Do You Want Advice or Do You Want Validation?

“Women don’t want advice. They just want you to listen.”

I remember the first time I learned this principle – courtesy of Alison Armstrong. In delivering her “Celebrating Men, Satisfying Women” seminar, she gave a distinctive and visual metaphor to describe how men should deal with a woman who is venting.

Alison holds out her arms into a hula hoop sized ring in front of her body… “This is a toilet,” she says. “Your job, as a man, is just to hold her hair and rub her back as she vomits her story into your toilet. As long as she’s speaking, you just hold her hair back. That’s all you’re expected to do. That’s all we WANT you to do.”

In my experience, she’s absolutely right: women do want men to listen silently and unconditionally to them as they speak. Don’t interrupt. Don’t offer advice. Don’t do anything, guys. Just listen. It’s cathartic to her and it makes her feel connected to you.

But, beyond the surface benefits of feeling better, does she LEARN anything from these good “conversations”? Probably not. It’s hard to learn anything if you’re doing all the talking. What a venting woman gets out of it is the illusion of a kindred spirit – the person who nods and understands and tells her exactly what she wants to hear: nothing.

“This is a toilet,” she says. “Your job, as a man, is just to hold her hair and rub her back as she vomits her story into your toilet.”

This isn’t, in and of itself, a bad thing. It’s what supportive girlfriends are for. The reason I’m bringing this up is because we guys have no idea how to handle such conversations. I just got off the phone with a friend who was listening to his sister vent about relationship issues for an hour on the phone. He told me he didn’t say anything the entire time, didn’t know what he was supposed to be doing, didn’t know even why they were having this conversation – since it was the same exact conversation they’d been having for months. Yet, at the end of the call, she told him that she felt better. Even though he didn’t speak. Even though she didn’t learn anything. Even though she’s going to suffer from the exact same relationship issues and be on the phone with him again in three weeks.

My advice to him – in the likely event that she comes back for more “dialogue” – is to listen to her until she’s done, and then ASK her if she’s open to hearing his thoughts. By getting her permission after a venting session, she knows he’s fully “heard” her and that he has nothing but her interests at heart. And if she doesn’t want to hear his thoughts, then that says a lot about what she sees her friends for: blank sounding boards designed to tell her what she wants to hear, as opposed to what she needs to hear.

Men are fixers. Men are problem solvers. Asking us to not do what we do naturally is a tall order.

We’ll listen to you, all right, but please know that the only reason we give you advice is because we CARE and want to HELP. In other words, we see ourselves as Good Samaritans. Unfortunately, you seem to want us to be Innocent Bystanders.

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79 Comments »Filed Under Communication

79 Responses to “Do You Want Advice or Do You Want Validation?”

Honey 1

I have the opposite thing happen – Jake will vent about his work, and then say, “well, don’t you have a response?” And I’m like, “I have absolutely no idea what it is even possible to say right now.” I don’t even work in the same industry and barely understand what he is telling me!
Steve 2

A toilet seat can either be up or down. Why do women *tend* to automatically think that it is proper for it to be down for their consideration instead being up for the consideration of their men?

In the same way, why is the emphasis on men to change their proclivities to nothing but listen rather than for women to change their proclivities by learning to not to need so much emotional validation? To not bring up problems unless they intend to do something about those problems?

I say this as a person who finds venting to be very helpful in getting me settled enough to DO things about my problem. I try to be there for my friends to vent to me when they need it. However, I have had situations like Evan’s post where a female friend would have 1/2 hour long monologues…….repeatedly.

It started making me anxious to hear about someone’s pain and not be able to do anything about it.

I learned to tell myself “this is not my problem, I will not be hurt” when she called. It helped. One time I even put the phone down to go to the bathroom. I cam back and she was still talking and didn’t even notice that I was gone.

Venting is good. Getting emotional validation is helpful. Yet, if you are venting about the same problem over and over again……..well, you got a problem. You need to do something.
HRGoddess 3

And then some of us are like sponges, we get dumped on with a lot of venting (sometime about the same things over and over again) . Yes, the person venting feels better but the receiver is completely stressed out. What do to about that…
Paul 4

I think this “venting” to men and not expecting us to offer a way to fix the situation has gotten way out of hand. As Even said, men are fixers by nature and that is what we do, and what we’ll continue to do. I think it is bad advice to tell men…and you hear it ALL the time…to just sit there and let women go on and on about nothing is stupid. And this is exactly what happens…nothing. That’s a little like men saying to the women “hey, screw the hell out of me when I want it, then make me a sandwich, and then shut the hell up”! Fat chance!
Steve 5

@HRGODDESS Post #3

When I was a kid some scary movies were just too scary for me sometimes. I discovered that I could reduce the horror by telling myself it was just actors performing a script. It wasn’t real.

I discovered a few years ago that I get anxious when people tell me about their problems, at length and repeatedly…….without a resolution being discussed. In other words, heavy duty over-venting.

I remembered my old trick for the scary movies, adapted it to this situation and it *helped*. When on the phone with such friends I tell myself it is their problem not mine, it will not hurt my life, they do not gain anything by me feeling anxious – it is okay to feel happy and that I am helping by just letting them talk.

I’m still not cut out to be psychotherapist, but my ability to be there for friends without it upsetting me has greatly improved.
JoAnn Anglin 6

But sometimes sympathy IS wanted. Some situations cannot be fixed – job loss, death of a parent, etc. Then a woman needs to be told, It’s crap that it happened to you. How can I comfort you? etc., etc.
Karl R 7

Paul said: (#4)
“I think this ‘venting’ to men and not expecting us to offer a way to fix the situation has gotten way out of hand. [...] I think it is bad advice to tell men and you hear it ALL the time to just sit there and let women go on and on about nothing is stupid.”

Let me refer back to, and expand upon my statements from the previous topic.
http://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/i-want-to-stop-having-sex-with-my-boyfriend-until-we-get-married/#comment-59428

Women don’t owe men sex. Men don’t owe women a listening ear. And neither is owed a relationship.

