Do Men Like Bitches Or Nice Girls?
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Evan,
When it comes to dating, what do you think works best for attracting a man – and making him want to commit? In the world of dating advice, there are two opposite schools of thought on the subject: one is coming from the likes of Sherry Argov’s “Why Men Love Bitches” where the “nice girls” get passed over the more edgy, less giving women; and the other is from Tracy McMillan’s “Why You Are Not Married”, proclaiming that kindness gets you to the altar and the “nice girls” finish first with the ring on their left hand. Example (one of many) is that cooking for a man is a sign of caring and nurturing from McMillan’s point of view, whereas it’s a number one sign of a doormat from the Argov’s. In your experience, what works?
–Stephanie
Dear Stephanie,
I’m thrilled that you asked this. Honestly.
Because you’ve outlined the central dilemma that most of my smart, strong, successful clients face: should I be a bitch or a nice girl? What works better? What do men like? What if I’m naturally one way? Should I try to be the other?
These questions are all completely misguided.
The people who are happily married all figured out which trade-offs were worth it. The people who have not figured out their tradeoffs still struggle.
They reduce female behavior to a binary choice, when, in fact, behavior can never be compared to an either/or proposition.
We see fallacies like that all the time on this blog.
When I tell you to dial down chemistry, it becomes: “Oh, so I should go out with someone who is entirely unattractive to me?”
When I tell you that if you have your own money, you don’t need a man to make more than you, it becomes, “Oh, so I should find myself some slacker deadbeat who can’t support himself?”
Sorry, but the world is grey and these are weak straw-man arguments that women use to defend why they need a man who is taller, smarter, richer, funnier, etc. Except it’s simply not true. Men don’t need women who are taller, smarter, richer and funnier, and the fact that women think they do – as if anything else is “settling” – is the main source of the problem. The people who are happily married all figured out which trade-offs were worth it. The people who have not figured out their tradeoffs still struggle.
So here’s the deal, Stephanie.
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60 Comments »Filed Under Understanding Men
Julia 1
Why is it that when I am being a bitch, aka ignoring men that I have no interest in going out with again, men won’t leave me alone? I feel like its bad karmic energy but I also feel like nothing is owed to anyone after 1 date, I shouldn’t have to break up with a guy that I am not dating.
Stacy 2
It is an excellent point that what matters is having boundaries. But sometimes you have to be a real bitch to establish and maintain those boundaries. Men are like toddlers – they will test the water to see exactly with how much BS they can get away with and still have “dinner and oral sex”. Can they not take you out for a month? Can they skip dinner with your parents 2 times in a row to watch a game? Can they give you a box of chocolates for your 30-th birthday? Can they not offer help cleaning up, changing a diper in the middle of the night, walking the dog, etc? When this happens you have to put your foot down and let them know that this behavior in unacceptable, which often leads to a tantrum (remember men are like toddlers), so you have to be really firm and follow through with whatever consequences you feel are appropriate.. good men respond well to such “training”, bad men don’t, so those are not relaitonship material
Wendy 3
I remember someone once telling me that the definition of “love” is not how you feel about someone, but how you feel about yourself when you’re with that someone. I try to always keep this in mind when I’m dating. I believe if you can make a man feel good about himself when he’s around you (by supporting his dreams, accepting his flaws, etc.), then he’ll stick around, at least until the relationship falls apart for other reasons. It’s worked well for me, but I have a helluva time trying to get my bitchy friends to understand the philosophy behind it. One in particular gives me the run-down on her dates (“We went for sushi because I like sushi even though he doesn’t, then I had to tell him why he shouldn’t eat meat, and THEN I had to tell him why his car is so bad for the environment, blahblahblah….”). And she wonders why they don’t call her again!!! While my friend likes to think of herself as a “strong woman who knows what she wants and doesn’t have to waste time putting up with guys’ BS,” I think she’s a bitch. But I think men are easily drawn to bitchy women because they initially appear confident and fun (which is why us nicer, quieter gals often get passed up, and why the myth of the “bitch” personality type attracting more men persists), but when a guy finds himself being respected and appreciated by a woman, I believe it makes him stop and think, “Hey…she could be the one!” Honey gathers more flies than vinegar.
Fusee 4
Spot on!
Especially:
“If you have boundaries, you won’t sleep with a guy until he’s exclusive.
If you have boundaries, you won’t stay with him for four months without being his girlfriend.
If you have boundaries, you let him know how he disappointed you and how he can please you better, instead of silently stewing that he unknowingly mistreated you.”
And:
“…the best way to a man’s heart is to treat him well. Support his dreams. Accept his flaws. Laugh at his jokes. Let him be himself. Cook him dinner. Give him oral sex.”
I will add: such behavior can not be pretended, not in the long-term at least. It is the result of a solid character and the ability to truly love. Respect, partnership, acceptance, appreciation, allowing, affection, attention, these are the attributes of real love. If you can’t support his dreams because they do not align with yours and your values, if you can’t laugh at his jokes, if you won’t give him something he really enjoys, maybe it’s time to let him go and choose a different man more compatible to you or more deserving of your love. Or to start working on your character.
All my previous relationship difficulties came from not having a well-rounded character and/or from not having clear and firm boundaries. I was loyal and generous, but I was not accepting and appreciative. I wanted a life-partner, but I was choosing men based on short-term considerations. When I did the (hard) work of adding these character and boundary tools in my toolbox, my relationships improved. All of them.
