Most Women Don’t Dream of Dating Nice Guys

Most Women Don't Dream of Dating Nice Guys

I love infographics, even when they’re based on silly, not-peer-reviewed, not-statistically significant, research, especially if they prove something illuminating.

That’s why I’m sharing this infographic from a site called Dating Metrics. I’m not sure what they’re selling, so don’t worry about it. Just pay attention to the part about women preferring bad boys to nice guys. It’s amusing and a good leaping-off point for a discussion.

In short, this guy looked at lists written by women about the 53 “sexiest TV characters” and realized that:

40% of women’s “fantasy TV boyfriends” are cold blooded murderers!
21% are vampires…
And only 14% are nice guys!

Now, it seems to me that this was a question that had a very predictable answer. Because the question wasn’t about “what kind of man would you like to marry?” In fact, the question was about the “sexiest TV characters” and “fantasy TV boyfriends”. When you frame it like that, whoever says that her fantasy is to marry Jason in accounting, who is kind, stable, consistent, communicative and relationship-oriented?

It seems patently obvious that damaged, rebellious, mysterious and brooding are pretty much the OPPOSITE traits that one would look for in a life partner.

As a result, this infographic is amusing, but much ado about nothing.

To me, the real question is why we glorify the traits associated with the bad boy: damaged, romantic, manly, rebellious, mysterious, smart, brooding.

It seems patently obvious that damaged, rebellious, mysterious and brooding are pretty much the OPPOSITE traits that one would look for in a life partner, yet women still undeniably find them attractive and sexy.

I am not even friendly with anyone who is damaged, rebellious, mysterious or brooding, so I’m not the most objective judge, so let me ask you: what is it about these exciting inscrutable bad boys that continues to have a pull on you? Is being with someone “nice” really all that bad or boring? And do you know of any dark, damaged bad boys who have turned into happy, healthy, stand-up husbands?

Your thoughts, below, are appreciated.

Join our conversation (315 Comments).
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Comments:

  1. 61
    Cornflake Girl

    I’ve been analyzing this as I’ve been dating. My feeling has become that it’s on the ability to create excitement and chemistry through confidence. In the same way men are attracted to overt femininity, bad boys are the extreme and the risk taking and unpredictability gets your endorphins going. I also think many females growing up, such as myself, we’re not raised by nice guys and didn’t have that built into them as a model for attraction. My dad was a classic narcissist so I have to fight with myself to avoid being drawn to that.

    For really nice guys I have met I feel they could get a lot out of minor tweaks to behavior. One nice guy I dated, for example, had a really weak handshake and I could tell he lacked confidence. Changing that would probably change a lot of girls’ impression of him. Another simply didn’t know how to flirt and admitted it and I would have basically had to take the “male” role in the relationship.

    So in many ways as you tell the women on here to act less alpha, the difference I’ve noticed between these two types is often the ability to take the man’s role act with confidence. You can still be a nice guy and this makes a lot of difference in how I perceive you.

    1. 61.1
      Adam

      Cornflake Girl,

      You make some excellent points. That is why I always say that men who have trouble with women need to stop being themselves and change who they are in order to attract women. Men need to look at what narcissists, bad boys and players are doing to attract women and simply emulate it. Don’t be angry about it. Just accept it and copy it. Men spend far too much time complaining about women and then men they choose instead of simply becoming these men.

      We know that women for the most part, aren’t attracted to the nice, respectful gentleman who buys her flowers on the first date like in Disney movies. Ok, fine, guys, stop complaining about this. Stop sitting around mopping about this. Look at the guy she sleeps with on the first date, the guy she lusts after, the guy she chases, copy him. Who is this guy? How does he treat her? What does he say to her? We need to look at these things and copy them.

      1. 61.1.1
        Cornflake Girl

        I think you’re taking it too far, and can’t sense if it’s sarcasm intended to drive a point home…that’s hard to read in type. Also, you’re really reading things into my points that aren’t even stated.

        Essentially, what I am saying is, much like if I am an alpha female I am asked to lose some of that energy at home in order to have more success with men, women are attracted to alphas…so don’t be a doormat, don’t be a cold fish, work on your confidence. If you want to equate all confidence to narcissism, by all means go ahead, but you’re swinging too far the other way…everyone wants someone who is confident in them self…doesn’t mean it needs to go so far as to be a personality disorder. There’s a huge difference.

        My mentioning the narc component, many women were not given a good role model and unless they have self awareness will repeat patterns. I’ve worked hard to overcome mine consciously.That is more of a comment on the WHY behind this attraction, not that it’s a good thing. Most women attracted to bad boys are insecurely attached and looking to repeat old patterns.

      2. 61.1.2
        SparklingEmerald

        Adam – I am from a different generation than you, so maybe my experience doesn’t count, but I am happily in a relationship now. My honey is neither a “nice guy” or a “bad boy”, he’s a GOOD MAN ! I couldn’t tell you if he is an “alpha” or a “beta” or what his so called “SMV” is or where he rates on a scale of 1-10 with the general populace. All I see when I look at him is the man that I love ! And that is all I need.

        All this modern day relationship lingo and catch phrases are meaningless now. Superficialities as far as height, income, social status, perfect good looks etc., have NEVER meant much to me. All I wanted was someone who I was attracted to, compatible with, who is reasonably financially stable (not wealthy or filthy rich) and who TREATS ME WELL. And he finally found me, and it’s better than I could have imagined it would be at my age.

        I understand how you feel. For the 3 years after my divorce, I couldn’t understand why a nice, fairly cute but not drop dead gorgeous woman, who just wanted to be loved by a good man couldn’t find one. Even factoring in my age, 3 years seemed like an excessive amount of time to be looking for a relationship and not finding one. I’m not overly picky, I definitely am not a gold digger, I don’t play games, I don’t nag and criticize my relationship partner. I honestly thought about morphing into some bitchy, games playing “rules” girl, but that’s just not who I am. What’s the point of putting on a fake personality to win someone’s heart, if you are going to have to keep up the fake personality for the duration of the relationship ?

        My sense Adam, is that you are a good man and that there is a woman who will love you for who you really are, that is, if she sees you for who you really are.

        BTW, I am not that unique, maybe it’s the crowd I run with, (and the generation I am from) but none of my lady friends go for the bad boys either. I’ll admit, many of the marriages are sagging and floundering with age (marriage of 25 years plus), but it’s not due to marrying a “bad boy”. And my single lady friends, nope, they don’t go for the bad boys either.

        My heart goes out to you Adam, and I would be delighted to come back to this blog someday and see that you found someone who loves YOU, for who you REALLY are.

        1. Nick

          There are so few women like you though.

      3. 61.1.3
        isayimnothere

        Totally right, the moment I stopped, being  “nice” and started copying everything these charming guys did everything turned around. On average women love a man who doesn’t care about them very much, which I find stupid. I’d give my left leg for a girl who treated me half as well as I would have treated a girl before I figured out what they were attracted to. Its so strange. Cest’ la vie.

    2. 61.2
      Nick

      Its not quality men like him nor their behavior, its you. What if his handshake was weak because he spent hours at the gym? Its women like you who have low self-esteem and good men who have high self-esteem.

  2. 62
    Anonymous

    It’s actually worse……if women date bad boys and become decent men in the process, women leave them. Women, in general, view nice guys as material to devour…..not material to behold and appreciate. If you become a nice guy, you will become a doormat for her whims. These women don’t keep repeating the same sayings over and over again for no reason….”well behaved women rarely make history”

    1. 62.1
      Buck25

      Anonymous, as to your comment above,  that’s possibly true, but ONLY if by ” becoming a nice guy”, you REALLY mean cutting off your nuts, handing them to her on a platter, along with your boundaries, and your spine,  tape your mouth shut so you can’t say “No”, and while you’re at it, paint a bullseye on your butt with a sign that says, “Kick me please!” That might do it.

      Otherwise, Bullshit!

    2. 62.2
      Katie

      “Women, in general, view nice guys as material to devour……not material to behold and appreciate.”

      Not me. I make penis shrines in the kitchen and hook sacrificial doughnuts on it every morning in humble worship.

  3. 63
    jennifer goines

    Why do so many (young, attractive) women go for the bad boys? First of all, I suspect it’s important to distinguish that the women being referred to, are the ones putting themselves out there to gain validation of their attractiveness through their sexual encounters with men who are desired by other women, due to their own low self-esteem. So, a large element of this comprises of gaining peer envy for who they are seen to be with.

    Men with high sexual market value display characteristics that demonstrate that they don’t need to settle down, are adored by many, and can take care of themselves. I don’t think the ideal TV boyfriend really is the ‘cold blooded murderer’ – but let’s take Norman Reedus as an example for the sake of it. Somehow, even though he has played a redneck in Walking Dead, the female fans love him. But then, we are in the age of the internet. Undoubtedly many people will know that in real life he was a model, and even has children with one of the world’s most beautiful supermodels, ever. Of course women looking for external validation would be drawn to him. But even if you were to consider just the fictional character he played – the guy always bounces back from every challenge, he made people around him ‘earn’ his time of day, and then he became the kind of person who would die for you (shown through action, and not excessive word exchange, so it never seemed he wanted or needed something back from the people he came to care for.) It’s the perfect persona of a boyfriend for someone who wants to take strength from another person, but who might themselves feel they have little in substance to offer in return.

    A ‘bad boy’ is seen as a man that is not easy to tie down – so there is an element of sexual conquest and the feeling of gratification that comes from ‘winning’ and ‘scoring’, when the low self-esteem woman manages to bag one of them. Women are also brought up with confusing ideas of being the ‘nurturer’ and that love somehow should be ‘unconditional’. It’s very easy for emotionally immature women to fall into the trap of being with a physically desirable male that has some problems or issues, especially if it’s a man who doesn’t really want people to help – not only does this satisfy the ego-boosting need of bagging a physically desirable male (and thus ‘out-competing’ other attractive women), but it also satisfies their messiah complex of having the opportunity to try to ‘fix’ someone to make them whole, whilst also being able to stop trying to help if it’s not working (since they didn’t ask for any help in the first place anyway).

    Many women with low self-esteem have difficulty accepting and respecting a man who clearly expends a lot of energy into thinking about her needs. Because they hold themselves in low regard, they start to question what is wrong with this man who places so much value and importance on her, and may (subconsciously) question his social status and his level of attractiveness to other women. A low self-esteem woman is fearful of a man becoming emotionally dependent on them, in case they are proved inadequate in providing the happiness which the male thinks he can get from her in return.

    It’s worth noting that a lot of insecure women put a lot of effort into making themselves extra physically attractive, to over compensate for the lack they feel inside. That is not to say that emotionally secure women are unattractive. Many of them might have already formed a stable relationship not based on the chasing of endorphines characteristic of a push-pull relationship. But many men are just as guilty of wanting the kind of sex that largely comes from that kind of unhealthy relationship, so I’m going to call hypocrite on this.

    Remember, women are people too. The men who over-focus on women who keep going for the bad boys, are probably guilty of over-looking the women who are more secure in themselves, and appreciate a stable man who respects her.

     

    1. 63.1
      Karmic Equation

      Great post, Jennifer.

      This makes a lot sense.

  4. 64
    meg

    I’m pretty much only interested in Agent Coulson from Agents of SHIELD soooo yeah.  Never have been interested in bad boy characters I suppose.

  5. 65
    Amanda

    I like nice guys but I don’t like doormats who bend over backwards for me and seem like they don’t have a life. Men get being nice confused. Most women want to be with a kind/nice man, but a confident, driven, fun nice guy. Not a nice guy who texts you every single day when they first meet you and never disagrees with you or never puts his foot down and stands up to us. Well maybe that last part is just me.

    1. 65.1
      bobby

      It is true, guys like me or doormats or being nice.  Were used to it, but sometimes I rather be a doormat.  Than a brooding good looking guy.  Because, no matter how many hot girls they date or the girls next door.  They will always be alone.  Those mysterious guys have no idea, what it is like to be an outsider, being left out, treated like dirt and being take advantage of.  Mostly those guys are the ones I respect.

    2. 65.2
      Buck25

      Actually Amanda, It’s not just you. Just as guys often don’t respect women who don’t have firm, consistent personal boundaries, most women don’t respect men who don’t have their own boundaries. That shows you, I would think, many of the same things you having your boundaries shows us-that you’re secure, confident in yourself, and have a healthy self-esteem. For those guys reading who don’t get Amanda’s discomfort with “doormats”, think of how you feel about a woman who lets herself be one. Do you like the feeling of stepping on her, or walking all over her, or feeling like you’re tiptoeing over eggshells trying not to? If you hate that feeling (and if you don’t, you have a really big problem), welcome to the world of decent human beings. Now  remember that women  (90% off them anyway), are also decent human beings, and usually even more sensitive to hurting someone that way than you are, and you’ll  understand . Of course, they’ll test your boundaries; seriously guys, are you going to tell me we never push at a a woman’s,  just to see if they’re still there? Of course we do! I’ve done it plenty, and you have too; so why be upset at them for doing it to us? I’ve never yet met a sane woman, who didn’t understand and respect one simple word. That word is “NO”. They use it, they understand it, and while they may not always like it, they respect it. There are a lot of different personality styles you can get away with in attracting and keeping women but there are at least three things you have to have to have a chance: BALLS, BOUNDARIES and a BACKBONE! Sometimes, you can mix in a little brains, bluster and bravado, too, in varying degrees, might help, might not; but be missing one of those first three “BIG B’s” ? A woman will spot that in nothing flat, and it’s GAME OVER, period. Simple as that. Before any of you guys start resenting that, tell me, exactly who is it that controls whether you actually have those three “BIG B’s” or not? That’s right, the only person who controls that, is YOU! Not women, YOU! Shakespeare was right, “…the fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, but in ourselves…”

  6. 66
    Vanessa

    You know how guys say crazy girls are more fun in bed? Yeah, same with crazy guys. 😉

  7. 67
    Adreana

    Well, “nice guys” aren’t always nice, Evan. If you look at the news, many of the crazy mass shooters were described as nice guys.  The word nice has been tainted so much that we need to come up with a new one.

    I disagree that women aren’t drawn to nice guys, it’s just that they’re drawn to REAL nice guys that have additional qualities that make them attractive. Look at it this way, would a man want a woman just because she is nice? I don’t think so.  Heck, I can’t even even be friends with people who are just nice- I need to enjoy their company and have a blast with them.

  8. 68
    Ben

    Then again with the kind of women we have out there these days is the real good reason why many of us good men are still single today which certainly explains it.