You don’t want to listen to her? You don’t have to. She might dump you because of it. That’s the possible consequence of your decision.

You can’t change women (or men). You can choose to change your own attitudes and behavior.

And if you’re dating someone who wants to complain about the same thing incessantly without listening to your thoughts on the matter, do yourself a favor and break up with her.
Honey 8

Steve, sadly your toilet seat example is not a good one. The worst-case scenario of your bare girl-parts getting submerged in the toilet and getting a yeast or bacterial infection because it’s not clean enough is way worse than the worst-case scenario of not noticing the seat is down and having to wipe up fresh urine, which is sterile. Of course, in my house the entire lid has to be down but that’s because otherwise the cats and dog will drink out of it and that is just gross on too many levels

The whole venting/problem solving debate is just another example of everyone going, “Well, I shouldn’t have to change my innate response to someone else’s emotional stresses” and then resenting that, when you have a problem, no one is willing/able to give you what you need. In a way Evan’s advice here seems opposite his usual advice, which is “accept that you can’t change the other person, so either change your response to the person, or remove yourself from their presence.”

That said, if someone is venting about the same thing over and over, and not taking any advice or action to solve the problem, then I usually say something along the lines of, “I’m sorry, I can’t listen to you vent about this particular issue any more unless you are taking concrete steps to change the situation for the better. I’m happy to give you advice if you both want it and take it, but I am no longer willing to be your sounding board.”
Honey 9

I will also say that in my experience, when women want to vent the real problem is that they don’t feel heard – so listening IS helping. I don’t vent often because my close personal friendships are drama-free, I don’t really talk to my family, and I love my job – but the things I am most likely to vent about are when other people don’t take my recommendations or advice about something! So if it feels like the person you are venting to doesn’t “hear” you, then it just makes the original frustration worse.
Yvonne 10

Maybe I’m an exception to the rule, but I don’t think that all women just want to vent without being given perspective or suggestions in response. I can only speak for myself, but I know my own thoughts pretty well, and I’m usually looking for a “reality check” or another point of view that I haven’t yet considered. So for me, I’d have to say to any men willing to listen to me, “React and fix away!”–here is at least one woman who wants you to do what you do best…help me solve or fix the problem…and I’m very appreciative when I get that kind of attention.
Emily 11

Okay, gotta say something here. Not all women are like this. In fact, I am a woman and I am very solution oriented. I have noticed however that MANY of my female friends are like this (what you describe above) and it DRIVES ME NUTS. I am always ‘the guy’ in the conversation. Suggesting what to do, how to fix the thing and so on… No, they won’t have it. Anyway, just wanted to put my two cents in and say that not all women are like what you describe, thankfully!!!! Damn it, I talk because it’s the means to a solution!
Melissa 12

I agree with Emily. Not all women are like this. I rarely tell anyone stories or my troubles “just to vent”. What’s the point of talking just to talk anyways? Unless its to your shrink, but even then you want them to “fix it”.
I tell any problem or situation I’m having to a man or woman hoping that they’ll have some useful feedback or provide something I haven’t thought of.
Diana 13

Interesting topic. My experiences have taught me that men do indeed want to fix what they are interpreting to be a problem when, in most cases, it’s not a problem nor does anything need to be fixed, solved, or advised upon. This isn’t a complaint. It’s completely understandable because it’s their nature. And a good man will want nothing more than to be your hero, and to make you feel happy.

What I sought wasn’t a voiceless, deep well for me to pour my emotions into, but a comforting and validating connection through touch and words. Someone who truly listened and heard my heart.

My former husband and I learned how to better recognize the differences between us: I tried not to approach him with too much of an emotional overload, if at all, whenever he was having time to himself or busy, and he knew that all I wanted was to be heard. Sometimes all it took was a lasting, strong embrace to make me let go of my emotional burdens. It was this greater understanding that often led to my wanting to know what he thought. I valued his opinions, but sometimes my emotional burdens became his out of his love for me, and try as he did, I don’t think he either knew how to handle them or he simply could not carry their weight.

He was my rock, my touchstone, soul mate, and best friend. It was the most natural thing for me to share my world with him; too much so I think. He wanted to always be there for me, and he was, but I believe this frayed our marriage. It’s one thing to vent about your horrible day. It’s another to be an emotional river.

I am an island now, and I process my emotions differently with no man in site. And yes, sometimes repeatedly. It’s just the nature of women.
Steve 14

@Honey, post #8

It isn’t an opinion that makes me look good to women, but I feel comfortable enough telling you this. I’ve heard that view from women before about the toilet seat down vs the toilet seat up question. The first thought that comes to my mind is that the woman needs to learn to look before she shit and not be so careless.

A clever woman might add the rejoinder that men need to look before they pee and I would have to agree. I do make it a point to turn on the light in the middle of the night, no matter how much it hurts my eyes.

So alas, we come back to an impasse in the battle of the sexes.
Steve 15

@14 – I meant to write “look before she sits”. Oy one day I will develop the habit of proofreading.
Steve 16

Emily and Melissa, I’m glad to know that women like you exist
TripleM 17

As I always point out when someone yet again brings up the ridiculous War of the Sexes Over the Toilet: do some Interwebz searching on what exactly happens when you flush a toilet, and you’ll quickly come to the conclusion that EVERYONE should close the ENTIRE affair — seat and lid — BEFORE flushing. Yah, microscopic fecal- and urine-laden droplets spraying all over your counter, your hand towel, your toothbrush . . . niiiiiiiiice.

