Does Acting Like A Man Mean Acting Like A Jackass?
A friend on Facebook sent me a link to this notorious OkCupid profile. It is, to say the least, a good read about a woman who is burned out on online dating and now just sleeps with men for fun.
A brief snippet:
“The suggestion that I’m “acting like a man” is also based on the assumption that you can simply interchange male and female behavior in the first place. Doing so ignores the fact that male and female sexuality are regulated very differently in our culture. Women aren’t supposed to seek out and enjoy sex with multiple partners. They’re supposed to be selective with their mates. They’re supposed to barter sex for emotional security, romantic love, and domesticity. Men are supposed to avoid this trap at all costs. According to this logic, I can never act “like a man” because we already have a term for a woman who acts like I do: slut.
I wonder, then, if calling my slutty behavior “acting like a man” reflects a desire to regulate my sexuality. The question implies that I should stop what I’m doing because I’m guilty of transgression.
It also assumes that “acting like a man” means acting like a jackass, which is profoundly anti-man. I don’t think man should = jackass. I don’t think one gender has cornered the market on bad behavior. I do think men have cornered the market on this particular type of bad behavior.
I’d like to consign the phrase “acting like a man” to the dustbin of pre-feminist history. Instead, I’d like to see more people act as ethically as this slut tries to do. I’d like the world to decide that the only person who needs to regulate slutty behavior is the slut him- or herself.
And if I find that man who really acts like a slut in the best possible way, maybe I’ll whisper sweet truths into his ear, and maybe I’ll sleep over, and maybe I’ll let myself imagine romantic love and emotional security, and maybe I’ll let him know there can be more, and maybe I’ll invite him to join me in making it up as we go along.
And then I’ll wrap one long leg around his waist and press my other calf against his shoulder and beg him to fuck me into sweetness and delight.”
I couldn’t disagree with most of what she wrote in her massive diatribe. I think what gets lost here are two things:
1) Giving up on men, dating, and the possibility of love pretty much seals her fate. Angry Jane Doe will continue to sleep with men for pleasure and continue to keep her heart closed to true love. To me, that’s sad.
2) There are millions of men who are just as frustrated with dating as any single woman. I should know. I was one of them. 300 dates over 10 years and the two “best” women I’d ever found both dumped me? This is an underreported story – that women hurt men at an equal rate as men hurt women.
So read the piece and let me know your reaction. It may start off, “You go, girl!” but I think you’ll agree that this manifesto is a catharsis that actually heals nothing.
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63 Comments »Filed Under Sex
AKM 1
I personally find that very sad and cynical, and I could never do it. (When women can do this, I call it “pulling a Samantha” and I figure they just don’t oxytocin-bond like most women do, myself included.) But hey, if she can do it and she’s actually happy, to each her own.
I don’t think she’s that happy, though. :-/
Lily 2
Oh dear…i was so exahusted half way through i didnt finish reading. The anger was just too much. i have more pleasant things to do on a Saturday morning like, drink coffee and read something uplifting. i knowing i am a great person and there are plenty of great male persons out there too. It’s not to say she doesnt have valid feelings…
starthrower68 3
I agree Evan. As someone who has had to fight against cynicism and purpose to assume the risk, this mindset can backfire terribly. She’ll encounter a good man whom she will fall for but will not return her feeling because he doesn’t want to deal with someone who’s close off her heart. I’ve had to eat my words lately. Amazing things can happen when you open your heart – here’s your moment Evan – I’m eating crow! Someone that may prove to be special has come along.
Erika 4
I couldn’t finish her profile. It’s sad and repetitive. She’s clearly very clever and a great writer. I wish her luck. I hope she finds what she’s looking for.
To me it all comes down to expectations. Expectations are what bring us disappointment. When I was online dating, my only expectation was that when I met someone, I would have a pleasant evening. No more, no less. Of course it’s hard not to get your hopes up, and it hurts to be rejected, but I always reminded myself of two things:
1) They don’t really know me, so they aren’t rejecting me, personally. They have an idea in their head of what they want, and I do not match their idea. It doesn’t make me flawed, it just means that I’m not the right fit for them.
2) I want someone who wants me back. I don’t waste my time with men who don’t want me. I tell this to all my single friends: find someone who wants YOU! They are out there. Do not try to mold yourself into the person they want. You’ll always feel like you’re hiding your true self, and that never leads to happiness or intimacy.
It’s tough, I admit. The rudeness. The rejection. I kept hope alive by reveling in those fleeting flirtations–even if they didn’t pan out. To me they meant that if I could feel that way once, I could feel that way again. My heart was still open.
I’m one of the lucky ones. I met a great man a month after I signed up on OkCupid, and we moved in together almost a year later. It’s been two years and we’re happy as ever.
But you can’t find love if you’re not open to it.
Sam 5
Haven’t finished reading all, but almost 3 fourths, and I get a feeling that what AngryJaneDoe does is she has a standard of how she behaves, which is “working out the logistics, admitting to yourself what you’re doing”, and then tell the other person everything, every detail up front, and if anybody doesn’t behave in such way, they will be judged or criticized.
This might be an adult way of dating, might even be good, but it doesn’t mean that everybody is obligated to act like this.
There’re people who don’t want to exhaust themselves in giving away that much information to every single person they date;
there’re people who don’t like to bear that much at the receiving end;
and some people probably don’t even like to figure out what they are doing.
Not saying she’s wrong, I agree some of what she said, just that holding a “golden rule” and bashing men who don’t behave accordingly is not going to do much in the long run.
