Do Men Fall in Love with Women After One Date?
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Evan,
I have been a fan of yours for years and have purchased many of your programs/books. I also am an avid reader of your blog and have enjoyed reading about your growth over time. Congrats on the soon to be new addition to your family! Thanks to you I do reasonably well in my dating life but recently was shocked over a conversation I had…
I met a man online and we had a nice date. He is an alpha male who seemed to still be emotionally involved with his ex so there were many red flags that had popped up for me. After talking for a few weeks after the date, he said he was concentrating on growing his business and while I was a charming woman he would like to get to know more, he didn’t feel he had time for a relationship right now. I was fine with that considering the warning bells that were going off. We remained friends and would text occasionally over the next couple of months.
We had lunch a few times. I had been looking at this as a friendship and then, yes you guessed it, he informed me I was invited over any time to have dinner and fornication. I told him I do not make a habit out of sleeping with my friends and politely declined.
A week or so later he told me he had met someone and that it felt “obvious.” I congratulated him and didn’t talk to him for 3 or so weeks. Turns out she was totally unavailable and things did not work out as he had planned. His response is what has me puzzled. He said, “Life is odd and hard to explain sometimes, but you get different vibes with different people. A small few I get a friend vibe with. A much much, much, much smaller group I get the I also trust them and would love to have sex with them! (your group, currently 1 member). Then there is the ‘I want to seriously date or partner up’ vibe. I think I felt that only twice while single, only once really strong – and that was the recent debacle that now has me jaded!”
This conversation took place a month ago and I am still pondering it in my mind. I have no desire to take things any further with him than friendship – that isn’t the problem. I have never immediately gotten an “I want to seriously date or partner up” vibe in my life! Not even with my ex-husband! Is it really that simple for men? Is their decision made after one date? I always agreed with you on the “men look for sex and find love” theory. I have almost decided this guy just trying to get me to have sex with him until someone he feels is better comes along. What do you think? –Cheryl
Cheryl,
While you (or he) might feel “in love”, these are merely feelings – feelings that correlate with a flooding of hormones in your brain – dopamine, serotonin, oxytocin, testosterone, etc.
Most people are unreliable reporters of reality.
We know what we feel – and then when life smacks us in the face because our feelings don’t square with reality – we experience confusion and cognitive dissonance.
A perfect example comes from Lori Gottlieb’s excellent book, “Marry Him”. When she first met my fiancé, Lori writes, “His fiancé was cute but not gorgeous. She was 39 years old and looked her age. She wasn’t impressively accomplished. She didn’t disarm people with a rapier wit. She wouldn’t stand out in any way at a dinner party. She was, objectively, rather average. And Evan was madly in love.”
Lori thought I was supposed to be with a 29-year-old, thin, Jewish, liberal, intellectual property attorney who also wrote for the Huffington Post. Someone like Lori herself – only 10 years younger. How I could have chosen my wife was a source of consternation to this bright and talented author.
“What am I missing here? Why would a guy like that choose her?”
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75 Comments »Filed Under Dating
Gina 1
I like that answer! The truth is some people don’t mature emotionally and understand that there is much more to a successful union than looks and flirtation. Of course you need an attraction to someone, but as you mature, you become more attracted to what really matters, rather than shallow, superficial things that don’t add to a solid foundation of a relationship.
Heather 2
I too, like that answer.
I’ve met some guys who similar things to that, one guy told me that he was looking for “the exception to the rule” and was hoping that I would be it. He was really good at saying the right things and acting like he was smitten before the first date, which did raise a flag for me. And sure enough, we went on one date that ended in disaster.
I’m very wary of guys who say things like this fellow said to the OP, very early on. To me it smells like either desperation, immaturity, or game-playing and I’m just wondering which of the three, if not a combination of all the three, that guy is.
I agree with EMK, let him go and maybe one day he’ll grow up. Or not. But the OP deserves better than that.
Daphne 3
As a woman, I find it difficult to understand the attitude of: “I’d like to have sex with you until someone better comes along”. But thanks EMK for reminding readers that many men (I gather) are perfectly capable of wanting a sex partner they will never fall in love with.
Evan Marc Katz 4
@Daphne – If you understand that, you understand EVERYTHING. MOST men operate that way. Better to have sex with someone than no one, even if that person is temporary.
Ruby 5
Interestingly enough, most of the coupled people I know, including the men, have said that they HAD to consider other things besides chemistry in order to have a successful, lasting relationship. For example, I once had a man tell me that he would never marry his girlfriend, and guess what? A couple of years later, they were married, and now have a child. Why? Because he saw that she loved him, and that she was kind, responsible, and easy to get along with. Yes, he was attracted to her, but he had to look at other things besides chemistry, and he realized that he loved her too. Another man told a friend that he made a decision to make compatibility more important than chemistry, and is now happily married to a woman that he initially wasn’t sure about.
Like EMK did, I believe that the men who really are serious about finding someone, and are not players or commitment-phobes, realize this.
Heather #2
“To me it smells like either desperation, immaturity, or game-playing…” Yes, exactly.
LC 6
Unfortunately, most men operate as if women are simply disposal sperm toilets. It’s just sickening and heartless, because they are very selfish and only thinking of their own needs. Most people stupidly chase chemistry failing to realize that real love takes time to develop and is a promise to act in a loving manner and have a loving attitude towards the person you say that you love. Then they are shocked when the chemicals wear off, and they’ve been involved with someone who lacks character, empathy, honor and loyalty. Duh.
Liz 7
@LC that is depressing. I think both sexes can get carried away, in different regards. After four dates, it’s hard for me not to start plotting in my little girlie mind, about trips I would want to take with someone, waking up next to them, reading the newspaper and going to coffee, or stuff like…would our dogs get along? That is my femininity, and the fact I believe all women inherently want relationships that are long term in the end. For the man, they thrive after the chase, and chemistry, and as Evan says they “look for sex, then find love.” We can’t be hard on them, like they should not be hard on us. Its learning to delicately engaged, while recognizing these differences. I don’t think the majoriyt of men operate as sperm toilets. Yikes!!!!
Heather 8
@ Ruby,
Bingo. That’s very true. When I met my now boyfriend, at first I thought, oh man, I’m not sure. He’s got a shaved head and that picture makes him look really kinda creepy. But he had another picture with a pet greyhound, and looked very sweet, and I loved his profile. So I gave him a chance. I wasn’t too sure about it but something told me to at least see what happens.
And almost nine months later, here we are. There is chemistry and there’s compatibility. He’s been my rock through the worst year of my life, and still hangs in there. We help each other in good and bad times and we’re a team.
Will it be forever? Who knows. But I do know that giving him a chance was very worth it. He was very adamant on our first date that he wanted to date me, which did scare me a wee little bit and I thought oh no, please tell me he’s not desperate. Luckily it was just nerves talking, and I realized what was going on.
But most other guys once they start talking the “r word” after one date, I dunno about that, it’s just scary. I’m usually ready to go, “check please!”
