69% of Men Get Rejected Before a First Date

If you look at the top of the page under my name, you’ll see two short sentences:

Understand Men. Find Love.

I don’t think it’s a stretch to say that if men understood women, they’d do better with women. Nor is it surprising that women who understand men do better with men.

That’s the entire essence of this blog; rather than complaining about why men should change (which they should!), it’s more powerful to understand the people you’re trying to date.

If you’re going to understand the male dating experience, a great place to look is online, where, generally, as in real-life, men are the pursuers and women are the pursued.

According to this juicy infographic, 69% of men got rejected before the first date.

Here’s a quick breakdown of how these men were rejected when asking a woman out:
• 24% got friend-zoned
• 29% were rejected and the woman did not suggest an alternative day
• 47% didn’t get a reply (she didn’t text back)

Which means the most likely way a woman will reject a man is to ignore him.

Rather than complaining about why men should change (which they should!), it’s more powerful to understand the people you’re trying to date.

Furthermore, out of the 2,454 men surveyed, only 13% made it to a second date

As a man who dated online prolifically, I got rejected over 50% of the time before meeting. Conversely, most of my clients are ready to quit online dating if two or three cute guys don’t write back. So yes, men should know what it’s like to get horrifying dick pics or threats from angry rejectees, and women should know what it’s like to get more widespread rejection in a month than most women get in a lifetime.

Instead of comments that tell me how 85% of men are awful, creepy, stupid, perverted, old, short, and poor (when the number is actually 80%), I would love to hear you offer a sentence of sympathy for what the average man must go through to get a second date.

Your thoughts, below, are greatly appreciated.

Join our conversation (650 Comments).
Click Here To Leave Your Comment Below.

Comments:

  1. 1
    Yet Another Guy

    I am going to get a tub of buttered popcorn.  The comments to this blog entry should be fun to read.

  2. 2
    Jeanne

    Maybe they get rejected so much bec. they email only the most attractive women on the site when they themselves are homely & or broke/uneducated. Those women are going to be very picky & choosy- bec. they can!

    1. 2.1
      mgm531

      Wow…gas light much?

      1. 2.1.1
        Jeanne

        How the he- l l is my comment gas lighting? I have a right to my observations & to post them, gas lighting is quite another thing.

  3. 3
    Stacy

    Evan,

    I sympathize greatly with men for a myriad of reasons BUT I refuse to sympathize because a man is trying to date a woman and he gets rejected because she is not what he is looking for. Such is life and no one needs sympathy for this. Men reject women all the time by not dating them if they are too fat, too old, too whatever. Men date women, sleep with them all the time and never make them girlfriends.

    So no, for this they get no sympathy. And I will dare say that if most men even attempted to date within their league, there would be much less rejection.

    1. 3.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Try putting yourself in someone else’s shoes – in this case, the half of the population who has to make the first move. Empathy is a much more valuable emotion than scorn.

      1. 3.1.1
        Stacy

        Evan, I am not scornful at all. In fact, I love men and think that many of them are absolutely wonderful. And, apart from my asshole ex husband, most men I’ve met are actually pretty cool human beings and I would even go as far as saying that I prefer the company of men even more than women in general.

        I acknowledge that it is tough to make the first move and to get rejected many times. But I will not have empathy for men in this regard because in my opinion, most men get rejected over and over because they constantly go after the same group of women. I have seen forum after forum in here where men say constantly, even when they are in their 50s and 60s, that they are not attracted to women their age or over a certain weight.  Men tend for the most part, to punch way over their weight. So why must I feel empathy when it’s something they can control? So sorry but if I do have empathy for  men, I will leave it for those with shitty circumstances where something can’t be changed or isn’t easily changeable (the guy who is too short, the guy who wants love but gets rejected because he doesn’t  make enough money, etc.)

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          Still not feeling your empathy. Just more excuses as to why you think the majority of men don’t deserve it. Glad we had this discussion. You made my point better than I could.

        2. SS

          Because women are swimming in a sea of men with empathy.

        3. Roland

          I’m a 45 year old man. Divorced 11 years and have had 2 long term(2 year relationships). I acknowledge and own %100 the difficulties I’ve brought to these relationships….(but who doesn’t have a few challenges right?)…but in the end have been serverly disappointed by the immaturity of the women in my life. I think I’m a good looking man, in good shape and successful. I’m kind, considerate and patient beyond the point I honestly should be at times. But, I also have children. 2 of them. Even though I’m 45 I’d like to have more but finding a woman I’m attracted and is attracted to me and willing to date someone my age who has children is next to impossible. Also?….in my experience most divorced/single women have so many issues that are on unresolved that even though they might give me a chance for a while, in the end they bail because they are afraid. This sounds fatalistic but I feel women think they want good men but only ones they can form out of clay, bake and make from scratch..not those of us who already exist and have great built in qualities like experience, patience, success and a true willingness to love. But that’s just me and me experience.

      2. 3.1.2
        Jeanne

        Feedback

        Empathy | Definition of Empathy by Merriam-Webster

        https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/empathy

        Cached

        Definition of empathy for English Language Learners. : the feeling that you understand and share another person’s experiences and emotions : the ability to share someone else’s feelings.
        I AM NOT A MAN SO HOW CAN I SHARE A MAN’S FEELINGS???

        Definition of sympathy for English Language Learners. : the feeling that you care about and are sorry about someone else’s trouble, grief, misfortune, etc. : a sympathetic feeling. : a feeling of support for something. : a state in which different people share the same interests, opinions, goals, etc.
        I CAN FEEL SYMPATHY- SORRY EVAN, I THINK YOU CHOSE THE WRONG WORD :0(

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          MY APOLOGIES FOR USING THE WRONG WORD. THANKS FOR MISSING THE POINT OF THE ORIGINAL PIECE. WELL DONE!

        2. Jeremy

          It is not the wrong word.  If we were discussing the feeling of being kicked in the balls, you could offer sympathy but not empathy because you don’t have balls (presumably).  But all of us, men and women, have felt rejection if we are of a certain age.  One can extrapolate those feelings to empathize, because those feelings are not exclusive to men.  They are just experienced disproportionally by men.

           

          Now, the really interesting thing (to me) is why you would have chosen to make the comment you did, and why you felt the lesson in vocabulary was appropriate or important….I used to like making comments like that until life taught me that making someone else wrong doesn’t necessarily make me right or important.

        3. Jeremy

          Sorry for the double post, but I didn’t want to end so negatively.  Your posts below about your online dating experiences are interesting and add important perspective to the discussion.  Certainly I can imagine an attractive woman having problems with online dating and being the initiator.  Luckily, though, she can usually fall back into the role of responder and not lack for attention – would you say that’s accurate?  Now imagine if you couldn’t…

        4. Jeanne

          Sorry Jeremy, IMO sympathy is more accurate than empathy. I may have equal rights to a man but I am not equal. My DNA is xx not xy, my hormones are diff plus my brain is wired very differently as well. I will never experience a man’s experiences the same way he has, the same way he will never experience menstruation, PMS, pregnancy, morning sickness, childbirth or menopause.

           

        5. Jeanne

          Jeremy: “Certainly I can imagine an attractive woman having problems with online dating and being the initiator.  Luckily, though, she can usually fall back into the role of responder and not lack for attention – would you say that’s accurate?  Now imagine if you couldn’t…”

          TY I appreciate your comments!

          If I were looking online, I’d have to downplay my looks. If I initiated, no response or “what is wrong w/ you that you are looking or initiating w/ your looks” (like a very attractive woman can’t be shy, introverted, or aspie-ish) & the few men who do initiate are the creepy player types…the real men assume I had 10 dates every weekend or a husband/fiancée that I was cheating on or expected a 10K ring after the 3rd date. Another man assumed I was one of the 2% in a basket of deplorables. bla bla bla

          Wish I would have saved some of the emails I got over the years of doing OLD. What I can recall was being ripped a new one bec. I was accused of “using your daughter’s pictures” (I don’t have a daughter but am old enough to have a daughter that is dating) fake pix, photo shop, going to want to order all kinds of drinks & dinners at expensive restaurants, bla bla bla.

          Finally, a male friend who was very savvy sat me down & told me I was an 8-9 acting like a 2. He was right, not only that, I was thinking like a 2. Once that changed, my luck w/ the opposite sex seemed to change & I did VERY well IRL. Learned to observe body language & about men in general (& women too & how they can c#ckblock)

          A good looking female friend has a handsome BF who would tell her he thought good looking women got the red carpet treatment & a bigger slice of the pie. She said, no, all you get is a sliver & people around you want to poke holes in your sliver, bec. they are resentful.

          I hate to say it, but it describes 80% of the people around me. My current partner said he would see when we were out in public that women would act very negatively just by us getting on an elevator (bec. their husband gawked at me it was my fault?) & men acting like horn dogs (at a casino whenever he went to the men’s room, the second I was alone men would approach) That kind of nonsense.

          I am older but look quite a bit younger for my age, so that had lots to do w/ it. Competitiveness among younger women seems to exist but not as strongly as w/ older women who are try to sell themselves before their expiration date  :0(

           

    2. 3.2
      CaliforniaGirl

      My Match account was hacked and they changed some information, after my account was restored, my desirable age range was 18-99 and I didn’t notice it for a few days. I am 40 and I received dozens of emails from men in their sixties, the oldest I think was 73, saying that they want to meet me. Do we count these men in the rejection statistics as well?? 🙂

    3. 3.3
      sterling

      Lets go back to the topic and not get sidetracked.  Not saying you are not right however, we know that men reject women and women reject men.  What has helped me in understanding and see Evans side of this is I have a son who goes through everything above and more.  Does this mean that I unconditionally agree with him (son)?  Heck no, it means that I have empathy/sympathy into what a guy goes through from the male standpoint.

      And yes generally most times it is the male that is the pursuer.  And quite frankly I don’t care how you slice it, it hurts to be rejected from either side.  Puts a blow to your ego.

      1. 3.3.1
        Chani

        This. We can all empathise with being rejected and misunderstood. We can all empathise with being assumed to have nefarious, short term intentions (ie. if we’re a woman, all we want is easy money. If we’re a man, all we want is sex).

        There are people of both genders who simply long to enjoy someone’s company. This is true whether we also need money or sex. It’s not like the two are mutually exclusive. It’s not like either she’s going to be good looking, or she’s going to have a great personality and be loyal.

        Likewise, it’s not like a man’s either going to have money or be looking for someone to love and be loved by.

        …I wonder what percentage of prostitutes and their potential clients get rejected? That happens when either she doesn’t have what he’s looking for or she does but he can’t afford it. But isn’t dating supposed to be different to prostitution? I thought it was, but some of the comments from women here leave me wondering.

        The only people who can’t empathise with the struggle (of either gender) to find love are psychopaths (of either gender).

  4. 4
    KK

    Evan said, “I would love to hear you offer a sentence of sympathy for what the average man must go through to get a second date”.

    I have no idea but it must really suck. I do have sympathy for guys who sincerely want to form a genuine connection with someone and get rejected repeatedly.

  5. 5
    Stacy

    Case and point, there is this guy at  my church. He’s a doctor (I know because he wears his white MD coat and he is the point person in case anyone needs medical assistance). He makes passes at me all the time by flirting or making comments (nice comments, nothing disrespectful but it is clearly high interest).But he is also around 55 years old and looks like a turtle. I am over 20 years younger than him. You don’t see women doing this foolishness. But for some reason, he is convinced that hitting on me is a good idea. So of course he gets rejected. Why can’t he go out with an attractive 50 year old? But nooooo, he just has to think that I will somehow find him remotely attractive.

    1. 5.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Your extreme example says nothing about men your age who put themselves out for rejection every day. Amazing that all you can summon is some shitty story about a clueless man. Stop defending yourself for a moment and be a human being.

      1. 5.1.1
        Stacy

        Evan, you know damn well that this example is not an extreme by any  means. This is the NORM for men. You have female clients so you should know this better than anyone.

        1. KK

          Hi Stacy,

          Not sure if you remember a past commenter named Obsidian. He was a short, middle aged, blue collar, unattractive, overweight black man with a pretty shitty disposition. He didn’t care that most women saw him as a 3. He wanted 10’s. As you can imagine, (or maybe you remember) no one had any empathy for him.

          Anyhow, awhile back I was having a conversation with some friends and I asked one of the guys about another guy that wasn’t there. He basically said he hadn’t been out much and that he was probably still licking his wounds from his latest romantic disappointment. Apparently, he had been heavily pursuing a 9 (He’s probably a 6?) and got rejected pretty hard.

          Well, of course, the other two ladies and I said, “Awww, that’s too bad”, and immediately went into our spiel about dating in your league… yada, yada, yada… Guy 1 says, “Y’all just don’t get it. Any one of you could easily get any guy you wanted”. (And while I think that’s a bit of a stretch), I understood his point.

          Stacy, you’ve commented before that you’re very attractive. So your “league” even if you were to shoot low, is still going to be an attractive man. So how would you feel if you were a 4? Your league is going to be 3’s and 4’s. If you’re lucky, maybe a shot with a 5. And while we can all agree that it’s a poor dating strategy to shoot outside one’s own league, I do tend to have more empathy now.

        2. Emily, the original

          KK,

          So how would you feel if you were a 4? Your league is going to be 3’s and 4’s. If you’re lucky, maybe a shot with a 5. And while we can all agree that it’s a poor dating strategy to shoot outside one’s own league, I do tend to have more empathy now.

          I have a friend who is a 5. Her husband is a 4, but she has described him as handsome many times. I honestly believe she thinks he’s hot. I have another friend who is a4-5. Her husband is about the same and she describes him as “very cute.” I don’t think either of these women are lamenting marrying a man so decidedly average. They don’t see them as average. I work with a man who told me what female coworker he thinks is the most attractive. I was shocked in that she is a very average-looking middle-aged woman, and there are women I work with who are far more attractive. Surely there are average-looking people married to other average-looking people who are happy and find their partners attractive.

           

        3. KK

          “Surely there are average-looking people married to other average-looking people who are happy and find their partners attractive”.

          Absolutely, Emily.

          But the post was about empathy. So are you able to only have empathy for guys who get rejected by women in their own league or can you also summon a little empathy for guys that get rejected by women outside their league?

        4. Emily, the original

          KK,

          So are you able to only have empathy for guys who get rejected by women in their own league or can you also summon a little empathy for guys that get rejected by women outside their league?

          I can have empathy for repeated rejection but we all have to understand what we have and what we don’t.

        5. Evan Marc Katz

          I’m sure that’s how you’d feel if you put yourself out to get rejected repeatedly. “Serves me right. I was shooting out of my league.” Remember that next time a man passes you up. He was out of your league. You shouldn’t have aimed so high.

        6. Emily, the original

          Women experience rejection, too. If I was repeatedly throwing myself at some 22-year-old, college-football-quarterback hottie, should I be surprised at his rejection?

        7. Evan Marc Katz

          More extreme examples that have little to do with the reality of the men for whom I’m asking you to summon sympathy. But, by sll means, continue with the straw man arguments.

      2. 5.1.2
        Shaukat

        There’s also no evidence that the nearly 2,500 men surveyed were rejected because they were shooting above their league. Rejection takes place within leagues as well. Btw, I don’t believe that every time a woman gets rejected for a date or used for sex it’s because she was aiming above her league either.

        1. KK

          I agree with you, Shaukat. I only mentioned my story about “leagues” because it gets thrown around here a lot as one of the number one reasons for rejection, but you’re absolutely right.

        2. JB

          ” Rejection takes place within leagues as well”

          Truer words were never spoken. Heck I get rejected occasionally by all leagues. I do ok though.

      3. 5.1.3
        CaliforniaGirl

        Btw, men my age do not contact me. If I look at almost any profile of the guy on Match who is 38-45 (around my age), their age ranges are usually from 24-34 or even 32.  The average age of the guys who write to me is 51. I did the math. Yes, all the guys over 50 are rejected by me as I can predict that most guys in the 38-45 range are rejected by 25 year olds they are trying to hit on.

        Should I feel empathy that a guy who is older than me sets his upper limit to 32 and then cries that he is rejected? I am automatically rejected by almost all the guys who are even 5 years older than me.  They don’t even visit my profile because I am not in their searches.

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          You are not rejected when they don’t write to you. Take action by writing to scores of men, get ignored 70% of the time and you’ll have a better idea of the male dating experience.

        2. Yet Another Guy

          If you are in your forties, then you should not be rejecting guys who are 50.  It is not like you are in your early twenties passing on a guy who is 30.  You are probably one of those women who has an age range that that is +/- 3 years of her own age and wonders why her pool of suitors is so small.  You are not a young woman.  You are what the Red Pillers refer to as “post wall.”  Your sexual capital is much lower than that of younger women. You need to increase your age.

          By the way, while I do not chase women younger than 45, they do contact me. I politely inform them that I prefer to be with a woman who has a few more miles in her rear-view mirror.

           

        3. Christine

          CaliforniaGirl, I’m just curious, have you tried writing to men in your preferred age range?  I got responses about half the time when I did it, even from some men who had a younger stated age range than me (I did online dating from my early 30s to mid-30s, until I met my husband).  I also hedged my bets by also writing to the men who included me in their age range.

          I found that some men really are rigid about their age preferences–while others, for whatever reason, were open to meeting me despite their age range.

          I’ve also known male friends who put down a younger age range, because they wanted women who had never been married before and had no kids.  They assumed (rightly or wrongly) that most women in that category would be younger, so they put a younger range down.

