Can Weight Loss Ruin Your Relationship?

Can Weight Loss Ruin Your Relationship?

21 couples participated in research where one partner lost 30lbs or more and how it impacted their relationship. While many were happy and felt closer emotionally and sexually, in other couples, the weight loss caused complications and triggered fundamental insecurities.

“The thinner partners began nagging their significant others to hit the gym. People whose weight hadn’t budged became critical, disinterested in sex, and even tried to tempt their partners with fatty foods in order to derail their progress. The difference between happy and not-so-happy couples boiled down to the amount of support in the relationship. When both partners were on board with a weight-loss plan, they felt closer. But if one person resisted, their bond suffered.”

This is basic human psychology, but it doesn’t make it any less confusing or painful. The thin partner becomes evangelical about weight-loss and wants to spread that joy to everyone around her. The partner who is content being heavy feels left behind and resentful, as if being fat isn’t “good enough”.

She dumped me three times based on her belief that a guy like me would never be faithful to a woman like her.

“Weight loss causes relationship stress because it triggers people’s fundamental insecurities,” Bethany Marshall, PhD, a Los Angeles-based psychotherapist, tells Yahoo Shine. Some people interpret their partner’s healthy lifestyle as a sign he or she is focused on their own life, which can feel exclusive. It’s also possible that one person appreciates the other’s new, leaner body, but not the attention it brings from the opposite sex, says Marshall.”

Weight loss is a very personal issue for me, since I’ve had at least two girlfriends who lost over 50lbs prior to dating me. One of them, in particular, remained insecure about her body long after she’d gotten thin. She’d get upset when men looked at her in the gym (because they never would have done that before). She’d freak out if I looked at a model on the cover of a magazine (because how could I be attracted to my girlfriend if I also found models appealing?). While my girlfriend had dropped the weight, she still saw herself as the heavy girl with the chip on her shoulder. I felt sympathetic to her but was never able to make her feel secure in her own skin. She dumped me three times based on her belief that a guy like me would never be faithful to a woman like her. She was wrong, but I hope she’s happy, and doesn’t carry around her psychological baggage the way she used to.

If you have lost weight or dated someone who’s lost weight, please, share your experiences below.

Click here for full article.

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Comments:

  1. 1
    Steelheart

    It would seem from the article that the problem isn’t weight loss, it’s insecurity… just like so many other things in relationships! If you look at diet and fitness as a source of power over others, then of course you’re going to want to throw it in people’s faces if you have it, and feel threatened by other people who you think are more fit than you. 
    None of this is to discount the difficulty of untangling one’s identity and one’s worth as a person from one’s appearance, diet, fitness level, etc. … But for the healthiest relationships (with others and ourselves), it’s got to be done. Even though it’s incredibly @#&* hard. 
     
     
     

  2. 2
    BeenThruTheWars

    After my divorce in 1995, I lost 80 pounds on Weight Watchers, going from a size 20 to a 6. I dated lots of great guys, and made it a policy not to tell them I used to be very heavy unless or until they became a steady boyfriend. By far the most handsome (athletic, 30-something young Robert Redford lookalike) told me over dessert on our fifth or sixth date that he had gone out with a woman who’d lost a lot of weight, which he hadn’t known when he first asked her out. Once he found that out he dumped her, because he believed there was a “better than even chance” she’d gain it all back and more. Then he proceeded to ridicule his mother and sister for their lifelong weight problems. It was like a window into how he would treat me one day if I ever gained my weight back. Needless to say, I didn’t go out with him again.

    1. 2.1
      Gabri'el

      I just read this news story from a couple of months ago about a man suing and divorcing his wife because she gave him ugly kids, and this story made me think about what you said.
      The woman had  about $ 100,000 worth of plastic surgery before she met the husband and he didn’t know about it, and from the picture she really did look like an entirely different person. I honestly do understand your reasons for not telling a guy at first until he see’s all you have to offer, which is more than just your facial appearance or your body. Many people (yes women also) don’t want to be with a person who they think may become unattractive and/or over weight…
      But as I read the story I couldn’t help to feel sorry for the woman, if you truly love someone would how she “use” to look really matter? So my point to you is, do you really want a man who would leave you for something so silly as how big you “use” to be or that you “might” gain the weight back? I personally don’t think you need to tell him at all, if it comes up, it comes up, but if he never asks… In the story you told about the handsome guy, I would have said something, he was being a horrible date, son and brother in my opinion.
      That story about the man suing his wife because he wanted attractive kids did help me understand why women didn’t like to date men under 6 feet tall, everyone wants physically attractive children and to most people that means height, facial appearance as well as body shape.

      1. 2.1.1
        Nicole

        Just as an FYI, that story was proven to be false and you can find it at Snopes.com.  It was pretty embarassing b/c a LOT of online media outlets published it.  Although I feel that the amount of plastic surgery that is the norm in many countries COULD potentially result in that outcome.  
        It’s just that in this case, the photo you saw was photoshopped.

  3. 3
    John

    The title of this linked article and blog is a bit misleading. When I read it, it assumes both people were heavy, one person lost weight and then that new dynamic created problems. I agree with Evan’s comments on why that can cause problems.
    But the article doesn’t take into account when one person starts off overweight and the other person is fit. Now if the overweight partner loses weight and is much closer in fitness level with the in shape partner, that can only be good. How in the world can that be a bad thing? Of course the article doesn’t interview 21 couples in that scenario and provide a fair ad balanced report.
    Ask any ripped guy who is in shape if his woman loses 30 lbs and rocks a bikini will cause problems. I don’t think so. And ask any woman who has a small waist and small butt if her couch potato, beer belly boyfriend hit the gym and got 6 pack abs if that would cause a problem. I think not.

    1. 3.1
      Karmic Equation

      I think most people date people who fall within their acceptable weight/height ratios. So a fit person dating a fat person typically is ok with that person being fat (ever heard of “chubby chasers”?) So if that person’s value to the fit person is that s/he is zaftig, then if that person decides to get fit, there would certainly be issues in that relationship because the fat person is now NOT the shape the fit person is attracted to.

      I think most problems occur when either the man or the woman becomes heavier than the weight that their SO’s started dating them at, particularly if one stayed fit and the other gained significantly. To some extent that happened with me and my ex-husband. I gained those “relationship pounds” but he stayed fit. But he loved me enough to accept me at my heavier weight and ultimately it was I who decided to initiate a divorce and not him, for reasons other than weight.

      In my next relationship, my partner also gained those relationship pounds and we were happy together at our new weights because we didn’t care. There were times when I would ask “aren’t I fat to you?” and he’d say, with complete sincerity, “No I think you’re perfect.”

      It depends on the relationship. When a man truly loves you, the extra pounds don’t matter UNLESS they matter to YOU and you let YOUR insecurity about those pounds affect your and his relationship (e.g., less sex because you’re self conscious; more jealousy if he stares a little too long at the in-shape waitress, etc.).

      I’m 5′ 150#. The scale says I’m obese (I don’t look it). The BMI index says I’m very unfit (true, but I’ve don’t look like what those #s tell you and I’ve started to work on my fitness) — Neither of those measurements are representative of what I look like IRL. So I can’t let the numbers dictate how I feel about myself. I let the attention of the opposite sex tell me how I should feel about myself. I attract men wherever I go. Sometimes men that I think are well out of my league.

      There’s a saying, “Age is mind over matter. If you don’t mind, it doesn’t matter.” I think this can apply to weight as well. If you’re relatively attractive to start (at least a 6+), confident, happy, radiant, accepting of men, with no insecurities, and know how to maximize your assets and minimize your faults, you’ll never be lacking in positive male attention.

      My weight has never factored into my relationships, because it never crossed my mind that it would. It has now only because I’ve realized I’m much more attracted to fit men. So fair is fair. If I want fit, I have to be fit. Thus I’m working hard to have that bikini bod by the summer.

      So ultimately, how the “fat” or “formerly fat” person feels about themselves have more to do with their ability to attract (and retain) others than whether they’re actually still fat or not, imo.

      1. 3.1.1
        Gabri'el

        <p>Karmic I love your fit for fit philosophy it’s SO TRUE! But I’ve noticed a trend online with dating in, “most” people -both men and women- are attracted to someone who has a fit body. Like Karl R said, it’s not everyone’s type, but a lot people are attracted to fit bodies. I completely agree with the BMI comments, I have noticed that a lot of men and women with bulging waist lines don’t think they are fat, but to me they are… Again that’s just my person choice, like Karmic I hate the gym but I force myself to because then waist are what I’ m attracted to. I can’t speak for everyone who is over weight, but I know a lot of men and women with just slightly bulging stomachs and waist who don’t want to date others that don’t have magazine cover bodies, but when I tells these same women I don’t want to date her because of her body (and yes I always try to avoid telling her the real reason I’m not attracted to her), then I’m wrong and shallow…<p>
        <p>I guess my question is, would it just be better to disappear after you met in person instead of telling the person the truth? I always try to make up a nice excuse and they always grill me until I tell them the truth… Then they always succeed in making me feel bad for rejecting her for her bulging or sagging waist, so a relationship that should have ended on date one, last until date 5, and again, these aren’t fat women, they just have that small bulge around the middle, which I can never really see clearly on online photos, but I just don’t understand why does it have to mean that I’m shallow, narcissistic or only about looks if I’m not attracted to her body? Why can’t it be like what Karmic and Karl said, it’s just what I’m attracted to? I’m not forcing my beliefs or desires on women, but many of them force theirs on me by saying I’m wrong and making me feel horrible for not giving her a chance just because of her bulging waist line…<p>
        <p>Just look at Hollywood, the good guy is the guy who goes after the cute fat or average built girl and the selfish jerk is the guy who goes after the girl (who is also usually shallow, mean, selfish or not to intelligent) bikini model type girl. Why can’t it be that both girls have great personalities and the guy is still a good and fair person for choosing the women with the better body?<p>

        1. Karmic Equation

          Gabri’el,
          Personally, if a man doesn’t call me after date 1, I assume he’s not interested and just move on. However, I found it really classy when one guy messaged me and simply wrote “Hi Karmic. It was nice meeting you but I don’t feel we’re a fit. I wish you the best of luck in your search.” I wasn’t into him either (he drank a Bud to wash down his breakfast on a breakfast date. Alcoholic perhaps?) – So it saved me the trouble of disappearing or saying no to him. Nevertheless, I thought he was classy to message me. So you can’t lose by sending a “I don’t feel we’re a fit” message.If a woman continues to nag at you after the “We’re not a fit” message, you should ignore her. She has issues. The only thing that wouldn’t be considered an issue would be if she sent you an “exit interview” message. You’d have to get the info from Evan as I’m not sure what such a message contains. In that case, you can own your preferences and be honest. “I’m attracted to fit women, as I stated in my profile. I think you’re a nice person, but fitness, or rather lack thereof, is one of my dealbreakers. I wish you the best of luck in your search.” So make sure you state that criteria in your profile. The nicest way to phrase it that I’ve seen is “I live a healthy and fit lifestyle and am looking for a partner with similar lifestyle commitment.” Problem solved. Most women would self-select out. 
           