Mia 9
This is my biggest frustration with dating. Many men seem to have to experience an instant thunderbolt, with no regard to whether the woman is kind, has her life together, they can be themselves around each other, they have the same values, etc. Aside from Evan, I can’t really think of many men who speak of finding a mate in a rational, measured way, and giving people a chance even when there’s no major initial spark. I’m trying to be more understanding of this because, after all, men, rightly or wrongly, feel that they bear a greater sacrifice to keep dating someone – largely because they’re the ones paying in the beginning, and even into marriage, divorce is more costly for them in terms of losing money and the kids. But it would be nice to meet more men who think the way I and many women think, which is, Hey, this person and I get along, we have a connection because we can talk about a lot of things and be ourselves, we’re attracted enough to want to have sex, and the person treats me well – what more is there to ask for or expect?
SalsaQ 10
Very well said, Mia! That last sentence says it all.
Henriette 11
I’ve seen pictures of your wife, Evan, and read some of her writing here. Sorry, Ms. Gottlieb: she’s anything but average.
I do agree with @Mia. I find that men, no matter their age, tend to want “the fairy tale”: the male version thereof. That is: She was hot/cute/looked like my mom and I felt the thunderbolt the moment our eyes met. Although she asked about my income, job prospects, future inheritance on our second date, I’m sure she felt the immediate thunderbolt from the start, too. Some think she’s crazy, stupid, selfish and that it’s a bad sign she has no female friends but my gut (aka my willy) tells me that she’s just spirited, smart in ways that others don’t appreciate, values herself and other women are simply jealous of her. Then, many wake up 10 years later wondering why they’re married to women they don’t like, have nothing in common with and who spend their money like it’s water.
When I was younger and hotter, many a man had the Thunderbolt for me. As flattering as it was, I steered clear of anyone who seemed besotted by me after the first date. In retrospect, maybe I should have given them a chance but it just felt weird and desperate when someone who’d only spent a few hours with me felt such a strong connection to me. Slow and steady wins my heart.
Tom 12
Great answer Evan and I second what Henriette says about your wife
Mia,
“men, rightly or wrongly, feel that they bear a greater sacrifice to keep dating someone”
You’re correct here Mia, although for the wrong reason. The biggest sacrifice men (well the ones with options anyway) make when entering an exclusive relationship is his free-agent penis, not money. We have to forfeit the potential to sleep with strangers / models / twins etc. As women don’t get the same joy from sleeping with strangers (as confirmed by posters on this blog) their sacrifice is smaller in this regard.
I think your point regarding men waiting for the “instant thunderbolt” is valid though, and I acknowledge how this must be frustrating for women.
Karmic Equation 13
@Mia 9
But it would be nice to meet more men who think the way I and many women think, which is, Hey, this person and I get along, we have a connection because we can talk about a lot of things and be ourselves, we’re attracted enough to want to have sex, and the person treats me well – what more is there to ask for or expect?
Mia, if you haven’t already, you really should buy Evan’s book. If you want men to change, you will be continually frustrated ’til the day you die.
And really why should men have to change? Why can’t us women adapt to their way of living? Because we think we’re “right” and they’re wrong and that sets up a bad dynamic to start. If the dynamic isn’t working, if you can’t adapt or cope, then you should leave. The man changing should not be an option you work for, as you’ll likely start nagging or being needy to get this to happen and he’ll leave. Don’t give him that power. You leave first.
I read a lot of blogs because I like reading about how men’s minds work and about relationship dynamics. Some really good stuff out there.
The WWNH blogger has a very archaic manner of writing and a bible-thumping quality to his posts. However, if you can get past that, a lot of his posts make intrinsic sense. I think you might find his blog series on “Do women know jack about Jack?” something that might give you some insight: http://wwnh.wordpress.com/2007/12/08/8-do-women-know-this-about-men/
I don’t think you’ll be less frustrated, but at least you’ll have more knowledge.
Fusee 14
@Mia #9: “But it would be nice to meet more men who think the way I and many women think, which is, Hey, this person and I get along, we have a connection because we can talk about a lot of things and be ourselves, we’re attracted enough to want to have sex, and the person treats me well – what more is there to ask for or expect?”
Oh yes! I totally agree with you. However I believe that it’s a people issue more than a gender issue. And it’s especially true in this Hollywood-brainwashed culture. Reasonable women are frustrated at chemistry-chasing men and reasonable men are frustrated at chemistry-chasing women. And of course they keep attracting one another like crazy…
But as Ruby wrote @5, some men (exactly like some women) are naturally able (or end up training themselves and become able) to let go of their addiction to chemistry and instead decide to allow a relationship to grow independently of “chemical highs”, “lightbulb moments”, and other “thunderbolt experiences”.
I’ve never had this requirement of “instant chemistry” since my first serious relationships stemmed from long-term acquaintances/friendships, but I’ve been the victim of the “sudden chemistry phenomenon” when I unwillingly experienced it with another man later in my twenties. I unfortunately took it at face value and pursue a dead-end relationship. I learned my lesson! For me it was a bad experience, therefore I have a hard time to understand the mindset of requiring this instant feeling to inform such an delicate process, but so it is.
Even my awesome (and otherwise reasonable) boyfriend has been a victim of it. Not only of believing in chemistry in the past, but also of having the unrealistic expectation of getting at some point an *unequivocal knowledge* about our future. Like if there would be a lightbulb moment where the Universe would speak to him and he would just *know*. It’s been hard for him to challenge these unrealistic expectations and face less sexy but perfectly normal human doubts instead… (and I must add that it’s been hard on me as well to accompagny him while he is going through all of this…).
The best approach is focusing on people “who got it” through their own experience or by educating themselves, or who are close to get it, and letting go FAST of those would do not.
Mia 15
Tom, I understand what you mean about the free agent penis, and I likewise, at times, feel hesitant to sacrifice the ability to have casual sex and exciting flings with certain types of men I have strong attraction to but are not the best relationship fit (masculine, tall Asian drug dealers, blue collar Midwesterm men who shoot and fish, powerful men over 40, world traveling free spirits on motorcycles). But then I just remind myself how icky I feel when I have too many casual/short-term encounters and get over it. I assume there are many men out there who are able to get over it, too. However, it just seems that even many relationship-minded men are quite driven by chemistry and perfect timing, and my pleas to guy friends (as well as some female friends locked in a similar mindset) fall on deaf ears. Knowing that this is how so much of the dating population operates makes me realize that (assuming one is at least moderately attractive and not acting weird or desperate on dates) a lot of times it means nothing if a guy is into you and nothing if he isn’t, he’s just going off a gut feeling that has no basis on anything substantial.
Ruby 16
Mia #9
The men I’m speaking of were all older, at least 40, and had already been married and divorced, although I know younger men who felt that way too. The older ones had been around the block a few times, and weren’t interested in getting divorced again. I dated a man who was in his fifties, very attractive, but never married. I wondered why, until he told me that he was still expecting to be gobsmacked by chemistry. He also had a history of picking women he had chemistry with, but wasn’t compatible with, yet somehow, couldn’t quite make the connection. It made me wonder if he was truly as interested in commitment as he claimed.
