The Blind Spot In Rori Raye’s Circular Dating

The Blind Spot In Rori Raye’s Circular DatingIf you saw a woman who was about to drive off a cliff, would you tell her?

You’re standing on the sidewalk. She’s plowing over orange cones and through the yellow police tape towards a towering precipice.

Yeah, you’d try to stop her.

And the faster she accelerates, the more frantic you get, watching her willingly (and confusingly) speed towards the chasm.

I’m even gonna bet that if you were witnessing something so damaging, you might even put yourself in harm’s way to protect the innocent drivers. Maybe you wouldn’t dive in front of the car, but you’d run and wave your hands and scream at the top of your lungs – anything to avert what is sure to be a serious accident.

This is what it felt like to be featured on my friend Rori Raye’s blog last week, in a post entitled “The Circular Dating Argument”.

I went there to save some lives – and took quite a beating for doing so.

First of all, I need to establish that Rori’s a good friend and I have no doubt that all the women who read her are kind people. Over the past few years, Rori’s products have taken off like a rocket, inspiring a legion of passionate followers. Any time I’d like to think that I’m making a big impact on the world over here, I remember that Rori’s mailing list dwarfs mine.

Which is why I’m always flattered when Rori reaches out to tell me she enjoyed one of my newsletters or wants to mention me in a blog post.

And after an interview I did with her last week for her audio series, we engaged in an email dialogue about one of her signature concepts: Circular Dating.

The definition on her site is benign: “Dating several men (at least 3) all at the same time. You accept the date with the man who calls first, and do not shuffle times or even think about manipulating the schedule in order to get dates with the man you like best, or dates to the most fun places. Circular dating is about Free Therapy and practicing Rori Raye Tools. It is not about finding Mr. Right.”

Nothing to argue with here. What Rori calls Circular Dating, I just call “dating”. Be proactive, date lots of people, have fun, don’t get too excited about a promising prospect – we’re all on the same page so far.

Where this concept of Circular Dating breaks down for me, however – the reason I wanted to guest blog on her website – is this idea:

The concept of circular dating (CDing) is ostensibly supposed to last all the way up until you’re married. Meaning: a woman can tell her devoted boyfriend of a year that since she doesn’t yet have a ring, she’s going to see other people.

You hear that sound? It’s a record scratching.

Yes, there’s something highly discordant about this principle, and I haven’t been able to get it out of my head for nearly a week.

Believe me, I understand the emotion behind Circular Dating. All you have to do is read this blog to know that I am intimately familiar with the frustrations and fears of women. And because way too many women have invested way too much time in men who decided that they didn’t want to get married, CDing is, presumably, a way of protecting oneself.

My argument against circular dating has nothing to do with a failure to understand women’s needs, a defense of selfish commitmentphobes, or a personal axe to grind against Rori or her readers. My argument against circular dating centers around only one simple premise: it doesn’t work when you have a good boyfriend.

My argument against circular dating centers around only one simple premise: it doesn’t work when you have a good boyfriend.

If you have a boyfriend who is consistent and kind and also wants to be married one day, and you tell him, in a moment of insecurity, that you can’t stand waiting any longer – “it’s been seven months and we’re not engaged, so I’m going to start seeing other men” – you’re essentially taking a dagger to the heart of your relationship. And if you have a boyfriend who isn’t consistent, isn’t kind, and never wants to be married, there’s no need to “circular date”. Just dump him and find the man who treats you well and ultimately wants a commitment. And yes, it is that simple.

The friction here comes from women who want to KNOW that their investment in a man is going to lead to marriage. The problem is that you CAN’T know. All you can know is whether he’s a man of high character, a man who has spoken of a future, a man whose heart is in the right place. Beyond that, there are no guarantees.

No one wants to feel insecure and off-balance. No one wants to waste time on a dead-end relationship. But just because a man isn’t positive he wants to marry you doesn’t mean you break the bonds of exclusivity. If I’m your boyfriend and you start seeing other men, you are essentially cheating on me, and it doesn’t make me feel better about you, our relationship, or our future together.

That’s pretty much the gist of what I said to Rori’s readers. I used metaphors, anecdotes, capital letters, and wrote the way I normally do on here – blunt, powerful, and very confident that what I wrote has a sound basis in truth.

Not my opinion. Truth. About how men think. Good men. The men you want.

If you start to “circular date” when you have a man who is on the precipice of wanting to spend the rest of his life with you, you might actually be driving him away.

And try though I might, I can’t think of too many confident men who feel that their exclusive girlfriend has a right to date other men after 6 months, 12 months or 18 months, merely because she’s insecure that he might not marry her. She can certainly dump him (which is a good strategy when you’re getting past three years of dating.) But seeing other guys while you’re boyfriend/girlfriend doesn’t sit well with me. I speak for most men and remain firm in this sentiment. (By the way, if there are any guys here who are cool with your girlfriend dating other guys as a way of protecting herself and forcing you to shit or get off the pot, please speak up. I’m open to being wrong here.)

Predictably, then came the blowback.

I won’t go into details but I was told in a number of ways that I was wrong. That I was arrogant. That I don’t understand women. That I was verbally abusive. That my marriage was suspect. That my wife was a doormat. And so on and so forth.

I tried, in vain, to reiterate my point of view – which is that I’m offering a constructive, not destructive, criticism of circular dating. I don’t stand to gain anything from “being right” in this situation. But if you start to “circular date” when you have a man who is on the precipice of wanting to spend the rest of his life with you, you might actually be driving him away. And that’s dangerous if you believe that this is solid advice that considers how men think. It is not. It doesn’t consider how men think. It’s advice that may make women feel better, but doesn’t do what it’s designed to do. Which is why I felt like the guy standing on the side of the road, waving his arms, determined not to let any women go over the cliff with this well-intentioned, but ultimately misguided, take on how to get a man to commit.

Naturally, I got run over in the process. C’est la vie. At least I tried. But since I still believe my take on the male mindset is equally valuable as any woman’s take on it, I wanted to respond to the main areas in which Rori’s readers falsely dissected and misinterpreted my argument:

He should know if he wants to marry me. No, actually, he should not. That’s why men date. To figure out, over the course of time, if he wants to spend the next 35 years with you. And that’s exactly what you should be doing with him, as well. Nobody told you to invest three years of your life in a man who has stated that he never wants to get married. Definitely not me. But if you have a boyfriend who wants to get married one day, but he’s not sure if it’s to you, your best bet is to give him lots of time to figure it out before proposing. If you’re under 40, we’re talking at least two years. Over 40, at least a year. But trying to make him figure out the answer to something that he couldn’t possibly know is a recipe for a breakup. Men don’t respond well to being told what to do. As Dr. Pat Allen said: “If you tell a man what to do and he listens, he isn’t a man.” I’m not stating whether this is fair or not; I’m merely stating that it’s true.

Some men just know after 3 months, therefore all men should know that fast. Actually, anyone who claims to “just know” that it’s “right” after one week, one month, or three months has a very selective memory. I “just knew” that my girlfriend in 2003 was right for me. She dumped me after 6 months. Same with the one in 2004, who dumped me after 3 months. So much for “just knowing”. Look back at your history. You have a similar story.

The right man knows right away. You might have a strong chemistry and a great feeling about a guy, but lifetime relationships take years to forge, not months. Lots of marriages began with the man knowing right away. And a majority of those marriages ended in divorce. Be careful about rushing into things: you very well could marry the wrong man – where if you dated him for two years, you would have learned more about him and potentially averted a mistake.

A man who is right for you would not risk losing you to another man while he makes up his mind. Au contraire: the right man is a responsible decision-maker. And a responsible decision-maker doesn’t make the decision to marry a woman until he knows her for a really long time and can see how she handles life situations. He may rightfully determine that if his exclusive girlfriend handles her insecurity by insisting that she “circular date”, he could find a healthier relationship without all the drama, fear, and insecurity.

