How Do I Let Men Know I’m Not Out of Their League?

Hi Evan, I just turned 37. I am very attractive and smart and down-to-earth. I love helping people and have the biggest heart. I am a positive person and smile a lot and I can’t seem to find the right guy AT ALL. I have first dates then second dates, then the guy sees my classic Jaguar and my luxury apartment and he thinks that I am out of his league. I was told that a couple of times.

I met a handsome professor and he was a good person with a great heart but he continued to ask me over and over why I was going out with him when I could have any man that I want. I am not arrogant and sometimes try to play down my looks and the Jag. Men will say “Ooh, nice car” and I’ll say “Oh, it’s old.” Are men thinking that I am too expensive? Do they think I’m out of their league? I don’t have a league – I just want to meet a nice guy! Help… Niki

Niki,

Let’s flip this over, shall we?

Good looking guy with a big heart and a fat wallet drives a Ferrari. (It’s his second car – the Jag is in the shop).

The only men you can intimidate are the WRONG men.

He goes out on a first date with you. You look at him and swoon, before asking the very serious question: “I don’t get it. Why are you single? You could have anyone.”

He says, earnestly, with a sad smile, “I just haven’t met the right girl.”

You reply, “I get that, but how can I possibly trust you? You’re 37. You’ve probably been with a hundred women. And from everything I’ve experienced, guys like you aren’t solid relationship bets. You’re a lifetime bachelor with looks and money. You’re an alpha male with testosterone and ego. My dating coach told me to run from guys like you and stick with nice guys who want commitment.”

He says, “I am a nice guy – who just happens to be successful. I am very much looking for a wife and family. You can’t judge a book by its cover.”

I don’t know about you, Niki, but I’m sold.

And any guy who chooses to engage you beyond your looks and car will be sold on you as well.

As I’ve said repeatedly, the only men you can intimidate are the WRONG men.

A guy who feels the need to run away because he can’t handle your beauty, success or kindheartedness is nothing but an unfortunate and pathetic little man.

Good riddance to men who are afraid of Ferraris or perfect bodies or PhDs.

They don’t even count in my world.

If you are as great as you say you are, you should have no shortage of quality suitors.

I guess the only question I could ask you is the same question I’d ask of any man who perpetually finds that women are “intimidated” by him: How come you’re letting people get intimidated by you? Why aren’t they seeing your friendly, open, warm, vulnerable side?

If you were a comedian, at a certain point, you can’t keep insisting that you’re funny but “nobody gets the joke”.

As a single person, at a certain point, you can’t keep insisting that “all men” are intimidated by you, no more than a woman who suggests that all men are liars, players, losers or perverts.

It’s easy for you to sit back and say, “I’m great, but no one can handle me.”

It’s harder – and more important – for you to look in the mirror and figure out why.

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Comments:

  1. 61
    Helen

    Karl R wrote: “there’s an article by a woman who lost 40 pounds … and discovered that she was now a smaller woman with all the same problems and insecurities that she had before losing the weight.”
    That shouldn’t come as a surprise. You may not notice as a man, but women are constantly bombarded by messages from society that what we are is never enough. “Be this.” “Do that.” “Don’t be this.” “Don’t do that.” I’m not blaming men for this; both genders participate in bombing women with messages about how we should improve. For every message that men want women to be beautiful (consider Stacey’s comments in another thread about how she could only get a man of her “caliber” after undergoing 4 elective surgeries and training for several marathons a year!), there’s a counteracting message that we should just “look natural” (but it seems that there are very specific ideas about what that entails). Some messages urge us to be domestic; others to be career go-getters. A few years ago, two studies came out within a week of each other – one saying that men went for women with higher waist-to-hip ratios because they were smarter and would bear smarter children; and the other saying that men didn’t like smarter women in a survey study.
    This is all ridiculous.
    What I wish for all women is that we could tune out these awful media and take some time to discover what we really love as HUMANS (not necessarily as women). Then gather up the courage to pursue those things. That way we will be guaranteed a portion of happiness regardless of whether we’re appropriately enticing to anyone else.

