Does Online Dating Even Work?!
Dear Evan,
I was curious as to what your real opinion is of online dating. I did meet my girlfriend online, but after a year of painful struggle, meaning hardly any dates despite being educated, employed, and reasonably attractive. Friends of both genders tell that their experiences have been hard in different ways. My guy friends (also educated, attractive) complain that they get no responses and female acquaintences tell me that they get so many emails, etc, that they don’t know where to start-and often do nothing. They don’t have time to “date around” several times a week.(actually neither would I). I assume that the problem exists due to security. Women, being more vulnerable than men, are more hesitant to date online, so you get a situation where there’s a lot more men than women. Aside from my own luck and the trendy radio ads and sexy commercials, it seems as if no one’s happy.
Geoff
Dear Geoff,
Glad to hear you found someone special, and even happier that you spoke up. Most of the people that write about online dating write about what’s wrong with it. It makes sense. I mean, that’s what news is – emphasize the bad, misery loves company, etc. Turn on the TV and it’s not about kittens being saved from trees, but drive-by shootings. That doesn’t mean there aren’t plenty of kittens saved from trees.
Go to one of those websites that reviews dating sites and you’ll see the same. Average review will be 2 out of 5 stars or something like that. Why? Because people who get married from online dating sites rarely get back online to post happy reviews on websites. They move on with their lives, while everyone else complains about the sites and the awful people on the sites.
I don’t deny ANYBODY the negative experiences that they’ve had. I just urge people to find some healthier perspective on the whole thing. A private client told me just this weekend that she’s quitting online dating after three bad dates in a row. Here is what I wrote back to her:
First of all, I’ve had EVERY bad dating experience you can possibly imagine. I’ve had women write me nasty emails, insult me over the phone, ignore my phone calls, stand me up, refuse to thank me for dinner, refuse to reciprocate in bed… Are you getting the idea? And yet I still run around as this super dating advocate, because I believe it is the best prospect to find someone special. If you choose to wait for lightning to strike until you go on another date with the “right” guy, you might be waiting a long, long time. Like, FOREVER.
Abstinence isn’t the answer. Mustering the courage to persevere in light of bad experience is.
Listen, you might think I’m nuts to keep on preaching positivity. That’s fair. All I know is that it’s freakin’ HARD to meet someone. We have our small lives: our circle of married friends, our work buddies, a few single people, and that’s it. And as you get into your mid-30′s, the bar scene is really old and set-ups have become a bit of a joke. While it’s nice to say, “I want to meet someone organically, where our eyes meet, so I can feel chemistry”, that simply doesn’t happen very often. This is why I believe in online dating. Not because it’s perfect – not by a long shot. But because it creates opportunity where previously there was none. My first love, in 2003, was a Filipino woman that worked in the pharmaceutical industry and lived in a different part of town. I NEVER would have met her in “real life”. But I did meet her on Nerve.com. My best friend in New York is marrying a man she met on eHarmony. My sister is in love with a man she met on Nerve. My sister’s best friend is in love with a man she met on eHarmony. I have dozens of clients who are married, engaged and in love with people they met online. And these are just the people that I know well.
So let’s acknowledge the flaws of online dating: the liars, the bores, the flakes, the crazies, the morons, the perverts, the poor spellers, and so on. These people exist offline as well. They just have access to you online. So as I see it, you have two choices: quit online dating and make a supreme effort to go to as many parties, coffee shops and adult education classes as possible OR try to find a way to avoid the worst of the online daters. The third, and most popular choice, is to quit and wait for your soulmate to drop out of the sky, like “The Secret” for love. Yeah, keep praying, people.
Your best bet is to keep dusting yourself off, learning from your mistakes, and staying in the game. Sure, sometimes you’ll get burned. But sometimes, with enough perseverence (as well as luck, timing, a good profile and a positive attitude), you’ll fall in love. And if it hasn’t happened to you yet, you can say “What’s wrong with these terrible people on these awful sites?” Or you can ask, “How can I make this work for me, despite the obvious flaws?”
You know where I stand. But I’ll tell you, all it takes is one person – and you’ll be standing right with me.
 |
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239 Comments »Filed Under Favorites, Online Dating
Shrew 1
When my father heard I was online dating he was deeply sceptical. He told me a story about a friend of his whose internet date had turned out to be morbidly obese as evidence that it was an avenue to be avioded at all costs. When I responded that
a) There are worse things in life then having dinner with someone who you find unattractive, and
b) His friend was at fault for not exchanging photos before meeting up
he was totally unconvinced, and more then a tad miffed that i should question his judgement. (Bear in mind that there weren’t even PCs around he was last single)
Anyway, my dad’s friend has subsequently met a great woman on the internet with whom he is in a committed relationship. Has my dad’s attitude changed- of course not- in fact i doubt he even recognises a connection.
My point, is that when people decide they’re going to form a negative opinion about something- negatively and consistency go out the window- and that’s why the internet horror stories receive such disproportionate prominence
Loverville 2
Like you said… of course it has its pros and cons, like anything else in life.
I had a four-year relationship with someone I met online. And I’ve also met inconsiderate guys who “disappeared”, smart guys, not-so-smart guys, great guys, fun guys, guys who liked me (but the feeling wasn’t mutual), as well as the other way around. All types.
Yes, it’s a numbers game. I believe that you have to put yourself out there and take a chance if you’d like to meet someone.
Janet 3
I think you’re totally right that online dating is much better than the alternatives, even if it’s not perfect, but your reply begged the question.
The reader raised specific and common problems that people have with online dating, and you probably have better insight than anyone how to deal with them. For instance:
1. What’s a normal response rate? Should a guy who gets 5% response rate try to improve something, or should he feel like that’s about average?
2. If a woman gets a flood of emails on a dating site, how can she weed through them quickly and fairly?
I’ve really enjoyed reading your blog.
Cheers,
Janet
Lanie 4
OK, here’s my take on the situation,
Dating online works. You gotta look at it in a freakonomics style! And it seems every man on my dating website has read the darn book, so you guys might be able to relate to this and ladies, listen up, it works!
There are a given number of possibilites out there in the world for you. You date online, and you expand your possibilities for meeting a match. But as there are a lots of frogs in the real world, there are a lot of cyber frogs as well. So, if you get hundreds of responses as a woman, you’ve got to cull through the bogs to get to the 3-5% that are worth responding to. Then of that 3-5%, the rate of success may only be 1. BUT 1 is all you need!! So, to answer teh rate of return for guys: if the standard guy puts out 50 fishing nets for a fish and he gets a couple responses back, that falls in line with our response rate as women!
As for women weeding through the hundreds of ads quickly, let’s be honest, go for the ones that are aesthetically pleasing to YOUR eye, keep a list of possible secondary ones and then discard the others. When you’ve picked a handful of ones that look most promising, take the time to really read their profiles and be honest with yourself!!
My friends and I have foudn this process works pretty well and quickly!
Good luck
Happy Matching!
hunter 5
I heard, there are only, three dating sites, that have the most people on it. I believe it was match, american singles, and Yahoo. Even then, the ratio, if you are in your 20′s, is not good for men, but, I was told, it increases if you are looking for a mature woman….
Collins 6
Online dating does work for some people; for others it doesn’t. The ladies have the advantage here because they get a flood of msgs from guys within minutes of posting their profiles. We guys, on the other hand, get very few responses to our profiles other than form letters from girls who look like porn stars & are most likely spammers. Just like, during sex, millions of sperm race toward one egg–so too in online dating, hundreds of us men compete for the attention of one woman, so our prospects of ever getting a reply, much less a date, are bleak. Thus I believe that online dating works better for women than for men.
hunter 7
to collins,
smart, intelligent women select with their ears,,,,,,,,, it is in the wording, your profile has to say, what a woman needs to hear……
JerryC 8
Why Internet Porn is better than Internet Dating…
Internet Dating: 90 percent of women on it are dogs
Internet Porn: 90 percent of women on it are hot
Internet Dating: Takes lots of time, little payoff
Internet Porn: Takes little time, big payoff
Internet Dating: Identifying multiple personality factors that ensure compatibility
Internet Porn: Big tits/hot body = compatibility
Internet Dating: To find that special someone who will love you for being you
Internet Porn: To never worry about that special someone turning your life into a living nightmare
Internet Dating: Waiting days or weeks to see if she’ll return your e-mails
Internet Porn: Waiting seconds to download pics from “Hootersland.com”
Internet Dating: You’ll never have to go to a singles bar again
Internet Porn: You’ll never have to go to a singles bar again
Ruby 9
Hmmm. Online dating doesn’t work for average looking women over 30. I tried it for a year and only attracted men who seemed resentful that I was ‘all they could get’ and seemed to expect sex as some sort of ‘pay off’ for spending an afternoon with me. I entered into the experience with an open mind, viewing online dating as an opportunity to meet men outside work and my social circle, and was looking for friendship first, with the possibility of a relationship if we clicked. I’m trendy, well-groomed but average looking, and I’m very slim but petite (5ft). Suspecting I’m no man’s fantasy woman, I posted my same written profile with taller vital stats and a prettier girl’s photo – yep, approaches went through the roof. I know I should have expected more ‘success’ as a sweet leggy lady anyway, but that’s when I decided to leave online dating.
dadshouse 10
In the past 8 years, I’ve done plenty of online dating, enough that I’m considered an internet dating expert. My conclusion? It doesn’t work. As I’ve said in my blog, chemistry is felt, not articulated in checkboxes and online prose. Plus, expectations are too high going into an online date. You meet under the pretense that the other person might be “the one”. When they aren’t, you fell deflated. But a good date should make you feel the opposite – elated about the potential and possibility!
The best way to meet people to date is through friends – BBQs, parties, clubs, social groups. The common bond is a great starting point. What do you have in common with someone else who online dates – you both subscribed to the same service?
JB 11
Like a lot of people I’ve been internet dating since the dawn of the internet back when the sites were free….ie: Early “Webpersonals” was one of the first as was “American Singles” and even Yahoo personals was originally free. I’ll even go back further than that, before the internet we were using photoless newspaper personals with voice mail and sending letters and photo’s by snail mail…lol(quite the chore mind you back in 1989)
To answer the question “Does online dating work ?” The answer to that is an opinion ….but is it really ? If you go just by the numbers like what percentage of people actually make it to a “phone conversation” or a “coffee date” or a “5th date” or the unimaginable “I think it’s time we take our profiles down and only see each other”….lol let alone marriage. I think the numbers would show you’ve got a better chance of being struck by lightening on a sunny day than meeting your “soulmate”….lol That being said …can you meet people you wouldn’t normally meet and have some fun as well as a pile of frustration & aggravation thrown in for good measure. ABSOLUTELY !!
Will women get more dates and spend less money ? ABSOLUTELY !!
Will most men never get a response let alone a date ? ABSOLUTELY !!
Does online dating work ?? ABSOLUTELY !! for the people that are making millions running the sites as well as the very few people who meet someone and “hit it off” for ANY period of time.
I think Evan should write the definitive book on online dating and how it’s changed the landscape of dating & relationships in modern society.
IE: Women no longer have to leave the house and they can have 10 dates a week. They control pretty much every interaction online and the pace etc… They have so many options it even boggles their own minds to the point they get addicted to getting emailed everyday by idiots telling them “you’re hot”. Single moms who have no time to date or go out now have plenty of male companionship and interaction etc…
Women no longer have to go to a bar or singles event and wait to be approached by guys they don’t like. They can put up their blury picture from 5 yrs and 30 lbs ago and get tons of meaningless attention as well as deicde who they interact with and for how long…(usually 2 or 3 emails..lol) You get the drift as I’m rambling here. I’d be happy to co-author Evan. Let’s do it ! Unless it’s already been written and I have’nt found it ????
dadshouse 12
I’ve thought about this some more – turns out the online dating service sector is nearly a billion dollar a year industry. There’s money to be made by people who promote. Last I checked, the “online dating doesn’t work” industry isn’t quite so lucrative…
vino 13
My not-so-scientific conclusions for the women 25-40 range. I’ve done match. Criteria – body type is slender, athletic or average. All other criteria open. I won’t look at the rest.
70% Single mothers – out. I’m not dating single mothers.
Remaining 30% – Here’s where it gets funny.
Weed out the ones who are ugly, or who are lying ( ie – ‘athletic’ means 5’6″ and could play linebacker for the 49ers). – 60% of the remaining 30%, so 12% of the available candidates are left.
Of the remaining 12% – start weeding out the non-compatible things. I love the 5’5″ girls who want guys 6’2″ & up. Smokers, out. Weed out the women who expect they guy earn 2-3x more than they (you know, the teachers who want their date to make $150k +), weed out the attention whores who have their bikini pictures on there (good to look at, bad to date) or multiple pictures of dresses showing tons of cleavage. Very subtle. (and yet, they complain when we look…)
Further weed out the ones of pictures with professional athletes & actors (high mileage, VERY high mileage).
Weed out the plastic queens – the black eyebrows and unnaturally blonde hair, usually accompanied by very tan (real, UV, or spray-on) skin, fake nails, etc…see also attention whores and money hungry above.
Weed out the narcissists – the bodybuilders & fitness competitors, triathletes & every-other-weekend-is-a-race types. They’re addicts, maybe not of booze or drugs, but that same addicitive behavior is turned to fitness, etc. (Don’t get me wrong – I love working out & do it often, just not as a 2nd job. I also like to eat fun stuff, not count every calorie & food type)
Once you slog through that remaining 12% there’s little else left. The reality is that good, attractive, emotionally & physically healthy women don’t need to use an online service. It comes to them. It simply isn’t worth the time effort & expense to sort through all of this, if you’re a guy.
My 2 cents.
vino 14
Ugh. Here’s a fun little profile. 38 Y.O., no kids. Attractive pictures, though, including boob job.
