a need to use pejoratives to refer to people who actually like to do it..

80. delicia 80

    @79 – what I was referring to was Paul’s hypocritical, close-minded and disrespectful statement. I know Evan always says it’s not fair but how can a guy criticize a girl for sleeping together too soon when he obviously was part of the act himself? I fail to see the rationale there.

81. Michael 81

    In most places, virginity is a stigma.

82. JB 82

    Well, we still have no idea how old Melanie is and what’s with this “my libido had reached its breaking point.” Don’t people know how to masturbate? There are no “breaking points” …lol. You’re not going to explode or lose your mind if you don’t have a man right now. I haven’t had sex since November and I’ve been dating a woman 3 1/2 weeks right now (about 10 dates). Gee….I wonder where MY libido’s breaking point is?? I’m like George Costanza, I’m a “sexual camel” but I certainly won’t win any “contests” if I’m left “alone”….too long.

83. Starting Over 83

    I’m a guy who’s ended a monogamous relationship of several decades, and I think I’d not judge you as though I’m licking somebody else’s lollipop, Melanie. That’s probably not a realistic fear if that’s what you were worried about, and if I wouldn’t feel that way as a man who has a lot less experience with a variety of partners than most men and women do, then it seems to me likely that it wouldn’t be an issue for most men.

    Just as a different perspective to offer you, one that I think seems to resonate with EMK’s observations, I’d feel confused by the intensity of sex too early in a relationship. The reason is that I’ve been in an LTR for so long, and value the companionship aspect of relationships as much as I do sexual intimacy, so I’d wonder if it’s really me you’re interested in. Maybe most men, even those who’ve had lots of partners, would feel that way, too. How can you “know” me after a single date, such that you’d sleep with me? How do I know if we can pleasure each other in other ways?

    Maybe it’s because I see sex as an investment of myself in another person. It’s a very intimate way of giving of myself, and a very special gift I receive from another. Maybe it’s because I prefer to be in an LTR because that’s the devil I know. If a woman slept with me too soon, I’d wonder whether she’d find it just as easy to sleep with someone else who has the right anatomy and chemistry. I’d wonder if it’s even anything about “me” that attracted her to me.

    It’d be a nagging doubt for me, that I’d very likely overcome as I knew her better, to have sex too soon. Then again, since I’d be one of the two having sex, it’s probably because I’ve seen qualities in the woman that are worth investing myself in emotionally.

    It seems to me that people want to feel “special” to a person with whom they are intimate with. I think that all the comments above notwithstanding, if sex is just a “need” and not a way to make our partner feel special and to show we’re investing in a relationship with them, I think it loses a bit of its power and its ability to help us feel satisfied with our relationships.

    My own opinion is then that it’s best to wait until you know a person well enough to have satisfied them and to have been satisfied by them in other ways than sex, before having sex. Get to “know” them. That will be the advice I’ll be following myself.

84. Steve 84

    @80

    Delicia, people calling women “sluts” for sleeping around and men “players” for sleeping around. Neither term has a positive connotation and both terms are contradictory with the belief that there is nothing morally wrong with casual sex.

85. Honey 85

    @ Steve # 84, I disagree about the connotations. “Slut” implies that the woman can’t help herself and “player” implies, well, more than implies actually, playing a game, not taking a woman seriously.

    They both have extremely negative implications. Personally, I just call people who have casual sex…people.
    .-= Honey’s last blog ….Revelations Part II: What He Said, and The Plan =-.

86. Steven 86

    Interesting question…

    When I was young, I was, on occasion, made to “wait for sex” and I did. As the years went by, I realized that the same “women’ who made me wait, didn’t always make other guys wait which was a wake up call.

    People want to have sex so if a I date a woman who isn’t giving sex to me, I’m betting she’s giving it to someone else. That’s not a problem, I just don’t want to waste my time in that woman – note, I didn’t say that “kind” of woman because in my experience, most women are the “kind” of women.

87. Ruby 87

    I really don’t think you can ruin a relationship by sleeping with someone too soon, if both parties are truly into each other, although I do think that sleeping with someone on the first date isn’t a great idea. For me, the best reason to wait is because I’m simply more comfortable getting to know someone a bit first before sleeping with them. I know they’re going to call me, and I know they genuinely care about me as a person. I can’t get that from a stranger. If someone isn’t troubled by that, fine.

    I’ve known couples who slept together on the first date, who are still together 20 years later, and some who waited six months and are still together. It’s more about what you are looking for and are comfortable with.

88. Steven 88

    Melanie,

    People are defined by what they do; look pretty, speak well, keep promises, work hard. These things make people want other people.

    If you have what people want, they’ll pursue you. If you don’t, they won’t.

    Relationships are all about not getting left behind. Men don’t want women who sleep around because they deem them untrustworthy. And that’s why women who sleep around don’t broadcast the fact.

    Trust is a pretty big thing in relationships. If you want LTR with a guy who will trust you, practice being trustworthy…

89. Selena 89

    My credo is a variation of Ruby’s. If two people are into each other it isn’t going to matter how soon they sleep together. How soon isn’t going to matter either if they aren’t into each other.

    If you are someone who doesn’t want to sleep with someone who isn’t into you (and will presumably dump you after sex), you are better off getting to know that person a bit first. It’s not the number of dates, but rather spending enough time together to get that sense the attraction is more than sex and sex only.

    It’s cool Melanie’s situation is working out for her. Happens that way sometimes. But she was also prepared for it NOT to work out that way. Which also happens. Alot.

90. Selena 90

    I think of a “player” as someone who leads a woman to believe she is special when really his interest in her begins and ends with sex and nothing else. I’m not sure many women do this with men…probably because they don’t have to.

    Slut? I tend to think of as a woman who deliberately goes after men in committed relationships for the challenge of it.

    With both player and slut it’s more about conquest than it is about being upfront about enjoying casual sex. Just my take, shrug.

91. Steve 91

    @90

    The terms “slut” and “player” exist because people do not fully believe that causal sex is morally okay.

    If they did women wouldn’t be called sluts. Men who just wanted sex wouldn’t be called players. They wouldn’t have to lie to women to get into bed. It would be a matter of introductions, some conversation and a straight forward proposition.

92. Honey 92

    I think that the terms “slut” and “player” say more about the person using the term than they do about the person the word is being used to describe.

    I might use the term player as I described it in #85 to describe a man or a woman…someone who is in sex just for sex and who will do/say things to obtain it that they know will eventually hurt the other person.

    FWIW, I’ve also heard many, many guys called sluts.
    .-= Honey’s last blog ….Revelations Part II: What He Said, and The Plan =-.

93. Selena 93

    @#91
    But it isn’t a matter of introductions, some conversation, and a straight forward proposition in every case is it? Hence the pejorative terms when people feel they have been used, or “played”.

94. Steve 94

    @93

    That is my point exactly. If people didn’t believe sex was morally wrong under the surface people wouldn’t have to play other people to get sex.

    They would just meet, have some conversation and get to it.

    The fact that underground belief exists is why that doesn’t happen for most pairings. That thinking “creates” “players” and “sluts”.

95. mic 95

    It’s possible that cultural differences exist in part because of region-specific differences in oxytocin. For example, maybe, because of diet or genetics, American women have more oxytocin than women from various European countries. What is believed to be fact is casual sex lowering oxytocin sensitivity, so that the woman who has been sleeping with several different men will not get bonded as easily had she been celibate. By the way, that could mean that, alternatively, culture helps determine oxytocin levels. Concerning the impact of the hormone, it is likely that it affects perception of personality characteristics, much like the halo effect of physical attractiveness and making it potentially very disruptive regarding serious relationships.

96. starthrower68 96

    Michael @ 75,

    What is being risked? In your opinion, probably nothing. I think differently but there’s no point in spelling it out because most everyone has their mind made up.

97. starthrower68 97

    Steven @ 86,

    I’m trying to decide if those comments are for real, or it’s designed to get an argument started. Now THAT is an interesting question.

98. Selena 98

    @94
    No it isn’t your point exactly. People don’t necessarily believe sex is morally wrong under the surface. Some people want emotional attachment to go along with the sex. Need it even. A “player” or “slut”, might describe someone who dangles the possibility of attachment when they don’t feel it, or want it. Do they think sex is morally wrong under the surface? Probably not. They have learned though that other people value attachment and play along in order to get the sex.

99. Kenley 99

    The major difference I see between a “player” and a “slut” is that a player is considered a man who uses women — many times unsuspecting women. A slut — in my circles – isn’t a seen as a woman who uses men for sex, it’s a woman who is used by men. I guess there is an underlying belief that women who have casual sex really aren’t benefitting themselves, but they are benefiting men. Moreover, many women consider it a challenge to tame a player and make him their own. And as many guys have said on this blog, most guys — even the young ones — don’t really want anything long term with a woman they know to be a slut. While it is true that some women don’t want a guy who has slept with lots of women, I believe that women are much more harshly penalized for engaging in casual sex with many partners than are men.

100. sophie 100

     To Diana,

     To be honest, for me, having a FWB is not so much to guard against falling in love with the wrong person but more to ensure I don’t get drawn into any relationships simply to satisfy my own sexual needs when the other person may feel more.

     I fall in love very rarely but have quite a high sex drive and have found in the past that if I hadn’t had sex for a while I was more likely to get myself into a relationship with someone who I instinctively felt I wasn’t going to fall in love with simply because the sexual desire was strong. If I felt a strong attraction for the person I would tell myself something more might develop even when I knew it was unlikely and ultimately, some of the guys I had relationships with ended up getting hurt, which wasn’t nice because they were good people. I suppose these relationships also diverted me from my search for the one.

     Now I am having regular sex it is far easier for me to tell someone in the early stages that I don’t think they are right for me, and I thus don’t get drawn into things that ultimately go nowhere quite so often and also don’t end up hurting people unnecessarily. I only get into relationships now when I see strong potential that something stronger than attraction might develop for me.

     However, I think there is something in what you are saying; I think its possible that for some people, having a source of casual sex may help them stop themselves from falling for the wrong person, (for people who fall in love more frequently than I do anyway!) I do find that I tend to be slightly blind to a guy’s faults if I am strongly attracted to him and have yet to sleep with him (and haven’t slept with anyone else for a while either). I tend to overlook certain flaws and just focus on the pleasure of the attraction and while this doesn’t usually result in me falling in love, I can see why it might do for people who are more prone to developing stronger feelings for the opposite sex! It tends to be after sex that I begin to become properly aware of someone’s faults unless I am having regular sex already in which case I feel my brain tends to function slightly better and I am more tuned in to a man’s faults from the outset! Sexual cravings do a lot to cloud good judgement in my opinion!

     In fact, I think there is an analogy to be drawn with grocery shopping here! People often say it is a bad idea to do your weekly grocery shop when you are hungry. Your carefully drawn up list, which was compiled based on what you actually need and is healthy goes out the window and you end up buying all sorts of rubbish that is very tasty but not particularly good for you in the long term. In my opinion, choosing a life partner while in such a state of sexual hunger or even sexual starvation is similarly unadvisable!

101. Michael 101

     I guess there is an underlying belief that women who have casual sex really aren’t benefitting themselves, but they are benefiting men.
     This implies that women do not like sex, and have to be manipulated into cooperating.

102. Brett 102

     Sex before love doesn’t work, we are not engineered to have sex just to have sex. The people that say they can have sex without any emotion involved in it are not normal, they’ve been conditioned to be like that over time. You are not born that way and becoming like that is not a part of normal human development, e.g., a part of puberty. Sex is best saved for a loving relationship for so many reasons. I would not want a relationship with a woman that has slept around a lot.

103. sophie 103

     To Diana again, you asked about my FWBs and whether they started and are ultimately sustained by physical attraction.

     To be honest, a lot of the guys who became FWBs started out as either relationships or potential relationships. I knew both that I was physically attracted to these men but also that I liked them as people and enjoyed their company. So they were probably sustained both by physical attraction but also by genuine affection, support and friendship. When the sex ended (if one or other of us went into a relationship for example) the friendship didn’t so I am still in touch with most of these guys although not to the same extent.

     To Meli, interestingly, generally speaking I seem to have the exact opposite approach to you when it comes to casual agreements! My rules are (1) I always make casual relationships a habit, if I don’t have a constant source of sex I find myself getting into relationships I probably shouldn’t be getting into. (2) I have to like the guy as a person (I don’t respect people I don’t like and I’m not attracted to people I don’t respect) and (3) I far prefer arrangements that have some longevity! If the sex is good and I’m fairly sure I’m not going to fall in love and get hurt, it seems natural to want it to continue up until the point that one or other party meets someone they think they could have something more with. But this is one of the advantages of not falling in love easily (there are many disadvantages!). Unlike you, I have never felt any of the effects of oxytocin! I’m glad you have found a way that works for you though! You know enough about yourself to make sure you’re casual arrangements are fun but don’t ultimately cause you any heartache!

104. starthrower68 104

     Michael 101,

     What I believe is being said there is that women are more likely to become emotionally involved after sex than men; is that always the case? No, because we have raised a generation of women who can compartmentalize as well as many men. Whether or not a woman likes sex is not the issue; if she gets hurt because she cannot separate sex from emotions, and the guy disappears, then she’s not benefitting.

105. Michael 105

     I would not want a relationship with a woman that has slept around a lot.
     And where, aside from the ranks of those who have not yet reached their sixteenth birthday, can you find such women?

     I am 31; every single woman my age has had sex.

106. Joe 106

     Golf applause for Brett, for toeing the party line…

107. Honey 107

     Given the direction the conversation has taken, I have to ask – how on earth would you have any idea how many people someone has slept with?

     Personally I would never answer that question, even if I knew the answer – which I don’t.
     .-= Honey’s last blog ….Revelations Part III: What’s Your Fighting Style? =-.

108. Steve 108

     Brett Aug 19th 2009 at 08:16 am 102
     Sex before love doesn’t work, we are not engineered to have sex just to have sex.

     Looks the engineer slipped in some features outside of the specs.

109. Jennifer 109

     @Michael #105- Surely you jest. I don’t think it’s going out on a limb to say that the majority of women have had sex by age 31 but ALL? Really?

     If you are interested in meeting virgins, you may want to rethink where you hang out. I don’t know if you hang out in bars and clubs or not, but i’d say your chances are better of meeting a virgin (or close to it) at church singles events or online sites geared towards various religious groups or something like that. Because while it’s not always the case, chances are good that if a woman is 31 and a virgin, she is more religious than your average chick.

110. Jennifer 110

     Sleeping around ‘a lot’ is so very subjective too. To some people a lot is 10, to others it’s 50 to still others it’s 100. For some 10 would be acceptable but only if all 10 were boyfriends, to others any number of one night stands of FWB arrangements would be too many.

     I say all of that to say, i’d venture a guess that people are looking for someone with compatable values rather than a magic number, and using metrics such as the number of people someone has slept with is often not an accurate nor reliable indicator of those values.

111. Selena 111

     @Joe #106

     “Golf applause” – I love that.

112. mic 112

     “The best women and men generally get married young and stay married for life.”

     “Young” is vague, but the statement is true enough, for reasonably attractive people. People who have had very little sex by, say, age 30 tend to be religious, virtually asexual, and/or rather physically unattractivene.

113. Steven 113

     starthrower68 @ 97
     I did not intend to start an argument at all, so I wonder what (specifically) it was about my comment that you found suggestive of that.

     In courting, deception is more common than most people realize. Men are deceived every day by women who have no sexual interest in them but lead them on. I recently heard the woman who lives downstairs say “but I tried to tell him…” as she continued to let the poor sap drive her to the airport, watch her dog, and suffer all manner of other exploitations; needless to say, she’s not interested in changing because she has no interest in being trustworthy at the expense of losing the benefits of her little deception(s). Ironically, I’d respect her if she treated sex as a commodity to be traded – at least that would forthright. What I find so unattractive isn’t people who sleep around, but people who exploit others.

     Men generally (generally) don’t do that one-on-one. Men generally don’t ask women to dinner if they’re not sexually attracted to them. Women accept diner dates (receive gift and favors) all the time from men they have no sexual interest in.

     Good women, like good men, detest lies and deceit in others. The fact that evolutionary biology has made us unable to adequately defend against deceit in the mating game is, of course, by design…

     The best women and men generally get married young and stay married for life.

     Agree or disagree, there is no argument.

114. Steve 114

     @110

     If good compatibility, trust, communication, etc. is there, I would prefer a woman who has had a number of partners. I would much rather be with someone who knows what she is doing.

115. starthrower68 115

     All these generalities about who does what and when are very interesting. Bottom line is this: if a man goes out and has sex with as many women as he can, wants to, or whatever, and then expects a woman to remain pure, that problem is his not hers. Like attracts like.

116. Melanie 116

     Don’t you think it all comes down to sex drive too?

     Some girls, like Sophie and myself, have a VERY high sex drive… so when I was going LOOOOOOOOONG stretches of time without sex… it’s like I became grumpy and uptight and high strung and not myself.

     Lets face it, many men lose their sex drive as they get older. Not all… but many. And many many women that I’ve talked to… their sex drive seems to INCREASE as they age.

     I think me and this guy are hitting it off so well because we both have such incredibly high sex drives. My ex-boyfriend of 2 years was the exact same age as the guy I’m dating now (42) and had ZERO sex drive. He could take it or leave it all the time and I was incredibly sexually frustrated dating him, and it’s the reason I’ve chosen to not go back to him even though he’s wanted me to.

     So I think it’s a matter of finding someone who has the same level of interest in sex as you do. Some people are okay with 1 to 3 times a week. Others like it twice a day. Maybe some of these people that are waiting for sex…it isn’t a huge priority to them?? To me it’s VEEEERY important.

117. Brett 117

     I’m used to debating you casual sex, one night standers, I can do this all day long, and I never lose the debate. It’s perfectly normal not to want to pursue a relationship with a sexually promiscuous woman, plenty of guys feel that way. It’s just that the casual sex crowd try to attack anyone that feels that way, and try to make sure their voice is the loudest one heard. They do that because they actually have a lot of issues of their own and they can’t handle it that people disagree with their views of sex. If they were secure in their sexuality they wouldn’t care what someone else’s views are. They would just seek out people that have the same views as them and not worry about it.

118. Brett 118

     Michael @105 – Nowhere did I say I would only pursue a relationship with a virgin.

     Joe @106 – A useless post adding nothing to the discussion. Another person that can’t stand it that other people don’t use their body as an amusement park. Huge indicator of insecurity.

     Honey @107 – That’s easy, you ask, it’s just as normal as any other subject you would have with someone you’re considering a long term relationship with. Again in my experience, only people in the casual sex crowd have issues with this conversation, which points to much deeper issues.

     Steve @108 – Another useless post similar to Joe’s.

     Jennifer @110 – Finally, a reasonable post, now here we have someone that get’s the issue.

119. Brett 119

     One extra thought on Michael’s post, the # of young women abstaining from sex until they are older is becoming greater every year, google it. The people that had children in the early 90′s when it was still if-it-feels-good-do-it saw many of the repurcussions of their promiscuity and have passed their knowledge on to their children.

120. Honey 120

     @ Brett, #117 – I don’t know why anyone would ask that question in the first place, as it seems a little insecure to care about it in the first place.

     As someone who’s been happily in a monogamous relationship for over 3 years, and as someone who said in this very thread that I don’t think I would have casual sex again if I did end up single, I don’t really think of myself as one of the “casual sex crowd.”

     I just don’t think it’s ever any anyone else’s business who you’ve slept with, how many people they’ve slept with – as long as your STD panels are recent and clean, that’s all of the information about my sexual past that’s necessary to discuss with any current partners.
     .-= Honey’s last blog ….Revelations Part III: What’s Your Fighting Style? =-.

121. Honey 121

     Ugh – in the first place, said twice in the same sentence. Proofreading on the internet gets me every time.
     .-= Honey’s last blog ….Revelations Part III: What’s Your Fighting Style? =-.

122. Steve 122

     @Brett, for someone complaining about insecurity and for being attacked about his views you don’t see the irony of being the author post #117. Ahem!

123. Steve 123

     @Melanie #115

     Twice a day? Heck, I’m up for trying anything, but I think I would have to give up going to the gym on weeknights or get up an hour earlier to fit some of it in before work .

124. Selena 124

     I rather think Brett resembles his own post #116. If secure in one’s own view of sexuality, why continue to debate the position? With everyone who posts a different view?

     Is it “…because they actually have a lot of issues of their own and they can’t handle it that people disagree with their views of sex” ? Pots & kettles – which is blacker? Hmm.

125. starthrower68 125

     @ Steven #112:

     Your question:

     I did not intend to start an argument at all, so I wonder what (specifically) it was about my comment that you found suggestive of that.

     I’ll use your words to answer your question:

     People want to have sex so if a I date a woman who isn’t giving sex to me, I’m betting she’s giving it to someone else. That’s not a problem, I just don’t want to waste my time in that woman note, I didn’t say that kind of woman because in my experience, most women are the kind of women.

     The phrase “most women are the “kind” of women” is very telling. So in other words, any woman not having sex with you is “that kind” of woman? But if you didn’t want to have sex with one woman and were having it with another, that would be alright? Nice.

126. Brett 126

     Honey @120 – Again insecurity is always the label thrown around by the high-number-of-partners casual sex crowd. I’ve seen it before in blogs on this issue. What’s insecure is being terrified of the subject. I would not pursue a long term relationship with a woman that can’t even remember how many guys she’s been with (post107) I’m sorry that would just truly be a dealbreaker for me. It goes against everything I believe in. That’s not to say I’m judging you, just explaining why the subject would be important to someone like me. I only bring that up because you stated the famous line that # of partners doesn’t matter. It’s true, most guys are sluts too so most wouldn’t care, and have no right to label a woman a slut. Some guys can label a woman that though.

     steve&selena – yeah that’s nice, you haven’t refuted anything I said though. I don’t think I’m insecure for replying to a few of you hecklers, namely selena, steve and Joe with the lame golfclap, “toeing(??) the party line” stuff. Who I assume are all part of the casual sex, one night stand don’t ask don’t tell slut crowd.