          Having said that, Gabe (hope I can call you that :)) — Let’s take Evan’s teachings and turn it to men. Let’s say you’re in the 95th percentile in looks. Fit and handsome. You’re looking for the same in a woman fit and pretty, in the same 95th percentile. And let’s assume you don’t make as much money as others. And you’re not as good a communicator. *YOU* don’t meet HER criteria. How would you feel if she decided she didn’t like you because you work a 40k job and she wanted someone with a 45k job. Would you think she were shallow? Would you think how much difference does 5k really make? I’m the same man at 40k, 45k.
           
          That said, if you read “Sex at Dawn” they briefly talk about neuro-plasticity. Women have more of that. Men not so much, so give yourself a break if you can’t be attracted to any woman who even has a slight pooch. Then you might not ever want to get married or have children, because child birth does a number on a woman’s body and you may not ever again be attracted to the mother of your children. That would be so sad, don’t you think?
           
          It’s ok to be attracted to what you’re attracted to, but it’s a common stereotype that the hottest women tend to be the craziest. The other thing they tend to be is the most insecure which is the root cause of their crazy, imo. As long as you can deal with that, there will be plenty of women for you to pick from. But most hotties are neither cool nor truly confident, particularly as they start aging. So you’re going to have to live with a lot of drama. You up for that? 
           
          You can be picky, but maybe try not to be THAT picky. Have you tried and you can’t get it up unless the woman’s waist is teeny-tiny? I mean don’t knock it till you’ve tried it. 

           

  4. 4
    Kamara2u

    This is an especially relevant topic for me because I am not as thin as I should be. The thought of taking photos of myself, let alone posting them on a dating site is absolutely frightening.
     

  5. 5
    Gabri'el Alexander

    Evan I’m so glad you’re finally speaking openly about weight and dating. In both “finding the one online” and “Why he dissapeared” you never talked about how to handle arkward situations. Women unlike men when they are a little over weight know how to post dating photos from the right angle, so when you meet in person there is always the surprise. They are usually sweet, smart, and funny but I’m just not physically attracted to their bodies… no matter how cute they’re face is… Which of coarse makes me feel so horrible and shallow, but isn’t faking it worse?

  6. 6
    Gabri'el Alexander

    -Sorry for the double post Evan, darm cellphones-I once dated a girl just like the one you spoke of and we broke up for the same reasons…The exact same reasons, it was horribly and stressful. It’s even worse when you are in shape and she or he isn’t, the insecurity levels are off the charts and you can’t say anything or like the article says you are accused of being shallow and not accepting her for the way she is… So you lose either way… 
    You can slowly silently lose attraction to her as you watch her get bigger or you can say something and be told you are shallow and only about looks because you can’t love her and her body like in some holleywood movie
    Evan is there anyway

  7. 7
    J

    I am a 32 year old woman who has lost over 80 pounds since May of 2012. I’ve definitely seen positive changes within myself as a result of my continued weight loss. I’d have to say though, so far it has not been the path to true love that I thought it would be. I thought that all I would need to do to find love is lose a lot of weight, put up a great online profile and, presto! I’d find true love in no time. Well, I’ve been at this for a year and while I’ve met some good guys and had fun, I’m no closer to finding love than I was this time last year. I thought (mistakenly) that once I lost weight I’d be swarmed with date offers and men would be practically begging to meet such a great, good-looking woman like me. Not so, it seems. I do get dates, but far less than what I’d prefer. I know the men are out there because I put up a fake profile with a really hot woman’s photo. I used the same body type description, same essay, same everything. She got over 200 replies in just 24 hours. I got just shy of that in six WEEKS. It seems that even at 80 pounds lighter, I’m still not good enough. I could waste away to 110 pounds and I probably would still not get the amount of men this chick got contacting her. I guess I thought it would be easy once I lost a lot of weight. I was just kidding myself.

    1. 7.1
      Joe

      Without details it’s hard to say whether or not you’re kidding yourself.
       
      If you were 250 lb and lost 80 lb, you’re still 170 lb–still overweight by most standards (unless you’re an Amazon).  And just losing 80 lb doesn’t make you instantly attractive, even if you were only 200 lb to begin with–a person’s attractiveness isn’t only in their weight.
       
      And if you got 200 replies in six weeks you’re still ahead of most men. :-p

      1. 7.1.1
        Jeanne

        Wow, Joe.  Please offer something positive or nicely constructive. I like honesty but geez, I felt a bit of a bee sting on that one :-(

      2. 7.1.2
        Julia

        women’s weighs is very different than men’s 170 can look quite slim. I am a woman who lost 40lbs 5 years ago and have kept it off. I tell no man that I used to weigh more. I also workout (like real working out, weight-training/pilates/high intensity cardio). At 165lbs I am a size 6. Now I know that’s not model thing but most people wouldn’t say a size 6 is really overweight. Remember we have extra fat storages like breasts. At any rate, I can be a size 6, have a waist that is 11 inches smaller than my bust but I still feel like the fat girl in my mind.
        I get decent attention from men but I still hesitate when a man says he is looking for thin or physically fit.

      3. 7.1.3
        Emily

        Actually, Joe, 17o lbs. isn’t all that heavy.  At 5’6″, I’m certainly not “an Amazon” by any stretch of the imagination.   At 180 lbs, I’m a trim size 8, fit and athletic, not even slightly “overweight” by any means. 

        Men have incredibly warped, screwed-up ideas about what women “should” weigh.  Truth be told, that number on the scale doesn’t count for much.  You’d probably look at me and judge me as “petite, with a cute, firm body” — although, by your estimation, 18olb is “overweight by most standards.”

        Really, scale numbers mean very little. Body composition and muscle mass mean much, much more.  If she lost that weight with a program of good exercise and strength training, I’m willing to bet that she’s quite a slim and toned woman, just like I am.

        1. Locutus

          I’m sorry Emily, but 180 pounds at 5 foot 6 is NOT petite or slim.  If you are an athlete then you must have a LOT of muscle mass on you to be that weight at that height.  For me and most men that would be way too muscular.  But, regardless how in the world can you call yourself petite??  It is not a warped idea it is reality!!!!  Please.  You could ask all of my male friends AND female friends- they would both agree!  There is no way you are ‘fit’ at 180 pounds and 5 foot 6 unless you have the body of a female bodybuilder.
          I’m ok with thicker women, but please don’t say you are petite.  Even petite women would probably laugh at your claim!!! LOL

        2. Frimmel

          185lbs is the max weight in the women’s middleweight MMA class. It is one of the heaviest classes. This is the middleweight male MMA champ at 6’2″ and 186lbs: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Weidman
           
          This is Matt Hughes welterweight MMA champ at 5’9″ and 170lbs: http://chicagosmma.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/matt-hughes-ufc.jpg
           
          So I’m going to have to join Locutus and doubt that you’re “petite with a cute firm body.” Doesn’t petite top out at about 5’2″?
           
           
           
           

        3. Julia

          Frimmel seems to have such little understanding of women’s bodies that he posts photos of men’s bodies as a response. Men don’t have the same fat deposits on their bodies as women do, they will almost always weigh less when compared to a woman of the same size. I carry about 15lbs in my breasts for example, how many men can say that?

        4. Locutus

          Julia said “I carry about 15lbs in my breasts for example”
          God Bless you Julia!!! :)  I actually don’t like petite women.  

        5. Emily

          Well, then, Locutus, I guess I must have a lot of muscle mass. Because believe it or not, 5’6″ and 180 lbs is slim and trim enough to fit into size 6 jeans with room to spare.   And, in fact I am an athlete – many women are. Am I “overly muscled?” No, I don’t think so – all of my muscle development happened through years of competitive gymnastics, which tends to go hand-in-hand with years of flexibility training, which is why my muscles look “slim and toned” rather than “muscled and bulky.”   It’s a mistake to imagine that you are able to tell what my body looks like based on numbers.  It’s naive and foolish to put so much stock in numbers when they rarely tell the whole tale.  Nope, I’m definitely am not a bodybuilder, and I don’t have a single bit of “bulk” on me.  But, I’m certainly very “toned” and “fit.” 

          I call myself petite because that is, in fact, an accurate description of my physical appearance. And it proves how foolish you are to put such faith in scale numbers when attempting to judge a woman’s size and appearance.  “How in the world can I say it?” I can say it, because it is actually true.  

          I think it’s a bit arrogant that you’re trying to tell me that I’m “delusional” about my physical appearance based on numbers – when you, in fact, have no idea what I look like. I, on the other hand, am very well-acquainted with my physical appearance. Your incredulity stems from your blind faith in numbers.  As I said earlier, scale numbers rarely tell an accuratte story, and it’s very possible for women who are slim and toned to be “overweight.”  Like I said, try not to be so gullible and so blindly-believing in scale numbers. They simply don’t mean as much as you think they do.  

          Star Trek: The Next Generation is an excellent show and “Best of Both Worlds” was my favorite episode ever. Should’ve been a feature film!

        6. Emily

          Yeah, Frimmel, I’m gonna have to say that you don’t know what you’re talking about. Again, your incredulity that a 180-lb woman could be “slender” stems from the fact that you put too much blind faith in numbers.

          Anyway, here’s what a 5’6″ 182-lb woman actually does look like:
          http://bit.ly/1a9BZg9 

          So, that’s what professional female bodybuilders look like, you say? 

        7. Evan Marc Katz

          I’m 5’9″ 1/2, 180lbs – and I’m not slender. For what it’s worth.

        8. Locutus

          Emily,
          Most of female friends would crack up laughing at your claim to be petite.  Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the word petite.  What are your measurements- waist, bust, hips, etc.???  I’ve worked out all of my life and have always been around people who have too- both male and female.  I think I have more of an idea about fitness than you do, trust me.  I’m not putting down your body type and I’m not saying I find it unattractive, I’m just saying in no way is your body type petite!!!  It cracks me up to even hear this non-sense talk.  Even if it were 180 pounds of bodybuilder muscle mass, it still wouldn’t be a petite body type- you would be labeled athletic and muscular.  If you say that you don’t have a lot of muscle bulk, then I’m sorry there is a good deal of fat somewhere, unless you are weighing yourself with lead in your pockets!!!

