The Blind Spot In Rori Raye’s Circular Dating

The Blind Spot In Rori Raye’s Circular DatingIf you saw a woman who was about to drive off a cliff, would you tell her?

You’re standing on the sidewalk. She’s plowing over orange cones and through the yellow police tape towards a towering precipice.

Yeah, you’d try to stop her.

And the faster she accelerates, the more frantic you get, watching her willingly (and confusingly) speed towards the chasm.

I’m even gonna bet that if you were witnessing something so damaging, you might even put yourself in harm’s way to protect the innocent drivers. Maybe you wouldn’t dive in front of the car, but you’d run and wave your hands and scream at the top of your lungs – anything to avert what is sure to be a serious accident.

This is what it felt like to be featured on my friend Rori Raye’s blog last week, in a post entitled “The Circular Dating Argument”.

I went there to save some lives – and took quite a beating for doing so.

First of all, I need to establish that Rori’s a good friend and I have no doubt that all the women who read her are kind people. Over the past few years, Rori’s products have taken off like a rocket, inspiring a legion of passionate followers. Any time I’d like to think that I’m making a big impact on the world over here, I remember that Rori’s mailing list dwarfs mine.

Which is why I’m always flattered when Rori reaches out to tell me she enjoyed one of my newsletters or wants to mention me in a blog post.

And after an interview I did with her last week for her audio series, we engaged in an email dialogue about one of her signature concepts: Circular Dating.

The definition on her site is benign: “Dating several men (at least 3) all at the same time. You accept the date with the man who calls first, and do not shuffle times or even think about manipulating the schedule in order to get dates with the man you like best, or dates to the most fun places. Circular dating is about Free Therapy and practicing Rori Raye Tools. It is not about finding Mr. Right.”

Nothing to argue with here. What Rori calls Circular Dating, I just call “dating”. Be proactive, date lots of people, have fun, don’t get too excited about a promising prospect – we’re all on the same page so far.

Where this concept of Circular Dating breaks down for me, however – the reason I wanted to guest blog on her website – is this idea:

The concept of circular dating (CDing) is ostensibly supposed to last all the way up until you’re married. Meaning: a woman can tell her devoted boyfriend of a year that since she doesn’t yet have a ring, she’s going to see other people.

You hear that sound? It’s a record scratching.

Yes, there’s something highly discordant about this principle, and I haven’t been able to get it out of my head for nearly a week.

Believe me, I understand the emotion behind Circular Dating. All you have to do is read this blog to know that I am intimately familiar with the frustrations and fears of women. And because way too many women have invested way too much time in men who decided that they didn’t want to get married, CDing is, presumably, a way of protecting oneself.

 

My argument against circular dating has nothing to do with a failure to understand women’s needs, a defense of selfish commitmentphobes, or a personal axe to grind against Rori or her readers. My argument against circular dating centers around only one simple premise: it doesn’t work when you have a good boyfriend.

My argument against circular dating centers around only one simple premise: it doesn’t work when you have a good boyfriend.

 

If you have a boyfriend who is consistent and kind and also wants to be married one day, and you tell him, in a moment of insecurity, that you can’t stand waiting any longer – “it’s been seven months and we’re not engaged, so I’m going to start seeing other men” – you’re essentially taking a dagger to the heart of your relationship. And if you have a boyfriend who isn’t consistent, isn’t kind, and never wants to be married, there’s no need to “circular date”. Just dump him and find the man who treats you well and ultimately wants a commitment. And yes, it is that simple.

The friction here comes from women who want to KNOW that their investment in a man is going to lead to marriage. The problem is that you CAN’T know. All you can know is whether he’s a man of high character, a man who has spoken of a future, a man whose heart is in the right place. Beyond that, there are no guarantees.

No one wants to feel insecure and off-balance. No one wants to waste time on a dead-end relationship. But just because a man isn’t positive he wants to marry you doesn’t mean you break the bonds of exclusivity. If I’m your boyfriend and you start seeing other men, you are essentially cheating on me, and it doesn’t make me feel better about you, our relationship, or our future together.

That’s pretty much the gist of what I said to Rori’s readers. I used metaphors, anecdotes, capital letters, and wrote the way I normally do on here – blunt, powerful, and very confident that what I wrote has a sound basis in truth.

Not my opinion. Truth. About how men think. Good men. The men you want.

If you start to “circular date” when you have a man who is on the precipice of wanting to spend the rest of his life with you, you might actually be driving him away.

And try though I might, I can’t think of too many confident men who feel that their exclusive girlfriend has a right to date other men after 6 months, 12 months or 18 months, merely because she’s insecure that he might not marry her. She can certainly dump him (which is a good strategy when you’re getting past three years of dating.) But seeing other guys while you’re boyfriend/girlfriend doesn’t sit well with me. I speak for most men and remain firm in this sentiment. (By the way, if there are any guys here who are cool with your girlfriend dating other guys as a way of protecting herself and forcing you to shit or get off the pot, please speak up. I’m open to being wrong here.)

Predictably, then came the blowback.

I won’t go into details but I was told in a number of ways that I was wrong. That I was arrogant. That I don’t understand women. That I was verbally abusive. That my marriage was suspect. That my wife was a doormat. And so on and so forth.

I tried, in vain, to reiterate my point of view – which is that I’m offering a constructive, not destructive, criticism of circular dating. I don’t stand to gain anything from “being right” in this situation. But if you start to “circular date” when you have a man who is on the precipice of wanting to spend the rest of his life with you, you might actually be driving him away. And that’s dangerous if you believe that this is solid advice that considers how men think. It is not. It doesn’t consider how men think. It’s advice that may make women feel better, but doesn’t do what it’s designed to do. Which is why I felt like the guy standing on the side of the road, waving his arms, determined not to let any women go over the cliff with this well-intentioned, but ultimately misguided, take on how to get a man to commit.

Naturally, I got run over in the process. C’est la vie. At least I tried. But since I still believe my take on the male mindset is equally valuable as any woman’s take on it, I wanted to respond to the main areas in which Rori’s readers falsely dissected and misinterpreted my argument:

He should know if he wants to marry me. No, actually, he should not. That’s why men date. To figure out, over the course of time, if he wants to spend the next 35 years with you. And that’s exactly what you should be doing with him, as well. Nobody told you to invest three years of your life in a man who has stated that he never wants to get married. Definitely not me. But if you have a boyfriend who wants to get married one day, but he’s not sure if it’s to you, your best bet is to give him lots of time to figure it out before proposing. If you’re under 40, we’re talking at least two years. Over 40, at least a year. But trying to make him figure out the answer to something that he couldn’t possibly know is a recipe for a breakup. Men don’t respond well to being told what to do. As Dr. Pat Allen said: “If you tell a man what to do and he listens, he isn’t a man.” I’m not stating whether this is fair or not; I’m merely stating that it’s true.

Some men just know after 3 months, therefore all men should know that fast. Actually, anyone who claims to “just know” that it’s “right” after one week, one month, or three months has a very selective memory. I “just knew” that my girlfriend in 2003 was right for me. She dumped me after 6 months. Same with the one in 2004, who dumped me after 3 months. So much for “just knowing”. Look back at your history. You have a similar story.

 

The right man knows right away. You might have a strong chemistry and a great feeling about a guy, but lifetime relationships take years to forge, not months. Lots of marriages began with the man knowing right away. And a majority of those marriages ended in divorce. Be careful about rushing into things: you very well could marry the wrong man – where if you dated him for two years, you would have learned more about him and potentially averted a mistake.

A man who is right for you would not risk losing you to another man while he makes up his mind. Au contraire: the right man is a responsible decision-maker. And a responsible decision-maker doesn’t make the decision to marry a woman until he knows her for a really long time and can see how she handles life situations. He may rightfully determine that if his exclusive girlfriend handles her insecurity by insisting that she “circular date”, he could find a healthier relationship without all the drama, fear, and insecurity.

Playing it cool is denying my true feelings. We don’t have to live our lives as mere victims of our feelings. After all, just because you feel something doesn’t necessarily make it true. I had one girlfriend who nearly had a heart attack every time I picked up a Maxim magazine. She may have been entitled to her feelings, but her insecurity that I couldn’t be attracted to her if I was also attracted to a model ended up destroying our relationship. Even her own therapist told her that I was a normal guy and that she should temper her jealous overreactions. So while I’ll never tell you that you’re not entitled to feel what you feel, if what you feel (anxiety, fear, insecurity) becomes your boyfriend’s problem – when he hasn’t done anything wrong – it’s really on you to deal in a healthier fashion.

I don’t want to be the girlfriend, I want to be the wife! You don’t become the wife unless you’re the amazing girlfriend first. If you think that he should marry you because you’ve been together for three months and you love him, then he should have also proposed to about a dozen women he dated for three months before you. Right?

I should be allowed to CD ‘til my wedding day because I don’t want just “a boyfriend”. No one is asserting that you should be content to be merely a girlfriend forever. All I’m saying is that if you’re with a man who believes in marriage, you have to allow him to come to his own conclusions over time. And if you think you’re restricting your options by being faithful, then, by all means, circular date. You’ll just end up losing your boyfriend when you do.

A man who doesn’t marry you is selfish. A man who knowingly strings you along for three years when he has no intention of ever marrying you IS selfish. I’m not talking about that guy. I’m talking about men who do want to get married, but aren’t positive if they want to marry YOU. If I didn’t marry my wife after 16 months of dating, it wouldn’t mean that I knowingly used her for that time. It simply meant that I was trying on the relationship for size to see if it fit for the rest of my life and decided it wasn’t a good fit. MOST relationships break up because either the man or the woman comes to this conclusion. Yet MOST people end up getting married one day. This seems to conclude that most men are marriage minded; they might not necessarily want to marry you, though.

Your way gives men all the power, Evan. By letting men take their time to decide if they want to get married, women are relegated to become the selectee and not the selector. Not remotely true. Who said he has the power? Aren’t you 50% of the relationship? Aren’t you thinking clearly about his flaws and whether you can live with them for the rest of your life? Don’t you have the right to break up with him at any point if you conclude that he’s a good guy, but not your soulmate? Why, yes you can! Which means that BOTH parties are taking an equal risk when committing to each other without a ring – not just you.

CDing gives me my power back over a hot-and-cold man. Maybe it does. But I have a slightly different take on this. A) Don’t date other men. Dump him. Walk away with your head held high and say, “I really care about you, but I’m not getting my needs met here. This is too inconsistent for me and I need to feel safe. Good luck.” And don’t look back. THAT’s how you handle the hot and cold guy. If he comes running back, you may have a boyfriend. If he lets you go, he’s not the guy for you. B) Do you really WANT a guy who is so hot and cold, who leaves you walking on eggshells? Do you really want to be in that relationship for 35 years, where he’s so selfish or such a poor communicator that you never know where you stand? If so, then do everything in your power to get him back – including CDing. But the smart money – given that people rarely change – is on dumping him.

