Do You Think About A Future Before There’s A Present?
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I feel very strongly that a man isn’t “real” until he’s your boyfriend. He has to be exclusive with you before you get too excited.
Otherwise, you set yourself up for repeated heartbreaks.
This post is to warn you about taking the OPPOSITE tack: assuming that things are going to go wrong sooner or later.
It’s not an unfair premise. 99 out of 100 guys are NOT your future husband.
But what happens when you’re going into the date with that mindset?
The first thing you start thinking is: “Don’t waste my time.”
And to protect yourself from investing your time in a guy who – statistically speaking – will probably not be your husband – you go into full interrogation mode…
The “right” guy probably wouldn’t feel too good when dating a woman who treats him like a common criminal…
You start probing about his former relationships.
You subtly feel around for a sense of his financial well-being.
You hint – or say outright – that you’re looking for something serious.
All of which says to your date, “I DON’T TRUST YOU. AND I’M GOING TO GATHER AS MUCH INFORMATION AS I CAN TO WEED YOU OUT BEFORE I INVEST ANY EMOTION IN YOU.”
How’s that for a statement to the new man you’re seeing?
Understand, I make no defense of men who are jerks or players or time-wasters, but, believe it or not, most men are out for a real relationship.
They may date and date and date until they find the woman to whom they want to commit, but they really do want to build something. If you find that you’re attracted to “player” types (and I should know: I was one of them), the information I’ve compiled in Why He Disappeared is priceless.
Learn how to turn a player into a devoted man, just by learning to TRUST him.
If you still think that trust is a bad idea when it comes to men, consider the plight of my client, Jessica. A 37-year-old lawyer from Chicago, Jessica had been burned by men too many times, which is how she found herself single for 11 years after her divorce.
After dealing with multiple cases of infidelity, the hardest thing in the world for her to believe was that there were some truly nice men who would be loyal to her forever.
As a result, Jessica came up with a whole set of “rules” she lived her life by: do background checks on each new man to make sure he’s on the up-and-up, don’t waste time with a man if he’s not completely in love after a few weeks, don’t sleep with a man for at least 3 months, and so on.
Well, guess what? Jessica’s rules – designed to protect her – pushed every single guy away – for 11 years. She thought that this just meant she hadn’t met the “right” guy.
What she hadn’t considered is that the “right” guy (myself, for example) probably wouldn’t feel too good when dating a woman who treats him like a common criminal, who refuses to sleep with him, and who doesn’t understand why he won’t say “I love you” until he’s really positive he means it…
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46 Comments »Filed Under Dating
BeenThereDoneThat 1
This should be taped to everyone’s mirror! Why rush to the finish line?
Denise 2
I agree with this sentiment wholeheartedly. I would like to add a couple of things though:
1. It’s inherent and instinctual for women to want to know the ‘mystery’ of life, and this man sitting in front of us at that time is part of that mystery. ie. is he ‘the one’, etc. We can’t help going in this direction so we don’t need to beat ourselves up about it either. Having said that, we can definitely train ourselve to be present minded when we find we’re getting ahead of ourselves. Yoga is a great way to get trained in being present minded–so when our instincts take over, we can use our higher brains to reign ourselves in.
2. When I’m on a first date, I am DEFINITELY paying attention for signs in the conversation about these two things mentioned in the post:
“Is he financially stable?”
“Does he have a good relationship with his mom, his sister, and his exes?”
I do NOT interrogate, but am paying attention during conversation about clues about these and other things, like his relationship with his children. It does not mean he is Mr. Right if he’s good in these types of areas, but this is how I stay away from men who live in, create and/or like negative drama. (I am serverely allergic to drama, except romantic-like drama, like a dinner with candles
Steve 3
-OR-
We can take EMK’s post, shorten it and put it to music:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrhRTrl6zuQ
Rachelle 4
Wow, good article and very timely! I think I may have interrogated my date last night! Poor guy.
shelley 5
wow, this was perfect timing. i’m currently seeing a coworker and have been pressing him for clarity which seems like it’s pushing him away. thanks for the tip. i love the idea of letting things progress at an organic pace. it’s hard for me because i’m all about mircowaving things.