    1. 68.1
      Al

      Yep. With that attitude, it’s isn’t any wonder at all why you’re still single mate. SMH

  9. 69
    bobby

    Why do you think, parents lock their daughters in their rooms for.  Take like guys like Colin Farrell, he was the guy, girls want to bang. He was a chain smoker, drinks a lot and is good looking.  He also treats women badily, he usually gets laid a lot of times with a lot of hot girls. Trust me, on tv our dreams girls nerds keep chasing always put us in the friend zone or reject us.  In the real world, always be prepared.  If you are a fat guy or a nerd or a nice guy, when you see a pretty girl.  Don’t look at her or talk to her.  Don’t even ask them out and or say anything.  They can smell desperation all over you.  That is talk, you will be rejected.  Mostly you can be friends, they will put you in the friend zone.  That is how the world works.  So only nerds should date ugly girls, they say yes to anybody.

  10. 70
    bobby

    One perk about being a nerd, slacker or a geek.  Is I can be myself.  I can wear my own clothes, I can say anything I want and I can be childish, funny and myself.  I can eat anything I want, without a hot girl tell me what I have to eat.  We have it easy, no matters how many times were left out or get beat up or laughed at.  We have the easy life and we can be ourselves.  Brooding, good looking guys may be mysterious and a bad boy type may get the girls we can’t date.  But they have a lot of expectations, they don’t want to live with.  Mostly if they are dating you or this image they fantasize about.

  11. 71
    Adreana

    Women like bad boys and men like crazy women. I have a few “nice guy” friends who have horror stories of psychotic, drama-filled women…they didn’t wake up and decide to pursue nice girls till after they’ve gotten older and got tired of it all.  And how many women started giving “nice guys” a chance till AFTER they’ve been dumped by a bad boy?

    I know it sounds harsh, but nice men and women are very rarely the first choice ( even if they are good-looking). If there are other attractive people who are more wild and unpredictable, you can bet they will be perceived as more desirable than the hot “safe” ones.

    The lesson is….no matter how nice you ( think) you are, you need to have a bit of a crazy, fun side to you! 🙂 Only then will you beat the bad boys/girls at their own game 😉

     

  12. 72
    Lisa

    Sometimes I think you have to date your fantasy (in my case several times) and get hurt before you realize that the fantasy is not the reality and go for a nice guy.   Many people particuarly women are drawn to that crazy love with conflict and drama and people longing for each other. I blame Hallmark movies for this.  So we seek that out.  A nice guy is “boring” to us.    He is not a challenge there is no angst, he is just like here I am I love you.     Another issue is that women that have dated these types of men for a long time come to think that this is what love is and how it should feel.  So when they meet a nice guy and there is no angst no drama they say well there is no chemistry here.    But they have mistaken angst for chemistry it is not, so they have warped views.  I have a good friend who is 38.  She has never been in a serious relationship.    When I asked her who she is looking for she tells me Edward from Twilight.  I said to her, he is a child, her response to me was well he is supposed to look young in the movies. I said no in real  life the actor is too young for you you are almost 40 years old!   This same friend dismisses every single guy she goes out with becasue well he does not look like Edward!

  13. 73
    B

    I personally like the fact that I get the “bad boy” who doesn’t care about anything, to care about me. I actually have this issue in real life. I’m in love w someone who I decided to step away from because he was a “bad boy” and I wanted something more stable. Someone I knew would be there. Someone not so selfish. Etc.

  14. 74
    Jessica

    Hi Evan!

    Sometimes, it’s all about sex for women too. Maybe these “bad boys” have higher testosterone levels and subconsciously make us think they would be better at impregnanting us and pass on stronger genes… I know that sounds crazy because why would we want to reproduce with a guy who is going to be a bad husband and not even stick around for child rearing? But I suspect it all goes back to our evolution and the chimpanzee social structure, where families were raised in groups and there was more help from the “community” in raising children. Just my two cents! Love your stuff Evan, my husband and I agree with most everything you say. And I your book “why he disappeared” really helped me in my single days.

  15. 75
    SEH

    I would like to start off my statement with the “nice guy” label was given to me by women the compliment they always bestowed upon me while they were rejecting me. Many of the nice guys I know got the same rejection line over and over (you are a nice guy but…) so we start to believe we are nice. It was never a self proclaimed title that entitled me to anything. I also accept it is my own responsibility to be what a woman would desire, complaining about other men is a waste of time.

    The anger nice guys feel is we tend to be a woman’s back up plan after she has conveniently “outgrown” her bad boy phase or she has accumulated unpleasant baggage directly related to her bad boy phase. Women seem to  feel entitled to “nice guys” only after they are damaged mentally, physically and financially by the men they chose.  It appears to us you are offering your problems in exchange for intimacy and a relationship. Nice guys pay for their faults with the constant initial rejection we receive then we have to pay a double price for the damage you have accumulated. If we complain or call it like we see it then suddenly we are no longer “nice”.

    It has been my experience at this point women will go into damage control mode. They will lie about their pasts and come up with all kinds of witty one liners to make their “nice guy” feel special….

    #1 I saved the best for last.

    #2 What I had with them was sex but when I am with you its love. ( So you had great sex that makes our love making pale in comparison)

    #3 I had to be with them to appreciate you. ( No you chose to spend your time with them,  they were for fun and I get the privilege of working and sacrificing for you.)

    #4 The time I spent with them was horrible (How long did it take you to figure that out? A week or did it take decades?)

    #5 You are getting the best of me. ( If I was number 1,2,3 or even 4 I could believe that but not when I am number 23)

    #6 I was finding myself (What exactly does that mean?)

    #7 Its complicated (No its not! If you wanted to be with me or a guy like me you would have.)

    #8 I want to put my past behind me you are my future. ( You mean you don’t want to be held accountable for your actions and live your life without consequences)

    # 9 No one understands me like you do (I believe you told more than one man that line).

    #10 I had to kiss a lot of frogs to find you my prince ( Princess you banged the Black Knight, Evil Wizard, Court Jester, Rogue Bandit, Pirate and the Ogre before you would even consider me as an option)

    Ladies its damned hard to buy your witty one liners when they have never been supported by your actions. It becomes impossible to hear your words if you are in dire straits. Now I expect to be attacked for what I have said so please spare me any fault finding or shaming attacks. I am not misogynist nor do I need therapy.  However you might be able to inflict emotional pain but then it would just prove what I have known most of my life, your contempt for me is absolute! Spare me your mock concern it was never supported by action.

     

    1. 75.1
      Katie

      The pearl clutching here…

      Tell me why a woman would want a guy with that negative, judgemental and shaming attitude, please? You probably have a lot of great qualities, but you’ve done a masterful job of growing a moldy layer self-righteous, emotionally deflective judgyness over it all.

      Clean that off and try the dating scene again.

      1. 75.1.1
        SEH

        “Tell me why a woman would want a guy with that negative, judgemental and shaming attitude, please?”-Katie

        They reject me long before they ever see that side of me. If I like the woman she will never see that side of me.

        “You probably have a lot of great qualities”-Katie

        They always get me friend zoned. Whatever qualities I have don’t make up for my deficiencies.

        “you’ve done a masterful job of growing a moldy layer self-righteous, emotionally deflective judgyness over it all.”- Katie

        And when a woman judges a man she is wise, smart and divinely inspired?

        “Clean that off and try the dating scene again.”- Katie

        I would but with each passing year there are less and less desirable options and I refuse to settle.

        Reply

      2. 75.1.2
        Buck25

        Katie, Where do I start sorting out this mess? First of all SEH is mostly wrong in his assumptions about women. However, you have a couple of blind spots yourself, both in not understanding part of the “why” of his anger, AND the role women actually have played into the misconceptions that held him (and many others) back from being “all they could be”.

        First of all I’d guess he’s in the 30-40 age group, and if so partly a product of the times, along with his younger counterparts. Feminism did some good things (won’t argue that) but it also produced some unavoidable collateral damage, among them, more feminization of the educational system; if I’d been born 25 years later, they would have drugged me into submission, like so many others have been. A lot of healthy male behavior has been pathologized by a system that’s become increasingly aggression phobic, and rewards female type compliance over somewhat rowdy and inconvenient behavior that was not liked, but at least tolerated, in my day. Lawyers, administrators, and female teachers love this; more convenient to them, in this wussified society we have now. The second, and this is an entirely female created phenomenon, is that relic of the eighties and early nineties, known as the “sensitive new age man” . You ladies made those pathetic creatures, when some of you decided you’d like  something with male plumbing and female emotions. The thoroughly emasculated result (and what a mess it was!) is with us yet, because some of these unfortunate lapdogs (so feminine that I swear some of them could menstruate on command ) somehow managed to reproduce, and even “Parent” (if you could call it that). Some of their unfortunate male progeny are the socially awkward unassertive 20somethings who can’t get a date today. In fairness there’s a subset of feminist women who own this “girly man”abomination more than a few examples of whom you ladies have kicked in the teeth for the crime of being the logical result of some of your own less-than-well-thought-out desires. You might at least show a little empathy on that account.

        One more thing. Many of you seem unable to make a distinction between “sexually attractive male behavior”, and “desirable Husband/boyfriend behavior”. You don’t make it at all clear which you are talking about, and that confuses us men (frankly I get the impression it also confuses some of you, to the point that you don’t know what the hell you want from us, or when you want it). Sometimes you’re so nuanced you’re entirely too vague for our concrete minds. Where it applies, you ladies own that one too. Try looking at it from our point of view, you know, the one where the primary desideratum is sex, and relationship a distinct afterthought. As young guys, when we ask “what do you want”, we mean”what does it take to get you  into bed,” NOT “what does it take to get a relationship with you”. The latter is a separate question for LATER…does that help clarify the issue? Yes, we know your agenda is different, but ours isn’t, so try to work with us on that. Both the sex and  the eventual relationship will be better…really.

        P.S. While a lot of it is overdone, from the perspective of males who  were doing without either sex or a relationship, for years,  (I wasn’t, so this isn’t personal grievance), while you were having your fun with self discovery and sorting out the difference for yourselves between sexual attraction and boyfriend material, there is a grain of truth in what he says. By no means are women entirely to blame, but you’re not entirely absolved of any and all responsibility for this mess either. What the guys are responsible for is not thinking far enough to realize that PUA, while somewhat effective (and thus empowering for them) has its limitations (it’s an act, and hard to sustain). The failure lies in not seeing what the bad boy actually is, and how easy it is for a really intelligent man to not just imitate him (along with his vices) but to outdo him entirely. One thing the typical bad boy is NOT, is an alpha male, or even anything close to one. He is typically immature, undisciplined and totally irresponsible, lacking in ethical development, more an instigator than a real leader, and typically cracks under real adversity. At his lowest level, he’s a borderline thug, and his default response to being confronted, or worse, outdone, is physical violence, which frequently makes him a potential abuser; a lot of his apparent hyperconfidence is that of a bully, who’s never been called on it (think the rougher biker type, as an example of this lower type.) In short, bottom line, he’s little more than an attractive mutt, that superficially  looks like a wolf… until a real wolf is around. The only reason some women put up with him is that not enough other men give them a better alternative, which is actually pretty easy to do, with some attitude, and a little modest work. If that ever happened in quantity, most of the real jerk type bad boys would go the way of the dinosaurs.

        1. Katie

          Buck,

          That’s a lot of diatribe for my 6 lines.

          Your assertion that men are “feminized” today compared to the good ole days is falling on deaf ears here. I feel that men have the freedom today to be acknowledged and appreciated on account of traits OTHER than the stereotypical alpha male. You ridicule the “sensitive” guy, well you’re barking up the wrong tree buddy. I’m dating a sensitive guy and he’s the most confidently masculine man than I’ve ever had and I love him for being intuitive, thoughtful and sensitive.

          I assume you’re from the US like me, and I’ll just say that we are NOT that great as far a gender equality. Sweden for example far exceeds us: 400 days paid parental leave that MUST be divided between the man and woman, vastly different dating culture where going dutch is expected, women and men nearly equally represented in politics, alimony in the case of a divorce is nonexistent, etc.

          I acknowledge a little bias, due to my dude being Swedish, but basically your assumption that sensitive men are weak or whatever because they don’t fit your old school mental model of the cool, withdrawn alpha male is absurd and dated. Dated as in old btw.

        2. Karl R

          Buck25,

          I think you’re way off the mark.

          Women aren’t some monolithic group who all think or act the same way. They haven’t systematically molded a generation or two into … whatever you’re assuming SEH is like.

           

          It’s also not unreasonable to assume that some well-meaning female friends and relatives have fed men lousy dating advice. (My mother’s advice would only have worked if the entire world was comprised of people like Ward and June Cleaver.) But as far as I can tell, the major points you’re trying to make are entirely wrong.

          Blaming women is pointless. Especially if you’re going to try to string “cause and effect” together in such a random and haphazard way.

          Your rant sounds no more plausible than any rant by an angry woman who blames all of women’s dating problems on men. If you actually have a valid point, try communicating it in an entirely different way.

        3. ScottH

          Buck-  I’d love to hear your story about meeting your new GF.

        4. Buck25

          Katie and Karl,

          Lots of knee-jerk reaction to my post , I see. I’m not surprised. Some of what I say IS polarizing. It is meant to be. My objective here, as usual,  is to provoke thought, not toe the conventional line. This is, or should be, a discussion, not an echo chamber. This was no diatribe against women, or any “blaming” of  women in general, or even feminism in general, for all of men’s dating/mating woes.That said, I would stand on the argument that the rise of feminism (while in general a good thing ) has also done the sort of (mostly unintended) collateral damage one can expect in any other social revolution, or major cultural shift. I see no reason why anyone but a dedicated ideologue would have a problem admitting this; if there’s ever been a major human endeavor without flaws I haven’t seen one yet, and feminism is no exception. I’m not suggesting that collateral damage was done with malice aforethought, but it was done nonetheless, and the primary effect was at the margins. That is to say, in this case, the worst effects were on those men who were already somewhat socially marginalized. The shy and socially awkward were further marginalized; the stronger and more adaptable (socially speaking) were not, in this instance. That’s not blaming women, it’s simply acknowledging that the price of some of their gains, has been paid for (and as much by women as men, by the way) at the expense of having fewer really good men to choose from than might otherwise be the case. Don’t conflate “blame” with some modest “accountability”; there’s a huge difference. Also to this point, I’ve only addressed one side of this issue, and if you had waited for the next part, you’d have known that, having asked for a little empathy from women for these men (including the ones complaining the loudest here), I’m about to put the onus for the great bulk of their difficulties squarely where it belongs: on THEM, and to some extent on us men in general (because some of the things many of us have accepted as attempts to redress the problem have gone too far, and in less than ideal directions, and we’re getting into”two wrongs don’t make right territory” at times.

