Why Are Women Expected to Date Men With a Lower Educational Level?

Why Are Women Expected to Date Men With a Lower Educational Level?

Dear Evan,

I was at a speed dating event last night for the second time. Just like the first time, it was full of smart, pretty, successful women in their thirties and forties and men of similar ages with manual labor jobs (and a few running their own manual labor businesses) but no men of equivalent professional or educational status except for one doctor. Why he was there, I do not know, as he made it clear that he was not really looking to date anyone. He did however buy me a drink in the bar afterwards and asked me what I thought of the event. I said I would be unlikely to go again because I have nothing in common to talk about with the men that I have met at these events.

He proceeded to give me a lecture as to why I shouldn’t automatically dismiss dating the two guys who were responsible for service washes in the launderette as they may be perfectly nice people and that career women in their thirties get what they deserve if they don’t. I am just wondering how many other men think like this? For me, it seems plain common sense that, while professional women with masters degrees may be compatible with men in less successful professions, the guy that left school with no qualifications to work in the launderette is highly unlikely to be a good fit.

It is not the first time that I have come across the attitude that career women deserve to be alone if they don’t want to date men without any education, or men a generation older, or the obese. I am just wondering how many men really think like this.

Fiona

Fiona,

It doesn’t matter how many men think like this.

Just like KC’s email a few weeks ago about how she receives emails from disappointing men she meets online, you’re illustrating an amusing concern with men’s preferences in women.

Men do what they want. They don’t do what you want.

My answer to you is largely the same as my answer to her.

Men do what they want. They don’t do what you want.

If he is a dishwasher and he finds you pretty, he’s going to ask you out.

If you don’t go out with him because you intimate that you’re “above” him on the dating food chain, it’s predictable that he might lash out at you.

You may be technically correct that he’s not of your social station, but that’s of no concern to the man you’ve just insulted to his face.

Literally, the ONLY thing he can do when you tell him that you have nothing in common (without getting to know him) is tell you that you’re wrong for judging people and that this attitude may come back to haunt you.

Women tend to adhere more to their checklists, which usually call for a man who is just like you, but better. And without your flaws.

He’s right about that. This is one of the big blind spots that women have in dating.

Allow me to explain.

You painted a black and white world, Fiona. It wasn’t that he was less educated than you. It’s that he was a laundry operator. It’s not that a man is older than you, it’s that he’s a generation older than you. It’s not that he’s a few pounds overweight, it’s that he’s obese. All of your examples are extreme, but not all men are extreme examples of anything.

So, to be crystal clear: no one (besides the fat, stupid and elderly) is saying that you have to date the fat, stupid, or elderly.

Got it? Good.

How do I find a man with traits I desireWhat I am saying – and what these men are inartfully suggesting as well – is that you don’t marry a list of traits. You marry a human being. And if you never think outside the box, you may well find yourself standing alone at the end of the dance.

The reason that I call this a blind spot for women is because women tend to adhere more to their checklists, which usually call for a man who is just like you, but better. And without your flaws.

Taller. Richer. Smarter. Funnier. Saner. Sexier.

Alas, men don’t care if you’re taller, richer, smarter, or funnier.

We just want you to think that we’re amazing.

Which is why men can date ANYONE – regardless of education, income, and height – while many women can only date 1 in 1000 men who are 6 feet tall, with a masters degree and a $200,000 income.

So are some men unrealistic in thinking that they deserve a chance with you?

Yes, they are.

Are they also correct in pointing out that they are open to a lot more women than you are open to men, and this may hinder your ability to find lasting love?

Yes, they are.

To your original question, no one is saying (apart from the jilted men) that you deserve to be alone. But I would be remiss if I didn’t pull out the nugget of wisdom from the flawed logic of the laundry operator.

