How Do I Get Him to Want to Be My Boyfriend?

How Do I Get Him to Want to Be My Boyfriend

I started dating a guy recently whose actions and words don’t quite match up, and it’s left me a little confused. His actions are wonderful: he plans fun and interesting dates and communicates with me frequently. He has introduced me to his friends. We spend 2-3 days a week together. He is attentive and kind. It’s now been about two and a half months since our first date. Sounds great, right?

The catch is that about three weeks in to dating, we had a conversation defining that our relationship was just casual. He brought the topic up, I felt like it was waaay early to DTR, and I was still dating other people. Frankly, I didn’t think the relationship was going anywhere — I wasn’t that into him initially. I was very happy to confirm the “just casual” thing. But he kept planning fun things to do, and as we spent more time together, I became very attracted and attached.

So now, I want to define the relationship (or, I guess, re-define it) as exclusive. Normally I’d wait for the man to bring this up, but since he already did (way early), I don’t know that he will. How do I bring up this topic, without giving off clingy/needy vibes?

Background info: We’re both 27, we’ve been sleeping together since date 3 (kind of a cliche, but not a policy), I am still dating other people but unenthusiastically. If he still wants to keep it casual, I’ll break it off — being emotionally insecure in a relationship is not fun for anybody. I don’t feel any need to be in the THE relationship leading to marriage right now, but I do want to be in a relationship that makes me feel safe, loved, and confident.

Your advice is appreciated!
Kelly

Oy.

Sometimes the only way to write these responses is to dissect them line by line. So here goes:

The catch is that about three weeks in to dating, we had a conversation defining that our relationship was just casual. He brought the topic up,

Yeah, that’s a pretty big catch.

So when you say, “Sounds great, right?” what I hear is a woman who has consciously blinded herself to the fact that the guy who is acting like your boyfriend DOESN’T WANT TO BE YOUR BOYFRIEND.

I wrote a popular piece about this called “Believe the negatives, ignore the positives,” which pretty much means what it says. When a guy says, “I’m not looking for anything serious,” believe him.

I was very happy to confirm the “just casual” thing. But he kept planning fun things to do, and as we spent more time together, I became very attracted and attached.

When a guy says, “I’m not looking for anything serious,” believe him.

Yeah, that’s sort of how it happens. It’s not just you. In fact, millions of women sleep with guys for fun, get attached, and then find themselves in the exact same position as you. The shocking thing is not that you grew closer to the guy who was acting like your boyfriend, but that you didn’t see this as a potential outcome from the beginning.

So now, I want to define the relationship (or, I guess, re-define it) as exclusive. Normally I’d wait for the man to bring this up, but since he already did (way early), I don’t know that he will. How do I bring up this topic, without giving off clingy/needy vibes?

Too late. I mean, it’s never too late to have a conversation. But he defined your relationship, you accepted his terms, and now you’re trying to renegotiate – without any leverage. You’ve already established that you’ll sleep with a guy without a commitment; what incentive does he have to commit?

Astute readers will already know the answer:

He’ll commit only if he wants to be your boyfriend and doesn’t want to lose you.

Therefore, the only way to bring it up is to let him know that he’s going to lose you if he doesn’t make you his girlfriend now. (And yes, the word is GIRLFRIEND. “Exclusive” is just a loophole that means he’s not fucking anybody else at the moment.)

Background info: We’re both 27, we’ve been sleeping together since date 3 (kind of a cliche, but not a policy), I am still dating other people but unenthusiastically. If he still wants to keep it casual, I’ll break it off — being emotionally insecure in a relationship is not fun for anybody. I don’t feel any need to be in the THE relationship leading to marriage right now, but I do want to be in a relationship that makes me feel safe, loved, and confident.

Good. You got there on your own.

You’re not needy for wanting a boyfriend. You’re a woman who has needs. Reasonable ones. And you’re going to break it off the second he hesitates to make things official.

Stop sleeping with men who aren’t your boyfriend.

I can’t tell you what’s going to happen, Kelly, but I can tell you that you serve as a cautionary for all of my female readers who fall into “relationships” like yours. So if you’re a reader and you:

    1. Sleep with a guy on the third date.
    2. He tells you he’s only looking for something casual.
    3. Keep sleeping with him and start to get attached to him.
    4. Don’t have the security of being a girlfriend after a few months and wonder how you got here and what you can do to “redefine” the relationship…

This is really fucking simple:

Stop sleeping with men who aren’t your boyfriend.

That’s not slut-shaming; that’s just common sense. Especially when you consistently find yourself getting attached and blown off by the men you’re casually sleeping with.

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Comments:

  1. 1
    Stacy

    *slow clap*

    It’s really JUST that simple.  I think that the key is, you have to have a mindset that if things don’t work out with this one, someone else will come along who is better for you.  It’s very important. I  think as women especially, we sometimes get so into a guy and close off all other options and put him on a pedestal. This usually happens pretty quickly after sex. So now you’re hooked and he is happy with that.  I presently try to be careful with this.  I have learned to never be afraid to lose a man who doesn’t want what I want. And many men have given me numerous lines about them wanting to ‘know what they are getting into sexually before committing.’  Then I say, ‘NEXT’ because that means that you are not afraid to lose me. I am asking for a committment, not to get married. You have to decide what you are willing to put up with and what your boundaries are. Many women bond through sex. So don’t have it if you want him to be your boyfriend!

    1. 1.1
      Adrian

      Hello Stacy,

      __Your reply has me curious, so if you don’t mind answering

      __You stated, “And many men have given me numerous lines about them wanting to ‘know what they are getting into sexually before committing.’  Then I say, ‘NEXT’ because that means that you are not afraid to lose me.

      __So if you made a guy wait lets say about 2 months then had sex and it wasn’t great and he wasn’t getting any better regardless of all your coaching, you would stick with him, if everything else about the relationship was great?

      1. 1.1.1
        Stacy

        Adrian, if a man was bad in bed after we made it official, I will try to work through it.Maybe I am an eternal optimist but I think that most men can learn how to sexually please their women if they are willing.

        However, if it does not improve over time, I will break up.But I don’t believe it is necessary to ‘test drive’ someone sexually before an exclusive relationship. Me being in a relationship with you simply says, ‘I am not interested in dating or having sex with anyone else because I want to focus on just you to see where this goes…’ However, we both still have the right to opt out before we enter into a more permanent state of ‘contract’. I cannot  trust the non relationship because this would mean (whether spoken or unspoken) that he has decided that I am merely an option amongst others.

    2. 1.2
      GoWiththeFlow

      Stacy,

      Right on the mark.  I’m going to write your saying onto a post-it and stick it on my bathroom mirror: “Never be afraid to lose a man who doesn’t want what you want.”

      After all, isn’t that the mindset most men have?

  2. 2
    Elly Klein

    Hmmm, this is a tricky one. As Kelly says:

    His actions are wonderful: he plans fun and interesting dates and communicates with me frequently. He has introduced me to his friends. We spend 2-3 days a week together. He is attentive and kind. It’s now been about two and a half months since our first date.”

    Sounds like a boyfriend to me!

    It’s quite possible that, at the three-week mark, he felt as though he only wanted something causal. (As you say, Evan, “Men look for sex and find love.”) But it seems to have grown over time, and it’s possible he feels differently now – as Kelly does – and he just hasn’t verbally defined it.

    It’s time for a conversation, Kelly, as you can’t go on like this. If I were you, I’d probably say something along the lines of: “Hey, I know we both said in the beginning we were happy to keep things casual. But it seems our relationship has developed into something more over the past few months. What do you think?”

    See what he says. If it’s clear he has no interest in being ‘tied down’, tell him that’s cool but you’ve realised you’d like to have a boyfriend, so you’re going to move on and look for a relationship. But if he says something like, “Of course you’re my girlfriend – I’m so sorry I didn’t articulate that earlier” then yay!

    Good luck, Kelly. I hope you’ll come back to the comments section here and let us know how it goes!

     

    1. 2.1
      Bb

      It deserves a conversation, yes!

  3. 3
    Tom10

    Excellent answer Evan.
     
    In fact, I’d go even further and say that not only does Kelly’s guy not want to be her boyfriend; he most likely knew within the first five minutes of meeting her that he would never be her boyfriend but considered her cool/sexy enough to spend X amount of time with.
     
    Otherwise, he wouldn’t have potentially shot himself in the foot three weeks in to dating by “defining that our relationship was just casual.” This piece of information serves two purposes:
     
    a)    It gives him get-out card for when he gets bored with her and wants to move on (“but I told you from the start I only want casual!”).
    b)    It says that he’s already decided that doesn’t consider Kelly as serious gf/wife potential, therefore any further time she spends with him is, ultimately, pointless.
     
    A guy who is seriously considering his date as potential long-term girlfriend/wife material would never jeopardize this potential by defining the relationship as “just casual”.
     
    Evan is correct; if you want a boyfriend but your guy doesn’t want this, you need to dump him, cut him off and make sure to believe the next guy when he says he only wants casual.

    1. 3.1
      Stacy

      Tom, I think you’re spot on!

      If a man is excited about you (and after 3 weeks, he should be really excited), he would not have this ‘let’s keep it casual’ talk. In fact, at that mark is when you start thinking of this person as potentially whatever you want him or her to be.

      And what is up with women who are having sex with these men but don’t want to approach the topic for fear of coming off clingy? I don’t get that. You’re sleeping with him for crying out loud. If he runs because of your concern, then you want to know this sooner rather than later.

    2. 3.2
      Emily, the original

      Tom10,

      He most likely knew within the first five minutes of meeting her that he would never be her boyfriend but considered her cool/sexy enough to spend X amount of time with.

      How would he know that so quickly? I can tell pretty quickly whether or not I want to sleep with someone, but have a relationship? … that takes a little more than 5 minutes.

      1. 3.2.1
        Tom10

         
        @ Emily, the original #3.2
         
        “How would he know that so quickly? I can tell pretty quickly whether or not I want to sleep with someone, but have a relationship?”
         