Playing it cool is denying my true feelings. We don’t have to live our lives as mere victims of our feelings. After all, just because you feel something doesn’t necessarily make it true. I had one girlfriend who nearly had a heart attack every time I picked up a Maxim magazine. She may have been entitled to her feelings, but her insecurity that I couldn’t be attracted to her if I was also attracted to a model ended up destroying our relationship. Even her own therapist told her that I was a normal guy and that she should temper her jealous overreactions. So while I’ll never tell you that you’re not entitled to feel what you feel, if what you feel (anxiety, fear, insecurity) becomes your boyfriend’s problem – when he hasn’t done anything wrong – it’s really on you to deal in a healthier fashion.

I don’t want to be the girlfriend, I want to be the wife! You don’t become the wife unless you’re the amazing girlfriend first. If you think that he should marry you because you’ve been together for three months and you love him, then he should have also proposed to about a dozen women he dated for three months before you. Right?

I should be allowed to CD ‘til my wedding day because I don’t want just “a boyfriend”. No one is asserting that you should be content to be merely a girlfriend forever. All I’m saying is that if you’re with a man who believes in marriage, you have to allow him to come to his own conclusions over time. And if you think you’re restricting your options by being faithful, then, by all means, circular date. You’ll just end up losing your boyfriend when you do.

A man who doesn’t marry you is selfish. A man who knowingly strings you along for three years when he has no intention of ever marrying you IS selfish. I’m not talking about that guy. I’m talking about men who do want to get married, but aren’t positive if they want to marry YOU. If I didn’t marry my wife after 16 months of dating, it wouldn’t mean that I knowingly used her for that time. It simply meant that I was trying on the relationship for size to see if it fit for the rest of my life and decided it wasn’t a good fit. MOST relationships break up because either the man or the woman comes to this conclusion. Yet MOST people end up getting married one day. This seems to conclude that most men are marriage minded; they might not necessarily want to marry you, though.

Your way gives men all the power, Evan. By letting men take their time to decide if they want to get married, women are relegated to become the selectee and not the selector. Not remotely true. Who said he has the power? Aren’t you 50% of the relationship? Aren’t you thinking clearly about his flaws and whether you can live with them for the rest of your life? Don’t you have the right to break up with him at any point if you conclude that he’s a good guy, but not your soulmate? Why, yes you can! Which means that BOTH parties are taking an equal risk when committing to each other without a ring – not just you.

CDing gives me my power back over a hot-and-cold man. Maybe it does. But I have a slightly different take on this. A) Don’t date other men. Dump him. Walk away with your head held high and say, “I really care about you, but I’m not getting my needs met here. This is too inconsistent for me and I need to feel safe. Good luck.” And don’t look back. THAT’s how you handle the hot and cold guy. If he comes running back, you may have a boyfriend. If he lets you go, he’s not the guy for you. B) Do you really WANT a guy who is so hot and cold, who leaves you walking on eggshells? Do you really want to be in that relationship for 35 years, where he’s so selfish or such a poor communicator that you never know where you stand? If so, then do everything in your power to get him back – including CDing. But the smart money – given that people rarely change – is on dumping him.

Why should one man monopolize my time? I want to explore all my options. I’m still having trouble fathoming this: the woman ostensibly wants a husband but doesn’t want a boyfriend because she should be out playing the field. Um, I hate to tell you, but the only guy who’s ever going to propose to you is the guy who has been your exclusive boyfriend for a year-plus. And if you refuse to stop exploring your options, no guy worth his salt is gonna stick around. This is the epitome of false female empowerment. You’re not keeping your options open if you’re dating other guys outside of your boyfriend: you’re cheating.

Why should I spend 5-10 years with a man without a ring? Beats the hell out of me. Everything I’ve ever written tells you to leave a guy who a) never wants to get married or b) doesn’t propose to you in a reasonable amount of time.

Which is a great opportunity for me to distinguish between a man’s reasonable amount of time and a woman’s reasonable amount of time…

Waiting investing and being vulnerable is the best way to find loveIt terrifies me to potentially spend 2 years with a man without a ring. How am I supposed to know which is which? I can completely empathize with your fear. Millions of relationships have endured for far too long, even though they were dead ends. Especially when they’re dead ends. Once you’ve sunk enough time into anything, it’s hard to walk away, even if the relationship isn’t right. So my contention isn’t that it’s easy to be in a relationship when there’s no guarantee of a happy ending. It’s difficult and scary and insecure and all those other feelings you associate with being in limbo. My contention is simply that waiting, investing, and being vulnerable is the BEST way to find love. At the very least, it’s far superior to being fearful and insecure, to the point that you break up with a marriage-oriented man after four months because he can’t guarantee you a ring.

Once again, I’m not basing this on my personal feelings about this. I’m basing this on common principles of human behavior: the way things ARE instead of how we WANT them to be.

My contention is simply that waiting, investing, and being vulnerable is the BEST way to find love.

Sure, it’s scary to be with a guy for 24 months and not have a ring. But the only way you GET the ring is by investing 24 months and being the kind of woman that he can’t imagine living without. If you start to make waves about how nervous you are after three months, six months, one year, etc… you’re putting a lot of pressure on the man before HE’S ready to make his decision.

And that’s the one thing that the Rori followers almost universally did NOT seem to get – that 50% of the relationship is about what HE wants. I know Rori’s message is about female empowerment, having confidence, etc. But if you’re tone deaf to your partner’s needs, you’re going to find yourself without a partner.

Same as the guy who tries too hard to get laid on the first date.

Same as the guy who thinks it’s fair that you pick up the check because you wrote to him online and make more money.

Same as the guy who never wants to hear about your day and only wants to talk about his…

This may or may not be a bad guy – but his refusal to understand your needs means that he will probably alienate you and lose the prospect of dating you.

And just because YOU want him to know that he wants to marry you within eight months doesn’t mean that HE’s going to know.

Case in point: I have five close friends who have gotten married in the past three years.

We are all college educated, literate, six-figure earners. We are readers, we are sports fans, and we dream of having families. We’re very comfortable around women, yet none of us would be termed an “alpha male”. We’re nice Jewish boys.

Every single one of these men – all GREAT catches – waited 3 years before proposing. Three of them even have older wives – 40, 41 years old – just like I do.

Why did it take so long?

Because they take marriage very seriously.

Because they didn’t want to make a huge mistake.

Because they really wanted to be POSITIVE before buying a diamond ring.

And if dating for two years, moving in together, and proposing when they felt it was right meant that the men felt confident going into their marriage, it seems to me that all five women who did it “my way” by playing it cool ended up WINNING.

They got married. They got the guys they wanted.

By playing it cool, not getting consumed by insecurity, and trusting that the man that you love does NOT want to hurt you, you allow him to choose you on his timetable, instead of putting pressure on him to choose before he’s ready.

However, the ONLY way that all of us got married was because our girlfriends DIDN’T start dating other men when we were together.

If they DID start dating other men when we were together, the relationships would have been undermined – and, likely, destroyed. CDing wouldn’t make me feel closer to my wife. It wouldn’t make me feel like like I was losing my soulmate. It would make me feel like I’m losing someone who has no respect for my timetable, and is making a threat that is completely tone-deaf to my needs.

By playing it cool, not getting consumed by insecurity, and trusting that the man that you love does NOT want to hurt you, you allow him to choose you on his timetable, instead of putting pressure on him to choose before he’s ready.

So even though the idea behind Rori’s Circular Dating is to establish self-love and healthy boundaries, dating other men when you have a good, marriage-oriented boyfriend is simply NOT EFFECTIVE. And if you don’t have a good, marriage-oriented boyfriend, I submit that you should break up with him. Who knows? Maybe that’s the only difference between Rori and me.

