(Video) When Should a Woman Ask Out a Man?

Here’s the latest video from the series I created with Three Day Rule. It’s called “When Should a Woman Ask Out a Man?”

While gender roles have changed, is it still the man’s job to ask you out, or is it okay for you to take the lead? In this video I’ll reveal what I think is the optimal solution: getting a guy to ask YOU out so you don’t have to do the asking.

Watch the video above and be sure to share your thoughts below.

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Comments:

  1. 1
    Stacy

    If you flirt, have a pleasant facial expression, and better yet, if you are able to make eye contact and he STILL doesn’t ask you out, then he is either not interested enough or not available so that he can ask you out. A woman can make it fairly obvious if she wants to.  I will not ask a guy out. I don’t care what century we live in. It does not make me feel feminine. However, I think some women can pull it off.

    Strangely enough, I have no issues approaching a man online first. However, it is subtle and I don’t come on strong and I see how he follows up afterward.

    1. 1.1
      Adrian

      Stacy,

      I have read many books on body language and to be honest, most are not good. But finally, I actually found one that was very good (the authors included pictures for every movement), but it was also written by a couple that helped pioneer the field of body language (according to them), Barbra and Allen Pease.

       

      Anyway, in the book they speak about how women are 10 times better at reading body language than men. Unfortunately, because of this, women are often really subtle when they give guys the okay signal or even when they flirt. According to the book, evolutionary scientist theorize that because women had to communicate, understand, protect, and guide babies who can not communicate with words for sometimes as long as up to 24 months . In order to accomplish this, women developed very shape senses, enabling them to read and interpret the subtlest of body movements and facial expressions.

       

      What all this means is: Basically we guys aren’t sharp enough 99% of the time to notice if a woman is flirting with us or giving us the okay to approach her; and women are most times too subtle with their “it is okay to approach me” signals.

       

      But Stacy, I believe you once mentioned you were in NYC, so shouldn’t the sheer quantity of singles make up for the lack of quality? I don’t know, I remember Patti Singer making a statement about all the single women in NYC, but I also remember Evan writing a post refuting that statement with a statistic showing the number of single men and women in NYC are about even. I would guess there are still more singles in  NYC than most states, so the chances of finding someone should also be greater.

       

       

      1. 1.1.1
        Stacy

        Adrian,

        I am in Philly so not NYC although I frequent there.:) There are a few Stacys that come on this site so that may be it as well.:)

        Okay, I can agree with you that women aren’t always overtly obvious.However, I also think that men in general seem to have become more fearful (I have heard many complain about unexplained rudeness and some may be a bit gunshy so they have valid reasons). Usually, if a man approaches me, he stares and stares. I either smile back and make eye contact if I am interested or I attempt to avoid eye contact at all costs if I am not.I get approached fairly often and it is extremely uncomfortable to turn down a man who had the balls to approach in the first place so I at least try to be really nice about it.

        Regardless, I think that men will always have this ‘burden’ of.the approach just as women will have other burdens they have to bare.Unfortunately, men will just have to suck this one up and take a risk because sometimes there is very limited opportunity when you see a woman.For.instance, I was rushing to the gym the other day and this guy ran up to me and started to walk beside me and carried on a conversation for a few mins.Trust me, I was not in flirt mood at all. We ended up exchanging numbers.So always looking for obvious signs of interest can probably make men lose out big time. But there is no reward without risk.

         

  2. 2
    AAORK

    This is one area that will never change (no matter how gender roles continue to change) because it violates the prime objective of all women: The Desire to be Desired. And that’s perfectly natural. The problem is that far too many single women don’t know how to project availability and approachability. Good men naturally pick up on these social cues when women exhibit them (and when they don’t). Ladies, fix that and you’ll be well on your way to success!

    1. 2.1
      Stacy

      Good advice.

    2. 2.2
      Christine

      Well put–the “desire to be desired”.  Back when I was single, I never wanted to have to “chase” a guy to get his attention. I really am happy with following my boyfriend’s lead.  If a man doesn’t desire a woman enough to ask her out, then I think her time is best spent moving on to find the man who does desire her.

       

      1. 2.2.1
        AAORK

        Well, a follow-up on this .. it’s also important that women know the prime objective of all good men: The Need to be Needed. I can’t speak for all men but every Good Man I have ever known (ya know, the ones Good Women want and deserve) are looking for a woman who is loving, supporting and encouraging but most of all one who is pleasant to be around (stable temperament, minimal drama, etc) and appreciative of him and men in general. The rest is negotiable. Really, that’s it. I assure you, these are the women that men commit to.

         

        1. Adrian

          AAORK,

          I think the lack of feeling desired is what causes so many men to have a strong distaste for traditional courting (though I agree with Evan, we have to just suck it up and do it or not get any quality dates).

           

          I personally believe most men ( Alpha and Beta),  have no problem with approaching a woman, asking a woman out, doing all the calling, planning the dates, etc (though getting rejected isn’t fun).

           

          The problem only arises when the man feels that he is doing all the giving/work to make the woman feel desired, while getting nothing in return except to feel like he is being interviewed or judged (I think most people  would agree this does not apply to a man whom a woman feels strong attraction for, but only toward guys who she is only slightly attracted to or not sure about <which is 80% of the male population according to the Okcupid study>).

           

          So he approaches first, calls first, plans, pays, etc, then she decides that she does not want to date this guy, so afterwards he wonders, “what did I gain from all that”? While she gains the acknowledgement that she is still attractive, even if she does not reciprocate those feelings.