127. starthrower68 127

     Brett @ 117,

     I would respectfully submit to you that the casual sex crowd are not insecure as much as it is the “herd” mentality. I mean no insult by saying that, but it’s the whole “everybody’s doing it” mindset. It’s kind of like when we were in high school. If all the “cool” kids were wearing Nikes, but you were one of the odd kids wearing shoes from say, K-Mart, then there was something wrong with you. That’s all it is. Personally, I’ve always been ok with being one of the outcasts. )

128. Steven 128

     Honey @ 120
     “I just don’t think it’s ever any anyone else’s business who you’ve slept with, how many people they’ve slept with as long as your STD panels are recent and clean, that’s all of the information about my sexual past that’s necessary to discuss with any current partners.”

     You can give without loving but you can’t love without giving…

129. Steven 129

     starthrower68 @ 125

     “@ Steven #112
     The phrase most women are the kind of women is very telling. So in other words, any woman not having sex with you ais that kind of woman? But if you didn’t want to have sex with one woman and were having it with another, that would be alright? Nice.”

     starthrower68, there’s a fundamental difference between men and women and that’s the distinction you’re missing/ignoring. Men show their ability and willingness to support a woman as a vehicle to get laid, women don’t exchange the same resources in that endeavor.

     Is it “Nice” to say most guys want to get laid, or is it just being honest? Most (not all) young women are tricksters, perhaps not nice, but none the less true. Certainly women won’t cop to being con artists in the realm of love, but, truth be told, that’s how they’ve survived for the past million years.

     Guys have historically (generally) been the providers. Guys have, historically, provided for women in the hope and expectation of getting laid – passing on their genes. Women, on the other hand, know who’s getting laid and who isn’t but won’t tip their hand…

     Historically (again) women haven’t (if they wanted to survive) had the luxury of being honest to the guys who won’t be getting the poon tang, because, the guys who are getting it (generally) aren’t the best providers – they hit and run. What this means, is that nature has self-selected for women who are deceitful. Women bang the guys they like and get supported by the guys they don’t; a bit of a harsh exaggeration, but nonetheless, essentially true.

     The upside is for the guys the women want and will bang for free and for the guys that have figured it out, made a few bucks and can trade the users like playing cards; those guyes are the winners. The rest of the field is made up of girls who are chasing the guys they want and the losers (not being mean) who chase the girls who are banging the pretty boys (but not having a chance to keeping them), and the cream of the crop who are looking for rubies among rocks.

     Perhaps that’s not “Nice”, but then nature isn’t about being nice, nature is about survival…

130. Brett 130

     steven @112 – A woman only has that power over you if you let her. If you’re interested in finding a good woman for a relationship and not a slut you don’t encounter these types of women, at least not near as often. I agree with your overall assessment though. I respect the type of women you’re talking about the least, their game is truly sinister. You’re partially eluding to the nice guy syndrome, she takes the nice guy for a ride financially, then goes and bangs some other dude that probably treats her like crap. Either way she’s a slut and this is one of the problems with chasing p****Y and the casual sex crowd in general. I’m out of time but I’ll reply to some of the later posts such as yours that were interesting tomorrow.

131. Steve 131

     #126Brett Aug 19th 2009 at 07:36 pm 126
     Honey @120 Again insecurity is always the label thrown around by the high-number-of-partners casual sex crowd.

     I haven’t read every word of every last comment in this thread, but I think you were the first person to use that term ( at least repeatedly )

     I’ve seen it before in blogs on this issue. What’s insecure is being terrified of the subject.

     Isn’t that odd that you are engaging in this “debate” over and over again on multiple web sites? You are free to live your life as you chose, so why bother?

     
     steve&selena yeah that’s nice, you haven’t refuted anything I said though. I don’t think I’m insecure for replying to a few of you hecklers,
     

     I wasn’t refuting you and I wasn’t heckling you. It is called light hearted humor.

     
     Who I assume are all part of the casual sex, one night stand don’t ask don’t tell slut crowd.
     

     Now, this is what I and probably Selena meant. You mention in several posts how people become personally insulting to you when they disagree with what you have to say. Yet, you just called us the “slut” crowd.

     Just so there is no mistake in the sentence after the next one I will make my *first* insult directed at you. It isn’t because of your views about casual sex, it is about your rigid, judgmental attitude and your needlessly rude way of expressing yourself.

     Isn’t there an anti-health care mob somewhere waiting you?

132. Selena 132

     @#126

     Refute what? You are repeatedly proving that YOU fit the profile you described in post #116.

     As far as the assumptions you are making about me, you are incorrect. I won’t bother repeating the tiresome adage about “assuming” – suffice it to say, you don’t ‘win’ debates, you get dismissed from them.

133. starthrower68 133

     I can’t argue with what you say Steven. It’s the tone I don’t like. Now I’m sorry if you’ve been a victim of these “hit and run” types; but I don’t believe “that type” of woman is in as big a supply as you would have us believe.

134. Ruby 134

     Steve #112

     “The best women and men generally get married young and stay married for life.

     Agree or disagree, there is no argument.”

     I’ll argue that the above is a bit of a generalization. Not everyone who marries young and stays married for life is happy, and/or physically attractive. Certainly there are those who don’t have the confidence/self-esteem to leave an unhappy marriage.

     Not all of us develop and mature at exactly the same rate.

     Melanie #115

     “Maybe some of these people that are waiting for sex it isn’t a huge priority to them??”

     Just because someone chooses to wait for a more serious relationship before having sex doesn’t imply a low sex drive. Some would prefer masturbation to having a f*ck-buddy.

     Lots of generalizations flying about here!

135. Ruby 135

     Brett #126

     “It’s true, most guys are sluts too so most wouldn’t care, and have no right to label a woman a slut. Some guys can label a woman that though.”

     And I guess that guy is you.

136. starthrower68 136

     Ruby,

     Generalizations are made as the result of limited critical thinking skills. There are a lot of people on here who can have a good debate without generalizing or vitriol. Some, not so much.

137. Brett 137

     Steve I brought up that insecurity word because that’s the usual word the casual sex crowd one-night-stand sluts have to use when the people that don’t believe in casual sex come around. I didn’t say anyone on this blog used the word. I like talking about this subject which is why I’ve talked about it before on other websites. Partially because there are so many myths, stereotypes and generalizations thrown around when this subject comes up, such as the sex drive myth. I spotted that in about two seconds on this blog.

     Selena I don’t know what you’re babbling about I’m just trying to talk about the subject without all the one-night-stand sluts ganging up on me which is what they usually have to do to feel better about themselves. I still stand by what I said @116 btw.

     Ruby yeah I use the term slut and whore both without shame, for men and women both. I think most women would agree it’s usually a term saved for them, and men for some reason get a pass.

138. mic 138

     The comments might be way off the mark as to why women have casual sex. (Why men have casual sex is obvious.)
     http://www.physorg.com/news169201382.html
     An important piece of the puzzle is self-rated physical attractiveness vs. the other person’s perceived attractiveness – it needs more study.

139. Steven 139

     Brett @ 130

     “steven @112 A woman only has that power over you if you let her.”

     Perhaps, but genetics, male rank, age and temperament play a role in the ability of a male not to “let” her…

     “If you’re interested in finding a good woman for a relationship and not a slut you don’t encounter these types of women, at least not near as often.”

     It’s not sluts (whatever that means) that concern me but narcissists.

140. Honey 140

     @ mic, #138 – thanks for the link! That does seem to poke holes in one of the other popular theories on this board, that men go for looks and women go for status/prestige/wealth.

     Wouldn’t it be interesting to conduct the same study but instead of going by looks, you could classify the hypothetical people as poor, moderately wealthy, and exceptionally wealthy?

     Then you could conduct ANOTHER study where you matched each category of looks with each category of wealth, to see where each gender went with that.

     Thinking makes me happy! This is awesome.
     .-= Honey’s last blog ….Revelations Part III: What’s Your Fighting Style? =-.

141. Steven 141

     starthrower68 @ 133
     “I can’t argue with what you say Steven. It’s the tone I don’t like.”

     Please pardon my tone; it’s meant only towards candor.

     “Now I’m sorry if you’ve been a victim of these hit and run types;”

     At times I’ve been a victim, at times, a volunteer. Neither of which I’m particularly proud.

     “but I don’t believe that type of woman is in as big a supply as you would have us believe.”

     In the aggregate, 30>40% of the female population is how many I believe fall into that category. Among genetic celebrities, I’d expect it to be 90% or above.

     About the same number (I believe) of males exploit females based on their rank; males and females are exploited by the ranks above, not by those below.

     A person’s looks and desirability as well as age relate to their propensity to exploit.

142. Steven 142

     Ruby @ 134

     Steve #112

     The best women and men generally get married young and stay married for life…

     “Not everyone who marries young and stays married for life is happy, and/or physically attractive.”

     True, only the best women and men do, and are:)

     What makes those women and men the best, is that they are that, not that other people were mistaken in their beliefs about those who aren’t.

     “Certainly there are those who don’t have the confidence/self-esteem to leave an unhappy marriage.”

     Certainly.

143. starthrower68 143

     Steven, I may be “splitting frog hairs” so to speak, but if we’re talking about beautiful females in the 20-35 year old range, that’s still not a huge percentage of the female population, though it may seem that way if that’s what one is pursuing. I’m not going to go into the debate of whether it’s right or wrong to be attracted to “10′s” because that’s off topic. But I concede to you on your last point. I will also say that there are consequences to pursuing looks without taking character development into consideration.

144. Steven 144

     Honey @ 140

     “@ mic, #138 thanks for the link! That does seem to poke holes in one of the other popular theories on this board, that men go for looks and women go for status/prestige/wealth.”

     Actually, it reinforces it: http://www.stlouisfed.org/newsroom/news_releases/newsrelease.cfm?ArticleID=1153E4D1C0DBD635FEA23096907A7B0B

     Women are attracted to good looking men because of the appeal those likely resources hold.

145. Honey 145

     @ Steven, #144 – I’ve read about that study, too.

     I was referring more to the idea that men go after extremely good-looking women – putting these two findings together does have some interesting implications as far as what partners women choose, but it just makes men a mystery.
     .-= Honey’s last blog ….Revelations Part III: What’s Your Fighting Style? =-.

146. starthrower68 146

     Steven @ 144,

     We’re all attracted to good looking people. Some of us believe we can have good looking partners, some of us do not, and it’s all in the eye of the beholder anyway. Some of us are concerned with looks only, and some of us are not. It’s all very subjective.

147. Ruby 147

     Steve #142

     “The best women and men generally get married young and stay married for life

     Not everyone who marries young and stays married for life is happy, and/or physically attractive.

     True, only the best women and men do, and are:)”

     I get your point, but what I meant is that’s simply a value judgment and a false assumption. “Best” is a subjective qualifier.

148. Brett 148

     The article mic linked was interesting to read, but pretty much old news. Men looking for casual sex are less choosy because most of them have to be. There are more men looking for casual sex than there are women. So the women that ARE looking for casual sex can afford to be extremely choosy. If a woman wants casual sex why would she choose someone she’s not physically attracted to? She has plenty of options. It doesn’t matter if she’s looking for money too, she can have both. It’s all effected by how attractive the women in question is of course. Extremely attractive women open to having casual sex have their pick of the litter, and many times these are the most manipulative women using sex for leverage or material posessions, among other things. It’s all basically a variant of the 80/20 theory.

     If you’re not overly concerned with chasing chasing p****y you don’t have to worry about any of this stuff and you’ll find a real woman that’s primarily looking for a good man to have a relationship with.

     It’s true a lot of the best women and men are already married by age 25 or so, very sad, but true. It’s one of the reasons I think dating gets harder once you hit 30.

149. Honey 149

     I agree, Ruby there’s some circular reasoning going on here.

     If the definition of “best” is, as implied, fulfilled by marrying young and staying married, then obviously no one else can ever be “the best.”

     If we could identify the qualities that lead people to marry young and to stay married (note: I do not think the qualities that lead people to marry young are necessarily the same qualities that lead people to stay married) then we could begin to have a discussion about whether people who do not marry young and/or do not stay married also possess these qualities, in whole or in part.

     If we cannot identify those qualities, then we are simply talking about one person’s definition. Interestingly, according to the CDC, the younger the wife is at the age of marriage, the more likely it is that the marriage will dissolve:

     http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/ad/ad323.pdf
     .-= Honey’s last blog ….Revelations Part III: What’s Your Fighting Style? =-.

150. Steven 150

     starthrower68 @ 143

     “Steven, I may be splitting frog hairs so to speak, but if we’re talking about beautiful females in the 20-35 year old range, that’s still not a huge percentage of the female population, though it may seem that way if that’s what one is pursuing.”

     For men in the 20 year old and up range who want to start a family but lack a realistic self-evaluation of how they’re perceived by beautiful women, it’s basically the whole population…

     “… I will also say that there are consequences to pursuing looks without taking character development into consideration”

     Agreed, and unless one is exceedingly lucky, very bad consequences…

151. Steven 151

     Honey @ 145

     “I was referring more to the idea that men go after extremely good-looking women putting these two findings together does have some interesting implications as far as what partners women choose, but it just makes men a mystery. ”

     In my experience, most men don’t go after “extremely good-looking women.” Most men go after women with whom they can have a relationship. Yeah, a guy may have sex with a woman if the opportunity presents itself, but I don’t believe they pursue, in earnest, those women. Sex outside of a committed relationship just isn’t worth that effort.

     It’s possible men are a mystery to you because you’re refusing to accept some simple, basic truths… Just a thought.

152. Steven 152

     starthrower68 @ 146

     “We’re all attracted to good looking people. Some of us believe we can have good looking partners, some of us do not, and it’s all in the eye of the beholder anyway.

     The problems begin when people “believe” they can have a “good looking partner” when, in reality, they probably can’t keep, a good looking partner. Which is what I’m guessing yoiu mean when you say “have.”

     “Some of us are concerned with looks only, and some of us are not. It’s all very subjective.”

     Subjective or not, pursuing someone for a long term relationship based only on the quality of their looks is a sure sign of trouble ahead.

     An important part of life is learning to avoid pain.

153. Steven 153

     Ruby @ 147

     True, only the best women and men do, and are:)

     “I get your point, but what I meant is that’s simply a value judgment and a false assumption. Best is a subjective qualifier”

     What is the “false assumption?”

     Perhaps it goes without saying that the best women and men get married young and stay married for life because that model solves so many more problems than the alternatives.

     While “best” may be subjective, most would agree certain traits are better than others; it’s better to be attractive than the plain, better slim than obese, better educated than ignorant, better prudent than reckless, and better hard working than slothful.

     Is it far fetched to conclude people with the preferred qualities are the best?

154. honey 154

     Haha, maybe, Steven! Though I have to admit the vast majority of men on this thread and elsewhere in the relationship-oriented blogging world claim that men go for youth and beauty at all costs, so your claim is in the minority.

     And at least I have the man I’m going to marry figured out
     .-= honey’s last blog ….Revelations Part III: What’s Your Fighting Style? =-.

155. Ruby 155

     Steve #153

     “Is it far fetched to conclude people with the preferred qualities are the best?”

     But those people do not necessarily marry young or at all. I’m not sure what makes you assume that they do.

156. starthrower68 156

     Steven @146,

     I agree, character counts.

157. Steven 157

     Ruby @ 155

     Steve #153

     Is it far fetched to conclude people with the preferred qualities are the best?

     “But those people do not necessarily marry young or at all. I’m not sure what makes you assume that they do.”

     They do simply because if they don’t, they don’t pass the test to be the best. The evidence the best do is not assumed, but rather observed. And they do because that defines the best in the realm of relationships.

     That is no more “circular reasoning” than it would be for an engineer to say the “best” wheel is the roundest, for a doctor to say the “best” health is found in organisms without disease, or for a teacher to say the “best” students are found within the cohort group of those with the highest academic standing.

158. Evan Marc Katz 158

     Hey Steven,

     It’s called deductive reasoning. And it’s patently absurd.

     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deductive_reasoning

     The reason it doesn’t hold is that you’re working under the false premise that the best people marry young. And, by assuming this premise is true, you deduce the rest of your arguments.

     This is like saying “Obamacare is like Fascism”, and then, when others say, “Why?” you say, “Because it’s big government trying to solve problems and big government is inherently bad”.

     This falsely assumes that big government is bad. You may think that, but it’s not inherently true.

     You may think – for some godforsaken reason – that being married at 22 is somehow better, smarter, and nobler – but it’s not. In fact, for a lot of those poor, uneducated, sex-starved folks who’ve never experienced life, it can be a death sentence.

     Illogical arguments may be de rigeur in the media, but they ain’t gonna fly on this blog.

     Welcome.

159. starthrower68 159

     While Steven and I have managed to reach an understanding, I would respectfully submit that marrying young is not a good idea. One barely knows who they are let alone how to correctly assess their mate’s character. We also tend to hold romanticized, idealized notions of marriage at a young age. I’m not saying that older people don’t do this, but I am saying older people have a more life experience and wisdom under their belts. It takes a while to learn that love is more of a decision than a feeling.

160. Honey 160

     Thanks, Evan.

     Starthrower68, I agree with you and would also add that even if you marry the most compatible person you’ve ever met, if you marry super young, you haven’t met enough people to truly know what compatibility means. This is especially true when there is so much growing and changing yet to be done.

     When I was 18 I thought I knew who I would marry. Now, although we are still friends, we are so different that we must only speak of superficial things and shared memories, because our values are so different that we either can’t relate to one another or resort to antagonism. While this dynamic is fine for friends who live 2500 miles apart and share Facebook updates, it would be pretty miserable for a marriage.

     And I don’t think it makes anyone a bad person. I love him and hope he finds someone – I’m just glad it wasn’t me.
     .-= Honey’s last blog ….Revelations Part III: What’s Your Fighting Style? =-.

161. Ruby 161

     Evan #158

     “You may think for some godforsaken reason that being married at 22 is somehow better, smarter, and nobler but it’s not”

     Thanks, Evan, for explaining this better that I was able to. It’s been awhile since I studied logic (college), and could not remember the finer points of deductive reasoning! I would add that perhaps sheer luck plays a part for those people who happen to find and marry their soulmate at 22.

162. Joe 162

     Not to mention that younger people have less earning potential, which leads to an increased likelihood that the children they produce will have fewer resources available to them than children produced by older people.

163. Steven 163

     Evan Marc Katz @158

     “Hey Steven,

     It’s called deductive reasoning. And it’s patently absurd.

     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deductive_reasoning”

     Hi Evan,

     In point of fact, “deductive reasoning” is not “patently absurd; far from it.” Further, and I previously stated, the premise (not assumption) that the best get married young and stay married is an observation which forms the premise. Whether or not one agrees with the premise is completely irrelevant to the validity of the argument.

     “The reason it doesn’t hold is that you’re working under the false premise that the best people marry young. And, by assuming this premise is true, you deduce the rest of your arguments.”

     How do you know that’s what I’m doing?

     Actually, I’m identifying the quality of the tree by its fruit. The best fruit comes from healthy healthy seeds grown in good, fertile ground. This is neither “patently absurd” or an “assumption,” it is, a statistically fact.

     “This is like saying Obamacare is like Fascism, and then, when others say, Why? you say, Because it’s big government trying to solve problems and big government is inherently bad.”

     It is not “like saying” that. It may, however, be like saying the highest incomes (reciprocal of productive output) are found in the best people.

     “This falsely assumes that big government is bad. You may think that, but it’s not inherently true.”

     Again, the premise is a statistically “fact”, not an assumption.
     I say “fact,” because the (my) definition of “best” is that which solves the greatest number of problems and successfully defends against the greatest number of challenges.

     “You may think for some godforsaken reason that being married at 22 is somehow better, smarter, and nobler but it’s not.”

     Evan, without wanting to offend, and while paying due respect to this being your site, I’m seeing a weakness in reading comprehension and ability to reason in your post.

     Here’s the take-away: The “best” get married young because they have solved the social and economic problems of mating by a young age. The “best” stay married, in part, because they realize the tremendous competitive advantage a strong marriage holds over other forms of male/female relationships.

     For those not falling into the “best” category, getting married young can be a disaster because they lack the requesit qualities to both choose the best mate and be the best mate.

     That in no way means people who get married later in life of not at all are losers; they’re just not the “best”.

     “In fact, for a lot of those poor, uneducated, sex-starved folks who’ve never experienced life, it can be a death sentence.”

     Obviously “poor, uneducated, sex-starved folks” are in the pool of the “best” mating material.

     “Welcome.”

     Thank you.

164. mic 164

     These days most people don’t look for long-term relationships. They look for looks, primarily. (They do want certain personality traits, but under the spell of physical attraction, tend to distort them or rearrange priorities. And some people drop even attraction requirements if lonely enough.) Relationships “just happen.”

     The research being done is pointing more and more to the idea that women seek genetic quality over provisioning. They might accept resources as a proxy for genetic quality (rich, unattractive man with attractive young(er) woman has been verified by research) – and it’s hard to become wealthy without looks, intelligence, or other valuable traits – but generally women want more obvious indicators. Meanwhile, they rarely accept men who are very low in status (absolute or relative) and make that judgment through cues such as clothing. The company website mentions that and other basic findings in a key article. Any more questions?

165. Evan Marc Katz 165

     “In order for a deductive argument to be sound, it must not only be valid, the premises must be true as well.”

     All your talk about “best”, Steven, is subjective, not objective. It is not a fact. It is not statistical. It’s your opinion.

     People who marry younger and stay married are not “better” than doctors who don’t couple up until their mid-30s.

     People who marry younger and stay married in unhappy relationships are not “better” than people who realize they made a mistake and get divorced in their 30′s.

     People who marry younger and stay married, having “solved” the problems of mating at a young age are, if anything, luckier, and, perhaps more mature. But then again, maybe not.

     I would submit that that the “best” 23-year-old husband doesn’t know a fraction of what I, or most of my 40-something readers do, about relationships.

     Yet he’s “better” than the rest of us because he put a ring on someone’s finger earlier and stuck to his commitment?

     If that’s what you consider an objective evaluation of the “best” human being, I respectfully think you’re undervaluing a lot of human beings.

