12 Rules To Keep A Man

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Saw this video on a friend’s Facebook page and wanted to share it with you.

It made me think two things:

1) While we can quibble with the messenger, the message is pretty spot on. Much of it – apart from the appearance stuff – can be read in Why He Disappeared, in fact.

2) I should start making YouTube videos that get 100,000 hits.

What do you think of this guy’s “rules” and are there any with which you disagree?

(By the way, comments that list the equivalent rules for men and what’s wrong with men will be summarily deleted. That’s not the point of this post. –The Management)

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Comments:

  1. 61
    Margo

    Ultimately, Karl, Nicole, and those who agree with them, it is up to the individual regarding whether they want to try something or not. When that decision is made, the partner has no right to disrespect their decisions on what they deem appropriate to do with their own body. Leveling accusations of being close-minded is unloving, inappropriate and just plain selfish. A person has his or her own reasons as to why they might want to try some things and not others and that should not be open to negotiation.

    I have tried and happen to like (on occasion) being choked to a certain extent during love-making, but I wouldn’t like to be smothered with a pillow. Whatever it is, I don’t want to try it is not a bad thing for me to say “NO’. In addition, it doesn’t indicate I’m not sexually-open, and it doesn’t mean I don’t want to please the man I’m with. If the man I’m with doesn’t want to be choked, that is his right and I should respect his choice. I would concede that the practice can be risky, just like the ones who enjoy anal sex should concede that it’s a nasty practice.

    What a man should NOT be doing is lying and denying that reality just so he can get his rocks off. That’s what angers most women about many men’s attitude on this subject, and rightly so!

    As stated previously, it’s generally a positive thing for a men and women to be sexually open, but for a man to leave a woman because she won’t satisfy him sexually by doing something she doesn’t agree with isn’t good. It’s very telling of his feelings toward her as well as his character in general.

  2. 62
    Karl R

    Leslie said: (#58)
    “There’s no point in trying to convince me or someone else to be more adventurous if we don’t want to be – maybe we’re not the right girl for YOU, but for somebody else, we probably are.”

    One man I knew (a girlfriend’s ex) probably considered himself to be “non-adventurous.” His idea of sex was getting naked, missionary position, and mechanically thrusting until he was done. Never any variety. He never even changed up the tempo.

    You could say that there’s someone out there who is right for him. I would say, “Good luck finding a woman who is interested in having lousy sex for an entire marriage.”

    Why should that man try to introduce variety into his sex life? He’s found something that works well for him every single time?

    If the sex has that little variety, you not only need to find a partner who doesn’t mind a lack of variety, you also have to find someone who prefers the exact same few things that you do.

    I find it easier to broaden the variety so we each experience our favorite things some of the time.

    starthrower68 said: (#59)
    “Also, anybody can rule out anything they want to whether they’ve tried it or not.  Your cost-benefit ratio analysis may vary from theirs.”

    A child can refuse to try a new food without tasting it too. That’s fairly common behavior for children. Why do parents keep trying to get their children to try something before refusing to eat it? In part, it’s because the behavior is childish, and they’re trying to instill more mature patterns of behavior.

    As an adult, what’s the benefit to having a partner who childishly rules things out for no reason whatsoever?

    You are correct in that, “anybody can rule out anything they want to whether they’ve tried it or not.” And after trying a relationship with a woman who did that regularly, I ruled her out.

    Margo said: (#61)
    “for a man to leave a woman because she won’t satisfy him sexually by doing something she doesn’t agree with isn’t good. It’s very telling of his feelings toward her as well as his character in general”

    That particular woman would lie on her back, unmoving, with her legs spread. She wouldn’t agree to doing anything beyond that.

    She repeatedly demonstrated that she had no interest in expending any effort to ensure I was sexually satisfied. I thought that was rather telling of her character in general, and it ended up changing my feelings towards her.

    Margo said: (#61)
    “the partner has no right to disrespect their decisions on what they deem appropriate to do with their own body. Leveling accusations of being close-minded is unloving, inappropriate and just plain selfish. A person has his or her own reasons as to why they might want to try some things and not others and that should not be open to negotiation.”

    If things in the relationship aren’t open to discussion/negotiation (and this goes well beyond just sex), it’s a dealbreaker.

