Do I Give My Boyfriend A Mulligan For Flirting While Drunk?
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As I pointed out in a recent blog post, when it comes to basic things like kindness, self-awareness, and avoiding dispiriting embarrassment, alcohol is usually going to be the culprit. From there, your dilemma becomes as clear as answering these two questions:
- Is his drinking a problem that is indicative of a larger issue around alcohol, anger management or a loss of control?
- Was this isolated incident that seems like an aberration from all the rest of his behavior?
I can’t claim to know your new guy’s state of mind. I can tell you, however, that ALL of us have done things while inebriated that we come to regret. And while it’s easy to make the case that booze only lets you do the things you really want to do – and acts as a truth lamp for inhibited people – it also has a tendency to bring out the worst in people.
ALL of us have done things while inebriated that we come to regret.
If you’re emotional, you’ll start crying when you’re drunk.
If you’re depressed, you’ll be more depressed when you’re drunk.
And, finally, if you’re a flirt, you’re insatiable when you’re drunk.
Literally, the last time I had a fistfight – 15 years ago – I got beat up for flirting with a woman too aggressively. Did it matter that I had 8 vodka tonics in the previous hour? Not to the guy who was punching me in the face. But the next day, when I went to work with a sore jaw (and literally NO memory of what happened the night before), and I learned what I did at my friend’s party, I was consumed with regret for weeks. I beat myself up emotionally. I apologized to everyone involved in the event. I quit drinking for 3 months. I tried to do my penance for one embarrassing moment that I couldn’t take back.
So while there’s no defending the guy who drunkenly hit on other women on the very night he invited you to join him for New Years, it is entirely possible that his behavior was out of character and that, given the opportunity to redeem himself, he does just that.
Kudos to you for understanding when to give a guy a mulligan and for having the power to walk away from this situation if he ever pulls that crap again.
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55 Comments »Filed Under Dating
Ronnie Ann Ryan - The Dating Coach 1
While agree with Evan that you should get kudos for steppnig outside yourelf to look at your guy’s behavior, as a dating coach myself, I also want to suggest some parameters.
Should you give him a mulligan does depends on:
-If his drinking behavior was out of the ordinary
-If his flirting behvior was not his normal way
-If he’s needed muliagans for other dates or behaviors
-If you find yourself making excuses for him on a regular basis.
If your beau was just over the top once, and has never done this before – well a mulligan could be OK.
But if this becomes any sort of pattern, if you see him drink too much often, flirt with other women in your presence, or treat you in a manner undercutting your self esteem, think hard and long before you give him an easy pass on bad behavior. Once could happen to anyone. Twice and that’s a big red flag and worth strongly reconsidering his viability as a partner.
I believe in giving people a chance, absolutely. But I am a strong proponent for passing up a relationship early on that shows signs of lacking respect.
starthrower68 2
Evan is spot on with this one. Alcohol can make people very stupid if one over imbibes. He has at least taken the first step of expressing remorse, and I’m guessing he has also made attempts to repair the damage. What you now have to watch for is he putting action behind the apologies? If the same situation happens again, then you have a pattern of behavior on your hands and should probably think twice before moving forward. I would also say that boys stick together. They were being apologists for him, and his friends probably know him well. I would think they would have told you to bail if they didn’t genuinely wish the best for the two of you. Just my 2 cents’.
Robyn 3
Some one (Winston Churchill?) once said:
“The first time is happenstance, second time is coincidence, but a third time is enemy action”
Sounds like this was the “first time”, so a mulligan was the right way to go. But if he does it again (a less than savory behavior pattern emerges) then I would head for the door.
Cat 4
Ronnie Ann Ryan (#1): You’re basically rephrasing what Evan states at the end of the post. Basically, if the behavior is out of character and he redeems himself, keep him. If he does it again, walk away. Evan never said to keep a guy who repeatedly disrespects you…
Cat 5
Robin, #4: The quotation is this:
“Mr. Bond, they have a saying in Chicago: ‘Once is happenstance, Twice is coincidence, Three times is enemy action.’” (Auric Goldfinger to James Bond) Words by Ian Fleming. It’s also been attributed to Churchill, Julius Caesar and Star Trek Romulans. But it appears to have originated with Mr. Fleming.