166. Brett 166

     I see what you’re saying, Evan, and you’ve given me some food for thought on the whole “the best people married young” subject. You do have to admit, though, once you hit 30, your options go down statistically. The percentage of people that are single/never married goes way down around the age 28 mark. Women get a little boost here because there are more single men around that demographic than there are single/never married women. I’ve looked at the statistics before but I just don’t have the exact numbers on hand at the moment. In my opinion it’s one of the reasons guys in their 30′s often pursue single women in their 20′s still. It’s simply because there is more of them. I know for myself I don’t meet many single women in their 30′s in real life.

167. mic 167

     No, that is because younger women generally have less baggage (aging included). It is not far from the mark to say that 30 is a cut-off point. Research shows that a man who hasn’t married by age 35 is unlikely to ever marry, though with delayed marriage the trend and people fighting aging better, that might change. Also, plenty of people get divorced and return to the market, many of them probably between the ages of 25 and 40. The catch is that many older singles present themselves poorly. Finally, whether it speaks for “quality” or not, marrying young is a better evolutionary strategy, if reproduction is involved. For one thing, aging shows that offspring “quality” is likely to be compromised. That is, assuming, delayed marriage means delayed reproduction; the inclination to sleep around while young and sexy does one’s genes no good if no offspring come of it. So many unanswered questions about appearance and casual sex.

168. mic 168

     Many of those divorced people on the market don’t want to marry any time soon, though, so maybe they don’t count. Online a seemingly attractive segment of older singles does not count, because they are faking their attractiveness or relationship status. The market can be very tough for people who aren’t highly desirable. Profile writing as a boost – good business concept.

169. Steven 169

     Evan Marc Katz @ 165

     “All your talk about best, Steven, is subjective, not objective. It is not a fact. It is not statistical. It’s your opinion.”

     The result of the social subjective perception of mating is that the most valuable mates have the greatest access to resources. This is born out by statistics that show the most desirable women are found in the company of rich and/or handsome men. That also being my opinion is, irrelevant.

     It’s also what I’ve observed over the course of my life. The same as I’ve observed it’s “best” to be healthy, wealthy and wise. But then, that’s my opinion as well.

     Certain things are true by consensus. What is the subjective “best” is determined by consensus. That an individual may disagree and choose otherwise does not change the truth of the consensus. Nor does the individual choosing what is “best” for them. Because a less than best marriage partner may be the best for a less than best female or male, simply doesn’t pass the so what test.

     It is true that older women and men issue children with higher numbers of birth defects. From this, we can see the parent’s youth plays a part in determining how healthy the children from a marriage may be. In the realm of health, best means healthiest. Is that subjective?

     “People who marry younger and stay married are not better than doctors who don’t couple up until their mid-30s.”

     Evan, you keep getting it reversed… It’s not that people who get married young are better, but that the best get married young – it’s the product, not the cause. Most people who get married young are not better, they are average.

     “People who marry younger and stay married in unhappy relationships are not better than people who realize they made a mistake and get divorced in their 30′s.”

     No, they are average. The “best” get married young and stay married in harmonious, loving, supportive relationships; those relationships are evidence of quality mates. By thinking the only thing that makes someone the best is the age at which they marry, misses the point. Here’s the point: The best solve the problems of life early and their solutions prevail. To suggest otherwise, I would suggest, is to engage in confirmation bias.

     “People who marry younger and stay married, having solved the problems of mating at a young age are, if anything, luckier, and, perhaps more mature. But then again, maybe not.”

     Luck and maturity are certainly traits I’d expect to find in the best of mates.

     “I would submit that that the best 23-year-old husband doesn’t know a fraction of what I, or most of my 40-something readers do, about relationships.”

     True, but he probably knows more than you or most of your readers did at age 23…

     “Yet he’s better than the rest of us because he put a ring on someone’s finger earlier and stuck to his commitment?”

     The best don’t enter into the ranks of the best simply by putting a ring on a woman’s finger and sticking to their commitment; the best is so much more. Being the best makes one able to attract the best mate and enter into a stable marriage at an early age. Most people are average and, enter into average relationships with average people. Why is that not obvious?

     “If that’s what you consider an objective evaluation of the best human being, I respectfully think you’re undervaluing a lot of human beings.”

     While the human experience is a wonderful thing, I don’t believe it’s “undervaluing” that experience to recognize some members of the population make better mates than others.
     And if we can accept that some members make better mates than others, it follows that a smaller number, are, the best.

170. honey 170

     I think the underlying assumption here is that marriage is one of (or the) most important aspect(s) of any given human being?

     I would argue that the “best” people are the ones who do the most to promote humanity’s well-being on this earth.

     Since overpopulation is the single greatest problem humankind faces (and the problem from which all our other problems such as climate change, economy, etc. arise), and since we can expect a major systemic correction of this problem in the form of famine and/or pandemic in the next 10-20 years, I would submit that the “best” people are the ones who do not have children and who devote their lives to sustainability efforts and epidemiology.
     .-= honey’s last blog ….TGIF In Honey-Land =-.

171. Michael 171

     Since overpopulation is the single greatest problem humankind faces (and the problem from which all our other problems such as climate change, economy, etc. arise), and since we can expect a major systemic correction of this problem in the form of famine and/or pandemic in the next 10-20 years, I would submit that the best people are the ones who do not have children and who devote their lives to sustainability efforts and epidemiology.
     Overpopulation is not a problem in most places in America.

172. Jennifer 172

     I beleive statistics show that those who marry younger have less formal education than those who choose to marry later (younger being late teens/early 20′s and later being mid/late 20′s). If formal education is an indicator of the “best” people, then that does not support the “best people marry young and stay married” argument.

     I think it’s more prudent and shows more presence of mind to hold off on getting married until at least your late 20′s. Since presence of mind and acting prudently are traits that I (and I would guess a great deal of other people) find desirable, that also does not support the original argument.

     The only thing that can’t be argued here is that the criteria for “best” has a great deal of subjectivity. Along with the fact that questioning a man’s reading comprehension and reasoning skills ON HIS OWN BLOG is rude, at best.

173. Steven 173

     Jennifer @ 172

     “I beleive statistics show that those who marry younger have less formal education than those who choose to marry later (younger being late teens/early 20′s and later being mid/late 20′s).

     That sounds reasonable.

     “If formal education is an indicator of the best people, then that does not support the best people marry young and stay married argument.”

     No, and neither does it contradict it.

     “I think it’s more prudent and shows more presence of mind to hold off on getting married until at least your late 20′s. Since presence of mind and acting prudently are traits that I (and I would guess a great deal of other people) find desirable, that also does not support the original argument.”

     It seems you’re suggesting there is a point at which an individual has sufficient prudence and presence and before which they shouldn’t marry. Further, it seems you’re suggesting you are the arbiter of that point…

     What makes some mates better isn’t that they got married before finishing their education – if they did – or that their prudence and presence of mind had reached capacity. What makes them the best, is the combination of genetic makeup, looks, experiences, environment, temperament and, among other things, their choices. This in no way means they’re worthy of adoration or worship, only that they are what they are.

     “The only thing that can’t be argued here is that the criteria for best has a great deal of subjectivity.”

     The traits required to solve problems and defend against threats are less subjective than you would have people believe.

     “Along with the fact that questioning a man’s reading comprehension and reasoning skills ON HIS OWN BLOG is rude, at best.”

     Yeah, I can be a rude at times but the moderator(s) keep it in check…

174. Selena 174

     So Steven…

     How old are you? And are you married?

175. Michael 175

     I think it’s more prudent and shows more presence of mind to hold off on getting married until at least your late 20′s. Since presence of mind and acting prudently are traits that I (and I would guess a great deal of other people) find desirable, that also does not support the original argument.

     There is another factor to consider.

     I have read that oxytocin, a horomome, can form lasting bonds among people who get into relationships, and that broken relationships impair the ability to form bonds in future relationships. Would not the optimal solution then for people to get married in their teens, so there would be no prior broken relationships that would impair the married couple’s ability to sustain an emotional bond?

176. sophie 176

     I haven’t heard anything about oxytocin and the effects broken relationships can have on future relationships (very interesting Michael!) but I really struggle to believe that encouraging teenage marriage could be the answer!? It would only be the answer if there was a way of ensuring the marriages lasted and there is no way of doing this. Statistically, the younger you get married, the more likely you are to get divorced (in the UK anyway). People getting married in their teens would just have a broken marriage rather than a broken relationship as baggage going into their mid or late twenties. It would make no difference in the large scale of things. Just more divorce fees.

177. sophie 177

     Hmm and furthermore, to add to the “the best people get married young” thing that’s been going on, I can’t see how this works. If its to do with resources, then the “best” men will get married later, they’ll wait until they have gathered more resources so they can “buy” a higher quality of woman. I don’t think it works like this in practice but in this strange theory surely the “best” men won’t marry young, they’ll always wait until they’re “even better”. And I’ve read a lot of studies that show that the more intelligent a woman, the more problems she has in finding a man she wants to be with. So “better”in this regard makes marriage less and not more likely.

178. sophie 178

     Oh yeah, and what is “the sex drive myth” Brett? I think that there is more diversity in the human race than you imagine!

179. Michael 179

     I haven’t heard anything about oxytocin and the effects broken relationships can have on future relationships (very interesting Michael!) but I really struggle to believe that encouraging teenage marriage could be the answer!?
     Several people mentioned this.

180. Brett 180

     You wanna bring up divorce statistics? Let’s talk about how people that don’t shack up before they are married are less likely to get divorced. Google it.

181. Brett 181

     No women that are sexuallly promiscuous when they are young are shown to have trouble throughout their life with relationships for a number of reasons. Same with women that grew up without a father or proper father figure. The latter ties in with the sexual promiscuity often times.

182. Joe 182

     Who are the “best” people? Most attractive? Best earning? Best educated? Most faithful? Most willing to put up?

183. Brett 183

     I definitely wouldn’t call the most attractive woman the best woman. The best women are attractive but still low maintenance, it’s a hard to find combination.

184. Steve 184

     Melanie #73
     So I have no idea how things are going to turn out but so far me and the guy I slept-with-too-soon has turned out to be one of the most respectful, kindest, most thoughtful guys I have met in years. He sends me flowers, plans dates around MY schedule, does all sorts of random romantic gestures.

     Glad our comments didn’t run mental interference and I’m glad it all worked out!

185. Honey 185

     Arguably, being “high maintenance” is an evolutionary development to screen out males who aren’t worthy.

     Thus, men’s preference for a beautiful woman who is not high-maintenance is a sign of insecurity – sort of like an admission that particular male would lose the female if forced to compete with other males. It’s much easier to keep an amazing person around without trying very hard yourself if the other person doesn’t know/believe how amazing they are.

     But then again, maybe not (I don’t believe this, I just think that it’s arguably valid and perhaps worthy of testing/studying in an academic setting). Personally, the most interesting thing would be defining “high-maintenance,” since I’m not sure what that means. Vanity? Inability to empathize?
     .-= Honey’s last blog ….TGIF In Honey-Land =-.

186. Selena 186

     I want to see Brett’s and Michael’s driver’s licenses.

187. Steve 187

     @Honey post #185

     You know I love ya, Honey ( hey!, its your alias ), but making off the cuff suppositions about evolution, backward from a situation, doesn’t sound any less weak when you do it instead of the BBC “science” reporters

188. Steve 188

     Selena Aug 24th 2009 at 09:16 am # 186
     I want to see Brett’s and Michael’s driver’s licenses.

     This is why cougars only look for sex

189. Selena 189

     @#188

     LOL! Obviously.

190. Steven 190

     honey @ 170

     “I think the underlying assumption here is that marriage is one of (or the) most important aspect(s) of any given human being?”

     Hi honey, not sure how to understand “most important”. If we look around, we’ll see the most successful people in most every field are married. Economically, being in a healthy marriage is the killer app when measured side by side to equals in other respects but in different forms of mail/female relationships.

     “I would argue that the best people are the ones who do the most to promote humanity’s well-being on this earth.”

     That augment hinges on something even more difficult to put a metric on than who the best people are.

     “Since overpopulation is the single greatest problem humankind faces (and the problem from which all our other problems such as climate change, economy, etc. arise), and since we can expect a major systemic correction of this problem in the form of famine and/or pandemic in the next 10-20 years, I would submit that the best people are the ones who do not have children and who devote their lives to sustainability efforts and epidemiology.
     honey’s last blog.TGIF In Honey-Land My ComLuv Profile”

     So taken to taken to it’s logical conclusion, no one has kids and we leave the planet intact buy baron of human life; sweet!

191. Steven 191

     Selena @ 174

     “So Steven

     How old are you? And are you married?”

     53. No.

192. Honey 192

     @ Steve 187 – yes, the ridiculousness of bringing evolution into the mix to interpret contemporary romantic relationships is exactly the point I was trying to make. I work with a bunch of evolutionary scientists, and I have never heard any of them make a fraction of the generalizations that we hear bandied about on this board, or for that matter in social situations in general. I don’t really believe any of it, though it does make me think of many many research projects that could be conducted. I focused my dissertation research on how hysteria has been used as biological justification to exclude women from the political system – and how PMS has replaced hysteria for that purpose since the 1950s.

     @ Steven 190 – I’m suggesting that the metric for “best” is not measured in the way that you claim. My metric may be as flawed as yours, but it is certainly not more flawed.

     The fact that poverty exists is proof to me of two things: 1) that capitalism is morally bankrupt as a social system, and 2) that the planet does not have enough resources to support our current population. That goes for the united states as well as elsewhere. IMO, adoption should be mandatory until every single human being on the entire planet has a middle-class standard of living (by U.S. standards).

     Then we should be implementing some sort of population control to bring/keep the world population at a more sustainable level (we are at 6.7 billion at the moment and scientists estimate 2-3 billion is the sustainable level, so there is quite a big reduction that needs to happen before we start panicking that the human race will go extinct).

     And, though it is obvious from my comments, I don’t think socialism is a bad thing and I think that eugenics, if practiced correctly, could be humankind’s salvation.
     .-= Honey’s last blog ….TGIF In Honey-Land =-.

193. Steven 193

     sophie @ 177

     “Hmm and furthermore, to add to the the best people get married young thing that’s been going on, I can’t see how this works. If its to do with resources, then the best men will get married later, they’ll wait until they have gathered more resources so they can buy a higher quality of woman. I don’t think it works like this in practice but in this strange theory surely the best men won’t marry young, they’ll always wait until they’re even better.

     Think of it this way. The perfect 26 year old female will, optimally, want the perfect male. Now, optimal in this regard is in the aggregate. She may “date” a 10 (looks wise) but choose to marry a guy who’s not quite as attractive but has higher social intelligence and earning potential.

     Remember kindergarten show and tell? Well we all want a mate we can introduce and talk to friends about. Sure, “Brad” might be “hawt”, but if he can’t be trusted around your friends and doesn’t work, his total mate value is pretty low.

     I say that to say this: as someone goes through life, their individual resources change in value but the aggregate may (or may not) stay the same. Here’s an example; a woman of 47 is less attractive (all else equal) than a 23 year old woman to a guy who wants to start a family. BUT, if the woman of 47 is a widow with huge knockers who’s husband just left her a 100 million dollar estate, that would certainly (all else equal) tip the scales in her favor.

     Same thing with a guy. A 26 year old woman from an affluent background may wish to find a a 32 year old guy to mate with but if the “right” 41 year old multi millionaire comes along and says all the right things, she’s in. I used money but any characteristic of an individual that indicates mate quality can be used.

     “And I’ve read a lot of studies that show that the more intelligent a woman, the more problems she has in finding a man she wants to be with. So better in this regard makes marriage less and not more likely.”

     What definition of intelligence are you using? The definition of intelligence I use is “the ability to communicate and solve problems. Perhaps the women in the studies you’ve read only have that certain kind of intelligence known as IQ? It seems obvious they don’t have the social intelligence required to solve the mating problems they face so I would hesitate before characterizing them as “intelligent”.

194. Brett 194

     Honey that post about evolution just made no sense to me at all. Men that like attractive women that aren’t high maintenance are insecure? Most men don’t like high maintenance women period, attractive or ugly. Don’t tell me being a woman yourself you don’t know what high maintenance is. I’m sure you’ve had friends that are. Wealthy men complain about gold diggers all the time. The only ones that don’t are the ones that “need” to flaunt their money to attract a woman because they have nothing else to offer. These are the men that are often times the most controlling of course, women are just a trophy to them.

195. Steven 195

     Honey @ 185

     “Arguably, being high maintenance is an evolutionary development to screen out males who aren’t worthy.”

     It’s a way of detecting false signals…

     “Thus, men’s preference for a beautiful woman who is not high-maintenance is a sign of insecurity sort of like an admission that particular male would lose the female if forced to compete with other males.”

     As the story goes, shitty lawyers don’t have Lear jets…

     “It’s much easier to keep an amazing person around without trying very hard yourself if the other person doesn’t know/believe how amazing they are.”

     If they don’t know how amazing they are, perhaps they’re not. It’s a good bet that the best know they’re the best or near it.

     “But then again, maybe not (I don’t believe this, I just think that it’s arguably valid and perhaps worthy of testing/studying in an academic setting). Personally, the most interesting thing would be defining high-maintenance, since I’m not sure what that means. Vanity? Inability to empathize?
     Honey’s last blog.TGIF In Honey-Land My ComLuv Profile”

     This is how I think of “high-maintenance”: The “average” male expects to wine, dine and court a woman. If, however, a woman thinks dining at Nobu is no big deal, most guys would call her “high-maintenance”. Sure, most guys could save up and send a false signal that “he has it like that” but he’d likely bring up the money he spent on her if they had a fight. A guy who’s used to nice restaurants and an expensive lifestyle wouldn’t think to bring it up during a fight because, so what, he took her to dinner. High maintenance is relative to the resources (rank) of the male; false signals are the tell-tale sign of a low ranking male.

196. honey 196

     When I think high maintenance, I think of women who are emotionally clingy/needy. I’ve never heard anyone describe high maintenance in terms of the money a man spends on her.

197. Steven 197

     Honey @ 192

     “@ Steven 190 I’m suggesting that the metric for best is not measured in the way that you claim. My metric may be as flawed as yours, but it is certainly not more flawed.”

     Honey, saying things doesn’t make them so; for you, or for me. Saying your metric “is certainly not more flawed” is self-serving. Why is your metric “certainly not more flawed”? Who says? The metric I’m using is, as close as I can tell, the consensus truth. You may feel that a short pudgy girl more closes approximates your ideal of beauty and so that model of woman should be chosen as Ms. America. Consensus calls for a very different choice. We may not agree with who’s the most beautiful woman but there’s a group most informed people agree are candidates and the short pudgy ones simply aren’t.

     In the same way no matter how you feel about George Costanza, he’ll never be the physical ideal for most women. He just won’t. Most women want “tall dark and handsome”. People are hard wired for some things and those are, mostly, what every man wants in their woman and what ever woman wants in their man.

     The “best”, is simply the manifestation mainstream values. Woman want caring, easy going guys who are attractive and make tons of money; they have status. Men want beautiful healthy woman who can give them tons of sex and make them look good.

     “The fact that poverty exists is proof to me of two things: 1) that capitalism is morally bankrupt as a social system, and 2) that the planet does not have enough resources to support our current population.”

     First, capitalism is an economic system not a social system. The planet has more than enough resources to support our current and future population. But that’s not what this discussion is about.

     “That goes for the united states as well as elsewhere. IMO, adoption should be mandatory until every single human being on the entire planet has a middle-class standard of living (by U.S. standards).”

     Basically you’re animal husbandry.

     “Then we should be implementing some sort of population control to bring/keep the world population at a more sustainable level (we are at 6.7 billion at the moment and scientists estimate 2-3 billion is the sustainable level, so there is quite a big reduction that needs to happen before we start panicking that the human race will go extinct).”

     Wasn’t that kinda what the Nazis had in mind?

     “And, though it is obvious from my comments, I don’t think socialism is a bad thing and I think that eugenics, if practiced correctly, could be humankind’s salvation.
     Honey’s last blog.TGIF In Honey-Land My ComLuv Profile”

     The name of the economic system you’re advocating is communism and you’re talking about that being the moral high ground?

198. starthrower68 198

     Wow, something for everyone on this blog, from dating advice to the virtures of economic models. Evan, who knew?

199. Honey 199

     Yes
     .-= Honey’s last blog ….TGIF In Honey-Land =-.

200. Evan Marc Katz 200

     Not sure why some of the men on this blog have to be “right” in order to be content. Steven seems to have replaced Vino, who replaced Verbosity as the “if you disagree with me, you’re wrong and I will provide so much evidence why you’re wrong that you’ll want to gouge my eyes out” guy.

     Of course, I’M allowed to be this way – the irony doesn’t escape me.

201. sophie 201

     Brett 180: Re cohabitation before marriage and the likelihood of divorce: I have googled this very topic several times in the past and I don’t think its as clear cut as you make out. Yes, some studies have come to this conclusion but others have failed to find that this is the case at all.

202. mic 202

     Men generally go for the clearly more attractive woman and disregard whether or not she’s high-maintenance.

     Also, historically desirable men (good-looking, wealthy, social adept) haven’t particularly delayed marriage but rather married and then had affairs.

203. Kristyn 203

     I think its interesting that Steven’s metric of best is based on “the consensus truth”. I think everyone else posting on this board would agree (form a consensus) that the his “best get married young and stay married” just isn’t true.

204. Steven 204

     Kristyn @ 202

     “I think its interesting that Steven’s metric of best is based on the consensus truth. I think everyone else posting on this board would agree (form a consensus) that the his best get married young and stay married just isn’t true.”

     Kristyn, let’s think about that for a minute. If the people on this board (myself included) were the best, they’d have no need for the services Evan offers, now would they?

     Before entering into this discussion, I thought it was common knowledge that the best got married young and stayed married; I’m surprised to see people actually disputing it.

     So I’ll ask the group, without changing the premise that a certain group of men and women constitute the best mates available, what possible reason would that group have for delaying marriage?