Taken to its extreme – which is what I’m talking about here – Circular Dating is a fear-based mechanism to protect women from commitmentphobes – yet it will alienate any man who is rightfully wants to take his time to figure out if he wants to spend the rest of his life with you.

To sum up, you should date around all you want until you have a boyfriend.
But once you have a boyfriend, the ONLY way to make it a healthy relationship is to TRUST. Your fears about wasting time only indicate that you believe that he is not a good enough man to want what is best for both of you.

You know the only guy among my friends who got engaged before 3 years? Me.

Of course, that’s because I’m a sensitive guy who spends every waking second listening to women’s needs and the last thing I wanted to do was waste my wife’s biological clock on my inner turmoil. After proposing to her in 16 months (half the time of my friends’ courtships, twice as long as most Rori fans seem to think it should take), I still wasn’t “positive”. But since I’d dated hundreds of women, and coached thousands more, I figured I was making a highly informed decision about my future. It turned out to be the right one and we’re the happiest couple we know.

Yet if a man had a marriage go bust, has been burned by relationships before, or has very little experience with women, so that he doesn’t really know WHAT he’s looking for, it will take him a LONG TIME to figure out if he wants to marry you.

I implore you, from the bottom of my heart, to allot him that time.

He’s a good man. He doesn’t want to hurt you. He just wants to be sure.

Playing it cool certainly doesn’t guarantee marriage, but it DOES maximize your chance of marriage.

And, as a dating coach for women, that’s really what I’m here for – to help you make good, informed decisions that will be effective in landing the man of your dreams.

Whether you’ve been reading me for a long time, or if you’re a Rori fan who just came over here for the first time today, I hope that my intentions are clear:

I’m YOUR advocate. I speak on YOUR behalf, not on behalf of men.

But just like a man can’t have a successful relationship if he’s ignoring your needs, you can’t have a successful relationship and ignore what your man is thinking.

I hope you’ll highly consider this respectful rebuttal from an informed male perspective and we can all go back to finding love once again.

Warmest wishes,

Evan

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Comments:

  1. 91
    Venus

    I believe that a woman with a healthy sense of self esteem, self worth and integrity will dump a guy who has persistent doubts about her rather than engage in what appears to be manipulative gameplaying of CD.   Why exactly would you want to be with such a person anyway.  Either of you.  Makes me wonder what happens after the wedding when his doubts of whether he chose “the right one” persists.  Whether there is some underlying resentment on his part for being “played”  into a position that he was uncertain of.  I would dump the guy and start looking for someone who KNOWS how he feels about me without being gamed, pressured or manipulated into taking a position.   

    To be clear, I totally agree that a woman should have a life outside of her significant other.  I just don’t think this should include dating other guys if you are exclusive. 

  2. 92
    Maeve

    @Mercedes:
     

    I don’t know how to explain it except to say we all know that twinge of insecurity when our man pulls away even the slightest bit.  Like he isn’t being as affectionate as he used to be or he’s off on his own train of thought and not listening to us as intently or he’s spending a ton of time playing video games, etc.  Our crazy voices can get us all messed up and wondering “what’s wrong” and “what did I do” and “I must not be good enough” and “is he cheating on me” and “I know I’ve gained weight but…” and “oh God I need to call my sister!!!!”, etc.
    “When those voices pop up, if we are already in the habit of and comfortable with the concept of circular dating, then instead of listening to the negatives or getting anxious over the “what-ifs”, we can instead lose our insecurities by getting out there and flirting, having fun, meeting people, making eye contact and smiling and enjoying a conversation with some random guy and remembering (because of his reaction) that we STILL got it so whatever is going on in the husband’s mind right now, it’s his stuff and not something we need to worry about.  It helps us do what we KNOW we’re supposed to do…and that is give him time to go through his funk and not pressure him to talk about his feelings to us (even though, as women, we REALLY want to talk about his feelings).”
     
    I can honestly say that this has never, ever, ever happened to me.

    If a guy pulls back–be he date, boyfriend or husband–first response: “Huh. He must be distracted by something at work/school/with his family.” If he stays pulled back, I ask him what’s up. If he talks about it, cool. If he doesn’t and it perpetuates, then I start to wonder if we have a trust issue. Regardless, it has lots of time to work itself out, and if it doesn’t work itself out and the behaviour is something I can’t tolerate–not just distance or ‘space’ but meanness or callousness–the relationship is dying, and I end it.

    There’s nothing wrong with distance in a relationship, per se. Everyone needs their own hobbies, time, friends, including video games, so long as they’re doing their share around the house and with the bills, I really don’t care. I can’t imagine being in a relationship with someone and having them withdraw a bit and automatically assuming there’s something wrong with me.

    So from the first, I don’t need to get out there and rid myself of those insecurities. Because they’re not there.

    But more importantly, there must be at least 500 different ways of dealing with insecurities other than papering them over with attention from other men. Be a rock star at work. Write a novel. Run a marathon. Use that time and distance you’ve suddenly got in your relationship to actually accomplish something that doesn’t rest on the validation you receive from other men (I guarantee you, someday you’ll be old enough that it won’t matter, you’ll be invisible to most men).

    Also, this ‘women like to talk about feelings and men don’t’ thing–it’s so tiresome, and such bs. Can’t we just drop it already? In my experience men like to talk about their feelings just as much as women do, if they’re with a woman they can talk to–and I’ve even read studies that show that men in relationships who don’t talk about their feelings aren’t disinterested, they’ve just learned to shut up. I think it does a disservice to men to act as if all men will never have the fluency or facility with feeling that women do.

  3. 93
    Pokadots

    What I have a problem with in the Rori way of CDing…and I could be inaccurate but I don’t believe I am as I have come across this on her blog, is that CDing should be like a full time job. The process goes where if we decide to CD then that is first priority, we accept every date and even if we have a program to go out with a friend or girlfriend that should be cancelled in order to accept the date. Yet you hear many other coaches like Mirabelle Summers, Amy Waterman, Christian Carter and so and so forth telling you not to do that. That if you have previous engagements with friends you do not cancel them to go out on a date as that is actually acting out of integrity, and that dating should not be like a job but an opportunity to practice (Rori says this too) to connect with another person beyond a friend level. Yet at the same time Rori also says (and she’s not unique in this as many other coaches say similar things, so this is not a complaint) not to drop everything to pick up his call, don’t call him first and don’t change your plans…so I always got very confused in terms of her concept of CDing. In fact, many of RR’s concepts feel very confusing to me, to be quite frank.

  4. 94
    Karl R

    Mercedes said: (#93)
    “She most likely doesn’t date other men up until the marriage. She stays open, flirts and circular dates herself”

    Are you okay with your boyfriend flirting with other women?

    In previous threads, a significant portion of the women on this blog believe that it’s inappropriate for a boyfriend/husband to flirt with someone other than his girlfriend/wife. Other women expect their boyfriend/husband to flirt with other women, because they flirt with other men. My fiancée and I fit into the second category, and neither of us is bothered by it. Flirting with others isn’t a problem, as long as the woman is comfortable with her boyfriend doing the exact same thing.

    But I can’t see a relationship succeeding if it’s only acceptable for one partner to flirt with others (regardless of which partner is flirting).

    Mercedes said: (#83)
    “When I met a new guy, I told him how I felt about being exclusive. [...] I would say I’m not looking for an exclusive relationship right and that I’m dating lots of men and that someday I hoped to find The One”

    I realize that J gave you “total commitment,” but I’m not sure what you mean by that. Did he tell you that he wished to date exclusively? Or did you keep dating until he did something more than that?

