Do You Want to Have Your Cake and Eat It, Too?

How do you know this?

Because if he wanted to be your boyfriend, he’d have tried harder from the very beginning. His very indifference and ambivalance to you – shopping around for other women while keeping you in the loop – tells the entire story.

I don’t have to stick around to see the end.

Neither should Ted.

Every second you’re with the wrong guy is a second you’re not looking for the right guy.

And neither should you.

Your takeaway from this blog post should be twofold:

First, realize that men and women are no different. And although it’s easy to berate men for being selfish, for using you, for not telling you their true intentions, the real truth is: this isn’t a man thing, it’s a people thing.

I just told you Tara’s story, but I literally have THREE clients right now going through the exact same thing.

Three women with no prospects 8 weeks ago; now, all three are putting OFF having a boyfriend because they want time to date and explore and maximize.

I would probably quibble that they should consider the devoted guy instead of looking for a more exciting, unpredictable player on the Internet, but that’s neither here nor there.

All you need to know is that you have two choices: act with integrity and let your man go find a woman who’s into him, or give up on any sense of moral high ground that you might maintain when complaining about non-committal men.

You can’t have it both ways.

The second takeaway I’d like you to have is to internalize the idea that the guy who is keeping you at bay for more than 6-8 weeks is probably never going to step up to the plate to be your boyfriend.

So dump him NOW and go out and find yourself a man who is EXCITED about you.

Every second you’re with the wrong guy is a second you’re not looking for the right guy.

Print Friendly

Pages: 1 2 << previous

Why He Disappeared is the smart, strong, successful woman's guide to understanding men. If you want to learn how men think, and rediscover how to have meaningful relationships - all from a man's point of view - click here to learn Why He Disappeared.

Do You Want to Attract the Partner of Your Dreams?

If so, sign up for my free dating and relationship newsletter and receive my free eBook, The 5 Massive Mistakes You're Making In Your Love Life - And How to Turn Them Around Instantly. Simple and effective advice to jumpstart your love life.

77 Comments »Filed Under Dating, Understanding Men

77 Responses to “Do You Want to Have Your Cake and Eat It, Too?”

J0hnny S 1

Maybe they’ve become infatuated with the thought that they are now desirable and want to experience what it’s like to actually options after years of rejection. That power of choice is intoxicating for someone that hasn’t been in that position before.
Selena 2

Excellent way to make the point Evan.
Sara 3

Excellent advice as always Evan: you’re right, it’s not a man thing, it’s a people thing. The sooner we stop seeing the other gender as an entirely different species the better! I have been in both Ted’s and your client’s positions.
coco 4

well i had a friends with benefits relationship and i made it clear from the beginning that i wanted no relationship….after 2 months he fell for me and now wants me to be an official boyfriend. (it’s now the 3rd almost 4th months now)…
i think guys take a lot of time to commit so maybe 6-8 weeks is still not a lot?
Happy Person 5

I think the sequence of photos here is funny. Having your cake: three cute tushes, propped up on elbows, gal in the middle. Single mom: three smiling faces, propped up on elbows, gal in the middle. If the camera pans from cute tushes around to the front shot of the single mom with smiling kids it would be an amusing commentary on the life cycle of the gal’s relationship.
Heather 6

Evan, you are most definitely correct here.

However, I couldn’t help but think, when I read this, well, hey, we girls go through it ALL the time, and it was the story of my dating life, for months. Of course the behavior is not nice, it’s cruel, it’s immature.

But still, the thought ran through my head: “Well, maybe if guys experienced this, maybe they wouldn’t treat a woman like that, in the future, because they know how it hurts.”

Now of course, I am not saying all guys do this. And again, I am not condoning this kind of behavior. I certainly do not behave that way towards men. I let them know, let them down easily, and will not keep them on the hook. And I do that because I know way too well, how much it hurts to be used, rejected, lied to. I get it. And I won’t screw up my karma by doing that to someone else.

Just a thought here.
Jackson 7

Evan,
Thank you for posting this article, the way you articulate complex issues opens my eyes regularly and today is no exception. In fact today you did more than open my eyes; I realized I am a ‘Ted’.
I have been dating a smart, strong, and successful, not to mention beautiful, woman for the past several months. She came on strong, we had a connection, and then she backed away silently. The spark and momentum disappeared completely. I tried to talk openly with her about it but I could never get a straight answer, I only got just enough to keep me hooked. When her dating profile went back up my exact thoughts were “What happened? Where did I go wrong? How can I fix this?”
The more I read, the more your story resonated with me. Desperate for answers, I sent your article to her and without judgement asked ‘do you feel like Tara?’ I received defensive and hostile responses; until finally being informed that I had “no long term potential, but do I still want to get together Friday night?”
Being put on the back burner while your partner searches for something better is incredibly hurtful, to both sexes. Without your help I may have wasted months in ignorance debating where I stood.
I think the greatest thing your site offers are the tools to quickly and accurately assess where you stand in the other persons eyes.
Keep up the great work.
Daphne 8

So, Evan, please remind those of us who are being treated as an option- what are we supposed to say to cut the drama short ?
Heather 9

Daphne,

There’s really not much to say. If you know for sure that you’re being treated like an option, you can either continue to see them and live through that drama, or end it. I realized a guy I was seeing, last summer, saw me as an option. I accepted a date from another man, and guy number one who was treating me as an option, was cut off. I informed him that I do not tolerate guys who disappear, or who make plans but do not follow through.

I’ve unfortunately had this happen to me alot, and was really devastated over it, until I read some dating blogs similar to EMK’s and realized I have power. I don’t have to put up with bullshit. So I began cutting guys off if they mistreated me. I told them to leave me alone. I informed them that being mistreated will not fly with me and if that’s how they behave, that I certainly am not the girl for them.

