Do Nice Women Finish Last? Absolutely Not!
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You have to break the cycle of insanity, sweetheart. Otherwise it’s an eye-for-an-eye, where everyone is left blind. Or single.
Your logical mistake is in thinking that there’s a correlation between how nice you acted and how your boyfriend withdrew. Because if you were the perfect girlfriend, and he pulled away from you during this time, it just means that he’s NOT the man you want to marry. End of story. Good men respond to good treatment. And if he can’t take you being unconditionally good to him, I’d say that’s a fatal flaw in the relationship, wouldn’t you? Same way I’d tell any nice guy not to put up with bullshit with a woman who actually wants a bad boy. Let the bad boys and bad girls terrorize each other. I’m trying to foster good, healthy, nurturing relationships. That begins with being a giver, not a taker.
You can be smart. You can be strong. You can have your opinions. You just have to put your ego aside for the sake of a relationship that’s bigger than you.
Your belief in “Why Men Love Bitches” is a very simplified version of the world, but it’s not that much different from my Nice Guys With Balls theory. You can be smart. You can be strong. You can have your opinions. You just have to put your ego aside for the sake of a relationship that’s bigger than you. Since I know you, Tamara, I have a feeling that your boyfriend isn’t entirely at fault here and that you let your ego and worldview of how things are “supposed to be” get in the way of your relationship. You’re more interested in being “right” than you are in keeping the peace. But that’s another conversation for another day.
The real point is that if you’re going to be building a life together, the ONLY way to do it is through empathy, generosity, and selflessness. Your suggestion might lead to some smitten guy who chases you around like a puppy dog because he thinks you’re hot…it just doesn’t lead to equality or long-term peace. Take your ego out of it, start thinking long-term, and realize that the guy you want to keep will LOVE being treated well.
Thanks for your question. Your comments below are appreciated.
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55 Comments »Filed Under Dating Tips & Advice, Sex & Relationship Advice
Steve 1
Translation:
if you can’t who you want to you are in a relationship the problem is not with being nice, but who you are in the relationship with.
Robin 2
I think the?following is the translation for Steve’s comment:
If you can’t be who you want to be in a relationship, the problem is not being nice, but whom you’re in a relationship with. Sorry, Steve!
Rob
starthrower68 3
A woman can be nice and treat a man well; just set healthy boundaries and enforce them.? A man respects a doormat no more than a woman respects a wimp.
Reema 4
Being nice to a man could be interpreted as being needy and emotional. It depends on how nice you treat him Tamara…
Diana 5
Evan, I hope your dear wife is doing well. It is always interesting to read so many different perspectives on relationship issues.
?
It sounds to me as if Tamara is not meeting the kind of men that she is truly interested in, but she tolerates them to a point. Maybe she likes the powerful feeling she gets from how these men are immediately into her, while she can be nonchalant and noncommittal about it all. Yes, it does sound like a role reversal.? Then she met someone that caught her off guard, and she fell for him, only to become overtly nice and have him slack off. This doesn’t mean nice girls finish last. It means he wasn’t the right one for her. He’s likely this way with every woman he wins over.
?
Maybe he chased her so hard because of wanting sex. A lot of men come on strong in the early stages, and then flame out. When Tamara’s feelings began to deepen, she may have compromised herself too much, such as going against her beliefs. I wonder if those beliefs were also sexual. There is such a thing as giving too much. Sometimes people start to lose respect for you. They treat you poorly and take advantage of you because they know they can.
?
As starthrower said, it’s about having healthy boundaries. It should be an equal give and take throughout the relationship. If it’s not, then they are not the one for you, unless you enjoy being a doormat.
Shay 6
Thanks Evans for the nice answer!
Actually, its true….if the guy is like that, probably he is already comfortable with the relationship.
Jackie 7
I’ve been in Tamara’s situation. When the guy was hot after me, I appeared confident and happy. ?When the tide changed and I became more vulnerable to the guy, all my insecurities surfaced. I appeared nice and giving, but was, in fact, very desperate for love. ?The right guy will still love you when he realizes you are not perfect. The wrong guy will run. Of course, the best solution is to find a way to feel more secure about yourself. ?*Evan, your advice constantly reminds women like me that men aren’t the enemies. ?Just reading your blog has created major shifts in the way I approach men. And, yes, the men are responding positively. I cringe at times when your advice exposes the fatal dating mistakes that I’ve made in the past. ?I’ve only been a fan for a few months and for the first time ( I’m in my mid ?30′s) I did not get derailed when that Tall, Hot, Young Investment Banker did not return a call. ?Heck, I should buy something from you soon as a token of gratitude. Years of ?therapy $$$ hasn’t been as helpful as your simple blog.