           

          Even worse is the experience of the average guy who maybe asks out 10 or more women a month and is rejected by all ten. He thinks, “What am I gaining from this except for feeling unattractive”? Again she gains the acknowledgement that men still find her attractive as long as men continue to ask her out. So when he does finally find a girl that says yes, he is hoping for some reciprocation of his effort to make her feel desired on the dates.

           

          I will note here that many woman say they smile on dates, but I believe all men know the difference between a smile out of courtesy and a smile generated from someone actually enjoying his company.

           

          I believe most women are more focused on having the man make them feel desired; so the thought of making him feel equally desired on the first few dates never crosses their minds (again women who are really attracted to a guy will show genuine interest).

           

          I would guess that their reasoning for this is: “He asked me out, why should I have to worry about making him feel special when I do not know him or know how I feel about him. He is a stranger”. Though she is a stranger to him also, women still expect for him to make her feel desired, and special (though from what I have gathered from the comments on here, a woman can go on 100 dates and not feel desired or special if the guys asking her out are not at all attractive or appealing to her, so just because she said yes to a date, does not mean she is attracted to the guy).

           

          Anyway that is the disconnect in my opinion. But if Karmic Equation’s belief that it all evens out in the long run is correct (she states that after the courting stage women actively try to make the man feel desired and even most times give more than they receive in the relationship). Then it is actually balanced, we men just do not pay attention to (or take for granted) that part of the relationship.

           

          So I guess the trick for us men is, to just choose wisely, and know that even if we don’t feel desired in the beginning, this woman will make us feel that it was worth it in the end if she accepts us as her boyfriend.

           

          I want to believe this is true anyway.:-)

        2. Evan Marc Katz

          100% correct. The answer for average guys isn’t to become a selfish asshole, but rather to carry yourself with confidence in spite of rejection and learn what it takes to succeed with women. Yelling at women and giving up on love are the least effective ways to get what you want. I give plenty of advice to women encouraging them to be better on dates (see Why He Disappeared).

        3. AAORK

          Partially correct, Evan. The answer for average guys is: don’t be ‘average’. The solution? Eat well, sleep well, make good money, and bulk up (but don’t go overboard). Overall, I’ve seen that having a masculine physique (along with good posture/frame) is the most significant influencer in gaining the attention of women, hands down. It’s right up there with “social validation” (e.g. – the idea that a man is never as attractive to women as when he already has another woman on his arm).

          Having been on a regular trainer-led routine for over 3 years now, I (and every other man who has done the same) would personally attest to the striking difference in the amount of attention from women of all ages (and a good amount of respect and deference from other men) than ever occurred before doing this.

          Being a selfish asshole appeals only to the weak-minded and those with low self-esteem. Being a generous, “part-time asshole” (and no, it’s not what everyone thinks) works much better overall. Like everything in life, moderation and balance is important. Confidence is a key element but is only one part of the well-rounded package. Physique and “frame” is paramount.

        4. Nissa

           
           
           
          Aaork, can you explain why men need to be needed? I’ve heard this before but never understood it. This is not a feeling I have experienced. The other things you mentioned make sense to me, that any person would like. But couldn’t a woman love, support and encourage a man without needing him? I genuinely don’t understand the thinking there.
           

        5. gl

          AAORK – After all my misandrist ranting lately it’s so refreshing to hear from men like you! I just wanted to disagree that women go for men with a great body. I don’t go for guys who are obese or very short, but a paunch or being really skinny doesn’t bother me. I’m trying to think of women I know in relationships with men who have a perfect physique, and only a couple come to mind.

    3. 2.3
      naomi

      So how does one project availability and approachability? I know I don’t, but I’m not sure how to change it.

      1. 2.3.1
        Adrian

        Naomi,

        Stacy’s comment #1 gave some good examples.

         

        I would only add, just make sure you understand that many of us guys are not good at reading subtle gestures, so if a guy does not approach, it may not be you, he just may be too denses to pick up on it.:-)

         

        I have read a few books on flirting (most were not good), but I did find a excellent one (unfortunately I can not remember the name of the author).

         

        In the book, she had a section on catching the eye of the guy unskilled at reading a woman’s signals. Unfortunately, I glossed over most of the advice strictly for women and focused on the flirting advice that was unisex. I remember she gave some great advice on approaching, but doing it in a way where the man takes the lead and thinks he initiated contact first, though I don’t remember.

         

        But if I remember one thing she said, it was to dress in bright alluring colors and to wear feminine clothing. Her reasoning was that since most women today wear dull colors and dress in a t-shirt and jeans, baggy sweat outfits or pantsuits; they do really stand out in a crowd. Bright colors will catch anyone’s eye, and a woman looking feminine and not like one of guys is attractive to men. A woman wearing heels and a red dress would catch a man’s eye faster than a woman wearing black jeans and a dark blue shirt.

         

        Sorry, that is all I can remember, I know she probably gave better advice to signal men, but that is all I can remember.

        1. Caroline

          @Adrian-your answer to Aaork2.21.

          i agree partially with your analysis. And yes-it is of great importance for women to realize their part in dating. I’m just a little befuddled by your remark that women just deem the need to be desired by dates with no regard for reciprocation. At least for me, I go into dating to make a some kind of connection with a man. I don’t disregard his feelings. There is much anxiety upon the first date for most women. We build it up in our own minds just as men do. And we are just as disappointed when you obviously don’t return our feelings/call us for a return date. 

          But yes, it’s of great importance to be open and kind to each other during the dating process 🙂

        2. Adrian

          Caroline,

          Fair enough, but did you notice the part where I noted that my observations only apply to dates where the woman is not sure of her attraction or only slightly attracted to a guy.