“I am a romantic, someone who believes Prince Charming still exists.”
Translation – I am a princess who doesn’t like reality as it applies between men & women.
“First impressions count! It is a must for me to feel chemistry!”
Translation – YOU better be hot, because even though I am 38 years old and 8+ years past my best looking days, I have fake boobs & botox. Therefore I am hot.
“I am searching for a partner that does not shy away from commitment.”
Translation – I am seeking someone who is blind, deaf & dumb to relationships, and would jump off a bridge willingly. I also think men a puerile who won’t grow up & commit to a woman, ignoring my responsibility in choosing men who won’t commit.
“Creative, independent, professional, sophisticated, and articulate female seeking a gentleman, who is: charming, romantic, refined, thoughtful, spontaneous and determined to find their soul-mate.”
Translation – Self-absorbed, over-estimated self, seeks sucker out of bad romance novel who as a ‘gentleman’ is willing to pay for everything.
Oh, I didn’t mention she had her date needs to make $150k +. Her income info is blank, but she does mention being self-employed.
At least she didn’t have cats.
cinnamon 15
Ive never tried on-line dating and I guess Im not planning to do it in the nearest future. Here are just a few of my reservations:
1. Essentially, I do not see myself using a supermarket approach to address an issue of a pretty existential nature. I think the below quote from one of the posters is a good illustration of what I mean by supermarket approach:
As for women weeding through the hundreds of ads quickly, lets be honest, go for the ones that are aesthetically pleasing to YOUR eye, keep a list of possible secondary ones and then discard the others.
2. Then, there is an issue of how you perceive your, so called, private sphere. I do not see myself placing a photo (not to mention a photo showing the cleavage) and a lot of personal info on a public website where it can be viewed by basically everyone. (I guess people differ very much in what they perceive as a part of their private sphere as opposed to public sphere.)
3. I would be afraid that men who set themselves an OBJECTIVE TO FIND A GIRLFRIEND would want such a relationship to progress too quickly than what I would find comfortable.
4. I would NOT set myself an OBJECTIVE TO FIND A BOYFRIEND. Well, I do not believe that a soulmate might drop out of the sky, but I do believe that sometimes we just come to a realization that this someone who is around makes so much difference that you just cannot imagine the world without them.
Besides, a value a good story
So to a question “So, how you guys met?” I don’t want to answer “On match.com”
Evan Marc Katz 16
I normally don’t do this, but I can’t help myself.
Cinnamon:
1) If you’re meeting tons of great guys to date in real life, good for you! You don’t need online dating. However, if you aren’t dating lots and are wondering why your love life is dry, you’re spiting yourself by not going online.
2) See #1. Wanting to have a love life without making an effort to achieve it is empty. Wanting to date online and worrying about anonymity is similar. It’s like wanting to be an Olympic swimmer without getting wet. Hey, if you’re a politician or celebrity, I can see why you’d want to stay anonymous. But if you’re concerned about what others would think – uh – everyone else there is dating online, too. No shame in that.
3) You’re assuming that every guy who dates online is the same. I couldn’t imagine a more faulty assumption.
4) It’s great to be a happy and healthy single. It’s counterintuitive to think “your prince will come” when he has no idea where to meet you. Online dating is the most obvious spot to meet likeminded single people. But hey, go try the gym and let me know how it goes.
And to your last point: Yeah, the hundreds of thousands of happy couples who met online are really crying that they don’t have a better story to tell at parties.
I thank you, Cinnamon, for providing a valuable service to all the people out there who think like you do. Until you challenge your preconceived notions of how things are (Online dating is weird, it’s for losers, it’s for desperate people, love will find you when you least expect it), you’re doomed to the same results you’ve already been getting.
Warmest wishes – with love.
Evan
vino 17
More from the files of “What not to write in a first email”
“Funny we both have XXXX XXXXXXXX in our list of books recently read. Love his simple, straightforward advice. What type business are you in?”
Subtle.
huntergreen 18
Dating online is beneficial long-term to those to who own and promote the sites, bottom line is money making, not quality. They sell people and the few success stories they have, but no one really knows the statistical outcomes of meeting online. The divorce rate in the US is still very high, even higher for second marriages. We’re still doing something very wrong to have the cornerstone, most important relationship of our adult lives, fail…
I guess if you’re not too busy and don’t mind having to psychoanalyze and background check you’ve got it made. My findings are most people online are not living authentic lives and are not attractive to me. They can sure “sound” like they are, but only after time, sometimes a lot of time, can one see the truth. I want to meet the healthy people who are living good quality lives, and that success, for me personally, only happens in person. Being in communities where people know people helps reduce the amount of sleuthing I have to do. I have found the best quality of people off-line.
To me, doing the online thing takes too long to filter out who the liars are because some people have had lifelong experience at it and can be quite good. Meeting the person in person usually seals the deal or ends it. I am often quite surprised at how carelessly, haphazardly, and cluelessly some people go about this very important process. If they’re a flake at dating, I don’t need any further information!
With the proliferation of spammers, married people, general scum online, I have had much better success online dating in the past than recently. I no bother with online dating sites, I am looking for authentic folks who live the lives they say they do, not those who are online due to boredom, loneliness, lack of social skills, for whom this is merely a game, etc.
Online dating works for some, but for me it is way too much work for something I was paying money for when the quality people don’t seem to be online anyway.
JuJu 19
vino,
like attracts like.
That’s all I am gonna say.
Andrew Hunt 20
Dating Online is not perfect. But really annoys me is when girls I ask out from dating sites put Online dating down yet they are there to chat to. I use Online Dating as a gateway to meeting someone and arranging to meet up. I can tell you I have had three girlfriends.
All from Plenty Of Fish.com.
The only way I can understand why people try to talk me out of using online dating is because they are so confident that they don’t need online dating to meet someone. But why are they on there then?
It is hypocritical. I am a shy man who just wants to be given a chance and I have met loads of wrong people online. But as I mentioned earlier I have met girls from the net so that is the main reason I keep using Online Dating sites. It isn’t the site’s fault it is the people I choose to talk to. Sorry if it offends anyone but I sometimes don’t get why confident people are online. They are capable enough to meet someone for real in a club or something.
vino 21
don’t shoot the messenger juju, just b/c you dislike the message.
more from the what not to write archives of dating…
vino: “thanks for the wink. how is your Tuesday?”
Mz X: “it’s sunny & beautiful out, so it is all good. A little more about me – I’m from the east coast, undergrad in xxx, law school in xxx. I livedin xxx,then I moved here. So what’s your story?”
vino: “A lawyer? My momma told me to stay away from lady lawyers…they were all trouble.
I also hail from the east, lived in xxx for undergrad,then in xxx, now here. I see you like wines. Any particular favorites?”
Mz X: “I like malbecs and since I lived in NZ for awhile, I like pinots too. It’s cool you lived in xxxx. I spent a semester in xxxx. It was lots of fun. So what is it you do?”
mmmm. So subtle. I found this in the email archives. Aside from the fact her pictures sucked (blurry & poorly lit), she’s a lawyer & therefore ‘out.’ Reason – preoccupation with what I do for work. Not one thing about my profile (ie- me) , but made a point tell me 2x she is a lawyer (it’s in her profile too). Essentially, all she did was tell me where she’s lived so that I would give her my resume. blech.
JuJu 22
Okay, let me attempt to word this in a way that would likely pass the censorship here: you, vino, complain how all women are just cold-hearted calculating bitches, but did you ever stop to think why a genuinely nice and kind person would want to be with you?
cinnamon 23
JuJu,
re: 22
That was below the belt.
vino 24
Juju, please read my previous posts. Nowhere have I ever said ‘all’ women are heartless bitches or anything so absolute. If you wish to insult, at least be marginally accurate. By the way, by so insulting without provocation, please consider the possibility you prove my point. Have a nice day.
cinn,
A pleasure seeing you , as always.
JuJu 25
All right.
I’ve led the horse to water.
Cilla 26
Vino,
I gotta say I’m as cynical and sarcastic as the next person (I even composed a form letter for the many mismatched suitors who flooded my box–e.g. “Clearly, from your photo, you are not 45. I’m not dating Gandalf, Santa, or the guy holding the pitchfork in ‘American Gothic.’” ) But you sound like you have an enormous chip on your shoulder. Not every woman who asks about your profession is a gold digger. For most people it’s just a safe conversation starter. We’ve been warned to stay away from so many hot button issues, it leaves us precious little in the way of innocuous banter. Would you be happier if she asked, “What medications do you take on a regular basis?” or “How often do you change your sheets? or “Where do you stand on a woman’s right to choose?” Sheesh.
vino 27
Cilla,
First, I’m reprinting previous things from online dating – where there was an extensive profile indicating local restaurants I like, several recent books read, places I’ve gone, activities I enjoy, funny movies, etc. There are pictures of my dog. There are at least a dozen things to ask about. But what’s the first or second question – “What do you do for work?” Nearly every time. Who cares? I’m not working with them….They care. Blech.
There are several threads on this site on the subject of money & dating, so I won’t rehash those arguments. I’d suggest reading them. One look at match.com that shows how many women expect their ‘dates’ to earn 2x what they earn is nothing short of shocking.
On the subject of safe conversation starters, how hard is it to say, “Oh I see you like wine. Have you been to Napa/Sonoma?” Or “I read Freakanomics too. What was your favorite part? Mine was…?” Or, “Oh, you like hiking? Have you ever been to Yosemite?” I mean, how hard is that really to start a conversation? Answer – it isn’t. So please spare me the criticism for pointing out disingenuous behavior.
Sheesh.
“Weve been warned to stay away from so many hot button issues, it leaves us precious little in the way of innocuous banter.” What? Victims of not knowing what to say? Puh-lease. Don’t be so obvious is all. You’re still being less-than-open, but it’s easier to tolerate.
“But you sound like you have an enormous chip on your shoulder.” Ah yes, I’m unreasonably angry for pointing out people who clearly don’t care about me, but what I can give or do for them.
“Not every woman who asks about your profession is a gold digger.” – Most are – see articles quoted in other threads.
Oh, and….
What medications do you take on a regular basis?
- Aspirin & ibuprofen
How often do you change your sheets?”
- Where’s the wet spot again?
Where do you stand on a womans right to choose?
Choose all you want. Just don’t come looking for $ from him because of YOUR choice.
Have a nice evening
Scott 28
Well after reading this thread I finally realize I am not the only male who has not had any luck with dating websites. I’ve tried them all from the free ones to E-harmony, and nothing has worked…
I’m a 39 yr old, attractive, educated, active, employed, single dad who doesn’t have time to go all over the place looking for “the one”, so I thought I would try it online. UGH…
Here is what I have discovered, and feel free to comment or correct me if you think I’m wrong…
1. It ALL comes down to the picture. Nothing more, nothing less. If the woman does not find you even semi-attractive, you won’t even get a visit to your profile.
2. IF you get the visit to your profile, it then comes down to the “two” vital stats, height and weight. If you are too short or too tall, too fat or too thin, this is the next eliminating step.
3. IF you make it past 1 and 2, then it comes down to your occupation and how much money you make. No matter how much the woman professes she doesn’t care about money or a job and that she is very independent, she wants a man that can take care of her. If you don’t make the amount she is comfortable with, you’re done.
4. IF you have kids under the age of 18, you’re done at this step. She is single and wants ALL the attention. IF she has kids under the age of 18 and a really good parent, she’s probably not on the dating website to begin with. She is “too busy” to date.
5. If (and only if) you make it past these steps, will she finally read what your profile has to say.
What I don’t get is that most women’s profiles tell you all of the qualities she is looking for in a man and how important they are to her. But none of these qualities are ever the “eliminating ones”. As long as you pass through steps 1 and 5, she would be happy to take a man that blows her off three times for a date, tells her she’s fat, beats on her for fun, and tells her how much he hates her family. And you know what, if he broke it off with her and called her back in a month, she’d be happy to take him back.
JuJu 29
Scott,
I can’t see what exactly surprises you. Wouldn’t 1 and 2 be the eliminating factors for you as well? 3 is so deeply rooted in our biology and evolution that I don’t know how many generations it will take for the situation to change. I personally know a woman with an exaggerated sense of responsibility (in all areas of life), and she is absolutely unable to accept the man paying for anything at all, but that’s an aberration rather than the norm.
But what I wanted to comment on was 4. I once dated a man with a child from a previous marriage, before I had any preferences on the subject. He had his daughter every weekend. Whatever parties and events I was invited to I had to attend alone. (That particular situation was exacerbated by the fact that on weekdays he worked until 8 or 9 pm.) And sooner or later the question arises: why do I need a boyfriend at all? I felt like I was on my own all the time anyway.
If I have a choice (and I do), why would I agree to the additional liability of someone else’s child? Besides, it’s not like I am asking for anything I cannot offer.
Of course the qualities they list mean “after the basic prerequisites are fulfilled” (most commonly, the physical attraction).
I am sure the process is exactly the same for [many] men. Including your very last point.
JuJu 30
By the way, as far as the numbers are concerned, you forgot age.
I don’t even answer the e-mails that do not include a picture [in which I can actually see the person] and the vital stats. I can’t afford to.
JB 31
Scott, you are right. It all comes down to the picture. For a kick you should find a guy’s pic that’s a “10″ put it up on any site and watch how ridiculous all the women act and the crazy things that they say and do….lol
This profile I actually wrote in less than a minute with NO substance on purpose and because he was “hot” every woman “loved his profile”…lol
go figure. Like Evan says it’s human nature. Everyone(men too) thinks they deserve the most attractive people on the site. Even if they’re a “3″.
