If Men Like Only Hot Women, Where Does That Leave an Average Woman Like Me?

If Men Only Kike Hot Women, Where Does That Leave an Average Woman Like Me?

Dear Evan,

Why do dating experts for men teach them how to get the hottest women possible? Unlike women, they are rarely told to date someone they might not find attractive at first because she might grow on him. As an average looking woman (I am fit, well-groomed and fashionable, but I know that I am not a bombshell. I don’t make people gag, but I don’t turn heads either.), I feel that no man is going to find me desirable because all men feel that they deserve and can get the hottest woman out there. Just where does that leave women like me? 

Tia-Maria

Dear Tia-Maria,

Thank you, thank you, thank you for asking this question. A few months ago, I promised to write a post about shallow men, and this note from you is the perfect excuse.

First, a story:

When I started writing Why You’re Still Single, back in early 2005, I was working with a different woman than my eventual partner, Linda Holmes. This original partner was a noted matchmaker who brought a certain credibility to my pet project – she’s experienced in her field, she’s telegenic, she knows plenty about single people, etc.

One of the first chapters I completed was called “The Beauty Myth Is Not a Myth.” It didn’t necessarily debunk Naomi Wolf’s seminal work, but it did establish one very important concept that women need to understand: Men are as shallow as advertised. And while women can beat their heads against a wall, wishing that this were not true, they’re fighting a real losing battle if they expect men to stop worshipping at the altar of beauty.

Like much of my advice, it can rub a woman the wrong way. But I wasn’t condoning the behavior, I was merely reporting it. This is what men do, whether we like it or not. Yet my writing partner felt so unnerved by my stance, that her version of the “Beauty Myth” chapter only served to contradict everything I had written.

She mentioned that she was in the business of connecting souls.

She stated that as men mature, they learn to appreciate inner beauty.

She encouraged women to hold out for the kind of guy who isn’t as focused on the outer packaging.

That’s when I fired her from the project.

I tell this story not to make myself look good (clearly), but because I refused to put out a book that gave bad advice. And make no mistake about it – telling women to hold out for men who don’t care about looks is BAD ADVICE. Why? Because men like this are as common as Halley’s Comet….

Here’s an excerpt from Why You’re Still Single:

“I am not suggesting that men are pure objects of lust with all the depth of a bathtub. Nor am I suggesting that men don’t have the ability to love and accept any physical imperfections. They can and they do.

Just not as much as women. At least in my experience as a dating coach where I have the unique privilege of being given access to some of my clients’ online dating accounts. And after years of doing this, I’m still flabbergasted that no matter how unattractive a man is – no matter how little hair is on his head, or how much on his back – he STILL has the same twenty-something supermodels on his favorites list as if he was Colin Farrell.

Yes, Shallow Hal lives – and I believe he lives in a majority of American men. Men who are 5s want women who are 10s. And women who are 5s are often left out in the cold, at least in L.A., where I live…

Men who are 5s want women who are 10s. And women who are 5s are often left out in the cold.

If anybody should be judged harshly, it’s men for refusing to let women age gracefully. Most men do not break out of gender roles and societal expectations. So while you may know a handful of men who don’t care about looks, they are rarities. They are the gold standard, the type that every woman should be striving to date. But if you’re under the illusion that they grow on trees, it’s time to wake up and smell the Kiehl’s anti-aging lotion. The number of guys who are “above” the whole looks thing may fill a classroom, but not a stadium, and definitely not a big enough portion of the male population to suggest any type of trend.

In a weak moment, I bet that even the most non-judgmental guy around would say that he wants a mind, soul, and body connection – but only if she takes care of her body.

So, Tia-Maria, why do dating experts tell men how to get the hottest women possible? …

Because that’s what men want. Plain and simple. Dating experts try to sell products by connecting with readers’ basest wishes. And for men, the holy grail is to be able to get the hot girl. What these men rarely consider is that the hot girl might also be emotionally bankrupt, unintelligent, flaky, humorless, and lack basic human empathy. These details don’t concern them. Men’s repeated refrain: “I can’t help what I’m attracted to.”