Why should one man monopolize my time? I want to explore all my options. I’m still having trouble fathoming this: the woman ostensibly wants a husband but doesn’t want a boyfriend because she should be out playing the field. Um, I hate to tell you, but the only guy who’s ever going to propose to you is the guy who has been your exclusive boyfriend for a year-plus. And if you refuse to stop exploring your options, no guy worth his salt is gonna stick around. This is the epitome of false female empowerment. You’re not keeping your options open if you’re dating other guys outside of your boyfriend: you’re cheating.

Why should I spend 5-10 years with a man without a ring? Beats the hell out of me. Everything I’ve ever written tells you to leave a guy who a) never wants to get married or b) doesn’t propose to you in a reasonable amount of time.

Which is a great opportunity for me to distinguish between a man’s reasonable amount of time and a woman’s reasonable amount of time…

 

It terrifies me to potentially spend 2 years with a man without a ring. How am I supposed to know which is which? I can completely empathize with your fear. Millions of relationships have endured for far too long, even though they were dead ends. Especially when they’re dead ends. Once you’ve sunk enough time into anything, it’s hard to walk away, even if the relationship isn’t right. So my contention isn’t that it’s easy to be in a relationship when there’s no guarantee of a happy ending. It’s difficult and scary and insecure and all those other feelings you associate with being in limbo. My contention is simply that waiting, investing, and being vulnerable is the BEST way to find love. At the very least, it’s far superior to being fearful and insecure, to the point that you break up with a marriage-oriented man after four months because he can’t guarantee you a ring.

Once again, I’m not basing this on my personal feelings about this. I’m basing this on common principles of human behavior: the way things ARE instead of how we WANT them to be.

My contention is simply that waiting, investing, and being vulnerable is the BEST way to find love.

Sure, it’s scary to be with a guy for 24 months and not have a ring. But the only way you GET the ring is by investing 24 months and being the kind of woman that he can’t imagine living without. If you start to make waves about how nervous you are after three months, six months, one year, etc… you’re putting a lot of pressure on the man before HE’S ready to make his decision.

And that’s the one thing that the Rori followers almost universally did NOT seem to get – that 50% of the relationship is about what HE wants. I know Rori’s message is about female empowerment, having confidence, etc. But if you’re tone deaf to your partner’s needs, you’re going to find yourself without a partner.

Same as the guy who tries too hard to get laid on the first date.

Same as the guy who thinks it’s fair that you pick up the check because you wrote to him online and make more money.

Same as the guy who never wants to hear about your day and only wants to talk about his…

This may or may not be a bad guy – but his refusal to understand your needs means that he will probably alienate you and lose the prospect of dating you.

And just because YOU want him to know that he wants to marry you within eight months doesn’t mean that HE’s going to know.

Case in point: I have five close friends who have gotten married in the past three years.

We are all college educated, literate, six-figure earners. We are readers, we are sports fans, and we dream of having families. We’re very comfortable around women, yet none of us would be termed an “alpha male”. We’re nice Jewish boys.

Every single one of these men – all GREAT catches – waited 3 years before proposing. Three of them even have older wives – 40, 41 years old – just like I do.

Why did it take so long?

Because they take marriage very seriously.

Because they didn’t want to make a huge mistake.

Because they really wanted to be POSITIVE before buying a diamond ring.

And if dating for two years, moving in together, and proposing when they felt it was right meant that the men felt confident going into their marriage, it seems to me that all five women who did it “my way” by playing it cool ended up WINNING.

They got married. They got the guys they wanted.

By playing it cool, not getting consumed by insecurity, and trusting that the man that you love does NOT want to hurt you, you allow him to choose you on his timetable, instead of putting pressure on him to choose before he’s ready.

However, the ONLY way that all of us got married was because our girlfriends DIDN’T start dating other men when we were together.

If they DID start dating other men when we were together, the relationships would have been undermined – and, likely, destroyed. CDing wouldn’t make me feel closer to my wife. It wouldn’t make me feel like like I was losing my soulmate. It would make me feel like I’m losing someone who has no respect for my timetable, and is making a threat that is completely tone-deaf to my needs.

By playing it cool, not getting consumed by insecurity, and trusting that the man that you love does NOT want to hurt you, you allow him to choose you on his timetable, instead of putting pressure on him to choose before he’s ready.

So even though the idea behind Rori’s Circular Dating is to establish self-love and healthy boundaries, dating other men when you have a good, marriage-oriented boyfriend is simply NOT EFFECTIVE. And if you don’t have a good, marriage-oriented boyfriend, I submit that you should break up with him. Who knows? Maybe that’s the only difference between Rori and me.

Taken to its extreme – which is what I’m talking about here – Circular Dating is a fear-based mechanism to protect women from commitmentphobes – yet it will alienate any man who is rightfully wants to take his time to figure out if he wants to spend the rest of his life with you.

To sum up, you should date around all you want until you have a boyfriend.
But once you have a boyfriend, the ONLY way to make it a healthy relationship is to TRUST. Your fears about wasting time only indicate that you believe that he is not a good enough man to want what is best for both of you.

You know the only guy among my friends who got engaged before 3 years? Me.

Of course, that’s because I’m a sensitive guy who spends every waking second listening to women’s needs and the last thing I wanted to do was waste my wife’s biological clock on my inner turmoil. After proposing to her in 16 months (half the time of my friends’ courtships, twice as long as most Rori fans seem to think it should take), I still wasn’t “positive”. But since I’d dated hundreds of women, and coached thousands more, I figured I was making a highly informed decision about my future. It turned out to be the right one and we’re the happiest couple we know.

Yet if a man had a marriage go bust, has been burned by relationships before, or has very little experience with women, so that he doesn’t really know WHAT he’s looking for, it will take him a LONG TIME to figure out if he wants to marry you.

I implore you, from the bottom of my heart, to allot him that time.

He’s a good man. He doesn’t want to hurt you. He just wants to be sure.

Playing it cool certainly doesn’t guarantee marriage, but it DOES maximize your chance of marriage.

And, as a dating coach for women, that’s really what I’m here for – to help you make good, informed decisions that will be effective in landing the man of your dreams.

Whether you’ve been reading me for a long time, or if you’re a Rori fan who just came over here for the first time today, I hope that my intentions are clear:

I’m YOUR advocate. I speak on YOUR behalf, not on behalf of men.

But just like a man can’t have a successful relationship if he’s ignoring your needs, you can’t have a successful relationship and ignore what your man is thinking.

I hope you’ll highly consider this respectful rebuttal from an informed male perspective and we can all go back to finding love once again.

Warmest wishes,

Evan

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Comments:

  1. 271
    Karmic Equation

     
    Does 4 a quorum make? For the sake of argument let’s say so, and that the 4 men who’ve chimed in so far to say that women need to be monogamous for them to propose to her (EMK, Karl R, Jeremy, and RustyLH) are representative of the world of men at large.
     
    This instills fear in the heart of most women of child-bearing years, looking to get married, does it not?
     
    This is the microcosm of the male-dominated culture that controls women’s sexuality.
     
    If women didn’t care about marriage, what power would men have over us?

    Successful women can have children without men (ever hear of sperm banks?) — There is no longer ANY STIGMA WHATSOEVER about single parenthood or even women who choose to have children via artificial insemination because she wants to silence her biological clock
    And men who want children? Umm they’re going to work that much harder to find women to have children to “carry on his good name”, won’t they?

    Successful women can raise children without men (we can afford nannies; and there are a lot of single moms out there doing this because they must not because they can afford to)
    Strong, secure women don’t need men to validate their worth as women or as human beings
    “Smart” women don’t want men less educated than they are — and many women here agree that educated women are increasing in the population while educated men are decreasing

    Before I go further, while I sound like a feminist, I am definitely NOT. I LOVE men and NEED them…for companionship…for love…for sex — ALL of which I can get WITHOUT marriage and without even committed LTRs. See where I’m going?

     
    If we women really want to revolutionize the new age of sexual liberation — it’s NOT to make women more chaste, to teach men our value — it is to take away men’s power over what WE value. Devalue marriage as something every woman aspires to have? And then what would men offer to get the sex and “commitment” THEY so desperately want? And men who want to have children? I wonder what they would do to earn the favor of a woman willing to bear his child?
     
    Might it be the love and devotion we truly desire?
     
    If women are willing to walk away if men stop loving us the way we want? If we can go and have sex with his best friend when he disrespects us? Gee, maybe he might clean up his act if he KNOWS that he earns OUR presence in his life; OUR love, and OUR sex with his DEVOTION not with his PROMISE OF A FUTURE? Gee, might we be able to detect lying men because now we really and truly evaluate his actions (how devoted is he behaving) instead of his pretty words (“I want to honeymoon in Bora Bora someday” and “You’re beautiful and I love you so much!”).
     
    That would be truly revolutionary. But I think too radical for most women to stand behind. To much of insurgence against the male culture we’ve internalized. <sigh>
     
    Peace :)

     

    1. 271.1
      John

      the 4 men who’ve chimed in so far to say that women need to be monogamous for them to propose to her (EMK, Karl R, Jeremy, and RustyLH) are representative of the world of men at large.
       
      You can add me to this list.  A woman would need to be monogamous in order for me to propose. Heck,  a woman would need to be monogamous in order for me to introduce her to my friends/family.
       
      I usually disagree with EMK on many topics, but he nailed this one. Sounds like Rori’s readers beat him up pretty good- a lot more than I could ever do- but he held his ground and made great points. I am sure he did save a few souls over there.

      1. 271.1.1
        Julia

        John, seems very reasonable to me. Relationships must have a foundation of trust, how could you trust a partner if she were running around with many men as a means to make you jealous as propose. Its manipulation 101, not healthy at all. I agree with dating multiple people while in the casual stage but once a man steps up and shows you he wants to be with just you, its time to get to know him better. The whole concept of manipulation for proposals, women being obsessed with the only end goal:marriage and men toying with women for fun is phooey. As a woman “in my child bearing years” my end goal is not an engagement ring, its a lifetime partnership with a man I adore, adores me and compliments me. Its long term partnership. My role of figuring out if he’s good for me is just as important as him taking the time to figure out if I am the one.

        None of this can be accomplished when either partner is anxious and doesn’t trust. 

    2. 271.2
      Chance

      “If we can go and have sex with his best friend when he disrespects us? Gee, maybe he might clean up his act if he KNOWS that he earns OUR presence in his life”

       

      Yeah, so anyone who goes off and has sex with his/her partner’s best friend when he/she feels disrespected is a shitbag, and so is the “best friend”.  Sorry.  Reading this post alone, it makes you come across like someone who is trying to use women’s liberation as justification to stop treating people with common decency.

       

      1. 271.2.1
        RustyLH

        Yeah, so anyone who goes off and has sex with his/her partner’s best friend when he/she feels disrespected is a shitbag, and so is the “best friend”. Sorry. Reading this post alone, it makes you come across like someone who is trying to use women’s liberation as justification to stop treating people with common decency.

        That surprises you John? On the surface, feminism was fine…but many at it’s core aren’t interested in equality. They want special rights. They are in a word…SELFISH. The want rights without responsibilities. They want rights reserved only for them. They want men to bear all of the responsibilities with few if any rights.