    4. 2.4
      Emily

      Adrian,

      I think if you want to know if a woman likes you, watch her behavior. A woman who really likes you will offer to help you pay for the date (maybe pay for the entire 2nd or 3rd date), offer to plan one of the dates, return your calls and texts in a timely manner. She acts interested and engaged. All of this can take place early in the courting phase, so you won’t feel like you are wasting your efforts on someone who seems ambivalent about you.

      1. 2.4.1
        Adrian

        Emily,

        Most women will tell you (at least from the comments I have read on here from the thousands of women who comment) that when a woman offers to pay on the first few dates, it means that she is NOT interested in a guy.

         

        Most women do not like the thought of a complete stranger buying them something or paying for their meal. This is important, though hard for many guys to understand. It makes women feel like they owe a man something. So if the date is not good, she is more than glad to pay, that way she can cut ties with the guy cleanly, guilt free.

         

        It is hard for many women to allow a guy they like to always pay for everything, but I believe most women endure this because they tell themselves that once he becomes her boyfriend, she will do many wonderful things for him; some of those things being free, some of those things costing money, but all of them will show how much she cares for him (this is why I now look at courting as an investment. An investment for future happiness).

         

        Many women have also stated that they do a fake offer (maybe to look chivalrous or to test the man?), BUT! If the man takes her up on her offer to split the bill, she usually doesn’t give him another date.

         

        Of course this is not all women, but from what I have seen and read, it is the majority.

         

        Though to be fair, it has nothing to do with being a gold digger, user, or money at all, it is just the way women feel men should court them.

         

        Though to be even more fair and honest, I believe much of what modern women do as far as courtship, has little to do with wanting to feel feminine and more to do with using a scapegoat to get out of having to go through possibly being rejected by someone they are attracted to, like men do.

         

        Plus society tells us that desired (attractive, sexy, hot) women are chased/pursued/courted, by men. So it also could be possible that women wait for the man to make the first move because it is embarrassing to approach a guy when most women do not. It is like admitting her sexual market value/rating is low. If no guy or only guys who she deems unattractive are the only men asking her out, what does that say about her beauty? That’s what society projects to women.

         

        Fear and/or society pressure are just my theories, but as I stated to AAORK, a lot of women will approach or at the very least put themselves in the path to be noticed by a guy whom they do find really attractive.

         

        (And yes, I know there are expectations. There are women who will happily let men pay without feeling they owe him anything; they feel chance for him to take her 0ut should be enough. And yes, there are women who do ask men out all the time and may even be married to the guy she approached first. I am just talking about the majority).

         

        Everything else you listed, I completely agree with, because returning a call is different from calling a guy first, returning a text is different from texting a guy first. Acting interested and engaged are good enough for most men anyway.

        1. Stacy

          Adrian,

          I have to.trust your experience because you are a.man dating women. However, for the.life of me, I don’t understand when I hear men say that they don’t know.if their date is interested.

          MOST women that I personally know will not keep saying ‘yes’ to you for a 2nd or 3rd date if she is not interested. Also, when I go on a date, I lean in, I smile, I thank him after the date, I may touch his arm, I flirt and I enthusiastically say ‘yes’ if he asks.me out again. And yes, I do offer to pay from the 2nd or 3rd date.But it’s all.done enthusiastically.When a woman really likes you, she answers when you calls or doesn’t take days to get back to you, etc.

          So, how is it not obvious?

          Lastly, if I were a man, I would keep the first couple of dates reasonably cheap.Trust me, I get that the cost can add up.But, you don’t need to take her out on a 4 course meal until you are a but more sure.If the first date is a coffee date, the 2nd could be a picnic or a romantic walk and there are free things to do around my city all the time.That way, you feel her out for interest.If she is into you, she won’t care about the cost. So, no matter the turn out, nothing lost and nothing gained.

        2. Adrian

          Stacy,

          Besides being able to read body language, two other important factors to consider are confidence, and how attractive you are to him.

          1. Men who are not confident in their own worth (looks, body, success), will project this onto women. She could give blatant signs that she is attracted to him, but subconsciously since he does not think he is a good catch, he will doubt that another could find him so.

          2. I have seen many “seemingly” confident men, lose their cool around beautiful women. I believe the fear is, “why would a women as beautiful as her, want a guy like me when she could have any man.

           

        3. Emily

          Adrian and Stacy,

          I completely agree with Stacy. I probably wouldn’t offer to pay for the first date, though I will make it a point to be gracious and say thank you. On the 2nd date, I will offer to pay for at least part of it. (If we do dinner and drinks, I’ll get the drinks.) By the third date, I pick up the tab. I do not expect a man to pay for everything, and I will not continue to accept dates from a man I am not interested in.

          In the beginning, if I want him to ask me out, I will give him an opening or throw back his conversational ques. If I am not interested, I do the opposite. For example, I had to work on Christmas. One of my male co-workers offered to stop by and keep me company. I did not respond. I like him as a person, but I do not want to go out with him.

        4. Caroline

          I certainly did Adrian. Why would you assume I still would not be anxious about meeting someone if I wasn’t sure I was attracted to him? That may even make me more anxious trying to see if anything attracts me. There’s always that anxiety of failing and not having a good outcome. What if I do find him attractive because his body language, personality, wit and then he  doesn’t find me worth a second date? I eventually learned to enjoy the process of dating and not take it so personally. Might be a good idea for men also.