         
         
        Well no-one can tell that quickly whether a relationship is possible, however, someone might know that quickly when a relationship is not possible; usually due to some inherent dealbreaker. So the guy might know that he’ll never consider a relationship with a particular girl but will happily date/have sex with her for X amount of time. Could be for any number of reasons: she’s the wrong religion/wrong class/wrong job/false leg/not quite pretty enough, etc. Any of these could be a dealbreaker for a relationship, but not a dealbreaker for casual dating.
         

        1. Cali

          False leg, LOL

    3. 3.3
      Kate

      You nailed it, Tom.  Men categorize women very quickly

    4. 3.4
      leesa

      thanks tom. this is what happened to me recently. he kind of wanted me to agree to his terms before he hooked up with me. when i tried to do a runner, he back peddled saying that was just a defense mechanism and that he did really like me and he just wanted to take thing one day at a time. i did feel like he was too hot for me from the start and he’s used to having girlfriends much younger than me. although he was calling me between 1 and 4 times per day, finally he went cold one day when i saw him and i decided that he”d decided that i probably wasn’t pretty/young enough for him (compared to what he’s used to) and bailed. i would have loved to have shagged him but i didn’t feel good in his company. my heart is somewhat broken but i’ll get over it in time.

  4. 4
    ScottH

    I’m with Elly- have the talk and see what happens.  Just like her feelings changed, so might his.

  5. 5
    Adrian

    Hmmm…

    Another possibility to what happened could have been that he was waaay to into her too fast in the beginning but she wasn’t really that into him.

     

    Kelly said, “ He brought the topic up”  To me this is the action of a man who was really into the girl, not a player.

     

    To support this assertion of mine I use Kelly’s own words when she says, “His actions are wonderful: he plans fun and interesting dates and communicates with me frequently. He has introduced me to his friends. We spend 2-3 days a week together. He is attentive and kind.” This all seems like a lot of work for a guy who just wanted something casual or to be a player.

     

    It was Kelly who wanted the casual relationship and this guy was just agreeing with her because he was scared of chasing her off and being seen as needy. Remember when Kelly said, ” I felt like it was waaay early to DTR,”

     

    Then Kelly said, “and I was still dating other people.”

     

    Next it was Kelly NOT the boyfriend who said,  “Frankly, I didn’t think the relationship was going anywhereI wasn’t that into him initially. I was very happy to confirm the “just casual” thing.”

     

    Notice it was always Kelly not the boyfriend leading the casual relationship fight. Kelly said she didn’t think it would work, she said she had other guys on the side, yet some how it is this guy who is at fault for stringing her along?!

     

    Because after the talk Kelly said, “But he kept planning fun things to do.” This guy is doing what Evan calls courting, yet he is at fault because she wanted casual? He probably felt hurt that she didn’t want more, but he decided to try to win her instead of putting his tail between his legs and giving minimum effort (the definition of casual dating). I thought this was the site full of women saying they hated “netfix and chill guys?”

    …   …   …

    __It is kind of sad that on a site for women to understand “good” men the default answer of many is that this guy is at fault.

    __Kelly wanted one thing in the beginning, changed her mind, now has to own up to it and tell the guy what she wants and be prepared for the consequences; if he is a player just leave him, but don’t pretend as if it is all on him the situation you are in now.

    1. 5.1
      Tom10

      @ Adrian
      Good comment Adrian; I like reading different interpretations which are well supported.
       
      “Another possibility to what happened could have been that he was waaay to into her too fast in the beginning but she wasn’t really that into him.”
       
      You created a strong enough case to argue that this guy might well be very into Kelly and he’s simply trying to keep things cool so as not to scare her off.
       
      So, it could be that they’re both playing it too cool, and neither wants to be the one who initiates the dtr out of fear losing face and getting burnt when they find out the other party wants to keep it casual.
       
      I don’t think anyone is blaming the guy in this situation for “stringing her along”; if anything he has been upfront, honest and extremely respectful.
       
      The issue here is how does she “get him “to want to be [her] boyfriend?” The answer, invariably, is that she can’t; he has to want to be her boyfriend himself, and if he does, he will ask on his own accord.
       
      Therefore, as he hasn’t done this, she has to ask him what he wants herself. If he is genuinely serious about her he will be relieved she brought it up and will be delighted to step up and be her boyfriend. If his answer is in anyway ambiguous his true intentions will be clear.
       
       
      I look forward to reading an update from Kelly on this one – to see which interpretation proves correct!

      1. 5.1.1
        Adrian

        Hi Tom10,

        __You are correct, I should not have made my comment as if people were blaming the guy.

        …   …   …

        __When I first started reading Evan’s responses and the comment section on this site, they use to confuse me (I would always think; the men and women I know don’t act like that).

        __But now I realize Evan usually bases his answers off of what a “Alpha” man or woman would do. In other words, men and women with lots of options and experience with the opposite sex. Same thing within the comments section.

        __The problem with this approach (in my opinion) is that the average male and female reader on this site lacks skill and confidence with the opposite sex (which is why we are here). And the little they do know is something they have read off of the internet or a book, not something they naturally do.

        __So will I deny that players love keeping it casual, No. But this guy doesn’t seem like the type. Of course I could be wrong.

        1. Emily, the original

          Tom10,

          If anything he has been upfront, honest and extremely respectful.

          I’m going to have to disagree with this. A casual relationship is not one in which the couple meets 2 to 3 times a week and one in which the man is planning the dates/courting and communicating frequently. That’s what a boyfriend does, and his actions are confusing her.

          Perhaps he wants the friendship/care/compassion/sex of a girlfriend but doesn’t want the responsibility of a boyfriend. If so, that’s selfish and unfair.

        2. Tom10

          @ Emily, the original

          “A casual relationship is not one in which the couple meets 2 to 3 times a week and one in which the man is planning the dates/courting and communicating frequently. That’s what a boyfriend does, and his actions are confusing her.”

          So how else would you define a relationship in which two parties meet 2 to 3 times a week but have confirmed commitment? My guess is that a judge would define this arrangement as a “casual relationship.”

          So what’s the difference between a guy who is casually dating and a guy who wants to be a boyfriend? The difference is that a boyfriend asks if he can be her girlfriend.

          Therefore, if a man is planning dates/courting and communicating frequently BUT still hasn’t asked for exclusivity, then it’s a mistake for a woman to *assume* that he’s her boyfriend.

          Remember; until he’s your boyfriend he’s not real.

          “Perhaps he wants the friendship/care/compassion/sex of a girlfriend but doesn’t want the responsibility of a boyfriend. If so, that’s selfish and unfair.”

          Perhaps it is selfish and unfair. Yet many women find themselves in this very situation and end up writing to Evan as a result. Therefore, it’s on each woman to ensure she doesn’t allow herself into a position where she provides all the benefits of being a girlfriend yet has none of her own needs fulfilled.

        3. Tom10

           
          * “So how else would you define a relationship in which two parties meet 2 to 3 times a week but have NOT confirmed commitment?”
           

        4. SparklingEmerald

          Tom10 asked “So how else would you define a relationship in which two parties meet 2 to 3 times a week but have NOT confirmed commitment?””

          I believe this is what dating coach Marni Batista would call a “quality casual” relationship.

        5. Emily, the original

          Tom10,

          So how else would you define a relationship in which two parties meet 2 to 3 times a week but have confirmed commitment? My guess is that a judge would define this arrangement as a “casual relationship.”

          I have to admit that I don’t understand what I call the “bullshit in between.” A male friend of mine who dates and sleeps with multiple women calls them “sexual romances.” To me, you are either hooking up or you are dating with the intent to find out if something could develop with more depth. And if you are hooking up, you are just hooking up … for an hour a week. You’re not dating and going out and doing things and meeting each others’ friends, etc. It’s difficult to care about someone part-time and on very limited terms. I don’t want to invest in someone if it’s clear to him the situation is going nowhere.

  6. 6
    Karmic Equation

    I usually agree with Tom10. But on this one, I agree with Adrian.

    My gut didn’t go, “Right on, Tom10,” like it usually does. It went, “Yeah I can see that.” But with Adrian’s answer, it felt more “right” to me.

    Doesn’t mean I’m right. But usually, I have good instincts. 🙂

    Players don’t play “fun dates.” They text at 9, 10, 11pm, “Hey what’s up? You wanna come over?”

    If there are any dates to be planned, he expects HER to plan them.

    So the fact that the guy is planning them means that he’s not a player. Or he’s a different brand of player. Can’t say, as I’ve only dated one brand.

    Regardless of what HE wants, the important thing is for OP to get clarity. OP should be authentic and own up to her change of feelings. “Look, at 3 weeks, I wasn’t into you. But now I am. Where do you want to go from here?” She doesn’t need to elaborate, or over apologize, or over analyze. Just ask what he wants. And listen.

    However, she before she has this conversation, she needs to be prepared for the worse case scenario: He wants to stay casual.

    Can she live with that? If not, can she live with no contact?

    It sounds like she would be ok to stay casual. But if I were her, I’d draw that line in the sand. If he says “no go”, then she needs to go no contact. If she can’t go no contact, then don’t have the conversation, and learn to live with ambiguity and continue to date other men until she’s ready to have it or he brings it up. She shouldn’t go No Contact to “manipulate” him but rather to protect herself from further emotional investment in a guy who isn’t interested in an LTR with her.

    Women should only have FWB relationships with men they don’t want as LTR partners. Once the feelings change from NSA to I want commitment, she needs to get out and go No Contact. Otherwise, she’s going to get hurt, especially if he decides to commit to someone else.

    1. 6.1
      Tom10

      @ Karmic Equation
      “I usually agree with Tom10”
       
      Yay 🙂
       
      But on this one, I agree with Adrian.”
       
      Aw 🙁
       
      “Players don’t plan “fun dates.”
       
      Well they do if she’s attractive, easy-going and he genuinely likes her; that way he gets to keep seeing her for three months – the length of time most women will spend with a guy before forcing him to either sh*t or get off the pot.
       
