What Do Men Get Out of Looking At Other Women? (And Why Do Men Cheat?)

What Do Men Get Out of Looking at Other Women? (And Why Do Men Cheat?)

Dear Evan,

What is it that men get out of looking/gazing at beautiful women, nude or otherwise?

I have read on other websites that men actually get a chemical “high” in their brain when they see an attractive woman and that is why they are so drawn to look at other women even when they are in love with another. I’m wondering, from your perspective, what you think it is. Are men sexually “turned on” when they see a beautiful woman naked and automatically fantasize about having sex with her or is it more of just plain old admiration for the beautiful female form with no arousal? And, if it is sexual arousal, does that happen only in seeing a naked woman (magazine, strip joint, porn) or does that happen when you see a beautiful clothed woman as well? I have always been very curious about this as I think it is very different for women. –Cat

Dear Cat,

Thoughtful and provocative question, and I’m going to attempt to tackle it even though I’m no therapist, historian or biologist.

First off, I want to acknowledge that everything you wrote, in my estimation, is true.

Men, regardless of relationship status, get a chemical high in seeing attractive women.

Men can appreciate the female form, either clothed or naked.

Men, regardless of relationship status, get a chemical high in seeing attractive women.

Men are aroused by images of clothed or naked women (but not as much as you’d think.)

What I’d like to add to all of those ideas is that none of that should affect your relationship…unless you make it affect your relationship.

In other words:

GOOD men, regardless of relationship status, get a chemical high in seeing attractive women.

GOOD men can appreciate the female form, either clothed or naked.

GOOD men are aroused by images of clothed or naked women (but not as much as you’d think.)

Without covering the entire landscape of debates about DNA or evolution or propagation of the species, here’s my take on the whole thing:

Men, since the beginning of time, were designed to spread their seed.

Because monogamy lowers the chances that our genes will survive, men are not, by nature, monogamous creatures. We choose monogamy because we deem that it’s more beneficial to have love, stability, and a nuclear family than to have lots of children running around with our eyes. But make no mistake, monogamy is a choice, not a natural state.

Men can watch porn, fantasize about other women, and still be great husbands and fathers.

Anyway, in my estimation, the male sex drive has nothing to do with kindness or personality or compatibility. It is entirely based on physical attraction, which we feel instantly with the release of dopamine, serotonin, and testosterone. This is why men can know if they would sleep with you in less than five seconds.

As far as what’s physically attractive? I think it’s largely based on societal reinforcement. Most men, for example, agree that symmetrical faces with small noses and certain hip to waist ratios (thin waist, wider hips) are considered attractive. Naturally, there are some men who like older women or heavier women or women with one leg. There’s a lid for every pot. Still, a lot of men still want to try on the same lid, who just happens to be 20-30 years old, have stunning features and is built like a Barbie doll. Moving along…

Next, I’d like to assert that a man’s sexual tastes and feelings of attraction don’t disappear because he is in love with another woman.

His intense feelings for his girlfriend may lessen his desires to look elsewhere for sex. But once those intense feelings of chemistry go away (as they usually do after 18 to 36 months – just long enough to conceive and raise a young child), his attraction will still spike every time he sees an attractive woman, in some form or another.

The more self-aware men understand this intellectually, and relegate those spikes of attraction to what they are – biologically programmed bursts of pleasure. We give ourselves doses of this pleasure when we’re walking on a beach, when we’re at an outdoor concert, when we’re at parties, and especially when we’re on the Internet. I’ve heard that 30% of the internet is porn, and if this is the case, it should be no surprise.

Men crave variety. This is normal. It’s all about whether he acts on this desire.

Men can admit attraction to favorite celebrities, and still be great husbands and fathers.

Men can watch porn, fantasize about other women, and still be great husbands and fathers.

Men can go to bachelor parties, go to a strip club, and still be great husbands and fathers.

I know this because I’ve done all of the above and I know I am not alone.

And since the value of my marriage is far greater than the value of sleeping with a stranger in Paris, I remain faithful, even though I’m attracted to other women everywhere I go. It would never even occur to me after 300 dates and nearly 10 years as a dating coach that there’s anyone out there who’d make me happier for the next forty years than my own wife.

That doesn’t mean in some alternate universe that I wouldn’t like to be able to have my cake and eat it, too. That’s essentially what alpha males do – get married and keep sleeping with other women. John Edwards, Bill Clinton, Tiger Woods, Kobe Bryant – we can probably make a list of most politicians, athletes and rock stars.

Men would be perfectly content having missionary sex with a new woman every night.

So why do men cheat?

Because they’re perpetually attracted to new women.

Because they’re high profile, rich, ambitious men who are desirable to these women.

Because they’re so important that they don’t think the rules apply to them.

Because they travel a lot and are frequently exposed to temptation.

Because they don’t value their wives as much as the thrill.

Because they don’t rationally calculate the value of their losses. So Tiger sleeps with a waitress in a Denny’s parking lot and he loses a half billion dollars, his wife, his kids, and his golf mojo. Somehow, I don’t think he considered that with his pants around his ankles.

This is just a long, roundabout way of saying that, in general, men want variety.

I recall a study that said the exact same thing.

Men would be perfectly content having missionary sex with a new woman every night.

Women would be perfectly content with the same man forever, as long as he mixed it up in the bedroom a bit.

The results didn’t surprise me in the least.

Once again, I am not defending men. I am explaining men. Not every single man on the planet. Some men only have eyes for their wife. Some men are attracted to other men. Some men couldn’t conceive of having sex with a woman he didn’t love.

These are perfectly normal men, but they are also exceptions.

So even if we establish that men are driven by sex, it’s far from the whole story, as evidenced by the 50 million married men in the United States.

Simply put, men want love, too. Even if we still like to look elsewhere.

It’s far better to understand and accept these qualities in men than to shame them, insult them, or tell them that they’re wrong for being this way.

As long as he treats you well and doesn’t take action on his desires, you’ve got a good man whose desire for you is stronger than his real sexual impulse to be with someone else.

39
47

Join 7 Million Readers

And the thousands of women I've helped find true love. Sign up for weekly updates for help understanding men.

I hate spam as much as you do, therefore I will never sell, rent, or give away your email address.

Join our conversation (391 Comments).
Click Here To Leave Your Comment Below.

Comments:

  1. 211
    Cano

    The truth is in the day of time we live in. Men and women both have lost mutual respect  for each other and the reasons for being monogamist and not being monogamist. Its a known fact that most every mammal, amphibian, insect ext…  has intercourse with different partners (humans are looked at as a exception but this is in no case true). Men are naturally attracted and enjoy the beauty of women as women do of men. Monogamy was created for boundaries, order, and investment. It all comes down to personal preference and what you want or desire in life. Some men and women are comfortable with having different partners and wanting to experience the feeling, rush or high of  being sexual with a variety of partners. Also some believe that being monogamist gives you a better way of living. A more bond way to raise children and a better financial strong hold. It is also many ways to be monogamist and enjoy sex After a long period of time By understanding your partner. Keeping attraction strong… not letting yourself go physically and mentally… Sharing different activities with one another… not harboring anger… Conversation and appreciation… These all play a main role in keeping the spark alive. 

  2. 212
    Karmic Equation

    @Lisa 150.1,

    Your husband is more likely to be put out/exasperated by your drama than to actually leave you for a woman who makes his d*ck wiggle. Men’s d*cks wiggle all the time. They’re used to it. They notice it like they notice a sneeze. And they forget them just as fast. So relax.

    It’s unrealistic for you to find men who are sexual to not notice other women. If you want an A-sexual man, you are going to have an asexual relationship. You ok with that? I’d rather deal with a guy who craves sex than a man who thinks it’s a chore or who can take it or leave it.

    Be confident that your husband loves you. Your LACKING that confidence is what will make your fears a self-fulfilling prophecy. That said, HAVING confidence doesn’t guarantee a man won’t cheat, but it does inoculate the relationship against cheating. A smart man who loves you won’t cheat on a loving, confident, spouse/gf, because he KNOWS she’ll dump him in a heartbeat and lose something wonderful. And a man who does cheat on a loving confident S.O. isn’t smart and has shown he doesn’t love her, so why would she want to stay in a relationship with a man like that? Good riddance. Yes, your ego will sting, and your heart will be saddened, and you may miss his sorry *ss, but you WILL survive, if you cultivate true confidence in your worth.

    One more thing, just because your man might find another woman attractive doesn’t mean SHE’ll find HIM attractive. He can hope/dream all he wants, but unless you’re married to a 9/10 with lots of money, his ability to get that hot woman he’s looking at is slim to none.