        9. Locutus

          Emily,
          I just saw your posted picture.  I can’t see your whole body since it is a side pose.  From what I can see, you do have a lot of muscle mass on you- it doesn’t have to be bulky, muscle simply weighs more than fat.  Still, you don’t look anywhere close to 182 pounds in that picture.  Please post a recent picture at 182 pounds- a front shot standing up.  Lastly, even looking at that picture you posted, in no way would I call you petite.  Petite girls have a small framed body, small bone structure, and are typically on the shorter side.  

        10. Joe

          According to Wikipedia (so it should prolly be taken with a grain of salt): Gabby Reece is 6’3″ and 170 lb; Lindsey Vonn is 5’10” and 160 lb; Brandi Chastain is 5’7″ and 130 lb; Nastia Liukin is 5’3″ and 115 lb.  Athletic women, no?  Liukin is probably the only one you might be able to call petite.
           

        11. Karmic Equation

          Emily, I’m totally with you on the BMI and scale thing. If men knew what I weighed, they’d avoid me like the plague, based on my height and lbs.
           
          FWIW, “petite” usually connotes short in combination with slender. I believe the “average” height of a woman is 5’4″ so at 5’6″ you exceed the height criteria for petite. And from my side, I’m 5′ and wear size 8, so even though I’m short, I can’t be considered petite due to the size 8. I believe I would qualify once I get to size 6. My goal by the summer :)

        12. Locutus

          Karmic,
          Just to add to what you said about being petite: Yes, I agree that it is about height and weight, i.e. being on the shorter side and being slender.  However, I think it is also relevant to the bone structure – such as having a small frame and small bones.  Petite girls have thinner wrists and ankles and narrow shoulders and such.  A short girl who has big bones and broad shoulders I would NOT consider petite.  This ‘petite’ bone structure is genetic, of course, and can not be changed! 

      4. 7.1.4
        Emily

        Additionally, BMI is meaningless.  Look into how and why BMI charts were developed — it’s basically a mathematical hack designed to make large-scale recommendations for huge populations of people.  On a case-by-case basis, those BMI numbers don’t mean very much.

        It’s  just so naive to buy into the idea that a woman is “overweight” just because the BMI chart says she should be.

        Need proof that what I’m saying is really true?  Check out the “Illustrated BMI Project” on Flick here – http://bit.ly/1dSM5ki    Pictures of real-life women prove that BMI charts are bunch of nonsense.

      5. 7.1.5
        J

        Okay, well, if you’re going to make me prove myself, my Match name is fit_fun1981. Go see for yourself if I’m unattractive. Oh, but I guess I should probably tell you that I’ve actually lost about 15 more pounds since those photos were taken. And while I got around 200 replies, most of them were crap, like “Hey cutie”, “Hey sexy”, “Man, you’re so gorgeous!”. I’ve learned since then that quality matters way more than quantity. Guys, if you copy and paste the same generic message or just send stupid stuff like that, why would a woman want to contact you? And if you do send good, personalized messages and you’re still not getting good results, maybe it’s time to look in the mirror.

    2. 7.2
      Jeanne

      You know, I really feel for you. I disagree with Joe. Don’t ever think you are kidding yourself about  your new amazing fit self And don’t think of yourself in terms of pounds.  That is a tremendous accomplishment and even though I personally don’t know you, I’m so proud of you! I also lost a considerable amount of weight (more about sizes and less pounds). However, people noticed the confidence more than the weight. Buy some affordable clothes (or a few pieces like great fitting jeans) and undies that are more like the new you so you can part with the old you and can be confident And sexy!!! It does take time to part from your former appearance which many times is a mind set (I was trapped in the old me mindset for a a while). And feeling like you still look like the old you even if you don’t is common with substantial weight Loss. Work on feeling fabulous in your new fabulous body for the sake of feeling fabulous and fun. The men will come :-) 

    3. 7.3
      John

      “She got over 200 replies in just 24 hours. I got just shy of that in six WEEKS. It seems that even at 80 pounds lighter, I’m still not good enough”
      That works out to almost 5 emails a day. While not as good as your fake picture hottie, its still a decent amount.

      1. 7.3.1
        J

        Yeah, but unfortunately the emails themselves were not decent. Or the men were completely not my type. It just wasn’t as good an experience as I initially expected it to be, but I have largely come to terms with it. It is what it is.

    4. 7.4
      Nissa

      J,
      The reasons for gaining weight are manifold, but if you lose the weight and don’t deal with the issues that caused you to gain in the first place, it can create the situation you are describing. For example, a lot of people gain weight as a mental protection. They eat to avoid handling their problems, because of low self esteem, avoidance of anger, general unhappiness with life. Even if you lost 80lbs but still had those things going on, potential partners see it and make it a consideration. I can say that because I have experienced the change in how men see me (having lost weight) but when I took stock, my wardrobe had not changed, how much effort I took in the morning had not changed, my level of effort in meeting new people had not changed. The next step after losing weight was to deal with the flaws that made me less likeable, which required outside help (because most of us are not objective about ourselves). Until I did that not have the level of success I expected just from the weight loss.
      On a positive note, I found an article that describes all the easy changes a woman can do to significantly affect her level of attractiveness http://www.therulesrevisited.com/2011/09/feminine-beauty-is-highly-controllable.html, I f0und these suggestions both easy, practical and effective, with genuine intention of making this extremely basic for those who are perhaps not highly skilled in cosmetology.  I noticed a few of these suggestions made enough difference in my appearance that many of my coworkers commented on my improved appearance.

      1. 7.4.1
        J

        Thank you, Nissa. I have actually been taking steps to deal with my compulsive eating. I have gone from a size 18-20 to a size 10 in the last year and a half. I’ve gotten veneers, and I’m planning to get my skin resurfaced to get rid of old acne scars. I dress much better (because of course, I want to be noticed), I wear makeup a lot more often and I’m taking steps to get out and meet people. I started to do all these things, especially the weight loss, because I knew I would never get the kind of men I liked to be interested in dating me. Heck, I couldn’t have gotten any man interested at my former size, much less one I liked. Even guys who are fat themselves wouldn’t have wanted me, if the amount of overweight men who’ve contacted me is any indication. I knew that in order to get the kind of men I liked, I would have to make a lot of changes. Since I myself am not attracted to overweight, I can hardly blame men for not liking the same thing in me. I’m not saying I want an Adonis, but at least a guy who takes care of himself. I want to be that woman for him, too.

  8. 8
    Girl in the Midwest

    Yep, I think if one partner became a lot more attractive to the opposite sex than the other partner is to the opposite sex then there could be problems.  The more attractive partner would have more options (maybe even “better” options based on their value system), and it wouldn’t take him or her long to realize that.  It’s kind of an ugly side of humans, I guess.

  9. 9
    Anna

    ”(because how could I be attracted to my girlfriend if I also found models appealing?)” Oh Evan, Evan…
    I don’t expect people, especially men, to get it. But whether you like or not, women DON’T like when you look at other women, even those who pretend to be the ”cool girlfriend” and tell you, themselves, about the hot girl passing by. And that’s why these results, to me, aren’t surprising, confusing or painful. Instead, what confuses me is the people who act surprised when they do things like having a girlfriend who’s already beautiful but not giving her attention in favour of drooling over some random chick and then suffer the consequences, such as the girlfriend being mad. Because yeah, it’s so easy to just blame women and call that ”being insecure” when in fact it’s actually called ”men being disrespectful”. It hurts… Men are not going to change, but neither are women, and they don’t have too. We’re not suppose to accept that treatment from men, like we’re just meat and feelings don’t matter.
    Because, at the end of the day, if most women didn’t feel like I do and they were actually that confident and not insecure, why does this study show that something as small and frivolous as a number on a scale can ruin an entire relationship and ALL the work behind it? Why does it show that men looking at models affects us and that we’re not that above this whole issue, instead our relationships suffer from it? That we almost throw away all the work we head to go through to trust someone and making someone trust us because of how ”hot” or ”attractive” we are or become, according to society’s standards? 
    Men threat ”hot” women and the rest differently, and that isn’t even up for discussion. But that being the case, they shouldn’t ask us to be confident when they give us reasons to be self-conscious; they should be surprised by women acting either differently because they lost weight OR acting insecure, hurt and like we heave tremendous emotional baggage because, as much as it becomes a personal issue for women to fix, it’s caused by men, as it is a response to how they treat us. 

    1. 9.1
      Chance

      People are responsible for their own insecurities, sorry.  I mean, do you feel that you are responsible for the men that are insecure about their attractiveness to women?
       
      Didn’t think so.

    2. 9.2
      Skaramouche

      You sound as if you have had some terrible relationships.  I’m sorry.  It isn’t black and white.  I wholeheartedly agree that having your man ogle another woman in a boorish manner can be extremely hurtful but then that is probably not the man you should be with.  On the other hand, it is very possible for a man to love you and desire you while finding other women attractive.  I don’t pretend to be the cool wife…I actually am.  We can agree on women (and men) who are truly beautiful (good features, great bodies).  It doesn’t mean he loves me any less.  It doesn’t mean I don’t have insecurities about my appearance but they have nothing to do with him or with the many beautiful women out there.  I guess what I’m trying to say is, don’t expect a man to be blind to beauty.  You don’t have to be either.  There is a difference between boorish ogling and acknowledgement of hotness.  I hope you find a man who knows this difference.

      1. 9.2.1
        Nattyk

        Skaramouche- you put the point I was about to make amazingly well thanks!
        To add to your point, Anna it sounds like your having a good old fashioned rant. Perhaps a pushing bag is in order? because you sound pent up with frustration. Good for you for getting it out to some degree, although I suspect this rant online won’t be enough. 
        My two cents are this – I also love ogling at other women with my man there and not there. I am possibly a 7.5 on the out of ten hotness meter, 5’9 size 12, E cup breasts , small but nicely formed ass, long lean legs, POT belly stomach and ok ish skin. I know where I am on the food chain. I also know what I want to improve (my pot belly! it is currently 38 inches and it should be less than 35 to be healthy). I am relatively self aware of my appeal. At some point you need to stop listening to the  reports about ‘societies standards’ and the ‘beauty on the inside’ media because we are subconsciously comparing ourselves to others ALL THE TIME.  We may not like to admit it, but its the truth. We all have pros and cons, brilliant personalities, skills etc… but the first impression is the symmetry of the FACE, body shape, health and weight. Honestly people find lots of variances and different people like different things – but we all like healthy happy people. And those people exercise and eat healthy. When someone is also universally attractive AND healthy they are top of the food chain. THIS IS HOW IT IS. Accept your lot, be healthy, be interesting and accept that your man will look at those attractive and healthy women because, well they are suppose to. Just like when I say ‘phwooooar’ when a healthy, happy, attractive man passes me by. That doesn’t mean I’m about to jump ship to him though. I trust means I recognise that he is doing pretty well outwardly. Inwardly, well I wouldn’t know that until I get to know him. We all get certain cards dealt at birth and its up to us to accept what we have and make the best, because there are pros and cons for every card…..xxxx

  10. 10
    Amy dk

    Do any men like overweight women? Do all men want to days thin women? Are women fooling themselves to say it’s confidence that matters?  I am curious. My husband says all men prefer thin women. 