See how solution-oriented that was?? Like a few of the other female posters, I also have a strong analytical bent to my mental makeup. I was in a long relationship with a guy in which *I* was “from Mars” and *he* was “from Venus.” Drove. Me. Crazy.
Casey 18

I get tired of hearing men say, “We’re problem solvers.” Of who’s freaking problems? Certainly not mine. Frankly, I’m a better problem solver than most men…and they know it. I don’t, and never have, needed a man to solve my problems. However, I have assisted many men (and women for that matter) in solving their problems. People often seek me out for advice not just for them, but for their friends also.
I can, however, quite often use a male point of view versus my point of view or another female’s point of view. Problem with guys is, they don’t want to listen and offer advice most of the time. They want to tell you what to do…and if you listen, thank them for their opinion, and then make your own decision which might not be what they told you to do…they get mad.
And when I say men…I’m not just talking about guys I’m dating or (were) married to…it includes my father, my brother, male friends, male co-workers, etc.
Diana 19

Just to add that I, too, am a great problem solver; very analytical. My career has been focused on utilizing this strong skill.

I was the problem solver in my marriage. We often joked I was the brain of the operation. Nearly every decision, big or small, revolved around me. I wanted my former husband to take on a more proactive, participatory role in the decision making because of the tremendous responsibility that I carried. I realized that at some point, someone had to take the lead.

I am not prone to anger easily and choose to try and see irritants in a positive light. “Venting” is not something I do often. I am exceedingly calm. I think it was the responsibilities and the problems and challenges that life throws your way: lost jobs, money issues, health concerns, raising children, etc. that created the emotional fears and anxieties that would boil over.

One thing I learned from him is that when he said, “You are a strong person, way stronger than I am,” I didn’t fully see this at first, though I had survived a difficult childhood. But since our divorce, I have learned that he was right. I knew I was strong, but somehow in all of my leaning on him, I had forgotten just how strong I can be standing on my own.
I think a lot of people seek the advice of others, vent or whatever, and then proceed to do what they want anyway, and this sometimes means repeating the same patterns over and over again until they are forced to make a change. Some people learn quicker than others. Some not at all.
Honey 20

@TripleM, yes, I have read about toilet flushing and it’s pretty terrible. I remember reading when I was 9 or so in reader’s digest an article by a microbiologist who claimed that the only way to make sure your toilet was *truly* clean was to douse it in rubbing alcohol and set it on fire.

Being 9, this sounded pretty awesome to me and I immediately offered to be the toilet-cleaner of the family if only my mother would let me set it on fire. Sadly, I was turned down…
InaccessibleRail 21

I agree with those saying “not all women are like this.”
Many times I’ve been venting about something, the man has been sitting there listening mutely, and I’ve had to wring my hands and frustratedly ask, “Well, what do you think I should DO?!”
I don’t vent to vent. I have a therapist, Twitter, and Livejournal for when I need to dump. If I’m wasting another human being’s time on something, it’s because I actually think they’ll have something to offer in the form of insight, help, a solution, or maybe just a figurative smack in the face.
Evan Marc Katz 22

I don’t think it was implied that “all” women are anything. I’m making generalizations, which is necessary when giving gender-based advice to a large swath of people. Just because it doesn’t apply to you doesn’t mean it doesn’t apply to many women.
Helen 23

My gut feeling is that this can’t be stratified along a women/men divide. Rather, it is the difference between extroverts and introverts, and there happen to be more extroverted females and more introverted males.

A MBTI expert who came to our workplace and had us all take the MBTI (one component of which designates people as Extrovert or Introvert) pointed out that extroverts like to talk about their problems, because in the very process of doing so, they arrive at a solution themselves. Introverts, on the other hand, think about the problem in their own minds and don’t speak until they’ve already derived a solution. Anecdotally (for what it’s worth), I know this to be true of my husband and myself.

The extrovert doesn’t vent necessarily for the purpose of advice. He or she does so to talk the problem out and thereby to better understand what to do about it.
Betty 24

In a properly run household, both the seat and the lid should be down when the toilet is not in use. This is not a gender issue. This is a design issue. And a courtesy issue. No one needs to glimpse the inside of the bowl in passing, especially if the toilet has been used since its last cleaning (which is most of the time).

Thus, both genders have to lift something in order to use the toilet. Both genders have to return something to its proper place after use.

Likewise, turn off your faucets after washing your hands. And always wash your hands after using the toilet. Again, not a gender issue.
Selena 25

I’m with you Betty…the lid should always be down when not in use. It’s a simple asthetic issue.
InaccessibleRail 26

As far as the toilet seat argument, it’s flawed for this reason: How many men go #2 standing up? If, in a given period of time, there are an approximately equal number of men and women, and there are more instances of men sitting down to go #2 than women standing up to go #1 (and keep in mind I’m talking about home toilets, not public), then the majority of toilet interactions for a given couple take place with the seat in the “down” position. Put another way, she always needs the seat down. He sometimes needs the seat down. If he’s really out for the good of the couple, why would he lobby to have the seat up, a position that is inconvenient to someone in the couple about 70% of the time?
HRGoddess 27

I’m trying to figure out how a venting issue became a toilet seat issue… just venting lol
starthrower68 28

Ok….I respect the fact that men are just being men when they want to give us advice; but how many times are women told NOT to do what is in our nature in the world of dating? I truly don’t mean to be difficut or start the war of the sexes all over again, but that just kind of struck me.
bob 29

@Helen # 23
Interesting idea, and while I’m a BIG fan of the MBTI, I don’t believe this is split along Extrovert/Introvert lines.

I’ve only met one or two men who vent in this way, and yet most men I’ve met are extroverts (by observation and statistic….us “innies” represent only about 20% of the population). If this was an extrovert behaviour, then most men would behave this way.

That being said, extrovert men do tend to engage others to solve problems, but they don’t vent. I see the difference very clearly when noting how I and an introverted male friend approach problems/challenges, vs how our extroverted male friends approach them. Us introverted guys will work the problem/task solo, until engaging another person is absolutely required, while an extrovert will engage others first, even if they don’t really need assistance.

There’s some very interesting research out there using Functional MRI scans (FMRI). These scans identify the areas of the brain that are activated during different types of tasks. Depending on the task type, male and female brains are activated very differently.

Casey commented (#18):
“I get tired of hearing men say, We’re problem solvers. Of who’s freaking problems? Certainly not mine. Frankly, I’m a better problem solver than most men and they know it.”