6
2

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Comments:

  1. 331
    Peter

    A note on the immigration debate from way back.
    Two close family members are married to people from completely different cultures, races and religions.  Both partners in both couples have put in serious work to maintain their marriages.  Nobody had “It’ll be a happy marriage because I deserve it.” attitude.  There were parental reservations on all sides.  In the event, decades later, they have strong marriages despite fluctuating fortunes.  The one couple did consider Canada, which is as close as things get to a rainbow culture in the Anglo-Saxon world (New Zealand has slipped steadily for 70 years) but left the UK for Australia, which is perhaps as far away as it gets from a rainbow culture.
    I am making glacial progress on my own transnational marriage, albeit less extreme than the two discussed above.  There is no “because I deserve it” about either of us.  Which of us becomes the immigrant has yet to be decided.  I speak Russian, badly.  She speaks no English and my business is in Russia.  Marriages based on perfect fits with the check list, such as perceptions of higher male worth on dimensions like cleverness, where no thought need be required can often be “I deserve it” marriages.
    And a note on topic
    I am as snobbishly educated as the UK gets with a master’s in business.  No woman seriously outranks me.  There is an upper limit to educational snobbery as a social advantage.  Most PhD’s and M.Sc’s just mark you out as a Boff, which I was amazed to hear revived in the late 1990′s amongst teenagers.  Boffin was 30′s and 40′s British slang for mad scientist/over focused engineer with no social skills.  “Artillery” was the equivalent Public Schoolboy put down – the army sent clever people lacking common sense to the artillery to calculate bombardments. Usually the British variant is overwhelmed by the American e.g. nerd, geek whatever the difference between the two may be).  The variation for clever women was Blue Stocking.  These tended to be academics and teachers.  Margaret Thatcher, an industrial research chemist and the first scientist to be the British Prime Minister (which she thought was an equal breakthrough), was a Boffin who definitely married a man less clever than she but was still marrying up.

  2. 332
    Balisier

    To get a good idea of how people think, just look at the US President.  When he won the elections first, there were so many people saying he should ‘upgrade’ in the wife department.  It was hardly likely they meant he should find someone smarter, fitter, taller/more statuesque, better mother to his children or better support for his Presidency.  They were clear on the fact that they weren’t thinking any of those things.  They just meant he should have a non-black woman at his side.  To them, none of the qualities mentioned are as important as that for a successful man.

  3. 333
    Aisling

    @Ballsier, #361.  That is a very sad commentary on our society/values, and unfortunately very true. I think Michelle Obama is an amazing woman, worth a hundred Halle Berrys or other like trophies. She has shown incredible grace and class in the face of vitriol that no other First Family has had to suffer.  That Obama had the good sense and taste to choose her speaks well of him, regardless of whether one agrees with his ideology.

  4. 334
    JoeK

    @Balisier #352

    First, let’s get all of Karl’s quote from #351:
    “[A woman] may appear unapproachable … even if that’s not the impression [she's] attempting to create. A few of these women probably were interested (despite their body language). They’re the women who assume that men are “intimidated” by them.”

     
    Balisier #352:
    “We are talking about black men here.  No black man is intimidated by any black woman – I repeat no black woman can intimidate a black man.  (Except maybe his mother).”
     
    That’s a rather broad statement – let’s adjust it to “few black men can be intimidated…” If it’s an accurate statement, then it supports what Karl is saying – that men aren’t actually intimidated, but women believe their behaviour is from intimidation, rather than simply men perceiving women as not being interested.
     
    The only part a woman can control is the message/impression she gives – just do your best to send the appropriate message. :)

    You’re in a more challenging position than many other women, given the statistics (Karl can probably find them!) – but as a well-educated black woman you’re in an even smaller minority (especially since it sounds like you’d prefer to date black men?). Fortunately you sound accepting of “marrying down” from an economic/education perspective.
     
     

  5. 335
    Johnson

    Sorry, ladies, it’s only going to get worse. Over time, many, many college educated women will have no meaningful shot at marrying college educated men. This is due to the increasing disproportionate ratio of women on our college campuses.
    I have a friend, a professional who will soon be getting married to a bank teller. She makes at least four times his income (no, that is not a typo), both working full time. While I don’t consider myself a snob, I have a hard time seeing how the man would function in that environment, as a man. I know it would bother me somewhat.
    But, thanks to unbridled feminism that promotes the interests of women at the expense of the men’s. When the college educated women finish earning all their degrees, they will have no choice but to settle for high school dropouts, and other barely educated men.  Isn’t life grand?

  6. 336
    Johnson

    Balisier  #350 
    I am a young, black man, a professional and single. I have tried dating many black women, but the experiences were uniformly bad. No, I’m not making this up. The arguments, the power struggles, etc, etc were simply to much. The more educated the woman was, the worse it got.
    While I am not trying to suggest that women of other races are saints, I have had some of my best dating experiences with these women. They are generally very open, and would rather cooperate than insist on their own way. And the respect has been great as well. I admit I love my own race (many of he black women I dated were physically attractive), but I might end up marrying outside the race.  I think black women need to look in the mirror, and make some changes in how they define weakness and strength. Maybe things will change. At this time, many of them think that being agreeable and feminine is weakness, while being stubborn and difficult is strength.