What it really taught me is that as a guy who’s maybe a “5″ or a “6″ I basically have very little or NO value online. Even with quality pics I still look like I look …lol I still try though but it’s “just another club in the bag” as far as meeting women. What are gonna do ? Hang out in the supermarket ?? …LOL
Scott 32
JuJu,
I hear what you are saying, and NO, I’m not surprised by any of it. I think it just goes to show why internet dating does not really work for most men. Except for Evan (who is probably getting a kickback from a dating service), most of the comments I have read here from men are NOT positive.
I didn’t include or even consider age because when I am looking at a women’s profile it generally indicates what she is looking for as an age range. If I don’t fit in, I don’t initiate a contact.
As women, like you said, you have a choice. You just watch all the emails collect in your inbox. Men, on the other hand don’t have it that way.
Maybe I’m not the “norm” for guys but I’d like to think there are a lot of men out there like me. When I do a search for women that I “match” with, I actually do read the profiles of those who I might not find “very” attractive at first glance. I do know from having relationships in my past, that personality and character can go a long way to making someone seem attractive. It’s the package, not just the picture. I’ve read profiles of women who became even more attractive after I took the time to read about them. If compatibility and personality were not a big factor in making a relationship work, then why some dating sites use them as the criteria for matching?
From what your saying, it seems the dating sites would be more effective if we could punch in hair color, eye color, boob size, big butt, small butt, well hung, build, etc. and come up with matches in your zip code that way. Once you get that out of the way, then you can read the more superficial stuff in the profile.
As far as kids? If a man is truly looking to integrate you into his life with his children, it can be done. It takes some work on everyones part. But like you said, YOU have “a choice”, because your inbox will be full again in the next 24 hours…
Scott
JuJu 33
Scott,
I am bi-cultural and use ethnic dating sites, as I would ideally prefer someone with the same background (that explains the different [from something like match.com] format).
It’s exactly the same way for me, I don’t have to find the person VERY attractive, merely acceptable, appearance-wise. I couldn’t care less about the color of anything (I honestly could know a person for years and not even know their eye color (unless it’s brown, but only because that’s usually easy to predict)), and sometimes I wish the size was a known from the start =), as it could potentially completely ruin the courtship, but I have to disagree with you on all those criteria as being part of the person’s profile – I can see almost all the things that interest me in a clear full-height picture anyway =), and not all of them matter, to me.
As for that relationship I had – at that point I wasn’t exactly looking to be “integrated”. It takes time for both parties to decide whether the introduction to the kids is even warranted, and we only survived 5-6 weeks. The first couple of weeks he came over every night, and we both somehow subsisted on 3 hours of sleep during that period, but it’s not sustainable long-term. If I felt that the man (any man with children) simply completes me, I guess I would have gone through the effort required, but the likelihood of that is negligible anyway.
And as far as “kickbacks” are concerned – I could tell you about so many negative experiences of my own (with online dating), so much disappointment and disillusionment that sometimes took me prolonged periods of time to recover from. Only to harp on that would not be helpful to anyone including myself. In terms of quantity, if not quality, online dating still remains the best way to meet new people. Try to vary your methods some, though, participate in activities with your children and whatnot – some women just swoon over men they perceive as good fathers.
Evan Marc Katz 34
“Kickbacks”? Honestly, Scott.
Everything I say, I believe, because I’ve seen it up close.
I’ve helped people find love in both their 20′s and 60′s.
I’ve helped Asian men meet Caucasian women.
I’ve helped a pair of sisters find love.
I’ve helped a woman in a wheelchair to get engaged.
So while I’m not denying the source of anyone’s negativity – it IS a jungle out there – I can GUARANTEE you that every single person reading this can improve their success exponentially with new photos, a new profile, a new email technique, and a new understanding of the opposite sex.
There are MILLIONS of positive stories out there. If you don’t have them, the answer isn’t to blame the system, however unfair it might be. It’s to do something different.
Scott 35
Evan,
I would really appreciate hearing some of the success stories out there. Can you please post some legitimate details, including what their picture looked like, what they wrote, how they corresponded, where they met? You know, SPECIFIC details about specific situations, including the websites they used.
While I find your words enlightening, you speak in very broad and general terms with no real specifics (unless I am missing them somewhere on your site) to back them up. What ARE these “success” stories? Do we get that information for free, or is that part of your “paid” services when we “work with you?
Since most men are very detail oriented and very specific in nature, maybe that would help us to be more encouraged with this website dating that you are so excited about. Details, please…
All of us men would like to know!
Thanks,
Scott
Evan Marc Katz 36
Scott,
It would be no exaggeration to say that I have hundreds of customer testimonials. It would also be no exaggeration to say that most people I work with don’t like having their names and photos attached to a very Googleable dating coach.
So, am I going to post the emails that I helped teach my clients to write? No.
Am I going to post their essays and “out” them to the world? No.
I trust that you appreciate my discretion on behalf of my valued clients. I’m not being evasive. I’m being honorable.
However, if your appetite is still not satiated, click here to see a few success stories from the first 18 months of my business:
http://www.e-cyrano.com/services.html
Click here if you want to hear some more recent tales of success:
http://www.evanmarckatz.com/testimonials.html
And if you’re still skeptical about my “success” stories and “paid” services for “working” with me, well, there’s nothing I’m going to do that’s going to convince you.
Have a good weekend.
Evan
Karl R 37
I took advantage of the free advice that Evan has posted around, and it improved the number of responses that I got.
I spent about 8 or 9 months last year using online dating. Nothing went past the first few dates. But I’d still say that online dating was very useful for me.
By the end of that period, I had lots of experience with asking women out and lots of experience going on first dates. When I met an interesting woman at my church, I was calm and confident when I asked her out. On the first date, I was relaxed and able to be myself.
We dated for 4 1/2 months.
That experience also helped me be confident and relaxed when I met my current girlfriend (while out dancing). Our first date was about a month ago.
Andrew Hunt (#20) said:
“I sometimes dont get why confident people are online. They are capable enough to meet someone for real in a club or something.”
People who hang out in bars and clubs have one thing in common … they like to drink. For many of us, it’s not an ideal place to meet someone.
Obviously I have several offline options for meeting women. However, few places or activities provide access to a limitless supply of interesting women. Should I have a dry spell where I’m not encountering any new women, I can always turn to online dating to introduce me to women that I’d never run across through my normal daily activities.
A-L 38
I have to disagree with Juju and Scott here about the importance of the photo in online dating. Granted, if I find the picture repulsive, then there’s no way anything in the profile is going to help. With that exception noted, however, the #1 thing that draws me to a guy’s profile is what he actually writes. If your profile is funny or interesting and doesn’t just say the same stupid stuff as everyone else’s (I like watching tv, sports, working out and am looking for an attractive woman who takes care of her body to have some fun with…) then I am totally interested. These are the guys who I will initiate contact with rather than waiting for them to contact me, because they’re RARE! And unless they look totally repusive, it makes no difference whatsoever what they look like.
Now if you have the same bland profile as everyone else, then the picture, height, weight, income, etc are all that you CAN be judged on. So, though I receive no kickbacks from Evan or anyone else, I agree with him that online dating can work, and the biggest key for me is writing a good profile (the it also helps to have good pictures, even if you’re no 10, for those who are more visually oriented).
wu 39
Internet dating trades on the superficial – a photo a profile nothing else. If you read women’s profiles very careful 99% are looking for the same thing, and they have been brainwashed by the superficial society we now live in. Every man is looking for a blond supermodel, every woman for a Brad Pitt lookalike. Thats why there are so many older single women about now – and increasing all of the time. How on earth did people find partners before internet dating Evan?!!! Stick to the tried and trusted and safer way, get out there and meet people instead of spending hours in computerland living a fantasy.
Eden 40
I don’t know if I’m just looking for a solution to my problem but this post is really good. I’m in love with 2 persons I met online and I’m not really sure if what I’m doing right now is good or not. One thing I’m sure though, that we don’t meet people by chance. So….whether it’s online or not, I’d still give my best to know people I meet.
hunter 41
on post #40
I tell all single men, “Leave nothing to chance.”
Stella 42
Dating is just plain hard work. It was the first time around and for those who havent been so lucky, even harder the second time. As an attractive, successful, divorced woman with an eight year old child, dating is alot of work. And yes, dating off of match or eHarmony is a little embarrassing when you are among your married friends who dont remember dating when a kegger wasnt involved. But if it did not work, it would not be so popular.
I routinely take stock of what it is that I want. Is it wanting too much, are my goals too lofty? It would be easy to compromise on the important stuff just to say I am with someone. But doing so is not fair to who I am as a person. I have alot to offer the right person and I truely hope that some day in the not too distant future I do stumble upon Mr. Right. I know the only way that will happen is to put myself out there – which most likely will be through a dating website. I am certain that I will amass a tome of laughable dating stories along the way. But some day it will happen.
As far as what is important in an on-line profile – lets be honest. You can write like Hemmingway, but if the person reading it does not find you physically attractive in the least bit, you are doomed to failure. We are all human – and yes, some people get better looking as you get to know them and some get worse, but having some place to start off with looks wise, is very important. Being afraid to post your picture means you are not comfortable with yourself. Cant find love unless you love yourself first.
And Scott – very cute!
Stella
hunter 43
Yes, when a woman warms up to a man, the man gets better looking….when a woman, is done with a man, when she no longer wants him, the man is unattractive/ugly…..
Selena 44
Hunter, re:#43
Yes I’ve found that to be true. And most often it is because the man has DONE something(s) that were unattractive/ugly.
I will postulate that the same works for men regarding women as well.
hunter 45
on post #44
I am not so sure men say the same, after breaking up. I have heard men say how much they miss their former girlfriends “D”-cups……LOL!…
Selena 46
Re#45
Yeah, hunter I think you’re right again. When men breakup with a woman they were attracted to they are less likely to dispage her looks. More likely to describe her as a “crazy bitch”.
Leighann 47
I just stumbled upon this site and have been reading the very interesting posts. I am completely new here, but not new in the least to online dating. So here is my .02: Give it an honest try and be willing to put yourself at risk. You’ll find a 100 duds (relationship wise since everyone has value) both men and women, but it is that 101 that could be “the one” or just end up a darn good person to know. Stop bitching about all the negative, it is way too easy and so unproductive. Evan is right, if you don’t want to end up dying alone without sharing all the decent things in your life with someone you’ve connected to, then get up when the horse throws you, dust yourself off, and try it again (it gets easier btw).
My preference is chat, but I am on eharm too. I’ve had 2 serious relationships come from online, one I am still in now. Without being online, I doubt we would have found each other, no, I know we wouldn’t have. My life is so hectic that I don’t always find the time for me to get out and be social, 2 jobs, blah, blah, blah…Pretty much like everyone these days who doesn’t want to hang out at a bar, or a gym, or a church social, or worse have your family try hooking you up.
Pictures are weird, superficial, but so is the world, no getting around it, so deal with it. Just try and do the best you can. I’m not special, so I can pretty much believe if I am like this, so are most people. Someone is going to find you attractive not just by a picture but by what you have to say. Example: No, he’s not really getting my attention..read, read, read..but heck what a funny guy, oh wait, look at that smile, it’s kinda nice, and he dresses well (neat ,clean, trendy, sporty, laid back etc.)..read, read, read..we like the same books, and I love Scrabble,…those ears are kinda cute.. getting the picture here people, not everyone is superficial, in fact MOST are not.
Connections are based on a zillion different things; some it’s the ability to provide, hence the people who want to know what you do and what you make. It is in our genetic makeup both men and women. But it also can be just finding out about the other person, and ice breaker, and way to get talking. Personally, humor and conversation do it for me (and a good cowlick), and because I am happily dating a starving artist, I feel I can say this. Neither of us are “pretty people”, we’re not “alike” and it was our differences that we found intrigueing and gave us so much growth potential. It’s been a year of conversation ( no rush and I’m no spring chicken nor am I nervous about a faster meet up, we live 10,000 miles a part), and we’re finally going to meet face to face, no web cam, no pics, no phone, and we have high hopes. If it doesn’t work, I’ll cry for a week, get my shit together and begin to look again with not one regret, and I’ll have a good friend. AND it will be online, though I am not against finding someone in my own backyard.
Just take it for what it is, another way to connect. It works for some, not for others but don’t go knocking it for everyone. I hope you all connect someday, I hope mine works, there are billions of people on this planet, its a damn shame there is any loneliness at all.
JuJu 48
It’s amazing how similar everyone’s experiences with online dating are (and I am at least 10-15 years younger and childless). Men who lie about their height, emotionally unavailable or unstable men, freaks with gross houses, – I encountered all that, too. It’s SO HARD not to become bitter, but that’s the only way.
JuJu 49
Why was the link I posted edited out? My post doesn’t make sense without it.
JB 50
JuJu forgot to tell you about the women that lie about their weight or only put up “head shots” so you can’t see they’re actually obese or that they put “average” for their weight and then you come to find out that average means 215 lbs …lol Yes,I’ve encountered all that as well as women that lie about their AGE too ! Recently I met a woman on Yahoo and actually “hit it off” Let’s see if we can make it to the 2 month mark ?? ….LOL
Stella 51
JB,
For every woman who has lied about her weight, there are two guys who lied about either their height, weight, amount of hair existing on their head or level of interest in a committment (read – just looking for sex). Lets face it, honesty is not humanities strong suit.
The good thing is, just like learning to read the want-ads for a used car, you become pretty savvy to those folks who are not all on the up and up. Too bad there is not a “lemon law” for bad dates!
