Really Good News If You’re Not That Young and Hot

Really Good News If You're Not That Young and Hot

I’ve written before on sexual market value – how we “rate” other people in comparison to others. It’s crude math, but it serves an important purpose:

It lets us know what we can realistically expect from dating.

A man who is a 2 – because he may be short, heavy, uneducated, unintelligent, unsuccessful, and insensitive – will probably not look in a mirror and see a 2. Chances are, he is attracted to (and feel like he “deserves”) a much more desirable woman than another 2.

Reality will likely prove him wrong. And that’s when he needs to adjust his standards.

For the most part, if you look around, people tend to match up pretty evenly.

Most people end up with people at their same “level,” in some respect. Wealthy men who are not particularly attractive may end up with women “above” them. Attractive women who are not particularly smart or kind may do the same. But, for the most part, if you look around, people tend to match up pretty evenly.

There’s been a lot of commentary on this blog about how the rating system is somehow “wrong,” because one person’s 5 is another person’s 9. Well, that’s somewhat true, according to recent psychological research. Stick with me here:

First of all, there really IS a pretty universal standard as to what’s attractive, so let’s not sweep that under the rug. According to a recent New York Times piece.

“Psychological research on first impressions has shown that men and women do, in fact, reach some degree of consensus about each other in precisely this way. During an initial encounter, some people generally inspire swooning, others polite indifference and others avoidance. Desirable qualities like attractiveness, charisma and success — the features that differentiate the haves from the have-nots — are readily apparent.”

At the same time, even if we can all easily pick out the Clooneys and Albas from the crowd, there is something very powerful that gives lower ranked people an edge:

“Yet alongside this consensus is an equally important concept: uniqueness. Uniqueness can also be measured. It is the degree to which someone rates a specific person as lower or higher than the person’s consensus value. For example, even if Neil is a 6 on average, certain women may vary in their impressions of him. Amanda fails to be charmed by his obscure literary references and thinks he is a 3. Yet Eileen thinks he is a 9; she finds his allusions captivating.”

People who are hot and charismatic will always attract people – online and in person – at alarming rates.

This makes perfect sense and tends to get lost when we talk about dating, mating, and sexual market value. My wife might see me as a 10 but some woman who values guys with tattoos, Harleys and guns probably wouldn’t even look twice at me. Similarly, look around a dating site: part of the reason some people succeed is because they STAND OUT. Their profiles are funny. Their photos are memorable. They list interesting hobbies. They are unique. Hell, I built an entire business out of helping people capture their unique qualities in their profiles, and yet this study is a very useful reminder – people who are hot and charismatic will always attract people – online and in person – at alarming rates. But for the rest of us, there is hope as people get to truly know you:

“The old axiom says beauty is in the eye of the beholder. When it comes to initial impressions, this statement is not really true: Consensus about desirable qualities creates a gulf between the haves and have-nots. But the truth of this maxim increases over time: As people get to know each other, decreasing consensus and increasing uniqueness give everyone a fighting chance.

So if you do not have a high mate value, take heart. All you need is for others to have the patience to get to know you, and a more level playing field should follow.”

Your thoughts, below, are appreciated.

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Comments:

  1. 1
    Karmic Equation

    This explains why women can grow to love men who are not conventionally attractive. But I really don’t think it’s the opposite per se. Women HAVE to pass his “doable” meter for him to consider a relationship with her. She doesn’t get “more doable” over time. It’s a simple binary yes/no for men.

     

    However, this WOULD explain how a man falls in love. Unlike women who may eventually find the cute things her guy did when he was courting her as un-cute over time, I believe that once a man falls in love, he falls in love with the woman’s quirks, too. In this sense, women have it better, because once a guy accepts his woman’s quirks, he doesn’t UN-accept them over time.

    1. 1.1
      TJ

      I think these are astute comments.

  2. 2
    Josie

    Millionaire Matchmaker Patti Stanger says “the penis does the picking.”  Crude but true.  I guess this post is right, but it can be hard to overcome the sheer number of disinterested men in online dating.   The large majority of the men of online dating focus in on looks and “average pretty” women, fit and pretty women who may not be 8-10s in their profile pics, are ignored in favor of hotter women.

    Women, even women who are open to dating less conventionally appealing guys, grow frustrated after they are continually ignored by decent matches but contacted by men who are poor matches as far as age, intelligence, relationship intent, men who lead unhealthy lifestyles, and schlubby men who present with “red flags” in their clingy attachment style.   I do know a few women who have had success with O.D. but many of those success stories come with caveats –   one early 40s friend settled for a man who was a poor match and they are unhappy, another married an alcoholic, another is in a passive aggressive relationship where they never fight but he’s a door mat.

    I KNOW it’s possible to meet someone, but I am just getting so tired of the process.

    1. 2.1
      Curt

      “Millionaire Matchmaker Patti Stanger says “the penis does the picking.”  Crude but true.  I guess this post is right, but it can be hard to overcome the sheer number of disinterested men in online dating.   The large majority of the men of online dating focus in on looks and “average pretty” women, fit and pretty women who may not be 8-10s in their profile pics, are ignored in favor of hotter women.”

      I think a lot of it has to do with what sites you use as well, but online dating is kind of crappy for everyone except the most attractive people who will always get the most offers. You might find that there are tons of disinterested men, but from my perspective during my time as a male online dater, it was all disinterested women. I threw messages out to every women I could conceivably find arousing in some way, not just the “hottest” and I had maybe a 1%-3% response rate. And I contacted hundreds of women, with individualized messages. Most of the responses were merely to tell me to piss off or to reject me in some direct or indirect way. A few were kind enough to say that they liked my message but did not find me to be their type, whatever that was exactly.

      I don’t think of myself as an unattractive guy, but being short (I can only assume this was the reason), I was practically invisible. I updated my photos several times in an attempt to show my unique and charming attributes and a well-to-do and active lifestyle. I wrote a short but lighthearted and humorous profile about myself and the type of person I’d like to meet (it was not a long or difficult list for the vast majority of women to meet). Didn’t matter.

      The only women to contact me were either old enough to be my mother or were obese (and I mean clinically obese, not just in-my-opinion obese).

      The one girl who had a mutual attraction with me turned out to still be hung up on her ex and she also regularly drank and did drugs. I stopped online dating after that.

      So, don’t be disheartened. Unless you’re, as either a male or female, model-esque, it’s basically a slog through a lot of disappointment on both sides.

      1. 2.1.1
        pat

        I’m sorry for your crummy experiences with online dating, but for what it’s worth, you sound like a delightful person and I’m sure you’ll get snatched up in no time. 🙂  I’ve never really understood the whole height requirement that some women have.  Yes, it can be attractive, but personality, kindness, loyalty, etc mean much, much more.  Whatever – it’s their loss!  Good luck.

        1. Curt

          Thank you for your kind words.

          As a whole, I think online dating is fraught with too many issues to be a truly useful dating solution. Sure it helps people meet those they might otherwise never meet, but it presents many issues such as identity theft, fraud, and it creates the illusion of abundance which can make people overlook otherwise good matches.

          In certain circumstances it can be a useful tool to add to your dating arsenal, but one should never make it the only tool at one’s disposal. I’m pretty sure Evan has said this on several occasions.

      2. 2.1.2
        pat

        Wow.  I never considered that there was a risk of identity theft or fraud.  If you’ve heard any anecdotes feel free to share.

        1. Curt

          Yes, you have to be careful who you trust. There’s no need to be scared, since the majority of users are likely trustworthy everyday people, but there are instances of people using fake photos (sometimes for fun, other times to lure in people) as scams, others may try to gain your trust in order to extort money, and others may find out personal or financial information and sell it.

          Again, this is not to raise alarm, but you should always look out for red flags in the way people write to you. You should endeavor to chat with the person on the phone or on video chat if possible and always meet in a brightly lit or daytime neutral area where many people can see you for a first (and probably second) date. Standard precautions.

      3. 2.1.3
        Karl S

        If it’s any consolation, I’m a 6’3 male and in pretty good shape. I’ve still written about 200-250 personalized messages to various women over the course of a month across several sites and I only ever get about the same response rate as you. It paid off eventually though. I’m seeing a bunch of people right now in a casual capacity and life is quite good. You just gotta keep rolling that dice.

      4. 2.1.4
        pat

        Great information.  Thank you so much, Curt. 🙂

        1. Curt

          You’re welcome. As an example, there was a story on Dr. Phil a little while ago about a woman who created a fake profile to disguise herself as a wealthy and attractive man in order to more easily talk to women because she was apparently confused about her sexual orientation and she wanted to determine if she really was a lesbian.

          In the end she catfished numerous women who were led on by what they thought was a man in love with them. Once they found out that it was a woman behind the computer, they were not too pleased about being lied to. Some of the women were ready to meet and date the “man” they thought they knew.

      5. 2.1.5
        Danielle

        Curt, in another comment you wrote, “others may find out personal or financial information and sell it”. Would you please kindly give examples of how and what kind of financial info  a male could take or learn from a female and sell it?

        1. Curt

          Anyone could acquire the following from any other person:

          Bank account numbers, credit/debit card numbers, PIN codes, address of financial institution, check numbers, etc.

          Most people are smart enough to not give away too much info, but manipulative people may try to push for such info or may be able to piece it together from other answers you have given.

          I don’t know how it happened, but someone got my credit card number and started making fraudulent purchases. It wasn’t an online dater that did it, but it is clearly not too difficult for some people to work out some information and steal money.

        2. Danielle

          Thank you for yr reply, below. If it’s not too personal, how do you think yr info was obtained? So sorry that happened to you!

        3. Karmic Equation

          Curt, it sounds as if you were victim of ID theft that didn’t have anything to do with online dating. So you shouldn’t be talking about that at all. It sounds like you’re just making suppositions.

           

          Yes, there are scammers out there in online dating. And anyone passing along PINs, credit card numbers, bank account numbers via the internet with anyone they haven’t even MET yet are nuts. Hell, I don’t give that information to anyone who isn’t my husband. Obviously merchants are going to be given this info if I’m doing business by phone or online.

           

          People need to use some common sense and healthy caution with their financial information.

        4. Curt

          I never had my ID stolen in an online dating situation, but I have heard of it happening. Just be careful out there. Sometimes people make mistakes. I have received messages from women asking pretty questionable things (both financial and sexual) very quickly so I assumed they were scams or just not the type of people I would want to associate with.

      6. 2.1.6
        CC

        I read an article that said that 80% of people online will never actually go on a date. I kind of believe this. I wish I had known that when I was online dating, it would not have been so frustrating or feel so rejecting. If online daters know this, they can take all the typing with a grain of salt.

        1. BikerAccnt

          I must be pretty lucky, every woman I’ve had a conversation with, who I’ve asked out, has gone out with me. IT may not of led to second dates with all of them, but I’ve found that if I’ve exchanged more than a couple of emails they are willing to go out.

           

           

      7. 2.1.7
        Ames

        I have wondered why obese women are undatable. I see lots of pretty put together obese women that still have waistlines, wear makeup and have great hair. Some women are put off by short fellas because they look child like but it takes maturity to push past silly biases. It’s much harder to be fit when a person is under 5 feet tall or has more estrogen and not testosterone. Or heck, works standing 12 hour days. Not necessarily a character flaw but perhaps the match for an obese woman is a short guy. See the value in each other that others overlook. As long as someone is active and can do what they want, why would it matter?

    2. 2.2
      Christine

      Josie, I’m really sorry for your crummy experiences and believe me that I can empathize.  I spent about 5 years online, going through all the crap you just outlined.  I spent so many sleepless nights frustrated when what’s-his-face disappeared on me, or wondering if I had to resign myself to being alone.  I was really, really about to give up on love when I met my boyfriend of five months on there.  Since it’s still early I’m trying not to get my hopes up, but he is really everything I ever hoped for, and consistently treats me like a queen.  Like the title of this post, I’m not that young and hot so if I can do it, so can just about anyone.  I’m now in my mid-30s and realistically know I’m mildly attractive–but not a Victoria’s Secret model either.  And I also know other women like me who’ve managed to do it too, and have found great guys.  None of us really did anything all that special either, but just kept going. So I wanted to give encouragement that it’s possible, even after a string of bad experiences and dating fatigue (and I had more than my fair share of that, which makes me appreciate my boyfriend even more!)