I gave a guy a mulligan for that behavior. I think it had more to do with his ego than the alcohol (the alcohol gave him an excuse.) In my situation, none of the girls reciprocated his interest and in fact looked quite uncomfortable with his unwanted advances. (He was maybe a 6 in looks, if you want to put a number on it. Or a 5. He thought his British accent made him seem much more charming than he came across as.) I was in my 20′s so I didn’t dump him as soon as I should have. (Ironically, other guys were pursuing me through no effort on my part. He was desperate for more attention and couldn’t get it, and I was disinterested in other suitors but had no shortage of them. Isn’t that always the way of things?)
I hope that Natalie will check in and let us know what happened!
Selena 6
Let’s see: He invites you to a bar to meet his friends. He also invites a girl he met the week before. Right in front of you he strokes another woman’s back in a sexual way, while not giving you much in the way of attention while you’re there. If he’s that drunk why isn’t he stroking your back? Why isn’t he all over you? And when he notices you are upset he makes it your problem and becomes verbally abusive.
You’ve had your own problem with alcohol so you know how this kind of thing goes. How he behaved was the BIG RED FLAG Natalie. One you may have ignored before perhaps? I don’t think this behavior in a r’ship this new is mulligan worthy – you’ll likely see some kind of alcoholic repeat in the not too distant future.
Since it’s been 6 weeks since you wrote about this what has happened since?
Steve 7
Natalie, thanks for the new term. You learn something new every day.
From
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=mulligan
1.
mulligan
201 up, 15 down
buy mulligan mugs, tshirts and magnets
A Mulligan, in a game, happens when a player gets a second chance to perform a certain move or action; usually due to lack of skill or bitter luck. A “Do-Over”. Like getting an “Extra Play” in pinball due to sinking the ball before obtaining an arbitrary amount of points.
Goldie 8
If this was a one-time thing, then how did he meet that girl in a bar the week before? To me, that’s twice already.
Evan Marc Katz 9
The term, Steve, is my wife’s, from “Why He Disappeared”.
Zann 10
Whether Natalie gives him the heave-ho now or later, I’m pretty sure she WILL be giving him the heave-ho. There are not many things I have zero tolerance for, but the guy who is already drunk upon my arrival is one of them. And then he proceeds to humiliate me and twists it around so it’s my problem? I’m hung up, I’m a snob, I’m NO FUN? No thanks. And I know this is not exclusively a male problem, but to me it’s irrelevant if he’s sooooo sorry the next day — most people with a drinking problem are. Every time. But so what? The mulligan is something you reserve for when the decent man you’ve known for quite a while gets drunk at his brother’s wedding and acts like a dumb ass. For me, this guy’s behavior would not only be a red flag, it would be a giant neon green light signaling me to get outta Dodge. Do not pass Go. Lordy, I hope I’m wrong, but my gut feeling is that Natalie will be in this situation again with this guy. If so, hopefully she stays true to herself and doesn’t cave into his rationalizations, apologies, and other distortions of the real problem — his drinking problem.
Shay 11
Maybe she is mirror-ing him too well. He doesn’t know how she feels about him and just trying to blow her cover by making her jealous.
Steve 12
I was expecting “Mulligan” to refer to something immature, vicious and cruel. Something junior high boys might do.
NN 13
I am a stick in the mud since I don’t think drinking excuses anything. That is just his real character coming out from the social conditioning. I was raised in a family where both parents were alcoholics, and I never ever will accept behaviour like that.
Why would I want a man like that?
Who met an other woman a week ago, and now is all over her when he is drunk?
That is where his true interest lies, and our Natalie is just a sure thing whom he keeps while he tries to get the other girl.
Sure, his interests might change, if he falls for her… People do fall in love. But the real question for me is that would I want a man who drinks too much, and then blames me for his bad behaviour.
That is a pattern of behaviour people seldom grow out of.
Sorry, plenty of men under that rock where he slithered from.. but so there is “plenty of fish” online too.
As I don’t drink myself, or very seldom, and I know I don’t like drunks.. what do I need a drunk for? Since I lose respect for a person who can’t keep his act together. I don’t care for man’s potential.. I don’t see that it is my job to change him..
I either accept him as he is, or I don’t.. and in my books.. a man who drinks and then abuses me after he has wronged me – he is out. Even if he was really smoking hot, I have a thing called self esteem, and sense of self preservation.