      Players know that texting at 9, 10, 11pm saying “Hey what’s up? You wanna come over?”  is so lazy and obvious that they don’t even care if she ignores him. Therefore, they’ll step up their efforts quite a bit to keep a decent prospect going for some time.
       
      “So the fact that the guy is planning them means that he’s not a player. Or he’s a different brand of player. Can’t say, as I’ve only dated one brand.”
       
      Ah players are usually of a similar brand; however, they’ll behave differently according to how much they want to retain their current option and how many options they have at the time/what level their confidence is at.
       
      But our concluding advice is the same so; she needs to step it up in order to assess his true intentions.
       
      Only further evidence will give stronger clues as to his intentions from the very outset; and reveals whose dating “instincts” are better.
       
      Mwah ha ha 🙂
       
       
      By the way, I’m not necessarily saying this guy is a player; rather that he is comfortable with the current “casual” arrangement and therefore has no motivation to be her boyfriend.

      1. 6.1.1
        Karmic Equation

        “By the way, I’m not necessarily saying this guy is a player; rather that he is comfortable with the current “casual” arrangement and therefore has no motivation to be her boyfriend.”

        Ok. I can understand that.

        It will definitely be interesting at what the result is.

        If OP is as confident and woman-of-the-world as she implies, she should be comfortable asking him to sh*t or get off the pot and will report back the results in the same manner.

      2. 6.1.2
        Kate

        Well they do if she’s attractive, easy-going and he genuinely likes her; that way he gets to keep seeing her for three months – the length of time most women will spend with a guy before forcing him to either sh*t or get off the pot.

        Exactly!  I’m saying you’re right Tom.  Player this guy is probably not, but he’s definitely not boyfriend material

    2. 6.2
      Adrian

      Hi Karimc Equation and Tom10,

      __I remember going to Denmark a few year back the summer of my  junior undergrad year in college. A lot of the local girls were heavily flirting with us and trying to get us to choose them. I don’t believe it was actually us they were so into, but the fact that we were Americans-I don’t know how else to explain it, I have never been called exotic before in my life.

      __What surprised me the most was the way the guys with girlfriends acted. I was shocked that guys who just a week prior I would have sworn they could have never even thought about cheating, were just as heavily flirting back, kissing, touching sexually, etc (most of these girls did look 10 times better than their girlfriends).

      __My point is, I can see a guy who has the intention of being a good boyfriend, but he is push by a woman he likes to just remain casual while still having sex, and dating other people; I can see a guy becoming comfortable with the possibilities that opens up.

      …   …   …

      __But as far as players. I had a similar conversation with Emily on a different post a while back. From my observation, most guys my age or younger are wanna-be players. They lack true game, skills, forethought, or patience to be a true player. The only real players I have ever met were usually much older guys who have been doing it so long that it was second nature to them.

      __Tom10 is right that they would put in work to get a hot girl, but none I know would keep it up for almost 3 months (the amount of time Kelly said this guy has been courting her)! So Tom10 I agree with Karmic Equation, most players give just enough to keep the girl coming back. Plus Kelly said that they spend 2-3 days a week <every week> together. That is waaay too much time to dedicate to just one woman if you want to be out chasing others.

      …   …   …

      __I think we all agree that she should talk to him about it and then decide what to do based upon his answer.

      1. 6.2.1
        GoWiththeFlow

        Adrian,

        “From my observation, most guys my age or younger are wanna-be players. They lack true game, skills, forethought, or patience to be a true player.”

        My son was what you would call a natural with girls.  Some would say he was a player.  Always had girls calling and texting him (drove me nuts at dinner time.)  Then there were girls he initiated contact with and pursued on his own, to varying degrees, a few of which he never got.  And I only know a fraction of it.

        I think the term “player” has negative connotations.  That a player is a user, a manipulator, knows he will hurt a woman but doesn’t care, etc.  A player may have learned how to manipulate women from PUA sites/writings.  The overall impression of a player is that he really doesn’t like women, he just wants to get sex and brag to his guy friends about it.  To a player scoring with multiple women is a status symbol and ultimately what he wants is the status, the sex is almost a secondary thing.

        Someone who is a natural with women, actually likes women.  In that he will enjoy women’s company even if the interaction won’t directly lead to him getting laid.  A natural usually likes his mother, sisters, female coworkers and has female friends.  A natural doesn’t need PUA instructions.  Women like him because he likes women.  The result of which is he doesn’t lack for opportunities for casual sex, STRs, and LTRs.

        A natural may start out thinking a situation will be a STR, then realize he really enjoys the woman’s company and therefore he will increasingly spend time with her.  Possibly this is what the OP’s guy is doing since he sounds attentive.  A player, who has already scored the notch on his bedpost, would only do what he needed to do to keep the door open for sex.  Because he really doesn’t like women that much and sees no use in spending that extra time with one he’s already f-ing.  You are right on that.

         

        1. Adrian

          Hi GoWithTheFlow,

          __Great distinction between a player and just a guy good with women.

          __In your opinion, what is the difference between a female player and a woman who just wants to keep dating various guys for a few months until she knows which one she want to commit to?

          …   …   …

          __I won’t go too deep into this because it is off topic, but your statement, “<He>always had girls calling and texting him” is why I’m always asking you questions about nature vs nurture. Because once I returned to college to obtain my masters, I now have the benefit of being in the environment and observing young people, but with a mature mind.

          __In doing so, I realized that the majority of the things we say or that is written about courting and if a man is interested he  would do this or a woman shouldn’t do that to keep a guy from losing interest, doesn’t hold true. In high school and college, women approached if she liked a guy, and guys were not magically turned off if a girl asked for his number.

          __It’s like once we are told these are the rules you must follow as this gender once you reach a certain age. And we are told to believe and accept it as divine/biological/evolutionary truth.

          …   …   …

          Oh well, a discussion for another post.

        2. GoWiththeFlow

          Adrian,

          “In your opinion, what is the difference between a female player and a woman who just wants to keep dating various guys for a few months until she knows which one she want to commit to?”

          That’s a difficult question because women have such a different approach to dating and different priorities than men.  That whole men look for sex and women look for love thing.

          I think a woman “player” isn’t just looking for sex from a variety of men, she is looking for the best total package she can get, and she’ll move on quickly from one guy to the next.  Usually these women are very pretty and get hit on by men a lot!  It seems they are able to hold back emotions and choose to attach to a man after all of the boxes have been checked off on her list.  It’s all kinds a business deal for them, and they tend to be cynical about love and they view relationships as being transactional.

          “The majority of the things we say or that is written about courting and if a man is interested he  would do this or a woman shouldn’t do that to keep a guy from losing interest, doesn’t hold true. In high school and college, women approached if she liked a guy, and guys were not magically turned off if a girl asked for his number.”

          “It’s like once we are told these are the rules you must follow as this gender once you reach a certain age. And we are told to believe and accept it as divine/biological/evolutionary truth.”

          I think there has been huge generational changes that account for a lot of the differing behavior and attitudes, with a big assist from technology; texting, cell phones, internet, etc.  I can see huge changes in expectations and what is acceptable behavior between my mom’s generation and the millennials today.

          When I was a young teen, my mother told me not to call boys.  It was unlady-like!  Once I called by math lab partner, who–ahem–just happened to be a very cute guy to go over our assignment. (Never was so excited to go to a math class.)  By the talking to I got from my mom, you would have thought I had kicked a puppy.  If  a girl liked a guy, instead of directly approaching, she would drag her friend to go stand by his locker, or park herself into the chair next to him in class.  Try to get in his path, smile, shake her hair, tilt her head to the side, etc.  This was advice that was recommended in teenybopper magazines like Seventeen.

          So when my son turned 14-15 and the phones, landline then cell, started blowing up, I was surprised at how “forward” girls had become.  I think that intellectually you can believe in an idea like equality in dating, etc. but stuff falls apart in practice because then we are in feeling mode and not thinking mode.  So it’s a big mental leap for me to have gone from the expected-to-remain-a-virgin-until-marriage teen who was admonished to not call boys, to a grown woman who messages to men first in OLD.  I do think things are better, since people have more options, but it sure has evolved from what was “truth” when I was a kid.

           

      2. 6.2.2
        Tom10

        Hi Adrian,
         
        That’s funny; when I was in Denmark I didn’t get much reaction at all, maybe as fellow European I wasn’t really considered “exotic,” however, I tend to get a very positive response from American women!
         
        “I was shocked that guys who just a week prior I would have sworn they could have never even thought about cheating, were just as heavily flirting back, kissing, touching sexually, etc (most of these girls did look 10 times better than their girlfriends).”
         
        Well that’s kinda understandable really isn’t? Receiving such overt attention from women 10 times better looking than their girlfriends must be very flattering! If these ladies are throwing themselves at me that must mean I’m hot stuff! Therefore, why am I going out with an average woman?!
         
        “he is push by a woman he likes to just remain casual while still having sex, and dating other people;”
         
        Hmm, I disagree a bit that she pushed him for just casual. I accept she was unsure of her level of interest at the beginning (that said, she slept with on the third date, so she must have had some attraction), but it was him who initiated the “let’s keep it casual” discussion.
         
        “From my observation, most guys my age or younger are wanna-be players. They lack true game, skills, forethought, or patience to be a true player.”
         
        You’re late 20s is it? I think players usually have theirs skills pretty well honed by that age – if they haven’t, they probably never will. I mean they’ve had ten years of practice at that point!
         
        “The only real players I have ever met were usually much older guys who have been doing it so long that it was second nature to them.”
         
        How old are you talking?
         
        “Tom10 is right that they would put in work to get a hot girl, but none I know would keep it up for almost 3 months”
         
        But how much work did he actually put in? Meeting twice a week for three weeks isn’t that much work really, especially if he actually enjoys hanging out with her.
         
        Introducing her to his friends? Simple. Being attentive and kind? Simple. Communicating frequently? Simple. 10 weeks of this behavior proves nothing imo. None of these actions are any indications of his true intentions.
         
        He slept with her on the third date, so after that; he knew he just had to keep her ticking over to keep her around.
         