     What I’ve seen in prior posts is people responding in support of their argument by, in effect, giving examples of people who clearly aren’t the best and say the statistics of this average group don’t support the best get married young and stay married.

205. Honey 205

     Steve, I don’t think you can be the “best mate” until you’re the best person you can possibly be – or at least be self-actualized enough to realize the things about yourself that you need to change and compromise in order to have a partner. I’ve never met a young adult (say, under 25) that possesses that quality.

     I think that “best” is a process of becoming, and not a label that can apply to a person categorically. So I would reject any definition of best that excluded people permanently. That is, every person should always be able to attain the label of “best.” Therefore, anything like race, age, sexual orientation, etc. that people either “are” or “aren’t” couldn’t possibly be included in the definition of best.
     .-= Honey’s last blog ….Hello 30! =-.

206. Ava 206

     Steven #204

     “If the people on this board (myself included) were the best, they’d have no need for the services Evan offers, now would they?”

     Speak for yourself, my friend.

     “Before entering into this discussion, I thought it was common knowledge that the best got married young and stayed married; I’m surprised to see people actually disputing it.”

     You are making a supposition that early marriage is the optimum state, and that if you are among the “best” that is what you aspire to. That may be YOUR view, but I seriously doubt that EVERYONE believes that. Talk about rigid thinking!

207. A-L 207

     Steven asked, “So I’ll ask the group, without changing the premise that a certain group of men and women constitute the best mates available, what possible reason would that group have for delaying marriage?”

     They want to see who else is out there (how do they know they’ve really found the best unless they know what else is out there?). They want a variety of sexual experiences. They want to know they can live alone if they have to, and be happy while doing it. They can devote themselves entirely to a cause (education, the environment, Peace Corps, whatever) and put 100% into it without feeling as though they’re neglecting their spouse. They want to have a time of freedom where they don’t need to worry about what someone thinks of their tidiness, or style, or the hours they keep, etc. There are a variety of reasons why the “best” people may not want to marry at a young age.

208. Steven 208

     Honey @ 205

     “Steve, I don’t think you can be the best mate until you’re the best person you can possibly be or at least be self-actualized enough to realize the things about yourself that you need to change and compromise in order to have a partner. I’ve never met a young adult (say, under 25) that possesses that quality.”

     OK, that’s your opinion and so very politically correct; everyone in the pool, no one excluded – we’re all the best in our own special way – pardon me while I puke;)

     “I think that best is a process of becoming, and not a label that can apply to a person categorically. So I would reject any definition of best that excluded people permanently. That is, every person should always be able to attain the label of best. Therefore, anything like race, age, sexual orientation, etc. that people either are or aren’t couldn’t possibly be included in the definition of best.
     Honey’s last blog.Hello 30! My ComLuv Profile”

     I get it, your point of view isn’t unique – it’s called communism; it includes taking healthy people’s rights and property through coercion or force and distributing it to those who don’t, won’t, or can’t compete.

     Thank you but that’s not the world I live in or would ever want to live in.

     It’s a good bet you don’t do anything that involves the free exchange of goods and services in the economy. My guess would be you either “work” in an educational institution or for a municipal or governmental agency – either way, it’s a good bet your employer gets their funding through the threat of force.

209. Honey 209

     I think there are plenty of folks who aren’t and never will put forward the effort required to be the “best,” so it’s not like the title is freely given to those who don’t deserve it (though I also feel like if your partner truly thinks you’re the best, then it doesn’t matter what external judgments are placed on you by others).

     I thought the idea that you could achieve happiness and success by working hard was the American Dream, not communism. I also didn’t know that my happiness precluded anyone else’s. Interesting.
     .-= Honey’s last blog ….Hello 30! =-.

210. Steven 210

     Ava @ 206

     Steven #204

     If the people on this board (myself included) were the best, they’d have no need for the services Evan offers, now would they?

     “Speak for yourself, my friend.”

     Presumably that makes you feel better because it doesn’t contribute much information which could be useful…

     I did speak for myself and I speak for all those who are on this site for help and not amusement or diversion.

     Before entering into this discussion, I thought it was common knowledge that the best got married young and stayed married; I’m surprised to see people actually disputing it.

     “You are making a supposition that early marriage is the optimum state, and that if you are among the best that is what you aspire to. That may be YOUR view, but I seriously doubt that EVERYONE believes that. Talk about rigid thinking!”

     Ava, it is not only my view, it is the view of many, many decision makers; the fact that everyone doesn’t believe it, is, irrelevant.

     Early marriage to the best mate is the killer app for someone who is realistic about competing for limited resources and passing on the best opportunities to their offspring. For those not interested in financial, social and professional accomplishment then the age of marriage, being married at all or being gay won’t make much difference.

211. Melanie 211

     Wow! All of this from my superficial question posed to Evan one day on whether or not I could get some action with a hot guy.

     LMAO

     (just tryin to lighten the mood around here

212. Steven 212

     A-L @ 207

     Steven asked, So I’ll ask the group, without changing the premise that a certain group of men and women constitute the best mates available, what possible reason would that group have for delaying marriage?

     “They want to see who else is out there (how do they know they’ve really found the best unless they know what else is out there?). They want a variety of sexual experiences. They want to know they can live alone if they have to, and be happy while doing it. They can devote themselves entirely to a cause (education, the environment, Peace Corps, whatever) and put 100% into it without feeling as though they’re neglecting their spouse. They want to have a time of freedom where they don’t need to worry about what someone thinks of their tidiness, or style, or the hours they keep, etc. There are a variety of reasons why the best people may not want to marry at a young age”

     A-L,

     I understand your point and it’s not without merit but at the end of the day, they’re taking themselves out of the dating/mating consideration pool and are statistical outliers.

     Beyond that, most people don’t consider those traits to be the best. The person you’ve described is immature and self-centered.

     The best people get married young and stay married. Maybe because they didn’t spend their time looking for the best mate or out their life searching but are spending their life trying to be the best mate they can to their life partner and the one who will be most important in building a happy, secure life.

     Just a thought…

213. Brett 213

     Honey@ 196 – Men mean money 95 times out of a hundred when they label a woman high maintenance. A woman that “likes” to be wined and dined at expensive places and one that “expects” it are two different things entirely. How much money the guy has is irrelevant, it’s all about her attitude and values.

     mic@ 203 – “Men generally go for the clearly more attractive woman and disregard whether or not she’s high maintenance”

     That’s only if the guy is desperate and can only get an attractive woman by buying her. An unattractive guy lacking social skills will spend a ton and put up with a lot to get a pretty woman to committ to him. An attractive guy with game? He doesn’t need to flaunt cash or put up with a high maintenance woman just because she’s pretty. He has options.

214. Jennifer 214

     Steven,
     Lots of people don’t agree with you. Clearly there is no consensus here (or dare I say in general) on this topic. Stating the same point over and over again is not going to convince people that you are correct. Why are you so hell bent on convincing everyone that doesn’t agree with you that they are wrong? It should be enough for you to believe what you are saying and be done with it.

215. Selena 215

     So Steven, when do people stop being “the best”?

     Robert and Anne marry at age 24 right after grad school graduation. By all external measures, and their own compatibility they are considered “the best” by their families, professors, peers, and themselves.

     At age 34, they realize they are no longer in love, and another 40 + years stretching out living essentially as brother and sister does not seem the best way to live out their lives. They divorce. So, by your definition they are no longer “the best” correct?

     Suppose they don’t divorce at 34. They stay together because that’s what the best people do. At 44 though, Robert has an affair with a collegue and Anne dallies with the pool boy whenever Robert is out of town. Are they still “the best”? Hey they did marry young. And they are STILL married.

     At age 54, Robert joins dating sites looking for women 20-30 years younger than himself. Anne primarily stays in their residences in Europe because older women are more appreciated there. They live separate lives, but figure why bother to divorce? That would be just an economic hassle they don’t need. So, they still fit your scenario of “the best”.

     At age 64 they decide to divorce amicably and without fanfare. Robert marries a 63 year old widow he has fallen in love with. Anne is partnered to a man 15 yrs. her junior who shares her passion for the Peace Corps. Everyone is happy. But are they still the best though? According to you, no because they didn’t *Stay* married. They were only “the best” for 40 years.

     Seems to me Steven, you would have to follow a couple from their 20′s till their deaths to ascertain whether or not they are “the best”. How long exactly do YOU plan to live? I bet you are a member of Imminst.org.

216. Steven 216

     Honey @ 209

     “I think there are plenty of folks who aren’t and never will put forward the effort required to be the best, so it’s not like the title is freely given to those who don’t deserve it (though I also feel like if your partner truly thinks you’re the best, then it doesn’t matter what external judgments are placed on you by others).”

     x2

     “I thought the idea that you could achieve happiness and success by working hard was the American Dream, not communism.”

     I don’t know who’s dream it is but I do know you’d have to be asleep to believe it. Happiness is a byproduct of so much more than hard work. In point of fact, the ability to work hard is at least to some extent dependent on the level of happiness one enjoys.

     “I also didn’t know that my happiness precluded anyone else’s. Interesting.
     Honey’s last blog.Hello 30! My ComLuv Profile”

     Honey @ 192
     “IMO, adoption should be mandatory until every single human being on the entire planet has a middle-class standard of living (by U.S. standards).

     Then we should be implementing some sort of population control”

     Your view of the world requires taking from people the most fundamental human right. And you didn’t know that would preclude other people’s happiness? Interesting.

217. Michael 217

     Jennifer,

     It is important to remember that having broken relationships can impair the ability of oxytocin to form lasting emotional bonds that are necessary for marriage.

218. Brett 218

     OK maybe the best don’t marry young, but many good ones do. I’ve found dating to be extremely hard in the 30′s so far and often wish I would of found a life partner when I was much younger. Of course if I finally find the one I’ll change my mind on that, but it’s not looking good at this point. I’ve noticed many women that are in their late twenties and up that are never married w/ no kids seem to have the waiting for the perfect man syndrome. It’s almost like they’re single for a reason.

219. Steven 219

     Selena @ 215

     “So Steven, when do people stop being the best?”

     The ones who last longest are the best.

     “Robert and Anne marry at age 24 right after grad school graduation. By all external measures, and their own compatibility they are considered the best by their families, professors, peers, and themselves.”

     Often we’re misled by appearances; there’s a lot of counterfeit out there.

     To love, honor, and respect, until death us do part is a lot to commit. It ain’t over ’til the fat lady sings so the true champions can’t be known in advance.

     “At age 34, they realize they are no longer in love, and another 40 + years stretching out living essentially as brother and sister does not seem the best way to live out their lives. They divorce. So, by your definition they are no longer the best correct?”

     Not correct…

     By my definition they never were the best, they may have had the appearance or potential of being the best but “Truth is what stands the test of experience” – Albert Einstein.

     Quiting rather than adapting when the going gets tough is weakness, not strength.

     “Suppose they don’t divorce at 34. They stay together because that’s what the best people do. At 44 though, Robert has an affair with a collegue and Anne dallies with the pool boy whenever Robert is out of town. Are they still the best? Hey they did marry young. And they are STILL married.”

     They never were the best. Yeah, they got married young and are still (sorta) married but that isn’t the test of being the best. It’s not a stretch to say the best people don’t conduct their marriages as a sham.

     “At age 54, Robert joins dating sites looking for women 20-30 years younger than himself. Anne primarily stays in their residences in Europe because older women are more appreciated there. They live separate lives, but figure why bother to divorce? That would be just an economic hassle they don’t need. So, they still fit your scenario of the best.”

     Selena, they never did fit my scenario of “the best”. Go back and read what I’ve been writing since my first post.

     What people seem to confuse the cause with the effect. Getting married young and staying in a sham marriage doesn’t in any way shape or form make someone the best. The best however, get married young and stay married in healthy, loving supportive relationships (not in sham marriages) because they realize it’s the best option for going though life.

     This doesn’t mean marriage is the best option for everyone but it is the best option for the best.

     “At age 64 they decide to divorce amicably and without fanfare. Robert marries a 63 year old widow he has fallen in love with. Anne is partnered to a man 15 yrs. her junior who shares her passion for the Peace Corps. Everyone is happy. But are they still the best though? According to you, no because they didn’t *Stay* married. They were only the best for 40 years.”

     Once again, no. They were never the best and that came out over, and over, and over throughout their lives.

     “Seems to me Steven, you would have to follow a couple from their 20′s till their deaths to ascertain whether or not they are the best. How long exactly do YOU plan to live? I bet you are a member of Imminst.org.”

     True. We can’t know the best in advance, only in retrospect.

     Why these things are offensive to the people on this board instead of immediately apparent seems odd.

220. mic 220

     The “attractive guy with game” who wants to settle down is almost an oxymoron. The gist of the statement is that a man who wants a committed relationship will choose the most physically attractive woman he can find, albeit she probably needs to possess the right background, some intelligence, a decent personality, etc. Only if she is obnoxiously “high-maintenance” is that likely to rule her out despite her beauty.

     It might very well be true that, in hindsight, maximum desirability of a man who was never highly desirable was in his youth. That also applies to women, possibly even more of them. If people’s mate value did not decline – mostly, if they did not age – there probably would be little rush to marry. By that reasoning, the percentage of irrational singles – “perfect man” syndrome and such – likely increases with age (to a point, at least) and the “best” (psychologically) become unavailable.

221. Brett 221

     Here’s another interesting take on the subject, If you’re not one of the best, and you didn’t marry young, doesn’t that mean you’re screwed? Since many of the best possibly do wait until later in life to marry, they are looking for others that are also the “best”. So if you’re not the “best” but didn’t marry young, aren’t you going to have to attempt to date people out of your league? I didn’t marry young and I don’t have any kids but most women probably wouldn’t consider me one of the “best” since I don’t have an above average amount of wealth.

222. Jennifer 222

     @Michael,
     I get what you are saying, but I’m not convinced that oxytocin plays as large or significant a role in that area as some people believe.
     I think people may sometimes have issues forming bonds in new relationships after having been hurt in previous ones, I just don’t believe those issues are oxytocin based or driven.

223. Honey 223

     Selena – Have you read “Happy Endings” by Margaret Atwood? It’s VERY similar to your response. Hilarious!

     a) I don’t think reproduction is a basic right,

     b) I never said that it would make me happy to institute such rules,

     c) I fail to see how raising the standard of living worldwide wouldn’t lead to significantly more happiness than exists now,

     d) It’s not like eugenics or population control are on the horizon anyway, so I also fail to see how my views are oppressing or limiting anyone’s happiness.
     .-= Honey’s last blog ….Hello 30! =-.

224. Evan Marc Katz 224

     Steven, the word “best” is not as empirical as you think it is. You are defining it as one thing; the rest of the community seems to disagree. So you think you’re being objective; everyone else things you’re being subjective. That’s where the friction lies. As it stands, there is no value in posting any more long answers to explain yourself – I’m not squelching your desire for free speech, nor am I saying you’re wrong – I’m just pretty sure you’ve gotten your point across by now. Thanks for your contributions.

225. mic 225

     One should keep in mind the probably widely held, grain-of-truth belief that particularly physically attractive women tend to be high-maintenance. Hence, that’s another reason for a man to not care much about a woman being somewhat difficult. Perhaps the interesting twist is that, once a man gets over much of the thrill of sex with a good-looking woman, he gets cold feet about marrying her due to her “high-maintenance” personality (which she might have partly disguised at the start). That could explain much of stereotypical marriage hesitance (often long-term cohabitation, not really “settling down”) on the part of desirable men. It’s not pure speculation. There is a sociological book – sorry, not recalling the name – that has plenty of unappetizing stories about men’s attitudes re relationship management and physical attractiveness.

226. Selena 226

     @Honey #222

     No Honey I haven’t read the novel. I suspect though Margaret Atwood, like many of us, has discovered life holds many unexpected twists and turns that could never have been antipated at age 24.

     Will put “Happy Endings” on my reading list – sure sounds like I would enjoy it.

227. Honey 227

     @ Selena -

     It’s actually a short story – here’s the link (it’s like a 5 min. read so good for a lunchbreak!)

     http://users.ipfw.edu/ruflethe/endings.htm
     .-= Honey’s last blog ….Hello 30! =-.

228. Steve 228

     @226

     Put Oryx and Crake on your list too. No happy endings, but an excellent piece of sci-fi

229. Honey 229

     @ Steve, #228 – thanks for the recommendation! It sounds not totally dissimilar to Marge Piercy’s He, She, and It or Walter Miller’s A Canticle for Leibowitz.

     I love me some dystopian fiction!
     .-= Honey’s last blog ….Hello 30! =-.

230. Steven 230

     mic @ 225

     You make some good points…

     I’m more concerned with the relationship trade a woman is offering me rather than her level of maintenance.

     Put another way, I want the best deal of the group of men she knows/dates; that’s how I measure my value to her because her level of maintenance is inversely proportional to my value to her.

231. A-L 231

     In #218 Brett wrote, I’ve noticed many women that are in their late twenties and up that are never married w/ no kids seem to have the waiting for the perfect man syndrome. It’s almost like they’re single for a reason.

     Maybe they were in school for a long time and didn’t have time to focus on a relationship. Maybe they didn’t want to be tied down in an LTR and never had a serious relationship. Maybe they were with a guy for 8 years thinking that it was going to turn into forever, but then they found out the guy would never be willing to commit. Or perhaps you are right and they are waiting for the perfect guy. But then again you’re in your 30s and never married. How do women known that you’re not suffering from the searching-for-the-perfect-woman syndrome? Perhaps they’re single for the same reason that you are.

     In #220 Brett wrote, If you’re not one of the best, and you didn’t marry young, doesn’t that mean you’re screwed? Since many of the best possibly do wait until later in life to marry, they are looking for others that are also the best. So if you’re not the best but didn’t marry young, aren’t you going to have to attempt to date people out of your league?

     This has nothing to do with age. Most people are maximizers and want to get the best they possibly can. By going out and dating they discover their dating value. If they can get dates/relationships with people who would rank an 8-10 on the dating scale, then that’s what they’re going to want to marry. But if the people one dates are in the 5-7 range, then that’s what one would typically expect to marry. But let me put in the HUGE caveat that these rankings are more in terms of how the outside world might view someone based on appearance, income, etc. The two people in the relationship, however, should view each other as being 10s (or at least 9s).

232. Michael 232

     Jennifer,

     Would not the ideal age for marriage be in the early twenties or even younger, as people in that age are more likely to not have a track record of broken relationships or many years alone that would generate cynicism and bitterness?

233. Jennifer 233

     @Michael #232- I don’t think so, no. I believe the benefit that is derived from living a little and learning about yourself so that you can choose a partner that is more suitable for you, both short and long term, far outweighs any damage a person may sustain from broken relationships.

     That long term piece is especially important and what trips up a lot of people who marry young; it’s difficult to choose a partner that will be appropriate for the type of life you want to live if you don’t even know what your own long-term goals are yet. Difficult to know what you like/dislike and need in a partner if you don’t know yet and/or have no point of comparison. How do you know you like scrambled eggs the best, and that you always will, if you’ve never even had them any other way? (So i’m kidding a bit with the eggs thing but you catch my drift).

     If you don’t agree with me I’m alright with that I’m not trying to change your mind, rather just answer your question.

234. Steven 234

     Michael @ 232

     “Jennifer,

     Would not the ideal age for marriage be in the early twenties or even younger, as people in that age are more likely to not have a track record of broken relationships or many years alone that would generate cynicism and bitterness?”

     Bingo!

     At a young age our whole life in ahead of us and the potential (or at least illusion) is there to make it what we want. Of coarse if what we want is a string of one nights stands, casual sex and failed relationships we can make that our life, and for many, there really isn’t any other option.

     It’s unrealistic to believe someone in their 30′s or 40′s who’s never been married, or was married and is divorced, will get married, stay married. But even if they beat the odds and stay married, I don’t see them reaching the level of relationship a couple who married young can.

     Within the realm of relationships, past history is THE BEST
     indication of future performance IMO.

235. Jennifer 235

     One more thing Michael,
     It’s been my experience that cynical, negative and bitter people are that way in general, including when it comes to relationships, but not necessarily as a result of having having ‘bad’ relationships.
     For example, the type of person that believes everyone is always lying and that the world is just a terrible hate-filled place will bring that same attitude to bear in their relationships and actively look for examples to support their world view. It is unlikely that a few bad dates or a difficult relatinoship created their cynicism- they had a tendency towards that all along, young or old.

236. Jennifer 236

     Couples who marry young(er) have a higher incidence of divorce. And that’s not my opinion, it just is.

237. Steven 237

     Jennifer @ 235

     “…It’s been my experience that cynical, negative and bitter people are that way in general, including when it comes to relationships, but not necessarily as a result of having having bad relationships.”

     x2

     “For example, the type of person that believes everyone is always lying and that the world is just a terrible hate-filled place will bring that same attitude to bear in their relationships and actively look for examples to support their world view. It is unlikely that a few bad dates or a difficult relationship created their cynicism- they had a tendency towards that all along, young or old.”

     Agreed, but people tend to age into depression. It’s rare (not unheard of) for young children to suffer from depression. It’s common in seniors.

     Not saying depression is the same as being negative and cynical only that when you’ve given everything you have, and it isn’t enough, it does kinda suck and it does kinda change your view of the world.

     I’ve read more than once that emotional trauma causes the heart tissue to scar; that can’t be good for someone.

     It’s not good to have too many lovers in one lifetime.

238. Honey 238

     @ Jennifer, #s 233 and 235 -

     I agree 100% with you on both of these things. I don’t think that my understanding of who I really was and what I needed/wanted out of life really firmed up until my late 20s.

     I’m sure my vision/understanding of myself will continue to evolve, but it changed so radically during my late teens and early twenties that there’s no way I could have picked someone who would match/complement my trajectory of personal growth.

     I don’t know if I’m a better person now, but I’m certainly happier, more emotionally resilient, and a far better partner now then I was then.
     .-= Honey’s last blog ….One Super Important Thing I Learned From Dating Three Chicks At Once =-.

239. Honey 239

     Happiness is a decison you make, not something you wait to happen to you.
     .-= Honey’s last blog ….One Super Important Thing I Learned From Dating Three Chicks At Once =-.