          However, then when they got an email from a 30-something, never married woman without kids, they were open to meeting her, despite what they had put down for the age range.  In my own experience, not all men are equally rigid about their stated age range.  Just some thoughts from my own experience

           

           

           

           

           

           

           

           

        4. CaliforniaGirl

          Christine,

          thank you but I think it’s a different experience when you are 40. Guys who are exactly my age, 90% of them have 25-34 range and I think being 6 years over is too much to ask. I only write to guys when I am exact match to their basic criteria and I didn’t calculate response statistics but some answer, some don’t, some answered months after I first wrote to them.  I do have 5 years down and 7 years up in my age limit and I am not open to date someone much older, sorry, my parents had me very young and my dad usually looks better than those older guys who write to me. 🙂

        5. John

          CaliforniaGirl

          Most guys like younger women. Most women like guys with a good, stable job. It is just reality.

          I had a female friend who is 45 years old. She only dated guys in their earlier 30s. These 30 something guys were broke, immature and had barely left their parents basement.

          All her young boyfriends always left her for a younger woman and she was cluelessly shocked and heart-broken every time.

          I told her to try dating guys older than her. She turned her nose up in disgust.

          I gave her some viable reasons for doing so and she ended up dating a 55 year old guy who was good-looking, smart and quite wealthy.

          Her and her older boyfriend recently went on the trip to Italy and stayed in nice hotels instead of hostels. He also has his own home and a car that isn’t in the shop every week.

          She thanked me for convincing her to date a bit older.

           

           

        6. GoWiththeFlow

          John,

          Your female friend’s boyfriend has other characteristics that compensate for his being outside of her preferred age range.  He’s “good looking, smart, and wealthy” and also apparently generous.

          If this older gentleman had had the characteristics of her previous 30 something love interests, “. . . broke, immature and had barely left their parents basement” he would have gone into the oh hell no pile immediately.

        7. CaliforniaGirl

          @John,

          somehow I met more broke and very cheap older guys in LA (through OLD) than younger guys, whom I meet at tech events and meetups and they are all far from being broke or immature. Quite the opposite, some of them don’t want to have kids and are open to date slightly older good looking women. I tried to find older guys but our lifestyles didn’t match, I don’t like to sit home all weekend and watch sports and have sex once a week and somehow that’s what you get from older guys after few months of dating. So, I am dating a smart, mature, open minded and good looking 34 year old, whom I met in real life and didn’t take seriously but somehow he behaves like the best boyfriend and I just enjoy it for now.

        8. GoWiththeFlow

          CG,

          Congratulations and best of luck to you and your honey.

          YAG said he couldn’t understand why an obese woman couldn’t see the obvious that they are a lifestyle mismatch with him.  What he didn’t see is that making a blanket statement that a 40 year old woman should not turn down a 50 plus man may be problematic because of a lifestyle mismatch as well.

          Some 40 year old women may still want to have children while a 50 something man has older kids already and wants nothing to do with the diaper scene.  Or a 40 year old woman may have young kids and wants a single dad who totally gets that because he does too.  Then there are energy and health issues like you mentioned.

          This subthread reminds me of Evan’s post about the man in his early 40s who wonders why women in their early to mid 30s don’t respond to him.  Evan said that what the guy was missing is that what he wants in a woman has no bearing on what those women want in a man.  I think telling a 40 year old that she “should” date a 50 plus man is an example of this.  Date these men because that’s what these men want.  It has no bearing on what the woman wants.

          Sure if a 40 year old woman is open to 50 plus men, she will greatly increase the number of guys who are interested in her.  But if she won’t mesh with a huge chunk of those men because of lifestyle issues related to the age gap what good does it do?

        9. CaliforniaGirl

          GoWiththeFlow,

          thank you. 🙂

          I never even dated guys in their 50s, late 40s was the oldest and our lifestyles and temperaments already did not match, especially the sex part. In my social circles, where most people work in tech and have advanced degrees, women prefer to date their peers and to have compatible lifestyles. I don’t know even one woman in my circle with education and a good job with a guy who is much older. Not even one. And all other women I know (4 in total), who are with older guys do not work and are taken care of by their quite wealthy husbands/boyfriends.  And the bigger the age difference, the wealthier the guy 🙂 Oh, and two women cheat on their husbands with much younger guys and I don’t know about the other two, we are not that close.

          Few months ago I met a guy at tech event and he asked for my number. I wasn’t too excited about him but I had a feeling that I saw him somewhere. I came home and checked Match and yes, I had him in my favorites but never wrote to him because his upper limit was 34. He was 43 with two small kids and 50% custody. Whatever.

      4. 5.1.4
        Jeanne

        The story she tells is very common. Years ago I put an ad in Yahoo personals & an 86 year old widower who looked like GRANDPA from the Muensters wrote me a detailed letter…about his PENIS!

         

      5. 5.1.5
        David Sorensen

        In most ways I agree with Tracy. Being a man I empathize with other men, being human, I sympathize with Tracy and other women. Rejection is rough regardless of gender but rougher on those who accumulate more rejection than others compounded by a declining ability to continue to rationalize and accept their own self-worth. While not everyone (no one?), when first rejected says, “I need to figure out who I am, when was I birthed, my age, what is my common social milieu, what are my genetic factors, what does the relationship I have experienced with my peers, siblings and parents have to do with my current mental, emotional and spiritual demeanor?”

          What man or woman looks at their habits and disdains the erroneous ones? What person first says, “I accept responsibility for my part in being rejected? What can I do about my affronting habits, my predispositions and my predilections? If I cannot presently change my economic situation, my physical challenges, my race, my intelligence quotient; what parts of me are of value or can be changed now or if deemed positive accentuated.?”
          I am 68 years old. I’m not dead, I’m not struggling with still being alive, I am still plugging away, still thinking I can, still dreaming, still wanting to hold someone in my arms, still knowing what love is, knowing it isn’t out there, any more or less than it is inside of me.  I don’t desire to hurt anyone, or be hurt. I don’t want to feel like love is a battlefield strewn with broken trust and wounded hearts; that collateral damage is inevitable and unavoidable, if that is so, I’d rather stay home.
         
        I no longer have approach anxiety, yet I have little to no interest in approaching in anything but a friendly and helpful manner, a human female whose age falls outside my conscious remembrance of my age’s collection of social, historical and spiritual memories. Common grounds are one necessary component for a positive, productive, encouraging, loving, peaceful and lasting relationship. If I discover a person whom I am interested in “judges books by their covers” (no pic no reply) I quietly and cautiously with as little harm as possible withdraw. It is nobody’s job to fix others. Our jobs are to see ourselves honestly, “…to accept the things we cannot change, courage to change the things we can and wisdom to know the difference….” If one actually cleansed themselves of all their negative erroneous habits, they would no longer perceive them in their others. Personally I don’t know anybody like that   …alive today.

    2. 5.2
      Marika

      Which Stacy is this? In another thread you said you were 39…

      1. 5.2.1
        Stacy

        Marika,

        I am 39 and I made a typo earlier.,,was supposed to be ‘almost’ 20 years older and not ‘over’ 20 years.I corrected it earlier but for some reason, the post either was not allowed to go through or just did not go through.

        1. Marika

          Haha fair enough, Stacy.

          I just wondered if it was Stacy2 posting as Stacy and trying to sneak back in…

  6. 6
    Ali Allan

    I think that men publish great photos of themselves and are not so hot in the flesh and I agree with the previous comment that men aim too high sometimes.

    However, women can be too picky also – we have too many lists, no bald, good shoes, too thin, too fat etc.

    Male friends have told me about lots of false profiles of attractive girls, so I wonder if the men make contact half heartedly knowing they are ‘punching’ or the girls could be ‘catfish’…..

    Men should know that if they surprise women with their witty one liners or different random chat, the woman would be more likely to smile and relax into their conversation.

    And guys, do not ask ‘what are you looking for?’ That is another line for ‘I just want sex’.  If you are looking for a casual relationship that is fine, but there are other ways to bring that into conversation – even if I was looking for casual, I’d be totally turned off by that question.

     

    Oh, and don’t muck around – if there is a connection, arrange a date and meet sooner rather than later to establish if there is a spark!!  Ali

     

     

     

    1. 6.1
      JB

      “And guys, do not ask ‘what are you looking for?’ That is another line for ‘I just want sex’.”

      Now you know how we men feel when the first question out of a woman’s mouth is “so what do you for a living?” (which happened to me online today) That is just another line for “how much money do you make and have”.  Actually I  personally don’t really believe either of these to 100% true. There’s a little truth to both though.

      1. 6.1.1
        L

        I disagree. Personally I ask guys what they do for a living because it seems to me as though because I’m in a corporate environment, often guys who are not, do not relate to my “world”. It also says a lot about a person’s interests. Being in a certain position does  ot necessarily mean someone has money.

      2. 6.1.2
        sterling

        I disagree on “so what do you do for a living”.  When I ask that not only is it a conversation piece.  I want to know that the guy is not unemployed.  This question can go both ways

      3. 6.1.3
        CaliforniaGirl

        The first question of 99% of all guys is “so, what do you do for a living?”:)

        I, actually, abstain from asking this question because I was told I am viewed as a gold digger right away, so now all the guys ask me that first. Are they gold diggers? And as I live in LA, a lot of guys are writers, actors or movie producers who live with 2 roommates and work few months a year and I am not looking for a 40 year old struggling actor.

        1. ScottH

          This guy expects to be asked what I do for a living.  I’m proud of what i do and it’s a great thing to talk about.  If you don’t ask me, I’d be disappointed and wondering why.  What I do isn’t earth shattering and I’m not richly rewarded but we spend so much of our time at work, it’s a natural thing to talk about.  If both parties can’t talk about it comfortably, something is amiss.

  7. 7
    CaliforniaGirl

    Just happened to me literally yesterday: met him at the local inexpensive Italian. I ordered appetizer and a glass of wine and was absolutely ready to pay for myself. He ordered appetizer, main course and two glasses of wine. When the check came, he took my card and told the waiter to split the check. I paid more than I ate and was really pissed. Obviously, no second date. Don’t do that guys! 🙂

      1. 7.1.1
        CaliforniaGirl

        Evan, in the last 6 months not even one man paid for my dinner, not even one. And I was on about 15 dates. Women pay much more on upkeep and clothes and now I have to pay for their dinners as well??

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          Not sure where I wrote “you have to pay for men’s dinners, too.” I asked for empathy; you issued a complaint. How could I have been clearer in my request?

        2. Yet Another Guy

          @California Girl

          Women pay much more on upkeep and clothes and now I have to pay for their dinners as well?

          Women do not do that for men.  They do it for themselves.  I have a bunch of sisters and two daughters.  I know women pretty well.

        3. sterling

          I was out with a guy the other day and I paid the bill for all of us.  It took him by surprise.  And yes he is well off, but a guy should not have to pay all the time no matter how much money they make.  Was I trying to prove something?  No, I have a son who I listen to.

           

        4. GoWiththeFlow

          YAG,

          There’s a reason there is the stereotype that lesbians wear flannel shirts and have short hair.  They literally aren’t trying to attract men 😉

          You and other men have commented that women past a certain age “let themselves go.”  Consider that maybe it’s because they aren’t trying to attract men. What would they do if they were?  Wear fashionable dresses and heels, style their hair, and put on makeup and perfume.

        5. FG

          Flow,
          1 – those are hardcore butch lesbians (sorry for the descriptor). The pretty ones (usually on a temporary foray, btw) DO wear make-up. Amongst other things. What was it Jimmy Carr (non PC extremist, sometimes funny out of sheer gall) say? “Women are like spaghetti! Straight until wet!”  The ecuperable momentary lesbians are not permanently so, and are very fashion conscious.
          2 – So WHY would they use pre-menopause pics on OLD? Denial? Self-delusion? Yesterday, saw a photo (57). Messaged a bit. Eventually told her the pic was “too good to be true”. I had found her biz website and current photo. A 4 second endeavor. Photos showed some resemblance. No more. Far from truth and misleading advertising.
          Why are they on OLD seeking men if they do not wish to attract men? Do tell!
          Flow, they don’t “let themselves go”, they go! And there is little they can do about it! They wake up one morning, and a higher power decides to take ’em for a ride.

        6. Yet Another Guy

          @GWtF

          Consider that maybe it’s because they aren’t trying to attract men

          If your assertion is true, why do married women engage in this behavior?  From my personal experience, women engage in this behavior mostly to compete with their girlfriends.  Women tend to seek the approval of their girlfriends for everything, including men; hence, the infamous “girlfriend test” where a women seeks the approval of her girlfriends for a man that she is considering dating.  She is usually seeking the infamous “he’s cute” response.

          By the way, my daughters exhibited the tendency to enjoy shopping therapy long before boys entered the picture.

        7. DeeGee

          FG said: “So WHY would they use pre-menopause pics on OLD? Denial? Self-delusion?

          I see this on at least 30% of all women’s online dating profiles on the six sites I am/was on.  I search for women between 50 and 65.  And many of them have photos on their profile that are at least 10 to 20 years old.

          Personally I believe that it is self-delusion.  They want to believe that they still look like that to the world.

          I actually have dated one of them multiple times, who used a 10 year old photo of themselves on their profile.  Before our first date, she sent me an updated current photo, apparently so that I would know what she looked like when we met at the restaurant.  I thought she still looked perfectly fine!  I am 55, she is 56, I wasn’t expecting to date a 25 year old!
          Women need to get a grip on reality.  If a guy only wants to date 25 year olds, then it is self-defeatist for a 55 year old to put 30 year old photos on their dating profile, the gig will be up on their first meeting in person.  And any guy is just going to be turned off by that.

          I just find it self-defeating in that it turns me off from bothering to message those types of women on the dating sites.

          Imagine if guys photoshopped hair pieces on to themselves, or pasted their face onto Dwayne “The Rock” Johnson’s body.  The gig would be up the moment they first met in person.

        8. GoWiththeFlow

          YAG,

          “From my personal experience, women engage in this behavior mostly to compete with their girlfriends.”

          And just what are they competing for?  Could it be attention and approval from men?  Being considered the prettiest? A strong theme in Disney movies is female beauty competition and the message that the prettiest gets the prince.

          “If your assertion is true, why do married women engage in this behavior?”

          Because they like the affirmation they get from their husband and other men as well.  Because how much a husband values his wife is in part due to how much he is attracted to her.

          “So WHY would they use pre-menopause pics on OLD?”

          For the same reason men use 10 year old and 40 pounds slimmer photos, they are trying to increase they SMV on paper.  (Men hit their “wall” at around 43-45) It’s actually an acknowledgement they do know their true SMV.  They’re trying to work around it.

        9. Persephone

          YAG, my guy is thrilled at my outfits, always something meant to catch his eye. No, it is all for him, nkt for my GFs or sisters. He literally says, “Woooooow!” in appreciation.

        10. CaliforniaGirl

          Women do not spend a lot of money and time to look good to compete with their girlfriends, haha. Really? Do they put breast implants and do other invasive procedures for their girlfriends?? And believe me, men do not like “natural” look. One of my friends told me that his ex girlfriend never had a manicure or used make up. And that didn’t bother him but except manicure and make up there are other things, like facials, peelings, good creams and shampoos that do make a difference and he said he can see a difference between her look and let’s say mine and with every year the difference is more noticeable.

        11. Yet Another Guy

          @CaliforniaGirl

          Do they put breast implants and do other invasive procedures for their girlfriends??

          In  my humble opinion, nothing looks worse than fake boobs.  Fake boobs lower my opinion of a woman.  I can pick a woman with fake boobs out in a crowd (I have seen enough of them in the flesh).  I would rather a woman be a natural A-cup than a fake D-cup.  It just looks wrong after she removes her bra.  Besides remaining upright when she lies down, the areolas and nipples almost never match the cup size.  A woman with large natural breasts usually has larger areolas and nipples, and that is part of makes big boobs sexy.

           

      2. 7.1.2
        Nissa

        You know, this brings up the question for me: How can I politely, respectfully, appreciatively indicate that I want and expect men to pay the check when they take me out? My past compromise was to list free activities as possible dates, so that the gentleman in question had no doubt that I was open to non-monetary based dates. At the end of dates, I would ask “what is my part?” and hope that he would take care of the check (bearing in mind the gentleman’s finances and expectations; if he makes twice as much as me, I’m not going to worry about it).

        I say this because I’m topped out on my salary, and while I have many amazing qualities (humility not being one of them 😉 ) , having a salary that is enough for two people is not one of them. I do prefer a man that has enough money for both of us. It prevents him having to worry about it and money being a bone of contention for us. I’ve been very responsible for myself, but my budget won’t stretch that far.

        1. FG

          Quirky and dangerous expectation. Is it “the audition” (presuming phone convo out of the way but this is the 1st face to face), or a date? On audition, go Dutch! On a date, depends. There cases of false advertising. Not saying you do that. But why should a guy pay for a disappointment?

          Agreed you shouldn’t have to cover his expenses, nor is it necessarily a 50/50 split (I would not let a gal pay a sizable portion of my more expensive choices), but it shouldn’t be about splitting hairs over $2 either.

          Keep in mind that double the salary does not equate double the disposable income. And viable pairings should be able to discuss financial matters with ease.

          In this day and age, I expect a woman to participate. I state on OLD that I want a woman to be financially independent (from me, not wealthy). No issues with buying dinner, or covering a “weaker”position to travel. But after dinner, you might spring for coffee anddessert elsewhere, or drinks (not a binge on 21 y.o. Scotch). Fair?

        2. Marika

          Nissa, unless he’s suggesting really expensive places, I don’t think you can ask or expect in any reasonable way that the man foot the bill. Without coming off as a goldigger. If he does do it, it’s a bonus and lovely and very likely shortlived (first few dates), but that’s it.

          You don’t have to fund his lifestyle, but you’re an adult, you do have to fund your own, including your own dinner, imo. I can relate to not having a huge salary, but I would feel really uncomfortable making no contribution to dates.

          Not sure how old you are, but of it’s 35+, most men have other financial commitments that out rank you.