    1. 10.1
      Chance

      Men may prefer to look at thin women, but many men would prefer to be with a woman who possesses traits that are more important for long-term compatibility.

    2. 10.2
      Frimmel

      Most men prefer “not fat” women. Most men want neither Calista Flockhart nor Melissa McCarthy but would usually choose slender or thin. Pretty much this: http://www.therulesrevisited.com/2012/07/what-men-think-about-your-weight.html
       
      Especially number 4. So. So. So. Number 4. Most men have a sliding scale about appearance/weight something like this: not interested–I’m drunk and desperate and no one will know– attracted — would do irrational/stupid things.
       
      If you give 50 guys a list of 10 famous women of varying shapes and ages to rank from one to ten you’ll get back 50 different lists. A few will always be near the top and a few will always be near the bottom but it is likely each woman will make the top of at least one guy’s list.

  11. 11
    Henriette

    I believe that many couples get used to certain dynamics between them and it can be uncomfortable when that dynamic shifts, even if it’s in a good direction.  For example, when one partner suddenly gets a big promotion and earning a lot more money, the other person can feel “left behind” or like he/she has become some kind of “dead weight” who might be dumped for a more successful mate. 
    I think that when a big change happens for one person in a couple, it helps if BOTH can remember to put a bit of extra care into the relationship.  The person who has had the big success (whether it’s weight loss, big promotion, raise, whatever) can be sensitive to the fact that the other might be feeling a bit insecure or loser-ish and do some gentle reassuring.  And the person who hasn’t had the big success can try to acknowledge their fears while still expressing pride and encouragement in the partner’s accomplishments. 

  12. 12
    Kiki

    @ami dk
    My husband says the same thing.  

  13. 13
    Morris

    I would have to say 30lbs, depending on your starting weight, can have a huge impact on a relationship.  I try to stay healthy and fit and I fluctuate +/- 5lbs and I notice a huge difference.
     
    The issue probably comes from the benefits of losing that weight.  The confidence, energy, looking better etc.  Once you start experiencing that and it becomes a priority… well I can see if your partner doesn’t share that things might become complicated.  The one losing the weight will want the other to join in the new life style.  The other person can join on try to get the other person back to how they were.  Either way someones going to change.

    1. 13.1
      Julia

      I think misery loves company too. If your partner no longer wants to eat a 2000 calorie meal with you every friday, you are probably going to start to get upset at them.

  14. 14
    Julia

    I sort of said it above but I want to go into more detail. I lost 40lbs 5 years ago and have kept it off. I spent much of my twenties a size 14, now I am a size 6. A true hour glass figure, I have measurements of 34DDD-31-42, that’s an 11 inch waist-hip/bust ratio. I work out 5 times a week. I have strong thighs and defined arms. In my mind, I am still a fat girl. Sure, it helps to have that mindset. I still love delicious food and drink and I partake in it but fat girl mind takes over and tells me when to stop or when I need to replace meals with green smoothies.
     
    When it doesn’t help is when I compare myself to other women or think that my body is not ideal for men to be attracted to, despite the contrary. Sure I’m not for everyone but I do well. I still hesitate when I look at a man’s profile and it says he’s interested in thin or fit women, I am not a size 0 but I am certainly fit and thinner than most women (let’s be honest here) When I am naked I still wonder if a man is going to be grossed out (though they usually seem pretty preoccupied with my bosom/derriere. I will never tell a man I lost significant weight under any circumstances. That’s my secret, I am positive that men will immediately assume I will gain the weight back despite my 5 year long weight stability.
     
    Luckily, I am not a jealous person by nature so I never get mad at men for finding other women attractive, I just fear that they won’t find me attractive.

    1. 14.1
      Jeanne

      I am not a relationship expert by any stretch of the imagination but are you saying a man will not find your “toned” physique attractive because you were heavier five years ago? Not to sound silly but when in perspective, Twitter didn’t exist five years ago. No one even knew what Instagram was/is. That is how long ago five years has been! It was lightyears ago. No one cares. You work out five times a week and are worried that a man will not find your in shape enough? Please make sure that the standards you have for yourself are realistic.  Woman to woman, please find some peace in your soul and look inside for what makes your great. Stop worrying about the outside and if it doesn’t help, please seek professional guidance, or counseling. And I mean this with a sincere heart. Love yourself!!! Why not try some dating coaching from Evan if your issue is dating related? He will clear that up straight away!

      1. 14.1.1
        Julia

        I have gone to counseling, working out 5 days a week was one of the things that help me fight depression. Endorphins plus 5 hours a week to just focus on how my body feels is important to clear my mind. Most people who go through significant weight loss will experience depression and have a hard time accepting their new body. I tell myself every day that I am beautiful but the old me pops up from time to time. Its hard to empathize if you haven’t been through it.

    2. 14.2
      Chance

      I think that, logically, you have a good understanding of what is important when it comes to looks, but those insecurities can pop up from time-to-time.  Don’t worry, it happens to all of us.  Even the most confident people.  You’re spot on that weight doesn’t mean anything.  If you’re looking good, you’re looking good – it doesn’t matter if you weigh 95lbs or 250lbs.  If it makes you feel any better, I’m a total lard ass if we’re gonna go by weight hehe.  I weigh about two bills at 5’10”, but I have a 32″ waist.  Well, I’ve probably added a couple of inches over the holidays – at 31, I can’t get away with what I used to.
      As I’m sure the logical part of you knows, what’s presented as an attractive woman by the media isn’t always closely aligned with what the general public finds attractive.  Most importantly, pretty much no one is for everyone.  Most female models are 6″ and razor thin.  A lot of men don’t like really tall women, and a lot do.  A lot of men don’t like razor thin women, and some do.  There’s a niche for a lot of different looks and body types, and almost no one has a universal look.  My look certainly isn’t universal – I’m the type of guy that would make one ugly woman.  For the women that like Brad Pitt (particularly when he was young) or Tom Cruise, yeah, I’m probably not going to do to well with them.  For the women that like Vin Diesel or Jason Statham, I seem to have a lot of success with them (not saying I’m as good looking as them or anything!).  Point is that you can’t let what you see in a magazine and what some guys find attractive (that don’t fit your mold) grab ahold of those insecurities. 
      Of course, to state the obvious:  the most important things are a woman’s character and how she treats her partner.  That buys you a lot of flexibility on your physical appearance… more than most guys admit.  Not sure why, perhaps they think it will make them look weak or something.  My girlfriend has gained weight over the past year, and I don’t really care because of who she is, and if she told me the lost 100lbs before she met me, it wouldn’t bother me in the least. 

      1. 14.2.1
        Frimmel

        Pretty much agree on all points.

  15. 15
    Locutus

    Julia,
    I like the sound of your body type!!!!  Nothing wrong with curvy or a bit thick- it’s all about the shape not necessarily the size.  Plus you say you keep somewhat toned.  Many guys like different things, but most guys do not like obese girls or significantly overweight.  I like curvy women and do not like the thin runner body type at all.  Your hourglass description and measurements sound arousing to me! LOL!!  I am Italian, so I do like a thick ‘derriere’ as you like to call it.  The key is to pretend you are just as attractive as any other woman out there and be yourself.  BTW, I wish you could post a photo!! ;)  I would define myself as muscular and strong- not thin, but not fat.  I have worked out with weights for the least 13 years or so.  So, this opinion is not coming from a fat lazy guy!! LOL.

  16. 16
    Kiki

    @Julia 15
    Congratulations for your success with weight management and discipline.
    In my opinion looks are 90 per cent of a woman’s success with men. It is not fair but it is a fact.  Any woman who disregards that disregards reality. 
     

    1. 16.1
      Frimmel

      Your appearance is 90% of what gets a man’s attention. It depends 90% on you how much it is responsible for keeping it. See Chance in 16.1. I’ve known many unarguably beautiful women who were not at all attractive. While one of sexiest women I’ve known was also one of the least objectively attractive.

    2. 16.2
      Julia

      Looks get you in the door. Looks get me 5-10 messages a day online. But you’re right, its not what keeps men. I am working on vulnerability now. I am feminine and kind but its hard for me to be vulnerable. I just wish someone could tell me how!

      1. 16.2.1
        Chance

        When you say you’re working on how to be vulnerable, are you referring to a fear of being hurt?  If so, I can share with you what helped me lose that fear when I was very young.  It came with understanding, and then accepting, the reality that other people will always have the power to do things that could hurt or disappoint you.  Nothing can change that, but that’s okay.  Everyone is exposed to that, and one has to understand that it has nothing to do with him/herself.  With this understanding, it will help you brush off things that normally could hurt most people.  I know it’s easier said than done, but it’s something that will come with time if you teach yourself.  What’s that saying… 10% of life is what happens to you, 90% of life is how you react to what happens to you.
         
        The best thing about losing the fear of being hurt/disappointed is you become less guarded, which invariably makes you come off as being a warmer person, which in turn minimizes the likelihood that someone will walk away from you!  Hope that helps.
         
         

        1. Julia

          I think letting men into the more private me. I work with the default belief that men will disappear, therefor what’s the point of putting too much out there. I’m not sure if its a self-fulfilling prophecy which is why I know I need to work on it. That being said, my former weight can remain a secret. I know lots of men are always afraid of women gaining weight once in a relationship so why give them more fuel for the fire.