        “That is waaay too much time to dedicate to just one woman if you want to be out chasing others.”
         
        Well not all players are continuously playing as it is such an energy/time intensive activity; sometimes they need a break. In these situations having an attractive regular can be very handy indeed.
         
        Ultimately what decides the issue here is his intention/motivation; does he consider her as potential girlfriend material? Or did he just see her as someone to date for X amount of time from the very start? My hunch is that he saw her as the latter. However, I admit the evidence for my conclusion is quite weak, therefore, I stand to be corrected.
         
        “I think we all agree that she should talk to him about it and then decide what to do based upon his answer.”
         
        Agreed. 🙂

        1. Adrian

          Geez Tom10!

          Your going to make me work (-_-), I usually come to the comments section to relax. It was a fluke I tell you, you’re Karmic’s favorite; I’m just the guy she smiles at over the counter to get a free bagel (^_^).

          …      …      …

          __I will address a few of your points.

          __We don’t know if she pushed him, we do know that she was enthusiastic about the idea of keeping it just casual. Kelly said, “I was very happy to confirm the “just casual” thing.”

          __So my take away from that was that she lead with her body language and he acquiesced out of fear of appearing needy. Maybe she was projecting uneasy when he brought it up so he backed off.

          __You know we men can tell how into us a woman is by how excited she is about being with us. It is possible that when he said lets talk she got nervous and he sensed it.

          __(It is also possible that he only brought up the topic because he just met some other hottie online… we don’t know.)

          __Also notice that she did not say that he brought up being casual, what she said was, “ He brought the topic up. What topic? The topic of defining their relationship.

          __What Kelly actually said about being casual is, “we had a conversation defining that our relationship was just casual.” To me this is her telling us the conclusion of the conversation, not that he brought up the idea of being causal.

          …   …   …

          __I can’t add anymore on players and casual men, because as GoWithTheFlow and Karmic Equation stated, I can only talk about the types that I have been around.

  7. 7
    Tom10

    Hi again Adrian
    “Your going to make me work (-_-), I usually come to the comments section to relax”
     
    Sorry Adrian! But surely it’s a good thing to be kept on your toes though eh? 🙂
     
    “We don’t know if she pushed him, we do know that she was enthusiastic about the idea of keeping it just casual. Kelly said, “I was very happy to confirm the “just casual” thing.”
     
    Okay, this is true.
     
    “Also notice that she did not say that he brought up being casual, what she said was, “ He brought the topic up. What topic? The topic of defining their relationship.”
     
    Okay this is another fair point; he only raised the topic and an agreement was reached; it’s not clear as to who mentioned “casual” first.
     
    ————-
     
    Adrian, let’s say you’ve been single for a while, are open to the idea of a relationship and then you meet a really great girl; she’s cute, fun, easy-going, the same age and seems worth pursuing.
     
    So you go on a date or two and you’re still interested. However, you’re not really sure if she’s interested. Then on the third date you sleep with her. This is a reasonably big clue that she’s interested. Odds are you’ll feel that things are going pretty good.
     
    So you see her again twice the next week and everything is rolling along nicely; you’ve been on a few dates and slept together a few times now. You suspect she might still be dating others but you don’t want to rock the boat just yet.
     
    So now it’s three weeks in and you’re thinking this could, just possibly, maybe, lead to something real. However, you’re still unsure how keen she is, suspect that she’s not 100% keen yet and might still be dating others.
     
    You want to keep seeing her with the genuine hope that it could develop into a relationship, but you don’t want to appear needy/pushy either.
     
    Would you feel this is a good time to raise the DTR discussion in such a scenario? I would guess not; most likely you would continue to play it cool for another few weeks so that you could get a stronger handle on her interest and not risk scaring her off.
     
    After 6 to 8 weeks you will have a clearer idea where she stands and thus be in a better position to raise the DTR discussion.
     
    ———————–
     
    Kelly’s guy didn’t do this; he brought up the discussion at much earlier, more ambiguous time (after a few sex sessions but before any chance of a relationship) to force the issue; he knew that no reasonable person could commit/decide within just 3 weeks. Thus he knew that her only realistic response was going to agree to keep it casual “for the moment” (which she gladly accepted!).
     
    In effect, he has forced her to give him his “get-out” card on a plate from the get-go. Check-mate.
     
     
    In truth, she was snookered once she slept with him so early without knowing his intentions – she was never going to win after this, and he knows it.

    All that said, it’ll be hilarious if I’m proved totally wrong and they’re now in a committed relationship! 🙂

    1. 7.1
      Tom10

      Okay Adrian,
       
      You win; it seems I got it completely wrong 🙁
       
      Maybe I’m just too darn cynical and need to look more for the good in people a bit more.

    2. 7.2
      Adrian

      Hi Tom10,

      __One of the problems I see with your scenario is that it is too one sided.

      __It does not take into consideration that her “boyfriend”-and not Kelly-was the one who was riding high on an oxytocin and dopamine chemical cocktail.

      __Most likely he is the one who got too attached after sex because she is out of his league physically, or the combination of her looks, personality, and great sex overwhelmed him.

      __Kelly said, “Frankly, I didn’t think the relationship was going anywhere — I wasn’t that into him initially.”  Remember also Tom10 that many of the various female commentators have repeatedly stated through the years that they will sleep with a guy whom they don’t see a future with or who they are not really attracted to because it is easier for them not to get attached.

      __Also remember what EMK.com’s very own patron saint Karmic Equation always says about no strings attached sex, “women are just as capable as men of having sex and not getting emotionally attached.” She and Evan battled over this in the Why Women Should Make Men Wait for Sex post; but she was not the lone voice on the stance that women can have sex and it means nothing.

      __In fact Kelly her self even said this “But he kept planning fun things to do, and as we spent more time together, I became very attracted and attached.” It was not this man’s skills in the bedroom or even the chemical highs of oxytocin and dopamine that caused Kelly to fall  for this man, it was his character and his consistent willingness to patiently court her.

      …   …   …

      __My point is, Tom10 you have to be careful not to fall into the trap of thinking women don’t enjoy sex as much as we do. Or think that for all women to have sex it has to mean something.

      __Now take all that and apply the inverse. We have to be careful not to fall into the trap of thinking men only get carnal pleasure from sex. Or think that for all men sex has no deeper meaning; lacks emotional bonding.

      …   …   …

      __Tom10 if I may ask, how old are you and what country are you from?

      __You mentioned earlier that you are European, yet you contribute frequently to this blog. One day I would love to hear your opinions on the various differences between how we date here in America verse other countries. I never thought there was a difference until a few weeks back when I met a group consisting of British and Australians soccer players at the airport and we got to talking about… women (^_^).

      __Yet since you use the advice of this blog, maybe there aren’t that many differences; those guys seemed more like the party type, not the type who would use this blog where the focus is on long-term love and marriage.

      1. 7.2.1
        Tom10

        @ Adrian#7.2

        “One of the problems I see with your scenario is that it is too one sided”
         
        Okay I accept that.

        “My point is, Tom10 you have to be careful not to fall into the trap of thinking women don’t enjoy sex as much as we do. Or think that for all women to have sex it has to mean something.”

        Well yes I’m actually very aware of this phenomenon – having only learned after being on the receiving end of a few burns.

        “Now take all that and apply the inverse. We have to be careful not to fall into the trap of thinking men only get carnal pleasure from sex. Or think that for all men sex has no deeper meaning; lacks emotional bonding.”

        Yes, I accept I can be guilty of this in some of my comments; in fact I’m actually shocked at how many regular guys *genuinely* attribute meaning to sex and emotionally bond through sex. Sex is like food to me so it takes a big mental leap to appreciate how many guys actually attribute meaning to sex.

        “Tom10 if I may ask, how old are you and what country are you from?”

        I’m 32 and from Ireland.

        “One day I would love to hear your opinions on the various differences between how we date here in America verse other countries.”

        Well, let today be that day!
         
        “maybe there aren’t that many differences”

        Well, in general I find it very similar here to the US, but here are a few differences which form/affect our dating environment:
         
        Marriage

        You get married far younger and far more often than we do. Getting married under 25 is just unheard of and before 30 is rare. Second marriages here are unusual; third and subsequent marriages are simply unheard of.

        Divorce

        You have one of the highest divorce rates in the world; we have one of the lowest. In fact, would you believe that I don’t know a single person who is divorced (excluding contributors to this board)?!

        Dating Style

        I think you still have a more “formal” dating culture there (although I believe that’s changing rapidly due to the hook-up culture); “dinner dates” are rare here. 5 mile military hikes are unheard of! (just kidding Buck).

        Abortion

        I believe it’s fairly ubiquitous in the US whereas it’s illegal here (although we have a way around this when/if necessary). However, I’m not sure if that has any meaningful implications on dating behavior; I only mention it as there is a 5 year old on-going thread about abortion on this blog.

        Race

        Until 15 years ago or so racial diversity was quite rare, therefore; dating homogeneity is still the norm here. I’m fascinated to read about the different experiences of black/Asian/white contributors on this blog as we have very little of that. I mean it’s never even crossed my mind to consider dating someone from outside my race as the opportunity hardly ever arises.

        Circular Dating

        I understand that it’s quite normal there to date several people at the same time; indeed until commitment is declared it is almost expected that both parties will still be dating other people. That’s not very common here; many people just (naïvely perhaps) assume exclusivity from the first or second date!

        However, I really had to think hard to come up with those differences, which leads me to conclude that there are more similarities than differences.

        “those guys seemed more like the party type, not the type who would use this blog where the focus is on long-term love and marriage.”

        Well they probably are the party type, but party types often want to have partners and children too…eventually!

        What differences did you note between America and other places you’re familiar with Adrian?

        1. Buck25

          “Five mile military hikes are unheard of!”