          And Katie, don’t confuse what I’m saying about “sensitive new age men” as an affront to masculinity (they are) as saying that a man cannot have strong alpha tendencies, and also be kind, compassionate, and even empathetic. A man can be all that, and ideally I would suggest he strive to be. What he shouldn’t be, is one who does it as a wuss, a lapdog, and a weakling who snivels and begs like a cowering whipped puppy, tail tucked between his legs to cover his missing a sack, for any woman’s approval. There’s nothing in that, for any woman (or man, for that matter) to admire and respect. I don’t really like the term “mangina”, in part because it’s been abused, overused and misused, in part because frankly, it insults the many women who actually have more “balls” (figuratively, in the sense of inner strength, confidence and courage) than some of these men. These “girly guys” are not “weak because they’re sensitive”, they’re weak because the supposed “sensitivity” is mostly a fraud; the act of a supplicant and a sycophant, not a man of confidence and conviction and strength. See the difference? Your guy is the latter; the “girly men” I speak of are the former.

          Before I get into offering up what I think is a modest solution to some of these issue, I want to make one personal comment to the two of you (and anyone else here). Yes, I’m aware you think my attitude is absurd, dated and old. To you it may be. Guess what? You know what has me smiling, improved my dating life exponentially, and has me right now in a relationship with a woman you’d never dream I could get? The day when, after my last dust-up here, I finally got totally fed up, said “Screw it!” and went right back to being who I used to be, before I listened to too much “advice” about what women want! You don’t like me? Ok, I’m totally fine with that; it’s not like I need your approval. You think I’m a knuckle-dragging dinosaur? Fine by me, but someone else might think otherwise (and some women do). If the women I want to attract, are attracted to and respect me,  (and these days, a lot more of them do), why should I care what anyone else thinks? That doesn’t mean being cruel or unkind, or tearing any woman down either. Turns out, my attitude repels most of the unwanted female attention I was getting (fine with me!) and attracts more of those I actually like myself. Funny thing too; now, I can actually get away with showing some compassion and empathy, albeit selectively, without anyone labeling me as one of those proverbial “nice guys”. Seems to work much better when it’s a surprise that old hard-nosed Buck  actually does have a heart.

        5. Buck25

          Hey Scott,  Lot of changes since we talked last fall. You’ll get some of the idea from my post above. Met and dated a number of woman since then. The latest, though, would never have happened, except for the short history of a relationship that failed (to paraphrase a title from a Mark Twain story) immediately before. Some mutual friends had introduced me to a really pretty woman, and this had blossomed into a real whirlwind romance, complete with  the “I’m in love with you!” and “Let’s move in together!” talk. Anything that fast is bound to be highly volatile; I knew she had some issues, and was still being a bit cautious…and a good thing too, because the day after Thanksgiving, she imploded, emotionally, and that, as they say, was that. Little did I know that right before, she’d  been looking for some temporary housekeeping help for me and had given my number to a friend of hers, who gave it to one of her girlfriends…and a week later, I got a phone call; she introduced herself, told me how she got the number, and said she would be interested in the housekeeping job temporarily, to make extra money for Christmas. I figured I’d at least let her look at the job and see if I thought she’d be ok.  She really didn’t sound like much over the phone, but she gave me some references, which checked out, so… I don’t know what I was expecting, but the woman who showed up turned out to be cute as a button, with a personality to match, and a little ball of energy who looked around the house, and seemed to know exactly what needed to be done, so I hired her temporarily. Of course, the first couple of times I had to show her where all the supplies were, and so on, so we had to talk a lot while she worked, and well, we just clicked, to the surprise of both of us. The next thing you know, we found ourselves missing each other, and wanting to spend more time together, talking on the phone, going to dinner together, etc. We’re taking it real slow, just enjoying each other’s company; there doesn’t seem to be any rush, for either of us. We’re at the “I love you, but I’m not sure I’m ready to be in love yet” stage; for now, what we are is something we’re both content with, (and for the more inquiring minds reading this, yes, we’re exclusive,  but no, we’re aren’t having sex, and in no particular hurry to, either). Definitely different, but we’ve both agreed to just let it be, and see where it takes us. Que Sera, Sera.

        6. ScottH

          Hey Buck- I’m happy for you.  Your story goes to show that you never know when it’s going to happen which is why we need to keep looking for that needle in the haystack of love.  Very similar to Evan’s recent email.

          Scott

    2. 75.2
      Jeremy

      SEH, I hear your complaints and feel the pain behind them.  I sincerely hope you have not gone to the manosphere for validation on these issues.  I am ashamed to say that I spent some time there because I thought it was the only place where people talked about issues like this….but although there are kernels of truth there, there is also so much hate and mis-information that men leave there more damaged than they entered.  I see the same kernels of truth mixed with mis-information in your comment.

       

      The kernel of truth in your comment (IMHO) is that women often give men the wrong idea of what they find attractive, and this can lead men (like yourself) to prioritize the wrong things.  When we hear women lamenting about why they can’t find a nice guy, we think that we can attract them by being nice.  What we don’t hear is what the women are not saying – because they don’t think they have to say – that they are looking for a man whom they find arousing to ALSO be nice, thereby making him marriage material instead of just sex material.

       

      Realize that there are certain qualities that women find arousing and other qualities that women find comforting.  They look for arousal qualities in men they have short-term sex with, and a mixture of arousal and comfort qualities in men they want to marry.  But (and hear me here, SEH), they only prize comfort qualities in men whom they already find attractive for other reasons.  If they don’t already find the guy somewhat attractive, they won’t care if he brings them flowers (and may actually get creeped out by his doing so).

       

      The women who told you that you were nice as they rejected you were not attracted to you – either your appearance or behavior turned them off.  If they had been attracted to you, your niceness would not have affected your attractiveness for short-term sex (if that is what you wanted), and would have made you more attractive for relationships.  In other words, your niceness is not what is hurting you.

       

      Bottom line – learn what women find attractive, and try to improve yourself in those ways.  The rejections you suffered had NOTHING to do with your being nice.  They had to do with other lacks that you had.  Although it is psychologically easier to blame our failings on others (ie. women), ultimately self-improvement will yield better results in the long-term.

       

       

      1. 75.2.1
        Marika

        Beautiful, Jeremy, thanks for sharing.

        I’m glad you outlined that so clearly. I’ve certainly been guilty of being unclear what I want with men, saying one thing then doing another (in hindsight). I think sometimes members of the opposite sex (both men & women) demonise the other gender, thinking they are bad and nasty and controlling, but I think in reality most people are just unsure & confused. We think we want something (like I was drawn to a more controlling man after being with a complete pushover), but when we get it, it’s not that great. So then we flip. The grass is always greener, ya know.

        But most of us aren’t doing this to hurt others, it’s more just our unconscious need to be loved & accepted & desired that drives this. Not to say we all don’t need to improve in this area, but understanding and patience is what’s required, not hatred, name calling & blasting other people in the comments section of blogs designed to promote understanding & tolerance…

        I think Evan is on the money, you can’t go wrong being a ‘nice guy with balls’. But then again, my friend is very happily married to a nice guy with no balls and my sister has a very controlling husband and is fine with that. The best way to attract women is to be kind & chivalrous but also decisive & to have boundaries (and your own life), but if that’s not you, and you’re more passive, you’ll still find women who will love and accept you.

        Anger, on the other hand, may make you feel temporarily powerful, but in the long run it’s a block both to self-love and healthy relationships.

      2. 75.2.2
        Henriette

        Wow, @Jeremy.  *applause*  What a thoughtful, articulate post!  I agree whole-heartedly that men should work on improving those qualities that most women find “arousing.”  I’d love to read a list of what you consider those traits and qualities to be, and see if the female posters here agree.

        I, for one, have never (no, even when I was at my youngest and hottest) been attracted to bad boys and  ~ occasionally ~ a fine character could spark attraction that didn’t initially exist.  I know, however, that many (most?) women are more binary than I; if they don’t find a guy sexy from the get-go, they never, ever will.  So, I suspect that women like me also confuse matters for some men, because they believe that being nice will make a woman attracted to them, whereas in fact it MIGHT only make SOME women attracted to them.

        1. GoWiththeFlow

          Hey Henriette,

          “I, for one, have never (no, even when I was at my youngest and hottest) been attracted to bad boys. . .”

          Whenever I read a comment like SEH’s (that Jeremy answered beautifully) from a guy who recently dove down the rabbit hole of the manosphere, I’m always struck by how the implication is that dating, especially when young, is all puppies and rainbows for women.  That young women are ALL dating “bad boys” while maliciously rejecting nice guys.

          Two truths:

          1) Many young women’s early experience of dating is one of mostly being ignored, and even friend-zoned, by boys who are busy pining away for or pursing the 9s and 10s.

          2)  Many if not a majority of woman never wind up involved with a bad boy.  Bad boys are what, 5, 10, 15% of the male population?  Because of point number 1, and just random chance, the closest a girl may get to a relationship with a bad boy is daydreaming about a TV character or movie actor, or possibly an unobtainable bad boy on campus.  And then of course, there are young women who have good heads on their shoulders who avoid bad boys from the get go.

          Something for people to keep in mind.

        2. Jeremy

          Thanks Henriette and Marika.  There’s a really good book on the subject called “Come as you are”, by Emily Nagarski, who is a PhD in sex research/education.  She discusses female sexuality and how women (and men) have sexual “On” switches and “Off” switches, and how in order for desire to be perceived on a conscious level, the On switches need to be on and the Off switches need to be off.

           

          The problem is that some women have sensitive On switches that turn on easily, while others have ones that are difficult to turn on.  Some women have Off switches that easily turn off, while others have ones that are more resistant.  On switches get turned on by arousing qualities, while Off switches get turned off by comfort qualities.

           

          I suspect that is why some women perceive of “niceness” as being a sexual turn-on…if their Off switches are difficult to deactivate, they will never be able to experience desire without comfort first.  It isn’t that the “niceness” is a turn-on, but rather that without the niceness the turn-ons can’t be perceived because the proverbial “brakes” are on.  These are, I think, the women who have never been attracted to bad boys and who find themselves more attracted to men over time as they show good character (ie. learn to turn off the Off switches so as to allow the On switches an opportunity to work).

           

          Other women, though, have the opposite problem – their On switches are difficult to activate, while their Off switches aren’t a problem.  They simply aren’t attracted to most men, and crave dopamine (drama, chemistry, etc) to feel aroused.  It isn’t that there is a monolithic thing that gives most women dopamine; rather it is whatever gives that particular woman dopamine that turns her on.  These women generally won’t care a fig for comfort qualities, and will chase chemistry, not realizing that it is ephemeral.

           

          Sorry for the long, esoteric post but I think the topic is relevant.  The manosphere is full of the message that men need to “up the alpha” – in other words, focus on things that activate most women’s On switches.  And frankly, that isn’t bad advice – hit the gym, read a book, get a job, gain confidence.  But if done without some consideration for comfort qualities, long-term relationships become impossible when life will, inevitably, activate some Off switch and the guy will find himself without the skill-set to deactivate it.

        3. Tom10

          @ Henriette #75.2.2
          “I agree whole-heartedly that men should work on improving those qualities that most women find “arousing.”  I’d love to read a list of what you consider those traits and qualities to be, and see if the female posters here agree”
           
          I know you addressed your comment to Jeremy but do you mind if I take a stab at what qualities guys can work on improving which women find “arousing”? (Therefore, I will omit all the arousing qualities which guys can’t improve, such as their height and intelligence).
           
          The basics
          – Simply being clean and groomed is a start!
          – Wearing smart clothes that fit and are reasonably stylish.
          – Being in reasonable shape. My experience has been that most women are quite accommodating and aren’t expecting chiseled hunks, however, some modicum of fitness/keeping in shape is important.
          – Decent hair-cut. Although guys are relatively limited in what they can do in some circumstances (such as baldness), simply having a decent hair-cut seems remarkably beyond the reaches of so many men!
          – Teeth. Most people find a nice white set of straight teeth attractive. And this is attainable for most people. I always wonder why people past a certain age can’t seem to achieve this?
           
          Ambition
          Women are aroused by guys with drive, who know what they want from this world and then go about achieving their goals. Laziness and moaning are huge turn-offs to women.
           
          Education
          Now I think attaining education credentials simply for the sake of it – as opposed to assist in his career – is slightly absurd, however, I think the majority of women with degrees are more comfortable (thus more aroused?) dating a guy with a degree. Therefore, a guy would improve his overall desirability to women by obtaining some education credentials.
           
          Character
          Empathy and kindness. This is what confuses guys like SEH; they observe women sleep with the guys who display no kindness and get confused. However, what they fail to realize is that those women are attracted to those guys in spite of his character, not because of it. Therefore, being kind is still an overall plus.
           
          So Henriette, how did I do? 😉

        4. Shaukat

          I agree whole-heartedly that men should work on improving those qualities that most women find ‘arousing.’

          Unfortunately, when it comes to this topic most of the mainstream self-improvement advice just exacerbates the problem, confuses frustrated men, and drives them further into the MRA rabbit hole where they end up stewing in their own misguided toxic beliefs about women. Such advice, which is even voiced at times by some here, is essentially: “Be happy and positive! Then you’ll find the one!”

          I’ve known plenty of happy and otherwise content and positive guys who were still involuntarily abstinent. I remember a couple years back Salon did a story on a 33 year old male virgin who was a stand up comic in New York. He was funny, happy, not at all resentful, and yet had resigned himself to a sexless life. Clearly, the lack of good game or a sense of humor were not his problem. I’m not trying to be mean, but you could identify his main problem from his photo.

          Women are really just the same as men in this area, driven primarily by ‘chemistry’ and physical attraction. A man having systemic problems should thus focus primarily on the basics outlined by Tom, but I’d be more specific:

          Getting your body fat down to between 8-12% while maintaining a healthy overall weight will alone do wonders. Facial features, especially the jaw line, will become far more defined, muscles will appear more defined and even larger, and you won’t have a gut. There will still be some genetic limits (skull size, bone structure) but since most of the population is obese or ‘skinny fat,’ such changes will alone lead to massive improvements in the dating sphere. Forget about education, ambition, etc. Icing on the cake for most women, unless you’re talking marriage, but a man has to pass the looks threshold first.

        5. GoWiththeFlow

          Shaukat & Tom,

          I agree with what you suggest and want to emphasize that a man doesn’t need to get hair plugs or plastic surgery.  Some basic preventive maintenance or a small to moderate amount of effort is usually all that’s required.

          Two big things:  Dental hygiene and skincare.  Bad breath, rotting or missing teeth, and a face full of blackheads are lady boner killers.  Brush your teeth and don’t skip yearly dental exams.  Chewing tobacco will kill your teeth faster than anything out there, so commit to kicking the habit if you do.  (And tobacco juice spitting is is gross anyway.)  OTC whitening strips work pretty well, so give them a try if you have stained teeth.  Wash your face twice a day and use an exfoliating moisturizer and sunscreen.  You can buy these inexpensively at any drug store.

          After that, clean clothes that fit well, and a good haircut will make a good impression.  Women have varying opinions on beards and facial hair, so do what feels right for you and what people tell you looks good on you.  Just keep it clean and groomed, and avoid the Duck Dynasty look.