Erinlee 6
Wow that chick is messed up. How does she have it turned around in her twisted little head that all men are evil? And on top of it, what about the girls? Like we never mess up, or cause anyone any pain. I wanted to quit reading but was so intrigued I just couldn’t, I don’t understand how someone can have that much hate in their heart. Very sad.
Terri 7
For those women who want to behave like a “slut”, it is best NOT to expect the man/men they sleep with to value them for a long-term relationship. For casual sex, there are a number of dating sites that cater to this type of interaction.
Most men will say they believe that women are entitled to indulge in sex as freely as men. However, how many of these men will actually get serious with this type of woman???
Back in the days, there were specific RULES for both sexes. For those who broke the rules, there were consequences in most instances. Then came the “Sexual Revolution” which supposedly granted women the same freedom as men. IMO, what women gained from this change was the freedom to be rejected.
Again, IMO, deep down in our emotional private place, nothing has changed. Men still want to marry women who have not slept around. Read “The Rules”. There were relationship games then and there are relationship games now.
It is not “politically correct” today to believe in old-fashioned morality. Lire and relationships were so much simpler then. I am prepared to get a lot of criticism about this. However, I would not want to be young and dating in 2011.
There are too many choices now, too few boundaries. Everything goes! Yet there is sooo much confusion and too much chaos. If Life had a Reset button, like my computer, I would push it in a heartbeat!
Lisa 8
I feel so sad for this woman. Clearly, she has anger issues when started long before she started dating. She would be wise to seek therapy to find out the real reason for all her anger.
kdr 9
I read this “manifesta” and thought to myself “If anyone actually believes this woman is closed off to finding true love and given up on men, they don’t know women as much as they think they do.
“And if I find that man who really acts like a slut in the best possible way, maybe I’ll whisper sweet truths into his ear, and maybe I’ll sleep over, and maybe I’ll let myself imagine romantic love and emotional security, and maybe I’ll let him know there can be more, and maybe I’ll invite him to join me in making it up as we go along.”
To me, she is holding a gigantic sign challenging all men . . . come and overtake me. Break me down . . . show me you’re worthy of me.
I make no comment on the validity or effectiveness or honesty of what she’s doing. It’s just obvious to me that she’s doing it.
Helene 10
I didn’t actually get that she is angry or that she is down on men, as reflected in this comment:
“It also assumes that “acting like a man” means acting like a jackass, which is profoundly anti-man. I don’t think man should = jackass.”
My take is that she likes to have casual sex and she is, in her words, ethical about how she does it and when she finds a man who approaches sex in relationship like she does, they may become a couple and have a life together – taken from this paragraph:
And if I find that man who really acts like a slut in the best possible way, maybe I’ll whisper sweet truths into his ear, and maybe I’ll sleep over, and maybe I’ll let myself imagine romantic love and emotional security, and maybe I’ll let him know there can be more, and maybe I’ll invite him to join me in making it up as we go along.
My final take away from her profile and your post is that she is trying to be creative and philosophical in her post and instead, is confusing.
my 2 cents
Jadafisk 11
Terri -
Women have always experienced rejection, in passive (no one expresses interest in a relationship) and active (“it’s nice that you feel that way about me, but no thanks”) forms. The ratios of one to the other may change, but that’s about it. Also, according to traditional precepts, ideals and definitions, almost all modern women have ”slept around,” and men have changed their definition of such accordingly as to continue to find the majority of women wholly acceptable for dating and marriage. If the median number of sexual partners for an adult woman becomes 20, “slut” will be redefined as 50+ partners. It’s amorphous and context-dependent like that. In addition to that, most marriage-minded men now see virginity that a woman intends to maintain until marriage as a total disqualification for consideration – the complete opposite of what you contend.
Both of the Rules authors are now divorced, BTW.
Annie 12
I like her!! Lol. She’s a great writer.
She actually sounds to be as though in the past, she has let men treat her badly, and she is only now finally starting to stand up for herself. Hopefully she’ll work through this, and come out the other end happier.
Right now though, she’s pretty angry. I found some of her comments fairly humerous too…lol!!
jack 13
I would like to introduce the female readers to an interesting concept called “apex fallacy”.
Go read a bunch of articles about the hookup culture in colleges, and you will find that most of them will tell you a story about how “boys” control everything. The girls have to put out to receive any attention, and the boys refuse to commit at all, insisting on ‘friends with benefits’ arrangements.
This is only true if by “boys” you mean the most popular and in-demand 15-20% percent of men.
For every man who is drowning in options, there are probably five that are working overtime just to get girls to talk to them. This is why there is confusion about the slut-stud issue.
Sleeping around does not make you a stud. Being an in-demand male makes it possible to sleep around.
The large majority of men have very little power in the sexual marketplace, and the only reason women see themselves as the weaker party is that they only are noticing the men with the most social power.
Look at the unofficial harem that Tiger Woods was running. Over a dozen. Those were women that were not available for a monogamous relationship with other men. Look at the harems that star athletes at colleges have available to them. At Duke, they call them “LaCrosstitutes”.
To take one more tack on the original question, let’s consider an average guy at some university, and an average girl.
Suppose they take one month and have a contest to see how many times they can have sex. If they are both at the same level, the girl will win every time. An average looking girl could have a new sex partner every day for a whole month just by showing up at a college bar and signaling her willingness.
For a guy to rack that kind of number, he would have to pay for it.
Or…. he would have to be much more high-status than the girl. A top-level star athlete could probably match an average girl for partner count.
So what does this have to do with the original question?
A lot. The typical, average girl could easily rack up a number far beyond her average male peers. She could probably even clock the numbers as fast as a reasonably popular athlete. Therefore, men tend to view high partner count as a sign of poor self-control and thrill-seeking. Neither of which is very tempting when it comes to a long term relationship.