    Furthermore, if I believe a person is being close-minded about sex, I won’t act disrespectfully toward them or accuse them of being close minded.

    I’ll leave.

    And I have every right to make that decision.

    If the man leaves, you didn’t manage to keep him. And that’s why it’s one of the twelve rules.

    starthrower68 said: (#59)
    “you listed 6 boundaries that you believe are acceptable.”

    I did not say “acceptable.” I used the word “reasonable.” I provided a logical reason for each of those boundaries.

    starthrower68 said: (#59)
    “one person’s set of criteria isn’t going to be the same as yours.”

    That’s perfectly fine … provided they have logical reasons for their boundaries.

    Even though I listed one reason for not being interested in threesomes, I have several reasons. It would be possible to work around all of those reasons simultaneously, but I haven’t encountered that set of circumstances yet (nor am I seeking to).

    Everything I’ve read indicates that a good sexual relationship is an important element to a good long-term relationship. In addition, everything indicates that sex has a tendency to get into a rut after a while unless the couple makes an effort to spice things up periodically. Even plain old vanilla tastes better if you don’t have it every single time.

    The fewer things you rule out, the more options you have for adding variety.

    If someone starts ruling things out just because they’re new or different, it becomes nearly impossible to add variety.

    Leslie said: (#58)
    “If you bring out a toy, whip, chain, prop or anything man made other than protection into the bedroom, I will be out of there.”

    Okay, so dildos are unacceptable, but cucumbers are okay?

    If the bed’s not man-made, what’s it made of?

    Whips and chains are still considered appropriate if you’re having sex in the kitchen?

    I realize that wasn’t your intent, but that one “rule” is just a non-stop source of amusement.

  3. 63
    Trenia

    Overall, I thought the video was great and pretty funny but I strongly disagree with rule #1 about not listening to your girlfriends. I hear so many men say this, but who are men taking relationship and dating advice from? Other men! Men aren’t calling up their single women friends asking for dating advice or how to keep a woman in their life, they’re talking and taking advice from other men, so of course women are doing the same thing. Also, it is often your single girlfriends who can pick up on things about your man, like if he has a proclivity toward violence, etc…People act like the average man has done all of this research and has some special knowledge about the female psyche and it’s just not true. Most men have not talked to women in depth about dating and relationships the way Evan has, so they are going out there based on advice from their single male friends, which isn’t always healthy or accurate.  

    While I agree about being sexually open, the increasing violence and body/image manipulation in pornography has affected many men and what they expect from women sexually and how they think our bodies should look. I don’t believe that a fully grown woman should look like a pre-pubescent girl by shaving her pubic hair, I would encourage you to see the Vagina Monologues, there’s a great one about this.

  4. 64
    Nicole

    @Starthrower…did you read what I wrote.  I agreed with you.  I agreed with the point that there are things that you don’t have to try to be reasonably sure that they aren’t acceptable to you.
    I also said to take sex out of it because I felt it was clouding the discussion about being open (yes, veering from the original list).
    What about that wasn’t clear?  I think that you assumed that I was telling you that you were wrong and that you should let your partner perform abhorrent sex acts and all I did was say that to take the most ridiculous example as a reason not to be open was missing the point.  
    I think Karl more or less agreed with you too but for whatever reason, you and Margo are both missing that.
    Forget about sex…it’s good to be open in general b/c there are a lot of things out there that you miss otherwise.  And it’s good to have enough sense to know when something is worth a try or is totally dangerous, but you are looking at two ends of the spectrum to suggest that anyone is telling you to violate your morals or risk your safety.

  5. 65
    Margo

    @Carl #62. Manage to keep a man?? Shaking my head…Karl, it’s not a woman’s job to “manage” to keep a man. That kind of thinking is not part of a healthy relationship. In a mutually exclusive, healthy relationship both partners are doing their part to love each other, respect each other, please each other to make it work.

    To paraphrase your words: If a woman doesn’t want to do something you lust after sexually, she gave you her decision, and maybe even her reasons, but she doesn’t want to negotiate her stance, then you’re out the door?? Nice. Good luck with that.

    This isn’t love, Karl. That’s selfishness.