I think you missed the point – the stereotype is that most men think solely or primarily in terms of solving a problem/accomplishing a task, and are little concerned with how they feel about it. That’s what’s meant by “men are problem solvers”.

Oh, and please spare us your indignation over this (very valid) stereotype. It’s tired and hackneyed (the indignation, that is). Also, you sound very critical of men. It’s old. Let it go, whatever the source of your animosity toward men is, let it go. The guys on this site don’t deserve your condemnation – we’re trying to help present a reasonable male perspective.

Oh, and here’s my tit-for-tat….I’d bet a month’s salary I’m a better problem solver than you. Not a very useful statement, now is it?
Hadley Paige 30

This seems to have morphed into a side discussion about toilet seats and their proper position.
I don ‘t think the thing is worth getting tense about, BUT when I meet a woman & she gets into this thing about insisting the seat be down all the time, bc “it’s fair” or “its’ courteous” or or or, I know she is going to be a pain in the you know what about other things as well. So its a red flag for me.
Casey 31

starthrower68 reminded me of the comments I read all the time saying… don’t try to change a man, take him as he is. But most of the advice and comments one reads about women is…how woman needs to change to get a man. Seems ironic to me.
anette 32

Hey!!! Something fishy is going on here!!!

We are expected to just accept the way a man is, but when it comes to the way we are, we have to accept we need to change the way we are with men, so we can accept men for the way they are.

errrr….. Perhaps you didn’t mean that, but this is what it sounds like.

I am perfectly willing to accept realities of male behaviour and I know I cannot change them but it works both way’s.

Kar R #7, you are absolutely spot on.

When a woman talks about a problem, it makes her feel better, It makes her feel close to you, and even if you Don’t understand it, it is the way a woman is. This is one part of ourselves, wether you like it or not, that we cannot change and IF we do not feel like we have that shoulder to cry on, or yes..the set of ears to listen to us, we cannot feel close to you emotionally. And what do you think happens, when we don’t feel close to you? We don’t WANT to get close to you physically. This is not a threat, it is just a reality for women. Our libido’s are tied to our emotional state.

Having said all that..(yes I just vented), there are a few rules I try and stick too, when it comes to venting.

If I need to vent, I let my guy(or male friend) know I need to vent. I’ll say something like “I really need to vent, are you available”? If he cannot listen at that moment he can say no. (nicely).”Sweetie, I really can’t at the moment, but I’ll give you a call as soon as I can”.

I accept this, as I do not expect him to “get in the mood” anymore than he should expect me to alway’s be in the mood for bedroom activities. If he never follows up however, then he will be showing me he’s not really a great male friend.

Then, when I vent, I keep it as short as I can. I won’t vent for an hour, usually perhaps 20 minutes or so. I get it all out, and then I give him a big hug and a kiss and say thanks for listening. I also won’t continue to vent about the same thing for months, as that is getting a bit ridiculous. Yes, be that set of ears and the big ole teddy bear that we sometimes require.

I do agree with Evan’s advice , on listening and then asking her if she wants to hear your thoughts. Sometimes, it’s really just a vent and no view is necessary however.

Yes, women do need to make a little effort in this area, to make it easier on men, but if you expect this need for women to vent, talk and have you listen to be removed or changed eventually, then it is the equivalent of us asking you, to get rid of your desire for sex.

Any man who asks this is asking the impossible.

Word of advice. Find a woman who is happy, and who you like talking too. Happy women don’t need to vent AS MUCH(though they will still need it), as they will fix the big problems rather than only complain. If they do feel like a chit chat, then you’ll be interested in what she has to say.

And if a woman say’s she doesn’t need to vent, but alway’s wants to solve the problem, you are probably dealing with a woman who creates drama/problems(and is very willing to tell you ALL about YOUR problems), so she can solve it. She will most likely give you a constant stream of unsolicited advice and then get angry when you wont’ validate her opinions by taking her advice. Be wary of a woman who say’s this, because she IS MY MOTHER!!! lol. Women WILL find a way of getting verbal validation one way or another. This is one rule, that has no exceptions in my, not so humble opinion.
anette 33

EEK!! Wall of text sorry
Selena 34

Re: #30

If I were dating a guy who wouldn’t put the seat down when at my house, I might see it as a sign of disrespect and passive-aggressiveness. And he might be that way about other things as well. Hadn’t thought about it before, but yeah, that could be a red flag for me.
Melissa 35

Hadley… a woman wanting the toilet seat down is a red flag? Really??????
You’re truly making Evan’s point about the danger of broad generalizations… “Women who want the toilet seat down are going to be a pain in the ass so I’m outta here”
95% of women I know want the toilet seat down and the other 4% are just being nice and holding back from telling you they prefer it; so I guess that leaves you with 1% of datable women who TRULY don’t care.
Casey 36

Bob @#29: Thank you for advising me what I was thinking and feeling when I wrote my comments at #18…indignant, condemning and critical of men. I didn’t realize that was what I felt, but you cleared it right up for me, and have set me on the straight and narrow. I’ll be changing that attitude to make sure it doesn’t ever happen again.
Reading what you said you’re post, you are right. You are a much better problem solver than me. I will now go forth in the world and live my life accordingly to what you said, because after I made only one post, you were able to identify my issues, advise me of them and solve them for me. I am impressed and grateful for your help.
Thank you.
P.S. In the future, I will also be sure to adhere to, and act accordingly any time I encounter a “valid stereotype.”
Betty 37

Bob@29: Thank you for pointing out where Casey went wrong, and thank you, Casey, for being gal enough to own up to your character flaws. The guys on here are great problems solvers and are so reasonable. That’s the main thing. Their ability to reason. That’s why they’re such great problem solvers. And after a good day of problem solving they just want to leave the seat up. Let the one with those unreasonable girl parts solve a problem for a change!