       

    3. 2.3
      Wbotb

      Yeah well my vajayjay does the picking. I go for the hottest guys and they go for me. He can be th nicest sweetest guy. Who cares. If he’s not hot he ain’t for me. I’m emotionally stable and I don’t need any coddling from a guy who can’t match up to how attractive I am. I would be constantly getting whiplash from having a wandering eye. It’ll never work. I guess men are Gina have to step up their game now when it comes to looks.

    4. 2.4
      Anonymous

      EXACTLY. I used to consider myself in the average-to-attractive range. After seeing the results I got on OLD (I’m a female in my early 30s), I felt completely hideous.

  3. 3
    Gabri'el

    Finally! I love this post! I get so tired of the clichés people use to justify being lazy with maximizing themselves physically in  dating, while at the same time brandishing pitchforks and torches to lynch the attractive person! It’s so easy to put down naturally attractive people while simultaneously not doing everything possible to maximize your own physical attractiveness.

    People don’t like admitting that their is a natural standard of beauty, not Hollywood’s standard, but a natural standard. But just because you recognize someone as being attractive doesn’t mean that you have “attraction” for them; the saying should be “attraction is in the eye of the beholder”.

    I guess I’m just so DAMN tired of hearing men and women attack a person for being really attractive by assuming their character is subpar, implying that this person would make a naturally bad boyfriend or girlfriend. It is easier to do this then it is to go back and finish college, go to a gym and eat healthy, or learn to dress in a attractive way.

    1. 3.1
      Contender

      Studies show that good looking people get an edge in life, because they are immediately likeable.  For example, studies have shown that tall men have a higher lifetime income than short men.  Good looking women may need to demonstrate that they are intelligent and capable, but they are not hated or attacked for their looks per se.

      1. 3.1.1
        CC

        We are all conditioned to this from birth. We can overcome some of our conditioning if we want to be sophisticated and look at how someone comports themselves, their empathy, their manners and genuine humanity and hygiene. Consideration is beautiful and harder to find than good teeth.

        1. McLovin

          This is actually false. There is an objective and innate standard of beauty.

           

          This is not to discount socialization completely, as it does have some effect.

           

          It has been studied with infants and their reactions to different faces. They hold their gaze on beautiful faces (symmetrical, large eyes etc.) measurably longer than on average or ugly faces.

        2. Karmic Equation

          CC,

          If that were the case, you should not be lonely EVER CC. There’s a whole lot of 1s, 2s, and 3s you could date and you would be the only one dating them. So you would have thousands to choose from and never lack for love. Because I’m sure there are thousands of fat, cross-eyed men with a snaggle-tooth, who read Keats and Satre, who’re empathetic, hygienic, and ooze genuine humanity, just looking to give you all the love and devotion you’re looking for.

           

          Sorry for the sarcasm.

           

          But unless (generic) you’ve been in relationships with ugly men, telling others to date for what’s inside just does not fly. We women want men who are 8-10s dating us and overlooking our physical flaws. But we’re not willing to do the same and date the shorter than us guy with a pock-marked face.

           

          Gimme a break.

    2. 3.2
      Adam

      Sorry Gabriel, that all of us aren’t ex models who are in medical school studying to be a brain surgeon like you. We normal looking people struggle with dating.

       

      You don’t know how it feels to have someone look right pass you just because you don’t have magizine cover looks or body.

       

      Or even worse, to hear the person who you are attracted to complain about not being able to find a good man or good woman, someone who wants loves and would treat them right. They say this to or around you because to them you aren’t even a consideration.

      Why??? Because they think they deserve someone more attractive like they see in the movies, and sadly, most times they themselves look average also. It is not that people can’t find someone, it is that EVERYONE thinks they deserve the best looking people.

       

      Well I can tell you Gabriel, it HURTS! Because you know that you are average looking, your body is average looking, your job which pays the bills is average, your car is new but not a luxury car, and if you are a man, your height isn’t tall, it is average. In other words, you don’t understand what dating is like for the average man or woman.

      Most people who date, seek someone with above average looks and bodies. And if you are a man, then not only does your looks and body have to be above average, but also your salary, your height, your personality, and your humor.

      Humor and personality can be developed, and your body to a certain degree, but your face and your height can’t, you have what you were born with, yet society and the media treats people who aren’t born looking like like models like they should be less desireable.

       

      The next person we date doesn’t have to be a model, but we at least want someone who we find attractive, someone who is with us because they find us attractive and not just because they are only with us until someone better comes along.

       

      We get so tired of the speeches given to us about looks don’t matter, just because people think we can’t get or don’t deserve a person who is at least equeally attractive. I know that I am no model, but do I really have to date down just to find someone?

      And just so you know… Dating down doesn’t always just mean a person’s looks or body.

       

      I think I once read a post by you were you stated that your inbox is usually full, well again, that doesn’t happen to the average man, and as Rena said in 5, even average women struggle somewhat with online dating.

      If we could find someone in real life we wouldn’t online date. Online dating is suppose to give us a wider chance of meeting someone, but if the only people who contact you are people who you either feel not physical attraction to or people who you mentally feel not attraction to, then it does affect our self-esteem.

      Just because a women is overweight, doesn’t mean that she would make a bad girlfriend, just because a guy is 5’10 instead of 6’3 doesn’t mean that he would make a bad boyfriend, but this is what we face everyday with online dating.

       

      NO ONE picks on really attractive people, we just think it’s unfair that everytime we turn around, tv, movies, magizines, posters, etc are filled with pictures of really attractive people. To hear the opposite sex oh and ah over a level of beauty that we know personally we can NEVER achieve.

       

      My female colleagues experience the same thing. These are nice, smart, accomplished women with: bachelors, masters, and doctorate degrees. Their not thin, but they are not fat either; they are slightly overweight, yet they are energetic and fun to be around. They are in their late 30s to mid 40s. You would think these women would be a catch, but they struggle with online dating. Sure they have no trouble being contaccted by men online, but because they have the look of a woman who would never grace the cover of Maxim magizine, attractive, successful guys with options don’t contact them.

      And that is their main problem, choose the attractive guy who is 20 years younger and probably just wants to brag about having sex with a older woman, or the unattractive guy her age who has a Ph.d, but he is really boring. Of course there is the attractive guy her age who is still living paycheck to paycheck, but these are the only type of guys who they say contact them.

      Most guys who have the combination of looks and success seek the thinner, prettier women, younger women, even if she is 35 living with her parents or has 6 roommates, and her only job is part-time at a clothing store, these men choose looks over quality.

      ……

      In online dating, if you are a guy, you will struggle unless you are in the top percentile which includes looks, body, and income. If you are a woman, you will struggle unless you are at least slightly above average in looks and have a slight thinner than average body. The better looking a woman is the more options she has, the better looking, taller, and more money a man has, the more options he has.

       

      The sexy, bad boy, can be a jerk and doesn’t have to care about how he treats a woman, because when she leaves he knows that 10 more will be lined up waiting to take her place and not just 10 more average looking women, but 10 more attractive women. The Hot woman knows the same, so again Gabriel, you don’t know how it feels to struggle in dating, because you never had to worry about finding someone, for people like you, being single is nothing.

      1. 3.2.1
        McLovin

        “Sure they have no trouble being contaccted by men online, but because they have the look of a woman who would never grace the cover of Maxim magizine, attractive, successful guys with options don’t contact them.”

         

        So they admit to being average, slightly overweight, etc. and yet, they feel miffed when they aren’t contacted by the top-tier men with options.

        Do you see the irony, nay, hypocrisy here, Adam?

         

      2. 3.2.2
        CC

        Good reply. Looks are everything, and we all know it. It’s sad but true. What I find is that my female friends that starve themselves to be valuable to men are just plain cranky and in bad moods all the time. Hunger hurts. The skinnier a woman is, the worse she can treat her man and get away with it. We have to make as decision to be physically comfortable by eating a healthy diet and having a body that use to be considered “hot” (Elizabeth Taylor, Marilyn Monroe) or restricting restricting restricting to look like the bones that men are conditioned to want these days. Partly, I think it is not even what men are attracted to, but they use women as their measuring stick of acquisition and validation for the world to behold: look at me, I scored a REALLY skinny woman, I’m really SOMETHING. There also is some aspect of domination in requiring your woman to starve herself. It’s just plain mean.

        1. McLovin

          Attitude is everything, CC.

           

          Yours reeks of entitlement.

           

          Just sayin’.

        2. Karmic Equation

          CC,

           

          Where do you live? Because men where I live are not at all like this.

           

          So either you live or frequent places where men are like this or your perception of men are really skewed.

           

          Certainly some men are like this. I know of a few. And they have issues of their own. The men whom I would consider normal do not think they have to score a skinny woman to be considered “all that”. All men want to score beautiful-to-them women. Just as most women want to score good-looking-to-her men, who also meet other criteria. In this sense men are LESS picky than women. If she’s pretty, he’ll date her. If she’s got a good personality he may give a relationship a try. For women, he has to make X-amount of money, be minimum of Y-tall, have ambition, be funny, in addition to good looking.

           

          Is it any wonder why men can get into relationships so quickly?

           

          They’re also smarter daters. The woman starts exhibiting flaws or behaviors he can’t tolerate or accept? He ends the relationship. What do women do, they try to change him.

           

          Unfortunately most women feel that trying to change a man is more acceptable than dumping him because “she loves him”. Guys are more practical and smarter when it comes to relationship. Accept her and deal with it or dump her. None of this “changing” business that makes both parties miserable in the long run.

      3. 3.2.3
        Chris

        well said  Adam! It is so true out there for most of us!

  4. 4
    Cat5

    All of us old, unattractive, overweight people really appreciate the good news and hope you have given us.  :-/

    1. 4.1
      CC

      It’s not true though. Even old guys want their old women to be bones. Remember Nancy Reagan? Look at Jane Fonda, she’s an eating disorder on legs. Old guys think she’s “hot”. I think she looks frail and wobbly.

  5. 5
    Rena

    I appreciate the article and also have read the one where you listed how a high percentage of men only contact the most attractive women online, but women will respond to less attractive men who contact them.  I’m not sure where the good news is though for women.  Maybe for men that women can look at the whole package and appreciate their quirks or skills but the issue is men still look at external beauty and I get so many “2”a who contact me yet everyone tells me I am very attractive, successful, warm and friendly but equal guys rarely contact me because I feel like maybe they want someone hot.

    1. 5.1
      Karmic Equation

      Maybe you’re a 5 and the 5’s are responding to you. But you see 5’s as 2’s.

       

      If you write to those YOU deem as 7’s and they don’t write back, then the market is saying you’re not a 7 in their eyes. And you need to set your sights lower.

       

      Date the most attractive of the “2’s” that write to you. Or go on the assumption that you’re not as attractive as you’ve been told and go do something about it…new makeup techniques, new hairdo, new wardrobe, etc.

       

      If you’ve got too much time on your hands because you’re not dating, get a gym membership and go to the gym daily. It does feel good to sweat. And the endorphin kick is always good to counter any mild depression. And it certainly kills time while being good for you, and ultimately, you’ll reap good results, because if you’re not dating but rather getting into better shape, you’ll eventually be in great shape and command better dating prospects.

      1. 5.1.1
        Rena

        Lol…I know we won’t figure this out on here.  I have heard all these from dates, “wow I didn’t think you would write back”; “you’re so attractive I can’t beleive your single”.  One guy I asked for feedback why am I not approached in person but get emails online and he said he would be afraid i’d turn him down in person.  Also I’ve had feedback from friends who’ve met some of my dates that they were not up to par for me. So confusing.

        I do workout 2-3 times a week at a gym.   One thing I’ve found is that I have a highly technical job, own my home and I think some guys find this threatening because many of the guys live in condos or apartments and don’t have as high level jobs as me.