I received some hostile responses, but I stood strong. Now I’m dating a nice guy with NO drama, and he says he respects how feisty and independent I am, and that I don’t put up with stupid stuff.

Just get rid of the guys who treat you like an option.
Margo 10

Great article! Evan, is the man! By the way, these are some very selfish women in this article…
Evan Marc Katz 11

Thanks, Margo. But I still disagree with you. I don’t think these people are selfish. I think they’re humans with mixed emotions and desires.
Katarina Phang 12

Evan, is it possible that maybe she has reservations and isn’t entirely sure how she feels for him yet? Or she’s just not that into him?

I think timing varies from one person to the next depending on where they are in life and circumstances. Sometimes it takes longer than a couple of months for two people to be sure they want to be in relationship.

When it feels right for both, it feels right. Till then, I don’t think it’s wise to force it.
Margo 13

Jackson, I hope you don’t need any new information to know that you need to let this woman go on about her business especially since she became hostile. Don’t let her use you. Let her go, and find someone else more deserving of your time and attention.
Margo 14

Evan says: “Essentially, Tara wants to have her cake and eat it, too.”

What would you call this if not selfish??
Kurt 15

This is par for the course for most women. Tara is clearly leading Ted on. She has probably gotten a big ego boost because he is being “nice” and doing the right thing. Well if he is that attractive he will give up soon and find a woman who appreciates him more.

At her age Tara is playing with fire. How many great guys are going to want to settle down with a 39-year-old woman? Most of those guys probably want to start a family but if she plays the field for much longer, she’ll miss her chance.

I honestly suspect that sometimes women assume that a guy is way more into them than he actually is if he treats her well from the start and it is better than she has been treated in the past. I’ve met women before who made the same assumptions and tried to get away with certain things, yet were shocked when I told them I didn’t want to date them anymore because of their behavior.
Karl R 16

Heather said: (#6)
“the thought ran through my head: ‘Well, maybe if guys experienced this, maybe they wouldn’t treat a woman like that, in the future, because they know how it hurts.’”

As a man who has experienced this, I developed thicker skin.

Take responsibility for your own best interest. If you want someone who is interested in a serious relationship, dump the guy who isn’t (or at least start dating a second/third man). If you think it’s his responsibility to dump you, you’re setting yourself up for disappointment.
Evan Marc Katz 17

Everybody’s selfish, Margo. We look out for our interests first and others’ second. We don’t want to hurt people but yet people unintentionally get hurt. Men hurt women. Women hurt men, as you can see in this piece. Doesn’t mean they’re bad so I suggest you stop passing judgment on everyone who isn’t a pure altruist and is trying to maximize her happiness. It’s unbecoming.
Fiona 18

I have three first dates lined up in the next week and am feeling duplicitous even though I haven’t met any of them yet. This multiple dating thing doesn’t sit too well with me. In any event, I am a believer in treating others as we would want to be treated ourselves and we can’t really complain about how we are treated if we don’t. There is nothing wrong with not being in to someone after 3 dates but stringing them along is just not on.
Brenda 19

Just a thought…….sometimes I think that we are so used to being kept as a option that we don’t recognize a WONDERFUL MAN when we see him. I know that I was so used to men who did not come through for me that when I met my fiancé, I was (almost) surprised by the lack of drama. Surprised by how easy and how wonderful it has been. Still no drama from him – and we continue to have a phenomenal relationship.
Michelle 20

Self interest is NOT being selfish.

I wonder, how much dating has this women done in general? I’m thinking proably not much over her adult life since she’s hiring a dating coach and then at age 39? If so, perhaps the goals need not be to get a boyfriend, but rather than experience dating and experience dating different kinds of men so she learns what she finds attractive or not. There is NO substitute for experience.

Just a thought…
SusieQ 21

Ay, this article really resonates with me. I admit that I’m Tara and I appreciate Evan’s comment #11 saying that we’re not selfish but human beings with mixed emotions and desires. That describes me! Because I don’t want to be selfish, I did not put my profile back online after finding myself with a good man who seems loyal and true. But I find myself thinking that perhaps I wasn’t single long enough after ending a very long marriage. And I find myself wondering if I’m settling when I should be out exploring. I can’t help but think that I might be making a mistake. But I do love him and he’s so good to me. I just have second thoughts and mixed emotions and desires. But one thing is certain, if I’d be putting myself out there, it would be unfair for me to keep stringing my guy along while I explored. It is only sensible to either end the relationship or let it be an open and casual relationship which goes BOTH WAYS. If I explore, he should be free to explore, too.
Margo 22

You’re right, Evan. Selfish was the wrong word for this woman in this situation. It’s her right if she wants to explore more guys before picking one, with the caveat that it’s only right to tell her man of interest what she’s doing so as to not lead him on.

That is the only thing I would have issue with, not telling someone that you are dating/looking for others.
Jane 23

I think if she really loved this guy she wouldn’t be wanting to continue to explore other options, which is every person’s prerogative. i agree with the first comment from Johnny S, that she may want to enjoy her “power of choice”, something more often associated with men. Admittedly, my opinion is from someone a little older, with no biological clock issues and no need to marry for financial security, etc. Women should enjoy men and not feel pressure to commit just because a caring guy has come along. if nothing else, it is confidence building to date a number of different people. i agree with Evan though, that she should not string this nice man along if she doubts she would ever really be with him long tern. The important takeaway for me here, is YES, it’s great to meet a good guy who steps up to the plate, but it has to be the right one.
Dagaz 24

hm… well, i’ve been on both sides, yes.
but. it took for me years to reilize why exactly i pull off every time i meet a good, carying guy and why i subcontiously looking for emotionally unavailable men.
no, i’m not a heart-eater, not a player, not a man-phobiac. i love men. i really do. i admire them, their personalities and abilities which are so different from ours. but to overcome this huge, strong, life-long lasting block inside, with deeply engraved “do not trust!” – it’s hell of the deal.
yes, it started in childhood, yes, it was fed during the early years, yes, i understand it now – but it’s just so hard to trust, even if i really, really, really want to.
so, don’t hurry to throw the stone at such women – they suffer from that, too.
Ruby 25