    When I told a woman that I was interested in dating exclusively, and she declined (in order to continue dating others), then I had already gotten my answer to whether she was a potential long-term partner. I sometimes continued to date her non-exclusively, but I was looking elsewhere for an exclusive relationship.

    For most people, dating exclusively is one of the steps towards getting married. Personally, I wouldn’t consider a greater commitment until a woman was willing to date exclusively.

    Mercedes said: (#83)
    “he would fill up my evenings and weekends so that there wasn’t time to be with others.”

    Given my work schedule and other commitments, I can’t fill up someone’s time to that degree. I live with my fiancée, and she could find time for a few dates per week without me ever noticing.

    Mercedes said: (#93)
    “refusing to let a guy believe he’s got her for the rest of his life no matter what…until he actually asks for that…oh…and sets a date”

    Again, I’m a bit unclear as to what you mean by this.

    By the time my fiancée and I had dated six months, we felt it reasonbly likely that we’d end up getting married. At that point (and even now) it would be possible for me to lose her, but only if I acted in an unacceptable manner … and similarly, she could lose me if she acted in that manner.

    Both of us were upfront with where we stood, and I don’t see how either of us would have benefitted by trying to cultivate uncertainty within the other person.

    Mercedes said: (#93)
    “Want them to reach out to you? Don’t reach out to them. Want a person to lean toward you? Lean away from them. Happens probably 90% of the time.”

    Really? I must be in the other 10%. And I’m not sure how you connect with another person if you can’t move towards each other simultaneously.

    Why would a guy allow himself to become emotionally invested if the woman is giving signals that she’s keeping him away?

    Early in our relationship, my fiancée openly demonstrated that she was keeping some distance. There’s only one reason I didn’t move on during those months … the sex was good, and I was enjoying our fling.

    Because of that, she ended up falling in love before I did. Since she was outwardly maintaining some distance, I maintained some emotional separation. On the other hand, I wasn’t being outwardly distant, so it felt safe for her to emotionally connect.

    During the first couple months, I considered dating another woman (since my fiancée didn’t appear to be in it for the long haul). I primarily held back because I didn’t want to sabotage my chances with the other woman. I didn’t think the other woman would be too understanding if I started a romance with her while having regular sex with someone else.

    And if you avoid reaching out in order to get a man to reach out to you, how is he supposed to see a difference between you and the women who are truly disinterested in him?

  5. 95
    Mercedes

    I think I misspoke because I’m not sure how I managed to communicate “closed off” instead of “leaned back” with an open and accepting vibe.  Really sorry for the difficulty in finding the right words here.

    I’m very, very happy for those of you who have it all together.  Very, very VERY happy for the ones in love and secure (because I know how awesome it feels) and sending AWESOME vibes out to those of you who are waiting for love to come your way.

    Wishing you all the very BEST of everything…no matter how dating looks or feels for you.  We’ll all approach it differently and most likely, we’ll all have love in our arms.  That alone makes me smile.  :-)

    M

  6. 96
    Mercedes

    One last thing though…circular dating and leaning back yet staying open aren’t games and aren’t tricking or manipulating.  Honesty about where you stand and why are KEYS to making to work.  So is, not cheating, but instead, not being exclusive (except sexually) with men who aren’t ready to move forward.  Once they’re ready, if you’re in love, I say go for it!

    With passion!  :-)

  7. 97
    helene

    If a woman falls in love with a man, she completely loses interest in all other men at that point. That’s what happens to a woman when she falls in love.It is unimaginable to me to date more than one man beyond the extremely early stages of dating (ie. the first few weeks.) If I don’t fall for the guy, sure, I might be interested in dating others…. but that would be a sign to me to stop dating the first guy! If I am seriously interested in a guy, how can I possibly DATE other men? What do I have to offer them? What possible interest can I display in them or their plans for us? What genuine connection can I offer guys 2 and 3 when guy 1 has my heart??!

    The second point relates to sex – what is this weird american notion of “dating” without sex? That’s not dating, thats being friends. A date is a sexual encounter, at some level or another. In the early stages there may not be full sex but there will be glances, touches and flirting.. then kissing… All dating relationships are essentially sexual or they are not dating as such, they are “male friends I go to the movies with.”

  8. 98
    Karl R

    helene asked: (#100)
    “what is this weird american notion of ‘dating’ without sex?”

    I don’t consider glances, flirting, touching, kissing or even heavy petting to be sex. If none of those were present, I wouldn’t consider it to be a date either. I would say that I went to ____ with a friend.

    I think you’re using a much broader definition of “sex” than us.

  9. 99
    sassysophia

    Hi everyone –  I receive Rori’s newsletter but do not know much about Marc – sorry Marc.  The way I understood Rori’s circular dating made perfect sense to me.  This is how I took her to mean it though – .

    So say I decided to start dating again.  I would from the very beginning, date no less than three men at a time to: keep options open, to find out who is long haul material, and not place myself in a vulnerable position of getting attached to Mr. Emotionally Unvailable and his useless friends.  All fine with me so far.  

    Now if I end up really liking one man why should I stop dating the other two? Or not adding different two or three men.  Let’s say guy 1 says, “Will you be my girlfriend?”  I think Rori would advise that I say, “I’m not looking to be some one’s girlfriend.  I’m looking to get married.” And then I keep dating him and the others wth his knowledge of course. And he is free to do the same BUT NO SEX OR SLEEP OVERS OR SHACKING UP with any of them. It is really a smart strategy as you get to know each other and really see if you are compatible without the woman being placed in an insecure position of giving up her body, time, love, energy, to a man who is not offering her a REAL future or marriage.

    I understand in our modern era that seems wrong.  A woman is supposed to want to be a girlfriend as there is an assumption it leads to commitment and wife, HUGE ASSUMPTION that ends up putting the woman at risk.  

    Women have been lied to to give up sex, her time, her heart,  cause some guy says he loves her.  Women how many out there have believed a guy when he says he loves you, wants to get married, he thinks you”wonderful” with big cow eyes and puppy dog tail?  Any hands …thousands! Are you married? No to him? No.

    And they, including myself, are still single! I have also found a guy saying he loves means nothing anymore.  He has to say he’s “in love with you.”  Telling the woman I love you is to convince her give sex and there is a possibility of something more concrete, later, at some distant time, when he thinks he might be ready, even if it’s really ten years away, and looks nothing like the woman he’s with, and dogs can vote.

    In the old days a woman dated others right up until she was engaged. I watched a BBC movie last night where a woman was proposed to by three men she had been courting (no sex)
    I don’t believe in modern love: shacking up, playing house, sex before engagement with a ring, a date, and invites being written.  Most men, I feel take advantage of free sex.  Men don’t value women who will shack up with them…take a poll.  Scientific research says living together no more brings you to marriage than just dating. And MARC I understand is talking about “the good guy”  Well who is that good guy or good guys? He doesn’t come with a label.  How many times has a guy pretended to be a good guy to get his way, string some one along, etc etc. Most women don’t have broke hearts from bad guys but men who pretended to be good guys but were really bad. 

    The good guy doesn’t expect to shack up.  The good guy I think wants his woman to be his woman and marry her (if that is what you both have said you want)  A good guy doesn’t have children with you and NOT marry you (Matthew McConnehey you have a call at the front desk)  types. The only way a woman will truly know is if he gives her a ring and makes it legitimate!  And I think that is Rori’s point.  

    Say I was with a man who won’t commit, I haven’t been twiddling my thumb waiting for him. And why should I? He is also free to be dating.
    And if I made the mistake of living with him I would say: “Hey Bob, you’re a good guy, I’ve enjoyed our time together and I’m ready to get married.  I understand you may not be and it’s your choice which I will respect.  However I need to know (ea. woman will feel diff.) in one week, one month, where you stand on this.”  Don’t listen to his sorry exuses.  It is a yes or no answer.   Please marry me or I’m sorry you’re not the one.  And each person gets to go on and find who is better for them AND SHE’S NOT SITTING AROUND and WAITING. I think she should get back out dating. It gives the man too much power and it’s very hurtful to the woman’s esteem all the while he totally benefits from her sex, love, nuturing for FREE.