        It causes a problem when arguing against that form of feminism because many women see themselves as a feminist but that is because they are only interested in equal rights. They do not realize that they give aid and comfort to women that want to destroy what these mainstream women want. The core are selfish and want to destroy the whole notion of paternal head of household marriages. This woman above is seems to also think this is just fine. Her stance seem to be that we men should just be happy with our sucky place in the world that she and the rest of the feminists deem acceptable for us, and if we aren’t happy with that, if we can’t give up our rights, but still take on the responsibility of kissing their feet with adoration, then they will just make us irrelevant…obsolete. LOL Yeah, OK. What they haven’t clued into is that we don’t need them.

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          Rusty, it’s time to curtail this MRA attitude, because if the irony hasn’t escaped you, it’s the exact flipside of the feminism you so decry – it’s selfish, shortsighted, and denigrates an entire gender. This is a blog for smart, strong, successful women. There is nothing for them to learn from a man who has absolutely no interest in them or sympathy to their plight. So either be constructive and helpful to our readers, or go back to the MRA sites which believe that men are oppressed by women. Right now, your posts are becoming destructive in their tone.

  2. 272
    RustyLH

    You’re nothing more than a feminist. I’ve read their mantra…destroy marriage itself.

    If we women really want to revolutionize the new age of sexual liberation — it’s NOT to make women more chaste, to teach men our value — it is to take away men’s power over what WE value. Devalue marriage as something every woman aspires to have? And then what would men offer to get the sex and “commitment” THEY so desperately want? And men who want to have children? I wonder what they would do to earn the favor of a woman willing to bear his child?

    I think men would find it much cheaper in the long run to pay a young woman to carry a child to term for him. And far less headaches for him. he doesn’t have to use her eggs and in fact it would be far better for him not to, in case she suddenly wants the baby. If it is his sperm but not her eggs, then include the contract, it gives him far better legal standing in court.

    Two can play that game of “we don’t need you.” Men can also find a woman overseas, which offers 20% chance of divorce instead of 60%, a wife who is typically in better shape, prettier, still likes being a woman, respects men for just being a good man, is more affectionate, doesn’t use sex, love affection or sex as a weapon, etc…

    Sterotypes women in the states promote to make themselves feel better.

    She’s just looking for a green card.—–Not true in most cases. And there are other western countries they can go where it is far easier for them to get citizenship, such as most European countries, if that is what they offer. Some of the sites I use, the many of the woman have selected the “not interested in moving to another country” option. Even most of those who say they would cosnider it, have college degrees, and many have very good jobs. Nurses, doctors, lawyers, business women, etc… They have to start over if they move here. No…like it or not, most are looking for love. So long as a man is realistic in his choice, he has a very good chance of a long term successful marriage. I think the majority of the 20% that fail are the guys who are unrealistic. 60 year old bringing a 20 year old model type to the country and thinks his money and house will be enough to keep her long term. However, a 50 year old, in reasonable shape, a job and a good heart, can reasonably expect a decent looking woman as young as 34 to stay. I myself prefer no younger than 38. I think that is safer because most women in those countries typically list guys 3 years younger to 12 years older as their preference.

    2 of the men at my church are married to Brazilian women that are 13 years younger. I know these women and they are very happy. Both want to hook me up but I prefer to do that for myself.

    I liken it to American women of quality as being a mountain…and they are saying, “man up and accept the challenge…climb me…you’ll enjoy the view. But a sane man knows that a life at the top of the mountain is unfriendly, and a lot of work for little payoff, not to mention many dangers and severe consequences. Then their attitude is, “What? Not man enough..fine, I don’t need you.”

    But, the sane man knows that life in the valley (foreign women) is more rewarding. More return on investment. More lush landscape, more fertile so what you plant grows better. By that i am not talking about babies. I am talking about the fact that what you do for her is appreciated far more than it is by American women. in addition the risks are not as great. You can relax and enjoy your life without watching ever footstep, where as, every footstep in on the mountain could be your last if you aren’t careful. Of course it is good for the man to see the mountain beside his valley. It will help him appreciate what he has.

    1. 272.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      One question, Rusty: Why are you here? Are you trying to make healthier relationship choices? Understand how women think better? Or are you just trolling to make women feel bad? Because even if I agree with much of what you say, your lack of empathy/diplomacy is alienating my readers. If you want to date a young foreigner, go do so. Otherwise please restrict your commentary to the question at hand, instead of pronouncements on what’s wrong with American women.

      1. 272.1.1
        RustyLH

        Why am I here? You know…on the surface it’s an easy question, because I happened across Rory’s blog by accident, and was quite frightened by what I saw there. I was in the process of a divorce at the time, and thought, “WOW, this is what is waiting for me out there? No thanks.”

        But I saw your name mentioned and it was in reference to the circular dating, and I agreed with you. So I visited your blog to see hat it was about…and lurked on a few topics. Then I just walked away from both blogs. A few days ago I found yours again by accident with a Google search.

        On a deeper level, what am I looking for? I had to think about it for a few minutes after seeing your post. The best thing I can come up with is that I am searching for a glimmer of hope. Seeing the good advice you give and how it is resisted is dashing that hope. It is appearing to me to be just the same old same old by these women. My perception is that they don’t think they have a problem or are even really part of the problem. Most seem to prefer instead to shift blame. They aren’t domineering and selfish, they are strong and know what they want. It reminds me of the stereotypical couple with the wife dragging the man to the psychiatrists office and telling the psychiatrist, “Fix him. so we can have a good marriage.”

        So I am looking for hope. i grew up loving American women. I did “NOT” want to come to a point in my life where I felt that boycotting American women was the answer, but it seems that answer is being forced on me. I’m not seeing a viable alternative.

        The attitude is men just need to man up and understand that this is 2014, and things have changed. I think men are well aware that things have changed. I think men are well aware that things are not going to go back to the way they used to be, and I don’t think most men even want them to go back to the way they used to be. But It seems most women don’t understand that not all change is good, and often, in the beginning of big changes, a lot of bad comes with the good. The idea is to get rid of the bad and keep the good. I see little hope of that happening in the near future. It took decades to get here, so I don’t see it happening overnight…or next year.

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          And THAT is a very reasonable post, Rusty. And I think it’s unfortunate that this site makes you lose hope. Look around – most people here are bought in to this kind of advice. I have a success stories page at the top of the page that grows regularly with women who have lived this kind of advice. So it’s not nearly as hopeless as you make it sound. I think that dating is frustrating inherently, but asking an entire gender to change – well, again, that’s exactly what you’re trying to do, and exactly what the hardcore feminists are trying to do as well. Should it be any surprise that such people sound like the most negative people around? You are right that not all change is good, but it is inevitable, and we have to adjust to it. If you’re a more “traditional” man, there are no shortage of women who long for such a relationship – yes, even here in America. I just want to remind you that you’re a bright guy, but your negative outlook is a) certainly not helping our majority-women readers and b) not helping YOU. If you believe in most of what I’m saying here, try to channel it yourself. Be the kind of man who inspires women to be their best and walk away kindly from women who don’t share your worldview. That’s all you can do, my friend.

        2. RustyLH

          I don’t really see myself as traditional…maybe just a bit, but I see that more as compromising. Are there some things I want that may be seen as traditional? Sure. I see it as natural. I do not expect, nor want a subservient woman. Women who think that is what we look for overseas are in denial. I think it is as simple as this. Men still want to be masculine. On the Myers-Briggs, the majority of the Natural Leaders (TJ) are male. I’m one of them. We simply aren’t going to be comfortable or happier not being a leader. It is who we are. I do not see being a leader as being a tyrant or boss. Those people have incontestable power over you. I see leaders in a marriage as being more like the Pirate Captain who is chosen to be a leader by his crew, and if he wants to remain their leader, he strives to always do the right thing by his crew. They may not always agree, but over a long period, they know if he is being a good leader and if he cares about them. If he doesn’t perform his duties in a manner the crew likes, at some point they remove him from his position.

          I am also not traditional in that I don’t think a woman has to stay home, but if that is what she wants to do and is willing to live off just my income, and I feel comfortable with that, then OK, maybe we can do that. Frankly, however, I don’t see that being a viable long term solution. Most women are more materialistic than men. They aren’t usually going to be happy doing that unless the man is bringing home a lot of money. So I am more than happy to support her in whatever career she chooses.

          I also don’t care if she makes more money, so long as she doesn’t see that as an issue. And, even though women never supported this concept when they make less than the husband, I do not require that she split the post bills money 50/50. On the other hand, women seem to have huge issues with men not making as much as they do. That would be the only reason I would be hesitant to get into a relationship where she makes more. It would also depend on how she sees that defining our relationship. Does she assume this now means she is supposed to be the leader? If so we have a problem. I feel very comfortable in this view for myself because as a leader in the Navy, I was very popular with my crew, even though we were outperforming everybody else. I had one incident that nearly brought me to tears. I had one young petty officer that fought me tooth and nail for a long time. Then he stopped. We worked the night shift and I was the shop supervisor for that shift. We were doing (literally) ten times the work of the day shift. They blamed the flight schedule, and I showed the day supervisor that we had just as many flight on our shift. My last month there, they moved me to day shift so I could do all of the things I needed to do since I was transferring from San Diego to Pensacola, Florida.

          This young man, Travis, sat in his car, parked next to mine, all day. When I walked to my car, transfer packet in hand, he got out and asked if he could talk to me. He told me that he wanted to apologize for always butting heads with me. I told him it wasn’t a problem. he said, “No…no…it was, and I was wrong. I just wanted you to know that I appreciate the way you dealt with me. After Ron took over for you as night shift supervisor, it became even more obvious how good of a leader you were, and how fair you were.” He then told me that he had a letter for me, because he was afraid he would leave something out so he spent the previous week writing it.

          So I read it right there in front of him. He went on to describe how the two previous night shift supervisors had made a habit of throwing the crew under the bus when mistakes were made, never taking responsibility on themselves. But went out of their way to credit themselves when anything went right. he said that when I took over, he figured I would be just like them. He said he had become tainted. Figured that was how all leaders would act. He said he had made me pay for their misdeeds, and apologized. He then went on to describe when he realized that I was different.

          See, I had spent some time building them into effective leaders after a disastrous incident on my very first day as night shift supervisor. The Chief Warrant Officer asked who was in charge and I of course said I was, and he walked up to me and said, “This is a Pig F_ck. I need to say anything more?” Red faced, I simply said, “No Sir.”

          So after everything was fixed, I told my second to get everybody in the shop for a meeting. I let them know what mistakes had been made and how it basically came down to not taking responsibility for their assigned duties. Crew leaders assuming his crew had all the gear that they needed, instead of checking the tool checkout log, etc… Told them that their job wasn’t just to do their job, their job was to prove that they were capable of doing the next level up without supervision. That when they did a job and asked for it to be checked, they were telling me this was done to their standards. If it wasn’t even close to correct, it told me they weren’t even close to being ready to do my job as a QA inspector. Even in menial tasks, like cleaning the shop for an inspection, if they couldn’t be trusted to do that, I couldn’t trust them on a $40 million dollar F-14 aircraft.

          He wrote that at first he resisted my making them take on their leadership roles. Thought initially that I was looking for a way to make it easier to blame them when something went wrong. But he said that since he was a crew leader, he came to enjoy not having somebody looking over ship shoulder all the time. He liked being in charge.