240. sophie 240

     I think it is inevitable that young people with little or no experience will make mistakes in their early relationships. Whether these mistakes happen in the context of marriage or not isn’t going to change anything. Sadly most people will have broken relationships in their lives.

     If anything I think that going through a divorce in your early adult life is going to be even more traumatic than going through a break up with someone you weren’t married to. Divorce is very expensive and the resulting battles over money/the division of marital assets and also the fact that aspects of your private life are likely to become known to lawyers/judges or even the general public in some countries makes a bad situation infnitely worse in my opinion.

241. Kristyn 241

     Steven said
     “when you’ve given everything you have, and it isn’t enough, it does kinda suck and it does kinda change your view of the world.”

     It does suck – I know from experience. It only can change my view of the world if I let it. I really dislike being around negative divorcees who constantly re-hash their spouses faults, their divorces, the “jerks” they’ve dated, etc. Even though I’m divorced, I don’t have that viewpoint and I choose to not participate. I think there are a lot, A LOT, of really good people in the world.

     “It’s unrealistic to believe someone in their 30′s or 40′s who’s never been married, or was married and is divorced, will get married, stay married. But even if they beat the odds and stay married, I don’t see them reaching the level of relationship a couple who married young can.”

     I believe that I will re-marry, and because of what I know from previous experince, not only will it be successful but that it will be a better – more complete – relationship than my 1st marriage. Call me what you will.

242. Steven 242

     #Kristyn @ 241

     “It does suck I know from experience. It only can change my view of the world if I let it. I really dislike being around negative divorcees who constantly re-hash their spouses faults, their divorces, the jerks they’ve dated, etc. Even though I’m divorced, I don’t have that viewpoint and I choose to not participate. I think there are a lot, A LOT, of really good people in the world.”

     There’s a lot of wonderful people in the world and this journey we call life is quite the experience.:)

     I believe that I will re-marry, and because of what I know from previous experince, not only will it be successful but that it will be a better more complete relationship than my 1st marriage. Call me what you will.”

     I’d call you optimistic and say you’re confusing the word “know”, with “believe”.

     I’d also respectfully say that no matter how much we believe we know the future, we don’t. Which isn’t to say we shouldn’t follow our heart, only to say we shouldn’t so much believe everything it tells us.

243. Honey 243

     Um, we don’t know the past or the present, either. Our perception of reality is always subjective.
     .-= Honey’s last blog ….One Super Important Thing I Learned From Dating Three Chicks At Once =-.

244. Brett 244

     Steven @237 – That’s called the broken heart syndrome, it’s a nickname of the real term for when your heart is weakened due to emotional stress.

245. Steven 245

     Honey # 243

     “Um, we don’t know the past or the present, either. Our perception of reality is always subjective.”

     True, but the take away is as we flood emotionally, our perception drifts from the consensus to the absurd. That does not bode well for decisions making.

246. Jenny 246

     My parents were married young about 30 years ago and still very much loving each other. Since like-minded people talk to each other, we know many loving families who stayed together and weathering through many storms for years. To me, marriage is not an ending, it is merely a beginning of a life-long committment. Obviously people today value committment a lot less, the emphasis is too much on “where is MY life stand?” “where does he/she fit in MY life?” “what do I want out of her/him?”. While being one’s own mind is very important in any relationship, this self-centered perspective gives no room for a real, genuine relationship.

     Of course, there are plenty of women out there who are less emotional and committal than their men. I highly doubt those women are “inexperienced” with men. Oftentimes I ask myself this question, “do I really want to be less emotional than my man?” Because every time I give my heart away and he walks, I become less emotional than where I used to be. I know in time if I have enough men walking out on me, I will be just that emotionless woman.

     Since I am in my 20s and still single, my desire is probably a lot higher than a “normal” woman. Evan talked about It’s different when you’re intoxicated by the presence of a man, when you crave his touch and his attention, when you’re under the influence of oxytocin, which chemically bonds you to a man after intercourse. if any woman on this forum claim that there isn’t such a thing – I have been there, and I know how powerful it can be. Even though I too have a high sexual desire, I don’t throw myself out there and hurt myself countlessly. I want to keep what’s in me the feeling of emotion, that touch. if “the one” doesn’t show up, at least I got myself.

247. Kristyn 247

     Steven and Honey
     Your right – know is the wrong word – believe is much better. I do know that no matter what happens in my future – I’ll be ok.

248. girl-with-glasses 248

     I found the comment that the best tend to marry young and stay married unexpected and refreshing. That’s actually an accepted wisdom in some circles? Of course people who marry young fall the gamut from trivial / irresponsible to the best, just as representational of the general population as anything else, but I would agree enough to say that *some* of the best people I know married young.
     Along the line of what ‘best’ implies, there’s some sort of book called Advice to a Young Scientist , or a young mathematician, by some proven smart old guy/ guru-type, that advices young men that if they are serious about their science, to get married, presumably so that their emotional needs are taken care of, not distracted by trivial acts of chasing skirts, so they can devote their minds and energies to their higher calling. Something along those lines, very old fashioned, but presumably that works.

     So to me, best could imply serious minded and mature individuals. Alot of people on the board, seem torn between either an overly idealistic romantic or an idealized sexualized relationship, or some other variant of the-grass-is-greener syndrome. I’m not exempting myself. But there’s a lot to be said for getting down to the serious business of doing one’s work in the world, as well as raising and maintaining a family as early as possible so as not to waste one’s most energetic years, rather than search for some vague adventure in relationship to members of the opposite sex. Don’t people ever look at themselves and think that all this emotional turmoil and expectations seem silly and childish?

249. Ava 249

     I get it now; the “best” people never make mistakes (at least not when it comes to relationships).

250. "T" 250

     I’m not one to judge anybody on sexual escapades, however I can tell you from working for years in a government agency where all kinds of diseased and normal looking people come in with HEP C thru Z..herpes, MERSA and all other manner of contagious diseases…without discernment (or a background check on medical history) the decision to have sex or EVEN KISS someone goes much deeper than what someone will think of me the next morning. These days it very well could come down to making a decision on whether you want to live the rest of your life healthy or die with something you can’t get rid of! Um..that’s my two cent..LOL

251. Steven 251

     “T” @ 250
     Oh stop, “T”.
     At the end of the day, we die. WE DIE. In the brief pause we call life, we have the chance to love. By way of example, a woman I very much love contacted me and said she didn’t have groceries for the kids. She also said the guy she has been dating fucked her last night. Hmm, how charming. He gets to fuck, and I’m asked to pay the groceries… well at least I stopped paying the rent, the car note, AND the groceries… So, the question is, if you have grocery money, and a girl (you love) needs grocery money, do you provide support? OR, do you say, NFW, I’m not being used…
     Comments welcome.
     Seems to me, love suffers long, or, it ain’t really love…

252. Brett 252

     Steven that’s mostly a typical situation where the woman spreads her legs for the bad boys but wants the nice guys to support her and give her the emotional support she needs.

     In that situation – you let her drown, and laugh.

253. Jennifer 253

     Hmm, diseases. There is a vaccination for Hep C, herpes amounts to little more than a skin rash but I’ll give you MRSA; that’s pretty serious.
     While no one wants a disease, even one that’s curable, no one wants to live life in a bubble either. You can get crabs or bedbugs from sleeping in a hotel room- does that mean you won’t travel? The most you can do is try to choose wisely and hope for the best. Or choose to bow out of a lot of life’s pleasures. But living in constant fear and worry does no one any good. Not saying you do that ‘T’, but just throwing it out there.

254. Steven 254

     Brett @ 252
     Actually Brett, he’s a good guy, just struggling in this economy like many.
     Because a woman doesn’t give it up to you doesn’t always mean she likes losers. Sometimes, ppl are in different places in their lives or don’t see a future together.

255. Christa 255

     WOW…. this is my first visit to this site and I am absolutely blown away. I truly believe that portions of this article which I read are going to be life changing for me (in particular….. Sophie and whoever sent the “just fucking fuck me now” article. I have been struggling with what I want in a relationship (after ending a 23 year marriage). I still have the “good girls don’t” mentality in my brain… but my 44 year old body is screaming….. good girls DO!!!!!! and should!!!!!! Thank you everyone for your input.

256. Dashing 256

     Sex is rarely meaningless. If it’s bad you immediately wish you had not done it. If it’s great you will keep coming back.
     Ironically the real problem happens when the sex is great with someone you know would never make a good mate or spouse. Time has a way of flying by and before you know it you are in a relationship with someone that should have been a one night stand or booty call at best! It’s such a waste of your time trying to turn water into wine. Secondly if you eventually meet someone special but he is not at same skill level of your “bad boy” lover you will run the risk of messing things up by cheating on the “great guy” for a few minutes of pleasure when you would have been better off showing the guy what you like done or how you like it done. A good man in love will do anything to please his woman!

257. hamsterdance 257

     Oddly enough, that’s exactly what I’ve been doing. I’ve had a friend with benefits for the last few months and have been dating other guys all along. I wouldn’t say it’s meaningless, as we’ve become very close friends, but I have no desire for him to be my boyfriend. The friendship is primary, the sex is secondary. Half the time we hang out now we don’t even have sex.
     I’ve been dating another guy for about 6 weeks and I really like him. We’re taking it slow and are not exclusive yet. Once I feel pretty confident that he’s wanting something serious I’ll have no problems ending the “benefits” with my fwb. We’ve slowed down to having sex once or twice a month anyway, so I don’t think it’s going to be too hard of a transition. What’s even stranger is the guy I have been dating knows about him. He hasn’t asked if we’re still having sex, but he knows we’re still good friends.

258. Steven 258

     hamsterdance @ 257, what’s odd?
     
     Most guys want a girl like you on the side, but most guys don’t want a girl like you front and center…
     It doesn’t sound like the people you know are surprised and, according to you, the new guy isn’t surprised; sounds like he views you as an easy fuck like your “fwb.”
     Some people here may think it harsh to call you an “easy fuck” but others will simply view it as descriptive.
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     

259. Brett 259

     hamsterdance no offense but in a way you’re screwing over the guy you’re actually dating. So you put out to a guy on the side you have no intentions of dating but make the guy you “are” dating wait. I’m sorry that just makes no sense to me…if I was the guy you were actually dating, I’d be pretty ticked off in a way. Especially if I was the one taking you out and spending money on you while the FWB reaps all the rewards. Not that sex is everything, but it would be the principal of the matter. So what do you do? Go to a dinner and a movie with your date let him drop off you off then you go call your FWB? That’s just sleazy lol. This is a perfect example of why I have a problem with FWB situations and casual sex in general. So yeah it’s probably better he doesn’t ask about the situation. Merry Xmas btw to all, it’s been a while since someone posted on this article. :p.

260. hamsterdance 260

     Brett- I’m having sex with both of them. Yes, protected and I do get tested regularly anyway. The new guy has had FWB before too, as well as typical relationships. He’s not judgmental or hypocritical about it. He is well aware that we’re not exclusive, and until he tells me he wants to be that is how it is.
     Steven- What you see as an “easy fuck” others see as a woman who simply enjoys sex and doesn’t attach more importance to it than it really has. I guarantee you that both my fwb and the guy I am dating do not see me as simply an easy fuck. Believe it or not there are many guys out there who aren’t hypocrites.

261. hamsterdance 261

     Just to be clear, I’ve had sex with fwb exactly twice since I started seeing the new guy 6 weeks ago, though we have hung out numerous times. The new guy and I have talked a little about being exclusive but I just want to be sure the relationship has potential before I go there. It’s something I plan to bring up in the near future, if he doesn’t do it first.
     It’s very normal among the people I know to date more than one person at a time, and naturally sometimes sex is going to overlap. The only difference for me is I have no romantic intentions with one of them. During the time we have been having sex I have only dated one guy at a time, and didn’t have sex with any of them until now.

262. Steven 262

     hamsterdance @260
     
     “Steven- What you see as an easy fuck others see as a woman who simply enjoys sex and doesn’t attach more importance to it than it really has.”
     True, they’re known as male sluts; the playmates of easy fucks.
     “I guarantee you that both my fwb and the guy I am dating do not see me as simply an easy fuck.”
     And your “guarantee” is worth exactly, what?
     “Believe it or not there are many guys out there who aren’t hypocrites.”
     True, but your activities restrict you the cohort group of guys who are male sluts. The majority of guys who aren’t male sluts don’t get involved females who are sluts – for obvious reasons.
     I’m using the term “male sluts” as a descriptive term in the same way I used “easy fuck.” Although the negative connotations can’t be avoided, it is entirely up to the individuals involved to avoid the stigma by avoiding the behavior. A person’s desire for both sides of the street doesn’t mean they get it.

     Male and female promiscuity is treated differently, that’s reality.

263. hamsterdance 263

     Steven I don’t need to convince you of anything. I’m secure in my relationships, thanks.
     But just to humor you, I’ve been with guys who didn’t respect me and just saw me as a piece of ass. These two don’t even come close. The guy I am dating has told me (and demonstrated with his actions) that I am his first priority besides work. He knows and cares about the things that are important to me, and he loves that we share many of the same interests. He says he thinks about me all the time.
     As for FWB, he’s told me that even if we weren’t having sex he’d still want to be friends with me. He said I’m different from other women, and he feels that I understand him. Like I already said, most of the time we hang out we don’t have sex at all. I think more than anything he wants someone who cares about him, and I do.
     I have zero interest in dating a guy who would judge me negatively for having an active sex life. I’m limitng myself on purpose. Just like I limit myself to men who are non-religious and pro-choice. I don’t care if my pool is smaller because I’m looking for the RIGHT guy, not a broader selection to pick from. I actually LIKE what you call male sluts. They don’t attach morality to sexual activity, and they are often very experienced and know what they’re doing. As long as he’s monogamous once in a serious relationship (as I am) that’s exactly the kind of guy I want. I’ve gone out with guys who were more puritanical, and we didn’t even click as far as personality goes.
     I respect your opinion, kind of, but I just don’t share your moral compass.

264. Steven 264

     hamsterdance @263

     “I’ve been with guys who didn’t respect me and just saw me as a piece of ass…”
     “I actually LIKE what you call male sluts”
     “As long as he’s monogamous once in a serious relationship (as I am)”
     You’re a nut!
     

265. hamsterdance 265

     Why? Because I live by a different moral code than you and it works fine for me? Yeeeeeah.

266. Steven 266

     hamsterdance @ 265
     “Why? Because I live by a different moral code than you and it works fine for me? Yeeeeeah.”
     Because you have a different moral code than the rest of the world.

267. Honey 267

     That’s demonstrably false, Steven, because she’s had no problems in the past or present finding people who accept her and live by a similar code.

268. Steven 268

     Honey @267

     Because something may be “demonstrably false” in an absolute sense does not mean it isn’t a consensus truth.
     Beyond that, the same could be said for prostitutes and crack heads – that they have no problems in the past or present finding people who accept them and live by a similar code.
     Most people think prostitutes, sluts, and crack heads are nuts.

269. Brett 269

     hamsterdance if the FWB is such a great guy..why didn’t you just have a normal relationship with him and not start banging some other guy at the same time? Because he never brought it up? Women with no moral code and a casual view of sex such as yourself always seem confused for some reason and truly scare me. Not to pick on you but I’m guessing you were raised by a single mother.

270. sayanta 270

     Brett and Steve-

     If hamsterdance wants to bed every single male in the Western hemisphere, what’s it to you guys? my guess is if hamsterdance were male, not one poster would have commented.

271. Honey 271

     I don’t think she’s in the majority by any means, but I think at least 25% of the population lives by a similar code, and I also don’t see how it’s a moral issue. If she’s keeping safe in a physical sense, why should anyone else care?

272. Steven 272

     sayanta @270 / Honey @ 271
     Sayanta, I’ve already referred to the males hamsterdance is fucking as males sluts so that, for the record, is how I feel about them.

     What it is to me, is pollution and pollution effects everyone. Hamsterdance accepts her behavior so she teaches her behavior to people who pick up her traits and, not knowing any better, treat it as acceptable which it is not.

273. Honey 273

     I guess the problem is that you haven’t given a single objective, logical reason why it is unacceptable in any sort of moral or physical sense. She’s not changing the world, she’s just living in it the way it has been for some decades now, at least. You’re trying to force a worldview on people, which is an oppressive and bullying way to treat people on the one hand, and totally useless and futile on the other, since you haven’t offered any actual reasons that would convince anyone. Why would you go out of your way to find perfectly happy people and try to make them unhappy? I had many, many partners after years of casual sex, I never caught anything icky, and when I met the right person,and it was easy for me to be devoted and monogamous as it is for anyone else. Those who say that lifestyle damages your ability to be in a LTR are just deluding themselves.

274. sayanta 274

     on the other hand- women who DON’t feel comfortable with lots of sexual activity get written off as ‘prudes’- it’s kind of a damned if you do, damned if you don’t situation.

275. sophie 275

     Brett@269: “Women with no moral code and a casual view of sex such as yourself always seem confused for some reason and truly scare me. Not to pick on you but I’m guessing you were raised by a single mother.”

     Brett-Can you explain why Hamsterdance seems confused to you?In my opinion, she really doesn’t seem confused at all, in fact, she says herself that she is very secure in her relationships. I would therefore suggest that maybe this confusion exists only in your own head or that you are projecting confusion onto her because you think that this is what someone in her situation SHOULD feel? It upsets you that someone who doesn’t share your own views on morality is leading a happy and fulfilling life with people who appreciate and respect her, having made choices that you do not deem to be acceptable for an as yet unarticulated reason?
     You also seem to think that she should have been raised by a single mother in order to have formed the attitudes and views she has, another rather bizarre comment I have to say. While I have no idea what hamsterdance’s family background is, I really can’t see anything in what she has written to make anyone think they have anywhere near enough information to start making assumptions about her background or upbringing.
     Do you think that your judgement of the issues might have become slightly clouded by your tendency to draw conclusions that aren’t really based on any sort of fact?

276. Steven 276

     Honey @ 273
     “I guess the problem is that you haven’t given a single objective, logical reason why it is unacceptable in any sort of moral or physical sense.”
     And therein lies the difference between the way we think. While you ask why it is ‘unacceptable” I ask why it is acceptable; thinking that makes you a liberal and me a conservative on this topic.
     “She’s not changing the world, she’s just living in it the way it has been for some decades now, at least.”
     She’s changing the world, we all do. For better or for worse, we all, in our small way, change the world.
     “You’re trying to force a worldview on people, which is an oppressive and bullying way to treat people…”
     Not trying to force a world view as much as standing for a world view which aligns with my beliefs and values.
     “… and totally useless and futile on the other, since you haven’t offered any actual reasons that would convince anyone. ”
     Beliefs are decisions, not arguments. Depending on the importance we put on our values we come down on one side of the belief or the other.
     “Why would you go out of your way to find perfectly happy people and try to make them unhappy?”
     You don’t seem concerned with my happiness so I might make the same argument that you’re being “oppressive and bullying” but I accept your beliefs as something to which you have a right, which is more than you would allow me.
     “I had many, many partners after years of casual sex, I never caught anything icky, and when I met the right person,and it was easy for me to be devoted and monogamous as it is for anyone else.”
     So for years you were a slut and now you’re telling me you’ve changed, and it’s no more difficult for you to be a way you’ve never been than it is for people who’ve been that way their whole life; hmmm.
     “Those who say that lifestyle damages your ability to be in a LTR are just deluding themselves.”
     Honey, for someone who’s complaining about a lack of “objective, logical reason” in my post, the lack of “objective, logical reason” in your yours is comical…

277. Honey 277

     I disagree with all your points but concede to the futility of the discussion.

278. The Sarge 278

     This is just horrible. This woman is being judged for her sexual activity in ways that a man NEVER is. You men are such vile hypocrites, it is unbelievable. What I find most fascinating is that hamsterdance is going along, living her life, not hurting anyone, and yet the men on here degrade her by calling her a nut, saying she scares them, etc. We are all imperfect in many ways, as long as she isn’t molesting children, robbing old ladies, or murdering innocents, why do you even care about what she does? Your views of people and the world are narrow, I pity you that you feel the need to judge others so harshly.

     And the lame comment “raised by a single mother” is just incredible. Since she and I both think similarly, I guess you could ask if I were raised by a single mother, the answer to which, is no. I was lucky enough to be raised by a single man, one who attended a prestigious university and had a long, brilliant career in engineering. I am glad I was raised by a man, because my father was honest and caring enough to let me know how men really are, and these comments just proved him right.

279. Christina 279

     As Evan said we have to have control on oxytocin and woman dont have any problem of having casual relationship and simultaneously looking for longtime relationship. Everyone want to have great sex life and that is not a bad thing..

280. Jack @ I Love Your Accent 280

     I do think you can have multiple sex partners while looking for a long-term relationship but by no means would I consider it to be “meaningless”.
     As with most things – you learn from your experiences. Those sexual encounters should help guide you to the long-term relationship you seek as long as you have a good head on your shoulders.

281. starthrower68 281

     It depends on how well one can compartmentalize.   I’m sure many have the ability have casual sex and keep a good head on their shoulders.   I don’t see it as being worth the risk, however.

282. BeenthereDonethat 282

     Not me!  I know I’m one of those people who isn’t good at casual sex.   I wait for an exclusive relationship.  I know there is still a good chance of getting my heart broken but I feel I have less likelihood of that happening than if I’m having casual sex with a guy.  Sex is never casual for me.

283. Jane 283

     I am dating a guy who is in love with me and is great “husband” material: kind, generous, tall, financially stable, etc… I sounds so good on paper. I’m in my 30′s and as you know EMK, i really should be trying to give that “good guy” a chance.  here’s the problem: I was hoping that “oxytocin” will help me bond to this guy. Well, 6 months of regular sex later and, though I do feel closer to him, I don’t feel that there has been any chemically induced bonding.  I’ve had one night stands with hot men that have induced stronger chemical feelings.
     So no, sex doesn’t automatically bond you to the guy

284. Evan Marc Katz 284

     No, Jane, it doesn’t “automatically” bond you for life like putting on handcuffs. Oxytocin exists in your system for a few weeks after intercourse. However, I predict that if you dump this guy in favor of a man whom you feel more chemically bonded to, the story will not necessarily have a happy ending. Good luck whatever you do.