    That is what all this is about WOMEN CAN’T NOR SHOULD WAIT AROUND for men to decide if they feel like getting married when they’ve been getting, love, comfort, sex, laundry done (if she doesn’t know any better) the pretense of a  couple.  Ladies if we all agreed to this that a man can’t have sex, we aren’t exclusive, or we don’t stop dating others until there is a ring, wedding date, and invites sent out, you can BET MEN WOULD STEP IN LINE!
    And if he chooses some one else, you aren’t bonded sexually, you haven’t built your life around him, or as emotionally at risk, and still own yourself and self – respect and not waiting for this fantasy relationship to turn into something real. 

    Now that would be sexual/relationship revolution. 

    I think modern love is very destructive to the female psyche!

    1. 99.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      @SassySophia

      a) I won’t even bother to rebut anything you said. Your post speaks for itself.

      b) My name is Evan. Says it at the top of the page.

  10. 100
    EE

    There are two understandings of CD in this thread.  One is about “dating the world” which means having a full life whether you are in a relationship or not.  That could include dating more than one man but does not have to.   Different levels of intimacy with multiple dating partners might work for some, but depends on the people involved. For me more than casual dating maybe with some kissing, would not work.  Intense intimacy has a way of clouding other judgement and pre-occupying the mind.

    The challenge of moving from dating the world into an LTR between two emotionally healthy adults is recovering from the early headrush that causes you to neglect parts of your life for a while, while remaining close. This is about being a whole person with or without a partner and makes complete sense.  

    The other understanding of CD in this thread is whether to use jealousy and insecurity as tools to manipulate the responses of dating partners. This is about getting someone to make a commitment based on fear and dependency on  “needing” another person.  That is uncertain and shaky ground on which to build a strong LTR. 

    Keep clear which kind of CD each post is talking about and this thread is easier to understand.

  11. 102
    Jadafisk

    sassysophia – women are different, though. They want different things at different times from different people. An 18 year old pre-med student doesn’t want to get married and have a baby within the next 3 years. She may not even have enough time for a boyfriend. She probably wants to date and have sex, however. And if this type of Lysistrata scenario occurred, you best believe that men who DO NOT need to be married or in relationships would step in that line and destroy the lives of whoever was unfortunate enough to pull their card, like they used to. They’d shuck and jive long enough to acquire the commitment, then act out. A world where permanent bachelor types are allowed to get the amount of sex they want from the women who want to give it to them (they do exist, it isn’t just all male schemers and female dupes) without making false promises about commitment and/or wrecking any homes is best for everyone.

  12. 103
    Karl R

    sassysophia said: (#102)
    “all the while he totally benefits from her sex, love, nuturing for FREE.

    When my fiancée and I have sex, she feels that she has received the same benefit that I do. (And she felt the same way back when we started out just having a fling.) When we provide emotional support to each other, she feels that we receive equal benefit from the nurture. She feels that we benefit equally from our mutual love.

    Take a minute to consider the radical difference between her viewpoint and yours.

    To you, the man has received three benefits for free. To my fiancée, she has reciprocated the same benefits she has received. That difference has profound implications to the entire nature of the relationship.

    sassysophia said: (#102)
    Well who is that good guy or good guys? He doesn’t come with a label.”

    You’re having difficulty finding the good men, because they’re deliberately avoiding you. I mean that seriously.

    It seems very important to you that a man recognizes your value and the value of your contributions to a relationship. The good men (the ones who recognize your inherent value) will quickly realize that you have completely devalued their contributions to the physical and emotional intimacy of the relationship.

    Would you tolerate that attitude in a man?

    Do you expect that good men would be any more tolerant of that attitude?

  13. 104
    Pokadots

    I completely agree with Karl’s post to sassysophia. The whole post gave me the heebejeebies. The entire point of view about dating is all to “keep men in line” and giving her the ring in order to show legitimacy and getting the man to value you is so dinosaur and not workable. The whole point of being in a relationship is to grow and give and take your best. It can be the most wonderful thing if YOU have the right mindset. Marriage nor a ring is a garauntee that he “values” you or even loves you or is IN love with you. The whole point of coaches like Evan, Christian Carter, Mirabelle Summers and Marie Forleo is to gain an emotional strength, endurance, and fitness so that you bring that to the relationship table. What you bring is just as important as what you will get. Those who are flabby emotionally have no business being in a relationship period. It jars me that there are still so many women who date simply to get their exterior needs me rather than to find real true love. And true love is not about getting something from the other person regardless of what it is. I can’t help but feel like telling women to grow the H up and get over yourselves.

  14. 105
    AB

     
    When I first read about CDing just as your readers here , I felt shocked and thought it was weird . But that was before I really learned what Rori was saying.
    Circular Dating is not something a happy contented woman in a great relationship would want to do , nor would Rori advise it.Except to “date herself” perhaps …
    However a women , for example, in her late 30’s who wants marriage and kids and is being offered longstanding girlfriend status instead , even by a good man, needs to think about exercising her options. This has nothing to do with making the guy dance to her tune. This is about her going for what she wants and needs in her life. She has every right to seek happiness , and whatever her time line, she has a right to honour that , just as the man does.
    She can stay put , she can walk away (and he may be a really good man!) or she can take the third option of not chucking out the whole relationship , but to allow him extra time to decide about the next 35 years while being true to her own feelings of fear and frustration and taking action to feel better.
    CD’ing is not about multiple sex partners nor about recruiting “competition” to spur him on. CDing is an ATTITUDE of mind where she moves from frustration and fear and unmet needs, to opening up her options and taking responsibility for herself. This must be open , honest and NON manipulative. CDing GIVES him all the time he needs to decide .

    She has to be prepared to lose him.
    She has to be prepared to meet someone else who IS ready.
    This scenario is actually not the main use of circular dating, as I see it .It is mostly used as a way of meeting and getting to know men without pressuring them to create an “instant” relationship. When a girl is CDing this allows a man to know that she is NOT pinning her dreams on him, she does not have him in her sights , and she really and honestly is just looking for the best man for her .
    It totally stops all that pressure on early relationships to be Going Somewhere. It also allows a girl to wait for sex as the men understand she is not exclusive and therefore not ready to sleep with them .If the man decides to go further and step up his interest and she accepts him she can then decide with him when to become exclusive and sexual .
    I am currently CDing 3 great guys. They all know I see men friends. There is no sex as i am not exclusive with anyone. ALL of them expressed to me they did not want to rush into a relationship . ALL of them are really enjoying the dates and NON PRESSURE that I offer. Apparently its a very different feeling than being “hunted down like a deer in the headlights” according to tonights date.Another told me it was great not to have to worry about how fast to “move on me” as sex was not on the immediate menu. These guys LIKE CDing !!! My only problem is that I like them all and will miss the company of  the ones I dont settle with . This is NOT Avoidant attachment style as someone kindly offered above.
    This is plain good sense .I get to know the men without stepping into the age old womans trap of spinning a relationship in my head , then supergluing myself into it with sexual hormones.
    Whats not to like ?

