Why Certain Men Will Never Do Well With Women – And What You Can Learn From Them

I’ve got a great story that I want to share with you today.

Even though I bill myself as a dating coach for “smart, strong, successful women”, I still maintain a few male clients.

I enjoy working with guys because, when they’re motivated, they’re hardworking and highly coachable. Plus, the men who gravitate towards me are usually “nice guys” who just need a little bit of an edge to succeed wildly with women.

In other words, most of my men are the one you should be dating in real life – the kind that are open to learning and growth and are willing to spend thousands of dollars to learn how to better connect with women.

The guy who called me today is completely different – and I had such an interesting phone call with him that I wanted to share it with you.

“James” tells me that he’s 30 years old, living in Seattle, working in IT. He sounds like a bright guy. A little angry, perhaps, but I’m used to getting clients who aren’t too happy with the fact that they’re reaching out to a dating coach.

James tells me that after focusing on his career for most of his 20’s, he’s been dating intently for the past year.

And it’s been TERRIBLE.

There isn’t a woman in the world who’d enjoy going out with a man who believes that ALL women are fickle and unfair.

It seems that whenever he goes out with women, they’re all so SHALLOW.

They never want to TAKE THE TIME to get to know him as a human being.

They’re all looking for magical CHEMISTRY and trying to figure out within 5 minutes whether he’s their SOULMATE.

The women he wants IGNORE him online, DON’T RETURN his calls after dates, and generally seem to want the PERFECT man.

As a result, James HATES dating.

Now, between you and me, it doesn’t take a dating coach to diagnose what ails James. There isn’t a woman in the world who’d enjoy going out with a man who believes that ALL women are fickle and unfair.

Still, I sympathized with James on the phone. After all, this IS his dating experience. It’s real, not imagined. And it’s normal to feel frustration when you can’t solve a problem.

I asked James what he thought that I could do for him. He mumbled something about helping him meet women who were different than the women he’s been dating.

I couldn’t hold back any longer.

“I hate to tell you, my friend, but the problem isn’t with all the women in Seattle. And dating coaching isn’t telling you where the “quality” women hang out. After 12 weeks of coaching with me, you know who’s going to be the same? Women in Seattle. As such, the ONLY thing we can do is change how YOU’RE approaching dating. Does that make sense?”

James paused for a second, gritted his teeth, and said, “I don’t want to change very much. The problem isn’t with me – it’s with THEM. WOMEN are the problem. I’m asking you to help me find better ones. Are you telling me you can’t do that?”

“What I’m telling you, James, is that you’re the common denominator in your life. And, logically, since I can’t change Seattle, or women, or Match.com, or anything else, the greatest shift is going to come in how you approach women, how you understand women, how you flirt with women, how you connect with women. But it’s about YOU learning, and YOU changing. That’s what yields the best, most long-lasting results.”

I can’t help someone who doesn’t truly want to understand, learn, and grow.

James and I aren’t going to be working together. And that’s fine by me. I can’t help someone who doesn’t truly want to understand, learn, and grow.

And the not-so-subtle reason I shared this story with you is to ask you to reflect on whether you have anything in common with James.

Do you think dating is TERRIBLE?

Are you frustrated that men don’t take the time to get to know you?

Do you get bent out of shape when men IGNORE you online, DON’T FOLLOW UP after dates, and generally seem to want the PERFECT woman?

Do you think that, if only MEN changed, you’d be in a happy relationship by now?

If so, I hate to tell you, YOU are the one who needs to adjust. Just like James.

You’re not “wrong” that men could improve in 100 different ways. You’re mistaken in thinking that men are going to improve. Your job isn’t to CHANGE men.

It’s to become the kind of woman who UNDERSTANDS men, ATTRACTS men, KEEPS men happy, and CHOOSES good men. This is the key to a successful relationship.

And no, it’s no different than how James needs to learn to attract, understand, and connect with women in order to keep them happy. Until he does, all he’s going to do is complain about YOU, and how unfair you are to him.

In reading this blog, subscribing to my newsletter and http://www.evanmarckatz.com/coaching/, you have a chance to learn something that will change your life.

The question isn’t whether this information can make a difference.

The question is whether you are going to be like James and continue to blame the opposite sex for everything.

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  1. 1

    Evan, how about a corny analogy here:
    It sounds like enrolling in dating coaching is a lot like learning to play an instrument. And it SHOULD be that way. You find someone who is a good teacher (good coach) and learn techniques to make you a better musician. If it’s playing scales, learning tricks to speed-read music, etc., you do it and trust that it will make you more skilled.
    The difference between music lessons and dating lessons seems to be that people take the latter too personally, like this guy James. “What? There’s something wrong with me?” And it shouldn’t be that way. It’s not something wrong with you. You don’t think there’s something wrong with you if you don’t know how to play the Mozart Clarinet Concerto right off the bat. And so it should be with learning how to be effective in relationships.
    Maybe part of the problem is not just that people take it very personally, but they also hear a lot of sketchy advice along the way because everyone thinks they’re experts at relationships – heck, even if they’ve never been in one. So those who seek advice don’t know whom to trust. It’s different with music. No one would attempt to be a clarinet teacher if they couldn’t play clarinet themselves.
    Evan, I can understand why every once in a while you may feel as though you’re swimming against the current. Taking advice too personally and a history of hearing both good and bad advice may be two reasons.

  2. 2

    Haha! Women in Seattle ARE terrible. I’ve lived here 16 years and that’s not changing. What James needs to do is what I did: play the Seattle game on ITS turf. He needs to get involved in the outdoors scene (me: skiing and mountain biking). Sadly, these are largely male-dominated pursuits. But in the end, he’ll feel better about himself, prioritize his needs instead of prostrating himself in front of a very fickle and dull Seattle dating scene, and make a ton of new friends who are active and fun…and know women who are active and fun.

    I go on 3-4 dates a week with women I meet all over town. Granted, these women are awful (any combination of boring, judgmental, too mannish, drink too much, don’t drink at all, not very well read, rude, late, etc.) But I never give up and I go into each date hoping to be surprised.

    1. 2.1

      What do YOU mean by ‘too mannish’? Ive heard in my life a few women refer to themselves in this way. I’d always thought that they’d seen themselves in this way as a result of comparing themselves to other women. I’d never heard it from a man. Could you describe what you mean by ‘too mannish’?


    2. 2.2

      hes not talking about women in “Seattle” lol

  3. 3

    dunno,  but, although I’m not too enamored with the pickins where I live either, I reluctantly have to admit to myself, “Wherever you go, there you are.”  and I think that, in a nutshell, is what Evan is saying in this post.
    It’s a huge waste of energy to try and put a whole demographic into a box.  The best approach I have found is to look at each date, no matter who it is, or how long it’s going on, as another opportunity to learn more about myself and better ways of relating.
    Seems to me that lots of people are looking for some kind of magic pill, but the truth is that once you even get into the relationship, there are always going to be conflicts, and we never stop learning and growing.
    I think that’s exciting!
    The journey and the destination are one and the same!

  4. 4

    James is the commom denominator in all of this. He needs to take some responsiblity for his part in his past, failed relationships. Sadly, I have met too many men like James in my life, one not too long ago.

    Nothing turns me off more, than a man who group all women together and don’t appreciate me as an indivdual.

    1. 4.1

      This comment is absolutely perfect. These guys are sort of complaining about all women in general, stereotyping them, and that’s why I personally would act the way they’re moaning about. Because of he way they act.

      1. 4.1.1

        Except you woll never know who James or anyone of these guys are when you meet them. When you do act like that, you only reinforce his thinking. Isn’t it just like a woman to lay the blame on the man these days anyways? This is why most of are seeing how suoerficial and entitled american woman are these days. Its impossibke to have an adult relationship with the women nowadays because most of you are children who never grow up. Anyways the men aren’t good enough for you ladies anyways. Enjoy your later years with the armada of cats you will hoard.

        1. Dililah

          “Anyways the men aren’t good enough for you ladies anyways.”

          Yup, you’re too mature for us. Can’t argue with that grown-up thinking.

        2. Susan

          Lol..pot calling the ketyle black. You are guilty are grouping all women together and acting immature yourself. If you have read ANYTHING Evan has written, he says that you and James accept these type of women. If you want to date someone different, then stop accepting these type and move on. Growing up might help too!

        3. jacknozzle

          You sir are amazing!

  5. 5

    Detha: technically, James has no failed relationships, unless you call a few (bad) dates a relationship.

  6. 6

    Smash #2

    <<Women in Seattle ARE terrible.>> <<I go on 3-4 dates a week with women I meet all over town. Granted, these women are awful (any combination of boring, judgmental, too mannish, drink too much, don’t drink at all, not very well read, rude, late, etc.) >>

    Why are you dating them then? 3-4 dates a week? Is that just about volume? Yes, some people are jerks, and some are nice enough, but we just don’t click with them. If you think a woman is too “mannish” why date her? Is it really that awful if someone doesn’t drink? Surely it can’t be that you know so little about every woman you date that each one turns out to be – surprise – an “awful”, “terrible” human being? 

