Do “No-Sex” Marriages Work?
We’re constantly on the go, busy from dawn ’til dusk with tasks that fill our entire day, and really, at the end of it, who has time for sex? According to this NY Times interview with Denise A. Donnelly, associate professor of sociology at Georgia State University, married couples don’t have the energy to keep the spark in their sex life:
“Married men and women, on average, have sex with their spouse 58 times a year, a little more than once a week, according to data collected from the General Social Survey, which has tracked the social behaviors of Americans since 1972. But there are wide variations in that number. Married people under 30 have sex about 111 times a year. And it’s estimated that about 15 percent of married couples have not had sex with their spouse in the last six months to one year.”
Donnelly cites a number of factors to why marriages become sexless:
Some people become accustomed to their spouse, bored even, and sex slows. For others, it is the demands of raising a family, establishing a career, and mid-adulthood. And there are people who have very low sex drives, and may even be asexual. They may have some sex with their partners to begin with, but it becomes unimportant to them (and usually not so unimportant to their spouses). These folks may also be dealing with guilt, issues with the human body, or feel that sex is “dirty” or only for procreation. A small number of couples showed a mixed pattern, where they would have periods of “feast” and of “famine.”
So, here’s what I want to know. Do you think there is hope to rekindle the passion in a marriage that’s become sexless? Please leave your thoughts and comments below.
And in case you didn’t know, I’m away in Bali for my yearly vacation. While I’m gone, I’m offering a $100 discount on my Finding the One Online CD series – but it’s just until I get back from vacation!
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66 Comments »Filed Under Sex
Selena 1
“So, here’s what I want to know. Do you think there is hope to rekindle the passion in a marriage that’s become sexless?”
I’d venture there is more hope in a relationship that had passion to begin with.
Less hope in those where a person “settled” without much of a spark to start with.
Steve 2
So, here’s what I want to know. Do you think there is hope to rekindle the passion in a marriage that’s become sexless?
How many couples are willing to ( or can ) reduce their obligations in order to have time off to recuperate their sex drives?
How many couples are willing to work on their personal experience, read sex books, play games and experiment for the sake of their sex lives?
Steve 3
Married men and women, on average, have sex with their spouse 58 times a year, a little more than once a week, according to data collected from the General Social Survey, which has tracked the social behaviors of Americans since 1972. But there are wide variations in that number. Married people under 30 have sex about 111 times a year. And it’s estimated that about 15 percent of married couples have not had sex with their spouse in the last six months to one year
In other words, the New York Times is reporting that many “married” people are really only glorified roommates most of the time.
If you accept this at a gut level, does it change your perspective on how not-suitable for relationships single people over 40 who never been married are?
http://tinyurl.com/lwmhg6
Reading in between the lines of the snippet above all most busy married people are learning while being married is how to be a good roommate. They don’t have time for their partners.
Maybe the never-marrieds of the same age are just as busy and missed a window when they were younger to hook up with a “roommate”/spouse ?
Honey 4
I do think there’s hope to rekindle a sexless marriage…though like any other marital problem, it takes both people’s equal committment.
Though not married yet, I can relate to the career establishment being a killer for the sex drive. Currently the BF works about 60-80 hours per week – not only does this mean that he often doesn’t get home until after 8 p.m., he is frequently in the office one weekend day as well. Combined with the fact that he has a sleep disorder and often takes sleeping pills on the weekday…it is a challenge.
However, he accumulated enough debt in grad school that his high-paying job is necessary at the moment. He has talked about changing jobs for something that would pay significantly less but that would offer him a better work-life balance once his debts are paid down a little more (same field, but probably working for the government rather than in private industry). I am fine with that, obviously!
However, while we might not have sex as frequently as we’d like at the moment, we DO spend a SIGNIFICANT amount of time hugging, kissing, and cuddling – in the morning when we get up, when he gets home from work, and when we go to bed. We took one of those “love style” quizzes and my primary love style is touch, so this is absolutely ESSENTIAL for me. He is happy to oblige!
Honey´s last blog post…How Much Do I Invest in Someone Else?
Cilla 5
I think there’s hope to rekindle a sex life if there is still emotional intimacy there, or if a couple is willing to re-find that emotional connection. If they’ve truly become estranged and are not willing to uncover and deal with the reasons, they will remain, in effect, roommates.
Virtually all of my friends with young children have low-sex or no-sex marriages. This American idea that we have to put our children, jobs, and households ahead of our relationships is killing intimacy in our couples. It is exhausting being a parent, but you need to carve out time for each other, if you want the marriage to remain healthy. Parenthood and other pressures start to dovetail with the increased ease of committing infidelity (online dating, cell phones, text messaging) and a society that seems to condone it more and more. And at the age that most people are parents in the US, they are also facing the biggest pressures to perform at work, especially in the current economy–there are just too many things to compete with a marriage on the edge of surviving.