Really. They’re only trying to help us poor confused gals out.
bob 38

@Casey #36

I’m glad you understand.
Evan Marc Katz 39

I’m noticing a pattern. The men (myself included) offer a male viewpoint, which may contradict your female viewpoint. Yet instead of responding to the male point of view, some women occasionally attack the men themselves. Sometimes with extreme sarcasm. Sometimes with out and out attacks. Sometimes I even delete them because there’s nothing remotely constructive about them.

I’m not playing favorites, but just observing here: even when Bob was at his most animated, he was referring to Casey’s argument, not Casey.

He successfully paraphrased what I was driving at in the original post: “The stereotype is that most men think solely or primarily in terms of solving a problem/accomplishing a task, and are little concerned with how they feel about it. That’s what’s meant by men are problem solvers .

Thus, it’s not that we’re “better than you” (the impression you may have had which he dispelled in his last line: I’d bet a month’s salary I’m a better problem solver than you. Not a very useful statement, now is it?) It’s that – in general – we’re task-oriented, not process oriented. We’re willing to bruise feelings to fix stuff, where women – in general – try to protect their girlfriends by supporting them. “No, you don’t look fat in those jeans,” being the most cliched example.

While this may not apply to YOU, it applies to MANY women. Pick up a Deborah Tannen book about the linguistic differences between men and women. You’ll see. Men say “Shut the window.” Women say, “Do you think it’s cold in here?” You’ve heard this yourself, I’m sure.

Spun another way, women are much more sensitive to feelings – and because of that – aren’t as likely to be direct or blunt. This makes women better listeners than men – who may be just as effective as men at solving problems – but know when to hold off in doing so with their own girlfriends.

If you can acknowledge that my last “pro-woman” paragraph makes sense, I hope you can acknowledge the validity of my original post – and Bob’s comment as well – without the sarcasm and attacks.

The kind of men who read (and write) this blog are the GOOD ones, and should be treated accordingly, instead of as an adversary, which we certainly are not.
Helen 40

So as not to inadvertently offend any women who read this, I’ll speak just for myself and my girlfriends:

Venting is a form of BONDING.

We love getting together to vent about our days, our lives, our work, partners, families, etc. Sometimes we’ll get direct advice, sometimes we won’t. It doesn’t matter – why? Because, if I can try to boil it down to its essence: the purpose of venting with friends is that you get reassurance that you’re not going crazy – that others have experienced the same thing, or are experiencing the same thing. So you’re all in it together, you’re not struggling alone, and your feelings are validated.

I’ll share two recent examples of venting: one of my galpals started venting to me about someone she was having difficulty working with. Turns out I’d had difficulty working with him too, and had thought I was the only one! It was SO nice to hear that I wasn’t going crazy, or that there was something wrong with me or my judgment. Meanwhile she was afraid there was something wrong with HER, so I reassured her that wasn’t the case.

Another time, I was the one venting to a different galpal about how demoralizing it was to have a mouse in the house and to have traps that weren’t doing their job. First, she made me feel better because she assured me that others were just as upset to have mice running around their house (it wasn’t just me being irrational). Then she offered multiple other solutions, one of which did eventually work.

Venting is good for the soul. But maybe the lesson here is to do it with likeminded girlfriends, not with men? Instead, we’ll ask you men to actually catch the mice.
Casey 41

Evan@39:
“Oh, and please spare us your indignation over this (very valid) stereotype. It’s tired and hackneyed (the indignation, that is). Also, you sound very critical of men. It’s old. Let it go, whatever the source of your animosity toward men is, let it go. The guys on this site don’t deserve your condemnation we’re trying to help present a reasonable male perspective.”
So let me see if I understand this Evan — Bob’s statements quoted at the start of the previous paragraph are not directed at me personally but rather my argument…somehow I misread Bob’s statements that said “you/your” in connection with the comments — that I am indignant, very critical of men, have a lot of animosity towards men, and condemn them — by thinking he was referring to me personally?
Huh! It must have been his use of the personal pronouns that threw me off.
bob 42

@Helen #40

Wow. Let me say that again – WOW. “Venting is a form of bonding.”

Now that really puts it into perspective for us guys!
bob 43

Followup to Helen #23

Helen said: “The extrovert doesn’t vent necessarily for the purpose of advice. He or she does so to talk the problem out and thereby to better understand what to do about it.”

Interestingly, a persons’ learning style also plays into this (check out learning styles here. Being a kinesthetic learner myself, with a strong verbal component, I learn best by doing or listening/talking ideas through. This means, that although I’m largely introverted, talking/listening/writing for me are means for developing and understanding of ideas.

Perhaps extroverts are more often verbal or kinesthetic learners than introverts.

I wonder what the stats are on learning styles and gender?
Evan Marc Katz 44

@Casey #39 Here’s some specific lines from your #18 post illustrating your attitudes towards men:

Indignation: “Of who’s freaking problems? Certainly not mine.”

Critical: “Frankly, I’m a better problem solver than most men and they know it.”

Animosity: “I don’t, and never have, needed a man to solve my problems.”

Condemnation: “Problem with guys is, they don’t want to listen and offer advice most of the time. They want to tell you what to do and if you listen, thank them for their opinion, and then make your own decision which might not be what they told you to do they get mad.”

Thus, Casey, Bob’s observation wasn’t an attack, but an observation based on the evidence you provided in your post. You can defend yourself all you want, but you’ve already hung yourself with your own words. Bob merely said that your arguments (not you) were specious, and that such attacks didn’t serve the intelligent men who read this blog.

I happen to agree with him. So while I encourage you to continue to offer your opinions on this forum, please leave out the personal and gender-based attacks, as evidenced by your previous comments.
Selena 45

My observation has been certain people enjoy venting more than others and that trait is not linked to gender. This thread rather bears this out…starting with the OP.
Janeen 46

I am not into fighting with things about with my boyfriend. He was a seat-up kinda guy and it bothered me. I told him it bothered me. He gave me the “why does it have to be your way” defense even though I agree with the above that it isn’t “my” way, it’s the polite way. He sort of improved in his habits, but then started to “forget.” So I started leaving my open boxes of tampons and sanitary pads in the bathroom. I also used the bathroom wastebasket for my menstrual trash. And once I “forgot” to flush after changing a tampon. When he got skeeved out I just said that it was easier for me as a woman to have these things handy and that if I weren’t living with him this is how I would do things.