        I’m ok with that but I think they aren’t.

        1. Karmic Equation

          Lol. Well, in THAT case, perhaps your written profile is “not approachable”? Too dry, too technical, doesn’t show your individuality/personality in a “friendly” light?

           

          I highly recommend EMK’s e-Cyrano service to help rewrite your profile to make you more approachable online 🙂

           

           

      2. 5.1.2
        Adrian

        Karmic Equation, I have found that for some reason when it comes to situations like this, most people only choose to believe the fantasy and not reality.

        Just because most people are too nice to tell them the truth, so you have the old looking women who actually believe they look 10 years younger, and you have the women who are 2 who think they are 6s.

        Rena, people are nice in general  not mean jerks, so of course they are going to tell you that you are attractive to your face. I am not calling you ugly, I am just saying you may be as Karmic said.

        Because averagely attractive women have their inboxes flooded by men of all attraction levels, so a very attractive women, wouldn’t even have to worry about having to only choose between just 2’s.

        I go to the gym everyday, and I see men and women who come 3 times a week. So just because a person says that they go to the gym, doesn’t mean that they have a slim body.

        Or…

        Maybe none of these things are true about you, maybe you are very attractive with a nice slim toned gym body and you are just very picky.

        Which again would make what Karmic said true, a 7 to most people could be only a 3 to you, if that is the case, then there really so no solution anyone could give you.

        1. Sandra

          I do not agree. Not sure I wish to elaborate, but not true at all.  And all this numbers and ratings is depressing at the very least.  So now a woman like Rena who is probably reasonably or quite attractive ( not necessarily super or attention grabbing) is a 2-5 because inadequate men contact her.  Unattractive, aimless men always contact attractive women online, what do they have to lose?  Online dating is a very distorted reality, with lots of illusions and fantasies, not to mention the scores of flakes and losers who populate it.  Also, if she is above a certain age, equally attractive men nay only be searching for super hot, not pleasantly appealing.

        2. CC

          It’s proven that people regularly overrate their own appearance by a lot and undervalue the attractiveness of others. This is a lot of the reason no one can hook up. If people focused on the values and humor of the other, it could work out, but they all worry about clothes and hair. Humans are pretty ridiculous.

  6. 6
    Contender

    Josie (#2): “The large majority of the men of online dating focus in on looks and “average pretty” women, fit and pretty women who may not be 8-10s in their profile pics, are ignored in favor of hotter women.”

     

    Evan, you mentioned your service for creating online profiles.  I think you also help with getting good pictures?

    1. 6.1
      CC

      I always love how disgruntled men are on internet dates with the women regularly post old photos! Well, don’t be so overly critical of women’s looks and we may come out with an accurate pic. Also, when you figure that EVERYONE is posting pics 20 years old, then you will be the only woman on the site that looks like a 50 something if you post current, and the other 50 somethings look like they are in their 20’s. And the guys buy this cause their brains tell them that women in their 50s CAN look like they are in their 20s. Any reasonably not stupid person can browse these 50 something woman and see the photo is touched up or old, it’s obvious. Then you see someone who looks like a normal 50 year old, and in comparison they look ancient. I’m tired of humanity.

      1. 6.1.1
        McLovin

        “I’m tired of humanity.”

         

        I’m seeing a pattern with your comments here, CC. You blame everyone but yourself for your own problems. Everything is the menz fault. ™

         

        1. CC

          I don’t blame men so much as our culture. Just like people (especially in the South) are raised with bigotry and racism and that keeps perpetuating. Our culture is a beauty and youth culture. That’s just a fact. I don’t feel like a victim because I see it as a condition and not a reflection of my worth. Hey, not “getting” a man is just not the worst thing that can happen to a woman. I have fun, I get around, I have dates. Sorry I don’t take it as seriously as you would like, it’s kind of ridiculous. Not a victim at all, just an observer. It sure makes YOU uncomfortable though it appears.

      2. 6.1.2
        Karmic Equation

        Men don’t get jaded as quickly as women in online dating. I can’t tell you how many men told me they met the older, greyer, fatter version of the woman in the pictures they wrote to. A few even told me the pictures weren’t even of the women they actually met!

         

        Nevertheless, those men shrugged it off and continued to try.

         

        Possibly because men never stop trying for sex. LOL

         

        And if that’s the case, then I would suggest that women never stop trying for relationships.

         

        Don’t let men win!

        1. CC

          Women want sex too! They just don’t think you have to diminish someone’s value because they want to fornicate. On the other hand women who are good in the sack seem to be stigmatized. Or so I’ve heard 😉

        2. Karmic Equation

          They just don’t think you have to diminish someone’s value because they want to fornicate.”

           

          How exactly do men diminish women’s value when they want to fornicate, CC?

           

          I cannot diminish your value. You cannot diminish mine. Men cannot diminish a woman’s value. Women cannot diminish a man’s value.

           

          So your statement makes absolutely no sense as written. Could you clarify?

           

  7. 7
    Stacy

    Sorry but I find that there is usually an imbalance if we are talking about JUST physical attraction.

    Women are notorious for accepting less than ideal looks because of some aspect of a man’s personality or wealth or ‘other’ factor.  Men ‘grow’ on women.  On the other hand, women tend not to ‘grow’ on men concerning the physical.

    As a result, I find that women tend to outpace their partners in physical attractiveness much more often than not.  While I know Hollywood does not always depict reality but in this instance it’s clear…rarely do you find the superstar woman who is not drop dead hot. However, you can go through the list and find men of average or below average attractiveness in droves who are still sold as ladies men because of their charisma or talent.

    So, I find that I tend to see women who are 8s for instance, with men who are say…5s. Yes, I am aware that putting numbers to this is a bit ummm…unromantic.   As a result, I dont think most couples match (especially men and women post 40). A man can come to the table with average or below average attractiveness and still get the hottie if his other qualities find him capable  but a woman  more often than not has to be ‘hot’ in some way.

    1. 7.1
      Adrian

      Stacy, I actually see the oposite. What you stated was already brought up by another female commentor a few years ago on this blog. After which I started paying closer attention to the individual sexual marking ratings of couples I saw.

      The article and research team Evan quoted were right. For the most part, the man and woman I manly see are around the same rating, maybe with the difference of a point of 2 at most.

      But when you bring children into the equation, the difference becomes very big. Most women gain weight after children, the more children the more weight. So it’s very common to see a women who maybe was once a 6 now looking like a 4, while her boyfriend or husband still looks like a 6.

      Stacy maybe you see women who are 8s with men who are 5s because these women have not confidence in themselves. I have to agree with Evan on this one, confidence is important. Once a women loses confidence in her looks and body, she will seek the level of guy she thinks she deserves.

      1. 7.1.1
        Stacy

        Adrian,

        We live in a different time.  I live in a major metropolitan area so maybe I am also coming from that perspective but…I have had two kids from a previous marriage and have damn near a 6 pack.  It’s not that unusual to see where I am from. Women have much more resources than they’ve had previously – not to mention the technology that is available to ‘change’ yourself (although it will most likely be something I would never use).  Most women I know seem to be well aware that their sexual market value (fortunately or unfortunately depending on how you look at it) heavily rests on their physical attractiveness while men (fortunately or unfortunately) know that it is not a necessity.

        In addition, women have additives that they can use (makeup anyone?) while men don’t have much ammunition as they age.  As a result, my opinion still stands that women (especially those trying to acquire a mate) tend to take care of themselves better than our lovely male counterparts out of necessity and societal perceptions.  Yes, women sometimes gain weight with children but again, we live in a different time when that is much more easily managed.

        Again I say, it’s the Hugh Heffner syndrome.  A man can be old, decrepit, have a big ole belly but if he has resources/charm, etc., beautiful women will follow.  Whoopi Goldberg could have just as many resources and men will not be knocking down her door.

    2. 7.2
      CC

      You are 100% right on with this one. Then add the fact that men have the advantage in numbers, with more women dating than men after a certain age and you see women accepting men with not only inferior looks, but inferior manners, intelligence and sometimes less money. If a woman gets her “match” after a certain age, she has excelled, it does not usually happen. My standards keep getting lower and lower, in education, appearance, and intelligence. I wonder how low I will go, but I’m a little scared to find out as well. This is another of the many ways men are advantaged in society, and why women are the ones reading all these dating sites and wondering why it is so hard. The cards really are stacked against us, and age makes it worse and worse.

      1. 7.2.1
        McLovin

        It must really suck to be a victim all the time, with society, media, men and patriarchy all out to oppress you.

        1. CC

          I just like to be honest about what I’m up against. Sorry you don’t appreciate my view point. Again, not a victim, just a realist. I would rather see what’s up than run around chasing men and crying because they don’t “like me” or they “just disappeared”. So what if they disappear. Where’s THAT attitude? Oh wait, sorry EMK. I know we’re supposed to want a man more than ANYTHING else on the planet. Why IS that do you suppose McLovin? (the name….fast food, fast sex, I get it). Not surprised my slightly feminist POV is not to your liking.

        2. Evan Marc Katz

          CC, where did I say you’re supposed to want a man more than ANYTHING else on the planet? And if I didn’t say that, why are you attributing such words to me? It seems to me that you want to turn me into some sort of straw man caricature of the patriarchy, as opposed to what I really am – a guy who spends every second of every day helping women understand men and make healthier relationship choices. If you don’t find my advice to your liking, I take no offense and wish you all the best.

      2. 7.2.2
        Sparkling Emerald

        CC @ 7.2 I agree with you that for older women the ratio of eligible, relationship oriented men to women is not in our favor.  I feel really lucky and elated to have found a wonderful man at age 59, after a 25 year marriage ended in a traumatic divorce.  I would like to gently suggest that you Re-evaluate your standards as opposed to “lowering” them.  You mentioned appearance, education and income.  I saw nothing about kindness, disposition or devotion on your standards list.  Find a man with THOSE qualities, and suddenly, it won’t matter if he’s blue collar, white collar, under 6 feet tall, eats his entree with a salad fork, and is merely pleasant looking as opposed to devastatingly handsome.

        1. CC

          Sparkling Emerald: You couldn’t be more wrong about my standards. I have dated what most women would consider very unattractive in an attempt at a kind and considerate man. My desires are as follows: empathy, emotional availability, consideration, good conversation, and fun (enjoys going out sometimes, seeing music, doing something occasionally). In trying to find this I have deceived my self. When he comments too much on appearance I say: guys are just wired this way. When he never calls between sex dates I say: He really IS busy. When he only talks about himself I say: I really am a good listener, it’s me not him. Then, the light goes on and I wake up depressed as hell. Then I know it’s time to “exit stage left”. Unfortunately my pattern is to be so fed up by this point, not having expressed any dissatisfaction with the relationship for fear of being alone, that I freak out after being Ms. Pleasant the whole time. They do something pretty egregious, as they have gotten more and more comfortable with my compliance and royally screw up (in my opinion). They must be surprised as I often am at the ferocity of my breakups which may or may not contain curse words. Not cool, but I’m learning. So…NO, not going after money, looks or education. But I still need to learn to manage my interpersonal relationships in a healthier way, and that’s why I read Evan. Why do you read Evan? You sound set.

        2. SparklingEmerald

          Hi again CC

          The only reason I was wrong about your standards is because the post I was responding to only mentioned inferior education, appearance, and intelligence. Glad to hear that you value empathy, consideration, etc.

          I’m not suggesting the extreme end of dating men who are ugly, broke and stupid.  A man can be attractive without being 6 feet tall and looking like a movie star.  A hard working blue collar worker might not be making a 6 figure salary, but if he is generous and careful with what he has, then he and a woman with comparable financial stability (as opposed to extreme wealth) can make a nice comfortable life together.  And I have met many interesting, INTELLIGENT, people with no college education.

          “Emotionally Available” men (or as I now prefer to call them, emotionally INTERESTED men) are never to busy to call in between “sex dates”, and will even spend time with you without sex.