  2. 62
    KTR

    I’d say men don’t notice or don’t care about nails, straightened or manufactured looking hair, or how trendy/expensive clothing is or how many brand labels are on someone, or LOTS of make up. But they do appreciate a flattering and healthy feminine look.

    This REALLY doesn’t need to cost a lot. Good and effective maintenance isn’t high maintenance.

    Think European chic.  Natural make-up – basically just enough products so your skin is good and your eyes OR lips are emphasised. Flattering hairstyle (which does NOT have to be overdone, just healthy looking and fits your face – I cut my own and I do fine, even though I tend to date men in relatively conservative professions who move in similar circles. Low maintenance doesn’t equals hippy).

    Clothing – nothing too trendy or “weird” looking, unless you’re trying to appeal to a particular subculture. I find quality men seem to like classic, figure flattering styles over anything too outlandish that’s straight from the pages of a fashion mag.

    Good taste and a sense of “this flatters ME” is worth a lot more than just picking out the most expensive outfit in the store. Might not be a good idea to go on first dates in a fleece and jeans, but this doesn’t mean you have to spend thousands on a brand new outfit and a salon session. I take care of my appearance on a day to day level, and own and wear clothes that I like the look of myself in (which you SHOULD be doing anyway even if you aren’t actively dating – have some pride ;-)) so I don’t really need any special extra expenditure for dates. 

    (Personally, I’ve found well fitting jeans and a plain top, or a dress that isn’t too “clubwear” or too “granny/vintage” style goes down VERY well).

    Keep your weight in check – you don’t need to pay X amount for a gym, just eat less and walk and run. Get some yoga practices off the Internet to improve your posture. Drink water and eat oily fish for your skin (no smoking or excess drinking) and get early nights 4-5 days a week.

    Cost = zero (ish). Impact on men attracted = excellent.

    I think there is an in between step in between “I NEED TO SPEND THOUSANDS ON COSMETIC SURGERY AND DESIGNER CLOTHES” and “I’M NOT GOING TO PAY ANY ATTENTION TO MY APPEARANCE AND RANT AT MEN FOR BEING SHALLOW”. It’s not so hard to find.

  3. 63
    Two of Us Dating Service

    I read the comments and I think Evan is more accurate in his assessment of the situation and what needs to be done.  It’s not about leaving the Jag at home or changing things about yourself so men become “less intimidated”.  If you have to pretend you’re someone different then you are to satisfy the person you’re with you’re not with the right person.  I can only use myself as an example.  My wife is 16 years younger than me, is extremely attractive and very successful.  When we first met I thought it was very exciting that wherever we went all eyes would be on her.  I loved the fact that all the men flirted with her and wanted to be with her.  Her attractiveness and power were attributes that made me feel good about myself rather than threatened.  Yes, she could have any man she wanted, especially younger and more successful ones than me.  She know it and I love the fact that it was me she chose to spend her life with.  But she also never did anything to create any doubt or insecurity within me.  So as where Evan is on target with his “wrong men” assessment, he also is right one with his advice of analyzing any behavior on your part that might be creating any issues.

  4. 64
    helene

    As a lady doctor, I am constantly taken aback by the reactions of men on dates when they ask me what I do. I would expect at the very least a polite comment like “That must be interesting” but instead I often get a brief silence followed by a muttered “Oh.” Up till that point (and it is surprising how far you can get through a date before a man bothers to ask you about your job) things have been fun and chatty, then I just get this “Oh.” According to some sources of dating advice, men are drawn to women in the caring professions, but it seems doctors don’t count! I always end up feeling things would have gone better if I’d said I was a nurse. Or preferably a children’s nursery nurse. The pojnt i’m making is its not the trappings of success that put men off (until they discover what I do, they seem fine with my clothes, shoes and nice haircut) – its the success ITSELF that they don’t like. And there’s not a lot you can do about THAT.