Denise 6
#3 Steve
Haha, almost fell off the chair when I saw ORLEANS!
Let me ask you this, can you as a man understand (or do you buy) into why women get ahead of themselves as a matter of course?
We as women are doing all this work to accept men as the species they are, it would be nice to hear a man articulate that he is trying to better understand women and why we do what we do. Other than, ‘I listen to her and refrain from solving her problem’, or ‘I bring her flowers now and then’–those are doing things, tactical.
#4 Rachelle
LOL, good for you for recognizing it, I cannot tell you how many women NEVER get this, or don’t want to get it.
When I hear stories of women doing this, or especially invading the guys boundaries by acting like his mother and/or taking over his life, I always think “Poor Guy”
P. 7
I agree with all this, but I always disagree with Evan’s stance on sex. To Evan, the girl needs to kiss him on the first or second date and she needs to sleep with him within a few weeks. If I guy hasn’t decided after 3 months if he wants a relationship with me, why do I have to sleep with him until he’s figured it out? I don’t want to sleep with a guy i’ve only known a few weeks.
Denise 8
#7 P.
Then don’t! Do what is good for you, then you’ll never go wrong.
SS 9
Exactly P.
I don’t HAVE to sleep with anyone. Yes, some men might move on because I’ve decided I want to wait until a committed relationship before having sex, but I really hope we haven’t gotten to the point where we’re accepting the idea that men have a “right” to sex from a woman that they’re just dating.
I did not sleep with my husband until four months of dating. I told him exactly what I said here… I do not have sex outside of a committed relationship. If he chose to move on because of that, I would not have cared. I will not compromise on an area that could be detrimental to my emotional health, not to mention my physical health. There is a legitimate health issue we’re talking about here, and I always made a potential partner go and get tested and show me the results before we became sexually active.
My husband waited because he felt I was worth it. But women should not be having sex with men out of fear that they might move on if they don’t do it in the man’s prescribed timeline. I’m sorry, but that’s not anything close to sexual freedom and sexual liberation if women are feeling pressured to have sex when they are not ready because a man might move on.
Still Looking 10
#7 P
While every person must make his or her own decision on when to kiss or have sex with a date, I for one find a date’s attitude toward physical intimacy to be a very important trait. I never have sex with a woman unless I’m sure that I’d like to see her again and I’d like my date to have a similar view. I wouldn’t want to see a woman who considers sex as something precious, to be doled out as a rare treat or treasure.
I may not know for several months if I’m ready for an exclusive relationship but if I detect that a woman looks upon sex as a chore or a bargaining chip, I’m not interested in her any longer. A statement of “why do I HAVE to sleep with a guy” would make me assume the woman is more prudish than I prefer. You never “have” to sleep with anyone; I just think that if the chemistry is there it is something both parties would enjoy doing together.
I’m not sure how most guys view sex but my desire to see a woman again would not diminish on the basis of having sex after a few dates or even a first date. My desire to see a woman would dissipate, however, if I thought she was applying a magical number of dates or time period before engaging in sex. I’m not sure how I would respond if a woman demanded that we were in an exclusive relationship prior to having sex. It hasn’t happened yet.
Bren 11
How exactly do we navigate this? I have tended to let things play out the way you say… just watch and they will show you who they are… I have no problem with this method… because I do enjoy the process of getting to know people…
Recently one man pretended to like my dog… All in one short visit he spilled the beans revealing that..he really does not like dogs… He also claimed to be a Christian (trusted him) but finally told me of his convoluted idea of Evolution backed into Christianity theory… He got into a heated debate with my son in law in my home…about something he was terribly misinformed about… Fortunately my son in law saw the wisdom in backing down and letting him just have his way… for the sake of not wanting to make a scene…as this man was insisting on doing…. It seemed that he NEEDED to be right! I had invited him to come for dessert and in the short time he was here… so much was revealed…It was as if I did not even know him…but I thought I did… It made for a rather sad ending on Thanksgiving day…
Then there was the sweet and adorable guy… who had one too many drinks one evening… and had an abusive irrational outburst treatingvery badly… and scaring me… His excuse was that he treated me like his ex treated him….He said he was not ready to let go of his bitterness for her…and did not know if he ever would…. I had just began to see his bitterness for her surfacing… Earlier that evening I asked him about the idea of forgiveness… so that he could move forward…. he seemed resistant so I did not press him..Later that evening came the nasty irrational behavior…
Basically they were telling me what they thought I wanted to hear all along… In my profile I talk about things that are important to me..and trusted that someone would not be deceptive….