Who do we blame for this? Men, of course, but there’s more than enough responsibility to go around. After all, women buy into the Beauty Myth just as much as men do. Advertising and media saturation reinforce the image of perfect bodies and skin, and women spend thousands of dollars each year striving for an impossible standard. And to please whom? Men? Themselves? I’m not sure anyone can agree on this stuff.

And where does this realization leave you, Tia-Maria? I would say right back where you were before. Secure in who you are and who you’re not. Validated in your opinion that men are impossibly shallow. And rightfully concerned that you’re going to be overlooked.

Despite my shallow man diatribe, please bear in mind that there is a lid for every pot. Just look around. Most women don’t qualify as “hot” in the Maxim sense, and yet they still get married. The real struggle is in keeping a healthy perspective and a positive attitude until you find the right fit.

So don’t worry about what you can’t control (men); instead, take care of what you can control (yourself).

And trust that the right man will love you as you deserve to be loved.

 

For more commentary on shallow men, please read:

Where Are All The Emotionally Available, Mentally Healthy Men?

How Come Everyone I Want to Meet Online Isn’t Interested In Me?

Are Women More Likely Than Men to Require Chemistry To Go On A Second Date?

Online Daters Are Shallow! And Water Is Wet!

6
10

Join 5 Million Readers

And the thousands of women I've helped find true love. Sign up for weekly updates for help understanding men.

I hate spam as much as you do, therefore I will never sell, rent, or give away your email address.

Join our conversation (244 Comments).
Click Here To Leave Your Comment Below.

Comments:

  1. 61
    Tia-Maria

    I asked the original question and many of the responses — including Evan’s — didn’t really address the heart of my question. I do acknowledge that it’s probably my fault because there actually were lots of questions to focus on. What I really wanted to know was why are women who seek dating advice told to compromise on what they want and men really aren’t. Men who seek dating advice often want to date and bed really hot women. That’s what dating experts show them how to do — regardless of what they look like.

    So many of the replies have stressed how women want tall men or rich men or good looking men. Yes, that’s all true, BUT if a woman goes to a dating expert, she is told to forget all that — go for short men; go for men who have a passion, but perhaps not lots of money; go for an average looking guy who wil treat you well. (News flash — average looking guys, as a whole, don’t treat women any better than good looking guys. Good men, respectful men — average or hot — treat women well. Appearance has NOTHING to do with how people treat other people. ) Women are always told to compromise and men aren’t. Where is the dating expert who is going to show average women how to get a tall, rich, hot looking man who is going to treat her well?

    I want to address the people who felt that based on my question, I must be lacking in confidence. Please know that I am not lacking in confidence. In fact, I think true confidence is knowing what you are and what you are not. Whether people want to admit it or not, “confidence” that doesn’t have some external validation is not confidence, it’s delusion. Women who are 10′s are treated differently from women who are 5′s. Plain and simple. We all know people who think they are so hot, but really aren’t. Don’t we feel sorry for them? Don’t some of you — not me– even make fun of them? So, the fact that I said I am not a bombshell or knock out, does not mean that I lack confidence. I know what my best assets are and I work them to my advantage. Honesty and self awareness is confidence – -pretending or wanting to be something you are not is sad.

  2. 62
    gonzo

    Folks: life is not fair, I pretty much gave up this game years ago. I’m 5′ 6 3/4″ and am now 53 and care for an aging parent, which pretty much kills any chances I’ll have for the rest of my days.

    I know I’ll never wind up with a Jessica Simpson and have accepted the fact, albeit with a certain sadness, but hey, at least I have a job. It may not be a nice fact, but as the Buck Turgidson character said in the Peter Sellers movie “Dr. Strangelove”: “the truth is not always a pleasant thing.”

    This became evident when I was at a brunch one day with a married couple who were friends of mine. They were having me meet a ‘friend’ of theirs, an event I always dreaded. We got to the spot early. Every time a woman I found attractive walked in I’d whisper “Is that her?”

    …after a few women had entered the male of the couple asked: “What exactly are you expecting?” I looked around, saw a table with some cute women, nodded my head toward them and said ” Well, someone like one of them?”

    The guy glanced over, looked at them, then at me, then said something that pretty much destroyed any optimism I had: “I think you’re being unrealistic”. I haven’t seen them in years, literally.