  15. 106
    Twilight Princess

    SassySophia… phew! Rori suggests saying that one line? “I’m not looking to be someone’s girlfriend… I’m looking to be married?” Really? So on a normal dating time scale where this question happens of being exclusive, you expect them to ask you to marry them? I kind of wish I could be around someone that actually squeezes that winning line out. I just can’t fathom why anyone would think this is a good idea. It’s mind boggling. You’re being exclusive with a man, just not making it an issue with the law. Why is the boyfriend/girlfriend stage so hard? I’m also kind of curious where sex fits into this CDing theory. If you’re not being exclusive with these men until they ask you for marriage(which… obviously it hasn’t worked for the women above because they’re still dating) when do you have sex? Are you willing to have sex with someone you tell you don’t want to be exclusive with? Or if you do, that could potentially mean that you’re having sex with multiple people. I’m not going to judge you or anyone else for that, but that may have less than favorable consequences. Or do you wait until one of them agrees? Maybe I’m old fashioned(which is weird because I’m 90% sure I’m younger than most of the posters here, not to be rude.), but I prefer the boyfriend/girlfriend stage and then the guy asking for marriage if/when he wants(on a reasonable time scale… not 3 months). Wouldn’t you rather have the option of just breaking up instead of getting a divorce if things go wrong, and there is a good chance they will because you’re rushing getting to know someone. That means you probably don’t know them as well as you should before you make a lifelong commitment. Also, on an emotional level, don’t you feel somewhat detached from someone you refuse to be exclusive with? Obviously not entirely, but considering you’re investing yourself into a few other men that you probably developed interest in, wouldn’t that ruin the whole marriage proposal because you may be torn between which one you like? I don’t actually expect answers to all of these questions, these are all major problems I would have with CDing. I could probably find the answers on her web page that I visited for all of 5 minutes. It doesn’t interest me enough to go there though. Not trying to be rude, but it’s true.

    AB- if a guy states that he isn’t ready to rush into a relationship what makes you think he would want to skip the boyfriend/girlfriend stage before marriage? Key phrase- “I don’t want to rush”
    But please tell us how they respond.

    I would really like to know how the men respond to the “I’m not really looking to be someone’s girlfriend… I’m looking to be married.” In 3 months you should know what their intentions are as far as longevity is concerned. You, like everyone else, just need to learn to be patient! :-)

  16. 107
    AB

    re 110 ..with respect , who said I wanted marriage?
    This is not about marriage, its about having the form of relationship YOU WANT. As Roris web page is titled in fact , “Have the Relationship You Want”.
    I wish you had several hours to read the many excellent posts she has made on this subject, as 5 minutes cannot convey it clearly.
    Its about not having the connection you DONT want. Its about building self esteem , stopping obsessional thinking, over functioning and counteracting oxytocin bonding and  habituation (hormonal addiction) to Mr Wrong .Its about making sure you find a man who wants what you want . Its about choosing to have what you choose to have, not what is reluctantly given .
    Patience? Like I said I have all the time in the world , and my dates have as much time as they need.I dont feel frustrated and I am not waiting on someone else to “want ” me enough to be committed ..wow its so liberating (I am open to a committed forever relationship to see me into middle age and beyond- marriage is optional) I actually have a serious man courting me who I was once in relationship with many years ago. He knows what he wants with me. He loves that I am taking my time. I am still deciding as the other two also have a lot to offer .I reiterate that these men know and LIKE the fact there is NO PRESSURE on them to come up with a relationship of any type. As I am not sleeping with them I actually am getting to know them before supergluing my heart to anyone.
    I have been successfully married and my husband also knew what he wanted and acted fast to offer marriage. I agreed to a 12 month engagement to be sure of our feelings. At this time I was automatically CDing but didnt know what it was called back then. I just did what my mother and grandmother did , it worked .
    Rori teaches that I am a prize , and yep , she is right!! I am no longer someones default position.
    I respect Evans excellent discussion about how to understand how a man thinks , and his time line, and i agree this operates for a lot of guys exactly as he says. I agree that some men  wouldnt like it if their  girlfriend decides she is not getting what SHE wants  and wants to meet other people . But both parties have a right to have their needs met . And I dont want to think like a man .
    I dont want a man who doesnt know what he wants with me after a reasonable period .This is not 3 months . Please read Roris stuff before making it up. There is no time mentioned She states that it takes 3-6 months of regular dating to begin to know each other, to even know if you are suited. Why cut yourself off from other men during this time? You and your man are entitled to take ALL THE TIME YOU NEED to decide what you want with each other.
    I find older guys know exactly what they want and will have the life experience and courage to go for the woman that offers independence , intimacy and total openness about her feelings , just as Rori suggests. There is no need for excuses and delay tactics . To quote CD guy, ” I cant leave you on the market for too long you are sure to be snapped up !” Ok , I am 51, menopausal with health issues :):):)
    It sure works for me!
     
     
     

  17. 108
    Annie

    Oh Geez!! I just read Rori’s advice. It was painful, and didn’t even make much sense.

    How do men put up with this?  It’s babble…plain and simple. I’ve spent way to much time around men perhaps, I don’t get this at all.

    The big blind spot for women, is sex. They keep having it, keep getting hurt and keep “giving it” as though it’s something they give to a man to get his affection.

    And men keep saying, until we get sex, we don’t even feel like we are dating, so women have sex, get hurt…get used and then blame themselves and get themselves into this ridiculous overly emotional state, where they are completely irrational.

    Ladies. Stop having sex and date. Then you can keep a clear head. Best dating advice ever. :)

  18. 109
    Laine

    Sassysophia at 102.You have a hidden agenda. I met a guy a long time ago, we just dated each other and were honest about that. We fell in love, married 9 months later, married 18 years, 3 beautiful children. So it does happen. But not when you have a hidden agenda!

  19. 110
    southrnphoenix

    First, I will admit I have not yet read the comments, but I just had to say one thing:  after a man agreed to be exclusive with me, even though there has been no proposal, if I found out he was seeing other women, I would drop him like a hot rock.  Really, how could I ever expect my boyfriend to be cool with me dating other men if I wouldn’t be cool with him doing the same?  That has to be the biggest double standard I have ever heard of.

  20. 111
    kenley

    I understand early on that  a woman may want to  date multiple guys to help her avoid obsessing with one.  My issue is a practical one.  Currently, I am dating two guys and between work and other parts of my social life, I am having a hard time juggling two men.  I can’t imagine dating three or four.    As much as Rori says it’s important to have a full rich life that involving friends, family, and other passions, if you are dating three to four men, I’m just certain how one fits ALL that in.  

    I guess at the end of the day, people ultimately have to do what feels right to them.

  21. 112
    Lydia

    GREAT article!  I found you through Rori’s blog. CD does have it’s place, I guess, but my guy demanded exclusivity after just a few weeks, even though he wasn’t commiting to a long term relationship. EVERYTHING you said makes sense to me.

  22. 113
    SMC

    I discovered Rori’s website after becoming single when I ended my 23 yr long marriage and entered the dating pool for the first time since high school. That was 3 years ago. Her blog was boggling to me but I tried to adapt to some of the concepts. I knew I needed to be single for a while and not jump into another relationship right away. I wasn’t even looking for a relationship but the VERY FIRST guy that I said yes to go to dinner, ended up becoming boyfriend many months later. However, he didn’t want to be rebound guy so he encouraged me to go out with other people (circular dating) but this was in the very beginning of our relationship, both of us not knowing where it was going to lead us. So, as I spend the next year just exploring the world around me, meeting people, going out with people, more importantly, making friends, he and I keep growing closer and closer while we’re just dating. But then a time comes where you draw the line and cross over from dating to being boyfriend/girlfriend and that circular dating isn’t appropriate anymore.
    During that time, I was disturbed that Rori’s blog said that it was okay for me to CD but that he couldn’t. Such a double standard!!
    In my personal experience, the CD thing is great when you are truly single. Yes, you need to try different people out and see what suits you best. But once you start going forward with one of them, you can’t keep on CD’ing while giving him a threat that until there’s a ring on the finger, I can do what I want! I tried that for a while and all that did was drive a perfectly good match farther away. I honestly believe that if I hadn’t tried the CD concept, we would have accelerated our relationship instead of creating set-backs. Now, 3 yrs later, I have some experiences and baggage that would have been better off left alone. I now have to deal with the emotional connection to my CD actions as well as deal with the fall out of those who I CD’d with, some of home hoped to win me over and created problems for me as I tried to let go of those people. We are dealing with real people with feelings and emotions and we can’t just run around and treat people like they are a objects that we can use. It is just very selfish.
    And I’m happy to say that almost everything that Evan wrote in this article is unfolding in my life with my boyfriend. He’s telling me that he wants to be married but that he needs TIME to be sure and that he doesn’t want to make a mistake. And that if I had kept CD’ing, for sure that would have ended our relationship since I wasn’t alloting him the time he needs. I am NOT in a hurry to be married anyway!
    I think its sad that Rori would take a concept and try to adapt it to all situations. It might work for one but it won’t work for ALL situations.