285. Cat 285

     I’ll take him off your hands, Jane! I think you have Sleepless in Seattle syndrome: something more magical than a nice guy with asthma must be out there… She dumps her awesome fiancé for “what if” with a guy she hears on the radio (and then stalks) but has never met or been on a date with… Can you tell I don’t like the message of that movie?

     I wonder if you’d stayed with the hot one-night stands for six months if you’d still feel there was such a big attraction? However, I don’t mean to minimize that you’re obviously trying hard to make it work with someone you think would make a great husband but who, perhaps, doesn’t curl your toes every time he walks by…

286. www.notcomplicated.wordpress.com 286

     In the past I’ve tried to have sex “like a man” and time and time again I developed feelings for these guys.  It’s so much easier said than done to have no strings attached sex.  If you like someone enough to get intimate…chances are you have feelings for them.  Get yourself some toys!

287. passerby 287

     @ sophie #27:
     Maybe it’s because you can’t bond anymore, darling.

288. passerby 288

     @ Jane #285:
     Perhaps it’s the dopamine, darling.

289. J.A. 289

     I know this is kind of an old thread but I’ve been reading the posts and it’s all very interesting.  I have an opinion and a couple of questions-  If someone, whether it’s a man or a woman, wants to go out and sleep with anybody and everybody, it doesn’t make them a bad person.  I won’t judge a girl if she’s had a few one night stands or if we sleep together early on. 

     My questions are this:  Is this world we call Earth just one big swinger party where everyone is getting some and I wasn’t invited to the party?  Maybe I need to get out more?  You girls have to admit that it’s MUCH easier for you to go out and get laid than it is for most guys. 

     My other question is what would you posters on here consider slutty?  Is there nothing at all that’s slutty?  Would being paid for sex, for example, be considered slutty?  I’d think so.  If I found out that a girl has had video or pictures taken of her while having random sex with a random guy (or two) I would consider that very slutty.  Would that make her a bad person?  No.  Slutty?  Kinda. 

290. Karl R 290

     J.A. asked: (#289)
     “Is this world we call Earth just one big swinger party where everyone is getting some and I wasn’t invited to the party?”
     
     No.

     J.A. asked: (#289)
     “Maybe I need to get out more?”
     
     Probably. The primary action you’re likely to get at home alone is autoerotica.

     J.A. asked: (#289)
     “what would you posters on here consider slutty?”
     
     At this point in my life, I geneally apply the term “slut” to men, not women. While I never defined it, I’ve applied it to men who act like a large number of partners is a badge of honor (i.e. Gene Simmons and Warren Beatty).

     J.A. asked: (#289)
     “Would being paid for sex, for example, be considered slutty?”
     
     No. That’s prostitution, regardless of whether a man or woman is receiving the payment.

     J.A. said: (#289)
     “If I found out that a girl has had video or pictures taken of her while having random sex with a random guy (or two) I would consider that very slutty.”
     
     What if the pictures/video were taken without her knowledge or permission? Cameras have gotten very easy to hide.

     What about the man taking the pictures or video? Do you think he’s more or less slutty than the woman for doing so?

     Furthemore, why are you worried about what makes a woman slutty? Are you jealous of men like Gene Simmons and Warren Beatty who can have sex with thousands of women? If so, that means that you would be just as slutty as them except you lack the opportunity. At that point, why bother labeling women?

291. Helen 291

     Karl R 290, once again, you’re spot on. Thank you for speaking out against the horrid double standards that concern gender and “sluttiness.”

292. Denise 292

     J.A., thanks for your education on how men view having sex with women, ‘if we sleep together early on’.  Not sure if this will help, but many woman agonize over the subject on when to sleep with a man.  Mostly because they have had experiences where they slept with a man, and then he disappeared.  They are convinced that they had sex too soon or they didn’t have sex soon enough. 

     What they are missing is it’s not about when the sex happened, it’s how authentic they are and what kind of feminine energy they are providing to the man that make the man want to have more of her. 

     OR, they are not looking objectively at the man and his actions or believing what what he says, they just think it’s the sex that will make him stay.

     I am NOT saying a mature man of good character doesn’t want more than just to have sex, but sometimes, that is all they want given who the woman is, where they are in life, etc.

     Women just need to comes to terms with this and do what is good for them, what feels comfortable for them as opposed to doing it for the man and some potential relationshiop.  You as a man can help her with that by not having sex with her if she’s not someone you want to be in a relationship with (if that’s what she wants) or recognizing she is probably struggling with this concept.

     And, more importantly, realize that women develop strong feelings with the men we are having sex on a regular basis.  It’s biological, and there’s nothing we can do about it other than be careful and aware of the sexual situations we’re entering.  This is much different than how a man is affected by sex.  This concept is just as important as understanding that men are primarily and biologically driven to have sex, it’s something they can’t change or eliminate–is just is. 

293. J.A. 293

     All good points, Karl.  I guess I am a little jealous.  At least I admit it!  I honestly don’t believe in the double standards though.  However, any possibe future wife of mine I would prefer that she have a decent amount of sexual experience, but still be a classy, dignified, self-respecting woman who would be a good example to any children (specifically daughters) we might have.  I think that is reasonable.  Would you agree?

294. Karl R 294

     J.A. said: (#293)
     “I honestly don’t believe in the double standards though.  However, any possibe future wife of mine I would prefer that she have a decent amount of sexual experience, but still be a classy, dignified, self-respecting woman who would be a good example to any children (specifically daughters) we might have.”
     
     Let me make certain I understand you correctly. You don’t believe in the double standards. That implies that you are a classy, dignified, self-respecting man with a decent amount of sexual experience. And you would like your daughters to grow up to be classy, dignified, self-respecting women with a decent amount of sexual experience.

     Provided that your expectations for your future wife and daughters are the same as your expectations for yourself, I find them completely reasonable.

     I also find it completely reasonable if you hold yourself to a higher standard than you hold others.

     J.A. said: (#293)
     “I guess I am a little jealous.”
     
     Jealous of whom? Women? Why? Because they find it easier to have random sex?

     There’s a tradeoff.

     I’ve never been in a situation where I thought being alone with a strange woman jeopardized my safety. If I decided that I didn’t like the situation, I could always leave, and she wouldn’t be able to stop me.

     Women often have to decide whether they’re willing to be alone with a strange man who is significantly bigger and stronger than them. It’s sufficiently safe most of the time. But they never know when they’re about to encounter that exception.

     And that reality tends to dampen one’s enthusiasm for getting into compromising situations.

295. Katarina Phang 295

     Steven #276
     Not trying to force a world view as much as standing for a world view which aligns with my beliefs and values.
     Then stick with women of your own values, while we women who enjoy occasional casual sex and find nothing wrong in it we celebrate and embrace our goddess sexuality stick with the “male sluts” variety that we love.
      
     I am secure in my skin as a very sexual woman and I love that fact (and the men I date love it too).
      
     I will never date a man like you, so move on and live on….  The men who love and accept me don’t share your values, so don’t speak for the rest of the male population (or even the world).  We attract what we radiate.

296. J.A. 296

     Honestly, and this might sound weird, but I thought about it and maybe I’m being a hypocrite.  I’m a very sexual person but I don’t quite have enough ‘game’ to bed lots of women.  I am fairly attractive and I have a good personality but perhaps I’m not ‘alpha’ enough like guys are who get lots of sex from different women.  I probably watch too much porn but whenever I see a guy giving it to a girl (or two) really good I get a little envious like how did he get so lucky?  And a lot of these people that I see on there are ‘real’ people or ‘amateurs,’ not pros.  I want to be that guy who satisfies 2 girls at once or who a girl considers someone she can have a good fwb relationship with or a good one night stand.  Maybe right now I’m not ready to be monogomous, who knows?  It’s frustrating because an average looking girl can go out and get laid every night if she wanted, but even a guy who’s better than average wouldn’t have nearly that same success.  Again, I hope this makes sense and is not offensive to anyone.

297. Helen 297

     J.A. 296, it’s not rocket science. Read the last 3 paragraphs of Karl R’s #294. That is the reality of the situation for women.

     Now, if you’re still going to go and feel “jealous” about that, and find it frustrating, then that’s a rather smallminded attitude.

298. Karl R 298

     J.A., I get the impression that you’re fairly young (maybe 20s) and have very little perspective outside your own experience.
     
     J.A. said: (#296)
     “It’s frustrating because an average looking girl can go out and get laid every night if she wanted, but even a guy who’s better than average wouldn’t have nearly that same success.”
     
     For an average looking young woman, that’s true. However, she can’t be too picky about her partners’ looks or ages, or she won’t be having sex as often.

     If you were willing to have sex with any woman, regardless of her age or appearance, you’d be getting a lot more sex than you are right now. Does that sound appealing enough for you to go out and try it? It’s not appealing to me.

     But it is true that women in their 20s have more oppotunities for sex than men in their 20s. Men are at their sexual peak in their early 20s, and their sex drive declines from there. Women have much lower sex drive in their 20s. Their sex drive increases into their 40s. Most men in their 20s would like to have sex every day. Most women in their 20s don’t. Since the young women want sex less often then the men, they have an easier time having sex any time they want it.

     I’m 40. I don’t want to have sex every day. Several times per week is plenty. My girlfriend is older than me. When she was my age, she wanted sex a few times per day. At my age, that sounds exhausting. For some of that time she had a younger boyfriend who could keep up with her. The rest of the time, she satisfied herself. Most men and women our age are not inclined to go hook up with a stranger for sex. The hook-up scene is made up of young horny guys and young women with lower sex drives. The older women with higher sex drives aren’t part of that scene.

     That’s why it appears that women can have sex whenever they want. There’s an imbalance of supply & demand in the segment of society you socialize in.

     J.A. said: (#296)
     “I probably watch too much porn but whenever I see a guy giving it to a girl (or two) really good I get a little envious like how did he get so lucky?  And a lot of these people that I see on there are ‘real’ people or ‘amateurs,’ not pros.”
     
     You think amateur porn in some way resembles reality? Do you have any idea how naive that sounds?

     I have a friend who has done porn three times (1 amateur production, 2 professional productsions).

     “Lucky” has nothing to do with it. Even in the amateur porn, the men and women are paid. The pay is close to $1,000 for an afternoon’s worth of work at the amateur level, closer to $1,500 at the professional level. A lot of the women are students, so that’s a lot of money for very little work. And if they’re paid to do a scene where it’s scripted for two women and one man, that’s the scene they do.

     My friend is a “real” person with a regular job as a computer programmer. Even in his first video (an amateur production where he had zero video experience) he was acting. When he had difficulty getting an erection, they gave him something that he described as “viagra on steroids.” When that was insufficient, they injected something else directly into his penis. One erection courtesy of chemistry. And that’s how “real” an “amateur” production is.

     J.A. said: (#296)
     “I want to be that guy who satisfies 2 girls at once”
     
     I suspect I have more sexual experience than you. Despite this, it takes all of my attention to do a good job satisfying one woman. If I tried to divide my attention between two women, I’d end up doing a half-assed job twice. That’s not going to satisfy a real woman (unless she’s been paid $1,000 to “act” satisfied).

     And in porn they do things which look exciting, not necessarily things that feel good.

     J.A. said: (#296)
     “Maybe right now I’m not ready to be monogomous, who knows?”
     
     I get a lot more sex in a monogamous relationship than I do in a non-monogamous ones. I also get better sex. I just get it with one woman.

     But you’re not ready to be monogamous. You’re still trying to figure out what you want. You want lots of sex with lots of women, but you also want to be a father … and few things reduce your opportunities for sex as much as parenting does.

     You’re young. Figure out what you want. Then pursue it.

299. J.A. 299

     Karl, you’re close… I’m 31.  I like what you said about sex being better in serious ‘monogamous’ relationships.  That has been so true for me.  If someone asked me whether I wanted sex with 1,000 different hot women for each of the next 1,000 days or just one woman who is a great girlfriend to me I would choose the latter in a heartbeat.  Plus, I wouldn’t judge her if she’s had a few one night stands in the past and a few FWBs.  Now if she had multiple one night stands each week before me, then I might think twice lol! It’s all about moderation.  Like drinking for example… drinking and getting drunk once in a while is cool because that’s what I do and that’s the standards that I have for people.  Someone who drinks all the time and gets drunk consistently on the other hand isn’t someone I’d want to date.  Doesn’t mean they’re a bad person or that they wouldn’t be undesirable to other people, but I wouldn’t fit well with that lifestyle.  People are allowed to have standards whether they are right/reasonable/fair, or not.  It seemed like people were jumping all over people who disagreed with them in this thread.  Then again, that’s most threads lol!

300. Denise 300

     J.A. #299

     I think you’re simply sexually frustrated, frustrated with women, frustrated with dating.  I’ve felt that way as a woman (well, not sexually frustrated in the same way since I’m a woman!) and believe the vast majority of men (and women) have felt exactly as you. 

     What I would suggest is focusing on what you can control vs. focusing on women what is wrong with women and how they have it better.  Do you want to be right or do you want to be happy?

     Finally, it sounds like porn is giving you a distorted view of reality.  The reality IS most men (your age) are not having sex with multiple partners, multiple women, etc.  They are struggling with the same things you are.  

     Consider focusing on continuing to learn about yourself, about women and relationships.  Learn about how to do better yourself, and you will attract those who are at the same level.  Learn how to ’read’ women very early on so as to not waste your resources (time, effort, energy, labor, money) on women who don’t want the same things you do.   Be a DIFFERENT kind of man. 

301. J.A. 301

     Very well put Denise.  Thank you.

302. Sara Malamud 302

     Yes you can. Now, will this help to find the one? NO. Don’t get distracted. If your goal is to find the one that you want to spend the rest of your life with, why do you need entertaining in the meantime?

303. Damian 303

     I don’t know if I’m alone in my thinking, but I sure hope not.  I believe you can have sex with someone and he would take you seriously if it wasn’t only the sex that was your ongoing bond.  It depends on whether a guy is willing to go beyond the sex to begin with, but if he demonstrates that he is, then by definition, doesn’t that mean he’s taking you seriously?  He’s already getting what is on his (our) mind all the time and yet he’s expressed an interest to pursue alternative bonding with you.  I don’t see how that’s a bad thing.
      
     This would probably only be possible from men who don’t see freely expressed sexuality in women as a negative trait.  I just don’t know how common that is.  I believe that both men and women should be free to express themselves sexually without shame, independently of being in love if they so wish.  That means I don’t judge women for giving it up or for holding out by different standards.  Therefore, if I liked the girl enough to go out with her in the first place, and then to have sex with her right away, I don’t see why things can’t continue from there until that trend changes.  I don’t define a relationship by its “order of operations” — so as long as we’re both still onboard, I see no reason to quit while I’m ahead.
      
     The problem is that I suspect most men are not in the same frame of mind as I am.  That means you’re probably not going to be taken seriously by many if not most men.  The trick is to let loose with one that you suspect will still be interested in you if you didn’t have sex with him right away.  If the answer is yes, then why wait?  Go nuts!  If he then rejects you, at least you unleashed the beast, and you already figured out that the guy was an a**hole before you wasted more time on him!
      
     The world could use a lot more pleasure and a lot less frustration.

304. Jen 304

     100 – Sophie you are right if you have FWB then instead of your sexual desire getting in the way of  a relationship you are getting your sexual needs meet and can look for a man that wants a relationship. I dont agree that woman that want sex are sluts, that is a double standard, men get to have sex without a relationship y should a woman be different? I tried FWB for the first time this year after years of being celibate, the man I am doing this with was someone I was involved with and I care about him so it is not empty , meaningless sex and we had an attraction right away that is still very strong. I dont sleep around and have never slept around but I almost died two years ago and realise just how short life is and I love sex and wanted someone I cared about to be able to be there to satisfy that need without it being some meaningless one night stand with someone i dont care about. Woman have sexual needs just likemen and we should not be judged for these needs. I am not saying sleep around with multiple partners but find one special friend who can handle FWB and then enjoy each other until you find the man you want to commit to and love …..

305. Rhon 305

     WOW!!!!! I found this blog just in the nick of time. I got out of a relationship about 6 months ago, and after a few months of him leading me on, we finally our having time separate from each other. We were together for a year and he is at the center of my sexual desires still.

     Lately, I have been having those sexual drawing feelings of just needing some. It has been more than a month since we had sex. When we were in the relationship, we had sex 5-7 days a week. And when we split, we were still having sex about 3-4 times a week. I felt after us ending everything, that I just want to wait to get connected before I have sex again, but I am finding a problem with it. He was the one who ended the relationship, and unfortunately, I allowed myself to be strung along with false hope for several months after. The issue is that with my decision to wait for sex within a relationship, I find myself being a sexual slave to desiring him still. I don’t have anything but the moments we shared as a reference point for when I please myself or want to go to that place in my mind. It is like torture. If I think about another man, it does nothing for me. I have done a lot of dating since we split. I have no problem with that, but have not found anyone I connect with on a deeper level.

     So recently I have decided it is best for me to find someone I’m atttracted to and have come to know better and like as a person to just have sexual fun with, with no intentions of a relationship future. I need to have his hold on me sexually to be lifted. I feel it has been a distraction in my moving from him. I think we call this a rebound. I need it right now. Just to have a man worship my body and give me pleasure and no stress for anything more. Then my mind and heart and body can become more detached from the man I was in love with, but knowing that relationship will never be mended or come back. When you are a sexual hostage, you have a lot of difficulty moving forward.

     I know it may sound strange, but makes me feel hopeful for my future in finding someone because my soul will not be so connected to the love I lost anymore, if any of that makes sense.

     I was letting myself feel guilty to even want it and feeling bad and dirty, but I’m an adult and so is the person I would share this with and there is nothing wrong with fulfilling desires. I need to do that for myself.

306. Dean Kaplan 306

     I’m so glad I stumbled upon this site.  Evan is spot on, I’ve done it myself–do my best to have sex with a woman as soon as possible, only to label her a whore…
     Bottom line, we’re in a society that overflows with double standards, and this is just one of them.  Even if a guy really likes a woman, the fact that she let him “have some” so early will likely never leave the back of his mind.

307. Dean Kaplan 307

     @ Rhon – You still desire your ex so much physically because you never really stopped messing around with him.  To get over someone, the average person needs at least 2 -3 months of NO contact, otherwise you’re still attached mentally, physically, etc…

308. Jay 308

     There are mixed feelings about casual sex on this site. I’ve just recently got into one with someone who seems really nice, I dunno I’ve known them for like a month. I was only in it for the sex and I kinda wanna get out of it now because this isn’t me and who I used to be. I’m told I can get anyone I want but why am I single? Also some are saying it’s good if you don’t get attached. Yeah, I do that’s why I wanna get out of it now though there is another part of wanting to know how it will go and if I can deal with it- if I can, great! if not, I don’t think I can have a FWB again.
     I feel very immature right now. There’s bigger problems out there to face!

309. Irony 309

     Yes, you can have consequences-free meaningless sex while looking for a LTR.

     …

     Now I posted what people wants to read. Ah, feelin’ so good.

     Bye!

310. Tia 310

     hmmm, well, men do it? thats the first thing that pops into my head, the second is, why are using men’s behavior as an example? personally, i don’t think women can have sex like men, i just dont think its in our nature, alot of it seems to be evolutionary and biological, but that is just my opinion

     personally, i can’t do it and never have been able too! oh there were times i wish i could, but deep down i will admit, i have never really wanted the flings, i have wanted the good relationship and that fuzzy feeling that comes along with loving and being loved. It’s hard enough for me to go on random dates with a few guys within a short time span and not get flustered, i can’t imagine if i was having sex with them.

     but of course, everyone is different, and random sex and hookups seem to be far more common today, i think Evan gave her great advice about men being “sexual hypocrites” and i’d go as far to say is, you might not find love while looking for sex.

311. Rob 311

     I’ve been divorced for about 10 years.  I’ve never had sex with any woman other than my ex, so I’m truly monogamous.  It’s not that I’m a toad or anything (I’ve been described by women as handsome and gorgeous).  It’s just that sex is such a deep and personal shared experience, that I could never bring myself to have a meaningless one-night stand.  I’ve always believed that sex should be reserved for long term, committed relationships.  My only other relationship was with a very beautiful woman that I dated for 2-1/2 years after my divorce.  Because of her “Suzanne Somers” looks, friends could not believe we had a platonic relationship.  Would I consider a long-term relationship with a woman with a promiscuous background?  Absolutely not.  

312. Ellen 312

     I love Sophie #25′s comments- so on the mark!

     Like the original woman, I have wrestled with this dilemma also- when to sleep with a neat guy. I think it’s decidedly generational, ’cause kids in their 20s, 30s don’t seem to agonize over it like us boomers do. I was raised to believe that a woman who sleeps around is a slut, period.

     What I’m finding is this:

     *oxytocin is powerful, but it’s individual. Some women can do casual sex. I mostly can’t.

     *no matter what our age, we are the PRODUCT of our hormones. Men avoid commitment, women seek it, no matter what their age. You have to WORK to overcome this biological fact.

     *I’ve mostly had just one fwb (1 yr. and counting) and he has made it possible for me to be MORE selective with the men I date, not less, as my needs are taken care of (sporadically, but taken care of). Because the pressure is off (no commitment) you can become pretty good friends actually. I treasure his friendship and I think he treasures mine. We are friends until we get behind closed doors, then it is wonderful, white hot cougar sex. Memorable. Then I date some til we come back together again, etc.

     *Men ARE sexual and emotional hypocrites, at least those over 45 or so (before sex became really casual in this country). I point it out to them upfront and they are always so surprised. But they always agree with me, always. Of the two, the emotional hypocrite aspect troubles me the most. They can woo me, text me the most outrageous bs, intense emotional stuff, but God help me if I reciprocate- then I am “out to get them, make them commit”.  They never verbalize it thusly, but the effect is the same…So I keep my mouth shut. As a result, I have let men alter my basic personality which is quite loving actually. Pisses me off, let me tell you, but I have yet to find a solution.