    Years later, a female friend, who was married to another friend of mine, was out at a comedy club at which I was attending. We bumped into each other by accident. Chats began with her and her friends, all women, who were having a ‘girls night out’. 3 of them put their heads together and looked at me. I KNEW what was coming. To make a long story short they mentioned this ‘available’ friend of theirs. I looked around the group and my eyes settled on this cute little women who amongst them.

    “Her?” I inquired, expecting negative responses.

    One of the group glanced around me. She saw to whom I was referring then gave me this Evil Eye and said, scornfully, “It FIGURES, you like the skinny, pretty one with the big boobs”. (her words exactly)

    When you find out what your friends think of you, it can really be painful.

    Jena: use spellcheck.

  3. 63
    hunter

    to tia maria,

    I don’t think I can answer your question, either…..but I would continue to ask, other dating experts, or other people,…I am almost sure,…….. you will find someone that will answer your question, fully…

  4. 64
    hunter

    to a&v,

    I have heard good looking women say,(some in their late 50′s) that, they wouldn’t dance with an unattractive, man, much less, date him….

  5. 65
    cp

    I’ve noticed it is mostly men that say “women dont care about men’s looks as much”

    flat out wrong. I am sooo tired of this “men are visual creatures” (barf)

    Women are waaay more visual. Look around, men don’t even notice most of the stuff women notice (visually speaking). We notice every little detial (with our EYES).

    It is true that women seem to mature faster and learn to compromise or accept less than they know they are worth because maybe they just want to be in a relationship, and they would rather be secure than with some idiot that will eventually cheat on them to prove his man-hood to himself.

    I do get incredibly annoyed myself when really ugly and fat guys contact me via the internet.

    Women have a much better clue about what “league” they are in.

    Am I supposed to feel hopeful? I dont. I’m not worried about attracting men. I am afraid I will never truly like one cause now I think they are all stupid idiots that think we don’t care what they look like as long as they make money, no matter what they do for a living or what they think or feel.

    not that it matters…but fyi, most women I know, including me want to know what you do for a living because that is part of who you are…and what makes you interesting to talk to, and to see if there is anything BESIDES money, sex, or ego close to your heart.

    I’m so depressed…

  6. 66
    verbosity

    Interesting replies all. I am sorry much of what was said does not assuage Tia-Maria’s concerns. That said, I think we do have to look at certain things, perhaps some of them misconceptions, perhaps not…

    About men – We are not ‘wired’ to think a certain type of woman is hot, like a size zero blonde with 34c’s. If you look at history, the ‘hotties’ 300 years ago (or around them – shoot me if I’m off by a century or so) were Rubenesque, coming from the paintings of the same period depicting women who today would be called morbidly obese. Men are trained and socialized to think the girls with protruding pelvic bones, showing ribs, and fake boobs are ‘hot.’

    About women (disclaimer: these are my perceptions) – I think it’s fair to say women are equally as visual as men. However, I think it’s equally as fair to say they are far more willing to compromise on a man’s looks when he can provide them security (ie. – money). I also think that women are trained to compromise less, meaning they can get money and looks (let’s face it – they can. We have to chase them). Before I get howls of protest, there have been surveys on the matter (including what hunter said above) that indicate this. Also, one need only look at Match to see how many women seek men who make 2x (or more) what they make. So to say women do not look at wallet is inaccurate and disingenuous. I disagree with cp’s sentiment that men are stupid idiots who think women don’t care about looks, only money (my paraphrase). It sounds as though she’s frustrated.

    I’ve oversimplified the above somewhat, but I hope readers see where I am coming from. Brad Pitt can get most any woman because he’s good-looking, famous, AND rich. Angelina Jolie can get most any man because she’s hot. Period. Focusing only on looks and money leads to shallow, poor outcomes.

    Here’s what I think… both sexes often have unreasonable expectations for their mates and themselves, and do little to define the character traits they really want and need to be happy long term. It seems more important to define those personality characteristics that will make you happy outside of looks and money.

    So boys, listen to the women who wish you wouldn’t look so much at the Pam Andersons. They have a point. You may be ignoring many other traits that will make you happy.

    Ladies, listen to the men when they point out that all too many of you seem overly interested in their money, not them as people. Ignoring this valid complaint, dismissing it, and pretending it doesn’t exist, only gives men more reason to focus only on your looks since they know you are after his money.