Stella
monica yeto 52
thank you for sharing this because i totally agree to everything u said. i met my soul mate online. my bestfriend. love of my life. i cant live without him. he is my other half. i never expected it but it did happen. we found each other. i believe that we should be open minded to these things since we are in the information age. we cant deny the fact that its part our lives now. meeting someone online is not impossible. remember all love stories are unique. if become so critical about it, nothing will eve happen. i decided to take this risk, knowing that i might get hurt because we r distant (he is in the US army by the way). i have to admit it is painful but its fine. i love him and knowing that i do so much, we can never deny it no matter how much we cover our emotions…we will get hurt bec we open ourselves up. we become vulnerable. im not scared to open myself up because when u love, give or receive love…pain is part of it. the saying goes “its better to have love n lost than to never have loved at all.” its true. my love for him is stronger. learn to compromise. be considerate. more understanding. invest in that relationship. its hard work but its worth it.
Karl R 53
Stella (#51) said:
“For every woman who has lied about her weight, there are two guys who lied about either their height, weight, amount of hair existing on their head or level of interest in a committment”
Stella, how do you arrive at this figure? Do you date both women and men? Since I date only women, I have no basis for comparison as to how honest or dishonest the men are.
“Too bad there is not a ‘lemon law’ for bad dates!”
There is. It’s called “No second date.”
Mike X 54
Yes, there are men who lie about stuff. A lot of them. And there are a lot of creeps out there who will copy and paste the same email to 50 women, or will write nasty first emails to women and completely turn them off. Unfortunately, that makes it that much harder for honest, normal guys to make an impression on a woman, or even get our emails to be read.
I think Evan has touched on this many times: Because online dating allows you to be SO PICKY about every single aspect of your perfect match, people use those measures to screen out all their matches to find who they think is perfect. And of course, if you think someone is perfect, then so do 100 other people, and that perfect person just gets bombarded by email.
I think that on these sites, there is a LOT of mail being exchanged between a FEW people. You know the Pareto principle? Where 80% of activity is from 20% of participants? I’d guess that on sites like match (which is the dating site the “beautiful people”), 90% of email exchange is between 10% of the users. These are the HOT women and HOT men who get lots and lots of emails. If you are not HOT, be prepared for a lot of disappointment.
Notice I said email “exchange,” implying a back and forth. I know that women (hot or not) get lots of emails, but a lot of those emails are from guys they are not interested in. And average guys like me? Well, we don’t get anything.
I’m 5’11, 170, athletic, grad school educated, with plenty of clear photos, and a profile written in the style of Evan’s first book – humorous, with plenty of information about me. I am a nonsmoker, no baggage, good salary, etc. Every email I write is customized, yet my response rate is one out of 40 if I’m lucky. I don’t only write to the hot model girls, either.
I tell this to women not to have their pity, but just to let them know that no matter how hard they think online dating is, they should be thankful that they are not male.
Stella 55
Ah, Karl. Not to disappoint, but I only date men. I do, however, have many guy friends who have told me of their dating woes – for every one of their stories, I seem to have at least two.
And Mike X – everything you have said is correct about on line dating. We do set high, almost unrealistic expectations of our future “dates” making it hard to find that perfect someone. I certainly have learned that lesson – told by one of my guy friends that I followed the 6-6-6 rule, and how was I ever going to find the right guy if I measure everyone by that standard. I have since broken myself of that rule (somewhat) and have met someone that is so not my “typical” date, but who is the perfect compliment to me and I am loving it!
hunter 56
on post #55
I have heard women get into relationships, once they start seeing, a not so “typical” date.
JB 57
Mike X is correct. Most women have never been “a guy online” average looking or gorgeous to see how ridiculous it all is. Average looking women won’t respond to average looking men. Just like Evan says noone thinks THEY are average. I think more men are willing to “take what they can get” as opposed to women that are “3′s” thinking they’re gonna get that 1 guy that’s a “10″. I have been EVERYONE online including the “average” guy that I AM. It’s a fascinating study to watch what happens to different types of profiles…sometimes funny but mostly very sad. But hey ….even the “average” get lucky sometimes …..
hunter 58
to Mike X on post #54
Try rewriting your profile, until you get results.
Stay away from the “beautiful people,” (they get hit on many times a day, and receive 100′s of e-mails) until, you get really good at dating.
A-L 59
Here are two recent e-mails guys sent me on match.com:
want to talk (thats the entirety of the message)
Hi u doing love my name is cleveland and im 5 10 light hazel brown eyes medium build about 180 im looking for a real realationship i hope u give me a chance im a good man i dont a picture yet but i would love to send u one my number 504xxxxxxx i hope u call
I dont care how elitist Im being, Im not responding to those messages no matter what the guy looks like, how much he earns, etc. Unfortunately, 90-95% of the e-mails I receive are like this. And here is one of the better ones Ive received lately:
i see you have alot goin on i to have rocs i raise them an bull mastiffs i have had the chance to travel alot i really loved it. u r so diverse it would take me a day to relay all ur xperiances to mine but i do find u intrestin an i would love to know more about you what part of new orleans ur from what college u graduated from. whats ur favorite quick meal. what type of work u do. At least hes read my profile. But is it really that hard to spell out words correctly and use standard English? Am I really asking for that much?
But I think Mike X is right about 10% of the people on Match doing 90% of the communication. Eda and I had a discussion on a different thread whereby we discussed how race is a big factor in the (low) number of hits we get. Im 28, college-educated, moderately attractive, have an interesting profile, clear photos (head and full-body) that I tell everyone were taken in the last 10 months. I’m supposed to be at my peak of dating desireability and the garbage above is mostly what I receive. And when I initiate e-mails with guys, my response rate isnt that great. So I think online dating is hard for everybody except for the supermodels.
Stella 60
But isnt that what makes this whole thing amusing? Emails from the bull mastiff breeder.
I think it is funny that all the guys on this think that the girls have the upper hand – and I would beg to guess that the girls think it is the boys that are troublesome.
I was always amazed at how many guys emailed me pictures of their motorcycles and thought I was going to be game for a date. My profile could not be more conservative and waspy and I get Harleys – who cant spell and like to hunt.
Mike X 61
Hunter – The thing is, over the past few years, my profile has gone through several iterations of re-writes, sometimes small tweaks and sometimes complete overhauls. The results are pretty much the same. I will say that I did have slightly better success (maybe 1 response out of 20 emails) when I lived in NYC, where the M/F ratio was in my favor.
A-L: I’m sure that many women are receiving emails similar to yours…so that’s why it’s that much more disappointing when my emails continue to go unanswered. And yes, I think race does play a big role – I’m Asian and as we all know from an article that Evan wrote earlier, Asian men have a huge disadvantage when it comes to dating. Glad I’m not short.
http://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/dating-advice-for-short-men-life-is-unfair/
I got an email today on OKCupid.com from a woman complaining that chemistry.com is “a lot of work.” Ha ha. Maybe I should refer her to the end of my post #54…but then she’d think I’d bitter
I actually like sites like chemistry and eharmony because for regular guys (ie not supermodels), it’s SO MUCH LESS WORK than “traditional” sites like match.com.
Lila 62
I met a guy online and we were together for almost 2 years and we are still friends. It wasn’t a dating site but still, it made me think that maybe my chances of meeting someone through internet dating websites might actually be better because, even though the prior relationship didn’t work out, it still lasted 2 years. I could quickly cut to the chase and narrow it down to the best possibilities.
All I have to say is it’s been 2.5 months and what a pain in the ass. I did meet one great guy but then he admitted that he’d lied about his marital status! Not to mention, the financial mess he was in and he couldn’t even bring a date home.
Then there was the guy with nothing but tattoos and a mouthful of rotting teeth, who really needs to get laid. Of course all the photos were with his mouth closed and he wanted to make sure that I was really the person in the photo, because he had been fooled before by women were really dogs.
Then there was the 21 year old hottie who might make a decent booty call. A truly good looking guy whom I had coffee with and then was supposed to go to a party with. I actually considered going, even though I am 30 but after hanging out with his buddies and listening to them talk “how drunk they got” for about 3 hours, it was time to go. Some of them were also underage.
I know there are people out there who have been lucky but I think that after my membership expires, that I am done with it. I have to admit that I am not a big fan of it. Plenty of potentials, plenty of emails, but I am starting to believe that maybe meeting someone is something that has to come naturally. Not to mention, I can’t handle all the “weeding out”, it takes way to much time.
I think the internet would be a great way to hook up booty calls but that’s about it.
Lila 63
Stella…
I get the same thing! I tell guys I like to go hiking, which I do. “Oh I’ll send you great pics I took, out in the forest the other day.”
The pics are usually mostly bikes, jeeps, trucks or the men standing there with rifles in their hands and ready to go find something to kill. Only once did I get pics of nice scenery.
Men don’t need to prove how manly they are by showing off there hardware and motors. Lol.. but I have to admit it’s pretty funny and severely symbolic of the differences between men and women.
JuJu 64
What’s a 6-6-6 rule?
Kenley 65
I actually don’t think it’s the case that average people don’t respond to average people per se. I think it’s people won’t respond to people they don’t think are attractive. And, I think average people can be attractive or at least have qualities that are attractive — great eyes, smile, etc.
qazarly 66
I think we now have enough information to show what is happening and where the problem lies.
Firstly men using online dating outnumber women. The younger the men the worse the ratio, but for older men a quick look at Match shows about 150 men for 100 women. Good start for women.
But Freakonomics data shows that 25% of women get no email from men. Ouch, even with substantially more prospects 1 in 4 women do not make the grade. They may be the ones complaining the men want supermodels, in reality the top 75% of women.
That leaves 150 men chasing 75 women, or a ratio now of 2 to 1. The men all send lots of emails, and 60% of them get no response whatsoever. So the “frogs” of the dating world are also out in the cold – all 90 of them, but we still have 60 of them left chasing 75 of the women.
Surely the women will accept these men – not a bit of it !
The freakonomics data shows that unlike men who will attempt communication with the opposite sex in proportion to the level of attractiveness, women do not show this linear response, they pretty much only respond to the most attractive men with the top 5% getting most of the traffic.
There is now hardly any men left in the game. To be generous here – at best we now have 80% of the remaining women 60 out of 75 chasing only 20% of the men or 12 out of 60.
We have 48 men getting a small response from the 15 women who statistically must be in the bottom 40% in level of attractiveness (the 48 men are all in the top 40%). These men probably are not impressed with this outcome !
The top 12 (8%) of the men now have their pick of the 60 remaining women. Of course these women will probably not be too impressed by their success rate, and are probably wondering why the men they desire show no desire to commit.
The remaining last statistic that we have is that 90% of men give up online dating in the first 3 months, and that seems to make perfect sense given the above.
Conclusion – if people follow their biological programing very few of either sex will have any success
Cilla 67
qazarly,
The statistical accuracy of your theory notwithstanding, I think you’re correct in your assumption that many women reject men based on their “attractiveness.” But let’s look at what attractiveness might mean. To me, it’s not just the face or the body in the picture, it’s whether or not the man looks put together. Did he take time to pose for and select an appealing (and accurate) photo of himself? Can I see his face, or is the shot taken from too far away? Is it blurry or too pixelated? Is he wearing a baseball cap and sunglasses in all his pics? Is he wearing a paint ball mask, a hockey mask, field camouflage, or eye black (yup, seen ‘em all). In all his photos is he dressed in schlubby clothes (sweats, torn jeans, etc.)? Is he clean shaven (if not sporting a neatly trimmed beard) and is his hair combed or styled? Does his house look like a complete mess in the background? (I’ve seen a few that could qualify for an Oprah episode.)
Once I move past the photo, I look at the profile–it’s all part of the attractiveness package, so to speak. Is his profile well written, with a minimum of typos? Is it written in all caps or text message lingo? Is it too overtly sexual? Is it lacking in content that actually gives me some clue as to who this guy is? Is it a laundry list of what the man does NOT want in a mate?
I could go on and on. I don’t know if these issues are reflected in the women’s profiles as well, since I don’t read them. But if men want to avoid the instant rejection from my mailbox, they’d better start working on their overall attractiveness quotient. If they think their head shot can’t carry the profile, they should include a nice (but not overly naked) body shot, if that’s their selling point. How about a photo in a suit and tie (not with an ex-girlfriend or someone’s wedding party cropped out)? If you’re not a suit guy, how about a nice sweater? And for heaven’s sake, get rid of the beer bottles, bongs, cigarettes, and crazy party paraphernalia–I don’t need to see your last Halloween or Mardi Gras costume, or that you “gotta support the team” by painting your chest blue for every home football game.
JuJu 68
The freakonomics data shows that unlike men who will attempt communication with the opposite sex in proportion to the level of attractiveness, women do not show this linear response, they pretty much only respond to the most attractive men with the top 5% getting most of the traffic.
I don’t think this is true.
I, for one, can tell if a man is “out of my league”, so to speak, and most likely won’t even bother with him.
Also, judging from some of the men who see it fit to reply to me (and other women I’ve seen and spoken to), I would think it’s the men who are way more deluded about their chances.
A-L 69
Cilla’s description of what women find attractive is dead on. Unfortunately, the vast majority of men online don’t meet this requirement, and I’m rather lax about some of the physique ones.
In terms of the numbers of people online, at the end of the “Would Your Rather Spend 20 Minutes on the Phone…” thread (http://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/would-you-rather-spend-20-minutes-on-the-phone-discovering-your-date%E2%80%99s-a-loser/) Karl R and I started looking at some of the data of men and women on Match.com. Here is what we found:
38 year olds within 5 miles of the heart of Houston: 70 men, 46 women. That’s 60.3% male, 39.7% female.
28 years old within 5 miles of the heart of New Orleans: 17 men, 14 women. Thats 55% male, 45% female.
26-40 years old within 5 miles of the heart of New Orleans: 232 men, 164 women. Thats 59% men, 41% women.
26-40 years old within 25 miles of the heart of New Orleans: 445 men, 329 women. Thats 57% men, 43% women.