     & the male ego is such that they assume you have fallen for them when they haven’t a clue the type of man you do fall in love with! They assume because you become interested in their lives, family, are loving, you have fallen for them. Then the game playing begins as you try, try, try to get across subtly that you are NOT head over heels with them (they get so complacent at that point, it annoys the hell out of me!)…Please! I’ve dated dozens of men in my life but only fallen in love with 3. NEVER assume men.

     So dating is easy- but the early stages of a relationship are, imo, murder, devolve often into game playing for the above reasons. It’s exhausting.

     PS Sophie is right: The most recent brain research by Brizentine out of Stanford IS men fall harder and faster than women than formerly thought. I recommend everyone read her book on the male brain (NY Times Bestseller). She’s also written a book on the female brain…

313. CuteCosmic 313

     @ SOPHIE: I LOVE YOU! And why? Because you are an open-minded person who is a rushing breathe of fresh air to me. Thank you so much!!! You are a pioneer with the future in mind. You are an inspiration to me and every female who wants to be liberated from the chains of bondage from old-fashioned male-ego-driven society. You are awesome! Thank you! ^_^V

     ~CuteCosmic~

314. CuteCosmic 314

     Anyhow, in my opinion on this whole discussion here…. All I want to find is a man who is open-minded (non-judgemental) of me, who is understanding of me (who just “gets me”), and lets me do whatever I want to do (because God knows I have been suppressed all my life) because he truly loves me. 

     To give a very basic theoretical example, if I want to have sex with a hot sexy guy while dating this LTR guy, this LTR guy better be ready to truly love me by letting me do the hell or heaven I want because if he doesn’t, I’ll be gone. And if this LTR guy doesn’t have what I want and ends up being a clingy guy who will try to get in my way of my endeavors of lustful passions or whatnot, I will be resentful and bitter to this LTR guy for the rest of my life and even after death. Like the old saying goes, “HELL HAST NO FURY LIKE A WOMAN SCORNED.”

     Also on the side note, if this LTR guy truly loves me, then he should be able to let me go to a better man who will love me, or better yet to someone that I love, even if it’s not the LTR guy.

     All in all, the guy who loves me will know what’s best for me by letting me go and do what I want to do, no matter what. And that is what I think is love, even if it’s selfish on my part, at least I know what I want in my life and I’m secure in what decisions I make for my life, regardless of the pain it may cause the one who loves me. And you know why? Because I have being bleeding love for the rest of my life and if the guy who loves me doesn’t see that, then he is not worthy of my love nor my affections or attentions. End of story.

     But don’t get me wrong, I’m not a jerk who’s out to ruin all of the innocent men out there who’s truly a hopeless romantic. Remember, I was once a hopeless romantic too. Just this time, I’m going to be better prepared and now I know what I want in my life and if suddenly this LTR guy is truly the guy that loves me the way I want to be loved, then I will be a loyal and trustworthy wifey for this guy for his patience and self-control, and most importantly, for his deep and over-flowing love for me.

     And yes, I’m deeply religious and morally inclined to wait till after marriage. Now put that on your platter, all you haters!~ XP MUAHAHAHAHAAA!!!!~

     ~CuteCosmic~

315. matey 315

     It’s a sad fact  but a lot of men do judge women who have sex with them early on. It happened to me when myself and a friend of two years fell in love. I thought I knew him well so I thought nothing of sleeping with him straight away. He just cut me off afterwards, no friendship and no reason. Eventually he told a friend of mine that it was because I had sex too soon and he couldn’t cope with the idea of me being able to do that.

     And I am British! So all this talk of European’s not having the double standard is rubbish: my ’friend’ was not a one off…

     Also, if safety weren’t an issue, I’d have had a lot more casual sex in my life, but there’s no turn off ike the prospect of attack.

316. Tom 316

     I met my girl friend as a one night stand…things just clicked.. I was not looking for a relationship at the time, but I think she was open to one if the right guy came along. I gave her my number….a couple days later she called and we hookd up again…This time I started to see the wonderful person she was.. She had been pomiscuous aftr her divorce, so I was cautious. Her pesonality won me over, and we are still together, and talking marriage after nearly two years….So it can and does happen….

317. reneen 317

     It is NEVER ok to engage in casual sex. This leads to further spread of STDs. Gential herpes is a life long disease that can be spread by simple skin-to-skin contact. I know, I have it. I got it from someone who was reckless with their sexuality, to say the least. I regret my lack of knowledge of STDs. Too late for me but not for you.

318. Cris 318

     I’ve been going through this same conundrum lately and what I’ve found is this…if you want to engage in casual sex you CANNOT do it with new people you may possibly seek a long-term relationship with.
     Men pressure women for sex, but they hold it against you once you actually “give it up”. Stupid, old-fashioned phrasing, I know, but men are old-fashioned, unrational creatures.
     It’s safer to find a steady booty call – and I hate to say it – but the mostly likely person is an older, bored married man who has no interest in leaving hom but wants or needs a shag now and then. Or someone you can be completely honest with who is not interested in a realtionship but can satisfy you sexually until you find a steady.
     The truth is – adult women need to have their sexual needs fulfilled. Women are punished with labels for fulfilling a simple biological need. We’re called easy, slutty, whorish, whatever—all for the crime of knowing when our bodies want and need sex and actually seeking out what we need. We’re supposed to be superhuman and simply “wait”.
     Wait for a man to deem us worthy. Wait for a man to say we’re not too fat, too thin, too short, too tall, too smart, too dumb, too prudish, too easy, too wealthy, too poor, too meek, too powerful…
     In other words, while you’re waiting for Mr. Right to make up his mind, there’s nothing wrong with getting your groove on with Mr. Right Now.

319. Sher 319

     Right so! we do not know how many partners she had, how old she is, and the circumstances of her meetings. It doesnt matter really. Many women go through ’slut’ phases. However, the only thing she should take under consideration is that as her numbers goup… she’ll probably get lost in her own game. It’ll be hard for her to separate the right guy from the wrong guy. Thats when your going to need a time out Melanie! BUT BUT, i also have a theory that the right guy will find you…but only if your happy with yourself…IF NOT…your going to keep on getting what you deserve! Sex and no longterm bf. Its hard to have both.
     Be safe (most importantly) and keep your eyes wide open! good luck!

320. jenny 320

     I only have one thing to say – don’t have meaningless sex because SEX should never BE MEANINGLESS!  At some point, would you be able to tell the difference? To me, the best things in life are those worth waiting for!  As Reneen said earlier, all it takes is one time to get a disease you’ll carry with you for the rest of your life.  Is it worth it?  I say NO.

321. V 321

     Very much disagreed with Evan’s stance here. I was once celibate for more than a year because I hadn’t found the right relationship. After that much time, I just needed to get %$#@ed. Really needed it. I found someone for a short casual relationship and it had the predictable attachment and emotional ups and downs. It was a bit messy and I certainly had moments of sadness, pain, and low self esteem in addition to the great moments. BUT, when that was over, I felt more sexual and feminine, and qutie frankly, more human! I was then open to connecting with the right guy in dating and dating was much better after.

322. Evan Marc Katz 322

     @V – Read the title of the article. It wasn’t “Can you ever have No-Strings-Attached Sex in Any Circumstance”, it was “Can You Have Meaningless Sex While You’re Looking For a Long-Term Relationship.” You were NOT looking for a long-term relationship. You just wanted to get %$#@ed. So your story doesn’t apply in the least.

323. MNP 323

     I think it’s a moral and discipline issue. If you are truly looking for something long-term then why distract yourself with short-term hook-ups. It kind of defeats the purpose.

324. Jen 324

     Ive read some of the responses here and this is what I have to say , I was single and celibate for 7 years after I ended my last relationship. I met a man and we connected from the start , he however had issues and so after two months we stopped dating but i suggested FWB because we were great together in bed and out and I had missed the cuddles,companionship and affection AND I thought if I got sex from him Id be less likely to want it from a guy that I might want a relationship with ! we are still doing FWB a year or more later and I dont expect a relationship, and I still love snuggling up with him and the physical affection, we know each other so well but that doesnt make sex boring it makes it better and we are so comfortable with each other . I will admit that because i do care about him when he dates its hard on me BUT I try to balance this with meeting men for dating as well and though I have not met my match yet i keep meeting men . I think you can have the best of both worlds if you just have clear communication and always respect !

325. Carla 325

     I disagree entirely. I had a recurring-hookup partner, the best guy I could find at the time. I think we both knew we wouldn’t get along in a relationship, but we were extremely physically attracted to each other enough have meaningless sex. We hardly ever stayed to cuddle, and there was never breakfast. Note that up until this point, I had not yet met anyone I wanted to date.

     So, when I finally met someone I really liked and wanted to invest my time and love into, I dropped the FWB, and began cultivating a relationship with the person I liked, without being needy for the sex of which I would have otherwise been deprived in the “meaningless” months.

     It may not be for everyone, but it worked very well for me.

326. Ray 326

     In general, I’d argue that staying focused on one’s true goal is a better bet for many, many things.
     However, I also feel that involuntary celibacy (male or female) has its own consequences.  Me personally… I feel my overall health and mental wellness suffer if I’m touch deprived.  
     @318… totally agree. 
     I have no problems having sex with men who aren’t relationship material while I ‘court’ men who are.  Just like men do. 
     … and ladies…. never, EVER tell any man about your sex life.  You think it is creating intimacy and all that crap… but it is just that, crap.  Make up a story and stick to it.  If you end up really liking a guy and sleeping with him in less than a month of dates… you either end it first or keep him around as a FWB.  Cause it is going nowhere.  The only ones keeping the double standard alive are women who think they have to be ‘celibate’ while they wait for Mr. Perfect… or who think they have to confess everything to Mr. has-slept-with-more-people-than-you and feels the need to judge you. 
      

327. GOD 327

     all sex is meaningless except for the fact it’s what men need to get by. if it wasn’t meaningless, women wouldn’t use it as a tool for their plans of revenge when they are upset.

328. TJ 328

     A woman can have meaningless sex while looking for a relationship if she  chooses the partner(s) wisely, stays clear about the fact that she is just scratching an itch, and keeps those partners separate from her real life.  In other words, you need to choose men that you do not/cannot hope to have relationships with, forego the fake dating/expressions of affection and all the other relationship fake-outs, and ensure that those partners stay in their place and do not insinuate themselves into other aspects of your life or take up significant amounts of your time. Not every woman can do it and it shouldn’t be a big part of your life, but it has been managed.  

329. Quinn 329

     I only made it through like 50 of comments but I got the general idea for the majority of the people who post here. I don’t know if anyone else pointed this out, but I’m going to anyway:

     1. This is the United States. As much as people keep saying “In Europe its this way….”, “In Europe its that way….” it has nothing to do with the way it is in the US. Period.

     Lets stop playing this game that this doesn’t still matter because it does. I get it you know 30 people who don’t care so naturally you extrapolate those figures and think most people don’t. The numbers tell a different story. Isn’t  that called a representative heuristic. Look up the term.

     2. A culture is defined by history. The history of the United States is completely different than that of other parts of the world. The values that we were defined on while not as strict and always changing are still pretty prevalent in our everyday world. Sure less people have religious beliefs today than they did 70 years ago, but if you polled the US you would find them still the majority right?

     If a girl in Pakistan lamented about how women in other parts of the world were able to go to school, and walk around in bikinis and had the same rights as men do you think she wouldn’t be beaten within a inch of her life? Highly doubtful.

     3. You can’t control how other people perceive things. For example you have 3 people. A man “Tom” and two women “Lisa” and “Mary”. Tom is 35 and ready to settle down and start a family while Lisa is 28, and Mary 29. Now Tom had fun in his late teens, college and early on in his career. At 35 he has slept with say 30 women. Lisa is sexually conservative and at 28 has only had 5 partners while Mary has had 25. Tom has been seeing both casually dating and has a great time with both equally. The values of the two women are pretty similar and in line with the type of woman Tom would want to marry.

     Now Tom wants to figure out which one has more long term relationship potential so he asks both how many partners they have had. They both tell the truth. Tom chooses Lisa over Mary because he feels she is the most pure. Mary is angry because hey Tom has slept around too. Lisa has no problem with Toms partner count and they enter a relationship.

     Shit like this still happens. Is it fair? Nope. Hypocritical? Yep. Double standards on the part of the man? Absolutely.

     But what can Mary do about that? Nothing. Find someone else.

     I guess you could argue that she is better off and hell she might be but this still happens everyday. There are men who have been pasted up for years and finally women see them as a catch because their biological clock is ticking. This man has 7 partners total while the woman has 20. What do you think the odds are that he will have a problem with that?

     I read somewhere: “In the land of starving sluts the prudent virgin is queen.”

     Whole lot of merit to that statement, no?

     I think people always want logical and rational explanations for everything. They want equality and fairness for all. When has that shit ever happened? When?
     A sociology professor once told me that it took 8-10 generations for a cultures mindset to be completely changed. Racism is alive and well still right? The message of feminism has not wiped out anything. Put a dent in it maybe, but the ideas still kickin’. 

     I’ve been spending a lot of time in the realm of dating and relationship and I have read blogs from the perspective of feminist, PUAs, Alpha game, MRAs etc and I find it quite funny how everyone who frequents these specific blogs seems to have the exact same mindset.

     Don’t birds of a feather flock together? 

     I think Melanie should choose whichever she wants. She should realize though that there are risks and benefits to both. People can only control themselves they don’t get to dictate others reactions to it. 

     That being said I wish that was pointed out for the people who read this and are influenced negatively by it. Sure their are women who can have casual sex but there are a whole lot who can’t. There are a lot of men who can have casual sex but there are still a fair amount who don’t care for it. Maybe perceptions change over a lifetime and that would be understandable but a person who has been happily married for 40 years and a person who has been divorced twice have two distinctively different views about the value of marriage.

     Sorry for all the analogies and the long post. I was just annoyed with all the skewed comments. 

     Disclaimer: I hope I don’t get accused of being a man. I am not. 

330. dave 330

     Bottom line: the reason women struggle with finding a “desirable” man to commit is because of this awesome new society for single men that feminists created. We stil have our carrers, hobies, friends etc…but we can have commitment free sex with all the fun-dinner-sex type women out there and then settle down witha nice family girl when we dicide the time is right. Feminism has created an army of single women that has been incredibly empowering for single men with desirable qualities. Personally, I just can’t devote my heart and soul and raise a family with a women with a promiscuous past. I just feel rather imascualted by it. I think of a women that has emotionless sex with a bunch of guys as a masculine thing to do. Lol, has nothing to do with “confidence” or insecurity or all the other excuses the feminists have created in their fantasyland. You must understand that at 31, after working hard to become propserous and make the right deciusions in life, be there for family and friends, staying in shape etc…I, or any other man hasd the right to choose a “nice” girl for marriage or ltr just like women have every right to sleep around if that’s what makes them happy. But don’t start name calling and attacking a man’s masculinity because he prefers a nice family girl to settle down with. No guy wants to be the “nice guy” schmo that devotes his life to a women that has given away ther milk for free during her most attractive years. If you are a confident man and no your worth than you don’t have to settle because the feminists say so. Take advantage of the fruits of feminism and have your fun with all the single women and then settle down with a women you want to raise your children and be your companion until your old and gray. Feminism liberated men from unneccessary commitment inexchange for sex, and no reason we can’t feel empowered tbuy it too. For every action there is a reaction and I don’t think the feminists thought about how the scales would tip when you create a society where commitment free sex is in huge supply for single men.

     (Editor’s note: Dave doesn’t speak – or spell – for the author of this blog)

331. Margaret 331

     @Dave,

     I can only say that I thank God all men don’t share your attitude toward women!

332. Ray 332

     This theme comes up quite often in dating… the topic of when, with whom, to have sex, etc.  The topic of double standards never fails to come up when discussing this topic either.

     What I find interesting is that there are many men who feel that the sexual component of a relationship is extremely important (as do women)… but seem to express somewhat confusing behavior when it comes to the women they choose.

     They want women to be ’pure’, but they want her to like sex too.  They want her to be open-minded, but somehow also be ‘chaste’…  They marry the ‘good girl’ who holds out, but then gripe about not getting sex after marriage.  Seems kind of retarded to me.  Why not go for the girl who likes sex but has some standards too?  I’m pretty sure it isn’t all or nothing…

     What it really comes down to…  is some men being patently unable to accept responsibility for their own sexuality.  Dave’s opinion is a perfect example of that.  Men with those opinions seem to believe (falsely, I think they’ll discover) that a woman who has standards for fidelity and sexuality will give men a free pass just because of ‘biology’.  A smart woman won’t.   

       If a woman has chosen her partners wisely, she should run, not walk, from men who expect women to be the moral arbiter.  Men like that aren’t likely to be faithful, IMHO.  They have a ‘hey, it’s on the table, so might as well take it” approach to sexuality that practically guarantees she’ll be cheated on down the road.  Oh, I have no doubt that MEN like women whom have protected her sexuality… so HE won’t be cheated on… but again, it’s women’s job here to quickly weed through men who aren’t suitable partners.

     Men who hold double standards when it comes to sexuality don’t make good partners.  

     I’ve argued in past posts that women should lie about their sexual history, and my opinion on that hasn’t changed.   On the other hand, sometimes being honest about one’s life is the only way to find out if he does hold double standards.  However, there are many other ways to figure this out that don’t involve radical honesty on the woman’s part.  Women can figure this out by observing how he treats and talks about other women…. NOT by sharing her past…   

     yes, I realize that could be construed as a double standard for honesty.  Shrug.  At the end of the day, I suppose all we have is what we can observe in the here and now.  So perhaps that is the real message.  Observe someone’s behavior now and how they conduct themselves.  Sometimes letting the past stay in the past is the best thing for everyone.   

333. Rose 333

     Can you blame guys for not wanting to settle down with a girl who has a slutty past? Can you blame girls for not wanting to settle down with a guy who has been a total man-whore? The answer is NO. If a girl wants to have casual sex then fine, but she shouldn’t be surprised when guys don’t take her seriously. if a guy wants to be a player then fine, but he shouldn’t be surprised when girls are afraid to commit to him. What kind of guy wants to settle down with a Samantha Jones? Want kind of girl wants to settle down with a Chuck Bass?
      

334. Saint Stephen 334

     @Rose
     All the men-whore i know don’t have a problem settling down or finding a woman who is willing to commit to him if that’s they want. A man becomes a man-whore because a lot of women finds him attractive – but I’m afraid it’s not so with women. Most philandering men i know are banging both slutty and conservative women alike, and are often less willing to commit to any of them. See Tucker Max.  

335. Jane 335

     Woohoo! After a “sexual drought” and a major physical illness , I feel eager to get back on the horse. I have dated four times (no sex till now) a nice enough man whoI met online. I now dont believe we could develop a LTR (he is recently separated from GF , geographic distance issues, he hasnt sorted his life and kids etc)  and he has stated he is not “ready” .BUT , he is hot , honest and keen .No need to ditch him entirely so I  suggested a casual encounter…
     These are my rules .
     1.casual does not mean “lazy” – I expect dinner , drinks and FUN before bed.
     2.He does not meet me in my town nor come to my home for any casual encounter (I dont want to confuse family , friends , neighbours about who he is and the exact relationship and I dont want to cook and clean in preparation for him. We may share a bed but he doesnt get to share my life and friends/family)
     3. I decide what works for me. If it feels bad I exit stage left .Its all about ME.Yep, I mean that. Naturally he wont do it if he doesnt want to.
     4. i am dating others meanwhile looking for something meaningful and staying open to getting to know someone.. Therefore he takes second place to a “real” date.
     He now understands the rules of engagement , though he initially suggested that if he couldnt come to my home, that his was not tidy enough so perhaps I was adventurous enough to consider an outdoor encounter instead! I laughed politely and reiterated rule 1.
     This will happen on my terms or not at all. I have learned in the past that a FWB is possible if the rules are strictly enforced and boundaries kept intact.
     Will keep you posted.

336. Tabittha 336

     Dear Evan,

     I’ve read through several advices of yours and usually agree, but I am not quite on one page with you regarding this issue. As you wrote:
     “Men are usually sexual hypocrites who push you to have sex quickly and judge you for having sex quickly … I’m not saying it’s fair or right. I’m saying it’s real” – True, most men are hypocrites. But why would anyone want to waste their time on “most men”? I am not looking for “most men” – I am looking for an equal partner who sees me and treats me as an equivalent human being and would never judge me for something he also does / did.
     So as it may be that most men will judge women who act “manly” in their sexuality, but who the hell cares? Those men were nothing more than some random pastime anyway. Real men, who are confident enough in their masculinity don’t have a problem with regarding a woman as an equal person – and judging them accordingly, without using double standards.
     I have always avoided playing hard to get and other ridiculous games with men – if I had the desire to engage in sexual interaction, I did. And I always observed that those men, who were meant to stay, did, despite of this. My current relationship also started like this, and so has the marriage of most of my friends.
     So I don’t think that having occasional flings necessarily means that you reduce your chances of finding real love. It can just as easily come across you in situations which started out as just two adults having some fun.
     But then again – even though I do not think that this has much to do with it – but as I skimmed through previous comments I noticed that a lot of people commenting do – I actually am European, living in Europe so this might be why I see this question differently.

337. NonExist 337

     I agree with Jennifer in post 11.
     She can keep a casual sex guy or have some one night stands while holding off on sex or just behaving differently towards a guy who she feels has reltionship potential.

     And the timing of sex has nothing to do with whether or not all men will stay with a woman.  It is her other qualities which ake or break it for some of us.
     I’ve known women I have had sex with on the first date that I have had the most enjoyable relationships with and those I’ve waited for whose personality or views which allowed me to determine we were not compatible for anything even before we had sex.

     As other posters have said, it has to do with the personal esteem of the man in question.  I’ve often been on the defense end of conversations regarding women with my male friends because I defended the women.
     It just amazed me how they could be so callous in judging her promiscuity when it was the main reason they went after her.

     And an old friend of mine at work had this issue. The guys would smile in her face and dog her out behind her back.  I called them a bunch of cowards and refused to be in their little group.