The typical cycle I see: parents have a child or two. Time becomes a premium. Patience is pushed. Finances become tighter. The primary caregiver parent (and usually, but not always, there is one) becomes resentful of not getting enough help or validation and starts to nag, pick fights, etc. The other parent responds by retreating. By the time the kids are old enough that the couple might find a little time for intimacy, it’s too late–they no longer know or even like each other, have started an affair, or have become obsessed with career obligations, sports, whatever.
Janet 6
Are we talking about sexless marriages? It seems to me from the snippets above that we’re talking about marriages where the sex has become less frequent but not extinguished altogether. So is the assumption that “less frequent” is bad and “more frequent” is better?
In my POV there is only a problem if there is a discrepancy in desire between the two people: one wants more or less, the other doesn’t. Which would be a more interesting article–how to manage that situation.
If a married couple isn’t having sex at all but they’re OK with it, why should I care?
Eathan 7
It can be rekindled. It takes work and effort. Most divorced women that I date always speak of their marriage was getting boring. They didn’t go out, flirt, dance, and ect. Basically dating gives them the attention that they craved for previously.
Once a week won’t ever work for me. Couldn’t do it.
Eathan´s last blog post…Kiss Me You Fool!
Paul 8
I’m divorced and I WISH I had sex once a week! I’d be in heaven!
Actually, when you’re a bit older as i am (50), the need for daily sex, or very frequent sex diminishes and companionship takes over to a degree. Age ranges weren’t included in the article, but can be assumed that at least some of those couples are older and well, guess what, they’ve been there and done that. It’s just not that big of an issue when you are older, or becomes less of a vital need, especially for men. My mother divorced and never had sex (at least that I am aware of – and if she did – don’t want to know!) for the rest of her life and it was no big deal to her. Same with my aunt the same age. But take communication away, or affection, and that’s another story! Harder for men to live without maybe, but sex is something that men use to prove themselves when they are young…older guys have already proven themselves. But any couple that is really close to each other and loving and really care about the other persons needs being met can improve or pick up their sex life, at any age…and should! As Dale Carnagie said 70 years ago…”sex isn’t the most important thing in a relationship, but it’s the kind of thing that if it isn’t right, nothing else can be”. He went on to say it is the lubricant to the relationship (no pun intended)…if that part of the relationship is good, then a lot of other things that would ordinarily be a burdon, or irritant, will simply be overlooked, or not given a second thought. It’s a fun, healthy activity for married couples at any age and a heck of a way to pass some time. And for men at least, fills you up with this sense of wellness and empowerment that allows you to go out and slay the dragons everyday. Remember the scene in Titanic, where Leonardo DeCaprio is at the front tip of the ship and gets up on the rail with his hands held high and says “I am the king of the world”? A mans attitude today has a lot to do with what happened in the bedroom the night before. That’s what he gets from it. It’s a very emotional thing for men, not just a physical thing.
Curly Girl 9
I’m a little concerned because we’re talking about a marriage issue on a dating site, and presumably married people aren’t dating. Or is this not a dating site anymore? If not, then why all the links to dating sites off to the right? Seems a bad combo–blogs about sexless marriages and a bunch of ads for online dating sites right next door.
I’m confused!
Blue 10
Excellent point, Curly Girl!
Also, Evan, do you want to get into a discussion about how hormonal birth control pretty much kills libido in a huge percentage of women, so once women can feel OK about not getting preggers (a BIG concern for most women EVERY time they have sex), they no longer have any desire for sex?
Or maybe you’d rather start a discussion about why so many men make every excuse in the book to avoid getting a vasectomy, and still really want women to shoulder the responsibility for birth control?
BeenThruTheWars 11
Curly Girl @ 9
With so much discussion about “why commit?” on these boards, it seems like a germane topic to me. There’ve also been discussions about low-sex girlfriend/boyfriend relationships, what to do about them, and what to expect, going forward. Hearing what married or formerly married people think about the subject over the course of a LTR might give people in live-in or simply monogamous situations another perspective to consider.
starthrower68 12
Steve @ #2,
I could think of worse things to work on, lol!
All kidding aside, I believe looking back that this was a major issue in my marriage, but I didn’t realize it until the marriage ended. Neither one of us really knew how to ask for what we wanted because we were very young. I hope that should I remarry, I will pay greater attention to that aspect of marriage and that I will have a spouse that would ask for what he needs. Yes yes I know I don’t have to get married blah blah blah. I’m not even gonna go there.