Ruby 14
This guy is immature and abusive, and drinking is no excuse. He couldn’t even maintain good behavior for more than a month. He invites Natalie out, is already stinking drunk by the time she gets there, humiliates her by flirting with other girls in front of her, and then swears at her when she gets upset? Of course, abusers are always sorry after the fact. Natalie can give him another chance if she likes, but I’ll bet this isn’t an isolated incident. Plus, if she already has had a problem with alcohol, this man is an even worse prospect for her.
starthrower68 15
The more I think about this scenario, the more I think the harderline stance is more appropriate. I think that this has already broken bad.
Kat Wilder 16
Since he invited you to meet him and his friends, this was not a “date,” so I don’t have any problem that he was chatting and flirting with other women (she was chatting with others, too). It seemed like a casual get together.
And, you are dating for a month — not a very long time — with no mention about being exclusive or commitment or even that it’s a relationship. Right now, you are both learning about each other … and you’ve learned a lot.
A guy who gets that drunk is, well, someone to be very, very careful with.
Give him a mulligan? Sure, I believe in giving people the benefit of the doubt. But I would certainly explore his relationship with booze and any family alcoholism. From experience I know that if you partner with an alcoholic, it doesn’t get better.
Lance 17
His mistake is that he invited her to the gathering in the first place. It’s pretty obvious he’s social and there’s evidence he flirts with chicks outside of their relationship. This type of situation actually happens to me every so often in my relationships, because flirting is natural to me. I have to be careful not too get too drunk or else I’ll loose control.
My recommendation is that she do the EXACT SAME THING and flirt with a bunch of dudes next time they’re out and emasculate the guy. That should settle the score and they can move forward from there, provided the connection is worth salvaging.
Karl R 18
Natalie said: (original post)
“He then started to chat a girl right near me and rub her back (quite sexually)”
How does someone rub a back “quite sexually”? Anything I consider “quite sexual” would no longer be on the woman’s back. I suppose he could have run his hand up under the girl’s shirt, but that detail probably would have made it into Natalie’s letter.
My girlfriend and I are both involved in the dance community. Rubbing a friend’s/acquaintance’s back is rather normal behavior (off the dance floor). Neither of us feels “embarassed and humiliated” when we witness the other doing it.
NN said: (#13)
“Why would I want a man like that? Who met an other woman a week ago, and now is all over her when he is drunk?”
Based on Natalie’s description, it sounds like he was flirting with a woman he met a week ago, then later rubbing the back of a different woman he described as “an old friend.”
Zann said: (#10)
“There are not many things I have zero tolerance for, but the guy who is already drunk upon my arrival is one of them.”
There’s no mention of how long he was at the bar, with his friends, on or near New Years before she arrived.
I routinely get together with friends around New Years (at the house of one of them). In 2009, I had the day off and had been there for hours before my girlfriend joined me. If I was sober when my girlfriend arrived, it was because I had enough time to sober up.
Selena said: (#6)
“He invites you to a bar to meet his friends. He also invites a girl he met the week before.”
In my part of the country, bars aren’t invitation only. The girl might have showed up because she decided to go to the bar.
How do we know that the boyfriend hadn’t met the girl at that same bar a week before?
Goldie said: (#8)
“If this was a one-time thing, then how did he meet that girl in a bar the week before?”
In most healthy relationships, meeting new people when you go a bar is not considered a problem. I meet new people in bars so often I don’t necessarily remember them the next time I meet them (though I’ll usually still remember them one week later).
Ruby said: (#14)
“Natalie can give him another chance if she likes, but I’ll bet this isn’t an isolated incident.”
That’s a reasonably safe bet. I suspect that this guy behaves badly when he’s drunk, and that he gets drunk often enough for this behavior to be a recurring problem.
Of course, it’s also a safe bet that any date of mine doesn’t last past three months … because the vast majority of them don’t. Relationships don’t spring out of safe bets and likely outcomes.
I’m with Evan. If Natalie really likes the guy, take the chance that it was a one-time thing. If it’s not, she should dump him and move on.
Ruby 19
Kat Wilder #16
This may not have been a date in the technical sense, but the two have been dating, and this seemed like a chance to integrate his friends with hers. If her three girlfriends were all surprised, I don’t think she over-reacted.
I don’t know how old this guy is, but he sounds extremely immature. Sure, people get drunk, but they don’t necessarily get mean and swear at their new girlfriend just because they’ve been drinking. I still say, in such a new relationship, the guy should have been on better behavior. His friends said he was “showing off”? Yes, but not in a good way!