  3. 213
    Daisy

    I am going to have to respectfully disagree with this assertion:

    “Because monogamy lowers the chances that our genes will survive, men are not, by nature, monogamous creatures. We choose monogamy because we deem that it’s more beneficial to have love, stability, and a nuclear family than to have lots of children running around with our eyes. But make no mistake, monogamy is a choice, not a natural state.”

    There is conflicting anthropological evidence on this.
    http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=97579

    1. 213.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Not really. The central thesis of your link is that people have been monogamous forever, and therefore monogamy is “a natural state”. Here’s what the article actually says:

      “What monogamy does is eliminates male to male competition for mates,” he said. “It allows for more cooperation and that allows you to take better care of your young.”

      An interesting biological anthropologist’s theory is that the reason that “chemistry” exists and lasts for 18-36 months is that it’s just enough time for a man to fall in love, impregnate a woman, and stick around to raise the baby for the first year to ensure its survival. I don’t know that it’s true. I do find it compelling. Fact is – as evidenced by men’s interest in porn and women’s complaints of men cheating – that men like variety. And even if women do, too, we see more men acting on this desire for variety. That’s why I wrote this piece. I’m not sure how your link refutes anything I wrote.

  4. 214
    chris weir

    I think it really just comes down to stimulation. variety stimulates. different flavors provide something other than what we are accustomed to. you love something but have it everyday doesn’t make it any less than your favorite, but it does not impact you with the same degree of stimulation as it does the first time or when there is a temporary absence of its presence. a woman puts on a new outfit and make up, different perfume, different expression, different anything and the man will be stimulated again by its novelty. this is no biggie, everyone knows that.

    the problem lies with how the attention of the man is redirected towards another. women don’t want to feel that they need to earn their mens constant attention with antics but rather the man should simply loose interest in being interested at all. If a man becomes accustomed to the same dish its too bad because its what he ordered. 

    men should give their women their attention as it simply is respectful. Men are not robots their is no mental programing they can’t overcome, if a monk can set himself on fire and remain calmly seated as he dies than a man can over come the temptation to see the mini skirt. the real question is, does he want to? does he feel he ought to, has he in some fashion forfeited his human right to see what ever he wants to?

    can a person expect their counter part to no longer view others simply because it provokes ill feelings?

    obviously, no one wants to cause harm to someone they love, but no one cares to lose the freedom to see what the will either.

    there are arguments to both side of the fence but ultimately what is important will always remain that both sides of a relationship must work in order for it to thrive.   

    women and men need to keep in shape, and provide new stimulation for each other. they need to be exclusive in all things relating to sex, any deviation of the spear head results in further course separation from the ultimate destination.

    yes men should stop looking and thinking about others and yes women should perform all that can be done to not cheat a man from that aspect of his life.

    both men and women fail in this, so really before anyone addresses a problem in the relationship make sure you are fulfilling your side as best and honestly as possible. men if you treat your woman as queens they should treat you as kings……..who ever makes the first move in this direction is the right person in the relation ship.      

                      

  5. 215
    SaraT

    Who the hell dies this guy whose written this article think he is ? i. Everything he’s said he refers to it as though they are facts that are true about ALL men! As keeps saying Men like this and men do that. even if he’s done some research that wouldn’t prove that all men think
    and act this way. im in a relationship of 9months now and when I first saw  my boyfriend look at other women he denied it and always has, I always found it hard to believe him but he would reassure me, but since then I still worry about it, he doesn’t do it as much now bit sure if he does it at all. It really upsets him when I don’t believe him when he tells me he’s not attracted to anyone else. So i
    choose to believe him plus it feels better, and I wonder and hope he really means it. I hope there are other men out there who also stop being attracted to other women when they are in love. I really really hope that not all men are the way this article claim them to be. I mean my boyfriend is so different to your average guy his age in so many ways, so it’s not hard to believe that he could also be different to them in respect to this article. 

    1. 215.1
      RustyLH

      Your boyfriend can control his actions, but that he cannot control what he is attracted to. If you think that he can only find you visually appealing, you are wrong. The real question is, why do you NEED that? I think it has to do with your fear he will leave you for another woman. Well, he has those fears also. Men can try to control women also, but they get called out for doing so. Have you ever had a jealous ex-boyfriend who tried to control what you wore, who you were friends with, where you went, what you did, who you talked to, got mad if you talked to another man?

      The fear those men had is the same fear you have. You fear losing him to another woman. If you beat him verbally for being a normal man, he just might find a woman who is more appealing, not just in looks but also in how she makes him feel. In face, she may not be as good looking, but make him feel better to be around.

      1. 215.1.1
        SaraT

        I guess I should explain in more detail what I mean by hope he’s not attracted to other women, as I know that noone can help thinking someone is good looking, but when I see a good looking guy I don’t get turned on and I don’t look twice at him, my love for my guy blocks me feeling sexual or emotional feelings for anyone one else, and that is actually what psychologists say happens to all of us when were in love so I expect it would be the same for him, and think it is. I don’t think it’s right for a guy in a relationship to hav his actions, it should feel like something he just naturally stops doing without his girl telling him to because he’s so in love with her that no one else compares, but if  he feels he can’t help but always look at good looking girls then he can’t truly be happy in his relationship or that he is
        not a guy that genuinely wants to comit. 

        1. Jeremy

          SaraT, I understand that this is how you feel, but it is not how most men feel.  Being in love with one woman does NOT block attraction to other women.  Incidentally, this is also not what psychologists and physiologists say. 
          There are 3 neurochemicals that mediate different forms of “love”.  There is dopamine, which produces the “in love” feeling which lasts 6 months -2 years into relationships, then fades.  For some people, this dopamine spike is so addictive that it blocks rational thought.  However, it is more of an addiction than a long-term emotion.  Then there is testosterone, which mediates “lust”.  This is the feeling of attraction/horny-ness that you get when you look at an attractive person.  Men have 17X the testosterone levels that women do.  They are going to be attracted to other people no matter what.  This doesn’t mean that they will act on the attraction, but that it will be present no matter what, until testosterone levels drop (in mid-to late life).  Finally there is oxytocin, which is responsible for feelings of bonding.  Women get this when they have conversations, touch their friends/children, and during uterine contraction (delivery and orgasm).  Men only get it during orgasm (lots of implications to this, for another thread).
           
          So to specifically address your comment, SaraT, you are operating under a false assumption when you say that it is normal for someone in love to not be attracted to other people, and that looking at other women indicates lack of commitment.  In fact, it simply indicates a normally-functioning system.  Now, if he acted upon those impulses it would be something else entirely.

  6. 216
    E.

    I really really does appreciate Evan honnesty as a man  in this article . Thank you so much for putting this out.  

  7. 217
    SaraT

    not how ‘Most Men’ feel, right? that is what you said and that is my point there. I know by ‘most men’ it would mean the men that that have enjoyed strip clubs, still watch porn, have been exposed to seeing women as sexual objects when growing up (from their fathers and friends for e.g). None of these things apply to my boyfriend. And wow so your saying that men only ‘bond’ with women when they orgasm? you do realise that bonding is a from of love and not from just sexual attraction and pleasure. How can it be possible that men only get it during orgasm? surely if that were the case then all men in relationships would leave their girlfriends straight after sex and wouldn’t show any interest in anything else in the relationship. My boyfriends loves cuddling and kissing more than sex sometimes and it is so clear that he loves the conversations we have and he loves my company and he tells me everyday how much he loves me, that is bond, that’s not from orgasms! I have never heard such rubbish in my life. You cannot just throw statements like that out on the internet when it could affect people’s relationships. 
    Also I was discussing this with my older sister who has a lot of experience with different men and she said that the attraction for other women only lasts for a split second, they just look and forget about it afterwards, its just very short and is nothing compared to their attraction with the person they are in love with. What do you think about that?  

    1. 217.1
      Jeremy

      “I know by ‘most men’ it would mean the men that that have enjoyed strip clubs, still watch porn, have been exposed to seeing women as sexual objects when growing up (from their fathers and friends for e.g). None of these things apply to my boyfriend”
      No, by “most men” I mean most heterosexual men who are sexually attracted to women.  Men do not need to see women as “sex objects” to be attracted to them physically, and physical attraction is natural (again, testosterone), and more important in attraction to most men than to most women.
       
      “What I am saying doesn’t happen to all men and I know doesn’t happen to my guy is that they are not ‘sexually’ aroused by other women in a way that makes them fantasize about sex or start falling in love when they are already in love with their woman.”