Jennifer 13
@CurlyGirl #9 My understanding/impression is that it is a site for people who are dating in order to find and sustain successful ltr’s and marriages. And before you get started I know, that’s not the goal for everyone. But based on the fact that Evan is a dating coach who is in the business of helping people improve their dating techniques in order to increase their chances of finding and sustaining successful relationships, and the content of this site and the majority of the comments, these are the bulk of the people you’ll find here.
Just like if you were on a Christian based blog/website, you couldn’t be surprised by all of the mentions of Jesus there and wonder why no one was discussing the many virtues of other religions
Barrett 14
I think it is indeed possible to rekindle a sexless marriage through breaking out of your box. It doesn’t have to be crazy but just trying to get your blood pumping is the idea. Read some stories, watch some movies, think about something fun you’d like to try. In order for it to work though it has to be mutual. I don’t think this can be accomplished without both partners being involved.
downtowngal 15
I agree with Selena above, if it was there at the beginning you can get it back.
The people around me who’ve been happily married seem to make sure to take time out for themselves. Have a ‘date’ night or take a vacation alone once a year. Having been in a LTR where I lived with someone, we’d go through months of having sex maybe 1x week, then times when we were all over each other. And I could see how not spending time together/making each other feel special causes people to drift apart.
When couples loose sight of why they got together in the first place is when the drift begins. Nobody likes to be taken for granted.
hunter 16
No sex marriages work, it takes two very patient people.
casualencounters.com/blog 17
RE: “Do you think there is hope to rekindle the passion in a marriage that’s become sexless? Please leave your thoughts and comments below.”
If the reason it has “become sexless” is the asexuality of either partner it’s insulting to suggest that the lack of sex necessarily equates to a lack of passion. Plenty of asexual couples exist whose relationships are passionate with regard to any metric aside from frequency sexual intercourse.
casualencounters.com/blog´s last blog post…Weekly Roundup – Top 10 Casual Sex Links from Around the Web
Curly Girl 18
Jennifer: Well, even if your idea is correct, isn’t it a bit premature to be worrying about the sexlessness of your marriage years before the sexlessness puts in an appearance? I mean, what good is blogging about sexlessness in marriage going to do for anyone on this board? The only people who can comment with any authority are divorced people who experienced that. And who cares what single people who are dating think about how to jump start a sexless marriage? What do they know about it?
According to your logic we should also be discussing how to get your kids into good schools, whether it’s better to raise kids in the ‘burbs or the city, how and when is the best time to conceive, how do you tell your parents that your spouse doesn’t want to celebrate Christmas with them because he’s Jewish, do you stay or go when she has an affair, and, ultimately–can this marriage be saved?
Makes no sense.
Jennifer 19
@Curly Girl #18- It doesn’t seem like an odd topic to discuss to me. The more issues you are aware of/ have an eye out for before you get married, the better you may be able to head them off at the pass. Particularly touchy (npi) topics like sex. I’ve found most problems in relationships have to do with people’s unmet (and unfortuantely unspoken, until it’s too late) expectations, so getting people thinking and talking about this issue can’t hurt.
I do see where you are coming from, but it just doesn’t seem odd to me.
downtowngal 20
Jennifer & CG, I can see both your points. I find that many people who’ve never been married or been in relatinships beyond a year want to get married but don’t seem to fully understand what makes a marriage work. yes, it’s more than just the sex – it’s companionship, shared values/goals, etc. And the passion does die down, but there’s still desire.
From what I’ve seen/experienced, lack of sex in a marriage (or even LTR) is a symptom of a bigger issue. and many couples get so into their routines (kids, work, etc) they drift.
Curly Girl 21
Well, Jennifer, as I said, why just the sexless part of marriage and not all of the other challenges that you would or could experience over the decades with someone–infertility, death of a child, major illness, unemployment, parental dimentia, mental illness, emotional estrangement, etc.
I think the reason it’s THAT issue and not one of the other issues above is because the idea of rekinding a dormant sexual connection is titillating and these others are real buzzkills. Very not erotic. In an odd way, the question just supports the idea that marriage is SUPPOSED to be this ongoing, highly charged sexual experience. But judging from the outside, it doesn’t seem to be after the honeymoon is over. The highly charged sexual experience really is the hook up. But you can’t build a relationship on hookups.
So I agree with you. Let’s get realistic about what marriage offers. I’ve been saying that all along. But when I suggest that the reality of marriage is sobering and I urge caution, caution to the point of saying that marriage is not for everyone and maybe we should regard other forms of relationship with equal respect, I get push back from you (and others). Anyone who suggests that marriage might be flawed, judging by what is readily observable to all of us, and who suggests something other than submitting ourselves to years of “work” and awfulness gets attacked.
I think my POV is first, very realistic, and second, very positive and open. I am suggesting that we change the way we view marriage. That we change our expectations. That we change what we teach people is “true” about male/female relationships and romance.