SalsaQ 17
@Karmic13
What Mia said that struck a chord with me was that the key to a successful relationship is
this person and I get along, we have a connection because we can talk about a lot of things and be ourselves, we’re attracted enough to want to have sex, and the person treats me well –
Jane 18
I just gotta say that I don’t get Lori’s assessment of your wife nor yours when you talk about the ways she was not what you were seeking. I cannot speak to her personality (other than comment on her evident patience lol.) I have seen a picture of her and she did not strike me AT ALL as average, or looking her age, or not gorgeous or not one others would notice at a dinner party. Maybe it is because I live in the Pacific Northwest where women are notably less glamorous when compared to Los Angeles standards. I thought she was a beauty with a body I’ll bet men notice readily and a smile that was worth 1000 watts. Don’t tell me she didn’t turn heads!!
Daphne 19
Thank you EMK for the clarification ! I actually recall a guy I’ve dated who I clearly could have gone to bed with, but didn’t because he clearly didn’t truly want an LTR. I think I’d have sort of felt that it wouldn’t be worth it- icky as Mia 15 says.
I guess a lot of guys would not see this as “icky”.
Still-Looking 20
Quite a few good comments. To tie a few thoughts together:
1. Until a man is motivated, for whatever reason, to be in an exclusive relationship;
2. He will continue to search for that “perfect” woman – the one he has extreme chemistry with; and
3. This is reasonable in his view because to “settle” for someone he is compatible with is not an appealing option because he is not on a quest for a relationship and a relationship also has the downside of cutting off casual sex.
Car salesman and real estate agents know how to figure out who is seriously in the market for a car or a house. After dating for a while I think most of us have also picked up on the traits that signify which dates are truly looking for a relationship and who is just serial dating for fun.
Joe 21
@ LC: broad brush, much?
Lucy 22
I know plenty of men who need that instant chemistry and they don’t seem to mind the emotional pitfalls some women have. There are men who treat emotional intimacy in a similar way to how they treat sex. One of my male friends doesn’t love his girlfriend so much any more. He keeps asking out other women and he won’t finish with her until another woman says yes to him. Being aware of this tendency in some men, makes me want to reinforce my boundaries even more. So chemistry is a lie. I doubt he likes the other women as much as he thinks he does, and is only reacting to how unhappy he is in his current relationship. I guess in that situation you have to really take a good look at yourself and evaluate where your feelings of chemistry come from.
I don’t necessarily seek chemistry any more. I only see it as a feeling of being on the same wavelength as someone in terms of values and character. I’m not overly picky and I find many men physically attractive so I haven’t (at least so far) fallen into the trap of rating initial impressions too highly. When you think about how important chemistry is, you might fall into that trap of looking for that perfect feeling and not realise that you’re not dealing with reality, but actually with your own illusions. If you keep looking for the next best thing, then you’ll never be happy because you’ll never be living in the moment.
Angie 23
Duh, this is what men think! I think women have gut reactions to people as well. I certainly have. What I find strange is that he OPENED HIS MOUTH AND THESE WORDS CAME OUT.
I think it’s great that this man is comfortable expressing himself, but a little weirded out by the fact that he doesn’t know how to edit himself. I don’t know what he actually said to that woman, but I would need at least a month or two of dating before confirming the relationship. Meeting someone and going from strangers to their girlfriend in a matter of three weeks is fast, even if you both obviously like eachother and aren’t interested in meeting anyone else.
SS 24
I don’t think men fall in love after one date (some do, certainly), but I think they have to feel something before deciding to go out on a second date. Men seem much less likely than women to go on a second date if the first date was just “okay.” I know my husband will say that he didn’t fall in love with me on the first date (and the feeling was mutual), but he really enjoyed himself and found me attractive, so he wanted to go out again. If there hadn’t been “something” there on that first date, there probably wouldn’t have been a second.
That being said, the guy has to be in the right mental place too. I heard constantly that I was LTR/wife material from various guys, but because they were recently divorced or never-married but still playing the field, busy at work, etc., they never moved our interactions forward. This used to bother me to no end, because I know a lot of women will try to find a way to make it work if they feel that strongly about a man. But I had to realize that if the timing wasn’t right for a man, I could be Miss Perfect and it wasn’t going to happen. Which was another reason I learned to move on quickly from some guys with great possibilities — if they weren’t interested in exploring that possibility, for whatever reason, it just wasn’t going to happen for us.
priya 25
I think most of the women want to experience that thunderbolt feeling too.Thats why women find alpha men irresistible.Thats why there are all these websites all over internet about how to be alpha man.
Very few women after going through few heartbreaks start reading and evaluating their own choices logically.
Clare 26
I’ve had a guy tell me he loved me after one date, so yes it can happen. Though hopefully most of them know to keep it to themselves, because the vast majority of women would be plotting to contact their lawyers for that impending restraining order … :p
Heather 27
The comments about “instant chemistry” just gave me another “a-ha” moment about dating. I’d meet guys online, we’d have fabulous chemistry on the phone or email, and then the GUY, NOT me, would talk about how well we seem to click, etc etc, how excited they were to meet me. And then, we’d meet, and “Gee, I just didn’t feel that chemistry in person.” Fair enough, but it would just irk me after awhile. I would think OK, yes, there is a difference between face to face and online. But still. Don’t go blathering on about chemistry and EVEN planning future dates (had at least 2 guys doing this to me), and then a breezy little brush-off.
Me, I NEVER would make those kind of comments because it comes off as needy, creepy, desperate. I knew better, and it was to the point where I’d just tell myself, yeah OK, they feel all kinds of chemistry now. Good for them. I’d prefer to wait and see what happens in person. And that really helped, to keep that mindset. It wouldn’t crush me if things didn’t go gangbusters on the first date. I handled the brushoffs quite well, and just went whatever, guy just can’t be bothered to see if maybe there’s more. Toodles, pal!
Fusee 28
To SS #24:
Some men, like some women, can fall in “love” (or more accurately in “lust”) after one date… It’s cute when it happens but it says nada. They can fall out of it as quickly. When they really act on this initial chemistry, it does look desperate though, because it can’t be anything more than an illusion and a projection of their needs on someone else.
My understanding is that for a man to want a second date, he needs to at least find the woman attractive enough to sleep with and not so annoying that it would make sleep with her a chore. I do not believe that the unenlighted man needs much more than that for a second date while women might need to be more impressed. Now, if he looks for something more serious than a sexual relationship, even unconsciously, then yes, he’s going to need to feel some spark of interest – or more intense feelings if he is addicted to chemistry. It’s going to depend on the man, they come in all kinds of flavors.
Regarding timing, I agree with you, SS. For most men, it’s all about timing. If they’re not “ready” they will pass on priceless LTR/marriage opportunitites while still suggesting/offering a more casual thing. Women are more likely to rearrange their situation to “make it work” despite of a less ideal timing, and if they end up involved with someone “not ready” for more, they are more likely to believe that if they wait long enough to fall into his “right timing”, the guy will end up upgrading the relationship… Yeah, right!
Like you SS, I simply moved on when the guy was not ready. I met my current boyfriend *just* at his turning point, and everything is so much easier when the man really wants to build something serious, independently of chemistry.