Being “a nice girl” or being “a bitch”? If you have a good character, you’ll be “a nice girl” by default. Spice it up by role-playing the bitch once in a while : )
Jessica 5
You said it best Evan, I agree with you 100% people tend to think to either extreme.
Heather 6
@ Stacy,
I tend to agree as far as setting boundaries goes. I dated a guy who did that, was constantly testing to see what he could get away with. And because he did it constantly in front of others and because I am the kind of woman who refuses to have dating drama played out in front of others, I said very little when he’d be out of line. Plus, he’d also yell at me and have the nerve to tell me that I had no right to be upset and he had the right to do as he wished.
But, I dumped him and I learned to set boundaries. I do not allow men, whether strangers or dates, to treat me disrespectfully. If a date is disrespectful in any way, shape or form on the first date, I refuse to see them again. Especially if a first date cancels or wants to reschedule at the last minute, I made it a policy to not reschedule.
My boyfriend knows I will stand up for myself and if he’s disrespectful, I pipe right up now and make it really clear that I won’t tolerate his misbehavior. I learned a lot in the last 2 years since that last relationship ended, about boundaries, and like the saying goes, “We teach others how to treat us.” And I have made it my goal to love myself, and expect others to either respect my boundaries, or go away. The choice is theirs.
Jackie Holness 7
Boundaries are always sexy…
Dana Palumbo 8
“A nice guy with balls” — I like that. I always said I want a man with a soft heart and a hard dick.
Mia 9
A lot of how to succeed with the opposite sex is not necessarily intuitive, so I recall reading the Why Men Love Bitches book and several others to get a better grasp on effective ways of dating. However, I find the book’s advice to be off base for several reasons.
It advises women to NEVER mention commitment, that for men that process takes 4-6 months. It also advises you to wait a little while for sex, but not to bring up exclusivity or anything like that when you finally do it. The book mentions at some point that if he goes a week without calling, act as though you didn’t even notice. Well, I’ve done these things and it got me nowhere – doing this stuff puts you at risk for being the very doormat she says you shouldn’t be. I’ve always been the cool girl to a fault, and it got me nowhere – because I was being a cool girl to the wrong guys, who just took advantage of it!
Finally, her book never brings up the point that with the right guy, you don’t NEED to be constantly putting him in his place and acting so cool and dealing with his waiting months to bring up commitment or a week-long lapse in calling.
Miranda 10
Evan, this post is so spot on.
But I always wonder why this one thing keeps coming up:
If you have boundaries, you won’t sleep with a guy until he’s exclusive.
Why???? Why do I need to wait until we are exclusive just because I am female?
I think either he’s a man with certain values so he won’t sleep around while getting to know me or he isn’t and in that case he is not relationship material for me. But the sex could still be great
…
Michele 11
I like to think I’m a nice girl, but I think I made myself too available: to meet a guy and other personal reasons. Evan, do you think we should make a man that asks us out on the spot wait to see us, even if we want to?
sarahrahrah! 12
Overall, I think this is really good advice, Evan. On the subject of boundaries, I think it should be understood that a woman should not be giving oral sex on tap if her man doesn’t know where her clitoris is and has no interest in finding out. Good sex is interactive and mutually pleasurable, not obligatory.
I know that you know this, EMK. I’m just stating the obvious for women who might be confused about the role of sex in ltrs. I was once very generous sexually and demanded very little in return. The result was that my partner didn’t respect me as I rarely voiced my needs, and he went on to cheat on me anyway, too. Lesson to self: if you treat your partner like he’s entitled, he will likely feel entitled.
Rachael 13
As usual I mostly agree with Evan.
I don’t think anyone should have to act any way at all to get a person to stay with them. If I myself were questioning that i’d have to assume I’m questioning my own ability to be lovable. That’s a whole different can of worms…
Any decent human being will accept someone and support their dreams if they love that person. Respect, kindness, compassion, and appreciation should be a given.
Abuse? Never. Men do not have a monopoly on abusive behaviour. Constantly cutting a person down, witholding affection, emotional manipulation..The list goes on. Many people (men and women, men in this case) will latch on to someone who treats them that way. That doesn’t make it ok. Being a woman does not give you a free pass. The thought of doing it purposely to selfishly gain misguided devotion is kind of twisted.
Go ahead and find that man of your dreams…Then break his balls till he’s hopelessly devoted to that bull-whip we lightly referr to as “bitchiness”. Sounds wonderfully fulfilling for both people involved.
If you want the right man for you to stick around, value your time, and love you unconditionally, just be you! Love yourself, honour yourself, live within your own personality. The right person will stick around and when he does, respect him! I just can’t see any other way to do it…
AR 14
Thank you for writing this. I struggle with these concepts, especially when I think about my last relationship. I was with a man who had a complicated relationship with his ex, and we talked about it, I asserted boundaries about what made me uncomfortable but I trusted him and took him at his word. Then when he dumped me he said I wasn’t dramatic enough for him which is something I never thought I would hear a man say.
Ruby 15
I hated Tracy McMillan’s Huffington Posts articles, so I doubt I’d read her book. Plus, I’m not sure that 3 divorces qualifies someone to be a relationship “expert.” But I did enjoy Sherry Argov’s “Why Men Love Bitches”, which really should be titled, “Why Men Don’t Love Doormats.” For Argov, being a bitch means standing your ground and not tolerating disrespectful treatment. I agree with EMK and Fusee (#4), that my previous relationship difficulties also stemmed from not having clear and firm boundaries, not because I was not a nice person. I think that telling single women to have more defined boundaries, and building their self-esteem is a lot more helpful than telling them how messed up or inadequate they are.