Luxe 8
I’m so glad I just found this blog! There are lots of insightful information regarding men, women, and relationships. Everyone’s comments are great too!
?
My past relationships wasn’t exactly the same, but I felt similar feelings to the OP at some point. Hearing a new perspective on the whole thing gives me a better understanding then going to my girlfriends to reinforce my “guys love bitches” attitude I fell into sometimes
?
I think the main thing is when you do fall for someone, to not lose yourself in the process. This is something I will be working on myself. Compromise, be loving, be generous, be thoughtful.. which (to me) equates to being nice… just don’t turn into someone you’re not.
Heather 9
I’m sorry, but she dated the guy for TWO MONTHS while having little or no interest in him?? I’ve never heard of a man having to endure this type of torture – and this is my problem with the whole human courtship thing.? It simply is not fair.? Women who give the guy they aren’t particularly interested in a shot for that long of a time are not only nice, they are saints!
And … if he gets all comfortable with the relationship that quickly, perhaps her initial instinct not to be interested was cluing her into something.? What a jerk!? It all goes to show that desperation to woo or to change one’s opinion gets us nowhere in love.
Lorianne 10
@ EMK –? you know those “advice” sources for men that you always talk about?? You know, the ones that teach men how to be “players” and “keep women in line?”? Guess what, that’s EXACTLY the kind of “advice” they are giving to men.? And you know what else?? A lot of men are eating it up.? Maybe we don’t want to perpetuate the same sort of thing for women,? but in my experience, men respect me when I let it be known upfront? that I don’t think they are all that, and that I am about no BS of any kind.?? Oh, and that they aren’t getting any from me.?? I don’t see it as being a bitch, but merely as self-protection from being used and abused, then cast aside for the next conquest.
Mika 11
Yes, it’s true that when you fall in love, you lose control over yourself to a certain degree, depending on how well you actually know yourself. After my divorce from my ex husband of almost 11 years, I’ve come to realize that I barely knew myself when I got married and I barely know myself now after I got divorced. Life and relationships in particular are not about destination, it’s about a journey of getting to know your own self thoroughly. Don’t look at the person you are/were involved with as a destination, but try to look at yourself first and try to figure yourself out first. I bet there is a lot of people in the Datingland who didn’t figure it out for themselves yet, which exactly is the very reason why there are a lot of frustration and disappointment in that department. One thing I totally agree with Evan is that always look at yourself first. Your partner is not entitled to make you happy. Unfortunately, there is a lot of stereotypes and stigma surrounding the topic of relationships between men and women. However, ultimately it all boils down to one thing –if you can’t reach that equilibrium that makes both of you happy within your relationship, then there’s no point to blame anyone or even worse, try to become someone who you actually aren’t. It just isn’t a relationship for you. Good job Evan. I am very impressed.
Evan Marc Katz 12
@Heather – So if a man strings along a woman whom he’s unsure about for two months, he’s a selfish ass; if a woman does the same thing, she’s a saint. Can you see how you’re naturally biased in favor of the woman, when the exact same behavior is taking place?
@Lorianne – Keep telling men that they’re not all that, that you don’t put up with BS and that they’re not getting any from you. This is the exact opposite of my warmth, generosity and openness strategy and I’d be shocked if you found a guy who felt good around you.
I’d highly encourage both of you to just absorb these messages, instead of always looking for the negative spin about what’s wrong with men. If I didn’t care about your well-being, I wouldn’t even comment here, but your perspectives on men are only going to lead to more fractured relationships. Leave the negativity behind, for your own sake!
anette 13
heheh, boy I’ve had this same problem and I see it tme and time again in women I know. The guy goes nuts in the beginning, girl falls in love, guy gets complacent.
Next step is girl doing things that are super nice, not because she really wants to, but because she wants him to love her. He feels manipulated, starts to pull away…and on and on and on.
Yeah, learning not to lose yourself is the key.
I honestly think this pattern can cause people to end up with a fear or intimacy. Got to just slow things down and alway’s be oneself no matter what.
