My Boyfriend is Wonderful, but Not Ambitious or Successful

My Boyfriend is Wonderful, but Not Ambitious or Successful

Hi Evan,

I have been struggling with the fact I have a wonderful man in my life who loves me more than I’ve ever felt loved, but I’m just not satisfied somehow. We have known one another for about ten years dating on and off, taking a four year break at one point. He is VERY persistent and continues to take me back into his life if I let him. We are compatible on many levels, but there is one thing that continues to turn me off (from ten years ago to now) and that is his lack of ambition to be successful professionally. I wouldn’t be picky about his career field of choice but at the rate it’s going I’ll never see him in a 6 o’clock loosened tie… which is a huge turn on for me.

I’m very much that young professional go getter with the high stress job, always moving to the next promotion. I’m busy all the time professionally and personally because I thrive on feeling accomplished. He on the other hand is satisfied with bringing home an okay pay check to put food on his table, not that concerned with finishing college (he’s 31) and rarely has anything interesting to talk about outside of “us”, movies, and other media outlet driven conversation. A full day of freedom in my life does not revolve around TV, 90% of his would.

I can’t let go of wishing he were a stronger, more creative, more successful man who I could look to for experienced life advice. I’m very independent but I’d also like to get some reassurance and empathy from a reliable source from time to time. I know that’s harsh. I would never say those things to him, but it’s how I feel. I find the sexiest thing about a man is his intelligence, and no matter if a person is well read or not, a great deal of intelligence comes from professional life experience. Please tell me I’m being too hard on him and myself.  I should be happy to have a man who loves me and I can trust.

Thanks,
CJ

Thank you, CJ, for writing one of the most self-aware letters I’ve run. I think everyone here can feel your pain. Love is only easy when we’re so whipped that we can’t even think clearly. In such circumstances, there are no decisions to be made. But right now, you’re seeing things quite clearly. Which means the world is grey, not black and white.

Love is only easy when we’re so whipped that we can’t even think clearly.

So before I get into talking about him, let’s talk about you.

You’re not a gold-digger for wanting a guy who is more ambitious.
You’re not snobby for finding intelligence sexy.
You’re not shallow for craving conversation that doesn’t revolve around pop culture.
And you’re not wrong for wishing he were stronger, more creative, and more experienced professionally.

The questions that linger for me are these….

1)    Are compatibility and kindness more important than worldliness and ambition?
2)    Is it realistic to think that you can find a worldly, professional man who is as kind and compatible as your current boyfriend?

This is the calculus of dating. And the same answers don’t apply to everyone. Which is why giving advice on such individual matters is somewhere between impossible and pointless.

But that doesn’t mean I can’t try.

Someone told me recently that women expect men to fulfill ALL of their needs, which sets them up for failure. They want men to fulfill the role of their best girlfriend and their rock solid Marlboro Man simultaneously. As I said in “Men Don’t Go Both Ways” chapter of “Why You’re Still Single”, these are different men and you’ll always be disappointed if you expect a man to cover all bases. Strangely, this is one area in which I think men “get it” more. We can compartmentalize. Which is why we’d rather watch football with only the guys, while you’d like us to come shoe shopping with you.

Point is, it’s a failing proposition to expect one man to be all things to you. Thus, you have to make hard choices. What’s most important to you? And what things can you NOT get from anyone BUT your boyfriend?

I’ve wrestled with that myself, because, like you, I get a rise out of ambition, philosophy, and creativity. Who doesn’t? But I can talk to my business coach about my business, I can talk to my best guy friend about philosophy, and I can experience my own creativity and others’ creativity in 1000 other forms. But I can’t make love to my business coach. I can’t wake up next to my best guy friend. And with all the art and culture out in the world, I don’t need my spouse to be a creator as much as an appreciator.

I get the joy of sophistication. It’s fun to feel like the witty, urbane couple that can break bread with the prime minister if need be. Just know that apart from the spark you feel around a sophisticate, it doesn’t have much inherent value. The ability to quote Proust pales in comparison with the person who will drive you to your chemo treatments in thirty years.

The ability to quote Proust pales in comparison with the person who will drive you to your chemo treatments in thirty years.

So, back to the original question: are compatibility and kindness more important than worldliness and ambition? Well, if it were either kindness OR worldliness, I’d say yes. But there are ambitious people who are kind as well. And it would be easy to tell you to dump your guy and seek one of these guys out. The thing is that most good qualities often come with bad qualities as well. The ambitious guy may work 70 hours a week. The sophisticated guy may be a know-it-all and a snob. You just don’t know until you put yourself out there. There’s a pretty big risk in doing so.