    Interestingly enough, I met a guy on holiday in Greece last week who works on a farm. Now that we’re home, he is eagerly trying to organise to come and visit me to continue the relationship, even though he lives hundreds of miles away. He doesn’t seem fazed at all by my job, which is so refreshing. I can’t say I’m holing out a great deal of hope that what started out as a holiday hook-up will blossom into anything, but hey! at least I dodn’t get the “Oh.” 

  5. 65
    Karl R

    Helen said: (#62)
    “women are constantly bombarded by messages from society that what we are is never enough.”

    Is your education “enough”? Have you learned everything you’ll ever need to know? Have you learned everything worth knowing? Or is this something that you’ll strive for over a lifetime? Is this something where the journey is important, because the destination is unreachable.

    Are you good “enough”? Are you as ethical / moral / just / kind / compassionate as you ought to be? As you’re ever going to become? Or is this something that you’ll strive for over a lifetime?

    I don’t know about you, but I’ve been getting messages from my parents, my teachers, my church, great literature, my friends and socieity about those two topics from before the time I could understand the meaning of the words. Somehow, I’ve managed to lead a happy, healthy, balanced life while still pursuing those unattainable goals.

    I’ve noticed that women can manage this concept when it comes to the important things. Why should it be unmanageable when it’s a more superficial subject?

    KTR, (#63)
    I think you’ve nailed it.

  6. 66
    Peter

    Well, I’m 60.  I’m physically fit, tall by local standards and have my own business which is doing OK but not making what I might have been making.  She is 36, good looking, stylishly dressed with her own business and probably a higher net worth than me.  No way would I have chased her.  We happened to be thrown together.  However, I am not altogether sure that she is out of my league intellectually, emotionally or spiritually.  Once you are through the “Wow factor” barrier these matter more.  After 6 weeks together it’s not looks (or age) that you see most in another person.  They matter but not so much.  It’s character.  How do you signal your character?  How do you signal your character to people you want to attract?  How do you define the people you want to attract?  Are they likely to be interested in your signals?  Selfish jerk is a good signal for a man to give a woman.  It is not a good signal for a woman to give a man.

  7. 67
    Catherine

    Goldie 59 I am glad to see someone can tell I was at 52 (Catherine) pulling peoples leg.

  8. 68
    Catherine

    hello MIA 54

    “”Catherine, your post cracked me up. I am tall, thin, have long straight hair, don’t have a big nose, and wear feminine clothes, yet I can’t get a guy to have more than a superficial interest in me. And I know dumpy girls with masculine clothes and big noses who find love just fine. I’m doing something wrong , and you’re doing something wrong – in terms of being strategic about how we find men who would care about us – but looks are not it, I suspect.””

    Mia I have plenty of platonic males friends who tell me I am funny ,smart and charming  and a woman they could take home to meet their mother,   but as one of my male friends said “”IF i look at a woman and don’t think I want to do her, I won’t ask her out”. First appearances are everything.

  9. 69
    Christine

    I read that same Marie Claire story.  I used to be thin back in my 20s (size 0).  Once I got into my 30s I suddenly gained a ton of weight.  However, I didn’t have a perfect life back when I was thin, and didn’t suddenly have a terrible one when I got bigger.  There are times when I wish I could go back to my size 0 days.  However, then I realize that my quality of life has been essentially the same at all sizes, with the same sets of triumphs and problems.  I don’t know that being a waif again would miraculously make life perfect, when it didn’t before. 
    KTR, I think you hit the nail on the head to strike a happy medium between being slovenly and obsessive about appearance.  I do what I can with cosmetics and clothes, but am always surprised when I get men who find that “high maintenance”.