  6. 66
    "Doris"

    @Maeve:

    I liked your link.  :)

    @Karl R:

    Don’t like a little furriness when going down?  (Mine is soft, clean and trimmed, so I don’t see the problem.)  Now you know what it is like for us dealing with a man’s entire body!  Are you willing to wax your entire body for us? (Rhetorical question)

    Also, someone who refuses to do something without logical reasons is not necessarily close-minded at all.  They might very well be using their intuition, which is far better at sensing and predicting dangerous situations than the conscious (logical) mind can.  In other words, I don’t need a logical reason to say no to having something put into my anus.  I already know intuitively that it’s not going to be a pretty picture.   That doesn’t make me narrow minded, either.

  7. 67
    Karl R

    Margo said: (#65)
    “To paraphrase your words: [...]“

    That’s a rather narrowly-construed view of what I said. I’ll rephrase it so you grasp the full implications.

    If either person in a relationship takes the stance that they made a decision, there’s no negotiation, possibly not even any discussion, they have restricted their partner to two choices (1) agree, (2) leave. This is true regardless of the subject of the decision (sex, money, what color to paint the bathroom).

    When one person decides that some of their decisions are non-negotiable, the relationship becomes a time bomb. Sooner or later their partner won’t agree with one of those decisions.

    It’s necessary for the partner to end that kind of relationship. It’s easier if he/she isn’t in love, but it’s necessary in any case.

    I only have a few non-negotiables (dealbreakers). Early in the relationship, I verified that my fiancée agreed with me on those issues. Everything else that comes up is open to discussion, negotiation and compromise.

    Margo said: (#65)
    “she gave you her decision, and maybe even her reasons, but she doesn’t want to negotiate her stance”

    You can take that attitude with your child, your employee or your pet … not your partner.

    Margo said: (#65)
    “it’s not a woman’s job to ‘manage’ to keep a man. That kind of thinking is not part of a healthy relationship. In a mutually exclusive, healthy relationship both partners are doing their part to love each other, respect each other, please each other to make it work.”

    You just contradicted yourself. “Both partners are doing their part,” but somehow the woman is excluded from that job?

    If you don’t manage to keep the man happy, he’ll leave. If he doesn’t manage to keep you happy, you should leave. If you believe that you should stay in an unhappy relationship out of “love” for your partner, seek professional counseling.

    Doris said: (#66)
    “someone who refuses to do something without logical reasons is not necessarily close-minded at all.  They might very well be using their intuition, which is far better at sensing and predicting dangerous situations than the conscious (logical) mind can.”

    In that case, tell your partner that it seems risky to you, you want time to think about it, and you’ll discuss it later.

    Before you discuss it, take the time to educate your conscious mind to the point where you can give a logical reason to back up your decision.

    Intuition is a great tool when you need to make an uninformed decision quickly. It’s a poor substitute for taking the time to make an informed decision.

    And if a person refuses to educate themselves on a matter that’s personally important to them … is it possible to get more close-minded than that?

    Trenia said: (#63)
    “who are men taking relationship and dating advice from? Other men!”

    You really don’t understand men. Men rarely ask for advice. When we do, we ask someone we perceive as having expertise in that area. I’m not going to ask my single male friends for relationship advice. What the hell do they know? I’m going to get advice from a friend who has the kind of relationship that I want.

    Trenia said: (#63)
    “Men aren’t calling up their single women friends asking for dating advice or how to keep a woman in their life,”

    Of course not. They’re single. They haven’t demostrated that they know any more than I do.

    As a starting point, get advice from someone who had a mixed track record of sucesses and failures but ultimately succeeded in a big way. It’s rather likely that they learned something along the way.

  8. 68
    Fawn

    Karl, you are awesome!

  9. 69
    Apple Jacks

    Karl said: (#67)

    Intuition is a great tool when you need to make an uninformed decision quickly. It’s a poor substitute for taking the time to make an informed decision.

    This, in a nutshell, is a lesson that I learned the hard way. I’m glad I used to only rely on intution and nothing else. Thank the above for the balance I finally gained.

  10. 70
    Trenia

    @Karl, Again, therein lies the problem, you telling me what I don’t understand, and this is the stance that many men take when talking about relationships. What I do understand is that men talk to other men, that’s the point, the same way women talk to other women.