Diana 14
IMHO, I didn’t find Tamara’s behavior during the initial two months to be nice or saintly. I don’t think she was sacrificing herself in any way. She simply tolerated him and strung him along, while receiving some kind of emotional payout. Exactly what I do not know. In a way, given her lack of interest in the beginning, and then his near the end, they both got a taste of their own medicine. What goes around comes around.
?
Why would anyone “duty date” another person?? Somehow that doesn’t feel right to me. I think it’s misleading. Why give someone? the least you can, but just enough to keep yourself in a relationship, when it doesn’t sound like you’re interested in the first place? What’s the point? If someone doesn’t put in any effort until they know where the relationship is going, how does the relationship truly start to begin with?! And where’s the authenticity? What am I missing here?
Deanna McNeil 15
Am I the only person who doesn’t know what “duty dating” is? Sounds bad. Can a relationship flourish when one person feels like they are there out of “duty”? Shrug, that was a flag to me that Tamara wasn’t approaching this with a positive attitude and EMK’s remarks seemed to agree.? I was so glad that Mika in the comments verbalized something I am still learning…all about me! The more I take responsibility for my own life, all of it, the happier I become. Thanks for the advice you offer here Evan.
I too wish your wife a speedy recovery
Lorianne 16
@EMK? I can be as warm and generous and open as anyone.?? And when a guy proves that he’s worthy of my love, he gets it, without conditions.? But just to lay myself bare and make myself vulnerable to every yoyo who’s read “How to Be a Player?”? Thanks but no.?? I do not have “WELCOME” stamped on my forehead.
Ruby 17
I don’t think Tamara was wrong for giving this man a chance. After all, she did fall in love with him. Some people only want what they can’t have, though, and isn’t that what most commonly-held “theories” of dating are based on, i.e., “play hard to get”, and “men love bitches”? In any case, he was the wrong guy, and often that’s not something we can know after only a couple of months.
?
Someone else seemed surprised that she dated him for two months before she became truly interested, as if that’s a shocking thing to do. Seems odder to me that at the point she decided she had feelings for him, he started to turn off, and yet HE kept it going for another SIX months while becoming increasingly disinterested.
?
Evan’s right, he doesn’t sound like such a good guy to me either.
Lady 18
This was a great read. A year and a bit ago, I might have taken the egoistical low road and agreed with the lady, right now i totally agree with your comment. my bf and i had a slump of that nature when my egoustacal friend couldnt stand the mutual respect my bf n i had and would say how i am too nice n how i should be a bitch. needless to say, it was tough being a bitch abd always being unhappy because it was a constant chase, a game that was mentally n emotionally exhausting. i told the friend one day that i was flying solo n worked on the ego issues with my bf. i havent been happier. he is now comfortable to be nice too knowing its no game but is a nice guy with balls who wont let me be all i’m gods gift to royalty. its mature and good. as for the friend. well her ego helped ruin great relationships and she has now settled with someone who couldnt have found a girl anyway. giving isnt such a bad thing. women think giving makes them worthless. in a right relationship giving makes the guy comfortable to want to give in return eventually, it just takes time n patience. men arent all emotional and giving right from the word go as wmen tend to be. great post. hope the girl who sent it getts off her high horse n decides happiness n content relationship is easier n better than a power play of genders
Mel 19
As difficult as it is for both parties to walk into a new date with no baggage or pre-concieved notions, I think that it has to be done in order meet each other on an equally healthy playing field. Check your baggage at the door, and yes men are vulnerable. We ladies have all went on dates with men who?exhibit their dating?trauma on the 1st date. I just walk away from those situations because they need time to sort it out or heal themself. There are so many theories that could suggest what may have or have not went wrong with Tamara’s situation, and everyone has touched a little on the possibilities. Our individual reasonings and personal experiences are not black or white…I think that she is just going thru that mourning period where we always question what could we have done differently, but unfortunately it was done a little to late after the guy probably realized that she was serious and he wasn’t. Sorry to say, but for all we know he may have been having sex with her just to punish her for rejecting him…who knows…guys have angry sex or just for the chase,?if a guy has sexual a.d.d. don’t beat yourself up about it…just move on.?It wasn’t her fault, other than the early dating went on?with a wall up & facade, that maybe if she wasnt busy protecting herself ..she could have been trying to really take a look at who this guy was in the 1st place. We learn something everytime we get hurt….I hope
?? I’m no expert as I’m still single, my fault is that I don’t use my “feminine wiles” but I would definatley try to get to know everything about who he is, without making it obvious…in casual conversation..picking up small cues, before you decide to put yourself in a completely vulnerable position. Some vulnerability is necc obviously to build the relationship, but like someone said..it is a give & take
Dria 20
Oh my!? I am SOOOOO glad you wrote about this topic, Evan.? My boyfriend and I have been dating for 3 months, but we have been friends for years.? Last night, he was kind enough to sit through a program with me that I knew most men would not enjoy-including my own.? It was tied to community service I perform in the local community, and because he knows how important my civic interests are to me, he not only attended, but he also refrained from complaining about the length of? the program-although he had a very early flight this morning.? Take my advice ladies, Evan KNOWS what he is talking about.? He has saved me from making many mistakes with this wonderful man, and Evan has truly directed me in alleviating the “negative spin syndrome”.?When?my guy?returns from long trips (he travels with his job) I make certain that I do something extra special for him each time. ?I do not know whether my guy and I will marry, but he is truly a dream boat- and he happens to be one of the “nice guys”.? Thanks, Evan.