          I guess otherwise, sugat daddies could be an option. But if you want a relationship of equals, what you’re suggesting is likely going to turn most men off – even those who don’t mind paying – because you expect it.

        3. Nissa

          FG, is my springing for coffee and dessert elsewhere fair? Yes, it’s fair in the sense of tit-for-tat. I just tend to think of a man’s contribution as monetary/physical, and a woman’s as spiritual/emotional. That’s my personal paradigm. Partly because my Dad, who was single late in life, and who often did not know the right thing to do, but always found paying the bill for dinner a source of providing appreciation and showing feelings which he had difficulty expressing verbally. Also, I was married to someone who wanted me to foot the bill for his lifestyle – a big house, several cars, trips, etc. I know I want a relationship with someone who has enough money to pay for the things he wants, because I know my wants are simple and usually not based on money. So I don’t like bringing out my wallet for anything on a date. But I will happily bring things to a date that I bought before the date. This is similar to Evan’s idea that men care most about how a woman makes them feel. My bringing out my wallet on a date doesn’t always translate into my date’s feeling more like a man, more appreciated or more valued by me. I like to do things on my dates that DO generate that feeling, but that rarely translates to my paying a bill. If a man doesn’t want to pay the bill for a date, I’d much rather go on a free date, where we take a walk, meet at a museum or watch fireworks for example. No one has to pay anything. But during that time I am fully present – listening, nodding, smiling, answering questions, getting to know the man in question, with my phone in my pocket where it belongs. Surely that shows my date my interest and valuing of him more than paying a check.

        4. ScottH

          Nissa- let’s flip the genders on this.

          While you’re thinking “How can I politely, respectfully, appreciatively indicate that I want and expect men to pay the check when they take me out?“, he’s thinking, “How can I politely, respectfully, and appreciatively indicate that I want and expect her to blow me when I take her out?”  Sure, bj’s and money aren’t the same thing.  Anybody can afford to give a bj and even a strict vegan woman shouldn’t mind a few animal-based calories if it makes him happy.  Think about that the next time you’re out on a first date.  

        5. Nissa

          Marika, yes, I’m over 35, which is why a lot of the dates I’ve been on, were with men who had no issue whatsoever paying the bill. In fact, they often go out of their way to ask for second dates or suggest going more expensive places, buying me things, or going on trips, etc. I’m usually the one slowing things down and explaining that I’m interested in getting to know them, not in which place we are going for dinner.

        6. Nissa

          ScottH, happens all the time. Those who are willing, do. Those who aren’t, don’t. The guy in question texts at 11pm: Wanna come over? No one is twisting a woman’s arm to go. She knows that this is a pretext for sex. If she’s not interested, she declines. There are plenty of women who are interested in just sex. Just as there are plenty of men interested in showing a woman she’s appreciated and respected.

        7. FG

          You would not be amenable to buy dessert & coffee OR drinks (not “and”) after I spring $80-$100 on dinner?
          You find that UNfair?
          Wouldn’t date you very long, that’s for sure!

          I get your “man’s contribution as monetary/physical, and a woman’s as spiritual/emotional” but I disagree. Both parties cover both realms. Or are you still dating men who grunt instead of saying “I love you!” 😉 Instead of going out for dinner, he might also tender “Here! Have mammoth steak! Good!”  Seriously, from my viewpoint, I expect a little sophistication, and evolved expense management is part of it.

        8. Nissa

          FG, I said it was fair, not that it was unfair. I just think that if a man’s still thinking about what he’s spending, why not just have a free date, eliminating the problem?

        9. FG

          The problem you face in your prospectivve boyfriend’s eyes is not one of $ amount but rather one of pattern recognition and analysis, combined w a relative obsolescence of what you’re asking.
          I’ve heard (or endured) various stories, sometimes from friends abroad. So Juan tells me at some point “You know, it really pisses me off! My wife is educated, has a good job, and she makes more money than I do, but ALL the family / household costs are on me, while she thinks the money she makes is exclusively for her!”  Can you see at least a faint parallel?

          I don’t keep files on fellow contributors. So I don’t have an immediate “country of origin / culture / age / etc” (save for Stacy2… Had a mental image very early on).  Those factors actually do make a difference.

        10. Nissa

          I, and the men I’m dating, are from Southern California, USA. I’m of English and German heritage. (So I like things precise, and tea cures all ills. LOL). It’s an area where 80% of people (women included) make more than I do. When I was married, my husband either paid the bills or handed me the ones he wanted me to pay. Sometimes he would just say, “I need $500, do you have that?” Which I always found a way to have. BUT – he paid for every date we ever had – which mostly included meals at Taco Bell or the equivalent. I adored him.

          For me, it is literally not about the dollars. I’m perfectly willing to bring my honey some cookies, a book I think he’d like, buy him a shirt he admired, tickets for a show he’d like to see. The HUGE thing missing in my marriage was initiative. My husband rarely planned things, or made excuses as to why he couldn’t (instead of finding a way to make it happen). I want the man I’m dating to know his own boundaries well enough to know what he can give without being resentful, and money is one way to do that. By taking me on free dates, he can honor his own boundary in a way that costs only time. It shows me he can be a creative problem solver. If a man wants me to buy him something, I’d like him to ASK. To me, that’s a relationship skill that I would really value, because I want a partner that doesn’t expect me to read his mind. Please, TELL me what you want. I love saying yes, prefer saying yes, but guessing what a man wants has not worked well for me in the past.

        11. DeeGee

          Nissa said: “How can I politely, respectfully, appreciatively indicate that I want and expect men to pay the check when they take me out?

          How can I politely, respectfully, appreciatively indicate that I want and expect women to put out sexually when I take them out.

          Seriously?  I can’t believe that you actually posted that.  Are you admitting to being a gold-digger?  A princess?  You think that highly of yourself that you should always and expect always be treated?
          What I take issue with is the use of the word “expect“.
          If you are not at least willing to go dutch, and be surprised or joyful or appreciative that I pick up the tab, then I don’t even want to date you.  Sorry.
          I have been on just too many dates in the past 5 years where the women were utter princesses who expected the man to do everything and pay for everything.

          Nissa said: “I do prefer a man that has enough money for both of us.

          And there we have it folks… gold-digger.
          Sorry, I would never date you.  Or at least no second date once I found out what type of person you are.
          What other points in the “6 sixes” do I also have to have for you to gain your approval besides 6+ figure income?  6+ feet tall?  6-pack abs? 6 months since my last ex? 600hp+ sports car? 6+ inches below the belt?  You may as well lay all of your demands on the line…

        12. Nissa

          Oh, gosh, how devastating. I’m so troubled by that. Oh, wait, I’m not.

        13. Yet Another Guy

          @DeeGee

          What other points in the “6 sixes” do I also have to have for you to gain your approval besides 6+ figure income?  6+ feet tall?  6-pack abs? 6 months since my last ex? 600hp+ sports car? 6+ inches below the belt? 

          That is an interesting point of view.  I am what some people refer to as a weak six-footer.  I am taller than 5’11” even and shorter that 6’0″ even.  I am roughly 5’11.5″ in bare feet when measured early in the day.  Some guys round up, but I always truncate the fraction when declaring my height.  I have reached that conclusion that being a strong 5’11” (at least 5’11” even, not 5’10 and a fraction rounded up) must make one an honorary member of the 6′ club because I do not experience height discrimination, not even from women with heights up to 5’10”.   What is interesting is that women that 5’6″+ are more flexible when it comes to height than women who are 5’2″.

          Have you entertained dating taller than average women? Most women 5’6″+ have minimum height requirements that range from their height to around +4″.  That is reasonable.  Women 5’8″ and above are acutely aware of where the apex lies with respect to male height.  They almost always have a base height that is less than 6’0″, often just an inch taller than their own height.

          In the United States, 5’11.5″ and 6’0″ even are the 80th and 85th percentiles for male height, which translates to 1 in 5 and 1 in 7 men.  Couple this requirement with the need by a large proper subset of professional women to date a man who holds an advanced degree, and the pools drop to 1 in 50 and 1 in 70, respectively.  Half of the men in both pools are married, so women are looking at 1 in 100 and 1 and 140 men, respectively.  Add race, religion and pesky little subjective factors such as attractiveness, and the pools decrease in size to around 1 in 1,000 and 1 in 1,400, and we have yet to add income to the equation.  A woman has a greater chance of being struck by a moving freight train than finding love in either of these pools.  Being a member of either of these pools is an unbelievable advantage when it comes to dating.  Being taller up to around 6’2″ increases the advantage.  Above 6’2′, the advantage of height starts to drop off because there is actually such as thing as being too tall.

        14. DeeGee

          Nissa said: “blah blah …

          I have no doubt that you are proud to be a gold-digger.  You probably believe that it is your personal right to have and own Mr. Perfect.
          And you totally missed the entire point of my comment, which I knew you would.
          Had a man posted onto this blog what I extrapolated from your initial post but changed a couple of words, he would have been crucified by most everyone else and ran off of the blog.
          But that is our modern world.  It is perfectly acceptable for women to be princesses and gold-diggers.  It is the “you go girl!” generation.  But no man had dare say anything that could be construed as sexist or anti-feminist.  That is unacceptable of him.

        15. DeeGee

          Yet Another Guy said: “That is an interesting point of view.

          I didn’t make that up.  That is what is called the “6 sixes”.  It is the current list or metric than many women are using to determine the quality of a man.  Google it.  A fun read.

          Yet Another Guy said: “Have you entertained dating taller than average women?

          I have dated women from about 5’2″ to 6’2″.  All of them who were around 5’7″ and taller, were put off with my height of 5’9″, and a few of them said they would not date me again because of my height.
          On one of my other posts on this blog, I recounted the story of one women I met on a dating site, who is 5’7″.  She didn’t believe that I was taller than her, so she asked me to stand in a doorway in my socks, put a ruler above my head, and compared my height to hers.  Then she still said that I was not tall enough.

          Yet Another Guy said: “A woman has a greater chance of being struck by a moving freight train than finding love in either of these pools.

          My point exactly in many of my posts.  Most women these days have “priced themselves out of the market”.  Their demands in what they seek for a man are totally unreasonable.
          95% of women are only interested in the top 5% of men.
          Sure, they will sometimes settle for less than a top 5% man, but should a 5%’er wink in their direction, because of the inherent hypergamy in women, they will dump the guy they are with to try to move up.
          This is nothing new, it has been documented for centuries.  Proverbs 31:10 was written around 1000 BC.
          Since men almost always have to “date down”, I typically look for women who are around a 3 or 4 on a scale of 1 to 10 (I have tried up to 6’s and 7’s).  I will say that I have met some ok women, but in most cases they chose not to date me for various superficial reasons (like one or more of the 6 sixes), and some I didn’t continue dating due to big red flags.
          I’m 55,  5’9″, $90k income, very educated, Architect and IT Manager, own one company and shareholder in a second.
          And while I do get a decent number of dates, almost all women reject me for height, income, house, etc. etc.
          I get tired of repeating this…  I will refrain from doing so in the future.

        16. CaliforniaGirl

          @Nissa,

          I think when a man always pays, it changes the dynamic of the relationship and I am not looking for that kind of relationship. I want to pay for our entertainment because I also enjoy it. If a man wants to make me feel special and pay for my dinner, it will be greatly appreciated but if he always expects me to pay half and never does any gestures, I will probably won’t be attracted to him. I guess guys are attracted to younger women, women are attracted to guys who pay?

      3. 7.1.3
        FG

        Flow,

        In an LTR context, how much we men value a woman may have much more to do w common history than mere attraction to her. Though that doesn’t hurt.

        Disney movies are for children.

        Men age more gracefully than women. Generally speaking. 1M pages on Google, but likely quite a few duds. No, men do not it the wall at 43-45, we extend beyond that in staying power. Women do hit A wall at52-54. Some manage it very well, mot do not!

        Women compete with each other. Over 3M Google pages, but again, likely quite a few irrelevant duds.
        Was out on nthe town, many years ago, w my then gf (runner up of a major pageant). Bump into the actual winner (what are the odds). Bla bla “Oh guys, I’m supposed to meet (rather famous female singer at the time) for dinner. Come with?” So off we go. At the restaurant, I sat at the head of the table, my gf on my left, winner on my right, singer next to my gf, others rejoined us. The winner played footsie. I did not reciprocate. She draped her leg over mine. I ignored it. I wasn’t going to make a comment that would trigger a scene. I did tell my gf about it, and told her “Beware of that bitch! Never assume she’s a friend of yours!”

        A woman I meet nowadays could possibly become my everything (so to speak). And be beautiful in my eyes and consideration. That said, she can probably never be as attractive and stunning as my runner-up, and the winner couldn’t hold a candle to her. Wouldn’t be as young either! So?
        Women compete. And they are downright mean to one another. Did the winner actually want me? I rather think she was annoyed my gf had me. And that she didn’t have a date / bf / stand-in that night.

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          FG,

          You’ve written 168 posts in about a week. You’re taking up way too much oxygen here. I would encourage you to find a new hobby.

          This is a site for women who want to find love.

          The Management

    1. 7.2
      Persephone

      When will we start judging the quality of a man by his character?

      Let’s throw out all these metrics. Let’s throw out all these crazy lingos like sexual market value, pump and dump, Etc. They’re kind of gross. Let’s simplify this thing and see if we just like each other as people.

      1. 7.2.1
        DeeGee

        Persephone said: “Let’s simplify this thing and see if we just like each other as people.

        I totally concur.
        Over the past few years I have found dating sites to be, for the most part, toxic and depressing.  Probably for both men and women.
        I decided this summer that I was instead going to go to various mixers in my city to try my luck there instead.
        I am working on being the best person that I can be, fit and funny and as attractive (as I am capable of), and hopeful that it will work.  😉

  8. 8
    Alex

    This makes a lot of sense. It’s so hard to have empathy/sympathy for the opposite sex when so many of my interactions with them is negative. But we have to in order to eventually get a relationship.

    1. 8.1
      Christine

      I get what you’re saying because this is something I also struggled with.  I found it hard to empathize with men after some negative experiences with them (including one I wouldn’t wish on my worst enemy).

      One thing I found invaluable was talking to male friends and brother-in-law about their prior dating experiences.  Hearing from them reminded me that there are good men out there too, who also yearn for that connection.

      I wonder if it’s just a coincidence that I met my husband when I had really let go of my bitterness against the opposite sex.  In any case, it certainly felt better and made me happier.

       

       

       

       

       

  9. 9
    Danaellen

    They get rejected before the first date because

    1.  They make sexual innuendos

    2.  Send out mass emails

    3.   Don’t read profiles and/or send first messages such as how r u?

    4.  trying to get women 20 years younger

    5.  Don’t bother to complete their profiles

    6.  Pictures with hats , sunglasses and a beer

    7.  Don’t bother to google for advice on online dating

    8.   Can’t personally relate to another person

    9.   Write profiles describing how smart and funny their dead wife was

    10.  Refuse to ask for help about their profiles

    1. 9.1
      anon

      You forgot #11 – dick pics!

    2. 9.2
      RickAndMorty

      It sounds like you don’t even LIKE men, Danaellen, why do you want to date them?

      1. 9.2.1
        Christine

        I also ask the same thing, about anyone who doesn’t seem to like the opposite sex–why date people you don’t like?

        I have some gay friends who have the exact same complaints about dating as I had before my marriage  (or as my straight single ones do).  That showed me that dating problems exist no matter which gender you’re dating.  I really think dating problems aren’t a man or woman thing, but just a people thing in general.

      2. 9.2.2
        Persephone

        Rick and Morty 9.2, your post is an example of things that frustrate me. It sounds to me that all you’re doing is sending that post simply to get a rise out of her.

        Danaellen wrote a thoughtful post, and had a tone of trying to sppear to be really nice. I see nothing at all in Danaellen’s post that indicate she doesn’t like men. I have noticed the same things that she noticed, even though I really don’t do online dating that much. I don’t live in a closet, so yes I have, out of curiosity, scanned through some of those sites. She is spot-on.

    3. 9.3
      DeeGee

      Danaellen said: “They get rejected before the first date because

      None of your 10 points are me.  You sound frustrated or bitter.
      I never make sexual comments; I personalize each message I send out after carefully reading their profile and looking for common frames of reference; I try to date women 5 years younger through 10 years older than I am (50-65); My profile is always completed including multiple photos on all six of the dating sites I was on; I constantly fine tuned my profiles and I even received many comments from women that they liked my profile or liked my humor.
      That is probably why I get a 50%-60% response rate on my messages on dating sites.

      However, after messaging a few times, when I go to move forward and take the conversation to a phone call or coffee or a date, I get rejected typically because I don’t have one or more of the “6 sixes”.  Google it.

    4. 9.4
      Tyrone

      Well, I’ve never sent sexual messages or dick pics to anyone.  And while I was on old, I saw countless women that had unfinished profiles, pictures with sunglasses/hats on and thing of that nature. Let me share a few reasons why I was told I was being ejected by women that were forward enough to  share:

      I’m black.

      I don’t seem black enough.

      didn’t meet their height requirement (I’m 5’10”).

      too skinny/not muscular enough.

      same name as an ex.

      don’t drive a truck.

      Hell, I even got turned down by a woman because I REFUSED to send her a dick pic.

      But it must have just been all of those things I was doing wrong.

       

      1. 9.4.1
        Danaellen

        Thank you for sharing your experiences. It was a real wake up call because I had many faulty assumptions.  You sound like a real nice down to earth guy. I wish you well. I guess the unpleasant experiences  and/or responses just come with the territory of online dating. It’s a random crap shoot of strangers being thrown together.

  10. 10
    Danaellen

    Yet despite all this rejection they refuse to get help, coaching , improve their online dating skills or god forbid , try to. understand  women.  Empathize?