I now have MUST LOVE DOGS on there….and a little more about how important I believe faith is in relationship… etc.
So… Evan…where is the happy medium between asking the important questions up front… and wasting your time?
I’m sure I sound like someone who has been lied to….and truly do not want to interrogate anyone… It is disheartening to find that people are less than honest about their true feelings…and say what they think you want to hear…
My ex husband held up a facade for 13 years…..(which it turns out has always been his pattern). Now…I’m finding other men through on line dating doing the same….
Is it me? Am I doing something wrong? I have a friendly profile and also have expressed what is important to me….not in a threatening way but in a conversational manner…. thinking this would allow men to realize that we are either together on these things or not…. It seems that they may think that once I like them I might deal with the major difference they chose to leave out… regarding faith differences etc..
NN 12
I don’t have those problems since I meet men just to have a good time.
No sex included, since most men are not f*ckable.
I only f*ck those I have hots for, and I know those men when I see them. Others are just friends, (since the difference between a friendship and relationship is sex, and I don’t have sex for any other reason than because I’m sexually attracted to the man in question..)
I prefer selibacy till then since I don’t prostitute myself to have lukewarm companionship.
But I do have a lot of male friends.. =D… They know my stance, and they can live with it.. If they don’t, that is their problem and I find new friends.
So why would I want to know where that relationship is heading? Since it heading nowhere when I am not interested sexually… and if he can change my mind, then fine.. so far (last 4 times within last 10 years) it has gone nowhere, as sexually no-show man is sexually no-show no matter what he does.
SJZ 13
Hi Bren, #11
I have run into the same thing you have. I write a clear profile telling men what I am looking for and then find out we really do not agree on most of the important things in life. I don’t quite get it. Sometimes I think they are just looking at the pictures and not reading the profile. I hate to sound like I am interrogating anyone but, how do you know if a man has read your profile or not and really means what he has said? So many profiles are so generic that I have no idea who the man really is. I guess there is a long learning curve on this whole thing. I still don’t get it and I have been on and off on line dating for 3 years!
Karl R 14
Denise said: (#6)
“it would be nice to hear a man articulate that he is trying to better understand women and why we do what we do. Other than, [...] –those are doing things, tactical.”
I’m sensing a double-standard.
When you try to discover: “Does he have a good relationship with his mom, his sister, and his exes?” you’re seeking tactical information. By focusing on specific individuals, you’re trying to determine how we relate to women in general … therefore, how we’ll potentially relate to you in the hypothetical future.
When you refrain from interrogating us (because you’ve learned that behavior pushes us away), you’ve applying purely tactical information.
If you were purely seeking knowledge for its own sake, you’d be equally interested in trying to understand why the 80 year old man blatantly stares at your butt in the grocery store.
Of course I try to understand women. I do it so I can apply that knowledge to my benefit. I practically have to, if only for self-defense. Since you’re trying to understand men for the same self-serving purposes, I’m not seeing where the difference is between you doing it and me doing it.
Denise said: (#6)
“can you as a man understand (or do you buy) into why women get ahead of themselves as a matter of course?”
Sure. You want to know the future before it happens. You want to avoid getting hurt. You want to avoid investing your time, energy and emotions into a dead-end relationship.
And a potential relationship allows you to play that tantalizing “what if” game.
Denise said: (#3)
“Does he have a good relationship with his mom”
What if I don’t?
My mother suffers from an anxiety disorder (OCD), and it warped our entire family life as we grew up. After I was on my own, we fought at least half the time we were in contact with each other. When I suggested that professional counseling might be beneficial, she took offense and our relationship disintegrated.
We haven’t spoken in five years. As a consequence, it’s a lot easier for me to maintain an even keel than when we spoke regularly.
But I’m not going to mention my mother to a date without bringing up the entire context. Otherwise, I’m judged by that one snippet of information.
And that’s what Evan is warning against.