          Then one day, before our last launch of the evening, I was told the pilot wanted to see me on the jet. So I went out there and he asked “Were you the senior person on the repairs that were just been completed a short while ago? Petty Officer O_____ (Travis) says the senior person was you. Is that correct? Because Weapons Station Four was left unsecured.”

          Travis wrote,

          When we were doing the repairs, you came out and asked if we needed any help. I was in charge and didn’t want you taking over so I told you that we didn’t need your help and that I had it. A few minutes later, after talking to a couple of people, you left to take care of other things. I was the senior person on the jet, and I QA’d the work. But when asked, who had been the senior person on the jet, I panicked and threw you under the bus. When the pilot asked, you looked at me, and I’m not sure what I expected you to say, but you didn’t say anything to me. I will never forget the way you looked at me, though. You looked disappointed. And, then you turned to the officer and said, “Yes sir, my fault, won’t happen again.” The Pilot looked at me, then back to you, smiled and said, “I’m confident it won’t. We’ll keep this between us.” I felt like crap. The more I think about it, I think he knew that you weren’t the senior man on the jet.

          Then you pulled me aside. I remember thinking that you were going to lay into me. But all you said was, “Travis, are you sure you are ready to be a leader?” I of course said yes. So you said, “A leader takes responsibility when he screws up. You screwed up.” And then you left me standing there by myself. I felt like Sh_t.

          I started watching you. Sometimes you didn’t know I was there, but several times I was outside Maintenance Control when pilots or the chiefs would compliment you on a particular job, but you always made sure they knew who actually did the work. When they said something wasn’t done right, you protected us and took responsibility.

          I also observed that the chiefs and pilots knew what you were doing and talked highly of you when you weren’t around. You were also very fair with us, never playing favorites. Ron plays favorites and night shift is quickly starting to suck again.

          I came to a point that I knew I wanted to be like you when my time came. But I will admit that the thought scares me. I worry that I may end up like Ron, Smitty or Rick. I don’t want my guys thinking of me like do about those guys. I wish I had more time to work with you, to learn from you.

          Again, I just wanted you to know that I am sorry that I that I gave you so much crap, and I’m really sorry I threw you under the bus that day. And, I just wanted you to know how much I appreciate having the chance to work for you. You’re the best leader I’ve ever seen in my 4 years in the Navy. I hope when you get to Pensacola, you don’t have to deal with anyone like me. HAHA

          And then he closed with simple well wishes.

          I can tell you that it took me a couple of minutes before I could speak. When I felt I could, I looked him in the eyes, and said, “Travis, I hope I have a whole shop full of guys like you to deal with when I get there. I don’t think you have it within you to be like those three. But, until it is your time to be in charge, watch those above you, and remember what you liked and did not like about them. When it is your turn, and you come to important decisions, and you aren’t sure what to do, or the thought of what you know you should do scares you, simply remember what it was like serving under all of those leaders, and let that guide you. Take on the good in each one and reject the bad. I have no doubt that you are going to make a great leader.”

          I went to shake his hand but he pulled me in for a bro-hug and said “Good luck in Pensacola.”

          Last I heard, he was lighting the world on fire at NAS North Island, where he transferred to after VF-2. A guy who, when put in my charge, was expected to go nowhere…a guy labeled as a hard head…too resistant to authority. I like to believe I had a lot to do with helping him get to where he now finds himself.

          If you’ve read this far, thanks for letting me toot my own horn for a minute. It was a defining moment in my life. I was not the least bit surprised when the Myers-Briggs later defined me as an ENTJ (Fieldmarshal). One of the 4 natural leaders.

          Now I am on my next phase in life. Getting the degree I need to be able to work in the profession I want to work in, Information Technology. Not as much ability to lead in this field. So who will I lead. I like the idea of being the leader with a woman who is willing to grant me that privilege. Doesn’t seem like a lot of them like that idea these days. Not here anyway.

        3. SparklingEmerald

          EMK said  at 271.2.1. something or other
           
          “Rusty, it’s time to curtail this MRA attitude, because if the irony hasn’t escaped you, it’s the exact flipside of the feminism you so decry – it’s selfish, shortsighted, and denigrates an entire gender. . . .”
           
          Thankyou EMK, I “heart” you !  I really come here to read what YOU have to say, and to hear the relevant commentary of the thoughtful posters.  These men who come here to tell us that all women are awful really pollute your blog.  Thanks for calling him out on this.

  3. 273
    SparklingEmerald

    Rusty @272.1 – There are many women who would like to be with a man who is willing to lead the relationship.  I know, I am one of them.  I am NOT looking for Macho Neanderthal who wants to club me over the head and drag me to his man cave, but what I want a man who is decisive and willing to lead the relationship with kindness.  I want a worthy leader.  Not someone who is going to lead us off a cliff. Not some woman hater who is going to try and bully his way into the leadership role, because he thinks he is entitled to that role by virtue of possessing a penis,  but is willing to prove that he is capable and would do so with OUR best interest in mind, not for his own purely self serving interests.  In fact, until I met the guy I am seeing now, I was continually frustrated that I seemed to attract nothing but wimps. 
    You seem to think that all American women are bossy bitches out to screw  men over.  Despite your long rambling story of how you are the best leader in the whole wide world, perhaps you are with co-workers, but I can’t imagine a woman looking to you as a leader, since you look at EVERY American woman with a jaundiced eye. Even tho’  many American women would love a loving leader, you don’t come off as loving toward women, you come across as bitter and myogynist.  What woman would want  to be  led by a man who hates her for her gender and nationality ? You continually talk about the stereotypes American Women make about foreign women, yet you do NOTHING but stereotype American women and say how awful we are. 
     
     

    1. 273.1
      RustyLH

      What a disappointing post. II see one big difference between us. If you had shared a moment in your life, a defining moment, when you had a big impact on another person, I would not denigrate that.

      As for the rest, you assume, based on my venting here. But you know nothing about me in real life. I have zero doubt that you couldn’t pick me out of 4 people if you met me, because you have built a preconceived notion of how I am in real life. What you saw here is that I am fed up. That’s all. If I met an American woman I felt was worth it, I would marry her. I just don’t have much hope in finding one that meets what I am looking for. Even here, supposedly bright, well read, intelligent women just fly off the handle. I prefer a woman who knows how to use her intelligence and femininity to be a calming factor in my life, not bring drama…not escalate tensions.

      I’ve also seen women here advocate lying to a man they want to marry by having sex with other men but keep that a secret…while they wait for the first guy to decide he wants to get married. On other blogs, such as Rory’s, I’ve seen even more extremely disturbing stuff. Even major control freaks.

      The problem as I see it is that our society right now is that even otherwise sane women fall back on some seriously disturbing notions, encouraged by social norms of the present day. I equate it to a 1950s man who is basically a decent guy, and loves his wife dearly, but because of the social norms of the day, he saw his wife as inferior, and under stress, that would rear it’s ugly head.

      And finally, you have to resort to name calling, such as misogynist. Maybe you intelligent women can learn to debate intelligently without resorting to ad hominem tactics just once when you disagree with somebody? Hmmm? Pretty please? With sugar on top? Maybe try to leave emotion out of it and use logic instead? Here…I’ll show you how.

      Am I a misogynist? Well let’s see if this qualifies.

      For 14 years I turned over my whole paycheck and allowed my wife to run the finances, even though I earned the majority of the money.
      I supported my wife when she returned to school, even though I had major misgivings about Sanford Brown, with it having law suits against it. But it was her decision and so I left her to her business.
      Even at times where I was the only breadwinner in the house, I still helped out with chores, and over that 14 years, I cooked more of the dinners. Way more. In fact, I was a better cook. I’ve been cooking since well before I hit double digits thanks to a mom who insisted I learn to take care of myself. Baking…that was her thing, she was better at that than I was. I could do it, but she was better. I was better at cooking things from scratch, and even just looking at what we had and throwing something together that tasted really good.
      I did laundry just the same as her. Oh, and even during the times when I was the only one working, not only did i help out around the house cooking and cleaning, I still did ALL of the typical manly chores, like mowing the lawn.
      I never took anybody’s side against my wife in public. She did that regularly against me. I kept score. It was easy. Every time that happened…every time, I was able to prove that I had been right. She actually admitted once that she did it because she didn’t want to appear to be a sycophant wife that supported her husband by default. Before we even started dating she made it clear she had misgivings about marriage and relationships in that she had a fear of being made a second class citizen. She tried many times to use that as an excuse for acting in the very manner that she didn’t want a man acting.
      I never once talked bad about her behind her back while we were married. She made a habit of it.
      I never talked about our sex life with friends or family. She did.
      She always got the good car. First good one I had, I still have. A Silverado.
      Even when we were separated, and her car broke down, I let her use my truck, and rode my bike 25 miles round trip in my daily commute for a week while her car was being repaired.
      Oh yeah, I paid for the parts and the repairs.
      Not once did I ever treat her as an inferior.
      I have no problems voting for female politicians. I think we MUST have females in government.
      I served under some females in the Navy. Never saw the difference between that and when I was served under a man. I just did my job.
      I see no difference between my female professors and the male professors.

      What I do have is little hope of finding a woman who matches what I want. Not in this country. If that makes me a misogynist, well…I’ll just LOL.

      1. 273.1.1
        Evan Marc Katz

        All of your grievances are fair. Your conclusion that “American” women are all the same is completely off.

        1. RustyLH

          Can completely buy that. But it really seems like they are like a needle in a haystack. This isn’t just a case of needing to recalibrate. I am seeing legitimate deal breakers in women everywhere I turn…when I turn here.

          I also don’t like to “run game” and I am sure in your field, you have looked into that and seen how guys can make that work and I know for a fact it works and guys I know have tried to get me to really learn it. i would like you take on that stuff. My opinion is that while it works to get the girl, it doesn’t work to keep the girl. At some point, you just want to relax and be yourself. But it works and is IMHO addictive to women. They want the nice guys to talk to them like that. But we don’t lie it because it seems dishonest. So nice guys are left to be thought of as boring. We aren’t tripping all the right signals right on cue, giving her brain candy.

          I wanted to tell you that I had finally figured out one of the reasons I preferred foreign women. I can just be a nice guy and that is enough for them to be passionate about you. You don’t have to be a bad boy. You don’t have to be a player. You can just be an honest and nice guy.

          i’ll leave it there. But I would actually love to see you address this “game” stuff and how you think that might affect how women look for guys once they have had this happen to them several times. And by what I have seen in my own experience, guys have really been buying into it for several years now. I know most women would probably proudly decry that they have never fell for it, but i would be more inclined to believe that they have, and didn’t know it. Just thought the guy was cool, and liked him. If the guy is good at it, she doesn’t even know he’s doing it, and many are very good at it.

      2. 273.1.2
        SparklingEmerald

        273.1 – OK Rusty LH – I apologize for the snarky remark about your leadership role that you described.  It was obviously a proud moment for you, and I shouldn’t have belittled it.  I know it’s hard to read tone on a blog, but I really mean it. OK ?
        But you constantly go on about how ALL American women are so awful and since I’m an American woman . . . who just wants to love a good man (and he may have found me, but it’s too soon to say) well, you are insulting me with your remarks, even if it’s a blanket insult of my gender/nationality combo.