  7. 337
    JustMe

    Many people see being agreeable and feminine as a weakness.  Makes me sad

  8. 338
    Sparkling Emerald

    Sometimes I am glad to be a smart, strong, underachiever.  I didn’t go to college and I am a fairly low wage earner, so just about any man I date would earn more and be more educated than I am.  (Not that I give a rat’s patooty about a man’s income or education level, I am looking for kindness & integrity)  Also, men don’t seem to care about a women’s career or education, so I don’t lose any points with men over my lack of a formal education or my relatively low income.  Despite my lack of formal education & fairly low wages, I left home at 18, and was completely self supporting until I met my first hubby at age 24, then once again completely self supporting between my 1st & 2nd marriage.

  9. 339
    Kurt

    It isn’t that women are “expected” to date men with a lower educational level.  However, most women are generally turned off if the man has a lower education level or at least seems “dumber” than they are.  I suspect that women are hard-wired to be attracted to men like this, much in the same way that men are attracted to younger or prettier women. 
    A problem, however, is that some very average-looking women with advanced degrees only want to limit themselves to men with similarly advanced degrees.  Many of those men are going to have less academically advanced (and more attractive) women chasing after them and won’t be willing to settle for the less attractive women who have the similar degrees.

  10. 340
    Sparkling Emerald

    I don’t know that women are “expected” to date men with lower educational degrees, but statistically speaking, with more and more women getting more and more advanced degrees, that puts a great portion of the male population in the “less than” category.
    I really don’t care about educational level, but I do care about smarts.  I think many smart people don’t have advanced degrees, and there are people with degrees who aren’t all that bright.
    Being that I only have a HS diploma, and a certificate of completion in my career field, most men I date are going to at least be my equal in education level and most likely be more educated.  As long as we can have an intelligent discussion, I really don’t care.

  11. 341
    Anna

    @Johnson
    Wow, no offense but you really sound threatened by women who are more argumentative than you and please don’t give me the “men want nice sweet women”. I was reading some of the posts and it felt like I was listening to Bill Bellamy’s character in the Brothers. Wow! You feel that emasculated that you’re ready to play the stereotypes: “mad angry black women” vs “sweet-natured subservient non black women”? 

  12. 342
    Lau_ra

    To be honest, I’ve never met a woman who would not be willing to compromise on guys level of education or height or income – my friends and I dated guys who weren’t “the perfect package” and were fine with that. Yet the problem for me and my friends is that those guys usually don’t love themselves enough. All of such relationships of mine where I was stepping out of my comfort zone and dating the guys I would not usually consider as potential mates, ended up in a total wreck, as the guys could not see the human behind my success. It was their inner “demons” that were telling “you’re not good enough for her” . I just got tired of walking on eggshells most of the time and their constant need for reassurance, as any achievement of mine, be it at work or not, was met with “ohhh, so now you’re even more perfect, I can’t deliver anything for you” instead of just eing happy for me, which is the greatest way of delivering. And it has happened every single time! 

    I find it way easier to connect with men who *really* don’t care about my education and other “check-list” type of stuff, not just in the terms they don’t care about it only just as long as I’m not higher. And surprise surprise – it usually happens when guys are of similar level that I’m in. I’m just frustrated at the level that men expect women to compromise, and even if you do, you’re still someone they see as their rival. Why is it so hard for men to realize that women do what they do (pursue their interests, careers and etc.) for themselves, not in order to impress someone? 
     

  13. 343
    Yogagurl

    Laura…I felt sad reading your post. Not sad for you per se but sad for all the women out there willing to love a  man who has less and the men not able to love back.

  14. 344
    Aisling

    Yes, I feel Laura’s pain.  I have had this happen several times.  I dated a 6-years younger organic farmer a while back.  I thought he was a gem at first.  I honestly did not care that I made close to six figures and he made next to nothing.  Then, there were the multiple incidences of tardiness as well as being completely stood up. He had made multiple inferences that I was “too smart” for him.  I don’t think he ever realized that I dropped him for being so very immature.  And, he made me feel devalued.