Just wanted to provide a little numerical perspective on the question of does online dating even work.
qazarly 70
Cilla, I quite agree that the studies done show that women look at the “package”. They want men who are tall, handsome, confident, intelligent, high status, wealthy etc. Men want women who are hot and ….well thats it.
Ju Ju, studies of speed dating shows indeed that women will make an assessment of their own level of attractiveness when they pick the men and they go for the best they think that they can get. Men just go for the hot women. But even the least attractive woman will only pick a small number of men and will set the bar as high as they can. Men choose lots of women and set the bar low.
One study showed (video on the net!) that personality had no effect at all, as long as the men were tall they could talk complete gibberish and they would still get chosen.
There is no blame here, our brains are hard wired to act in this way. Men are looking for young fertile women, and women are looking for strong providers with the best DNA.
However women choose men, they hold all the cards. Only they are in a position to change the stalemate by saying yes instead of no.
Mike X 71
Here is something that puzzles me about online dating (and real life dating, I guess).
I can understand how women have the complete upper hand when they are in their 20s. They get dozens of emails a day and can reject guys left and right.
My theory was that when I got to my early 30s (I’m 32), the power would shift toward men. Makes logical sense, right? Many women start to feel a little worried when they are in their 30s and still single. They might relax their screening criteria more when they realize that the 6’2″ multilingual, HOT doctor who pulls in $250k/yr doesn’t exist in real life. Or if he does, he’s too busy being a playboy to settle down.
However, I don’t find that getting email responses is any easier for me from 30-33 yr old women as it is from 26-29 year old women. It’s still really hard. And the under 26 crowd still completely ignores me…haha.
Do I have to wait till I’m in my late 30′s to really see the shift? I don’t want to end up being a cougar hunter. Purrrr…
Cilla 72
qazarly,
I think you misinterpreted my point. Yes, women look at the total package, but I did not mention anything about wealth or status when I referenced my “attractiveness quotient.” I’m sure there are some women who look for these attributes, but I was talking about the first impressions a man makes in his profile–the style that is manifested before the substance can be uncovered, if you will. I would consider wealth or status to be a second layer that a woman uncovers only after a man has met the initial attractiveness criteria as discussed in my PP. A woman has to get past the grainy picture of the disheveled guy in sweats to discover he’s a multimillionaire.
This whole “study” about how tall men are preferable regardless of their personalities or intellects is questionable. All things being equal, perhaps women will initially choose a taller man. But height doesn’t exist in a vacuum, and most women will factor in other qualities after a few minutes of evaluation. I know personally I get lots of email contacts from men who are attractive and tall. Once I read their profiles and see how vapid some of their ramblings are, I delete. I’m currently dating and corresponding with a few men in hopes of finding one person for a LTR. One of the top contenders is 5’6″, based on his quick wit, style and general joie de vivre. I realize this is anecdotal, but I do know other women who feel the same way.
I believe the hardwired DNA theory is changing as environmental influences are beginning to trump nature. Both men’s and women’s perceptions of what is desirable in a mate are being challenged by media images that have no bearing on fertility or perpetuation of the species. If men were looking for the best biological partner to ensure the continuation of their DNA, they would choose women with the largest waist to hip ratios (proven to be associated with both fertility and longevity). Instead, the current trend is toward slender women with narrow hips and boyish figures. Just read some of the discussions here and on other sites regarding preferences for “athletic” or “slender” women–Maxim aesthetic, yes. Fertility? No way. And you contradict yourself: if women were looking for the best providers, they would be looking at big men who could “hunt” for them. Wealth or status wouldn’t even be a factor. To my knowledge, our DNA has yet to evolve to contain a code for mating based on bank accounts.
As far as women holding all the cards goes, I agree to a point. In the cyber world the odds are stacked in favor of women. However, once that first contact has been made, the control goes to men. Take a look at Evan’s latest post “The Most Important Dating Advice You’ll Ever Hear” and you’ll see what I mean.
JuJu 73
Mike,
I don’t think you are correct to expect a shift, at any age. In the animal world, the female chooses. She is only limited, obviously, by the selection of men available to her.
And if anything, you should have gotten more responses in your 20′s from women your age, since not as many of them are looking to settle down.
But the main phenomenon responsible for that behavior is that women’s standards do not go down over time (or due to circumstances – you must have observed an overweight (or whatever) woman feeling entitled to an attractive mate, no?). A woman can wait her entire life for a “prince”. This is something I remember reading in some scientific article.
Cilla 74
Mike X,
Just got an unsolicited email from a 32-year-old (very hot). I’m 47. What’s wrong with being a cougar hunter? LOL
Seriously, I think there are more subtle demographic divisions among both sexes than we acknowledge. It’s been my contention for a while that women under a certain age (probably around 26) are still partying, looking for fun, not thinking long-term or about having kids. That shifts as women approach 30 and becomes urgent for women approaching 40, assuming they are still childless and want children. There is another demographic group of women who have had children (or don’t want them) and are in their 30′s and 40′s. They are looking for different things in a relationship and may have a broader set of criteria for men. The same divisions apply to men, although their urgency to reproduce is obviously not driven by a biological clock. To lump everyone from the same age group together doesn’t make sense.
Now, let’s complicate that scenario by assuming that as women age they may become more, not less, picky about their potential mates, even though statistics say this works against them. And men who have, say, been put through the ringer in divorce become pickier about finding their next mates, as well. Add having kids, or wanting kids, and things like geographic location, etc., and you have a complex situation that resists any kind of formula or algorithm for finding the perfect match.
What I’m saying is: there is no magic equation for setting up your search criteria, no guarantees that just because you are of a certain age, women from a corresponding age group will be interested in you. I personally find very few men from my own age group interested in me; they are almost always 5-15 years younger or 5-10 years older. My theory is that the 45-year-old male is the equivalent of the 30-year-old female in terms of stringency of the selection process.
You can set a very broad set of parameters and within that, look at each person individually. (Remember? Well, you probably don’t, since you’re so young, but people used to do that back in the day, before this whole Internet dating thing came along.) You can use statistics to fuel your search, but remember that this is life, not a math problem. At 32, the world should be your oyster.
JB 75
To Mike X……You’ll NEVER see a shift. Trust me I’m 48. Late 30′s,40′s 50′s ??? Forget it. Possibly in your 70′s because I hear there’s 4 women for every man ….LOL
Most of you on here have never put up “test” profiles to actually see what really goes on. If all you’ve ever been is yourself online you can’t possibly understand the REALITY of online dating. I’ve been 40 different people online,all shapes,sizes,ages and attractiveness,male & female(straight only for both…lol) <–(I’m sure being gay opens up a whole different can of worms)
It taught me so much because you actually see 99% of what you’re missing coming from only 1 point of reference. It was very enlightening and disheartening at the same time. Remember knowledge is power.
Joe 76
JB, would you mind sharing your discoveries?
qazarly 77
Cilla, I am not contradicting myself because I am not bringing to the discussion personal anecdotal ‘evidence’, but the results of studies conducted by scientists applying rigorous scientific methodology. I don’t think my opinion, based on personal experience is worth much in comparison.
In some cases these studies are showing the results of many thousands of dating interactions, and the different studies are for the most part supporting conclusions of other studies.
Interestingly when women are interviewed on what they are looking for in a mate that doesnt always seem to bear any relation to what they ACTUALLY go for.
Women are experts at picking up clues on wealth and status just based on looks, and in speed dating will have rejected or accept the guy in the time it takes him to sit down.
Wealth is power of course which is the thing that attracts. Alpha males are few in number, but women will seek them out regardless of age. Men in their 80s will still desire the 25 year old.
Our brains do not change – our rate of success does.
I am also interested in JBs discoveries, but my guess it will follow the result of the studies.
Men will send lots of email to attractive women regardless of their own status ,wealth or age. Women will reject all men who are short or poor or pretty much anyone who isnt physically attractive and/or wealthy.
JB 78
Well without boring everyone with a long drawn out post. My discovery of no matter what a guys profile says as long as it’s generic,harmless etc… and he has 2 or 3 very good looking (top 5%) pics he will get not only the most attractive women(8-10′s)which is expected but also a ton of 3′s -7′s who I can assure you have never dated anyone that looks like these guys. Now when these 3′s -7′s don’t hear from the attractive guy they won’t email ANY men who are in the 5-8 range. All of these profiles were basically the same stats EXCEPT attractiveness. So none of that is a real shock because as we all know on this blog everyone thinks of themselves as much higher. I know men do the same thing they email women way out of their league but I also think that men email more women in their league and below just because if we can’t get what we want we’ll take what we can get. What I found interesting is that when I put an attractive woman’s profile up in the same area and age range that I’m in(to see my competition so to speak as well as see who’s exactly emailing the women I email.)Their wasn’t 2 who I would email back if I was her. Leading me to wonder WHO are some of these women emailing and dating ??? Do they just come on to “window shop ?” Be validated on a daily basis ?? ie:.. “Wow you’re hot,can I take you out to dinner.We have so much in common”….LOL Possibly the “waiting for Prince Charming” syndrome ??? I’m sure all of the above. Oh and I love when a woman emails you and tells you with the “Thanks, but I’ve just met someone and want to see what develops” and then I wink at them with one of the “hottie” profiles and suddenly they’re single and available …lol Really ladies if you’re not interested ignore us & delete us we’re used to it ! Being that I consider myself a 5 or a 6 I probably do better than 90% of the guys online where as I think a very large percentage of men not only NEVER get a date they NEVER even get response. As I read most men’s profiles I feel sorry for them. They’re not only delusional but clueless. The women will always have the upper hand online but when you’re over 40 it’s online dating or bust. Their really are no other choices so you better be good at it.
Mike X 79
JB,
Thanks for sharing your insight. There is a dating coach out there who has claimed to have done the same thing as you (he also claims to have dated 398 women in four years) but I don’t trust a thing he says, because I’ve tried his methods and they don’t work.
Anyhow, you said “I put an attractive womans profile up in the same area and age range that Im in [....] Their wasnt 2 who I would email back if I was her.”
Why? Did the responses all come from ugly guys? Was their grammar horrendous? dId thEy RiTe LikE diS?
JuJu 80
I think I may have mentioned it in another thread, but I remember reading in some scientific article that personal ads (of any kind, including internet) are primarily used by omega men, and are a rather hopeless resource for alpha women.
JB 81
Well Mike the truth is and I’m sure the women will back me up on this.There’s just an abundance of badly written boring,generic profiles with badly taken photo’s of average to unattractive men out there. There’s an equal amount of bad women’s profile’s it’s just they all ignore each other. You know what always shocks me the most ? When I see people that advertise they have a college degree and they can’t string 5 sentences together to make a coherent profile ! …LOL
I know all about dating coach Dave M and I don’t use what he teaches but I’m sure it may work better for very attractive guys unfortunately that leaves average guys out.
qazarly 82
The statistics I have shown above indicate that the key problem is that women are only interested in the very top of the scale. They do not realise just how selective they are. To them men of 6ft are plentiful – in reality only 15% of the population at best.
Most women online wouldn’t give a guy with the national average salary a second look. 50% of men will earn less than this average.
If only 5% have the right income, and 5% have the right looks, and 15% have the right height, and 10% have the right intelligence then it follows that women will be perfectly happy with one man in 30,000 and half of them will suffer from substantial hair loss !
JuJu 83
That scientific work I keep referring to (it’s not actually an article, but a book on the mating behavior of humans) mentioned that if it were socially acceptable, and economically feasible, and psychologically desirable, women would mimic the mating preferences of sea lions, in the natural habitat of which 4% of the males impregnate 88% of the females.
JuJu 84
I sincerely thank you, qazarly. This has been most enlightening and eye-opening.
If you have any more pertinent info, keep it coming.
Kenley 85
I found this quotation below and while it’s written from the male perspective, I think it applies to women too…
I was looking for the perfect woman and I found her. Alas, all did not end well because she was looking for the perfect man!
The problem with online dating is people think they can find perfection and my other favorite quotation is you don’t have to be perfect to be wonderful. Wish more people would remember that!
Kenley 86
In post #85 what I really meant is that I wish more people actually believed that the right person doesn’t have to be perfect to be wonderful. The pursuit of perfection is what keeps most people unattached.
Qazarly,
While statistics are useful and important overall, they don’t really matter much when your personal experience is so vastly different. And my personal experience as an average woman seeking a connection on-line is that not a whole bunch of men are seeking average women either. The whole photo thing, which is what most men and lots of women use as the first hurdle, doesn’t take into account the animal attraction that you can have with a person that defies explanation as well as your image of what is attractive about a man. I know the most potent attraction I had was with someone with whom I didn’t even think was handsome. Yet, we both shared an instant and magnetic charge that neither of us could resist. If I had seen a picture of him, I would have dismissed him without a second thought. Somestimes chemistry is not what you expect, but online dating rarely lets you get to it because most of us rely too heavily on photos to weed people in or out of our consideration set.
But, I do remember there was one time when a guy’s profile was so compelling to me that I ignored his photo and decided to meet him. In that instance, he looked about a million times better than his photo and I experienced that red hot, instant, and mutual attraction with him. I was literally giddy after meeting him. Unfortunately, he was only interested in a casual relationship so we never made it to date two. But, the lesson I learned once again is that photos don’t always tell the whole story…sometimes they do, but not always. So, I try to give guys a chance even if their photos don’t make my heart skip a beat. Yet, I know very, very, few guys who will go out with a woman if they don’t find her physically attractive…that’s just been my personal experience. Or if they do go out with a woman they don’t find all that attractive, they let her know that they are settling, and who wants to be told — hey, you’re not what I really want, but you’re all I can get?
JuJu 87
Or if they do go out with a woman they dont find all that attractive, they let her know that they are settling, and who wants to be told hey, youre not what I really want, but youre all I can get?