I would encourage you to look long and hard at what really matters, CJ, and how hard it is to find it. For years, I said that I wasn’t jealous of any of my married friends because it’s not like they married MY wife. And I meant it – I never really met anyone with whom I was super-compatible. But now that I have someone with whom I’m super-compatible, my mind succumbs to the temptation – what if there’s someone else? Someone younger. Someone more accomplished. Someone more well-read.

Is there someone like that out there? Maybe. But she wouldn’t have the number one quality that my girlfriend has: she accepts me as I am, and loves me unconditionally. No other girlfriend I’ve ever had has done that. Which is why I’m keeping her and never letting her go.

I can’t say what’s right for you, my friend. Intellectual stimulation matters. Money definitely matters. But if you can get stimulation from other people and you can make money yourself, why not land the one thing you can’t get anywhere else – a partner for life?

87
28

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Comments:

  1. 31
    Lee Coles

    Ambitious is connected to confidence, and is thus sexy.

  2. 32
    vino

    hunter:

    My point exactly. She doesn’t. If a man has collected material things, he, stays out of the dating scene, what does he need a woman for?..

    Same analysis applies both ways.

    michele:

    Don’t think you are patronizing at all. I’m simply taking what I see as reluctance on CJ’s part to py for bf, the comments by smartcookie and nature girl, coupled with other threads on here to reach the conclusion that many, if not most women, have a problem with possible having to support a guy. I’m just taking that & saying guys should have the same problem with support women, creating the only solution – equal earners should date.

    Of course this is patently absurd in practice. But I wonder how women (not all but most) would react to having the same criteria applied to them as they apply to men vis-a-vis money issues…

    1. 32.1
      Ellipses

      To the concept of if women expect men to make more then why shouldn’t men expect the same, therefore date someone who makes equal – while in theory this seems fair the fact that, in general women overall still earn less than men, this becomes less balanced than it sounds. 
      Whether it be by choice career or not. Although I don’t think the issue here with CJ necessarily is the money, but the ambition and drive for growth, what those attributes bring to the table in the relationship and interactions (intelligence, experience, etc). 

  3. 33
    Sarah G

    Another thought: Who is going to be taking him to chemotherapy treatments? (And planning for retirement, feeding the 401K, buying the house, etc.?)

  4. 34
    hunter

    To Michele,

    What happens if the she loses her job/career? I work with herds of men and this happens often. The marriage, continues, only he cuts back on buying his toys, and the exotic vacation spots are no longer planned….

  5. 35
    Sally

    To Michele post #29

    You ask what happens if a partner loses their job. This is the crux of the problem, if that partner is ambitious then they will look for a new job and during that time you would be happy to support them. If on the other hand they have no ambition and sit watching daytime tv every day then your patience and support are going to run out very quickly, as well as your money.

  6. 36
    Sarah G

    The only situations I know of where a man is supporting a woman is when there are kids involved and they’ve decided that it’s better for her to stay home to raise them. I can’t think of one relationship where the man is supporting the woman in any other situation. Back in 1955 women didn’t support themselves, but it just isn’t like that anymore. So I never understand it when these threads turn to talk about men supporting women as if this really happens out there in most people’s lives. Any woman on this board (who isn’t a stay at home mom) being supported by a man?

    To bring it back to the OP, however: I don’t think that anyone wants to support another able-bodied adult, and in the case of a marriage nothing can be assumed in that regard — career/childcare issues are handled in all different ways these days. But CJ isn’t supporting her boyfriend, she just wants a guy with a vision and finds that a nice guy without a vision just doesn’t turn her on. That’s how I read the issue, anyway. I get it — she’s firey and he’s watery. Water douses fire and when fire is your nature, water can be a real drag. There are lots of tie-wearing guys out there who are upright (not cocaine-snorting whore-mongers) who want a woman who is smart and effective in the world; lots of women (as indicated on this board) who want a guy who’s just nice and in for the long haul.

    I don’t understand why this has to turn into a gender issue — CJ is ambitious and loves the world of work and is presumably good at it and wants to share that with her intimate partner. Why are some on here punishing her with cancer diagnoses and abusive boyfriend scenarios? Why aren’t we wondering what the glue is that has held these two people together for 10 years off and on and coming back for more (on both sides)? The glue is the important part — the important question would be, Is the glue based on something positive (to be affirmed) or negative (to be rejected)? Only those two can answer that question. Which, I guess, is what Evan said. :)

  7. 37
    Michele

    vino…regarding your post #32.