  15. 345
    JoeK

    @Lau_ra #371
     
    “I’m just frustrated at the level that men expect women to compromise, and even if you do, you’re still someone they see as their rival.”
     
    I think you’re missing where men are really coming from – it’s not that they’re “expecting women to compromise”, but rather that they’re not attracted to those things on which you feel you need to compromise. The reality is that most men aren’t attracted to women on the basis of their education, their success, their income. If you feel you need to compromise on these things, then stop presenting them to men as if they’re what men should be attracted to. They aren’t.
     
     
    “Why is it so hard for men to realize that women do what they do (pursue their interests, careers and etc.) for themselves, not in order to impress someone?”
    Men do realize this with women who act as if they do these things for themselves. Unfortunately too often women feel the need to “peacock” these achievements to men – which comes across as competitive…and men generally aren’t attracted to women who act like men. You don’t attract bees with vinegar.
     
     
    I find it way easier to connect with men who *really* don’t care about my education…just as long as I’m not higher. And surprise surprise – it usually happens when guys are of similar level that I’m in.
     
    Let me rephrase this more accurately – “I find it way easier to connect with men who have an educational level *equal* to or *greater* than mine”. 
     
    Evan has addressed every one of these statements before, many times. They’re all variations on the same theme: “Men should love me for the things *I* think are important”.
     
    Well, they don’t.
     

  16. 346
    Rose

    And women fall in love with men for reasons thay think are important. Jok k and one of the things most women need to be emotionally turned on to a man is that he is able to be a good provider. It is just the way it is. And to want you to be the fathers of our babies ths is what most women want. A good provider.
    Yes it isn’t the same the other way around.
    It is what it is.

  17. 347
    Lau_ra

    JoeK,
    you’re twisting my words. I never said men should love me for being educated and having a good job and etc. etc. In my love life I’m a woman, not a professional.
    However, I named the reason why women don’t usually want to date men, that haven’t achieved as much – its this constant devaluation that women usually experience. “You’re too smart/ you’re too educated / you’re too this/too that”. Do you think its nice hearing such things form a man you really like or even love? Is it nice being belittled/criticised about things that form a part of you (I definitely won’t become less educated, less outspoken, less witty , etc.)? Thats what women hear from these guys. Many of them are somehow unable to realise that a woman who dates you, no matter how successful she is, is not your rival.
    Unfortunately too often women feel the need to “peacock” these achievements to men – which comes across as competitive…and men generally aren’t attracted to women who act like men.
    Well what do you see as “peacocking”? Cause I’ve experienced its just plain telling what you do or what you’ve studied,  after they’ve asked you about it, makes men tense and is perceived as peacocking. I don’t run around showing my diplomas and I don’t say things like “I’m Laura, I have MA in law and I do this and that” but I’m not gonna evade answering such questions so that I don’t scare some poor self-conscious guy away.
    I think you’re missing where men are really coming from – it’s not that they’re “expecting women to compromise”, but rather that they’re not attracted to those things on which you feel you need to compromise.
    Yeah, as I said before, that sort of shows the true colors – most men don’t care what you do and how much you earn only if you’re not above them.
    So yes, I do find it easier to connect with men who are just as educated and etc etc as I am, cause I don’t have to proove them *I really do like them* again, and again, and again. 
    What men here fail to see is the lack of the guys ability to accept a woman with all that she is (yes, all, just like you expect us to acccept you). Of course, Evans advice is aimed at women, but as there are lots of guys in here as well, so I’d like to ask – those who say that womens success makes you feel emasculated, what does that say about you? There will sometimes be some women judging you according to how much you earn and etc., but it will allways be you, who will definitely be judgemental about that. Self-introspection needed, huh?
     
     
     

  18. 348
    Yogagurl

    This reminds me of a couple of experiences I’ve had.  My handyman told me, should I become single again, that what I do (have my own business) would be intimidating to men.  I was shocked because I don’t see myslef as particularly ambitious but I do have something. He also said that most men have issues with strong women but not him! 
    Also I had a male friend who disappeared on me. It happened right after I completed a major project for a certain cause.  I happened to be in the top ten of the state of this project. I shared with him what I did (not as bragging because I was surprised my non ambitious self even did it!) just to share what is going on in my life and he just stopped being my friend.  This particular man has no career and makes little money (I never cared about that just wanted a real friend). Anyways, I can’t be certain but that was my feeling. Suddenly I was more accomplished than he was and he wasn’t comfortable. Sad because all I wanted was the friendship!