  11. 71
    Karl R

    Trenia said: (#70)
    “What I do understand is that men talk to other men, that’s the point, the same way women talk to other women.”

    That’s incorrect. Men talk to men much differently than women talk to women.

    Read one of the Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus books. They cover the difference between how men and women communicate at great length.

    Furthermore, his main point was that you shouldn’t be listening to “your single-ass lonely girlfriends” advice about relationships. That’s like asking an unemployed person for advice about how to get a job. If they knew the answer to the question, how long would they remain unemployed?

  12. 72
    Still Looking

    @ Trenia 70

    Trenia –  As a man who spends a lot of time talking with both women and men, both socially and in the workplace, I can tell you that men differ considerably from women when it comes to discussing relationships.

    I have seen men give advice on a specific issue, for example a man might complain about his wife spending too much money and another man might offer some practical solutions — create a budget, talk with her, have separate checking accounts, etc.  These conversations are usually very private and unemotional — just pragmatic advice.

    What I haven’t seen since I was considerably younger was a guy stating he was interested in a girl and getting feedback from a number of guys.  Even then it was usually very general and positive – “go for it”, “yeah, she’s hot”, and “she seems really cool.”

    What I have experienced when being around women is totally different.  A woman will say, for example, “I went out with John last weekend and he showed up 15 minutes late.”  The other women seem to take this as an open invitation to eviscerate poor John based on their own observations, gossip, and conjecture.

    I’m not saying every woman and every man acts as I just described, just a generalized observation.  Men do not talk to men the way women talk to women. Women tend to reinforce another woman’s expression of dismay, frustration, anger, and joy.  Men, on the other hand, tend to be rather emotionless and keep their opinions to themselves unless asked directly.

  13. 73
    Liz

    Karl is making a lot more sense than his (conversational) opponents.

    And yeah, talking to your single girlfriends is not that helpful. I always tell friends to have at least one female friend in an LTR to talk to. Our advice tends to be different. I know my advice improved a lot once I found what I had been searching for.

  14. 74
    Margo

    Karl says: “You just contradicted yourself, “Both partners are doing their part”, but somehow the woman is excluded from that job. ”

    No, I didn’t contradict myself. For example, the man asks for something sexual. The woman considers it-that’s what the brain automatically does when it is presented with an idea or request-then decides she doesn’t want to try it. Considering what you asked IS doing her part. She shouldn’t have to do things that make her comfortable in order to keep YOU happy. Again, this is pure selfish thinking. 

    Karl says: “If you don’t manage to keep the man happy, he’ll leave. If he doesn’t manage to keep you happy, you should leave. If you believe you should stay in an unhappy relationship out of “love” for your partner, seek professional counseling.”

    Healthy relationships don’t entail getting what you want all the time, that includes “compromising” your way into it. Again, a rather childless view of how relationships should work.

    Wanting to get your way at the expense of the comfort and happiness of your loved one bespeaks of a controlling, selfish, childish, end entitled mindset.

    Karl says: “When one person decides that some of their decisions are non-negotiable, the relationship becomes a time bomb. Sooner or later their partner won’t agree with one of their decisons.

    Ok, and if their partner doesn’t agree with one of their decisions, instead of being a child and threatening to leave, that partner can grow up, suck it up, and realize that he CANNOT have everything he wants. That’s true in all aspects of life, why shouldn’t it be true in relationships? Sorry, but it IS true in relationships, healthy or otherwise.

    Karl says: “I only have a few non-negotiables (dealbreakers). Early in the relationship, I verified that my fiance agreed with me on those issues.”

    No arguement here. 

    Karl says: “Everything e;se is open to discussion, negotiation and compromise.”

    This is where I’m going to argue. Yes, when you have asked your partner to do something she doesn’t want to do with her OWN body, she can discuss her reasons with you, with the caveat that you don’t harrass and badger her about it. 

    However, negotiating on it, as well as compromising on it, entails that the person will have to participate or be in involved in the act on some level. Therefore, you are disprespecting her boundaries and trying to force something on her that she doesn’t want to do. I hate to sound like a parrot…but again, controlling, childish, selfish, entitled…

    If a man behaved this way with me, I would tell him “goodbye”.