EMK, you have written about clients like this one before. They spend money hiring a dating coach, then don’t take your advice, and decide they want to date around. Surprising, because you’d think that someone who goes to the trouble and expense of hiring you would be more motivated. It sounds like you have a number of clients who contact you after having recently ended long marriages. I get the sense, as SusieQ (#21) said, that they don’t have much dating experience, but then realize that they are just not ready for another serious relationship yet.
sephor 26

Tara is being selfish. She is not acting in self-interest. She does not consider this man a “future boyfriend” and wants to “explore [her] other options”, so her plan is to use his feelings for her to keep him around while she searches for the BBD. If she were acting in her self-interest, she would end the relationship while she continues looking. She would not use him as a backup, and even if his well-being was not her intent, it is ultimately in his best interest. I would call her a jerk and a user.
Blondie 27

I don’t think Tara is doing anything wrong. If she is now finding a lot of good men to date thanks to Evan’s coaching and good advice, it’s up to her to find the best guy for her if she is looking for marriage and possibly children down the track.
Tara may be having a great time dating a few different guys and is having a lot of fun for the first time in ages.

After 8 weeks if she wants to date other guys then she isn’t feeling it 100% for Ted. I know Evan has said if the chemistry is off the charts then run like hell, and that is very good advice if you have ever met someone who rocks your universe like never before and, yeah … where are they now!!

The first 8-12 weeks is sorting out whether there is some really good things happening between you or if there are things that are going to be a deal breaker. You can’t really afford to skip this step and need to take the time to get to know the other person. Everyone is on their best behaviour at first and you need to see the other person in all sorts of friends, family and social situations.

If you don’t love someone and know it, let them go to find someone who will love them. I know it’s very hard to tell someone you don’t feel the same way but staying with them when you don’t love them is pretty bad form. Better to be single for a bit longer and feel good about yourself for doing the right thing than
going out with someone you don’t like. Believe me, they do know and it’s a rotten feeling!
Selena 28

I’m interested in the time frame here. In the article Evan you state Tara went out with this man 3 times. How many hours does that translate to? 5? 10? I believe it’s possible to know within that time frame that you want to focus on each other – opposed to dating others - but not necessarily. Unless you were acquainted prior to dating, you barely know each other after only 3 dates. Why should one have to make a ‘commitment’ of any kind to someone they’ve spent so little time with?

Suzie Q (Tara), you write you do love him. Do you? I will venture most of us when we love someone don’t desire to see what else might be out there because – well – we are in love. If you’ve only gone out with Ted a few times, how can you be sure you love him? For me, it takes a couple months to develop those feelings and the result of seeing him nearly, if not every day. Many, many hours, not just a dozen or less. So I’m puzzled by how much time you and Ted have actually spent together.
Nadia 29

Kurt #15, there will be plenty of men who will want to date a 39 year old. You’ll see when you’re 39. Not everyone wants children.

I would argue that Tara–nor anyone for that matter–doesn’t have to settle for the first good man that comes along. In fact, I would argue that clinging to the first good man that comes along when you aren’t that into him sounds desperate and fearful. It seems to me that Evan has been successful in teaching Tara how to enter the dating world, showing her that she actually has more than one prospect, and now she wants to see what that’s about. There’s nothing wrong with that and Ted is most likely not the only good man she’ll find in the process, now that she has opened herself up and has put herself out there.

But, Tara, do Ted a favor and don’t string him along. That’s just bad taste.
Heather 30

@ Karl:

I DO take responsibility for my own actions, and once I figured out that it’s OK for me to be strong and stand up and call men out for treating me like an option, then I did so. I emailed them and said, “Thanks but no thanks. I will not be treated like an option. Leave me alone!” My point is that maybe if some guys would take away from that experience, that if they don’t like how it feels to be on the receiving end of that behavior, then don’t be on the GIVING end of that behavior, either. Just sayin.
@ Brenda:
YES. Yes exactly. I’ve been so used to being treated as an option, especially after the way my ex husband and a couple of post-divorce guys treated me, that I’m genuinely shocked by my current boyfriend’s good behavior. I still think, “OK, I’m being punk’d. Smile, I’m on Candid Camera! Where’s the bad boy behavior? Let me see it now, before we get too far and I get hurt. I’m ready to run as soon as I see it, so let’s see it now!” I’ve gotten so used to telling guys, sorry but you will not mistreat me, use me or abuse me, so hit the road, that it’s just ingrained. Of course, we are all responsible for our own actions, and I had to learn the hard way, how to walk away from a guy and tell him that I won’t tolerate bad behavior. I’m a Libra so confrontation and standing up for myself does not come easily. I totally understand how you feel.
MilkyMae 31

Tara seems to be self-absorbed in the decision process of picking partner rather than focusing on the building a relationship with someone. I’m of the opinion that a relationship is a goal to work towards and not some choice you make at the end of a month long taste test. You are always going to cold feet if you think it’s either 1, 2 or what’s behind door number 3.
Jadafisk 32

“there will be plenty of men who will want to date a 39 year old. You’ll see when you’re 39. Not everyone wants children.”

Additionally, Kurt,
Men in that age range also *tend* to have had children already if they had a strong desire for them. Folks can contend – despite the statistics that say that people marry people within 5-7 years of themselves generally – that men in their 30s strongly prefer women in their 20s, and that a significant proportion of those women are amenable to make such preferences feasible. But you’ve got to be kidding to say that men in their 40s are in the aggregate, going to tell a woman in her 30s to jump in a lake in favor of a woman at “peak fertility,” and the same goes for any scaling up in decades. Youth is relative, there are only so many nubile college aged women to go around (actually way fewer than there used to be), and they will prefer a man who knows their favorite bands, shares their politics, and doesn’t sound like their father. 35 year olds may choose Brad Pitt over Chris Pine – possibly because they have embedded memories of him at his physical prime that they cling to – your average 20 year old woman, not so much.