ValleyForgeLady 15
Women who are seeking a committed relationship walk a fine line of either seeking a future too soon or staying to long in a dead end relationship. I have done the go with with the flow with so many wrong men that I find myself talking myself out of any man to avoid the pain of knowing that I have made another bad choice. This seems like a no win situation.
I am facing the New Year with a ” why bother attitude”. I find the men on line to be passive and unavailable. I hear from the very young and the far away guys. The guys my age and close to home just look and do nothing. Or I hear from them via email and phone and they disappear……and then reappear. What is a lady supposed to do?
My problem with help-the-ladies find love community is the idea that we cause our own problems. I am paralyzed with all this self blame.
Diana 16
To P #7, to answer your question, “No. You do not have to sleep with him for any reason under any circumstance.” You should only sleep with him when it feels right to you, and when you are ready. A lot of women will sleep with a man for a variety of reasons that have little to do with how they truly feel.
And if the man couldn’t respect my feelings and be mature enough to realize that I wasn’t playing games, well then we’d both know that we weren’t a good match.
My personal approach is not to create a rigid or pre-determined time line with regard to “when” would I sleep with a man, though I do know that I am not a first-date kind of woman nor likely to during the first few dates. I do need a certain amount of time to develop a sense of trust and comfort-ability before engaging in such an intimate act. But if I really liked the man, I am sure I’d let him know my feelings, such as looking forward to our being together, etc., so he’d know there was hope.
Steve 17
Rachelle 4
Wow, good article and very timely! I think I may have interrogated my date last night! Poor guy.
My only shit test is if a woman gives me too many shit tests.
I’m on the date to have a good time and get to know a human being. If that isn’t happening there are other places to be and other people to be with.
Diana 18
Are you sure these thoughts are “unconscious?” I know plenty of women who have these conscious thoughts right out of the gate, maybe even before they meet the guy!
This article kind of made me chuckle because the guy’s doing something similar: “Will she be good in bed; I wonder when she’ll sleep with me; I hope she’s not a drama queen or a gold digger or crazy like my ex.” But it is true that most women haven’t mastered slowing themselves down and compartmentalizing, and living only in the moment. Totally understandable and against our nature.
What’s interesting to me is that I don’t understand why letting a guy know what you’re looking for or talking about former relationships (even in the beginning) means that you don’t trust him. If he lets me know what he’s looking for or asks about my former relationships, does that mean he doesn’t trust me? Maybe it has to do with whether they seem to be interrogating you?
I agree that no one should enter into dating assuming the worst. Our thoughts have a way of delivering what we believe. If you are the kind of woman who doesn’t trust men, guess who will cross your path. If I had a bad vibe about a guy, to the point of wanting to do a background check, I’d likely never agree to date him. And lasting love (not lust or infatuation) takes time to grow, and setting a must meet deadline regarding sex is going to be a show stopper for most guys.
But I get the message: no one wants to feel pushed, untrusted or being toyed with, so learn to go with the flow, stop it with all of the expectations, over analyzing, and negativity, and just enjoy each others company and see where life takes you.
Diana 19
To SJZ #13, I feel your pain. I believe that, initially, the majority of men in OLD only view the photo, scan the stats, and don’t take the time to read the profile. I think you can sort of gauge the men who do read profiles by looking at how they write their own, but I could be wrong. They’re playing the numbers game and hoping that someone will respond. If the woman does respond, then he’ll read her profile (hopefully).
If I receive a flirt or an email where there’s no evidence that it appears he read my profile, I don’t respond, unless it’s the generic, “No thank you.” If he did view my profile, but doesn’t mention anything in his email, I will usually respond with a comment about his and what did he like in my profile.
Denise 20
#14 Karl R
So, some of my posts are getting mixed up in regard to meaning.
“it would be nice to hear a man articulate that he is trying to better understand women and why we do what we do. Other than, [...] –those are doing things, tactical.”
I was trying to get to the reptilian/instinctual brain of women–things we cannot control about our species. When a women understands that a man is bottom line ALL about sex at his instinctual level, then it becomes a lot easier to understand a lot of his behavior and desires. (Before anyone goes crazy, I do not mean by any stretch that’s ALL men want. That goes into the mammalian and higher brains, which is not what I was referring to) It’s easier to become less defensive about it and more easy going, light hearted. It helps to not have negative feelings towards a man because he’s caught up in sex in his brain 24/7–he can’t help it.