  19. 349
    JoeK

    @Lau_ra
     
    I haven’t twisted a single word of yours. You stated very clearly that you only connect with men who’s educatational level is equal to or greater than yours – which means YOU are the one excluding THEM for their educational level.
     
    Nothing inherently wrong with that, as it makes sense to me – I’m not attracted to women who can’t hold a conversation with me either. But don’t let’s paint this as the men having an issue with your education, when you’re the one doing the excluding. Own it – and use it to find the right guy.
     
    You’re using specific example now, rather than the generalized statements before about men not wanting to date women who are more successful than they are. I merely pointed out that this isn’t really what it’s about – that often women are so proud of those achievements and think men should be attracted to them for those achievements…and they’re not.
     
    One can always cite specific examples of anything…but those examples are unique to that situation. Heck – I’ve dated “bitchy” women…I could just as well say “why are women always bitchy” from the women I dated who were like that…but extrapolating to “women are ALWAYS bitchy” would be inaccurate, and would keep me from finding a good woman.
     
    Preaching to men on this blog to “change” is not very useful – I would venture that most of the men here are of the more introspective type anyway – so yelling at us of all people is rather silly.
     
    Take from it what you will – if you wish to believe that all men are intimidated by your success, then you’ll never find a man to date (why would you continue to look if you believed this were true?). Until you change that perspective you’ll only see his “intimidation” rather than his indifference.
     
    See, (as Evan constantly repeats) the only thing you can change is you.
     
     

  20. 350
    JoeK

    @Rose #375
     
    “And women fall in love with men for reasons thay think are important”
    Agreed. Though I’m not sure what your point is – as this is a blog for women to understand men. If y’all want to preach to men here, good luck – you’re wasting your breath for a number of reasons:
     
    1. This is a blog for women
     
    2. Generally, men don’t read blogs or talk about relationships in the way women do (yes, there are men here, see #3)
     
    3. Generally the men who do comment here are a small subset of men as a whole, and preaching to them is as useful as yelling at the wall. It’s not like any of us are going to go running back to our “our circle” and preach “the women on Evan’s blog are saying we need to change” so let’s start changing men! Men don’t do that sort of thing, in general. We typically keep our own council, as it were, or discuss specific problems with specific friends. 
     
    4. As Evan’s been saying: Keep telling men to change and see where that gets you.

  21. 351
    Rose

    My point being that preaching at women isn’t going to work either.
    It is what it is.
     

  22. 352
    Lau_ra

    JoeK,
    you keep twisting my words again. I guess you just didn’t bother to read the part of my previous comment where I said I dated guys who were less educated/earned less than I do/etc. (so I don’t exclude them from my dating scene) and what where the experiences with that. I prefer dating men who are “in my league” because of their self-confidence not because of their degrees. 

    Worn that T too many times not to notice the pattern of guys self-devaluation in the situation when a woman has achieved more in some field, even though they say its not important (yet it somehow gets in their head in a form of demon, whispering “not good enough”).

    Too often men project what they think about themselves in a negative way onto women.

    You think this observation of mine is not worthy of attention, as its me who has to change, but it actually might be useful for some other man who reads the thread. Unless you presume its just women who might have flaws that sabotage their relationships.
     
     
     

  23. 353
    JoeK

    @Rose #380
    Who’s “preaching to women”? This is a blog for women to understand men better so they can be more effective in dating. It is NOT a blog for men. Evan’s work is all about helping women. The men who are on this blog are (in general) trying to present their perspective on dating so you can understand where men are coming from. It’s quite interesting to note how often women here tell the men posters they’re wrong.
     
    That said, preaching for men to change on a blog for women is (as I’ve said, and Evan repeats ad nauseam) a waste of energy. Go ahead and try it, see what it gets you. You’re just telling the men on THIS blog they need to change, simply because you don’t like the message.
     
    Also, you can’t change other people – you can only change yourself. Whether that’s through altering your behaviours, changing your approach to men, or picking different men, that’s all you, as a woman, can do. Oh, you can yell at the top of your lungs that men need to change, but that and a dollar will get you a coke at McDonalds.
     