      2. 16.2.2
        Gabri'el

        Julia could how you feel about the weight and online dating thing be because even though you get about 5 e-mails a day they are mostly from guys that you don’t really see as being on your level or higher either career wise or physically?
        Just the other day I was complaining to a female friend how much online dating sucks (yes Evan I know what you are going to say I read both WHD and FTOOL and I know what you tell us about  that negative mindset), my friend listened then pointed out that I get more girls writing me than she or any of her female friends get written to online, but I was just complaining because none of the girls who where contacting me and writing me back, were women that I was really interested in physically or because of what they were doing and planning on doing with their lives.
        Anyway, perhaps you only feel this way about your weight because they men who you desire aren’t giving you attention and when you see them in the real world they are with skinny women and instead of you assuming that it’s because of they way these women make these guys feel about themselves, you think it’s because of her body.

        1. Julia

          Majority of men I am not interested in. I still got enough men in my range to set up dates pretty regularly. It has nothing to do with the men currently interested, it has everything to do with how I viewed myself for years. Its hard to shake.

      3. 16.2.3
        Karmic Equation

         
        Vulnerability isn’t about telling a guy your deep dark secrets. At least not in my book.Vulnerability is about trusting the other person enough that you give them the power to hurt you.Example: I’m dating my personal trainer. We started dating first, and after several dates, he convinced me to try personal training. While I can’t say I like it, it has been effective in transforming me and I’m already getting noticeable results after 8 weeks.For his program I had to get BMI measurements. Imagine letting a guy you’re sleeping with measure exactly how unfit you are. I was mortified, but it was done. He didn’t disappear. He wasn’t disgusted by my 30% BMI. He tells me he misses me even though we see each other every other day, for training. We date maybe once or twice a week.I gave him the power to hurt me with rejection. And he didn’t. Once he signed me up to a contract for the fitness training, he could have simply changed our relationship to business-only, he didn’t. I was vulnerable and he could have hurt me. But he didn’t.
         
        Waitresses flirt with him; he flirted with them while we were having breakfast. They were funny. I giggled the entire time and was part of the experience instead of giving him killing glares. He was in line at a department store to buy a jacket. The woman behind him starts flirting with him. I wasn’t in line with him so the woman thought he was alone. They had a smiley-flirty conversation. When we were in his car driving to the store he was mentioning how difficult it was for him to meet chicks at bars (men open up to me like that, and I don’t get mad, and we’re only casually dating so this is ok convo) — so when we were leaving the store I teased him and said “Hmmm… You don’t need to go to bars to pick up chicks, they try to pick you up at Macy’s! What are you complaining about?” Then he clued me in to their conversation. Not exactly vulnerable per se, but I acknowledged something that would have made other chicks angry and complimented him in the process. It was all truth. The experience became positive for us both because I was accepting that this would happen. He’s attractive. If I don’t want waitresses or women-in-line flirting with the guy I’m dating, I need to date ugly men. That is the trade off.
         
        This acceptance of him and trusting him not to hurt me builds a connection. So being vulnerable, to me, is not necessary WHAT you talk about (e.g., not deep dark secrets) but how you talk and behave when things get a little odd(? for lack of better term). Men are really good at sensing that you trust that he’s a good guy not out to hurt you. They all want to be trusted like that. And when you trust him like that they often go out of their way to prove to you they deserve that trust. They don’t always succeed. But I give brownie points for trying :)
         
        These are little things. We’re at the beginning of what could be a relationship or what could just devolve into a friendship.  I’m going to trust that whichever way he decides he wants to take this, he’ll handle it well and not hurting me (too much) will be at the top of his list if he decides he doesn’t want to escalate. That trust is what will bond him to me. My trust in him is what makes me vulnerable. If our relationship does escalate, that foundation of trust built of little things will help us get through the big things.
         
        So vulnerability isn’t about being vulnerable. It’s giving him your trust that makes you vulnerable. You see what I mean?

         

        1. Gabri'el

          Karmic how does a guy know if his girl is really okay with his honesty or if she is just outwardly smiling and nodding and inwardly feeling hurt and angry? You are a real life “cool and confident girlfriend” most women I’ve dated will later on let me know my comment hurt them weeks or months later once the relationship is exclusive instead of telling me the moment  it happened.
          After this happens once of twice, I just start clamming up and walking on egg shells, because how can I be honest with someone who isn’t honest with me about how they feel until weeks after the conversation, by then I don’t even remember fully what I said or the context in which I said it

        2. Karmic Equation

          Gabri’el
           
          Thanks for the compliment :)
           
          I think the solution to your problem is pretty simple:
           
          When your gf tells you something you said 3 months ago hurt her, take it at face value and not personally and say with sincerity, “Baby, I’m sorry. I didn’t know. Next time, tell me when it happens so that we can address is right away instead of it eating at you like this, okay?” Then give her a big hug and a kiss.
           
          Then the ball’s in her court the next time. She may or may not continue doing this again (telling you months after the fact) — If she does and you’re walking on eggshells, tell her that. “When you tell me months after the fact that something I said bothered you, I don’t know what to do. What is it that you want me to do with this information months after the fact?” And then see what she says. And try to arrive at a compromise from there that works for both of you.

        3. Karmic Equation

          Thank you, Evan. (I accidentally thanked you in the wrong post!)

        4. Julia

          I trust men, least jealous person on earth. That doesn’t feel like vulnerability to me.

        5. Chance

          It’s a matter of confidence.  I think someone can be a generally trusting person and still not be vulnerable if  that person doesn’t have the inner confidence to allow themselves to be vulnerable.  These people remain guarded and they don’t allow others to be in a position to hurt them because it could strike at their core insecurities.  It’s a pretty common defense mechanism, actually.  I know it’s easier said than done, but one has to learn to be comfortable enough with his/herself to open up and allow others to be in a position where they could potentially hurt them.  
           
          I know it sounds odd, but the most confident people are the best at allowing themselves to be vulnerable.  This is because they know that, while others can do things that will hurt them, it has no impact on their sense of self-worth.  I’m going to go out on a limb and say that this might be what Karmic Equation was getting at.

        6. Karmic Equation

          Chance,
           
          I love it when you clarify my statements and say them so much better than I can say them myself.
          “This is because they know that, while others can do things that will hurt them, it has no impact on their sense of self-worth. ”
           
          Yes. That is it exactly. I’m authentic with men. In a relationship, I can be a blondie (sorry blonde ladies, please don’t be offended) — I’ve done and said really silly things. My ex-hubby used to call me blondie occassionally. I’m Asian. That’s why it’s funny. I can be bossy. And as you all know, I’m very direct. I can’t change any of that and I don’t try. I’ll play in a pool tournament where I’m the absolute worst player, and trust that men will be supportive instead of dismissive. It helps that I dress to distract to help them get with the program. lol — In all instances, I trust men to be nice and kind to me and they are. There was even one guy who was a bit of a jerk the first time I met him and the second time he went out of his way to give me pointers. Because I didn’t react to his jerkiness.
           
          Ladies, most men are good people. Even the players (a la Tom10). As long as you see men as people first and not as M-E-N that frustrating human species, relationships with them, from friends to FWBs to committed LTRs, are easy. As long as you keep your expectations aligned with reality.

  17. 17
    Chance

    Sorry, Evan.  Still trying to learn how the spacing works.  If you wouldn’t mind posting this one instead of the one before, I would appreciate it.  Thanks.
     
     
    Swing and a miss, Kiki.  What you are saying simply isn’t true.  There are many women in the world who aren’t considered conventionally attractive that have quality partners, and there are attractive women that have trouble finding a quality partner.  What you are saying implies that men are more shallow than they actually are, and therefore, conveniently places blame on men’s supposed superficiality for a woman who struggles to attract men.
     
    What you are trying to say amounts to the female equivalent of a man complaining that women don’t like nice guys.  
     
    It is also worth noting that many men aren’t very good at articulating what they find attractive in a woman.  If a woman has good character, positive personality traits, and makes a man feel good around her, men tend to find her to be more physically attractive.  However, many men can’t really pinpoint these characteristics as what is driving the attraction.  Rather, they merely see her as being hotter.  Conversely, I work with a woman who is very attractive from a purely physical standpoint, but she is a miserable person who isn’t very likable.  As such, my co-workers find her to be “ugly” and “disgusting”, which couldn’t be further from the truth if we are only talking about looks.
     

  18. 18
    Kiki

    Chance, 
    this is one more topic where we do not agree. 
    I am lucky to be considered very attractive, and I also have education from a top school, and I have an interesting and high paying job.
    I am also married and have two beautiful kids.
    I have no complaints against men. The men in my life have been nice and chivalrous. So, I am telling you from my heart – looks are tremendously important for a woman to attract a man.  A girl who exercises 5 times a week is doing the BEST thing for her health and for success with men.  
     
     

    1. 18.1
      Karmic Equation

       
      Ahh Kiki. You and I agree on many things (I don’t think we’ve ever disagreed) — so this is going to be the first. Alas.
       
      The fact that you’re an attractive woman skews you to believe attractiveness is the major factor in attracting a man. Therefore, you’re going to hold onto that belief because if you let it go, where does that leave you? I don’t say this to be mean, but rather as a logical question. I imagine you’re the kind of attractive woman who was a cheerleader in her high school. Who could have been prom queen. Contrast that to me, always a little chunky in HS. Didn’t even get asked to either prom. Nay, I didn’t even have ONE date in HS, never mind a prom date.
       
      What this means is that male attention was yours from the beginning. It was your due as homage to your attractiveness. What that also means is that you didn’t have to develop your inner beauty or confidence. However, from your writings, it’s apparent that you HAVE developed that as well, but you don’t give that much value, because YOU value your attractiveness more than your inner beauty. And to some extent I suspect, your OUTWARD beauty is easier for you to upkeep than to continue to develop your inner beauty. And the truth is for a lot of men, as long as you’re not a bitch (and sometimes even when you are) as long as you’re beautiful little else matters.
       
      Now contrast that to always-been-a-little-chunky-never-had-a-date-in-high-school-me. I had to develop my inner beauty because I had no choice. To get any male attention I couldn’t be a bitch. I couldn’t be insecure. I couldn’t allow myself to be crazy, cuz I wasn’t hot enough to get away with any of that. But having developed that core of inner beauty – kindness, compassion, acceptance – and ruthlessly eradicating my insecurities, I became a confident woman. Whenever I wanted a good man for a relationship, there he was. More attractive than what my own looks warranted. 
       
      As I grew older I was more able to get my outward beauty to match my inward beauty. Understanding how to apply makeup, dressing to maximize my assets and minimizing my negatives (I have legs that rival Bettry Grable but I’m just a tad thick-waisted) — and now at age 46, I’ve attracted more attractive men — and good men btw, because I also developed a good picker — (8’s and 9’s) than I ever did when I was 26. Now that I’m working on my bikini bod, I’m confident that I’ll be able to attract those 10’s also. And because I have the inner beauty and confidence, I’m pretty sure I can keep them too, if they’re worth keeping.
       