        OK, I get that you are venting, and your annoymous blog vents don’t reflect how you act in the real world.   Your in person persona is probably very different.
         
        I vent on this blog too, and have been told that I can’t possibly be one way on this blog (frustrated, especially since this is a blog devoted to the ONE & ONLY thing in my life I struggle with) and then put it away on a date.  (OH, but I can :) ) HELLO !!!!!  How about being “in the moment !”  When I am venting on this blog, that is one moment. When I am with a guy having a great time on a date, that is a completely different moment.  The girl in her rag tag t-shirt & flip flops   getting pissy at a blog commenter calling all American women terrible, selfish, etc. is not the same girl in heels and a dress laughing &  getting cozy & kissy on the couch at the wine bar with her new boyfriend.
        Your marriage experience sounds similar to mine. It was good for about the first half, then took a spiraling nosedive.  I did my very best to be a loving and devoted wife, nursed my hubby when sick, and he verbally abused me & my son if we got sick.  Stayed home for five years at his request to raise our child, let him come & go as he pleased with his  sports buddies,  over looked a lot of his shortcomings, only to have him tell me at 23 years that he only married me because he thought I was cute and he wanted to be a father. And thanks for the baby, but I don’t need your services as a brood mare any more, good bye !  I felt like I had 23 years of my life STOLEN from me by a womb digger ! (But how can I totally regret it, we dug a pretty awesome son out of my womb ! )
        Even when I worked full time after our son was in school, did the grocery shopping & meal making, housework, acted as his personal clothes shopper since he was color blind, typed his resumes, took care of all the social niceties such as RSVPing to weddings, purchasing the gifts, and taking his suit to the dry cleaners,  and did all the majoring chauffering of our son, he demanded that I do lawn work too.  And complained that HE was the one who handled calling the repairmen when major appliances broke down.  He called that “doing everything” around here. 
        So I feel your pain Rusty. Really I do   A shitty marriage can do that to a person. 
        My rebound boyfriend was a foreigner.  I too thought that maybe I would have better luck with a non American.  I had this fantasy that because he wasn’t American, he would know how to treat a woman.  WRONG. He treated me well until I agreed to be exclusive, then he turned into a crappy boyfriend and the sexiness of his foreigness, nor his good looks helped.  I dated another foreigner after that.  Not much better.  So now I evaluate men on their merits, not their nationality, or height, or income.  (within reason, I’m not going out with homeless men that I feel zero attraction for)
        You can spend tons of money on overseas trip, and you could just end up with another crappy girlfriend with a foreign accent.  Or you could take your chances with women here in the states, and instead of looking at their nationality, look at how they treat you and how they make you feel.
        DUMP the ones who treat you like crap, whatever their nationality.  (the cheaters, the liars, the female players, the flakes and the “Rules” girls)  The nice girls that you just aren’t attracted to, kindly wish them well in their search.  When you find a sexy, sweet, girl that floats  your boat,  who wants to love you and respect you, KEEP HER for yourself, regardless of  her nationality, and don’t make her guess where she stands.
        Here is what I learned from the last half of my marriage (the crappy part).  And what EMK tells us ladies, but applies to men as well.  If a relationship partner mistreats you, GET OUT ! 
         

        1. henriette

          I second EMK.  Nicely done, Sparkling Emerald!  And, by the by, WOOT on your new boyfriend!!

      3. 273.1.3
        tamara

        In response to your comment under #273.1.1: I wish u’d stop talking about this ‘game’ thingee so much. I don’t think it’s as effective as u think. The only 2 guys I’ve ever loved have been the Nice guys–the kind who call, who make a girl feel loved etc. Unfortunately I was too young to fully appreciate them. If I’d ever felt that a guy was playing games, or sending mixed signals, or not being himself, I would’ve been so turned off. Because a great guy doesn’t have to use bizarre tactics to win over a girl.  I’ve dated some of those player types, and it was such a turn-off, I got out as soon as I realised and didn’t miss them at all. After all,  I can be with a ‘nice’ guy with their good traits (such as confidence and charm) who lacks their bad traits.
         
        The thing is, I’m non-American, and I’m scared that u’ll fit me into your hypothesis of ‘non-American women like nice guys, American women like bad boys’. I don’t really think it’s true. I know many American women, and while their outward behavior can be a bit louder and sometimes more abrasive than that of women from other countries (huge generalisations of cos), I haven’t sensed that inside they are all that different, in their desires. Living in a cosmopolitan city, I’ve dated guys from various different countries–I don’t find that guys from one country are extremely different from guys from another. Btw western media pervades most modern societies, so that is slowly westernising/Americanising women from foreign countries, further reducing any differences which are already not that significant.
         
        Btw like I said, I have never been susceptible to those guys who play games, but after hearing u talk about it, I’m gonna read up on some of those ‘game’ tactics u talk about, and the moment any guy tries using it on me, I’m ditching him for sure. Gonna warn my gfs too :)

        1. SparklingEmerald

          Rusty – EMK addressed “game” a little over a year ago in response to a question sent in by your truly.  (Moi)   It’s called “How do I make sense of all the dating advice out there”.
          I’ll admit that I’ve fallen for a bad boy a time or two in my youth.  (My first husband was the quintessential bad boy, I knew it and married him anyway,  dumb, dumb, dumb) 
          But that doesn’t mean nice guys never get the girl.  As EMK says, we want a “nice guy” with balls.  That’s all.

        2. RustyLH

          SE, I think you and Evan misunderstand what I am talking about when I mention “GAME.” There seems to be more than one way to skin a cat when it comes to game and it seems that men have to figure out which version works for them. Most people when thinking about think of a guy being a dick, but in reality it’s more like being a smooth talker, and if it don’t work it wouldn’t be smooth. Tat must be pointed out because I think most of us, when we hear the term smooth talker, we envision a greasy character that we can spot a mile away. In reality, we are usually better at spotting them in hindsight than when they are in front of us. And I am sure there are women just like those smooth talkers, though they don’t seem to be teaching it on the net.

          Now this is the point. I have seen women here and on other blogs admit that when you are totally totally into a guy, you have difficulty maintaining your cool. Well news flash…it’s the same for guys. The difference is, guys are looking for signs that you are really into him…remember, we are looking for a woman that makes us feel like a king. So when a woman can’t keep her cool, when she is over the moon for us, it is flattering and gets our attention. So it can work for you. Your danger is that the man you are over the moon for might be scum.

          For men, this does not work and here is why. Women aren’t initially looking for the guy that makes her feel good. Not like that. In fact, if a guy makes you feel like that initially you become turned off. This is why the direct nice guy approach does not work. It gets you shot down. I believe what is going on, even if on a subconscious level is that if a guy is over the moon for you, something in you mind screams…”If he is that over the top for me, I must be able to do better.” One of the key elements in “Game” is to make the women feel she is not so special. To knock her down a peg or two. Knock her off her pedestal, Knock her off her high horse. But you can’t be a dick about it. It is subtle. If it were as easy as being a dick, it wouldn’t need to be taught. Any guy, or girl can be a dick. You have to do so in a way that doesn’t make her angry at you. This is one form of game, and this is the one used when the woman gives off an attitude that she is too good for you. Remember the story about Jessica Alba? I am sure she felt she was better than that guy, but in one question, he was able to circumvent that and put her in the position of having to prove to him that she had value. She recognized it because she knew it was coming. Most women never see it coming. So it will have the same affect, but she won’t realize what is happening like Jessica did.

          I’ve seen videos where they are running a completely different kind of game. One where the woman may not feel she is out of his league, but she is just hesitant, reluctant, maybe has a boyfriend…but not over the moon for him, etc… This method, they develop some way to keep her engaged and talking and literally steers her like a cat. Not easy to do but can be done with determination. There is still a little element of leveling the playing field as above but much more subtle.

          OK, my point here again is that if I am totally over the moon for a girl, it is not going to be easy to act confident, and the key word there is act and that goes for any man that is over the moon for you. If he really isn’t acting confident and just is, then you aren’t that special in his eyes. The point here is that I can be confident in everything I do. I usually am a very confident person. But, if the woman is all that, in my eyes, I may appear a bit nervous. Maybe blush a bit..not sure on that one. Heart rate will be up. Adrenaline will be pumping. Palms sweaty, etc..

          But nervous is not attractive to women. The only conclusion I can come up with is that women aren’t looking for a guy that is over the moon for her…they are looking for a man that they are over the moon for, and this guy by definition will not be over the moon for her. Why? Because he has to have so much going for him that he knows he has his pick…and he picks YOU. So aren’t you special. Except that if he isn’t nervous, he wasn’t that into you. Maybe he does pick you, but only because the three he wants are all taken, and he needs somebody to tide him over until one of those three becomes available, or one like them comes along.

          I saw a documentary, maybe Even knows of it. I can’t remember the name, but they interviewed couples that had 20 to 60 years together. They learned many things from these couples. One thing that surprised them was that when they initially met, the men all knew right away that either they DID want her for a wife, or knew she might be who he wanted. They all said that she was their idea of their ideal woman. Not one of the women thought that initially, but over time came around to that belief.

          Now of course, knowing what I know, I highly doubt any of those men professed their live immediately or told those women that they wanted to marry them in the first 3 months. Had they done so, had they been honest, I don’t think they would be married.

          Maybe this has deeper affects…the fact that to be successful, men have to be sneaky, lie, etc… I know some may say, but no, just be honest, and confident. No, that does not work. Again, i am saying that if a man is totally over the moon for a woman, he must not show that. he has to in effect, lie about his true feelings.

          Let me link a video here. It’s a proposal that went viral. At the end, when he is proposing to her, he tells her that he knew the moment he laid eyes on her that he wanted her. I have heard many men say this about their wives. But I can guarantee you that not one of them went up to her and said, “I am totally awestruck by you. I am marriage minded and honestly, I think I would like to marry you, but I want to get to know you first. Would you be interested in dating me?”

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVTr5MNa_8Y

        3. Evan Marc Katz

          I’m pretty sick of the “I knew from the moment I saw you” stories. For every one of those that turned out right, there are 100 “I just knew” moments that imploded. I didn’t know my wife was the right one until six months after we were married. I know this isn’t the point of your story entirely – but it’s worth mentioning. Fact is: the second you put someone up on a pedestal, he/she is looking down at you. That’s not gender specific. Nor is the “game” you’re talking about here. It’s about having confidence and self-awareness. Works for everyone everywhere.

        4. RustyLH

          Evan, how do you explain so many men saying that?

          Also, not everyone has the same perspective as you because you have training and education, and EXPERIENCE in this field that most men don’t. So of course you would see it very differently. But I really question that, “I knew she was the one six months after we were married.” really? You would marry somebody without knowing they were the one you wanted to spend the rest of your life with?

          Maybe you are confusing knowing you wanted that with knowing it would workout. My mother once confided in me that she had been hurt so many times, and disappointed so many times before meeting my dad that it took her 15 years of being married to him before realized that she felt 100% sure he would never hurt her.