    I asked you a direct question and you did NOT answer it.

  8. 38
    Michele

    hunter…your post #34.

    If those herds of men are satisfied with their wives unemployed status, something seems amiss (in my opinion).

  9. 39
    hunter

    to Sarah G,

    I think CJ must be maturing, age wise, because, there, was nothing wrong with her boyfriend in the early stages of the relationship. People, as we mature, it is not like we become selective, it is more like we get sensitive..

  10. 40
    vino

    Sarah G wrote:

    “The only situations I know of where a man is supporting a woman is when there are kids involved and they’ve decided that it’s better for her to stay home to raise them. I can’t think of one relationship where the man is supporting the woman in any other situation.”

    - Ummmm I grant that there are instances where they jointly decide she can stay home & raise the kids. However, particularly if married, he doesn’t really have any say in it, unless he’s willing to divorce. Because, I’ve run across the latter situation, where the kids are off to school, and she does nada. She puts foot down, under pain of divorce. He’s screwed, because he’ll pay through nose if bluff is called, particularly if she hasn’t been working.

    Kinda circles back on the point that ladies in general like guys who make more, as they have more options. Stay home with kids or not. Point is, he has none…keep earning.

    “Any woman on this board (who isn’t a stay at home mom) being supported by a man?”

    - Not trying to pick a fight, but any women on this board who expects men to pay for everything in the relationship IS being supported by a man. He’s underwriting her social life, at a minimum.

    I read CJ’s dissatisfied on personal levels but financial ones also. “…one thing that continues to turn me off (from ten years ago to now) and that is his lack of ambition to be successful professionally. ”

    Also, CJ wrote “He on the other hand is satisfied with bringing home an okay pay check to put food on his table…”

    Clearly, money is on her mind also. It’s a gender issue when you look at the larger picture…that being women in general like guys to make more $ than they do (or the same, at bare minimum), no matter how much $ they themselves (ladies) make. My only point is that I think to be fair, guys should apply the same standard to the ladies they date.

  11. 41
    Steve


    Sarah G Apr 26th 2008 at 05:23 am 36
    Back in 1955 women didn’t support themselves, but it just isn’t like that anymore.

    I used to think that too, but in the last year I have been encountering a lot of diversity in this regard. I think it varies by geographical region and even by individuals.

    I had a house husband neighbor for a while( intellectually I was fine with it, but emotionally it made me very uncomfortable ). I have a friend who was raised in a northeastern liberal family who is the same age I am. She doesn’t work, she doesn’t have kids, and she doesn’t have a problem with it. She recently got a part time job because her husband will only give her money for essentials and she wanted pocket money. I have a friend from a blue collar background. When she and her girlfriends are in LTRs their boyfriends support them. I have heard them ( & some of my girl-friends who were raised in northeastern liberal famlies ) express how they are fed up with the whole working thing and would love for a man to come along and support them. These are not older women from another era. These are women in my age group and younger. OTHOH I have about 3 girl-friends who are regularly angry because they have perpetually depressed slacker live-in boyfriends who they often end up supporting for months at a time. OTOH hand, again, I have friends from a very conservative blue collar background whose marriage was stressed when the wife took too long after having a kid to get back into the work force.

    There is just too much diversity on this issue .


    I don’t think that anyone wants to support another able-bodied adult, and in the case of a marriage nothing can be assumed in that regard career/childcare issues are handled in all different ways these days.

    Amen. I get stressed just hearing other people talk about how they would like someone other than me to be responsible for them. Who needs birth control when you have a turnoff like that? :)

  12. 42
    A-L

    I’m not sure if I agree that C.J. should be thrown into the money-hungry woman category that some posters are suggesting she should be in.

    CJ said, “I wouldn’t be picky about his career field of choice but at the rate it’s going I’ll never see him in a 6 o’clock loosened tie,” it seems as though when they started out dating he was interested in a tie kind of career. Perhaps he took a low-end job in a company, thinking that he’d finish his degree and work his way up, but hasn’t really done that yet (hence, “at the rate it’s going.”)

    CJ also said she wished she had a “more successful man who I could look to for experienced life advice.” Maybe she wants to talk to someone about saving for a house, or retirement, or other goals that are not necessarily in the realm of golddigging. But perhaps her boyfriend’s salary is such that he can’t be doing those things, and that’s where her unhappiness lies.