          Tom,

          Still LMAO over that one! Matter of fact, KE just mentioned it too, in an earlier post in another thread. I think the story of my “morning walk” test (aka “Buck’s war on SIF’s”), may live forever here ( in infamy, especially among the distaff set)! Yes, I know some here considered the tactic crude, and perhaps even a bit reprehensible, but at the time, I considered it self-defense. In any event, it’s strictly an online dating problem, and since I stopped focusing on finding a relationship, and started concentrating on having a life I can enjoy with or without a girlfriend, I’ve found I’m far too busy having fun to waste any energy on that world of confusion, illusion and delusion known as Match.com.

        2. Karmic Equation

          “…since I stopped focusing on finding a relationship, and started concentrating on having a life I can enjoy with or without a girlfriend, I’ve found I’m far too busy having fun to waste any energy on that world of confusion, illusion and delusion known as Match.com.”

          That’s the best way to find a relationship. Happy people are more attractive than those who are not.

          And yes, very few people will forget the 5 mile hikes you subjected your dates to. Unreal. lol

        3. Buck25

          “And yes, very few people will forget the 5 mile hikes you subjected your dates to.Unreal.”

          @Karmic,

          Ok, I did do it, I did post it, and I own it! However, fair is fair, and for the benefit of those newcomers who missed the origin of this, I didn’t subject all my dates to that; just the ones who had blatantly lied online about their weight/fitness level, hence the term “Buck’s war on SIF’s”. I promise not to do it again, though. Now, am I forgiven, or still on “double secret probation”?  🙂

      2. 7.2.2
        Emily, the original

        Adrian,

        My point is, Tom10 you have to be careful not to fall into the trap of thinking women don’t enjoy sex as much as we do. Or think that for all women to have sex it has to mean something.

        Or that sex means she’s really into the guy, even on a physical level. Sometimes an option presents itself, he’s doing all the work (pursuing) and she thinks … why not? Men seem to think that sex is proof of attraction. Sometimes it is; sometimes it’s not.

        1. Buck25

          “Men seem to think that sex is proof of attraction. Sometimes it is; sometimes it’s not”.

          Hi Emily,

          That’s a very useful observation. The mere fact that most women don’t usually separate sex from emotions the same way men do, doesn’t mean they can’t. At least some can and will, if and when it suits them; one can easily see that from stories some have shared on this blog, of doing exactly that, and not always because they were really “into” the man in question.

          I had something like that happen to me on a date a couple years back. The woman, very near my own age, had been widowed less than two years before, and this was her first real date since (according to her, anyway). We’d met online, talked by phone, and agreed to meet for the first time over cocktails. The meeting went well enough that we decided to have dinner together, which we did. The conversation flowed, dinner went a bit late; and afterwards,  she invited me to follow her back to her place for coffee and some more conversation.

          When we got there, the lights were low, the soft romantic music was playing, and as soon as we started dancing, she got very physical, very fast. I was born at night, but it wasn’t last night, and the couple of drinks I’d had couldn’t obscure the obviously choreographed nature of the whole thing. She had clearly decided, for some reason of her own, that she was most likely going to have sex that night with a guy she knew only from a few emails and a phone conversation, and set everything up at her place before she left for the date. Was she “into me”? Possibly, (and I’d like to flatter myself with the belief that she might have been ), but more likely, so long as she found me at least marginally acceptable, it didn’t really matter to her, not then, and not for whatever her agenda was. All that’s certain, is that where women are concerned, things are not always what they seem. I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again, women can be very complicated creatures, who will do unpredictable things, for unpredictable reasons, beyond a man’s capacity to explain or understand; perhaps that’s what makes you so fascinating to us. 🙂

        2. Shaukat

          Sometimes an option presents itself, he’s doing all the work (pursuing) and she thinks … why not? Men seem to think that sex is proof of attraction. Sometimes it is; sometimes it’s not.

          Great point, Emily. I had to learn that the hard way:)

        3. Karmic Equation

          Hey Shaukat,

          Just to qualify this a little bit.

          Some women can have sex without wanting a relationship.

          I think Emily is an outlier in that I don’t think that most women can have sex UNLESS she finds the man reasonably attractive in some way (physically or attitudinally), no matter how hotly she is pursued by him. If a woman doesn’t find a man at least physically attractive, most women would cringe at the thought of banging him.

          So, in YOUR case, it may very well be that she found you attractive in enough ways to have sex with you on a regular basis, BUT either she didn’t want you as a LT partner OR (like the OP Kelly) she could have had some other situation going on that she didn’t want to end.

          The long and short of it is, some women can have sex without wanting a committed relationship with that guy. My ex-player bf and I had a brief after-breakup FWB situation. I was happy to have “just” a sexual relationship with him. He just had too many red flags to be a good LT partner.

          Not saying YOU raised red flags, btw. While MOST women think/want sex = relationships, there are women who can separate those two needs.

           

        4. Emily, the original

          Buck25,

          Well … hope you don’t mind me asking, but did you seal the deal with this woman? 🙂   I mean, since she had made it so easy.

          Was she “into me”? Possibly, (and I’d like to flatter myself with the belief that she might have been ), but more likely, so long as she found me at least marginally acceptable, it didn’t really matter to her, not then, and not for whatever her agenda was.

          Here’s a question: Do men want to feel singled out and made to feel special? I know a lot of women do. They don’t want to feel they could have been any number of dozens of women to fill some kind of role. But is that important to men? Men seem to, on the whole, find a much larger number of people appealing than women do.

        5. Emily, the original

          Karmic Equation,

          I think Emily is an outlier in that I don’t think that most women can have sex UNLESS she finds the man reasonably attractive in some way (physically or attitudinally), no matter how hotly she is pursued by him.

          I never said I was referring to myself, but I remember a letter on this very site in which the woman had MARRIED a man she wasn’t attracted to. There are women who will have relationships with men they aren’t into physically. Google it. A ton of articles come up.

          My point was a woman’s motivation to have sex with a man isn’t always that’s she be really into the guy physically. It could be for validation, to get over someone else, to make someone else  jealous … The list is endless.

        6. Shaukat

          My point was a woman’s motivation to have sex with a man isn’t always that’s she be really into the guy physically. It could be for validation, to get over someone else, to make someone else  jealous … The list is endless.

          This is certainly true, but in such cases a woman would usually just have a ONS with a guy from a bar/club/tinder/coffee shop immediately after meeting him. Very rarely would she let him pursue her over several dates, sleep with him and then immediately bail. And very rarely would she do this with a guy she wasn’t really physically attracted to, though, as Karmic mentioned, I realize many women can separate emotions and relationships from sex.

          Quite frankly, most women don’t need to settle sexually for guys they aren’t at all physically attracted to, because there is usually an abundance of NSA sex available to them. This is actually why, even though I am absolutely against the practice of stigmatizing or judging women who choose to engage in casual sex, there is nonetheless a rational basis for this double standard. We all know that barring physical deformity or morbid obesity, most women can get sex simply by stepping outside. For a man, on the other hand, it takes a bit more skill.

           

        7. Buck25

          Emily,

          “…did you seal the deal…?”

          No, I didn’t, and I don’t blame you for asking what man in his right mind turns down easy sex, and not just with any “she’ll do for one night” sort of woman, at that.  I didn’t mention that the lady in question was in fact one of the most beautiful women I’ve ever dated. Lovely face, deep expressive eyes, and a sweet smile, very nice figure,-curvy, in the best sense of the term; her profile photos didn’t begin to do her justice…and she had a personality to match-bright, lively, upbeat. The vibe I got from her was exquisitely feminine. There was nothing not to like. Was I attracted? You bet! Did I want her! Damn right!!

          I suppose the added info above makes what I didn’t do that night sound even crazier, and I guess I need to explain myself before anyone reading this concludes that old Buck  (a) finally lost his mind, and needs to be carted off to the happy home  (b) turned beta after all these years, or  even (c) is actually gay and about to come out of the closet. ( none of those are true, but I’m sure McLovin and the rest of the PUA types here would say my man card should be revoked for this one anyway). Well, this may take a bit, but bear with me, and then you can decide.

          Now I knew from our phone conversation that this lady had been married to her late husband for over 30 years. He was a good bit older than she, but their relationship had been beautiful; he must have loved her very much, and obviously she felt the same about him. The last ten years or so, his health had failed, their physical relationship was a thing of the past; but she stood by him and took care of him until the end. Remember that on top of that I also knew that this was her first foray back into the dating world since his passing.

          Fast forward to the scene back at her place. While she had obviously planned at least the possibility before ever meeting me face to face, and was now quite literally all over me, there was something else. In addition to the context above, something in her voice and the expression on her face didn’t quite match what she was doing; there was something beyond the usual mix of anxiety and anticipation I’d expect a woman to show in that situation; she seemed very conflicted, torn, as if she desperately needed to go through with this, and just as desperately wished she didn’t have to, all at once. I’ve never seen anything quite like this, and if she was faking any of it, she was one hell of an actress. Couple of times she pulled back, looked at me, and said something like “I want this so bad, but I’m not sure I can”; and then acted wildly turned on again. I’ll never be sure what was going through her mind; I couldn’t figure out whether she was asking me to help her do this, or help her stop. Was she trying to prove to herself she was still sexy, or thinking that to keep a man she wanted, she’d have to be willing and able to have sex early on, and wanting a trial run to find out if she could handle that? I know, I know, any adult woman that age should be responsible for the consequences of her own choices…and she was obviously willing to use me to find out what her limits were. At the same time though, she was in a pretty vulnerable place, so did I have the right to use her in return? My hormones and ego wanted to go full speed ahead, and my instinct told me the last of her resistance was about to crumble. I looked in her eyes, and what I saw was a woman who had painted herself into a corner and found it more than she had bargained for…

          So, I stopped, and told her we didn’t have to go there, if she wasn’t sure she was ready; that it was ok, either way. She relaxed a little, put her head on my shoulder, and we just sat there for a while. I finally told her I thought I should go, but she asked me to stay. She seemed pretty emotionally shaky still, so I asked if she’d feel better if we just went to sleep together, with our clothes on. She said yes, so we did; I remember she said, “Most guys would have used me tonight; you didn’t”, and with that, she just smiled, put her head on my chest, and went to sleep. She was still half asleep when I kissed her goodbye sometime after sun up. I never saw her again; just a text from her a couple days later that said she’d learned she wasn’t as ready as she thought she was.