      Being aroused to fantasize about having sex with someone (testosterone) is common, and happens to just about all men, regardless of whether they are in love with someone else.  Falling in love with someone (dopamine), and feeling bonded to someone (oxytocin) are COMPLETELY unrelated to pure sexual attraction and fantasy (testosterone) for most men.  Again, the mistake you are making here is confusing the 2 things, and believing that because YOU are unable to separate these emotions, that men are unable to separate them.  In fact, men often separate them naturally.  This does not make men “bad”.  It makes them different from you.
       
      “And wow so your saying that men only ‘bond’ with women when they orgasm? you do realise that bonding is a from of love and not from just sexual attraction and pleasure.”


      Actually, SaraT, I do realize that bonding is a form of love.  Specifically, OXYTOCIN.  It is not the same as sexual attraction (TESTOSTERONE).  That was the point of my post, above.  Men can easily be attracted to (testosterone) an attractive woman walking by, while still feeling dopamine, testosterone, and oxytocin for their girlfriend.  Many women don’t understand this, because their testosterone levels are so much lower than most men’s.
       
      “My boyfriends loves cuddling and kissing more than sex sometimes and it is so clear that he loves the conversations we have and he loves my company and he tells me everyday how much he loves me, that is bond, that’s not from orgasms!”
       
      Many men enjoy these things.  Men may enjoy a purely intellectual conversation with a woman simply for curiosity/stimulation.  Or they may engage her in conversation because they are attracted to her and hope to woo her (testosterone).  Or they may enjoy a conversation with her because they are “in love” with her (dopamine) and hang on every word she says (until the dopamine wears off). 
       
      But in longer-term relationships they enjoy conversation, kissing, and cuddling because they feel  bonded to their woman (oxytocin).  But the oxytocin did not come from the conversation and cuddling – rather it came from the sexual bond in the relationship.  Once he feels bonded to her, he will be much more likely to enjoy cuddling, kissing, and conversations with her – the things SHE needs to feel bonded.
      But imagine if the woman told the man that she did not want to have sex anymore, and he has gone for weeks without sex.  Do you still think he will find cuddling, kissing, and talking with her enjoyable?  The cuddling and kissing will be pure torture, and the conversation will seem inane – because he does not feel bonded, and does not naturally bond by cuddling and conversation.
       
      SaraT, I obviously don’t know you or your boyfriend.  It is possible that he is totally unlike other men on the planet.  It isn’t likely, but it is possible.  The mistake that I think you are making is in assuming that men are like women, and that your boyfriend is like you.  Men, generally, are NOT like women.  We are attracted differently, to different things, and often have different motivations.  One of the reasons for this website is for men and women to discuss ideas and find out what makes each other tick.  My bottom line to you is that if you feel you have a good relationship, do not be concerned that he is looking (fleetingly) at other women, or even that he may harbor fantasies (as long as he doesn’t act on them).  That behavior is normal, regardless of how it might make you feel due to your misconception of thinking that his modes of attraction are similar to yours.

  8. 218
    SaraT

    Jeremy just want to remind you of what exactly I mean when I refer to ‘attracted to someone else’ I don’t mean just find someone else good looking, that is normal and harmless. What I am saying doesn’t happen to all men and I know doesn’t happen to my guy is that they are not ‘sexually’ aroused by other women in a way that makes them fantasize about sex or start falling in love when they are already in love with their woman. The bond that is formed between partners during getting to know eachother, touching eachother and having sex (orgasm) stops us from seeing anyone else in a romantic way. A study on this was done recently that you can find on this link- http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2012/11/study-oxytocin-the-love-hormone-makes-men-in-relationships-want-to-stay-away-from-other-women/265314/ 
    I think we might have confused eachother with the only concept of ‘attraction’. 
    Thanks 

  9. 219
    J

    Straight to the point, I agree with this article.  Why are women blind to men primal instincts? Actually all human instincts? We love to look. Period. Women are constantly looking at other women, commenting on their bodies, admitting to female celebrity crushes, and know when a women is beautiful and they are straight. So why be upset with a man, who is by nature attracted to them?  I feel for men, they are punished for so much, women are used in ads to get their attention, bit god forbid they actually enjoy it.  A good man will not cheat, but I can promise, if his partner confines him, and constantly bagger him, he will feel the need to release because he doesnt get the respect he seeks from his partner.

  10. 220
    Jenn

    Watching porn and actively fantasizing about other women IS “taking action on his desires”. Just because he’s not PHYSICALLY cheating does not mean he’s not committing adultery in his heart. After all, where does the fantasy, and for some men the resulting impulse to cheat, come from? Guys are not being led around by their dicks against their will. They are allowing themselves to fantasize and masturbate to porn when they could be saving all of their sexual energy to be directed toward their wives. What would the world be like if this was the case? I imagine there would be a heck of a lot more happy marriages if people would simply try harder to resist the temptation to go outside their marriage for sexual fulfillment (and yes, I’m including masturbating to porn in that). I understand that when a guy is out on the street, a subconscious, momentary reaction to the sight of a beautiful woman is to be expected. But men were not born without brains. They can control their thoughts AND their actions if they really want to.

    1. 220.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Wrong. Flat out wrong. You cannot be married and be the thought police. You can ONLY judge a man based on how he treats you, not on what he thinks. If you decide that you have the right to play thought police, you will find that very few men want to stick around for that rodeo. A man is not cheating by looking at women, looking at pornographic videos, or being friendly to an attractive woman. He’s cheating when he’s acting on his basest impulses to DO something illicit – asking for a woman’s number, kissing a stranger, going on Craigslist casual encounters. Until you get your definitions right, you’re going to miss out on a lot of good, normal men who have eyes, brains, and libidos that don’t match your fantasy of what a man “should” think.

      If you don’t like the reality-based advice espoused on this blog, you might prefer to go to your local clergy or a religious based dating site, where you will find more like-minded people. But I’m pretty sick of being told on my own blog that something normal is, in fact, aberrant.

      1. 220.1.1
        Nicole

        Re-read your article. Now imagine, that instead of your sexist diatribe about what men are, what men do, and in what ways they’re entitled to disrespect women simply because they’re men, pretend you’re rewriting it so that every reference to a man is a refers to a woman instead. As in:

        A woman can watch porn, fantasize about other men, and still be a great wife and mother. 

        A woman can go to bachelorette parties, strip clubs, and still be a good a wife and mother.

        Now, replace “women” or “woman” with your wife’s name.

        Mrs. Katz gets turned on by watching other men, clothed or naked.

        Are you just as convinced of the validity of those revised assertions?
        Or did your blood pressure just rise? 

        1. Jeremy

          Sexist diatribe?  Not sure where you are coming from with that comment. The answer to all of your gender-reversed questions is a resounding YES.  All of those things are ok…obviously.  If they were not ok, I would agree with your assessment of sexism.

    2. 220.2
      Jeremy

      What would the world be like if men had to channel all their sexual energy toward their wives?  I may shock you by saying that this would lead to some very unhappy men, and by extension, very unhappy women.

      When my wife was breastfeeding our children, it would occasionally happen that the baby would suck briefly and then stop.  My wife would feel a sensation of acute frustration and mild pain, and would have to go and pump to relieve herself.  When this would happen she would comment that now she knows how men feel when they feel excited and need to feel release.  Her own sexual cycle of desire is nothing like the very linear stimulation (visual/tactile)-excitation-buildup-need for release that happens in men.  The closest she could come to understanding it was the similar cycle in her breastfeeding, and it gave her insight into the differences between the sexes.  

      Men become aroused fairly easily by visual stimulation.  When we feel aroused it begins a cycle with the need for release.  We are not animals, we can control ourselves, and so we do not flirt with other women when we are in a relationship, nor do we have affairs (or, at least, good men do not).  But if we do have needs that must be satisfied, and if our partner is not available or does not have the desire, we will do whatever we feel necessary to relieve ourselves (just as my wife felt the need to pump).  This is not cheating – there is nobody else involved.

      If any person, man or woman, wants to be the sole outlet for their partner’s sexual needs, then it is only fair that they commit to making themselves available whenever their partner feels arousal – whenever and however often that might be.  I have yet to meet any person, man or woman, who can commit to this, simply because it is not always possible.  imagine a marriage where every time a man feels turned on, the woman must have sex with him then and there (or vice versa)  – do you really think that would lead to a happy marriage?  Or to a very badgered and resentful wife?  Or do you believe that the lower desire spouse would not need to commit to satisfying the higher desire spouse, and that higher desire spouse should just suffer?

      To me it seems pretty obvious that there needs to be an outlet for our sexual needs whenever our spouses can not satisfy them – without illicit affairs with other human beings.  If we need visual stimulation to help with that (for example, via pornography, used more by men), or if we need mental/emotional stimulation (for example, romance novels – used more by women), how is that anyone’s business but our own? 