He got it. No problem since. And when I say that I have a problem with something he is more open to listening and talking it out rather than stonewalling change via his behavior.
Selena 47

Wow Janeen! What an interesting passive-aggressive way to get the point across. Alot more pointed than buying a super thick fuzzy toliet seat cover lol.
Hadley Paige 48

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RE melissa @ #35
95% of women I know want the toilet seat down and the other 4% are just being nice and holding back from telling you they prefer it; so I guess that leaves you with 1% of datable women who TRULY don’t care.
____________________________________

No Melissa it doesn’t.
I don’t know where you live, but the population women you know are not likely statistically representative of the population women who date. This is a common error I see here. Inductively reasoning that one’s experience is representative.
My experience has been that the last 4 women I have had LTRs with have not made an issue out of the the seat must be down or its fill in the blank here rude, gross, passive aggressive, intended to annoy me, etc, etc, etc. I guess I likely won’t be dating the women you know.
I didn’t say if the women wants the toilet seat down I am out of there. I said it was a red flag. You attribute a completely incorrect quote to me. Let us at least get the facts straight.
Selena 49

So Hadley, what would think about dating Janeen?
Magnolia 50

I love your website. Especially since, at 53 years of age, I’m still trying to figure out the male psyche. Totally fusin’
It is true, women want to be “heard”. They don’t want to be fixed, managed, advised or corrected. I can’t speak for all women, but I can tell you that if I want advice I will specifically ask…”What do you *think* about this” or “Will you help me this?” of “I don’t understand what to do, do you? can you fix this?”
In fact, I’m very good with language in general and I know I’ve told my husband of over 11 years now that when I want advice, I will ASK for advice. I promise. To date he doesn’t believe me.

I
Casey 51

Evan,

I do not know how I went from commenting on my personal experiences with men and the notion that they are problem solvers to making gender-based, personal attacks on all the men of this blog. I did respond to Bob with extreme sarcasm as I felt, justly or unjustly, personally attacked by him.

If my comments about my personal experiences with men were construed to be a personal attack on any men on this blog…then I apologize, as that was not my intent. To the best of my knowledge, information and belief, I do not know any of the men on this blog, so I cannot comment on any of them personally, or speak to whether they are good or bad men.

It was, however, my intent to be a commentary on the men — some really good men and some really bad men — that I know or have known personally, and that when a situation of the type described in your blog post arises, they use the fallback position that they are problem solvers. In my personal experience, it is a cop out.

I’ll give you an example. When I was having trouble deciding what college to complete my undergraduate degree at since I worked full-time during the day and could only go to school at night, I asked the advice of a trusted male mentor, who was also my boss. He advised me to go to the more prestigious college for undergraduate because it would help me get into the graduate program I wanted. I listened to his opinion, considered it and decided it would be best for me to go to the less prestigious school because it had a night program and I could not afford to quit my job and go to the more prestigious college with no night program. When he found out, he became very angry, and in front of our co-workers yelled at me that I was being stupid and I shouldn’t come crying to him when I didn’t get accepted in a graduate program.

This is typical of my personal experience with men (be it a father, brother, uncle, friend, co-work, mentor, etc.) and their offering advice and problem solving skills. It may not be your experience or the experience of anyone else on this blog…and it may not be how you or any man on this blog would have handled the situation…but it is, as I said, typical of what I have personally experienced.

So, you didn’t like the way I stated it. Okay, I get that. It’s your blog and I’m just a guest. Perhaps I could have started out with this story instead. Live and learn.

Casey

Note: For the record, I did go to the school with the night program, and got accepted into the graduate program I wanted without a hitch. But, at the time, his angry outburst made me question myself and my decision.
Casey 52

Ooops! As soon as I hit submit, I realized when I re-worded the fifth paragraph…I forgot to add back in boyfriends or a husband in the list of men that this is my experience with…they should have been.
Selena 53

Sometimes people do get angry when the *solutions* they offer to other’s problems aren’t followed. This isn’t a gender trait either. And sometimes the person who vented/asked for advice doesn’t want to hear the *solutions* offered anyway. I love this quote from writer Erica Jong:

“Advice is what we ask for when we know the answer, but wish we didn’t.”
Laine 54

I have been on a dating site for the past year, and every guy I have met for a coffee or a drink on the first meet, has talked about his ex wife, ex girlfriend or other women he is dating or is in love with…..and I am the one nodding my head and listening.

Of course I have never accepted second dates with these men as they came across as being not ready to move on from their past relationships, or in having any interest in finding out about me.

I see their behaviour as venting. Also very boring. I do not think this is necessarily a female behaviour as Evan suggests, but more a state of an Individuals self awareness.
Betty 55

Janeen: Brilliant!!!!
Lorianne 56

@Steve If you want a strictly mathematical rationale for leaving the seat down, look at the percentages. Women need to have the toilet seat down 100% of the time. Men need the seat down for whatever percentage of the time they have a bowel movement. That means that for a majority of the designated uses of the toilet, the seat should be down, which means the default position for the toilet seat should also be down. How does that work for you?
Lorianne 57

@Hadley Paige — when I encounter a man who insists that the toilet seat has to be UP, that is a giant red flag for ME. The toilet seat should be down, period, unless you specifically NEED it to be up, then it should be returned to its default position. That is all.
Lorianne 58

@anette and others — yes, that seems to be the tone of this blog. Men are what they are, and women have to not only accept it, but change the way they function if they want to have “successful” relationships. Not much of an incentive to jump into the dating pool, is it?
Evan Marc Katz 59

@Lorianne And what would you prefer that the tone be? Women can change men? Women should fantasize about a world in which men conform to all of your wishes? Sorry. This is a reality-based blog. I am a reality-based dating coach. The women who are loyal readers are the ones who know that I’m an advocate for YOU. I report true, and sometimes unpleasant, realities about men, and give you guidance about how to better navigate the choppy waters of dating. And for this, you shoot the messenger?