Jamie Beckman 20
Level of drunkenness aside, I think there are two very telling parts to how the guy behaved, both of which indicate this woman should run for the hills. 1. He called her “dramatic.” That’s good foreshadowing about how he’ll address her concerns in the future: by brushing her off and making her seem like the crazy one. 2.) He called her another name after that, which is pretty unacceptable, especially when you’ve just started dating someone. I’ll give the guy a pass for the drunkenness — it was New Year’s, after all — but the rest of the stuff is a big, flashing red light.
Selena 21
@Karl #18
“How do we know that the boyfriend hadn’t met the girl at the same bar the week before?”
Because in paragraph 3 Natalie writes her friend overheard the girl say she just met him last week at a bar down the road. That’s how.
Reading comprehension for the win.
Steve 22
Ruby 14
Plus, if she already has had a problem with alcohol, this man is an even worse prospect for her.
Good point, the last place a recovering alcoholic needs to be is with someone who is an alcoholic, but who isn’t recovering.
Karl R 23
Selena, (#21)
Good catch, but it doesn’t address the point. Nothing indicates that he invited her.
If there are a small number of popular bars in the area, they may have a considerable overlap in patrons.
As an alternative, for New Years he was getting together with “all of his friends”. I’m willing to bet that a subset of his friends are his regular drinking buddies who were with him at the other bar. Any one of them could have invited her (or more casually mentioned the get-together).
Is there some benefit to assuming his behavior was worse than the evidence indicates? To me, that sounds like a way to invite trouble into a relationship. Last night I worked late and had to miss my dance class, so my girlfriend went alone. Two of the other men in class asked her for her email. Should I assume that my girlfriend was acting inappropriately?
Selena 24
Karl,
Really I’m in complete agreement with Jamie Beckman’s post #20. It’s not as much as the level of drunkeness, or even the flirting that is troublesome as much as how this guy reacted to her and called her a name. It’s unacceptable and bodes very badly for a future relationship. She only dated the guy for a month, I just don’t see such a situation as mulligan-worthy.
But this letter is 6 weeks old; I’m more curious to hear from Natalie what she decided to do after this incident. Without the benefit of advice from Evan or any of us commenters.
Goldie 25
Um, Karl, the evidence is actually pretty bad (he was drunk off his arse? he chatted with pretty much every woman in the bar but the OP and her friends? he called her a dramatic what?!)
I tend to agree completely with Evan’s advice on this one. Give him the benefit of the doubt once, but if he ever does any of these things again, he’s bad news.
Oh, and, in my experience (outside of the dance community), each time a guy tried giving me a back rub, I found out later he’d meant business
Steve 26
These threads are almost like a legal workshop. The facilitator gives us a mostly complete story. People conjecture and interpolate. At the end, someties the original poster comes back and lets us know how far our reasoning was off.
Steve 27
Goldie 25
Oh, and, in my experience (outside of the dance community), each time a guy tried giving me a back rub, I found out later he’d meant business
How is that not obvious to anyone with a pulse?
Goldie 28
Steve #27, someone with a pulse and a wedding ring that gets a back rub from a coworker, might be understandably confused at first
especially if one tends to assume the best of people and underestimate their insanity 
starthrower68 29
@Lance #17, yeah nothing sets the stage for positive development in a budding relationship that a pissing match to see who can “out playa” who.
Diana 30
The back rub comment reminds me of the time when I was engaged and my fiance and I attended my cousin’s wedding. At the reception, he kept lightly stroking/rubbing my back and oh … my … gawd! Did I ever hear about this from my parents; dad, especially. You can just imagine their comments.
As for Natalie’s situation, if she really likes the guy, I’d say give him a second chance. But despite excusing or explaining or trying to understand his behavior, I doubt he looks the same to her anymore. He also planted a seed of doubt about his future behavior. I think he lacks maturity and used poor judgment; not that we haven’t all made mistakes. I’ve never been drunk or been with a drunk, so I can’t say too much on this one.
Gem 31
His behavior is evidence of things to come and I’d cut him loose.
starthrower68 32
Gem, I tend to agree with you; the best indicator of the future is the past. Obviously Natalie is a grown girl who can do what she wants. However, tolerating disprect is a bad precedent to set. Nobody’s overreacting. But again, if you feel like giving him a mulligan, give him a mulligan. Just do so with your eyes wide open.