    And yes, there are people (good-looking) out there who are not disproportionally focused on swimsuit looks and money. Keep the faith.

  7. 67
    Michael Ejercito

    “Speed dating is without doubt an unbeatable opportunity to have fun, expand your social circle and maybe even meet a potential partner.”

    This is true; and you get to see other people as they are , not in a touched-up, airbrushed photograph you would find in magazines.

  8. 68
    Michael Ejercito

    Half of the women that I come across are attractive. Excluding the fat ones, this would rise to four-fifths.

  9. 69
    Lisa

    I think men are more shallow and cruel than women … being judged on your looks starts when you are very young.. and hurts . by the time you are a preteen or teen you may have a very low self esteem and its due to men and boys. Personally I dont care how rich a man is I have to consider him attactive to look at or I dont want him touching me . I dont mean he has to be perfect and beauty is in the eye of the beholder but I have to like what I see. I cant understand how women can marry a rich ugly older man and go on to have a bunch of very ugly children lol. I would be willing to bet dollars to donuts those women all have hot young lovers ( no doubt attracted to their money ) and the whole vicious circle starts all over again.

    Lisa

  10. 70
    starthrower

    First-I-apologize-for-the-hyphens….my-spacebar-doesn’t-work.

    Second-after-reading-all-of-the-posts-I-wonder-how-men-and-women-form-couples-at-all.

  11. 71
    Michele

    Although I didn’t read each and every word that each and ever person wrote, I did adequately speed read and one thought came to mind…so many seem to make very broad generalizations about both women a/o men. And some posts are borderline hostile (for whatever reason).

    Success in any venue is predicated upon attitude. Success is learned from experience and experience comes from making mistakes – at least that’s my learned philosophy.

    Case in point…met a man this afternoon for lunch. We have been talking for about two weeks and he seemed miffed that I had to change our date from yesterday to today (pardon me, I do work for a living). Our conversations have been pleasant but something told me that he was not the one (whoever that might be). Why I agreed to lunch was simply because I am an eternal optimist and have found that my instincts are not always correct.

    That said in his case my instincts were correct. Somewhat nice guy and all, but could I see myself spending any amount of time with him, in the future, NO. Furthermore he’s not quite a mature Adonis but darn close. He obviously was telling the truth when he mentioned going to a gym 4 days a week. And he’s immaculate as well as a sharp dresser with incredibly nice teeth, a glowing smile and 6’4″ tall.

    So what went wrong…his manners for one when he shoved french fries into his mouth with his fingers – all he talked about was his kids and himself – he failed to make much eye contact, too. Just not my type.

    So what do I do? Make a general statement that all good looking tall men are less than desirable or simply carry on and consider our “date” yet another tribute to my sometimes iffy intuition. I will go with the latter.

    And on that note, while driving home received a call from a man who is not even close to being as “sharp” as Mr. Almost Adonis. We have been casually dating for the past few months. And we are going to see each other on Friday evening. I am actually excited about seeing him because we spend most of our dates laughing, holding hands and feeling like the World is ours for the moments we spend. Would I take a second look at him under other circumstances — NO.

    As for my appearance…am certainly not chopped liver and still turn a head or two for being a member of the baby boomer generation. Am told I am a combo of good genes and healthy living.

    Good Luck gals and guys. Keep your hearts open!

  12. 72
    Brady

    As a handsome,54-year-old rookie heavy metal drummer/lyricist/singer
    who’s 100% lad,I’m only interested in buxom blondes!!!!!!(34D-42D
    bra size,lasses!!!!!!)

  13. 73
    m

    “Ladies, listen to the men when they point out that all too many of you seem overly interested in their money, not them as people.”

    *sigh*

    Men, listen to the WOMEN when they point out that all too many of you seem overly interested in their looks, not them as people.

  14. 74
    m

    And one more thing, just because I’m curious and this excuse is used so frequently.

    If men are such visual creatures, why can’t you see what’s in the refrigerator, before asking your mate/spouse/S.O. where it is, WHEN IT’S RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU?!?

  15. 75
    m

    And then of course, like the OP mentioned yet again, there’s this:

    “What I really wanted to know was why are women who seek dating advice told to compromise on what they want and men really arent.”