          I know after a certain age (I am 60) it doesn’t get easier, that’s why it’s even more important not to waste any time on a man who you are not attracted to (don’t try and “learn” to be attracted to someone, that only works for a handful of women, if you were one of those few women,  you would know it by now) and don’t waste time on a man who’s only passing time with you in hopes of a bed buddy falling in love with you.  That rarely happens either.

          As for why I am here . . . thanks for asking.  I am doing well now, but 4 years ago, I was not.  I had an approx 25 year marriage end in a traumatic divorce.  The marriage started off wonderful, then soured.  Living on the MEMORIES of the good times, I was desparately searching the internet for advice on how to save my marriage.  Even after THREE marriage counselors told me there was nothing left to save.  On the internet there is lot’s of bad stand by your man . . . even if he is an a$$h0le advice.  I finally admitted defeat on the marriage, and stumbled across Evan’s column in my internet relationship advice searches.

          So basically I paid hundred of dollars to marriage counselors who told me to divorce my hubby and find someone who loves me JUST AS I AM, and EMK is giving the same free advice on his blog !

          I still struggled for 3 years post separation/divorce, before I found my sweetie at the end of last year.  I didn’t really make any major changes to my personality, I just kept plugging away, meeting guys, rejecting and being rejected by guys.  The whole nine yards.  Some were good guys, just not a match.  Some were just after sex with me, some seemed good and promising at first, but either they  decided that I wasn’t for them, or I decided they weren’t for me, and one very promising relationship that seem to break up out of the blue, I recently discovered that he went back to “the crazy psycho ex wife” who took him to the cleaners financially,  he told me was so over with.  (His excuse that I lived too far away and that he didn’t like my home decor seemed pretty lame, I was rather relieved to hear that he dumped me for an ex-wife and not on account of my home decor)

          The only major change that I made, just before meeting my boyfriend was I changed my  hair color from red back to brunette.  Probably a co-incidence.  (Red hair was getting to be to costly and high maintainence)

          As I mentioned, I didn’t do a personality overhaul, and except for my hair color, no major change to my appearance.  I did however re-do my profile a-la Evan’s advice, and later even had his E-Cyrano service re-write my profile for me.  But still, it was about a year with my new and improved profile before I was coupled up.  Met lot’s of flakers and fakers along the way.

          I agree that the ratio of available relationship oriented men to women after a certain age is not in our favor, and about all you can do is tilt the odds in your favor and not waste time on emotionally unsatisfying relationships.

          I feel really LUCKY to have found love again after my divorce.  I don’t think I’m some super-di-duper love Goddess or  any such thing.  I’m not an especially talented dater, (or an especially awful date either) Although I’m considered pretty cute, I am not a beauty queen.   I’m basically the same person I was a few years ago as I am now.  Your basic nice, “averagely cute” woman.  A few years ago I was searching for love, at this point in time, I am happily in love.    Guess it was just my time (finally)

          I am glad that I finally let go of my dead marriage.  I am happy to be in a good place now with my love life, but if I had never found my match, I still would have been MUCH BETTER off alone than stuck in a miserable union.

          Sometimes it really is just a matter of time and finding your match.  But if you don’t find your match, better to be single than in a crappy relationship or to be alone in between “sex dates”

          Good luck in your search.

           

  8. 8
    SAL9000

    So I learned three days ago a woman I dated twice got engaged in May. She is a 9+ – tall, leggy, marathoner, part Asian, mid 30s, nice job, and there is no woman in the history of the world that looks better in a pair of jeans. The guy she is engaged to I thought was her an uncle or something – he looks to be about 50, thinning hair, has a paunch + good 30 lbs extra, sagging chin line, not a good dresser, and just not that good looking. The engagement pics look awkward. He’s a corporate attorney.

     

    She was high on self-centeredness, maintenance and flakiness, and low on accountability, self-awareness, and thoughtfulness. Luckily she wasn’t crazy, mean or psycho (she self-styled herself as a “free spirit”). Most men date a few of these women in their lifetimes, and though it’s quite a ride and thrill dating woman everyone is looking at as you walk down the street or enter a room full well knowing it is YOU that are going to spend the night with her, but at the end of the day, the anxiety-filled roller coaster ride is simply not worth it if you have your wits about you.

     

    So it wasn’t quite adding up for me as I never saw or heard FB evidence they were dating or engaged. I stalked a bit and searched for pictures of her tagged by others and sure enough she showed up on his FB page. A LOT. He had the formal FB engagement announcement and all the rest of it. A LOT. Her page? Nothing alluding to him or the engagement. Perhaps she had those posts and pictures on some sort of private setting but I’m not so sure – why make it private when you post most everything else about your life – travel, parties, vacations, etc., isn’t? Something’s not right there.

     

    Anyway, that’s more of a vent than anything, but it’s a trend I’ve noticed. Men who end up dating way up tend to have $$$ to attract them and the lack of confidence/experience/self-awareness to know that the roller coaster ride isn’t worth it. We last dated ~18 months ago so not a lot of time to change one’s life – perhaps she did pare down to a great extent the “free spirit” stuff but my hunch is not. Either way I hope they both have their issues ironed out and can make it work.

    1. 8.1
      popee

      There is a reason women gravitate towards wealthier men esp. in our mid-30s: they can afford to give us children. Meaning this woman would be able to become a stay-at-home mom if she wanted if she settles with a well-to-do man. Don’t underestimate that. It makes a HUGE difference.

      Men who are great providers will attract “hot” women. Because “hot women” in our 30s know our fertility levels are declining fast and we may want children just as fast.

      1. 8.1.1
        SAL9000

        Oh, yes, I full well understand the visible dynamic. Lots of men are well-to-do but not all men however want a “hot” (read: high maintenance, self-absorbed, etc.) stay-at-home mom as a gf/wife. (I started a sabbatical/retirement ~2 years at age 40 ;).)

        1. icecreamcake

          Btw, how “well-to-do” are we talking?  Six figures is now middle-class.

        2. JennLee

          If you think 6 figures is middle class, you are out of touch.  The median income is about 45K household income.  Middle class is not 6 figures.  Very few people actually make 6 figures.

    2. 8.2
      Sandra

      I think there is no evidence on her FB page because she primarily views the marriage as a necessity or business transaction.  She may not even mentally or emotionally be in it for the long haul either.  Just to get what she needs  and that’s it.   There may even be very little romance involved  ( at least for her ) but he is blindsided .  You never really know.

      1. 8.2.1
        SAL9000

        My hope is that she simply has all that evidence under stricter privacy settings (but even then, that would be telling). I can’t help feel sorry for the guy. I hope I’m getting it all totally wrong for his sake, and everything is just dandy.

    3. 8.3
      icecreamcake

      Cool, do you know how they met?  Online or real life?

      1. 8.3.1
        JB

        Hey Sal, corporate attorney’s make big bucks that’s the crux of that situation. I have an ex girlfriend who’s now dating a lawyer that looks like George Costanza. I’m sure she loves telling everyone “but he’s a L A W Y E R”….lol

      2. 8.3.2
        SAL9000

        No, I do not. My hunch is not online. Sounds terrible but I can’t imagine he’d ever have a good profile. The “dating up” situations in my experience are borne from IRL dating, as she can assess his wealth, standing, power, etc., much easier/truthfully than from an online profile.

        1. icecreamcake

          So I guess we find our “leagues” online.

    4. 8.4
      Contender

      And yet, you dated her twice.

      1. 8.4.1
        SAL9000

        Ha ha hell yes I did!!!

        1. Joe

          I guess you liked the ride and the thrill the first time, but not enough the second. 😉

    5. 8.5
      CC

      Good vent, I appreciate your honesty. She’s chasing money, he’s after sex, they are cutting a deal. This is the saddest aspect of dating I think, that you definitely see that people think about it as “the deal”. Old fashioned emotional connection is out the window, it’s all about how your relationship benefits you and adds to your life, rather than the pure enjoyment of being with someone who laughs at the same stuff and likes the same soup. We are consumeristic in life and in our relationships too now. Online dating is the new J.Crew catalogue and strikes people’s brains as a shopping spree. They won’t last. Be glad you escaped a narcissist and count your lucky stars.

      1. 8.5.1
        Stacy

        CC, I agree.

  9. 9
    Simone

    EMK, you could work on getting a Harley, tattoos, and guns. I can kinda see that. That way you can diversify into giving dating advice to biker chicks. “Understand biker men. Find biker love.” I can totally see this.

  10. 10
    Suzanne

    There is a real assumption women are able to put aside attractiveness, especially sexual attractiveness, to land a man. I must be in the minority because when I meet a man something has to move down there`by the third date for me to consider dating him beyond that.

    I am not even talking physical attractiveness here, because there are other traits that are sexy, especially humour. But if I have no sexual attraction to a man, I can’t be bothered regardless of how nice of a guy he is. Sure, he may be able to give you a good life, but if I don`t want to sleep with him, that is a huge issue. I can`t lie there and fake it.

    I don’t understand women who marry just for money and security. How do they sleep with these men? I`d rather work three jobs.

    1. 10.1
      icecreamcake

      Suzanne, I am completely with you.  And I don’t think we’re a minority.

    2. 10.2
      Sandra

      I think either some of these women don`t care about sex much to begin with, or do it as little as they can get away with.

    3. 10.3
      Gabri'el

      Suzanne, Icecream Cake, and Sandra, I don’t think you are in the minority, I believe that the whole women don’t care about looks thing is a hollywood myth. Both men and women care about looks and body.

       

      My guess is, like all myth, this one has a foundation is truth. I have learned from this blog that women look for better versions of themselves while men just look for a physically better version of themselves short-term, then adding someone who makes them feel wanted long-term (SAL9000 above stalking his Hot ex who he admits is a difficult person to date, is an example of this).

      Of course we are talking about age here. Most girls my age or younger only go after the Hot guys as well. I don’t think women start looking for other qualities until they grow older, while it seems we men don’t.

      So my guess is, most women above 35 years old, will choose the average looking (not ugly) guy, who treats her right, has a good, stable job over the Hot bad boy, who cheats, lives with a roommate, is always broke or borrowing money, and can’t keep a job for more than a few weeks. While most men, don’t care what a women makes, and to some degree, he doesn’t care how bad her personality is, as long as she is Hot (a body and face he can brag to his friends about).

      In my opinion older women date with the long-term goal in mind, while men of all ages date in the moment. So, Yes! Women want the Hot, sexy man, but he has to have more than just looks, and I think women compromise some what on looks so that she can check her other boxes for a long-term mate.

      But unlike the hollywood movies, I have NEVER seen a woman date a guy who is more than maybe 2 or 3 points below herself in the looks department, and even in those situations he has more to bring to the table over all then she does. Mostly all women like yourselves, won’t be with a guy if the though of kissing or having sex with him, makes her feel sick or feel nothing at all.

      1. 10.3.1
        McLovin

        Oddly enough, I just read a study stating that the very happiest relationships (for both partners) are those in which the female is notably more attractive than the male.

    4. 10.4
      Stacy

      Suzanne,

      I agree with you but only concerning myself.  My boyfriend is a 9+ physically – just gorgeous. He has a good job but far from wealthy. I will take that anyday because I can make my own money. Plus, I need to want to have sex with my man/husband and no amount of ‘imagination’ will do it for me.

      But, I think a lot of women can make the exception.

      1. 10.4.1
        Suzanne

        I agree. I have friends who’ve made the exception. I don’t even think it’s about looks. The men I date are usually good looking, have great jobs. But they are often full of themselves and talk incessantly about their achievements and never ask questions about me. They couldn’t care, it seems. I find that to be a turn off. I suppose a lot of men do this, so the pool I will have to pick from will be small. But humility is a sexy trait.

        The last guy who asked me out had a boogey hanging from his nose.

         

    5. 10.5
      Joe

      There’s always the pool boy or the yoga instructor…

    6. 10.6
      CC

      Right on Suzanne. It’s called living authentically. I agree, the chemistry isn’t about classic good looks, it can be simple stuff like the way the communicate, their own vulnerability and their authenticity. Why oh why are men so darned appealing? Life would be easier as a lesbian, I’m convinced.