I say dump the 1950s-influenced beliefs about marriage and the nuclear family. It doesn’t work, for the most part. Those beliefs would be: 1) that the erotic experience of “falling in love” is the best way to select a partner; 2) that your marriage should be some sexual nirvana; 3) that the woman’s main role is to “nurture” and the man’s to “provide”; 4) that any feeling toward another person is in and of itself sustainable and unchanging over years and years; 5) that erotic-based marriages and resultant families are insular, vacuum-sealed units of stability and the only relationships of “real” value.
Curly Girl 22
I would also add that hookups and love affairs have value, that friendships have value, that our work relationships have value, that children born outside of traditional marriage are just as valuable as any other child, that abstinence has value, that one’s relationship with something larger than oneself has value, that work can be a creative, joyous, life-affirming enterprise.
Marriage and the LTR and the nuclear family do not trump any of these things, in my book.
Selena 23
Curly Girl,
I think this “No-sex” post makes a nice counterpoint to the several over the last few months about “settling”, “not chasing chemistry”, and that marriage is about “building something” for the future.
Many of these folks who want to get married so they will have something “built” 40 yrs. from now, who don’t care, even expect, such a marriage will be sexless – like roommates – may not realize how much EARLIER this could happen. It’s one thing to think you might not be interested in sex when you’re in your 70′s-80′s, but in your 30′s? And there are some people who think they’d better get married soon, because no one will want them when they are older. Older, being over 40.
This particular study seemed to focus on couples who were “too busy” for sex. Didn’t really go into other reasons like lack of interest to begin with. Or, the “bait and switch” – engaging in sex in order to get married – not really being all that sexually interested in the person, but sex being a means to an end…marriage.
Nor did it address that “sexless marriages” are often NOT by mutual consent. The guy who was picked because he would be the best candidate for paying the bills and putting up the swingset, might end up being the guy who files for divorce, or becomes drawn into an affair due to his sexless marriage. Same could be said of the woman who “picked” him for the stability and found her life lacking without passion.
mic 24
Funny how few people actually tried to answer the question. Of course there’s hope, in many cases. All the underlying problems aside, in a significant number of such marriages, appearance improvement alone would help. There is research attributing some problems to weight gain, for example, and clearly many people put less effort into style after marriage, which can affect perceived fitness, among other things.
Curly Girl 25
Selena: Points all well taken.
Curly Girl 26
mic: Nobody is trying to answer the question because none of us are married. We’re dating, so we’re not having this problem. Do these marriages “work”? What does it mean to say it’s “working”?
Lance 27
Never been married, but I know 10 married couples that are approximately my age and have shared details of their sex lives with me. One couple has sex once per week and they’re totally happy with it (they state quality over quantity), and one other couple a few more times than that. The others are way off the map, like once every 3-6 months. It’s pretty disturbing because these are close friends. Two of the couples are getting divorced. Interestingly, the one couple that has sex 2-3 times per week are both VERY physically attractive people.
I’m sure it’s possible to rekindle a married sex life but the probability is really low. I’m going to say this now and get ready to get flamed, but ultimately sex doesn’t have to be the big factor in a successful marriage. I say prioritize the companionship/family/personal development aspects and supplement with sex from another source for both partners.
On another note, I’d be interested to see data from the same couples about how often they thought about sex with other partners, masturbated, and even attempted to “cheat.” That would give you some insight of what the actual sex drives of the individuals are and where the conflict is.
Lance´s last blog post…Away We Go
Cilla 28
@ CG
Actually, I was married for 15 years, many of them sexless (he was traveling for business and cheating). At the time, our child was young, so I can also speak to some of the effects that child rearing has on a marriage (at least from one point of view). I see a lot of what happened in my marriage happening in my friends’ and neighbors’ relationships.
Cilla 29
@ Lance
I sort of agree–ultimately I would choose companionship and general compatibility over sex in a relationship that extended into retirement years. But why not strive for both? There’s a lot of commentary here that makes it seem like companionship and a good sex life are mutually exclusive. In my opinion, they go hand in hand. The better your sex life, the better your friendship. The better your friendship, the better your sex life (assuming you can agree on frequency, etc.).
Kristyn 30
I just can not fathom marrying someone I wasn’t passionate about or being content to be “glorified roomates” at any time in the relationship!
Having said that, I believe you can rekindle, if you had passion to be begin with, if you practice the things you did when you were dating. I think most people let those little thoughtful things they did for each other when they were dating slip away, thats whats getting lost in the “I’m so busy” life.
Jennifer 31
@CurlyGirl #21
First, I apologize if I’ve ever made you feel attacked. Definitely not my intention.