  3. 3
    MilkyMae

    I frequently hear that “traditional” women don’t ask out men and “feminist” will ask a man out.  I have not seen this in real life.  I know very few women willing to ask a man out but I do get the sense that traditional women are much more direct and assertive in the dating process.   Whereas, liberal women are more inclined wait for something to happen.  IMO.

    1. 3.1
      Caroline

      Adrian-I apologize for not making myself clear.  I think you’re operating on the assumption that the majority of women are overtly ego driven. We somehow feel validated by just being asked out? No matter if I am attracted to the man or not; the out come is the same. Failure to connect and have a relationship. A string of failures are failures. They don’t make one feel optimistic. I might even wonder why I only attract men I’m not interested in.  Women also put their emotions on the line even if we don’t ask men out.

      1. 3.1.1
        Emily

        Caroline and Adrian,

        I agree that women put their emotions on the line even though they usually don’t ask men out, but I would say our egos are involved. If I really like a man and we go out once but he doesn’t ask me out again, I am hurt and disappointed. If the same happens with a man I am not strongly interested in, I would say my ego feels bruised, especially if I wasn’t all that excited to go on the date in the first place.

        1. Caroline

          @Emily-I absolutely agree with what you said. I was just pointing out that the majority of women aren’t so overly ego driven that they don’t feel anything but “I’m desirable because guys ask me out”. When the guy is the only one who suffers disappointment as Adrian seemed to me inferred.

      2. 3.1.2
        Emily

        Caroline,

        I think dating is hard for both sexes. I do think it is ego-driven for some people. Have you ever been in a situation where you think a man is just flirting with you to see if you ask him out and you start to get the feeling he has no intention of saying yes even though he is encouraging your attention?

         

        1. Caroline

          Emily I definitely believe everyone has an ego and it plays into interactions. But honestly I’ve never been in a situation where I’ve thought a guy wanted me to ask him out. I guess I’m pretty traditional and if a guy either doesn’t want  to or doesn’t have the courage to ask me out; I figure there’s no real loss because although I am willing to put myself out there by letting him know I’m interested, I’m not going to ask a man out. For me personally, I’d prefer a man who takes the lead in dating. It’s just what I’m comfortable with but I’m sure other women are comfortable asking men out too.

        2. Emily

          Caroline,

          I like the man to take the lead in dating, too. I guess I didn’t so much mean these guys are expecting me to ask them out. I mean that they are extremely flirtatious and make a point of talking to me and interacting with me, but nothing ever happens. I call them low-level orbiters. They have no intention of asking me out or getting my number. They just like to know that I like them. It’s an ego thing.

        3. Caroline

          Emily-ice definitely had that happen also. I guess I just automatically think something about me just wasnt jiving with what he wants. He kept talking and flirting because he was digging deeper maybe to see what I was all about? If I had potential to be convinced into a 1 night stand perhaps? (Especially when they’re extra flirty). I guess that’s the cynic in me 🙁

          I had a guy one time give me his business card and said “email me and give me your contact info, next time I’m in town we’ll get together”. Well, I took his card, pulled a pen out of my purse and wrote my name and number on the back of his card and gave it back to him. I get you can guess the outcome-he never contacted me. I know it’s upsetting and confusing when guys do stuff like that but sometimes I think we dodged a bullet:)

        4. Emily

          Caroline,

          Well,  I work with a guy who every few months reappears.  Several months ago, he asked me if I wanted to go get a beer. As in RIGHT THAT MINUTE. His shift ended in a few minutes. I was surprised that he asked kind of out of the blue and said “I can’t go tonight but I would like to go some other night.” He never brought it up again. This week we had a brief interaction that was work-related and he asked for my phone number twice. I can never tell if he is serious. He says these things to me in a very playful, slightly sarcastic tone. It’s starting to irritate me.

        5. Caroline

          Emily-that is a turn off isn’t it! Makes me wonder if that guy at work has lots of “irons in the fire”? He only asks when some other plan fell through/at his convenience. I’ve always been told if a guy wants to date you-he’ll plan and ask. None of this out of the blue stuff. Although once you get to know the guy -spontaneity can be fun!!

          I had some similar stuff happen to me when I was online. The worst was this guy who texted me late one afternoon (we had been talking/texting but never met) asking if he could stop by and say hello at work (I have a part time job at a clothing store). I thought it was a little off but I said ok. Well, he looked at me through the window and never came in! He was staring in the window while talking in his cell phone. It was so embarrassing-needless to say the other girls got a big laugh out if my stalker!  He texted days later claiming he got a business call he had to attend to right then. It wouldn’t had benn a problem if he had informed me before days had passed and he described me down to my shoes I was wearing. Then he proceeded to ask me out by inviting me to his house to go on his boat. Who would meet a complete stranger at their home?

        6. Adrian

          Emily,

          The situation you describe with the guy at work… Is he by chance the same guy who you mentioned in another post, I am not sure because you mentioned 4 different guys you work with.

           

          >One guy you dated from work, weren’t attracted to him, but gave it a chance anyway and now you greatly regret it.

           

          > Second guy, you have a huge crush on but either he is not interested in you or you think he just won’t make a move because he is friends with the guy at work you dated.

           

          >Third guy is the creepy vibe guy (though perhaps he is the same person as the first guy)

           

          >Fourth guy is the one who sends you mixed signals (I am not sure if this is someone new or if it is the second guy)

           

          Anyway, my “first” opinion on the scenario you just described is: the guy is not really attracted to you. He is either single and lonely, or he just wants (what he thinks will be) easy sex, either way he doesn’t want anything serious with you.