      Once you pass a man’s minimum threshold of attractiveness (i.e., once they decide you’re attractive enough to sleep with) — what keeps them around is not that you’re attractive enough to sleep with. That only works for the short-term. In the long-term you have to be a good person to be around. They have to feel good when they’re around you (which you do Kiki, but I have to say, by the words you choose to express your relationship with your husband, it sounds as if you deify your husband, which I don’t feel is a good idea, but if it works for your and him, who am I tell you otherwise). And your inner beauty is what will bind him to you and blind him to some of your faults, visual or emotional. While outward beauty is bound to fade with age, inward beauty withstands the test of time. When I’m 60, Kiki, I’ll still feel confident that I can attract men. But will you, if you believe that beauty is the be-all and end-all of attractiveness?
       
      So I agree with Chance and Julia. Outward beauty gets you in the door. Outward beauty gets you what you want. But to KEEP what you want, outward beauty is not enough. 

       

      1. 18.1.1
        Kiki

        Karmic dear,
        at 60 I will be still married to the same deity (lol) and you will have a harem of 40 year old personal trainers :-)

        1. Karmic Equation

          And what’s wrong with that? ;-)
           
          A girl can hope, right? lmao

  19. 20
    Julia

    No woman who is 5’6 is technically petite. I think that gallery proves just what has been said, that physical weight is no indicator of how a woman looks. I see lots of different bodies. Some look very average and more slender, some look overweight.

    1. 20.1
      Frimmel

      I don’t think anyone was disputing that. I was more pointing out that 5’6″ and 180lbs is in no way petite. I was also trying to point out that many men are going to have some basis of comparison when they hear a given weight. Men who hit the gym or follow sports where weight is frequently given in particular. For the women in my link in number 19 10lbs either way isn’t much going to matter to the sorts of men who find those women attractive.
       
      But more related to the article if one of those women were to lose 30lbs or 40lbs that has the potential to create friction depending on the people involved.

      1. 20.1.1
        Julia

        If the partner loses 30 to 40 lbs. This wasn’t gender exclusive. So if the husband loses weight there are the same feelings.

    2. 20.2
      Gabri'el

      Yes but with all this body talk we can’t forget facial appearance, just because a person is skinny or has a average body doesn’t make their face attractive, but most people who are kinda attractive just big, once they lose the weight, look even better and that is what causes the friction the article is talking about, you would feel insecure that your partner would leave you for someone better looking 

      1. 20.2.1
        Karmic Equation

        Agree!

  20. 21
    Karl R

    The article said:
    “The thinner partners began nagging their significant others to hit the gym.”
     
    Nagging your significant other (about anything) is going to cause stress in the relationship. Even if you take insecurity completely out of the picture, getting nagged gets annoying very, very quickly.
     
    Amy dk asked: (#10)
    “Do any men like overweight women? Do all men want to days thin women? Are women fooling themselves to say it’s confidence that matters?  I am curious. My husband says all men prefer thin women.”
     
    Your husband, and Kiki’s husband (#12) prefer thin women. Their statement is true for them, and for some other men.
     
    Almost everyone prefers confidence. Confidence is huge. Confidence plays less role in online dating, because it’s harder to see confidence in a photograph. But even in online dating, confidence will help turn first dates into second dates.
     
    Everyone (men and women) has physical preferences. But these preferences don’t necessarily relate to “thin”. For example, some men really like large breasts or large butts. If a man like large breasts, he’s going to be interested in the women who have large breasts (and they’re typically not the thin women).
     
    Another example:
    I prefer women who are within a certain  range of waist/hip ratios. That doesn’t necessarily correspond to any particular height/weight ratio. My wife’s weight has increased since we started dating. Her waist has gotten larger, but her hips have gotten larger too. The ratio has remained about the same. No problem.
     
    There are thin women who have a great waist/hip ratio. There are much heavier women who have a great waist/hip ratio. There are flat-chested women and large-breasted women who have a great waist/hip ratio. (I don’t like straight cut dresses because they make women look like their waists and hips are the same size. I don’t like corsets because they skew the waist/hip ratio too far in the other direction.)
     
    Another example:
    My coworker is 6’2″. She’s not thin like a model. She’s not curvy like an hourglass. She’s broad-shouldered and thick-waisted. But her husband prefers tall women, and she’s tall.
     
    There are all sorts of preferences. Some men prefer obese. Some men prefer old. (There’s a market for BBW porn and Granny porn, because there are men who pay to see it.)
     
    Your husbands speak for themselves. Men (and women) have preferences. But those preferences are not unanimous.
     
    Kiki said: (#16)
    “In my opinion looks are 90 per cent of a woman’s success with men.”
     
    Frimmel (#16.1) and Julia (#16.2) are correct.
     
    Looks will help get your foot in the door. If you’re doing online dating, looks may be 90% (or more) of getting your foot in the door. When you’re out in the real world, other factors (like confidence) are going to play a much larger role.
     
    Chance said: (#14.2)
    “to state the obvious:  the most important things are a woman’s character and how she treats her partner.  That buys you a lot of flexibility on your physical appearance… more than most guys admit.”
     
    That’s true. I’ve never broken up with a woman because of her looks. I’ve generally broken up with women because of the way they made me feel, because they were difficult to get along with, or because of their character.
     
    I remember the best looking woman I ever dated. I broke up with her after the first date. I would have broken up with her during the first date, but I didn’t want to be rude.
     
    Julia said: (#14)
    “I’m not for everyone but I do well.”
     
    You’re doing better than most people, and far better than you need to. I initially gained some confidence in my dating when I came to the following realization: “I’m not for most women, but I am some women’s type. And that’s doing well enough.”
     
    Julia said: (#14)
    “When I am naked I still wonder if a man is going to be grossed out (though they usually seem pretty preoccupied with my bosom/derriere.”
     
    You know how women complain about men undressing them with their eyes? There is one benefit to that trait. Men already have a good guess about how you’ll look naked. Therefore, he’s just happy that he’s getting an unobstructed view of your bosom/derriere.
     
    Anna said: (#9)
    “whether you like or not, women DON’T like when you look at other women, even those who pretend to be the ‘cool girlfriend'”
    “Because yeah, it’s so easy to just blame women and call that ‘being insecure’ when in fact it’s actually called ‘men being disrespectful’.”
     
    I agree with Skaramouche (#9.2). Regardless of whether you’re a man or a woman, it’s insecurity that makes you upset. I expect my wife to enjoy looking at attractive men. She’s married, not blind.
     
    My wife and also I like social dancing. When we go dancing, we spend most of our time dancing with other people.
     
    When we walked into the dance party on Saturday night, I saw one of my wife’s favorite dance partners. He’s a better dancer than me. He’s probably a couple years younger than me. He’s a good looking guy. He’s a very personable guy. My wife prefers dancing with him more than she does with me.
     
    I was happy to see him there. My wife was going to dance with him several times (which makes her happy). When my wife enjoys herself, she wants to stay out later (and I get to dance longer). And when she enjoys herself, the car ride home is a lot more pleasant.
     
    There’s no reason for me to feel insecure. My wife may prefer dancing with him, but she loves being married to me.
     
    As always, it’s possible to take anything to extremes. If a man stares at a woman’s body, that’s rude (even if he’s unattached). But it’s normal for men and women to look at people they find attractive. Normal, secure people don’t have an issue with that.

  21. 22
    Kiki

    Confidence and  vulnerability? Clearly different people have different things in mind when they use these words. With regards to looks, you know the saying that beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.  From this blog I see there is also a big diffence in opinion as to what is thin, what is petite, etc. , and I am sure each one of you has your own concept of what you see as beautiful. For those of you who are happily partnered – you probably perceive your partner as beatiful, and even as setting a standard for what you say you find universally attractive.  This is very heart-warming, but not particularly useful. If you are a single woman, looking to find a boyfriend/husband, the meaningful approach is to concentrate on becoming attractive to many still unpartnered people, in order to statistically improve your chances.  How you improve your looks is pretty straightforward exercise; how to improve your confidence and vulnerability if you do not improve your looks? I guess this is where dating coaches have a niche, don’t they :-)? But to my mind, an hour at the gym is better spent than an hour reading self-help books.
    Some people think that good character and willingness to make a man feel good compensate for being overweight or ugly in the face.  Might be true, to an extent.  But when you have a physical problem – why not address the physical problem, why  look to compensate in another area? This is like fixing your water system when you in fact have no electricity at home.  Fix both if you are in a repairs mood, but do not disregard the actual problem!
    I am 178 cm, 68 kg, exercise 4-5 times a week, and I  look athletic rather than thin.  During my two pregnancies I put on 24 and 18 kg respectively. I then lost the weight by exercise and limiting portions, it took 5 months after the first pregnancy and 18 months after the second. It was much, much more difficult the second time around, because I was already 35, with two small kids. But I knew that it was important for me, for my health, for the energy levels I have for my kids, and for my husband in order for him to have again the woman he originally married, and not a much fatter version of herself! Thinking about it, I can not at all imagive what level of husband pleasing I would need to do in order for him to disregard 20 kg additional weight!
    Looks matter much more than getting you in the door. The physical appearance of a woman or man are usually a very good indicator of their health, energy level, life style, discipline, and the importance they attribute to the way they are perceived by other people.
    The consistency with which you  look after yourself, maintaing a healthy weight, grooming yourself, fighting the effects of stress and aging, is very important to continue being attractive to your partner/spouse.  It is also important for attracting the attention of random people from the opposite sex, for your partner to see that there is competition :-).
    I wish a happy and fit new year to all of you!
     
     

    1. 22.1
      Karmic Equation

      Well said Kiki. I agree completely.
       
      I would only add that if BOTH parties in the relationship gain those relationship pounds then there should be no problem. If there is the person with the problem (e.g., he’s 20 #s heavier but wants HER to lose 20#s not him) — then that is a problem. But I don’t think this happens often.
      Usually, one person gets heavier and the other doesn’t, that can be problemmatic.
       
      It depends on the relationship. However, I will say that staying attractive keeps the other partner on his/her toes and helps you remain the “prize” in his/her eyes, which is ultimately what you need to do to ensure the relationship doesn’t stagnate.