The reason you may sense push-back from me is not because I don’t feel that your point of view is valid, but because I don’t necessarily think this is the appropriate venue to express it the way you do. Whenever a question or issue comes up where someone implies that marriage is their goal or what they want, I don’t think its appropriate to question that or make people feel that they have to defend the fact that they want to get married.
For what it’s worth, like you, I also believe marriage is a huge deal, huge commitment and not something to be taken likely. But I also believe that two people can come together and create any type of marriage they want, as long as they are both happy/satisfied. For example, if a couple has an open marriage- great for them! It’s not my preference but if they like it I love it. So while I’m tied to marriage, I’m not necessarily tied to specific rules or ideas about marriage that others may have.
So for the stuff we agree on, great and for the stuff we don’t, I can agree to respectfully disagree
Curly Girl 32
Jennifer: I can tell from your response that you do not get what I am saying and that you still think I am attacking marriage. If you read my posts, that is not my point AT ALL.
Also, this is a blog. Not an appropriate venue to express my views? What are you talking about?
mic 33
Lance, there’s research about that kind of information.
For your reading pleasure:
http://www.psychophysiolab.com/uhess/pubs/HBSF07.pdf
http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a713776112~db=all~order=page
http://www.ejhs.org/volume7/fitness.html
Bottom line – staying in shape and regularly having sex are good for marriage.
mic 34
There’s also the body image element. With decline in physical attractiveness sometimes comes loss of confidence. That might lower willingness to initiate sex or to be naked around one’s partner.
Cilla 35
@ Kristyn
Re: being content to be glorified roommates
It sucks, but it’s possible to be stuck in a bad marriage with small children, no financial resources, and no prospects for escape (e.g. full time job, insurance, etc.). I think a lot of women are like I was, certainly not content, but not able to leave until there are realistic options to do so.
Jennifer 36
@CurlyGirl #32- I beleive I get your point. I don’t think you are attacking marriage. I think you are saying it’s not the only viable alternative for life, right?
As a long time reader, my understanding is that this is a blog geared towards people who are dating with the hope of attaining loving marriages or ltrs. That’s why I think the point that there are other valid relationship alternatives is a fine one, but maybe this isn’t going to be the most receptive audience for that. Of course receptive audience or no, you are free to express any view anywhere you wish.
That’s all.
Joe 37
The way I read CG’s posts she did not come across as attacking marriage, only as making the point that only those readers who are divorced (AND who experienced sexless marriages prior to divorce) are the only ones with any practical experience in that subject (by definition).
Steve 38
Nobody is asking if the low sex couples *can* do the things to rekindle their sex lives or if they are willing to give something up to be able to do those things.
Getting/keeping in shape, maintaining a wardrobe that flatters you, having interests that makes you interesting company, reading sex manuals, playing games, going on marital dates, and even just resting enough to have a better libido takes *time*.
Are the couples willing to take lesser paying jobs and lower their standard of “living” in exchange for having the time to do those things?
At least once a year my home town rag the Washington Post runs a story about double income upper middle class couples pinching pennies like college students to make ends meet. Both spouses earn impressive salaries, but they feel locked into impressive expenses also.
If a couple has children there probably are some expenses (including time commitments ) that will not allow them to downshift their jobs and lifestyles.
Curly Girl 39
Jennifer@36: Thanks for sharing your views.
Steve: You’re a D.C. guy!!! Just filling in the blanks….:)
Curly Girl 40
Jennifer: Another thought. You are the only one who has suggested that I should not be posting on this site, and certainly there are many guys on here who have written about things that are hardly geared toward “loving marriages and ltrs,” calling into question what you consider to be the proper use of this site.
What is so threatening to you about my words?
Selena 41
CG,
I was orginally drawn to this site because I enjoy the way Evan writes. But it’s the different perspectives of the commenters on love, sex, relationships and life in general that has kept me intrigued and reading for almost 2 yrs. If it was a site soley devoted to “What do I have to do to get married?” I would have lost interest long ago.
Janet has also offered some different viewpoints here and I believe she is married. Would hope there is room here for all of us, even those who aren’t marriage minded at the moment.
Cilla 42
@ Steve
From what I understand listening to sexologists, psychologists, etc., couples need to solve the underlying causes for why there’s no sex in the first place, then address the more, er, technical issues. If it’s simply a matter of time, technique, etc., your suggestions are right on track. But if there are deeper issues, like resentment over the division of labor, finances, infidelity, and the like, counseling may be in order first.
Jennifer 43
@CurlyGirl #40
Whoa- didn’t say that at all and did you forget how this whole discussion started?
1. You have a history of posting comments indicating that marriage isn’t the only valid option for people, often after they’ve suggested that they’d like to find marriage or a LTR. Of course those aren’t the only comments you post, but it seems to make up a majority of them. You’ve mentioned that you do that on purpose, in efforts to show people another alternative. Fine.