Lance 33
@starthrower #29, I’m a big proponent of punishing a relationship/dating indiscretion with a similar act. Why? Because it truly gets the point across and let’s the other person know *exactly* how you felt. That will in turn condition the partner to not do it again. Because guess what…just talking about and taking the high road never works.
Gem 34
Lance,
I disagree. An adult should have enough perspective to relaize when their behavior was bad/direspectful/rude without having to have it *done* to them. Maybe not in the moment when alcohol is involved, but soon after when the head’s clear.
We all screw up sometimes but having it brought to out attentions with a mature conversation should be enough. Having to have it shoved in our faces with someone doing the same thing and then saying, “there! See how it feels?!” to me, is adding more immaturity, and negativity to the situation.
I understand it works for you, but if I had a boyfriend do that to me when I upset him, instead of just calling me on whatever I did verbally, I’d be gone. The tit-for-tat idea can quicly turn into one-upping and distrust and disrespect will take over faster than wildfire, imo.
I have enough empathy to be able to understand how someone felt by my actions when they tell me without having to experience it as the victim and I’d want a partner able to do the same.
Barb 35
WALK AWAY………. This is when a man is on his best behavior- in the beginning. He’s immature and this is a taste of things to come. ACTIONS SPEAK LOUD. There are better men out there. THIS ONE IS DEFINITELY A FIXER-UPPER.
Annie 36
This is a weird one.
I have a very close friend, who dated a guy that whenever he got drunk, he was actually quite horrible. He would call her a bitch, say she was a nag and be very very mean.
She tolerated it, and put it down to drunk behaviour. I said to her, you should never tolerate that crap from a guy, he will just get worse. I was wrong.
Here’s the interesting part. She accepted it, and told him about what he said to her the night before. She didn’t judge, she just said “You called me a bitch last night, and a “ho’ and you were really drunk”.
Eventually, she clued into the fact that he only got that way drinking spirits. So she asked him, if he wanted to drink could he stick with beer. He began drinking only beer.
Long story sort, they have been married for 15 years, They even fought a horrendous battle together to win custody of his children(from another relationship) which is a real test of any relationship.
And everytime I hear her say anything about her husband, he is her stud. That’s her name for him. “I love my stud, look at my man enjoying the pho I bought for him!!.
I think women can be very afraid of male behaviours and react immediately to what they percieve as a threat to themselves. To this day, I cannot figure out how she knew he’d make a good husband. They are very happy, she loves him, and he loves her.
I don’t know what I’d put up with, I do know however that I can’t create some kind of litmis test for a relationship. You can’t be scared of everything. In many way’s , you have to trust yourself, and your ability to love a man. You can’t change him, but if you accept him, he will try, it seems he just needs sometimes an incentive to do so.
Annie 37
@33
This will never work.
My friend I mentioned above, showed me this.
We all went away for a weekend(group of friends). Kids were there, so we ended up picking nights we’d go out so some of us could stay back with the children. My friend and I went out and didn’t leave the bar till around 3 am. When i suggested a cab she said no, I’ll call my stud. She called him, he said hell no he wasn’t getting out of bed, and we caught a cab.
The VERY next night, he went out with his friends, and called, at around 3 am. She agreed to pick him up. I said “girl, he didn’t pick YOU up, why you picking HIM up? The only way you’ll teach him resepct, is to stand up to him.”
She quickly responded “I don’t play games”. I did not get it.
She doesn’t play games. She, at that moment, was willing to pick him up. The night before, at that moment, he was not willing to pick her up. She doesn’t keep score.
This attitude of course, enables her to say NO to her guy whenever she wishes, and he could say NO to her whenever he wishes. Amazingly, most of the time they say YES to each other.
Don’t play games, do what you can to love your partner but dont’ do anything because you want something in return. Do it willingly, or dont’ do it at all.
I learnt this from her.
Paul 38
I have to give you props for “going with the flow” at first but ultimately it is unacceptable for anyone to behave like this. After being married for over 10 years I can truly say that the love of your life would not do something like this. Dating can be stressful enough so the added pressure of having your date hit on others is not needed.
good luck with your future dating!
BeenThereDoneThat 39
My dating/relationship philosophy is and always has been to not do something if i wouldn’t like my partner to engage in the same behavior. Kind of inverse from Lance’s stance.
I would probably bail on this if I were Natalie. I just don’t believe in name calling; drunk or not.