    2. 22.2
      Gabri'el

      Kiki, I agree completely, and thank you for finally saying that it’s not a good partner who just lets you get unhealthy and doesn’t care if your looks deteriorate, a good partner is one who accepts it because they love you. I can’t remember who it was that said “why do people once they get into a relationship stop doing the things that caused their partner to be attracted to them in the first place?”… of coarse I agree with Karmic about doing this in a way that doesn’t hurt the person who is allowing themselves to be vulnerable before you, only upon a strong foundation can trust weather the storm of a partner telling you they are losing their attraction for you because of your weight.
       
       
      Kiki, I’m glad you are the one who volunteered to lose the weight after your pregnancy because from what I’ve seen and read on this forum (I come here to see how women think and feel about issues), most women would lynch a man who says his wife isn’t “as” attractive to him because she gained weight having HIS child, I can’t even comprehend that level of honestly with a woman, your husband sounds lucky. 
       
       
      Most men I see just lie to their wives and tell them her weight doesn’t matter, she believes him and never does anything about her weight, and their marriage slowly grows boring in the bedroom. The sad thing is, women do the same thing, lying, telling her husband his weight doesn’t matter, but at least from what I’ve seen women will put up more of a effort to not let his weight gain affect the relationship… I’m not talking about obesity, I’m talking about moderate weight gain.
       
       
       

  22. 23
    SparklingEmerald

    Funny – When I gained weight, my x-husband never said it bothered him, but it bothered ME.  I joined weight watchers and lost 42 lbs (I have gained back 10, but I still look good).  My x tried to sabotage my weight loss efforts.  He would bring home fattening foods and offer to share it with me. He would complain if I bought a low fat version of something, so I would buy the low fat version for me, the regular version for him, then he would eat all my low fat version, leaving nothing but the regular for me.   I asked him to please buy his own cookies, chips, ice cream and keep them out of my sight as much as reasonably possible, but he would NEVER put his snack food back in the pantry, left his fattening food EVERYWHERE.  He’d eat in bed CONSTANTLY.  I couldn’t go anywhere in the house without seeing cookies on the counter, being offered a creme puff for dessert, or even read a book in bed at night without hearing the munch, crunch, slop & slurp of him eating  junk food in bed.  Late one night, I even found a half eaten sub sandwich on the bathroom vanity as I was washing up for bed.  GROSS !  ( I complained to him about that, and no, I did not use some cutsey-boo-boo, feminine, flirty voice tone and a wink) and his angry response made me fear for my physical safety.  (I really thought he was going to smack me)  When I was getting very close to my weight loss goal, he told me I was getting “too skinny”.  I was even thinner when he married me, so really, I didn’t get that.   I really had the impression he wanted to keep me plump for some reason.  I just didn’t get it !  At one point, he did express delight that I got my figure back, but for the most part he was very negative about my efforts and seemed to work over time to undermine them.
    Maybe on some level, he was trying to keep me fat, since he was planning on divorcing me when our son was grown, and wanted to have an extra excuse.  Maybe he’s just crazy or maybe I’m just over thinking.
    However, the most important thing is that NOW, I am at a healthy & reasonably attractive weight AND I am now divorced !

  23. 24
    Kiki

    Karmic, Gabriel,
    It makes me very happy that you share my opinion :-). Not everybody thinks like that, and talking about sabotage, my own mother has been the worst enemy to my weight loss after the pregnancies.
    She is kind of plump (she gets away with it because she has an exceptionally pretty face) and she is also a heavy smoker. Never exercised, never dieted. She would alsways bring sweets and fattening foods when visiting, and she would say, oh, why do you have to exercise, you look so good for a woman with 2 kids (thanks, but no thanks, I want to look like a woman before she has had kids). She would be upset  when I would not eat the food she cooks for me because I consider it unhealthy.  She never liked my husband too much, and she would be mad at him for “forcing me to lose weight” which in fact he never did.
    I am saying this, because I am absolutely positive that my mother is the person who loves me most in the world. Now that I am 40 years old, however, this is completely irrelevant as to what is good for my health and for my attractiveness.
    As for my husband and the men around me – I am a careful observer of reactions, I do not need to be told. My husband apparently likes me best at my thinnest; now that we have been together for 17 years, I can swear that his sexual desire for me is reversely correlated with my weight.
    My general observation about what men find attractive is this – a thin body with big boobs (nature has not intended us women to be this way, but that is another story). I had men clearly ogle at me blatantly and had an exceptionally high number of men hit on me in the first trimesters of my pregnancies, before I had put on any new weight, but when my breasts were turning huge.  I now understand why the plastic surgery industry is so big :-).
    Karmic,
    I was thinking about what you say that if both partners pack on the pounds, it is not a problem. I am not sure this is true, I actually think it is a much bigger problem if the woman becomes fat/stops taking care of her looks. Most fat guys I know insist on being with slim women, irrespective of their own weight.  Cést la vie.

    1. 24.1
      Chance

      Kiki, I can agree with you that looking your best certainly increases your odds.  We’re on the same page as far as that is concerned.  However, I still have to respectfully disagree with your original statement that  90% of a woman’s success in dating depends on her looks.  That statement pretty much implies that nothing else matters.  Most middle-aged men and women are not all that good-looking, yet many have achieved success in dating and relationships.  Look at the women in the testimonials on EMK’s home page, for example.  Many of them are not especially attractive.  They’re just normal-looking people like most of us, but each of them has their own success story.

      1. 24.1.1
        Gabri'el

        Chance, I was asked to model a couple of times and I’ve dated a couple of local magazine models, so I know that is takes a lot of courage to put yourself before thousands of people and have them critique or scrutinize your facial appearance and body, hearing someone say something negative about you logically, you know it isn’t personal, but depending on the context it can still sting, even though you know it comes with the territory.
         
        The women who allowed Evan to place their pictures on his site, should be applauded for their courage, because their pictures aren’t up for thousands to see, but millions, and this isn’t a modeling agency but a dating site for real people, though I respect your right to state your opinion, I feel that you were wrong to make the statement “Many of them are not especially attractive”, from reading your post I know you intention wasn’t to insult these women, I just hope you are more conscious of statements you make in the future, because remember, THOSE WOMEN READ THIS BLOG ALSO 

        1. Chance

          There is nothing wrong with the women in the testimonials.  Just because someone isn’t especially (or exceptionally) attractive doesn’t mean that they aren’t attractive.  I don’t consider myself to be especially attractive.  I was trying to point out that these women look like the women in their 40s-60s that you see everyday, and they’ve had success without having to look like a supermodel.  At any rate, you make a good point, and point taken.

    2. 24.2
      Karmic Equation

      ” Most fat guys I know insist on being with slim women, irrespective of their own weight.”
       
      And I would call those guys hypocrites. I actually had a date with one. On OKC he had answered a question that “Even slightly overweight is a deal-breaker.” So I expected the fit man I saw in his photographs. Guess what, not only did he have a slight paunch (I was expecting flat abs. Clothed it was clear he did not have flat abs) — and his hair was TOTALLY GREY whereas in NONE of his pix was he grey. He had a nice head of dark hair. Those pix must have been from 5-8 years ago, unless he went grey overnight.
       
      Overall, not a bad guy. But I felt deceived. I had selected “Average” as my body type, so didn’t lie about my fitness level. I was relieved he didn’t call me for date 2. I was totally ok with that since I wasn’t interested in a guy who so blatantly lied with his pictures and hypocritical about his own weight level. One can ask for fit if one is fit himself. But if he’s overweight himself and then answers that overweight is not sexy…how self-deluded is he? Really??

  24. 25
    Kiki

    Chance,
    I heard you the first time around :-).
    At that time, your argument against my statement was that this is not true, because if it were, it would mean I consider men very shallow and I am bitter against them. 
    This time around, your argument against the importance of looks is that there are average looking middle aged women (by the way, I think all women  who appear in the pictures on the site are much better than average), who, after working with a professional dating coach (which means spending a very significant amount of money, effort, time), finally managed to find love. I would say, your argument is in fact supportive, that if one is disadvantaged in the looks/age department, they need to make a MAJOR additional effort to find love.
    If the 90% figure bothers you so much, I would respectfully agree to a qualitative rather than a quantitative statement: the looks of a woman tremendously outweight the importance of her other qualities when it comes to her attractiveness for the opposite sex.  Other qualities (social competence, kindness, whatever you like) matter too, but they come after, and with much lighter weight. 
     

    1. 25.1
      Chance

      “At that time, your argument against my statement was that this is not true, because if it were, it would mean I consider men very shallow and I am bitter against them.
       
      I did not say that you were bitter against men.  I am fully aware that you’re married.  In my original statement, I said that claiming that men only care about looks conveniently places blame back on men if a woman is struggling to attract a partner.  This isn’t the first time you have claimed that I said something about you that I didn’t say.  I believe you said somewhere that English isn’t your first language.  However, you write well – so I can’t tell if your misinterpretation is genuine or intentional.  :-)
       
      “This time around, your argument against the importance of looks is that there are average looking middle aged women (by the way, I think all women  who appear in the pictures on the site are much better than average), who, after working with a professional dating coach (which means spending a very significant amount of money, effort, time), finally managed to find love. I would say, your argument is in fact supportive, that if one is disadvantaged in the looks/age department, they need to make a MAJOR additional effort to find love.”
       
      Actually, if these women are all much better than average in the looks category (as you claim), and they still need a dating coach to find love, then that would be supportive of the argument that there was something else other than looks that was keeping them from finding a quality partner, no? :-)
       
      …and because I just can’t resist:
      “Most fat guys I know insist on being with slim women, irrespective of their own weight.”
       
      If this were true, there would a lot more single people in the world. :-)

      1. 25.1.1
        Kiki

        Chance,
        Maybe we are lost in translation, so bear with me for one final effort.
        “What you are saying implies that men are more shallow than they actually are, and therefore, conveniently places blame on men’s supposed superficiality for a woman who struggles to attract men.”
        My problems with this are the following:
        1. I never implied that men are shallow.  You implied this. 
        2. I never placed any blame with men. You implied this again.
        3. You implied that I am a woman who struggles to attract men, in the end of the sentence.  Let me explain in more detail:  there are specific language forms (which exist in all languages) in which insults are masked as fact statements (e.g. “You are acting stupid” instead of ” You are stupid”).  So when you are saying  “Kiki, you are talking like someone, who thinks men are shallow and who is not successful with men”, this is pretty much equal to “Kiki, you think men are shallow, and you are wrongly placing the blame for your failures with men on men”.  All three implied statements are not true in my case, and they are not a valid proof of your position. 
        I think I have seen this type of language structure repeatedly in your posts, so yes, you are correct that this has been more than once that I hear something different than what you say.  Probably we are both guilty of the same offence, so next time around I will bear this in mind, in reading your post.
        On the second point, about the women in the success stories section, using this example was bad taste on your part (as Gabriel already noted).  Taking up on it was bad taste on my part as well, so I suggest we take our words back, before we further insult anyone.  Looks are a very very sensitive topic :-).
        And, to your last point, because I also can not resist :-).
        I do in fact beleive that the discrepancy between a person’s “wish list” and how he/she meets the requirements in this same list, explains a lot of the singlehood (there is no such a word in English, is there? :-)) in the world.  How about that?
         