  10. 70
    JB

    @Helene 65

    Yep men ARE drawn to women in caring professions I’ve dated nurses as well as a nurse practioner or 2. While I’ve never even met an actual MD to get the chance to say anything. I know that she would probably ask me “what do you do” first just like women online qualify men every day with this question. Then when I tell them oddly enough she would probably say what a lot of women say to me online after the 3rd email “Oh, that sounds interesting” and I never hear from them again. There are some women that put right in their profile that they’re a “doctor” and for the most part I don’t email them because I’m pretty sure I’M not what she’s looking for. Most (not all) female MD’s aren’t going to be interested in average men that don’t have a high status/high value job. They can only be attracted to their equal or above whatever that means to them. Attorney, Financial Advisor, _______ fill in the blank with any highly educated job title etc…… “Farm hand” isn’t going to make it in my neighborhood for even a secretary…..LOL

  11. 71
    chris

    Double standard. Many men have no problem flaunting their successes. It’s expected and they do it because they think it makes them more attractive and it’s a sign of their worth. I’ve had dates apologize for driving their beater when their nice car was in the shop. Imagine if I did that. I would be then “flaunting”. Flaunting your well-deserved successes is ok for men, but not for women?
    Women are attracted to “successful” men, but successful women are intimidating to men? I find no reason for men or women to hide their successes because it is just a part of who they are. Successful women are no less caring, nurturing, fun or feminine then women who don’t make a lot of money. And why the heck does it even matter? Rich, poor, black, white, gay, straight…who cares? It’s the qualities that we want in a partner that matter. It doesn’t make them a better partner, but it shouldn’t exclude a man or woman from being considered nor should it be a barrier to getting to know each other further. We do ourselves a disservice by even noticing what car or career a date has. I’ve dated both highly successful men and unemployed men and those factors had nothing to do with whether they were a good match for me or not.
    Men should be able to look at women like they look at their successful male friends and say to women, “dude (dudedess), great car!”

  12. 72
    helene

    @JB

    Thanks for your comments – it is interesting to hear that “average guys” wouldn’t bother pursuing a female MD as they’d assume she would be looking for an attorney etc… when as has frequently been pointed out by Evan and others, the “attorneys etc…” of my age (47) are all looking for hot young 30 year olds. This leaves the likes of me with….what??! The retired gentlemen, apparently.
    The farm guy, actually, is quite a confident, masculine type, which is positive – also well educated, having gone to a private school – I went to an ordinary school myself. He has now gone ahead and booked a flight (after consulting with me) to visit me in my city in a couple of weeks time, which according to Evan’s “pay attention how quickly they follow up” philosophy is a good sign – so I’m trying to be open to this (rather unusual) possibility as it IS very nice to be pursued by a man who is NOT intimidated by me or my profession – as well as being very hot in bed (am I allowed to say that on the blog??!)

  13. 73
    Ruby

    Karl R #66
     
    “Is your education “enough”? Have you learned everything you’ll ever need to know? Have you learned everything worth knowing? Or is this something that you’ll strive for over a lifetime? Is this something where the journey is important, because the destination is unreachable.
    Are you good “enough”? Are you as ethical / moral / just / kind / compassionate as you ought to be? As you’re ever going to become? Or is this something that you’ll strive for over a lifetime?”
     
    Well, women get THESE messages also, on top of the messages that reinforce the fact that they are not thin enough, not pretty enough, too old, etc. It’s mostly women doing the extreme dieting, getting the plastic surgery, buying cosmetics, and so on. The above examples aren’t negative things to strive for, either, as they have a positive effect and are reasonable goals. But messages that tell women that they need to measure up to an unattainable ideal of feminine beauty negatively affect a woman’s self-esteem. Men don’t get the same messages about their physical appearance, and they are not held to the same unrealistic standard.

  14. 74
    Mia

    Catherine — no man will go out with a girl he doesn’t want to do. But, how would you feel if you were like me and some of my friends, a size 2, feminine looking, young, and often told you’re gorgeous, but …. Men have a hard time seeing you as more than the exotic flavor of the week ? Being half white and half Asian and never really sure if you’re with a guy who has an exotic fetish when really he’s gonna end up with the plain, generic w hite girl next door like so many men do? one of my closest friends is drop dead gorgeous, 27, tan and long haired and she gets played right and left. I can’t tell you how many times we’ve sat at the bar bemoaning why we keep getting played while so many frumpy girls are out having a ball. I have no sympathy for unattractive  women, bc they get played a lot less and seem to find love more easily bc the 1 or 2 men who like them, do so for their personalities.

  15. 75
    That East Asian Man

    Hi, Nikki.