Ronnie Ann Ryan - The Dating Coach 21
1 . Wow – duty dating?? If you aren’t interested, why bother dating the guy? I do believe in giving a man a chance but it sounds liek you might have been daitng this guy, just to date someone .
2. You don’t give of yourself until you see how things go? I think it’s smart not to overdo in the begining so you don’t scare a man away with too much nuturance. But it makes me wonder if you are you the co-dependent type who gives only to get??Do you bend over backwards to obtain love?
3. You did things that went against your principles? That’s a danger sign right there. When you compromise your principles, you undercut your self-esteemThat’s never a good thing for yourself or for a relationship
Evan, I agree with you – Tamara needs to revised the way she looks at relationships and get clear on what? healthy relationship looks and feels like. That’s my focus as a dating coach for the over 40 crowd.
Chery 22
I was in a similar relationship to Tamara’s?last year that ended in September…it has taken me 6-7 months to finally see that it wasn’t me being too nice or caring it was that he wasn’t the right person for me because he didn’t appreciate what I had to offer and I agree, that was his “fundamental flaw.”? Keep the faith ladies, I’m going to stick with the mindset that there are still good ones out there that will appreciate all we have to offer! Have a great week!
Karl R 23
Lorianne said: (#10)
“in my experience, men respect me when I let it be known upfront? that I don?t think they are all that,”
By reversing the Pick-Up Artists’ strategy you will have exactly the same kind of success that they do.
PUAs?get plenty of one-night stands. They get plenty of short relationships where the men get what they want out of the relationship (usually sex).
That’s why I don’t have any interest in what?PUAs do. My goals are different. They don’t teach men how to build a sustainable long-term relationship. Some of the PUAs’ strategies seem to sabotage that kind of goal.
Lorianne,
If you want a series of short-term relationships, you’re probably on the right track. If you’re looking for a long-term relationship, you’re approaching it the wrong way.
Lorianne said: (#16)
“I can be as warm and generous and open as anyone.?? And when a guy proves that he?s worthy of my love, he gets it, without conditions.”
There are some daters (men and women) who play games. There are some who don’t. If you start the relationship by playing games, you’re going to keep the interest of the men who play games and?lose the men who don’t.
After you spend enough time with one of these game players (the ones who are hooked on “the chase”), you’ll either realize that’s what he is (and ditch him), or you’ll mistakenly believe he’s worthy of your love and open yourself up to him unconditionally.
The game is over. The chase is done. What do you think will happen next?
Lorianne said: (#16)
“But just to lay myself bare and make myself vulnerable to every yoyo who?s read ‘How to Be a Player?’ Thanks but no.”
It’s possible to avoid playing games without throwing yourself heart-first into every relationship. I don’t have to be emotionally involved at all to tell a woman that I find her attractive, that I enjoy being with her, that I think she’s a wonderful person.
If the lady doesn’t reciprocate, if instead she tells me that she doesn’t think?I’m “all that,” I move on to another woman who is more interested. There’s no point in wasting my time and energy on someone who is clearly not interested.
sayanta 24
Lorianne-
Just curious- I assume you have female friends- when you meet a new woman, do you automatically act distant and unfriendly just in case she might be a bitch who might sleep with your husband (for talking’s sake) at some point down the road? I hope not. And for some reason, I doubt you do that. See- it’s the same line of thinking re: men.