          Did I overprotect a woman who might not have really wanted me to, after she put herself in that situation? Or did I throw a lifeline to a woman who, trying to take a brave step toward a new beginning, didn’t see the emotional quicksand where she thought was solid ground? Did I fail to lead her as a man should, or this time, was compassion and understanding the better part of manhood? I’ll let you decide. And what did she mean by that remark, “Most guys would have used me tonight”; was she disappointed and frustrated that I didn’t do what she thought most guys would have, relieved that I didn’t, or maybe a little of both? I’ll never know. All I know is that no matter what we want,  or how much we want it, sometimes it just doesn’t feel like the right time.

          On your other question, about men wanting to feel singled out, and made to feel special? Well, I can’t speak for all men, but I know I do. Most of us know that not every woman we meet, or even most, will find us special at all; no matter who we are, there’s always somebody better, objectively speaking. They’re not going to think we’re an Adonis, or the greatest lover ever, or a hero they admire; to most women, most of the time, we don’t come close to being any of that; but I think there’s a part of us, that hopes there’s one woman out there we could care about, who would think we’re all of those, at least in her sight.

           

        8. Nissa

          Buck25,

          I just want to say that I thought what you did was lovely and appropriate. It takes a real man to recognize that ‘mixed signals’ is often ‘not quite yes’ and to respond to that with compassion. I know that it’s how I would have liked to be treated in that situation.

          I would guess that you are correct in regard to her thoughts at that time, it comes across as her trying to move past the no-sex part of her life, because she’s been missing the physical, yet not quite ready emotionally, to her own surprise.

        9. Emily, the original

          Buck25,

          I am going to agree with Nissa on this one:

          I would guess that you are correct in regard to her thoughts at that time, it comes across as her trying to move past the no-sex part of her life, because she’s been missing the physical, yet not quite ready emotionally, to her own surprise.

          Sometimes it’s been so long since you’ve done anything with anyone, you need to know if you are even a sexual being anymore.

          As to your question: Did I fail to lead her as a man should, or this time, was compassion and understanding the better part of manhood? I’ll let you decide.

          You have what I call a sense of sexual responsibility. You could tell she was vulnerable, and you didn’t want to take advantage of that, even if the situation was only going to last an evening. You are an evolved person, an evolved man, who seems to feel things deeply and consider how his actions affect other people. That is to be commended!

        10. ScottH

          holy crap Buck… what a story!  I want you to be my mentor.  Wish I could meet you some day.

        11. Emily, the original

          Shaukat,

          Emily wrote: My point was a woman’s motivation to have sex with a man isn’t always that’s she be really into the guy physically. It could be for validation, to get over someone else, to make someone else  jealous … The list is endless.

          Shaukat wrote: This is certainly true, but in such cases a woman would usually just have a ONS with a guy from a bar/club/tinder/coffee shop immediately after meeting him. Very rarely would she let him pursue her over several dates, sleep with him and then immediately bail. And very rarely would she do this with a guy she wasn’t really physically attracted to, though, as Karmic mentioned, I realize many women can separate emotions and relationships from sex.

          I’m not sure which sexual motivation you are referring to (validation? to make someone jealous?) … but in the case of making someone jealous, do you know who Rita Moreno is? Are you a fan of Old Hollywood? A beautiful actress from the movie “West Side Story.” She wrote in her recently published memoir that she was having a very torrid (and toxic) relationship with Marlon Brando and she dated Elvis  — ELVIS!– to make Brando jealous. Elvis, the man so many women were drooling over. She wrote that Elvis was not a particularly good lover. I believe they dated/hooked up more than once. So in order to make Brando jealous, it wasn’t a hit-it-and-quit-it situation with Elvis. She allowed Elvis to pursue her.

        12. ScottH

          Better yet,,, let’s have a convention of Evan’s readers so we can all meet.  maybe somewhere in the geographic center of the country, like Detroit.  I hear it’s nice there.  Be sure to invite Karl R and his wife and Obsidian.

        13. Buck25

          “Sometimes it’s been so long since you’ve done anything, with anyone, you need to know if you’re even a sexual being anymore

          @Emily,

          Yes, and I think that was the case with this lady. The uncertainty of that has to be an agonizing thing for a woman of that age to deal with, in re-entering the dating world. On reflection, it’s not too hard to see why she would want to find out with a man she didn’t want to keep, rather than with someone she might really see as a potential relationship; less pressure on her that way (though still too much, as it turned out). So she planned to offer up, in exchange, a one night stand to whoever that man was (just happened to be me); no doubt she thought that more than a fair bargain; and if she arguably used me, I’m not sure it matters; there was no malice in it.

          If there’s a final lesson here, maybe it’s that no matter what we wish, some things we want, aren’t ours to have; some gifts we would give, aren’t ours to give; they’re meant for someone else, some other time, and the best we can do, is to do no harm. With that, I think we can close the book on little tale.

          “I thought what you did was lovely and appropriate”

          @ Nissa,

          Thanks for the kind words; much appreciated.

           

          “I want you to be my mentor”

          @ Scott,

          Thanks, but don’t get carried away; even a stopped clock is right twice a day, you know. 🙂 Seriously, if I had all the answers, I wouldn’t have spent the last several months reflecting and re-evaluating; after that, and a life-changing experience (for the better) along the way, I find myself still trying to be sure I’m asking the right questions. For now I’m still on the sidelines. There’s some work I have to do yet, before I go back in the game..

           

           

        14. Emily, the original

          Buck25,

          With that, I think we can close the book on little tale.

          🙁      Don’t deprive me and the other women on this site of your tales!

    3. 7.3
      Karmic Equation

      Tom10 and Adrian,

      I really enjoyed your discourse in this thread.

      You two are probably the youngest men who comment regularly on emk.com — I believe Gabri’el is the youngest  (I wonder where he’s been?) — but you are both two of the most self-aware men who comment here. And you both have that rare capacity to admit being flawed or wrong without going “beta.” In fact, I feel that your ability to admit fault is a sign of confidence. The kind stalwart type of confidence that all women seek in a man. When you both claim your future wives, they will be the luckiest of women.

      You are more than just the bagel boy I smile at, Adrian. Were I 20 years younger…I would probably abandon my no chasing stance 😉 hahaha

      Tom and I have already agreed that if we were on the same continent we’d go shoot pool. You can come along. Two handsome, empathetic, kind men on my arms…A girl can dream. lol

      Anyway, keep it up. I love seeing the opposite sides of the coin approach to women that you both seem to take. It reminds me why I find men fascinating and wonderful.

      1. 7.3.1
        GoWiththeFlow

        KE,

        If you ever get together with Tom and Adrian, I would love to tag along and bring my 3 20-something aged nieces.  I’m looking forward to being a great aunt someday!

        1. Karmic Equation

          Well, GWTF,

          I think you might want to rethink your lovely nieces meeting Tom10. I think he’s awesome, but he’s admitted himself that he’s not ready to settle down yet. You don’t want your nieces to fall for this charmer and get their hearts broken. lmao

          Now Adrian and Gabri’el, I believe they’re looking for Ms. Right, not Ms. Right Now, like Tom 😉

        2. Tom10

           @ Karmic Equation #7.3
          “I really enjoyed your discourse in this thread.”
           
          Thanks Karmic!
           
          “Tom and I have already agreed that if we were on the same continent we’d go shoot pool. You can come along. Two handsome, empathetic, kind men on my arms…A girl can dream. Lol”
           
          Er…it sounds very close to some sort of ménage á trois thing you’re setting up there, yikes!
          And with GWtF and her three nieces joining in it’s suddenly just got very interesting…
           
          I’m chuckling away here at the hilarity of the situation;
           
          Adrian: “okay, so where’s the pool table”
           
          GWtF enters: “so I’d like you to meet Kate, Michelle and Sarah…OMG what the hell is going on here!”
           
          Me: “um, oh, I see that I completely misread the situation here [again lol]” *(as I gingerly put my jeans back on).*
           
          You: “er Tom…I think you should probably just leave now”
           
          Just kidding! 😉
           
          “I think you might want to rethink your lovely nieces meeting Tom10”
           

          Hahaha – I was thinking the same thing! But in all seriousness I’m actually on an extended break from dating at the moment reasons so GWtF need not worry; I’d actually be very friendly and polite to her lovely nieces before going home early 🙁

        3. Karmic Equation

          Way too much imagination, Tom. No menages. lol

          Adrian and I will keep you liquored up so you can’t go home early without help.

          And we’d protect GWTF’s nieces from you somehow. I believe some Irish get more charming the more they drink. Or was that the Scottish?

          Eh, whateva. I’m taken now so I won’t fall. Would not prevent me from flirting up a storm though! haha

        4. GoWiththeFlow

          KE & Tom,

          Well look out, because my nieces are Irish on their dad’s side.  Two are bona fide natural redheads, the third is a blonde, and their mom is certifiably gorgeous, so it may just be Tom that needs protecting  😉

  8. 8
    Kelly

    OP here! I think Adrian is right in that when boyfriend brought the relationship talk up intially, I projected “freaked out.”  Retrospectively, “lets keep it casual” was the conclusion to the talk, not necessarily his initial aim (he says he focused on the addendum, which I had completely forgotten, of “…with the potential to revisit as this progresses.”)

    one thing I didn’t write in the original letter (because it makes me look bad) is that I had a classic long-standing fwb situation with another guy, who does not have long term relationship potential for a number of reasons. I was reluctant to give that up, even though I knew it was a bad situation.  BUT current boyfriend did all the right things to win me over in the end, and I am so happy that he did! Evan’s advice really helped me in cutting off that bad/noncommittal relationship for good and freeing myself up to be with a wonderful partner.

    1. 8.1
      SparklingEmerald

      Hi Kelly – Well I guess all my “theories” in my post below can be thrown out the window (that’s what I get for commenting after a brief “skimming” of the comments)

      I hope this all works out for you, but I am still a bit confused by your scenario.