Liz 29
SS…so true! I have been viewed as the same, and when I have let Mr. Great Possibilities go because they would not explore the possibilities, they return later down the road. But by then the feeling and possibilities are gone. Took along time to realize it is them not me.
Kathleen 30
Helen Fisher anthropologists describes different mechanisms for love She says love at first sight has been documented in animals for example elephants . With my ex of 20 years it was love at first sight, and a powerful intuition and its always been that way for me.
“There’s all kinds of reasons that you fall in love with one person rather than another: Timing is important. Proximity is important. Mystery is important. You fall in love with somebody who’s somewhat mysterious, in part because mystery elevates dopamine in the brain, probably pushes you over that threshold to fall in love.” (Helen Fisher)
Heather 31
@ Liz,
That’s happened to me before as well. I’ve had a couple of guys that wanted to “try us again” because they were too busy, too whatever, to go into an LTR with me at the time. I said, no thank you. One rejection is enough. I’m not going to be a yo-yo, meaning one minute he wants nothing serious, the next, he does. That is just exhausting. For me, it’s a one-shot deal. If you say thank you but no thank you, then I head on my merry way to go find someone who IS interested and who WILL make it work. I lose all interest after being told no.
Fusee 32
@ Liz #29 and @Heather #31:
Same here! In the past, I briefly dated a couple of men who were very interested in me but either ended up “having to deal with some things first” (aka “not the right timing”), or who did not meet my standards to keep pursuing a relationship and I had to end the brief relationship… Only for them to contact me months/years later to ask for another round! Genuinely thinking I would be available and interested in giving them another chance : ) One of them still emails me once in a while despite having clearly explained my position and since then not replying… five years later! FIVE years later!!
These men came back a few months/years later with “better clothes” (thinking they did not qualify because of old shoes : ), “more spiritual discourse” (thinking I needed to hear some pop pyscho from the Oprah website : ), or another one with “more wordly experience” (thinking I would be impressed by some international work gig : )
Like you, Heather, I do the “one shot deal”. One chance per person per lifetime. You gotta choose your priorities.
Liz 33
@ Heather I know its horrible, but if your calling me everyday and/or texting me, making a point to see me and then vanish, was there any real attraction or chemistry? It is the dreaded he just wasn’t that into you, or personally had stuff going on where the planets couldn’t align.
I take to heart a lot of what the various dating coaches out there give us. It is basic logic, take care of yourself, build yourself up, and don’t become clingy on someone you may be interested in. However, the allow him 8 weeks to think about the relationship and re-engage him…don’t see the logic in all that. A week, okay I could probably deal with that, two weeks, not so much.
nathan 34
Plenty of women operate on “needing” the thunderbolt to continue dating a man as well. If I had dollar for every time I read or heard a variation of the sentence “I just didn’t feel enough chemistry with him” (during the first date), I’d be rich. Or the women who say they decide within 5 five minutes or less whether they’d be willing to sleep with a guy or not, and then check out of any date where the answer is “not.”
It’s lust people! That’s what the thunderbolt is. Although I agree with Kathleen that there are case of actual “love at first sight,” those are pretty rare and really not something to base your dating practices on.
Seems to that it’s smarter to focus on “long term chemistry.” Which is much more complicated and nuanced than this instant stuff that probably everyone here has experienced at least once in their lives. LTC includes shared values, compatibility, flexibility, etc.
Fusee’s point about timing is interesting. Again, I think it’s something true for both men and women. I have dated multiple women who basically “weren’t ready.” That’s what it boiled down to. It didn’t matter how committed I was; they just weren’t able to offer it back. That’s just how it goes sometimes.
Karmic Equation 35
@SalsaQ 17
What Mia said that struck a chord with me was that the key to a successful relationship is
this person and I get along, we have a connection because we can talk about a lot of things and be ourselves, we’re attracted enough to want to have sex, and the person treats me well –
I absolutely with your truncated sentence…but I was actually responding to the FIRST part of her statement:
But it would be nice to meet more men who think the way I and many women think, which is, Hey, this person and I get along, we have a connection because we can talk about a lot of things and be ourselves, we’re attracted enough to want to have sex, and the person treats me well – what more is there to ask for or expect?
I’m reading Steve Harvey’s book, Act Like a Lady, Think Like a Man. I don’t agree with most of what he writes, but he wrote something that I had to confirm with a guy-friend, who agreed absolutely. Harvey writes that men are simple and show their love simply. He calls them the 3P’s – Profess, Protect, and Provide. That’s it. That’s the sum of a man’s way of loving. While a woman’s love is much more complex, nuanced, rich, deep, and beautiful. You really have to read that part. As I read it, I was thinking YEAH, I want my man to love me EXACTLY like that…and then he comes in with NOPE, Men don’t love like that…I had to laugh.
Profess = giving the woman a label (wife, girlfriend) not just “friend”
Protect = protect her from bad things happening, take care of her physical well being
Provide = bring home the bacon, keep the roof over her head. And a good man will work at a job he hates just so he can provide for you if he loves you.
Heather 36
@ Fusee:
Yep! It is a one-time only offer. No rainchecks. If you didn’t want me then, chances are you probably won’t want me now either, so let’s just cut losses and keep rolling! I just don’t have time anymore to sit around and go duh gee, does he like me? Will he call me? If he doesn’t, then hey, onward and upward! So what if he didn’t like me? Like I read once in a book about dating: “Their rejection, is the universe’s protection.”
@ Liz:
I can’t even do a week anymore. I once was emailing with a guy on a dating site, he didn’t respond. OK, fair enough, move on. He text messaged me three weeks later (and I’d forgotten about it so I was confused as to whom it was that text messaged me) to say, “Well I didn’t respond because I met a girl. But we didn’t work out. So how about we give it a go?” I was like oooooh no. Oh hell no. I am not plan B, nor am I a consolation prize. (Now I did not say that to him, actually I lied and I said that I had met someone else and was going off the site. The going off the site part WAS true.)
If a guy is going to tell me that he didn’t feel that “instant chemistry” then I’d really rather not bother with him, because it shows a lack of patience and really when it comes down to it, true interest. If the guy is looking for fireworks, he may want to look for a state that does allow them to be sold. Otherwise, well that’s probably not going to happen.
SalsaQ 37
@Heather 36
“I didn’t respond because I met a girl. But we didn’t work out. “oooooh no. Oh hell no. I am not plan B, nor am I a consolation prize.
You weren’t plan anything. You weren’t on the radar. You were likely passed up because he already had a date scheduled with someone else when you started. That makes you feel like a consolation prize? Because he happened to have communicated with someone else first? Keep working on your thicker skin.
Liz 38
@Heather Indeed. I get around 10 contacts per day on Match. Most of them fall outside of what I am looking for or are a wee bit crazy (there is a reason for the report a concern option). I have only gone out on about 10 dates in the last month and a half. Two made it to the elusive 4th date. Yeah practice makes perfect! Online dating is not for the faint of heart–but just emailing doesn’t bother me, its the dating 4-8 times and not progressing that baffles me.