           

          But he actions align more with someone who is scared of rejection. When you said, “I can’t go tonight, but I would like to go some other night”

          Translated, what he heard was “No I don’t want to go out with you, but I don’t want to be mean so I will let you down easy, I will say I will go, but I won’t give a specific date or time and hope he gets the hint and drops it”.

          When he asks for your number and you don’t give it to him, this is also reinforcing his fear that you don’t see him as someone you would date. You think he is being playful and flirty, but I think he is serious but he is delivering it in a passive aggressive way. He is not “intentionally” sending mixed signals, he is just probing you out of fear that you will flat out reject him. It is not mixed signals because he is playing some kind of game, it is mixed signals because he has no Confidence.

           

          From the things you have mentioned about your previous actions with men in your comments, I feel that the problem is not that you share his uncertainty, If you wanted him, you would have made sure a date happened.

           

          My guess is either you aren’t really attracted to him but you are feeling a little lonely or you don’t want to have a repeat of what happened with the other (same?) guy you mentioned before that you work with. Because if it goes bad, you still have to see him everyday.

           

          My advice is to First, make up you mind about if you want to date someone at work again. Then Finally, you need to just flat out tell this guy No, or ask him what he really wants, no games. Either way, you’ll have your answer.

           

        7. Emily

          Caroline,

          Yes, that is strange! That he would just look at you through the window and not come in to the store, at least briefly, and say hello. And then to wait days to contact you and explain himself. By that point, why bother contacting you at all?

        8. Emily

          Adrian,

          Wow. You’ve kept track of these guys better than I have!  🙂

          >One guy you dated from work, weren’t attracted to him, but gave it a chance anyway and now you greatly regret it. Guy #1

           

          > Second guy, you have a huge crush on but either he is not interested in you or you think he just won’t make a move because he is friends with the guy at work you dated. Guy #2

           

           

          >Third guy is the creepy vibe guy (though perhaps he is the same person as the first guy) Same guy as Guy #1

           

           

          >Fourth guy is the one who sends you mixed signals (I am not sure if this is someone new or if it is the second guy) New guy. We’ll call him Guy #3. 

          That’s interesting to me about how you interpreted the “I can’t go tonight, but I can go some other night.” I thought that would translate to: I want to go but I have plans tonight. I am trying to convey to you that I am interested by suggesting an alternate option.

          You hit the nail on the head, though. I am on the fence about Guy #3. So I am probably sending mixed signals. The only guy I have any real interest in is Guy #2, who I avoid because his disinterest/inaction depresses me.

        9. Adrian

          Emily,

          Your comment to him was translated that way because it was from the point of view of a insecure/unconfident man, not from the viewpoint of a confident men (the viewpoint given to most women in dating advice books, websites, and blogs ).

           

          I learned so much from the experiences of the thousands of women who comment on this site through the years. It is due to the testimonies of some many women that I first discovered the standard flirting and dating technique of unconfident men-being passive aggressive.

           

          Anyway, it depends on you. If you do go out with him, and it does not work out, there will be “Two” guys who you will now have an awkward work relationship with. If you can handle that, then I say go for it, since you are on the fence about him and not just plainly unattracted to him.

           

          A few caveats to be aware of though Emily, if you do go ahead and accept a date with him. Based on the testimonies from the many women here, if this guy is insecure in trying to ask you out, he will be insecure in the relationship, which translates to emotionally unstable. He may also get attached too quickly, becoming emotionally needy, and finally, you will have to somewhat take the role of the man in the relationship. Leading him or the dates. Sometimes being pragmatic and other times just being straight blunt. Because if you are not direct with him, he may misinterpret or over-analyze many things you say or do in a negative way.

           

          Of course since I don’t know the guy, he could end up being the greatest guy you ever met, I’m just profiling him.

        10. Emily

          Adrian,

          Thank you for your feedback. I am seeing the situation in an entirely new light. Have you ever thought of starting your own blog about dating advice?  🙂

          “I first discovered the standard flirting and dating technique of unconfident men-being passive aggressive.”  That is interesting to me. What you call passive aggressive I describe as “low-level orbiters.” Guy who circle you for a while, reappear, disappear, but never really do anything to move things forward. I thought it was ego validation. A woman gets frustrated with this behavior. You kind of think to yourself: MAKE A MOVE OR GO AWAY.

          “You will have to somewhat take the role of the man in the relationship.”
          That’s ironic you bring up roles in a relationship. I have plans tonight with a friend and her husband. In their marriage–and I do believe it works for them–she is in charge. So when all 3 of us do something, she arranges things in terms of what we are doing, where to meet, etc., though he will drive. She once joked that our friendship worked because “she is the man.” There is some truth to that. If I am dating someone, I prefer for him to take the more active role. As a woman, it makes you feel taken care of, and I appreciate his efforts.

           

  4. 4
    Karl R

    Obsidian said:

    “And I know what you’re going to say Evan about what’s effective and what’s not, and if we’re going to go there, then what’s the difference between you and the PUAs you like to whup up on?”

     

    The goal/outcome.

    If you’re just looking to get laid, and you have no interest in a long-term relationship, follow the PUA advice.  That’s the goal it’s geared towards.

     

    If a woman’s interest in you is generated (and maintained) because you are consistently negging her, that’s not conducive to a happy, healthy marriage.

    If the main dynamic keeping the relationship going is that I have the power, because I’m less interested in her than she is in me, then I don’t want to be in that kind of relationship over the long term.  Why would I want to marry a woman that I’m less interested in?

     

    Obsidian said:

    “Getting repeatedly shot down not only is embarrassing, it also, literally, hurts.”