If a man understands about a woman’s need to know and solve mysteries, that’s it’s instinctual and she can’t help it, then maybe he can nagivate that a little better with her, perhaps to reassure her in a different way. Sure, one could stay this is tactical, but I see it as being strategic. (I think of tactical is, ‘Gee, I know she likes flowers, so I will bring her flowers and that will make her happy’, then he doesn’t do the other things that she needs instictively and wonders why she’s not happy, “Geez, I’m bringing her flowers, why isn’t she happy?”)
You want to know the future before it happens. You want to avoid getting hurt. You want to avoid investing your time, energy and emotions into a dead-end relationship.
These are two different things. One deals with the reptilian/instinctual brain (You want to know the future before it happens), the others deal with the mammalian and higher brains–these work with emotions, reasoning, beliefs and are unique to each human being. I am only referring to the instinctual part of this need to solve mysteries. (By the way, a way a man can build attraction with a woman is to create mystery. This is powerful stuff.)
“Does he have a good relationship with his mom”
What if I don’t?
But I’m not going to mention my mother to a date without bringing up the entire context.”
Then don’t bring it up proactively, any of it. I do not interrogate people, so I would NEVER ask someone on a first date what their relationship is with their mother.
I’ll re-iterate what I said above: but am paying attention during conversation about clues about these and other things, like his relationship with his children. I’m trying to get a picture of a man’s overall character and ability to ‘do relationships’.
In the course of a date, there are many, many things to talk about (I hope!). As a matter of fact, I would be wary of a man that brought up a situation like you describe on the first date. Not about the challenges of the situation specifically, the fact that he would bring something up like this with someone he really doesn’t know.
No one’s life is perfect or without struggles, I’m not looking for perfection.
Denise 21
#18 Diana
But I get the message: no one wants to feel pushed, untrusted or being toyed with, so learn to go with the flow, stop it with all of the expectations, over analyzing, and negativity, and just enjoy each others company and see where life takes you.
Well said! I think it’s instructive for women to talk to themselves using this kind of language when they are feeling anxious about the need to know where he’s at, what he’s thinking, etc. What works for me is to visualize ‘leaning back’, take a deep breath and tell myself that God has a plan for me, so relax and enjoy the moment and the rest will take care of itself.
What’s interesting to me is that I don’t understand why letting a guy know what you’re looking for or talking about former relationships (even in the beginning) means that you don’t trust him. If he lets me know what he’s looking for or asks about my former relationships, does that mean he doesn’t trust me? Maybe it has to do with whether they seem to be interrogating you?
Yes, it’s not the questions per se, it’s how they are being asked and in what context. If it’s appropriate for the conversation that’s going on, asking a man if he ever sees himself getting married again doesn’t seem to violate any trust in my mind, and I think he would agree. Vice versa as well. Asking about all the intimate details about his past relationships and then commenting on things could bring up some trust issues (even trust in regard that he’s not going to be accepted for the person he is).
Denise 22
#15 Valley Forge Lady
It sounds to me like your femininity feeling is on the low side. When that happens, we have less passion for ourselves, less passion for men, less passion for life.
Femininity = Obtaining resources from men (time, attention, labor, humor, affection, money–some or all of these) + Purpose greater than self
I have no idea what your situation is, but would suggest, if you’re not already, to not rely 100% on on-line dating. Interact with men in PERSON everywhere you go, it doesn’t matter if they are married or single, that’s not the point. The point is to have them open doors for you (labor), to chat with them in line at the grocery store (attention), have them help you with something (labor), have them make you laugh (humor)–I’m sure you get the gist of what I’m saying. If you can do this, and pay attention to the way you feel as a result of those interactions, you will feel your femininity get a boost and your outlook will change.