       

  11. 221
    Terry

    My husband is one who ogles instead of just looking at every pretty woman in sight.  He cannot stop looking at her until she is out of his sight.   When I tell him I think this is disrespectful to me he lies about it and tells me I don’t know what he was looking at, even though the woman was the only one there.  He once asked me to grab a bottle of juice in a grocery store for him, so he could look at a woman while I did it, and when I turned around quickly and saw him, he denied it.  He also tells me I’m insecure.  I am not insecure, and I get plenty of looks from men myself, which I also think is disrespectful if they are with another woman.  My husband and I were in a bar with my brother and 2 sons (who are all single btw) once, when my youngest son, who is mentally challenged, was ogling a woman at the pool table.  My brother and older son said they need to talk to my youngest son about not doing that because it’s disrespectful to the woman and can get you into trouble.  My husband sat there ogling the same woman and didn’t hear a word my brother or son said.  I, too, like to look at men, but out of respect for my husband, I don’t do it.  He admittedly doesn’t like it either.  Does that make him insecure?  I once told him that I don’t think it’s a big deal to look at others when we’re not with each other, as long as we don’t act on it, and he had a fit.  He told me, “WE should never do that because it’s wrong”, yet he meant, “ME” instead of “WE”.   Then, he turned right around, the first time he was caught, and told me he didn’t think there was anything wrong with looking at other women, and he continued to do it, in front of me, behind my back, and any other way he can.   

  12. 222
    chris weir

    Men objectify women but not as much as women objectify themselves. If you dress in parsley you will be treated like meat. I don’t think men objectify women who dress non sexual as anything other than what is presented. if a man wears no shirt and a collared bow tie, you can bet yourself he will get cat calls because its the door he opened. Men will always look as long as women always show. This is natural. Cause and affect. If man loses interest in the female form he will not look, if women stop showing their stuff he will not look or if you complain enough he will try to hide the fact that he’s looking.  There is however the belief that if a man simply refrains from looking that the goal is achieved. however, if the man doesn’t look but still wants to, does it really accomplish anything? I have learned to suppress impulses by teaching myself that I am not really missing anything by not giving a second glance. I think that was the real trick. am I cured? of course not, its natural to desire to see the female shape, but by telling myself that just another half naked girl is no more than what I have seen before and probably won’t be better than the last one, gives me some degree of peace. My wife helped me by not getting on my case all the time and creating the FOBIDDEN FRUIT craze.  I will say porn and strip clubs in my opinion just throw gasoline on an already lit flame.  I don’t think porn and such is healthy, argue which ever bias you want but it does open another can of worms in a variety of ways.  If I go to a strip club I am helping women objectify themselves. do I desire sex with these women? no, can I go to a strip club and not become a mad rapist? yes, but what is the purpose of going? obviously we hear things like people have a negative view of nudity blah blah blah, but would you want your wife stripping? your daughter? your mother? of course not, we look down on this behavior as base class. opening your legs to show your orifices is not art. If you think so, let your bride do it at her wedding to add to the esthetics………..and yes all the men would look.  

  13. 223
    RustyLH

    A woman can watch porn, fantasize about other men, and still be a great wife and mother.  Yes, and many do.
     
    A woman can go to bachelorette parties, strip clubs, and still be a good a wife and mother.  Yes, and many do.
     
    I am willing to bet that a woman who watches porn will be much better in bed, and won’t require nearly as much “putting in work,” to get her in the mood.  Hey, I love foreplay.  I don’t mind stoking the fire, but WOW is it nice for her to sometimes have the fire already stoked.  Some women, you have to do much more than stoke the fire.  You’ve got to cut the tree down, chop it into firewood, stack it, let it dry, dig the metal out of the earth, melt it down, pour it into a form that you created with the clay you also dug out of the earth, then beat it while it is glowing hot, create rivets, work the metal, and now you have a put belly stove to put the firewood.  Now you have to set about rubbing creating a spark by hand to get the wood smoldering, then lightly blow on it to get it to light.
    That can be fun once in a great while, but everyday?  Likely this is the kind of woman you’ll be lucky to get sex from once a week, or once a month.  Even then she will be thinking about the bill she forgot to mail, or the whether she has everything to make the kid’s lunch for school the next day, etc….
    Having to move heaven and earth to get a woman in the mood all the time isn’t fun, and if a man has to do this, he will likely be more open to finding sex on the side.  I myself would just leave her and find somebody who has a sexy mind.
     

    1. 223.1
      Nicole

      The point I was trying to make is that in many marriages, porn, strip clubs, and leering at other people is deemed acceptable for the husbands, but not for the wives.  

      These behaviors are seen  as “normal” for men, with many men encouraging each other in them. Just take a look at this thread.

      It’s laughable because no one encourages married women to look at real people or digital ones. No one rationalizes that it’s fine for women to do these things, as long as they aren’t acting on their arousal. Society does not give women vague justifications like “looking is genetic” or “that’s just how women are, because they are visual”. 

      I suspect that many men, the author included, would have a coronary if their wives behaved the way many husbands do.
       

      1. 223.1.1
        Jeremy

        Nicole, did you ever read 50 shades of grey?  One of the best selling books of all time, bought almost exclusively by women (“Mommy porn”).  As far as I know, neither society nor most husbands had a problem with that, in spite of the fact that the male protagonist was an impossibly handsome, rich, and sexy character that no real man could match.  Almost, dare I say it, the female version of the ultimate pornstar…

        1. Danaris

          Jeremy,
          I agree with you about 50 Shades of Grey.  In fact, lots of today’s modern romance novels — a genre completely geared to women —  really are soft porn — with one HUGE difference versus porn that men typically consume.    The female version is a combination of sex AND love.  There is a storyline and one the matters to women.  Having said that, I still agree that 50 Shades of Grey and other romance/erotica can set up unrealistic expectations — the most damaging being that when men have sex with women, that often means they love/care about them.  When I was dating and realized that I had many expectations of men that were driven by romance novels, I stopped reading them altogether.  And, to this day, I don’t read romance novels anymore.   I realize that I’m probably not typical in that regard and I certainly don’t expect the men in my life to stop looking at porn because I stopped reading romance novels.  
           

      2. 223.1.2
        RustyLH

        Niicole, please drop the woe is me I’m a woman act?  I’m really getting sick of women always trying to claim to “I’m a victim” moral high ground by using tired old cliches that aren’t even true.
         
        Men are encouraged to look at porn and go to strip clubs?  Really?  Because I can dig up many articles talking about how many divorces such behavior causes.  Looking at porn while at work will get your fired while reading some gossip article on US magazine will not, assuming you are allowed to read “clean” material while at work.
         
        As for women doing it, well just look at how strip clubs are portrayed in movies.  If it is women at a strip club watching male dancers, it is a wild fun party night where the women get wild and let their hair down.  The club is brightly lit and it’s a party with loads of laughing and good times.
         
        If it is men at a strip club, it is often portrayed as more seedy.  I’ve even seen some movies unrealistically show a group of men literally pawing the woman who is on stage.   At a minimum, that would get you kicked out, at worse a lump on the head or a trip to the local jail.
         
        Churches speak out against doing either but of course direct most of this at men.
         
        In the military this stuff is, at a minimum, highly discouraged on an official level.  Having pornographic material on board a U.S. Navy ship is no longer allowed.  If you have it you better keep it on the down-low.
        As to women being scorned for watching porn?
        Oprah has no problem with it.  http://www.oprah.com/relationships/Do-Women-Watch-Porn?_escaped_fragment_=#!
        Cosmo has no problem with it.  http://www.cosmopolitan.com/celebrity/news/how-you-watch-porn-survey
        And more  
        http://www.alternet.org/sex-amp-relationships/guess-what-many-ladies-love-porn-10-interesting-facts-about-womens-porn-habits
        http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/18/women-and-porn-survey-ann-summers-sex_n_4297183.html
         

  14. 224
    Nicole

    Rusty, I’m sensing that you’ve often gotten sick of women in your lifetime. Especially by the ones who need you to move heaven and earth just so they can become aroused.

    Maybe it’s not them. Maybe it’s you.

    If your lady wants sex infrequently, and even during sex is thinking about paying bills and making the kids lunches, why not help her with these activities on occasion? Best foreplay ever!

    I hope this helps,  so you don’t have to work so hard to get her revved up. Poor guy, you have my sympathy.  