Women, however, are often both fascinated and disgusted by high-number men.
Remember, they would not be ‘studs’ without women giving it up for them. The tired old notion that men are high-fiving each other over getting laid is a myth, myth, myth.
You can’t be a “stud” without the agreement of the women who provide the high partner count. It is NOT THE MEN that confer the title of “stud” on these womanizers – it is the WOMEN who do that.
Apex fallacy in action.
Flower White 14
Blah blah blah.
Can’t believe I read the whole thing.
She is looking for a book deal.
Most likely she was victim of childhood abuse.
Sad really, the way she’s trolling there for the book deal.
Dating advice? She gave no dating advice, only an outline for her book deal!
Ruby 15
I think I agree with kdr #9.
I have to wonder if this woman isn’t gunning for a book deal. A few years ago, a guy named Tucker Max gained internet celebrity, which lead to a best-selling book, by documenting his sexual exploits on his blog.
First angryjanedoe says “I have taken down my profile, I am buying a vibrator, and I’m going to start spilling secrets”, but, with her profile still up, she proceeds to provide graphic details about her sexual exploits. She also makes sure to tell us that we can find more of her writing on her blog.
Gem 16
She experienced one too many hurts. Her once open and optimistic heart has slammed shut. The pendulum has swung waaaayyyyy to the other side. She’s hurt, angry, hardened and able to write eloquently so it appears that she’s in control now, safely living in the land of “I’ll Fuck who I want, when I want, and if I do so honestly, it’s a good thing for me and him. Aren’t I evolved and enlightened.”
Not. She’s fooling herself. This girl is way too deep and emotional to be happy with meaningless sex. She wants love. Her anger right now is being channeled at the men she has casual sex with as a statement to all men. “See, I can walk away from you the next day. See, you have no effect on me. See, you can’t hurt me because I won’t let you.”
MH 17
I’m wondering if she does find a man who wants more of a relationship, what will she do.
Jadafisk 18
“The tired old notion that men are high-fiving each other over getting laid is a myth, myth, myth.”
But… I hang around a bunch of early twenties guys of “middling/low status” and I’ve *seen* it happen. Repeatedly. Guys become legends (if they like him) and/or the frequent subjects of envious gossip (if they don’t) in homosocial groups for what they do and are rumored to have done when
1: fighting
2: having sex
BethB 19
My first reaction is such sadness, like Evan says. Just more “one-upmanship” in the dating world, as if somehow bonus points are assigned to her for “getting it right” with some particularly unpleasant “male” behavior. The only person she’s really hurting (and I agree with others that she’s acting out of anger and hurt) is herself. What is nasty and hurtful behavior in men is nasty and hurtful behavior in women–what is being lost in so much of our interactions includes just our basic humanity, not just in dating and sex, though the pressure of dating encourages a very intense expression of our fear and anxiety. I think it’s the hardest and bravest thing in the world to make yourself vulnerable in dating, but that’s also the only way to get to the true intimacy most of us yearn for. She’s just guaranteeing that she won’t get to that place any time soon. I don’t judge her for her “slutty” sexuality; I am sad that she’s crying out for what she’s ensuring she will never have.
nathan 20
Terri –
Although there are plenty of issues with the wide-openness of modern dating and relationships, I think going back to the straight-jacket of “traditional” rules and approaches isn’t the answer for many people. For some, it might be perfect. But honestly, I believe that some of the “anything goes” attitude you appear to be disappointed in is a reaction against the repressive, patriarchal structures of the past. In fact, the whole “slut/stud” double standard is coming directly from that paradigm, and I’d argue it harms both men and women, placing sexuality into a numbers game, and elevating some artificial notion of “purity” and “impurity” above all else.
I also have to laugh at the notion that relationships were so much easier in the past. That’s romantic nonsense. In my own family, I had multiple great grandparents who died young (one by suicide) and then multiple step great grandparents as a result. There are also stories of cheating, ultimatums given, spousal abuse, relationships torn apart by the death of a child – the list goes on and on. And to some degree, those same “old fashioned values” – like men are always right and authority must be deferred to them – played major roles on these situations. Had there been a bit more flexibility and sharing of power – things might have turned out differently.
The way I see it, the job of us post-sexual revolution is to take the elements from the past that serve us and blend them with the freedoms and choices of today which also serve us. And learn to leave the rest behind. Stepping back from the ledge of “anything goes” is very smart, but if it’s just a retreat into some idealistic story about the past, I highly doubt that happiness will follow.
Christie Hartman 21
OK, so I managed to read that entire thing. I’m not a fan of rambling diatribes, but I suffered through it anyway, and here is what it said to me:
This wasn’t about men as studs and women as sluts. It’s not even about sex. It’s about a woman’s frustration with the differences between men and women, and the pain it has brought her. I could identify with some of her frustrations, as could many women. But my view toward her “manifesta” is the same as my view toward men who gripe about their frustrations with women, and that is: you can deal with the rigors of dating by giving up and complaining, or you can dust yourself off, learn something new, and try again.
Long speeches like this one, whether coming from a female or male, can be summed up into 3 words: I got hurt.
Panda 22
Ok so ya, she comes across as bitter and jaded in her profile on some things, but how sick am I that on some of her points I actually agreed?? Guys not admitting they are on these sites just for casual sex but make glimmers of promises that they may be interested in something more comes to mind as an example. I must be that bitter and jaded too.
AKM 23
(This may be apropos of nothing, but both of The Rules authors are NOT divorced. Sherrie is still married and although Ellen divorced, she remarried and apparently is very happy.)
Karl R 24
TL;DR
I’m not sure what she expects her pity party to accomplish.
I am sure that I don’t want to attend it.