    1. 6.1

      Im sorry to hear how society’s  believes and prejudices has made itself broad to affect other people’s relationships. MANY months i have been observing relationships and i have always hated how how society always try to find something to blame and/or classify  things when something doesn’t go their way. I feel that men don’t give women enough credit and the affect they impact their lives. Cooking for them when they don’t  have too, paying the bills, handling financial debts and settlements and working. All these are great benefits of course but unfortunately,  women are undermindedand and when they express their issues and attitude  they are more known for being a bitch. Im sorry to see how people  focus on the negative than the positive. On the contrary i still believe men themselves too are misfortunant. Many books are posted about understanding men and statement and questions like “how to find the right man”. I see many times men are treated like robots by women fulfilling specific  roles  for only themselves to them happy.But when a man goes off course its role they try to change the core. I disagree but agree with Steve Harveys book. I agree with it because  it doesn’t mislead women to misguided men who pen women to walls after being used like trophies. I disagree it because it opens men to being used for financial in betterment and it makes women believe that they don’t have put forth effort in the relationship and doesn’t  allow them to self reflect. Whats also sad is how women declare something  “manish”. For example ” its a mans job to make the first move, to be the provider, to take care of the woman, and to pay for the meal”.Love is not made to be someone’s bitch!IT’s okay for women to make the first move, its okay to pay for the meal, its okay sometimes for a woman to be a provider.I know many will disagree with this comment just because none of this apply’s for them or because of the prejudices they hold themselves. However, this statement is not specifically  about you, its sbout how society thinks about one another.  Thank you for listening to my comment

  7. 7

    I’ve been fighting the temptation all day to forward comment #2 to all my Seattle girlfriends… somehow I doubt that every woman in a large West Coast city is “any combination of boring, judgmental, too mannish, drink too much, don’t drink at all, not very well read, rude, late, etc.”
    Don’t get me wrong, I live and date in a Midwestern city where most guys haven’t seen a book since high school… key word, though, is “most” guys, not all. After I moved to a different site, updated my profile, opened up to meeting guys who live 40+ miles from me, shorter guys, slightly older guys etc… fun, energetic, intellectuals suddenly came out of the woodwork :)

  8. 8
    Katarina Phang

    Goldie, I was told by a Seattle man I dated for 8 months that Seattle guys have turned into “metrosexual liberals.”  They have no balls, wishy-washy and can’t close the deal with women (they don’t pursue or do the “man” stuff anymore).  So I guess, I’m not sure about the causality though, Seattle woman becomes more mannish now to compensate this lack of drive of Seattle men.  

    And actually a friend on my FB, a Seattle woman, confirms this and complains about this also. 

    1. 8.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      This shouldn’t have turned into a debate about the merits of Seattle. The god’s honest truth is that I changed the city to protect the identity of “James”. Which just reinforces the point that it’s not the city, it’s the individual who is at the root cause of the issue.

      1. 8.1.1

        I also live in Seattle though, and I can also attest to women being pretty hard to please here. And please dont assume lack of results is due to a lack of efforts. 

        1. Bill

          Dating is too complicated. I live near Washington DC. My way of coping with a lack of dates  was to drive 60 miles north to Baltimore. They have numerous strip clubs where the girls are cute and friendly. I was nice to them and they were nice to me. Everyone wins. I have the time of my life.

      2. 8.1.2

        Evan you really are sora clueless when it comes to the dating scene. I understand your audience is mostly woman but man do you have to so obviously cater to their needs? How about just plain truth as you see it? And if this is how you see it, then the power of observation isn’t strong at all with you.

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          If you read my post and you came away with the idea that I was the clueless one here – just for making the observation that sad guys who bitch about women are not going to do well with women – well, then you can return to a blog frequented by similar sad guys.

        2. kpak76

          Wasn’t just that reply though. Your saying that since “james” is the common denominator. He is most likely the problem. How many single men have you polled and asked them why they are single? A vast majority sees how women today are and want nothing more to do with them. They are entitled, narcasstic, and only are looking for a man to serve their needs. They were never taught how to be givers before being a taker. Why do you think so many men say dating seems like a job interview these days? Lets also just ignore the fact (yes it is fact) that most American women today are obese. Contrary to feminist thinking, obese is not sexy. I know very few men who will choose the obese ladies over slim healthy looking women.

          Sure men has their own problems, but that comes a lot due to the downfall of “patriarchy”. Men just dont know how to act like men anymore.

          If you truly want to help your clients find a soulmate, well teach them how to be attractive and desireable to the primal instincts that most men have. You have it, deep down you too know what it is men want. The self serving, entitled, what can you do for me, is not the lady we are seeking.

        3. kpak76

          Evan you are just one man giving women all sorts of advice with what men want. Your missing the point that there are a large and growing amount of men who think exactly like “james” and myself. Women have told us so long that they dont need us and now we are finally listening. This really is a huge social problem that so many around seem to be ignoring. Maybe you should invite a fesh point of view. I know seceral good candidates who can do thism Janet Bloomfield and Karen Straughen are both excellent choices. The man known as “sandman” in MGTOW circles is another. Maybe you should approach one of them for a fresh perspective.

        4. Evan Marc Katz

          Kpak, if you scour the 8 years of archives, I would think you would probably agree with 95% of what I wrote about “what men want”.

          The thing that YOU don’t get is that we’re talking about a Venn Diagram here.

          There’s what men want. There’s what women want. The point where those two circles overlap is where happy relationships lie.

          You are very attuned to what men want, but either tone-deaf, indifferent, or incapable of giving women what THEY want.

          But your focus is not on that – it’s on blaming women for their failure to give you what YOU want.

          So while I could probably endorse what you want from women – to feel accepted, appreciated and admired – you need to understand that women don’t like weak men who have no confidence, angry men who blame women for the ills of the world, cheap men who keep score, selfish men who are only focused on their needs, insecure men who feel “less than” around other men, and men who think that the answer to being successful with women is to treat them poorly. In my limited experience, the MGOTWs of the world personify all of those qualities. THAT’s why you don’t do well with women; it’s not “women” as a whole.

        5. kpak76

          Evan first off you have no idea how successful i am with women. You have no idea what type of man i am also. I am not cheap, i dont treat women poorly, i dont consider myself selfish. I also have plenty of dating opportunities now.

          I will admit that i exuded many of the characteristic you said because i was frustrated with dating. I cant count how many times I’ve been “friend zoned”, or rejected in my 20’s. However since i realized the woman im looking for most likely doesn’t exist anymore, ive learned to adapt. You see im that “nice guy” who said fuck it and just did what i want. In my 20’s i thought very much like you. I’ve never been happier since i made my realization. Women no longer frustrate me because i don’t have the any expectations from them except the bedroom. I know in the end i will probably live my life alone but as a man i xan vope and thrive with it. Like you said, men deal with solitude better than woman.

          So my choice to go MGTOW has beenthe best decision i made for my lifem a stark number or men are making this choice. As of 2012 25% of men 35 and under were never married. That number continues to rise.

          Evan get ready, buisness is about to boom for you in the next few years. While i don’t agree with many of your articles (yes this isn’t the first one ive disagreed with). I respect how you set yourself up to take advantage of the enormous wave of single ladies who are hitting their 40’s and is still looking for that “special” someone. I just wish you would tell them the truth and not feminist lies and propoganda.

        6. Evan Marc Katz

          You couldn’t have written a better reply to reveal your blind spots, Kpak.

          You think that you’ve got it all figured out with your red pill…but you don’t. Here’s how I know that.

          You said you thought like me in your 20’s. Wrong. See, I always loved women. I may have been frustrated and single and went on a few hundred bad dates, but I never made such broad sweeping generalizations that denigrated an entire gender like you do.

          You had a realization that removes expectations from women except outside the bedroom. You know what that leaves you, doesn’t it? Women as nothing more than sexual objects instead of cool, fun, supportive, loving partners. But yeah, you got it all figured out.

          You know you’ll probably be alone and you’re cool with it because you’re a guy who can separate sex from love. Well, guess what: the best predictor of one’s happiness is a happy marriage. Longer lives, better health, less stress, fun, sex, companionship, family, everything. By “going your own way,” instead of learning to be a better man and choose better women, you’re opting out of all of that.

          I didn’t get into this business as a means of following a trend. From 2003-2009, I was just a dating coach, open to working with women and men. But you know what? 80% of my clients were women. Why? Because they actually care to UNDERSTAND men. So why would I provide a service to a gender that was largely unable to look in the mirror or take responsibility for its flaws? Guys don’t want to understand women – they just say things like “How can I get laid” and “Why does she want to discuss our relationship?” This is why there are no relationship coaches for men; they would rather keep doing things wrong, but do it THEIR way.

          And there you have it, Kpak. You’re doing it wrong, but you’re doing it YOUR way. Congratulations on your empty sex and your vitriol for women. I’m going to go into the kitchen and kiss my wife and kids.

      3. 8.1.3

        Going into the kitchen and kissing your wife is a super beta move. You need to alpha up on her or else she is going to treat you like a Herb and start banging Sancho while you are off making a living and providing for her.

        You need to think about these things! Your wife already probably thinks you are kind of funny because you are always talking about all of this love and feelings junk. Real men don’t give a crap about love and feelings, they just want a BJ and a cold beer.

        You need to make sure your house is in order bro! Man up!

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          Thank you for proving, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that no woman with any self-esteem would want you, and that you’d be a crappy husband.

          Real men are ones who treat their wives well, are loyal, and give as much as they get, thus ensuring a happy marriage.

          Your model is doomed for failure, because one person (your wife) will always feel unappreciated.

          Leave the relationship advice to me and go pound your chest on a MGOTW blog.