    1. 224.1
      RustyLH

      Read the reply below.  This snarky reply by you doesn’t phase me because it has no basis in reality…not my reality.  I’ve just read too much where this is the number one complaint by women…that the man often doesn’t take the time to get her aroused.  I’ve been with some women that would make that complaint but I’ve also been with women that wouldn’t make that complaint.  In short, the latter women were already aroused when we got in bed and seemed to understand that sex on a near daily basis was not going to involve long and drawn out foreplay on most occasions.  Instead of resenting that, they accepted that having to get up early for work every day necessitated a lot of quickies throughout the week.  They also knew that if they were in the mood for more, they had to plan for it and make sure we headed to bed much earlier.  Not a problem for me.  More sex is more sex.  The great thing is that their more mature, more comfortable,less selfish attitude about sex seemed to allow them to receive far more pleasure far more often.
       
      My first wife and I read an article that said that most married couples reported an average of 67 sexual encounters per month.  I think that has gone up, but at the time, we laughed really hard, and she said if there were very many like us, and that was the average, some people were not getting much sex at all.  I think she was right on the money.
       
      The truth is that I love a lot of foreplay and actually think is is fun to tease her throughout the day, stoking the fire and keeping it on a low boil, but that isn’t always possible.  Work, and other events do interfere with that so it is vital that a woman learn to become the master of her own sexual mind.
       
       
      Just like men can and must learn form women when it comes to sex, women can and must learn from men…if she wants a great sex life.

      1. 224.1.1
        Huh?

        That was supposed to say 6-7 encounters a month, not 67 right? Lol

  15. 225
    Nicole

    Jeremy, I have not read 50 Shades. I hear it reads like it was written overnight. I avoid “romance novels” as well. 

    I don’t use porn or “Mommy porn” in any form, but I am not here to argue  I’m pointing out the double standard within many marriages, that says husbands are entitled to gawk and masterbate, but when wives do it, is is wrong or abnormal.

    Your comparison of breastfeeding and masturbating leaves out one thing.
    When a woman pumps and dumps, she is not engaging in sexual fantasy and sexual activity without you. 

    Are you honest with your wife about your solo habits, or do you keep them from her because you know they will upset her? Would it upset you if her porn consumption and masturbation left her uninterested in sex with you?

    1. 225.1
      RustyLH

      In your “not arguing,” you argued and completely ignored many valid points made.  here, let me show you again.
       
      “I’m pointing out the double standard within many marriages, that says husbands are entitled to gawk and masterbate, but when wives do it, is is wrong or abnormal.”

      The double standard is that most men would find it hot if his wife did that, but most women freak out and throw a hissy fit if the man does it.


      “Your comparison of breastfeeding and masturbating leaves out one thing.
      When a woman pumps and dumps, she is not engaging in sexual fantasy and sexual activity without you.”

      You leave out that valid point that he made.  He never said it was the same, he said that one aspect was the same, and that was a sense of relief, of well being, and I’ll add that if you aren’t having sex with him about 21 times per month, he has a right to do so for his own health.

      For example, men who reported 21 or more ejaculations per month in their 40s had a 32% lower risk of prostate cancer later in life compared with those who reported between four and seven ejaculations per month. Men who reported more than 21 monthly ejaculations in the previous year had a 51% lower risk of prostate cancer.
      Overall, an average of 21 or more ejaculations a month during a man’s lifetime decreased the risk of prostate cancer later in life by 33%. And each increase of three ejaculations per week during a man’s lifetime was associated with a 15% reduction in prostate cancer risk.
      http://www.webmd.com/prostate-cancer/news/20040406/frequent-ejaculation-prostate

       
      If you want to use religious moral grounds, then you better be prepared to have those religious grounds thrown right back at oyu because the Bible is quite clear that you do not own your body, your husband does, and you own his.  It says quite clearly not to deny each other sex, for to do so is to make the other person vulnerable to temptation.  So if he is being frequently rejected, or flat out has learned not to even bother trying if you aren’t showing clear signs of interest, then you share the blame, if using religious moral grounds.
       
      Are you honest with your wife about your solo habits, or do you keep them from her because you know they will upset her?
      That would depend on if she is denying sex on a regular basis.  Also, it would depend on what she is like in bed.  Lights always off, same position every time, etc.?  If that is the case, and she would freak out over the use of porn, most men would likely keep it hidden.  If she is denying sex she has no moral reason religious or otherwise to get upset, but most men would rather not deal with the drama.
       
      “Would it upset you if her porn consumption and masturbation left her uninterested in sex with you?”
       
      That is the only legitimate complaint because religious grounds or not, he has no more right to deny her than she does him.  If he is neglecting her, the problem needs resolved.
      What would you say if this were happening to you, and you both sat down and had a grown up, calm discussion about the problem and he admitted that he would love to have more sex but that you made him feel guilty because the majority of times, especially weeknights, he mostly wanted quickies.  In other words, by the time you both get to bed, it is fairly late and you just don’t have an hour or two every night for a long build up without it starting to cause sleep deprivation problems?
       
      Do you think you could take charge of your own sexual fulfillment by finding ways to reduce the need for a lot of foreplay on most nights?  i do know that this is a big problem for many people.  They are already stressed for time and don’t get enough sleep as it it.  Most men want a lot of sex, and don’t mind a lot of foreplay when time permits, but the reality is most nights don’t allow it for most people.
       
      Honestly, what would you do?  I’m curious.   Not looking for gory details, just wanting to know if you would take charge of your own sexual fulfillment or put it on him and or complain that it isn’t fair that he receive pleasure but you remain unfulfilled most nights?
       
       
      Let me tell you about my first wife.  Holy crap did we have a lot of sex.  She was the one that was 12 years younger.  She NEVER denied me sex.  Not once.  Occasionally I would wake up in the mood, during the middle of the night.  I would wake her up by fooling around with her and we would have a quickie, then go back to sleep cuddling.  One night, she was in a good position so I got in the position and went through the motions but did not enter her until she woke up, smiled at me and wrapped her arms and legs around me.  Afterward, I did wonder if I was pushing the boundaries, and asked her about it.  She looked at me and smiled and said, “That is exactly what I want, and don’t you dare stop being spontaneous like that.”  She even brought up an example where I had basically gave her a smirk as she was getting ready to go to work, tossed her on the bed and had my way with her.  Almost made her late for work.  She said that she kept smiling at work all day.  Coworkers kept asking her why she was smiling and quickly guessed…and were jealous.  In short she was getting exactly what she wanted and loved it.  I will admit that one of my biggest regrets in life is messing up that marriage.  The point is that she never once made me feel guilty about sex.  She was never shy about letting me know what she wanted.  She also seemed to totally understand that a healthy sex life in our busy world was going to require a lot more quickies than long drawn out encounters.  In short, she totally embraced that.  As a result, she had what I refer to as a sexy mind.  It didn’t take an act of congress to get her in the mood.  She didn’t worry about other things while we were having sex.
       
      What’s up with that anyway?  How the heck are you going to lay there ad worry about a bill that needs to be paid the next day?  Leave the next day’s chores for the next day.  How about respecting your husband and give him your attention for the short period of time sex requires, even in a longer encounter. 
       
      I’m done with this.  I have had great sexual relationships and know what it requires to have them and I will say that the #1 requirement is a woman with a sexy mind.  A woman who wants a rich and diverse sex life and is always has that idea on a simmer in the back of her mind so that it doesn’t take an hour for her to feel fulfilled.  You should be getting your mind ready, on your own, long before you even step into the bedroom.

  16. 226
    Sara

    I blame society. Its pushed women to be competitive. It built a multi billion dollar industry (porn) that’s destroyed thousand of marriages. Even if the case is that a husband only watches porn, how long until that’s not enough? dont you think that watching other women gives him an intense curiosity and to look at women as sexual  objects even when clothed. what about that Ashley Maddison website that gives the right to men and women the option to be unfaithful, and of course it’s more men than women. I blame society for pushing women to want to be desirable. Women feel like they are undesirable, it doesnt help when your husband stares at a womans ass while you try to talk  to them.  Ive Heard things like “men have to masturbate for health”.. Just have  more sex with your wife. i understand we have all been corrupted by a world that says that sex sells. But I dont agree that it is okay. It’s not okay. You have a choice.  Find  a man that will look into your eyes even after 30 40 or 50 years of marriage. NOT fairy tale b.s but respect for you. We are women, and we are beautiful, we are not sex objects to stare at and imagine naked. We’ve evolved past the cavemen stage into intelligent creatures.

    1. 226.1
      RustyLH

      “Ive Heard things like “men have to masturbate for health”.. Just have  more sex with your wife.”
       
      http://www.webmd.com/prostate-cancer/news/20040406/frequent-ejaculation-prostate
       
      http://www.webmd.com/sex-relationships/guide/sex-and-health
       
      I wonder how women might feel if the medical community came out and said that there were health benefits for women if they had sex every day, but they acted as if that wasn’t true, and denied her sex on a frequent basis.  You know what I think would happen in that case?  If a lot of men did that, we would be accused of not loving our wives, and not caring about their health.  I think there is more than enough precedent to justify that belief.
       