     

    If you’re getting embarrassed or hurt when a woman politely turns down your in request for a date, then clearly you haven’t gotten turned down enough.  After a while, you’ll come to realize that it’s just part of the process of getting to a first date. (And if the women are actually trying to shoot you down, rather than politely declining, then you may want to be more selective about who you ask out.)

     

    Obsidian said:

    “women throw all the supposed ‘rules’ right out the window, WHEN IT COMES TO THE MEN THEY REALLY WANT.”

    “I’ve been hit on by much older women, something I did NOT enjoy in the least.”

     

    So these older women really wanted you, they threw out the rules and hit on you, and….

    Did they get what they want?  Did it turn out to be an effective, successful strategy for them?

     

    People (men and women) frequently throw out the rules when they meet someone they really want.  And it typically backfires.  Just like it did for the older women hitting on you.

    If you can break a dating rule without screwing things up, go ahead.  I’ve broken certain rules when it seemed that I’d do better by breaking them.

     

    Obsidian said:

    “What if what it took to ‘succeed with women’ entailed you, the average Joe, putting in 100% of the mating effort to win that middling 5 that the other guy had to do next to nothing to achieve?”

     

    Either you used a poor analogy, or you’re going about dating in a rather ineffective way.

    I don’t put in 20 times the effort that the drop-dead gorgeous guy did in order to get the same woman.  I put in the same amount of effort with each woman.  He succeeds 20 times as often.  And it doesn’t take either of us much effort:

    1. Stand out from the crowd.

    2. Be confident (or fake it convincingly).

    3. Flirt.

    4. Don’t be a suck-up.

    5. Ask for her phone number.

    6. Ask her out.

    It doesn’t take more effort.  It takes more time.

     

    Good looking guys find dating far easier than I did.  I could either sit around and complain about that, or I could go out and meet women.  (In my experience, if you complain about how hard dating is for you, women will assume that you’re the kind of man most women, including them, wouldn’t want to date.)

    1. 4.1
      Shaukat

      Hey Obsidian,

      How well has the PUA philosophy worked for you? Since you’re always on here complaining that the best you can get is a “5,” you’re probably not the best advertisement for ttheir services:)

    2. 4.2
      KK

      Obsidian said,

      “What if what it took to “succeed with women” entailed you, the average Joe, putting in 100% of the mating effort to win that middling 5 that the other guy had to do next to nothing to achieve? What has been “won” in this case? When I ask this question I am often met with snark and bile, but no one ever simply delivers a to the point bullet list of the bennies to be accrued. It’s as if the average Joe should just be grateful that he got something in the end. I need more.”

      Let me try to break it down for you. If (in your opinion) the best you can attract is a “middling five” then why wouldn’t you be grateful for that???

      (Without snark or bile) I certainly don’t understand what you’re so upset about? You feel that dating is so unfair to you, but maybe in some ways, it is. If you consider yourself an average Joe, does that mean you are a middling five as well? So, where is this unfairness??? It seems what you WANT is unfair. You WANT a 9/10. So, in order for you to be happy, and not angry or bitter, that is exactly what you are asking for… A (quite large) tipping of the scales in your favor.

    3. 4.4
      Evan Marc Katz

      You are here to convince men that life is unfair, women are selfish and coddled, and men should be more selfish and make less effort for women, or even drop out of dating.

      You call this a “dialogue” or ” conversation.” It’s not. It’s a monologue due to your unwillingness or incapability of conceding a valid point to anyone. Talking to you is like talking to Cliven Bundy about the government. Your beliefs are so ingrained that rational attempts to persuade a more moderate stance go nowhere.

      As such, as I’ve said multiple times, you are a waste of my time and everyone’s time on this blog. You are a troll, not a thought leader. You are the atheist going to stir shit up on Beliefnet. I understand. I used to be one of them. But what you don’t seem to calculate is that you are convincing no one here on this blog for women who want to find lasting love with a commitment oriented man who valies women. You are literally in the wrong place.

      No one is afraid if you or your ideas which you think are so hard to refute. We’ve refutes them. You just never acknowledged it.

      So please return to your podcast, your likeminded men, and harrasssing other prominent figures until they acknowledge you. I, for one, am sick of this unproductive conversation in which there’s a lot of talking but no listening.

      This is the end, O.

      As I’ve said before, I wish you success in your blogging career and hope you find something that makes you happy. Happy people don’t go on others’ websites to tell them how wrong they are; they just live their life. You are entitled to be a male social justice warrior. It doesn’t mean I’m entitled to have to spar with you on my own site.

    4. 4.5
      Adrian

      Damn!

      Karl R, it’s good to have you back!

      Now this is the kind of dating wisdom I’ve be hoping for from more experienced male daters.

      Thank you!

    5. 4.6
      Karl S

      Women want men to shut up and suffer in silence like the men of old did; when they say they want an emotionally available, expressive man, what they really mean is THEY WANT A MAN WHO IS EMOTIONALLY AVAILABLE TO THEM, AND WHO IS EXPRESSIVE TO THEM FOR THEIR NEEDS. Women really aren’t interested in hearing anything from men that might be upsetting to their sensibilities. They reserve the right for themselves to be able to vent their problems and frustrations.

      That’s a huuuuge blanket generalization to make against women there. Is that from some bitter experiences? To be fair, I’ve been in a toxic relationship with someone who fell into that behavioral category – But that was just one person. Since then I’ve learned to avoid emotionally abusive types.