        2. JennLee

          I think this guy has never had a real relationship. Not one that lasted beyond a few dates. He has bought into the idea that the only way to keep a woman is to treat her like dirt. That is laughable. When you open the news paper and see those anniversary announcements, you can believe that all of them are men and women who treated their spouse with love, kindness, patience, and respect. Both also had to sacrifice to make this happen. But I believe that for them, it didn’t feel like a sacrifice. Maybe the man used to run with his buddies nearly every day. Well, you can’t have that and be married to. No woman is going to sit at home alone, making you sammiches. She may do it for a little while, but when she realizes that you just prefer the company of your friends, she is going to find a man who prefers her company. Don’t be mad when that happens, because it is your own crappy attitude that will cause it to happen.

          Learn to strike the proper balance. If you have plans to spend some time with friends, and she makes a fuss that you have to mow the lawn first, you have three options, and only one is correct.

          First, don’t get nasty and tell her, “Look, B___, I will get to it when I feel like it.” To harsh to be proper dialogue with somebody you are supposed to love.

          Don’t be a wimp, and say, “Gee, OK, Honey, I will get right on that for you.” Too wishy-washy. No spine involved.

          The power play is to say something like, “Look Honey, you are right, the yard needs mowed, and I see that. I will get to it in a day or tow, but right now, I have plans to hang out with my friends. Don’t worry, I’m not blowing you off, I will get to it as soon as I can. Just not right this moment.”

          This is the best of both worlds. You show her in a loving way that you acknowledge her concern, and that this is important to you, but it also shows that you have a spine, and she does not run you, like a servant, or child. I am not saying you have to put her off every time she wants something. That would get old. But it is not a bad thing for her to see you stick up for yourself in a gentle way, occasionally, especially when appropriate. It is actually very attractive, and makes her feel safe with you. You are hitting on all cylinders with her by being strong, confident, gentle and kind, all at the same time. You don’t have to be perfect at this, you just have to try.

          What you PUA’s don’t seem to understand is that it is possible to fool us for a short time. Yes, sometimes we fall for the PUA BS, but eventually, we see it for what it is, and we leave. Eventually we see the cold, callous behavior as just that. Not strong. Just cold and callous. Selfish. Then we leave.

        3. Clare

          Yip, guessing you’ve never had a relationship that lasted beyond a handful of dates or a few weeks. Guessing you are the kind of prince who likes to get a girl into bed and then never call her again.

          That’s fine. Ride the wave as long as you can. At a certain point however it just looks sad and pathetic, especially when you’re 65, alone and still trying to pull this crap. Shame. I just feel really sorry for you.

        4. Not Jerry



          You said it!

          You will never have a wife, so no worries about that, right Evan?

      4. 8.1.4
        Cara Randall

        That’s hysterical! With the name of the city changed, it certainly brings new light on the original comment from “Smash”. It other words, knock off the chips on your shoulders and try to become the best person you can be instead of acting like one entire sex owes you the perfect mate to put up with whatever you dish out. WOW!

    2. 8.2

      Lol battle of the sexes at its best. Who will lose? The next generation.

      1. 8.2.1

        Yes evan u was EXACTLY like you. I too thought women were always special and that i had to my best to impress them. Why? Because i too bought the feminist lies, hook line and sinker. I thought the way to win a girls heart was to impress them by doing everything i could for them. Basically i was a doormat for women when i was younger.

        I know exactly what my choices has made me. A male equivalent to a slut. But since i actually have money now, women dont seem to care so forgive me for taking advantage. But really this isn’t about my personal experiences now is it.

        All that is a myth. Your quoting studies from our grandparent age and thinking it applies today it doesn’t. Truth is we dont know because the mass amount of the singles generation has not hit the elderly age. But current studies suggest that marriend men are far more stressed than single men. Why? Because they married a princess who stresses them out.

        I have met very few woman who truly understands what women want. Loyalty, respect, purity, not using sex as a weapon to get what she wants, and knows how to take care of herself for her husband. You’re obviously are meeting a certain type of women in your career because they are the ones who want to do something about be uhh ng single. What you’re not exposing yourself to is the other population if women out there who aren’t like this.

        Ah yes, im getting judged by a mangina (yup judging you right back) Hope your wife doesn’t take you to the cleaners like most woman will nowadays. Even with your jaded view and hate you display for things you dont understand, i would hate for tou to go throughthat nightmare. Heres to hoping you are among the 40%.

      2. 8.2.2

        I habe yet to see you poke any holes in my argument.

    3. 8.3

      Katrina, you say that men aren’t mannish anymore, and that men don’t peruse anymore than what they use to. So, are you saying that there is a lack of real men? I think you need self reflection. I would only assume that a woman with as shallow thinking as yourself would have a difficult time finding a really good guy. There are just about as many good and real women out in the dating scene as there are real men. Women have a sense of self entitlement that goes far beyond their ego. Not all women are like this, but most are. This is why men in general have such difficult times in finding good women, because most of the women who are relationship worthy are never single, and that’s unfortunate for men. Men shouldn’t be portrayed as entertainers who has the sole duty of making a women happy at any cost, while the woman only provides sex as collateral – why can’t women think outside their self entitles ego and pursue a man if she likes him? Or why can’t most women do what they can do to please a man? – apart from giving him sex once a month? Good men want a woman who can make a man feel special – but with feminism and self entitlement issues woman have, there will never be any real supply of good women. No decent guy in his right mind would want to be with shallow women. There are some women here who completely put the blame on men, and that the fact that some men who can’t find relationships with a women is because of them. Is it possible that the problem could be that a lot of women who are single and in the dating game, are just out right shallow, fickle, liars and complete users, and or gold diggers? Yes men can be the same as well, but more women have these bad qualities than do men. I don’t hear any women admitting that these are major problems that they have when it comes to dating, on the contrary, they just blame men to cover the fact that most of of these women are just outright arseholes – the only difference is that some are nicer than others. I think self reflection needs to happen on both sides, but more so for women. SO STOP BLAMING THE GOOD GUYS! IT”S HALF A WOMAN”S FAULT IF SHE BRUSHES ONE OFF!!

    4. 8.4

      God forbid you may have to do something Katarina. God forbid you may have to step up to the plate and step outside of gender roles and societal norms.

    5. 8.5

      My ex boyfriend was a self proclaimed asshole who wouldn’t change for anyone and he told me this personally. He could get a girl, his problem was KEEPING a girl and his relationships only 2-3 months. I guess they all thought they could change him and got mad when they couldn’t wrap him around their little finger. I never tried to change him and certainly didn’t want him wrapped around my little finger! After him and I broke up, I cried for a few days and never wanted to date again! But then I felt like that would be letting him win. He was definitely a “lesson” and taught me not to settle for any guy treating me the way he did!! I’ve been talking to a great guy that I was talking to before him and I started dating and after my ex and I had been broken up for a few months, (I made sure I was totally over him before pursuing anything with this guy) we’ve been getting closer but are taking it slow. We have alot of the same beliefs about family, relationships, what we want out of life, what we like to do and all and it’s great to finally meet a man who actually respects women! He told me how he used to treat women and how he had to change his way of thinking, so it can be done, but only IF the guy wants to change. My ex didn’t want to and that’s fine because him walking away let me find someone who was right for me. 😉

    6. 8.6

      I am not wishy washy liberal. I’m pursuing success and I love women. But I find pursuing women rather than success backfires. I am labelled a creep or desperate or needy. but I have to pursue in a special way that has to be learned or taught, at least until I get one in the kity (and really I’m only seeking one good one). And closing the deal- ha, I don’t want to be accused of not being able to close the deal. But it may be true. Anyway its all perspective. Life is all perspective. And since women are the buyer (as well as the seller), their perspective matters to me, the seller (and the buyer). I’m a kind of guy who is often hyperaware (i.e. need to relax, tune in, get in touch with pop culture), but I dress nice, am smart, tall, fit, so Doc Love says don’t rush headlong into rejection. I’ve done that 1000 times. Be more cary grant. I think this is true. But I will close the deal when I get an opportunity. I’ll try create an opportunity pro-actively. But ahh life is actually quite orderly, and it makes sense, and is logical- except for dating, which is the opposite of everything else in human life. HELP! I’m willing to work and change. Boy-girl theory from Winning Through Intimidation. Want the other less. Be a challenge- Doc Love. Don’t give a sh-t or f-ck about what others ting. Be more edgy break the rules, but at the same time don’t be a racist or holocaust denier. Point is the reason I probably can’t pursue or close the deal is not because of lack of balls- I’ve done many courageous bally things in relation to women and I’m not shy to ask out, but because my mind realizes so often their Interest Level is low- under 51, and I’m the kind of guy that is willing to take risks but I don’t want to always invest a lot of time and energy trying to raise someone’s interest level from 51 to 99 if it’s only at 51 percent, because it might take a lot of energy, and I could put that into career. But I know I need help, I’m getting older, getting grayer, but I actually prefer listening to women. I prefer when they open, and get vulnerable around me and talkative. I don’t like being the talker. Not that I want to be a friendly beta empath. I want them to talk but in a way that they’d talk to their dear hubby or whatever. And I’ll just listen and not tr to fix, and maybe I’ll smile or smirk. Bottom line, I may need to get more in touch with society and culture (my roomate said girl will think I’m weird if I don’t know who miley cyrus or janes addiction is-wtf) and I need to be more successful in life and grow my passions- and I am on that path or journey, and I need to be willing to give out energy, but bottom line factor says I’m just not making girls interested enough or raising their interest level. Or if I am, they are not flexible givers, but structured takers. Cause I closed the deal in the river the other day- yeah had sex in a river with a stranger to end a year long drought. But anyway Interest Level

      1. 8.6.1

        I wouldn’t waste any time with Doc Love.  He tells men to be mysterious and a challenge, which to me, just seems to mean difficult and evasive.