    So, Rose, Lau_Ra, et al, you have a choice: continue to tell men like me that we’re wrong and that men need to change and you’ll continue to have the same results in dating.
     
    Or you can listen to some of us who have some very good insight, take it to heart, and you’ll have a much better chance at finding a man who is good for you.
     
    Evan – I give you much credit for continuing this blog.
     
     

  24. 354
    starthrower68

    So if one even brings up her education/occupation as a result of a man asking what she does for a living or if she went to college that’s peacocking? I am getting the sense from what I see that it is.  I guess from now on, I will just lie and say I’m a checker at the Safeway.  I mean, after all, since it’s up to me to change….

  25. 355
    Balisier

    Johnson#365 – Maybe you need to introduce my friends and I to some of these black women – maybe we would learn something about being stronger.  I don’t argue and I am friends with strong, sweet, soft spoken black women – so many that in my view, we are in the majority.  These are just like the ones from all walks of life that I grew up with and have met throughout my life.  Don’t use your loudmouth friends as an excuse.  I won’t think any less of you if I see you with a woman of a different race.  I’ll just be happy you found someone to love. 

  26. 356
    Nicole

    @Balisier, you should take anti-black woman rhetoric from black men like Johnson with a grain of salt.
    These men basically want all of the privileges and none of the responsibilities of being in a relationship.  What they call arguing is some unfortunate woman who is tired of their garbage asking they she doesn’t see or hear from him regularly.  Basically, a lot of black women who insist on only dating black men tolerate a lot of bad behavior…there is a big imbalance in colleges, grad schools, professional schools, and the professional ranks, so if you are a black woman looking for a black professional peer you outnumber them, and it creates a LOT of dysfunction in the community overall and in the way that people let themselves be treated in the context of dating and “relationships.”  And even among the less educated, the gender imbalance still exists b/c of prison, early death, etc. so again, you hear women (like one of my past hairdressers), explain that it’s a given that a man is going to cheat and you just have to hope he comes home (yes, she really said this).  And economic instability among those people means that the problems in the relationship are even magnified, b/c those men cannot fulfill their own financial obligations let alone take care of a family (yet they do father children).
    An average looking black man who might be something as mundane as an engineer becomes a hot commodity, and they learn it, and they live it and stay single a LOT longer than their white or Asian counterparts.  Evan is a well-educated, successful man.  His chronological peers who have the same kind of education did not spend their 20′s and 30′s hoping to find love.  They don’t have a vision of having a lovely family and wife to take care of unfortunately.  Marriage rates for black men earning over six figures actually drop off quite precipitously.  
    I am tired of black men who don’t date black women claiming it’s b/c black women are awful, and I’m even more tired of non-black (usually women) taking it as a fact b/c if a man was making that comment about women in general, or white women, you’d be up in arms disagreeing with it.  I mean, look how riled up people here get (and I’m pretty sure most of the women here are white) arguing with Evan over GOOD ADVICE.
    If a black man doesn’t like black women, he doesn’t like black women. If he doesn’t want to marry a black woman, he doesn’t, and that’s fine with me.  But you realize that if a bad relationship(or several) was all it was to make you hate the women/men of your own race, then based on the stories I read here, most people would be dating outside of their race exclusively.
    Dont’ know what race you were, but sure you’ve dated a lot of men who were your race, and some of them were not great.  If I assume you are white, after a few bad white boyfriends do you start claiming white men suck and are hard to please and hard to be in a relationship with?
    Johnson hasn’t dated all black women.  And what he is doing here is what always happens to POC.  The mistakes of a few (assuming they were even mistakes) become the mistakes of us all.  Which is BS.  And you should understand that as much as he does.
    I hope he finds what he was looking for.  But he should be comfortable enough in his choices to acknowledge that they were independently made, and not anyone else’s fault (and funny, b/c if he was making excuses about any other part of his life being difficult becaues of his race, no one would accept THAT as fact either-but since it’s negative talk about black women, it must be true).  
    So I realize you said you knew black women who weren’t like that, but I take issue with you referring to the women he knew as “loudmouths” b/c that is an ugly racial stereotype (angry black woman) that gets trotted out by way too many people.  It seems to be a poor choice of words for someone who claims to be friends with black women.  
    And if he chimes in again, I’m sure he’ll say I’m an example of a difficult black woman b/c I responded to his claims.  So just some food for thought the next time you see a black man bad-mouthing black women.
     