2. In this particular posting you question the point of the blog or who its geared towards as you felt this ‘no-sex’ marriage post didn’t fit in.
3. I gave my opinion on the point of the blog and why I felt this post fit in
4. You tell me you’ve been attacked by others on the board and how you’ve gotten push-back from a lot of people including me for expressing your views
5. I mention why that may be from my pov (telling people that are looking for advice/info/whatever on ltrs and marriages may have already thought about the fact that being single is a valid life option, but have decided that it’s not for them). I also mention that the way you express your views could be a bit off-putting (of course, just a personal opinion).
6. You accuse me of saying I didn’t read your post, saying that you attack marriage and saying you shouldn’t post here-none of that was the case. And none of what I said here was unsolicited- you started questioning who the blog was geared towards and talking about feeling attacked and push-back from several people on the boards, not me. You clearly felt it was an issue.
Nothing about your words is threatening and nothing about your views bother me. Not sure why you seem to be so prickly about this or why you seem to be looking for ‘fighting words’ in my posts to you (they aren’t there) or how this got so far off course, but hopefully now you have a better idea of how and why this discussion unfolded and what was actually said. And if you don’t- there’s really not much more I can say.
Jennifer 44
@CurlyGirl #40- I failed to address the other part of you post, about other people posting things that are not geared towards marriages/ltrs- I wouldn’t presume to tell anyone that they should or shouldn’t post on a board, just as I didn’t tell you that. You raised some questions about the blog, talked about attacks and push-back you were getting, so we engaged in a dialogue about it. I didn’t expect it to turn into some kind of issue.
If anyone else had raised questions I would’ve engaged in a dialogue with them as well unless I felt they were just totally unreasonable and expressly looking to say inflammatory things to rile people up- then I wouldn’t see a point and wouldn’t have bothered.
Curly Girl 45
Jennifer: Too bad.
Steve 46
@Cilla, #42
I’m not a sexologist ( how do you get that job? ), but I would bet money that the majority of low sex marriages are the result of busy schedules and stressful schedules that are adopted to maintain a particular standard of living.
mic 47
Getting/keeping in shape, maintaining a wardrobe that flatters you, having interests that makes you interesting company, reading sex manuals, playing games, going on marital dates, and even just resting enough to have a better libido takes *time*.
Are the couples willing to take lesser paying jobs and lower their standard of living in exchange for having the time to do those things?
Steve,
Are you serious? Most people do have some free time, and conscious appearance management requires little from most people once they know what they are doing. Shopping for clothes online is a major time saver.
Janet 48
Since I have been invoked….:)
I like what C.G. has to say and I agree with her for the most part. I think one of the best pieces of advice to young women is to “live as if there is no Prince Charming.” Which seems to me to be what C.G. is saying. I don’t think you are hearing it this way, Jennifer.
I think the marriage myth that young women are fed is so damaging–esp. financially. The ignorance among women about the financial realities they face is simply shocking to me. It does seem that most women go through life expecting some guy at some point to step in and pick up the bill. And all the marriage myths support this type of infantile thinking in women. Sexlessness in marriage is a problem? How about dependent women who can’t support themselves or their children and don’t know the first thing about how the world of finance works? (Apologies to all you gals who have it together. Not directed at you.)
But ask a guy and I bet you will hear a whole earful about the financial pitfalls of marriage–especially a bad one. As C.G. pointed out, there are no guys on this board going around getting on anybody’s case about their views on the feasibility of a “loving” marriage or LTR. They may want girlfriends, or dates, or something that isn’t really specified, but I don’t read any pollyanna posts here by guys. And guys are who the gals are looking to marry, no? Think on that.
So, yeah. I can see C.G.’s frustration with anything that promotes the marriage myth. And there are a whole grab-bag of other goodies that go into the marriage myth bag, which I have already mentioned on other threads.
Personally I am glad that EMK put up a post about sexless marriages. And why not a post about infertility, or Alzheimers, or infidelity, or the horrors of divorce? These are harsh realities that affect our marriages–and if this site is about getting to marriage, then let’s talk about what we are hurtling toward.
The biggest indicator of how well your marriage will work is how your current relationships work–all of them, not just your dating relationships. If you have good relationships now, you will have a good marriage. Even if it ends in divorce. All marriages end in some way.
Cilla 49
Couples who haven’t had children yet (or don’t intend to) vs. empty nesters vs. couples with children still in the house = three totally different ball games which often present different obstacles to intimacy.
I suspect childless couples might have an easier time of rekindling intimacy, provided they are not so enmeshed in their careers (and the lifestyles they afford) to make time for their mates. Of course the desire to do so has to be there too. I assume those are the couples you are referring to, Steve.