ValleyForgeLady 23
Denise……….. You are a dear to address my concerns. Actually I have wonderful problems….I know that men find me attractive but finding a significant connection is a challenge. I did find Evan’s article on Pretty girls who cannot find boy friends…..on the upper right of this blog. It made a lot of sense….it is a numbers game and it does take time. On this New Year’s Eve I celebrate that I am not in a dead end relationship and that I know the New Year brings lots of promise in the economy and in my love life. This is true for all of us if we take on the right attitude! ATTITUDE IS EVERYTHING….THAT IS WHY WE ARE HERE!
Ruby 24
I think there are ways to discover things about a date in a casual way without interrogating them. And you can have physical intimacy with someone without having sex right away. In my experience, a man who truly likes you will wait until you are ready for sex, and I’ve only had one man move on because he didn’t get laid by the 3rd date. Not a big loss.
Lots of people present a facade online (and off). That’s why I believe in dating more than one person at a time in the beginning and getting to know each other gradually. Two or three months is certainly a reasonable amount of time to take to see if someone is relationship material, which is what dating is all about. Most people won’t be.
Katarina Phang 25
Amen…brother! The more you are relaxed and enjoy the experience as it unfolds, the better you get whether it is ballet, football, sex or dating/relationship.
I have put it to test first hand. It works wonderfully.
starthrower68 26
I think I may have this dating thing figured out: act like a man; but on the other hand, don’t act like a man. What??
Selena 27
LOL Star!
Steve 28
Oddly enough, cartoonist Dan Piraro has been having similar thoughts to EMK
http://tinyurl.com/2f8nsap
Happy New Year!
AS 29
When you’re really keen on meeting someone, or feeling deflated from going on numerous dates and not meeting the right man, that’s often when you’re more likely to think about the future and not pay attention or enjoy the present moment. Coupled with fast-paced lifestyles that many people lead, they feel that they do not want to waste time (as they do not have much expendable social time) so they approach dating as a potential employer seeking a husband. Of course, this is not going to bring out either their best qualities or that of their date’s, potentially resulting in them losing out on a great realtionship opportunity…
Michael17 30
AS, this might be related to your point. As a guy, I am noticing–my experience and that of my male friends–is how women often seem to come to a “yes/no” conclusion at the end of a first date/meet-up, in a way that doesn’t serve anyone.
The thing is, it seems that they say “no” so quickly that I’m wondering if women are passing up on second dates with guys who would be great for them. Many of us guys are scratching our heads here because the first date/meet-up seemed to go well, with easily flowing conversation, a kiss by the end of the night, even holding hands. We’ve basically got our lives together too. But she still doesn’t want to see us again. What did we do for her to be certain there’s no point in us seeing each other again? She still doesn’t know us! What was she looking for?
And then when they do say “yes” to a second date, they overwhelm the guy with all this talk of The Future. We start to feel crowded here. Just because we agreed to a second date doesn’t mean that we’re thinking of settling down or that we want to stop dating other people. Can’t we just enjoy each other’s company here?
What I am getting at is that as a male, it seems that women and their selection criteria is out of whack. On the one hand, your gender seems to be writing off guys who might actually be great for you in the long run because we don’t check the boxes off some arbitrary list. On the other hand, you meet someone who is clearly all wrong for you but go for him anyway because of “the chemistry”. [The "Rockstar" blog is a little extreme, but it was along the lines of what I was thinking about.]
Cat 31
#30-Michael17
You want to kiss and hold hands on a first date but not be crowded if you get to the second after that whirlwind first? Hmmmm. Sounds like you think a woman who accepts a first date kiss/hand hold is implying a future date–and you get mad when it turns out they don’t–yet you don’t want to hear any such talk on a second date… Bit of a double standard.
Also, women have these same complaints about men. It’s a unisex complaint. One side thinks the first date is incredible and assumes the second only to find out it’s not happening and have no idea why… But if you’re a woman, you read this book and understand why.
Michael17 32
#31–Cat
This is what I am saying: I (and my male friends) have gone on plenty of dates that seen to have gone quite well. What has happened after that about 95% of the time:
(A) No second date (75% of the time)
(B) Second date with the woman thinking we are further along than the guy is ready for (20% of the time)
It’s either drought or deluge. No in-between.
I’m not seeing where my expectations are unreasonable or a sign of a double standard… Kissing seems to me to be pretty normal first date stuff, holding hands maybe less so but it happens far less often (I should have put “even *sometimes* holding hands”). On the other hand, thinking that going on a second date makes you a couple just seems off to me. I mean, what’s the rush to decide?