      But since it is more the man that gets a health benefit, and it is women that normally are the ones to withhold, it’s not a news story.  If the shoe were on the other foot, I am sure it would be major news, and Oprah, The View, etc… would all do annual shows on the topic.
       
      Of course the truth is that women do also receive health benefits and I wouldn’t be surprised if modern medicine finds even more benefits in the future.  But since women are not usually the ones being denied, or not perceived as being denied, it isn’t a story.
       
      But now that you know the truth…be honest…how often do you think you would have sex with your husband, or serious boyfriend in the future?  I think it is fair to say that your answer would show an indication of how much you do or do not are about him.
       
      I wonder why it has to be an issue.  Even bad sex is still better than no sex…usually.  If he sucks, teach him.  Just be gentle.  Men have fragile egos just as women do.  But at the same time, most men will get over it and will want to please their wife.  Most men.  Sorry if he is the rare one who does not care.

    2. 226.2
      Jeremy

         I once saw an article online that I found very interesting.  It was discussing the James Bond movies, and how it was unfair that the women in the Bond movies were scantily-clad while the man was always wearing a tuxedo – this was taken to be an example of sexism that women should be viewed as naked sex objects while men are fully clothed.  The interesting response to this (that really really made me think) was that the image of Sean Connery in a tuxedo with a gun was JUST AS hypersexualized an image from a female perspective as the scantily-clad woman was from a male perspective.  It all boils down to what each sex finds attractive. 
      Men are naturally drawn to the imagery of the female form.  Women (generally speaking) are more drawn to images of power and high value (attractive man, well-dressed, powerful, surrounded by other women).  They did an experiment where they photoshopped the same image of Sean Connery to the body of a (fit) man wearing a speedo, and asked women whether they found the image arousing – most found it humerous.  But most did find the image of him in a tuxedo with a gun, next to an attractive woman, arousing.
       
      My earlier point about 50 Shades of Grey was that millions of women find this book arousing.  It is sexual fantasy geared to WOMEN.  I read the book – didn’t do anything for me…..probably for the same reason most pornography doesn’t do much for women – it is not geared to my type of fantasy.  But for those women who loved the book, who got turned on by it – power to you.  As long as it didn’t affect your marriage by your thinking that your husband had to be like the protagonist of the book.  BTW, how many women, do you think, ended their marriages because their husbands were not like Christian Grey?  How many men, do you think, end their marriages because their wives are not pornstars?  I have no concrete data, but I would guess that the numbers are similarly low.  We are all intelligent people.  Only few have trouble separating fantasy from reality.
      Look, men and women are different.  We are attracted to different things.  I am hearing some of the women on this site – they wish they lived in a world where men were not drawn physically to women.  Or, rather, that once men choose one particular woman, all their latent attraction to the female physical form would be centered on her alone and all other women would become invisible to him.  This is not reality.  We control ourselves and do not act on our attractions/fantasies, but we still have them. 
      Hey, I wish I lived in a world where women got turned on, sexually, as easily as men.  Wouldn’t that be great?  Wouldn’t it be great not to have to hear about the necessity for day-long preparation of foreplay just so that we could have mutually-enjoyable sex later?  I think so.  But that is not the world we live in – that is not the reality of the majority of the female population.  And so, if I am to have a relationship with a woman, I must understand that her needs and wants are different than my own, and make allowances for that.  Women need to do the same.
       
      And, Sara, I agree with you that a man should look his wife in the eye even after 30, 40, or 50 years of marriage.  He should also stare at her chest.  I am not being facetious – he should be attracted to his wife, as she should hopefully be attracted to him (and stare at his other parts in addition to his eyes).  I am not saying it is ok to lose attraction to ones spouse, to cheat on one’s spouse, or to let fantasy affect one’s reality.  But I am saying that occasional sexual fantasy, when one is alone, is totally fine and normal as long as it does not negatively affect reality.  And this is true for both men and women.

  17. 227
    Nicole

    I meant to write that I’m not here to argue about porn.

  18. 228
    Anna

    Like a woman i am very visual. I do like naked hunks, turns me on. 

  19. 229
    chel

    @ Evan
    I believe a man can be a good man whilst looking at porn & other women, but what about showing a little consideration for how it might make a woman FEEL. If viewing porn, whilst in a relationship, you discover that your gf or wife is hurt by this, that it makes her feel insecure & upset, then surely as a loving good man you can decide not to do it? Just like you can decide not to look at other women too. There’s this thing… called willpower I think.

    1. 229.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      You can call it willpower. But if I were the man who (foolishly) married the woman who views occasional pornography use as threatening, I would more likely be forced to lie about it. Because masturbation, in and of itself, is somewhere between benign and healthy. It’s certainly not bad. And if he wants to get off when you’re tired/not in the mood/out of town, you’re telling him, he CAN’T? That’s unfair, unrealistic, and likely to backfire on you.

  20. 230
    Mesay

    I appreciate this article. Thanks for sharing. I am a kind of man who only conceives sex with the woman I love.  I can’t get my real sexual arousal for a woman I don’t love though she is prettier than the woman I love.

  21. 231
    kmt

    Thank you for your insight! I’ve been spending time with a guy for a year + who very openly and honestly shares pics and thoughts of women he thinks are stimulating. He also in-a-sense preps me for the inevitable fall – “I can’t control it”, “I have this think in my limbic brain” etc.

    My – oft-unspoken – perspective is that its a bunch of bullshit and that the key is not to let anything control your actions. I have told him that I don’t care what he does with his “uncontrollable urges” but that I will have a decision to make based on how he acts on them. Or that he doesn’t respect me and find me hot.

    Our sex life is great BTW.

    The other day he told me I looked pretty and I was so touched that I let out a pause. Hours later he said he wanted to tell me something and he told me that at that moment he realized that he doesn’t tell me things like that enough, that he often talks about other women. But that they are abstract and that I am real. 

    I get that. But then there is this — he was on tour in Europe recently and had already kind-of set me up for him slagin a punk gal or something. OK just tell me if you do ok? OK.

    At some point, he couldn’t find his hotel (5am Madrid – 9pm day before my time) so I try to help him back to the hotel. He drops off the map for 4 hours and then pings me “I survived!”. OK – glad you survived but I was worried. Worried!

    On his return home we spent hours sharing stories about my weeks and his. Then the build-ip started “Oh my god, the whores around our hotel in Madrid were crazy! And everyone – everyone – was taking time with them. The produce guy, the taxi driver, the waiter in my morning cafe.”  ” Everyone in Madrid buys sex – the whores (damn them) are everywhere! Out of control!” i have no control… I don’t have any choices….

    I said I thought he was generalizing about the frequency of paid liaisons in Madrid and then he proudly told me that he found his way back to his hotel by paying the hooker in the pink shoes for a strip and then asking her for help finding his hotel. During the 4 hours that he dropped off after frantically testing me for help.

    His build-up leads me to feel that he is not being entirely truthful about the liase but on the other hand I am very grateful that he didn’t feel the need to hide anything from me.. “I picked up a hooker and paid her 15 bucks to strip for me and then asked her to get me to my hotel.”

    The thing is, I was emotionally charred when he told me. Love the openness; don’t always love what is disclosed.

    I appreciate what others have shared here and your perspectives are helping me form the place that is best for me. Although I really love how open my lover and I are, part of me wants to suggest that we do the old “is it true; is it necessary; is it kind” test on what we share.

     

    1. 231.1
      Jeremy

      KMT, this guy sounds totally immature.  This situation was NOT what I was referring to when I wrote that it is normal for men to look.  Discretely glancing is one thing.  Looking at pictures privately online while alone is one thing.  But constantly throwing verbal diarrhea around to your significant other to make them jealous is un-acceptable.  I don’t think you need to put up with this type of behaviour.  It is not normal or mature, IMHO.

  22. 232
    elle

     
    Men are going to look.  What do they get out of it?  A momentary sexual thrill and a deposit to the spank bank.  The issue isn’t rather it’s natural, unnatural, whatever.  The issue is don’t ever look in a disrespectful way. 
     
    A glance is one thing, but double takes, continuous staring, looking and commenting as you would when out with your buddies while your woman is with you or fading out of a conversation with her to look at a hot piece are all extremely disrespectful behaviors that, I’m sorry guys, you SHOULD be able to control.  I mean, a grown man should be able to at least control himself to that degree. 
     