Once you have found a good guy, treating him just as well as he treats you makes for a healthy, balanced relationship. How can anyone disagree with that advice?
Zann 16
Great Job, Evan!
See? Even I can be nice sometimes.
The world is thick with black & white thinking. It’s in politics, finance, the way we approach fitness, food, consumption, religion/spirituality, and definitely intimate relationships. I think people find comfort in hard & fast rules simply because it’s just plain easier. Better to have a Book of Rules than having to think on our feet, assess each situation, struggle with it, and find the balance. Then, when you’ve gone by the book, and it still doesn’t work out, you get to blame it on the source instead of taking personal responsibility or just sucking it up and realizing that most things involving human behavior don’t work by a formula or precise code.
At the risk of sounding like a bee-yaaatch…. regarding Stacy’s comment (#2), “Men are like toddlers.” Not only is that pretty insulting, but it’s the perfect example of yet another rule dressed up to look like a boundary. Personally, I don’t want to “train” a man to do anything, thanks, much less want to be with a man who would LET me train him. If a guy allows you to treat him like a toddler, seems to me what you’ll wind up with is….well, a toddler. And I’m pretty sure that’s not what you want, and I’m very sure it’s not what I want.
Karl S 17
@Mirandah
Evin’s talking about someone you want for the long haul.
He *might* be the kind of guy who will jump into bed AND stick around for the relationship, but then again he might not. If you make him wait until you’re both ready to say “let’s commit to each other”, then you’ll be more certain he’s actually interested in you, and you’ll definitely weed out the fly-by-nighters.
Paula 18
I absolutely love it and agree completely!!
Goomena 19
Spot on! I think Evan hit the nail right on the head. Right, guys?
Paragon 20
@ Julia
“Why is it that when I am being a bitch, aka ignoring men that I have no interest in going out with again, men won’t leave me alone?”
Because, you are likely observing a spurious correlation(I wouldn’t expect you would be as likely to ignore those men who you ARE interested in seeing again – thus your behavior may be only spuriously correlated with their pursuit, and not the actual ’cause’).
@ Stacey
” Men are like toddlers – they will test the water to see exactly with how much BS they can get away with.”
This kind of behavior isn’t dependent on sex.
” good men respond well to such “training”"
Do ‘good’ women respond equally well?
Everyone has boundaries.
But, it occurs that what makes someone a ‘bitch’, is how unresaonable and selfish those boundaries tend to be.
@ Miranda
“Evan, this post is so spot on.
But I always wonder why this one thing keeps coming up:
If you have boundaries, you won’t sleep with a guy until he’s exclusive.
Why???? Why do I need to wait until we are exclusive just because I am female?”
The theme of the blog(and the standing assumption in many of its entries) is women looking for ‘love’.
Not women looking to ‘hook-up’(do women really need a blog for that?)
But, rational foresight should take into account what Oxytocin tends to do to women, once they get a ‘taste’?(ie. these kinds of chemical diversions are a liability, assuming a stable LTR is the goal).
Heather 21
@ Ruby,
Exactly. I really thought I’d had some boundaries, with my last serious relationship, but really, I didn’t. Once I left him, I realized that I had to learn basic stuff like: never allow a guy to ask you out at the last minute. It means that he probably had nothing else better to do, and you’re better than “nothing else better to do.”
I learned to turn down dates if I got a bad “gut feeling”, and to expect nothing less than kind, respectful behavior from a date. Even with my current boyfriend, when we first started talking online, he sent me his number. I sent a funny reply back and said, well tell ya what, here is MY number, I’m not that kinda girl, ya know!
He called me, 20 minutes later and said he respected that kind of mentality from me.
Boundaries saved me a TON of drama in dating and while it meant usually just 1-2 dates from alot of guys, it saved some good-sized heartache, and allowed me to enjoy my life.
My boyfriend says I am definitely ballsy and not a doormat, and I am glad I FINALLY learned those lessons. Otherwise I’d still be letting men take a mile, if I gave an inch. Oy.
BeenThruTheWars 22
Anyone who has actually READ Argov’s book knows that, to her, “BITCH” is an acronym – for “Babe In Total Control of Herself.” She doesn’t reveal that until very late in the book, which is unfortunate for those who give it only a cursory glance standing in the “Dating & Relationships” aisle at Barnes & Noble. Because, as Evan points out, it’s all about boundaries. Being in control of one’s own behavior (as opposed to trying to control other people, a futile endeavor) is the definition of “having boundaries.” Argov’s book is a humorous, fun and thought-provoking read for any woman who’s wondered how she can be a loving member of a relationship without becoming a doormat in the process.
Helen 23
I wish the term “bitch” did not get intertwined with the concept of setting boundaries. The two have nothing to do with each other. “Bitch” is a term used by abusive sorts to bully women who do not conform to their wishes. Women sometimes use this term themselves as an expression of empowerment, but it seems silly: going overboard, if you will.
There is no insulting term to describe a strong man. There should be no insulting term to describe a strong woman. Strong men and women can both be kind, goodhearted (even tenderhearted), and reasonable. As Evan suggested, it’s not an either/or proposition. Be true to yourself and decent to others. That is all.