          As far as items like ambition and education, you certainly don’t need to be something you’re not, so don’t start a Ph.D program if you’re really not into it just to get the degree.  But a man with a passion for something and goals in life is very sexy.  Whether it’s to have your own business, run a 5k, or successfully coach kids on how to play soccer, it makes you interesting and gives us something we can learn about you, and maybe we can learn from you as well.

        6. Emily, the original

          Jeremy,

          The manosphere is full of the message that men need to “up the alpha” – in other words, focus on things that activate most women’s On switches.  And frankly, that isn’t bad advice – hit the gym, read a book, get a job, gain confidence

          Hitting the gym can help, but it’s obviously not all about a man’s physical appearance. If you’ve been on Evan’s site for any time at all, you’ve probably read that he points out that men want from women what they can’t get from their friends: warmth, compassion, nurturing. It’s the same for women. Women want to get from men what they can’t get from their friends: strength, decisiveness, a sense they are being protected. By this definition, “nice” guys have too many feminine qualities — kindness, sensitivity, a willingness to please. Having a more masculine edge will, as you wrote, active a woman’s “on” switch so that she can then discover a man is kind and sensitive (to a point), but also manly enough to turn her on.

        7. Chance

          Hi Shaukat, no doubt looking better will always help, but I would direct you to Emily’s comment above because I believe she gets to the heart of the matter, and she’s doing young guys a favor that most 20s/30s women would never do because they want the man to just get it (i.e., if he needs masculinity to be explained to him, then he’s not the guy for them).  My experience has been that the security cues that a man signals – physically, mentally, and emotionally – in how he carries himself are what attract women.  Mind you, I’m not proclaiming to know what attracts women, but rather I’m simply explaining what has been my experience as it relates to what have observed in women.  I can go through a list of observable traits or manifestations of this positively masculine mindset if anyone cares to hear, which will undoubtedly stir the pot (very uncharacteristic of me).  However, here is one manifestation that you will find to be outrageous:

           

          I have discovered that when I’ve ripped a hearty fart within the presence of a woman that I just met (not even talking about within a dating context here), sans an ounce of shame or embarrassment, that they eventually became very attracted to me.  This utterly confounded me as a teenager, but I’ve come to believe that this serves as some sort of display of unconditional confidence (again, distinct security cue).  I have no doubt that most (all?) the women reading this will say that this is the most ridiculous and idiotic thing they’ve ever heard, but they cannot argue with my personal experience.

           

          Now, a few caveats:  first, while this needs to be within earshot, never do it so close to a woman that she can smell it as this will demonstrate that, you know, you aren’t a decent human being and all.  Second, you must express absolutely no shame or embarrassment, or the deal is off.  Finally, this only needs to be done once.  Obviously, a woman doesn’t want to be around a guy who farts all of the time.

        8. CJ

          OMG is chance even a real person, lol??? He locks his condom in a safe as if his disgusting jiz is gold and now he’s saying that women loves it when he rips a fart right in front of them…. This guy is the living end – how does he get through ANY barriers of women. Is he dating 12 year olds, drug addicts, homeless people?  WTF do any women see in this guy??  I hope he is as up front in person to women as he is here so they can make a much better assessment of the degree of his mental impairment and psychological weirdness.  My feeling is that he hides most of these thoughts from real people or he wouldn’t have any friends at all, let alone women who are unaware he’s locking his disgusting jiz up minutes after he’s used her…. Jesus, this is scary. Hopefully he can’t hide his real self IRL but my experience tells me that he does very well and that it reinforces his wacky crap thoughts… Crazy town…..Chance…..

        9. Emily, the original

          Chance,

          My experience has been that the security cues that a man signals – physically, mentally, and emotionally – in how he carries himself are what attract women. 

          Yes, security is important … but to a point. Jeremy’s two posts above explain it well. If all a man does is activate a woman’s security/comfort needs, he will put her into a sexual coma. Think of what she needs as two types of fire — one is utilitarian and used for cooking and heating (like a stove). That’s comfort. The other is the house on fire, like desire. If a man wants a relationship, he needs to fill both of these needs to some degree, depending on the woman in question. If he just wants sex, don’t worry about the security. Too much security, though, will get a man freindzoned.

        10. Chance

          Emily, I agree with you.  I think semantics might be getting in the way as I’m thinking of security in a broader scope than just what someone might think of in the context of a secure, dependable provider.  I think muscularity, wit, and masculine independence (commonly seen as “good gene” traits the are beneficial for sexual encounters) actually send off security cues as well.  Indeed, I believe a man can send signals that inspire feelings that are the opposite of comfort, but still are security cues.

        11. GoWiththeFlow

          Emily,

          “If he just wants sex, don’t worry about the security.”

          Completely disagree.  For many women to have sex with a man, they need to know that they can trust him when they are very vulnerable–naked and having sex with him.  They need the security of knowing he won’t disappear the next day and isn’t blabbing her secrets to his friends, coworkers, and anyone who will listen.

          Security is so much more than a feeling that a man can/would physically protect you.  It’s also knowing you are emotionally safe with him.

        12. Emily, the original

          GoWiththeFlow,

          Completely disagree.  For many women to have sex with a man, they need to know that they can trust him when they are very vulnerable–naked and having sex with him.  They need the security of knowing he won’t disappear the next day and isn’t blabbing her secrets to his friends, coworkers, and anyone who will listen.

          I am quoting Jeremy’s post, which summed it up brilliantly.

          Realize that there are certain qualities that women find arousing and other qualities that women find comforting.  They look for arousal qualities in men they have short-term sex with, and a mixture of arousal and comfort qualities in men they want to marry.

          A man should lead with arousal qualities if he wants casual sex and a mixture of comfort/arousal if he wants a relationship. That doesn’t mean he negates all comfort qualities completely, but I’d be willing to bet the arousal qualities are more important for a woman during, for example, a one-nighter, where she might not  care what happens the next day or if he blabs to his friends.

           

        13. jeremy

          @GWTF and Emily, I don’t mean to intrude on your discussion, but I think you are both correct but talking about different women.  I mentioned above the finding that some women have Off switches that are difficult to deactivate (“sticky brakes”) and need lots of comfort qualities before they allow themselves to be turned on.  Other women have ON switches that are difficult to activate (“sticky accelerators”) – they aren’t worried about comfort, but wish they could find a guy who has what it takes to get their engine running (so to speak).

           

          I used to think that men needed to strategize about how to turn a woman on – should he lead with comfort or arousal?  But I’ve come to realize that if a man’s personality is one of comfort (“Beta”, though I hate that term because it implies inferiority), he should lead with that and find a girl who likes it.  If his personality is arousal (“alpha”), he should lead with that and find a girl who likes it.  Trying to be something you’re not gets old after a while.  I discovered that years ago while dating a girl who loved novelty, night-clubs, and constant arousal stimulation.  Exhausting for an introverted  guy like me 🙂

        14. Emily, the original

          Jeremy,

          I used to think that men needed to strategize about how to turn a woman on – should he lead with comfort or arousal?  But I’ve come to realize that if a man’s personality is one of comfort (“Beta”, though I hate that term because it implies inferiority), he should lead with that and find a girl who likes it.  If his personality is arousal (“alpha”), he should lead with that and find a girl who likes it.  Trying to be something you’re not gets old after a while.

          Very true: find the women who dig you, but since the topic of this post was “women don’t dream of dating nice guys,” some of the points you made may help the men who are always getting friendzoned.

          And this myth about “bad boys” having some kind of erotic draw for women is overblown. How many of us really know any true bad boys? The guy who lives by his own rules and does what he wants. I know a lot of guys who go to work on time and pay their bills. Hey, you gotta eat!  🙂

        15. GoWiththeFlow

          Jeremy & Emily,

          My next book will be the one you mentioned “Come As You Are” since I think people respond to a variety of triggers and stimuli in varying ways.

          Evan has a popular post about a LW who has fund very few men attractive.  Maybe one guy a year or so.  I think that is really sad.  I would say that the majority of men I meat have something attractive about them;  a nice smile, engaging eyes, a sexy voice, broad shoulders, etc.  I find that that is like a seed from which an all encompassing attraction can grow.  And besides, it’s just fun to be able to enjoy the beauty around you 😉

          I think I need a threshold level of attraction, that seed that can grow, and a lot of men can cross that bar.  Fewer men get past the next level that includes personality, disposition, and character.  A thing I have experienced quite a few times is that I find a man physically attractive and then he starts talking and I’m over it.

           

        16. Emily, the original

          GoWiththeFlow,

           I would say that the majority of men I meet have something attractive about them;  a nice smile, engaging eyes, a sexy voice, broad shoulders, etc. 

          A majority? Hmmm … I would say that once I have a conversation with most men (or people, for that matter), I can usually find something in them that is interesting or appealing. I can find a man’s personality engaging. I may even think he’s kind of cute, but that doesn’t mean I want to go to bed with him.

           A thing I have experienced quite a few times is that I find a man physically attractive and then he starts talking and I’m over it.

          Agreed. If he’s a moron, the attraction dies a quick death.

      3. 75.2.3
        SEH

        “SEH, I hear your complaints and feel the pain behind them.  I sincerely hope you have not gone to the manosphere for validation on these issues. “- Jeremy

        It is unfortunate that I actually paid it a visit along with sites like Heartiste and the Rational Male. The hate can be easily dismissed. What I cannot purge from my mind is the cold hard truth of much of what I read and how it applied to my life. I will never be able to look at women the same ever again.  The worst part of it is realizing that women see you as someone to settle for after their attractiveness is long gone or someone to save them from their self inflicted problems.

        I would like to believe there is still a chance to find happiness and love. I would like to believe not all women are the same but the lessons of Heartiste and The Rational Male get reinforced over and over again by women’s choices and behavior.  I learned to watch what women choose versus what they say.

        I have reached a point where I am MGTOW not out of a hate induced choice. It is because the older I get the less I care. Friday night will roll around again and I will stay home because its not worth my time to look for the needle in the  hay stack. I can think of a dozen other things I would rather do than subject myself to the dating game and the whimsical nature and snap judgements of women.

        I cannot deny that I would love to have a woman to share my life with but I refuse to settle for what it appears women are willing to give me…

         

         

         

        1. jeremy

          @SEH, that is what I meant when I wrote that men leave the manosphere more damaged than they arrived.  You think you are seeing “cold hard truth,” but in fact you are only seeing part of the picture and ignoring the other pieces.  The way out of your dark hole involves understanding human psychology – in particular, “confirmation bias.”

           

          Confirmation bias is the notion that once we believe something (or fear it to be true), we begin to filter out facts and observations that confirm our beliefs/fears, ignoring other facts/observations that don’t confirm our fears.

           

          Why do so many men from the manosphere migrate to Evan’s blog and spew their hate here?  Because in the multitude of female comments posted here, their confirmation bias easily identifies elements of hypergamy and entitlement that the manosphere discusses.  When these men observe these comments, it confirms their bias and they lash out in despair and disappointment. “I never thought it could be true, but here it is for all to see!”

           

          Here’s the problem, SEH.  In the multitude of female comments here there is also plenty of information that contradicts manospherian dogma.  Women who believe in love.  Women who actually care to know what men want and have some notion of reciprocation – they’ve just been misguided, thinking men want the same things they do.  Women who want a family life with a man, and have no intention of divorcing for frivolous reasons.  Yes, hypergamy and entitlement exist, but values and dedication also exist, and the balance is different in every woman.  You are only paying attention to one end of the spectrum and it is frightening you.

           

          The manosphere believes that “AWALT” (all women are like that), and anyone who believes otherwise is a blue-pill chump.  Better to say that all women have ELEMENTS of that, but also have a multitude of other qualities that may modify or negate those elements.  And if you encounter a woman whose hypergamy is greater than her loyalty, don’t get involved with her.  The women you described in your original posts are lane-changers – women who are attracted to one type of man and marry another.  Ignore those women and find one who has always wanted a guy like you.  They exist.  They just might not look as hot as the women you hope to bag.

        2. Karl R

          SEH said:

          “I would like to believe not all women are the same but the lessons of Heartiste and The Rational Male get reinforced over and over again by women’s choices and behavior.”

          You’re going to believe those “lessons” over the evidence that’s staring you blatantly in the face?

          There are over 100 million adult males in this country. Are you just like all of them?

          Are you just like the two junkies who murdered my grandparents?

          Are you just like the panhandlers wandering downtown?

          Are you just like the Catholic priests who were convicted of sexually abusing children?

          Are you just like Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, or any of the other entrepreneurs who built huge companies up from nothing?

          Are you just like Madow, Fastow, Skilling, or any of the other scammers and schemers who made themselves rich by bilking the public?

           

          You’re not like any of those men (except in the broadest biological terms), but you’ve managed to delude yourself into believing that all women are exactly the same.

          Then you have the unmitigated nerve to suggest that the rest of us are blind, just because we figured out how to date more successfully than you did.

           

           

           

          I’m feeling a vast wave of indifference toward your self-inflicted suffering. You swallowed a vast quantity of cow manure, called it a red pill, then started acting like you’re the enlightened one.

          Whatever.

          If you’re going to go your own way, please do so … quietly.

        3. Jeremy

          Karl R, although I agree with your comment, I think there is more nuance to it than that.  The reason the Red Pill message of hypergamy speaks to so many men is the same reason so many women believe that all men objectify them sexually.  There is an element of truth to both beliefs – enough to trigger confirmation bias.

           

          I think that all men objectify women sexually in their fantasies – it is how male sexuality works.  When men see images of naked women, the areas of their brain that light up are those associated with tool use.  But that objectification is only one part of the complex make-up of a man.  To only see the part of a man that objectifies women is to ignore the other parts of a man that see women as partners, help-mates, soul-mates, play-mates, and mind-mates.  It is to ignore that while some degree of sexual objectification may be present in the male psyche, it may not be all that important or evident in the overall picture, depending on the man.

           

          The same is true of hypergamy, IMHO.  I think that most women desire men whom they can admire for having the qualities they most value in themselves (or wish they had) in greater quantities than themselves.  But in the complex make-up of a woman, that is only one small part of her personality, and may be totally eclipsed/modified by other factors.  If you’re looking for evidence of hypergamy you’ll likely find it….but it may not be all that important in the complex make-up of personality, depending on the woman.

           

          In the end, this means the same thing you wrote – all people are different.  But it adds a qualifier that, I think, speaks to men who believe that all women are hypergamous and women who believe that all men are objectifiers.  The message is that there is a reason you see the patterns that you see, but there is much more you are not seeing.

        4. SEH

          @Jeremy

          You hit it on the head with confirmation bias. As much as I try to fight it  keeps rearing its ugly head. Its what keeps me in this perpetual state I am in.