Terri asked: (#7)
“Most men will say they believe that women are entitled to indulge in sex as freely as men. However, how many of these men will actually get serious with this type of woman???”
I have.
My first serious girlfriend had around 5 times as many partners as I did.
Terri asked: (#7)
“Men still want to marry women who have not slept around.”
I don’t know how many sex partners my fiancée had, nor do I care.
If a man has slept around, but excludes any woman who has done the same, he is a hypocrite. Why would you want to marry him?
starthrower68 said: (#3)
“I’ve had to eat my words lately.”
I hope things continue to go well.
Saint stephen 25
This is a sad situation i must admit, but the kind of life she leads now just expunges every hope or possibility of meeting her soul-mate and life partner.
Who wants a lady who only indulges in sex for fun?? Who wants a lady who is ready to sleep with every tom dick and harry??
as long as she keeps retaining such mentality she will only view men as sex objects. which will be very detrimental to her chances of finding Mr. Right.
When a guy is able to attract and F**ks any girl he wants he is hailed by his peers and regarded as a master player, but when a lady does the same, she is seen or regarded as a bitch, slut, hole etc.
Sure this is no rocket science and can be likened to a key, thus when it is able to open any (or every) door is regarded as a Master-key, but when a door can be opened by every or any key then it is as good as worthless.
Is will be very difficult for gender equality to influence gender stereotyping as it has been engrained into humans whether neanderthal or evolved.
Nicole 26
I actually believe she is a feminist. If she is not looking for a relationship right now or never, it’s her own right. I know that being disrespected by men in the past might make you bitter, but I also know that it sometimes is an emotion one has to feel in order to grow and change. I don’t know if this is something she will overcome later on, but I do respect her position and her right to live life as she thinks is better for her.
On another note, happiness does not always mean long term relationship or love till death do us apart.
morgan 27
I’m more with Annie @12.
I don’t find this sad. She’s just fed up and has found an audience to vent with.
I probably felt pretty similar to her at that age. I had the rampant libido that skyrocketed from 35 (although has settled down again now) and was completely disenchanted with men. However my way of coping is withdrawal – so for me it was long periods of avoiding men puncuated by the occasional drunken one night stand when the ‘red haze’ took control.
This eventually passed and I reckon it will for her too. The anger will spend itself and she’ll rediscover her marshmallow centre that wants love.
Gem 28
It’s her “right” to fuck who she wants, but I don’t know what that has to do with feminism.
I don’t believe in the words, “slut,” or “stud.” Her manifesto is dripping with anger, passion, hurt, longing, fear, and the need to *prove* she’s above it all, and NOT feeling these things (well, she admits to being pissed).
She’s driven now to fuck random guys for a meaningless physical response as a direct result of the above emotions. Yes, it’s her “right” but I don’t think it’s emotionally healthy, or productive for what she really wants (Love). And doing anything from a place of anger, fear, resentment is not empowering to any woman.
Karl R 29
Panda said: (#22)
“Guys not admitting they are on these sites just for casual sex but make glimmers of promises that they may be interested in something more comes to mind as an example.”
I suspect you’re talking about a few concrete examples, not some theoretical men who you may or may not encounter.
I did online dating for several years. I am now engaged (though I met my fiancée offline). While none of the women I men online resulted in a long-term relationship, that was my goal.
It can take months to determine whether someone is a good long-term partner. If I had sex with a woman while still making up my mind, then later decided that we were a poor match, did I make “glimmers of promises” that I was interested in something more? If I had sex with a woman (because I knew I wanted to have sex with her), then later determined that I didn’t want a long-term relationship with her, does that mean I was online “just for casual sex”?
I don’t believe it’s accurate to assume those men have poor motives. And I don’t think it improves my attitude toward dating to assume that others have poor motives.
Goldie 30
I am one of those sick freaks that read the whole thing and enjoyed it
nicely written!
@Christie #21, to me it didn’t seem to be about the differences between men and women, but rather, about the differences between the players and users (of both genders) and nice, decent people (of both genders). Apparently, angryjanedoe is trying to set an example for the players by letting her partners down gently, and not stringing them along. I wonder, though, if it actually works; that is, if she has ever had a chance to try her technique on an actual player. My guess is no. A real player will be long gone by the time she gets to type her farewell email or text or whatever. So, she’s preaching to the choir, i.e, nice decent guys. But what’s the point in that? they don’t need her message, they already are nice and decent.
@#25: “Who wants a lady who is ready to sleep with every tom dick and harry??”
Um, she never said that. In fact, she stated the opposite of that – that she’s pretty selective in that regard, in her own ways of course.
Shouraku 31
I agree with Christie’s statement (#21):
“Long speeches like this one, whether coming from a female or male, can be summed up into 3 words: I got hurt.”
Really, that womans manifesto looks remarkably like a grownup version of a teen diary entry about how her parents did not love/nuture/respect/attend her so she is going to act out in rebellion.
Please do not misconstrue my comment as being condescending. It is natural for people to “act out” when they feel that they are being mistreated. I respect that she has been hurt in past relationships and feels the need to make a serious change in response, however, I believe that it would be valuable for her to recognize that her actions may stem from anger and hurt that she is attempting to rationalize, as opposed to a logical and healthy decision. There are health ways to “act out” if you choose to look for them.
@ Jack (#13):
Very interesting comment, thank you for that. Presented an angle that I had not considered.
Goldie 32
@Karl #29, not everyone we meet online is like you. There’s some pretty inhumane, illogical stuff going on out there.