Heather 24
BeenThruTheWars,
I did some serious skimming of that book a couple of years ago, and found that out about what she means by being a bitch. It’s totally spot on. We can’t control what a guy is going to do, but we CAN control how we respond, and can determine if what they did or said, works for us, and take action accordingly.
I used to be a real doormat, let guys jerk me around about dates, let them fool me into thinking they were into a relationship with me when they clearly were just looking for a hookup, etc. I finally learned to have a voice and say, “I’m sorry but that kind of behavior is upsetting to me, hurtful, inconsiderate, etc.” That book really helped me set boundaries for myself. Doing that really gave me more freedom than I ever imagined. I didn’t feel so used, and abused, and victimized. I felt in control and more powerful. Sure, I couldn’t “make” a guy call if he said he would, I could not make a guy not disappear. But I learned last year, that I could control how I handled the disappearing acts, especially the ones who would say, “I hope we can be friends” and instead of my doing the “Oh sure, we can do that!” mentality I used to have, I would politely say, I’m sorry but my friends treat me with respect and kindness and courtesy. I wish you no ill will but I also do not want to see nor talk to you again.
Boundaries are awesome! And men DO like a girl with a sense of boundaries and who loves and respects herself.
Kathleen 25
Yes you are right Been thru the WarsI #22
loved Argovs book It was hilarious but really makes great points It became my dating bible after I became single …. Plus Ive recommended it to my friends.
That was before I knew about Evan of course !!
Now if I can just get over how extremely unattractive most of these guys are that are contacting me on line are….LOL
Miranda 26
@Paragon
I never said I am NOT looking for love, I actually REALLY am. But no matter how much oxytocin is flooding my body: I won’t fall in love with somebody who doesn’t make me feel good. All good relationships I had started easy, without much insecurity. If a guy doesn’t make me feel good pretty soon and leaves me hanging on, he is not somebody I want to committ to. But I guess that is the core issue of most people on here, they prefer to chase a dream or an illusion…
Speaking of boundaries, why would any woman want a guy for a relationship who clearly doesn’t know how to love her? Why not see him as what he is, a person not able to give her what she needs.
And all I am saying is: If he is not treating me well as a person, we might still get along in bed, and I would like to enjoy that type of thing while it lasts.
Ruby 27
Heather #24
Agreed. Unfortunately, I learned that “I hope we can be friends” too often means, “I know I acted like a jerk and I hope you don’t hate me.” Or the man has a hidden agenda; I’ve sensed that some men weren’t happy in their current relationships, and wanted to keep the door open in case they decided to reconnect in the future.
Kate 28
Well, I have slowly learn how to enforce boundaries too (I hope). However, some times I am wondering whether the way you enforce the boundary makes all the difference between make and break in a relationship. For example, Evan says that men will want sex and it is up to us women to reveal little by little and playfully. I have been known to act insulted if some men wanted sex after a couple of dates, thinking they are only after that, but retrospectively maybe the way I refused was a deal-breaker for them and this is why they vanished when they did not get it?
Also, other times, I think is it best perhaps to just give a “mulligan” (I read that wonderful letter written by Evan’s wife when she was still his girlfriend) and remember that men are human too and make mistakes? If we give them grief and enforce our boundaries and show our disappointment about too many things again it cannot be good, isn’t it?
Catherine 29
I agree we want a nice guy with balls and I concur that when it comes to a long term relationship men want a “” nice woman”". however, you do need to hook the guy in initially, ie look hot so he will then discover all your good personal qualities.
if you just look hot and then he discovers you are a bitch , he will be outta there pretty fast.
Heather 30
@ Kate,
Well I hear where you are coming from. However, if a guy is really misbehaving, or is really pushing the issue, then you have every right to be insulted, if he’s truly insulted you. I’ve been insulted on a few first dates and I made it pretty damn clear that I wasn’t going to put up with that kind of behavior. If they felt it was a dealbreaker that I stood up for myself, well then, too bad. We have the right to stand up for ourselves and if a guy has a problem with it, well then there’s a red flag right there.
@ Ruby:
I agree with you. I got the vibe when I’d get the “I hope we can be friends” line that what they’re saying is, yep, I was an idiot but I don’t want to be the bad guy.” I had no problem with letting them be the bad guy, if they misbehaved. Which was why I told them, “No, we cannot be friends, since my FRIENDS don’t treat me like you just did.” I can forgive, but I don’t let people off the hook for their behaviors, cover for them, nor make excuses. If they did wrong, they did wrong, and they need to own that. I don’t want a man who can’t be accountable for his behavior, that’s cowardly.
maria 31
PERFECT TIMING!!!!! LOVE THIS! THANK YOU!
Bill 32
Women and men spend a lot of time trying to hook a person who is out of there league. Wouldn’t it just be easier to date someone who is actually interested in having a relationship with you in the first place. Yes some women have the powers but most do not. If it has not worked out for you maybe it is time to either date a guy who is actually interested in having a relationship with you or make yourself two points hotter because being physically attractive will make a difference no matter how you change your personality.
Michelle 33
“I have been known to act insulted if some men wanted sex after a couple of dates, thinking they are only after that,”
Once you can accept that this is how men are instinctively and biologically, and they have no control over their desire for sex, you might get more light hearted about it. I think you’re right, it’s the insulted attitude that gave them they impression you don’t understand men and how fun are you really going to be over the long term? They don’t need it then and there (and can’t blame a guy for trying), however, they DO want to know it’s coming soon. And if they press after being told no, then that’s the time to get FIRM (not bitchy) about your boundaries.