The difficulty with dating at later ages is culling. A higher and higher percentage of people who are older singles are going to be single by choice, due to chronic indecisiveness, or other personality traits that are fairly well established, difficult to modify and off-putting to many. People who are not in those categories get jaded running into folks who are and get less motivated to put themselves out there, in an increasingly fragmented social scene where people have to make an effort to find other singles over thirtysomething.

More than likely both Ted and Tara will eventually move on. This is often going to be the natural result of being advised to date people who you feel lukewarm about until they grow on you. Sometimes they never really do, and the person is faced with the difficult choice of rejecting someone with a personal investment in you and several dates underneath their belt. Rather than reject outright, they choose to do what’s easy for them and string them along. More devious people will extract as much of an ego boost and/or as many gifts and sexual favors as they can from that person while doing so. Sometimes people that just “want a chance” shouldn’t have one for their own good, and people who are exceptionally picky need to be honest about it with their prospective partners and themselves before going forward, and step away from their vision of an ideal partner slowly by degrees, instead of entertaining people who they’d never seriously consider and wasting everyone’s time.
Ruby 33

To me, 3 dates is enough time to know that you like someone and would like to keep dating them. It is probably too soon to take down one’s dating profile and forsake all others, and definitely too soon to know whether or not you are in love. How about 3 months, rather than 3 dates? What’s the big rush, especially if you are recently divorced?

Tara’s situation sounds different than Jackson’s (#7), who was dating a woman who was ambivalent about him for several months.
Joe 34

This is really just a case of greener grass. Tara has green grass, but she just can’t help wondering if there’s greener grass out there.
Dizzyluv25 35

Evan Evan Evan….. I don’t write here, but I tweet you every so often. Over the last 2 years of reading your blog and “Why He Disappeared”, my dating life has transformed. Right now I’m dating a guy that I wouldn’t have given the time of day before your pearls of wisdom.
I’m compelled to write, because my really good male friend is Tara in this scenario. He’s 41, never been married, no kids. He’s been dating this great woman for the last 4-5 months with no progression to a relationship b/c he “likes it the way things are”. He says he wants to be married and have kids. I’ll be forwarding this post to him.
Helen 36

I don’t think Tara has done anything wrong here. If she and her man have been happy with each other for three dates, that is a great and encouraging start, but not necessarily a reason to forsake all others yet. She seems to be playing it wisely. Evan, did you stop dating other women after three dates with your current wife? It would seem that seeing how things go for at least one more month is wiser than locking in to each other now.

Rhetorically: I’m not sure the title is appropriate to what Tara’s doing now, but what’s wrong with having your cake and eating it too? What else are you supposed to do with the cake?
Heather 37

Jadafisk wrote:

The difficulty with dating at later ages is culling. A higher and higher percentage of people who are older singles are going to be single by choice, due to chronic indecisiveness, or other personality traits that are fairly well established, difficult to modify and off-putting to many. People who are not in those categories get jaded running into folks who are and get less motivated to put themselves out there, in an increasingly fragmented social scene where people have to make an effort to find other singles over thirtysomething.

Good point here. I’ve been guilty of being pretty jaded about dating, and still am, somewhat. Sure, we have to be responsible for our own behaviors and try to catch bad behaviors early. But after awhile, it gets tiring, and especially if there are other things going on in your life. For example, my Mom is battling cancer right now, so between that and the drama of dating, I would probably just take myself out of the dating pool right now, were I single. It’s just too much, emotionally speaking.
Senior Lady Vibe 38

Perhaps it’s deja vu. I recall a Ted and Tara story from last year.

Ted is a nice guy; following up and attending to Tara is a good indication of that. But what happens when — due to a sudden online dating “feast” — there are three first dates in a week, all nice guys, all following up? Eight or nine hours into a relationship is still too soon for instant devotion from any of the men. I’d be comfortable with getting to know them over a longer period of time.

I like cake. Not enough to make me sick but I’d appreciate a creamy-frosted slice or two…

BTW, women the age of Alyssa Milano and Jennifer Garner seem young to me… but then again, I’m ancient. Are they really being culled out due to advanced age?  Really?
Margo 39

Sephor @23, I would agree IF she doesn’t tell this man her state of mine and let him go so he can do what’s right for him. It’s all about honesty and ethics. When a person starts putting their own self interests above hurting someone, then they are bad news.
sephor 40

Margo #39: I would agree IF she doesn’t tell this man her state of mine…

Will she tell him? If she tells him, what will she tell him? Will she tell him that she does not see him as her boyfriend. but that she does think that he’s good enough (for now) to take her on dates? Will she tell him that she doesn’t “want to throw things away” with him, but there might be someone out there better than him, so does he mind waiting while she finds out? Will she tell him that he is only ”one of the three men [she's] seeing right now”?

She knows he wants to be her boyfriend, and she knows that she does not want to be his girlfriend. If she stops seeing him, she can concentrate on finding the man for whom she does want to be a girlfriend.
Ria 41

I tend to agree on Johnny S on @1. It is a tricky road, thought, because should Ted suddenly turn around and cut it all off, she will be feeling not so secure exploring other options. Having said that, if she does not feeling it for Ted, she would not still be happy being with him. Honest would be probably to say it to him, how things are.
Androgynous 42

I respectfully disagree with Evan. This is NOT a “people” thing but a gender thing. Men don’t keep women around as “options”. They keep women around as booty calls – women they find attractive enough to want to sleep with, but not have long term meaningful relationships with. Thankfully they are not the majority of men, though a significant minority. Women, on the other hand, are opposite. They keep men around as truly “options”. Men they think they could have meaningful relationships with, but whom they are not madly deeply crazily attracted to, physically and sexually. They want to have these men to fall back upon should things not work out (which they never usually do) with their hotter, more exciting prospects. Unlike player men, there are many many many women out there who are like this. This is not to say they are bad women, but they just normal women exhibiting normal self interested behavior.
helene 43

Tara said: “…..I’m not sure I’m ready to commit to HIM” ….