If you communicate to the woman, after having sex with her, that you’ve decided the two of you will be a poor match, no one will blame you, as it happens to all of us. If you have sex with her and she never hears back from you again, and all her attempts at contact go unanswered… that’s a different beast. If you have sex with a woman while making up your mind, she won’t blame you. If you schedule two women for the same night, figuring that at least one will stick around and the other one you can call back for sex in a couple of days, then you won’t strike me as someone earnestly looking for long-term. Etc etc… I’m sure Panda has more stories than I do. I’m still fairly new to the whole dating game (or should I say UFC championship).
This is actually what angryjanedoe is advocating – be honest, be upfront, be consistent; don’t say one thing, do another, and mean something completely different; don’t do to others what you wouldn’t want done to you. One point that I agree with you completely on is that most men already do all those things. But some don’t. And we’ve got to be vigilant. We can’t go around assuming the best of any guy, no matter how he acts. I’m pretty sure that’s what Evan has always been telling us around here – not to tolerate anyone who treats you badly. It’s just that some of those guys are such skilled con artists, it takes a while to realize that we are actually being mistreated.
Helen 33
About that whole blog post, I just felt: Meh. Too much incoherent rambling. It wasn’t particularly angry, it wasn’t particularly feminist, it wasn’t much of anything.
The main impression I got from it was that here is a woman who has absolutely no idea what she wants out of life. She needs to figure that out first, by herself, and not hurt anyone else while figuring it out. Then she needs to work for what she wants, and can enlist others NICELY in helping her reach her goals. But she’s not getting anywhere continuing in the route she’s currently on.
Sharon 34
@ Saint Stephan
Yes because women purpose in life is to wait at home thwart all entry until the right key comes along. Hey we can even through up a dead bolt and go back to be locked down in chastity belts!
Michael 35
I don’t think any of us have much of a right to judge this one. So the woman has rules and standards. Just because people like Terri seem to think that gender rules ought to apply doesn’t mean we ought to impose our own values on her.
I think that Evan’s article says more about him and his readers than it does about the woman he decided to write about.
Ruby 36
Besides the whole book deal thing, I also think she sounds awfully confused and depressed (underneath all the anger). She’s giving up men and buying a vibrator, no, she’s going to have sex with no commitment, but if someone great came along, hmmm…, but she will only sleep with men who “deserve” it, as if it is some kind of charity…She describes a man lying to her about being over his girlfriend, but then says he has “integrity”, and has sex with him. She hates being objectified, but sets herself up for exactly that. And guess what? The men she sleeps with continue to use her and act like dicks, so what’s the point?
Goldie 37
@ Ruby #36:
“but she will only sleep with men who “deserve” it, as if it is some kind of charity…”
Well, don’t we all? LOL
Jadafisk 38
“Who wants a lady who only indulges in sex for fun??”
Lots of people, including many husbands and every single man on earth who doesn’t want any (or any more) children. Over the age of about 38, that mentality’s necessary for sex to continue occurring regularly.
jack 39
Here’s the problem:
Women can get sex with men who are much more desirable than the men who are willing to commit to them, on average. This is because men are less selective when it comes to short-term sexual relationships.
Women who we might consider sluts, are actually often MORE choosy about who they sleep with. Consider Duke Univ. Sensation Karen Owen. She slept with top-level athletes, none of whom were willing to date her. But she got them in the sack.
This is, again, because men will go two or three notches down to get sex. The male sex drive is high enough to cause men to do this. Women may like sex just as much as men, but they are typically more selective.
It is a myth that sluts will “sleep with anyone”. Slutty girls usually have a “type”: Rocker, biker, investment banker, athlete, whatever. Are there exceptions to this? Yes, but they are not the rule.
High-number girls have much more going on than just “liking sex”. The fact is that any girl could rack up a partner count of 30 in the first year of college. Most men cannot do that.
Therefore, one should care if they are in a serious relationship with a high-number girl. If she has a high number of failed relationships, then she is a bad chooser of men. Or she bores easily.
If she has a high number because she “likes sex”, then she is a sexual thrill-seeker with poor impulse control. Either way, this is not marriage territory for me.
Remaining single is a far better option.
Saint stephen 40
@Jack
In as much as i agree with every bit of word you said i have to disagree on that part that a girl can rack up more sexual partners than a guy
Reason- if a girl and guy is both average looking then there is every proclivity the guy would rack up more sexual partners than the girl, because as guy he’s initiates the dates and if he’s so desperate he would invest all his time and effort into it and would be able find a lot of sexual rackets, guys can date up, down, tall, short. good looking and ugly so has a lot of options, but most girls would hesitate dating out of their league and are dependent on guys initiating the moves.
Jadafisk 41
I want to know: How could you tell a “high number” woman from one who’s just average, unless she said so, is renowned for it locally, or made a career out if it?
Goldie 42
Jack, I really really like the first half of your comment! (#39) I find this is actually very true that, when choosing a FWB or an ONS (tho I wouldn’t know about the latter, just my guess), women are extremely selective on the external factors, such as looks, age, physical form… and yes we can get away with it.
Now if every 50-year old, nerdy, balding guy with a potbelly who thinks he and I should be FWBs just because we’re on good friendly terms, we click intellectually, and he likes me but wants to play around and make up for lost years rather than commit, could read this comment of yours… that would save me a lot of explaining. This especially goes for the ones that say they just want casual, but we’ve got to be exclusive, as “because of my weight problems, and my blood pressure problems, and my drinking problems, I can’t wear condoms” what on earth are these people smoking??? Any time I’ve tried to explain why it wouldn’t work, I ended up with hurt feelings and terminated friendships… why, why??