You will be empowered in dating if you listen to the dialogue here. But if you spend your time invested in the unrealistic notion that men should change, then guess what? Nothing in your life will change.

It’s your call. Just know I’m pulling for you every step of the way – and I’m telling you the truth about what men think because I think you deserve to know – not because you’re going to like what I report.
Betty 60

Lorianne@57: Here is why a guy who leaves the seat up is a red flag. In all areas of our lives there are objects that are designed to fulfill a function. When they are not in use they are returned to their non-use placement (what you call the “default position”). That is why we close cabinets and drawers, put lids back on jars, shut the trunks of our cars, and lower the hood of the grill after we’ve turned it off. If a guy observes all of these unspoken rules about orderliness but then chooses to ignore the rule of orderliness in the bathroom, and further, gives a woman grief when she expresses displeasure about it, asserting the primacy of his peeing behavior, he is sending a big F.U. to his female partner. And it is an F.U. because she is female. Does not bode well for the rest of the relationship if he is the kind of guy who needs to mark his territory. This same type of thing will crop up again and again.

If, however, he observes no rules of orderliness, then he is just a bit of a pig and needs remedial work across the board.

Neither situation is good. We women do not want to be your de facto mothers, forced to “manage” your belligerence or lack of grown-up hygiene. If you force us to do so you will not get laid. No woman wants to sleep with a child (see annette@32).
Lorianne 61

@Evan Marc Katz — not shooting the messenger at all. And I’m not even opposed to change, but I’m not going to be the one making all the sacrifices and compromises just for the sake of maintaining a relationship. If I have to change, my man has to change too, that’s all I’m saying. If that’s unrealistic then I’m guilty.
Evan Marc Katz 62

It’s unrealistic.

You. Can’t. Change. Men.

You can change YOURSELF. Only MEN can change men.
Lorianne 63

As I said, then I’m guilty. Not worth twisting myself into a pretzel for a man who expects me to accept him as is. P.S. Lots of things that “couldn’t be changed” have been. It just took sufficient resistance against the status quo to do it. Just ask anybody involved with the Tea Party.
Lorianne 64

@Betty #60 Word. Couldn’t have said it better myself.
Joe 65

Two points:

Sometimes people get angry when their solutions are not followed because you have just wasted their time by describing your problem and asking for their solution.

For a guy, the default position for the toilet set is whatever it is for his use. Most guys will leave the seat down when they’re done with #2, and leave it up when they’re done with #1.

If a woman borrows her boyfriend’s car, how often does she return the seat and the mirror positions to the “default” positions of where they were before she drove it?
Betty 66

@65: The women I know drive their own cars. And own the bathrooms that the men are peeing in. And also clean them. Given all that, you put the seat down when you are through. Thanks for your cooperation with the careful, thoughtful management of a human life.
Evan Marc Katz 67

Imagine you’re dating a man who wants you to lose 20lbs. Or stop seeing your family so much. Or make more money, but work fewer hours, so you could make him dinner. How would you feel about this man who expected you to change? Exactly. Not very good.

Flip that over. That’s what I mean about acceptance. If you want to be loved, unconditionally, for who you are, without being micromanaged and changed, then you need to do the same for a man. If you don’t because you feel that acceptance is like “twisting yourself into a pretzel”, then you might have a hard time with this dating thing.

Love is about acceptance, not about change. Get that, and you’ll find love, sooner rather than later.

Good luck.
Betty 68

@62: This is the ‘ole “this is the way it is, so it must be the way it always was and always will be” argument so favored by those whom the status quo benefits. Ha!!!
Evan Marc Katz 69

“Whom the status quo benefits?” Huh? We’re all in this TOGETHER. There’s no happy relationships unless both women AND men are on board with acceptance.

Trust me: for most of my life, I had a series of relationships with women who DIDN’T accept me. My revelation was in discovering that there was a woman who WOULD accept me. I married her and am never letting her go. It’s exhausting being with someone who wants you to change all the time, wouldn’t you agree?

So please, stop making men to be the enemy here. If men were asking me questions about how to change women, they’d get the same reality check. I’m sincerely sorry if you don’t like what I’m saying, but really, give the negativity a rest. This is my blog. I really don’t need to defend myself, but I think it’s important that you understand that the message is for EVERYONE, not just women.
Betty 70

@67: The problem with your argument is that you are suggesting that women accept traditional roles that we have fought long and hard to break free of and that most of us are happy to see go. (In your example, the traditional female strictures would to be pleasing physically on his terms, take on household chores that might just as easily be shared, put the relationship with him above her other sustaining relationships, those that predate her relationship with him and might outlast it.) In other words, you’re making a case for female dependence on men without showing at all how it goes the other way. In the example you give you’re asking her to become subservient to him and give up her claims in the world–claims she might need were the relationship to go south. And you’re adding a threat–if she doesn’t do these subservient things, the relationship will definitely go south because she isn’t being accepting (read “compliant”) enough. To add insult to injury, she doesn’t even have a say in how the household is to be run (he still gets the seat up!).

This is not a compelling scenario for coupledom. Love is also about knowing what you won’t accept and having the guts to soldier on, being true to yourself, and finding the people of your tribe–men and women both. Maybe you weren’t compliant enough and had to learn that “acceptance” lesson, and that’s why this message keeps cropping up here, but for a lot of us gals we’ve accepted way too much bad male behavior. We did change in response to that. But it wasn’t to become more tolerant of b.s.
Betty 71

@69: I’m not making men the enemy. I’m acknowledging that some men are the enemy, as are some women. You keep telling women that they have to accept specific things about men. They do not. Then you follow it up with a threat that if they don’t they won’t find a man to love them. Again, false. There are so many men who do not partake of what many of consider “typical male” behavior. These are the men I know and love. They also happen to be men who consider leaving a toilet seat up after peeing to be very crude behavior and would be embarrassed if they did it, even by mistake. Just as a counter-example.
Evan Marc Katz 72

To wrap up this thread:

NOWHERE do I say to put up with bad behavior. Everywhere on this site, I tell women to leave men who don’t call, don’t commit, only want sex, don’t follow through on dates, don’t treat you well, etc.