This strikes me as totally reasonable after 3 dates, but I feel she’s tying herself in a knot because she’s forgetting there is another important option she could take apart from a)”committing to him” or b) dating him casually and seeing others as well. Her other option is: she could date him exclusively for long enough to actually DECIDE if she wants to be in a long term relationship with him or not. If, 2 months or 6 months down the line she decides he’s not right for her, THAT would be the time to put up her profile and explore other options.

Choosing to date him exclusively and see how it goes is NOT “committing to him.” They are not getting married, living together, merging finances or even necessarily planning next years vacation.They are simply dating. I have to say I sometimes find it frustrating when people equate exclusive dating with some sort of onerous and binding committment. Finding someone you even think MIGHT be a good match can be really difficult, so for gods sake if you meet someone with whom you could POTENTIALLY form a long term relationship, at least give it your best shot! The idea that you are somehow passing up other options is fallacious – match dot com will still be there 8 weeks from now if you decide he’s not right for you.

Nor do I think deciding to date him exclusively when you’re not sure is “stringing him along” - any experienced dater knows that dating exclusively is the only way to actually FIND OUT if someone is right for you. That is precisely WHY people date in our culture, rather than simply marrying someone they have met once or twice! It should be obvious as well that much as this man likes her and apparently wants to “be her boyfriend” he cannot possibly have made up his mind either. Neither of them are stringing each other along, they are simply at a point where they can choose to invest some time in each other and explore what a potential partnership might feel like. It may seem to some people that you can do this just as well whilst simultaneously dating others, but in fact, I don’t think you can – dating is a bonding process, and other suitors disrupt the bonding process. If, after a few months, the bonding is not progressing despite dating exclusively, then that is when to pull the plug and put your profile back up.

Just my 2 cents…
JB 44

I dunno, for those of us over 45 like myself & Jane that have no time tables for anything 3 dates is a ridiculous number to ask anything of anyone other than “would they like to go on a 4th date” in my opinion. Call me crazy…..lol that’s ok I’ve been called it before.

I guess for those gals that want to start a family they have to obviously make a decision quicker but date 3? I would love to know the statistics on Match for the percentage of couples who met and took down profiles after 3 dates or less. And believe me I KNOW it happens because I watched it happen to me a few weeks ago for another guy but it’s rare.

Evan ends with “Every second you’re with the wrong guy is a second you’re not looking for the right guy.”

Well the thing is with live visible online profiles you can be dating “wrong” people while your profile is still live looking for the “right one” so you can do both at the same time. I and many others I’ve seen have been doing it for years. I’m not saying it’s right or wrong. It is what it is. Even long before the internet back in the bar scene days people used to say “every night you’re out with someone you’re not that into is a night you could be meeting someone you are into” and THAT was true before the internet. But now people come home from dates with people they aren’t that into and check their inbox for the BBD. Heck, these days people take their phone to the bathroom on a date and check it with the APP….LOL It’s happening somewhere right now. Welcome to 2012!
Laura S. 45

Getting exclusive after 3 dates? I think not! That reeks of insecurity and potential jealousy, nothing I want in my life. I don’t even know the guy yet.

Dates grow in bunches under the fronds of palm trees. That’s why they’re called dates. If I am boyfriend shopping, I want comparisons, price checks and samples to find the best product to suit me. It won’t happen if I settle on the first model that insists on being exclusive with me.

If I haven’t had a date in a long time or had a boyfriend in a long time, I’m not sure what I’m looking for. Going exclusive with a guy after only 3 dates, I’m still not going to learn what I want in a guy.
Sherel 46

Three dates is way to soon to decide on someone in my opinion. Three dataes can happen in one week!! You realyl do not know someone well enough. I say continue dating him and keep yoour options open at this point. Down the road she can decide. And shes does not owe him explanation at this early stage . Both should just be enjoying and learning one another. (Married happily nine years and counting!)
Margo 47

Sherel, she DOES owe him something: honesty. She needs to be decent enough to tell him she has decided to date other people. I’ve grown sick of reading this thread because I’m tired of the “user” mentality that abounds.
Tracy 48

I agree with others here who’ve said 3 days is a little early to commit, but I can’t help but wonder how much online dating has affected Tara’s decision to explore her options. There was a recent study that indicated online daters were noncommittal because they believe they have an endless supply of options, so they never make a decision.
Ruby 49

EMK’s advice here seems to contradict all the other dating advice i read, which encourages women to keep their options open in the early months of dating. This isn’t with the intent of stringing anyone along; it is about not becoming too attached to someone you barely know too soon. After 3 dates, Ted could seem like a really nice guy, but there is still a chance that deal-breaker issues could arise, or
Tara could met someone with whom she is more compatible. I’m not getting why she hid her profile so soon anyway. Was it just because Ted did it first?
Sherel 50

Margo After three dates she owes him nothing but be a good date. If he ask her about dating other people, she should tell him the truth. Its not a user mentality at all. So many women are so unhappy in love because they fall immediately for a guy that treats them well on a few dates. WTH!!!!!! Everyone has to look out for themselves and at 3 dates everyone is an option. This goes for the guy as well!!!
Katarina Phang 51

Margo, they just started to date and there is no promise or talk of anything so non-exclusivity is ASSUMED at this point and UNTIL it is discussed and agreed upon. They both are adults and are responsible for their own feelings, choices and decisions.