But your conclusion about a high-number girl, I do not like. And I am not even one, nor am I likely to become one at my ripe old age. You know why there are more “high-number” people out there now than there were 20, 30, 40 etc years ago? Because people used to marry their high-school sweethearts and, even in the worst-case scenario, stay married to them till the kids were out of college. The boldest ones would have an affair or two on the side, but for the most part, people would come out of their divorce at 45 or 50 with only one or two sexual partners under their belt. This is the story I hear often from my generation or people ten years older. This is not the case anymore. No one’s in a hurry to get married at 20. And this is a good thing! The downside (?) is that people go through more relationships and more experimenting in their lives. To me, also sounds like a good thing – they take the time to figure out what they do and do not want, rather than find out the hard way by marrying a random person then realizing that they made a mistake – like our generation did. So I just don’t understand this whole number theory of yours. To me, it seems irrelevant to what we’re doing here, i.e. looking for the right person.
What’s your number, anyway?
Ruby 43
Goldie #37
I’m all for angryjanedoe being able to get her rocks off as she so chooses. The character of Samantha on Sex in the City, although a complete fantasy, had fun doing just that. I just wonder why angryjanedoe still seems so unhappy. After all, she does describe her single life as “awful”, and claims that the callousness of men “pushed (her) into this choice”. If she’s trying claim the traditionally male territory of casual sex as equally a woman’s privilege, and seems confident that it can be done, why isn’t she happier about it?
Goldie 44
Ruby #43, I just pointed out that we all “only have sex with the ones that deserve it”, so I see nothing weird about the fact that Jane does the same. She never said anything to convince the reader otherwise.
She sounded pretty content to me. Yah she swears a lot, but so do I and I’m pretty happy on any given day. Maybe I should re-read the whole thing…
I didn’t catch it that she’s unhappy or depressed or any of the other things listed in this thread. I still have traces of my childhood Aspergers. So, I have a hard time reading people’s emotions from their online dating profiles
jack 45
Goldie:
You make a good case for your view, but I believe that ultimately, this type of cultural activity will be unsustainable. Already, we are seeing the beginnings of this. Look at the UK to see what happens when this behavioral breakdown occurs.
My number – hmm – I would tell you, but it is an irrational number (like pi), which means it can only be expressed with an infinite number of digits after the decimal point. Regrettably, there is not enough space to post it here.
St Stephen-
You point is valid if you are talking about what MIGHT happen. However, women (especially early 20s) have ON AVERAGE, far more short-term options than men do ON AVERAGE.
Whether or not she CHOOSES to EXERCISE those options is a different point than the one you made. I’m looking for one who has been very careful with how she uses her options.
Ellen 46
“What is nasty and hurtful behavior in men is nasty and hurtful behavior in women–what is being lost in so much of our interactions includes just our basic humanity, not just in dating and sex, though the pressure of dating encourages a very intense expression of our fear and anxiety.”
Forgot who said the above but THAT’S what I find so disturbing with online dating.
The sense that it’s ok somehow to be nasty and hurtful ’cause there’s another “one” just around the corner, a click away.
The ego rules and people are sooooo afraid of being hurt further they will treat others like crap. Read on gentle readers………
Goldie also wrote: “And we’ve got to be vigilant. We can’t go around assuming the best of any guy, no matter how he acts. I’m pretty sure that’s what Evan has always been telling us around here – not to tolerate anyone who treats you badly. It’s just that some of those guys are such skilled con artists, it takes a while to realize that we are actually being mistreated.”
What Goldie writes has been much of my experience in a nutshell (with my online TRUE relationships anyway- the ones that have lasted more than a month. Longest a year; most average in the 3-4 month range). I’ve come up against the best- 4 or 5 times now!!! in 2+ years of online dating. And it took me a while- too long- to get at their real motives. Maybe women act that way too, but women aren’t as motivated by sex as men…..
It took me too long to get at what was going on. And I don’t think I lack street smarts. My intuition and judge of character is second to none. Twice the guy told me after 3 months or so! that he, basically, was (take your pick):
* fu*ked up emotionally (anxiety to the point where he couldn’t sleep, etc.),
* or was looking for a sugar moma,
*and/or took drugs, serious drugs like heroin in the past,
*and/or was into rough sex/threesomes.
Waited to tell me this approx. THREE months in!! Sprung it on me AFTER I came to care for them a little or a lot. So they knew what they were doing. The dishonesty, fear, manipulation took my breath away.
Fast forward to August, 2011: I thought I had found a good guy recently. We dated nearly every week for three months (despite a slight long distance relationship. 1 hr., 10 minute ride…). A week ago Monday he told me he was uncomfortable with the relationship because I wanted something steady. That’s it. Never told him I loved him, never talked about a future for us (or very, very little. Mentioned travelling with him ONCE). Went around, for all intents and purposes, with a muzzle on my mouth folks.
Careful not to text/email too often. Let him decide when to meet. Noticed after a while he didn’t seem to care about my needs as to scheduling, but I have found that with EVERY man I’ve dated (I seem to attract alpha control freaks apparently) so it didn’t send off an alarm in my head.
My crime? Asking him to respond to a text – ONE TEXT- about when to meet!!! Texted in the nicest way possible. Got nothing…. So decided to press the issue and called him. He was home but didn’t pick up. (Only 2nd time I think I ever called him in three months!!!). So at 3 in the morning I texted him that I couldn’t date a man who wouldn’t take my calls…
The next day he de-friended me on Facebook. What an ass/immature jerk! So I unleashed on him quite a few personal texts liberally using the f word. Felt good.
In short he WAY overreacted out of fear and anxiety. See start of post.
I walked on eggshells with this man, I felt his small l love for me many times (that was okay apparently), our chemistry was intense, we enjoyed each other, but in the end he could tell I wouldn’t let him manipulate me anymore so I was jettisoned.