Couples with kids still at home face so many obstacles, many of which boil down to time. Sick kids, kids who need or want their parents at night, kids who need help with homework, kids who have extracurricular activities (even those who aren’t ridiculously overscheduled), kids who just need basic help with feeding, bathing, and bedtime–all of those put a drain on finances, energy, and time. Now add housework, yardwork, pet care, the need to exercise and maintain one’s appearance, grocery shopping, cooking… oh, yeah and work (or looking for work, or dealing with pay cuts/furloughs)… and elderly parents… and.. You don’t need to be living a lavish lifestyle to feel like there should be 36 hours in a day to keep up with all of that.
What drops off the list first? A clean and organized house. Then exercise and personal appearance. Then maybe date night. You’re so tired and overwhelmed you have to choose your battles, so you let little Jr. crawl in bed with you just so everyone gets some sleep. The wife has body image issues related to having had three kids in five years. She’s exhausted and distracted by the messy house when she finally hits the sack. She might be a little resentful of the husband, who hasn’t figured out the best foreplay in the world is doing the dishes or running the vacuum. The husband, oblivious because the wife hasn’t actually said this to him, or only brings it up in arguments, is himself resentful. Resentful that his wife is too tired at the end of the day, resentful that little Jr. is in bed with them, resentful of the lack of validation about his hard work day… and so it goes.
It’s an insidious snowball that keeps growing, because it’s so insidious. By the time you realize you need to address it, you don’t have the luxury of time to do so. You feel like you’re just barely keeping your head above water every day.
Most couples think they’re going to be different. They won’t let this happen to them. A rare few don’t, but most succumb. If they have the money to afford a nanny or housekeeper to lighten the load, then usually one or both parents have high-demand jobs, which puts them back in the same situation as the childless couples. Just trading one set of problems for another.
With many couples I’ve known, it’s taken a precipitating event, such as an illness, job loss, or infidelity to realize they need counseling to unravel the tangled story of their loss of intimacy.
At that point, it may be too late. That’s what happens to a lot of empty nesters (not all, but many). By the time they have a free schedule and the financial wherewithal to enjoy each other, they don’t even know or like each other any more. They’re facing additional obstacles like ED and menopause.
It is possible to rekindle intimacy (or to make sexless marriages work), but it’s a little more complicated than keeping up your appearance and reading sex manuals. I think if more married couples thought about the consequences of high-demand careers and children (who are inherently high-demand), they might try harder to head off intimacy issues early on.
I remember when I went hiking in Denali National Park. I had to watch videos about bear safety and how to ford streams. Maybe couples considering matrimony should be required to watch something similar on the topic of potential barriers to intimacy.
Honey 50
@ Cilla – that’s one of the many, many reasons the BF and I have decided not to have children.
Honey´s last blog post…Crummy Weekend
Cilla 51
@ Honey
I can certainly understand your reasoning. Kids are hard, hard, hard work. I fell into much of the cycle I described in my previous post, and I had only one child, who is relatively easy as kids go (obedient, academically gifted, relaxed, helpful, etc.). I can’t imagine how parents cope with more than one child, especially if one or more are special needs or behaviorally challenging. While I would still do it all over again, because I adore my kid (just bawled at his HS graduation), if I had the chance, for sure I’d do some things differently.
I dunno, maybe 20/20 vision only comes with hindsight and parenting/relationship mistakes are something everyone has to go through. I keep gently telling my neighbor that sleeping in her daughter’s room, instead of with her husband, can be a source of future issues, but she insists it works for her. Yeah, sure it works for her *right now, in the moment*. A year or two from now, when her daughter can’t get to sleep without her, and when her husband’s eye is roving, it might not look like such a great decision.
Janet 52
Cilla: Nail on the head, my dear!
Curly Girl 53
Thanks, Janet. That is what I’m talking about. I am also talking about the stigma of being single, that Steve discussed on another post and that people toss around all the time, often without realizing that they’re doing it. So I’ll respond when that kind of stuff creeps in — like EMK saying, “That’s why I’m married and you’re ‘empowered’ “– which speaks badly of both marriage for women (not empowering?) and of single women (empowerment is a bad thing? female empowerment and marriage are opposed?). Now, EMK apologized on that thread, so kudos to him for recognizing the uncool implication in that.
That was the clearest example I could think of, and I apologize to EMK for bringing it up when he’s on vacation and can’t respond/defend if he feels called on to do so.
Selena 54
Janet #48:
“Personally I am glad that EMK put up a post about sexless marriages. And why not a post about infertility, or Alzheimers, or infidelity, or the horrors of divorce? These are harsh realities that affect our marriages and if this site is about getting to marriage, then let’s talk about what we are hurtling toward.”