    You’re smart enough to figure this one out for yourself.

    As for the handsome professor with the great heart, here’s some advice to him from that notable expert on Internet dating, the late actor-comedian Jackie Gleason (according to the Thought For Today in the Torrance Daily Breeze newspaper):   “If you have it and you know you have it, then you have it.  If you have it and don’t know you have it, you don’t have it.  If you don’t have it but you think you have it, then you have it.”
      

  16. 76
    Christine

    Chris72, well said–I don’t get where this idea comes from, that well compensated professional women must somehow be less nurturing, feminine and fun than anyone else. 

    Mia74–well, actually I think average and/or homely women get “played” about as often as the “hot” ones, at least from what I’ve seen.  I have also been through that experience more than I can count, but am an average female.  I’m a plus sized 4, 33 year old Asian woman–somewhere in between gorgeous and hideous on the attractiveness scale.  For those types of guys an Asian woman doesn’t necessarily have to be drop dead gorgeous for him to see her as a “fetish” or “exotic” flavor of the week–just Asian!  I’m not sure the less-beautiful women of the world have some immunity against getting “played”.  At the same time, they also are disadvantaged in not getting the amount of attention as their more beautiful counterparts.  The hot young 20-somethings will get opportunities I can only dream of.  Sorry but I have a hard time crying for young gorgeous women! 

    Helene, I know what you mean.  I have found a lot of doctors and lawyers have this attitude of entitlement, where they want hot young things.  A lot of times they’ve rejected me for younger women (and the sad thing is, I’m not even THAT old, but they see me as an old crone as they chase the 20-somethings).  I am actually getting fed up with them and wouldn’t mind a so-called “average” guy if he treats me right.  Hey, does “farm guy” have a brother? :-)  

  17. 77
    Catherine

    HI Mia (75), I think 1/2 asian, 1/2 caucasian people are really cute:). I am sure we have all been played whether we are 100% caucasian or eurasian. All i can say is, ( and I dare say I would differ with Evan on this point), I think women have sex with guys way too early. if women had a 6 months dating before sex policy it would weed out a lot of players. If you are putting out Mia, how long do you date the guys before you have sex with them?

    I dated a guy , Valentine”s Day was approaching and I asked what we were doing for the occasion. He stated we weren’t doing anything      because “”that would mean something” but in the next breath he was asking when we were going to have sex!! Guess who didn’t get any sex?. You need to know where you stand with a guy BEFORE you have sex with them, if you don’t want to get played.

  18. 78
    helene

    Christine @77

    Ha Ha! Alas, ho only has a sister…. but hey, we older gls need to be flexible…  

  19. 79
    Joe

    Karl R said (#60):

    I don’t know if you get Marie Claire (my fiancée does). This month there’s an article by a woman who lost 40 pounds … and discovered that she was now a smaller woman with all the same problems and insecurities that she had before losing the weight.

    Didn’t Evan have a blog post a couple of years ago where a woman wrote in after having lost a considerable amount of weight, with angst about the vastly higher amount of attention she was now getting from men?  She appreciated the attention she was getting as a thin girl, but resented the same guys for not giving her that attention as a fat girl.

  20. 80
    Christine

    helene@79, darn!  But hey, can you blame a girl for trying? :-) I am learning to loosen up the education and professional “requirements” a bit…I’d be happy with just “smart enough” (somewhere between Einstein and Beavis & Butthead). Well, I console myself with the fact that the few gorgeous, tall professional men I’ve dated turned out to be lousy in bed and maybe I’m not missing out on much by not getting more of them (can I say that on here? Hey, after they let in your little gem about how “farm guy” is in the sack, maybe I can make a comment like that too, haha).

  21. 81
    Goldie

    @ Joe #80 – the way I see it, this woman’s angst had nothing to do with her insecurities, and everything to do with her new, first-hand experience at how shallow most people are. She’s still the same person, yet the men who wouldn’t talk to her before, want to date her now. This probably also makes her question their motives — how does she know they want her for the person she is, and not as “exotic flavor of the week” (Mia #75), “my best shot at banging a hot chick” (old friend of mine… true story) or some other kind of status symbol? She probably feels kind of like a man would feel if he came into a lot of money and noticed that, all of a sudden, every woman is in love with him… he’s probably wonder if they want him or his cash.
     