          “They just might not look as hot as the women you hope to bag.”-Jeremy

          I would be very happy with average. What seems to be attracted to me are morbidly obese women making a passable imitation of Jabba the Hutt or women that have been a pack a day smokers for  decades  and look like Gollum from Lord of The Rings. I am not morbidly obese and I do not smoke or drink. There are reasonably attractive ones that have shown interest in me but they are bundle packaged with truck loads of misery.

          @Karl

          WOW such venom!

          “but you’ve managed to delude yourself into believing that all women are exactly the same.”- Karl

          No I believe there are good women out there and they are not all alike. Its my fault if they don’t like me I never said otherwise. The issue is the ones that make their way to my door step are train wrecks.

          “Then you have the unmitigated nerve to suggest that the rest of us are blind, just because we figured out how to date more successfully than you did.”- Karl

          I don’t believe I said anything that would warrant that self righteous conclusion!

          “I’m feeling a vast wave of indifference toward your self-inflicted suffering.”- Karl

          I never asked you to care. In fact if you are indifferent don’t comment anymore on anything I have to say but I doubt you will be able to refrain from doing so… You strike me as one of those I have to have the last word types!

           

        5. GoWiththeFlow

          SEH,

          “I have reached a point where I am MGTOW not out of a hate induced choice” (@75.2.3)

          “What seems to be attracted to me are morbidly obese women making a passable imitation of Jabba the Hutt or women that have been a pack a day smokers for  decades  and look like Gollum from Lord of The Rings.”

          Consider the possibility that you only seem to attract morbidly obese chain smokers with boxcars full of baggage because the vibe you put off IS hateful.

          “The worst part of it is realizing that women see you as someone to settle for after their attractiveness is long gone or someone to save them from their self inflicted problems.”

          What woman wants to hang out with, much less date and marry a man who thinks her attractiveness is long gone (because she’s older than 22);  who automatically assumes she considers him less than, i.e. has settled;  or assumes they are looking to be saved.  To borrow from Jeremy’s example, do you think men would be lining up to date a woman who’s demeanor screams all men are pigs who objectify women and only want to have sex?

          Jeremy,

          I agree with everything you have said but want to dive deeper into two things that the manosphere really blows way out of proportion.

          Hypergamy–When women are dating they try to attract and form a relationship with the best (as they define best) man that they can.  What’s wrong with that?  On another older post that’s currently attracted a lot of comments, there are men defending the practice of or dropping by to boast that they attract, date, and marry much younger women.  Isn’t that male hypergamy?  Men trying to get the best mate that they can, where “best” is defined as “youngest”?

          Also, as Susan Walsh has written about on her blog Hooking Up Smart, there is absolutely NO empirical evidence that women, en masse, engage in hypergamous behavior after they are in committed relationships, especially marriage.  Yet many manosphere blogs are obsessed with the concept that women dump husbands and break up families to “trade up.”

          “Lane Changing”– which you describe as “women who are attracted to one type of man and marry another.”  Manosphere blogs are ripe with stories of woe about how women who would not have had anything to do with me when I was younger, but now that they are, yikes!, over 30 (and thus ancient hags) are now showing an interest me and I resent it.  A second way this is phrased is the idea that young women ride the alpha cock carousel while vainly ignoring beta guys, only to turn around and “settle” for a beta guy once they’re ancient hags.

          What is not being acknowledged is that people learn through experience, and that women are learning the specifics of what they want and need in a man by dating in their teens and 20s.  Just like young men do.  As a group, women don’t hold it against men that they chase after the cheerleaders and hot, but stuck up sorority girls, while ignoring the mere mortals, when they are younger.  We know those interactions/relationships were learning experiences for you.  Life is sometimes an exercise in contrasts:  A man may appreciate a woman with a calm, sweet demeanor much more after he’s been through the wringer with a drama queen.  In fact, he may appreciate so much more, that he reprioritizes what he looks for in a woman.  Similarly, a woman may realize that a man who has an abundance of alpha traits isn’t emotionally available, and she needs that in a man way more that she needs the strong silent treatment.

        6. Evan Marc Katz

          GWTF – that last paragraph was gold and should be required reading for the MGOTW crowd. Well done.

        7. Chance

          Hi GWTF, I know you asked Jeremy, but I hope you don’t mind if I provide some insights around your points.  As it relates to the concept of hypergamy, I believe women are hypergamous in the sense that they are much more likely to be hounded by nagging doubts about whether they have chosen the best possible mate than men are, and as a result, this is why I’ve observed that women generally (broad strokes here) have a more difficult time making peace with their decision regarding the man they’ve chosen to pair off with.  This makes sense from an evolutionary standpoint since women had much more riding on their decision of a mate than men, who are polygamous by nature, because of the provisioning and protection that they needed to secure.  A man’s propensity is to spread his seed far and wide, of course.  This is why I think the idea of “settling” is so much more terrifying to women than it is to men (again, in general).  Today, most women are able to override their hypergamous instincts just as most men are able to override their polygamous instincts.  Of course, women will continue to be more likely to dream about having a better partner (whether it’s the same man being better or another man altogether), and men will continue to be more likely to dream of banging other women!

           

          Also, while the structure of family law and the legalities of marriage assist women in optimizing their hypergamous instincts (if they choose to do so), the risk of a woman choosing to go this route is slim if her partner continues to grow and improve.  If this happens, his attractiveness to the opposite sex is more likely to higher than his partner as they age, and therefore, she won’t be able to find a better partner than him.  This is why I think men’s fear of women trading up is overblown.

           

          Finally, as it relates to the concept of “changing lanes”, I believe this has more to do with the fact that the male attributes that serve as cues for protection and provisioning used to be present in the same man during our early history, but today that often is not the case.  I’m not sure that “changing lanes” has as much to do with women learning from mistakes when they were younger as most people would like to believe.

        8. jeremy

          @GWTF, so much of what is written about “hypergamy” is BS.  But it is important IMHO to identify the kernel of truth behind the myth, otherwise you can’t dispel it.

           

          I have observed (though I don’t have any science to back this up), that most women tend to value in men the qualities they most value in themselves, or wish they had themselves.   Women who wish they were extroverted want an extroverted guy.  Women who most value their intelligence often want an intelligent guy.  They want to find a man who best exemplifies the qualities they wish they had themselves.  You asked what is wrong with that, and my answer is nothing!  Except….

           

          Except in making the assumption that the qualities that the woman most values in herself today will be the same qualities she most values tomorrow.  Lots of work has been done in psychology that shows humans are not bad at identifying what we want right now, but we really suck at trying to predict what we will want in the future.  We tend to believe that what we will want in the future will be the same as what we want now, and this is usually wrong.

           

          I think that the “lane-changer” – the woman who dates one type of guy in her 20s and another type in her 30s – does so, not because she has learned anything through her dating experiences (except maybe that the guys she is attracted to won’t commit to her), but rather because her priorities have changed.  Whereas she once most valued physical hotness and social status, maybe she now most values stability, income, and parental potential.  She does so because she believes she has “matured”, and that the qualities that she now values are those that she will always continue to value.

           

          Problem is, they may not be – if the calculus of her priorities changes yet again, the type of man to whom she will be attracted will also change.  This is something that many men have experienced – the wife who changed, and lost attraction to her husband because he didn’t.

           

           

          This, IMHO, is what confuses the hell out of men and leads to the myth of hypergamy.  The qualities that men find attractive in women tend not to change over time (for better or for worse), and a man may have trouble understanding why/how the woman who never paid attention to him before suddenly wants to marry him.  Most men wouldn’t have a problem with this – most would be overjoyed – if not for the commonality of experience that it may not last.

           

          And so my best advice to men is to marry the sort of woman who has always wanted a guy like them.  Change is always possible, but the more radical the change, the less stable it tends to be.  YMMV.

           

           

        9. Chance

          Hi jeremy, could you please elaborate on what you think has been written about hypergamy that is BS?  I happen to agree that a lot of it is BS, but I’m curious to hear about the concepts with which you disagree.  Thanks

        10. SEH

          “Consider the possibility that you only seem to attract morbidly obese chain smokers with boxcars full of baggage because the vibe you put off IS hateful”- GWTF

          I highly doubt these women are attracted to hate. You might hate what I had to say. GWTF these are just cold hard facts. I could also add to the list single moms that cannot afford the brood of children they have. The older I have gotten a new class of woman has shown interest in me,  the chronically medically disabled. I  would cast aside my view point in an instant if equal numbers of women without these existing preconditions had shown interest in me. Could you respond  to the facts of the matter or do I get more emotional responses like, you are a hater?

          “What woman wants to hang out with, much less date and marry a man who thinks her attractiveness is long gone (because she’s older than 22);  “-GWTF

          There have been a lot of assumptions made about me so let me address this one. I would like an age appropriate woman that still has even a shred of appeal left. There are plenty of women my age that are still attractive, they happen to be with other men or are not interested in me. The issue is women that wait until the absolute final ounce of their sex appeal is gone to suddenly “realize what is important” or give the ” I have grown and matured” speech. When a woman loses her sex appeal will vary from woman to woman. All I know is once its gone then they show interest in me.  Answer this question GWTF, why is it that only women that have lost their sex appeal would want me. Please GWTF an honest answer and not some dribble about being a hater or the over used “they had to grow and mature”   are really just non answers to avoid the unpleasant question.

          “Lane Changing”– which you describe as “women who are attracted to one type of man and marry another.”  -GWTF

          I would add that lane changers often have some profoundly negative things happen to them to make them change lanes. I have never had a lane changer jump into my lane because something positive happened in her life. Please don’t spin that as more “growth and maturity”.  There is often a severe price to be paid for a woman’s growth and maturity and If I am the one that has to pay I do not see it as growth at all. I just see a woman that wants me to pick up the tab or avoid her situation.

          @Jeremy

          You have been most helpful as someone that went to the “manosphere” and were able to see it for what it was. You admit to some truths without engaging in hand waving their message away as complete rubbish. You also recognize the toxic message. What was the turning point for you and did you ever find happiness?

           

           

           

        11. Adrian

          Hi SEH,

          You asked, “Answer this question GWTF, why is it that only women that have lost their sex appeal would want me. [?]

          I am not GoWithTheFlow but I can answer that question easily…

          The women you want don’t find you physically attractive.

          Jeremy already addressed this above, Tom10 and Emily added to it.

          I don’t know much about the male sites that everyone on here keeps references but I do know about the media (print, televised, and digital) because I took a class on it. I think one of the worse things that has been done to men is to teach us that women don’t care about looks as long as a man has money.

          I am in grad school now but I also currently take a few classes that have nothing to do with my major just for fun and because the subjects interest me.

          One of those classes is evolutionary psychology and another is sociology.

          People love to quote-out of context-that studies have been done to show that women choose partners based on his resources and though this is true, the science behind it is more complex than that.

          Women value a man’s physical beauty as much as men value women’s, the difference is that the research shows that women mate select using long-term qualifications whereas we men use short-term qualifications.

          In other words a woman looking for a relationship may choose a guy who is moderately handsome but he also has qualities of a good long-time partner and father over the guy who is incredibly sexy but shows traits of financial and emotional instability.

          We men are different, we see a hot woman that wants us verse the okay but all around better partner type woman that wants us and we think right now not the next 5 years.

          Yes you may be the exception but that does not change the rule.

          Unfortunately I think we men see this and think to ourselves that, “oh she got with Gary who is not that handsome but he makes $100,000 a year, so women value money more than looks, all I need to do is make a lot of money to get a hot wife.”

          When in reality the reason she got with Gary is because Gary is NOT at all an ugly man even if he is not model but besides his looks he has the other qualities she is looking for in a husband.

          Have you ever noticed that women who talk about sex focus on a guys body and looks but women who talk about love and relationships focus on a man’s character and stability?

          …   …   …

          My advice to you SEH is to read what Jeremy, Tom10, and Emily said about being desirable. Especially what Emily said as far as having that balance.

          If women are rejecting you it is most likely firstly your looks, then it is your finances, and lastly it would be your attitude.

          So clean yourself up, go to the gym, and YES! Consider plastic surgery if you still are not appealing enough to get the type of women you want.

          I think to many men are to proud to get plastic surgery but as the saying goes: “When you are starving you can’t eat your pride.”

          …   …   …

          Oh and those studies that show that women choose men based off of his financial ability were dealing with men that were top earners or at least he out earned a woman that was impoverished. So yeah you can look like the singer Seal and get a Heidi Klum but you have to be incredibly wealthy or she has to be really poor.

          ..

          .

          My sources: Go to any student book store and buy a evolutionary psychology or a sociology text book.

        12. jeremy

          SEH – ultimately the question of what is “true” is not useful.  We humans really have no idea what is true – our emotions lead us to believe in something and engage our rational minds to find corroborating evidence (confirmation bias, remember?).

           

          A much more useful question is: “what makes you HAPPY?”  You sound pretty miserable right now, and you are hoping that if you could only find the right girl, that would make you happy.  I’m about to lay some truth on you, SEH: Happiness comes from the inside, not the outside.  Nothing external will make you happy for more than a brief moment.  Find a lifestyle that makes you happy, and your happiness will be much more attractive to women.

           

          Watch the TED talk by Martin Seligman – he discusses how people often bark up the wrong tree in the search for happiness, and how really it can be achieved through – positive affect, engagement, relationships, meaning, and achievement (the “PERMA” principle).  This will help you.

           

          You asked what my first step was in rejecting the manosphere message?  It was realizing that it was making my life miserable rather than happy.  Don’t you agree?

        13. Karl R

          SEH asked:

          “There are plenty of women my age that are still attractive, they happen to be with other men or are not interested in me. […] Answer this question GWTF, why is it that only women that have lost their sex appeal would want me.”

          I can think of a couple reasons.

           

          Reason 1, specific to MGTOW:

          I find it likely that you and I could look at the same woman and completely disagree about whether or not she still has her sex appeal. I’ve read some stuff in the manosphere where the guys spew particularly nasty statements about women I would describe as modestly attractive.

          While I find my wife sexy, she is also 63. I have no doubts that numerous MGTOW would have truly horrible things to say about her appearance. I believe the same would hold true for Evan’s wife, who is an attractive woman in her 40s, but also not likely to be mistaken for a supermodel.

          So if you and I can look at the same woman, and I see someone sexy, while you see someone who no longer is (or never was), that’s on you.

           

          Reason 2, Something that Applies Equally to Women:

          Women often ask (on this blog) how they can avoid attracting the wrong men. Here’s the condensed version of my answer to those women.

          1. You can’t avoid attracting the wrong men (or women). You either attract more men/women, or fewer men/women. Most of the men/women you attract will be the wrong ones.

          2. If you attract 100 men/women and 95% of them are the wrong ones, then you still have 5 good ones to choose from. If you only attract 10 men/women, there’s a fair chance that none of them are good ones. Therefore, it’s always better to attract more men/women.

          3. It’s possible to drive away men/women. However, the first ones you’ll drive away will be the ones with options … generally the best men/women. Therefore, driving people away is the worst possible scenario.