Wow, people really do that?!?
That is some astounding lack of class.
In this case, you don’t need the guy not just because he isn’t all that attracted to you, but simply because he is an ass.
This is a truly ugly person.
Jason 88
When i found out about Internet dating about eight years ago i thought it was going to be the answer to my dating prayers.Im considered good looking by some of my friends,so all i had to do, i thought was put my photo online sit back and wait for dozens of emails from sexy women to come rolling in.
OH OH !!
No Replies after sending out ten emails,then twenty emails then thirty emails!
What the hell is going on here?
I was thinking was it my photo? or did i came across as to rude(far from it)
I then starting looking for other mens Internet dating experiences and to my relief found this was normal for most men.
What i find amazing is some of the women in the 30s with the “waiting for the prince charming” sydrome.Im 38 and ive written to women in their mid-late 30s who you would think would be bitting your hand off to go on a date due to their options being less than they were in their 20s.
Not a bit of it i would get the “sorry your not my type” or you would see they have looked at your profile and dont even write back.I dip in and out of Internet date because its so frustrating and disheartning if your a bloke.
The other thing that grates me is if i chatted this women up in a bar or the street im sure they would be receptive and i would be able to get thier phone numbers,You cant convey sexual chemistry on the interent,and thats a big part of attraction.
Jason
Kenley 89
Jason,
From what I’ve heard, I don’t think you would actually like a woman who was biting her hand off to go on a date you with you — she would ooze desperation and most men don’t think desperation is attractive jewelery on a woman. The other thing is that your assumption that these women have less options than they did in their 20s may not be true. If these women weren’t on the internet in their 20s, it may actually feel like they have way more options than they did when they were younger because they are getting hundreds of emails a week. In the real world, I don’t think many women get hit on by hundreds of men in a week. So relative to the 20 somethings she’s competing with today, the mid-late 30 year old has fewer guys trying to woo her, but relative to her younger self, she may actually be overwhelmed.
Joe 90
qazarly (#82), that is not quite inaccurate. 50% of men earn the median–not the average–salary or less.
Glenda 91
Joe–Actually, half of the men do not EARN the median salary; rather, the median salary is that number where half the population falls above and half falls below. And it’s used as a more accurate number than the average qazarly quoted, since it’s not affected by extreme outliers, such as multi-billionaires, who would skew the average (or mean) salary upwards.
hunter 92
on post #89,
“she would ooze desperation”,,,,,I like the phrase….hhmmmhhh…
hunter 93
on post #86
Any man that tells a woman, he is settling, on account of not finding someone else, is asking to be dismissed/dropped/booted/bye-bye…..not all men know how to leave/exit/say this is not working out, some of us we just need a big boot up our bottom!!……
hunter 94
on post #80
JuJu,
Really? Are there lots and lots of Alpha women out there?……
hunter 95
To Cilla on post #74,
Sometimes I wish more women would become cougar hunters.(common practice all over Europe) This way, Women might be more at ease when going on a date with the man they really want.
JuJu 96
All I can say, Hunter, is that specifically _online_ I saw more quality women than I have men.
Cilla 97
Hunter,
I don’t get it. How can a woman become a cougar hunter? Do you mean you wish more women were comfortable dating younger men, i.e. being “cougars?” If that’s the case, I agree with you. I think everyone in general should be comfortable dating whomever they want, and society shouldn’t care. No one looks twice when a younger woman goes out with an older man. Maybe if women weren’t labeled “cougars,” however, they would be more comfortable. As long as a negative connotation is attached, some women will simply not date younger men.
For what it’s worth, I’ve dated 9 men, including 2 LTRs, since my divorce. One was four years older than me, two were two years older than me, and six were younger than me. The greatest age difference was 19 years younger than me. While I’m currently looking in a slighter narrower age range, I’d have no problem dating a significantly younger guy if he were sure he didn’t want children. I take constant flak from my friends and neighbors for it, and I have stopped defending myself. I just tell them I do what makes me happy, then turn the inquisition around to them and grill them about all the great decisions they’ve made in their love lives LOL. Believe me, that shuts them up fast!
starthrower68 98
You can pretty much answer this question with the title of another one of Evan’s posts: “Men look for sex and find love, women look for love and find sex”.
Michael 99
I dont think you would actually like a woman who was biting her hand off to go on a date you with you she would ooze desperation and most men dont think desperation is attractive jewelery on a woman.
Can desperation on her part be taken advantage of?
Karl R 100
Michael,
Let me turn your question around.
Let’s say a man was desperate to get into a long-term relationship. Perhaps he felt insecure about himself because all his peers were married or in long-term relationships. Lets say this man was desperate to get into a relationship so he could “measure up” to these peers.
Do you think it would be possible for a woman to take advantage of this man?
Would it be possible for a woman to date this man, while repeatedly cheating on him with other men, then get him to repeatedly “forgive” her, since his only choices would be to allow her cheating or be alone again?
Would it be possible for a woman to persuade this desperate man that he needed to spend beyond his means in order to win / keep her affections?
Would it be possible for the woman to bully the man into always doing things her way, since she could threaten to leave him if he ever stood up for himself?
I don’t believe men and women are that different. I think it is no more difficult to take advantage of a desperate woman than it is to take advantage of a desperate man.
I also believe it’s completely unethical to take advantage of someone who is desperate. But there are no shortage of unethical people (or desperate people) in the world.
Michael 101
It makes you wonder why desperate people can not find each other.
One could set up a dating website catering to desperate people, but then how would one filter out the kind of people whom you mentioned above?
JB 102
Desperate people can’t find each other online for the same reason that people that are 3′s,4′s and 5′s don’t email each other online and date each other. No one THINKS or realizes they’re desperate and no one thinks they’re a 3 or a 4 or a 5.
A great percentage of men & women online are delusional and unrealistic.
Joe 103
Yeah, but one person’s 3, 4 or 5 is another person’s 6, 7 or 8. :p
Michael 104
My biggest problem is finding something witty or funny to write.
Michael 105
I wonder why most people do not like Asians.
Michael 106
You may be right.
I noticed still-active profiles on my Favorites list that are at least two years old, and the women are somewhat good-looking.
Ugly Short Guy 107
Online dating doesn’t work because women don’t use the internet to actually meet and date men. Most women only use it to reinforce in themselves the notion that their prolonged single-status is NOT their fault, but instead because of the fact that there are simply “no good men to date.”
Here’s how it plays out: a women sets up an online dating profile. She immediately gets 200 messages. She ignores all those messages because there are just too many to handle and starts her own “search.” What she searches for are the tallest and hottest guys she can find, whom she messages right away. After not hearing back from those few guys (or getting replies and realizing they’re complete morons/jerks/losers) she gives up altogether, claiming “there were no good men to date online.”
However, if women would use online dating to find men who have common interests and good personalities, they might actually end up on some good dates. BUT, that’s not what women do. They only search for and contact tall and hot guys, then when those don’t pan out, they give up.
JB 108
Well they would say “why can’t I have a tall hot guy with common interests and good personality?” and we know the answer is because women that are 5′s don’t get or date men that are 9′s and 10′s and vice versa. Attraction works a lot different online than in real life because of all the so called “stats” you have on paper in front of you like income,occupation,residence,education etc……all of which matter to women a lot more than men.
And actually I’ve been several “tall hot guys” online and for the most part most of the most attractive women DO NOT initiate contact with them(for fear of rejection I would assume or because they feel they shouldn’t have to) but they will “look” at them a lot and let it be known that they’re “viewing” their profile basically saying “here I am,notice me !!!” in hopes of having the tall hottie initiate and show interest first. Mostly the tall hot guys only get initiated contact by the delusional obese 4 or 5 or the occasional “cougar” but seldom his equal. On occasion a woman who’s his equal might email or wink,it’s rare but it does happen. Yes,I’m sure the 9′s and 10′s on any given site get together……lol Just like in real life. No shock there.
Michael 109
For some women, all men are zeroes.
Anna 110
Online dating doesn’t work for most people. Out of a straw poll of 10 friends who have tried online dating, only one met someone online who they had a long-term (longer than six months) relationship.
The other 9 found that the people they met on dates 1) were a lot older or bigger than they claimed on their profile, 2) looked nothing like their online photo(s) or 3) were clearly after one thing only.
It’s a good idea but the reality is that the internet doesn’t provide solutions for every aspect of human life.
A-L 111
RE: Anna’s #110
A few questions
1. What percentage of these friends are male and what percentage are female?
2. What percentage of dates that you or your friends go on (that did not come from online dating) make it to 6+ months?
3. How many of these matches did you or your friends initiate vs how many of these dates were initiated by the other person?
Steve 112
I’ve been Internet dating for almost a year now, since my 10-year relationship tragically and stupidly broke up.
I’m unusually good-looking and fit, but I’m 52. I’ve encountered huge amounts of age discrimination. Most women don’t even include my age group in their searches because they assume that 50 = dead. Even though I can outmuscle most guys half my age.
I have had a few dates, a brief (one month) relationship, and I caught caught up in one embarrassing scam. All my experiences have been pretty bad. Many of the women I’ve met have lied about all sorts of things, or omitted important information. The one-month woman was patently crazy, very disturbed.
But the main reality is, there just isn’t much action for a guy my age on these websites. I don’t get responses to my nice, polite emails, and women rarely initiate contact with me, notwithstanding my “hardbody” and nice smile and solid, rational profiles.
I agree with Evan that online dating represents an opportunity, especially for rural farmboys like myself. But, although I persist in the search, I’m gradually abandoning hope. Looks like I’m going to have to learn to be more happy with just myself. I call this the “hermit option.”
My dad used to say, “There are worse things than being alone.” It’s oh so true. Nothing is worse than a nightmare relationship. Then, trust me, you pray for sweet loneliness.
Thank God for dogs.
Kristyn 113
@Steve
I am 39, almost 40. I’ve met online and dated men who were 25 – 51. I get emails and flirts from mostly younger guys (between 20 – 30). Ideally, though, I’d like someone closer to my age and am always thrilled when someone who is my age contacts me.
Really, 50 year old women think a man who is 52 is dead? Who do you think they are dating?
Ava 114
Steve #112
Are you contacting women in your own age range? As in 40-50′s? If you’re a good-looking, fit, nice guy, it’s hard for me to believe women aren’t interested. If women aren’t including your age in their searches, it must be because you’re contacting women under 40, and correct, most of them are looking for men closer to their own age.
Selena 115
@ Steve #112
Like Ava, I’m also curious about the age range of women you are contacting. Generally, women prefer men within their own generation. If you are writing to women 10 or more years younger than you, be aware of this.
Thatissue non-withstanding, I can guess being rural might be a factor. Simply less to choose from. A couple years ago I read of a site called farmers.com, I believe it was – you might try looking into a specialized site like that to meet women who live in/are interested in – living in the country opposed to those who are definite “city girls”.
I spend part of the year living in “Amish country” so to speak- so I know how difficult it can be to meet singles where there are sparse places to meet anyone period.
Steve 116
Thanks very much for your nice comments, Krystyn, Ava, and Selena.
Part of my difficulty is that I look, act, and feel like I’m 40 or even younger, not 52. But women closer to my age tend to look more like my mother. So I feel out-of-step with women in their 50s, and have indeed sought a younger match. But at least I’ve kept an open mind, and routinely include women in my age group in my searches.
Another part of the difficulty is that there seems to be a trend among women to prefer men younger than themselves. For example, a 40-year-old women might say she’s looking for a man 28-40. This reverses a longstanding tradition according to which the man is older than the woman.
I feel left out in the cold. I’ve been extending my searches to places like the Philippines, where more traditional values still apply. But dating someone overseas, esp. in a Third World country, poses huge challenges.
Rick 117
Women who end up online dating were not chosen in the real world. Any charming, good looking woman, with her life together has plenty of opportunities in the real world to be picked up. All she has to do is express a little interest and the guys will be calling. (Ya, ya, I know, some girls are just too busy to meet people in the real world…but then, what kind of relationship are you going to have with Miss too busy anyway). So, all the girls in the online dating pool are the ones passed over. They feel rejected. They put up their profiles and, all of a sudden, they are being chosen. And not by 1 guy, but by dozens wanting to meet them. So, its zero to hero for them in an instant. And it goes straight to their head. So, you have the instant ego boost combined with the issues that lead her to online dating in the first place. Not a good combination for any self respecting man to deal with. Thats why online dating sucks for guys. Quality women have no need to advertise.
Steve 118
Dating sucks period, Rick. But you make excellent points. However, I think that with so much shifting to “online” these days, online dating is more of the norm today than it was just a few years ago. So maybe it doesn’t just attract losers.
Still, what you wrote makes a lot of sense. By now, I have dated or at least communicated with several women I met online, and all of them had mental (and physical) issues I found hard to contemplate living with permanently.
As they say, there is someone for everyone, though, and I’ll just keep trying until I croak.
Rick 119
I wish you the best Steve. And, Inever wrotethat it was just ‘losers’ who online date. I actually have met some prettysuccessful women online dating. Buteven they were passed over in ‘the real world’for a reason, and itbecame apparent in short order. Even though it is more technologically acceptable to meet people this way than it was 10 yearsago, normal, attractive girls just don’t need to do it. With family, friends, work , the gym, etc….these girls do just fine without online dating. It’s the ones who don’t that end up on the dating sites. And in a rural area, if shes average looking and in any kind of decent shape, the online competition between the men just overwhelms her, and them as well. Since, as I wrote, good looking normal girls just arent online dating. And, you end up seeing them still active 6 months, 1 year, 3 years from now.still looking for that perfect guy; more evidence that somethings just not right. I would love to prove myself wrong, and still hold out hope to do so. But so far, this has been the reality for me every time.