     I’m not perfect but I try my best not to be a hypocrite.

338. Mitzi 338

     I’ve read through almost all of these comments and it’s fascinating. I love having great sec about as much as any guy I know (biblically or otherwise). And I’ve been known to get “my needs met” when I’m not in a relationship and haven’t met anyone that particularly inspires me to start one for a while. But after reading all of these comments, I still don’t really know how to handle a situation where you finally meet a guy you’re really attracted to and genuinely like who you’d love to go to bed with – and he obviously wants to, too. In fact, he’s quite clear about it. I just went out with a guy who totally pushes all my buttons and I’m excited to see him again. BUT, as much as I would love to enjoy him sexually right now, I don’t want to screw up the potential for what MIGHT be something more. However perochial the U.S. is or isn’t, we do live here.

339. DinaStrange 339

     Oh, you men are such hypocrites. So, if a guy will sleep with me on a first date he is not a slut but if i will, i am? This is a very self serving statement for men. I’ll tell you what girls – do what you want, just be careful not to be emotionally attached. If a man sleeps with you on a first date, he is just as easy as you, so u are TWO EQUALS. 

340. Susan61 340

     The double standard is alive and well.  I doubt it will ever go away, it’s just the way it is.  Women will always be judged unfairly when it comes to sex and men are just being men.  I often say I’d like to be a man in my next life so I don’t have to deal with the double standard.  I know men have their own set of problems in life but they rarely have to worry about being called a slut, being “easy”, giving it up too soon, dressing too slutty, being dumped after having sex for the first time, etc.
      
     As to the original question, I have not been able to have meaningless sex since my last break up which was (gasp) over three years ago.  Oh wait, I did have a one night tryst about two years with an old ex and it was so awful that I decided against anything further.  At this point though, I am going a little crazy and afraid I’m going to be celibate for the rest of my life because at 50, it is indeed very difficult to find a suitable mate.  I try to count my blessings and enjoy life on a daily basis, albeit without sex, as I continue to keep my heart open for another man to walk into my life.  I do have several suitors at the moment, any one of whom I am sure I could have casual sex with, but then I consider the pros and cons.  The cons:  possibility of STD’s (even with condoms), another “notch” in the belt that never bodes well for women (unlike men), the possibility of hurting the other person or getting hurt – emotions can get messy in “casual” relationships, the sex might be terrible and embarrassing, word might get around that I slept with this guy (again, fear of the double standard and being harshly judged), if we know the same people or social group it can have implications socially if it doesn’t work out or someone’s feelings get hurt. 
      
     The pros:  I can possibly have good sex with a man I have no future with. 
      
     The cons outweigh the pros for me, it appears.
      

341. Katherine Wakefield 341

     When i met my ex-boyfriend, he was pushing for us to sleep together on the first night.  I resisted.  I asked him some months later would he have had a second date with me had i slept with him.  He said no.  If its available he would have taken it but not a girl he would have liked to take home to his mother or for long term commitment!
     This is an age old debate with a lot of hypocrisy attached to the gender you are, whether or not its deemed as acceptable.  The most important thing for me is to be sure of YOUR decision, of what you want to do!

342. Danny 342

     These lifestyles of casual sex only discredits a person, and invites the presumption of other people doing the same thing. It creates an atmosphere of distrust, disloyalty, deviousness, adultery, promiscuity, and every other possible dysfunctional thing that can potentially be disastrous. This applies to both genders. Sexuality and emotions are never to be separated nor disunited between two people – ever. It makes immoderate of many things.

     It lacks many things that should never be compromised in a person, especially with people who want to find a person to commit to: integrity; a humane sense of moderation; self-restraint; and unorthodox and immoderate sexual desires derived from infatuation without intimacy – when infatuations, intimacy, etc should not be separated from sexuality. With all the thinking done that creates arousal between two people only brings about an urge two people have more difficulty keeping in control. Because you have more attitudes, dispositions, mentalities, etc that allow the urges to control you instead of you controlling the urges and control of yourself. It would not matter what a person’s financial status, social status, etc might be. Because when you allow room for those urges to grow, proliferate, etc – you allow room for disaster – especially when you are already in a long-term relationship.

     It is a poor compensation for dealing with emotional inadequacies when their derived source(s) stem from things other than sexual urges – which some people continue to obfuscate by turning away from trying to seek the real truth about one’s inner-self. There are many things a person does to be and feel desired that do not need to involve sexuality, but do attribute to aspects of wanting to impress and/or please a person (which does have an effect on how you perceive an individual) – those other character traits and/or attributes that truly validate the desirability of an individual (ability to cook, teach, listen, integrate themselves in the interests of the other person and vice-versa, create an atmosphere of peace, relaxation, and comfort) – which do take a great deal of work, etc. The lack of desire is likely to start when two people stop trying to inspire one another.

     If a person chooses to have casual sex while seeking a long-term relationship, that person must accept being judged unfairly, discriminated, and oppressed. Because such a person is entitling themselves to exercise the power to choose while displacing energy on physical gratification. Separating or relativizing this issue only proves that a person is deciding when they are accountable and liable and when they are not. You might as well start comparing that behavior with the mentality of a pornographic actor/actress – and learn the real complications of the human emotional psyche. There is no gender stereotyping with emotions. Emotions identify a sense of humanity in a person. There is no saying whether or not Tiger Woods learned that lesson, and the status does not matter when you can allow fantasies and desires to be directed to any person other than the person you want to be involved with. Emotions of the two people must integrate compatibly, with a lot of work in making them integrate compatibly – not clash. Here’s is an interesting example of personality clashes between two people (think of that movie “Twister” with that guy who is a storm chaser, and the fiancee (I think fiancee) who is terrified of tornadoes. She is emotionally paralyzed with fear).

     If a person has serious relationship potential, your energy should be devoted to determining that. When a person is going to give you more of their attention, scrutiny, and serious thought – reciprocate that in the fullest. Thinking it is ok to have casual sex instead of abstaining – especially when the other person may be abstaining – is selfish. If there is a need to get physically close to a person, I think it is better to do so with a person you want to be serious about. Smooth talking, dating tactics, leverage, etc will only suggest more discrepancies than anything else – unless a person has something really genuine to show for their actions. More energy devoted to being able to be physically and sexually attractive with the intent to have casual sex is less energy devoted to one’s own personal developed, self-cultivation of one’s lifestyle, balance (emotionally, psychologically), and the individual things that attribute and/or contribute to one’s own sense of self-worth. Devoting one’s energy to the things they care about (sport, work, hobby, etc) does show in their actions – or at least showing there is a lifestyle about the person. It is something you cannot judge quickly or wrongfully until you learn to assess those things in a person. I would feel miserable and depressed if I felt sex was the one thing that appealed my attention the majority of the time.

     Sexual intercourse holds a lot more meaning, value, etc with a person who truly represents themselves to be fascinating, and tries to be fascinating (lifestyle, hobbies, real interests, having their own developed personal world). It really does matter to define your individuality in every aspect instead of just narrowing the thoughts towards a specific theme (I need to feel desired. I need to feel attractive. I need to be touched, etc). I know there are many long shot goals which may be unrealistic, but one must try anyway. Sexuality has a specific place in life. It does not compensate for trying to recover from an injury or illness. It does not compensate for a tragic death of a close friend or family member.

     The double standard exists with both genders. Men who sleep around are perceived and labelled with the following terms: lothario; womanizer; pig; trash; manwhore; playa; etc. There are many labels for women also.

     It is true. Men are afraid of women being capable of having casual sex. As a man, it does bother me. I hate that men do so. For those who are older and have experienced more heartbreak, it is very tragic and bitter. For those who see casual sex as more of a luxury and gratification, lavishness does go too far. It is time to learn the real meaning of sexuality in maintaining a quality of life. Enabling this behavior is more damaging than good. With those who think FWB are ok while making a more serious person wait. You have no idea what complications you are getting yourself into.

     Having similar interests does not fully substantiate for compatibility. Having similar interests with the similar purpose(s), similar reasons, similar timing, etc directs more towards real compatibility. Many people like coffee, but choose to have coffee for their own reasons, their own timing, etc. You place your own desires above those who you would want to be serious with – lopsidedly. Using sexuality as leverage and as a means of power is a serious abuse of something sacred and intimate. Using sex (seemingly like a bargaining chip, or a quality) as some incentive is …………more frivolous, and merely being more polite. The word “friend” nowadays is used quite loosely. This use of sex is more polygamous, with the exception that you cut off FWB when a person of your preferences comes along. This moral code appears to be really ill-defined. If there are little white lies, they attribute to much larger lies – and that is a serious accountability and liability issue. What exactly can moral codes say about that? How are those defined? Eventually, there are obligations a person cannot defer, or dump onto someone else. Those things, as with anything seriously dysfunctional, do constitute harm – very ill-defined. Watch Sister-Wives. You will learn how complicated things really get with that type of setting on dividing and separating things of love just does not work so well.

     Immoderate use of sexuality eventually becomes demeaning, devalued, etc – like anything misappropriated and/or abused. A person is defined by the things they do, not just by what the things they think and/or say – self-defeating.

     There are serious implications with casual sex.

343. Karl R 343

     Danny said: (#342)
     “Men are afraid of women being capable of having casual sex. As a man, it does bother me. I hate that men do so.”

     You are afraid of women who are capable of casual sex.
     It bothers you.
     You hate the men who have casual sex.

     I believe that summarizes your entire post. The rest seems to be your justification for those feelings.

344. Danny 344

     I typed “I hate that men have casual sex.” Hating that men have casual sex doesn’t equate to “hating men who have casual sex.” It is hating the action being done, not exactly hating the gender.

345. Danny 345

     @ Karl R. Here’s the exact quote ” I hate that men do so.”

346. Paragon 346

     @ Susan61

     “The double standard is alive and well. I doubt it will ever go away, it’s just the way it is. Women will always be judged
     unfairly when it comes to sex and men are just being men. I often say I’d like to be a man in my next life so I don’t have
     to deal with the double standard. I know men have their own set of problems in life but they rarely have to worry about being called a slut, being “easy”, giving it up too soon, dressing too slutty, being dumped after having sex for the first time, etc.”

     That is because, the majority of males are deprived of options for casual sex – a reputation many would *gladly* trade for the opportunity.

     It occurs that if there is a double-standard(and the realities of sexual dimorphism necessitates ‘double-standards’ in
     nature), it exists only through the complicity of women – they cannot bring themselves to be equally critical of promiscuous
     males, because they observe that such males tend to be the most physically attractive.

     With women, on the other hand, an opposite pattern seems to emerge:

     “in both male and female demand, sex and looks are complements; all else equal, the better someone looks, the more you want sex with them. In male sex supply, sex and looks seem unrelated; how much sex a man offers has little to do with his looks. In female sex supply, however, it seems that sex and looks are substitutes; the better she looks the less sex she offers.”

     http://www.overcomingbias.com/2010/08/sex-looks-are-supply-substitutes.html

347. Danny 347

     @Paragon

     Interesting points. The greater physical attraction a person may have does direct oneself to having more of a sense of narcisstic character traits – especially when a person’s sense of self-worth is greatly exaggerated and based more on their physical appearance than anything else. But that is just one scenario out of many. Yet, a number of people do more than merely consider on using their physical appearance as leverage. There is a simple replacement for that – a pin-up poster. This applies with both genders. Men who practice this should be judged unfairly for it just as much as the women who practice such things. Practicing the allure for so long can displace a person’s thinking towards unlearning (assuming if a person had any real ideas, principles, values, etc) on what things to do in the event they are in a serious relationship (depending on how a serious relationship will be defined), or forget and/or devalue the more decent and valued aspects of maintaining a serious relationship.

     When it comes to being in a serious relationship, etiquette does not really substantiate for understanding that significant other (special attention, their individual feelings, comforts, discomforts, idiosyncrasies, vulnerabilities, etc – which we all have). Nonchalant behavior is a very short-lived decoy when with a person who is really paying close attention, and the many forms of etiquette and tactics (dating, relationships, etc) do not really personalize the moments that are supposed to be meaningful, relaxed, and moderated. Those are some of the reasons why relationships feel suffocating, because actions, etc are being roboticized instead of people being their own selves. Practice those types of things (dating tactics, ONS, etc) long enough, and that is how you defined a fairly large piece of who you are in your life. Scrutinizing the actions of another person while you are with them VS. scrutinizing the nature (purpose, direction, etc) of the actions of the other person while you are with them are very different things.

     I remember being on a few dates where the person had the conduct of being more like an supervisor and inspector instead of showing their individuality by participating in any sort of involvement or playfulness in an activity (pool, cycling, a walk). It helps to have feedback and initiative from two people instead of just one when going on a date. When I wasn’t seeing much initiative from the other person, I ended the date. When you sense a person’s mind and/or sense of attention appears to be somewhere else, there is a chance it may very well be. People know the things they like to do, and when a person cannot really disclose those things to you when dating, but agrees to go on a date with you – the date is more likely to be subjected to negative scrutiny and some passively uncivilized and self-righteous behavior.

     @Nonexist. How exactly are you trying not to be a hypocrite??

     You typed:
     “And the timing of sex has nothing to do with whether or not all men will stay with a woman. It is her other qualities which ake or break it for some of us.”

     I thought about that a lot, and there are many sides to that statement. When there is a person you are considering, you must understand in developing closeness with that person you are going to have to fully share the type of mentality you have with that person. Being with that significant other is not merely for security – there is a price to pay for wanting a close, comfortable, secure, and stable relationship (emotionally, etc). You must be fully honest in everything of your individuality. Having casual sex with someone else while considering a person more seriously = entitling yourself to have sex with someone who will likely be more of stranger compared to the person you are intending to involve more of your life with – and a person in a relationship is to be closer to the other (emotionally, etc). Being in a relationship for reasons like security, stability, etc does not mean wanting security, stability, etc for your own self. The two people are expected to attribute and contribute to cultivating security, comfort, stability, responsibility, support, etc together as a couple (not separate).

     @Jennifer in post 11. It is time to really get a good head on those shoulders because having casual sex with a person while having another for something more serious is a serious trust privilege violation. If you are capable of doing that while single, you are showing little to no emotional development on showing any real development to self-restraint, and to focus on the many culminations of what makes a man truly desirable in relation to guarding your own sexuality.

     Sexuality has boundaries. When people choose to define them by setting conditions to allow conduct for enabling things we believe to have the right to do what we choose, you are already infringing lopsidedly on the freedoms of those you want to take more seriously. It is even worse when a person in a relationship is going to have one person being more open while the other person open up less. Create any sort of lopsidedness, and divisions have already started taking place.

348. Paragon 348

     @ Steven

     “Here’s the take-away: The “best” get married young because they have solved the social and economic problems of mating by a young age.”

     I would agree that marrying young is a reliable indication of a high affinity for marriage.

     But, since marriage is merely a mating strategy with implications for long-term mating, it’s success(in evolutionary terms) should be measured in producing reproductively successful offspring.

     Thus, all things being equal, I would expect that those who marry younger would tend to be more successful in long-term
     mating(because of age-related fertility effects).

     Of course, the reality of mixed strategies(long term AND short term mating)begs the question of whether marrying later in
     life is *actually* saying something about the net reproductive success of such a demographic.

     “The “best” stay married, in part, because they realize the tremendous competitive advantage a strong marriage holds over other forms of male/female relationships.”

     It would appear to be a fleeting advantage:

     http://articles.cnn.com/2009-04-08/living/out.of.wedlock.births_1_out-of-wedlock-unwed-mothers-wedding-dress?_s=PM:LIVING

     Short-term mating interactions are demonstrating increasing reproductive success, which will soon overtake long-term mating.

     This is saying something very significant, about an evolutionary shift between successful mating strategies(and is actually what we should expect, given that relaxed ecological pressures in developed world populations can no longer sustain the competitive, bi-parental, advantages that favor long-term mating).

349. Lucy 349

     Men go on about how they want a sexually confident woman but when they get one, they can’t handle it. I’m sexually confident but not pushy. I know what I want and I know what gets me off, and I’m a pretty passionate lover…However with my past couple of boyfriends, they couldn’t see me as a sexual being. My last boyfriend didn’t have sex with me or show me any affection for several months. I was very upset about this but all he said was that it was my fault and that “relationships are about more than sex you know”. He also said “I respect you too much to have sex with you”. All I wanted was to feel that he loved me enough to be intimate with me. The fact that I’ve wanted sex more than the people I’ve dated, makes me feel fundamentally unattractive sometimes. 

350. David T 350

     @Lucy 349
      
     Your last boyfriend does not understand what a romantic relationship is in two ways. First, any problem with the relationship as perceived by one person is a problem with the relationship, not just one person. Even if it is something that cannot be solved without one person making a change, it is still a relationship problem that both have a stake in resolving.
      
     “I respect you too much to have sex with you” is BS.  He only has sex with people he does not respect?  He has some issues with sex and guilt OR he was sex avoidant for some other reason and this was his cover story.
      
     It wasn’t you, it was him. I am sorry this has hurt your self confidence. Many men would love to have sex daily (or more often) and few women do.  You will find a lover like that someday.
      
     I once dated a woman who had had a very difficult prior relationship and sexual misbehavior by her partner was a huge part of this. I was concerned about how she felt about sexual contact and always wanted to be quite sure she wanted sex before proceeding. It was important to me that she understood that I was not in our relationship primarily for sex. I wasn’t on eggshells to the point that she initiated all the time, but she did have to make some pretty strong hints sometimes  ( ex. lying down on my bed and stretching out in the middle of a conversation, etc.) Sometimes if I had not been able to see her for several days and we were moving towards sex, I would say things like “My love is not conditional on us having sex.  We don’t have to have sex jsut because we are together today.  I love being with you because . . . “(etc). I wanted her to feel safe in our relationship and that I was not just with her for my gratification, like her prior partner might have been.  I hope this did not make her think I didn’t want her, because I really really did.
      
     I loved her so much that her emotional needs loomed far larger than my sexual wants in a big way.  The problem was that this was my perception of her emotional needs, not ones that I knew she had. I wish I had spoken more openly about why I was cautious about this. We might have had more sex!!
      
     The lesson here is to talk openly with your partner about how you feel about sex and what you want and need from the relationship.  If they feed you an unsatisfactory line about your needs, or repeatedly refuse to discuss a relationship problem as two person conversation, it is time to evaluate whether this relationship can work.

351. motivated 351

     I totally agree with HONEY. I been involved with men on just dating but we were not girl/boy friend and they always assumed somebody (me) was sprung all of a sudden. So I politey cut them off and yes, I had fun but no Im not liking you as much as you may think. im just having fun. Us women have a bad reputation in this area. This mark on us ladys makes it hard for women like me to get to know a guy and have fun with him without him jumping the gun of his im single speech and his incounters with women that he has oxytocined to the max…
     I see what Evan is say though. Save your self the trouble because as women your taking a chance at getting emotionally wraped up in this person and withdrawl is burtal at times. Most of the time i must say it does not happen for me this way. Im picky, I get turned off quickly and I will move on with the quickness after evaluation with my two best friends who are married and scouting for Me. Blessed!

352. Santa 352

     I have read thru most of these (mostly) sick comments. All i have to say is that #1 the west is over. Bread and circuses indeed! # 2 it has been concluded that the probability of developing cervical cancer is much higher in whorish women. Also the sick anti-human/life comments made (mostly by low females). Who feel the need to attack masculinity are certainly feeding into the notion that these loveless societies are sustainable. The true reason why the east and middle-east are gearing up to utterly destroy this abomination of unnatural life. Is as a result of many of the topics covered in these sick posts. Much like an article on smoking dope. Always you will find those advocates who support the use of drugs and who see absolutely nothing wrong with any drug use. So lang as it makes you ‘feel’ good right? These people are low and are already compromised. They are the botany bay, the filth of humanity. There is nothing casual about sex. And the physical reality of various men  entering a woman’s body in mass sums up images of something truly revolting And diseased. War is coming. War to destroy this culture of sickness. This culture of anti-love. This culture that seeks to exploit, degrade and economically, socially disenfranchise Men. all of this is about the degradation of men. There will be no new feminist world. Because this western one is ending. All of this shit has happened before. And just like past civilizations this one too shall burn. Women who sleep around are savages and should be considered nothing more than that. Trust me that most men in the world share my Views.  The usa, europe and other former declining empirialists societies are quite puny next to the world. The world is watching this sickness playout. And it is taking notes. Please continue…

353. Jeff 353

     Well like anything else in the world of dating your actions may or may not have consequences.  The truth hurts but just like anything else, casual relationships could hurt you once the “one” comes along.  Just like any criteria you may have, others may or may not want to establish a long term relationship with a person who has had a lot of casual partners.  Is that fair? No, but dating isn’t fair, is it fair for a guy to be overlooked because he is short or overweight? No, but it’s the truth. 

     I myself, tend to notice many females love to ask and tell how many partners they have had.  I never bring the subject up, but I always seem to find out from the ones who have had a lot.  I tend to lose some interest in them as long term partners.

     The other thing that I find kind of funny is when I do meet girls, they tend to want me as a longer term partner (Mainly due to my job and education etc…) and truthfully withhold sex for a period of time, so I “think of them more a s along term mate.”  The problem is if one of these people have had a lot of partners, there really isn’t anything special about it at all, in all honesty making me wait does not make you any more special nor does it make the act more special.  I either like you or I don’t. It’s really that simple.
      

354. Tim 354

     The number, variety and quality of men available to women for casual sex (short term mating) are much much higher than the number and quality of men available to them for marriage and Long term relationships.
      
     For casual sex, women have access to the best quality men they comes across in life, in their proximity. Men who are good looking, have good bodies, are popular, successful, high-status and possess sexual prowess.
      
     Its a huge discrepancy which causes a lot of issues for women. Many average women who have nothing special about them become bitter and frustrated when high quality alpha males they are used to bang, would disappear once the word commitment is uttered. These women will go on to settle down grudgingly with average looking men who obviously never got to have their fun.
      
     I feel sorry for the average males who settle with these jaded women. I’d say these women are poisoned for the average man who never got to be promiscuous. I think these men shouldn’t invest in such women

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