    *crickets from the advice columnist (others as well as the one spotlighted here)*

    *crickets from loud opinionated male commenters*

  16. 76
    Selena

    M,
    Perhaps dating experts don’t advise men to compromise, or “settle” because they know doing so will fall on deaf ears. A man “wants what he wants” afterall. He can’t help it. Poor soul.

    Maybe it’s that there are more women out there who really want a LTR, and more men who just want to serially pursue tall, buxom, blue-eyed, blondes–heck with a LTR!

  17. 77
    verbosity

    Hmmmm,

    1. “Men, listen to the WOMEN when they point out that all too many of you seem overly interested in their looks, not them as people.”

    2. “And then of course, like the OP mentioned yet again, theres this:

    What I really wanted to know was why are women who seek dating advice told to compromise on what they want and men really arent.

    *crickets from the advice columnist (others as well as the one spotlighted here)*

    *crickets from loud opinionated male commenters*”

    Answers –

    1. You forgot about our looks, also. Men need to be hot, have money & have a great personality. All else being equal, the more ladies emphasize money versus looks, the more men will emphasize her looks. I wonder how ladies would feel having the same criteria (looks + personality+ money) applied to them…Right now, most men have to bring all 3 for a woman to feel she’s not ‘compromising.’ Women need only to bring 2 of the 3. They should be thankful.

    2. Because, generally speaking, men are always the ones compromising & reacting to women’s ever-changing desires. Men also generally accept demonization for simply being men (all men just want sex, men are pigs), thereby making the ultimate compromise. Such an imbalance is less than ideal. I recall Evan wrote somewhere “You dont like to get hit on in public, you dont want to date online and you dont want to be set up on blind dates. Tell us if sending messenger pigeons is an appropriate way of courting. Because if it is, were all over it.”

    Also consider sex…women in general control this. With the number of unfounded sex accusations that make news (Kobe Bryant, John McCain, Clarence Thomas), it’s no wonder men with an ounce of sense do not try to drive, let alone co-pilot that car. It’s not worth the risk (jail, reputation, etc.)

    Men compromise all the time regarding looks. Yes, we’d love supermodel X, but we’ll take you. Just as you would love Brad Pitt but compromise for us.

    For men, it’s generally a never-ending hopscotch game of reacting to what she wants….

    Women – “I want someone sensitive, caring & nurturing”
    Men – “I am sensitive, caring & nurturing”
    Woman – “I’m tired of all of these wimpy nice guys. I want real men”
    Men – “Me, Tarzan. You, Jane”

    I trust readers can see where I’m going with the above…So far, it seems as if controlling the board, the dice, and the rules doesn’t make you happy, then perhaps you should adjust your expectations. It’s all you can control, no?

  18. 78
    m

    “For men, its generally a never-ending hopscotch game of reacting to what she wants.”

    Poor pubby wubby wubby verbosity.

    I’ll call you a waaaaaaahhmmbulance.

    Men are, frequently, NO different in the capacity you describe.

    I will give you a small break because my guess is that you are heterosexual and therefore do not experience intimate relationships with men with great regularity.

    So perhaps a course of empathy might be in order.

    However, until such time as you take and pass such class successfully?

    STOP. WHINING.

    Women are not X-Boxes. There are no absolute rules that will work for EVERY woman across the board.

    Why? Because we are all different people! *gasp* *shock*

    Women, for the most part, learn to adapt to the fact that what worked in one relationship just might not work in the next one.

    If your infinitesimal brain can’t cope with that, you might want to commit to BEING SINGLE!!

    Oh, wait — you already did that in an earlier comment in an earlier post, didn’t you?

    :rolleyes:

  19. 79
    question for verbosity

    Perhaps you are right about how women unfairly expect men to be breadwinners on top of being good looking & sociable. But as Evan says, life is unfair and you can’t change others. What do you hope women will do in response to your grievances?

    Also, I have to wonder, with all due respect, if you don’t earn a lot of money. The reason I ask is because your primary complaint about women is that they care too much about men’s earnings. It seems likely to me that no one would complain about the rules of the game if they were winning at it, which leads me to think perhaps you’re not. Is that true? Do you believe women won’t go out with you because you don’t make enough?