          I remember thinking several things. I lost a bit of respect for her. I had always viewed her as strong, but that felt very weak to me. 15 years? It also seemed disrespectful to my dad…to me. I guess I felt that if you are paying attention to the other person, you will learn that much faster. Anyway, I would say that my mom probably knew that moment that she wanted my dad to marry her that she wanted him to never hurt her, but actually believing in her heart and mind that he would not came much later.

          So what I am saying is that a man could meet a woman at a party, like what he sees, then pay close attention to how she interacts with other people, and how she interacts with him, and then KNOW that he wants her. Oh sure, in the process of making that happen, he may find out things that changes his mind, or she may have other ideas, and he is back to the drawing board, but if it does work out, it makes perfect sense that he would look back and remember that where he is at is exactly where he wanted to be the day he met her and made the decision, “I want.”

          My point was that I think men and women are similar in that it is going to be very very very easy to appear to be very confident when you aren’t really into somebody. It only makes sense. Imagine watching a huge football game, maybe the Michigan Ohio State game. I’ll assume that you don’t care much about either team. I am a die hard Ohio State fan. Now suppose I invite you over to watch the game. If it is a very close game, and gets down to the last minute with the end uncertain, a casual observer will be able to tell which of us cares about the outcome, because I care and you don’t and that will be easy to see.

          It seems that these days, you can meet somebody that you very quickly become passionate about. But both men and women are told to hide that. Play it cool. I don’t think everyone is the same in this regard because where it may work to get a man, when a woman is doing that with some other guy, for me it is a turn off…if she is so good at it as to be successful. I don’t get passionate about women who play it cool. Maybe because for me, I will feed off of her interest a bit. It can work very well for me if I can see that she is very interested, and trying to keep a lid on it and failing miserably. That can be cute actually. But I don’t like aloof women, and if she is succeeding at playing it cool, she will come across as aloof.

          I have a really awesome story of a girl I met in Australia, my first time in Sydney. She was a 10. I didn’t think I could be more attracted to her. As it turns out, she, her sister, and her two friends were going to the same event I was going to. So, SHE, asked me to be her escort, but she was very nervous about asking me. My attraction for her doubled. To this day, I regret not pursuing her for a relationship. I never met anyone who could make me feel over the top like she could. And not surprisingly, that is due to the combination of her looks and the way she made me feel. If I knew then what I know now, I would have made her my focus, finished the time I had left on my contract, and then joined the Australian military, to make it feasible to move there. I have zero doubt that we would be together had I done that

      4. 273.1.4
        SparklingEmerald

        Rusty said “I’ve also seen women here advocate lying to a man they want to marry by having sex with other men but keep that a secret…”
         
        Rusty, that is ONE woman, not plural women.  She is the minority view on this blog.  She does not represent women in general or American women.  Most women abhor tactics like that.  That isn’t even what RR advocates.  She does advocate sexless dating of other men, and I can’t even get on board with that, as I find that very manipulative. (even “sexless” dating is unacceptable, because if you narrowly define sex as intercourse only, that leaves much room for physical intimacy, which is still cheating IMO)
        Of course, things are a bit different for me, than for a younger women desiring motherhood.  I’ve had my child and I am well beyond my child bearing years.  I’ve had two disappointing marriages, so marriage is no longer on my “must have” list.   In fact, for quite a while after my hubby betrayed me, marriage was on my “Must Flee from list”  But the passage of time, and some things  EMK has said about marriage has at least put in the realm of possibility for me, if I met a really awesome man who wanted to make it legal.  (EMK is a real cheerleader for marriage)
        As for players, I’ve walked away from a few of them since my latest divorce.  I don’t play games.
         
        As for men who mistreat me, I’ll walk, even if they started off treating me well (they usually do).  Even if we’ve made the legal comittment of marriage.  (and if I ever do say “I do” again, I will get a pre-nup, to protect us BOTH, and our children from other unions)

        1. SparklingEmerald

          Rusty said: “For men, this does not work and here is why. Women aren’t initially looking for the guy that makes her feel good. Not like that. In fact, if a guy makes you feel like that initially you become turned off. This is why the direct nice guy approach does not work. It gets you shot down. I believe what is going on, even if on a subconscious level is that if a guy is over the moon for you, something in you mind screams…”If he is that over the top for me, I must be able to do better.” One of the key elements in “Game” is to make the women feel she is not so special. To knock her down a peg or two. Knock her off her pedestal, Knock her off her high horse.”
          Rusty  -   Quit reading that PUA or MRA or Ask Men garbage.  
          If a woman is riding around on a high horse, don’t knock her off of it, move on and find a nice girl with her feet planted firmly on the ground.
          The guy I am seeing now is proof that nice guys don’t always finish last.  He hasn’t put me on a pedestal and he hasn’t knocked my down a peg.  We make each other feel good.  If he felt the need to “knock me down a peg”, I’d be gone. 
          No games playing here, just two people who like each other, are getting to know each other, and who knows . . . 
          Maybe I’m a freak of nature as a woman, but if I’m seeing a man, and I don’t feel good about it . . . I’m gone.

        2. RustyLH

          I don’t read MRA “crap” as you put it. But interesting that you call it crap. Is feminist stuff “crap?”

          But I have watched some of the PUA stuff, and first learned of it watching Dr. Phil, and it does work. But after looking into it a bit, I notice that some people have a lot of misconceptions about it.

          For instance, you say that if a man felt tried to knock you down a beg, you would walk away. I am saying that after watching it done, you don’t even know it is being done. Secondly, take a look at all of the messages being aimed at women in many different forms. The fact is many of you have unrealistic expectations. Often a good guy tries to talk to, maybe in a club or at a party, and you have your walls up so high, he has to do something just to get you to want to engage in conversation.

          I remember an older 80s movie, two women were getting themselves dolled up to go out to a club. When they finished, the one girl put her arm around the other as they looked at themselves in the mirror, and said, “Better than mortal men deserve.” Yeah, she needed to be knocked down a peg. Sorry, but no..not better than mortal men deserve. That’s just a movie but that is the very attitude that many men face in women. Again, I have seen this stuff work.

          We are also not talking about IN a relationship we are talking about a first meeting. My point was that with so many guys using this stuff, it could make a genuinely nice man, good man, confident man seem less so when his game appears to be less than the PUA. Again my point being that it genuinely appears to be very well tuned to tap into what women need to hear.

          I will fully admit that I am not a PUA. I tend to do much much better with women who have spent time around me. Women who have gotten to see who I really am. These women pursue me, not the other way around. Unfortunately, none of them are what I am looking for.

        3. SparklingEmerald

          Rusty asked   “I don’t read MRA “crap” as you put it. But interesting that you call it crap. Is feminist stuff “crap?”
          Even Evan told you to stop with MRA attitude, but here’s my opinion of the whole thing . . .   I think ANY website that promotes hatred of the opposite gender is “crap”.  If it’s women promoting man-hating or MRA groups promoting hatred of women.  It’s all crap.   There’s a reason I don’t like to call myself a feminist.  Not because I think women shouldn’t be allowed to vote, pursue careers, have equal credit access, etc. but because some groups pollute the term with a ton of misandry that I can’t tolerate.  Or complain about petty BS, or put down women like me, who like to dress feminine  (dresses, heels, make up, etc) and who stayed home for 5 years to be with my dear son.  Or promote laws that favor women in child custody decisions.    I don’t think all women who call themselves feminists promote misandry, hate stay at home moms, or think women should adopt the dress, hairstyles and mannerisms of men, but enough do, that I don’t want to be associated with the term.  I prefer to think of myself as a humanist anyway.  Even tho the far right wing fundamentalists have turned that into a dirty word as well.
          As far as you saying that some women need to be knocked down a peg, I call BS.  If a woman’s that stuck up, why bother ?  Why not find a nice girl who thinks mortal men are awesome, instead of some snooty bitch who needs to be knocked down a peg ?  Men complain that “nice guys” don’t get anywhere, then promote this crap about acting like a cocky douche bag & looking for a snooty bitch to knock down a peg.  Why not find a nice girl to begin with ?  Maybe it’s nice girls who finish last, because men are paying the big bucks to learn how to “neg” a bitch into the bedroom.
          And speaking of “snooty girls”, it could be that the girl isn’t really snooty, but she’s just not into a particular guy who is targeting her.  Maybe she doesn’t want to lead him on.   I don’t think insulting a woman (apparently with such skill that she doesn’t even know she’s being insulted) is going to get a girl who isn’t into a guy to suddenly like him.
          Also, I think the whole “You don’t understand PUA” is just another load of BS from the PUA industry itself.  Another way of trying to knock women down a peg.  If women say they don’t agree with PUA tactics, rather than acknowledge that she disagrees with the tactics, PUA just say she doesn’t “understand” it, thus implying that she’s just stupid. 

        4. RustyLH

          As I stated, I am not a PUA.  I stated that what they do works.  Also, not all of it is “negging.”  Negging is done when a girl has too high of an opinion of herself, or is basically giving off a not interested vibe…yeah she is talking to the guy but just not really giving it a chance because she has this huge wall up.  Unless Tim Tebow walks in, she’s not going to perk up.
          It’s often that girls will go into the club, look around and start eliminating guys…sort of ranking them.  Guys of course do this too.  So some PUA techniques seem to be used to make her realize that she may have misjudged you.  And, it is very likely that she is being unrealistic in eliminating the guys that would make a great partner for her while holding out for the guys that aren’t going to .
          You seem to be hung up on terminology.  Maybe it is better to say, if a girl is acting as if she is too good for him, the guy simply hold up a mirror and says, have a good long look…you aren’t out  of my league.  In my opinion, that is what the guy did with Jessica Alba on that TV show.  In an instant she went from a feeling of being too good for the guy to being made to face that fact that she is in fact quite human and mortal, and not too good for him.
          I should also note that while I am sure that a lot of guys go out to learn those PUA tactics so they can just be a PUA.  But I am also sure that some guys are just tired of striking out with quality women and want to find just one good quality woman.  I am leery of that because I still see it as being fake, and in the end, will she feel that she was duped into seeing you as more than you are.  I would rather just let a woman learn that I am a good guy and accept me for who I am.  Like I said, I seem to do very well with women who know the real me.  But it takes time to know the real me.  I don’t work on my “game” trying to be better at picking women up.
          Most of my ex-girlfriends and my ex-wife were much better than average looking.  Not perfect 10′s, but good looking women.  Not one of them that are fat.  I simply don’t have anything in common with fat women.  If a woman is fat, she isn’t going to want to hike/camp the Grand Canyon (on my bucket list.).  She isn’t going to want to go for long bike rides.  I’ve ridden my bike many many miles.  I’ve always been active.  I want a woman that will help be more active, not less.  Being in school, i really need a woman that can do that…get me away from my studies to go for an enjoyable walk, work out, go swimming, walk the beach, anything active.  I just started working out more because I now live 4 blocks from the school so no more 25 mile round trip bike rides.  So I put on some pounds.  Don’t like that, so I am doing something about it.  Nobody has to accept being overweight.  It’s a choice.   I choose not to be grossly overweight.  If I even put on some pounds and start to look overweight, I don’t like it and so do something about it.  I want the same thing in a woman.  In this area, I don’t like excuses, and that’s what most people have.