Kristyn 120
Guess I’m not a good looking, quality normal girl. Good thing I read this blog or I wouldn’t never have known. Thanks for the enlightenment Rick.
Kristyn 121
I was probably “passed over” because I don’t proof read my comments before Isubmit them.
Kristyn 122
Sorry about snapping. I sometimes get offended when it feels like someone passes blanket judgments about a whole group of which I belong. I think that they are (hopefully) commenting about their own personal experiences and less about me. I would never assume that all (insert group) are (insert trait/characteristic/flaw) because I know people are individuals. And btw – Im equally offended when someone says all men are jerks or whatever because itjustn’t so. Maybe the last guy was a jerk (he wasnt) but so what? Doesnt mean the next guy will be.If the last girl you met online had major issues doesnt mean they all will. The day I quit seeing people as individuals with both good and bad qualities and simple see them as agroup(or worse as the enemy) is the day I become a hermit and go live in a cave by myself.
Joe 123
Well, Rick, if your opinion is that people who are into online dating have something wrong with them, nobody would ever find anyone online, since those who arelooking are seeing people who are similarly flawed.
Rick 124
Kristen and Joe- I apologize if I offended you. Online dating is very frustrating, which makes me eatso many lemons. I am just speaking from personal experience, which seems to be similar to Steve’s, and manyother men’s experience with online dating. Out of all of my female friends (and I have more female friends then male)very, veryfew have ever tried online dating. They just don’t have to. The fewthat do try it, to be honest, are the ones that have thesignificant issues with their behavior, weight, or have 2 + children. I’m sure there are exceptions to this, and maybe this just happens in the small town I live in. Believe me, I wishI was writing that online dating is awesome, and has led to many healthy relationships for me. But the truth is, I haven’t had 1 quality relationship occur from online dating. And I’ve been one of the fortunatemento have been able to actually go out on dates with thewomenI meet online. Most men, from what I read,aren’t even that lucky. It doesn’t seem like it works for thegirls either, as I stillsee the same ones online, years after I first joined. I was just making a general statement about my experience. I truly hope you are right, and that I have yet to meet the individual that will change my mind.
Jennifer 125
Rick #117- Sometimes the scenario is quite different than the one you describe. You have some women online that are approached quite often ‘irl’ but not by the guys she wants to meet. So she goes online thinking the guys may be a bit more ‘serious’, or looking for the more introverted guy that is too shy to approach her in the store.
You have women that have gotten out of relationships and are getting out there to meet people- online is just another way, like going out with friends or to clubs etc.
I get that your experience with women online has been less than ideal, but I hope you realize that the conclusions you’ve drawn about whythat isarefar from representative of everyone.
JB 126
Jennifer’s also leaving out another huge reason some women especially older women prefer online to “irl”. Online they can “shop”(qualify) specifically by numbers as well as looks ie: Height,income,education etc…. where as “irl” they have no say as to who approaches them. You can’t easily ignore or delete a guy “irl” who shows interest at a bar or singles event as you can online.
Diana 127
Given that so many profiles are not honest, if some women are going based on numbers (and even photos can be fake), they could run into trouble. My online profile has very few preferences and there are no preferences set for: income, education, salary, job, religion, or physical traits. I am an attractive woman who has been told that my profile is clever, so you might would think my in box would stay at least a little busy, but that’s not the case. Loads of guys view my profile, but very few approach. I think my biggest detractor for guys is the fact that I have two children living at home, although they are older teens. That’s too bad (for the guys, anyway).
Ce la vie.
JB 128
Diana,I don’t mean that women’s profilesare set with “preferences” the “qualifiers” are in the mind as they search. Most sites won’t let you “”disqualify” or “filter out” who emails you except Plenty of Fish who’ll let you decide by age or if you have a photowho you will accept emails from but not obviously height,education,income etc… I’m just saying that “SOME” women not alldo use and stick to certain criteria.That’s what Evan is trying to get them to change and stop being so rigid.
I know personally for myself that recently I’ve actually gotten responses from women who’s first question they ask is “tell me what you do and where you work” and then after I tell them. I’m disqualified and I never hear from them again. Not all of them,but some.
Just like I don’t disqualify against a woman with kids under 15 for THAT reason alone but I have to draw the line somewhere and recently it was at a woman with 4 kids under 16 who sent me a recent pic (NOT in her profile btw) that was 20-30 lbs heavier than the one IN her profile. We all have our “deal breakers” don’t we…lol It’s just for men we usually don’t let what a woman does for a living or her income,education etc…break the deal all that often.
We’re so superficial….lol So are the women believe me…lol
Joe 129
C’est la vie, indeed.
Maybe it’s just me, but I’ve noticed that on Match people who don’t fill in an answer on one of the questions (e.g. body type, hair color, etc.) don’t show up in searches unless the searcher has no preference on that question. So if you were looking for someone withall but one hair color(and had checked off all the boxes but one), you would not find someone who has “no answer” listed but who may very well fit the bill.
Diana 130
Thanks for mentioning that, Joe. I search based on age and location. I have all of my details listed. I just click on “no preference” for several of the “what am I looking for” items. Most of the profiles that Match sends my way get disqualified due to their location.
I had a good chuckle one time when I privately labored over whether a man I was genuinely interested in was living too far away. When I finally let him know this, he sounded irate and asked me whether I was interested in having a relationship or dating my next door neighbor. Well, I guess it depends on your next door neighbor.
A-L 131
Can’t quite figure out where to post this, so it’s going here. How do most people search for people on Match.com? Do they search via activity date? Newest first? Just the default “Match picks” mode? A different way?
The reason why I ask is because I am trying to convince my friend to at least log in to her account daily, even if she does nothing, just so that her account will be active within 24 hours. Because last night while we were searching for her it was 8 pages of 18 profiles per page before we got to people who had been active less often than that. So since she only logs in 1-2 times per week, I was telling her that most guys would never find her in a search. (Her profile is far from new, the alphabetical order search wouldn’t help her…she does have a picture so she might randomly come up sooner in that or in the semi-random Match.com default search but no guarantees there.)
JB 132
All my searches are in this order
1. Newest profiles first
2. Distance from my house (closest first obviously)
3. Active within a week
I’m sure most people on every site know if you’re not active in over a week it’s not a great thing. But on Match for guys searching by “distance” first she should still come up to those guys nearest to her on the first page even if she hasn’t logged on in 2 or 3 days.
Diana 133
Hi A-L. I don’t know how people search on Match, but I make it a point to update my profile every few days, even if it’s just a minor tweak. It helps to keep my profile near the top, if the guy is doing a general search based on age and location.
Michael 134
Cant quite figure out where to post this, so its going here. How do most people search for people on Match.com? Do they search via activity date? Newest first? Just the default Match picks mode? A different way?
I search for women between 32 and 33, living within 20 miles.
JB 135
^^^^^^^^^^
32 and 33 !!!!!! …you’re kidding right ??
Rick 136
Jennifer – Actually,the conclusionsI’ve drawn about whyinternet dating hasn’t worked for me do seem representative of what most men go through. A few Google searches about online dating or readingmany ofthe above posts seem to reinforce my opinion. And, thats all it is, my opinion; based upon my own life. You are certainly right that there are other types of girls online dating then those I have met. The world is a big place. But they do seem to be the exception, not the rule. If a guy were to ask me what I think of online dating, I would share with him my experiences. They are the only truth I know. I wouldnt share with him what potential experiences I think are out there. Id tell him about my actual interactions and dates, and the conclusions I have come to based upon them. Believe me, and I cant stress this enough, I hold out hope for the type of girl you described. Best of luck to us all in the New Year.
Ava 137
Rick #124
If the women you encounter online are so bad, why aren’t you dating one of your many high-quality female friends?
tony 138
is online dating a good thing or a bad thing? it depends – are you male or female? formost menit is not very good and heres why:
-Far fewerfemales than males, usually its anywhere from 2x more men up to 10x as many males as there are females
-Of the women that do post,the percentage of attractive women is much smaller than the percentage of attractive women outin the real world. ( to test this brows a dating site, then walk down a crowded street and compare)
-add to this thaton some sitemanyfemale profiles are fakes made by the site to attract males.Many are also fakes that spam once they get your email(especially CL where almostall the W4M are spam)
For women on the other hand.. it might not be so bad, even pretty good maybe.
- the biggest complaint from women is that its not easy to find the perfect guy (but are the choices available online so much worse than (irl))
+ women get messaged often, get replies to thier messagesand can go on dates if they choose ( my guess based on the numbers discrepency).
scott (second) 139
So i have decided to use this online dating to see what it’s albout
i have managed to get replies within four or six emails sent to different woman
but how, i had to change my strategy a few times to be successful.
Here’s one i tryed, you have imagen that you are in a bar having a drink and you’re approaching her for example
You see a cute girl stood at the bar you walk up to her and say your icebreaker she talk’s to you and after she has finnished look her in the eye’s you say “well it was nice talking to you”(not sarcastic but sincere) you then shake her hand and turn around to talk to someone else, to her it’s like rejection so she trys to engage in conversion again.
So you find a cute girl on the intrernet you click on her proflie you read it hopfully its only short you send her the icebreaker(find something in her profile you can use) then wright “iv just read your proflie”, so this is like she’s taking to you in the bar(your reading her prolie “im anna i like, movies, cinema, frends…….”)
then you wright “we just are’nt a very good match come to think of it, but good luck anyway” (she will see this as rejection) then send it. With in 20 minutes she read my profile and sent me a message, ok this won’t always work, but it’s a good way to get her attention.
The message read “how dare you, who do you think you are sending that as a first message”
What’s this saying “why did you reject me” she’s also curious. You send a message back saying “Your proflie just has no depth, more depth creates more interest, Tell me something interesting about yourself” by doing this you see your setting the standerd,
What your saying is your looks dont mean anything to me, and what you said in your poor profile is’nt going to cut it. The thing is she read my profile so if she was’nt interested why send the message in the first place, most people wouldn’t even bother. Sound’s like misdirection, remember action’s speak louder than words.
Diane 140
It worked for me. It took 4 men to get the right one at number 5. The first man liked to dress up in womens clothing, the second one forgot to tell me he was married and living in a camper in his soon to be x's backyard, the third one was ok but had 40 yr. old "kids" still living at home with him and the next one city hunted and bleached animal skulls!!
The 5th man and I hit it off. He was very persistant and really went after me. We have been together for 2 yrs. and live together and are engaged so yes it can work.
Mimi 141
Vino,
So this mean that even if I’m an attractive 29 years-old woman, who’s got a great job and is a single mother should be ruled out just because I decided to be responsible and carry on with the consequences of my actions or because once I divorced I kept custody? Does this mean that the 70% of single moms you’re talking about don’t have the same right as you or anyone else to find love and start anew?
My opinion is totally based on presumptions but after reading what you wrote, I think I know why you’re still single.
starthrower68 142
@Diane #140 -
You’ve only had to go through 5?
Karl R 143
Mimi asked: (#141)
“Does this mean that the 70% of single moms you’re talking about don’t have the same right as you or anyone else to find love and start anew?”
Dating isn’t a right. Dating isn’t egalitarian. Dating is millions of people making individually biased decisions.
If you’re attractive, you have an advantage. If you’re unattractive, you’re at a disadvantage. This pattern applies across many traits.
As a single mother, you probably will be ruled out by a number of men like Vino. It doesn’t matter whether you “should be ruled out”. Some men will rule you out. That doesn’t mean you can’t find love. It does mean that it might take you longer.
If you don’t want it to take longer for you, then there is an easy solution: don’t rule out as many men as other women do.
sayanta 144
Vino, at #14-
I don’t know if you’re on this blog anymore, but I’m curious- if women aren’t supposed to use flattering adjectives to describe themselves, how exactly ARE they supposed to describe themselves? From what you’ve written, you seem to have knocked out EVERY member of the female population.
Also- you’ve said women who are emotionally/physically healty don’t do the online thing. What about men? I’m assuming it’s the same there. You’re online dating- are you categorizing yourself as unhealthy as well? If so, how do you expect to find a healthy woman?
Again- don’t know if you’re still reading, so it’s likely that my questions will remain unanswered…
Selena 145
Re:#141
No, it means no such thing. Being a single mom means men like Vino will automatically weed themselves out as your dating prospects. Which is a GOOD thing. And a big time saver as well.
Karl R 146
sayanta, (#144)
Evan can correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe he advises that you not use any adjectives to describe yourself in your profile.
And I believe Evan booted Vino from the blog over a year ago.
sayanta 147
#146, Karl-
Oh, yeah I know that. I’m not an adjective fan myself- it’s just the way Vino was expressing himself- it just came across as kind of misogynistic. Booted from the blog? Really? I mean, don’t agree with his comments, but it seems that then half the people here should have been booted- lol.
Chris 148
@Mimi
I don’t think it makes any sense to pick on Vino. Obviously there are men and women out there who are less than completely considerate and open-minded. Isn’t it healthy to get the perspective of someone like that on a site like that?
And I do not think that Vino said anything that objectionable. Except for people at the bottom of the barrel, everyone has standards. As Karl and Sayanta have said, being in a relationship isn’t a right, but a single mom is a single mom as a result of her own choices, someone who is “ugly” or fat (things that you apparently didn’t have a problem with) just inherited bad genes. And frankly, a single parent’s lifestyle is going to be very different from a non-parent’s.
So this mean that even if I’m an attractive 29 years-old woman, who’s got a great job and is a single mother . . . Does this mean that the 70% of single moms you’re talking about don’t have the same right as you or anyone else to find love and start anew?”
Unless you believe that only successful and attractive people have a “right to start anew,” what moral difference does it make if you’re attractive or not or successful or not?