Boundaries are about replacing holes with doors, so you control what you let into your ’personal space’ (not just physical space, emotional as well) or not. That has nothing to do with a man making mistakes. Come from the heart, assume good intentions unless he actually PROVES otherwise–and you can never go wrong. Look for BIG character flaws and significantly different beliefs, compatability–the rest of it is going to have to laughed at or tolerated, no one is perfect. And believe me, he’s having to tolerate too, men just seem to do that better than women.
And switch it up…would you like a man constantly calling into question your intentions and integrity (I’ve had that happen, NOT pleasant and it was offensive to me)? Would you like a man to constantly show disappointment in you, that you were constantly making him unhappy?
Finally, men are NOT women.
Mia 34
I find it interesting that so many women who comment on this blog talk about the experience of being pushed or propositioned for sex on the first couple dates. That has actually NEVER happened to me. About half of my dates in recent history have been from online, the other half through friends, professional circles, bars, or set ups of some kind, but in any case none of these men (age range 27-35) so much as brought up sex even though they clearly found me attractive and eventually tried to kiss me and definitely after 4-6 dates went for more. It really hasn’t come up for me as a tenser issue until maybe the fifth date or so, and even then hardly anybody has been disrespectful. One guy on the third date – a very handsome one, at that – did keep slobbering over me while having drinks and repeatedly telling me how I had a sexy body and a nice chest, etc. (I wasn’t dressed revealingly) which was really gross and crass, but that was an anomaly.
I’ve never even had a guy I met through online dating lie to me about his age or height or look different than his photos – everyone I’ve met on match so far is fairly cute and can carry on a normal conversation.
The tougher thing has been finding a guy who follows up promptly, who wants to see me often and incorporate me into his life and is in the right time in his life for a relationship. I think that’s why it’s been harder for me to set certain boundaries – I’m not running into guys who are overtly propositioning sex, or who are stalkers, freaks, or liars, and I have been maintaining such an independent outside life that I’m definitely not viewed by anyone as some doormat that is giving up her life for any guy. The situations that call for me to be more of a “bitch” seem to be a lot more nuanced, like men who don’t call to see you at the last minute, but still give only 24 hour notice. Or … who call you just often enough to be passable, but not often enough that you feel entirely comfortable with his effort. Or let eight dates go by over more than a month with no talk about where things are heading or exclusivity. Ugh!
Rachael 35
Michelle: “And switch it up…would you like a man constantly calling into question your intentions and integrity (I’ve had that happen, NOT pleasant and it was offensive to me)? Would you like a man to constantly show disappointment in you, that you were constantly making him unhappy? ”
Bingo!
I’ve never experienced this, but I can imagine it would not be pleasant. So why, I wonder, do some women think this is ok? I did it alot myself to my ex-husband, but only after he cheated and it didn’t go on long before I realized the street I was headed down and asked him to leave. I couldn’t live with MYSELF acting that way. I’m not even sure to this day why he did. Maybe he thought he’d get the old me back eventually…
Never again.
nathan 36
Michelle, men are not all sex hounds unable to “control” themselves. We are not all rushing to get in a woman’s pants – that’s such a seriously tired old cliche. Why is it that some women play this higher moral ground card all the time? Women and men both want sex. Both are considering it when going on dates with people they are attracted to. It’s just that we are sometimes on a different page when it comes to timing.
Oh, and to Stacy back at #2 – stop dating toddlers. They’re making you bitter. Men don’t require “training,” but we do require some respect and understanding. As adults. You want to date an adult, drop the toddler mindset. Class dismissed.
Paragon 37
@ Miranda
“ I never said I am NOT looking for love, I actually REALLY am. But no matter how much oxytocin is flooding my body: I won’t fall in love with somebody who doesn’t make me feel good.”
That’s a pretty ironic statement, considering what oxytocin has been demonstrated to do.
“ If a guy doesn’t make me feel good pretty soon and leaves me hanging on, he is not somebody I want to committ to.”
And what about if he is someone that DOES make you feel good(but still leaves you hanging)?
“ Speaking of boundaries, why would any woman want a guy for a relationship who clearly doesn’t know how to love her? ”
For a myriad of irrational reasons documented throughout this blog, and left by countless women who, in retrospect, claim they ‘should have known better at the time…’.
Daria (Ria) 38
Agree with Bill @32
Heather 39
@ Mia,
You are seriously one very lucky woman, then. When I left Match, I came very close to writing them a letter telling them that a more appropriate name for them would be “LiarLiarPantsOnFire.com” because unfortunately, that’s the majority of the men I met on there for my area. Alot of them lied about age, weight, height, a few about marital status (I reported one to Match), or desire for a relationship.
Many, many online dates I had, tried to push for sex on the first date, and would get downright upset if I politely but firmly said “No.” One told me that I had trust issues. I had to fight hard not to say, “Well of course I have trust issues! I don’t trust assholes!”
The “bitchiness” you describe about guys giving you notice about dates, well I think that’s totally warranted. I’ve told some guys who see no problem with it: put the shoe on the other foot. Would YOU like to be treated like that? And most guys do say: No, actually I wouldn’t. I said that once to a guy who cancelled a first date but wanted to reschedule. He tried to follow up with me later to tell me “he hadn’t forgotten about me and still wanted to meet me” but I left that email unanswered. They say that you teach people how to treat you, and the way I saw it, allowing him to reschedule at the last minute once, means that he might do it again, and I’d had too many experiences with that and didn’t want to do that. I had to learn to set boundaries for myself, and that was one of them.