        5. SparklingEmerald

          Rusty LH said “Negging is done when a girl has too high of an opinion of herself, or is basically giving off a not interested vibe…yeah she is talking to the guy but just not really giving it a chance because she has this huge wall up.  Unless Tim Tebow walks in, she’s not going to perk up.
          It’s often that girls will go into the club, look around and start eliminating guys…sort of ranking them.  Guys of course do this too. (my note: yes we ALL do it, but in the PUA community, men are entitled to do this, women are not)  So some PUA techniques seem to be used to make her realize that she may have misjudged you.  And, it is very likely that she is being unrealistic in eliminating the guys that would make a great partner for her while holding out for the guys that aren’t going”
           
          ————————————————-
          That whole diatribe smacks of entitlement.  And making assumptions.  Perhaps when these PUA clowns are peacocking around in whatever clown suit de-jour they are wearing to call attention to themselves, maybe THAT’s the reason the girl just isn’t into him.  And you know, every time a girl isn’t interested in a guy, doesn’t mean she thinks she is “better” than him, but she just isn’t attracted to him. 
          If a guy refuses to approach a girl at a party, because he’s not interested, is it because he’s a snob that thinks he too good for her?  Should she go up to him and insult him to knock him down a peg ?
          Why is the man allowed to decide that a woman isn’t good looking enough to approach, and he’s still an OK guy, but if a girl isn’t sufficiently attracted to a guy, she’s a snob who needs to be taken down a peg or two ?  Why must all women give every man who approaches them “a chance” ?  Why is it assumed that she is somehow “wrong” to refuse his advances ?  Maybe he’s coming off as an arrogant douche bag himself ?  Maybe HE’S coming off as thinking HE is superior, and that’s what is turning the girl off, not that she thinks SHE is better than him.  Or maybe there is something overtly sexual about his approach, and she doesn’t like being treated like a piece of meat.  (or a “target” to use PUA terminology)
          PUA works with some girls (usually girls with low self esteem to begin with, not the snobs)  Of course, the internet communities only tell their “success” stories and probably make up a few whoppers along the way.
          And I noticed you didn’t answer my question, instead of trying to trick the so called “snooty girl” into bed, why not try and find a nice girl who doesn’t have walls to knock down to begin with ? 
          With the PUA community, it’s all a “game”.  The cute, sweet, “7″ girl who smiles and is responsive is not a challenging enough “target”.  They think that only girls who are 9′s or 10′s are good enough for them, so while they wouldn’t even dream of giving a nice girl who is a 7 or 8 a chance, then call the girl who is a 9 a snob in need of a good negging.  Doesn’t matter if the PUA is himself only a 6.  He has a sense of entitlement that all smoking hot women owe him a chance.  Instead of considering that it is his own arrogant sense of entitlement that is off putting to women, he simply makes his “target” in the wrong.  
          You know what else works too ?  Treating women like, you know, they are human, not trophies or targets  to be shot down by arrogant, entitled PUAs.
           
          I’m glad you stay in shape, since that is a (reasonable) requirement you have for a romantic partner.  I have seen some really fat men, go on an on in their diatribes against fat women.  I have personally known two very overweight men who were very vocal about their desire/entitlement for a slim attractive woman, even tho they were overweight and unattractive themselves.  I don’t really dislike these men for their weight problem but it is their sheer hypocrisy that turns me off. (and no, even if they weren’t routinely bashing fat women, I wouldn’t consider a grossly overweight man as a partner, because I wouldn’t be attracted, and I enjoy a somewhat active lifestyle myself )   I don’t mind a man with a few extra pounds, but I just can’t be with someone grossly overweight. 

  4. 274
    Karmic Equation

     

    An “ad hominem” attack from you, Chance (271.2)? I thought better of you.
    So you’re saying that it’s OK for a man to disrespect a woman, but a woman shouldn’t withdraw the ONE thing that a man values above even love — “monogamous sex” — to show him how much his disrespect hurts her?
     
    You’re right in that we don’t need to kill ants with a sledgehammer. However, if your only real weapon is a sledgehammer, why refrain from using it?
     
    And Ladies, you all heard it here. From this quorum of 5 men:
     
    “No man proposes to a woman who is dating other men.” - EMK 269.2
     
    “If you’re unwilling to commit to exclusively date before your engaged, then every intelligent, sane man will choose not to propose. He won’t even emotionally invest himself in the relationship.” - Karl R in response to 269.2.1
     

    “Your arguments that circle dating would work if the woman hides it from her partner frighten me.  A woman (or man) who would do that would be a prime candidate for future cheating, IMHO. It would definitely not inspire trustworthiness.” - Jeremy 269.4.1

     
    “As for circular dating. The last women I would ever give a marriage proposal is to a woman that is dating other men. So the simple fact is, if a woman starts right off telling me that she wants to circular date, I will do one of two things. Continue to date her for the companionship while I look for somebody worth committing to, or I will drop her flat right there. Jeremy is right. It is up to her to prove that she is worth making that huge commitment to.” - RustyLH in response to 269.4.1
     
    “A woman would need to be monogamous in order for me to propose. Heck,  a woman would need to be monogamous in order for me to introduce her to my friends/family.” - John 271.1
     
    Anyone mention love? Appreciation? Supportiveness? Being secure? Being a good mother to his children? Nope. Not a one.
     
    So you can love a man to pieces, be devoted to him with all your being, be supportive of his dreams, be appreciative of his efforts — but don’t expect a proposal from him unless you ALSO give him monogamous sex on top of all that. It’s not enough that you give him all the above PLUS sex. But it must needs be MONOGAMOUS sex.
     
    So what does that mean, ladies? It means that what men value most in women is not love, appreciation, supportiveness, not even sex, but rather MONOGAMOUS sex.
     
    So why are so many women so quick to offer MONOGAMOUS sex to men — something that men prize SO HIGHLY — that they would not PROPOSE without it…WITHOUT DEMANDING SOMETHING OF EQUIVALENT VALUE IN RETURN?
     
    What do YOU prize as highly? Shouldn’t it be MARRIAGE that you trade for MONOGAMOUS sex? If he won’t give you marriage without monogamous sex from you, then why should you give him monogamous sex without AT LEAST the PROMISE of marriage (e.g., engagement?) — If you’re happy that he simply agrees to be your boyfriend before sex — THAT is “settling” in a BIG WAY — and this male-dominated culture has you believing you’ve won something of value when he’s getting monogamous sex from you with no guarantee of a future to you. And most women have happily bought in to that way of thinking without even questioning it.
     
    Think outside the box for a change. Things aren’t always what they seem. You don’t need to be paranoid. Just aware.

     

    1. 274.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      You usually make sense, Karmic, but I really have no idea what you’re doing here.

      You’re suggesting that women hold out sex until engagement? Like the 1950′s? I don’t think women want to do that. I don’t think men want to do that.

      Men are telling you what we want. We want to propose to our monogamous girlfriends with whom we’re having sex. That’s pretty much the way everyone does it anyway. The only reason we’re having this discussion is because Rori (falsely) thinks that men will propose to non-monogamous women. Now you’re suggesting we propose to women before we have sex at all?

      Here’s one thing I’ve learned in a decade as a dating coach – advice doesn’t work unless it’s acceptable to BOTH genders. Your advice and Rori’s advice sounds like it was lab-tested on women but never approved by men.

      1. 274.1.1
        Karmic Equation

         

        “You’re suggesting that women hold out sex until engagement?”
        Not at all. I wouldn’t have any fun under that scenario! haha — I’m suggesting women don’t go offering/requiring sexclusivity until engagement. She should have sex with him — all the time, as much as they both can stand :) Just not monogamously and don’t advertise she’s dating other guys.
        Rori Raye’s CD philosophy is for women who CANNOT or WILL NOT break up with their BAD BOYFRIENDS, for whatever reason (e.g., loves him too much, can’t stand to live without him, yada yada) — those women need to make themselves circular date as the step before breaking up.
        Personally, I’d break up first, but some women can’t do that cold turkey. Those women need to do something if their boyfriends are being bad boyfriends (and to whom she’s communicated her concerns) but just can’t/won’t break up with him. She can tell him she’s cd’ing if she wants to. But if she TELLS him she’s circular dating THEN she’s trying to blackmail him into changing, imo. If she doesn’t tell him, treats him the same, while CD’ing then there is no blackmail. He can change – or not- as he sees fit. He just no longer has her monogamy because he broke the bf/gf contract by refusing to meet her needs.

         

        1. John

          KarmicEquation said:
          Anyone mention love? Appreciation? Supportiveness? Being secure? Being a good mother to his children? Nope. Not a one.
           
          Karmic- the reason nobody mentioned those things is because that’s not what the topic of the post is about. If the topic was about the importance of being supportive, that would have been discussed. The monogamous part in that case wouldn’t be mentioned but it surely would be implied without having to say it. Same thing here.
           
          KarmicEquation said:
          Just not monogamously and don’t advertise she’s dating other guys.
          Karmic- You have mentioned this sort of thing in prior posts. But do you really think that guys are that dumb that they couldn’t figure out after a while she is dating other guys? I can understand hiding it and having the guy be oblivious for a month or two. But if you are on the verge of proposing, then we are talking many months, if not years. You really think a guy wouldn’t be able to suspect and figure out she was dating other men even if she didn’t advertise it?
           
           

        2. Jeremy

          Ah, I am beginning to get it (I think).  So, in your mind, circle dating is not a ploy to find a man who will be willing to propose, but rather an exit strategy for someone who wants to break up but needs another relationship to do it?  Not at all unlike someone who wants to divorce their spouse and has an affair to “give themselves permission.”  I happen not to think highly of this strategy, but that is just my own opinion. 
            I wonder what would happen, though, if a woman was covertly circle-dating and got a proposal from a man who thought she was being monogamous (ie. she was lying to him the whole time/hiding the truth).  If he found out about it, do you think he would keep the engagement?  I think he would not.  I think he would feel pretty betrayed, and that he would be justified in that feeling (what, with the lying and all).
           
          Or are you hoping that he won’t find out, and that the future marriage will be based on a lie?
           
          It seems, from some of your past arguments, that you are putting the horse very much in front of the cart.  Demanding commitment (in the form of engagement/marriage) before adequate information can be gathered to ensure the wisdom of the commitment.  The difference between the woman “gifting” the man with monogamous sex, and the man “gifting” the woman with a proposal (I hesitate to use those terms, but this seems to be how you view it) – is that the man’s “gift” is perpetual whereas the woman’s can be withdrawn at her discretion with no legal, moral, or financial consequences to her.  We are not comparing apples to apples here, Karmic.
           
          It is interesting that, as I understand your comments, you equate not having proposed marriage with being a “bad boyfriend.”  One can be an EXCELLENT boyfriend – loving, attentive to her needs, supportive of her dreams, sexually giving, etc. – and still not be ready to commit to marriage because one is still uncertain if she is what he is ultimately looking for in a wife and mother for his future kids (if he even knows what that would look like at that point in his life).  It is one thing to say that she has the right to break up with him for not being certain, but another thing entirely to accuse him of being a bad boyfriend and go out and cheat on him behind his back.
           