    1. 10.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Or don’t empathize and continue to be angry at men all the time. Whatever works well for you!

      1. 10.1.1
        Persephone

        Dear Evan, normally you’re pretty much spot-on, but this time you seem to be off. I do not see where Danaellen’s post with her 10 points was angry toward men. I have seen a handful of article stating exactly the same thing. They might be articles with titles such as, “how men can write better online dating profiles.” She was not targeting it toward anyone specific. I’ll say this again. If the shoe doesn’t fit, why are they trying to wear it?

  11. 11
    Shaukat

    The comments from most of the female posters on this thread (except for kk) just illustrate their utter cluelessness when it comes to the male experience in this area. And no, I’m not bitter, when I was OLD I was pretty good and could line up dates fairly easily, but there was still likely more rejection than most women on the medium have to experience. For those of you who are doubting this fact, or think it has to do with some deficiency in the guy’s profile, try your own experiment: take two pics of what you consider to be an average male and average female, create two equally bland profiles on any dating site, and then check back in a week to see who has more messages/offers. Better yet, send out messages using those profiles and see which one has an easier time setting up a date. Maybe then you won’t espouse caricatured explanations based on idiotic, extreme examples of some guy hitting on a woman twenty years his junior.

    It would be interesting to see the reaction if some guy expressed this same level of simplicity and lack of empathy when it comes to the struggles women face when dating: “So sweetheart, you got pumped and dumped again without commitment from some guy eh? Probably because you’re punching WAY above your league and lack even a modicum of self-esteem.”

    1. 11.1
      Marika

      There is a lack of empathy being expressed here and what you’re saying is fair, Shaukat. Men have consistently discussed their rejection online or lack of messages often enough here that it can’t be just due to the individual. That must be frustrating and I do feel for you guys. I appreciate that you all keep making an effort and approaching despite the rejection. The thread about ‘cold approach’ also showed that aome women don’t understand the courage it takes for men to put themselves out there, face rejection and come back for more.

    2. 11.2
      CaliforniaGirl

      What a woman feels when she is “pumped and dumped” is a little different than a man not getting a second date or replies online, don’t you think?

    3. 11.3
      SS

      You don’t think men say this??  What world are you living in??   This is why women shouldn’t have to waste their time on empathy for men they don’t know.  No.  Men need to try harder, not quantity over quality

      1. 11.3.1
        Evan Marc Katz

        Should men “waste time” trying to empathize with angry, bitter women? Or should they laugh and dismiss their female counterparts as you do to men?

        1. SS

           

           

          “Should men “waste time” trying to empathize with angry, bitter women? ”  They don’t.  “Or should they laugh and dismiss their female counterparts as you do to men?”  They do.

  12. 12
    Gala

    May be I am missing something, but what’s the tragedy here exactly? I don’t think 31pc success rate is bad at all.. it definitely compares to the rate that I experienced as a woman on match and bumble. On bumble about 60pc of men if not more never respond to me initiating the chat. Those are the men who already swiped right on me to begin with, so must have thought I was somewhat desirable? When I was on match, I would always send emails to men from my “daily matches” – the ones match deemed suitable for me, and I’d say 1/3 was about my success rate.

    Just because women get their inboxed filled with emails doesn’t mean anything, most of those men are undesirable in one or more categories.

    this is the age old problem that people who we want to date don’t want us in return. It’s the same for men and women. If you want to minimize rejection – lower your standards until everybody you approach is ecstatic to date you. If you want to maximize the outcome (find the most desirable partner) – lots of rejection is inevitable. It’s the name of the game folks.

    1. 12.1
      FG

      I’ve heard that many guys on Tinder / Bumble swipe right on everything. It is an odd application of game theory. By the time you message them, someone more to their liking may have replied, and that’s the diretion they’re heading.

      That said, in convos w an appealing gal who worked in the auto industry, she revealed that in her neck of the woods (our initial convo was an oddity in terms of location) men message a lot but fail to follow up and meet. There was nothing wrong w her (and a lot of things right) and she mentioned a handful of foot fetishists and one cross-dresser. Life is a comedy!

    2. 12.2
      Yet Another Guy

      @Gala

      Did you bother to write well-composed messages that demonstrated that you actually read their profiles?  Most women believe that they can get away with a “Hi,” “Hello,” or “Hi there” message, which places the onus for opening the conversation on the guy because if he does not respond with a well-formed message, the conversation is going nowhere quickly.   I no longer reply to these types of messages because the practice screams “I am intellectually lazy.”  Guys who send these types of messages have a much lower response rates as well.

  13. 13
    ann

    I’m sorry I’m missing the point of your request for empathy I think.  The stats you referenced are pretty close to what I experience as well (I’m a woman).  So I guess I empathize with all of us, male and female, on the online dating scene.   It’s tough.  How and why people react/respond/ignore others  has too many reasons to explain, and has more to do with themselves.

    1. 13.1
      Jeanne

      Ann, I agree, I am considered very attractive, yet when I pursued men, (in the past) I was rejected way more than 69%

       

      The attitude was that something must be wrong w/ me if I was the one doing the pursuing, or why are you still single…

       

      Women get rejected. In fact women who do NOT get pursued by single men around them are getting rejected bec. no one is even asking them out!

      1. 13.1.1
        Yet Another Guy

        @Jeane

        In fact women who do NOT get pursued by single men around them are getting rejected bec. no one is even asking them out!

        So, can men apply that same logic?  Passive rejection and active rejection are not the same thing.  If men are actively rejecting you 69% of the time, then you are attempting to date up because men respond to most of the messages that they receive.  In fact, a 69% rejection rate places you in the least desirable category on a dating site.

        Please view the female sender line on the graph linked below.

        https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1600/0*cWWqWB6MMEtu6SvX.png

        You could also be one of those women who believes that a “Hi,” “Hello,” “Hey there!,” or “Nice profile” message is enough to get a man to respond.  Men who write those types of messages do not receive responses either.

        1. Jeanne

          TY, but I can’t elaborate right now. I wish I knew how to add a photo of myself to my avatar so you would get my point. I just post hereby typing my name & email addy.

          I will say I am not doing OLD anymore, haven’t for years & didn’t really need to.

          No longer single either but enjoy posting.

          My point was when a very attractive woman emails men on a dating site, they reject her, thinking something is wrong.

        2. Jeanne

          I’m no longer single & haven’t done online dating in years…No way I know of to have my pic up next to my name when I post (to substantiate my appearance), but I happen to be a very attractive woman & when I did do OLD, men thought I was a fake or had 20 dates. I had many more dates from real life. Online, I was a wallflower.

      2. 13.1.2
        RickAndMorty

        Jeanne,

         

        Lol…..a guy declining to ask you out is not rejecting you. I can’t even comprehend how anyone can position a man asking a woman out and getting told ‘no’ and a woman wishing to be asked out by a particular man and he doesn’t as comparable scenarios.

        1. DeeGee

          RickAndMorty said: “… as comparable scenarios.

          (In my experience) Many women do believe they are the same.
          I have a number of female friends.  And I have had some of them tell me that “they felt rejected because guy so-and-so that they liked didn’t ask them out”.  They even say this often about events when they were younger or in school and some guy they liked was not showing them interest.
          And if you were to ask the woman if she had asked him out and he said no, I guarantee you will get a blank look of confusion from her, since she will believe that is the same concept to what she just said.
          With many women, to them, not acknowledging them is rejecting them.
          You just have to learn and realize that women think totally differently then men.  Over the years that I have had female friends, I have had to dramatically change my viewpoint when I am talking with them, in order to understand and empathize with them when they are discussing things about their life.

        2. Emily, the original

          DeeGee,

          “With many women, to them, not acknowledging them is rejecting them.”

          But it is a rejection. As a general rule, men still do the pursuing. If, for example, in high school, a young woman really liked a guy and he instead asked her friend out, she will experience rejection. He didn’t choose to pursue her. While it certainly doesn’t require the same level of courage that asking someone out does, it still stings pretty badly. I’m not sure why that’s hard to understand.

        3. Jeanne

          Rick & Morty,

           

          “Women get rejected. In fact women who do NOT get pursued by single men around them are getting rejected bec. no one is even asking them out!”

          I personally don’t feel that way,, bec. I did get enough attention in real life & have been pursued by men. However, a few years ago a female acquaintance who has had different experiences posed that point of view to me. She said you cant say yes or no if they don’t even ask.

        4. Jeanne

          Dee Gee,

          “With many women, to them, not acknowledging them is rejecting them.”

          I have heard some women say this. They are out & about in society & in social situations & men do not flirt w/ them or ask them out/pursue them. They then feel “rejected”.

          As an older woman when I hear this, I say nothing bec. it would be mean, but I think to myself, maybe these women need to step up their game & try to be more appealing to the opposite sex.

           

           

        5. DeeGee

          Emily the original said: “But it is a rejection.

          Then I am currently being rejected by every woman on the planet, and have been for all of my life.
          I jest.  😉

          I did in my post say that I do understand why women feel this way.

          Keep in mind that you will find almost no man (or dictionary) who will agree with this contextual use of the word “rejection”.  And the standard definition of rejection “the spurning of a person’s affections” (spurn = “reject with disdain or contempt”) also does not line up with what women perceive as rejection.  That is all that RickAndMorty is saying.

        6. Emily, the original

          Jeanne,

          “it would be mean, but I think to myself, maybe these women need to step up their game & try to be more appealing to the opposite sex”

          There are some women who will do well with men and some who won’t. The same is true for men. Some will do well with the opposite sex; some won’t. I’ve never had a problem attracting male attention, although it is not always from the men I’m interested in. But I would assume it’s is heartbreaking for a woman who receives no attention.

        7. Emily, the original

          DeeGee,

          And the standard definition of rejection “the spurning of a person’s affections” (spurn = “reject with disdain or contempt”) also does not line up with what women perceive as rejection.  That is all that RickAndMorty is saying.

          Ok. Call it being overlooked. Or not being considered. I’m referring to irl interactions. Not online, but I think most women have, at some point in their lives, had a huge crush on a male acquaintance in their social circle and watched with horror as he pursued other women. Or really liked one of their guy friends and listened to him ramble on about some other woman he is hung up on. Trust me: It hurts, and probably just as much as when a woman declines a date for men.

  14. 14
    Courtney

    I feel not only empathy but admiration for the men who are sincerely trying. It must be so hard to put yourself out there and get shot down but keep on going, day after day.

    I DON’T feel bad for the ones who aren’t trying, who are unrealistic and gross, but I don’t think that’s who Evan is asking us to feel empathy for.

    If anything, I feel even worse for the good guys who are trying and striking out, because they’re getting lumped in with the weirdos who are giving them a bad name.

    The men who are way off-base and weird are the ones we remember and talk about, so it’s easy to think they’re a larger part of the population than they really are. For example, I’ve definitely told so many people about the guy who asked me *out of nowhere* how many eggs I had frozen (I’m 30). 🙈

  15. 15
    Yet Another Guy

    I may have to get a second tub of popcorn because what we have here is full-blown female entitlement syndrome on display.  Women demand that men approach, plan, and pay, but only if they are the right men. Ladies, men do not have “right man” radar.  Men do not relish the idea of being rejected; however, rejection is the price a man has to pay to play the game.

    If anything, women are the gender that is clueless when it comes to SMV.  Men have to pursue; therefore, they tend seek women with equal or lower SMVs because it lowers the probability of being rejected. A woman who is continuously getting pumped and dumped is usually attempting to date men with a higher SMV. I see this dynamic play out on the dating sites all of the time.  Guys routinely date down SMV-wise because it makes getting laid much easier.  A guy does not need to be sexually attracted to a woman to pursue her for sex.  All he needs to be is horny.  Sex is sex to most men.

    1. 15.1
      KK

      YAG,

      What you’re seeing is not female entitlement. It’s more like a bunch of old coldgers comparing their aches and pains. One group thinks their back pain is excruciating and the other group thinks their knee pain is excruciating and they all think they hurt worse than anyone else. Then the physical therapist comes in and tells the group they’re going to have a discussion about knee pain…

      1. 15.1.1
        KK

        *old codgers

      2. 15.1.2
        Yet Another Guy

        Lol!  🙂

        I still believe that women are the more clueless gender when it comes to SMV.  I have received messages from a few extremely plump ladies that were WTF moments.  I even posted a non-shirtless gym photo to prove that I am actually athletically-built. Why would a plus-size woman believe that she has chance with a guy who works out at least 5 days a week?  Our life styles are radically different.  When I inform a larger lady that our lifestyles may not mesh, her response is always along the lines that I can be her personal trainer.  If a woman does not have the intrinsic motivation to exercise and eat a healthy diet,  a personal trainer is not going to help.

        1. fleurdl123

          “Even a cat may look at a king.”

        2. Noquay

          YAG and the rest of the merry crew:

          while I genuinely DO empathize with and always treat with kindness/respect heavier men (the vast majority in my 50-75 stated dating age range, ironically in the thinnest state in the nation) who contact me, I too have to state (learned from past experience) our lifestyles won’t mesh at all and they often get defensive. Ditto for huge differences in education and income levels, 20 something dudes, guys into redneck or pot-friendly lifestyles. Rejection works both ways; wanting someone who has attributes you yourself do not have doesn’t turn out well. One truly has to BE the sort of person you want to date, regardless of gender.

        3. sandra

          Who the hell knows why plump or obese women even write to an obviously superior specimen as yourself.  What I cannot understand is: why you or Noquay or anyone else even replies back to someone in whom they have no interest.

          DELETE THE MESSAGE. That is all you have to do to avoid a defensive or obnoxious reply to your “no thank you.”

        4. Yet Another Guy

          @Sandra

          That comment sounds like what I and Noquay wrote struck a chord.

        5. sandra

          YAG,

          No, I just do not understand why anyone feels the need to respond to a message from someone they are not interested in dating, especially if you  have received retaliatory messages in return in the past.  You do not know the person, you have never met, you owe them nothing. Delete the message and move on if not interested.

        6. DeeGee

          Yet Another Guy said: “When I inform a larger lady that our lifestyles may not mesh, her response is always along the lines that I can be her personal trainer.

          I am in exactly the same boat.  However I have on occasion dated larger women just because the majority of women have over inflated SMVs of themselves.

    2. 15.2
      Marika

      I’m a woman and I’m not like that. Please don’t generalise about an entire gender that makes up more than 50% of the world.

      (You’re the last person who should sit in judgement of anyone’s dating strategies, btw).

        1. Marika

          YAG

          There are women who are entitled, certainly. Are they most of the women in the world – no. Are women in the Congo entitled? Are women working in sweatshops entitled? Are women in abusive relationships entitled? Are the vast majority of women in my family and social circle entitled. No, no and no.

          There are also some men, on this site, who are very entitled, and have a massive superiority complex, and you are one of the worst offenders. Your laundry list of expectations before you’ll even date a woman blows my mind.

          The only way I can understand your comments (given you are so self professed intelligent), is that you don’t understand people, including yourself. And rely on statistics, trends and studies to try to make sense of the world. Instead of relating to people in an authentic and vulnerable way. Or taking the massive stake out of your eye before commenting on the splinters in others’.

        2. Yet Another Guy

          @Marika

          I can assure you that my list of requirements is dwarfed by those of the women I date.  My list is actually not horribly long.  There are things on which I will not budge such as I will not date a woman who is a grandmother (she is at a different point her life) or a woman who is not a college graduate (been there, done that, have the t-shirt and memories of mind-numbing conversations to prove it), but almost everything is negotiable to a point.

        3. JB

          Really YAG, no grandmothers and must have a degree? You’re missing out on many wonderful women. I’m wondering on your flexability on those depends on what she looks like? That’s ok more for me!….LOL

        4. Yet Another Guy

          @JB

          I do not care what a woman looks like if she is a grandmother or does not have degree.  All 8s becomes 6s over time.  I desire an educated women whose children are close in age to my own.  My children are entering their senior year in high school.   My preference is for a women between the ages of 46 and 51, but that is not cast in stone.

        5. ames

          Most American men are unattractive to most women but we date them anyway because relationships are most inportant. In Europe however, I find the majority of men attractive. Some is facial features but mostly it’s a healthy natural diet, stylish haircuts and classic clothing, light cologne and posture/body language. Meanwhile many Euro women are also more attractive than the average American counterpart. If this survey had been done abroad I think we’d see far different results.

        6. GoWiththeFlow

          YAG,

          The same data set shows men accurately rate women, resulting in a bell shaped curve.  But what men do is contact women in the top 30% looks wise.  Does this mean that men feel entitled or are clueless about their own SMV?

        7. Yet Another Guy

          @GWtF

          Does this mean that men feel entitled or are clueless about their own SMV?

          No, it is simply about rejection.  Guys are acutely aware of where they fall in the pecking order. They have to pursue. It is a lot easier to accept being rejected by a pretty woman than an average one.   There is nothing more humbling than being rejected by a woman with an equal or lower SMV.

          One thing I would like to know is if this messaging behavior is age dependent.  I cannot imagine an older man who is seriously looking for a partner shooting for the stars unless he is equally attractive or well-heeled.  It is just not worth the hassle.  For example, I was liked by yet another very attractive woman, and I passed because I associate beautiful women with debt.

          I spent my twenties with high-maintenance Barbies.  Those years were filled with chemical romances that burned white hot and extinguished almost as fast as they caught fire.  However, their lasting effect was that I found myself in quite a bit of credit card debt that took several years to pay down.  It was not all that much compared to the credit card debt that people have today, but it was hard-learned lesson.  Besides teaching me to never run a credit card balance if it can be avoided, that experience left an indelible mark on my psyche that equates beautiful woman with living beyond my means.  That is something I am no longer willing to entertain, so I now only date women in the 5 to 7 range who are girly, but are otherwise modest in their needs.  I can thank my ex for teaching me that a man does not need to be a woman’s bank account.  We were very good financial partners.