His manipulation of me was slow, it was subtle imo. I played by Evan’s rules to the nth degree, but in the end this man had no love- no true self respect and certainly none for me even as a child of God only. Fear = no love. Period. My motto (or one of them).
Three days later I get an email saying his shrink that week said he was “into unhealthy relationships”. I emailed back we weren’t unhealthy per se but his treatment of me was. Called me “an amazing woman” that any man would love to just get a peck on the cheek from even……nice words, but just words. Said us parting was probably for the best, that I really ended it, not him.
In the end he was an emotional coward. I dispute he wasn’t into me. But my mistake was dating him at all. He did tell me early on he only wanted to casually date, but our chemistry was such I couldn’t walk away. I also knew he was career transitional and accepted that. Knew he might move out of state before Xmas even…. I probably settled also ’cause I was SOOOOO burned out by online dating for two years also.
My inclination now is NOT to sleep around like the gal’s manifesto, but to wait til near metaphysical certainty that the guy has committed to me before sex.
But I went with my heart on this one folks. I acted with kindness, courage and decency. He did not.
So, listen, I understand!!!!!!!! this woman’s frustration and pain.
jack 47
Ellen-
The idea that you “attract” alpha control freaks is interesting. You attract what you set bait for.
My guess is that you are unknowingly send signals that keep good men away, and leaves alpha control freaks to come in and take advantage.
Change your bait, and you will change what you catch.
jack 48
By the way, that woman’s profile is only going to attract more of the same.
My primary reaction in reading it was that I would stay far, far away from such a woman.
By the way, to at least one earlier commenter: Without even mentioning her high partner count, one could easily infer it from her general demeanor.
Guys have lots of ways to know that a woman is high-number. There are lots of giveaways that she has been careless with her sexuality.
Ruby 49
Ellen #46
“But my mistake was dating him at all. He did tell me early on he only wanted to casually date, but our chemistry was such I couldn’t walk away. I also knew he was career transitional and accepted that. Knew he might move out of state before Xmas even”
I think you’ve answered your own question. When a man tells you he only wants to casually date, believe him, no matter how much chemistry there is.
Annie 50
@46 Ellen.
My goodness.
You text a man, and he doesn’t respond. Then you call him. He still doesn’t respond. Then you text him at 3am in the MORNING…then we he removes you from his life you THEN send him text messages critisizing him…
…and you claim he reacted with immaturity?
You walked around on eggshells for THREE MONTHS?? Why? Because if you thought you were a different person he’d like you more?.
He told you he wanted to casually date, but you decided you wanted it to be serious, because “you could not help yourself”. Why did you not take him at his word?
This man didn’t screw you in anyway. You did that to yourself. Harsh, but true. Keep calling men cowards, when they choose not to deal with fake, needy women. But they are not the problem…we are.
Joe 51
Ellen, it sounds to me like you’re just as at fault for your feeling crappy as your guy is, if not more. He told you what he wanted, but you ignored him. Yet you expected him to conform to what YOU wanted. He didn’t do anything unreasonable.
Goldie 52
Yah, I sat on my hands at first because I like it when people agree with me, and so didn’t want to alienate Ellen, but the only number I’d be dialing at 3AM would be (heaven forbid) 911, if there’s a family emergency. Everything else can be done during my normal operating hours.
So, Ellen, you texted him at 3AM saying you couldn’t date him, so he took you off his Facebook… sounds to me like you’re even… ya know? Also, apparently he sent you a nice parting email, and, it is also apparent to me that he has issues of his own (“Three days later I get an email saying his shrink that week said he was “into unhealthy relationships” – TMI in my book, but if he needed to say this, well, who am I to judge). I’d say he tried his best to end things in a decent manner. Next time, though, take my advice and, when you get an urge to text a guy at 3AM… go back to sleep. I’d be livid if my phone went off at 3 in the morning with a text from a guy – I have to get up at 5:30, for crying out loud, and deserve some rest!
In my case, I wish the man had told me he “only wanted to casually date”. I would’ve happily casually dated… or not… depending on the mood I’d be in. But I’d definitely play by the rules I was given. Either way, I’d walk away happy and content at the end. Instead, I was fed mixed messages until they made my head spin
I took myself off his FB BTW. I just had that feeling that I didn’t belong on his friends list, since we weren’t exactly “staying friends” as originally intended. Reading his stuff made me feel like an intruder – like I was looking at someone’s personal records that I had no business looking at. So, I sent him a message explaining all that, and hit the little “x” next to his name… apparently a huge etiquette blunder. Oh well I will know better next time…
Trenia 53
This woman’s manifesta and the comments here point out what I think she was getting at, the double-standards regarding women’s sexuality and sex practices. No surprise there. The very fact that we’re still using the word slut goes to show how people still think and judge women’s sexuality. I don’t care for the use of the term stud because there is no male equivalent to slut, there is no meaning behind it.
The reality when you really get down to it, there is no rhyme or reason why some people end up in happy relationships while others don’t. I know lots of women who could’ve written exactly what she wrote, but they changed their tune after meeting the right guy. On the flip side, there are women who think highly of themselves and aren’t angry and bitter and they’re alone.
Ellen 54
Update: I apologized for the texts, he did too in his own way. Called himself “not the most considerate person”.
Last text I got from him was a reiteration that he couldn’t handle anything steady right now.