Sarahrahrah! 40
@Karl R. #18
Really, Karl? You’ve never experienced ”quite sexually” arousing back massages that stayed within the back zone? I’ve got a big secret for you: massages are very stimulating *for women.* While I can’t speak for all women, I can tell you that I will judge a man’s sexual potential by the massages he gives. Just in case you don’t see the analogy, a massage is a muscular, steady, rhythmic movement — does that remind *you* of anything besides dancing? ;-)
IF I saw my boyfriend giving another woman a back massage and he wasn’t a massage therapist, we’d be done.
Karl R 41
Sarahrahrah! asked: (#40)
“You’ve never experienced ’quite sexually’ arousing back massages that stayed within the back zone?”
You mean with the shirt off, massage oil, candlelight … the sorts of things that almost certainly weren’t happening in a crowded bar?
Sarahrahrah! said: (#40)
“I’ve got a big secret for you: massages are very stimulating *for women.*”
So a cute guy gives you a muscular, steady, rhythmic massage, and you find it sexually arousing.
When a middle-aged, homely, female professional massage therapist gives you the exact same massage, do you become sexually aroused?
Unless you answered “Yes,” I would say that it’s not the backrub that’s sexual. It’s your choice of how you perceive the experience.
Sarahrahrah! said: (#40)
“IF I saw my boyfriend giving another woman a back massage and he wasn’t a massage therapist, we’d be done.”
For obvious reasons, I don’t date anyone who is that jealous and possessive.
I agree with BeenThereDoneThat’s philosophy (#39). If it would bother me to see my girlfriend give a guy a backrub (or be given a backrub) or otherwise rub a man’s back, then I wouldn’t do it.
jrd 42
Annie @ #36 & #37, though I must admit that I would not have stayed with a man that acted the way your friend’s future husband did, I am impressed with her philosophy of neither playing games nor keeping score.
SJZ 43
Run girl run! I was married to an abusive man for 21 years. Any man who will call you names and tell you that you are dramatic when you express concern over his actions is trouble! This is only the first or second month you have been dating him! I shudder to wonder what he will do next drunk or not! Drinking does NOT excuse ANY bad behavior. If this is the way he is trying to impress you, it is NOT working. Find a man who can impress you with his maturity and not his immaturity! By the way Evan, calling your wife fat while she is pregnant is funny for awhile but, in the end it can get real old real fast!
Gem 44
Karl,
I know you don’t get it, but yes, one CAN rub another’s back “quite sexually.” It is not just the receiver perceiving it as such, either.
There is also *intent* All kinds of unspoken body language can go along with a back-rub that make it obvious to the receiver and those watching that sexual intent is involved. Since the OP said he was flirting it up with everyone, I’m sure there were flirtatious gestures included in that back rub to make it obvious it was not simply two body parts meeting like that of a paid massage therapist.
There are subtlties and nuances to human behavior that communicate intent. A woman usually KNOWS when she is being touched with a brotherly affection verses sexual intent. I appreciate you are playing devil’s advocate, but give the girl some credit, she was there.
Christie Hartman 45
I’m with Selena and Jamie on this one. NO MULLIGAN! Not for this guy. Yes, you should be on the lookout for red flags, and yes, not all of them turn out bad and sometimes you have to see what happens. But drunk + chicks + massage + flirting + calling her dramatic + calling her some other name = JERK. Alcohol only brings out who we really are deep down. Not a chance should you trust this guy. Walk away, woman!
Selena 46
That’s the thing Christie, there was alot more to this incident than just “flirting while drunk” as it has been trivialized.
Karl R 47
Gem said: (#44)
“the OP said he was flirting it up with everyone,”
Evan has previously said that he is a flirt. I’m a flirt. My girlfriend is a flirt. We exhibit this flirtatious behavior even with people we’re not interested in having a relationship with (or even sex with).
Gem said: (#44)
“There is also *intent*”
“I’m sure there were flirtatious gestures included in that back rub to make it obvious”
I can watch my girlfriend talk to men whom I know she turned down multiple times when she was single, and I can see why they would have thought (and still might think) that she was interested in them.
Similarly, I’ve had numerous people get confused regarding which woman is my girlfriend when we’re out at one of our normal dancing hangouts. I might chat with, flirt with, dance with, hug or otherwise have some physical contact with a couple dozen women. The one I passionately kiss is my girlfriend.