    @ Karl #66, pushing for self-improvement, growth, and being all you can be is awesome, but somehow I think this isn’t what Helen meant by women being told they’re never enough. I’d rephrase it and say we’re damned if we do, damned if we don’t. Just looking at the last few blog posts — if we don’t take care of our looks, men aren’t interested. If we do take care of our looks, the same men label us princesses and high-maintenance, and again are not interested. If we’re not investing in our career, we’re not applying ourselves. if we’re investing in our career, we’re men with vaginas (ick). The list goes on. No matter what a woman does, society finds away to make her feel guilty for it. My answer to this, of course, is — who cares what society thinks? screw society. But I’m old and jaded, and feel like I’ve already accomplished enough on all fronts. For young women in their 20s, this pressure from society/public opinion can be too much.

  22. 82
    Joe

    Goldie:

    1) The way she knows whether or not a guy wants her for the person she is, is by getting to know the person he is.

    2) I think you’re missing some of Karl’s point.  Sure, a guy wants a woman to take care of her looks, but as he says, she’s high-maintenance only if the guy is involved in the maintenance.  If the maintenance is invisible to him, he doesn’t care how long it takes her to get ready for dates (so long as she’s not chronically tardy because of it).

  23. 83
    Goldie

    @ Joe, I saw that point, I agree with that point, I’m not missing it because it’s irrelevant to what I was replying to (Karl’s #66 and Helen’s #62). Basically I agree with what Helen is saying in #62.

  24. 84
    hunter

    A woman with a jag and her date ran away??…what a wuss….

  25. 85
    Karl R

    Ruby said: (#74)
    “Men […] are not held to the same unrealistic standard.”
    Goldie said: (#82)
    “I’d rephrase it and say we’re damned if we do, damned if we don’t.”

    Do you feel men are never held to an unreasonable standard? Men are never put into a “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” position by women?

    Perhaps you’ve forgotten this blog post. Many women are seeking a strong, self-sufficient, stoic man … who is also sensitive and discusses his feelings.

    A man can be stoic, or he can be sensitive & sharing, or he can be somewhere in the middle. But the man can’t be two opposite things at the same time.

    I don’t hear men complaining or getting frustrated over this. We don’t claim that it’s an impossible situation. We crack a few jokes about it, then continue being exactly who we are. I’m not going to try to change myself into being something that will appeal to all women (including those with completely opposite tastes). I am certainly not going to try to appeal to the women want two completely opposite traits in their boyfriend. (Those women can wise up or stay single.)

    Goldie said: (#82)
    “if we don’t take care of our looks, men aren’t interested. If we do take care of our looks, the same men label us princesses and high-maintenance, and again are not interested. If we’re not investing in our career, we’re not applying ourselves. if we’re investing in our career, we’re men with vaginas (ick).”

    I doubt it’s the same men who are expecting both. I prefer women who wear little/no makeup and simple hairstyles. Other men prefer women who wear full makeup and elaborate hairstyles. By doing one (instead of the other) you attract a different set of men.

    Seriously. If a man eliminates half the women because they don’t do enough with their appearance, and he eliminates the other half because they’re high maintenance, then he’s eliminated all of his dating prospects. That’s his problem, not yours.

    Similarly, I want a woman who is capable of supporting herself. My fiancée isn’t in a position where she’s likely to see promotions, and she hasn’t been getting significant raises. She takes an interest in doing her job well, and she’s content where she’s at. Her life isn’t consumed by her work. That’s what is important to me.

    Choose a middle ground which works for you. Then accept the reality that your choice has eliminated certain options.

    Goldie said: (#82)
    “No matter what a woman does, society finds away to make her feel guilty for it. My answer to this, of course, is — who cares what society thinks?”