    The day my husband decided he was going to drink a woman in with his eyes as she walked toward us and then turn his whole body around to watch her walk away, I had to leave him where he sat.  Was he embarrassed that I got up and walked out on him?  No more embarrassed and humiliated than I was.  A glance at an attractive person is understandable and perfectly natural.  Leering and eyef*cking IS NOT and should never be tolerated.  A wise woman knows the difference.  By the way, my husband hasn’t disrespected me in that way since.
     

  23. 233
    Dayna

    Total bullshit. Married men have no business in strip clubs or watching porn if they are in love and take pride in themselves as a good man. Who ever decided that just providing for your family and taking care of the household makes a you a good man? That’s just a portion of a relationship. The hard part is being a man a woman can be proud of and respect as a man of high standards and that takes pride in himself for doing so.

    1. 233.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Actually, Dayna, the bullshit is suggesting that married men who occasionally consume porn are somehow “bad.” If you’re so insecure that you think that a man should be attracted to you (and only you) for the rest of your life, then you’re going to have a rough road ahead of you. Porn addiction is unhealthy, but then again, so is addiction to alcohol and I don’t think we want to bring back prohibition.

      Look at these numbers. Are you going to say – with a straight face – that ALL of these men are unworthy or respect and are therefore bad husbands? I sure won’t.

      http://www.techaddiction.ca/files/porn-addiction-statistics.jpg

  24. 234
    Dayna

    I don’t have to think that a man will only be attracted to me and only me. I’ve had one for 26 years of marriage now. He doesn’t watch porn or go to strip clubs since we’ve been married. Does he ever glance here and there of course as do I but it’s one brief glance just because that person or “woman” is in his line of view at the moment. He’d never disrespect me by acting like an in mature 16 year old boy. Some men obviously need to grow up and stop allowing society to Pat them on their heads and saying “It’s okay you’re a man, you can’t help it”  You can help it if you are the kinda man with morals and respect for women. Especially the woman you choose to marry or be in a committed relationship with. 

    1. 234.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      That’s wonderful for you, Dayna. I just don’t want you to be dismissive or take the moral high ground over men who DO occasionally watch porn (like yours truly). I’m a perfectly good husband and my need to take care of myself when my wife is out of town is not remotely disrespectful. Thankfully, SHE understands that.

    2. 234.2
      Jeremy

      2 things, Dayna:
      1) Please do not conflate immaturity with differing priorities.  This is something that a lot of women do when they state that men are not “mature.”  Men are just as mature as women, at any stage of the game (heresy, I know).  They simply have different priorities, and act upon those priorities as they see fit.  Thus, a man who chooses to look at porn is not “acting like an immature 16 year-old.”  In fact, he is acting like an adult who is aware of his needs and is competent to make his own decisions.  If a woman, who otherwise has an excellent relationship with her husband, feels insecure about this, perhaps it is SHE who is acting immature?  Or is it that her priorities simply differ?  Regardless, one’s priorities should dictate how they themselves behave, not dictate how others should behave.
       
       
      2) Men do not need “society” to pat them on the head and tell them anything is ok.  If anything, women are (generally) far more concerned with what society tells them.  Men (generally) do what they want, regardless of society’s messages.  Ironically, in this particular case, many women on the board are trying to tell men what they should or shouldn’t do.  Good luck with that.
       
      Happy to hear that you have an excellent relationship with your husband.  Would it change if you, one day, found that he had been looking at a porn website?  Would you want it to?  Do you really think it should?

      1. 234.2.1
        Huh?

        Was with you up to this point:

         2) Men do not need “society” to pat them on the head and tell them anything is ok.  If anything, women are (generally) far more concerned with what society tells them.  Men (generally) do what they want, regardless of society’s messages. 

        Men seek social acceptance and approval of their peers just like women. Trophy wives? Hair transplants? Just to name a few. We’re all susceptible to society’s pressures.

        btw I think Dayna  was referring to more extreme behavior like ogling and leering as being immature. And it is. You can check out an attractI’ve woman on the street or in a bar or whatever without acting like a stupid, horny teenager. 

    3. 234.3
      Chance

      Dayna,

      I don’t know any men that don’t look at online porn.  However, in most cases, their wives/girlfriends don’t know that they do.  It is actually quite healthy because it virtually eliminates the need for a mistress, which is how men in prior generations satisfied their need for sexual variety.  I can tell you’re threatened by it, but there is no need to worry:  men don’t love their women any less, and they certainly don’t care about the women in those movies. 

  25. 235
    rajai

    I agree with both sides really, men want variety & like to look at variety. Women also like to look at variety, I don’t think either side will ever understand the other side’s view point. Maybe men would understand if woman had the opportunity to check out other men naked on a regular basis, out in society (which in the real world we cannot) to look/stare at/watch other men with better bodies & bigger penises & “fatter” wallets & then maybe they would see what it feels like to feel insecure & inferior. Personally I don’t think my husband would feel good if we were out & I saw a guy walk by with a huge cock & I just couldn’t stop staring at him all nite, I’d think it might make my husband feel inadequate & insecure, just as men’s leering at attractive women make their wives feel inadequate. But in the real world that doesn’t happen so men don’t experience what women do, hence the misunderstanding. So men will never understand women & vice versa. I agree men can be good husbands & fathers & partners while still looking at other women & watching porn, BUT, that still doesn’t make their women feel any better when they are out to dinner & he’s staring at another woman across the room all nite, it might be nature or habit or totally “normal” but it STILL does not alleviate the feelings his wife may have about it. Knowing that my husband is attracted to other women, fantasizes about other women, watches porn, watches other women etc etc just puts a wedge between us that will always be there frankly & will never go away, whether or not it’s “natural” or “normal”, it doesn’t make me feel good about us, but that’s just something I’ve come to terms with. I know he loves me very much too but I also know (always in the back of my mind) that he craves variety & is attracted to other women. And the only reason he doesn’t cheat is because he is “committed” to me, not because he doesn’t want to, all the time. So I “get it” about how men are, but it still doesn’t make me feel any better about it.  

    1. 235.1
      Jeremy

      I understand your viewpoint, Rajai.  And I agree with you that men (or women) should definitely not stare at others, especially when they are with their spouses.  It is one thing to occasionally watch porn while alone.  It is quite another to go on and on about it to your wife.  It is one thing to sneak a glance at a hot woman at a restaurant.  It is quite another to stare at her all evening, and to make comments about it to your wife.
       
      I find the dialogue on this website to be fascinating, especially how it tends to split along gender lines.  Deborah Tannen, in her book about inter-gender communication, points out an interesting phenomenon about how males and females communicate.
       
      When females communicate about their feelings, they tend to accept their feelings and seek (and provide) validation for those feelings.  When men communicate about feelings, they tend to try to talk themselves (and others) into feeling differently by changing the way they think.  
       
      Thus, women on this site will say that having their husband watch porn makes them feel a certain way, and other women validate their point of view.  The men on the site say that women shouldn’t feel that way, they should simply change the way they think (which should change the way they feel).  Based on my reading and personal experience, women will not have success convincing men of the validity of their feelings, and men will not have success convincing women of the validity of their thoughts.  It goes a long way to explain inter-gender conflict, both in real life and on this site.

  26. 236
    rajai

    Thank you SO much for your thoughts Jeremy, I agree with your points completely. Bottom line is men will never “get” women & women will never “get” men. What has to happen like EMK preaches always is, acceptance is the only thing we can do. I mentioned earlier that although I know it’s “normal”/natural for men to be the way they are it still doesn’t make me feel good about men (in general) but I know it’s just the way it is. Women can fight it all they want & say this is bad about men or that is bad about men but it doesn’t change a THING. I have accepted all those things that I do NOT like about my husband because he is a man but I still love him. I do have a certain wall that will always be up with him though after learning more about how men are. If he tells me he thinks I’m beautiful or that I’m hot & sexy the first thing that pops in my head is “so are all the other women you are constantly checking out online or in person”, so although I believe him, I know in my heart I am NOT the ONLY one for him, he just happens to be married to me & he’s stuck. And I know he loves me dearly but it’s almost like I think men love SO differently than women because you can compartmentalize sex & love. In a way I think men actually “love” on a more platonic level than women just because they continue to be attracted sexually to other women but “love” their wife. Does that make sense? Almost like husbands end up loving their spouse “like a sister” after a while. I’m not saying that’s a bad  thing just my observation. And not saying men aren’t still attracted to their wife but they are also very much attracted to other women as well. So really after reading this blog for a while I’ve built a wall up between my husband & I, and although we’re very much in love there’s always a part of me that feels betrayed in a way by him simply by being a man & wanting other women & being turned on by other women etc. But I do accept it, there is nothing wrong or bad about him being the way he is because it’s natural. 