    All we know is that her boyfriend has enough to put food on his table. But I don’t think it’s unrseasonable for someone (of either sex) to want to build towards things like a house, retirement, vacations, etc, and expect their partner to do the same. It sounds as though the boyfriend isn’t there and isn’t pushing himself to get there, and that’s where the difficulty may be arising.

  13. 43
    hunter

    to Michele,

    They are dissatisfied, but, their wife says, she will no longer seek employment. I agree with you, there is something amiss. Most have been divorced 2-3 times and they are not going through that again. So they just suck it up….

  14. 44
    hunter

    to Vino,

    You said, “guys should apply the same standard to the ladies they date.” I agree with you, trouble is, that is a much smaller pool of single women…..

  15. 45
    Sarah G

    Thanks, Steve! I love that you are always so even-handed in your responses and try to see an issue from so many different points of view.

    On that note, Vino: I am dating alot these days and I always offer to pay, split, let him pay — I just feel out the situation. Some guys feel really put off when you split it — the only guy who has shut me out was the guy from the date where we went dutch. The guys who paid are still interested. Go figure.

    I read recently (maybe here?) that the guy might pay for the first couple of dates to give a nod to convention, but that after that time he expects the woman to pony up. That seems reasonable to me if we look at dating as courtship. Follow convention until you know each other well enough to discuss these issues and then go deeper into defining the relationship and how it will work if both are in agreement.

    (Of course, if you just have one first date after another, that’s going to result in some pretty lopsided paying. But if a person is having only one first date after another I would suspect that there is something else going on besides meetin up with an unfortunate string of dinner whores.)

    But I must say that dating for women has a lot of hidden costs. Being attractive in the dating world ain’t cheap for women. And men will not date you unless you are attractive. Case in point: Last night I was out with three very attractive women and a very attractive guy friend. The attractive guy we were with said that he expects a woman to dress nicely for him when he asks her out, and he recounted several first dates that didn’t turn into second dates b/c the women didn’t do the feminine thing and get gussied up.

    One of the women with us last night was my gorgeous sister, who is very into the feminine thing. She was in town for a big event — asked up by a date. He has spent a lot of money to woo her — incl. the ticket price for Friday night’s black tie business shindig for him. My sister’s price tag for going all fem to this black tie event? About $500. The formal dress, the hair at the salon, the drive up to where I live, the parking, the incidental costs. She doesn’t at all feel that she is in his debt. She did what was required to be as trophyish as she could get — and she does a great job at it. Men fall all over themselves to go out with her. And they are thrilled to pay her way — because she is worth it.

    So perhaps we all adhere to convention a little bit (men paying for the date, women paying for the very-costly, very-secret (so-as-not-to-destroy-the-fantasy) stuff that makes us so dateable. Later on, when the women start picking up the tab maybe we’ll be showing up in our gym clothes with our hair in a ponytail. I actually like reaching that point of intimacy with a guy. It means that we’ve seen each other naked, and that that naked person is who we now see when we look at each other, not the superficial bait the respective genders use to seduce the other into one’s orbit. :)

  16. 46
    vino

    hunter re: #44 – I agree. That’s kinda the point. I don’t see a problem with it though. If there are some women who complain there are no good guys now, imagine what would occur if only 10-20% of guys applied the same financial considerations to ladies as ladies do to them. Chaos.

    Sara G:

    Dating for women has hidden costs? I respectfully don’t buy that argument. “The attractive guy we were with said that he expects a woman to dress nicely for him when he asks her out . . . gussied up.”

    First, no one is saying the woman needs to go buy new clothes, go to a salon specially for a first date, etc. Just look nice with what you have. No special work need be done. If a guy expects a women to show up for a first date as though it’s a prom or semi-formal event, I think that’s unreasonable.

    “Being attractive in the dating world ain t cheap for women.”

    - Why is that a guy’s problem? If you have a marketing or advertising cost in business, that’s a cost of doing business. You can try to pass it on to the consumer. Maybe some will pay. Maybe some won’t. Consumers are increasingly refusing to bear that carrying cost. Many will, though.

    Also, you think the attractive guy you were with doesn’t spend $ to be an attractive guy? He does. If a professional, good suits, shirts, ties, shoes, casual clothes, monthly haircuts all add up also. This is often ignored. So too is that the item-by-item cost for men’s clothes is generally much higher than ladies. Suits, shoes, etc…

    Your sister’s situation is a case of a special event. So? You already said he has spent a lot of money to woo her. Already. Nothing wrong with some quid pro quo. BTW, he’s spending money on it also, re: either renting or buying tux, etc.