  23. 114
    Joe

    Sounds to me like the whole hullabaloo is a misunderstanding over the name “Circular Dating.”  Rori has co-opted the word “dating” for parts of her system that are not actually dating.  Non-readers of her blog call it “having a life” and don’t even remotely relate it to dating.

  24. 115
    LC

    The problem with “committing” to a man that you’re dating is that he’s now in control of when or if you get married, and many men will string a woman along for as long as possible before marrying her.  So it’s important for a woman NOT to get serious or commit to someone who’s not committed to her.  People sleep around so much these days, and dating should be getting to know the man so that you know that you’re compatible.  Most women lock down immediately with a guy, and that’s when she gets trapped and taken for granted.  A good man with good intentions would never treat a woman like that and take her for granted, but there aren’t that many good men or women around these days or Rori wouldn’t have a job.  Plus, our grandmothers/mothers NEVER went steady with any guy.  I was warned many times to never cut off all of my options, never to be a guy’s girlfriend for more than a year, or to put all of my eggs in one basket.  My grandmother went out with every man who asked her until my grandad came up with a ring and married her.  They were married for 50 years and had 5 kids.  I even had a guy I was dating tell me about a model he used to date in China, and that she’d have another guy pick her up to take her out right after he’d dropped her off for a date.  He said he was intrigued b/c she was such a challenge.  So I think men deserve your fidelity when they marry you, and other than that, I’ll do what I want.

  25. 116
    Karl R

    LC said: (#119)
    “My grandmother went out with every man who asked her until my grandad came up with a ring and married her.”
    “So I think men deserve your fidelity when they marry you, and other than that, I’ll do what I want.”

    Are you saying that you’d find it acceptable for your fiancée to have sex with another woman the day before he married you? Are you saying that you’d find it acceptable if your boyfriend had sex with another woman the day before he proposed?

    If any person (man or woman) can’t manage an exclusive, monogamous relationship for a few months of dating, then it’s a strong indicator that person won’t be able to manage fidelity through decades of marriage. I wouldn’t waste my time with that person.

    LC said: (#119)
    “Most women lock down immediately with a guy, and that’s when she gets trapped and taken for granted.”

    How does that make her “trapped”? She can choose to leave any time she chooses. The only thing holding a woman in the relationship is her decision to not leave. If he strings her along or takes her for granted, she can decide to leave. Where’s the trap?

    LC said: (#119)
    “The problem with ‘committing’ to a man that you’re dating is that he’s now in control of when or if you get married,”

    The woman can decide to not get married. She can decide that she doesn’t want to get married right now. Those are the same two decisions that the man is able to make.

    Both people have the ability to say “No,” or “Not now.” I fail to see how you can rationally claim that gives the man more control than the woman. (Though in all fairness, I’ve heard men make the same claims about women being in control when both sides have equal power.)

    If you look at a situation like where you and a man have equal control, but you see it as a situation where the man has all the control, then it becomes a situation where he has the control … because you can’t use power that you’re unaware that you have.

    If you want to come across as a strong and independent woman, then you’re going to have to recognize when you have equal control of a situation.

  26. 117
    SS

    Unfortunately I side with Evan’s, all the points, way to go man!!

    I just can’t imagine how xxcked up men who are dating women under Rori’s principles. We are all pretty confused already and it got more confusing with CDing. In general women put too much hope whenever they have great connection with men. A great conversation is just a great convesation, doesn’t mean the guy has to be the BF, let alone the hubby. Just keep enjoying the conversation/the flirts, go back to your (already happy) life, and one day the guy who has THE gut will truly tell what he feels and hopefully his goals without all the pressure. I totally agree, not all women is needy about getting married. Rori is exploiting the opposite to the point where CDing would just “xxck up people mind” (quote from “General Daughter” movie).

  27. 118
    Laura

    I think a lot of folks are automatically assuming dating means having sex.   It may be true for some, but not all of us.   CDing has its place and I did CD through spring and summer after my man took my hand and told me he and his xgf were going to get back together. 

    Our good-bye kiss lasted 3 hours through a wild thunderstorm, all the way to sunshine and rainbows and eagles soaring on the updrafts and finished with, “See ya Monday.”   I assured him I wasn’t making out with anyone else and I would continue to do without sex until he made up his mind between xgf and me.   I never brought her up again.  She’s totally yesterday’s mashed potatoes!

    It was fun, but I didn’t lead any men on.  I was upfront that I don’t put out.  I got lots of good hugs!  Only 1 kissed me, then immediately tried to bed me.  Ick.   One of them I was seeing is a lifelong friend of my man’s and a good friend of mine.  I’m sure he was keeping tabs on me, asking questions my man would never ask himself!   He has faded back into the woods now my man has put the xgf behind him and stepped up as my man. 

    CDing was a great way to not be stuck on a man who possibly wasn’t mine to have.

    But to do CDing to the level RR suggests?  No freakin’ way!  Invite them to my home?  I don’t have casual men in my home or go to their homes.  I don’t do casual sex or put myself in unsafe situations.  Keep CDing until I have a ring or license?  Evan is right, where’s the trust and how do you build it while dating around?   My man trusted me not to go screwing around while he made up his mind, Kinda sorta.  That’s why one of my dates was a mutual friend?  lol 

    CDing became ICK!   My man and I love each other, we trust each other.   There is no value in rattling his cage with CDing!   

    Shoving these other men off my platter is not enjoyable.  Continuing to date them is not enjoyable.   Yes, some of us women did find time to date 4-6 men, but there was no emotional investment beyond having fun and exploring friendship.  Some were already friends and will continue to be friends.  But some had hope for a real relationship and no man like to be shoved into Oprah Guy Friend status. 

    I have 1 last guy to dump, my DD’s bf’s dad.  We’ve been doing “Family Dates.”  I love his kids.  My man knows about this and is glad DD has a nice boyfriend, but it’s time to take her training wheels off.

  28. 119
    LF

    Wow!!! THANK YOU!!! I completely agree with you on this one!! I really needed to hear this because I have Rori’ Rayes programs on CD and I’m really trying to abide by them but all the way up to the ring seemed, instinctively wrong to me, lack of trust (in my opinion), so I am happy to see a guy’s perspective because now I don’t have to feel bad if I don’t want to apply her principles exactly..which I actually knew was okay but it is nice reassurance I suppose!

    I am not sure I agree with the no boyfriend thing either..I agree you need to be careful but if the guy asks you for this.. and he is sincere..why not? like you said, it doesnt mean you have to stop “looking” and you can always dump him later if it doesnt work out.

  29. 120
    GingerSky

    As a follower of Rori’s work and one who’s greatly enjoying the honest communication with Evan’s post, comments on Rori’s page, and all this discussion, I have to say I see some pertinent points to be brought out. Evan, your sharings are greatly valued by me. And Rori is just doing something different.