          The thing about women who the 5 to 7 range who are girly is that huge part of their attractiveness cannot be ascertained until a man meets them because their feminine energy is a huge part of what makes them so desirable.  While I came about my screening process through trial and error before I discovered this blog, it is eerily like the 2/2/2 rule.  The beauty of 2/2/2-like screening process is that it allows a woman’s feminine energy to shine.  It comes through in how she communicates, her word choice, how she pauses, her tone and inflection.  It is a beautiful thing.

        8. Yet Another Guy

          *who are in the 5 to 7 range

        9. DeeGee

          Yet Another Guy said: “Have your seen the OKCupid blog entry that shows that women actually believe 80% of the men on dating sites are of below average attractiveness?

          I have posted that link before on this blog as well.  I feel that this is simply one of the problems with online dating sites in general.  It either brings out/caters to people with that type of thinking, or it brings out a lot of the worst in people.  I don’t believe that the statistic is valid for people in every day life.

        10. Persephone

          YAG, you said you will not date anyone unless they have a college degree. Well I have a doctorate of jurisprudence degree. I’m dating and have fallen  in love with someone who has a sixth grade education. He’s one of the smartest man I’ve ever met in my life. He knows three languages, also. He is only 5 foot 9 inches tall, with a hand wave to DeeGee. The height doesn’t take away from the fact that he’s the most attractive man  I’ve ever met in my life. But he’s attractive in a way that wouldn’t seem conventional to the majority of people on this thread.

        11. Yet Another Guy

          @DeeGee

          It either brings out/caters to people with that type of thinking, or it brings out a lot of the worst in people.  I don’t believe that the statistic is valid for people in every day life.

          It has been stated in many articles that online dating often leads to shopping cart mentality.

           

        12. Alex

          @YAG and @DeeGee

          Not to nitpick – but this exact study also shows that, while men rate women on a bell curve of attractiveness (to be expected, maybe women should aim for this as well) 2/3 of men’s messages are going only to the top 1/3 of women.

          So, should the bottom 2/3 feel rejected? Not necessarily, but I think this study really illustrates that dating is hard for both genders, just for different reasons.

          I really feel a lot of empathy for the guys who try very hard and get rejected. And I hope they find enough success to keep their spirits up. But I also think there is a subset of guys who would do better if they cast their nets a little wider. Maybe message someone they find average looking but witty on a few occasions? Or a woman with an interesting job? After all, their personality is what makes a long term relationship work in the end.

    3. 15.3
      Stacy

      @YAG

      No one is entitled to anything and certainly never entitled to dates or even finding love. And reread what you wrote.You said a woman who continually gets pumped and dumped is usually attempting to date men above her SMV…okay, same for men…that is my point. Men are the gatekeepers of relationships, remember? If a man experiences consistent rejection, I would argue that it is because of this same issue.

      You also said that men don’t have to be sexually attracted to a woman to pursue her for sex.Now tell me why on earth would I have empathy for this? Funny how somehow a simple acknowledgment that men need to change their mindset to achieve better second date results means I am bitter.I am off the market now but I have gone out with men on first dates who have tried aggressively for sex on the first date, lied about age, looked completely different in person, stared at my breasts throughout date, couldn’t stop talking about sex, kept up with only texting after 1st date, wanted a relationship after 1st date (wish I was making this up) and all sorts of nonsense.

      I also had some really great dates.The guys who actually looked like their pictures, were respectful, and wanted to actually know about me all got second dates.My point is, I am yet to run into a woman who had a good experience on a first date that wasn’t clamoring for another.

      1. 15.3.1
        Shaukat

        Funny how somehow a simple acknowledgment that men need to change their mindset to achieve better second date results means I am bitter.

        @Stacy,

        I honestly believe that your myopia on this issue is so thick you could cut it with a knife. I’m a massive believer in self-improvement, but only when it comes from people who understand and empathize with the experiences of the people they’re trying to help. On a different thread you stated that your online profile was extremely short and generic and that you still received over fifty messages a week, despite the fact that you would ignore any man with a similar profile. It is that disparity that we’re talking about; I guarantee you that most men are not shooting for Victoria secret models. When I received messages from women online most of them were generic notes such as ‘hi,’ how are you,’ ‘what’s up,’ etc, which is a testament to how foreign the act of pursuing is for most women.

        Aside from a few notable and admirable exceptions on this thread (Marika, KK) I’m having some trouble wrapping my head around the lack of empathy here. The latest justification seems to be that because women sometimes don’t get approached by the men they like (passive rejection), they understand the male experience. If you honestly believe that then you can take a man’s general experience with rejection and multiply that by a thousand, since men, with few exceptions, don’t get approached. The myopia on this thread is the equivalent of a man saying that women don’t have a unique experience when it comes to street harassment or sexual assault.

        1. Marika

          My guess is that they see it as mansplaining or, ‘oh another upper middle class man thinking he’s got it tough’, rather than the actual intent: helping women understand men so they can be better daters and more successful at relationships. Which benefits us all!

          Whenever Evan or any man writes a balanced, thoughtful piece of information I can use to help me understand men, I’m grateful. And I put it into practice if I can. Unfortunately there are too many people on here (men and women) who are here just to point the finger and are breathtakingly blind to their own biases, flaws, hypocrisy and shortsightedness.

          Any woman who claims women get rejected more than men is clearly hurting from some recent rejection or has a badly written profile or is terrible at flirting. Because even in a country with laid-back dudes who aren’t great at making the first move, it’s very easy to get attention online as a woman. I’m lucky enough to be tall, blond and thin, but with all my friends, not one has ever said they get no attention. Whereas I’ve read many men’s profiles saying things like ‘is anyone on here?’ (not a great strategy of course, but symptomatic of their frustration).

          Ladies, if you’re getting a lot of rejection online from men, check out your profile, work on sending fun and flirty messages, be an interesting date. And at least offer to pay occasionally. It’s not rocket science.

          And men, come to Sydney and tell women they are beautiful and ask for our phone numbers. Once we finish dying of shock, we’ll probably give them to you (or at least thank you for making our day😊).

        2. Stacy

          @Shaukat,

          In an earlier post, I DID say I have empathy for men, but for other reasons. I ONLY have issues with having empathy with THIS particular issue because I feel that when men get rejected consistently for SECOND dates, it means they got to a first date. And from my experience and the experience of many many women I know (and from what I read), I have concluded that men don’t get second dates because they MOSTLY screw up the first dates with behavior that is unbecoming. So why should I feel empathy for something that a man can change by learning to be a better man in this regard.  I would say the same to a woman who keeps getting rejected consistently for SECOND dates.

          And when I was online, I had a one liner and STILL got tons of messages. That is no credit to men being more mature or any of that bullshit.  It actually proves how shallow men could be because I ONLY had pictures up (for the most part). I did not have to make effort because, not to be overly conceited, but I physically look like what MANY, MANY American men prefer (in both weight and face).  So of course I will get tons of messages because many men (at first) tend to think with their dicks. Not my fault.

      2. 15.3.2
        Yet Another Guy

        @Stacy

        Men are the gatekeepers of relationships, remember? If a man experiences consistent rejection, I would argue that it is because of this same issue.

        It is actually not the same issue. I have been rejected by women with equal and lower SMVs.  I have had much more attractive women ask me why asked these women out.  Women are more selective and much more critical than men.  A women will reject a man for host of things other than looks.  If a woman gets past a man’s eyes, she is golden.

        Now, let’s get down to brass tacks.  While woman are liberated, dating is not.  Women still hold onto the anachronistic belief that a man should pursue, plan, and pay if he is interested, but all a woman has to do to demonstrate her interest is show up.  The unwillingness of women to liberate dating means that men have deal with rejection.  It is also the reason why men are the gatekeepers to relationships.

        I have been out with with 5s, and I have been out with 10s.  I am a reasonably attractive man for my age. While Brad Pitt may have nothing to worry about, every women that I have met since re-entering the dating pool has told me that I do not look my age.  Many of these women are ten years my junior.  I do not have a problem getting dates.  I dated over fifty women the year I was separated, all of which came from online dating sites.  Most separated men are lucky to land one date off an online dating site because being separated as a man is akin to having the relationship equivalent of leprosy. 🙂  That being said, I have endured more rejection that most men.  Why?  Because I have had way more women than the average man.  It used to be a sore point with my ex.  As I have written several times on this blog, the men who get the most women get rejected by the most women.

      3. 15.3.3
        Shaukat

        I have concluded that men don’t get second dates because they MOSTLY screw up the first dates with behavior that is unbecoming.

        You’re wrong about this, Stacy. Most men don’t get second dates because either they didn’t break the chemistry threshold or because the woman was emotionally/sexually unavailable for whatever reason. The vast majority of men are not talking about dick pics and anal sex on the first date.

        1. Marika

          I think so too, Shaukat. The majority of first dates don’t go anywhere because you’re meeting a stranger and it’s not like when you’re 20 and all it takes to keep seeing someone is that they’re cute. It can be anything from they are too soon out of a relationship (or you are), or they mention they love extreme sports and that freaks you out, or they’re planning to travel for 6 months next year and you’re ready to settle down, they hate kids, they’re not funny (or you aren’t) etc. Your typical first date is fine, nothing scary, but either some deal breakers, boring or no chemistry.

          Dating is a skill. And while some men can be clueless on dates, from what I’m reading here, women can also act in quite wacky, needy or inappropriate ways that turn men off.  I know after my divorce, and with little dating experience as a result of culture, upbringing and being a serial monogamist, I was a too intense/too much over thinking /not fun and flirty enough date. I needed to learn to date better. I still make mistakes, but thanks to guys like Evan, I’m a lot better now.

          Plus I never had the attitude that it’s all them and not my fault. Which is a really dangerous attitude for either gender.

          If you’re consistently having bad experiences on dates, it’s not them, it’s you. Either your choice of dates or you’re doing something unattractive.

  16. 16
    ScottH

    Finally someone understands and was able to articulate how I feel-  not just the myriad rejections and having to spend my kids’s college fund on fruitless first dates but also having endured 2 (possibly 3) gut wrenching and psychologically stunting relationships with commitmentphobic women and spending tens of thousands on psychological remediation just to get out of bed a couple days a week.  Please visit my gofundme page.  Search for ScottH, middle aged wreck, and donate generously.  God Bless!

    1. 16.1
      Marika

      I’m truly sorry to hear that, ScottH. I hope things will get better for you.

  17. 17
    Yet Another Guy

    I, for one, will take a women who is a 5 or a 6 facially as long as she has a yoga or Pilates hottie body.  Women generally cannot do anything about their looks other than apply tons of makeup or undergo plastic surgery, but a hottie body is within the reach of almost every women who is motivated to seek it.

    1. 17.1
      JB

      See YAG and I’m just the opposite. Give me a cute face and smile and weight doesn’t bother me as long as it’s within reason. Not morbidly obsese but I do love curvy as well as in shape.

      1. 17.1.1
        Yet Another Guy

        @JB

        Ample hourglass is find with me. What passes as curvy today, no way!

        1. Yet Another Guy

          *fine, not find

  18. 18
    Red

    Based on my experience, I can totally say that — Yes. Men have standards too. And Yes, they try too shoot beyond their league that’s why they get rejected. I mean, c’mon my Badoo profile says: “I want to date/meet Caucasian men. Aged 35-55. Well established, witty and is also looking for a serious relationship.” I’m 38 y.o. Pretty. Educated and with a good career in retail. Then, I’m getting these “hey wanna hookup?” messages from some 23y.o. guys 😳

    Hell, will I respond to that? Like seriously…do these men really know how to read.

    1. 18.1
      FG

      “Good career in retail” to me would be Store Mngr. Or buyer for Neiman Marcus, or Macy’s. Or head office management. Still on the floor? There is NO bad job, per say. But that would not strike me as “good career”. In fact, a career and a JOB are 2 different things, and most people willingly ignore (or prefer to be blind) to that fact.

      What you ask for sounds (to me) like “Looking for a wallet!” “willing to date a guy 17 years older if he owns a 1) Porsche, or 2) a sail or speed boat, or 3) a house and a cottage, or 4) preferably all of the previous”.

      Educated is also becoming a fallacy. Getting a degree in the past 10-15 years is FAR from testimony to an education.

      Yes, in fact, men DO know how to read. What they read in your profile may be a huge red flag to many who fit the exact description of your vaunted “dream guy”!

    2. 18.2
      sandra

      Badoo?  Well, that says it all.

      Anyway. the delete button is there for a reason- use it and move on.

  19. 19
    FG

    YAG actually is close to the mark.

    Most of the women I’ve dated over the past few years have been walking disasters. Not in terms of looks, but certainly in terms of accumulated life-experience. Sorry, w-e bike rides don’t amount o much in my book. Offspring management? I would rate them as 4-5 out of 10. Emotional intelligence? 3-4? Income / net worth? Variable. Many women my age never took their lives in hand, waiting for Wallet Charming to cover them. On a post-date convo, one really pretty gal, then 47., (say 8 for looks) asked me why men didn’t want to marry, well, why no man has ever asked her. From an 8 for looks, her life achievements were a 5? Maybe 6. Emotional intelligence? 4. Longest relationship? 4 years! She’s now on the edge of 50. Still on the dating site. I surmise she will NEVER marry. She will find bump & grind partners, temporary, but not achieve much unless she gets REALLY lucky.

    Pump & dump cases were mentioned. And of course, “always the man’s fault”. Are you SURE? Some guys specifically seek a casual or NSA encounter, but many want more than that. They finally end up in the sack, getting to know the gal better, and find to their dismay that there is little or no contents!?! Or talent (in bed or elsewhere)!?! Or common ground. or common sense. The list goes on. Men may be at fault some of the time. The momentary object of their affections also.

    Here’s an amusign example… 3rd date, dinner my place. Hot and heavy turns to naked. Got the lady off 3 times (not bad for first foray). And during (what I thought was) a breather, I mention “Yo udo realize I haven’t had my release yet!?!” to which she replied “Talk about a boring conversation topic!”… NEXT…

    But here is a constant, with usual caveats about generalizations: in almost ALL cases, the women seriously overvalued their SMV (whether S is for sexual or social; both apply) by 2-3 points (on 10). Those who actually state on their profile they believe themselves pretty / good-looking MAY be, but usually not to the extent that they believe. In most cases, they would do well to let the reader be the judge of that. A pretty, shapely blue-eyed blonde may well be a 7 or 7.5. I have several friends who could not be bothered. Not their thing!

    Not to nail anyone! But a lot of the female participants who say (or think themselves) “hot” might not like an opposite-gender member’s objective assessment.

    Also, hate to point out a well-known “wall”, for many gals entering their 50s looms (play strident Psycho music from the movie OST) MEN-o-pause. Gives men pause. At 52, 53, bang. Crow’s feet turn to sinkhole crevices or crevasses, necks turn to wrinkled wrapping paper. And weight piles on (very often). As the onset tends to be sudden, I’ve even started collecting pics of before and (during?) after. Some miraculously escape.

    1. 19.1
      Marika

      If most of the women you’ve dated are walking disasters, that says a lot about your choice of women. Take a look at what you’re offering and who you’re chasing. It’s not the norm for most people you date to be barely functional.

      1. 19.1.1
        FG

        WRONG take on your part, but I can see how you might think that…

        I always have 1-2 hours of phone conversations before meeting. My job as a man, as I’m sure might be the case for a woman, is to discover and reveal problem areas. The sooner, the better.

        Disaster takes on many forms.

        Women with offspring are not often entirely rational about their “kids” and fail to promote emancipation, or fail to let go.
        The gal (business owner) with Sun Mon off, but , but can’t go anywhere or do anything on Sun because her 27 y.o. son comes over for dinner, w his gf (he lives w her, they both have good jobs), and mom cooks all day Sun because his gigantic “Care package” is his food for the entire week!
        The mom / grandma who has NO privacy because she recreates Xmas on a weekly basis. Throngs of people (multi generation) assembling at her place. I could see how her marriage failed. The guy got fed up!
        The other mom/grandma who babysits her grandkids 1 w-e out of 2. And it’s ok she’s happy w that. Not so much disastrous as challenging schedule wise.
        The 52 y.o. (roughly) with 3 university diplomas (good), a net worth of $50K (not so good) who wants to move to the boonies where she found her dream house (a steal at $150K) and she hasn’t found a job in those parts, but hey, think positive! Right! And buy lottery tickets, too?
        The (so far) 4-5 women who look nothing like their photo. But that I hear is common. Often a refusal to face a new reality. Or 1 case of “attempting to deceive”.
        A repetitive scenario of women who still believe themselves in their 20’s or very early 30’s, and expect proceedings to conform to an earlier youthful life. Cute, but mildly dysfunctional.
        A few wanting pre-date lyrical romance. With someone you haven’t met? Nor seen? Surely sensible and normal! 🙂 (No, I don’t date those: I find they live next to Marvin the Martian).
        The countless gals who think that you will bend out of shape like a pretzel to fit THEIR schedule / lifestyle, meaning the life/calendar they built because they were alone and sought to alleviate boredom. Include pets in that category. Cats are not so bad: a whole day or even long w-e is workable. Dogs? When no nearby person can dogsit? Hellish. Very constraining. But they will tell you they like or want to travel.

        Most such factors hardly fit into “should have seen that coming” but rather fit a “finding out the facts” upon meeting. I unfortunately regularly encounter cognitive dissonance. Some of that is perhaps needed to face life, and our choices. Too much of it makes us dysfunctional.

    2. 19.2
      fleurdl123

      That’s rather an obnoxious rant; what’s your point?