      What was it about this guy that you  weren’t initially “that into him” ?  Was he not attractive enough, did you find his company boring, or was he too accomodating, or something else ?  Also, if you wanted a relationship that you made you feel safe, loved, etc.  why were you sleeping with at least two men, a FWB, a guy you weren’t attracted to, and “unenthusiastically” dating others ?  That seems to me counter-intuitive to finding a safe, loving relationship.

      The most common reason I’ve heard (from women) for sleeping with men they really aren’t into, is just plain horniness.  But you already had an outlet with your FWB, and possibly the other men you were “unenthusiastically” dating.  So that really leaves me wondering why you would sleep with a guy you weren’t attracted to and saw as going nowhere.  You weren’t just plain old horny (you had an FWB to take care of that) and you weren’t sleeping with him in the hopes of it turning into a relationship (since it was you who didn’t want a relationship with HIM)

      Also, I’m a bit confused about the long-standing FWB with no long term potential for many reasons.  Was one of those reasons that he just wasn’t that into you ?  You describe that relationship as “bad/non-committal” so that indicates to me that you weren’t really that into “casual” if you consider non-committal to be bad.  (or did you mean the relationship was bad AND non-committal, as opposed to bad BECAUSE it was non-committal.

      Were you sleeping with the FWB hoping it would turn into more ?

      Also, in your OP, you say that you don’t feel the need to be in THE relationship leading to marriage.  Do you think you would like to ever get married, or is that merely an option for you ?  Are you open to the idea of marriage, but are OK with a committed non-marriage relationship (or FWB, or sex with guys you aren’t into).  Do you want children ?  Or is marriage and children something you REALLY want, but feel that admitting that (even if just to yourself) makes you “needy” ?

      How will you feel if this guy brings up marriage “waaaaaaaay to soon” ?  Or a year from now, are we going to be hearing from you “My boyfriend proposed waaaaay to soon, but I freaked out, now I want to be married, how to do I get him to propose ?”

      Do you still associate with your FWB as just friends withOUT benefits, or did you cut him off completely ?

      I’m wondering if you are really into this guy now, or is he just the “safe bet” since he was so smitten with you, that he continued to woo you, when you communicated (by a combination of your actions, re-actions and “happy agreement” ) to him that this was strictly casual.  I’m wondering if he is just the consolation prize because the FWB didn’t work ?  (Ok now I sound like a red-piller)

      As I said, I am asking out of my own biases, and I come from a different generation than you (baby boomers, we were no angels either, in fact, we probably led the whole hook up culture thing, but this current generation has taken it up about 20 notches )

      I’ve never gone from “not into a guy” to wanting to be his girlfriend.  If I’m not into a guy, his “nice guy” actions don’t win me over.  In fact, they make me even MORE un-attracted.  (This is only true if there is NO initial attraction, if I’m into a guy and he pursues a relationship with me, my attraction GROWS)

      I’ve gone from being “into a guy” to not wanting him (usually due to bad behavior or dis-interest on his part, not because he dotes on me) but I haven’t gone from feeling “myeah” to wanting a relationship.

      So I apologise if my questions are off putting, but on this forum, that’s kind of what we do.  EMK give his advice, and many of analyze the crap out of situation.

      Inquiring minds want to know 🙂

      1. 8.1.1
        Kelly

        No offense taken!  I’ll try to address your questions one at a time…

        What was it about this guy that you  weren’t initially “that into him” ?

        I guess the answer is that I’ve been single-ish for a couple of years and have been pretty happy with that, so unless a guy is SUPER charming or SUPER attractive, I usually think “that was a pleasant way to pass a few hours” after a date, but don’t really get excited about it.  This guy was perfectly kind and pleasant after the first dates (and even interesting, funny, and smart), but there a million of those guys out there.  The thing that ended up setting him apart was his consistency, communication, and the fact that he planned dates that I was excited to go on (even if I wasn’t initially that excited about HIM).

        Also, if you wanted a relationship that you made you feel safe, loved, etc.  why were you sleeping with at least two men, a FWB, a guy you weren’t attracted to, and “unenthusiastically” dating others ?

        Feeling confident, safe, and loved is what I want out of a relationship; however I was happy enough not being in a relationship and having my various needs met by a “roster” of guys.  But once I start to catch real feelings, I’ve learned I need to make sure everyone is on the same page or I lose my confidence and become a needy insecure person that I don’t want to be.

        Also, I’m a bit confused about the long-standing FWB with no long term potential for many reasons.  Was one of those reasons that he just wasn’t that into you ? 

        It’s fair for you to be confused; it’s a confusing situation.  FWB and I dated briefly when I was in my early 20s, but his job and personality made him an inconsistent person and a bad partner.  He is not a bad person, however, and we do care about each other, we’re just not good together in a relationship.  The FWB arrangement wasn’t always perfect, but over the years it got to a place that worked for both of us while allowing us to each seek more suitable partners.  We will continue to be friends, without the benefits, but with significantly decreased contact/communication.

        Also, in your OP, you say that you don’t feel the need to be in THE relationship leading to marriage.  Do you think you would like to ever get married, or is that merely an option for you ?O

        I do want to get married and have kids, but I don’t think 27 is quite old enough (for me, at least), to be evaluating people based on their “husband potential.”  That’s not what I am looking for out of a relationship right now, although I’m certainly open to it developing that way.  BF and I have gotten a lot closer and clearer in out communication once we defined our relationship (amazing what security in a relationship will do), so I don’t think this same scenario will repeat  itself down the line w/ marriage.  I am kind of a commitmentphobe, but once I am in, I tend to be all in.

        Hope that answers your questions!

        1. ScottH

          “This guy was perfectly kind and pleasant after the first dates (and even interesting, funny, and smart), but there are a million of those guys out there.

          Huh???  How come there hasn’t been a barrage of women disputing this line?

          I’d love to hear some of the great dates he planned.  I could use some good ideas.

        2. Karmic Equation

          ScottH,

          She’s 27.

          I think that’s why there’s no dispute.

          Attractive “…perfectly kind and pleasant after the first dates (and even interesting, funny, and smart)” men do seem to dwindle for some (maybe most) women when dating after 40, though…cuz the attractive ones we really want are going after the 30-somethings.

        3. Nissa

          Speaking only for myself, a lot of the men that are interested in me are not attractive to me. Some of them may have just not presented well, in the same way that meeting a woman at the gym when she’s sweaty and dressed in sweatpants might not knock you off your feet, but that same woman who’s had time to prepare for a date might make you go ‘ooh-la-la’. However, most of the time even if they guy is pleasant and smart, if the thought of kissing him makes me want to cringe, it’s never going to happen.

        4. SparklingEmerald

          Hi Kelly – Thanks for letting me interrogate you.  I’ve been trying to wean myself off of this blog, since I am now engaged, but I do find human nature fascinating, and this blog gives us a front row seat to that show, with audience participation.   Your story makes more sense to me now.

           

  9. 9
    Kelly

    OP here, I think my first comment did not go through, which was to give the end of the story. Basically, my now-boyfriend brought up the conversation about a week after I submitted the letter to Evan, and asked me to be his girlfriend. He said that he waited so long to broach the topic again because I had been so skittish when he brought it up initially, and he didn’t want to pressure me. So now we are happily committed, and he is wonderful!

      1. 9.1.1
        Kelly

        interestingly, my gut reaction when he brought up commitment the second time was still to panic, but because I’d put my actual feelings down in writing I was able to override that instinct. Whew!

    1. 9.2
      Elly Klein

      I hate being right about these things… 😉 Nice one, Kelly. Congrats!

    2. 9.3
      GoWiththeFlow

      Kelly,

      Thanks for the update!  I just love instant blog gratification 😉

      Hope all works out for you and your man.

  10. 10
    Karl S

    This OP’s letter is almost an exact replica of how my current relationship started.

    I wasn’t interested in anything serious and we had sex early, but I liked the time I spent with her and planned lots of dates. I was still seeing other people, but she was the one I was putting most of my effort into and for all appearances it was essentially like normal courting . Gradually a lot of my other dates fell away and only she was left but I was still really hesitant to commit to anything (I had some internal issues to resolve I guess).

    She brought up the conversation and gave me time, but also set her boundaries and communicated her needs. It wasn’t a you must decide NOW kind of conversation. Eventually, we agreed to take a week’s break to give each other space to think. That was the time she gave me to work my s*** out. At the end of that I had deleted tinder and jumped over the line into being a boyfriend. I admit some of that result is circumstance and things might have been different if another amazing girl had come along, but she didn’t.

    So like Adrian, I don’t believe it is clear cut. If the guy is acting very much like a boyfriend, chances are he can still become one. The OP can totally bring up the conversation to check in given the passage of time and it’s not needy to admit your feelings have evolved.

    1. 10.1
      Emily, the original

      Karl S,

      I admit some of that result is circumstance and things might have been different if another amazing girl had come along, but she didn’t.

      So is dating your current girlfriend a compromise? I don’t mean that in a negative or sarcastic way, but I have been thinking a lot lately about the things that are necessary for a relationship and how much you can reasonably expect each to be present. You can’t have everything.

      For example, what’s non-negotiable is that the other person wants a relationship, is willing to commit and will put in the time and effort to make things work. Getting someone to commit doesn’t exactly land in your lap. Commitment is not easy to find.

      But what about the other things — Do I like this person as a person? Do I respect him? Do I trust him? Do I want to go to bed with him? Nobody gets a 10 out of 10 in all these areas.

       

       

  11. 11
    SparklingEmerald

    I haven’t read all the comments, (just skimmed them)  but this letter seems so very fishy.

    I find it very hard to believe that a 27 year old woman who wants “to be in a relationship that makes me feel safe, loved, and confident”  would  be “very happy to confirm the ‘just casual’ thing.”