One of the four plus dates guys… has pulled away, just as intimacy was on the horizon (that happen to the last one before the last too..hmmm). No phone call since last Monday, just some random texts, and no push to see me this weekend or really communicate. So sadly, I erased his number last night (got to cut your losses and avoid those horrific drunk texts that nothing good can come from). I really DO think it is the most humane thing to do, when you are a guy and not ready for a Long Term thing. Maybe they are chasing chemistry, maybe they want to date for fun, maybe its me, who knows. It could be 100 things, you just try to keep yourself going, be the best you can be, and the best will find you.
The other one, literally, I find quite engaging–Almost want to contact Evan about him. Very much my Senior, which I would never have guessed I would fancy. We jokingly commented that we are the 1 percent, looking for the attractive one percent, who are sane, in our proximity, which means our dating pool is .025 of the population. Mind you we are both extremely liberal, registered Democrats, well educated, and do alright for ourselves-so it was partly in jest. But for fun, on Match I looked up my age demographic, then anyone with a Masters or above, and I was sort of taken aback. If this one follows what he married, Harvard Law, and his prior girlfriends, his pickings will be slim. Literally I am one of 17 women between 30-50 with PHD or above, within a 40 mile radius of his home. And believe me my options were equally as limited, within my age range, but above my age range, much more fast and appealing. Maybe it is just not the women chasing Alpha males, but what if an Alpha male wants at least an 8, with a higher degree of education, who is well adjusted, and well rounded, I think his options are equally limiting.
Leo 39
@Mia
“But it would be nice to meet more men who think the way I and many women think, which is, Hey, this person and I get along, we have a connection because we can talk about a lot of things and be ourselves, we’re attracted enough to want to have sex, and the person treats me well – what more is there to ask for or expect?”
I’ve interviewed tons of men lately and asked them why they married their partner.
The common theme?
Because she cares. That’s it.
The hurdle that many single women have to jump through to find a good man isn’t as high as it appears.
Mia 40
Leo, that’s comforting to hear, but the man has to be mature enough and in the right emotional place for a relationship to seek out and appreciate that quality in a partner. Some men have those qualities, some never will, and many won’t develop them for awhile, until they experience enough frustration and disappointment with how things have worked out for them so far. I know it certainly took me a lot of mistakes and disappointments to become a person who, very recently, commited to having much different boundaries than I had in the past, so there must be other men out there who are finally choosing to do things differently after years of unfortunate experiences.
Ruby 41
Leo #39
Plenty of women (and men) have cared greatly for another person and gotten dumped. I don’t think it’s quite that simple.
LANY 42
@LC – 6 and @Liz – 7: Liz, I completely agree with you; you can’t blame men for acting like men, and if someone cant get beyond the desire for ALMOST ANY straight man to sleep with as many women as possible, good luck not being bitter and alone.
Additionally, what is wrong with “thinking about their own needs” at the earliest points in a relationship? Do you not focus on *your* own needs when you meet men? Do you not think “does this guy meet MY needs?” first and foremost? EVERYONE should only be with someone who meets their needs – and if they don’t meet a potential partners needs is it that other persons responsibility to move on.
Evan, on another note, my boyfriend and I were at a mutual friend’s housewarming with you and your wife a couple years ago. He very specifically referred to your wife as “that hot chick over there.”
Leo 43
Mia, I agree. He has to be emotionally ready to be able to embrace what’s coming his way.
I was only concern about where you were coming from when you said that
“Many men seem to have to experience an instant thunderbolt, with no regard to whether the woman is kind, has her life together, they can be themselves around each other, they have the same values, etc.”
Most of the men I’ve talked to, don’t fall in this category. They’re not looking for that instant thunderbolt.
—-
Ruby, I’m not saying that if you care for your man, it’s 100% bulletproof and that he’ll never leave you.
I wish relationships were that easy.
What I am saying is that if you show that you care and you put him first, he’s way more likely to think that you ARE the prize and that he can’t let you go.
Is that going to require a leap of faith from you?
You bet.
Fusee 44
@Mia #40: “…so there must be other men out there who are finally choosing to do things differently after years of unfortunate experiences.”
Yes there are. Everyone has a rock bottom! And hitting rock bottom is the condition for evaluation, education, and redirection.
Although it might be more common for women to explore their relationship failures and seek improvement, some men are certainly wiling and able of growth in this area as well. For example, before me my boyfriend had never really been able to move past instant chemistry followed by the inevitable crash shortly after. Then he met me and he was going to follow his usual pattern, but thanks to my gentle way of slowing down the physical progression and therefore the intensity, and my focus on building an emotional connection, he unexpectedly found himself in a trusting and caring relationship before he even went to second base with me. He was shocked, and litterally thanked me for my approach. He validated it BEFORE we even had moved to that second base.
Therefore, although we “do not change men” (and we should not even try), our attitudes, boundaries, and opinions can influence them positively. They can learn quick if they care enough. My boyfriend certainly did, and he still does. And that’s what makes me love him even more.
Heather 45
@ SalsaQ:
You “might” want to re-read what I wrote, because apparently, you didn’t read it thoroughly enough. The guy met someone, was DATING her, and didn’t work out.
So are you saying I should go out with someone who A) saw me as a backup plan and B) was dumb enough to tell me what he did? I can tell you right now, that I don’t put up with either of the above. If the girl didn’t work out, fine, but guess what, I DO NOT need to hear that. That IMO, is rude. I’d never even consider saying that to a guy. Great way to bust a guy’s ego and possibly piss him off.
I’m thinking I don’t need to work on thicker skin as much as you might want to consider reading more carefully before jumping to a conclusion. Just sayin.
Evan Marc Katz 46
@Heather – Sorry, but SalsaQ is right. Just because a guy fell for some other woman and it didn’t work out isn’t an insult to you. There are millions of happy couples out there who were what you’d call “backups”. The difference is that they let go of their righteous indignation because they were able to put themselves in their partners’ shoes and understand. You still think it’s rude. And as long as you take things personally that aren’t personal, you will struggle in dealing with men.
Liz 47
@Heather, Evan is right, the emails are like little casual conversations on the street with strangers. Sometimes they last awhile, sometimes they are just blips on the screen, and puff they are gone. They have no obligations to you, and you have none to them. I actually think it was honest that he said: I started dating someone, sorry I lost touch, can I take you out now because it blew up in my face. It doesn’t make you a plan B, but it is more of a honest human reaction to the difficult world of dating. Sometimes we go astray. I wouldn’t cast these men off. Two weeks is about my patience level after there has been 4 dates, but if we were just chatting and he popped back up, I would completely go out to dinner.
nathan 48
Heather, you have no idea how many times this has happened to me, and other men for that matter. Hell, I can recall times when a month or two went by and some woman I’d been writing pops up again, trying to reconnect. It’s really how it is with online dating, by design. People are usually writing more than a few others, setting up dates, going out, etc. Even those of us who tend to try and focus don’t always keep up with it all.
Just because you have a few e-mail exchanges with someone, doesn’t mean they must now commit to dating you on the spot. That’s absolutely absurd. I agree that the guy shouldn’t say anything about other women he was dating, but frankly, if you’re wound up about a gap in correspondence with guys that you have never met, you’re skin is entirely too thin. The idea that you are a “backup plan” is completely faulty. The guy didn’t even know you. He hadn’t even met you. You can only become someone’s backup plan if you actually have spent time together. And I’m not talking about one date here. Otherwise, it’s all just imagined nonsense. You want to be treated special, but until someone gets to know you, all you are to them is pixels and letters on a screen.