Putting up your defenses is exhausting, and it tends to drain? your warmth, friendliness, and everything else that makes people want to get close. Take it from someone who’s learned that the hard way.
Joe 25
I read a book years ago by Judith Sills, called “A Fine Romance” that describes stages of relationships.? Her theory is that there is an initial pursuit phase, and at some point there’s a Switch phase, where the pursuer starts to retreat, just as the pursued person is warming up to the pursuer.? At that point, the couple enters the Negotiation phase where they work out their differences and whether or not they can continue together.? The OP’s case sounds like a Switch to me.
Oh,?also: I know this is teh intarweb, but I’m sure I’m not alone in that if?a post isn’t reasonably formatted, making it difficult to read, I just skip over it.
JerseyGirl 26
I don’t like “bad boys”. And I don’t like “nice guys”. I like “good men”. I suspect it’s the same for most women and men. However, sometimes external factors sway our perception into wanting to believe someone is good when their not, and unfortunetly, sometimes it sways us into thinking someone isn’t good that might be. Being “nice” isn’t enough and?I wouldn’t want it to be either. Can you imagine the romantic?wedding speech there? “I married her/him because she is so nice”. Boring and passionateless.
Lorianne 27
@Karl — I have been played exactly once in my life.? I learned my lesson and I haven’t been played since then.? And I don’t do one night stands.? So to answer your question, no, I don’t let down my defenses just because someone is patient about being a player.? There has to be more to it than that.??? I have several men friends as well.? I actually like men and get along well with them.? I just don’t let them get away with BS.
?
@sayanta — yes, I do have female friends.?? But I don’t trust anyone immediately.? For me, trust hast to be earned.? I was betrayed, badly, by people I should have been able to trust when I was quite young,? so trust is a major issue with me.? My closest friends understand that.? Casual acquaintances, not so much.? But no, I don’t act distant and unfriendly with ANYONE initially.?? On the other hand, I do tend to be reserved, and that does put some people off.? But I figure that’s the price to be paid? for keeping myself emotionally safe, and I’m willing to pay that price.
Honey 28
The LW’s logical fallacy is called post hoc ergo propter hoc (after the fact, therefore because of the fact – aka “false cause,” “coincidental correlation,” or “correlation not causation”).? It is simply not the case that because his loss of interest occurred after she opened herself up to him, that his loss of interest necessarily occurred because she opened herself up to him.? It just means, as EMK and others here have observed, that he’s not the right guy for her.
sayanta 29
Lorianne-
Ok, do what suits you. This is going to sound a little new-agey, but the price of having a closed heart is high. Then again, you’re willing to pay that price, so I guess it’s all good.
Honey 30
It’s impossible to tell what happened?for sure from the letter, mostly because she doesn’t explain how/why they finally broke up – who ended it, etc.
However, it’s definitely possible that during those first two months, the guy was going out of his way to make her happy and doing things that went against his beliefs in order to be with her.? Perhaps?once she started caring about him, he assumed that things would be more balanced.?
If she wasn’t willing to do that (or if she did it grudgingly and with poor grace),?it could be that the relationship ended when (after 6 months) he didn’t receive the same amount of compromise and consideration that he’d given for the first 2.
Again: obviously impossible to tell for sure, since she doesn’t give many details about the breakup.? But definitely a possible interpretation.
Ruby 31
Nothing wrong with Tamara giving this relationship a chance to develop, but it sounds like her initial instincts that the guy wasn’t quite right were accurate after all. I think women are often told to give a man a chance, even if we aren’t feeling it. The thing is, the man we’re not all that into can end up being just as much of a jerk as one we’re crazy about. And I also agree that compromising your beliefs is never a good idea.
Kelly Seal 32
Hi Evan,
Really nice article.? I’m glad you pointed this out, because dating is confusing enough with all of the games.? If we enter into a relationship with the expectation that the guy will not treat us well, likely it will happen.? And NOT treating him well first to avoid it seems silly when you think about it…of course it’s disaster waiting to happen.? Respect, kindness, and compassion are fundamentals of healthy relationships.? Manipulation and fear only cause us to avoid real intimacy with a partner.
Shay 33
Hmmm…I think its not right to swing to?either of the?extremes. Like “not putting in anything at all before knowing where the relationship will go” or giving it all up front.
I always remember what Evan said about the mirroring. I guess its same thing in the emotional aspects. I won’t determine so quickly to like or not like a guy.