  15. 75
    starthrower68

    You’re right Karl.  Everything IS open to discussion.  That doesn’t mean that  a woman will comply.  If you leave her because she won’t you are doing her a favor.  She may be hurt by rejection, but she’ll get over it. I’m happy to have these discussions with a guy. If it crosses my boundaries, not only is he free to go, but I will encourage him to do so.  I’m sure I will be called a bitter elitist snob and that doesn’t bother me a bit.

  16. 76
    Margo

    Exactly, Starthrower! :) What is far sadder than Karl’s comments on this subject are the comments of women on here who have allowed themselves to be threatened into doing whatever a man wants to keep him from leaving. There is a word for that: Doormat.

  17. 77
    Snazzy

    Thanks Evan, the more men we hear it from, the more we’ll believe it’s true.

    Karl, Margo and Starthrower- time out please!!

  18. 78
    Helen

    I usually am 99% with Karl, but in this case I agree with Margo and starthrower68. They have a much more realistic view of how to approach a partner in a LTR, and when to know to back off and let the other person have their space and comfort. I say this having been with the same fellow 13 years, married 11.

  19. 79
    Karl R

    Margo said: (#74)
    “She shouldn’t have to do things that make her [un]comfortable in order to keep YOU happy. Again, this is pure selfish thinking.”

    As I’ve gotten older, it has become physically uncomfortable for me to perform oral sex on a woman. The discomfort varies, and it can be mitigated in part by elevating the woman’s hips, but depending on the day and the position, it’s going to vary from mild discomfort to pain which gradually increases throughout the duration of the act.

    If I perform oral sex on my fiancée, it triples or quadruples the chances that she has one or more orgasms. Therefore, I go down about 90% of the time (without being asked) in order to ensure that the sex is great for her.

    To you, it’s “purely selfish thinking” that two adults might discuss and compromise on trying an act that one of them finds physically or psychologically uncomfortable.

    To me, the idea that someone would voluntarily choose to do something uncomfortable in order to make his/her partner happy seems completely routine.

    I’m not going to claim that my motives are self-sacrificing. The direct benefit to my fiancée greatly outweighs the discomfort/pain I experience. Furthermore, the indirect benefits that I receive from making her happy greatly outweigh the discomfort/pain as well.

    To me, it seems incredibly shortsighted to avoid trying uncomfortable things, purely from a cost/benefit perspective.

    Margo said: (#74)
    “However, negotiating on it, as well as compromising on it, entails that the person will have to participate or be in involved in the act on some level. Therefore, you are disprespecting her boundaries and trying to force something on her that she doesn’t want to do.”

    In my experience, two mature adults can discuss, negotiate and compromise without being disrespectful or forcing the other person to do something. For some reason, you see these activities as being near-synonymous with harassing and badgering.

    As an example, let’s assume that Gem (#40) wasn’t comfortable with the idea of having sex on the seadoo in the middle of the lake. She and her boyfriend can discuss the issue. How exciting is this scenario to him? Is it something that he’s vaguely curious about trying, but doesn’t expect to enjoy more than vanilla sex, or is it his most exciting fantasy? How uncomfortable does this scenario make her? Does it just feel slightly awkward, or is it likely to trigger a phobia, motion sickness, or some other serious reaction?

    After that, they can begin negotiating the details. If Gem has a phobia about deep water, would she be okay if the seadoo was in water that was 4′ deep? If she’s worried about someone taking a video and posting it on YouTube, would it be sufficient to have a blanket covering them, thus making any video too boring to watch?

    Similarly, what aspect of that scenario really rocks his world? Is is the motion of the boat under them? Is it the possibility of being seen? Is it possible to meet the important aspects of the fantasy in a very different scenario?

    Maybe the compromise ends up being that they end up renting a boat that has an enclosed cabin. It entails some additional expense and possibly can’t be done the next time they go to the lake, but it’s something that can be accomplished which works for both of them.

    I intend to spend the next several decades with my fiancée. There’s no benefit to forcing her to do anything that she is opposed to. Similarly, there’s no benefit to saying “Never” to something she really wants to do. And since she intends to spend the next several decades with me, she feels the same way.

    You seem to be viewing this as being entirely about power and control. And that attitude is the antithesis of negotiation and compromise, either inside or outside of the bedroom.