    While we’re at it, I’m curious to know whether or not you’re divorced, verbosity. It helps to know what life experiences are informing people’s perspectives.

  20. 80
    starthrower

    i-have-a-dream…..i-have-a-dream-that-one-day-dates-will-not-be-judged-on-their-bust-to-waist-to-hip-ratio-or-their-wallet-and-bank-account-but-on-the-content-of-their-character-and-the-love-in-their-hearts…

  21. 81
    starthrower

    Evan-I-don’t-know-if-you-could-agree-with-my-line-of-thinking-but-it-seems-we-get-caught-up-in-these-silly-little-dramas-over-dating-that-we-forget-how-to-be-good-to-each-other….we-have-people-getting-blown-up-in-the-Middle-East,-crazed-gunman-shooting-up-whoever-they-can-point-a-gun-at-and-people-homeless-and-starving…We-think-we’re-having-a-bad-day-if-our-girlfriend-isn’t-a-busty-blonde-or-our-guy-earns-minimum-wage-at-the-Safeway…we-are-shallow-little-people…some-people-are-just-trying-to-figure-out-how-they-will-eat-that-day…love-is-supposed-to-be-safe-harbor-from-the-world’s-insanity.

    Ok-rant-over

  22. 82
    verbosity

    question,

    I find it interesting how people, including yourself, love to try and psychoanalyze me for the points I bring up. Curious how you, M and others in particular, fail to respond to the points raised. You may not like the points, but that does not invalidate the issue I raise. If you do wish to question WHAT I raise, fine. By all means do so. I’m not going to respond to insipid fishing expedition questions.

    M, Sweeite…

    I noticed no rebuttal regarding the issues of sex, Evan’s quote or the look-personality-money point above, the bulk of what I wrote. Unsurprising. Try and use that positive outlook of yours to try and have a positive discussion regarding those topics. Perhaps that simply isn’t possible with you, is it?

  23. 83
    Michael Ejercito

    Men, listen to the WOMEN when they point out that all too many of you seem overly interested in their looks, not them as people.

    That depends on whether or not women have something besides their looks.

  24. 84
    verbosity

    Kudos, Starthrower.

  25. 85
    JerseyGirl

    Maybe the real answer is that you just can’t ever win with men. After reading the article and the responses to it, that is exactly how it seems. If men want the hottest women around maybe they are better of snuggling up with their Playboys. Since that is obivously what men want and anything less then that is settling to men. Answer: If you are an average girl you might end up with a man but he will always be wishing for the 10 and that is the best you can expect from him. They arne’t kidding when they say it’s a man’s world.

  26. 86
    question for verbosity

    That’s fine if you don’t wish to answer questions about your personal life. You take a very strong stance against women in a lot of posts, and so it helps to know where you’re coming from. I still find it unlikely that you’d be complaining about women’s attention to money if money weren’t a problem for you.

    That aside, you still didn’t respond to my question, which was, given that we all know life is unfair, “What do you hope women will do in response to your grievances?”

    Also, are you positing that men’s preoccupation with looks is a direct result of women’s preoccupation with men’s wealth? You seem to be saying women deserve the shallow standards of men BECAUSE they themselves have shallow standards concerning men’s wallets. I thought men were just more visual.

    Finally, are you absolutely certain that most modern women insist on the “men-pay” model? Are you speaking from statistical evidence or from your own personal experience?

  27. 87
    verbosity

    question for verbosity wrote:

    “Perhaps you are right about how women unfairly expect men to be breadwinners on top of being good looking & sociable. But as Evan says, life is unfair and you cant change others. What do you hope women will do in response to your grievances?”

    First, they are not grievances, so do not try to infer that I’m somehow whining. They are the reality of the situation, like it or not. Secondly, I do not care what women (or men) do after reading about my view and other men’s similar views on the subjects. Some ladies may agree and move one step closer to understanding where many men com from, most I suspect would not. Many men who read mine and similar posts may agree and change their behavior, many not. That is the reality.

    However, my point is simple – that guys should disengage entirely from these women who look to men for what men can give them economically. Focus their energies on themselves & their careers and their personal lives(non-relationship), and if they do seek a relationship with the opposite sex, seek one who agrees with (and practice) the same philosophy.

  28. 88
    verbosity

    question, please see another thread. I’ll repost it here. Apologies to anyone for repetition.