  11. 11
    Rebecca

    Wow.  I’m dating a man who is rapidly losing his hair, some 50-60 pounds above the weight his doctor would like him to be, and considerably wealthier than me.  Does that mean people who see us on the street are making this obnoxious calculation that slim women settle for dumpy guys as long as they have money?  Why does it have to be that simplistic?

    I’m physically fit ’cause I like how I feel when I work out; he’s a gifted musician ’cause he likes how he feels when he’s singing.  I wouldn’t be dating him if he weren’t distractingly attractive; pretty sure he wouldn’t bother with me if I didn’t turn him on; and neither of us seems concerned that the other won’t be getting a modeling contract any time soon.  I’m probably too shallow to date someone who is digging himself into debt, but the difference between responsibly frugal and price-is-no-obstacle doesn’t matter to me.  I do care that he’s good to me, that he’s completely trustworthy, that he teases playfully not disrespectfully.  I care that he’s a fabulous father, that he’s fascinating conversation, that we share many of the same values.  Certainly physical attraction is necessary to any relationship that’s not in the friend zone, but doesn’t sexual market value have to include some consideration of whether you want to be with your partner when you’re not in bed?!?

    1. 11.1
      JennLee

      Who cares what those other people think?  Who has your back, your man, or those people?  If he is a good man, give him all your love, and screw what other people think.  Just because a couple look idyllic does not mean they are happy, or that both of them are good people.

      1. 11.1.1
        McLovin

        “Who cares what those other people think?”

        Women do, Jenn. And I’d say what other people think, especially what other women think, drives a lot of their choices.

         

        Sad, really.

        1. Karmic Equation

          I actually agree with you, McLovin. Hypergamy in women is based on a “mine is bigger than yours” mentality. Only the “bigger” is not about sexual equipment, but rather how rich, how tall, how status’d, or how good looking (if he is not rich or status’d) the guy she’s dating is.

        2. CC

          When I said that about men, you jumped down my throat, McLoving. Your double standard is really hanging out in the breeze for everyone to see.

    2. 11.2
      CC

      It’s great that you found happiness by accepting you man “as is”. That’s how it should be. I’m just saying, men rarely do the same. If you are 5-6 pounds over and a woman, you better not expect the same considerations! Am I the only one who is aware of the pervasive sexism in dating? Holy COW!

      1. 11.2.1
        Evan Marc Katz

        CC, you ever hear the adage that men marry women and want them to stay the same as they were when they got married, while women marry men and hope that those men change over time? Believe me, men are perfectly good at accepting women – including women who are 5lbs overweight. Open your eyes. Most married couples don’t look like models and married couples, overall, are about 15lbs heavier than the single population. You seem to have an axe to grind with someone – like you’re just looking for someone to call sexist – but it shouldn’t be me.

  12. 12
    CC

    You have got it wrong Evan. I think your advice is good for the “conditions” of dating. I see you as empowering women to come from a position of what they would like rather than accepting what does not work. I read you because you are the only dating coach that doesn’t rely on ‘rules” of time and encourages women to use their intuition and read the situation not just days and months Jeesh, every one is so touchy about this subject, though. I do not have an axe to grind, I just need to see the conditions of my culture to avoid thinking it is me and to know what I’m dealing with, and you are doing the same when you tell women to leave a man that is not good for them. You do more to help women avoid guys who are just players and emotionally damaged and dishonest than any of the other sites. But let’s be real: men are responsible for a lot of the problems in our culture, they are more prone to violence and crime and that does not come from nowhere! And it also carries over into relationships in the form of control and domination, sometimes subtle, sometimes overt. Hey guys I’m not making this up! It IS harder for women, we have to consider our safety (men can physically hurt women a lot easier than the other way around). I was on a first date and the guy said he wanted to hug me, I went to hug him, he picked me up and squeezed me so hard he broke my rib! I’m petite, five feet one inch and 110 lbs, and he was over six feet tall. This guy teaches college, so he’s not an idiot! Your argument Evan when you say to look at married couples only proves that good guys want to get married and they don’t need supermodels. WE are talking about the guys in the dating pool…..THIS is a different type of man. Married people are heavier because they found someone to care about who they are and can relax.   Men who can’t find that “perfect fit” in a woman for years and years are not those guys. Not to mention that many of the men who date for years don’t want commitment ever, that’s why they are still single. They want to go from woman to woman, wasting the woman’s time and getting sex without providing anything emotionally. Well, I guess my rosy glasses are off, and I have tried to make connections, but I do see women accepting treatment that many dogs would not be happy with in order to avoid being alone, and OF COURSE I don’t think this is all men. But I do think the nice ones like you Evan did get married and like their wives. You are not the standard of the dating pool, believe me on this one.

    1. 12.1
      Danielle

      CC, I totally agree with yr every word!!!

    2. 12.2
      McLovin

      ” But let’s be real: men are responsible for a lot of the problems in our culture, they are more prone to violence and crime and that does not come from nowhere! And it also carries over into relationships in the form of control and domination, sometimes subtle, sometimes overt.”

       

      Aaaaaaand there it is. Men don’t like women who hate men, CC.

      1. 12.2.1
        CC

        You have zero objectivity McLovin and you don’t really offer opinions of your own, you seem to mostly want to criticize others. I would respectfully request you not comment on my opinions as you are making this far too personal and it is uncomfortable for me to dislike somebody this much.

        1. McLovin

          I suppose if I hated an entire gender, it would be uncomfortable for me to have it pointed out, also. So I can empathize with you there.

           

          So here in this comment, you’re back in victim mode, after savagely attacking me, Evan and men at large.

           

          I’m not trying to criticize, I couldn’t honestly care less what you do or think.

           

          I just find the mix of pathologies interesting.

  13. 13
    Rebecca Jackson

    So many things in this thread that just irk me!

    Yes, I’m a woman and I do care what other people think.  If random strangers on the street are judging my boyfriend as unattractive, that’s insulting, and if they’re judging me as a gold-digger, that’s insulting, too.  Honestly, I have no reason to believe this is going on, but the discussion on here seems to take it as an article of faith that when you see a woman who is more model-esque with a man who is more wealthy, that must be the reason they’re together.  Maybe Donald Trump’s weird hair and presidential aspirations really get Melania’s motor running – what do I know?  If I had a friend say of my boyfriend that I can do better?  We probably wouldn’t be friends much longer, any more than I’d stay with my boyfriend if he were in the habit of dissing my friends.

    I’m mystified by the poster who concluded that women weren’t responding to him online probably because of his height.  Even given that some women set up height screens – I’m aware that that’s true – isn’t it also true that lots of shorter-than-average men get dates?  I went out with some of them.  One guy wrote to me on Plenty of Fish a second time before I’d even seen his first message, whining that I hadn’t responded to him because he didn’t have enough money.  Needless to say, I read his messages and was unimpressed, but his income was not the cause of my disinterest, he just decided to blame that.

    For the record, the middle 50% of U.S. households in 2014 made between $25,600 and $94,700 so six figures is solidly in the top quarter and is as uncommon as earning less than $25K.  You can query this stuff on census.gov

    Here’s my experience with attractiveness and dating and sexism:  I think I’m pretty average looking – maybe a 5 or a 6 if I accept that demeaning scale that reduces each of us to a single number.  Men rarely hit on me on the street and I’m not the girl you go up to at the bar.  When I was on Plenty of Fish,  I claimed to have an athletic build and had a matching height and weight  – I suppose that was a point in my favor – and I posted pictures that showed me to be 45-years-old – I suppose that was a point against me.  Despite my middling looks and middle age, I got messages from a dozen new men a day.  None of the men I went out with were significantly different from their profiles, none were bad company, and none pressured me for sex.  Speed dating further convinced me that men aren’t all as shallow as their rep.  At the start of the evening, nobody paid much attention to me – like I said, I don’t have the kind of looks that draw you in.  But I am sincerely interested in people and I was able to quickly make those forced conversations flow naturally.  At the midway break, literally every man I’d spoken to so far followed me when I went outside to get some fresh air, while a couple of the very pretty, impeccably made up, and attractively dressed women compared notes in the bathroom about how all the guys sucked.  EMK says men aren’t just about the physical, they’re about how you make them feel, and I can’t think of any better way to explain how that night played out.  Men are shallow, women are shallow, and maybe we’re shallow about different things, but this study really rings true to me – very few of us remain that shallow once we start a conversation.

    My last little rant.  After my divorce, I avoided men for years until I fell for a co-worker.  He was no taller than me and, like me, at no risk of starting a modeling career, but he inspired a year-long string of x-rated dreams.  One night he made a sarcastic comment about being better looking than Tom Cruise and George Clooney; I agreed with him UNsarcastically; and he shrugged it off as a dishonest kindness.  I don’t deny that Cruise and Clooney are beautiful; I just thought Mark was, too, and wouldn’t have preferred that he look like a Hollywood sex symbol.  Maybe I’m being naive, but I don’t think my boyfriend would prefer that I look like Emma Stone.  He seems pleased with plain old me.

    McLovin, I’d love to read that happiest relationships are female notably more attractive than male study.  Any idea where I can find it?

    Off my soapbox.

    1. 13.1
      Josie

      Well said.  Men assume that you are declining based on bias.  If I dismiss a man before a first date (or after a meet and greet), it’s nearly always unrelated to the physical appearance of the man, or his wealth and status, but rather incompatibility of lifestyle.

      A slightly overweight but clearly marriage minded guy I dated a couple weeks ago might have said that I refused a second date due to his appearance and dress.  We had a pleasant conversation, and shared a few interests, but his statements about “hating to have to work for anyone” and desire to ditch his career and make it on “get rich quick” house flipping schemes was a turn off.  I muddled over it before I decided that our lifestyles were incompatible.

      As an educated woman, it’s possible I can meet a man who has an associates or has not finished his BA, and that he will be a good conversationalist who can discuss articles in the NY Times.  I don’t totally discount those guys (heck, my own dad is well read and intellectual, yet did not finish his BA).  I generally give them a chance if the profile indicates some intellectual capacity.  But in today’s economy, not having a BA or BS at least is also a real impediment in many fields.

      I dated a chef for several years and having a social life and home life together was near impossible due to conflicting hours, with my 8-5 schedule conflicting with his 5 to 11 PM schedule which included weekends.  So my declining a “hospitality” biz guy isn’t a sign of snobbery, but rather recognizing inherent incompatibility.

       

    2. 13.2
      Curt

      “I’m mystified by the poster who concluded that women weren’t responding to him online probably because of his height.  Even given that some women set up height screens – I’m aware that that’s true – isn’t it also true that lots of shorter-than-average men get dates?  I went out with some of them.  One guy wrote to me on Plenty of Fish a second time before I’d even seen his first message, whining that I hadn’t responded to him because he didn’t have enough money.  Needless to say, I read his messages and was unimpressed, but his income was not the cause of my disinterest, he just decided to blame that.”

      I assume you are referring to me. You’re right, it may not have been my height that turned them off. And I fully agree that how you make someone feel is the most important thing, but I find with online dating that, at least in my case, it’s difficult to make people feel anything, so it ends up mostly being about the pictures and the description if they bother to read it.

      Every women I’ve ever dated has been taller than me, but at 5’2″, nearly all of them are, even if it’s just by an inch or two. When it’s come to online dating though, I’ve only ever gotten one date. Of the women who have bothered to respond to me, several of them have explicitly stated that I’m too short to bother getting to know, and others responded by admitting that they thought I was handsome but hadn’t read my profile. When they asked if I was actually as tall as I said in my profile (I told the truth), they thought I was joking. When I assured them that I preferred to be honest and that it was my real height, they stopped responding to my messages.

      So, yes, I’ve gotten dates, but online dating has not been a help in that area. I do not blame women for their preferences and it may very well be that something else in my profile was keeping my inbox pretty empty, but given the evidence, it seems height may have been a major factor.