Ellen 40
Wow, Heather where do you live? I have a bf now, come here ’cause I’m fascinated by male/female differences, but hated dating in SC as well. 3 long, long years….
In general the men here MIGHT be a little more respectful, given it’s primarily a conservative state (the coast is liberal, Democratic more though) and Southern women of a certain social class are intolerant of rude behavior, being asked out last minute, etc. so I was treated well for the most part. Once in relationships, though, esp. with “Yankees” and in particular I’m thinking of a guy from Seattle and another from NYC, I was treated like total crap after a while. Oh, the NYC guy was a conservative Italian but that didn’t stop him from taking me for granted and thinking I would be ok with him having sex elsewhere occasionally.
The Seattle guy was awful about returning texts, calling, making firm dates. He was too tired all the time, pulled long hrs. where he worked, but being a lifetime bachelor just didn’t care much about my feelings. Once openly stared at other attractive females. Had no desire to find “the one”. He was Hollywood handsome and apparently liked the lifestyle. Also, huge co%k so that vanity…..
I have tons of self esteem, but swear I stayed with each a little too long (several weeks only) so as not to jump back in that awful, shark-infested dating pool.
Here in SC I didn’t date that many men who lied I think, but if they did, it was mainly about wanting a relationship. Few actually did. They were the typically cynical, 50+ guy who just wanted to score- repeatedly. It’s why I went in the direction of younger men for about two years….
Mercifully, I was not pressed for sex, but then I project a “good girl” vibe for the most part. I am probably very confusing*- I project this good girl, sophisticated, educated, sane, sweet vibe but have a killer, 36C-D bod I’ve been told. So, yeah, guys always wanted to have me, but knew instinctively not to press the issue maybe. Some were total gentlemen that way. Others, well, there was no second date, despite a great first, so I knew it was ’cause I didn’t “put out”. Most of the time, if I wanted to, I dated til I pulled the plug. Only two men pulled the plug first, and one of those was a golddigger. lol
*two or three of my typically 7 online photos were provocative in the sense that I was wearing shorts, or fu*k me heels, or in a bikini. The bikini shot I would only put online for a few days at a time to see the reaction I got. lol Then I would think better of it and pull it for months at a time. I never could ultimately decide, but I wanted to get emails, attract men. My bad I guess.
Because I am an alpha female, though, I was told by two men I was ”an acquired taste”, code for “you are not submissive enough” I guess. lol
From what I’ve read here I would NOT date in NYC, Southern CA and maybe a few other areas. DC perhaps. Those men sound like nightmares to me.
Joe 41
@ Michelle #33:
Good analogy–good men don’t care if there are doors that are currently shut, as long as they aren’t locked.
DinaStrange 42
I don’t understand why do you need to set boundaries? Why can’t a person have the boundaries in the first place. I mean, what is actually happening to our society, we are like wolves trying to get that pound of flesh, only to be bitten by another wolf trying to take it away from us.
Seriously screwed up society.
Ruby 43
I don’t think that setting boundaries necessarily has to do with putting off sex. As EMK wrote, it’s about basic assertiveness. If a man says or does something that you find upsetting, you simply tell him. You don’t spend a lot of time tolerating someone who disregards your feelings. It can also be as simple as pulling back from the other person too. If a man says that he’ll call you “tomorrow”, but doesn’t get around to it until 5 days later, you might choose to mention it, or you just might not be available when he finally does call.
It’s tricky, though, because in the early stages of dating, men tend to move more slowly and need more time to make up their minds. However, that doesn’t mean that a man should gives mixed signals or behave rudely. Setting boundaries is what earns a woman respect. I think that oftentimes, we women worry too much about getting the man’s approval, rather than realizing that dating is a time for us to evaluate a guy’s behavior and his potential as a long-term partner.
Liz 44
There is a huge difference between being a “bitch” and being responsive and receptive. I would never be rude, dismissive, or a “bitch,” to anyone. No cancellations, no refusing to respond to calls or texts. No being flighty about plans or juggling massive amounts of men until “Mr. Right” values me. Because I wouldn’t want someone to do that to me. If they do, I won’t see them again.
That being said, if you want to see me, and have me in your life, you will make it happen-I can’t cajole you there. It really is that simple. I won’t capture you by being a “bitch” or the polar opposite. There isn’t a magic potion to all this. The best advice I have ever heard, is be the person you want to meet. Things will progress because you are sexually attracted to me, we have a ton in common, it feels easy and care free, and we both want a relationship. There are tons of first dates that don’t melt into second dates, and for the most part, I think it is because my boundaries are inherent. Does this mean some nights I stay home because I don’t accept a date at noon that day? Yeps. Does it mean I don’t get called back from the “lets see what happens, I just want to have fun” types? But what is left is a whole bunch of guys that line-up just perfectly! And I get to go to the gym, get massages, do yoga and see my friends. Granted I would like to be able to have more sex with the same partner, consistently, but that makes me batty without the relationship part.
Julia 45
@Heather
What kind of men are you attracting? This has happened to me maybe once, I never have men push me for sex and always feeling 100% in control of when I will have sex.