      It’s dangerous to make your way in the dating world with any notions that “all women are trying to do x” to you.” You set yourself up to be playing games and manipulating against something that isn’t really there – or you end up only finding women who fulfill that prophecy because emotionally stable people will spot your issues a mile away and hightail it outta there.

  5. 5
    Adrian

    Obsidian,

    Three (sincere: without sarcasm or any hidden agenda) questions:

    1. Since I (and I dare say every man) completely agrees with you that being rejected is not fun. What is your solution? As you stated, unless a woman finds a man “really” hot and sexy (but not always even in those cases), women will not ask men out first. But you are completely against Evan’s “do what is effective not what you feel” dogma. So what do you suggest we men do to get women?

     

    2. You promote PUA’s, so I am curious (because I have never spoken to someone who was a true PUA or actually studied and applied PUA tactics, but I have read up on them), in your opinion, what are some of the misconceptions about PUA’s and don’t they still teach you have to approach, and generally make the first move with a woman first? The same with men who court women, the only difference being one having a short-term and the other having a long-term goal with the woman?

     

    3. You speak a lot about African Americans dating, but don’t you believe that attraction trumps race? I know you have all the stats about which races get more attention, but I am simply asking, do you believe that if a woman or man finds someone of a different race attractive, then they will not let that person’s skin color hold them back?

    1. 5.1
      Adrian

      Obsidian,

      Thanks you for coming back just to answer my questions.

       

       

  6. 6
    KK

    “You are a troll, not a thought leader. You are the atheist going to stir shit up on Beliefnet.”

    Lol! Omg, Evan, I nearly spit out my coffee. Too funny!

     

  7. 7
    MilkyMae

    I think men read this advice and they roll their eyes.  Afterall, the fastest way to get a man is to ask him on a date.  However, most women are not looking to get a man.  Adult women want what a man can deliver (ie a relationship).  Waiting for man to ask may not be the best approach but some women will feel like they are getting less if they ask.  Furthermore, women don’t have as much testosterone so asking and rejection is a big deal.  I think the problem for women is that they need to be more clever.  They need to ask without asking.  Waiting for an alpha, masculine man can result in no man or possibly a really horrible man.  A state penitentiary is filled  with confident, alpha men while the backoffice is filled nerds who have a future.  Women should do more than eye contact and smiling.

     

    1. 7.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Great. Lemme know how it goes for you. Just understand: it’s not just alpha males who ask out women. The vast majority of us got the memo in third grade that we had to initiate. The ones who didn’t…well, again, good luck to you with that.

  8. 8
    gl

    If, when I’m interacting with men online, the messaging seems like it’s the only interaction we’ll ever have, I give them my number. So far 2 out of 10 understand that this is a green light to ask me out, most of the time it turns into more messaging over text. There was one phone call, hats off to him! I liked that. But I figure the guys who don’t ask me out aren’t interested or lack the confidence I want to see, so I’ve decided that I’m not going to waste my time on the idea that any man I talk to will somehow become my boyfriend. It’s a crapshoot, for sure.

    1. 8.1
      Karl S

      I’ve always found the idea of calling a stranger up for a phone conversation extremely awkward, especially if I’ve been messaging them off a dating site. It’s much easier to just meet in person. I’m way more confident doing that.

      As a veteran online dater I only gave my phone number to people as a backup so they could let me know if they were running late or couldn’t find me after we’d organized to meet somewhere for coffee through messaging.

      I think you might be limiting yourself a bit if you insist on a phone call as a deal beaker. I know Evan recommends it, and it probably varies depending on your age, but its pretty unpopular across gen Y these days, for sure.

  9. 9
    Caroline

    IMO-women need to be more proactive. I had a mixed bag dating online like many do. Unfortunately I had a long string of frustrating, disappointing and downright confusing dates with men online. I took a break and worked on myself knowing I was the common denominator in it all that I could effectively influence/change. I’m rather shy, so I worked daily at talking to strangers in whatever situation.  I went out if the way to interact when I could have easily remained mute.

    I didn’t ask my guy out but I did approach him. My friend went home early one night leaving me alone at music venue /bar. I’d seen him several times there before. I went over and said hello, introducing myself and asking him about his boots (which I had noticed). I explained that I was looking for a nice pair for my son for his birthday. Where did he get his? We chatted a bit. I told him I was glad to meet him and I went back to my table. Not too long after, I saw him circling the room right up to my table. He asked for my number. We’ve been dating ever since (5 years-many ups and downs ). In other words, I had to learn how to be more effective in my approach to dating. You can only really change yourself.

    1. 9.1
      HollyTx

      I’m glad Caroline seems happy, but I can’t help but wonder: If she had left that guy alone would she not have missed out on 5 years finding someone marriage-minded? In my, albeit limited experience, passive men that can’t, don’t, or won’t approach a woman are also too passive to actually do much else and getting involved with them is like a rocking chair, passes the time but doesn’t get you out of actually being single and onto the next level of  life: marriage, kids, combining resources, making plans for a life together.

      1. 9.1.1
        Caroline

        Thanks for the comment Holly Tx. You’re absolutely correct in that my guy is sometimes a bit passive for my what I thought I had wanted.  But I look back now and believe maybe has been the perfect guy fir me at this point in my life.  I’ve been married twice. The 2nd time fir 23 years to an alcoholic with problems that greatly affected our two sons. Both my sons live with me. The oldest is upon the verge to finally move out. My youngest (18yo) is greatly troubled. It appears he us one of those people who have to do everything their way (like his mom he’s stubborn). Being basically a single parent it is my responsibility to get them to spread their wings and thrive. In other words, maybe my guy is just the perfect balance fir me personally. Living apart definitely has its advantages for someon e in my situation.  My guy has been there fir me through hard times with my sons, personal surgeries/health issues and unnecessary family drama. I feel truly blessed to have such a living and caring man in my life. We see each other a couple times a week, spend vacations together  and  have shared many new experiences with each other. If circumstances were different, maybe I’d be longing for more. With two jobs, personal health issues, and sons still at home, he is a total breath of fresh air to my reality.