    “So perhaps we all adhere to convention a little bit (men paying for the date, women paying for the very-costly, very-secret (so-as-not-to-destroy-the-fantasy) stuff that makes us so dateable.”

    - Like what is so very secret & costly? This isn’t the CIA budget, for goodness’ sake.

    “Later on, when the women start picking up the tab maybe we’ll be showing up in our gym clothes with our hair in a ponytail.”

    - Problem is, it doesn’t happen very often. If one doesn’t start out paying tabs, they don’t suddenly do it later, as it hasn’t been the behavioral pattern. It’s expected not to. She then shows up in gym clothes anyway….

  17. 47
    Michele

    hunter…..your post #43.

    Good that you elucidated some. Their wives sound like they are sorry as Hell !!!

    Coming from a family that has an incredibly strong work ethic (both genders) cannot imagine a guy “sucking it” up. Then again their stats (several failed marriages) do say something about them.

    You seem to be above way above average in the well-balanced quality…am betting you choose to follow another path.

  18. 48
    Sarah G

    Vino, you clearly have no idea what women go through to be attractive to men.

  19. 49
    Steve

    Sarah G Apr 28th 2008 at 09:46 am 48
    Vino, you clearly have no idea what women go through to be attractive to men.

    I don’t think most men do.

    Keeping in shape with exercise and proper nutrition can take up at least 3 – 5 hours a week. I know, I do it ( for my own fun only ) and I could easily spend more.

    Most of the time keeping up on current fashion is necessary to keep a woman from looking like a second choice in the dating arena. That can be a hobby onto itself.

    Various depilatory activities and skin care activities can also polish off a few more hours a week.

    Anyone who has ever had a single sister also knows that applying makeup, nail polish and futzing with their hair can easily take an hour a day out of their schedule.

    Men’s fashions are orders of magnitude simpler. A guy can get away with selecting and shopping for clothing once per year without looking like a dork. Once you take keeping in shape out of the equation a guy can be good to go a shower, a shave, and clean clothing that is probably already hanging in his closet.

  20. 50
    vino

    Re: Sarah G & Steve’s additions:

    Soooo…

    I need to underwrite a woman’s shopping, cosmo reeading, mani-pedis, facials, botox, and makeup. (You pay for it directly or pay for dates = same result of funding her social life).

    I grant about the ONLY thing women have to spend $ on guys don’t is makeup (unless you’re in LA, hahaha). While it’s not the cheapest thing in the world, we’re not talking $500/mo either.

    Otherwise, there aren’t all of these ‘hidden’ costs. Both sexes need to do the same things. So these ‘hidden’ costs of supposedly looking good only to attract us as a justification to get us to pay for everything is silly, IMO.

    Not sure I agree men’s fashions are orders of magnitude simpler. A professional guy has to have good work clothes. Good business casual clothes. Crappy shoes & you’re out – Cole Haan’s or better. none of this stuff is cheap.

    “A guy can get away with selecting and shopping for clothing once per year without looking like a dork.”

    - Maybe, but he has to spend a ton of $ to do it. I’m only saying that putting clothes on your back as a means of attracting the opposite sex cancels each other out as rationales to justify one paying for another.

    So if I take someone out for a $150 dinner one night, I’m also underwriting her to look good for guys the other 29 days of the month, by reimbursing her $75 she would otherwise have had to spend herself on looking good to attract guys. Where’s the benefit to me month long?

    Damn I’m cranky today. The logic still works, though. You wanna be equal, be equal.

  21. 51
    vino

    michele,

    “… does one ask to see a potential partner’s W-2′s or 1099′s (for the past several years) before the first kiss?”

    - Not specifically, but it is helpful to ask very specific questions. What neighborhood do they live in? What specifically do they do for work & for whom? Find out what kind of car they drive. Know what people make for many occupations. Isn’t hard to figure a good approximation.

    “… what happens if one of the partners looses her/his job/career? The interim (until a new job/career is found) could certainly place the relationship in peril.”

    - Yep. I bet you see spike in divorce rates over the next few years, too, due to worsening economy.

  22. 52
    vino

    Forgot to add

    What neighborhood do they live in? What specifically do they do for work & for whom? Find out what kind of car they drive. Know what people make for many occupations.

    - This is what EVERY woman has asked me before 1st date or within 1st 30 minutes of it. Just take the initiative with her 1st.

  23. 53
    hunter

    to vino,

    Women almost have to ask, how we make a living, they know that men relate to/identify themselves, with their jobs. I think most women know, not all lawyers make earnings in the six digits.(know high school teachers with law degrees/bar exam certs.) Kind of like not all family doctors make big bucks either.