    Some of my highly biased guesses are: (I could be wrong in this situation, as I said, these are just guesses)

    This is a case of retro-active “sour grapes”.  No body likes to admit that they are way more into someone, than that other person is into them.  Of course, the OP is asking advice on how she can make him want to be her boyfriend, so she really has to admit that she likes him, but she’s trying to minimize it by claiming to have not initially really liked him.

     

    Or. . . . She’s not really into him, but her ego is bruised, that he’s not into her either.

     

    Or . . . She’s become such an expert a pretending to be “cool” with casual sex, that she’s convinced HERSELF that’s she’s really  OK with it, so her default mode is to treat every guy like a booty call who means nothing to her

    Or . . . and this is the least likely scenario, but hoaxes and false flag operations are very common on the internet, and maybe some male red-piller wrote this, to push the more often than not, false narrative, that women only want men who don’t want them, no matter what the woman says or thinks she wants.

    She also started off her letter saying his words and actions don’t match, but I think her whole letter is one big bundle of contradictions.  I think anyone, male or female has to be VERY CLEAR to themselves about what they want.  If you want marriage, ADMIT that, at least to yourself.  (no need to advertise it to the whole world, but at least be clear in your own mind)  If you want a committed, boyfriend/girlfriend thing, ADMIT that.  If you tell yourself that you’ll just “chill” or “go with the flow”, then guess what, the other person will direct the flow, and you won’t like the direction it’s going in, but you can’t complain because you wouldn’t admit or act upon what YOU really wanted.

    Once you are clear in your own mine about what YOU want, only date men who’s wants align with yours.  Don’t wuss out and suddenly be OK with “casual” when you made up your mind you want serious.  (I had a GF do that, cried to me how she wanted something serious, then got involved with someone who CLEARLY told her it was casual, made a big show of being the “cool girl”, then later started crying about how he wouldn’t commit)

    Make sure YOUR actions align with what YOU want, and you won’t end up with a guy who’s actions don’t align with yours. (unless he downright lies)  And you won’t have to DO ANYTHING to make him want to be your boyfriend.  Men do what THEY want to do, and if he wants you to be his girl, he will let you know in no uncertain terms.

    Either way, this letter just threw a big hunk of red meat to the man-o-sphere.  Something to point at and say “See ?  She didn’t like him until he told he wanted to be casual, now she really wants him, nyah, nyah, nyah. See how flakey women are ?  etc.”

     

  12. 12
    Roxanne

    Good advice Evan. I know me personally I am not good at doing the sex with no commitment thing. My issue is entering into relationships too quickly. I end up agreeing to him being my boyfriend simply cause he likes me and I like him too smh instead of agreeing to him being my boyfriend when he acts the way a boyfriend should.

  13. 13
    LBC

    I would not bring up “The Talk” to this guy.  I’d just become less available.  I wouldn’t let him have 3 nights of mine per week after the first “you’re just a casual thing to me.”  If he cares, he’ll be the one wondering why you’re no longer available whenever he calls, and he’ll ask you to be his girlfriend.  If he asks why you’re not available anymore, you just say, “You said you wanted a casual relationship, so I’m just respecting your wishes.”  Then let him figure it out.

    1. 13.1
      Karmic Equation

      You read between the lines and read them wrong, LBC.

      Read all the comments, then Kelly, the OPs comments.

      Context is everything. Everybody assumed that the guy brought up the “Let’s stay casual”. But Kelly refuted it. It was she who wanted it to remain that way.

      Reading between the lines, her now bf wanted to have the relationship talk 3 weeks in, but OP was “freaked out” by that.

      Not all men are players. Some men actually can read body language, have patience, and understand deferred gratification. Her bf is a keeper in my book.

  14. 14
    Angie

    I have some sympathy for Kelly as I just broke off a relationship that went very much along those lines, except mine was more infrequent with regard to how often we saw each other.  2 – 3 x a week?? Is he kidding???  Who in the world would ever experience that as “casual” ?!?

    She has all the sympathy in the world from this gal.  That’s a mind fuck, if I ever saw one.  He brought in the ‘lets be casual’ for a reason, yes… that was a real oddity to the story.  But, let’s face it… when someone acts like your boyfriend, you kind of get attached.  We’re human.  Not made out of wood.  Despite whatever disclaimer he wanted to slap on this relationship, he is acting contrary to what he set up.

    Why?  My hunch is this is a big time commitment phobe / avoidant attachment guy who always needs an exit to function.  The disclaimer is his escape hatch.  Its probably what allowed him to get as close as he did.

    I learned this lesson the hard way.  I could not understand why a guy (my ex-guy) who said he just wanted to keep it light and breezy was investing in the relationship by revealing all sorts of stuff, being vulnerable, affectionate, in contact, interested and concerned about my well being.  It didn’t compute.  So, I noted this but kept going out with others.  He began (around month 3) to do the ‘hot/cold’ thing and still I didn’t get it.  I’d never been with a person like this before.  The good news is that he knew what was going on and could talk about his absolute panic when things got close… but the bad news is that I was already very much attached by the time I realized what I’d gotten myself into.  I don’t blame myself for slipping down the slope and I don’t blame Kelly… I was (as she) still dating other people when it finally dawned on me how attached I had become and then it was too late and I had to dig my way out.

    Yes, his disclaimer early on should have been a big red flag.  But, its awfully hard to know what to believe when his behavior is communicating a different message.  That was my experience, too.

    Hopefully she can have the conversation and get the clarity she needs.

     

    1. 14.1
      ScottH

      Angie- if you don’t mind me asking, how did your relationship with the CP end?  I had two of those and the 2nd one is still haunting me and it’s been a long time.  The mixed messages were unbelievable and the sudden end was mind blowing.

      1. 14.1.1
        Angie

        Aw, sorry to hear you are haunted, ScottH.

        I don’t mind sharing… but bear in mind we’re only talking a few weeks and the relationship was nearly a year long.

        After the 4th hot/cold cycle (there were a few and they were very subtle at first), he went super ‘cold’ and essentially went on radio silence for days on end.  Knowing his pattern, and knowing we’d discussed his panic before, I let it ride believing he’d right himself and we’d get back to where we were.  We didn’t 🙁  The more I’d point out what was happening, the more he’d put me off and come up with many reasons why he couldn’t see me or why he was out of touch.

        I finally had to force the break up or move forward together conversation.  The good news is that he understood exactly why I was unhappy and owned it.  He asked if we could be friends and I said not now.  He even went as far to admit that letting go was just as hard as getting close.  Knowing this, I definitely believe that no contact is best for now.

        I was just thinking today that I believe he did me a favor in that the end wasn’t sudden… more like a slow painful death.  So, the withdrawal is lessened.  From what I read, CP’s / avoidant attachment individuals intentionally do that kind of slow fade so that it is easier to exit for them.  Ended up being easier for me too.

        Best of luck and again, sorry you’re going through it.

         

         

        1. ScottH

          Thanks Angie

          She gave me lots of signs that she was a CP but I foolishly chose to pay attention to the positives.  She was on the rebound from her previous guy  who broke her heart cheating on her.  In retrospect, it’s very clear.  She’s the one who ended the relationship but at the time, I thought we were all clear.  She kept telling me how much she valued me and us, told me that she kept telling her family how happy I made her and that they were looking forward to meeting me (this was around 4 months).  It seemed so good and then she ended it with the craziest lame excuses and she tried to end it over text message.

          Anyway, onward to healthiness and finding a healthy person.  Thanks for sharing.

    1. 15.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Listen, you 1950’s era troll: unless you’re a virgin yourself, shut the fuck up about what women should do with their bodies. It’s the height of hypocrisy to tell someone else what to do and not practice it yourself.

    2. 15.2
      N

      If you are okay with not sleeping with your girlfriend for 2-3 years maybe more until she becomes your wife, then yes, I will entertain the idea to not sleep with my boyfriend.

      And what if, you find out you aren’t compatible with your wife in the sack. Or worse, she likes to have sex once a year on your birthday, throw in Thanksgiving holiday? Enjoy the outdoors! 🙂

       

  15. 16
    Pia

    People are complicated and crazy. We always assume things and believe it to be true. And suffer as a result of our stupid imaginations. Why is it so difficult to ask?? When in doubt just ask!!! Screw the 30 days or 90 days rules people have defined and just ask. If hes yours, keep him. If hes not then dump him. You don’t owe anyone an explaination. Just kick his brown/black/white ass to the curb if he clearly shows that he is using you. The string is a bad place to be my dear. Nobody has to take shit from another if they don’t want to. Everybody has the freedom of choice to define and redefine what they want out of life and relationships.

  16. 17
    Kim

    Evan what you said is not slut shaming at all. You are so right. Girls if the guy has not said he wants you and only YOU don’t bloody sleep with him. If you sleep with him before that time what effort is there on his part to keep you? None. If he runs away because he doesn’t want to put in the effort in other ways he’s not worth your time anyway.

  17. 18
    Andrew

    Both 27, yup, people seem to date and have relationships in their 20s more than any other decade in their life

  18. 19
    Loy

    Excellent answer., Evan. If a man I am dating tells me he only wants something casual, I would cut him loose so quickly, he wouldnt know what hit him. I have never been a woman who engage in casual relationships/casual sex.  If I am going to be intimate with you, in order for me to find a life partner, it cannot be casual.  In these times, when it is so challenging to find the right man, casual relationships are a waste of time for me.

  19. 20
    DinaStrange

    “This is really fucking simple:
    Stop sleeping with men who aren’t your boyfriends.” – EMK
    Standing ovation follows.

  20. 21
    Lisa

    So here’s the thing, in today’s dating world if you don’t sleep with a guy by the third date you will not get a fourth one.  Men have tons of choices with online dating these days and plenty of other quality women that will sleep with him on the third date with a swipe of a finger.  No man is going to committ by date three nor will most women so really what do you do as a woman?  You often say men look for sex and find love.  I totally get that but if they don’t have the sex how do they get to the love?  Men sleep with you first then decide on commitment and in the past they were willing to wait longer because well any respectable gir would make him wait except now they don’t.  So really if you practice this rule you as a woman will be left in the dust.

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