  20. 80
    Gem

    Actually Karl, there was some negotiation. My apprehention had to do with the possibility of the coastguard or a child seeing us. In order for me to agree it was on the condition that we chose an area to greatly reduce the chances of being seen.

    As far as me doing something physically uncomfortable, I also understand your point…there are positions that aren’t necessarily comfortable at all for me but if they are a favorite of my partner, I’ll comply because his pleasure is part of the turn-on for me. Of course my enthusiasm to be generous to any lover is because he is equally as giving and generous and understanding to me.

    Now….a person CAN be genuinely “open” sexually and still have a few hard limits and their reasons may be logical to them, but the partner who is really itchin’ to do this-or-that may not find those reasons logical or reasonable. Sometimes turn-ons/offs and the reasons behind them are subjective and VERY illogical.

    I think what starthrower and Margo are saying, is that at a certain point, their feelings should just be respected regardless if their partner agrees with their logic/reasoning. Expecially if they are open, and giving sexually in a thousand other ways.

    Example: On the show: Sex and the City, Carrie was dating a politician who wanted her to urinate on him. She could not bring herself to go there but “negotiated” by suggesting, “I could dribble warm water on you, that might feel good.” Well, he dumped her.

    I personally, couldn’t do it either. My reasons are psychological: it feels like I’d be placing him in a submissive position and it feels like I’d be lowering or humiliating him by such an action and that is not hot to me. It’s sooooo NOT HOT, that I won’t bend because I think it would lower my attraction overall and damage the relationship. For me, sex and bodily waste don’t go together.

    And guess what? I have no experiential data to back up my position so how logical is it?

    To ME, that’s reasonable, but to HIM, that might not be reasonable at all because his feelings are telling him the opposite. And what if I couldn’t articulate my reasons but knew it turned me off and I just thought, “ick.”

    If we were wonderful in every other way, I’d sure hope he’d respect my limit and move on, but if it were so important to him that he had to leave me for a “pee-er”, LOL, then I don’t think I’d feel like I didn’t “manage” to keep him. Some times people are wired differently and are not a match. I’m all for being open and negotiating and I believe the other gals are to, they are simply saying limits should be respected regardless if they can get a jury of their peers to agree that the reasons are logical beyond a reasonable doubt.

  21. 81
    "Doris"

    I said (#66):
    “someone who refuses to do something without logical reasons is not necessarily close-minded at all.  They might very well be using their intuition, which is far better at sensing and predicting dangerous situations than the conscious (logical) mind can.”
    And then Karl responded (#70):

    ” In that case, tell your partner that it seems risky to you, you want time to think about it, and you’ll discuss it later.
    Before you discuss it, take the time to educate your conscious mind to the point where you can give a logical reason to back up your decision.
    Intuition is a great tool when you need to make an uninformed decision quickly. It’s a poor substitute for taking the time to make aninformed decision.
    And if a person refuses to educate themselves on a matter that’s personally important to them … is it possible to get more close-minded than that?”

    Karl has used the analogy of trying foods as an analogy for trying varied sexual practices.  This is not a valid analogy.  Generally speaking, trying new foods (provided basic sanitary practices have been used in preparation) has very little chance of physically or psychologically harming an individual; alternative sexual practices (or any physically robust or intimate experiences) carry a much great risk for harm.  If I said that as a 120-lb. woman I do not like playing full contact football, there would likely be few people who would question my preference, even if I hadn’t tried it.  I don’t need to try everything to know that something will not be pleasant for me.

    A person doesn’t have to justify their preferences.  Though we can change them over time, our preferences contribute to our unique self.  For example, I like the colors green and pink.  I cannot give a logical reason why l do.  I just know that I prefer these colors.  Friends of mine who love me accept me for my unique preferences such as these.

    There are many preferences that we all possess.  While I agree that it is good to be open-minded, it is also important to own one’s own preferences.  I fear there is a lot of mental “bullying” going on with men using arguments such as Karl’s (above) and preying upon women’s general tendency to want to please men in general and their individual man specifically.  There is such a thing as overdoing it in relationships; it’s known as co-dependence.