        Only pursue women who show high interest to begin with.  Don’t play his silly numbers game, just read cues of interest.  Is she physcially affectionate with you ?  (not sex at first sight affectionate, but does she RESPOND to your touches, kisses and hugs)  Are her facial expressions happy and excited ?  What about her voice.  Does it bubble with enthusiasm ?  Does she ask you questions about yourself ?  When you tell her a little about you, does she have a “tell me more” attitude ?  Or is she just waiting for “her turn to talk”.  When you ask about her, is she willing to share a bit about herself ?  Does she answer your calls when you call (or return them PROMPTLY if she honestly can’t answer them ?)  Does she say “YES” when you ask her out ?  If she honestly can’t make that date, does she tell you WHEN she IS available, without it having to be dragged out of her ?

        I agree with the Doc on not chasing dis-interested women, and women who take and never give anything in return.  He also doesn’t advise men to try and bed women at first sight.

        But he also tells men to make the woman initiate ALL physical contact, to wait 10 days to call after first getting the phone #, and that ALL conversation about the relationship be female led, INCLUDING the marriage proposal.    He also talks to his male writers in a very cosndescending tone, calling them “pal” and scolding them for any masculine acts, such as initiating a kiss or asking the woman to be exclusive, which he claims is the woman’s job.

        If I have started off dis-interested in a man, I have rarely ever been moved to become interested.  (I can only think of a one-off time where that happened)  His relentless pursuit didn’t help, and in fact just made me feel uncomfortable,  BUT acting cool and indifferent has NEVER made me start liking a guy I didn’t like to begin with.

        However, I have STARTED out interested in a man, but quickly lose interest if I sense a lack of interest or any kind of “playing hard to get” BS on his end.  I assume he’s not interested, so that’s the end of it, PERIOD.  In most cases these men are truly dis-interested, but in a few cases, I have blown off men who I felt had blown me off, only to have them come back and try to game me some more.   When I was in OLD, I had some men intitially contact me, only to try and get ME to ask them out, in fact, I found step by step instruction on a men’s site on tactics to get a girl to do the chasing, and I SWEAR, that article must have contained a direct link to my OLD profile.

        My boyfriend of 9 months pursued me from day 1.  I responded with excitement and and enthusiasm from day one.  He has told me every step of the way, that he enjoys my playfulness (not as in playing games, but as in having fun ) and how affectionate I am.  We are both in our 60’s, I guess we both figure life is to short to play games.

        He is under 6 feet, no formal college degree, has gray and red hair, and is a man of modest means (as am I)  but I find him to be sexy, exciting, intelligent, caring, loyal, generous, supportive,  kind and my “dream piece”  (No college degree or million dollar bankroll needed for any of those qualities)  So either I am a unicorn, or these so called MGTOWs who claim that ALL women are gold diggers looking for a millionaire clone of George Clooney are full of it.  Since most of my women friends are either with good -hearted men who don’t fit the 6 foot millionaire mode, or are just looking for a good hearted man who will treat them well (who is REASONABLY attractive and finacially stable)  I think I’ll just go with the MGTOW’s are full of it.

        And while Doc Love isn’t an MGTOW, he does have a scant few good points to make, but I think his make the woman chase you  by being difficult and evasive part of his advice is NONSENSE, and doesn’t just weed out gold-diggers, but also drives away the really good hearted, interested women as well.

        So don’t play “Doc’s” games.  Look for a kind hearted, giving woman who is interested in YOU (not your wallet) and let her KNOW you are interested in her.

        1. DeeGee

          SparklingEmerald said: “We are both in our 60’s

          This is a key point in your reply.

    7. 8.7

      maybe because they can be thrown in jail now if a woman gets pursued too aggressively!!just saying..

  9. 9

    I think it’s always easier to blame the nebulous “them” than engage in any real self-analysis or improvement. Based on my experience and that of others I’ve talked to, dating is largely a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you think the Seattle dating pool stinks(btw, I have a few single girlfriends there who have similar complaints about the men), then you’re going to be looking for reasons to bolster your assumptions. If you think that there are a lot of great people out there, but you might have to date a few dozen before you find one that’s right for you, you’ll probably have an enjoyable dating experience.

    And in the end, all the complaints about the opposite sex are fruitless: you are completely powerless to change even one other person, let alone an entire population. You can however, make some adjustments to yourself that can make all the difference in your level of success.  

    1. 9.1

      Thank you for this comment. This is perfect.

    2. 9.2

      And in response it is also easy to say you are the common factor in all of this.  Look, Evan has something to sell here.

  10. 10

    Funny how advice is always more palatable when it’s flipped to someone else’s perspective.

    On a separate note, Evan, you should check out the A&E 2004 production of Agatha Christie’s “Death on the Nile”.  I just watched it yesterday and actor JJ Feild is a dead ringer for you!

    1. 10.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      @KDC – Just looked him up. He’s got big ears and curly hair, but otherwise I’m not seeing it.

      Still, it’s better than being told I look like Jerry Seinfeld or Ben Stiller, which is what you get for being Jewish in Hollywood, I suppose… :)

  11. 11

    Evan, you’re hilarious. 😀  I had suspected that you made up the city, but didn’t want to say anything. Seattle just got a gratuitous bashing today. (Sheesh, I always thought the people there were nice…)
    I think the first step in James’ case is to lose the anger and resentment. If you’re angry or resentful, that comes across so clearly when interacting with others, and it is so unattractive, even in business settings. It’s not effective telling someone he needs to stop being angry, though. This is something a person has to want to work on, on his own, through whatever means he can (meditation, counseling, practicing a more positive outlook, etc.).

  12. 12
    Saint Stephen

    I see guys who complain about not getting into relationship as those who deliberately or unintentionally limited their pool to a demographic confinement. Sometimes to achieve true state of happiness someone is bound to think outside the box- and be more open minded. Nothing guarantees that your sweet heart must be around you. your Cinderella could be in another country waiting for you (her prince charming) to come rescue her. Thank goodness we have international dating sites. Women from other countries are more realistic and will value James or other men more than those women in their demography. Is actually true that women wont change their unrealistic behavior, but you can import a woman with a realistic behavior.
    Personally i see nothing wrong with James. The problem is that nowadays women in the US need sufficient chemistry as a requisite to consider if there would be a second date.    

    1. 12.1

      “The problem is that nowadays women in the US need sufficient chemistry as a requisite to consider if there would be a second date.”



      Nope. the problem is that women are now independent enough to require EXACTLY the same thing men have always demanded of us, that there be physical attraction. That’s typically what we mean by “Chemistry.” We do also generally hope that a man will not be a misogynistic head case, will have something to add to the conversation and be polite. Honestly, there isn’t really that much difference between what men and women want out of a true “relationship.” We all want someone we find attractive, someone who we have fun with, who makes us feel special, most of us want someone who is committed to the relationship and gives as much as they take.



      We only have problems when our expectations of what kind of mate we want conflict with what kind of mate we can achieve. There are tons of people of both genders out there searching for love. The real issue for those who are stuck forever in the dating pool is that they are all looking at each other and deeming everyone they see not “good” enough.

      1. 12.1.2
        Cara Randall

        BAM! That’s an awesome reply! Love it!



      2. 12.1.3

        As Bill Burr says everyone is chasing the same handful of people.

      3. 12.1.4

        Al said: “that there be physical attraction.

        While I do agree, I think that many women’s attraction meter is in the clouds just like many men are.
        Just as many men think they deserve to have a movie star 10, so do many women.
        The popularity of movies like Magic Mike only push this unrealistic fantasy for women (almost no men look like that), just like all of the supermodel and actress stuff of the past pushed it for men.

        However, I see far far more men saying they will date the “girl next door” type, but I’ve never heard any woman say the same.  Unless the “boy next door” looks like the buff hot plumber boy-toy they show on commercials.

        Since most people rate themselves higher than what they actually are, they will tend to go after people who are often “out of their league”.

        Most women should take off all of their makeup, and send their photo into one of the “rate me” websites to get a more unbiased opinion of their looks.  They might get a surprise and a reality check.

        Note: I’m a very fit 53, I rate myself around a 5, I typically go after women in the 4 to 6 range, only to be always told “I’m not attracted to you”.  I can only think it’s got to be my red hair.  😉

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          DeeGee – you have a big blind spot. You’ve bought into the idea that it’s Magic Mike or bust concept, when all you have to do is look around at the millions of non Magic Mike guys with wives to disprove it. This is your pain. This is your anxiety. This is your insecurity. But it’s not based in reality. Are some women impossibly shallow? Yes, but I think men take the prize with that one. Lots of older, heavier, men can still land a more attractive woman because they put a greater premium on beauty. So while you have somewhat valid complaints, this ain’t one of them. The main reason you’re not getting any action isn’t “women”; it’s you. That’s hard to take, but it’s the truth. And it’s no different than what you’d tell a woman who was blaming “men” for all of her dating woes.

        2. DeeGee

          Evan said: “That’s hard to take, but it’s the truth.