Indeed. Along with the goal of finding “The One”, why not discuss what happens afterward? After the storybook wedding is over, the guests have gone home, the gifts have been put away – then what happens? The fairytales always leave this part of the story untold; copping out with “And they lived happily ever after”. But that’s where the *real* story just begins! Not the courtship, or the fait accompli of the wedding.
Is it any wonder little girls who become young women buy into “the marriage myth”? They are never told the rest of the story.
Janet 55
@Janet, #43
Given that you think guys are cynical or at least more realistic about marriage, who do you think is feeding little girls the pipe dreams about it?
Curly Girl 56
Janet@#55: There are two Janets on here?
I think we’re taught different things. Boys are raised with the expectation to work and be held in esteem for that work. Girls are raised to expect a guy to take care of them while they take care of children. So just naturally, maybe, given their respective expectations of their futures, guys think more about practical realities, like money and work, and girls think more about relational things, like how to get and keep a guy. For our parents, who married in the 50s, 60s, or 70s, maybe that made sense. But it doesn’t anymore.
To the first Janet: As I’ve mentioned before, my work is important to me and I have never, ever wanted to be dependent financially on a man. This has very much changed my view of dating and marriage–even moreso once I saw how much money it was possible for me to make–something my mother never could have dreamed of. What she taught me turned out to be completely false, and I had to relearn everything, based on what is real in my life. And so now, when I read things about women being turned on by power or finding millionaires more attractive I have to laugh–it seems so ridiculous. Of course I can date a millionaire–I probably have. I’m halfway there myself. A lot of women I know are. My female bosses make $300K a year. They’re almost all married–to their equals. They take care of themselves and are pretty. They have families or not as suits them. This isn’t a big deal anymore. And for women like this–women like me–you can’t do that traditional division of labor, so a guy who can’t do his share on the homefront or has a sense of entitlement re: chores and kids is a liability. Don’t want to date him, don’t want to marry him. And if you marry and divorce a guy who doesn’t make as much as you, you may end up paying him alimony.
Once I started making some money and growing in self esteem, I started to see relationships/marriage from a guy’s POV. No way would I ever go back. It’s too exciting. And the guys who get it, and are my boyfriend or my regular guy friends, are an absolute joy to be with.
mic 57
There was a Jewish (Rabbi) expert on TV last night claiming that one-third of marriages are sexless and that lack of sex is the most common reason for divorce. In theory, it’s plausible, but if he is right, then many people are getting married for the wrong reasons.
mic 58
Rabbi Schmuley is his name. His book seems aimed at no-sex marriages.
Steve 59
mic Jun 18th 2009 at 08:10 am 57
There was a Jewish (Rabbi) expert on TV last night
Aren’t all Rabbis Jewish?
hunter 60
Mic, one big problem in all marriages, one,,, not two,,,, Sex/Money.
hunter 61
They say one diminishes, without the other.
Vern 62
Our Marriage was filled with passion for the first two years then my wife started to mess around and that passion died from her to me. It has been a struggle to live with her continuous unfaithfulness until 8 years ago when she came home from a 14 month affair in another state. I had divorsed her then we began dating again. Long story short she says she loves me we got remarried and the passion died again. She gained over a hundred pounds in a year and is still growing. I dont believe there is another man in her life but we have a virtual sexless marriage for the past 7 years. She had no interest at all in sex, this cant last! Oh we have been married now for 39 years (moth marriages). It is very hard to live with her finishing my sentenses and never listening to just me. I dont get it.
steve hubbard 63
..this is my story. Married 13 yrs, total length of relationship 16yrs. NO sex with my wife for last 6 years since our one and only boy was born. We’re on the verge of splitting up, money is a big problem as she’s never looked at our accounts and has had luxuries over years all the time she has been out of work too. Many issues from her side effecting our togetherness and she’s opened her eyes to this, its as though she’s awaknened, never recalls the past and our plans, she has become pursessed or spiritually awakened. It’s screwed my head for years now. The love died many years ago after many good years together and very good sex life (about 10yrs). Now I consider myself happy having had the relationship but I can’t see a sexless, loveless marraige working out for much longer. I read the MJ quote; we come into this world knowing we are loved and we leave this world knowing the same, this means anything inbetween can be dealt with.
hunter 64
Most therapists say, once the money is gone, the sex is gone also.
Nat 65
Wife and I been married 40 + years and sexless approx 28 years.
I wouldn’t say were married were more like brother sister thing. But in any case were still together. And fairly happy !!! Now getting to old for that sex crap.
Pamela 66
I think there’s hope but a couple would really have to work at saving their marriage. They would have to work on the hidden problems in their marriage and communicate. I think a sexless marriage works for very few people. Most folks would leave after some time