I forgot to mention three dates are indeed NOTHING. There is no way you can be sure or know someone within that time frame.

I’ve been dating an 8-years younger full time student the last 2 months (we see each other twice a week on average) and still I don’t feel I know this man entirely and am still observing and processing things that I see. So we haven’t even discussed exclusivity yet, apart from that we agree at this point we will have fun when we are together and have our own lives when we are not and not getting nosy about what each other is doing when we are not together.

I have married before (and so has he) and I want to make sure this time around I won’t rush into anything. Though chemistry wise we are great, I have reservations as far as compatibility goes considering his current transitional stage of his life. He pretty much admits as well that he’s not ready for relationship for his preoccupation with school which I totally understand and he feels he won’t be too available time-wise for any women at this point (and the fact that he has no money).

Though we pretty much have our feelings known for each other (yes the ILY and stuff), at the end of the day timing is everything. You can’t force this. I really am on a fence, and he obviously is too for various reasons though undoubtedly the more we see each other, the more attached we will be emotionally but we will see what happens (I suspect he’ll be the one who is more attached as it takes much longer for a guy to do so -and he was cautious the first 8 weeks) and I pretty much have gone through “my peak” with him, so to speak ).
Katarina Phang 52

However, if he did ask to be exclusive with me, I’d definitely give it a serious consideration. It has to come from him though otherwise I’ll just waste my time.
Paragon 53

@ Michelle20

“Self interest is NOT being selfish.”

We all have self-interests, but where these self-interests *conflict* between individuals(which is *frequently*), they are the *definition* of selfish concerns.

Quit splitting semantical hairs.

“I wonder, how much dating has this women done in general? I’m thinking proably not much over her adult life since she’s hiring a dating coach and then at age 39?”

Does not follow.

Indeed, I think it is far more likely that an overabudance of relationship turnover in her past, has adapted her
towards starting *new* relationships, rather than maintaing existing ones.

In which case, more ‘experience’ of finding/starting new relationships is the *last* thing she needs(again, assuming a stable LTR is the goal).

@ Nadia29

“Kurt #15, there will be plenty of men who will want to date a 39 year old. You’ll see when you’re 39. Not everyone wants children.”

And how many less men do you suppose will want to commit to her, in lieu of such a bonding investment?

Sorry, but she *is* playing with fire, if a LTR is her goal.

@ MilkyMae31

“Tara seems to be self-absorbed in the decision process of picking partner rather than focusing on the building a
relationship with someone. I’m of the opinion that a relationship is a goal to work towards and not some choice you make at the end of a month long taste test. You are always going to cold feet if you think it’s either 1, 2 or what’s behind door number 3.”

Wow – someone(a woman?) actually gets ‘it’, lol.

@ Jadafisk

“Men in that age range also *tend* to have had children already if they had a strong desire for them.”

Really?

Only if they can find a willing partner(I suspect you are overestimating the ease by which males can achieve this, as a sex – especially in the prevailing mating landscape).

“The difficulty with dating at later ages is culling. A higher and higher percentage of people who are older singles are
going to be single by choice, due to chronic indecisiveness, or other personality traits that are fairly well established, difficult to modify and off-putting to many. People who are not in those categories get jaded running into folks who are and get less motivated to put themselves out there, in an increasingly fragmented social scene where people have to make an effort to find other singles over thirtysomething.”

Absolutely – past behavior is a predictor of future behavior, and the longer someone remains single, the more maladapted they be assumed to be, with respect to certain long-term interactions.

@ Androgynous42

“I respectfully disagree with Evan. This is NOT a “people” thing but a gender thing. Men don’t keep women around as
“options”. They keep women around as booty calls – women they find attractive enough to want to sleep with, but not have long term meaningful relationships with. Thankfully they are not the majority of men, though a significant minority. Women, on the other hand, are opposite. They keep men around as truly “options”. Men they think they could have meaningful relationships with, but whom they are not madly deeply crazily attracted to, physically and sexually. They want to have these men to fall back upon should things not work out (which they never usually do) with their hotter, more exciting prospects. Unlike player men, there are many many many women out there who are like this. This is not to say they are bad women, but they just normal women exhibiting normal self interested behavior.”

Besides some early hair splitting, very astute observation.

@ Helene 43

” Her other option is: she could date him exclusively for long enough to actually DECIDE if she wants to be in a long term
relationship with him or not.”

“dating is a bonding process, and other suitors disrupt the bonding process.”

If a LTR is the goal, then that is very true.

I would like to add that LTRs are *always* going to be about ‘settling’, rather than dreaming of greener grass just over the horizon(which is always going to be there, no matter how far you pursue it).

And the single biggest difference between happily paired individuals, and those toxic singles rotting away in dating limbo, is that the former have learned to stop chasing day-dreams and invest in a sure(r) thing.

I don’t think Evan is faulting Tara for being uncertain, but rather for jeopardizing a good prospect, in favor of chasing rainbows – which is an absolutely justified criticism considering her age(which is an indisputable liability).
Selena 54

@Helelne re: #43

I find your post the most sensible one on this thread thus far.

If Tara truly cares for Ted…why not just date him for another few weeks and see if stronger feelings develop? If they don’t, she can end it with a clear conscience, knowing she gave it a fair chance, and didn’t string him along so she could see what else was out there.

Focusing on getting to know one person at a time is not making a “commitment” to them – it’s merely choosing to get to know them without dividing one’s time and energy amongst a stable of others.
Evan Marc Katz 55

@Ruby – No contradiction. The point of the post was twofold. And it’s summed up at the end of the piece:

First, realize that men and women are no different. And although it’s easy to berate men for being selfish, for using you, for not telling you their true intentions, the real truth is: this isn’t a man thing, it’s a people thing.