      1. 19.2.1
        FG

        A “rant”? No such thing. Pertinent comment and observations or experiences on the state of relationships and dating. If you saw those comments as ranting, I suggest you may be very young. Or easily triggered by fact, whether such facts are the fruit of anecdotal experience or wider statistical sampling. Obnoxious? The facts are not always pleasant or fitting of “tangerine trees and marmalade skies”.
        As a rule, if you are 25-35, you are in the sweet spot. Life has taken shape, you should know who you are, and who you meet. Have enough experience to discard the nut cases. And be able to meet a proper partner and build together.
        Past 35, the numbers drop drastically! People with secure attachment-modes AND intelligence have identified and latched on to someone they may well spend their lives with, and divorce is much more prevalent in the lesser educated and/or less affluent. Translation: a much lower % of people with bachelor’s degree and/or upper-middle class and above divorce.
        In 40’s and 50’s, who is left? A critical question. The answer, provided we do our homework in terms of eliminating undesirables (where and when they can be spotted) within a fairly close matching of social class, education, values and the like, leaves many unrealistic candidates. Being a man, I of course look at women. And find highly inhibited or even asexual candidates (some men would fit, but I reckon even disclosing such a fact might be a little too real, or those people simply do not recognize themselves as such), immature (education and intelligence do not exclude a possible lack of emotional intelligence), or damaged, or unavailable (often unconsciously), or manipulative, or lying (often to themselves), or willfully blind, or severely ensconced in an unusual segment (an example might be a significant % of skin area ink / body art), and the list goes on!
        Where personal choices are mentioned, fair enough, this is what YOU wanted to do! And the interface reality (with another person) may show that is not something they want!

        One (brilliant) clinical psychologist stated he dealt with real troubled patients. Mentally afflicted. He also suggested that for the “regular” folk who have ” problems” and seek therapy, for most, the nature of the problem is obvious, but they prefer to not confront it and avoid taking responsibility! As most therapists will let you drone on and never show/reveal responsibility. ongoing therapy becomes a veil or illusion of doing something about it!

        69% of guys rejected before a first date. But there are FAR more men than women on dating sites. Some stats suggest a 5:1 ratio (on normal sites, whereas on Ashely Maddison, 1,000 or 5,000 (or more) to one was reportedly more like it).
        So much more would be required to make that 69% significant.
        WHO are the rejects?

        1. Fleurdl123

          I am not that young, and am soberingly aware of the cold, hard facts of life particularly in dating. But somehow my natural optimism and appreciation for men’s efforts and Evan’s advice prevail.  While I love reading men’s comments on this blog to get their p.o.v. I am turned off by the gleeful hostility some exhibit under the guise of “preferences” and estimations of SMV.  Comparing a menopausal woman’s neck to wrinkled wrapping paper? Analyzing before and after pics to note her plummeting appeal?  You should know your audience; unless of course you feel unheard/unseen by women in real life so you have to make a ripple here?  See–just like you’re Woody Allen (but intellectual without the neurosis), I am a psychiatrist (without any education or the $250 per hour rates).

          I suggest neither one of us quits our day job.

        2. Marika

          If you can’t read over that and recognize how your own attitude and perceptions are influencing the quality of your dating life, then a blog can’t help you.

        3. Marika

          Sorry, my last post was aimed at FG not Fleurd.

        4. FG

          Marika,

          Your assumption seems to be that my dating life might NEED quality improvement. As you read through my often quite perplexing anecdotes, scattered through this article’s comments and obviously accumulated over time, tell me HOW the challenges and/or seeimingly incontrovertible  problems might have been earleir detected or avoided. Magic / wishful thinking and similar methods set aside, good luck with that! I mentioned reasonable disqualifiers, but people don’t have flashing warning neon lights revealing what are to me) causes for rejection (as in not worth embarking on an adventure with that person). You are free to select your own criteria, as I’m sure you do, whether conscious or not!

          I forge ahead and separate the wheat from the chaff. For someone like me, it just so happens that there is a lot of chaff and little actual wheat. Agreed, some of my chaff may be another person’s wheat. Good for them!

          My perceptions are not erroneous. My attitude, here laid out quite rationally and bluntly, may not please you. I even state in my OLD profile “Please have a minimum $150K net worth!” Do yo uthink it might be because I actually WANT a gal’s money? Are you daft? lol  Don’t overlook my age group. It is a minimum. Why? A small to large condo (depending on market location), a car, a little IRA or 401(k), reasonable savings, and even a few objects of worth. Nothing ming boggling. Does that shock you? We’ve crossed decades of tremendous growth. I expect a woman 45-55 to have somethign to show for it! Pragmatic. That’s all. Retirement looms. Would be nice to not enter a negative drag relationship.

          Back to quality issues: best have quality control on the person before you attempt to build something worthwhile and lasting. My current gal is 11 years younger, green-eyed, bright, and savvy. Fun, uncomplicated, and generally content. In spite of her earlier twisted experiences. She wasn’t the twisted party. And that reinforces my take on avoiding BS. Or unmanageable, irrational, life damaging choices.
          Cheers

    3. 19.3
      Yet Another Guy

      @FG

      I as well as a lot of other men have mentioned the how much menopause alters a woman’s appearance, but I have met women for whom the hormonal shift has not been as devastating.  They all appear to have one thing in common a clean diet (usually semi-vegetarian to full-blown vegan) and a lifestyle that includes regular exercise other than just walking (usually a combination yoga or Pilates with cycling).

      With that said, while some men win the genetic lottery, most of guys experience the male equivalent of menopause known as andropause as they round age fifty.  Andropause is marked by a significant reduction in testosterone production coupled with an increase in sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG).  The result is significantly lower free testosterone level because SHBG binds to testosterone making it unavailable for use by cells.  For most men, testosterone has declined to the point by age 40 where maintaining a healthy weight is no longer possible without a significant reduction in caloric intake and/or an increase in physical activity.  Male weight gain creates a double whammy situation because the hormone estradiol (E2) is aromatized from testosterone by an enzyme known as aromatase (E2 is the hormone that we commonly refer to as estrogen).  Aromatase activity increases as a man packs on fat cells; therefore, it becomes even more difficult to maintain a healthy testosterone to E2 balance.  The result is feminization of male features.  Men start putting on weight in their hips and chest (i.e., the reason why fat men tend to develop man boobs, a.k.a. gynecomastia).

      In the end, aging is tough on men and women.  Those who fail to make significant changes after age fifty are going to age more rapidly than those who adopt significantly healthier lifestyles.  As a whole, women undergo less appearance altering effects than men.  How many times have you run into a guy that you knew when you were younger that you could not recognize because he is bald, gray, and forty to fifty-plus pounds heavier?  Balding is a devastating change that significantly alters a man’s appearance.  Nothing that happens to women naturally compares to male pattern baldness.  Luckily, my maternal grandfather had a full head of hair until the day that he passed.  My father was not so fortunate.

      1. 19.3.1
        FG

        YAG,

        Your 1st paragraph holds much truth. But you start your 2nd paragraph with a hard truth for women, the “genetic lottery”.
        Again, anecdotally (and seen up close and personal), my 2014 FwB hit the proverbial wall. And she did Pilates, and yoga. Het thing was running. She upped her regimen. Her diet did not change (veg, chicken breast, salmon; her sin was bottled… oh, wait… that was her “other” sin aside from the B in benefits lol But it’s not as though she drank by the bucket). Nothing worked: 2 pounds a month!

        Another source of “inflation” is found in pharmaceuticals: as we age, arthritis and similar conditions call for corticosteroids and the like. Those explain why Kathleen Turner, the once sultry darling of America, bloated uncontrollably.

        Leaving the “looks” arena to  enter the working relationship one, ever dated a veggie / vegan? Ever traveled with one? PASS! Pain in the neck. Everything is a problem. In tropical countries, staying away from salad is sound policy: avoid potentially contaminated water. Try doing that with a sillage mower! (I’m teasing). Carry iodine crystals, disinfect the veg washing water, and keep control of all such factors at all times? SIGH!

        There seem to be (and the jury is still out on that) SOME indications that veging out is not that great for you. Sure, fabulous for the waistline, but other illnesses may appear.

        1. Yet Another Guy

          @FG

          Leaving the “looks” arena to  enter the working relationship one, ever dated a veggie / vegan? Ever traveled with one?

          It is not difficult for me to date a vegetarian or vegan because I am a semi-vegetarian that consumes almost no meat.  If it were not for whey protein and grated Romano cheese, the only dairy I consumed would be in baked goods.  I lost 40lbs switching from a meat-based diet to a plant-based diet, and I am more muscular than I have been since my early thirties.  If your FWB was eating a mostly plant-based diet, then she most have a nutrient deficiency that she is not addressing with vitamins and minerals.  It is  difficult to consume too many calories on a plant-based diet unless one consuming a lot of processed oils and refined starch.

      2. 19.3.2
        LoveLife

        Well said, Yet Another Guy…the aging process sure isn’t for wimps!! I feel that if more older adults would really invest in better hormonal health, their physical bodies (and thoughts/emotions) would follow in positive ways. Modern science has so many great avenues for helping us age more gracefully and joyfully.

        After menopause/andropause our sexuality is severely compromised on many levels. It’s a “trickle-down” affect that interferes with experiencing the true joys of life. I would encourage anyone who is battling their weight, sexual desires, emotional imbalances to seek out a specialist in bio-identical hormone replacement therapy. Most MDs do not even test properly for thyroid dysfunction because they haven’t updated their skill set.

        I commend you for your insights and observations. I just turned 68 and have been on a great bio-identical hormone protocol for the past 8 years and I feel wonderful! It is possible to age wisely and happily. I work at it. Have used a personal trainer for 7 years (once a week), play competitive tennis 3x a week. Yes…it takes some money to make it all work, but wow, it sure beats being fat, sad and lonely. It’s very easy to disconnect from life when you don’t feel well. We all make our choices…I do my best not to judge others’ lifestyle choices. I know what makes me happy and I continue to do my best to stay positive and open. No older woman “pot belly” syndrome for me!

    4. 19.4
      ames

      Hi FG! Thanks for sharing and I read this several times to get the meaning . What kind of life achievements do you expect from a woman and at what life points? It surprised me when Evan described how men don’t care about women’s accomplishments but rather how they make him feel. It seems you feel differently and I imagine others might too. I’d like to know where to focus energies outside of fitness and being a loving partner. Thanks!

      1. 19.4.1
        FG

        Fit and loving is good 🙂
        You’re right. Evan and I may indeed have divergent views on that point.

        An adequate answer must take in consideration a number of things, such as “era” (ouch, makes me sound ancient) relative to woman’s age.
        For instance, I can’t make specific financial ($ amount) projections for a woman currently 20 or 30, as it seems we are in a stagnant or even negative growth phase. For women 45 to 58/59, the 70s and 80s were propicious to accumulate some wealth or assets and grow net worth to some degree.

        This calculator gives us SOME idea. Caveat: when you seek to find out where you are (or should be), always watch if the data is for household or individual. HUGE differencce.
        https://dqydj.com/net-worth-by-age-calculator-for-the-united-states/

        In my middling/late 50s, retirement looms, so I have to consider the potential downside / drag of any specific case in relationships. I mentioned elsewhere on this blog that if talking vacation trip with a gf, and the considered plan will cost (for example) $2.5K per person, and gf has $1K for vacation, I might (and I have done so) absorb the cost difference. But this can feel unappealing after a time.

        It is possible that my exit-ticket cost (divorce) may have affected my perception. My target population for dating is educated (university degree, but there ARE some possible alternates), upper middle class and above (that’s appr. $60K + p.a.), responsible life (I have met solid but spendthrift earners who were a little too fascinated by Louis Vuitton or other, and this had serious negative effects on their net worth). An inheritance may also complete the picture.

        So if my OLD profile stipulates “$150K net worth minimum. A pension counts”, meaning reduces the requirement, we have to think in terms of viability, travel budgets and the like. That $150K for an educated woman in my preferred 50-58 is not that hard to achieve. Like I said, a number of assets add to the total (real estate, retirement funds, savings, portfolio, etc.) My next LTR (likely my last, if it comes to pass) must allow for a reasonable partnership. Maybe spending 4-6 months abroad every year? More than one trip?

        Candidly, I made inordinate choices in life. Money was not the beginning and end all. So I can relate when another shares that view and practiced accordingly. But that does not mean I was intent on poverty or financial suicide! I spend lavisly on occasion. In 2017, a $1M net worth is not what it used to be.

        I prefer women w/o progeny, as those seem to often cause problems even when (much) older. Will make exceptions for intelligent offspring management. And no, I do not advocate throwing kids on the street on their 18th b-day. Just in case! 😉 Nor does adulthood mean a Mom should stop loving her “kids”. They cost a lot of money to raise. May have written that here (or it was in my book), but told a gal my age that she had completed her mission w success with her 2 “men” (emancipated, acquired skills, gainfully employed), which was more than I could say about a much higher profile woman, also w 2 boys,  who had failed in that same respect. Being fair-minded and balanced, there were attenuating circumstances on said flop. If you do/did have kids, I expect you to get the job done. Again, knowing full well the vagaries of life. It is an achievement I can admire. I understand the difficulties.

        I seek well-grounded people who can face reality and say things as they are. Career and job are not synonym. Being professional-minded (attention to detail, reliable, etc.) is not being a professional. Nothing wrong with either aspects. In some cases, you will make far more in a high-ranking job (which may be a career by then) than as a self-employed professional. So many nuances! Is entry-level normal at 21? Y. 30? Probably not. What if the 30 y.o. was married and was recently widowed? Changes the portrait completely.

        It’s ok if your guilty pleasure is the occasional Harlequin romance. Or if you really liked Eat, Pray, Love (but we’ll have a talk, ok? LOL). It’s ok if you did not read Kant or Kierkegaard. But a mix to constitute varied references would be nice, no? That goes to life experience. As does travel. Within US/Canada but also abroad. As time resources allow. Art, culture, music contribute. Be curious. Explore. On the web if nothing else. Be alive.

        It’s ok if the active life you built (biking, x-country skiing, rollerblading, and/ór yoga / Pilates / gym) is what you wanted, or could do. Any parent(s) w kids must find something to do with them. Keep busy and entertained. But two worlds either accommodate, or collide.

        I expect, within reason, my gal to be other than a fearful ninny. So I can throw her the car keys and say “you’re driving” no matter where we are. Not left-hand side if she has no experience. I’m not suicidal.

        Had a gal tell me “You’re not like other guys… They talk about the eweather, the game… You talk about everything”. She also added she was not at my level. I never told anyone that while dating. Feels like a stab in the heart, and instant death.  Compare to “We’re really different! This will be a challenge, but I feel I can learn so much from you!” No abysmal drop. And I learn from women too! All kinds of stuff, details, facts. Be open. Alive. Listen. Read. Reach out.

        Try to be a well-rounded, complete human-being, and that both easier and harder than one might expect, as each one of us finds obstacles in different areas.

        And that was my best answer for today! 🙂  Hope it was helpful in its multitude.

        1. Ames

          That was very helpful, thanks! I’m 36 and steadily growing my net worth. It takes time but also good decision making. How a person handles money and their attitude about it tells me more than just a bank statement so I get what you mean about different scenarios. I might date someone with a low income in a field they love if say they inherited a home and can live within their means. I can overlook book smarts for common sense and being world wise. I think that’s what you were getting at too.

    5. 19.5
      Persephone

      Gross post. NPD

  20. 20
    MS

    I laughed with recognition when I read this part: “Conversely, most of my clients are ready to quit online dating if two or three cute guys don’t write back.

    It took me a while to work up the courage to write a first message, because I thought it somehow would make me seem desperate. When I didn’t get replies, it stung! And I wasn’t even asking someone out. Even that small dose of rejection did help me feel empathy for the ones doing all of the asking. 

  21. 21
    Luanne

    Dating is equal parts delightful and discouraging. It would really be difficult to “miss” 85% of the time. It is actually quite commendable that they continue to reach out and risk the (non) response.

    Thanks Evan- I’m glad to have taken the time to put that into words… it will help keep “kind” in mind when responding to advances.  Both the advances that I’m intetested in as well as the ones I’m not.

  22. 22
    Erin

    I think it would be incredibly emotionally exhausting to be the one always extending yourself initially – asking/initiating/paying – and facing this kind of rejection. The lack of response/ignoring is particularly sad and I think it’s symptomatic of the fact that we’ve all lost a lot of common courtesy in the age of online dating and annonimoty.

    Rejection is hard on both sides of the fence but from a numbers perspective, men get the shorter end of the stick. Guy asks out 10 women, 7 reject him off the bat, 3 go out on a date, and maybe 1 accepts a second date. In the same scenario, a woman would reject 7 guys off the bat, go on 3 dates, and maybe accept 1 second date. Guy gets rejected let’s say 9/10 times. Women, let’s say 2/3. Dating math!!! BOOM!

    1. 22.1
      Yet Another Guy

      @Erin

      The number of dates per response is lower.  An experienced, reasonably attractive male online dater who has a good profile and knows who to write targeted opening messages can expect a response rate of about 50%.  However, the limiting factor here is his command of the language in which he is composing his messages because women tend to be grammar and structure Nazis.  Of that 50%,  a man can count on turning one in five responses into a date.  I wrote 973 women on three dating sites the year I was separated (yes, I kept count).  It was like having a second full-time job.  I received 619 response messages, which I turned into 55 first dates.  The low date to response ratio was mostly the result of filtering during message exchanges, not rejection (i.e., discovering things that were not in their profiles).

      Online dating is truly a numbers game for men.  Men without the stomach or tenacity to run up the numbers do not fare well.  Men who do not have game get blown out of the water.  Twenty percent of the men on online dating sites date 80% of the women. That proper subset of the male dating pool is writing a lot of women, and they are writing with the skill of a surgeon while the guys who do not have a clue are mass mailing “Hey beautiful!” messages.