    I’ve heard this subject of “women need to please their men” come up a lot in the media.  I think it is rather funny because, ultimately, the only person who is responsible for one’s sexual fulfillment is oneself.  The mind is a powerful sex organ and people throughout the ages have managed to find sexual outlets, with most of them acceptable within their culture’s mores.  I understand that people can bored with the same-old, same-old, but, really, if you have to run the gamut of all the aberrant sexual practices within the first year of your relationship, what does that leave you for the rest of  your relationship?  It seems to me that a man who gets bored easily is a man that will be bored easily throughout the duration of a relationship… and that doesn’t bode well for a long-term, stable match.

  22. 82
    Margo

    Bravo, Doris! :) “Mental bullying” is definitely the word for the type of mindset you describe. When presented with a woman’s aversion to a certain sexual technique or position, and subsequent refusal to try it, from what he posted it isn’t enough that she discuss it with him. She has to negotiate and compromise on it, or he considers leaving her. That is the kind of relationship that I want no part of.

    This type of mindset is selfish and unreasonable. In addition, as you posted, Doris, it is also a significant risk to establishing a healthy, long-term, loving relationship. 

  23. 83
    Karl R

    Gem said: (#80)
    “Example: On the show: Sex and the City, Carrie was dating a politician who wanted her to urinate on him.”

    By now you’re getting all the way into sexual fetishes. Based on what I’ve gathered talking to friends who have sexual fetishes, they’re not inclined quit engaging in them for the rest of their lives. In their view, it’s not far from asking one of us to voluntarily enter a sexless marriage.

    I doubt my friends are representative of all people with fetishes, but I suspect there are at least a significant portion who feel the same way. If you are in a relationship with a politician who wants you to pee on him, you have three choices: (1) fulfill his fetish, (2) allow him to fulfill his fetish outside the relationship, (3) end the relationship. If I was in that situation, I’d pick 1 or 3, depending on the particular fetish.

    Leaving is always a valid choice. Making someone change to fit your preferences is not. This thread is titled “12 Rules to Keep a Man.” If you decide he’s not worth keeping, or you create a situation where he decides to leave, then we’ve gotten outside of the topic of the video.

    Doris said: (#81)
    “I fear there is a lot of mental ‘bullying’ going on with men using arguments such as Karl’s (above)”

    Leaving is bullying? Having been bullied repeatedly while growing up, I would have been delighted if the bullies had chosen to leave.

    If one partner strongly prefers to do things that the other partner is completely averse to, I’d call it sexual incompatability and break things off.

    I wouldn’t call it bullying.

    Margo said: (#82)
    “When presented with a woman’s aversion to a certain sexual technique or position, and subsequent refusal to try it, from what he posted it isn’t enough that she discuss it with him. She has to negotiate and compromise on it, or he considers leaving her.”

    Compromise can take a lot of forms. The compromise could be her suggesting a different technique or position which I agree to.

    I’m not interested in a relationship where my attempts to add variety to the sex involve me making one suggestion after another while the woman vetoes them. It doesn’t feel like a partnership to me. If you don’t like the man’s suggestion, make a different suggestion. That’s negotiation. Is it really that horrible for you to come up with an idea?

    If you’re clever, you can win the negotiation every time. When he makes a suggestion that you don’t like, make a suggestion that he likes better than his original suggestion. Both of you will feel like you won.

    Doris asked: (#81)
    “really, if you have to run the gamut of all the aberrant sexual practices within the first year of your relationship, what does that leave you for the rest of your relationship?”

    Is this really a common problem for you in your relationships?

    99% of the time, you’ll have a partner who is alot closer to mainstream … even when he/she is being experimental. The only exception I personally know is a plain vanilla IT geek who is dating a fetish queen. And he knew what he was getting into before the first date.

    I find it likely that my fiancée and I will end up debating which pose to try out of the kama sutra at some point in the future. I don’t think either of us will end up suggesting that we involve farm animals “just for the sake of variety.”

  24. 84
    Helen

    Karl R #79, you set up a false dichotomy when you write: “You seem to be viewing this as being entirely about power and control. And that attitude is the antithesis of negotiation and compromise, either inside or outside of the bedroom.”

    Negotiation IS about power and control. We negotiate for resources and goods, which are the means by which we have any measure of power and control in human society.