The second takeaway I’d like you to have is to internalize the idea that the guy who is keeping you at bay for more than 6-8 weeks is probably never going to step up to the plate to be your boyfriend.

So any talk on these boards about how men are still worse misses the point. Any talk about how I think that a couple should “just know” in 3 dates misses the point.

Tara has every right to take her time before committing to Ted. But a) she can’t be upset when a man takes his time when she’s sure and b) since she really is ambivalent about him and already did NOT see him as boyfriend material, she should simply let him go, instead of keeping him around as a safety school…which is what so many men do to women.
Ruby 56

EMK #55

Okay. But the fact that Tara definitely did NOT see him as boyfriend material wasn’t clear in the original piece; it sounded more like she wasn’t sure yet. And I do think you need more than 3 dates to know if someone does have long-term potential.
Bill 57

Heather

But still, the thought ran through my head: “Well, maybe if guys experienced this, maybe they wouldn’t treat a woman like that, in the future, because they know how it hurts.”

You have probably not figure out this but generally there are two categories of men. Ones who will do this and ones that will not. If you hurt a man who does not do this this will lead him to become that man you have squandered your time away.

The men who do treat women the way they desire they will learn to avoid all women with these kinds of issues “unrealistic expectations”. It seems that women are way attracted to men with unrealistic expectations than men are.

The ones that does do this often he is often with many women that you don’t even register if you did lead him on.

At the end of the day. I have seen so many happy couples and so many unhappy couples. If you have been hurt many many times I would look at the kind of person you have been picking. Generally there is always a pattern.
Catharine 58

Great advice! I wish that I had had this info several years ago. Off topic, I would have never guessed you went to Duke. I’m a tarheel by birth, but a blue devil by choice.
Jadafisk 59

Paragon, I told you that the vast majority of middle-aged men, as they exist today – as opposed to the surge in never married adult men that you predict will manifest in the coming generations – have been married before. There’s marriage records, there’s census forms, there’s surveys. Marriage is generally deemed the socially prescribed opportunity to have children, and due to a combination of factors, both natural and societal, people who haven’t done so already make the choice to do so or to decide not to during that time. For many people, children are the primary reason to request or pursue a marriage at all. Now, there will be some people who wanted children, married a partner who discovered that they were unable to bear/adopt children and then eventually divorced, but they would compose a minority. Biology still compels people to err more often on the side of having children at times in their life that they regret having done so, as opposed to regretting not having had any by the time a quarter century has passed since initial fertility.
Michelle 60

#53 “Self interest is NOT being selfish.”

We all have self-interests, but where these self-interests *conflict* between individuals(which is *frequently*), they are the *definition* of selfish concerns.

Self Interest = win/win
Selfish = win/lose

These are 2 different things, sorry you can’t see that.

“Indeed, I think it is far more likely that an overabudance of relationship turnover in her past, has adapted her…”

You have no way of knowing this. I would argue the opposite since Evan said “Tara invested a lot of money with me to ostensibly find herself a boyfriend,”

“Each time, he called her in advance, made the plans, paid for her, followed up the day after, and let her know that she was a priority in his love life. Without being over-the-top smothering, Ted made it clear that he wanted to be her boyfriend.”

This is great, and I’ve had that happen plenty of times, ultimately, they weren’t the right man for me, and that was found out at early as 6 weeks, but no longer than 6 months. All of these actions in no way means he’s a good match for her. I think she’s the smart one in taking her time, and that’s 6 weeks to 6 months in my world.
Karl R 61

Androgynous said: (#42)
“Women, on the other hand, are opposite. They keep men around as truly ‘options’. Men they think they could have meaningful relationships with, but whom they are not madly deeply crazily attracted to, physically and sexually. They want to have these men to fall back upon should things not work out (which they never usually do) with their hotter, more exciting prospects.”

Can you name three couples (whom you know) where the woman, after keeping a man around as a fallback option, eventually decided that he was the right choice for marriage?

While the motives for keeping the other person around may be different, the end result is the same. If the other person keeps looking for someone else to be their long-term boyfriend/girlfriend, they’re not going to suddenly switch to the person they see as a less-appealing option.
Daphne 62

@Michelle/60-
I understand that she wants to take her time, but in that case pulling her Match profile and not dating others for the next month or two would be the right thing to do. Dating others while she’s deciding is a slap in the face.
Paragon 63

@ Jadafisk

“Paragon, I told you that the vast majority of middle-aged men, as they exist today – as opposed to the surge in never married adult men that you predict will manifest in the coming generations – have been married before. There’s marriage records, there’s census forms, there’s surveys.”

• In 2004, there were an estimated 67.8 million
fathers and 82.8 million mothers ages 15 and over
in the United States.

• Overall, 61.7 percent of men and 70.3 percent of
women 15 years and over were parents.

– Ever-married men and women were almost equally likely to have
had children (84.4 and 86.6 percent, respectively).

– Never-married women were twice as likely as never-married men to have had a child (23.5 and 11.7 percent, respectively).

(source – census.gov)

We clearly have different standards for what constitutes a vast majority.

In any case, I maintain that your argument is overestimating the ease by which a male can successfully reproduce.

@ Michelle

“We all have self-interests, but where these self-interests *conflict* between individuals(which is *frequently*), they are the *definition* of selfish concerns.

Self Interest = win/win
Selfish = win/lose”

Actually no – where self-interests *conflict* between individuals(which, again, is *frequently* the case), it becomes a zero sum game, and thus a selfish equation.

Sorry you can’t see that.

@ Karl R

“Can you name three couples (whom you know) where the woman, after keeping a man around as a fallback option, eventually decided that he was the right choice for marriage?”