  23. 23
    John

    FG

    Your post is hilarious. It reminds me of a rambling Woody Allen monologue. I can almost hear Woody’s voice in my head when I read it.

    It could also be written and narrated by a male character from a 1940s thriller who was transported to modern times with modern lingo from internet forums.

    1. 23.1
      FG

      Glad you enjoyed it!
      I can play a Woody Allen stand-in: the intellectual minus the neurosis LOL

      As to the 40s male character, aye, back when men still had testosterone and were not afraid to demonstrate it. And remain unapologetic for having opinions, experience and good ol’ commo nsense. Or unfettered by a currently popular but quite destructivve narrative. 🙂

  24. 24
    Hattie

    Poor dudes. Rejection hurts everyone. If I find someone is not compatible I’m nice and tell them that we’re incompatible then I wish them luck. It would be nice to get the same  treatment, I hate wondering if they fell in a sinkhole. One dude was just trying too hard. He mansplained all night which is a huge pet peeve. That wasn’t the only incompatibility but it was the deal breaker. Most of the men I date are really great men, kind, employed, educated, intelligent. I try to set the expectation at evaluating compatible values but they seem to default to them getting rejected. There are plenty of men who don’t want to date me but I don’t take it as rejection, we’re just incompatible. I think rejection is a victim mindset. I feel for them but I think they are looking at things from the wrong angle. I do plenty of inviting and making the first move, sometimes people just don’t jive. It’s not personal, I want to find my perfect 5/5 who is looking for his same 5/5. I don’t want my self confidence to hinge on whether someone accepts or rejects me.  My life is such that it’s going to take an amazing man to even make it in my world. I give the benefit of the doubt but honestly they have to be able to be honest about where they stand (and risk hurting my feelings maybe), be able to be mature about the fact I might be looking for something they can’t offer and not take it personally when we don’t mesh. I recently had an interaction with a really attractive man I wanted to meet. He was educated, single parent, a lawyer, articulate and funny. I read through his answers and he was looking for a woman of a different physical make up. I told him I don’t fit that criteria but that I hope he has good luck then I told him the best parts of what I liked about our whole interaction and his profile. Because that’s how I want to be treated.

     

    Men don’t seem able to be that kind of vulnerable. It’s a shame. I’m still looking though.

  25. 25
    Clare

    I do have sympathy.

     

    On Wednesday, I was at a horse show. I had got there a little early and was waiting for a friend to arrive. Within a couple of minutes, a guy had sidled up to me and struck up a conversation, about the horses, about what our interests were. Then my friend arrived and whisked me off to go and get a drink. The guy who had been talking to me was nice looking and perfectly respectful and charming; a little young, but hey. Had my friend not arrived, I would have been happy to carry on chatting to him. As I left him standing there, I did feel a deep tug of sympathy and respect for him. The courage it must have taken to strike up a conversation with a perfect stranger and have no idea how it would turn out, and to carry it off with style, and then be left standing there like a chump. You have to have a pretty thick skin to keep putting yourself out there for that.

     

    I do empathise deeply. And I have younger brothers. I’ve witnessed behind the scenes the nerves and the courage it takes for a guy to ask out a girl he likes, and then if it doesn’t pan out the secret heartache, and they’re expected to just take it on the chin. Sure it’s life, but sometimes I just want to give them a hug.

    1. 25.1
      mgm531

      As a man I had something similar happen to me just last night.  I was doing my usual Thursday night bicycle ride and happened to come across a woman that was going the same way.  I offered to ride with her a bit to provide some company.  She agreed and we had a pleasant conversation for about 10 minutes.  She was cute, about my age and we had a good rapport.  But before I got the chance to ask her for a number without seeming like a stalker, she met up with another woman rider and they went a different direction.  C’est la vie.  While it would’ve been nice to have had the chance to get to know her better, I took the experience for what it was — a pleasant conversation with a pleasant person for a brief period of time.

      1. 25.1.1
        Clare

        mgm531,

         

        It’s actually a great way to approach a woman – or it has worked with me, anyway. I’ve been “rescued” on more than one occasion by a cute guy when I was standing around at a venue looking spare, waiting for a friend. To me it demonstrates not only confidence, but manners.

      2. 25.1.2
        GoWiththeFlow

        mgm531,

        It’s nice to know that men do enjoy these types of interaction even when they don’t lead to another meeting.  Sometimes I get the impression that for a lot of men, if it doesn’t end with a date, sex, or a relationship they consider the interaction a failure.  I think it’s due to whether a person in goal or process oriented.

        For a goal oriented person, the important thing is was the goal achieved.  Where as someone who is process oriented can enjoy the interaction for what it was without regards to a certain endpoint.

    2. 25.2
      Henriette

      I totally agree, @Clare.  When a guy makes a (respectful, of course) cold approach, he automatically becomes more attractive to me simply because he has demonstrated confidence, nice manners and good taste in selecting me 😉.  I do wonder how many of the female commenters have brothers, sons or widowed dads.  There’s nothing quite like seeing a fine man you love get shot down again and again – often quite impolitely – to help you develop empathy for guys who are doing their best to date.

      1. 25.2.1
        Clare

        Henriette,

         

        Definitely having brothers whom I adore has helped me love and empathise with men more!

      2. 25.2.2
        Marika

        Agreed Clare and Henriette.

        Nice words. I think personal experience in dating as well as relating it back to men we love and care about should (hopefully) help elicit some empathy.

        Stacy, not every man is a creepy, sleazy guy who deserves nothing but disdain. Maybe your lovely boyfriend has experienced women brushing him off. Maybe you can imagine how it would be for your son, nephew or brother you dearly love to face rejection and have to keep going back for more. Normally happy, successful, genetically blessed people are able to be graceful in showing empathy for those less fortunate. It’s surprising you are so tough on men.

    3. 25.3
      Christine

      Clare, that brings to mind a really cringe-inducing incident I once witnessed, that did give me more empathy for men.  I was once at an alumni function, and met two beautiful girls there.  One of them was particularly stunning.  She could probably walk in a Victoria’s Secret runway show and fit right in.  I both admired and envied her beauty, when I met her.

      Just then, this guy came up to us and tried to talk to her.  Well, the way she shot him down was absolutely brutal.  She basically told him, how dare he think that she would be interested in someone like him? Then the other girl laughed, and he walked off with his shoulders slumped.

      It’s difficult to describe.  Imagine a guy bringing a girl roses…and then, her hurling knives at him in return.  That’s what it felt like to watch this.

      I decided right then and there, that these weren’t girls I wanted to become friends with.  I can’t be friends with someone with no compassion, who relishes being cruel.  When I told her how awful she was, she was stunned and said he deserved it.  I’m guessing she’s the type who wasn’t accustomed to hearing “no” (then I realized she had thought I would “fall in line” with her.  This sounds juvenile but it was like The Plastics in the movie “Mean Girls”, where the “queen bee” popular girl expects her “posse” of friends to follow her around worshipping her)

      This was years ago but I still vividly remember it.  I will say this–I stopped envying her after that.  One day, her outer beauty will fade, but that ugly character will stay forever.  I do feel for the men who go through that.

       

      1. 25.3.1
        Tom10

        “Well, the way she shot him down was absolutely brutal”. 
         
        Lol Christine.
         
        That happened to me once; I was in a bar a few years and approached a young lady. Admittedly she was gorgeous, however, her rejection was priceless; she turned her head away, put her hand in front of my face and said: “go away old man”.
         
        I was only about 5 years older than her! It was so harsh that it was actually funny.
         
        The mistake the guy you mentioned was making a cold approach to a Victoria’s Secret-type woman without an angle or an intro; he was asking for trouble. And he knows that himself. So don’t have too much pity for him.
         
        I think everyone remembers their first severe rejection badly, however, most of us learn to curtain our behavior after that first burn to protect our self-esteem. For men, as already noted, this usually entails dating “down” for sex whilst becoming more subtle in our approaches, and for women this usually means holding off on sex until some form of commitment is declared.
         
        But then someone comes along to tempt us to take a risk, then we get burned, then we withdraw, then we start the cycle again! Lol.

        1. Christine

          Tom, LOL!  Seriously, someone who is only five years older is an “old man”?  Then by that logic my husband is really robbing the cradle, for being six years older than me (the horror!)  Seriously, most of the time I forget he’s even older, until his birthday rolls around and reminds me of his age.

          Well, I have to admit that in terms of just looks, she was way out of his league–it was a bit like watching Steve Urkel trying to pick up Naomi Campbell.  But I couldn’t help thinking she was brutal nonetheless.

          It’s tough for everyone to deal with rejection.  It apparently starts early.  Our friends told us how a girl baby rejected their boy baby the other day at day care, by crawling away when he approached her (ouch!  But my friends said that he might as well get that life lesson now!)

      2. 25.3.2
        Emily, the original

        Mr. Thomas,

         I was in a bar a few years and approached a young lady. Admittedly she was gorgeous, however, her rejection was priceless; she turned her head away, put her hand in front of my face and said: “go away old man”.
        I was only about 5 years older than her! It was so harsh that it was actually funny.

        Ok, that was really , really harsh, but I do admit I laughed. How did you react?

        The mistake the guy you mentioned was making a cold approach to a Victoria’s Secret-type woman without an angle or an intro;

        What do you mean? Also, wouldn’t you imagine that a woman who looks like that is getting hit on all the time? What she said to you was extremely rude, but maybe she just wanted to hang out with her friends that night?  Maybe she wanted to spend an evening not fending off half the guys in the bar  ?? I’m guessing, of course. But how do you know, as a man, to approach a woman who you’ve never met?

        1. Tom10

          @ Emily, the original # 25.3.2
          “Ok, that was really , really harsh, but I do admit I laughed. How did you react?”
           
          Ah I’m well used to harsh rejections so it’s just water off a duck’s back, however, that one struck me as being particularly harsh. I was just stunned so hardly reacted at all. My mates, however, who were nearby, buckled over in hysterical laughter! Egg. On. My. Face.
           
          But sure it’s all part and parcel of the game, eh?
           
          “wouldn’t you imagine that a woman who looks like that is getting hit on all the time?”
           
          Hmm, depends. A woman who looks like that and has a kind/friendly disposition might get hit on all the time. However, many, if not most, women like that develop a naturally scowly “back-the-f*ck-off” disposition that scares away all but the most brave guys. Therefore, surprisingly, some of the most beautiful women get little attention at all.
           
          “What she said to you was extremely rude, but maybe she just wanted to hang out with her friends that night?  Maybe she wanted to spend an evening not fending off half the guys in the bar  ?”
           
          Right. Or she might have been just dumped. Or her aunt might just have died. Or some drunk guy might just have shouted at her. There are endless reasons why someone might behave in such a manner. And, with hindsight, reasonable people rationalize it and move on with a chuckle. Getting to that point takes time and reflection though.
           
          “What do you mean?… how do you know, as a man, to approach a woman who you’ve never met?”
           
          Well, it’s all relative Emily: most guys learn early on in their dating lives where they stand with the opposite sex (i.e. what their SMV is), so when approaching a woman they’ve never met they have to consider their relative SMV (i.e. is she lower, equal to, or higher than his), as well has look furtively for any signals she might be giving. If her SMV is lower then his he knows she’ll most likely receive his advances well. If her SMV is equal then it’s a 50-50 call. If it’s higher, then he’s playing a risky game. The point of the game is to go as high as possible whilst taking as few knock-backs as possible. Gosh, isn’t it so much fun!
           
          When a guy cold-approaches a woman “way out of his league”, to quote Christine, he’s asking for trouble. Unless he has a brass neck.
           
          How do you know, as a woman, to approach a man who you’ve never met Emily?”

        2. Emily, the original

          Hello Mr. Tom,

          My mates, however, who were nearby, buckled over in hysterical laughter! Egg. On. My. Face.

          Yeah, that would be rough.

          However, many, if not most, women like that develop a naturally scowly “back-the-f*ck-off” disposition that scares away all but the most brave guys.

          If a woman has a “back the fuck off” scowl on her face, she wants to be left alone. It’s not the brave guys who approach her but the ones who she could run over with her car and they’d still ask, “Hey you want to go out?”   !!

          Or she might have been just dumped. Or her aunt might just have died. Or some drunk guy might just have shouted at her. There are endless reasons why someone might behave in such a manner.

          Exactly. That was what I was trying to say in the other post about cold approaches. Getting no response when you write to women on a dating site is rejection, but you at least know those women are looking to date. In a cold approach, you don’t even know if the woman is on the playing field. That’s why it’s best in those situations to look for “come hither” signs.

          so when approaching a woman they’ve never met they have to consider their relative SMV

          That’s not an approach sign; that’s just your subjective opinion of her attractiveness.

          How do you know, as a woman, to approach a man who you’ve never met Emily?”

          Is the guy looking at me? Sometimes I’ll walk by him to see if he notices (yes, women do that). Or plant myself physically closer to see I can catch his eye. If I’m standing within a few feet of him and he’s not even looking at me, I have answer. Men usually make their interest known by staring or gawking or trying to get your attention. This wasn’t a cold approach but a few months ago I had to work with a new contractor at work. He was very friendly and very pleasant but there was something in his manner — I don’t know how to describe it other than there was a wall there — that let me know I wasn’t getting any further. No flirtation or sexual energy so I knew not to bother.

        3. CaliforniaGirl

          @Emily, the original,

          once I had guests from Lithuania,  two gorgeous girls in their twenties. We went to have a drink one evening and just wanted to sit somewhere with music and have a nice conversation. We just couldn’t do it, every 5 minutes some guy would come over, interrupt our conversation and try to talk. Every 5 minutes. The girls were very nice in the beginning but after 10th time, they couldn’t take it anymore and their answers became rude. It wasn’t fun anymore and we left. Sometimes, women go to bars to chat and relax and not to meet guys, but men don’t understand that. So, if a girl was rude to you, maybe you were 10th guy in the last hour who tried to hit on her and it’s really really frustrating. Maybe men should look for some reaction, smile, look before they approach, I don’t know..

        4. Emily, the original

          CalifornaGirl

          So, if a girl was rude to you, maybe you were 10th guy in the last hour who tried to hit on her and it’s really really frustrating.

          I agree. A man never knows what he’s walking into when he cold approaches.

          Maybe men should look for some reaction, smile, look before they approach, I don’t know..

          I agree that women should signal if they want a man to approach (and men should look for such signals before approaching), but the male commenters on a previous post said women’s signals are too subtle and one female poster wasn’t comfortable giving out “come hither” signals.

    4. 25.4
      Emily, the original

      Clare,

      Then my friend arrived and whisked me off to go and get a drink. The guy who had been talking to me was nice looking and perfectly respectful and charming; a little young, but hey. Had my friend not arrived, I would have been happy to carry on chatting to him.

      You could have invited him to get a drink with you and your friend.

      1. 25.4.1
        Clare

        Not this time. There was something very specific and personal that I had invited my friend to talk about. So the timing was just off, unfortunately.

        1. Emily, the original

          Clare,

          So the timing was just off, unfortunately.

          You could have given him your number! 🙂   If you wanted to. If you were interested enough. I just know that I have in the past let good opportunities go because I didn’t act right then in the moment and then I regretted it later.  The kind of opportunities where the guy threw the ball at me and I ducked instead of catching it and throwing it back.   🙂    Carpe diem, as they say.

           

        2. Clare

          Maybe you would have, Emily, but it’s just not my style.

           

          I have plenty of male attention, and I’m of a more reserved disposition, and not on the lookout for a relationship at the moment… so when you put those things together, it doesn’t really add up to me giving guys my number 😉

        3. Emily, the original

          Clare,

          I have plenty of male attention, and I’m of a more reserved disposition, and not on the lookout for a relationship at the moment… so when you put those things together, it doesn’t really add up to me giving guys my number 😉

          Understood

          Maybe you would have, Emily, but it’s just not my style.

          I wouldn’t have done it unless I was really interested.

           

  26. 26
    Jeremy

    Empathy – men must assume the risk of rejection because if they don’t approach women, women won’t approach them.  The reverse is not usually true.

     

    Empathy – women must assume the risk of getting close to a man who has the potential to hurt her physically and emotionally if she lets her guard down too soon.  Finding the balance between caution and availability is often like walking a tight-rope, and the more they’ve been hurt in the past, the harder it can get.

     

    Empathy – men must assume the financial burden of relationships, and once they commit financially via marriage, their commitment is irrevocable whether or not they continue to consent.  While women also pay alimony, they do so less than 3% of the time and are far less likely to seek relationships where they might have to do so.  Although men are the gatekeepers of marriage, women are the gatekeepers of divorce.

     

    Empathy – women have a finite child-bearing time and their desire to have children is usually far stronger than men’s.  They are on a timeline, and often have to conceal that timeline to land a successful relationship with a man.  They often feel damned if they submit to their clock and damned if they don’t.  It can derail their careers, their life aspirations, and their relationships.

     

    Lack of Empathy – if you reply “yes, but…” to any of the above.  There is always a “but.”  It does not always matter.

    1. 26.1
      mgm531

      Very well said.

      1. 26.1.1
        mgm531

        As a man I can empathize and relate with all the challenges you relayed here.  As a father to a daughter it pains me to think about all of the challenges and tough decisions she will face in her life simply because she is female.

    2. 26.2
      Marika

      Your ability to always show empathy is a great asset, Jeremy. 

  27. 27
    Julie

    I think as a whole society has lost their manners and hiding behind a keyboard has made things worse.

    I am no longer on the dating sites but when I was, I tried to respond to anyone who emailed me … I would thank them for the nice thoughts or the email or whatever and then tell them that we were not a match. Most men were very grateful for this but there were a lot of them who kept pushing and pushing and pushing. This made me leery to respond at all.