    What would you think of yourself, had you been talking to a woman for most of the evening, you never asked her what she did for a living, only to find out, after she was gone, that, she was an oil baroness/hotel heiress, or maybe one of Hugh Hefner’s favorite girls?……..LOL!…

  24. 54
    Kat Wilder

    As I read through this post and the answers, I realized it is exactly the situation my friend is dealing with of being married to a man who is a wonderful dad and has everything going on except the ambition that she has and that she wants in a mate.

    Maybe I don’t need to tell you how it appears to be ending.

    If this is an issue CJ can’t get over, then there’s nothing that will make it change for her or him unless he wants to change. And for himself, too, not her.

    That’s not to say that loving partners shouldn’t challenge each other or call them on their bad stuff; that’s an important part of caring for someone (as long as it’s done in a loving, nonjudgmental way).

    Still, each one of us deserves to be seen and accepted for who and what we are. I think CJ would want the same, too.

  25. 55
    vino

    hunter:

    I have disagree with that assertion men relate to/identify themselves, with their jobs. Not just my friends, but nearly all of my clients do not relate that way at all.

    “I think most women know, not all lawyers make earnings in the six digits.(know high school teachers with law degrees/bar exam certs.) Kind of like not all family doctors make big bucks either.”

    - Right. That’s why they ask where you live, etc. A nonprofit lawyer generally isn’t going to live in the gated community in a 3000 sf house (unless the heiress/heir you previously mentioned, lol)

    “What would you think of yourself, had you been talking to a woman for most of the evening, you never asked her what she did for a living, only to find out, after she was gone, that, she was an oil baroness/hotel heiress, or maybe one of Hugh Hefner’s favorite girls?..LOL!”

    - Don’t care…heiress will usually have $$ tied up in trusts, etc. Lord knows I won’t get any of it, nor do I expect/hope to.

    - One of Hef’s fave girls? Let me get my hazmat suit…ugh.

  26. 56
    vino

    As I read through Kat WIlder’s #54 and other previous posters, something struck me.

    “That’s not to say that loving partners shouldn’t challenge each other or call them on their bad stuff; that’s an important part of caring for someone (as long as it’s done in a loving, nonjudgmental way).

    Why is it if the guy’s not as ambitious, like CJ’s bf for Kat’s friend, it’s “bad” and the result is he should always be cut loose? I guess what I’m asking is should the same standards of ambition be applied equally to each sex? So that the result is if a woman’s not ambitious, she should be cut loose.

    “Still, each one of us deserves to be seen and accepted for who and what we are. I think CJ would want the same, too.”

    The problem in Kat’s and CJ’s scenarios is that the standard of acceptance changed…he was accepted before, presumably knowing he wasn’t the most ambitious. Now it suddenly not okay. CJ & Kat’s friend already knowing this lack of ambition and accepting the consequence now don’t like the consequences and want to be rid of the consequences. Curious.

  27. 57
    Sarah G

    No, Vino, the same standards should not be applied to each gender b/c our biology sets us on different paths from the get-go.

  28. 58
    vino

    Sorry, Sarah. I don’t get your logic. If you can earn everything a man can, the same FINANCIAL standards should necessarily apply. Please expand, if you would, on how biology should mandate such a financial double standard and disparity.

  29. 59
    Kat Wilder

    vino,
    Well, I am not saying it’s OK: I am saying that it’s not right that what was once OK isn’t anymore.

    Of course, we should all be more mindful BEFORE we get married of what we really want in a partner (and what we ourselves bring to the table). But even if we are, we change, our circumstances change and our partners change. Learning to navigate all that together is hard but, that’s what commitment is about, right?

    And I agree the same standards should be applied to both genders, but instead of the financial/ambition issues men face, women usually have to wrestle with the Madonna/Whore thing that happens after they become moms. But don’t get me started …
    ;-)

  30. 60
    A-L

    Vino wrote, “I guess what I’m asking is should the same standards of ambition be applied equally to each sex? So that the result is if a woman’s not ambitious, she should be cut loose.”

    I know several men (including Vino, if I’m not mistaken) that say that women are attracted to power, boldness, and ambition while men are attracted to the caring, nurturing, and sensitive. So being ambitious is not necessarily to the woman’s advantage in the dating game. (See any thread about who pays for anything, who asks whom out first, and why successful women have a hard time finding a guy.)

    And sorry about the previous partial post. It was my dog’s fault. :)

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