Rachael 46
@julia
agreed! I’ve never been pushed or pressured. Of course they put the moves on, but have always allowed me to be in control of the when and where and how of it all. In my experience all the men I have dated have been very gentlemanly about sex. Even the ones who wanted a “no strings” type thing.
Heres how it goes: the ones who don’t want strings have said (nearly the exact same thing) “if you don’t want to that’s cool”. The ones who want a relationship have said “we don’t have to do it until you’re ready.” or “It’s ok if you’re not ready we can wait.” None have pressured or been amgry if I said no.
Fusee 47
@Kate #28: “However, some times I am wondering whether the way you enforce the boundary makes all the difference between make and break in a relationship.”
Well, yes, but it depends if we are really talking about a boundary statement/enforcement, or a punishment/judgment. To me a boundary is the external manifestation of an internal value, therefore me stating/enforcing my boundaries is the expression of my bare-bone standards. A kind of user’s manual to follow if you seek to be part of my life. No hole or even door in my boundaries. Doors are passageways from my external circle to my more intimate circle, while my boundaries are permanent and unconditional.
Since people have different values, it is unavoidable for people to run into each other’s boundaries as they interact more intimately with one another. Some people are more empathetic and gentle and tend to test boundaries less, while others are more blunt and straight to the point. It’s okay to test a boundary. They do not know your values and they want to know what works for you and what does not. What is not okay is to pressure someone after they have expressed their boundary. When a boundary is tested, words, behavior, and actions must match to demonstrate the existence of a boundary, or enforce it if needed.
The most effective approach to express/enforce a boundary is to proceed with a perfect blend of consideration and firmness. This is how the message is best conveyed and in case a second chance is an option, this is how to garantee the best results upon granting the second chance. If no second chance is possible, this is how the other party is the most likely to learn something from the experience. Over-reacting, “acting insulted”, showing disrespect in return is not enforcing a boundary; it is potentially violating the other party’s boundaries by passing judgement and insulting their own values.
On the first few dates when any faux-pas does not usually lead to second chances, passing judgement by words, body-language, or attitude is a sure way to failure. Who wants to feel judged and criticized? If they ask for sex (who can blame them to try in these times of easy casual sex that so many sadly consent to engage into?) and you do not want to go there, simply stop, look at them in the eyes, and explain your values in a short considerate and firm statement. When it’s done, take a deep breath, and go back to being the fun and interesting woman that they are so attracted to. If they keep pushing for it, then you know what you need to do. With a perfect blend of consideration and firmness.
Heather 48
@ Ellen and Julia:
Well here in DC, it’s a really interesting dating pool. There are a TON of alpha male types, because this is a powerful city/area, and so what I think happens, is that alot of these guys carry out the workplace mentality, into the dating pool. And that is a huge turnoff for me. Is EVERY guy here like that? No. But I have heard a few friends here in the area, tell me the same thing, so I know it’s not just me.
I did my best to make sure I wasn’t coming across as too flirtatious or whatnot, but also made sure I balanced it by not acting like a total prude, either. Meaning, I was fine with kissing on the first date but more than that, probably not so much. But unfortunately, that’s just what goes on here, alot of men (and I am sure women too, so I’m not guy bashing here) want what they want, when they want it, and I witness it alot in the workplace too, alot of patients getting very nasty very quickly, if not given their way, right away.
It was getting extremely frustrating to date here, even though I was very proud of myself for not allowing a guy to bust my boundaries. Like another poster said. Did it mean that I was at home some Friday and Saturday nights, because a guy asked at the last minute, or backed out, then wanted to reschedule? You betcha. Did it mean there were alot of guys who didn’t call back because I wouldn’t “put out”? Yep. But it taught me to value myself and respect myself, and that if a guy couldn’t respect my needs and values, then he wasn’t a guy worth having, anyways. Sometimes it was cold comfort indeed, but I knew that I had to stick up for myself or everyone would just trample all over me and I’d be miserable.
I did consider looking in another area to meet someone, since I was hoping to eventually relocate to Philadelphia, but then I met my guy. DC is just a tough area to date, and both men and women will tell you that.
Mia 49
Yeah, I simply don’t believe that men are sex-crazed beasts out for only one thing that we women need to tame. I’ve only been strung along for sex a couple times in the last 10 years. I do think men are too driven by checklists and the myth of instant chemistry, but that’s different from solely prowling for their next lay and insulting women with sex talk on a first date. Perhaps I think this way bc most men I go on a date with are confident and have SOME game , so they know it wouldn’t work to push me when we hardly know each other.
I also have a little sympathy for guys in this regard bc as an attractive young woman with a high sex drive I can sleep with a hot guy whenever I want. But it must be awful as a man not in the top 20 percent to actually have to work for sex and plough through dozens of rejections to get it. I’m sure these poor guys just get frustrated and let out their angst in offensive ways inadvertently.
Catherine 50
HI Mia-re 49 some men are “sex crazed beasts out for only one thing”" but others are not. One just has to weed through them to find the good ones.
As for sex talk on the first date, try going to speed dating and finding a guy is telling that his penis is pierced in under 5minutes of meeting you! Now the guy may be a socially inept doofus but if a man doesn’t know how to behave in his late 30s / 40s will he ever? Certainly I have struck numerous guys who basically have said “so when are we going to have sex? “” on the first date and I’m a conservatively dressed, good girl.One just wonders whether these guys have read one’s profile or are retarded if they can’t sum up the nature of the woman in front of them.