Short of reading the man’s mind, how do you know his intent?
Natalie said: (original post)
“He then started to chat a girl right near me and rub her back (quite sexually)”
Why is everyone convinced this was a back-rub/massage?
If I’m chatting with a woman -and- rubbing her back, I’m standing beside her (where I can hear her and make eye contact), my forearm is across her back, and my hand is moving up and down a few inches (or back and forth a few inches).
And having given/received more back-rubs in bars than I can conveniently count (probably because I don’t expect sex to be part of the exchange), I can point out a few of the logistical issues. Typically both people are seated, one behind the other. That’s not conducive to chatting in a noisy environment. If both people are standing, then Newtonian physics become an issue: I apply pressure to the other person’s back, they take a step forward, and I take a step back. If I’m giving a backrub to someone who is standing, I’ll have one forearm across the person’s collarbones so I can counter the pressure I’m applying to his/her back. Since balance is an issue, I wouldn’t try to give a standing back-rub while drunk.
Steve said: (#26)
“These threads are almost like a legal workshop. The facilitator gives us a mostly complete story. People conjecture and interpolate.”
And the phrase: “Objection. Assuming facts not in evidence,” keeps coming to my mind.
We already know this man behaved like a jerk in this instance. We don’t have assume things that might or might not be true.
Evan’s initial advice holds true. Natalie can give the guy one mulligan if she wants to. If she doesn’t want to, it’s a moot point. If he blows it again, he’s established a pattern of behavior.
Selena 48
Karl,
Natalie asks, “Do I give him a Mulligan??? Or is this unacceptable???”
Ofcourse she can give him one if she wants too. But some of us believe it is unacceptable. That’s what comes from having a comment section – if someone asks questions they will get opinions besides EMK’s.
Selena 49
Oh, and whatever anyone has to say, including you Karl, is moot anyway. Six weeks have passed, Natalie already resolved the situation one way or another without any input from this blog.
Gem 50
“We already know this man behaved like a jerk in this instance.”
In what way do you think this man behaved like a jerk?
You’ve defended flirtatious behavior because it doesn’t necessarily mean the flirt wants to take it farther. Therefore, without reading this guy’s mind, the OP cannot KNOW if he had any nefarious intent.
You’ve also said his infamous back-rub may have been completely innocent like when you touch a dance partner and just because it LOOKED sexy and flirtatious to the OP, it doesn’t mean he meant it that way.
“We don’t have assume things that might or might not be true.”
Apparently, we do, because as you say, “Short of reading the man’s mind, how do you know his intent?”
And therfore, you make it sound like while his behavior made the OP uncomfortable, it may be her assumptions and over-reactions to his drunk, but completely innocent behavior.
It doesn’t matter that the dude probably had no intention of going home and nailing another woman, what he did in front of her eyes was disrespectful enough. The OP doesn’t need to be a mind reader to know that he DID flirt and behave suggestively to other women and he DID make himself look untrustworthy.
Sayanta 51
Annie-
#36, that’s a very interesting story- I have to say that kind of behavior would literally have scared me off- I’m not even talking respect issues anymore, but actual fear. So- it’s pretty amazing that he’s turned out to be the way he is. I don’t think that this is the norm by any means, though.
Karl R 52
Gem asked: (#50)
“In what way do you think this man behaved like a jerk?”
Natalie said: (original post)
“I simply said it wasn’t cool, I didn’t understand why I was there and especially when I brought my friends to meet him. Let’s just say he called me ‘dramatic’ and then another not very nice word through slurring.”
Given human nature, I’d say that it’s extremely likely that the boyfriend called Natalies a “dramatic [not very nice word]“, and he said it in public. And that behavior made him a jerk (and potentially crossed the line into verbal abuse) …
… even if she was being dramatic.
… even if she was being uptight.
… even though he was drunk.
… even if she had said something equally inappropriate immediately preceding his statement.
If your partner is upset, you should immediately defuse the situation, then discuss the situation later, in private, when everyone is calmer and sober.
Gem asked: (#50)
“you make it sound like while his behavior made the OP uncomfortable, it may be her assumptions and over-reactions to his drunk, but completely innocent behavior.”
Which is entirely possible. And if that is the case, I would feel that he would be completely justified in dumping Natalie for that reason. But he wasn’t justified in saying what he said.