Slowly, upon discovery then I guess I will mirror the guy’s efforts as trust builds up. Opening up and trusting is a gradual process. Not all or nothing. Unless, of course, I totally don’t see myself?with the guy for long.
Laine 34
Relationships are never at a standstill, but? are either moving closer together or moving apart. This is known as? relationship dynamics..or the dance that continually goes on between a couple. It is needed to have? healthy relating between a couple, in fact to have a loving and exciting relationship. Trouble occurs when it becomes unbalanced and one party starts to do all the pursuing, and the other distancing. The energy and control shifts. If you are aware of this, you need to pull back a little from the distancer. Just enough to give a healthy psychological space. This invites the one doing the distancing back toward you.
It sounds like the beginning of? Tamaras relationship was unbalanced…and now the balance of power is shifting to him. This can develop into a more healthy dynamic…but the psychological space is needed. I do not believe it is helpful to suggest that men/women are the wrong one for us..but rather take responsibility for our own behavior and accept how often this very behaviour is what pushes a partner away.
So Tamara, I dont think all is lost. Just pull back a little and create that space and see what happens.
Good luck !
Selena 35
I think this was a case of Tamara’s guy revealing his “true colors”.? Many of us are on our ‘best behavior’ when we?start dating someone new, we want to make a good impression. As the relationship becomes more comfortable, our truer selves are revealed-flaws and personality defects included. This guy likely knew instinctively what it would take for him to win a woman, then when he got her he could relax and be himself -? a guy who puts in?only the?minimum effort to keep her around. Two to?6 mos. sounds about right for that to happen.
Tamara thinks because she was mainly indifferent during the first two months, and more into him the next 6, that influenced his behavior.? That if she’d stayed indifferent, then he would have stayed eager and attentive for the duration of the relationship. I disagree, I think he would have become tired of pretending to be a great boyfriend and reverted to his true self regardless.?An example of the ?”correlation not causation”? fallacy Honey wrote of in #28.
Jennifer 36
#11 Mika- Love your comment. And I agree, it’s all about figuring yourself out first
Kat Wilder 37
Honestly, this relationship sounds dysfunctional from the beginning who wants to go out with someone you’re not into, who only gives “the least I could to keep him in the relationship” and only get swayed when he starts doting on her?
Um, Tamara needs to grow up; there’s nothing loving or kind about her attitude.
What it does reek of is game playing and one-upmanship. That’s not a relationship (although I’ve seen my share of those. Shudder! )
And if she doesn’t put any effort until I know where the relationship is going , I don’t blame any man for running away … fast. She’s toxic or insecure or both.
It’s not all about you Tamara, ever. Might as well accept that.
Rivke 38
Ok, I admit I haven’t read every single comment here, but…if anyone has read Rori Raye’s philosophies…I personally find them quite helpful and totally apropos to this situation. Basically, masculine energy is “giving” energy, and feminine energy is “receiving” energy. It sounds like Tamara started to give so much that there was no room for her man to give to her, as he had initially, so he was stopped from being “the man” in the relationship and lost interest.
If you “lean back”, leave your heart open and allow a man to come to you and give, then you can receive and give back, and I think that is the ideal “dance” in a relationship and keeps the passion going.
When women fall in love, I know from experience that my tendency is to want to do a million nice things, shower my man with affection and tell him how amazing he is. These things are great and shouldn’t be censored completely, but at a certain point you just have to leave some space between you for the man to make his own moves. Wouldn’t you want your man to feel INSPIRED to come towards you, because you are so amazing at living your own life, rather than always having to go after him to get some attention??
Diana 39
Rivke, I recently started reading Rori’s philosophies, and Tamara and her situation crossed my mind, too. Interesting!
Her letter seems to show that she went from one extreme (receiving, but indifferent, making him work harder) to the other extreme (giving too much and smothering any efforts he might would want to make, so why bother). The energy flow, or give and take is a delicate balance that is sometimes hard to successfully achieve.
Laine 40
Whats all this about Ronnie Ryan ? That was the point I was making @ # 34
downtowngal 41
RAR#21, “you aren’t interested, why bother dating the guy? ”
Good point. though I wonder if OP's comments are in hindsight. I've also seen situations with guys who will only pursue women who aren't interested in them. This guy sounds like a total d-bag, and I agree 1000% w EMK.