           

          SEH,

          Everything you’ve typed here convinces me that you drive away lots of women. When I ended up talking to a toxic, negative woman, I immediately started plotting my exit strategy, and I resented every minute wasted in her presence.

          None of those women were as toxic or negative as you.

          Your results back me up. The only women willing to give you the time of day are the ones with the fewest options.

           

          Jeremy is right. Learn how to become happy (while single). Misery may love company, but nobody else loves misery’s company.

        14. Shaukat

          Answer this question GWTF, why is it that only women that have lost their sex appeal would want me. [?]

          Probably because you lack sex appeal. If you want my advice at all, I’d suggest you forget about women for awhile, get a gym membership and focus on getting to single digit body fat (while maintaining a healthy overall weight). Not only will it provide you with a goal and keep you away from those sites, but if you accomplish the task it will boost your confidence and do more for your sex appeal than simply engaging in positive thinking.

        15. GoWiththeFlow

          SEH,

          “Answer this question GWTF, why is it that only women that have lost their sex appeal would want me. Please GWTF an honest answer and not some dribble about being a hater or the over used “they had to grow and mature”   are really just non answers to avoid the unpleasant question.”

          I DID give you an honest answer.  You didn’t like it so you dismiss it as “dribble”.  YOU TURN WOMEN OFF with your hateful attitude and the one-dimensional, misogynistic beliefs about women.

          Karl R explained this perfectly in his comment to you.  Specifically under Reason 2, #3:  “It’s possible to drive away men/women. However, the first ones you’ll drive away will be the ones with options … generally the best men/women. Therefore, driving people away is the worst possible scenario.”

          You seem to believe that because you attract some women, even though you find them undesirable,  that you can’t possibly be putting out a hateful vibe.  As Karl points out, the undesirable women you are attracting may be focused on you because they don’t have options.  If a guy with a misogynistic worldview is all they can get then their options are that or stay at home.

          An attractive woman is one with options.  Included in her options are men who have cheerful demeanors, a positive outlook on life, and an appreciation that women are interesting multi-dimensional human beings.  You will lose out to those guys every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

          Here’s an example of how your hatefulness has come out in this thread:

          A man with a healthy attitude towards women will say, “I’m not attracted to women who are obese.”  What you did is disparage overweight women by comparing them to Jabba the Hut.  A man with a healthy attitude says, “Smoking is a turn off, and it really affects how a woman ages.”  What you said is it makes women look like Gollum from LOTR.  You can express your preferences without being mean and dehumanizing the women you are talking about.

          This reminds me of the time I was with a group of people at an event at a restaurant/bar that had a game on a TV.  A commercial came on for a movie that was in theaters at that time.  One guy made a snarky comment about how the (very attractive) lead actress “really needed a boob job.”  The women in our group all looked at each other a rolled our eyes.  This guy also wonders why he can’t get any “sluts” and routinely complains that women have entitlement issues.  He is good looking with a solid career, and yet entitled sluts pass on him all the time to go out with guys who treat them and other women well.

          Men who hold negative beliefs about women don’t walk up to a gal and say, “Hi I’m X and I hate women.”  But the snarky judgmental comments and constant stream of grievances out of their mouths are their truth.

          SEH, you clearly don’t think that you have a negative, hateful demeanor that is turning women off.  The thing is, your perception is not what matters for practical purposes.  What matters is what the women you come across see in you.  And the attractive ones are voting with their feet when they walk away from you.

          This is like you are a restaurant owner that gets perfect inspections from the Department of Health, but who doesn’t have any customers, especially repeat customers, because the place looks dirty with dingy paint, peeling formica table tops, and scuffed linoleum.  What matters practically isn’t the Health Department’s opinion but the opinion of the customers.

          Of all of the statements that you have made YOU are the only common denominator.

          “What seems to be attracted to me are morbidly obese women . . .”

          “The issue is the ones that make their way to my door step are train wrecks.”

          “. . . a new class of woman has shown interest in me,  the chronically medically disabled.”

          You have a perception problem when it comes to women, but you blame the women.  At any rate, the only person’s attitude and behavior you can change is your own.  Instead you want women and the world to change.

          Your choices are clear:  Do the mental work to deprogram your brain from the cult-like red pill ideology you were indoctrinated into, or things stay the same.  And if you’re unhappy with the current status quo, then maybe it’s worth the time and effort to change your mindset.

           

        16. SEH

          “You asked what my first step was in rejecting the manosphere message?  It was realizing that it was making my life miserable rather than happy.  Don’t you agree?”- Jeremy

          Agreed!

          “The women you want don’t find you physically attractive.”-Adrian

          I have been told by my female friends I am average. I do not repulse but I do not attract. Then again they could be telling me lies to spare my feelings. Yes a gym membership would add  to my image so I will start with that.

          “So if you and I can look at the same woman, and I see someone sexy, while you see someone who no longer is (or never was), that’s on you.”- Karl

          I thought you were indifferent… Karl would you feel the same about this woman if you did not have shared memories with her? Would you feel the same if she told you she just wanted to be friends while you watched her with other men for years. Would you feel the same if she arrived when she was 63 instead of lets say 33. Would you feel the same if last week she was perfectly fine and could not love you but today she is chronically disabled and spouts “Where have you been all my life”.

          Karl you are making lots of assumptions. I would love to grow old with a woman, I just want shared memories not a life time of what she gave to other men. Time spent together when times were good and she had choices and options. If a woman invests in me when times are good I will carry her when times are bad. I will see her inner beauty when the external beauty is gone.

          “If you only attract 10 men/women, there’s a fair chance that none of them are good ones. Therefore, it’s always better to attract more men/women.”- Karl

          The best advice yet of all your comments. I don’t do enough to meet or attract women. If I could increase the number of women I meet then your example of 5 out of a 100 would probably come true. Unfortunately I live in a rural area, probably 10,000 people in 100 square miles. I was trapped here after my divorce (married 16 years) because I refused to sign my children over to my ex-wife. The children are grown and gone. I could leave but I have 9 years left to go to draw a pension and I cannot walk away from it. I torture myself daily, give up financial security and move to where more women are or stay and condemn myself to another decade of being alone. If I was ten years younger I would be long gone! To give you and idea of what online dating is like there are about 30 women in the 40-50 age bracket. I am attracted to about 6 of them and they are not interested in me. Years pass and its the same women over and over again almost nothing changes.

          “I DID give you an honest answer.  You didn’t like it so you dismiss it as “dribble”.  YOU TURN WOMEN OFF with your hateful attitude and the one-dimensional, misogynistic beliefs about women”-GWTF

          I think you are basing your entire opinion about me based on the Jabba and Gollum references. I don’t actually spout that crap in a woman’s presence.  To be honest I am kind to these women and actually take the time to acknowledge their lives while most men just look away. However I never flirt with them so they don’t get the wrong ideas and never respond to their flirting.

          I used my choice of words for emphasis otherwise everyone would assume I expected to have a playboy model, slightly overweight I can handle, morbidly obese I cannot. The Jabba reference was to place an image in peoples minds otherwise they make assumptions.

          “A man with a healthy attitude towards women will say”- GWTF

          Don’t be naïve to believe those healthy attitude men are enlightened. You would not believe the vile things many of them they will say about women once they are out of ear shot. Many men have learned to put on a good act for women.

          “You have a perception problem when it comes to women, but you blame the women”- GWTF

          Yes I am imagining the women that have rejected me and I am imaging the women that are attracted to me (plus their very real circumstances) I have already admitted its my fault multiple times if women don’t like me or are not attracted to me.  Where is my perception problem?

          As of right now the only  conclusion I am coming to based on your comments is you took offense to my Jabba and Gollum reference, created a complete back story in your mind then leaped to the conclusion that I am misogynist. Female logic and reasoning at its finest.

           

           

           

        17. Callie

          As of right now the only  conclusion I am coming to based on your comments is you took offense to my Jabba and Gollum reference, created a complete back story in your mind then leaped to the conclusion that I am misogynist. Female logic and reasoning at its finest.

           

          It’s called show don’t tell. You might SAY you are not misogynistic, but how is anyone supposed to know that when the words you choose are quite the opposite. That Jabba thing was a really nasty negative thing you said, and yes, people are going to judge you based on your decision to say such things. You have now explained why you made those choices of words, but again, how was anyone supposed to know that was your motivation? We read what you said, and yes, without any other context made assumptions.

          But here’s something else: you ended this paragraph by insulting “female logic and reasoning”. Once again you SAY you’re not misogynistic but then show through your word choices and actions that you are. So maybe this might be something you might wish to consider: you claim you don’t act a certain way in public in front of women, but maybe you aren’t your own best judge. Considering you think it shows you off in a good light to end your defense of not being a bad guy or a misogynist by saying something pretty darn exactly that, I would hazard a guess that you aren’t.

        18. Karl R

          SEH said:

          “Unfortunately I live in a rural area, probably 10,000 people in 100 square miles.”

          100 square miles … that’s equal to a 10 mile by 10 mile square. Slightly larger than a 5 mile radius.

          If you’re willing to expand your search to a 50 mile radius, you’ll be covering 7,800 square miles. There may be several thousand more people living in that expanded area.

           

          SEH asked:

          “Karl would you feel the same about this woman if you did not have shared memories with her? Would you feel the same if she told you she just wanted to be friends while you watched her with other men for years. Would you feel the same if she arrived when she was 63 instead of lets say 33.”

          Are you asking specifically about my wife? I met her when she was 54. We started dating when she was 55.

          Apparently a guy was hitting on her when we were at a birthday party last night. (He must have overlooked the rings on her hand … and he was unsubtle enough that she started getting creeped out.) Clearly I’m not the only one who finds my wife attractive at 63.

          Addressing your other point, my wife clearly did date other men over the years, but I wasn’t hanging around watching her do that. But I have subsequently met a few of the guys she dated.

           

          SEH asked:

          “Would you feel the same if last week she was perfectly fine and could not love you but today she is chronically disabled and spouts ‘Where have you been all my life’.”

          I don’t want to make assumptions or put words in your mouth, but you’re phrasing your question in somewhat vague terms.

          Are you saying that there is a woman (or multiple women) who previously rejected your advances? After rejecting your advances, she developed a chronic disability? And after developing the chronic disability, she asked you “Where have you been all my life?”

          Did I get that right? And this has happened, not once, but with multiple women?

           

          If a woman did that to me, I would strongly suspect that she was just using me for insurance, and other types of support. Obviously, I’m not interested in being used that way.

          But there are women who had chronic conditions when I first met them. (I wouldn’t say they were disabled, since they held down jobs, had insurance, and were able to manage the other aspects of their lives.) I have dated a couple of those women.

           

          SEH said:

          “I would love to grow old with a woman, I just want shared memories not a life time of what she gave to other men. Time spent together when times were good and she had choices and options.”

          My wife is older than me. It seems highly likely that I will become a widower in my seventies. I also expect to eventually remarry. My next wife and I won’t have the option of growing old together. We’ll start out old and keep getting older.

          If/when I start dating as a widower, I expect to be older, grayer and wrinklier (just like the women I’ll be dating). I also expect to still have options, as will the women I’ll date.

           

          When I eventually reenter the dating market, I’m sure the first few women I date will be ones who were already in my social circle. It sounds like you would expect the women to resent me, since I had spent my 40s, 50s and 60s faithfully married to my wife, rather than divorcing her and pursuing them.

          (Again, I may be misunderstanding what you’re saying, because you communicate in a rather vague manner.)

          But if that’s how you really feel, I have to say that you have a rather unusual way of viewing the situation.

          The men and women that I know, may resent someone after they’ve been dumped. They don’t resent someone for being willing to date them (even if they were pursuing others previously).

           

          Regarding indifference:

          I said I was indifferent to your suffering. But as I pointed out to Nick (further down the thread), you provide a dark mirror, one that I can use to show women how misandry, negativity and resentment (whether theirs or others) appears to men.

          You’re doing a great job of serving as a bad example.

        19. GoWiththeFlow

          SEH,

          Let’s get this out of the way first. . .

          SEH said, “Female logic and reasoning at its finest.”

          I have said substantively the same thing to you that other men on this comment thread have:  That your negative attitude about women turns women off.  And while you have given terse retorts to some of the men, I am summarily dismissed and insulted by you based on my female gender.  This, right here, is the crux of your problem.  Men you disagree with, a woman, on the other hand, is thinking illogically.

          SEH said, “I just want shared memories not a life time of what she gave to other men. Time spent together when times were good and she had choices and options.”
          Not a life time of what she gave to other men”
          What the heck does that even mean?  You are a middle aged divorced man with kids.  A woman who takes on you has to accept your history, including that you spent your youth married to another woman and will always be tied to her through your children.  Yet it seems that you expect a 40-50 year old woman to have been kept on a shelf in the closet covered in bubble wrap, just so she has had no interactions with men that you find objectionable.

          “What I cannot purge from my mind is the cold hard truth of much of what I read and how it applied to my life. I will never be able to look at women the same ever again.  The worst part of it is realizing that women see you as someone to settle for after their attractiveness is long gone or someone to save them from their self inflicted problems.”

          You will never be able to look at women the same way.  Meaning you now have a negative view of them.

          “Karl would you feel the same about this woman if you did not have shared memories with her? Would you feel the same if she told you she just wanted to be friends while you watched her with other men for years.”

          So you look at women who had prior relationships with other men and resent them for it because they should have been with you?

          It’s not just the Jabba the Hut and Gollum comments.  You’re jaded view of women flows throughout your comments.

           

        20. SEH

          @Karl

          Oops my choice of words was wrong I should of said a 100 mile radius. I live in the largest community  in the region population 4,000. The nearest city is 3 hours away.

          I believe you and I have had very different experiences when it comes to women. You seem to have enjoyed successful relationships with healthy, attractive, reasonable women. This has shaped your view and experience. You remind me of a friend of mine that has enjoyed profound success. He cannot grasp what it is like to be me. Please don’t interpret that as an insult to you Karl.   I posed this question to my friend, What if the only women that were interested in you had to have these negative preconditions would you still have your upbeat positive view of them? He can’t answer the question because it is beyond the realm of his experience.

          To answer one of your questions yes I have had women reject me only to come back after a negative down turn in their lives. Hell my ex-wife is a prime example, she has repeatedly asked me to take her back in-between failed relationships with other men. She is the one that filed for divorce and thought she could trade up… I have had a woman try to  trap me with seduction when she was pregnant with another mans child. The list goes on and on…

          The most common thread I see in all of these women is maxed out credit cards, bounced checks and teetering on the edge of financial Armageddon. Suddenly clowns that have mastered the art of producing “chemistry” in 30 seconds or less have vanished. Nice guys now get the spot light…

          The bottom line is I am sick of being the last choice for a woman when she is out of options and choices. This is why I can’t shake the lessons of Heartise, The Rational Male and the “Manosphere”. I accept that it is my fault I do not attract. I also insist women own their choices and stop spinning every negative as “growth and maturity”.