EVERYWHERE I tell you to accept OTHER things that are NORMAL among GOOD men. That may include him being a flirt, it may include him being a workaholic, it may include him working on a different relationship timetable, it may even include him forgetting the way you like your toilet seat.

Choose your battles, Betty. But let’s get it straight: I’m an advocate for women who want to know how to handle men. Good men. Like me. Like my male readers. So for you to conflate clueless and inconsiderate bathroom behavior with a man who only calls you once a week…or doesn’t propose after 4 years… well, those are two entirely different stories.

I hope you can agree – and agree with everything else I’ve offered today. I am FOR you, not against you. And, as you can tell, it pains me that you can’t see this.

Off to coach more women like you…

Evan
anette 73

Okay before I read everything else, TY for those that did read my wall of text. God that was aweful!! hahaha. I appreciate you listening.

Toilet thing. He can leave it up if he wants. I’m just going to ask him to put it down. It’s a thing. It’s like saying I hate putting gas in the car. It’s a thing. I HATE PUTTING GAS IN THE CAR!! hahaha.

Not a big thing, he doesn’t have to do it, but…it’s really nice when he does, and I notice it. I’m a bit forgetful by nature and am worrying about other complicated stuff. Hitting the poop water(no seat), or hitting the “ding ding ding” no gas meter(my constant issue) sucks.

But in terms of equality, yes it should be “up” as much as “down”.

No reason either way. Weird huh? What is a sheila/bloke thing? It something you recognize, don’t understand and do, because it’s kinda sweet It’s a rule we know
anette 74

@ 65

You make a great point.

Do you put the seat down?
anette 75

@70 I don’t know how you got all that from Evan’s comments.

I did get the impression from Evans comments, that he was saying a little “too much” that women should curb their need for validation.

The Post title, say’s it all. Yes, we need validation.

Find the validation you are able to handle as a man, and find a woman that only requires that much.

Women will alway’s need it, just like men will in their stuff too And it won’t alway’s make sense.
Kat Wilder 76

Let’s face it, men and women are different doh and we react differently.
Women do need to understand that men are fixers, and men do need to understand that women want to be heard, and not always get advice (or, be “fixed.”)
I wish both sexes could appreciate those differences and learn how to work with them. And that means each couple should at some point have a conversation about what he/she wants his/her partner to do when venting, crying, etc.
Then, we should respect that (and be forgiven if we sometimes slip into old patterns). This is not rocket science; it’s communication (uh, which is often like rocket science!)
And, honestly, we women have trouble advising each other, too.
Ron 77

A funny little history story although you don’t have to post it.

Cato (of Roman times) said that we men rule the world and then we come home and women rule us.

Great blog and comments.
Greg 78

The whole point of the post is that men and women tend to communicate differently. Understanding that men and women have different communication styles helps relationships. He’s not saying one way is better than the other.
Leaving the seat up is not a character flaw. Many men have gone their entire lives without having to even think about such a thing. Its a minor thing. Women do annoying things that men have to deal with. I can’t make my wife stop liking trash reality TV programs and she can’t make me stop liking football. Acceptance is about being able to overlook minor things that don’t matter, and understand that men and women are different.
Nissa 79

Great article, Evan. I am not in a relationship, but I do have this issue with my Dad. When I tell him about my day, issue etc he will say things like “what you should do is….” or “you need to…”. Please note: this occurs even when I am merely giving facts about what someone has done (my lawyer filed this document and it will be 6 weeks before my court date,etc). This makes my eyes bug out as I bite hard on my tongue to keep from commenting.
Now, since this is my Dad, it seems to me that perhaps he has not yet realized that I’ve grown up and am a competent person. For me, there are four issues here. One, his ideas about how to solve things are radically different than mine. Two, when I provide information, I almost always have already decided what I need to do or am willing to do, but am expressing my discomfort with the situation. I genuinely do not want feedback. Three, his suggestions almost always stress me out and make me feel worse. Four, when I am providing facts, I am not always in the right place to help him process his emotional response to those events.
Now, my Dad has expressed that he is just trying to help, that it always makes him feel better when someone gives him suggestions. He didn’t know how to know when I needed feedback. My response was “Please don’t provide suggestions unless you get a direct request for it, such as: what is your opinion, what do you think, what would you do?”. I tried to make it clear when I would welcome input and when I would not. To be fair, when he discusses his life, I also ask him “Do you want input on that?” or “Are you looking for a suggestion?” before offering my thoughts. My first assumption is that he knows best what is right for him.
I also gave him specific feedback that he could offer that I would receive as helpful, such as saying “gosh, un-huh, wow, that’s big, what are you going to do?” This helps me receive his commentary without feeling judged or that he believes I am not competent to handle the situation.
When I do share my emotions about a situation with my Dad I try to specify ”I’m just venting, I don’t need you to fix this”, or even “I already have a solution, Dad, I’m just not ready to do it yet, I’m still too angry/sad/riled up”. Part of this is a belief I have that if I have an emotion, I don’t have to do anything about it. Just saying “I’m angry!” often is enough to move me past that emotion.
However, I almost always end with a comment of “Thanks for listening; that really helped” or “when you listen it really makes me feel supported, and I appreciate that”. I try hard to be clear about what I’m looking for and to provide the same to him.
What is good about this is that (in spite of the irritation factor) it is a process where we both try to respect what the other needs and wants. We both listen to what the other says and try to accomodate that person’s preferred mode of conversation. This has genuinely helped us communicate better and made the relationship more enjoyable.