          After many failed attempts over the years, I do believe that it is me.  I am working on it.

          and said: “And it’s no different than what you’d tell a woman who was blaming “men” for all of her dating woes.

          I thought I had written my response as more gender-equal.
          I guess not.

        3. SparklingEmerald

          DG- Not trying to minimize your frustration, but I just had to laugh when I read your comment that you think  “it’s got to be my red hair ”

          I used to be a redhead (not naturally) and I debated about weather or not to go back to being a brunette.  I actually wondered if my red hair which I got tons of compliments on BTW (from men and women) was at all responsible for dating frustrations.

          Then KE posted this HILARIOUS tongue in cheek video where men were giving dating advice based on a graph that showed how crazy women were on one side, and how hot on the other, and giving advice to men based on where women fell on the Crazy/Hot graph.  The narrator pointed to the spot on the graph (I think the score was 7 hot, and about 5 crazy) and said, “Now this category consists of strippers and red-heads”, and that’s when I decided “THAT’S IT !  This red hair has GOT to go”.  Since I didn’t want to be lumped in the same category as a pole dancer, I went back to being a brunette.  (OK, I was already very close to that decision, but THAT sealed the deal for me)

          Anyway, the first date I went on as a brunette led to the wonderful relationship that I am now in.  That was nine months ago.  And the guy I am in love with ? He has red hair ! (strawberry blonde and gray mix)

          Anyway, it’s pretty common for men to color their hair now, so why not give a different hair color a try ?  I don’t know if you are flaming red or more strawberry blonde like my guy, or more brown hair with a hint of red, but perhaps you should consider changing your color a bit.  Maybe if it’s flaming red, just have it toned down a bit.  Consult with an expert to get a color that will look natural on you, and go well with your skin tone.

          From your self description, I  think you should be able to find a woman who is attracted to you, and you have been married before, so you have done it before at least once.

          Did you say you are in your early 50’s ?  It is hard for EVERYONE after 50.  It takes longer to couple up as we get older.

          I was beginning to think I must be a big hopeless loser in the game of love (but not in any other area of my life) but maybe my problem was that I was just impatient.

          It was almost a year to the day after my divorce became final that I met my boyfriend, I was separated for about 3 1/2 years prior, so it was about 4 years total between relationships.  The first year I just holed up at home and had no interest in a relationship, so let’s say 3 years of actively dating (on & off)  for a relationship.  I thought that was way too long, and I was getting extremely impatient with the process.  But many of my friends tell me they are happy I found someone wonderful and they also say that it didn’t take me that long.  One of my co-workers said “Geez, you didn’t waste much time, did you ? ”  I just said “Huh, it took me 3 years” and she just replied “Pfffffft, that’s nothing, my Mom was alone for 12 years, before she met her boyfriend”  Other people tell me their stories of trying to find love later in life, and they all say it takes time.

          So anyway, from your descriptions, I do think you can find your match, but I can understand your frustration. It might not happen as soon as you would like it to, but it’s not hopeless. (It just feels that way)

          But even tho it would have been great if I met my honey sooner, he was worth the wait.  I would rather be with this guy after a 3 year stretch of fruitless dating, than to have settled for the first guy who came along only to end up in a terrible relationship.

          As much as I LOVE being part of a (happy) couple, I would rather be alone than in a bad relationship.

          Anyway, if you really think your red hair may be a factor, it won’t hurt to try a slightly different look.

          Wishing you well in your search for love.

        4. DeeGee

          SparklingEmerald said: “I just had to laugh when I read your comment

          I have read multiple times that red hair color for men is the least attractive to the majority of women.
          I was popular while CSI:Miami was on.  :)
          I guess we need more redhead men in mainstream media.

          and said: “so why not give a different hair color a try

          Red hair for men is supposed to be the most difficult to dye.
          The problem is that my beard, facial hair, and everywhere else will is also red.

          and said: “It takes longer to couple up as we get older.

          My last short-term relationship was 10 years ago.
          No luck ever since then.
          It seems I am always either too fast or too slow.
          Either I like them more than they like me, or they like me more than I like them.
          Either I say something too quick (like asking for a second date too soon (wha??)), or I’m too slow (like waiting one day too long (wha??)).
          At 53 and at least one to two years away from being able to move to a larger city, which will make me at least 55 and close to 15 years single, I have once again thrown in the towel after almost a year of giving it a really good try again.

        5. Karmic Equation

          “Either I like them more than they like me, or they like me more than I like them.”

          DeeGee, have you considered spending more time with the women who like you more than you like them, to see if your attraction/liking for them would grow with time?

          If no, why not? And therein lies your answer to why it won’t work for women whom you like but who don’t give YOU a chance.

          I like you, so I hate saying this to you, whereas I’ve had no issues telling the “entitled” guys this:

          Your SMV (aka “rating” if you will) is reflective of the rating of women who will date you (this applies to men. For women it’s not based on the rating of the men who will have sex with her, but on the rating of the men who are willing to offer her relationships).

          So if you’re finding that 4-6’s won’t date you, then perhaps you’re not the 5 you think you are. You need to aim at 3s. If they won’t date you, then aim at the 2s. Then aim that 1s.

          Or alternatively, try to like and love the ones that dig you already.

          Best of luck to you.

          Just as looks get women in the door, but it’s their personality that keeps a man tethered; it’s really the same thing for women, no matter how vociferously women deny it. You have to be “attractive enough” to her to get in the door with her.

          I don’t like men who resemble Bill Gates…and when I said this, Goldie took me to task because SHE finds Bill Gates attractive and would certainly date men who looked like him.

          Just as one guy’s 10 is another guy’s 5, it can be that way for men as well.

          Don’t lose hope. But don’t obsess about it either. I’ve found that most of my relationships have started when I was focused on just being happy by myself, not when I was actively looking for someone.

        6. DeeGee

          KE, I appreciate your comments and your concern.

          Karmic Equation said: “have you considered spending more time with the women who like you more than you like them

          There has only been a very small number of women from the dating site that are reasonably local (within 250 km).  See further below.
          Of those, only a few have replied to me (~60%) and slightly less have agreed to meet.
          I have driven 300+ km just to see one of them (7 hours of my time round trip — for a coffee).  So far we have only become friends (the distance is a bit of an issue).

          I have considered what you said, and I have asked the women I wasn’t really interested in for future get togethers, but they seem to be as frustrated with it as I am.  It’s not like I haven’t given it a real go.
          One of them (god I hope she doesn’t read this blog) is 6+ inches taller than me and size-wise makes up two of me, I like her but I can’t see it working (I feel like an 8 year old hugging his mommie).  I’m sorry, really I am.

          and said: “I like you

          Thanks.  Likewise.  :)

          and said: “Your SMV is reflective of the rating of women who will date you

          I have no issue at all dating a woman who might be classified by some as a 3.  The issue still is finding them here.

          I would have no problem sending you a link to my OKC profile, for your personal rating, but I would only do it privately and not open here (through your blog?).  :)

          My problem is the very limited number of local women on the dating site.  There are only 3 within 100km, and 10 within 250km.
          The other women who are interested are just too far away at over 500+ km.  Most of the women I messaged who were 500+ km said they would definitely get together if I was local to them.

          and said: “Don’t lose hope.

          I am a victim of my location.  This city population is only about 15,000.
          Either I have to move to a much larger center, which won’t happen for 1-2 years, or there has to be a miracle of running into some available woman outside of the dating site.
          Unfortunately,  I won’t be holding my breath.  :)
          So it’s back to work and my daily routine.

        7. Karmic Equation

          “I am a victim of my location.  This city population is only about 15,000.”

          Yeah, you need to move :) Bummer.

          I would have no problem sending you a link to my OKC profile, for your personal rating, but I would only do it privately and not open here (through your blog?)

          Yes, I have a blog, but I don’t think I’ve blogged on that for over a year. I was in a blogging mood when I created it. Search for Karmic Equation 101 blog. But I don’t feel right about logging in to OKC now that I’m in a committed relationship. Who knows which friends of mine and my bf might see that and get the wrong idea!

          Use the email link in the blog to ping me and maybe you can send a couple of OKC screen captures when I reply to your email.

          I’ll give you a fair, and honest critique…if you can handle the truth 😉

        8. DeeGee

          Karmic Equation said: “Use the … blog to ping me


          and said: “you can send a couple of OKC screen captures when I reply to your email.

          Sent to your same email address in a second email, if it gets through.  If not, I’ll wait for your reply email.

          and said: “I’ll give you a fair, and honest critique…if you can handle the truth

          I can take it.  :)
          As I mentioned to Evan above, it’s probably me…
          How many guys are willing to drive 7 hours for a coffee date though… maybe that just seems too desperate.  :)

  13. 13

    Smash, you are the same as the guy Evan is referring to in this thread. You are “mirroring” so what you project is what is coming back to you !

    Change your thoughts and you will change your world.

  14. 14

    @9  Evan … too funny!! And so telling :)

  15. 15

    I love it!  A ton of battle-of-the-sexes content gets generated about the dating scene in Seattle and EMK reveals the OP wasn’t talking about Seattle, Evan just changed the name to protect the identity of the person writing the letter.
    I agree, it adds even more power to EMK’s point.   As far as dating goes people are too caught up in whining rather than doing what they *can* to deal with a less than spectacular reality to find solutions.