Furthermore, let’s turn this around. Do you act like some guy you’ve never met is special after a few e-mails? Do you put all your eggs in a single basket, and never go on dates with anyone else during the process? Do you worry that in going out with X, and delaying a date with Y for a week or two is going to make him think he’s a “backup plan”? Somehow, I seriously doubt it.
Heather 49
Well, all I can say is that I respectfully disagree that being told by the guy that he contacted me, because the lady he was dating blew up in his face, basically made me a plan B.
I am not asking for “special treatment” as one poster said. I am asking to be treated with some decency and respect. Would any of you guys like it if I said to you, “Well, hey, I’m going to hang out with you, because the other friend I was going to hang out with, was unavailable.”? I’m thinking that not a one of you would appreciate that. It’s rude. It’s inconsiderate.
I do not care if the guy was dating someone else; what mattered to me was that it was presented as if I were plan B, and I feel that I deserve better than to be the guy’s “leftovers.” If he’d wanted to go out with me, all he’d have had to do was just say, “Sorry for the delay, something came up.” I’d have been absolutely fine with that. But because those words were said, it just made me go, yeah NO. So now he wants to go out with me because some chick blew up in his face. Nah, no thanks. I deserve better than someone who’d blurt that out to me.
And I don’t do double standards; I have never, in my life, ever said something to a guy akin to: “Well, since Mr. X was a flop, sure, I’ll go out with you!” after Guy Y had expressed interest in me as well. That is just rude. And my boyfriend agreed with the assessment when we traded dating stories. He said that the guy clearly was pretty clueless about dating, if he’d go around saying that to a girl.
First impressions are everything, and if that’s how a guy is going to start things off, then I’d prefer to meet or talk to someone who at least tries to give the impression that I’m not just some statistic. I think a number of posters here have stated in earlier threads, that that’s a big problem with online dating, was that they felt they were just a number or just a date in a guy’s or girl’s black book, and nothing more.
amy 50
And I know this has been said before but Evan, your wife is gorgeous. And classy. I don’t get that line in Lori’s book at all. Maybe it was just for literary effect.
Karl R 51
Heather said: (#45)
“The guy met someone, was DATING her, and didn’t work out.”
“I’d never even consider saying that to a guy. Great way to bust a guy’s ego and possibly piss him off.”
You don’t expect your dates to be honest and open. You consider that behavior to be “rude” and “dumb”.
You expect your dates to have fragile egos and hot tempers.
That seems backwards to me.
Heather said: (#45)
“It is a one-time only offer. No rainchecks. If you didn’t want me then, chances are you probably won’t want me now either, so let’s just cut losses and keep rolling!”
Between the time I met my fiancée and our first date, I dated four other women, including the woman who introduced us. I may have dated more than four, but I can only remember four.
After I got to know her better, I decided she was worth dating. And even when we began dating, neither one of us even expected it to be more than a fling.
Fortunately, our egos are far more robust than yours.
Evan Marc Katz 52
Thanks to everyone who had nice things to say about my wife. Obviously, I’m a big fan. But I do understand and acknowledge Lori Gottlieb’s initial impression of her. She’s not overwhelmingly gorgeous, brilliant or impressive. What makes her special is what’s on the inside – qualities that wouldn’t be readily apparent on Match.com or on a first date. I’m very lucky I took the time to discover them and that I chose to make her my wife. I very easily could have missed the boat. This is why I’m so vocal and evangelical about dating coaching.
Ruby 53
The OP wwrote, “We had lunch a few times. I had been looking at this as a friendship and then, yes you guessed it, he informed me I was invited over any time to have dinner and fornication. I told him I do not make a habit out of sleeping with my friends and politely declined.”
This man doesn’t sound like much of a friend to me. Nothing wrong with staying “friends” (and I use the term loosely) with someone you dated so casually if you like them, and don’t care, but this guy really sounds like a self-absorbed jackass. Surely Cheryl can find kinder friends than this. As for his comments, consider the source.
@ Heather
The acquaintance I posted about in #5 initially broke up with the woman he married to date someone else that he felt more chemistry with. But after months of dating her, he realized that she had major issues. He had stayed in very casual contact with the first woman, and decided to try again with her after a couple of years. During that period, his mindset about what he needed to be happy had changed. In that case, Plan B turned out to be the correct option.
sarahrahrah! 54
This is a very interesting post and discussion.
Though I agree that the guy in question was tactless, I do think that there are some people who are very in tune with their preferences, know what they want and are able to quickly recognize in others the qualities that they highly value. Does it work for a long-term relationship? I have no idea, but I do think that some studies from speed dating show that people can quickly size up whom they’d be compatible with a good degree of accuracy.
It seems to me that people talk about chemistry in terms of initial face-to-face interaction and the visual perception of attraction. What about when two people find each other to be decently attractive, but then experience chemistry when people get close enough to kiss and smell each other? It seems to me that this is a big part of chemistry and ongoing physical compatibility. Do any other people put much weight into this? Men or just women? It feels so great when it’s “good” that it seems difficult to me to brush this aspect aside. I’m curious as to how much stock others put into this and how it has played out for them in the long term.
I’ve had really great chemistry (sex) with only a few people in my life and ,in one circumstance, it felt like a transcendent experience. Despite this, it was full of drama and wasn’t worth the price. Since I’m still relatively new to dating, I’m curious how other passionate people have found a healthy balance between “chemistry” and a healthy relationship. Can’t people have a passionate relationship and still be compatible in other ways?
nathan 55
Heather, few people make a perfect first impression, and at least some of the time, first impressions are totally useless indicators of future behavior. The guy that sweeps a woman off her feet and then suddenly vanishes. The guy who makes all the right moves, gets her in the sack, and then bails. The guy who gives you the thunderbolt, then proceeds to make your life a living drama hell. There’s a few of these kind of posts on here a month. And that’s just this blog.
I love Ruby’s example above, and it’s one that I’ve heard more than a few times. People grow up, and their priorities change. Sometimes in a matter of months or a few years.
“It is a one-time only offer. No rainchecks. If you didn’t want me then, chances are you probably won’t want me now either, so let’s just cut losses and keep rolling! I just don’t have time anymore to sit around and go duh gee, does he like me? Will he call me? If he doesn’t, then hey, onward and upward!” Statements like this make me think that the particular incident with the “plan b” guy wasn’t just about his failure to politely lie to you (that’s really what you wanted there, that he lie about why he didn’t get back to you for 3 weeks.) No, it strikes me that any man who doesn’t respond post haste is chucked from consideration. There are plenty of legitimate complaints to be made about online dating, but this idea of wanting to placed first and given full attention before you’ve even met the other person is really out of whack.