    CDing is not to be suddenly invoked “in a moment of insecurity” with an established boyfriend in a thriving and relatively healthy secure and complete relationship, as I understand it. I agree, that is very hurtful! Rori just sees “girfriending” and “marrying” as two different, usually mutually exclusive tracks (which I agree with in most every case)… and she is trying to reestablish the old fashioned kind of courtship in which no man was *ever* able to consider a woman his own until they were seriously engaged.

    Given this difference in approach and outlook, I have often wondered why Rori brings in thoughts from other coaches who hold to the girlfriend track as being valid (who all seem to be men?), since these are in such conflict really. But I guess she just wants to include any and every good viewpoint and input, and rightly so.

    So… if you are already a girlfriend of a devoted, wonderful, honest and human man, then I agree that suddenly CDing is *not* a cool thing to engage.  Speaking to your insecurity about whether you will marry is fair though. but it seems that almost all the time, if a girlfriend does this she is guilty of scaring the poor man. It is a one-sided proposition (which is how some women saw your description of your relationship with your wife, Evan, no blame, it just wouldn’t be everyone’s bag to have this kind of arrangement or dynamic… although your points are well-taken and very caring, helpful and honest imo).  I have been counseling with a couple here in which the man has the same dynamic you do, but his present wife cannot handle it, whereas his former wife (now deceased) was fine with it. Because of this difference, they are both now having to work through old childhood issues of insecurity and maturity that they never would have otherwise worked through. And he is seriously changing his ways as far as how he talks with other women at parties, and how he interacts with them in his body- and energy-work and teaching/counseling practices.  She is learning to trust that he really does love her, even though he has been serioulsy distracted by other women a lot.

    The present way of society has never been known in any familiar time of history as far as we know, how men can now claim a woman as their own with *no commitment*, no husband-ness, no responsibility, and no chance for the woman to honestly express her desire or need or fear about that — without labelling her openly as a mistress, friend with benefits, prostitute, work-help, patron, moral-support, concubine or other defined role, so she can choose or dis-choose consciously!  In my opinion Rori is right (and I have dated a TON in my life and had several serious relationships and been married once now at age 49).  The girlfriend track amounts to an ongoing state of the man saying “we’re single & I’m pretty much free, but you’re basically my mistress” relationship.  I know marriage is scary, esp for men, and dating is how to find out if you want to marry… but it seems women are always having to cater to a man’s childlike insecurities as his mother would without ever being able to speak to our own without being seen as undesireable and threatening, tedious, troublesome.  So who gets to have space for their humanity in the relationship… ? Seems it’s either the man wanting to be free, or the woman wanting commitment, but seldom both. 

    I think it’s best to always CD, so that any relationship you enter has already been based on that fact (if you are interested in one take from the Christian faith, albeit a youth-targeted one, see Joshua Harris’s books… he also says a man has no right to consider a woman his own until he’s prepared to place a ring on her finger). But if you’re in a relationship with a man who is wonderful, fine. Be faithful to and focused on it! If he is, however, taking you for granted, acting kind of half interested, seeming to use you no matter how you’ve tried to solve it, engagin other women (which does not work, as men CDing is just a sign he’s not husband material or doesn’t want you… old fashioned as that is it’s totally true imo)… if he’s not really there emotionally, etc, then CDing is the answer — or atleast talking aobut the things that will come up if you tell him you intend to CD might bring an answer. It’s not about pushing, controlling or hurting a man — as Rori repeats with *great* frequency. It’s about clearing the decks in your life to see which man is serious & compatible rather than wasting your time if one is keeping you in the fridge as his “girl on tap.” 

    And it’s about ridding ourselves of that “girl on tap” vibe and energy, so we can becom the best we can be, and be good wife material… and be secure, giving, dependable and enjoyable wives and women for ourselves and all those we ove.

    So if you’re the girlfriend of a great guy who is attentive, honest, monogamous, present and connected, and he is getting all those same things from you, then what’s the propblem? Don’t CD.  But if you feel used, wasted, in pain and insecure, then talk about it with him and see what somes up from under the surface… and maybe seriously CD. 

    And remember, if you really read deeply/thoroughly in Rori’s materials and thoughts, CD-ing doesn’t ever have to mean dating other men… it also simply means focusing on the beauty and enjoyable delicious experiences around and in you (as I’m sure your wife does, Evan)  so that you build yourself up and are not leaning all your energy, longing, need, self-esteem lack, emptiness and desire on one man so that he is stifled and crowded, and you’re left neurotic, scattered and holding the bag.  It’s just a healthy way to relate to the world and deal with things as they are, not as you wish them to be.

    1. 120.1
      Emily

      Amen! Wow, you hit the nail on the head and made some outstanding points! With all due respect to Evan as I 99 % of the time agree with his posts, I find that Evan is not understanding what CD is about, and how it works. I found your explanation of Rori’s principles spot on . I think that just because men are saying, ‘We want the benefits of an exclusive relationship ie boyfriend/girlfriend without true commitment  because this is what WE want,’ does not mean that women have to agree to these terms. In my grandparent’s day, men courted women to marry not just to be boyfriend/girlfriend.. WHY?? because women set STANDARDS for men that they in turn had to follow in order to be in a loving relationship– and marriages by and large lasted a long time and were happier and healthier than in this ‘me centered’ generation.. Rori is trying to bring back these ‘old fashioned’ courtship principles to women, so that men realize that NO woman is theirs until they are ready to provide a true and lasting commitment. And until a woman gets this comittment , then she should date until she finds a man that is willing to give this to her, however long it takes for her to feel comfortable, even if it means dating multiple men until one proves himself to her. I think within the context of dating, if you are falling for someone and realize you are compatible with someone, you naturally become exclusive without having to verbalize that this is happening.. if a man is falling for a woman, he should realize though that she is not truly his unless he pops the question.. until then, he needs to prove himself to her and until he proves himself, then she should not close herself to the possibility of meeting other men.. if a man is truly falling in love with a woman, the thought of losing her would be unbearable I would think.. if he is ‘turned off’ by her dating other men UNTIL he makes up his mind on wanting to marry her, then I don’t think he truly wants to be with her, because he wouldn’t give up the fight to win over the woman so easily

      1. 120.1.1
        Evan Marc Katz

        “And until a woman gets this comittment, then she should date until she finds a man that is willing to give this to her, however long it takes for her to feel comfortable, even if it means dating multiple men until one proves himself to her.”

        Yeah, good luck with that.

        1. Emily

          Why, Evan? Don’t you think if a woman said to a guy,  I really care about you and enjoy spending time with you and want to see where this goes, but I can’t be exclusive unless I’m sure it’s truly going in the right direction, and until then, let’s get to know each other without pressure.. that would be a turn off? If you truly were compatible and meant for each other, why is the ‘boyfriend-girlfriend’ stage even necessary? Maybe I’m being totally naieve and idealistic here, but having been in unsatisfying boyfriend-girlfriend relationships I’m starting to wonder if committing to a man and giving him the benefits of marriage without true commitment is a stage that men say is necessary to ‘figure things out’.. well why can’t men figure it out while you are dating others  (without sex being involved.. I know I opened up another can of worms with that)!

        2. Evan Marc Katz

          I wrote a 7 page response as to how I feel. If you’re my girlfriend (not wife) and you’re seeing other people…you’re not my girlfriend. You’re cheating on me. All you have to do is flip the genders over to see what an untenable position you’re staking. If your boyfriend wanted to see other people, you’d think it was a dagger in the heart of your relationship. Yet if my girlfriend says that she should be allowed to see others until I put a ring on it, I’m supposed to FIGHT for her? Sorry, Emily. I know you want to believe in this. I know you care for Rori Raye. I think she’s a delightful, special, insightful human being. I just think she REALLY missed it on this one, and that if you pull this act on a devoted boyfriend of a year or two, you’re going to lose him really quickly.

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