      I’ll iterate again that I agree that how you make people feel is important, but online dating makes it difficult to make someone feel anything, which is why it’s so easy to “next” someone if they don’t immediately strike someone as “perfect.”

      1. 13.2.1
        Rebecca

        I concede I’m surprised that so many women were overt about being disinterested because of your height.  So maybe the guy who chewed me a new a$$hole for being disinterested in his income had a track record of women telling him “sorry, you’re not rich enough.”

        Maybe I’m the deluded one, failing to see bias when it’s real.  Most of the men I’ve dated have been taller than I am; most of the men I’ve dated have made more money than I make; and my mom once accused me of having a racial bias because I’d dated more white men than black.  In all of those I was inclined to assume it was just the numbers game: men, on average, are taller than women; men, on average, make more money than women; and the majority race in the U.S. is still Caucasian.  But who knows, maybe there was some unconscious bias operating there, too.

    3. 13.3
      McLovin

      Really good and sincere comment, Rebecca. You seem like a genuine person. If you’ve read any of my comments here, I’m a grizzled veteran of the online gender wars.

       

      http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/16/happy-relationship-studies_n_4613060.html

       

      Another interested article I just read was about the happiest and unhappiest people in America based on sociological surveys.

      Unhappiest class of people: Mid-40’s, high-income women, never married and no kids.

      Happiest class: Mid-40’s, middling income men, married with 2.3 kids and a dog.

       

      If you just felt the ground shake, it was Andrea Dworkin rolling over in her oversized coffin.

  14. 14
    Takara

    I have followed a few posts from this site, and I see that you think you are taking a straight talk stance. Duly noted. I think you put people down and decrease their self esteem, namely women’s. No one can help how they look to much of a degree. Sure, you can work out and plaster on make up, but really, that only goes so far. The funny thing to me is the fact (the glaring fact) that we all have been patrons of the box stores and local supermarkets, and tell me how many booty butt ugly people do you see with a husband/wife/gf/bf? Plenty. Grain of salt, like most stuff you read online. Real life attention to one’s surroundings shows us all what’s real.

      1. 14.1.1
        Takara

        Guy, I’m not taking anything from you. You found a niche and you are clearly successful and good on you, my friend. However, what helps one will not help another. I actually first found your site when I was googling “why do men look at other women?”. I got sucked in, read a few postings from you, your supporters and those who have opinions similar to mine. You have an entertaining website. I’m truly glad you have helped those people. They sure look genuine and happy. None of that detracts from the tone of many of your posts that in my ever so humble opinion, lean towards evo psych-ish territory and can more of less be summed up with, “Men can’t help but do this or that, no matter how unnerving you ladies may find this…it’s male behavior so deal. But the good news is, I’m here to help for a fee.” Sorry if that bugs you, but my gut is rarely wrong.

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          Takara, you and everyone else in the world thinks her gut is rarely wrong. So that doesn’t mean much to me.

          Unfortunately for you, I’ve never read any evo psych, so you’re off right there.

          But more importantly, I’m not sure what you’re arguing with. When I write, “Men can’t help but be attracted to other women,” what part of that do you disagree with? What exactly would you do to explain the fact that men are, as anyone can tell, somewhat visual, with a particular proclivity for youth, beauty, symmetry and curves? How is OBSERVING this incorrect? So you are 100% right – this site is not a primer about how to “change men” since it’s not your job or my job to change them.

          What I do is attempt to explain WHY men are the way they are – lay out a foundation between behaviors that are acceptable and unacceptable – and allow women to make healthier relationship choices with this information. You seem to think that a dating coach for women should have “changing the male gender” as a job description.

          I stand by my work and remain puzzled as to what you think I should do differently.

  15. 15
    Takara

    Nope. I actually have no interest in changing males or anyone but myself. I came looking (hopefully) for some tips to help me out, and I just feel worse after reading a lot of stuff here. It’s all good. Like I said, you have your niche. I don’t get where I suggested you need to do something different. LOL, do what you do. Your banner up there under the posts specifically ask for feedback after each entry. They do not specify that the feedback must be only from people who agree with you.

    1. 15.1
      Curt

      Takara, why exactly is it that you feel worse after reading the advice given here? What exactly were you hoping to read? What tips do you want? Evan gives women clear suggestions on how to avoid ending up in heartbreaking situations with men who are not good for them. Are those free tips not enough to help you start building the right relationships today?

      I can’t really tell, but it seems from your posts that you were expecting a certain type of answer and when you didn’t find it, you didn’t want to learn anything else.

      That’s your choice, but if you want to understand men, I don’t think you could have found a better coach than Evan. He is but one man and is human, but his advice is tempered by years and years of dating experience and years of marriage. He has an idea of what he’s talking about. If you follow him, the worst that could happen is that you remain in the same situation you’re already in. Best case scenario, you come out with improved relationships.

      1. 15.1.1
        Takara

        Maybe there are some valid points that he makes. I gave him props for that. Maybe I can see how some of it is true, and if so, what is the use of trying anymore? Evidently, men only want the best women who look like the airbrushed magazine models and what not. Evidently, no matter how much better we actually look than the average female in our demographic means jack, because most men are just going to ogle other females anyway and make us feel like a doggie mound…and they can’t help it because they’re men. I mean, if you could think about this from a woman’s perspective who sees all that culture (media, ads, mags, internet, TV, etc)  puts in the heads of both men and women and how much stress is on us as female human beings to look like something ‘more’ than ourselves at every moment…maybe you could feel where I am coming from. Then, it seems we STILL aren’t quite enough for a man even if we are thin and in fantastic shape and perhaps, genetically blessed with some aspects of our appearance. Our Dear Advice Giver has said (paraphrasing) even if a male is on some level ‘committed’ (married, bf/gf or whatever), they STILL just have to watch naked women, women at the checkout line, etc…then why?  Why even try?

         

        I’m actually married, and have been married for 10 years. I catch my husband looking at women from time to time and no, I do not like it. I thought maybe this dude had some tips on speaking to him about this in a constructive fashion. What I was to discover however, was that I (as a human being, forget my bottom parts for a moment) should just accept that is part of ‘maleness’, essentially, and soldier on. Oh, and I should still see my husband as good after this because he’s not doing scummy things like beating me or running the streets. How dare I feel slighted about clearly not being good enough for the man that promised to love me all my days and treat me with respect. I suppose I should appreciate free comedy when I come across it. A good amusement for not even a two pence is rare these days.

        I put in a good deal of physical effort to look good and no, my overweight husband does not reciprocate. Guess whose BMI is 17.8 and whose is 36.9 in our relationship? Guess who tries to help their partner get better despite their flaws? Guess who loves them unconditionally and does not gawk at hotter specimens in their presence? And now, guess who does not care about their appearance (clearly) and disrespects their mate in public by glancing at others?

        You’re darn right I do not appreciate the advice I found here. I work too hard and I know I look beyond decent and many men around here would love for their wife or gf to put in as much work as I do, I see the stares I get, but my own man can’t respect me. It’s just too much.

        1. Curt

          I can understand where you’re coming from, and this is something you should perhaps discuss with your husband in a constructive manner.

          But I really have to agree with Evan. I look at women frequently, and I am currently single, so perhaps I can be forgiven. I do not “gawk” at other women, I simply glance. I, however, am in love with a woman, and should the opportunity arise, I would gladly forget every woman I’ve ever seen to start a life with her.

          The important thing is that your husband, in all likelihood, loves you, and though he may look at other women, you’re most likely the only one he really wants.

          Here is a video that I think might put things into perspective. Whether you believe it or not is up to you. The video is but one perspective and you can take it with a grain of salt, but I feel that it holds true for me and many other men I know.

           

        2. Not Jerry

          Takara,

          Men appreciate women, and will look at the female people surrounding him. You just have to learn to live with that.

          And guess what? As long as your husband is home in bed with you every night, it’s all good, at least as far as that goes.

          I just don’t think there is anything at all you can say to hubby that will stop him from having eyes and using them, even in a “constructive fashion”.

          If he does not love and appreciate you and all you do for him, (as you allege) then I feel sorry for you.  Does he have any good points?  Make a list of as many good things about him that you can.

          You sound like you have some resentment and animosity toward your husband. If that’s so, that may condemn your relationship.

          You have a choice to make.  You get to decide if you are out of there, filing for divorce, or whether you are going to stay around and make the best of it.  If your list of his good points is long, you might have some perspective there.

          You have a decision to make. But depending on what you decide, will you be happy then?  That’s what you must decide for yourself.

          FWIW your situation sounds like mine. Divorce was a long time coming.  I don’t associate with the ex, but I seriously doubt she has the capacity for happiness.  I am not that unhappy, but being single after being married so long is definitely lonely.

          All I can do at this point is to try to be the best me I can be.  And that is a lifelong struggle as you can imagine. I have successes where some people actually notice my self-improvement and compliment me on them.

          And like most people I do have failures. It will be a struggle I will take to my grave, at least part of it.

        3. N

          Takara,

          This blog is not the place for all your anger, resentments, discontent on your marriage. I suggest to get a marriage counselor (if you don’t already have one) and communicate what you just wrote. Goodluck.  Nic

        4. Evan Marc Katz

          Maybe I can see how some of it is true, and if so, what is the use of trying anymore? Because you’d rather share a life and be in love than not share a life and be in love.

          Evidently, men only want the best women who look like the airbrushed magazine models and what not. Evidently, no matter how much better we actually look than the average female in our demographic means jack, because most men are just going to ogle other females anyway and make us feel like a doggie mound…and they can’t help it because they’re men. Except for the fact that when you ACTUALLY look around at married couples, in the mall, on the bus, in the airport, nobody actually looks like an airbrushed model. So out of the 50,000,000 married men, how many do you think are holding out for that? You got it – not many.

          Our Dear Advice Giver has said (paraphrasing) even if a male is on some level ‘committed’ (married, bf/gf or whatever), they STILL just have to watch naked women, women at the checkout line, etc…then why? Why even try?
          Because there is a big difference between a guy who glances at a huge pair of breasts (the same as, frankly, any woman would) and a guy who follows that woman through the parking lot, there’s a difference between a guy who jerks off to online porn when his wife is out of town and a guy who is a porn addict and destroyed his own sex life. You don’t seem to be making any distinction between a normal guy with eyes and a lecherous pig. I do.

          I thought maybe this dude had some tips on speaking to him about this in a constructive fashion. What I was to discover however, was that I (as a human being, forget my bottom parts for a moment) should just accept that is part of ‘maleness’, essentially, and soldier on. Oh, and I should still see my husband as good after this because he’s not doing scummy things like beating me or running the streets. Once again, it sounds to me like you were looking for validation that your husband is a scumbag. That brings up a bunch of questions, like “Why would you marry a guy you know to be a scumbag?” “Did he suddenly start noticing women ten years into your marriage or was he always this way?” “Why is it so hard to understand that a man can find another woman attractive, not act on it, and be a great husband?” “Unless he’s a porn addict or publicly embarrassing you with his pursuit of other women, why does him noticing other women hurt you so much?”

          Guess who disrespects their mate in public by glancing at others? Sounds to me like you made up a rule – a man who notices other women is disrespectful – and you live your life as if this rule is 100% true. What I am calmly pointing out is that this is YOUR made-up rule. I was watching True Detective with my wife last night. She has a crush on Colin Farrell. I will never look like Colin Farrell. I am not worried that my wife is going to run off with Colin Farrell, threatened by the fact that he is empirically cuter or more successful, nor upset by the fact that she acknowledged this. If there were a similar looking guy at a party, I would probably tell my wife, “Hey honey, he’s cute… go over and take a look!” All because I’m secure in my relationship and not threatened by others’ looks. So you can blame women’s magazines, you can blame your husband, you can blame me, and you can deflect everything I wrote here, but the fact remains that “glancing at another woman” is not infidelity, nor is it inherently disrespectful (unless there was some disrespectful action on top of the glance).

          I think you will find that you will get along a lot better in the world if you take what I say to heart, address your insecurities, and have an adult discussion without attacking him.