  27. 357
    Balisier

    @Nicole my reign as a queen of sarcasm must truly be coming to an end.  Johnson was clearly being liberal with the truth so I used a strong differentiator (loudmouths) to describe these ladies he allegedly dated.  It was based on my disbelief that a man at the socioeconomic level he claims to be could only find so-called argumentative difficult women with which to associate.
    My post was actually edited and only half printed.  The other half of my post concerned my most recent personal experience dating a professional black man wherein a seemingly good relationship over 7 months abruptly ended with an ultimatum of marriage or he walks after he discovered that I was almost finished earning my doctorate.  I asked for some more time to get to know him better but he was hearing none of it.  I mean we dated for 7 months before he even knew I was earning a doctorate because quite frankly – I did not think it was relevant to the relationship.  Isn’t that what most men on this thread who say they have no problem with an educated woman want?

  28. 358
    Nicole

    @Balisier, sorry about that.  I just see too many black men like Johnson who want to claim that the problems that exist in black dating, which have another layer of complexity that I don’t think a lot of other peopel have, are all b/c of black women.  And I’ve seen non-black women happily jump on the bandwagon of bashing us. So it wasn’t clear you were being sarcastic in your response to him.  
    We get labeled with a lot of negative stereotypes that other women never gt saddled with, so when I hear people even jokingly promoting the angry black woman thing, I have to speak up.  
    Interesting…if you don’t mind me asking, are you a black woman, b/c I just find that black men who date non-black women use different standards and “rules” so I wouldn’t have expected you to get any grief about that if you weren’t black.  Just my impression from other behaviors I’d observed.  So since a lot of black men will claim that every race of woman except black women know how to treat men, don’t argue, aren’t difficult, I guess I’m surprised that a man would leave in a huff about your doctorate b/c it shouldn’t change his basic beliefs about what how your personality differs from that of a black woman.  
    But trust me, the idea that a woman with money, an education, and an opinion is a problem comes up a LOT, and on sites focused at black people, we get attacked by men like Johnson a LOT.  Somehow, having your life together is a problem.  And yet if you say you are single, they’ll also attack you as clearly having some other flaw that deems you unworthy of a man (b/c you know, everyone who has ever gotten married is a super model).  Black women don’t date interracially a lot, for a myriad of reasons, which leaves them vulnerable to a lot of crap in attempting to have a dating life/find a relationship.  And the decision to “date out” isn’t 100% yours b/c you’ll encouter a lot of racist attitudes and have to be on your guard there as well.  It’s difficult.  

  29. 359
    Henriette

    @Nicole: as a white woman I can’t presume to understand the issues black women face in the dating world.  I’m truly sorry for the hardships and unfair stereotypes you’ve suffered.
     
    I can assure you, though, that most women seem to receive a backlash from “their own” men.  Even perusing this blog, which generally attracts a thoughtful crowd, you will find COUNTLESS comments from 1st world men complaining about 1st world women.  We’re masculine!  We’re entitled!  We don’t give nice guys a chance!  We’re fat!  We’re rude! 
     
    These insults are usually followed by an admonishment that 1st-world males avoid us at all costs and instead pick brides from Taiwan/ Guatemala/ Ukraine/ China/ El Salvador/ Thailand/ Serbia/ insert 2nd-or-3rd world country here.  Apparently, woman from those cultures all know how to cook but possess lithe figures!  They are highly intelligent yet only argue with their men in the most feminine of ways!  They aren’t gold diggers!  They are polite and kind and extremely grateful! 
     
    We’ve seen men and women complain on this blog that their city/ state/ region is harder for dating than any other.  Evan gently reminds the writer than it’s tough-but-manageable everywhere.  I think this phenomenon springs from the same mentality.  Many of us blame our race/ culture/ location instead of realising we’ve just met some lousy individuals or *gasp* that we might not be playing the dating game quite right.

  30. 360
    marymary

    Henriette
    True. I’ve read a lot of posts (not just here)  from Asian men complaining about Asian women. ( I notice those, being Asian myself).  Asian women complaining about Asian men.  Christian women complaining about Christian men.  And so on.  It makes sense that the circles we move in are where we’re going to experience the most problems, and joys.   I don’t have any Martian friends, so I have nothing to say about Martians.
    My family has white/asian, asian/asian. and black/asian partnerships.  It’s worked out fine (so far). 
     
     

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