Mia 51
Heather, I just moved out of Philly – and while dating somewhere like dc is my worst nightmare (grew up there, but left after hs), it’s not like Philly was a great situation either. While I was bombarded with responses on match there, nothing came of it, and in general I find the people in my new Midwestern city to be better quality, even if I hardly get any responses onlinewith the same photos. I think it’s a racial thing, since I continue to meet many men in real life who are at least physically attracted to me. Then again, men may be similar anywhere – when I was talking to a Midwestern guy about how they all seem so much more gentlemanly, he smiled and said, Men are the same, it’s just that out here we’re more polite about it.
Paula 52
I’ve read the Why Men love Bitches and actually think her second book Why Men Marry Bitches was better. The first seemed to be too much game playing and the other was more authentic.
As EMK mentions, being a bitch according to this book is to have boundaries. Also, in the beginning, we are to be wooed so we shouldn’t be doing all these nice things for the man. He is the suitor and should do the majority of the work in the beginning.
In the beginning, I think doing something nice to the ratio of 3:1 is best. If the man does something nice for me and takes me out for dinner or dates 3 times then maybe the next date would be me doing something nice but nothing too big.
One reader here said she thought that book was teaching her to be a doormat I think misunderstood the concept. It’s about acting like a lady. If a man does something disrespectful, you do not be passive or act cool or act like some emotional loonie. You state your boundaries and how you expected to be treated in a calm manner. She emphasizes being calm and rational but one can still set boundaries. It seems like men will tune us out if we are being overly emotional and freaking out. But then, don’t women want to deal with people who are emotionally mature and not some man who is wailing and pouting to get his way?
Argov only used that Bitch title as a marketing gimmick and if you read the contents, it’s obviously not about being a bitch but being empowered and having standards for yourself
Heather 53
@ Mia,
That very well could be; when I lived in Philly, I was married so had no idea what the dating pool was truly like. I met a number of very nice men in my travels though, and I did date one that I’d been friends with for awhile, after I got divorced. He was a very good guy, unfortunately there were just too many obstacles for us to work out, and it broke my heart that we could not work it out. I guess because I’d had better experiences with men in Philly, made me think that it would be easier to date there. Plus the absence of true alpha males I think made me feel more comfortable up there.
I got a chuckle out of your comment about dating in DC being your worst nightmare, and honey, you are speaking truth! Heck, even guys tell me it sucks to date here. My guy has told me some pretty crazy stories about women he met here. He’s actually from the Midwest and very gentlemanly, and never pressures me for anything. Midwestern men are much more polite about what they want, it seems.
Julia 54
I live in Philly, its very hard to date here.
Rochelle 55
I’ve been the “too nice” woman and been the “too bitchy”..I have a naturally calm sweet demeanor most of the time, and still sometimes catch myself being the former, but sometimes depending on what the guy did, I will give him a mulligan. When I was one extreme or the other, friends would tell me how I was wrong for behaving that way. (Friends can give really confusing advice sometimes and I don’t really go to them for it anymore lol) It was so frustrating but now I get it. It really is a matter of showing that you value yourself but also making a man feel good. Once I understood why being too nice was sending the message “I’m a doormat who will tolerate anything” it became easier to change that. I feel like men do test our boundaries and a lot of the time they aren’t even doing it deliberately, but ones who do it all the time and on purpose aren’t acceptable.
Jackie 56
Might be the best blog yet! I periodically ask myself this question! It really is all about the right balance. In this sense, men and women aren’t that different, and they want to the same thing.
Thanks for posting Evan!
sammi 57
Thanks Evan, you give a balanced view and find your articles honest and refreshing.
mindlessthinker 58
Ok. I am career-minded, have my own goals, am very assertive, have very strict boundaries, and guys still don’t go for me.
The more I read stuff about “should I be a bitch?” and “being a bitch means having boundaries” (other articles) and “men love assertiveness” the less I believe it based on my own experience. According to the people who write these articles, my personality is either completely right, or completely wrong, but there is still the fact that being myself never works.
People tend to complain that I’m very cold and that I never open up to anyone about anything (which I have never seen as a problem) and then when I do, things turn out shitty. Furthermore, being quiet gets me losers and being outgoing gets me abusive assholes. As far as I’m concerned, this whole “dating game” is bullshit and we should all just live life alone. People who are loose can have unplanned children with their one-night stands and that way there will be no worries about the human race continuing.
Mickey 59
” good men respond well to such “training”
Training? What is he…a seal???
Omiz 60
LIFE IS MUCH SIMPLER THAN THIS LADIES!!! JUST LIKE THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A “NICE GUY” AND A “GOOD GUY”, THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN “NICE GIRL” AND “GOOD GIRL”. YES, GUYS LOVE STRONG GIRLS..BUT BITCHES? NO. JUST LIKE A GIRL WHO WANTS A STRONG, KIND, LOVING, CARING AND ASSERTIVE MAN (GOOD GUY)AND NOT SOME ASS HOLE WHO IS STRONG AND ASSERTIVE BUT IS A JERK, GUY WANT A KIND, LOVING AND CARING STRONG WOMAN. ITS AS EASY AS THAT. NO BITCHES ..NO ASS HOLES..NO DOORMATS..SIMPLY YOU. BE YOURSELF. HAVE VALUES. SET BOUNDARIES. LIVE LIFE AND BE VIBRANT. A GOOD MAN WILL FIND YOU.