          You seem to have a lot of anger around this issue and I’m afraid I can’t take more time to give free advice to someone who doesn’t appreciate it, doesn’t like me, and doesn’t seem to want to learn.

        5. McLovin

          All those things you just listed, Takara, are problems with you, your insecurities and your emotions and have little, if anything, to do with your husband and what he does or doesn’t do.

    2. 15.2
      Evan Marc Katz

      Takara, I’m sorry if you think that the job of advice is to make you feel better. If that were the case, the only good advice in the world would be telling you what you want to hear. My loyalty is only to what I perceive to be reality. And here in reality, some guys talk to exes, some guys have a checkered past, some guys are insecure, some guys are selfish, and some guys watch porn. And believe it or not, not all of those guys are bad. Again, you can let me know when I say something untrue, but I’m pretty sure I haven’t yet. So basically, your criticism is that my advice doesn’t make you feel good because it acknowledges the flaws of men but doesn’t blame them or try to change them.

      Yep, that’s about right.

      And, your feedback doesn’t have to be positive. It does have to make some logical sense or offer something constructive. The only reason I’m responding is because you said this in your initial post: “I see that you think you are taking a straight talk stance. Duly noted. I think you put people down and decrease their self esteem, namely women’s.” And since that’s not true and this is my website, I took the time to rebut your claim.

      Good day, ma’am.

      1. 15.2.1
        Rebecca

        Honestly, EMK, your original posts are always interesting and thought provoking, even if I don’t agree with everything you say.  But your responses within the threads are often among the most defensive, sarcastic or full of personal attacks.  Maybe there’s something to be said for taking what rings true in your readers’ posts to heart, and letting the rest just help you understand where our emotions become overwhelming.

        1. Karmic Equation

          You still don’t get it, Rebecca.

           

          It is not up to others to understand and cater to your overwhelming emotions.

           

          Until YOU understand that your emotions are yours, and yours alone (perhaps with a therapist when necessary), to manage — will you be able to sustain a happy, healthy relationship with a man.

           

          As long as you are a “victim” of others’ “lack of” understanding, you will never be happy. Why? Because your happiness is at the mercy of others and not under your own control. Only others can make you happy. Why do you want to live in a world like that?

        2. Evan Marc Katz

          If my posts are defensive, it’s probably because the comments were offensive. If my posts attack, it’s because I’ve been attacked.

          I can assure you that I don’t go to strangers and verbally assault their character the way I’m routinely assaulted.

        3. Not Jerry

          EMK, it’s just the way blogging is.

          If you don’t write with clarity, or even if you do, someone will misunderstand, mischaracterize what you said and be on the attack.

          It happens all the time on blogs.

          It serves as a deterrent if you don’t write with clarity, to be sure. I’ve been blogging a lot longer than most, and I still have that happen.  Here, a few days ago.   I say this, she said I said that.  Which I didn’t say.  Like my ex used to do!  Heh.

           

        4. Rebecca

          Huh?  The “our” emotions was just me including myself in the group of Evan’s readers.  I don’t think I am at the whim of other people’s emotions, and you’re right, I wouldn’t want to live like that.  When people stay stuff on here that strikes me as hostile, I tend to assume that somethat that got said got under their skin and that’s why they’ve resorted to the ad hominem attacks.  Forgive me if I’ve been guilty of _making_ ad hominem attacks – I sincerely thought I hadn’t.  And I think I’m in a happy, healthy relationship with a really good man.

      2. 15.2.2
        Takara

        I’d like to thank you for your time and consideration.

  16. 16
    CC

    Takara, seems like you are mad at Even because your man has no manners or respect for you and ogles other women when you’re around? Have you told your guy all this? Print out what you have written here and give it to your husband, or tell him in person if you haven’t expressed this, you have some valid points, but no one can change your husband’s behavior except you (Maybe). I do think men are addicted to the ogle, but they can keep it on the DL when they are with their woman, that’s just plain rude and inconsiderate and not acceptable. Tell that to your husband, he needs to accommodate your feelings or get a lecture from you. The rules of relationship must surely change some with the amount of time people spend together, you have the right to tell him what you expect when you two are together. What he does when you’re not  around..that he will probably not change.

    1. 16.1
      McLovin

      Gee, I can’t for the life of me understand why you struggle, CC.

       

      You sound like a regular barrel of fun.

      1. 16.1.1
        CC

        I respectfully request that you stop bullying me online McLovin. I want to participate without having to read your personal attacks. Would you please comply with that, I would really appreciate it. I get it, you don’t appreciate my viewpoint, noted. Now stop. I don’t like your opinions either. Let’s ignore each other? It’s the most adult and we won’t accomplish anything sharing. I actually get something out of these posts, it helps me expand my point of view but you are offensive to me and rather cruel.

        1. McLovin

          Evan makes the call on comments, CC. If he felt that I was “bullying” you (again you’re a victim), he surely would delete them.

           

          You’re not here to expand your point of view, CC, you’re here to spread a particular brand of bitterness, entitlement and man-hate. Of course it’s offensive to you, it brings the above into sharp relief.

           

          No, I will not let your toxic attitude go unanswered.

           

           

  17. 17
    N

    I don’t get the  “checking out” other women or men for that matter being an issue. Granted ogling is different from simply appreciating another person’s looks/physique. I’m a woman and check out other men. I was running at the park the other day, saw another runner must be 6’4″, six pack, chiseled upper body, strong-looking legs, must be 10-13% body fat (based on my x-ray vision 😉 LOL). Do I want to sleep with the hot runner? No. My boyfriend knows I appreciate great bodies men or women.

    And when my beau see a hot woman, he’d say she’s hot! And I’d say, according to my body scan she has 15-18% body fat! I totally agree she’s hot! We banter. We have fun. No issue appreciating attractive people whatsoever. We may be in a committed relationship but we aren’t blind.

    1. 17.1
      Takara

      Ok, that’s you.

      1. 17.1.1
        Karmic Equation

        Takara,

         

        If all you have to offer is looks, I can certainly understand why you are so indignant that your overweight husband dares to look at other women.

         

        However, if you had the confidence to know that you offer your husband MORE THAN just looks, you wouldn’t be hurt.

         

        I’m 20#s overweight, though luckily, I wear it well, so I don’t look that overweight. My bf is slim and fit because he has a manual job where he is exercising all day. There’s been at least one time I “caught” him admiring another woman. She was gorgeous. I didn’t blame him for looking. She was a gorgeous 20-something and I knew her. And once he could tear himself away from her vicinity, I smiled and said, “Oh that’s Sally. At a tournament several months ago, we both got ousted early so we spent the rest of the afternoon and into midnight shooting pool together while she waited for her bf to finish the tourney. She came by to ask me to shoot with her…to prevent guys from hitting on her.” And I chuckled as I related the story. I acknowledged his noticing of her, that she was hot, that she had a bf.

         

        And you know what he remembers most about that day? Not Sally the gorgeous. But that he has a girlfriend that doesn’t make a big deal out of nothing. Sally’s just another pretty face. There are lots of those in the world…but I’m the woman that makes he feel valued, accepted, and understood. If he’s stupid enough to trade all that in for a pretty face. He can go right ahead. It would be his loss. And I know this. And he knows this. That’s why I trust that he’s not going to do anything stupid to jeopardize our relationship.

         

        I have more to offer than just a pretty face and a hot bod. So I’m not going to feel threatened by said pretty face and hot bod.

        1. Takara

          Cool story.

        2. Karmic Equation

          Not a story, Takara. Real life.

           

          Unless you’re perfect, it’s hypocritical to expect a man to be perfect. Perhaps you’re physically fit, but it seems that you’re temperamentally shrewish. So he compromised by putting up with your shewishness because he’d rather have a pretty wife than a nice one. And you compromised by marrying a less-than-fit guy because he could provide for you.

           

          If your husband makes you that unhappy, divorce him and find a man who wants to make you happy (never looking at other women; one who goes to the gym, etc). If you can’t accept or tolerate your husband’s behaviors without resentment, you need to divorce him. It doesn’t matter who’s “right or wrong” or even if your resentment is justified. Once you start resenting and you recognize you can’t overcome that feeling, start looking for an exit strategy.

           

          If the other person changing is the only way (generic) you can be happy in the relationship, find another person to be in a relationship with. It’s that simple.

        3. Takara

          I have no idea where you inferred that “all I have to offer is looks” in my relationship. I did not give a resume of my qualifications here, neither did anyone else from what I read. It’s a comment section of a blog, not a HR website for a firm or the admissions office of a college or university. How you decided to go there was a mind blowing leap, but in any case…

          Whatever insecurities you harbor are not my problem because I shared some facts pertinent to my issue that I commented on. That you had to go there with a total stranger tells me that maybe you aren’t as together as you wish to market yourself. It wasn’t even that serious. My point was, I keep myself up, my man has no need to be staring at every woman that passes by, and yes, I made that clear to him and we understand each other.

           

          Thanks for your concern.

        4. Karmic Equation

          It wasn’t a leap or even an inference, Takara.

           

          All you mentioned was your looks and physical shape and his lack of physical shape. And other pretty women’s shape.

           

          There’s more to a person than their looks.

           

          I do happen to agree with you that OGLING is not cool. If that was what your man was doing, then you were right to let him know it bothers you.

           

          But here are the words YOU chose to describe his behavior in #15.1.1:

          -watch
          -looking-gawk
          -glancing

           

          None of those words imply “ogling” (I guess gawk is close, but gawk is “staring openly and stupidly” which is not the same as ogling, which is “stare at in a lecherous manner”).

           

          So yes, do change your story so you are “right” and not insecure. I responded to the sentiment in your original post, which is that you if YOU’re hot, how dare your out-of-shape husband look at someone less hot than you. He’s married, not blind, that’s why.

           

          And let’s go ad hominem too while you’re at it. Oh, yeah, you did that too.

        5. Takara

          Uh, you might want to dismount the steed of self righteousness Madame Karmic, as you have doled out numerous ‘ad hominems’ towards me (I suppose because I admit to being a small female…bad me). Did you forget where you called my behavior “shrewish”? Did you forget that you insinuated that I am just a “pretty face”? Did you develop sudden amnesia and forget that you insinuated (again) that I “settled” for a man to “provide” for me because I am this Miss Hot Thang that can’t pay my own bills of get my own degree? I don’t brandish my professional credentials on random internet blogs and chat rooms, dear, nor do I spend an inordinate amount of time online chastising perfect strangers because I am gainfully employed (surprise, there goes your Barbie doll theory about me). Also, that I expect my man to be ‘perfect’ just because I don’t appreciate him staring at women when he is out with me at the supermarket or where ever? Really?

          How laughable. That’s expecting perfection? By all means, my husband is indeed out of shape and overweight. Does it hurt to tell the truth of the matter? I still like him just fine, did you miss that part? It’s this one behavior that I take issue with. I was attempting to be relevant to the topic of this post as well, he is not all that “young and hot”, but he is an overall decent person and he treats me well with exception of this problem we have (hence, my quest to seek advice for it). I have no idea how I attracted your attention, but feel free to distance yourself from my posts if you just want to throw your OWN insecurities upon a safe interweb scapegoat.

          I think you should take a breather and check yourself. You don’t know me and I don’t know you.

        6. Karmic Equation

          Takara,

           

          I don’t think you understand what ad hominem attacks are:

          1. : appealing to feelings or prejudices rather than intellect. 2. : marked by or being an attack on an opponent’s character rather than by an answer to the contentions made.

           

          Re-read what I wrote instead of what you FELT I wrote. My words verbatim: Perhaps you’re physically fit, but it seems that you’re temperamentally shrewish.” — That’s not ad hominem as we weren’t in the midst of a debate, which is when ad hominem attacks happen. You can’t refute the argument, so name call the person making the argument. Neither mature nor intellectual. So yeah, no wonder you don’t post your professional credentials on the internet – Don’t blame you (meow!)