Though it raises some questions about dating. I've been told that i”m 'too nice', and have shown too much interest at the start, which turns guys off, that I smile too much. I've also been told I'm pretty, down-to-earth and self-assured, and don't exhibit desperate behavior with guys.
On the other hand, with some guys, if you don't show enough interest (like kiss on a first (blind-met-on-the-internet) date) he thinks you're not into him.
I've always thought, if you treat someone (friend/mate) well and show self respect, you'll receive it. Problem is, it doesn't seem to work that way with relationships. Guys will do what they want and don't always think about 'wow, she seems like a good person who shares my values' when they meet someone, instead they'll go for the hot chick w the big boobs walking by. And even the nice/good ones will be reluctant to pursue women who who too much interest at first. This is why women learn to play subtle games and string guys along in case something develops. Say what you want but I've seen it happen with success, guys falling for the same stuff.
OP's situation sounds like an extreme case, but the title of the post refers to more women who fall into this 'gray area'.
Havingsaidthat 42
Look at this from his perspective. He spent two months chasing after this woman who was kind of bitchy and indifferent. He stays in the relationship, because he doesn't feel like he knows her that well and is willing to overlook her coldness in case there is more to her than he has seen.
After a few months, she's a bit less bitchy, but he feels like he knows all of her good points and is not as impressed as he had hoped he would be given the initial coldness.
So, he distances himself. And you guys break up.
The problem is, unlike a good scientist, you are only studying your experimental conditions, not the subject. This guy is responding to many things in addition to how you behave, just as you respond to many things in addition to how a guy behaves. Guys will put up with bitchiness initially to see what's there (actually, guys may not even see it as bitchiness, since they tend to want more emotional distance anyway — they may just see it as you not really caring about them at all, which is true).
Men are PEOPLE, people. They are motivated by the same things we are. To understand why they do what they do, think about yourself, but 10x more looks driven and 10x more sex-driven (no matter how horny you are). Then, think it through.
Elaine 43
I have been in Tamara's relationship before and I agree with the comment #42 and I'd like to add that what Tamara didn't take into account is that maybe after 8 months, the guy didn't feel like being in a relationship with someone who wasn't that into him. She says that she began become more open towards him, but she doesn't take his point of view into account. What if she had spend 2 months pursuing a man who wasn't into her, and then who knows how many more months slowly openning up. He might have been completely receptive for the last few months but would you really trust someone who spent half the relationship running away or trying to make up their mind?
When my boyfriend and I broke up this was one of the reasons that he gave me. He told me that he knew I was not comfortable dating him in the beginning of the relationship and that this still bothered him, months and months later. And whenever I did something that he didn't like, he questioned whether this was my "not caring" coming out again.
So the point here is, you can't be indifferent and use people emotionally as you need them until you decided that you want to keep them, and then expect them to stick around like nothing happened.
starthrower68 44
I think the thing I struggle with is trying to do a balancing act that seems virtually impossible. Here's an example: Evan has said on a previous blog that when a man tells a woman he finds her attractive, that doesn't mean he's interested in her, he's just being in the moment. Evan has also said men (as a general rule, not all) don't know what they want. It's difficult at bet to navigate one's way through that. But then a current video says to assume the best about men. At this point, the only thing I really know how to do is just smile and nod and say "thank you". I don't want to be completely disengaged because I'm trying to be open, but its tricky because a woman also has to be sure to see the red flags. I don't want to assume I'm going to get hurt, but I don't want to ignore things I should see in an attempt to be open. Am I the only one with this conundrum?
Selena 45
Starthrower,
I'm not sure I understand the conundrum between being open and ignoring red flags. When you meet new people without romantic expectations do you do so with openness? Or do you scout their landscape for red flags? I'll guess that you generally just go with the flow of getting to know them and when/if they do something you find inappropriate, you re-evaluate how you want to proceed socially with them. Why should it be different with men you might be romantically interested in?
I've been guilty of ignoring red flags before too thanks to sexual attraction. But I think, hope anyway, that I'm less apt to do that now having previous experience. Doesn't stop me from being open, but I might weight some things like inappropriate flashes of temper, snide remarks, questionable ethics and untruths heavier than my younger self did. And that's with anyone not just romantic possibilities. "Presumption of innocence until proven otherwise", I find is a much happier way to live.