Nicole 56
I would think that the only thing a man knows after just one date is whether or not he wants to see you naked. And you know the answer to that question if he calls for a 2nd…
Hailey 57
I can understand where Heather is coming from, it can be disheartening to hear a guy tell you that he has been mia because he met and pursued another girl he was interested in, and since that didnt work out, he would like to give you a go. that just doesnt scream romance. but it is reality, it happens more than we know of in the crazy world of dating. of course, ignorance can be bliss instances like this, and unless pressed on why you went mia, i would suggest a guy not share that info. however if it is shared, i would suggest a woman understand it happens, whether to her or the millions of other singles, and to not take it so personally. he may have been blinded by the other woman thinking she was something she was not, but now maybe the blinders are off and he can see you for just how special you are. regardless, honesty is refreshing, and if he is open and honest about what was going on (without you even having to ask!), he might just be of good character. im sure he didnt mean it to hurt your feelings, perhaps it was a bonehead move, but if you like him, give him a shot.
Mini 58
Amused by this whole plan B thread. Last year I was exchanging messages on OkCupid with a fellow who looked cute and had a reasonably appealing profile. He didn’t seem really gung-ho to meet, and I had started dating someone, so I sent him a note basically saying, I like you and I’m enjoying our conversation, but I started dating someone and I feel like I should give it a decent shot, so let’s hold off on meeting. He admitted he was in the same situation.
Six weeks later, it wasn’t working out and I sent him another note suggesting we meet. We did. We hit it off.
This year we bought a house and moved in together. I feel like I’ve found the love of my life. We’re blissfully happy together and feel that it’s for keeps.
I’m glad he didn’t get huffy about being my plan B… The other guy simply got there first, and at the time I didn’t know either of them well enough to know who was right for me. I figured it out.
nathan 59
“I can understand where Heather is coming from, it can be disheartening to hear a guy tell you that he has been mia because he met and pursued another girl he was interested in, and since that didnt work out, he would like to give you a go. that just doesnt scream romance.” This is one of the reasons why I advocate that people recognize online dating is NOT the same as meeting people in your personal or professional circle. I could understand feeling disheartened if you met someone through a friend, at a party, at work, etc. and had started developing a connection, and then found out they chose someone else, it didn’t work out, and now they wanted to try it out with you. It still shouldn’t be the end of the world, but it would make sense to have such a response and question what their decision means, given that you’d already met and started developing a connection. The same kind of reaction, to someone who has just e-mailed you a few times and is a complete stranger otherwise, doesn’t make any sense. I’m not saying people shouldn’t feel what they feel. I’m saying that given the facts, it’s wise to override those kind of reactions because they aren’t offering any useful information to you.
Furthermore, I would argue that the whole structure and function of online dating is NOT romantic. It’s designed for people to have lots of choices, learn some basic information about each other before they ever meet, and be able to ask and set up dates with minimal risk. The process isn’t sexy. The initial “meeting” stories rarely make for a good romantic comedy. Which doesn’t mean that there isn’t any romance – there’s plenty of romance when connections are right. But it’s not usually found in the process of meeting up. The romantic pieces are often delayed because – again – you are total strangers, pixels and words on a screen. Forgive the repetition, but it’s kind of interesting how many people – women and men – still seem to act as if online dating is exactly the same as meeting people in their “regular” lives.
miskwa 60
@Heather and others
Yep, I have found that the best way to deal with on line guys is to stay in a state of detachment until you meet numerous times and there is a chance of something serious. I think most of the time, these dudes are merely seeking attention or an ego stroke. After one date, men (and often women) fall in lust, not love. That takes months of knowing one another. I too have fallen victim to intense chemistry but still didn’t act on it till I knew who I was dealing with. I have had to dump some very good looking guys that turned out to have major character issues (racism, unethical behavior, dishonesty) and, like a previous poster, I am one of those highly educated, highly motivated types that will never have many matches on a dating site (my age range is 55-75). Still, staying with someone who may be strongly attracted to you physically but is impossible to build a real life with isn’t worth the agony.
Mia 61
No offense to anyone here, but I’m getting a real kick out of hearing about people who are turning down meet up opportunities bc they just started dating someone. If I’m meeting someone online, it takes longer and more dates to decide on exclusivity than in real life. I would never cut off my options or decline to hang out with someone reasonably appealing until I was asked to be someone’s girlfriend. Disappearing acts are so rampant that it would feel laughable and presumptous to do otherwise. Anyone you’ve been seeing less than 3 months is a high flight risk. If the guy hasn’t offered me exclusivity, I am not exactly going to be sitting on my hands waiting and turning down other opportunities – though no sex with more than one at a time.
Liz 62
“High flight risk if less than 3 months dating” is my new mantra! This is a great way to look at all of it. LOVE IT!
runnergirl 63
Thank you all for your comments. I learn a lot every time I visit this site. Last night, through POF, I chatted with a guy on the phone. He wanted to meet up in 30 mins. I had turned in for the evening but he was willing to come to my house to meet me. I’m like huh? A perfect online stranger coming to my house? I suggest we meet the next evening in a public place for a drink and he goes blank. He doesn’t know if he could make plans. He’s willing to come to my house in 30 mins but can’t figure out whether he wants to meet for a drink in 24 hours. Yeah, give me a break. Sometimes Evan, it is just too obvious. He was totally “shocked” that I declined and insisted that because he was a pilot, he was honorable because all pilots are honorable. He was volunteering to come to my house as perfect stranger because he was being honorable. Hello, do online guys understand that there is a very real danger in having perfect strangers show up at my house? I know I need a dating coach but the guys I’ve met need a dating coach more than me.
Jane 64
EMK Don’t you find it odd that others find your wife gorgeous and attractive, hot and anything but average— but you don’t? I think that is odd…… I get it about seeing other things in her that distinguished her but I’m sticking with the idea that I and others see her as gorgeous and high on the hotness scale. We can do that and still be a devotee of on-line coaching!!
Karmic Equation 65
@Heather 49
Hi Heather, I’ve read some of your other posts and am aware that you’ve been in abusive relationship(s) that you are working to overcome.
I’m a believer that sometimes when we make a “course correction”, we swing the pendulum too far in the opposite direction. This is human. Eventually the pendulum finds its center.
It sounds to me that because of your past bad relationships (and how you now realize you should not have tolerated the bad treatment the way you did) you may now be intolerant of anything that even seems remotely like bad treatment. In other words, your past experience may be unfairly coloring your current experiences.
I’ve never online dated…but it appears that there are enough posters on this board with online dating experience who can advise that what you’ve encountered was not out of the norm nor intended to be personally insulting to you. By focusing on the Plan B part (which was *your* own interpretation, I hope the guy didn’t call you that!) you neglected to notice the man’s honesty.
To me, his honesty was endearing, showing that he’s not an experienced dater. IMO, an experienced dater would have kept that info to himself.
Nicole 66
@Runnergirl…that is weird but can’t say it’s uncommon. I don’t know why any man would think that a woman would meet him without a bit of back and forth, and no stranger would ever be given my home address either but a lot of people try to go there.
I don’t know if these are criminals hoping to find an easy mark or people lacking social skills. At any rate, what you did was just plain common sense.
That sounds really scary. I can’t imagine he had anything good planned for you.
JB 67
Obviously this thread has gone way off the topic of men falling in love with women after one date.