  16. 16

    @ St Stephen:
    “Women from other countries are more realistic and will value James or other men more than those women in their demography.”
    As a woman from another country, I’ve got a word of advice to you… if and when you ever talk to them, keep this thought to yourself. You’ll be glad you did.
    I had this phone conversation with a guy where all of a sudden he said: “I love Easter European women!” (red flag already, who chooses women based on ethnicity?) “They’re so appreciative of things they didn’t have growing up, that American women take for granted.”
    I instantly had that vision in my head of myself thanking him for things American women take for granted… “Wow honey, is that a hamburger? How cool! I never had that growing up! OMG, and french fries too??? I’m sooo lucky to have you” smooch smooch. Eh… no. Next. No one wants to be seen as a poor, third-world girl that can be bought with a handful of buttons and a glass necklace… just sayin.

  17. 17

    If you do what you have always done – without making any changes – you will get the results you ALWAYS get!  I agree that you/we cannot make any changes in others – or in the environment – or the world.  We can ONLY change ourselves. 
    Or we can change our way of looking at things.  Many prominent psychologists have stated in different language that “it is not the event that disturbs you/us but our perception of the event.”

  18. 18

    Goldie #18, if I really wanted to sweet talk such a woman, I’d show her the pickle. Maybe then she would be relishing me dipping my fries into her ketchup. Ha.
    Seriously, I would feel objectified too if someone were to say how much they love Italian guys or guys of a certain height or build or whatever. Is she into me for me, or am I just interchangeable with anyone else available who meets that criteria?
    Overall, very good thread. If a woman wants to be successful with men, she needs to get how we work (including the ways that don’t make sense to her) and use it. Men are probably not going to change, except maybe those of us who are on this blog. Similarly, if we men want to be successful with women, we need to get how you work, including the ways that don’t make sense to us, and use it. (And this is coming from a guy who has railed about how women “don’t make sense”.) Women are probably not going to change, except maybe those of you on this blog…

  19. 19

    Too true @Goldie…
    I’m American but it slays me that American men have convinced themselves that there are all of these starving, poor, desperate women in other countries who will forgive all of their faults.

    So you have plane fulls of paunchy, balding postal workers who think that young hot Russian(or other non-American women) women want nothing more than to marry them, b/c they aren’t “superficial” like American women.

    I saw a part-hilarious/part-sad documentary on the mail-order bride business, set up by a guy who did scoop up some young woman desperate to find a better life for herself and her child(the body language between him and his much younger, more attractive wife said it all).  So he now takes these middle-aged, less than average Joes to Russia to these “matchmaking” parties.  The men walk into a room full of women young enough to be their daughters, marveling at how they were all there to see and marry them.  The interviewer speaks to the girls in Russian during and after the party and they were wondering why the men were so old and were disappointed that there were not any young, good-looking men in attendance.  Some were on the verge of tears.

    So there is a fantasy created by men and sold to other men that doesn’t match anyone’s reality.  They do in fact believe that they can buy a poor, third-world girl by just showing up with a handful of buttons.  Even if you believe that story, it’s really gross that you’d want to exploit it…some of those girls were cringing when those men tried to touch, hug, and kiss them.  Why would you want to be married to someone who finds you repulsive? Just b/c she’s younger and “hotter” than what you can pull here?

    1. 19.1

      I just finished a 5 year relationship with a man who is now on a large number of the websites portraying himself as 13 years younger than he really is. He says he loves to go to places he never took me, even though I asked to go to these places. On one site he even says he loves to hold hands. I often had to be insistent because he was so uncomfortable with this. He is 74 years old and I am the first person he EVER held hands with!!
      From what I have learned by trying out internet dating, it is not uncommon for men to falsify their true selves in order to get a date. My brother even did this by claiming things that were absolutely not true.
      We women are expected to not only figure out how to weed these cunningly false people out but to have “game”??
      Personally, I;m too tired for this.
      I keep myself in good shape physically because I like the attention it gets me. But after watching all the game playing the internet and the POF attitude it has added to the dating scene, I have NO desire to date.
      GOOD LUCK to those who do……….

      1. 19.1.1

        jane said: “We women are expected to not only figure out how to weed these cunningly false people out but to have “game”??

        We men have to do the same with online dating with women.
        I have seen many women’s profiles only to find out that they have posted much younger photos, false information, and shopping lists of what they want in a man.

    2. 19.2

      Well, Ms. Nicole, you really fit the bill for an “American woman” with your comments.Since YOU and your local sisters do not want these guys, then do not date them and do not go near them ( you are SO far ABOVE them anyway). The more than 12,000 such marriages between American “misfits” and foreign brides will go on to the tune of a much lower divorce rate.Even if she is “cringing”, as you put it, she still hugs and kisses him because he is HER husband.

      1. 19.2.1

        I hardly think that Nicole is being unreasonable or saying that anyone is beneath her by decrying the rampant dishonesty some people online are guilty of.  Way to take what she said, totally distort it and use it (incorrectly) to support some wacked out concept you have of American Women. You’ll no doubt always find something to support your world view because it doesn’t require any basis in reality.

      2. 19.2.2

        The statement -‘Even if she is “cringing”, as you put it, she still hugs and kisses him because he is HER husband.’-says volumes about you. Seems that you’re saying that you’d be fine with a woman’s discomfort and obvious desperation to overcome that to survive. Perhaps that you might possibly feel that that’s what women are. That it’s maybe fine and natural for someone desperate for a ‘better life’ should debase themselves. Seems that you think of these women as lucky to have a savior. Maybe someone like yourself. Seems to show how you see women in general. Tools for the comfort of men, regardless of their true feelings. Could be that you don’t see women as people at all. Maybe you would prefer a ‘female’ that would see you as some sort of god. It must be considered though, the cringing and then ‘kissing-hugging’  might show more of a mind of making do with the least objectionable option, rather than any sort of love or respect. Seems that a mind that would desire this sort of arrangement might possibly be uneasy, maybe terrified by a woman with more power, over herself,  or self esteem or options. Seems its been hard for you with women here in America with more access to education and basic human rights, harder to find a mate in this atmosphere. One wonders if you’ve ever considered that perhaps woman are people too. One could suggest that you might try to put yourself in the position of these women who could be basically selling themselves into marriage to escape a worse situation. Maybe think about how you’d feel some strange man were the only option for you. Perhaps you’d understand that to get over the disgust of touching and kissing a person that you’ve never met or had any knowledge of, someone who you have no idea of how they’ll treat you, whether they’ll ever care about you or your feelings, getting over your feelings of whether or not you’re attracted to them,  would be your best chance to survive.


    3. 19.3

      Nicole, there is a lot of truth to what you said.  There are men who have no clue, who think a foreign brides is their answer.  Some are unrealistic, and think they are going to get a super model wife when they themselves are truly nasty.


      You also highlight a truth, that busts a myth.  The girls show up to those parties, and are not desperate to marry just any man who comes calling.  They quality women, who are selective, and know what they want.  Despite the myth that most are just looking for a green card, or looking to be rescued from poverty, and so will marry any man who comes calling, the reality is actually very different.


      However, there is another side to this.  There are men who can find a women of a quality they can’t find here.  Here is a bit of an extreme example that was in WeTV.  The point is that as you watch it, you will likely think that there is nothing special about the man.  In fact, as my boyfriend noted, he would likely be called creepy by women 10 to 20 years older than he now wife, who don’t even look as good as her.  So you really can’t blame him for finding what he wanted, even if he had to leave the country to find it.  I know couples similar to this, some with similar age gaps, and some where the age gap is minimal.  One thing in common however, is that the women tend to be more beautiful than the women the men had dated here, and these women have a different idea of what good man is.  They aren’t usually impressed with the hot bad boy types, and go more for the nice guy types that women here seem to find boring.  They simply value different things.  Honesty, kindness, patience, character, stability, etc… all inspire passion in these women, much more so than youth, good looks, money, bad boy image, etc…  They seem to be less impressed with false bravado that many women here seem to view as confidence, or swagger.  I asked one of them why this was the case, and she simply said that those kind of men tend to be bad husbands, more often.


      I knew about this video because a friend showed to me and my boyfriend and asked us what he thought.  He recently turned 50, and said he feels a lot of discrimination over his age.  Mind you he said he is not interested in a woman so young, but does prefer women a little younger than himself, up to about a dozen or so years younger.  He is also in great shape, and decent looking…better looking than the guy in this video, so he feels confident he can find a good woman this way.

      He also had a video that showed a man marrying a woman from there, who was much closer to the guy’s age, and she had one child.  He thinks he has a better chance at happiness by being pragmatic.


      Anyway, you are right that it would not be good to be married to a person who thinks you are disgusting, but at the same time, there are men who are finding wives that do not see him as disgusting, where as the American women of similar quality, did, such as the man in this video.  So wouldn’t you agree that it is a smart move for men like him to find what they want someplace else if they are being rejected by what they want here?  To me it only makes sense.  To me, a guy like the one in the video, is the guy who doesn’t give up, who doesn’t worry about a locked door in front of him.  He simply does the smart thing and moves to another door to see if it is unlocked.


      Most men that my boyfriend and I know, who are doing things like this, are not looking for somebody so young, just younger.  But I know two who are in situations similar to this.  One is married to a Brazilian girl half his age.  He’s 52.  Did she do it to escape Brazil?  No, she was already a citizen, having moved here by herself, going to college, and getting her citizenship in the process.  She has many men her age still trying to flirt with her.  She’s not interested.