Not surprising, as I would expect that most such females rarely settle down to begin with, forever chasing their greener grass on the horizon(or riding the c. carousel, if you will).
Henriette 64

Well, has he taken down his profile? Has he explicitly asked her to “go steady?” I’m not trying to be a smart-ass but I’m genuinely curious as to why she should stop dating other people if he hasn’t actually talked to her about being exclusive and they’ve only been on 3 dates. Even if a guy seems into me, I’d never assume that he wants me to stop dating other people or that he’s not dating anyone else unless we have a conversation about it. Should Tara bring up the subject with him? Isn’t that the guy’s “job?” I thought it was her role to sit back at this point and just respond to him (eg. if he asks her out, she should go) but she needn’t cut out all other opportunities until he asks her to become exclusive and she accepts.
Androgynous 65

Hi Karl

“….If the other person keeps looking for someone else to be their long-term boyfriend/girlfriend, they’re not going to suddenly switch to the person they see as a less-appealing option”. Karl R

Actually I do know lots and lots of women who have “settled” in this fashion, including close female relatives of mine – my own mother for instance. It is my observation that women tend to go back to a less appealing option if their desire for children is strong and their biological clocks are ticking loudly. They settle on a man who is made of good husband/father material, but who don’t necessarily “light their fires”.
Men on the other hand, don’t normally go back to a less appealing option. Maybe they don’t have as much a biological drive for children, I don’t know. Maybe the “male” mentality is one of looking forward, not back. It has been my personal experience that very few men ever go back to a past relationship, even if they still love the woman in question. Maybe men don’t want to second guess themselves or question the decisions they made in leaving a relationship. Once a man makes a decision, that is it.
Jadafisk 66

Paragon – I said they’d been married before – given the *opportunity* to reproduce. Not everyone takes that opportunity, but most do. Some will choose not to. As you can see, most men who have been married have children. Most middle aged men have been married before. What do you call 84% (the percentage men who have married that have children) of 90% (the percentage of men who have married by middle age), if not a vast majority?
Bill 67

@Androgynous

It is not settling if that is the best person she can have a long term relationship and children with. It is her best option thus it should be seen as her dream man.

If people view the person that will give them what they truly desire as settling that means everything they do in life is settling. It is all in the matter of perspective.
Happy Person 68

And@65, Bill@67: If she’s 39 and not stating otherwise, she probably doesn’t care about having kids. Which is probably why she feels she can take more time. If you don’t want kids your romantic life is about something else and you can afford to wait for the right thing. It’s just that it’s not so obvious to others what that right thing might be, so you have to do more soul-searching and more communication than the folks who are doing it by the book.
Paragon 69

@ Jadafisk

“Paragon – I said they’d been married before – given the *opportunity* to reproduce. Not everyone takes that opportunity, but most do. Some will choose not to. As you can see, most men who have been married have children. Most middle aged men have been married before. What do you call 84% (the percentage men who have married that have children) of 90% (the percentage of men who have married by middle age), if not a vast majority?”

Since we are actually talking about %84 of %75, I call that a non-overwhelming majority, but perhaps we are both splitting hairs.

I just wanted to emphasize the relative difficulty successful reproduction is for most men to successfully reproduce.

@ Bill

“It is not settling if that is the best person she can have a long term relationship and children with. It is her best option thus it should be seen as her dream man.”

You’re looking at things from an overwhelmingly male perspective, I’m afraid.

For most females, it seems that anything less than tall, dark handsome, and wealthy is, indeed, ‘settling’(which, I think, is a concept that bears some reconciliation by single females in general).
Bill 70

@Paragon

If that is the case life is pretty sad.
AnnieC 71

@70

I think the people that really “settle” are usually the ones with unrealistic expecations. Plenty of people don’t feel they are settling, but rather making a choice and committing to that choice.
m 72

@64 –
Thank you, Henriette.

Interesting to see that no one, and I mean no one, seems to have an answer to your questions, which are all, imo, right to the point.

(Speaking of having cake and eating it, who’s that new guy commenter that copped my initial and is just using it capitalized? )
Paragon 73

@ AnnieC

“I think the people that really “settle” are usually the ones with unrealistic expecations.”

How so?

Settling implies making a conclusive decision – how is that *more* likely to imply unrealistic expectations(in fact, its suggests the opposite).

“Plenty of people don’t feel they are settling, but rather making a choice and committing to that choice.”

Non sequitur – that is *precisely* what ‘settling’ implies.

You are apparently confused…

@ 72

“Interesting to see that no one, and I mean no one, seems to have an answer to your questions”

That is because, these are questions that only the OP can reasonably answer.
Happy Person 74

Mmmm. Cake.
susan 75

yep i’m listening. this week (week 12) i sent the ”i’m not getting my needs met here” letter as per Evans blog on commitment. hurting hurting. but i know it’s the right thing. As far as i’m concerned 3 months is plenty of time to decide if you want someone or not.
Evan Marc Katz 76

Sorry, Susan. It’s probably for the best. One question: you wrote him a letter? You’ve been seeing him for three months and you couldn’t do it in person? Or on the phone? I just believe that nuanced conversations shouldn’t take place by post. People should have a chance to see your face, watch your body language and respond in the moment.
susan 77

Yes I wrote a letter. not by choice. I asked him to meet me and he had ”other commitments” which kind of summed things up how they have been really. his preferred method of noninperson communication was Facebook chat. I’d had enough of that.
Writing a letter gave me an opportunity to really think about what I wanted to say and also be scrupulously honest and candid about how i was feeling.
I have followed the advice before and the last man (two months of dating, wouldn’t be seen with me in public, wouldn’t talk on phone) also got a letter – for much same reasons.
I completely agree all should be done in person – but that only works if the person actually wants to see you in the first place. And I’d suggest that if they did you wouldn’t be in the position of feeling the need to write the letter…
this appears to be a common phenomenon in my part of the world at least – the man who loves a/secrets, b/social network conversations and c/likes to keep women in the ”friendzone/just in case space”