But, hey, I’m an alpha female in my own way so am currently fighting the urge to open the door between us in the near future. I usually go quietly in those rare instances I am dumped (He described our parting as mutual, but whatever. Semantics)…..Give him plenty of space and then ask if he would be amenable to a “do-over”. lol
I understand all of Evan’s rules/advice- they make MUCH sense- for certain women. But I live in a small town with few eligible men. The best men are over an hr. away by car. In my experience, chemistry of any kind whether the man is open to a relationship or not is HARD to come by. He will leave probably before Xmas anyway so why not make the overture? Why not grab some love when I can? That’s my two cents, but I am not like most on this board. I’ve been married/divorced twice, known true love twice, maybe more (again, semantics) so not looking for that exactly. Had my children. So what I’m trying to find is not the norm maybe.
I am simply looking for a nice, steady “weekend” boyfriend, nothing more, nothing less. So YEAH I’m willing to overlook a lot, maybe “settle” some to get it. Not be poorly treated, but willing to compromise, accept imperfection. Quirks. Heck I have quirks of my own now….Maybe it has something to do with the fact I am staring down 60 at this point. Don’t know.
I am betting he will feel the same way, but I haven’t completely decided what to do. If I do do it (ask for a “do over” it will be the first time in 58 years I’ve humbled myself in this way for a man (imo))….
Btw, some of the comments here are so harsh! Really ya’ll don’t EVER know the full details, so why rush to judgment? Often I don’t post for advice but to make a case or to support someone. I simply give snippets of my dating life hoping they will help or be edification for someone else. But I would never call someone the names I’ve been called this week. If anything you should have had compassion for the pain I recently experienced.
Lord.
Goldie 55
Aw geez, Ellen! Feedback is a gift. If I understand it correctly, you lost a guy you like, in part because of something you did, amirite? So now you know what it was, and won’t do it next time, thus sparing yourself more pain. I wish someone gave me the same kind of feedback too, so I’d stop second-guessing myself already. Also, sounds like you’ve been able to mend things some, after what you’ve read on here. Good luck with the do-over – not a huge fan of do-overs myself, but hey, if it works for the two of you…
Annie 56
Ellen…
I take this blog as a place to learn, a place to advise and accept advice.
Otherwise, there’s not really much point. Don’t rely on blogs for compassion.
rich 57
shes a total ass.
Ellen 58
Hey, Goldie, my daughter has Aspergers (she’s 20).
Anyway, the “do-over” is scheduled for tomorrow night. Wish me luck.
Probably ill-advised, but he’s the best man in 2+ years of online dating I’ve found, chemistry-wise. Affectionate like me, just troubled. But aren’t we all, in our own ways?
Over the years I’ve become a risktaker and usually have my ego under control. Else, I couldn’t do it at all. It would be easy to stop all contact but I am lately haunted by the “what if?”……………….
PS Carol Allen, relationship astrologer (& advertiser here) told me recently by email, personally, my love luck will change big time in November THRU 2014 so thank God for that! Saturn has been giving me hell lately! (2004-2011) lol It’s called karma, “your portion” as the Hindus say and having been to India three times I do believe partially in astrology.
Anna 59
I wouldn’t comment much on her situation…but I think it’s complicated even though she tries to make it seem dead-simple…and it’s not such a happy situation even though she manages to find happiness here and there. But it’s the kind of happiness you can also find lingering on a happy shy -and maybe stupid- daisy. Just observing fleeting situations images and feelings. She’s right about many things, about the feelings she describes and her honest suggestions, but I would never do what she does. Also, you can never be right giving up on love. BUT I truly really ADMIRE her writing, how it’s truthful to the core (I think we don’t even realize how many cliches and stereotypes and common stuff we UNKNOWINGLY adopt all the time, without caring or stopping to raise a question)…I didn’t read all of it today but I’ll read more when I have the time, even though I don’t agree with her, because deep down we all crave for that kind of sincerity. And she is sincere…and brave…and on a path I totally disagree with. But who am I to judge? “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing there is a field. I will meet you there.” Maybe her sincerity and bravery will someday run into a better idea. She’s a good person.
Ellen 60
Saw this today- thought of everybody (especially the women!):
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/juliet-jeske/dating-after-divorce-in-a_b_944133.html
Btw, went to his apartment Monday night and long story, short, we are back on! Talked til 2 am and at one point he looked at me and said “I don’t know you at all.” (We both had too many wrong assumptions about each other.) In the morning we pledged to try to accept one another, warts and all.
Ray 61
She’s brilliant. And probably on a healthier life path than alot of the sad sacks who go on OkCupid bliethely unaware of their impact on other people.
My real interest are in the comments where people wag their fingers saying how much guys don’t respect women who have sex with them early. Newsflash… it takes TWO to tango. And like the woman on this OKC profile… If a guy pushes for sex early with me… he just might get it… but he will also get dumped in a few weeks or maybe even before then no matter how much he says he’s into me or how much he says he wants to be ‘exclusive’.
So word up… start taking some responsibility for your man-parts your own self. Women aren’t here to babysit your parts for you or ‘make’ you do the right thing.
NonExist 62
Interesting writings by angryjanedoe.
Trying to rationalize to herself that she can do what has been done to her but by being direct and up front about it. Thing is if her emotion was not deep to begin with those experiences would not hurt her so bad.
And I believe there is a violation of her spirit that she is not mentioning because her behavior fits a pattern more found in certain other tragic evens than just being lied to and used by men. Even though she claims otherwise.
I do wish I could meet someone with whom I shared mutual attraction and goals who is as direct and forward as she is though.
Even with the cynicism , she still has what seems to be an interesting mind.
There is a sneaking suspicion though that secretly she may wish that she had a loving guy… semi subtly implied…. sort of daring some guy to try to change her heart… if that makes any sense.
The thing is she is actually very aware of what she is doing.
And not at all blind to what is going on nor is she immersed in ‘fantasy’.
DinaStrange 63
I liked her stuff. At least she is not trying to sell you anything….