      Another is a guy we go to church with.  He actually met a younger woman on a facebook group dedicated to discussions on our religion.  She was actually a little rude to him at first, because he had told her friend that she was wrong about something.  She was standing up for her friend.  But he engaged her in rational discussion, and pretty soon, she sent him a friend request.  Not long after, she started flirting, and recently made it plain to him that she was receptive to him.  She’s half his age, and all for it.  He’s the one that has serious misgivings over the age, and I think he is unlikely to follow through as a result.  I talked to her, and she is serious about him, and has her reasons.  None of which involve a green card, or money, because he actually can’t give her a better life than she has there, because her family is actually fairly well off.  She’s a recent college graduate, working as a nurse, and also a classical violinist, having started when she was very young.


      So I guess what I am saying is that, as always, there are two sides to every coin.  You are 100% right that there are some seriously delusional men, who are just nasty, but there are also good men who are being rejected here, who find they are not rejected by quality women from other countries.


      I should note that I am Asian.  Am constantly told I look younger than I am.  Get hit on by men of all ages.  And many might think that I am a foreign bride when they first see me and my boyfriend.  Some with preconceived notions are shocked to learn that I have been a citizen for most of my life, and that I am very well educated.  They assume I should be a with a man who is much better looking, and wonder what the deal is.  The deal is that I don’t like bad boys, and I care less about looks than the man on the inside.  So I don’t cringe when I look at my boyfriend.  He’s not ugly, but I know many women see him as average, and would turn their nose up to him.  Their loss.

    4. 19.4

      Hey Nicole, I agree that is some disgusting business; when I worked for the fed, I had a supervisor who did this; went to the Philippines, I believe, to find some young thang…ughhh… So he comes back from his vacation two weeks later with a 17yr old wife. I suppose the fact that we were law enforcement didn’t translate to morale efficacy in his personal life, friggin rached.

  20. 20
    Saint Stephen

    @Goldie (#18)
    Lol :) …. thanks for the advice- that was very funny. At least Now i know i shouldn’t have to broach it up in a conversation. 

  21. 21
    Saint Stephen

    @Nicole (#21)
    James is not an old man. He’s a young guy with bright prospects. And who says he should go for a starving girl from a third world country? Russia is a developed country. Europe and Asia are also fast developing continents. In such countries you can still find educated women with prestigious careers. The only difference is that such women don’t need much chemistry to consider a relationship and they don’t have a long requirement list that a man needs to score very good in ticking all off. 

    1. 21.1

      What you are really saying is that, by going overseas, you think you can find a woman who meets your heightened expectation of attractiveness but who will ignore the fact that you do not meet that same requirement yourself.

      1. 21.1.1

        Or maybe what he is really saying is that he is just outside the top 20%, and he has an easier time finding a woman who is his equal who doesn’t feel she is settling because she didn’t get one of the top 20%, especially when she is also not in the top 20%?  Did you forget the OKCupid statistics where women placed 80% of the men in the below average category?

  22. 22

    @Saint Stephen, nowhere in my comment did I mention the original poster, and considering that you aren’t from this culture,  and don’t understand a lot of things nearly as well as you think, so I’m going to leave things there and not try to argue with someone who understands nothing about where I’m coming from.

    Perhaps work on making sure you’ve properly understood what you are reading before commenting.  I know that it’s not always easy to capture the essence of what people are saying when you are doing it in a second language.

    I’ve been to Russia(and India too for that matter).  It’s not third world but it’s not “first world” either, for a variety of reasons that are really off topic for this thread.

  23. 23

    St Stephen

    Apparently you haven’t heard of Russian bride scams, where men are duped into sending money to poor Russian women, on the pretense that they want to travel to America to meet them, or need the money to pay for their internet connection, or for an ailing relative, etc. Sometimes the women are looking for a green card, and dump the guy after they get it. The women involved are not educated, nor do they have prestigious careers. I’ve heard a number of men on Match.com complain about being contacted this way.

    If a 30 year old with half-way decent looks and a decent job is meeting only women who are “terrible”. something is wrong with his judgement. He’s not screening properly, he’s not choosing women who really like him, or he is turning the women he meets off in some way. 

  24. 24

    @Saint Stephen (#23)
    But why should anyone force themselves to keep dating someone they’re not physically attracted to and have little chemistry with? Is it in hopes that it will come later? Why not just be friends instead then? And hey, if an attraction manages to form later down the road, then that’s great. Why force it, or act like actually being into the other person and feeling like you vibe well with them doesn’t matter for a relationship. Wouldn’t it make you feel bad knowing the woman you’re in a relationship with isn’t feeling you? 
    Also, would you be in a relationship a women you didn’t really have much chemistry with?

  25. 25

    I’m an Eastern European-American woman who gets hit on all the time by guys with Slavic fetishists – who are often deeply disappointed to find out that I’m American and not looking to be anybody’s fast track bride.

    @ St Stephen – Frankly, they don’t care about chemistry and that long compatability checklist because they care about your wallet and your American citizenship. If you like that better than being judged by your biceps or your ability to make conversation, fine, but don’t pretend it’s somehow superior to American women’s standards. 

  26. 26

    @ Ruby #25, yes, this happened to a friend of mine who had this obsession with Russian bride sites. I kept telling him that “Veronica”, that was emailing him, was probably some dude running a scam business out of his apartment, but he wouldn’t listen. Then one day, Veronica writes to him saying that she wants to come visit, and her aunt, who lives in the US, is paying for her plane tickets. There is only one problem – because Veronica’s aunt is not an American citizen, she is not allowed to wire money to Russia. So, Veronica continues, can you send me $3000 and my aunt or I will pay you back as soon as I get here?
    I told my friend that it took me six years to get my citizenship, and that, during those six years, I was able to send money to whomever I pleased, including my friends and relatives in Russia. He was so shocked and angry, he actually sent Veronica an email saying that he’s on to her/him/it. Hey, I’d tried to warn him all along…

  27. 27

    Goldie #28

    I’m sure “Veronica” seemed really nice, and was very pretty too. Good thing you were able to warn him!

  28. 28

    There are a number of reasons why “James” does not get a reply from womyn on-line. First, has he actually read their profiles and compared what he wants to what they want? This is a biggie; we get lots of contacts from guys that are in no way compatable with ourselves re. core values, family desires, type of relationship they want, our interests, etc. this is why so many of us get frustrated and give up. the dating sites also try and “match” you up w/ folks far, far from what you are looking for and often those that are 1000+ miles away (look at a map dudes). I am surprized by how many contacts I get from smokers, overweight guys (I am an ultrarunner), the politically conservative, guys into ski resort culture and/or motorsports, and those “recruiting” for a mommy for their kids from the last marriage. We get so many of these completely inappropriate “matches” that there is no way one can reply to them all (I get about a dozen to two dozen a day). Among other things, my profiles are very clear re. smoking, downhill ski culture, motorsports (I had a guy contact me from my mountain town that I had actually kicked off of my land because he was tearing it up w/ a !@## motorbike) that I am an environmentalist and Socialist and proud of it, I am waay too old to do the family thing, I am a very active person that believes that folks need to take responsibility for their health. “James” needs to read the profiles first.

    1. 28.1

      can you define overweight? Because it is not the same as in women. That is because men usually have higher bone density and more muscle mass. Also the toracic cavity is usually much bigger. The “athletic” man of today in my opinion is a skinny sickly person. A man can seem overweight and also be able to run great distances or do a lot of effort demanding work. Also please define ultrarunner (never heard the word before).

  29. 29
    Saint Stephen

    @Nicole (#24)
    I know you never made mention of OP. I responded to your post because it related to my earlier set of comment.
    You said i misunderstood your comment (which i did not), secondly you quickly alluded English been a second language as the cause. I’ll only remind you that virtually every commentator (including Evan) in this blog have been accused of misreading/misunderstanding peoples comments.
    And by the way, you ought to know that i didn’t need to come from a culture to understand much about it. The world over (including those who had never been here) knows much about the American culture- given it’s stand in the World. Lol

    @Ruby (#25)
    What you said is true. but anyone who is serious and have what they call brains will definitely know how to weed out the Scammers from the serious minded ones. Though i never had Russia in mind (since they aren’t an English speaking country. And far from what you said many third world countries women aren’t starving or green card crazy the way folks like making them appear. I’ve traveled around, and what i see when i travel to Asian countries is the reverse case of American and European men migrating to settle with their Asian Wives. Women stepping up in education and work isn’t an American thing, is a global phenomenon. Infact a woman is currently the prime minister of Thailand, Denmark and if you go places in Africa you see women becoming Vice presidents, governors and senators. Truth is, most women in third world counties are more comfortable than you folks think they are. They might even be more comfortable than many American women… oh i digress.

  30. 30
    Saint Stephen

    It seems that whenever he goes out with women, they’re all so SHALLOW.

    They never want to TAKE THE TIME to get to know him as a human being.                                                                                              
    They’re all looking for magical CHEMISTRY and trying to figure out within 5 minutes whether he’s their SOULMATE.
    Talking about relationships, We all know that women are responsible for 90% of first date which doesn’t translate to another.  Is definitely odd if a woman is struggling to get into a relationship, not for a man. A guy who does everything right but couldn’t produce enough chemistry may likely not even get a second date. Average men struggle very hard in having relationship, the way strong successful women do. From the way I see it, a woman who complains about relationship must have dismissed many men. Which of course means there are plenty of single average men like James.   There is nothing wrong with an average guy like James who is finding it difficult to have a relationship. Rather it would be odd if he was a strong successful guy but still having the same problem.