          @GWTF

          My comment regarding  “female logic and reasoning at its finest” is not misogynist! I have seen MANY  (not all) women in the work force and in the relationships I have had present female intuition and feelings as facts. They leap to conclusions that are devoid of reason. When cold hard facts are presented  where they cannot wish them away they tend to freak out , shut down or hurl insults. Most commonly the conversation is over therefore they were never defeated…

          Oh one more thing I don’t believe women should be in a bubble.  I accept they have had lives before they met me. I am just sick of lane changers and women that are out of options. I am also sick of women that change their value systems at the drop of a hat. Example..

          When did you become a lady?

          About 10 seconds ago!

          Oh so for the chemistry clowns you were a sex kitten but for me you are not?

          But I have grown and matured and if you cannot see that you are a misogynist!

          Oh one final note I think you missed the part about my children being grown and “gone”.

        21. GoWiththeFlow

          SEH,

          ROFL!  Get therapy. Really.  Your own cognitive dissonance is breathtaking.

          The two beliefs that are mutually exclusive, yet held as truth in one mind:

          #1:  “My comment regarding  “female logic and reasoning at its finest” is not misogynist!”

          #2:  “I have seen MANY  (not all) women in the work force and in the relationships I have had present female intuition and feelings as facts. They leap to conclusions that are devoid of reason. When cold hard facts are presented  where they cannot wish them away they tend to freak out , shut down or hurl insults. Most commonly the conversation is over therefore they were never defeated…”

          Aw, did you cut and paste this imaginary conversation from Heartsite or RM?

          “When did you become a lady?

          About 10 seconds ago!

          Oh so for the chemistry clowns you were a sex kitten but for me you are not?

          But I have grown and matured and if you cannot see that you are a misogynist!”

          Face it, this is all in your mind.  You sit around stewing and your imagination runs amok about all the malevolent ways women are out to get you.

          Stay in your small town and get your pension.  Moving to the big city won’t help you because it’s not a numbers game, it’s what’s inherent in you that is the problem.

          BTW, I know I am not going to change your Manosphere belief system.  That’s a job for a cult deprogrammer since you are in so deep.  My hope is that hurt, lonely men out there may see the comments on Evan’s blog and will pull themselves back from the abyss of hate and perpetual victimhood.

        22. SEH

          @GWTF

          Well you started off with I was a hater, quickly jumped to misogynist and summed it up with I need therapy. You claim I am imagining everything  and I am some how mentally ill. What facts do you bring to this discussion to support your claim? What qualifications do you have to decide I am mentally ill?  You said I believe women are out to get me implying I am paranoid. I never said all women at out to get me just women without options and that is not paranoia. My experiences are facts not something you can just wish away and rush to your mental diagnosis and judgement. You have said only one thing I agree with, “You turn women off”, at least the women I find desirable. Yes I accept responsibility for who I am and If they find me desirable or not.

          I will stay in my small town you are right going to the city will probably just produce more of the same results on a grander scale. By the time I reach retirement I won’t care at all. Women owe me nothing and I will in turn owe them nothing.

          I am done by the way beyond this point it just gets nasty and personal. You can have the final word if you desire. Thanks to all of for taking the time to comment.

           

        23. GoWiththeFlow

          SEH,

          You said:

          “Well you started off with I was a hater, quickly jumped to misogynist and summed it up with I need therapy. You claim I am imagining everything  and I am some how mentally ill. What facts do you bring to this discussion to support your claim?”

          Just for the record, a misogynist is inherently a hater:  It’s someone who hates women.

          The “facts” I bring are your own thoughts, feelings, and beliefs that you wrote about in your comments.  (And for someone who twice said I was being emotional, you sure are bringing all of yours to the party.)  And I never said you were mentally ill.  What I did say was “get therapy.”  I said that because people who are hurt and are unhappy with aspects of their life (in your case your interactions with women) yet feel powerless to change, can benefit greatly from therapy.  Read what you wrote here:

          “It is unfortunate that I actually paid it a visit along with sites like Heartiste and the Rational Male. The hate can be easily dismissed. What I cannot purge from my mind is the cold hard truth of much of what I read and how it applied to my life. I will never be able to look at women the same ever again.”

          And in another comment further down the thread:

          “You hit it on the head with confirmation bias. As much as I try to fight it  keeps rearing its ugly head. Its what keeps me in this perpetual state I am in.”

          And this:

          @Jeremy.  You have been most helpful as someone that went to the “manosphere” and were able to see it for what it was. You admit to some truths without engaging in hand waving their message away as complete rubbish. You also recognize the toxic message. What was the turning point for you and did you ever find happiness?

          ““You asked what my first step was in rejecting the manosphere message?  It was realizing that it was making my life miserable rather than happy.  Don’t you agree?”- Jeremy

          Agreed!

          You admitted you are unhappy and feel you cannot get yourself back to a place where you can get what you want:  a relationship with a woman you find attractive and who has positive character traits you desire.  Therapy can help get you there.

          YOU (SEH) said:  “My experiences are facts not something you can just wish away. . .

          Your experiences ARE NOT facts, they are experiences that lead to OPINIONS, and opinions are not facts.  Go back and read Jeremy’s posts on confirmation bias.

          Regarding experience being fact or leading to opinions:

          “You said I believe women are out to get me implying I am paranoid. I never said all women at out to get me just women without options and that is not paranoia.”

          So women without options are out to get you?  What, can they tie you up, force a gun to your head and make you marry them?

          As Karl R said:  “You can’t avoid attracting the wrong men (or women). You either attract more men/women, or fewer men/women. Most of the men/women you attract will be the wrong ones.”

          People get hit on by people they’re not attracted to or don’t like all the time.  It’s the price of doing business.  The problem seems to be that you perseverate on it and are angry about it, and can’t let go of it.  Your attitude seems to be “How DARE they!”  What’s the big deal?  Say no thanks and move on.

          Instead you seem to mull it over in your head and create a whole narrative about these women that is your opinion (no doubt helped along by the manosphere lessons).  These women are “lane changers” who are damaged, gave their “sex kitten” best selves to “bad boys”, and now feel entitled to be rescued.

          The first two sentences below illustrates this:

          “The bottom line is I am sick of being the last choice for a woman when she is out of options and choices. This is why I can’t shake the lessons of Heartise, The Rational Male and the “Manosphere”. I accept that it is my fault I do not attract. I also insist women own their choices and stop spinning every negative as “growth and maturity”.”

          Those last two sentences say it all.  You give lip service to accepting responsibility for your situation, while still trying to stick the blame on women.

           

      4. 75.2.4
        Shaukat

        The reason the Red Pill message of hypergamy speaks to so many men is the same reason so many women believe that all men objectify them sexually.
        The main issue with hypergamy, at least as it is understood by the red pill types, is that the concept is supposed to be rooted in evolutionary psychology, a field which, at best, involves massive guess work. EP is unlike Evolutionary Biology in that the latter can be corroborated through fossil evidence, experimentation, and microbiology, while EP entails spinning fanciful stories that may or may not be true.

        Hypergamy literally means marrying/dating above one’s social class status. Homo-sapiens evolved during the Pleistocene period, when the concept of money was non-existent and daily survival was the most important factor driving evolution since resources/food was extremely scarce. Adopting conventional theories of sexual selection, and ignoring the three other mechanisms aside from natural selection that drive the evolutionary process (drift , mutation, and migration), we can safely assume that females would have evolved to select traits in a mate that would have ensured their own survival, manifested through phenotypes such as height (to maximize survival during periods of famine, when food was located in difficult to reach places), physical size/strength, etc.

        “Status,” whatever that meant during that period, would not have played any role in mate election, especially since individuals were organized in tribes and pairing off was facilitated by elders. In other words, if we assume that that the behaviors associated with the above selection criteria have become a fixed trait in females (a rather big assumption in my opinion), then literally the only deduction we can draw from the evidence is that females will select based on good genes, i.e, physical characteristics (health, strength, height, etc), manifested most often as ‘chemistry.’ Desire based on other factors, money, status, wealth, fame, power, are probably the product of socialization, despite claims to the contrary.

        In other words, while generosity and kindness are important, the root of the frustration of men like SEH is that they erroneously assume that the above will suffice, and when it doesn’t, they buy the MRA swill that women only care about money, dominance, which breeds further resentment.

        Fixing the physical characteristics that they have control over would thus massively improve their odds, but because of the ongoing myth that women don’t really care about such things, MRA sites flourish.

         

  16. 76
    James

    Most of the women nowadays are really very stupid to begin with since they will only go with the bad boy type of men unfortunately which really makes it very complicated for many of us good men nowadays looking to meet a good woman to settle down with. The very sad thing is that these women will be treated very badly by these type of men since these women really don’t know any better anyway. Thank God that most women weren’t like that at all years ago which most men and women in those days made it very easy meeting one another which today is totally a different story altogether. They deserve what they get.

    1. 76.1
      Henriette

      Most of the women nowadays are really very stupid to begin with…  Gee, thank you; what a lovely comment to make on a blog for women, that is read by thousands of women!
      they will only go with the bad boy type of men unfortunately which really makes it very complicated for many of us good men...   How does it complicate matters for good men?  A woman who genuinely wants a man who treats her badly suffers from all kinds of issues that would make her a lousy long-term mate.   If anything, if women with poor judgement and low self-esteem won’t date you, that should simplify dating by screening out poor candidates.
      men and women in those days made it very easy meeting one another…  Really?  I’ve heard many stories of heartbreak and loneliness from past generations.  I don’t think that finding lasting, healthy love has ever been impossible nor has it ever been easy.

    2. 76.2
      Bala

      yes we are really, really, very stupid……………. FFS, why are we 60% of University entrances then??  We are overtaking you bozos who are sitting on your laurels thinking balls make you smart, lol… Younger men surround me daily wanting to work for me. seriously, you old dudes are dinosaurs when it comes to viewing women the way they actually are – moverz and shakers and willing to do what it takes, as well as, having the empathy to see the way it SHOULD be done. we don’t step on other people to get where we are. James, get a clue and man TFU.  Wah wah – good men,,,,, wah wah. What about us good women? We’ve been around for literal centuries. You guys are just a shadow.

  17. 77
    Lone Rose

    I dream of meeting a nice guy all the time, particularly more so after all the bad men i have encountered in my past! So i couldn’t be more opposite to those sort of women who like the ‘bad boys’!

    1. 77.1
      Nick

      Being kind is the key. Real women make men real men. Natural attraction involves masculine men and feminine women. Women have wanted to be Supremacists for decades. Look at how unhappy most women are. The good women are expressing their dislike for those types because they look bad now. So you can’t write off what I’m saying to masogyny.

      1. 77.1.1
        Persephone

        Nick, maybe it would help me understand you if you describe what you mean when you say, ” Women have wanted to be Supremacists for decades.”  Do you mean women who want to be stay-at-home moms?  Or women who wear lace, and look pretty, and do their hair?

        Or do you mean women who sit down and shut up when they are paid $8.00, while their male coworker who does the same job but is less effective and has been there less time gets $13.00 an hour?  Or do you mean us uppity women who want to leave the office job that pays $8.00 an hour, to go out in the production area to make $18.00 an hour, because we grew up on a farm driving tractors and probably have more forklift driving skills than the men do?  Or the woman on the job that is mostly men, who grabs the chainsaw to “git ‘er dun” because she used to be married to a logger, and no one else stepped up to the plate to do the work?  Yeah? That same woman, while not in a hard hat, can still dress pretty and girly.  She can afford cuter dresses and better hair products, too, for working a male dominated job.

        So I don’t get your comments.

        1. Nick

          I meant be dominant over men in relationships and try to make men the submissive ones. It isnt natural and women are actually attracted to masculine men, whether they want to admit it or not.

        2. Persephone

          I am not trying to be difficult, but can you give examples, Nick?  I want to understand you .  What is “being dominant over men” in your opinion?  Since we are obviously not talking about kinky sex BDSM, you should clarify.  Do you mean by making more money?  Or do you mean by being involved in the decision-making process on how much to allocated of the household budget on various things?   I am not understanding you, so I hope you can clarify.

  18. 78
    Nick

    Evan these types of women end up fat,single, and alone and miserable. They won’t pick nice men because they know they don’t deserve them. Have you watched Paul Elam videos? What about Karen Straughans? They describe American women to the T.

    1. 78.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      No, they hate American women, generalize them, and place the entire burden of relationship failure on women. I distribute equal opportunity blame instead of foolishly heaping it on one gender. Now, please, go back to the Mansophere and leave the adults to their even-tempered discussion.

      1. 78.1.1
        Nick

        A straight woman is generalizing American women? That makes no sense. The Census Bureau claims the divorce rate is 51%. American women are ranked #2 on the worst nationality of partners list, next to British women. Read the womens’ comments above. They aren’t the brightest crayons in the box.

        1. Karl R

          Paul Elam is a woman?

          Are you sure?

          And if you’re relying on “Red Pills” or Return of Kings for your facts … well … maybe you shouldn’t be badmouthing the other crayons.

        2. GoWiththeFlow

          The divorce rate is not 51%.  http://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/marriage/the-divorce-rate-in-the-united-states-is-declining/

          But people who want the divorce rate to be high because it fits their narrative that American women suck (OMG they’re number #2 in the world for worst partner!–Yeah, link that scientific study dude) will continue to repeat that.  Including a few straight American women who have figured out that manosphere guys will adore them if they throw all other women under the bus.  Guys tell me that there are men out there that kiss up to women by playing the ‘Yeah, I agree with you ladies, men are horrible!” card.  Because the inherent implication is they are one of the few who isn’t horrible.  It’s a unique niche they carve out for themselves.

      2. 78.1.2
        Persephone

        Thank you, Evan!  I could not agree more. I am no fan of the so called “fathers’ rights” movement and the “anti-feminists.”  As an attorney, I strongly believe both parents have rights, but we also must make sure the Best Interests of the Children are focused upon.  The fathers’ rights movement seems to trample on children’s rights and blame the mothers.  It’s not abuse, they say, it’s Parental Alienation Syndrome, a made up term that is not uniformly recognized by the mental health community or legal community as being valid.  I have had it with bitter men!  (Neither gender has a monopoly on bitterness, but since “Nick” seems to be a male name…. )

    2. 78.2
      Nick

      Karen Straughan is.

      1. 78.2.1
        GoWiththeFlow

        And I bet she’s making a killing in her self-created niche as a Red Pill woman.

        1. Nick

          Any man who watches those videos will feel an incredible sense of being “unbrainwashed.” Thats why they use the Matrix analogy blue pill and red pill.

        2. Karl R

          Nick,

          If you think Karen Straughan is “unbrainwashing you”, then you’ve been taking pills of all sorts of colors.