    Most women have been drilled since they were little be nice and don’t hurt people’s feelings. So I think it is hard for a lot of women to be real and kindly turn down dates.

    I also think it’s extremely difficult for men to know how to respond how to act and things to say. And because women have been inundated by jerks and players Etc a man might be legitimately paying a compliment but due to past experiences women take it wrong.

    I have been in and out of the dating world for a very long time and have never seen it quite as bad as it has been the last year or so.

    I do have empathy for men in the dating world just as much as I have empathy for women in the dating world. I don’t think it’s an even draw, however I wonder what the percentage is for men and women who have been seeing each other for a while and the man  just “disappears”, or does a 180 Etc

    1. 27.1
      Noquay

      Julie

      I totally agree; was last on line four-six years ago and now am reluctantly because a guy did do a 180 after 1 1/2 years together. Things are much uglier, crude, disrespectful, even in my older age range. I’m on multiple, paid sites and see the same issues regardless of site. Those of us who try and reject someone incompatible with kindness, have our response mis-read as interest because a lot of guys baseline is to be treated with disrespect. This creates problems as I live in a small town and am easily located. I go on very few dates as I choose well yet I’ve had guys show up in a rage because I’m not more provocatively dressed (I’m almost 57), show up in dirty, wrinkled attire that I wouldn’t be seen shoveling out chicken manure in, fellow high end professionals who expect me to foot the bill or want to eat somewhere run down or cheap. Four years ago, none of these sort of things happened. One sees the same thing on Faceplant and many blogs too.

    2. 27.2
      Stacy

      Julie,

      I agree with you that it is very difficult to turn down men because there is truly really no nice way to do it without it coming off as a slap in the face.  I try to look irritated when I walk and I try to always look as if I am in a hurry to deter them (in person) since I am no longer dating.  This morning while coming to work, this guy walks along me all the way to my job. He paid me a compliment and I said thank you and was nice about it. But, I literally answered him in very short and clipped responses because he didn’t seem to get the hint. No, I do not feel like having a 10 minute conversation while I am hurrying to go to work. But part of me actually felt bad thinking about what it’s like for him.  After all that conversation, he finally asked me how we can stay in contact as I came to the elevators. I told him I was involved but yes, it was still super awkward. I can never get over the internal cringe in having to turn down a guy so for women, it is pretty damn uncomfortable as well (just from a different perspective).

  28. 28
    April Hunter

    My girlfriends and I were just talking about this. In person, we reject men at times because they’re too weak or lame to take control and make a move.  Meaning, ask us out or go for the kiss. Learn to read body language. Get some balls. Women want men to be men. I realize it can be confusing at times some days but at our core, we are still pretty basic. So many men are so afraid of rejection…it leads to rejection.

    So many men are so afraid of rejection…it leads to rejection.

    Online, there’s a multitude of reasons and unfortunately, we judge based on text and numbers. In all honesty, if I’d met my ex-husband (who is a great person and we are better friends than spouses) or current boyfriend online, I’d have rejected them based on their profiles. We have a narrow field we work with as females and most of us are inundated with offers, so we have to cut quickly or it becomes a full-time job.

    For men who aren’t talented with writing or profiles, they’re at an immediate disadvantage. I’d suggest getting help if you know (and are willing to admit) it’s a shortcoming.

    Reason to reject: (for me–and some others…)

    -Not enough photos. Photos with nothing but sunglasses Photos which are nothing but endless selfies in the same pose.

    -Saying you’re funny instead of BEING funny. Being too serious about something, like religion or politics. If it’s important to you, there’s a place for that where you fill the profile out. Don’t repeatedly state it or you slim your options dramatically.

    -Bad grammar and spelling. Exception: if English isn’t your first language. If it is and you don’t have a basic grasp of your native tongue…nor do you have enough pride or work ethic to spell check on something that’s a first impressio…cut.

    -Negativity. Talking about exes. Railing about shit. Stating that this isn’t a place to do ‘free dinners’. Saying “we’ll go Dutch”. Um…no. If I’m taking the time to get dressed up, do my makeup and hair and MEET you, you can buy me a fucking coffee or drink. Call me old fashioned.

    -If there are ridiculously lame emails. “hi.”  “How’s your day?” “Nice tits.” Fuck right off with that. Women have profiles. Read them, find something to talk about and open with that…well, something other than their breasts/ass/whatever you’d like to get into.

    -A follow up email in a few days is fine. Again, we DO get inundated. A gentle nudge isn’t a bad thing. Badgering and abuse…no. “FINE! You’re missing out!” Don’t do that.

    -Handle rejection like a champ. Often, it’s really and honestly not YOU or personal. I swear. Because online dating matches us up due to compatibility first and many women (people) are very busy these days, we usually are simply picking the top matches sent.

    -FILL OUT YOUR PROFILES. I cannot stress this enough. And do them properly. Not too short, not too long. It’s an art, but it IS the first impression and 60-70% of what we judge on. A photo catches my eye, but it’s not enough. A profile seals the deal on a returned email and date…every single time. Looks are NOT enough. Compatibility is key for me and many others. So, list your favorite films, if you like comic cons or car shows, your music, love of dogs or cooking…all of it. Make yourself human.

    -Bonus: if you are comfortable, add a shirtless or somewhat revealing photo…but NOT a selfie. If you can get a pic of yourself someone else took nonchalantly on the beach, playing sports, in a pool…you know…subtle…it increases your chances quite a bit. But ONE. Just one. And have a total of at least 3-4 photos up. No sunglasses in most. With friends, pets, family, cooking, whatever.

    -Be yourself. Unless yourself is “stalker/crazy”. Then you’re not ready to date. Be a whole person, not someone looking to fill a void. Self-awareness is so rare, it’s a super power. Fix your own shit first. Don’t expect someone else to fix it for you…nor can you fix them. Fixing people isn’t love. Too many get it twisted and filling voids seem to be a favorite American pastime which leads to fantastic divorce rates. Two halves don’t make a whole in relationships.

     

    Good luck. Hope some of this helps.

    1. 28.1
      mgm531

      All great advice.  But unless you’re one of the lucky ones that make the top 20% of men that are most desireable to women, it probably won’t make a lot of difference.  Maybe a percentage or two higher in a response rate, but that just means 12 women instead of 10 will respond out of every 100 messages sent.  Just how it is.

      1. 28.1.1
        JB

        Top 20%? Try top 5%

    2. 28.2
      Stacy

      @April

      YESSS to everything you said.

  29. 29
    Diana Rickman

    Great insight Evan.  I love how you make that important distinction between the creeps and the other 20%.  If you’re serious about finding someone of any gender to have a lasting and strong relationship with you first need to to show empathy, interest and consideration.  The best way to be able to do that is to better understand the other 20% and their worries and fears.  The other 80% need to be taken lightly and laughed off or better still have an auto reply that explains why you find that sort of approach unattractive  ie ‘nice camo suit and slaughtered animal pic dude, not really my thing though thanks anyway.’  Or is it just me who gets those?

    1. 29.1
      Noquay

      Diana

      You forgot the dead fish, ATV or dirt bike, or the dude that looks like someone from the movie “Deliverance” posing with the mud-spattered pickup AND the serious gun pics which always makes me wonder if they’re moonlighting as professional assassins. I’m actually glad when dudes show these because I know from the get-go not to waste time on them. It’s as though dudes are trying to impress fellow men rather than attract women, kinda like women who have pics w/girlfriends or puppies, kittens, etc. I feel for them, they’re probably not creeps (or part time assassins) just somewhat clueless. Interesting that there’s so many blogs, programs out there that tell us to get lighter, prettier, increase our self esteem, be more confident, yet there’s no parallel for men. I’ve been told that since there’s more women out there than men in my age range that the men have it easy “as is” while we should either settle, stay alone, or shoot ourselves but from what Evan states, men are lonely too.

      1. 29.1.1
        FG

        Noquay,
        You largely got it! Those men clearly show what they are into, and their tastes, while uncommensurate to your (I’m assuming?) urban charm savvy, may fit well with a rural gal. Imagine if they practiced “false advertising” wearing a suit and necktie.

        But this fits well with my comment on tunnel-vision: they show themselves as they are, and depending on their environment, that may fit really well. Had a gf in TX who kept her loaded shotgun in the living room. Different! Back to those guys, they probably seek a match who likes fishing, outdoor roughing it, camping and the like. It’s not you. That’s fine. Not so sure they are clueless.

        As to “more men in your age range”, you have to cross paths before you date. Depending on OLD site specifics, and that age range (no clue), the ratio may be 60/40 (men to women), or 5:1 (it’s raining men). Hard to get a proper fix.

        I have no interest nor advantage in selling something I’m not! Keeping it honest may ensure a relationship gets built on “real”, not on “fake”!

        1. Persephone

          Where I live the majority of people keep loaded shotguns by their front door, also. This is the norm for us. A dog stays on my front porch, guarding my pickup truck. Yep. And I have a doctorate, too so we are a paradoxical bunch where I live. I wonder if that would rule me out for the majority of guys on here. Y’all seem like an urban bunch. But that just doesn’t seem like a criteria to look for in a date.

        2. DeeGee

          Persephone said: “I wonder if that would rule me out for the majority of guys on here.

          Not with me.  I enjoy target shooting as one of my hobbies.  And I studied for my B.E.E.  My “must have” list for a woman is actually quite small, only 5 items that I can think of…

        3. Noquay

          FG

          I actually DO have lived in rural areas most of my life because I’m an avid outdoorswoman and biologist. I also happen to have three STEM degrees and am well read, cultured, start many mornings singing opera. I can rough it easily yet, cut my own firewood, yet,  like many outdoorswomen, have zero interest in redneck culture. Yep, I’m glad when these dudes post their dead animal pics but truly wish they’d understand not all women in rural areas are rednecks and not get angry when I kindly state we’re not compatible.

  30. 30
    Elle

    Oh Evan, you have inadvertently tapped into a HUGE problem for me. I am an empath (for your readers who don’t know what that is, please Google it).  It is excruciating for me to reject men because I actually feel their feelings of rejection, and I feel awful about being the cause of those feelings. That for me has always been the worst part of the dating experience. At one workplace, I hid in a closet to avoid a man who was interested in me because I didn’t want to have to hurt him by rejecting him! Thankfully, he lost interest in pursuing me because I wasn’t around. But closet hiding is not a workable solution in most situations!

    1. 30.1
      Clare

      Elle,

       

      I’m sooo glad someone has mentioned this. I’m an empath too, deeply, deeply empathic. I literally can’t bear the thought of being the cause of pain to others, it is far more unbearable than the pain to myself, because I can feel their feelings, hear their thoughts and imagine what they are going through in excruciating detail. So I stay in unsuitable relationships too long and am probably far too gentle and circumspect when I finally do end them. During my clubbing days when I was younger, my friends used to say that I “couldn’t say no” when a guy hit on me. It’s only through a great deal of self-coaching and practice that I am able to break things off with a guy at all these days. And I’m able to do it only because I know it will be more pain in the long run for him (and me) if I don’t.

       

      One thing which I have found helps a great deal is having a friend whose opinion you trust who is not as empathic as you to talk things through with and bounce ideas off. I have a guy friend like this who is willing to let me talk things through with him about a guy I’m seeing and will give me his honest perspective. He’s kind, but he will call things as he sees it, and this helps to snap me out of it when I am getting mired in empathy and can’t see the wood for the trees. He reminds me that when a guy makes a decision to date, he knows that it not working out is part of the risk he takes.

      1. 30.1.1
        Nissa

        I had no idea there were so many of us here!! Yay!! If you are not currently practicing daily protection work, it will change your life. Literally. Dealing with the constant barrage of emotion, and energy drain it took just to be in the presence of others was awful and made me emotionally off balance unless I was alone. Going to parties or even work some days was all I could manage, much less dating.  Google grounding, shielding and psychic protection. Make saging part of your life. I do Perpetual Spirit Living work, but any practices that isolate your energy from others will do the trick.

        I’ve been doing it for the last 10 years, and I can’t count the number of people who have told me “you’ve changed, you are not the same person – you are so much happier, friendlier, nicer /less judgmental / mean / less insecure than you were”!! I actually see it as an amazing compliment that people are willing to say that to my face, that I wasn’t such a nice person, and that they trust me to not be upset or angry about that. They are right.

        Love and light to my fellow feelers!!

         

    2. 30.2
      Jeremy

      Being highly empathetic is just as bad, if not worse, for a man.  Imagine trying to approach a woman and not being able to due to an inability to tolerate the idea of causing discomfort to someone else.  Imagine not being able to initiate sex or touch for the same fear.  If being highly empathetic makes life difficult for a responder, how must it be for an initiator?  Avoiding men because you can’t bear the idea of rejecting them must be difficult, but if you like a guy you can stop avoiding him and let him initiate.  Imagine if you had to initiate and had no idea whether he wanted you to or not…

       

      Of course, the solution is to remember (as I tell myself over and over), that you can not know the internal feelings of someone else, and that your intuitive cues may be wrong (though they hardly ever are).  That the feelings we imagine others feeling may be inaccurate or blown out of proportion.  That we need to consider our own feelings first, although not to ignore those of others, because if we don’t put our own feelings first no one else will.  Easier said than done though, right?  Especially in a world where although people perceive manhood (or “growing balls” as it was referred to in another comment here) as going after what you want, but going after what you want makes you a jerk when what you want doesn’t want you.

      1. 30.2.1
        SS

        Whoaaa, no.  Not worse for a man.  Why is it a competition Jeremy?

        1. Jeremy

          It’s not about a competition, SS.  It’s about empathy, ironically.  Some of the ladies were describing the difficulties of being highly empathetic women (or empathic women) and how that has affected their dating life.  Because the purpose of this post is empathy for the male experience I wanted to describe the challenges of being a highly empathetic male – which are different challenges, given the societal roles of men as initiators.

           

          Now to your statement – “not worse for a man.”  Curious as to your reasoning.

      2. 30.2.2
        Clare

        I think I see what you are saying, Jeremy.

         

        I read a book some years ago called “Manslations” – written by a male comedian, lighthearted dating advice, very funny. I remember him saying that boys are taught from a young age Thou Shalt Not Make a Woman Cry. I thought this was so interesting, so ever since, I’ve looked for evidence of this. Sure enough, the vast majority of guys I’ve seen cannot bear to be labeled The One Who Made Her Cry.

        1. Jeremy

          Funny you should mention crying, Clare.  I find that women crying is often like kryptonite for men, especially empathetic men.  On the one hand, we don’t know how to deal with such an overt display of emotion.  We get overwhelmed by it.  I know that when I watch something awkward on tv (for example, the show “the Office”), I often need to hide my face when something embarrassing happens.  My wife often teases me about that, but I can’t handle the vicarious emotion.  How much worse is it when a loved one cries?

           

          And to make matters worse, men are taught to control their emotions (for good reason), and so a display of a loss of control often makes us uncomfortable, feeling like we are dealing with someone irrational – someone with no self control (which, of course, is false, but women’s socialization is very different from men’s).  So we perceive that our loved one is being irrational and overwhelming – what’s a man to do?  Usually withdraw, unless socialized (by women) to offer sympathy or highly mentally disciplined to overcome our socialization and offer support because we know it is needed.

        2. Clare

          You’re quite right, Jeremy. I’ve noticed that in most men.

           

          I used to think of it as cold until I realised that, no, it was simply them being overwhelmed by the display of emotion and unsure how to respond. Empathic women can also get overwhelmed by others’ emotions, but we’re more skilled as to how to respond. We instinctively know to comfort with physical affection and try to get the person to talk about what’s wrong – we can usually get some relief of the emotion, both for the crying person and ourselves, that way.

           

          This difference between the sexes have made me see how much conscious skill and self-awareness is being practiced when a man does know not to get freaked out when a woman breaks down into tears, and to stay calm and comfort her instead. As such, I value such men extremely highly. I think it also tends to be men who are not as afraid of expressing their own emotions.

           

          Although, having said that, I’ve found that men who have sisters, female friends, and who were well raised by their mothers also have quite a compassionate understanding of women’s emotions and when they sometimes cry. Everyone has their limit, of course – one female friend of mine is a great deal too prone to excessive displays of emotion, especially sadness and grief, and I would think it would severely test the patience of even the most understanding men (since it is even too much for most of her female friends). Sure enough, her relationships do not tend to last long.

        3. Emily, the original

          Jeremy,

          And to make matters worse, men are taught to control their emotions (for good reason), and so a display of a loss of control often makes us uncomfortable,

          Actually, I found the opposite to be true. I just left a job and was quite teary my last day. Three of my guy friends were very compassionate and sweet when I started crying as I said goodbye. I think I was more uncomfortable that I was crying than they were.

      3. 30.2.3
        Nissa

        The male empaths that I know seem to do better when they get out of their head and allow themselves to feel what they are feeling. It’s a skill, but separate out THEIR feelings from YOUR feelings. This is easier when you are not physically close. Then, recognize that both of you have valid feelings, and that they might be transient.

        That’s important. This allows you to respect their feelings while honoring your own. If you have different desires, that’s no one’s fault, it’s just not the same. Also, remember that just like you, she might have competing desires, such as: wanting to be wanted / desired / loved, but not hurt / shamed / used. You might just be feeling the negatives without realizing that the positives are also there.

        Last, take action based on your desires in a way that respects the desires of the other, and allows for choice. If you ask for something, she can say no. If she can’t and feels hurt, that is often an issue of her not being able to have appropriate boundaries. That part is not your responsibility. Your responsibility is to respect her choices as she articulates them. In the absence of an intention to harm or hurt her, feelings of hurt can be understood as part of the learning process that does not need to be a detriment as they are easily processed and/or forgiven.

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