For some reason women more than men while doing online dating have difficulty with the way it works. ie: dating a few people at the same time while knowing all those people may be doing the same thing all while getting new prospects daily etc…..
Nathan has brought up some great points and I’ve been on both ends of the “Plan B” thing and it’s just the way the online dating world works now.
A woman I had 6 emails with and a planned date with. Emails me a final time and says “she met someone she’s interested in and she only dates one man at a time” “Good Luck” No big deal, I didn’t even reply I just thought she was blowing me off.
2 weeks later she texts me and says and I quote ” Hi JB I hope it’s ok that I am texting you. I regret that we didn’t meet. I decided too soon to close myself off to other opportunities. If you can look beyond my foolish decision and give me a chance, I’d like to meet you. If not, I completely understand.” So I text her back and said “I understand how online dating works and some peoples impulsiveness and I hold no hard feelings so sure” We met last night and had a nice time and talked about it.
On the other hand…. one woman (who I was one of the first to email) took me 6 weeks to get her to a phone conversation where I found out she’d already went out with 10 guys and none of them was “good enough” so she said she’d meet me “next week” some time yadda yadda yadda. She sounded drained and ambivalent from the process. I never called her again. “Plan B” is one thing, “Plan L” is another.
SalsaQ 68
@JB 67 You were still pixels on a screen to the second woman and should not take that personally. What distinguishes you from the other 10 men in her mind before she meets any of them? You were not judged relative to them in any real way.
You believe you picked up that she was burned out on dating and not receptive or able to be open to a relationship (I can sympathize with her. It is too bad she does not recognize it.) The “not good enough” means she is working down a to do list of try this guy then that guy. That is a fine reason not to waste a date with her.
shellye 69
@Jane
What’s odd to me is the underlying connotation that there is disparity or some level of mismatch in their levels of physical attractiveness, and that this is frequently emphasized. If we’re discussing that trait alone, his wife is certainly equally if not more attractive than he.
runnergirl 70
@Nicole (66), thank you for the feedback. I don’t think the guy was a criminal but he was out of line in my opinion. Clearly, there was no chemistry or thunderbolt because we had only exchanged three or four very short emails. I’ve had one other guy suggest that our second date occur at his house and he had the same shocked reaction when I said nope. I guess some guys (not all) may be simply chancing their arms and don’t much like being declined. My goal is to develop a healthy committed relationship based on trust, respect, and honesty. Of course, developing a committed relationship takes a bit more than chemistry and a bit more than one date. That may be too lofty a goal for online dating but I’m not giving up hope. I’ve learned a lot about me, my boundaries, and my values. I’ve gone down the chemistry road and well…you can imagine out that ended.
@Heather, I totally agree with you and your decision. If you felt like a Plan B for whatever reason, I’d say you are entitled to your feelings. And congratulations for recognizing and validating your own feelings. The guy may have just been a bonehead but it isn’t your role in life to teach a guy how to behave appropriately. For me, at 53, I don’t have time to raise a guy, plus I’m raising a daughter! Yup, I’m a one chance and flush kinda girl too. Since my age range is 40-something to 50-something, I’m assuming the guys in that age range have had some experience with members of the opposite sex and know how to treat a woman? Maintain your boundaries.
JB 71
@SalsaQ #68 “What distinguishes you from the other 10 men in her mind before she meets any of them?”
I know we’re all “just pixels on a page” at that point but it’s really not that simple. If a woman is more interested in 10-15 other guys than she is in me that doesn’t bode well for my chances of actually having her be interested when/if we meet.
And you’re right her attitude of being burned out and less than excited about ME on the phone was THE reason I never followed up.
No matter what is going on my life or has gone on in my online dating world I ALWAYS try and be upbeat, fresh, and positive to whomever I’m emailing or chatting with. Even if it’s an act…..lol
Nicole 72
@JB, I thinkthat what you are describing so much “how online dating works” so much as how some women choose to date period.
And that is fine. I definitely know people of both genders who prefer to have one conversation at a time, and I have female friends who definitely like to cast several lines (and you’ll see many of the women who comment here talk about the same thing).
It’s good you were fine with it, but I think people of BOTH genders would do well to understand that how you approach online dating is not how they might approach it and vice versa. I personally don’t think it makes sense to put all eggs in one basket with someone you haven’t even met. At least in the case of real life meeting it might make more sense to stop looking until things run their course, but yeah, too much is assigned to gender when I don’t think that is the case.
Jay 73
I kind of understand where Heather is coming from, I recently connected online with someone from college (we never hung out, but we had mutual friends). He said he had been wanting to meet me for a while, mentioned his past issues and was willing to be upfront about his past relationships, I declined, and trusted him. 3 months of conversations. He had brought up me coming to visit him (long distance) and I made a suggestion for solidifying this ( by going to visit). He replied, sure no problem, and disappeared. I saw him on facebook, 2 weeks later, and we had a tiny spat about why he was avoiding me (I asked him to delete me rather than continually logging off when he saw me, he said he was talking to a friend on her birthday and I sounded venomous). Stupidly, a day later, I sent him an email, asking if he needed space or had met someone else, just let me know, miss him, take care. He never replied, but did take the time to write a quote about compatibility and making it work as his facebook status a day later, to which the same female friend from earlier liked. Still no word from this guy.
If he came back, saying he dated her, but it blew up in his face, and would like to give us another chance, I’m not sure I won’t reply by banging the phone on him.
hespeler 74
I am just now starting to heal after being a rebound guy. I met a girl on-line about 6 weeks ago. She told me upfront not to have expectations; that her ex cheated on her (he made out with a girl in a bar) and just wanted me to know upfront. I had other options but let them go soon after meeting her because I really liked her and was very interested after the first date and also because I have done a lot of serial dating and I just don’t like it anymore. I find it too hard to focus and give someone a chance.
After the 3rd date, I was really hooked. Yes the chemistry was intense but I was also interested in other things, i.e., her age, where she lived, where she worked, her personality and interests. She was also 20 pounds overweight which I didn’t even care about. She began telling me how exited she was about me, how much she missed me, how she couldn’t wait to see me, etc.
After a while it was apparent that she was keeping me at arms length. I told her I was having strong feelings for her and to not contact me unless she was genuinely interested in me. She did and we went out 2 more times. She then met me again and dropped the bomb on me that she was going back to her ex. I was devestated. Instead of just letting me go she kept in touch with me and it became flirty again and we met one more time. It was a very intimate date with a lot of romance. We kept in touch last week and I have barely spoken to her over the last 5 days. She is starting to disappear.
Yes my fault for letting myself get involved with someone with unresolved ex-boyfriend issues but the chemistry was there. I rolled the dice and knew I may get hurt. I am and it doesn’t make it any easier.
I can’t begin to describe how “right” it felt. I’ve dated a lot of woman in the last few years and was waiting for something like this. My only expectation was that we would be able to focus on eachother for a little while and see if we could have worked out.
I haven’t been in love in a long time. I’m not sure what this was but it felt like love and it happened in the first few dates.
Peter 75
Chemistry is driven by the clock. I was the back up to the chemistry experiment but actually dealing with that awkwardness was good practice for the future as it gave us some mechanisms for handling problems.