Evan Marc Katz 46
I love you guys. It’s like I don’t even have to offer dating advice anymore since you GET it. Thanks, Selena, and Karl, and everyone else who contributes to the positive dialogue here. Keep up the great work…
Selena 47
Re: # 46
Slacker!
starthrower68 48
Selena, I understand your questions and maybe that wasn't the best analogy. Let me pose this questions in response to what you said: one should not have any romantic expectations about someone they might be romantically interested in, is what I think you might be saying (but please correct me if I'm misunderstanding)?
Selena 49
@Starthrower #48
Hmm, not exactly. What I meant is, when you meet new people, say a new co-worker joins your company, or a friend of yours introduces you to her neighbors at a party…you are probably open when getting to know them yes? It doesn't occur to you to scrutinize them, to be on red alert for red flags. Why not approach dating that way? If you meet a single guy, hey, he might be interesting to get to know -why not be open – that's all.
The thing is Star, you already know what the red flags are you previously ignored. You will be less likely to ignore them if you see them again. If you see one pop up with a new person there will be a little voice in the back of your head that goes "uh oh". Or if it's a BIG red flag, maybe there will be a little robot madly waving it's accordian arms going "Warning! Warning! Danger Will Robinson!"
Being open, to me, is essentially just being friendly. Not getting too caught up what might happen, or where things might go…just letting the other person reveal themself as you spend time together.
Karl R 50
starthrower68 asked: (#48)
"one should not have any romantic expectations about someone they might be romantically interested in, is what I think you might be saying"
I'm not sure that's a good paraphrase of what Selena said … but it is an accurate statement by itself.
Last year I went on a very enjoyable first date. We had a lot in common. There was obvious rapport. Despite the successful first date, I didn't allow myself to get carried away with "new relationship" euphoria. I didn't even know whether she would say "Yes" to a second date. This minimized my disappointment when she was not interested in a second date.
Another way to explain it:
You shouldn't be in a rush to turn a handful of date into a relationship. Nor should you be in a rush to rule out a relationship based on a handful of dates. Relax, have fun, get to know the other person, then make an informed decision.
As Selena indicated, people have a tendency to rush into relationships with people they find attractive and charming, despite red flags. On the other hand, people often rule people out for not having traits on their list, without discovering whether the person is suitable anyways.
Selena provided an example of rushing in despite red flags. To give you an example of ruling someone out, several women on this blog have stated that they would not date a man who didn't have a college degree, because that man would not be their intellectual equal. I always find those comments amusing, since I don't have have a degree … and I'm sure some women on Match.com ruled me out for precisely that reason.
Don't rush to classify someone as "your boyfriend" (or "not your boyfriend") quickly. There's nothing to lose by spending a little extra time where the guy is "maybe your boyfriend."
Selena 51
Agree with you about the college degree Karl. I have more formal education than my previous partners and many of my friends – never made a whit of difference – we were intelluctual equals.
downtowngal 52
This post is mis-titled. OP doesn't sound like a 'nice girl' – in the sense that she continued to date someone she wasn't intersted in.
Carly 53
I failed to set healthy boundaries with the man who loved me and I gave too much…he was the needy one but I gave too much. Now he is gone and I realize he must have felt overwhelmed and suffocated by my care and the fact that there was no room for me to ‘need’ him in my life.
I told him that I would respect his wishes and no longer contact him and I do not know where he is now…It’s been 3 weeks. He may have moved away. What can I do now? We had and I believe still do have an amazing emotional bond and loved each other very much. He told me every day and showed me in many ways and we planned to never part.
Gina 54
I actually found the book, “Why Men Love Bitches,” to provide some common sense advice. When the author uses the term “bitch,” she’s not using it to refer to mean, selfish women who treat men poorly. Rather, she’s advising women to be nice, but not become a doormat when dating or being in a relationship with a man. Here are a few of her attraction principles to give you an idea of what I’m talking about:
Attraction Principle #1
Anything a person chases in life runs away.
Attraction Principle #23
Before sex a man isn’t thinking clearly and a woman is thinking clearly. After sex, it reverses. The man is thinking clearly and the woman isn’t.
Attraction Principle #44
Most women are starving to receive something from a man that they need to give themselves.
Attraction Principle #50
The nice girl gives away too much of herself when pleasing him regularly becomes more important than pleasing herself.
Attraction Principle #100
The most attractive quality of all is dignity.
Tia 55
great advice Evan, so simple you almost would miss it. and the people t hat we want to end up with are not people we have to put on facades for or “play hard to get” indefinitely.