           

          Anyway, I never used the word “settle”. I used the word compromise. If that is one and the same to you, that’s probably partly why you’re so angry. I didn’t think you settled. If you felt you did, that would explain the anger, wouldn’t it? Even though you’re continuing to name call, I’m still trying to have an intellectual debate with you. I will stop, because that seems pretty futile as you’re arguing emotionally and not intellectually.

           

          FWIW, it’s cool your husband is trying to change his watching/looking/glancing/gawking at other women for you. Says a lot about your husband and your value to him.

      2. 17.1.2
        N

        Yes, that was me. Like I said, my beau and I are very much committed. But W.E. are not blind. 😎

    2. 17.2
      CC

      Everyone is different and has different needs. If it hurts Tamara for her man to act this way in front of her, he needs to stop. If my man told me that looking at other women hurt his feelings, I would stop. Hmmmm, Freud might have something to say about that.

      1. 17.2.1
        McLovin

        All people’s eyes are drawn to that which we find beautiful. To deny it is to deny human nature.

         

        This is not a problem with Takara’s husband, it’s a problem with her own self-image. Her emotions are not his responsibility. He is not required to renounce human nature to placate his insecure spouse.

        1. Takara

          I’d wager that what *you* are calling human nature is not necessarily that. It is what you co sign off upon, and therefore you defend it because you likely don’t care much to consider the other party’s feelings, only yours and you only support that viewpoint and those actions. All else, falls upon the injured party because they are “too sensitive”, “too needy” and “too emotional”. Human nature is many things, but universally, all men do not look at any and ever woman in a mini skirt that strolls by. *SOME* men do, and one could even argue that many men do, but not all. Most people (no gender) would *NOTICE* a skimpily clad person, or a person dressed in clown attire, male or female, that is in their viewing range, and to me that is indeed normal because it stands out. I get that, sure. But, to support men (or women) who *ogle* (going beyond noticing) others in the presence of their spouse/mate when they know it makes the other uncomfortable is what you are clearly suggesting and I find that incredibly tacky and tasteless. Color me surprised that you are on a dating blog looking for tips with the ladies. I’m very happy to report that my husband is meeting me halfway on this issue and he was honest with me. At least I have a real man.

  18. 18
    josie

    I feel strongly that Evan’s advice has been very useful to me in the process of dating as a SF in my later 30s.  Takara, you should read more of what Evan has written before casting aspersions.

    As for the People of WalMart couples your earlier post describes, well, those folks aren’t Evans target demographic and I would have to guess that their standards aren’t too high.  Those couples certainly are not proof of anything in my book.   I could put on my short shorts and hang out at a grungy bar  this evening and probably elicit a marriage proposal from a local bubba whose 4 kids and 3 dogs I would have to support.  For those single ladies with higher standards seeking compatibility and not a ride to the mud bog and a chunk of his SS disability check, we have to endure a more competitive dating scene.   Evan helps us to negotiate this and keep our dignity intact.

    I hope you all appreciate the humor-  I’m a professional woman from the South so it comes naturally….and it’s Friday before a dateless weekend ahead so humor is appreciated ….

     

     

    1. 18.1
      Takara

      Uh, I never mentioned “People of WalMart”. My point was, evidently, looking around, even the most crusty and busted of M.Sapiens Sapiens manages for find a mate to breed with/marry/etc. The premium placed on good looks is neither here nor there. A man from our version of reality stranded on a remote South Pacific island would quickly get over the fact that the women have twigs and bark in their hair and may be hygienically challenged compared to the women he was used to in the west if he wanted to get busy. Standards would change right quick after a few weeks or months, I would imagine. Of course, it’s not to such a degree of adjustment for most of us, but I think I made a valid point. You can want what you want, but when that’s not happening, you make do with the available options. That was it.

      1. 18.1.1
        Takara

        Sorry for the typo, meant H. Sapiens not M

      2. 18.1.2
        josie

        Takara, the issue is that online daters view profile after profile and see a sea of unending options.   No one is stranded on a desert island where they have to make do with whatever specimen of the opposite sex is available.  Instead, we are navigating online dating, where people believe they can be picky.  The environment where you are dating makes a huge difference- you see guys in a smaller town , where values are more traditional, opting for the slightly schlubby woman who wants to settle down there and have a family, versus the thin, beautiful but flighty, artsy gal who is unsettled in the small town.  Another example, I dated a well off man who for years had a high profile career working with a U.S. firm in Eastern Europe and had a hard time adjusting his dating standards once back in the U.S.  ( for years he had been surrounded by gorgeous women who  ” dated ” him despite his averageness, for the reasons you would expect ) .

        Online dating is itself its own culture in which expectations can be unreasonably high .

    2. 18.2
      CC

      Josie, A little uncomfortable with the classism, but kind of funny too. !!!

  19. 19
    Jordan

    A man who is a 2 – because he may be short, heavy, uneducated, unintelligent, unsuccessful, and insensitive – will probably not look in a mirror and see a 2. Chances are, he is attracted to (and feel like he “deserves”) a much more desirable woman than another 2.

    Reality will likely prove him wrong. And that’s when he needs to adjust his standards.

     

    Not if he doesn’t get lonely.

    1. 19.1
      McLovin

      Zzzzziiiinnnggg.

       

      Read a great comment on another blog, it was to the effect of: if it weren’t for testosterone, men probably couldn’t be bothered to even talk to women.

  20. 20
    CC

    Good bye all, thanks for your helpful comments and dialogue. This site just reminds me that people don’t always feel compelled to communicate in a respectful way and I have no interest in being accused of being a man hater when I’m on a site to learn better interaction in an emotionally charged situation like dating. There’s a way to say most anything without being cruel or mean, and not everyone here has mastered that or wants to. Have fun bullying people on the internet McLovin I have better things to do with my time.

    1. 20.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      My apologies, CC. My assistant polices this site, but she has erroneously let too many of McLovin’s insults through. Note that he is not alone – and that women insult men personally and routinely on here. I want to make this a safe space for everybody, but there are far too many personal and character attacks on BOTH sides. I’m all for a reasonable debate; it seems that very few people can conduct it without insults. We’ll keep working on it on your behalf.

    2. 20.2
      JennLee

      I totally get that men have been kicked in the balls by women, and many are very bitter because of it, but it does nobody any good to just lob insults at each other.  I would rather they talk about their frustrations, not just vent their anger.

      You should stick around CC.  It’s what a strong independent woman would do.

      Not all men are like Mclovin, and not all women are different than he is.  I don’t let guys like him bother me.  Plus, your comments here are valued, even if we don’t always agree.

       

       

       

       

      1. 20.2.1
        CC

        Thanks Evan and Jenn…Your comments helped a lot. I felt like spending some time on here was getting me to a new perspective on how to handle the disappointments of dating without taking it personally, and being criticized in such a personal way by “others” was not helping with that. I had a first date last week, it went well, he seemed interested, I used some of Evan’s stuff…all good…he said he wanted to take me to dinner. Then NOTHING. In the past, this would have hurt, frustrated, angered a bit, but this time…meh. He either met someone else, had second thoughts  and changed his mind, or some other explanation that I don’t have, but I only thought about it a couple times, and no HEARTACHE! Better perspective all around helps things go smoothly. I met a different guy online a month ago and he’s been stringing me along on “let’s meet” but then can’t commit to a time, postpones, etc. He wrote and said: Life is just too busy, thanks for being so patient but I can’t be social right now”. In the past I would have been upset, and maybe even sent a snarky note, this time: meh. I wrote and said “I figured as much, but thanks for your note, that was thoughtful”. Guess what? He wrote begging for another chance. Hehe. This new approach…….got something to it!

        1. Not Jerry

          Bravo, CC.  I love it!

           

  21. 21
    CC

    Thanks for the comments!. So, he took me to a fabulous Thai restaurant. Asked me why in the world was I single, attractive, smart, warm, friendly! I was like wow, this new Evan stuff is dynamite. I used the Evan advice, just stayed present in the moment, no scrutiny, no invasive stuff, two people meeting….casual. He actually (not making this up), told me the reason he just HAD to meet me was my response to the note. He said, “I was waiting for you to get pissed and send the angry FU note, and you were so understanding, I went “who is THIS woman?”. MmmmHmmmmm. I guess staying calm and letting things play out  is a good thing. Thanks Evan good advice.

  22. 22
    Cin

    After getting back into dating after 27 years, it’s interesting to read all of your comments. I’ve been online dating for a few months. I am 46, attractive, funny, intelligent, and many lovely things, of course, and I while I’ve had some success with online dating, it is true that the majority of guys that pursue me I don’t find attractive physically or in other ways. It isn’t just about being typically a 10 either, my longest relationship was with this guy who was funny, obviously intelligent, and had witty things to say on his profile, was physically maybe a 5, and I went for it, and we had a great connection despite his crazy pictures from the start, but there was something in his face that was appealing to me and his profile did the rest. Our first date lasted 11 hours- just talking! I do, of course, typically go for guys I find physically attractive- but the attractiveness isn’t always in physical features, it may be his pose or his smile, his eyes, the way he stands, the picture of him holding an orphan in Cambodia or something I can just tell intuitively that is attractive to me. Most of the time I’m right about this, and the conversations, the profiles tell me the rest. I am not skinny, young, and I don’t put pics up of my body, but the guys I’ve met online and then dated have found me very sexy and attractive despite being curvy and old!

    Some guys get offended that you aren’t replying, but terrible pictures, guys looking angry, weird, bad lighting, bathroom pics, pics of abs, pics of biceps, pics of their truck and their dogs and the fish they caught, pics with their grandma who they still live with- you know, you just know they don’t have their crap together or they’re weird or they don’t fit you. Of course, I live in South Louisiana and the options are not as plentiful, and I have literally been on sites that I had to just deactivate because I either dated, talked to, or got rejected by anyone remotely interesting within a 100 mile radius! Now, that being said, I’ve had fun online dating but it’s led to mostly just casual things, no one has acted even remotely interested in finding love, and not just with me, I discuss this with some of them who are honest and upfront. What’s up with that? For a while I didn’t care, as I was just enjoying the casual things as well. I feel like the likelihood of finding a great guy who also has a connection and all the things I want is just so slim. Maybe I need to move to a bigger city!

     

  23. 23
    AllHeart81

    Maybe it’s just me but I hate rating people on scales of 1-10. Who am I to say what another person’s ‘rating’ should be? What gives me the right to determine their worth in that way? Rating scales seems so high school to me.

    As I’ve gotten, I have gotten better at showing people who I really am. I guess part of that is because *I* know who I am better. I use to be crap at telling a man what I wanted. I was all about pleasing him. This would lead me to be frustrated though. So for a long time I used the internet as a way to speak my truth to get comfortable in asking for what I wanted or speaking up for what I believed. I started to see men really respond to me online because of it. Not all men mind you. Some would outright call me a name and say I was a “feminist” like wanting equality for women is a dirty word. But some guys responded real positive to me speaking my own mind and loved my intelligence and sound they found my honesty and open mindedness refreshing. So I have carried that in the real world with me. When you live your own truth and fully live as the unique person you are, that’s when you attract the kind of people that will truly appreciate you and don’t just look at you as some number on a scale. I am not a number on a scale whether I am a 1 or a 10. I am a unique person that has a combination of traits that are both good and bad and strength and weaknesses that vary. But I am a full bodied complex person and that’s how I want to be treated. Not like a one dimensional number on a stupid scale.

  24. 24
    Lone Rose

    Well, im 36 years old and i have settled to date men well below my value for awhile now!, and even these guys who are below my level in regards to they may already have kids, -(i have never married or have kids and yet they still look down on me , even when some of them have made irresponsible, couldnt care less choices about who they married/ had kids with, at least i didnt do that in my past and am not careless/irresponsible) they are not as independant as me, and yet they have still rejected me, and the few guys that are/were interested in me lately are completely wrong for me.

    What am i doing wrong? its extremely frustrating, i try and believe that there is something wrong with me, but i see people with much more personal issues then me who are still in happy relationships- they are not perfect looking, and they have major things wrong with them, so why are they in relationships while i am still single? i must be doing something wrong, and i wish i knew what that is!

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