    1. 30.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      I think it’s strange, Saint Stephen, that you’re taking the time to defend James, when James is a perfect example of what NOT to be like.

      1. 30.1.1

        If you look at how similar their POVs appear, based on their writings here … I for one don’t think it’s strange at all.

        JMHO, of course.

      2. 30.1.2

        I feel as though the reason certain people are defending ‘James’ is that some can read the article and see James being told ‘being yourself isn’t good, change yourself for shallow people who don’t like who you are’ and then followed by a couple paragraphs explaining why James and people like James are aweful.

        That will cause people, weather or not they can see themselves in James, to defend him, because you verbally beat him, and people (strike that, men) like him.

        Most people know someone like James, a friend, a neighbor, a cousin, etc.

      3. 30.1.3

        Hi Evan,

        You’re really missing a HUGE point with James. Most women I’ve met are exactly as James described and I live an hour from him. You of all people know women don’t gravitate towards guys like James. The only attention I ever get from places like Match or Plenty of fish are overweight women whom I would never date, and even those are rare in between. What you should be doing is telling women to stop looking for that perfect handsome rich dude because chances are they will never find him. You should be telling women that they need to lower some of their standards because this day and age has created a huge group of women who all think they deserve the handsome young multi-millionaire. While they will never tell you this, you know by their action that is what they are seeking.

        If you really want to help people connect, help both parties realize that there is no such thing as a perfect connection, and that real love takes hard work. Finding someone to do this with should not be as hard as it is, and it’s definitely not the males who put up the roadblock. I’m not saying woman have to settle for the fat disgusting slobs who have no jobs, but the cute mechanic, or the handsome rail yard worker are perfectly acceptable matches.

        1. anAmericanWoman

          Hmmmmm … I’ve dated fat men, skinny men, latino men, black men, white men, retired men, well to do men, poor men, young men …. I’ve dated around to figure out this stuff.  I’ve had four marriage proposals in 5 years.   I give respect, I give time, I pay my share – dutch always, I am considerate, I am loyal/faithful (I will only date one man at a time and in that time I will evaluate if the relationship has potential), I’m honest, I’m on time, I listen, I listen, I listen and I watch actions to see if what comes out of the man’s mouth match his words … If I can’t trust your words then I can’t trust you (your actions show you core values and if they match your words), without trust and honesty there is nothing.  We are the least honest with ourself and that can translate into a lot of hot air seeping from our face.

          What I have learned is this …. we all really are not what we profess and think our self to be.  If you truly want to know how you are performing … Ask the question, am I  turning people away?  Other people are the mirror, look to how they are responding to YOU.  It is pretty simple.

          I have walked away from four marriage proposals. I am just an average 52 year old woman that stays fit.   Am I shallow?  NO … as a woman I am myself, I am not your trophy nor your pleasure toy.  If you don’t attempt to understand me and my wants and my desires, if you only understand your wants and your desires (as in selfish people)… it will never work as I will stand my ground and work against you in an attempt to get my wants and needs satisfied  … it maybe fun in the beginning when the passion is high and the sparks are flying but it will grow cold and old fast.  So … that is my yard stick … does he get me, does he care for more than himself, does he see all of ME.  I have worked a lifetime to understand and respect men.  I have read books after books after books and the conclusion is pretty much this … if he is selfish, if he only gets himself … it isn’t going to work and it doesn’t take very long to figure this out, sometimes it is as quick as one date … run, run, run as fast as you can from such a person whether it be a woman or a man.

          I work at getting men.  I work at getting the man I am dating.  He is not my cash cow, nor a trophy, nor my free ride.  I work at understanding what makes him tick and his core values and if he is truly honest with himself (if he isn’t he has no work to do and it is as good as it is going to get … we all have work to do … we all have actions and attitudes that need refining).  And, I will not settle for less than what I have to offer … thus four marriage proposals that I have walked away from.   Your mirror is how other people are responding to you, if you are like me and most people, you have some work to do.  Some people have a lot of work to do.


      4. 30.1.4

        Evan look around the net, see what men are saying about women nowadays. This observation isn’t just from 2 guys in the Seattle area. It’s across the country.

      5. 30.1.5

        I think its strange that you dont realize that most men ARE like James. They are not feminist like you.

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          No, the men YOU know are like James. The men I know are comfortable around women, secure around women, and love women. That’s why they’re happily married instead of part of a “movement” of angry guys who feel emasculated by society. If you are a nice guy with balls, you’re going to do very well with women. If you are a nice guy with no balls, you go around complaining that women don’t appreciate you, and take your balls back by venting on the internet. Try being a better man instead of blaming women for your lack of success. By the way, that’s EXACTLY what I tell women who complain about men.

        2. kpak76

          Lol again with the assumptions. You make it hard to take anything you say seriously. Feminism taught you well i see.

          Statistics say that your “happily married” friend will have a 60% divorce rate (and the main reason that number isn’t higher is because our grandparents generation are still around. You know the last generation to actually believe family is important. From those divorces 80% of them are initiated by the woman. 90% wilk end up wirh the men losing custosy of their kids. And about that same percentage where men will end up losing half their stufg AND have to pay child support. Do the reseach, google makes it easy now.

          Again, i lost my anger when i realized i should have ZERO expectations from women. And whi is ro blame that there are so few men out there with balls? Feminist, how many times have you seen masculinity shamed by feminazis? Its all over the world now. Do you want me to get in a debate with you on what this is doing to the world?

        3. Evan Marc Katz

          Kpak – leave the facts to me.

          You only WANT to think that 60% of marriages end in divorce because YOU are so bad at relationships. In fact, the divorce rate is DECLINING.


          Now, of course, marriage is declining too because guys like you opt out of the system, which is fine for any relationship oriented woman who wants a man who treats her well.

          But please don’t throw around false figures to make a specious argument. In fact, if you’re over 30 and college educated, your marriage has an 80% chance of survival.

          You can go on and on about divorce statistics, but that misses the point.

          People who read this blog want to learn to make smarter relationship choices. The goal isn’t to get married. The goal is to be happily married. And if that’s not your goal, I have no idea why you’d be reading this blog.

          And while “feminazis” (while not a term I’d ever use, because, you know, the whole Jewish thing?) are not my cup of tea, FEMINIST is a good word in that it advocates for true equality. And as a libertarian (am I right), you believe in equal right for everybody. So you should have no trouble with equal opportunity for women. You’re just standing up for masculinity. Okay. I’m standing up, too. But what does that entail? The right to rape? The right to insult women who are overweight? The right to fuck and not be courteous afterwards? The right to spend two years with someone when you have no intention of getting married but you know that what she wants? Being a man doesn’t give you the right to do whatever you want, no more than being a woman gives her the right to do whatever she wants. I’m all about fairness and civility. But MGOTWs and “feminazis” can keep on blaming each other without looking in the mirror – and then, when called on it, deny it outright. “I don’t hate women!” “I don’t hate men!” Look at your posts. You’re a misogynist parading as a realist. Leave realism to me and go back to your forum where you can rant about women to guys who believe the worst – and will never have the best.

        4. kpak76

          How can I leave the facts to you when you’re not posting accurate facts? The truth is no one knows if the divorce rate is declining. There is evidence on both arguments, some say its declining, even more say its rising.


          Now it seems the baby boomers are at the fun. And no I am not throwing out false figures. That’s great and all for people who attend school, but what about those who don’t? They have under a 50% chance survival rate for marriage. Should we just forget those people out there exist? I date people in both those ranges, college educated women and non college educated women. Why should I discriminate based on education?

          The people who reads your blog seem to be people who are already prone to agree with what you are saying. You’re catering to a select group of people who probably believe heavily in feminist ideals. There is another group of people out there called conservatives who will look at some of the ideas your throwing out and disagree. You are right about some stuff, but I couldn’t disagree more with you on others.

          Feminazi is an actual word in Merrian-Websters dictionary. If the Jewish people are offended by that word, I would tell them to grow a thicker skin. It has nothing to do with them anways.

          Feminism is no longer about equality, it’s about domination of the matriarchy and death to the patriarchy. The feminist movement you speak of was the first wave. Today meninism is what feminism was in the 30’s and 40’s. They are actually about equal rights among the sexes. They are preaching for fair divorce proceedings. They are fighting to retract some of the ignorant rape laws we have in this country. It’s destructive to peoples lives when you tag them with sex offender labels because they urinate in public. The act is wrong, but not worthy of destroying someones life over it. No one should believe that 1 in 4 college women will get sexually assaulted because that is just not true. If it were, I can’t see how any sane and reasonable adult would ever send their daughters to college.

          Women received the equality they were seeking once they got the national right to vote and with the pass of the equal rights amendment. The cries now from feminist camps is nothing more than lies and warped use of statistics to get a country to kill off all signs of manhood in this country. You see it everywhere. In popular culture, at your workplace, at school. It’s sickening that we drug up little boys today because they show male traits. Every job I’ve had I had to tip toe around the workplace so I wouldn’t offend someone. On TV or in the popular art, you don’t see any semblance of a strong father figure. Where are todays Ward Cleavers, and Mike Bradys? They are replaced with guys like Kevin James, and Homer Simpson, bumbling idiots. If you don’t think feminism has nothing to do with this, you are sadly blinded by the myth they are selling.

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