          Regardless, I agree with EMK.  If the purpose of circle-dating is to find a husband, no man will commit marriage to a woman who is still dating around (unless he has very low self-opinion or her income is higher and he is a gold-digger).  If, as you say, it is simply an exit strategy – then I may think it is unethical, but at that point it really doesn’t matter so much what the man in the relationship thinks, since he is about to be dumped anyway.
           

    2. 274.2
      RustyLH

      Karmic said – Anyone mention love? Appreciation? Supportiveness? Being secure? Being a good mother to his children? Nope. Not a one.

      So you can love a man to pieces, be devoted to him with all your being, be supportive of his dreams, be appreciative of his efforts — but don’t expect a proposal from him unless you ALSO give him monogamous sex on top of all that. It’s not enough that you give him all the above PLUS sex. But it must needs be MONOGAMOUS sex.

      You did a whole lot of assuming right there. Let’s look at my post that you quoted.

      As for circular dating. The last women I would ever give a marriage proposal is to a woman that is dating other men. So the simple fact is, if a woman starts right off telling me that she wants to circular date, I will do one of two things. Continue to date her for the companionship while I look for somebody worth committing to, or I will drop her flat right there. Jeremy is right. It is up to her to prove that she is worth making that huge commitment to.” – RustyLH in response to 269.4.1

      First of all, notice that I never said monogamous. I don’t assume that we will be having sex. I do, however, assume that she will not be having sex with anybody else.

      You assume that I do not expect: Love, Appreciation, Support, Being secure, Respect, Patience, Kindness. OK, first of all, I am going to assume this was a joke, because I refuse to believe you are that dumb.

      You see, we weren’t discussing Love, Appreciation, Support, Being Secure, Respect, Kindness, etc… We were discussing circular dating. Circular dating. Circular dating. Circular dating? Understanding yet? We weren’t discussing anything but whether a man would, or should propose to a woman who was not exclusively dating him. You and some others seem to assume that automatically includes sex. I only assume that if sex is involved, it is monogamous. And frankly, I never slept with more than one woman at a time, I think it’s nasty that you would gladly sleep with more than one man at a time. How special. You also assume incorrectly that a man wouldn’t notice that you are cheating. I can assure you of one thing, it better be a guy that is nothing more than a booty call if you even want a chance of pulling that off long term, because he is going to have to know his place and be willing to slink around, sneaking into your house late at night, while parking 3 blocks away. He’s going to have to be willing to never go on a date.

      Cheaters always get caught, not usually right away, but after a pattern is noticed, or somebody just happens to see something, like you out at a restaurant with some other man and he kisses you, and you both hold hands leaving, etc..

      You seem to have a problem. You seem to assume that men are inferior to you. You seem to think that men are stupid and you are so smart and clever that you could hide your cheating from those poor dumb men.

      Please, please, if you ever meet a man in a dating site with Rusty in his name, please do not interact with him on the off chance that it is me. I find it highly disrespectful, and disturbing that you would think it is OK to lie to a man you supposedly love and want a relationship with…especially about something as important as sex. And, do so simply because you haven’t gotten what you want on your own selfish timeline. We’ve talked about selfishness on this blog. That’s about as selfish as it gets.

      Notice that men keep saying that they need time to become comfortable that you are somebody worth taking that huge risk for. What you showed right there is that they are completely justified in doing so. They have much to fear…there are many wolves in sheep’s clothing out there, pretending to be sweet loving women.

    3. 274.3
      Chance

      “An “ad hominem” attack from you, Chance (271.2)? I thought better of you.”


      Karmic, I can assure you that my post wasn’t meant as an ad hominem attack.  If you want the truth, I don’t think you actually believe that cheating on a partner (let alone w/his or her best friend) is an acceptable route to take because I think that you’re too smart and logical to be able to actually justify it in your mind.  This is why I chose to use the phrase “makes you come across” like someone who’s trying to use women’s liberation as justification to stop treating people with common decency.  The choice of words wasn’t an accident as I didn’t want to accuse you of doing such a thing.  It is my belief that you’re trying to make a point, although I’m not 100% sure what that point is.  However, I believe you’ve missed the mark this time around (I’ll explain below).  So, I’m here to say that you’re better than this, so step it up.  ;)
       
       
      “So you’re saying that it’s OK for a man to disrespect a woman, but a woman shouldn’t withdraw the ONE thing that a man values above even love — “monogamous sex” — to show him how much his disrespect hurts her?
       
      Nope, that’s not what I’m saying at all.  However, we differ in our approach:  you appear to be advocating for women to remove the “monogamous” from “monogamous sex”, while I am advocating that women remove the “sex” altogether.  If a woman isn’t getting her needs met, then she should communicate her needs in a clear and non-confrontational manner.  Then, if she still isn’t getting her needs met, she should leave him.  What is more liberating than that?  It.  Really.  Is.  That.  Simple.
       
      You say that your advice to cheat is for the women who can’t leave their man for one reason or another.  However, if a woman isn’t confident or independent enough to leave a man who doesn’t respect her, this is a serious problem that needs to be corrected.  Unfortunately, your advice does nothing to correct the problem because it doesn’t give her the confidence she needs to leave him and find a new man who does respect her, and it will cause all of the men involved in this love triangle/quadrilateral/pentagon to respect her less.  The advice just serves as an enabling device to perpetuate an unhealthy relationship on one hand, and a series of dead-end flings on the other.  EMK preaches day-in and day-out that women should take control and be the CEO’s of their romantic lives, and I think that your advice is diametrically opposed to this message.

  5. 275
    Dede

    Evan I agree wholeheartedly with you.  I  believe in much of what Rori has to say and I agree with many of her ideas . She does wonders to boost women’s self esteem and help them realize finding love begins with love and respect for oneself – BUT I think she misses the mark when she encourages women to keep dating others until marriage. I can understand that early on it is a good idea to keep irons in the fire and not tie yourself to one person – date others and slowly but surely they will begin to weed out as you grow more serious and begin to develop a relationship with one of them.  Which also leads me to ask, “how do you develop a relationship with one, when others are in the picture”?  It is like the the old saying “too many hands spoil the soup”!   There is also a double standard in this concept  -  if I am not mistaken this circular dating idea does not apply to the man – in other words if we find out that he is still seeing other women this is a clear indication that he is not sincere and we should prepare to move on.  Why play theses games?   

  6. 276
    Chris

    Thank you Evan,

    I’ve been dating for the last 10 years following a divorce.  Until recently, I made the same mistake over and over.  I would meet Mr. Nice GUY .. after 2-3 dates we were both “exclusive” and not dating anyone else.  With the exception of a few longer term relationships, within 3 months all of the things that made us incompatible reared their ugly heads..  The breakup happens, I bury myself in my work or projects until I am ready to date again… 10 years have gone by with the same mistake.  

    NOW, I keep my options open and take my time getting to know the person I am dating.  I will not get into an exclusive relationship sooner than 6 months but when I do, I  would expect to be exclusive and not date anyone else. I would expect that from the man I am dating as well.  I don’t believe that you should “Get a Ring on it” before being exclusive.  How can you build a relationship otherwise?  Remaining in an open relationship by Circular Dating until you get a marriage proposal sounds more like manipulation to me. 

    Just my thoughts… Chris 

      
      

    1. 276.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Chris, if you won’t become his girlfriend for 6 months, you’re going to be eliminating the 95% of men who want to be exclusive in the first 2 months. Don’t keep up your patterns of mistakes to protect yourself. Let down the wall, date men, become exclusive, and if you’re not meant to be, you can always break up. But you will have virtually no options for boyfriends if you make him wait 6 months for you.

  7. 277
    k2012

    well, well, well, I am glad I found this article Evan. I follow up three coaches work-Rori, Jonathon and u, Evan. I met a man online who is coming to my country to meet me. Rori was the first coach I followed up extensively and I really like her circular dating technique. However, like u Evan, I didn’t agree when she said u must circular date until u got the ring. I didn’t agree with that part at all. I am single and looking for a boyfriend, ok. I have one prospect, the guy who is coming to my country to meet me. I am thinking of linking up with a matchmaker by monthend in an effort to find two more guys to date. However, Evan, when I find a boyfriend, I am not going to circular date. When one of the men starts stepping up and claim me as their own, (even if I don’t get the ring and that’s takes time), I am focusing on that man. I wouldn’t bother to circular date at that time. NO!  Definitely NO. As u said, that now would sound like cheating. Just tonight, I started wondering how u, Evan feel about circular dating as I was just on Rori”s page. reading up on it again, so I know how to do it. U see, I know u all as coaches want the best for us women. u all do. But all the advice that u, Rori and Jonathon give, I pick out the parts that make sense(no disrespect here ) that will work for ME. I cant imagine telling a man who I am involved in a relationship with, that I am going to circular date. NOPE. Its okay for the early stages of dating, but as soon as one of the men step up and pronounce u their girlfriend, circular dating would stop right there with me. Circular date your boyfriend and see him walk right through the door. Evan I saw someone writing about the disadvantages of circular dating, after I googled it and this was where I found your article. Glad I found it. Good article.

  8. 278
    Caroline

    Thank you for restoring the balance on this issue.
    I would add that a trait of many abusive spouses in the early stages, in addition to charm, is the urge to hook their new partner into a relationship (shared house/finances/kids/marriage) very quickly, after which they proceed to isolating them, etc etc.  It’s one of the first steps in the black miracle of domestic abuse.

  9. 279
    Isa

    Thank you so much dear Evan.
    This is what I think and believe too. I am dating a most wonderful good man who had to face many issues with his women/girl friends all his life and therefore has built a concrete wall around his heart.
    His insecurity lies in trust, real love and not to be taken advantage for what he has achieved (excellent and important family and more, a real “catch”).
    I can see how he is “testing” me in a good way so to get to know me as a person and most important how I behave also in terms of men.
    To mention is that men are drawn to me and in addition I am an outgoing, happy women, talking to “everybody”.At the outer look this could give him and has given him the impression of me being superficial, dating more than one man and just having “fun”.
    Even though I like Rory and her “feeling” messages a lot I have never considered to circular date while being in this on both side exclusive relations ship that has started 13 weeks ago. It would definitely destroy it at once with this amazing man who has to slowly but steadily and with a lot of time let down his guard and start to trust me. This is simply impossible within a few months. Same with me. I need time to see beyond the pinkish feelings and to get a person, even more the man of my heart to know, see how he reacts, if he sticks to his words, how he treats me, if he leaves me enough space for my “own” life and a lot more.
    To conclude: I 100% agree with you Evan. Circular dating and this even communicated to the man can be a relationship killer. It would be for me too if he would tell me he is circular dating! That is the main reason we both agreed to be exclusive with each others upfront.

  10. 280
    Ms Di

    Great piece! I just finished reading her book and while a lot of stuff she talks about makes sense, this Cdating didnt. It’s great to get a man’s perspective on dating, relationships and marriage. As women we tend to ask other women what men want in relationships instead of asking men what they want. 

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