        1. Caroline

          Sorry for all the typos! Holly-he also is a traveling salesman who takes care of his elderly mother and uncle when he’s home. It’s one if the things I like best about him! If I’ve learned anything through my relationships, it’s that your loved ones don’t need to be in conventional terms “family”. We can still treasure and love them under what others may not feel is the ideal.

      2. 9.1.2
        Joe

        Forgive me if you aren’t interested in marriage, or if you and your man are currently engaged, but if not, TBH 5 years is way to long to date someone if you do want to be married.

        1. Caroline

          Joe-I absolutely agree! I guess this column is for women wanting marriage. Got the memo now-thanks.  At this point in my life; I don’t need a relationship tied up all pretty in bows and wrappings of what others think a loving relationship should look like. That’s why I so uneloquently rambled on about my situation. I totally understand and appreciate Holly’s comment.

  10. 10
    Caroline

    @Hollytx-even if my circumstances in life were different, and I wanted something like marriage-it would still be on me if I stayed. Men don’t waste your time. You waste time by not declaring what you need and sticking around despite your needs not being met.

  11. 11
    HollyTx

    At the risk of sounding like a Rules girl, which I’m really not, I still think some things hold true – men not motivated enough to ask a gal for a date also have a high probability of not being motivated enough to proactively ask for marriage in a reasonable time frame. So if you don’t want to be in the “exclusive-but no-rock waiting line, don’t put yourself in it.

     

    1. 11.1
      Caroline

      Yet-I did not ask him out. I merely engaged him in conversation about his boots (which I actually took his advice and bought some for my son from the store he recommended). So is it the fact that I actually walked over and engaged him in conversation the problem? Does that make me less of a woman since I didn’t sit on my barstool flicking my hair and preening? Yet he did ask me out and has continually courted me. Is someone a waste of time knowing and caring for if you aren’t in a position of successfully engaging in a full time relationship where you get a ring, mingle your finances, and have kids?

      1. 11.1.1
        Caroline

        Marriage does not guarantee a lasting, successful life together. Just ask any divorced person.

  12. 12
    HollyTx

    Caroline, I’m actually giving my opinion in general and not really focusing on your specific situation. Take care!

  13. 13
    Rebecca

    It seems like the video basically concluded that women don’t have to ask men out – we just need to let guys know they won’t get a florid rejection.  But what I’m really curious about is why it’s still weird for women to ask men out.  I get it that some women don’t want to and the social convention is that they don’t have to, but what about women who have no problem asking men out?  In my first quarter century, I’d say my relationships started about equally from my asking guys out and from guys asking me out ’cause I just never learned in third grade that I wasn’t supposed to.  After my divorce I spent a lot of reading/thinking/talking about relationships and I made a conscious decision when I re-entered the dating world to be patient and let the man ask me (and to take it as a sign he wasn’t that interested if he didn’t) but I still really don’t get it.  Even if I COULD wait for a guy to ask me out, what is the downside to my asking him?  I mean, the risk of rejection, but if I’m willing to take that risk, is there a reason to imagine the relationship won’t develop pretty much the same if I ask him out as if he asks me?

    1. 13.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      It’s a good question, and no, if you don’t mind rejection, by all means, do exactly what most men do. The issue is generally that the more confident, desirable men will usually do the asking themselves, so there’s not much reason for you to have to put yourself through any rejection. In short, if he doesn’t ask you out, he’s not that into you. Furthermore, there’s something to be said for men pursuing women in that we tend to value things that are hard to come by more. This doesn’t mean playing games, refusing to return calls or acting generally unavailable. But it’s why I encourage women to mirror men’s efforts instead of reaching out. Allowing him to pursue you and work to earn the right to sleep with you makes you more valuable in his eyes than if you do all the work for him. Think of it in work terms. Do you value the company that is constantly calling you to come in to interview or the one where it’s a reach if they’ll even accept your resume?

  14. 14
    Rebecca

    I had to giggle at the work analogy because I am not “successful” in the way that the typical EMK client is – I would love, just once, to have serious competition for a job I’m seeking!  But I hear what you’re saying.  I don’t understand why men value what they have to work for more than women do, but I do value being wanted, so I’m just accepting this general truth and living accordingly.

    Thanks for the response!

  15. 15
    Andrew

    I know i’m not alone in this, even Max Kramer, a.k.a. Tripp Advice, said this in one of his e-mail newsletters, he said this:  “It’s tough to be a guy.
    Why do we have to be the ones who ask the girls out, right? Why can’t it be the other way around?…
    Damn you society… and damn your bizarre social norms…”

  16. 16
    Stephanie

    I’ve asked a guy friend of mine to hang out. I do have interest in him hence I initiate text which he always replies nicely and I also asked him out for brunch which he said yes. Within our chats, he mentioned that he is not interested in a relationship right now and furthermore gave me advice that I should try and meet someone else sooner and settle for a long term relationship with someone from home (i’m overseas right now). I sort of know the answer that he is a goneski , but thought i’d post anyway since it’s sort of on a similar subject and maybe initiating something with a guy clear things up from earlier. It sucks but hey… saves time a bit.

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