           

          I’ve watched one of her better videos, the one about systemic gendered violence against men (and parts of three others that were … tiresome). She made some excellent points in that video. She backed some of them up with statistics, without citing the sources of the statistics. When I tracked down credible sources for those statistics, they were inflated.

          She also made a lot of really weak points. She especially had an annoying habit of trying to disprove or downplay the existence of systemic gendered violence against women (even where the facts clearly showed the existence and prevalence of that violence).

           

          It was sad, really. She could have taken an unassailable position that men -and- women are victims of systemic gendered violence, that in western countries, the men experience a far greater portion of this violence (with some exceptions for specific types of circumstances), and that we are so accustomed to this systemic gendered violence, we consider it to be normal, and even morally right.

          Instead, she used inflated and unverifiable statistics and took weak positions in order to make her case more one-sided.

           

          If you believe every word she says, without a huge dose of skepticism, you are being brainwashed.

        3. GoWiththeFlow

          Nick honey,

          You seem to be new around here.  I’ve been reading Evan’s blog for  ~3 years now and there is something of a phenomenon that happens where different Red Pill guys pop up every few months on this blog about forming healthy relationships to proselytize with all the fervor of a true believin’ religious fanatic about how relationships suck because women suck and men are society’s victims.  I don’t know if they’re here to win over new converts by “unbrainwashing” the unbelievers who think women are decent human beings, but after a flurry of red pill comments, they give up and return to their safe havens in the manosphere.

          Just letting you know how this typically goes ahead of time.

           

  19. 79
    Persephone

    I don’t want “bad boys.”  I want “nice.”  I have found an incredibly nice, well mannered fella.  We are taking things slowly, and been seeing each other for six months.  Our work schedules are crazy busy, so we only get weekends.  Most men would demand more from me, and most women would demand more from him, so that is probably why each of us didn’t work in relationships with others. He has never called me bad names or been horrible to me, but then on the other hand he does not suffocate me, either.  The right balance is refreshing.  No bad boys for this ol’ gal!

  20. 80
    Nick

    Karen Straughan is and 99% of women my age are alone or in codependent marriages.

    1. 80.1
      GoWiththeFlow

      “. . . 99% of women my age are alone or in codependent marriages.”

      Back that up with scientific statistics Nick.  Otherwise you are regurgitating an opinion that is being used in an exercise on confirmation bias.

  21. 81
    Nick

    The Census Bureau will give you the accurate divorce rate, not that link…

    1. 81.1
      Karl R

      Where to find divorce rates:

      The CDC tracks divorce statistics, based on Census Bureau data. It’s possible that Nick found a link to a CDC report on the Census Bureaus cite, but the bulk of the reports will be accessible from the CDC website.

      Neither site provides data which is sufficiently granular for me to run my own statistical analyses.

       

      The divorce rate:

      Which one?

      Off the top of my head, I can think of three different ways that the divorce rate is calculated. All of them have problems.

      When I think of the divorce rate, I’m thinking of my chance of making it “until death do us part”. If that’s what you’re looking for, sorry. None of them calculate that. If either the husband or wife dies, the couple is excluded from the calculation.

       

      A 51% divorce rate:

      If you look at older data (or a combination of older/newer data), you can probably get a number right around 50%. It’s also possible that Nick found a particular recent calculation that yielded this rate. I can’t speak to the reliability or weaknesses of the calculation without seeing an explanation for how it was derived.

      Regardless of the methodology, people who get married young skew the divorce rate upward.

      1. 81.1.1
        Nick

        Im not a bad person nor a masogynist. Im willing to love a woman thatll love me. Why is everybody hitting me with hurtful comments?

        1. Katie

          Nick said….

          Evan these types of women end up fat,single, and alone and miserable. They won’t pick nice men because they know they don’t deserve them.  Evan these types of women end up fat,single, and alone and miserable. They won’t pick nice men because they know they don’t deserve them.

          Hi, Nick! That’s why.

        2. Katie

          Oh and btw, it misogynist. Miso like the soup.

        3. Evan Marc Katz

          Nick’s reply was a direct insult to Katie and was also misspelled.

          -The Management

        4. GoWiththeFlow

          Nick,

          You are promoting Red Pill ideology that is chock full of misogyny.    Red Pill is the flip side of the coin of radical feminism.  They both have a lot in common; dehumaning and stereotyping the opposite sex;  an inability to listen to the other side (because you need not listen to a sub-human); dismissal of any data or information that contradicts their worldview; an us versus them mentality;  and embracing the victim role.

          You say you are willing to love a woman who will love you, but what you are missing is that a woman will love a man that loves women.  What about your statements that “99% of women my age are alone or in codependent marriages,” or “Women have wanted to be Supremacists for decades,” or “Look at how unhappy most women are,” says I love women!  Your words say women are complete wretches who want to dominate men.

          Now let’s go over (since you’ve been unbrainwashed and all) what Red Pill orthodoxy states about women.  They are out to ride the cock carousel with bad boys while they’re young while maliciously ignoring nice guys.  And then they become desperate shriveled up hags on their 30th birthday.  Whereupon they malevolently trick a poor beta guy they would have ignored when younger into marriage.  Only to cheat on him every chance they get, because hypergamy!  And then they file for divorce for no good reason and leave their ex destitute and heart broken.  Oh and as SEH says in comment 75, women are “damaged” unless they are a virgin who has never dated or slept with another guy.  But men’s goal should be to fuck (and thereby damage) as many as possible.  And BTW watch out, a woman will claim NAWALT!  Don’t believe it because all women are like this.  Beware guys, no exceptions!

          Yeah, why would any woman be attracted to a man who thinks that about her?  It would be like a radical feminist expecting a man to want to love her despite that fact that she believes all sex is rape, all men want to inherently subjugate women, and they live to make wars and destroy the planet.

          Nick, I don’t know what hurt in your heart drove you to look for answers on the internet and connect with the Red Pill message.  But the attitudes and beliefs you have embraced about women won’t inspire one to love you and want to make you happy.  And it must be miserable on some level to go through life thinking society and women are out to get you at every turn.  That you want a woman to love you but women are inherently untrustworthy, so the answer is to play games in a calculated way.

          Read Jeremy’s response to SEH. (comment 75 thread) Karl R’s too.  And Buck’s beliefs that true alpha confidence in a man comes from working towards goals, embracing responsibility, having a code of ethics and integrity, but also developing a sense of empathy and sympathy.

        5. Nick

          I never said all women are bad. Women who arent feminine are undateable. I never said men should sleep around. I think such men are scum. Everybodys twisting my words around. Ill be happy with just one woman for the rest of my life if its an interdependent marriage.

    2. 81.2
      GoWiththeFlow

      LOL!  Dude!  The researchers used the divorce data from the CDC.

      But don’t let a study using the data from the statistical resource YOU quote interfere with your need to believe that marriage sucks because women suck 😉

      BTW, still waiting for your link to the statistically significant and reproduceable scientific study that shows that “99% of the women” in your age group are “alone or in codependent marriages.”

    3. 81.3
      Nat

      @Nick: “Ill be happy with just one woman for the rest of my life if its an interdependent marriage.” “Being kind is the key… Natural attraction involves masculine men and feminine women. “

      Your desires seem fair enough, from reading some of your comments. I hope u can find what u want, and I’m sure u can, if u keep a positive mindset. 🙂

      What I find puzzling is that u don’t feel that there are many women who meet those (very reasonable) criteria around u–feminine, respectful women who can be one half of a mutually beneficial relationship. I don’t have a ton of female friends, but of those I have, maybe 3/4 of them fit that criteria. It makes me think that maybe your lenses/standards are a bit skewed. I think you would say the same thing to a woman who claimed there were hardly any “good men” around.

      1. 81.3.1
        Nick

        Ive come across some great women. Theyre always married to a good man with kids before I meet them. The women I pursued were the emotionally unavailable types. I wish Id known that before pursuing them. Its THEM I typically hear say “Nice guys dont exist” or “Where are the all the good men?” I hope my luck changes soon.

  22. 82
    Nick

    Women making angry comments on here are using the terms like “dude” and “buddy.” Im guessing they arent Ivy League. Theyre probably junior college dropouts. The blog is called “Most Women Dont Dream of Dating Nice Guys.” Why would women even be on such a blog? Something’s not stirring the Kool-Aid. A woman who picks bad men must be bad themselves. How are good men who get sent to the ringer wrong?

  23. 83
    Nick

    There is no equal opportunity blame here and if its one-sided(against men) its ok.

    1. 83.1
      Karl R

      Nick said: (#81.3.1)

      “The women I pursued were the emotionally unavailable types. I wish Id known that before pursuing them. Its THEM I typically hear say ‘Nice guys dont exist’ or ‘Where are the all the good men?'”

      If a woman says that (or anything similar, like “All the good men are taken”), then she’s not a good match for any man. As you said, you don’t want to pursue her. You want to dump her as soon as she shows that attitude.

      This type of woman blames men for their dating problems. It’s not your job (or any man’s job) to change her mind. That’s her responsibility.

       

      Nick said: (#81.3.1)

      “Ive come across some great women. Theyre always married to a good man with kids before I meet them.”

      So, in other words, “All the good women are taken.”

      What did I just say about women who said things like that?

       

      When you say things like that, you’re telling the world that you’re not a good match for any woman. Women won’t want to date you. If they’re already dating you, they should dump you as soon as you show that attitude.

      You even had a description for women like that. You called them “emotionally unavailable”.

      When you blame women for your dating problems, it’s not any woman’s job to change your mind. That’s your responsibility.

       

      Nick said: (#83)

      “There is no equal opportunity blame here and if its one-sided(against men) its ok.”

      If you read through this entire website, you will find hundreds of places where women accuse me (and Evan) of always blaming women.

      That accusation typically comes from women who blame men for their dating problems (the same women you describe as “emotionally unavailable”).

      There are also a similar number of men who accuse me (and Evan) of always blaming men. They’re the ones who blame women for their dating problems.

       

      As I said earlier (#75.1.2.2) blaming women is pointless. (So is blaming men.) It’s your responsibility to fix your own dating problems. Nobody else is going to do it for you.

       

      Nick asked: (#82)

      “The blog is called ‘Most Women Dont Dream of Dating Nice Guys.’ Why would women even be on such a blog?”

      The website is called “Understand Men. Find Love.” (It’s right up at the top of the page.)

      So it would be more appropriate to ask why men are even on this blog.

       

      Evan owns the website, the business, and the blog. His presence is easy to explain.

       

      Many of the most notable male contributors showed up looking for free dating advice. (A few men even become Evan’s clients, but they represent a tiny portion of his client base.) Mostly we’re welcome because we provide insight into what men think.

      Many women are interested in getting someone similar to men like Jeremy, Nathan, Mr. Right or me. (Maybe not someone who looks like us, but someone who thinks and acts like us.) Our posts explain what types of behaviors are likely to attract commitment-minded men, and what type of behaviors are likely to drive those same men away.

      Then there are men like Tom10 and Lance. They’re the charming alphas whom so many women are attracted to … even though these men have no intention of settling down anytime soon. They show women both the attractiveness -and- the futility of chasing a commitment with these men.

      Men like you and SEH, you provide the dark mirror. When a woman shows up and blames men for her dating problems, we can point to posts like yours and ask, “Do you want to date a man who sounds like Nick or SEH?” They, of course, don’t want to date men who blame women. And that’s when we point out that they sound exactly the same way … so no men will want to date them either.

      Some of those women learn. They change their tone. They stop blaming men. They become a lot more successful. Others don’t change. When they leave, they are just as angry and unsuccessful as when they first showed up.

       

      Similarly, you can learn. You can change your tone. You can stop blaming women. You can become a lot more successful. (It still won’t be easy. I was dating steadily for three years before I started dating my wife.)

      Or you can decide not to change. In that case, you will be just as angry and unsuccessful when you leave.

  24. 84
    Nick

    Good. I want a woman to learn and change as well. I want us to eventually cross paths and be together.

    1. 84.1
      Karl R

      Nick said:

      “Good. I want a woman to learn and change as well.”

      Why is that good?

      If a woman learns and changes, she does it for her benefit, not yours.

      And until you change, you’ll still be the kind of person that I recommend that men and women avoid dating.

       

      Just to be clear, my wife did not change. I did.

      1. 84.1.1
        Nick

        I just said Ill improve as a person too. I started working out and striving to improve my overall health.

        1. Karl R

          Nick said:

          “I just said Ill improve as a person too.”

          I think you missed my point.

          Improving as a person is is wonderful. I would strongly recommend looking at what Jeremy wrote (#75.2.2.2) above, and what Tom10 wrote (#75.2.2.3). I would also read the blog post Evan did talking about the importance of the combination of passion and proficiency.

           

          I was asking about the word “too”.

          It sounds like you’re requiring that women change (or a woman changes). It’s certainly nice if you meet a woman who is improving herself and her dating/relationship skills, but that seems like an unnecessary requirement to me.

          More importantly, there are very few women who will be working on their dating and relationship skills. As far as I know, in all my time dating, I never met a woman who had read any of Evan’s advice.

           

          While my wife does improve herself (things like job skills), they’re not necessarily traits that really matter to me. She certainly hasn’t learned anything that Evan teaches. (If she had, she wouldn’t have wasted 30+ years in a series of relationships with men who made lousy boyfriends.)

           

          The advice that I pointed you toward (by Jeremy, Tom10 and Evan) will increase the number of women who are attracted to you. Much of Evan’s other advice will tell you which women you need to avoid. (The advice is usually directed toward women, but it applies equally to men.)

          Don’t worry about what advice women are learning. It’s generally irrelevant to your success.

  25. 85
    Nick

    Bye bye dark mirror.

  26. 86
    jeremy

    @Chance, end of thread 75.  You asked me why I call BS on the whole hypergamy issue.  Shaukat did a good job explaining what is wrong from an evo-psych perspective, but I think it boils down to something much simpler.  The theory states that women want a man who is “better than them.”  But better at what?

     

    Is it that women want a man who has higher societal status?  GWTF raised an excellent point that most women today marry sideways rather than up.  Is it that they want a man with more education?  Maybe, but although many women do want that, others don’t – so are only SOME women hypergamous?  Red pill would have us believe it is all!  Is it that they want men with more money?  Again same issue as with education.  The manosphere guys accuse women of “moving the goalposts”, but they are excellent themselves at this when it comes to nailing down what hypergamy actually means in their context.

     

    Whatever any individual man believes hypergamy applies to – education, money, status, whatever – he will find examples to confirm his bias and will ignore the examples that don’t.  That is lazy and leads to a distorted world-view.  There may be a kernel of truth (as I described above) that most women pick certain qualities they value and look for the best man they can get in terms of those qualities.  And, as GWTF rightly stated, men do the same thing.  The only difference is that women are far more likely to change the qualities they value than men, over the course of their lifetime.

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