    1. 236.1
      Jeremy

      I actually think you have it backward, Rajai.  I have mentioned this in posts on other topics.  It all comes down to the 3 “love” chemicals – dopamine, testosterone, and oxytocin.  Dopamine gives us the “in love” feeling, which both spouses may have in equal measure, but which always fades with time.  The imbalance lies with the other 2 chemicals.
       
      Testosterone is responsible for lust – sexual attraction.  Men have WAY more testosterone in their system than women.  So expect men to have more difficulty controlling their impulses as to whom they find attractive (note, I did not say they should act on these impulses, but that they have them.  Women have them too, but generally less strongly due to much lower testosterone).
       
      Oxytocin is the chemical responsible for feelings of bonding.  And, in general, women swim in oxytocin while it is much harder to come by in men.  Women get oxytocin from orgasm, but also from emotional conversation (with anyone), physical touch, and from breastfeeding their children.  Men only get oxytocin from sex with a partner they have feelings for (not from masturbation, and generally not from dispassionate sex), and it’s effects are short lasting (1-2 days before it fades). 
       
      Thus, women (not men) are the ones that eventually are more likely to love their spouses platonically (oxytocin), since their dopamine fades and their testosterone is low.  Men, who have generally high testosterone, rarely love their spouses platonically.  If they do, suspect low testosterone or a marital problem. 
       
      But my last, and most important, point to you is that when your husband tells you that you are beautiful and are the one for him, BELIEVE HIM.  It does not mean that he is not physically attracted to others (remember, testosterone), but that he is pair-bonded to YOU, and only you.  This is what, IMHO, you need to understand about men.  The fact that they are sexually attracted to the female form does not lessen their commitment, love, or monogamy toward their wives.

  27. 237
    rajai

    Thank you for the insight again Jeremy…love is a fascinating thing I suppose!  I do believe my husband thinks I’m beautiful & sexy & attractive, but the fact that I know he also finds hundreds of other women beautiful & sexy & attractive (some times more so) diminishes the worth/meaning, to me at least. Like I mentioned before, I will never understand men but I try to accept him as he is. I know he really loves me but what does that really mean when men can compartmentalize sex so that seeing a hot woman on the street makes his wiener wiggle & his thoughts race about having sex with her even if he “loves” me?  So in the end “love” for men is about pair bonding (like you mentioned) like being “best friends” with a woman & that is not sexual (in my opinion).  For women, who don’t compartmentalize sex, “love” is much more correlated to a sexual energy with someone. For men, who can easily have sexual energy with just about any attractive woman, it’s more about having a “platonic energy” with someone. Seems that way to me anyway? Women don’t tend to have sexual energy with most attractive men so her “love” is more sexual in nature than a man’s. I gratefully appreciate your feedback & believe your view points, seeing as you are a man & understand your own sex much better than I! And I agree, as you mentioned, it’s commitment that keeps men monogamous, not the lack of desire for the female form. Thanks so much for your thoughts!  My husband & I have had this conversation about how men & women love SO differently.   

  28. 238
    Chris weir

     
    I read these posts every now and then and I feel bad because the truth behind all the mad craze is simply the lack of discipline. We all live in a community which requires a degree of compromise of individual freedom for the sake of maintaining the peace for those sharing living space within the community.  A person in their home has the freedom to do whatever they want but once they enter the shared public domain they sacrifice a measure of their individual freedom and must conform to the will of the community.  
     
    A naked woman walking by is of course a pleasure to the single guy, but a lack of peace to the husband just wanting to buy food at the store with his wife. His libido isn’t turned off he is simply married and now needs to concentrate to maintain his expectation of respect all the more so just because the woman did not dress with consideration for others. Yes she has a female body, so what? so do billions of other people. Its nothing new or unique. Any young healthy female presenting an uncovered female form within the company of men will draw attention. It doesn’t mean you are any more attractive or special than the next girl, it just means your revealing more. You do not own the patent on the female form. 
     
    Men can not act as though they are watching tv at home and soak up every pore visually possible on a woman walking by. It disrupts the peace of the community. It destroys the peace of your spouse and demonstrates the lack of discipline which translates to general weakness.  
     
    The benefits of living in a community is convenience, aid and protection. If you want to live in a land that is shared you need to compromise to accommodate other people. If you value your own individual thrills over the consideration of others, live on an uninhabited island. Pornography cultivates sexual deviation from the norm, which may be fine and dandy for those who are unwilling to admit it but it has destroyed our society. Women are guilty of hurting the feminine cause by providing the supply, men are guilty by providing the demand. Prostitution, sex trafficking is all indirectly related to mans failure to conform to the structure and framework for sex that marriage facilitated. Marriage was the pillar of society. 
     
    A boy likes a girl and naturally wants sex. Goes to the father and is denied access to the daughter because of the lack of financial stability. Boy goes to college gets a career buys a house comes back and the father says ok you can court my daughter if she approves. Boy spends a fortune in order to charm her in exchange for her attention and non sexual company. Boy asks the woman for hand in marriage. She accepts they marry Boy gets sex. Woman has children. Children are supported by preset financial stability, house and so forth. Two parents means no daycare. Values and respect taught to children not by peers or television but by the parents. No stds, no bastard children, no population boom. Sorry folks the lack of discipline and defiance to sound proven structure causes the buildings to collapse. With porn men are comparing their wives with other naked women who they have not even earned the right to such honored and sacred intimacy. Porn raises the bar of sexual expectation much like having multiple partners to compare and contrast with. “well I liked the way sarah spun on my penis, but Erica brings a friend to the bed.” 
     
    The sad thing is the most immoral people who are in Hollywood are presuming authority on morale messages and values in media when they are not deserving or qualified to preach anything remotely ethical. Over time this has taken a toll on culture. 
     
    Men lack the respect of restraint and women lack the respect of modesty. We need to respect each other by not provoking sexual attention or by succumbing to it. Men want to be attractive and so do women when they are single but being attractive and being sexually provocative are two different things. With time we simply become more naked and less composed. Its not biologically mandatory but a probably that when a naked woman walks by, the man will have strong natural impulses to visually absorb the visual display triggering what is both natural and conditioned. The question is does he? He doesn’t have to look. He already knows an attractive woman is coming. He can avoid looking and would get better with practice. Especially when he realizes that aside from size and color variations it’s the same thing as he has always seen before.
     
    Regardless of if you are in a relationship or not you are a heterosexual being. You are defined as being attracted not to your wife solely but rather the opposite gender in general. The man is at fault in the area of a lack of discipline. We learn discipline in all other aspects of our lives, such as avoiding road rage and taking stress, eating healthy or insults. Men have taught themselves to not look at our sisters as sexual objects despite them possessing the same hip waist ratio that the woman walking down the street does. There is no excuse to look other than the lack of restraint. 
     
    women have fought so hard to gain the respect of men but realized at the end of that journey  in order to be respected as a person without sexuality coming into play you need to turn off the mans sexual radar (which inevitably affects his ability to relate with the female gender) or mask the woman’s sexual appeal all together by covering the female triggering curves. some woman have very little sexual appeal so no problem there in the respect department. other men are less sexually oriented in later stages of life or have more control of themselves.  
     
    we can argue about biology, we can go on and on about social conditioning in our society but the bottom line is the lack of discipline or not wanting to have discipline in that area. 
     
    Ultimately we as men have to recognize women want their cake and to eat it too. Women want the ability to objectify themselves for attention because they see how weak men are generally speaking at controlling themselves and also to have respect as a non sexualized person. Most men are accustomed to giving in to vice temptation and divorced all sense of propriety. Our society has become a world where men are voyeurs and women are exhibitionists both men and women push the legal envelope to a ridiculous degree. Wearing underwear or lingerie at the beach and volley ball shorts and shear cotton shirts everywhere else. 
     
    The sad thing is that as long as men will look at women without restraint, women will dress with less restraint and the real victim in this war between men and women is the peace of the community.
     

  29. 239
    BBW

    Agree with everything you said Evan. But “small noses??” Wth? I had no idea that small noses were supposedly hot (or flat Barbie butts). But then again I don’t date white guys :) 

  30. 240
    tamara

    Seeing some of these comments, it struck me how dangerous it can be to love someone too overwhelmingly, too possessively. I can imagine the hurt tt some ppl feel on stuff like this– but haven’t felt anything like this in a decade. Perhaps I’m lucky in that, apart from my first love, I’ve never felt that kinda love which takes over ur logic and dominates u, where u feel u need 100% of his attraction, desire, attention and love to be happy. That kinda love may be romanticised in songs and novels, but it’s clear to me it can hurt like hell in the real world.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

You may use these HTML tags and attributes: <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <strike> <strong>