Selena said: (#49)
“and whatever anyone has to say, including you Karl, is moot anyway. Six weeks have passed,”
This may still be relevant and current to Natalie. She may have decided to give her boyfriend a mulligan six weeks ago. How often does he get drunk? If he gets drunk again and behaves badly, then people have been perfectly clear that she should immediately dump him. He shouldn’t get a second mulligan.
That could still be a future event.
Selena said: (#48)
“some of us believe it is unacceptable.”
Having that belief is fine … unless it gets in the way of finding a relationship.
A lot of women on this blog are drawn to the charismatic men with whom they have chemistry. If you study that group of men carefully, I supsect that you’ll discover that most of them are very good (and frequent) flirts.
What happens to a woman’s love life if she’s initially drawn to the same behavior that she finds unacceptable one month later?
Goldie 53
I still cannot get my head around Annie’s comment #36.
“I don’t know what I’d put up with, I do know however that I can’t create some kind of litmis test for a relationship. You can’t be scared of everything.”
I see it a little differently. To me, it’s not as much being scared as being practical. I have to ask myself, at the end of my day after work, would I rather come to an empty home, or would I rather come home to a man that may call me a bitch if he’s drunk? In my case, I’ve been called that in the past, so I know from experience that I dislike it A LOT, so for myself, I’d probably go with the empty home. It’s more enjoyable, to me.
Also, in my particular case, I’ve got to ask myself this as well – do I want my children coming home to a random (to them) guy that calls their mother a bitch when he’s drunk? Um, NO. It’s logic. No assumptions, no projections, just logical reasoning.
Agree with the next comment about the not keeping score part, though. Lance, I really enjoy reading your comments, but your suggestion in #17 is pretty PA. And I don’t take PA very well. If something I did made my partner feel bad, he should just say so.
Annie 54
@51 and 53.
I will admit, her behaviour really did confuse me for a while, and I couldn’t understand how she put up with it. Bottom line was though, she was absolutely right. When he was sober, he was completely lovely and a very funny guy. When he drank beer, he was just a big goof-ball. When he drank spirits, he was Dr Hyde..
I will never completely understand my friend, but she makes the best out of every situation. I might go to the bank with her, and there’s a line for at least 30 minutues. By the end of it, she will know everyone’s names in the line, she will have everyone rolling around in stiches,a few phone numbers will have been swapped and one time(if you can believe it), she got a pile of dour faced adults in a bankline, to join in a sing-a-long of row-row your boat.
Honestly, she was zany and full of life and one of the most amazing people. I probably wouldn’t have taken her approach with his drinking either, but I learnt so much for her extrodinary capacity to accept everyone for who they were, and still keep herself safe from any kind of harm.
She definately taught me, that you just can’t keep score, and you must be able to accept everything about some-one else to be with them, but you can still have the self-confidence to ask for what you want or need from some-one(IE start drinking beer instead of spirits) and believe that you are worthy of a response.
Lilly 55
First off, when do we give mulligans and what is appropriate? Evan says that men like women who say YES to them, but at the same time they want nice girls with boundaries? I keep saying yes, but I feel like a doormat. If I set boundaries, I seem to be saying NO to them.
I give mulligans, but it seems that men are getting away with bad behaviors and they lose respect for you. He only meets me on the weekend, Ive met his friends, weve slept together as Ive said yes to him, he offers things and I say yes, I am nice, I try to not be unreasonable….but it seems that he is still keeping me at arms length. Its only been 2 months.
He still has his online dating profile up? DO I give him a mulligan or not? He only texts me once a week and thats to set up a weekend date? Do I give him a mulligan or not?
Evan says men fall in love with women who dont resist them, so I keep saying yes to the date, I say yes, yes, yes, YES, YES! But I dont get what I want. Do I walk away?! I try to be forgiving, reasonable, empathetic, but it seems that I am still the ‘weekend girl’.
He just asked for another date and finally I said NO. I find that if you give men what they want TOO early, they lose respect. I cant keep saying YES…when in reality I am becoming the easy girl and men dont want easy girls. They want to chase you!
Everything is contradictory. Do this, DO that, I think I am not going to do anything anymore. I say yes in hopes that he will be more committed, but it seems that I am only letting poor behavior slide. When I forgive and give mulligans, it seems that he thinks its acceptable.
Aghhhh….I am just going to avoid him now. I am not going to say YES anymore. I am going to say nothing.