    Society says that I should earn more.
    Society says that I should be better educated.
    Society says that I should be physically stronger.
    Society says that I should be better at fixing things.
    Society says that I should be a father.
    Society says that I should be more driven to get promotions.
    Society says that I should own nicer possessions.

    I stopped listening to society in my early 20s. (Right around the time society started telling me that I must be gay.) If someone doesn’t like messages they’re getting from society, the solution is blatantly obvious.

    Instead of taking the obvious solution, some people prefer to complain. They don’t accomplish much.

  26. 86
    m

    Yes, some men have taken one look at my salon styles and assumed I’m “high maintenance”. Yet if I just let myself go to be “low maintenance”, those same men wouldn’t find me attractive enough to get to know. Men want women to be beautiful, but how do they expect us to be that without the effort it takes to actually get there? I know very few women who can just roll out of bed looking terrific without some “maintenance” work (look at even those celebrities without makeup–even they aren’t naturally like that).”

    This.

  27. 87
    Helen

    Ruby, Goldie, Karl – I don’t think our viewpoints are that far apart (and probably mine are the same as Ruby’s and Goldie’s in this respect).

    We would probably all agree that we should focus on doing what makes us happy and staying in our natural character – if people find us attractive, great; if not, at least we’re still being and doing what we want to be and do.

    We would probably all agree that everyone is subject to expectations, male or female.

    It’s my own personal opinion that women face more expectations than men in society, and these are not necessarily imposed BY men, although some of them are (particularly as pertains to looks and sex). On the whole, I also believe that those expectations specific to women are not necessarily good for women, whereas the expectations of character, learning, etc. that are true of both sexes are at least somewhat good for individuals of both sexes.

    We can say all we want that we shouldn’t bow to expectations – I advocate that as well. But it is hard to do that, and sometimes we aren’t even conscious that we are shaping our lives around others’ expectations.

  28. 88
    Joe

    …and women want men to be tall.  So?

  29. 89
    Goldie

    @ Karl, yep this is exactly my approach :) Though, Helen is right, and it is hard to completely ignore the outside pressure.
     
    @ Joe, this has very little to do with men, women, and dating. Hope I don’t commit blasphemy by saying it on this blog, but there’s more to life than searching for a mate. The pressure to be a million conflicting things comes from a variety of sources — our children’s teacher saying behind our back “Well, what do you expect, of course Johnny would get bad grades — his mom works!”; a job recruiter asking us why we took time off work/refused to work crazy hours when our children were young; well-meaning friends and relatives; the list goes on and on… Sometimes people who express these opinions on what they think we should be, are in a position to directly affect our life. And I agree with Helen that this pressure is worse for women than it is for men, because it’s almost like, in this country, people still haven’t made up their mind on what they want a woman’s role to be — a woman’s place is at home! no, in the workplace! no, both! Only common denominator for most of them are, they all want to show a woman her place, whatever that might be. Sarahrahrah was right when she said on the other thread that it’s a fairly recent development, limited to some cultures but not the others. Vestiges of the Victorian past, if you will.

  30. 90
    Nicole

    I think #12 hit the nail on the head.  The men respond to how they feel when they are with you.  I just recently graduated from medical school – and am now working as a physician.  I am relatively young, fun-loving, silly, and don’t take myself all that seriously (and relatively easy on the eyes!) :)  I met a man the same age as myself (30) who works with computers.  I thought he was great!  If my work comes up, I do say that I am a doctor, but I am not even remotely arrogant or pompous in any way.  I always tell him that he fascinates ME because when my PC freezes I’m just at a loss…and maybe he can’t fix a person like I can…but he can sure fix my laptop.  He’s one of the first non-medical people I’ve dated…b/c my previous bf was in med school with me, so the intimidation factor wasn’t there.  But, I try SOOO hard to make this one relax around me, and I’m failing miserably.  My car is not nice, I’m not flashy by nature, but maybe I have some designer purses or shoes . I just think he wonders ‘why me’ and continues to wonder when I’ll upgrade.  It’s frustrating…but like you have all said…there is someone else out there that would not let this scare them away.

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