Cat 33
#32-Michael17
Just remember that they’re probably dating numerous people, not just you. (Same as you are doing.) So maybe they had two other first dates that week/month. Perhaps they connected more with someone else… Or perhaps they felt you moved too fast and implied “the Future” on the first date!
As a woman, I’ve experienced a lot of your (B) (except with a guy, instead of a woman, since I’m straight.) I call (B) “rent the chapel” guys. They know nothing about me, really, but they’re practically ready to tie the knot! Both sides think they experience that: either drought or deluge. No in-between
Which is why Evan’s advice, though targeted towards women, works for both sexes!
Your (A) may feel about you how you feel about (B): I mean, what’s the rush to decide? And then just never follow through.
Actually, someone may have a great third date with someone else after that handholding first date with you and she goes with the other guy… If you want less expectations from someone on a second date, it’s only fair you carry those same low expectations into date #1. Don’t you think?
AS 34
Michael17, unfortunately both men and women can be dismissive after a first date – without even really knowing you. I often wonder whether the reason behind this is that we are now spoilt for choice – i.e. with accessibility to single people via dating services that we did not have 10 years ago, people have become more judgemental knowing that if X date does not work out, they can just go back online for example and find someone else.
As for women thinking that there is a future as you have agreed to a second date, maybe you should hold off kissing (other than on a cheek) and holding hands on a first date and see if that makes a difference?
Sayanta 35
Michael- #30-
This sounds a little like us girls who wonder why guys don’t call back when everything is going great.
I can’t speak for guys (or other girls either), but for me, when I’ve most likely left guys wondering why a second date didn’t happen, it was because I just saw some ‘red flags’ on the first date that made me think that this guy wouldn’t be one to go out with again. But this didn’t mean that I wasn’t enjoying his company in the present- especially since I knew I wouldn’t see him again.
It’s hard to draw a generalization on why all women or all men do or say a certain thing. Haven’t you ever failed to call a girl back, or just abruptly ended things? If so…what was your reason? Chances are, women who do such things are thinking along the same lines.
When on a date, I try to ask questions (in a non-confrontational, natural way) that delve into what a guy’s character, future goals, etc. are like. If I’ve gotten the distinct impression that they’re not a fit for me, I don’t go out with him again. But that’s no reason not to hold hands, have an easy conversation, etc. on the first (and last) date, because you’re just having a good time in the moment.
Jadafisk 36
Also, women may be much less likely to talk about the future and consider exclusivity on the second date if men were much less likely to attempt to escalate physically on the third.
“She still doesn’t know us!”
Ideally, how many dates should it take to find out if you *want* to really know someone? Dealbreakers can be revealed fairly soon, and they’re often possessed by very kind people with whom very nice conversations can be had. Also, if someone dates someone for a month, doesn’t discuss a committment and makes the decision that the answer is “no”, a woman could still be accused of sending mixed messages and being flaky if they end a casual dating relationship the way people do – by not returning calls and leaving no explanation. Furthermore, women are regularly pressured to give men they aren’t at all interested in a chance, and that’s what they give them - A chance… not two months worth of chances and a warm bed before they decide that yeah, I’m really not interested in that guy. Do you really want to have your time, energy and money wasted like that?
Michael17 37
Red flags? I mean, I have a good job, good energy, get along well with my mom… So do my guy friends. So I’m not sure what you mean, #35 Sayanta.
OK #34 AS and #29 Cat, so if women are so swimming in options, e.g., all these dates that are going so well for them, then what’s the problem? Where do you all go afterwards?
I ask this not to interrogate (hope it isn’t coming across that way), but I am curious. There’s a lot going on in the minds of women when they decide whether to see a guy again, from how she felt when she was with him. to other things. I definitely don’t know it all, but I would like to know more.
Harriet Bond 38
I have not yet been on any dates through this, but like others think I am going to find it difficult to get the balance right…. do you question and be cautious or just be casual and see how it goes? My resolution is to try and be casual and not to expect too much of someone until I know them better, but also keep my boundaries in tact. I have spent my single time building these up and I think it’s important not to sacrifice them no matter what. As for ‘scaring off’ men, if they’re right for me, they will not be scared off I presume? At the end of the day, life itself is trial and error, and dates and relationships can’t be pre-empted or controlled by me. I probably just have to take my foot off the accelerator just a little bit and have faith!!!