    “question for verbosityFeb 27th 2008 at 07:56 pm 56

    How can you tell the difference between those women who are sincere and the ones who should be avoided because theyre too preoccupied with what they stand to gain economically?

    verbosityFeb 28th 2008 at 07:45 am 57

    question,

    You can tell the differences by watching WHAT they do. When a bill comes to they insist on paying? Do they do the half-assed purse reach? Do they just sit there like Cleopatra while you take care of it? Does she want to go to every high-end restaurant and club in town? With you paying? Does she talk about the trips her ex took her on to Europe/anyplace else? What does she do for work? What is her plan of advancement? If non, be careful. Is she a secretary that knows all high end clubs, restaurants and vacation spots? If she earns good $ (same or more than you) and never offers or insists on paying, you have a good indicator.

    By the way, these questions apply equally for both sexes. I do not understand why, if women can do the same jobs as, and earn the same (if not more than – see Warren Farrell), that either sex should pay the other for their companionship, which is really what we are talking about. I think its because those who insist on the inequality (men pay system, all else being equal), dont like the logical conclusion, that conclusion being tacit prostitution, at least in part. I mean payment for companionship, not necessarily sex. I think this answers womens oft-repeated complaint that men dont care about them as people. My answer is that if you insist on being paid for your company, you devalue yourself as a person and cannot reasonably expect someone to therefore care more about you as a person.”

    (End of comment)
    I’d probably add to the above final paragraph something like, “Therefore, if you devalue your personality, all you have left are looks. If that’s all there is left to value, more emphasis will be placed there.”

    “Also, are you positing that mens preoccupation with looks is a direct result of womens preoccupation with mens wealth?” – Yes.

    “You seem to be saying women deserve the shallow standards of men BECAUSE they themselves have shallow standards concerning mens wallets.” – Yes. Your characterization of men as shallow is unwarranted, and also posits that women somehow are ‘better.’ At least your statement accurately summarizes that both sexes are not seeking the most noble human characteristics, but I do not place the value judgment of ‘shallow’ on them.

    The above does not apply to all women or men, but does to an awful lot of them. I say the majority. Others disagree.

    I trust that answers your question.

  29. 89
    verbosity

    “Finally, are you absolutely certain that most modern women insist on the men-pay model? Are you speaking from statistical evidence or from your own personal experience?”

    Yes – See Evan’s blog topic re: women who earn more than men for additional info. The main article itself. Also, I referenced a yahoo article that says something like 75% of women said they’d marry for money. I think there’s more in there, though.

  30. 90
    JerseyGirl

    Said by Verbosity:

    Men compromise all the time regarding looks. Yes, wed love supermodel X, but well take you. Just as you would love Brad Pitt but compromise for us.

    —————————————————————————-

    That is the big difference between men adn women. Just because we don’t end up with Brad Pitt doesn’t mean we think we are settling. I am not even attracted to Brad Pitt. And even if there are “hotter” men out there, my man is the hottest one to me. With men, that isn’t the case. They automatically make some nameless girl in a magazine the “ideal” for what they want and say that their own wives/girlfriends are what they “settle” for. If men think they are “settling” so much then men should stick with fantasies about models and curl up with porn at night instead of treating the woman you claim you care about like a “settlement”.

    Men don’t care anyway if they don’t look like Brad Pitt because men aren’t as harshly judged and critized for the way they look. But how many guys here don’t want to be used or valued for their money? Certainly no guy here. Yet women are told that hey “Guy’s want models but they will take you because that’s all they can get and as a woman you should be really happy a man is willing to throw you some table scraps.” Seriously must be a nice world we live in for men.
    —————————————————————————-
    Also said:
    Some ladies may agree and move one step closer to understanding where many men com from, most I suspect would not.
    —————————————————————————-

    I try very hard to understand where men come from but I just don’t get it. To me, what men stand for seems cold, selfish, and takes away from the exact things that women want and want to feel from men.

    I in turn, wish men would take a step closer to try to be more understanding of where women come from, but like you, I also suspect many men don’t wish to do this. And like you would be pleased if women were more understanding, women would be too if the reverse happend. It is a two way street.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

You may use these HTML tags and attributes: <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <strike> <strong>