    If someone says “No” to someone or something, and the other person keeps pushing them to try to change their mind, that is HARASSMENT.  Doesn’t matter if it occurs in the bedroom, barroom, or boardroom. People don’t need to justify their answer “No.” My hubby has certain things he doesn’t like that I can’t always understand – but I accept it, and don’t try to keep pushing him. He respects me the same way.  If either of us felt the need to “negotiate” to get the other person to cater to our every pleasure despite the other person’s discomfort, and couldn’t respect the answer “no,” you can bet we wouldn’t still be married.

    If a woman keeps saying no to a man about something that makes her uncomfortable, and he chooses to make that a dealbreaker, then all the better – for both of them. 

    Doris and Margo: Amen, sisters.

  25. 85
    Annie

    I tend to agree with Karl on this one, but I’m not sure I would use the words compromise?

    In many way’s, discussing the reason why you may not like something, can often help you to find another way to achieve the same result. So you aren’t so much as compromising as gaining a deeper understanding of each other and how to please each other.

    I do agree with the ladies though, that one does need to ultimately accept No for an answer on many things. IE if I date a guy who hates chick flicks, then I accep the “no” he won’t go, it’s really not a big deal.

    I guess at the end of the day, the more Dealbreakers you have(where you must say No ), the more difficulty you will have if finding a partner.

  26. 86
    Gem

    “Negotiation IS about power and control. We negotiate for resources and goods, which are the means by which we have any measure of power and control in human society.”
    Negotiation CAN come from a place of power and control in a relationship or in dealing with business, but it can also come from a place of love and respect where both partners want the best for each other and want to find a happy medium which will be mutually satisfying.

    The latter is what I want from partner and I want to give. I think that’s the point Karl is making.

    “If someone says “No” to someone, and the other person keeps pushing them to try to change their mind, that is HARASSMENT.” 

    If my partner and I could not find a happy medium on something, after I openly tried to negotiate, sexual or otherwise, and he kept badgering me to wear me down, Yes, that would be Harassment. And it would be disrespectful and would show that he didn’t have my best interests at heart.

    No one is suggesting a woman do that. The point is to be open enough to have the discussion, maybe try something new, and if possible compromise and negotiate a solution where both partner’s needs are met. If that model doesn’t result in a solution, respecting the limitations of each other is in order.

    But Karl is right, if someone KNOWS they will not be happy unless they have “X” in their life, and there is no way to find a compromise, then that person may leave. It could be you, it could be him, and that’s life.

    Loving each other is about trying to prevent that, and find solutions when possible. 

  27. 87
    Margo

    “But Karl is right, if someone KNOWS they will not be happy unless they have “X” in their life, and there is no way to find a compromise, then that person may leave. It could be you, it could be him, and that’s life.”

    Gem, information on what both people need should be revealed to each other before a relationship is entered into. That way, both people can be confident they can have their sexual needs met and no one has to end the relationship over sexual preferences.

    As long as both people love each other and are trying to please each other sexually, both parties should be able to get over when the other one vetos a sexual request.

  28. 88
    Jadafisk

    “By now you’re getting all the way into sexual fetishes. Based on what I’ve gathered talking to friends who have sexual fetishes, they’re not inclined quit engaging in them for the rest of their lives. In their view, it’s not far from asking one of us to voluntarily enter a sexless marriage.”
    That being said, the fetishist has to consider their realistic options as well. There are some sexual desires that are unlikely to be satisfied for free by anyone the person is remotely attracted to and able to get along with, who resides within a reasonable location radius, who is as equally motivated to satisfy them and is about equally as incompatible with others who refuse to engage in the fetish. There are people who will spend the rest of their lives alone because if they have a partner, that partner *must* diaper them while they mewl and shake a rattle during at least one out of every four sexual encounters. If the significant other won’t do it… someone else may not either, depending on what it is.

  29. 89
    starthrower68

    I’m sure I will catch flack on this, but all of the libertinism out there has cheapened and depersonalized sex.  Sex is a good and wonderful thing in its place but its not really an elevation of the human spirit in this day and age.  My viewpoint is not popular, I know.  It’s a good thing I don’t care about being popular. :o)

  30. 90
    SS

    No flack from me Starthrower68. I understand what you’re saying completely.
     
    Guess I’m not popular either!

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