Selena 39
Jadafisk,
“Ideally, how many dates should it take to find out if you *want* to really know someone?”
I really liked your post # 36. Summed up the frustration of dating only to find out “he/she just isn’t that into you” after 2 months very well. Especially when it was someone you “gave a chance” to, that you may not have considered before.
Sayanta 40
Michael-
I didn’t mean ‘red flag’ as in there’s something inherently wrong with a guy (sorry if it came out that way). I meant ‘red flag’ as in the guy and I wouldn’t necessarily mesh together as a couple. You can have two perfectly nice people who just are wrong for each other.
BTW- you didn’t respond to the rest of my post
I asked whether you hadn’t ever failed to call a girl back or decided after a date or two that she wasn’t the one for you. I’d be very surprised if you’d never done this, but I guess anything is possible. If you have, what was your reason? Chances are, the girls who are doing this have similar reasons.
Denise 41
Sometimes the man or the woman can’t say specifically what it is about the other person that makes them not want to spend time with them. There will be no answers or closure, so one must just go on.
I know for sure there are men that I didn’t go out with again that thought the same thing as you Mike. One I can think of from late summer–nice guy, great job, active and had a lot to offer. There was something he said (grammar) that just made me think, “I am not going to correct him on what he just said, but neither can I hang out with him and hear him say that without saying anything.” He also had a teenage boy that sounded challenging, something I wouldn’t want to get involved in (I have teenage kids).
These things may seem small, however, I am not in the ‘any man will do’ mode, I want to be happy and I want to accept him for exactly who he is. Plus, I have a full life and don’t have a problem being single. So like Jadafisk said, why put the guy through the dates if I knew I didn’t put the effort in myself.
Hopefully that gives just an idea of what goes on in someone’s head. I am positive things like this go through a man’s head as well as things are coming up on a date. (Like when, on the first date, she scolds him for something he just ordered, that’s a good example!)
#36 Jadafisk
if men were much less likely to attempt to escalate physically on the third.
I enjoy a man who is sexually confident and ‘spicey’. I like to know that he’s sexually attracted to me and not afraid to tell me. It makes me feel powerful as a woman–not that I’m going to use that power manipulatively in any way, I feel very feminine when that happens. (I haven’t been with a man that is crude or immature about letting me know.) What I have found when it doesn’t happen, even when I know the man is attracted to me but he’s not communicative about it, I lose interest. What it comes down to, in my mind, is the man is supposed to initiate the sexual interaction, the woman can always say no. (Obviously this doesn’t apply in a long term relationship
.
Keep in mind too, biologically, men are all about sex, they can’t help it, that’s the way men are made. So I don’t hold it against them because ultimately I’m the one, as the woman, that decides if and when sex will take place.
Michael17 42
You answered my question Sayanta and I thank you, so yes, I will answer yours…
Yes, I have not called a girl for a second date. And the first date went well. What happened then? She was was nice enough to join me for an evening, and as it’s my life too, I like to make the most of the present moment and have both of us have fun. I’m also feeling a couple sparks of attraction here and there, but that doesn’t mean I’m truly feeling it beyond friends, or even that I could ever imagine being truly into her. I can appreciate and enjoy who someone is, without feeling that she is the one for me.
If I’m really into you, I’m actually tightening up somewhat. Maybe it’s even cute…
Did I answer your question?
Denise 43
Wouldn’t that go the same way for women then? Especially for men and women who both are looking for a solid relationship based on mutual attraction? Not just physical attraction, but an attraction to want to get to know the other person more? I also think that because on line dating gives us more opportunity to date, the number of ‘no-go’ dates is going to be higher as well.
Michael17 44
Denise #42… Yes.
Sayanta 45
Michael-
aha- so the same thing’s probably happening to you…as a ‘highly sensitive person’ it pains me to say this, but it really is a numbers game. And timing.
AS 46
So may be the lesson here for both men & women is to ‘treat others how you would like to be treated’…