        1. Karmic Equation

          “I do in fact beleive that the discrepancy between a person’s “wish list” and how he/she meets the requirements in this same list, explains a lot of the singlehood (there is no such a word in English, is there? :-)) in the world.”
           
          Absolutely agree!
           
          However, someone can BE smart and ACT stupidly or THINK stupidly. Some qualities are pervasive and some qualities are snapshots in time.
           
          So when I read Chance’s statements like that, “Kiki, you’re thinking like a woman who isn’t successful with men” I actually interpret it to “Kiki, you’re smart enough to know better, why would you think like that?”
           
          Maybe that’s how I’ve evolved to dealing with criticism. I automatically spin most criticism into something that I can control as opposed to as someone dissing on me. The men on my pool team often tell me what I could have done better when I miss a shot or play a ball wrong. I could interpret that to mean “Karmic, you need a lot of help. You don’t know what you’re doing.” Or I can (and do) interpret it as “Karmic, you’re good enough to execute a shot this way instead of that way. And you’re smart enough to be able to see how you could have played that ball differently.” I wonder if that’s the key to happiness? Maybe I need to post this tidbit into the Criticism thread. lol

  25. 26
    Locutus

    Kiki,
    I have to offer the counterpoint- at least for me.  Looks might first attract me to someone- especially someone online who I never met before.  But the person can range from just slightly cute to utterly gorgeous.  Looks count a lot, however, they certainly do not count for 90%!!!  I would say 40% in my book while personality counts 50% and 10% other things.  If I meet a hot woman and she has even the slightest bit of arrogance about herself or she is all high on herself or thinks she is a princess……she is history!!!!  Nothing turns me off more.  I wholeheartedly disagree with your statement that “the looks of a woman tremendously outweigh the importance of her other qualities when it comes to her attractiveness for the opposite sex. ”  No way, not even close!!!!

  26. 27
    Kiki

    Locutus,
    I see what you mean. I mean something else though. What I have in mind is being attactive/successful with men in general, not the ability to attract one particular man. No one is universally atteactive to every one. I mean, when a woman is very pretty, for each Locutus who is turned off by her princess attitude, there will be 9 guys who will put up with her crap. 

    1. 27.1
      tamara

      Hi Kiki,
      I really don’t think think looks count for even close to 90% honestly. When I was 19-21, I worked as a cocktail waitress in a few bars/lounges frequented by an older successful crowd. Naturally as a beautiful young girl, I was constantly asked out and always had my pick of dates. BUT they’d either stop contacting me after several dates or they’d continue asking me out but never get really serious. Very few of them got serious. I think it’s cos I’d automatically sleep with a guy soon after the 3rd date before he’d gotten committed, or maybe I was too moody and difficult.
       
      Now I’m in my mid-20s, (still young but have seen male comments on this blog about how women have less value at 25 than 18 or 20), less fresh-faced. Funny how many of us never fully appreciate our teenage beauty and were always dieting, but that’s another story. If looks were really so v impt, I should be having less success with men. Except now I still have attractive successful men who ask me out, and now they get serious and don’t disappear. I had no proposals in my early 20s (despite a job where i met so many guys), but I had 2 proposals last year. And I think I know why. My long-term male friends have told me I’m much more emotionally mature, and I also know I’ve become kinder, less selfish, more positive.
      So definitely, looks get u in the door, like what many have said. But men with options are probably not gonna seriously commit to women who are beautiful but have a bad personality. In my experience they will pick a woman who’s abit less pretty but with good character–and really isn’t that encouraging? :)

  27. 28
    Locutus

    Kiki, 
    I disagree.  It’s not just 1 out of 10 guys who will be put off!  If we’re talking looking at her from a viewpoint of being his girlfriend then probably 6 or 7 out of those 10 guys will not accept her attitude.  The other 3 or 4 are probably cocky and arrogant themselves.  If we’re talking looking from a viewpoint of whether they would just have casual sex with her, but nothing more, then the number certainly goes up- maybe only  3 guys will not accept her attitude regardless and 7 would still have sex with her.  BUT, do you want those guys who either only want you for sex or are cocky and arrogant themselves???  In any case, I will wouldn’t place the number at something like 90%!!!  Maybe 70% if just for sex, and probably more like 30% if looking to be in a relationship.  I think Karmic is right in her response to you about your viewpoint of men being skewed because so many men chase very attractive girls.  

    1. 28.1
      Chance

      I agree with Locutus.  While very attractive women (who have undesirable personality traits) can be fun to mess around with, no self-respecting man will keep her around as a girlfriend.

  28. 29
    Gabri'el

    I have a question for Chance and Locutus (is that name a star trek reference?): “If you had two women, both had great personalities and treated you well, made you smile, and you genuinely enjoyed both of their company, the only difference is one was very attractive with a fit body and one was average looking and over weight… will all things being equally are you saying that you would choice the plain looking fat girl?”
     
    I only ask this because I’m so tired of people assuming that just because a man or woman is attractive that they have a bad moral character. I can’t speak for anyone else, but I’ve gone through this all my life, because of my looks women always assume that I’m some kind of shallow pretty boy and if I’m not attracted to them it’s because I have a problem (though Karmic I will take to heart what you told me in #3), when women discover that I’m going to med school, they automatically assume I’m a snob. You wouldn’t believe how many times I’ve had girls tell me that they were surprised that I’m such a nice down to earth person, or that they were surprised that someone like me would talk to them, how are your insecurities my fault?
     
    It’s just so annoying people always assuming that the attractive person is arrogant and self absorbed because they don’t find you attractive, but the fat women or the man who works at the factory if they don’t want to date you it’s okay because you aren’t everyone’s type!? What can’t you be my type, why can’t it just be that I’m honestly just not attracted to you? Evan wrote about this in another thread (I can’t remember the title right now) and most of the female posters were saying that when they dated guys who weren’t as attractive they still had jerks in the bunch. A good person is a good person regardless of how they look.
     
    I’m currently studying in Europe, I’ve only been here for a few months but you would be amazed at how many people just assume so many things about you just because you are an American… without ever speaking to you first… Anyway I believe that Kiki’s point is that it’s a good self-esteem boast to be in a relationship with a person who you know that many others find attractive but they “CHOSE TO BE WITH YOU”. This makes you feel desired and special, because he/she isn’t someone who just anyone could be with, so you have value. If you are in a relationship, why not stay in shape for the person you love, I always hear women (regardless of how she looks) saying that they want their guy to make them feel like she’s the most beautiful women in his eyes, I never hear women complain that they want their man to says she’s the most considerate… 
     
    I’m not disagreeing with Chance or Locutus, nor am I not taking to heart the great advice Karmic gave me about 

    1. 29.1
      Chance

      Gabri’el
      “If you had two women, both had great personalities and treated you well, made you smile, and you genuinely enjoyed both of their company, the only difference is one was very attractive with a fit body and one was average looking and over weight… will all things being equally are you saying that you would choice the plain looking fat girl?”
       
      This question is somewhat academic because one has to assume everything else away to answer it, but I’ll try:  if two women were exactly the same in every way, shape, and form – except for looks – then yes, I would choose the better looking woman.  However, there are so many factors that play into compatibility, and these factors are often complex and/or subtle, that a person has to take much more into consideration than what you mentioned when choosing a partner.  In addition, it is so rare to find someone that you are truly compatible with, so a situation like what you described would almost never happen in real life…. one potential partner is likely to be more compatible than the other, so the only difference isn’t going to be looks. 
       
      Finally, just because I would choose the better-looking woman amongst two women that are the same in every other way doesn’t mean that looks are the most important trait in a woman (which was my original point – that looks do not account for 90% of a woman’s success in dating).  If two women were exactly the same except for intelligence, or sense of humor, or earning potential, then I would choose the smarter one, or the funnier one, or the higher-earning one, respectively.
       
      “I only ask this because I’m so tired of people assuming that just because a man or woman is attractive that they have a bad moral character.”
       
      Dude, who is saying that?  Don’t stress  yourself out about that, my man.  I don’t think anyone is claiming such a thing.

      1. 29.1.1
        Karmic Equation

        I gotta defend Gabe a bit here. Women avoid the “very good looking men” because they think they’re all players. I think that’s what Gabe meant.
         
        I think I’m the only one who thinks men can be good looking and a good person too. It could be that I’m just good a picking good peckers. haha. Couldn’t resist that. Sorry!

        1. Kiki

          Karmic,
          I am all with you!  I actually think that it is more likely to meet a good looking man who is a great person than a woman with the same combination.  
          By the way, if you meant to imply in the other comment that I do not handle criticism well – you are absolutely spot on.  But I do not mind at all when it comes from you :-)

        2. Karmic Equation

          Gosh, Kiki, I didn’t mean to criticize you in my post about criticism. Sorry.
          It was more about how I spin criticism in my head to something I can act upon or learn from. Which I think contributes to how merrily I go through life. I practically never hear criticism. Only good advice by bad communicators. lol

  29. 30
    Peter 51

    Weight is not a one way street.  Women don’t like fat men.  Nor do any teenagers which can give a heritage of a lifetime of stress.  I’ve had to guard my weight since I was 14 and the rest of the world was very thin.  I was overweight not obese but in a world of the thin I stood out as undesirable.  Now the world has become fat and I am relatively thin.  Revenge is best served cold.  At worst my BMI was 29.5, enough to trigger diabetes, although not diagnosed at the time, which lasted 2 years.  I reduced to 25.5 BMI (a 15 kg loss) by changing my exercise type and then plateaued and never moved.  Still technically fat but I exercise a lot so it carries well.  No T2 problems with vigor.  All hormone systems are functional.  It definitely put a nail in the coffin of my marriage in that it made changed my wife’s behaviour when all sorts of greater claims from our children had not.  I have a lot of sympathy for Karmic about male hypocrisy.  It is the nature of on line dating.  In the real world, an emotionally battered refugee from a bad marriage is not going to worry hugely about your waistline if you can give him some emotional support and friendship.  On line his filters have eliminated you from the start.

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