The only thing that’s unfair is how moms usually do A LOT more childrearing after a separation. Single dads, whose custody might be a few days per month or nothing at all, thus tend to have it a lot easier with geting back into relationships. One night/six night splits are unfair (though often willingly chosen), but the unfairness comes from the father, not men the mom would like to date.
sayanta 149
I don’t know if this has been discussed before, so my apologies. But probably the biggest ‘annoyance’ to put it mildly, is getting a bazillion winks and only a handful of e-mails on a paid site. But when I was on POF, it was a bazillion e-mails and a handful of winks (same pics by the way). Oh, the irony.
hiker 150
I’ve been on and off dating sites both paid and free and found my results to be very luke warm. I thought I had caught a very nice fish on POF and we dated for about a month and a half and then she freaked out and hopped off the hook. I have all but given up on the whole thing. I have a decent profile, recent photographs and still nothing. I really think that all of us, myself included, have a checklist of the type of person we want to be with. And some of us that have been divorced seem to be a little more picky. We know what we want and there is no sense in settling for someone that does not meet our standards. The whole online thing simply perpetuates this the idea. Where else can you look at a persons picture and simply reject them without even talking to them. Or you can read someone’s profile and then reject them because he or she is a certain height or weight or have the same education level or make a certain amount of money. Oh well I think I’ll try meeting people the old fashioned way. But gasp, that means I’d have to leave the house and actually talk to them. I really wish I could teleport myself back to the eighties when the dance clubs in my city were hopping and it was so much easier to talk to women. Clubbing today is a young man’s game and besides most of them 1) don’t know how to dance and 2) are meat-heads or ditzes.
Karl R 151
After reading an OkCupid blog post discussing how poorly Match.com and eHarmony performed, I decided to do some fact-checking.
Info taken from eHarmony’s website:
“With over 15K new members joining everyday and 236* of them getting married each day; it’s easy to see why eHarmony is a brand people trust with their most important life decision”
* The source was a survey of 7,135 people who got married.
236 / 15,000 = 1.57%
eHarmony caters exclusively to people who are serious about getting married, yet only 1.6% end up getting married.
Info taken from a Match.com advertisement:
“12 couples got married or engaged today thanks to Match.com.”
“Engage 2.8 million Match.com users who connect online and meet offline.”
Assuming that the source of the “12 couples” was from the same survey of married people…
12 couples = 24 people per day = 8,760 per year
8,760 / 2,800,000 = 0.64%
Of Match.com’s 2.8 million users, only 0.6% get married each year.
The same Match.com advertisement said:
“56 million+ first emails sent per year”
56 million emails / 4,380 marriages = 12,785
For every marriage, 12,875 first emails were sent.
At least Match.com was smart enough to drop this information from their advertisments.
Of the 88.9 million single people in the US, 4.4 million got married (during the same year as eHarmony’s survey).
4.4 million / 88.9 million = 4.9%
If you’re single, your chance of getting married is 4.9%, regardless of whether you use online dating.
No wonder so many of us say that we do better offline than online.
hiker said: (#150)
“I think I’ll try meeting people the old fashioned way. But gasp, that means I’d have to leave the house and actually talk to them.”
It might improve your odds.
A-L 152
RE: Karl’s #151
How many of Match’s 56 million e-mails were spam? For instance, “I think you’re hot. Call me at xxx-xxxx,” or some such garbage. I suspect that’s a large percentage, and it might improve Match’s odds. But wow, makes me feel lucky I didn’t have to wade through 12,000 some e-mails!
hiker 153
Match is a complete joke. I have a pretty good profile, current photographs and I even change it from time to time. I send notes to those I am interested in and occasionally they will respond and then all communication stops. And just for the record I usually keep the conversation about things in their profiles and never anything vulgar or sexually explicit. But a lot of the time the women will not respond and what’s worse will not even view my profile. I used to worry about it but now I don’t even give half the women in my area a second thought. If they view my profile and don’t email me or even wink I take that to mean they weren’t interested.
The only criteria I have in my profile that might eliminate some of the women online is that I would like to date has to be physically fit or at least trying to be. None of the other aspects such as income, job, or religion will eliminate a person from a possible date/relationship. I think some women have unrealistic expectations and pass over many a guy because they don’t make enough money, aren’t into travel(which takes $$), or even don’t own a home.
@ Karl R #151, thanks for posting that and you are absolutely correct getting out to meet people the old fashioned way will greatly improve your odds. Trying to find love online does nothing but deflate a person’s confidence.
hiker 154
And just so you know many of the same people on Match also can be also found on POF and even though this is a free site you have to wade through a lot of “non-keepers.” I imagine a lot of people on POF actually believe they’ve got a better chance of finding love. The site is free so you can imagine the “quality” of people that entices. And the forums are full of both men and women complaining about the type of people found on the site. But what they tend to forget is that you get what you pay for on POF which equals “Nothing.”
BeenThereDoneThat 155
TO Hiker
Just a thought: if I read a guy’s profile and he has a list of very specific things he wants in a woman; I’ll not wink or send an email even if I am interested because he’s eliminated me in some way in his list.
hiker 156
I have one thing on my list – compare to some women that have a laundry list of things they want. Sorry I am not going to date someone that doesn’t at least take care of themselves physically. And if you don’t email/wink oh well I wish you the best of luck in finding that match that will not eliminate you in some way.
Sayanta 157
BTDT-
Yeah- me too. THe problem is that a lot of guys also have an incessant amount of ‘shoulds’ in there profile. If a man’s telling me how I ‘should’ be…um, no.
Problem is, I’m looking for men of my particular race and faith, and they’re the ones who are the most demanding, online at least. lol
A-L 158
Sayanta,
Have you ever looked at the Indian matrimonial websites? I don’t know if they’re kind of like a dating service for marriage-minded Indians, or if it’s more of a marriage-matchmaking service (former allowing for a longer dating relationship than the latter is the distinction I’m trying to make between the two), but I bet you’ll find more guys of South Asian descent who share your faith.
hiker 159
Well then it seems that we are all doomed – And if you tell me that women don’t have a incessant list of “should be” then you need to check some of the profiles your fellow women are posting. It’s alright for a woman to skip a guy by if he doesn’t make 100K and yet I get lambasted because I state in my profile that I would like to date a woman that is physically fit. And if you read my post I said the only criteria I had was that she has to be physically fit or at least trying to be. Okay maybe I shouldn’t have said “has” but my point is which each have our standards and since I work out it seems rational to date some one that has the same mindset.
Selena 160
hiker,
Have you tried meeting women at your health club? Through sports? Maybe a company softball team or something similiar?
Sayanta 161
A-L-
Yeah, I’ve tried those sites- the problem (ah, there’s always one of those, aren’t there
) with them is they attract mostly men who have just come to this country and have way more conservative values than I do. And there are plenty who really are just looking for a green card.
I don’t mean conservative as in Democrat v. Republican, but more toward how they view women.
I don’t know- it does look like I have to make a compromise somewhere, just don’t know what it should be.
Oh- A-L- I am soo sorry if I asked before- there are so many posts here I lose track, but how long were you online dating before finding your man?
C. 162
I don’t think anyone should rely completely on just one way to meet people. I just started online dating, but still on the look out offline as well. I think online is a good way to broaden the field, and is really no different than introducing yourself to someone in the gym/bar/grocery store.
A-L 163
RE: Sayanta‘s #161
I began online dating in the fall of 2006. I continued, off an on, until January 2009 at which point my fiance and I were exclusive. And during those 26 months I probably had an online subscription about 2/3 of the time.
Good luck with your search. Just from your posts I can tell that you’ve put a lot of thought into what you want out of the dating world, and what you want out of a relationship, both of which will help you a lot.
Sayanta 164
A-L-
Thanks for your sweet words… well, I hope it works out. If not, there’s always the Buddhist nunnery. ;-p
hiker 165
#160 Selena, the health clubs are not exactly conducive to meeting women. Sure there are a lot of females that work out but if they are like me the gym is a place to work out not to socialize. Haven’t tried participating in sporting clubs. Played hockey for awhile but it was all dudes so no luck there.
#162 C, I am beginning to realize that the chances of meeting a match on line is getting slimmer and slimmer. So I’ve joined some meetups in an attempt to build but my dating confidence. Online you can type the best email, have a decent profile (minus the criteria because heaven forbid you reject someone that might be interested in you) and yet get no responses. And it has also become apparent to me that the written word can sometimes be misconstrued and what you thought was humor backfires.
Sayanta 166
I think the biggest problem with online dating is because it’s lets face it- shopping for humans- and therefore DE-humanizing in a lot of ways, people don’t know what the proper etiquette is, and feelings get hurt that way.
For example, if a guy waits 4 days to e-mail me- I consider that rude. But apparently guys don’t. So, who’s right?
And there’s some outright weird behaviour that makes you have second thoughts about someone. Case in point, a guy who e-mailed me wants to get together soon- but instead of taking initiative or answering my e-mail, he keeps looking at my profile every day! Maybe he is a good guy? I don’t know… but this weird behavior has made me write him off. I’m sure other people probably think the same way.
BeenThereDoneThat 167
I know I have sometimes waited 4 days before responding although not because I was waiting for 4 days to pass. Recently, work was very hectic and home was pretty busy and I didn’t even check email for a week. So I give people a pass if they don’t respond quickly.
Hiker: I agree, humor can be misconstrued! I either make it so outlandish that it can only be taken as a joke or I’ll say right in the email that I’m just kidding. And I too have written men email’s and not gotten any response which is why I always respond to a nicely written email. I usually respond to one liners with a simple thank you. I don’t respond to flirts/winks.
starthrower68 168
Hehehehe all I’ve noticed is that there are an awful lot of us who are single on these sites and everbody is rejecting each for one reason or another, some good, some not so good. Oh well, what are ya gonna do…..
Karl R 169
Sayanta said: (#166)
“people don’t know what the proper etiquette is,”
“So, who’s right?”
I would agree with that. I would extend that to include you and I as people who don’t know what the proper etiquette is.
Etiquette is a set of expectations of behavior based on the social norms for a group, society or social class. If you think of an online dating site as a group, people enter that group with no concept of what the social norms are, or how those norms might differ from typical dating. If a dating site has a typical turnover of 6 months, people may have an idea of the norms by the time they leave. Since there’s a rapid turnover, there’s always a sizeable segment of the group that has differing opinions about what the expectation of behavior should be.
Until enough people have the same expectation, we don’t know who is engaging in proper etiquette. We’re just taking our best guess.
Sayanta said: (#166)
“And there’s some outright weird behaviour [...] instead of taking initiative or answering my e-mail, he keeps looking at my profile every day!”
I think you’re trying to read too much into a situation where you have very little information.
One woman I dated would send 2 page replies to each of my emails, always within an hour of when she received them. Someone could assume that she was desperately waiting by the computer for my emails.
In reality, she was unemployed and bored. She was spending most of her time online (pursuing job leads, making a little money on eBay or just entertaining herself) and reading / replying to my emails was an interesting diversion.
When you understand her perspective, her behavior seems completely rational.
Star 170
I am a 39 year old woman, that was recently divorced. I tried 3 sites of online dating…went out with 4 men, 3 that were my exact age and one that was 49. I am now living with one of the men my age, been dating for 9 months and the future is good. My live-in was doing online dating for quite some time before he met me. Maybe we got really lucky or maybe we had realistic expectations, were honest from the start and made each other a priority. My experience with online dating, though short (only about 2 1/2 months) was positive and I think it’s possible to find a compatible match if that is what you truly want.
Golden Child 171
i will say that online dating is a gamble. I was on match.com for a year and out of the dozens of women I messaged, only two responded. Although I did get both of their phone numbers, I never went out on a date with either of them because of complications. The second girl who I was going to go out with I cut contact with because I had just lost my job and had become broke
.
I think there is no universal standard of what every woman considers to be an attractive dateable man. Similarly, a woman you might find attractive may be completely repulsive to me and many others. Some women think I am an adonis and other women think I am as appealing as soiled kitty litter. Some girls like Black guys, some girls like White guys. Some girls want a rich guy, others just want a companion and don’t care. I believe that there is someone for everyone. I am 6’1″, many women tell me I am attractive and I am college educated. I am only in my mid 20′s and working on getting my career started.
I do believe that women have the upper hand in online dating. However, women have the upper hand in dating, period. Women choose who they want to date. Earlier this year when I was working, I must have gotten over 20 phone numbers from 20 different women from bars, parties, concerts and just about and about in public places over a 3-4 month period. None of these women were stunningly beautiful, unique looking or seemed interesting, they were mostly ego boosts. Only ONE of those women responded to any of my calls and text messages and went out on dates with me. I cut her off because I wasn’t that into her.
Denise 172
Although it feels like women have the ‘upper hand’, I think you would find women that would say the exact opposite, that men have the ‘upper hand’.
So what that says to me is this is just the way humans are built and the way dating and mating works. We can sit around and say it SHOULD be different, and the person could be ‘right’ in theory, but that’s wishful thinking. Do we want to be RIGHT or do we want to be HAPPY?
Dating/mating is a dance, it is a game (a fun game), each person has their ‘role’. In my opinion, the man’s job is to pursue, and the women’s job is to be open to that pursuit.
Noori 173
After reading many of your responses, I have to say, WOW!
I have many many friends who have done the online dating thing, and most of them are all married to their spouses they met through the Internet. All of them met each other on different dating and matrimonial websites. It took them a while, some it took a year to find the other online, and for some it happened within a few months. I have also had friends who have tried online dating and gone on a few dates, but nothing was successful. I have personally tried online dating, but it has not worked for me. I actually get rejected instead and people look at my profile and pass on. Makes me wonder if there’s something wrong with me and so I’ve just decided to pass on the whole online dating thing. I do understand however, that most people don’t pay to be on a website so they can’t really initiate anything, and I have also seen some people put out their email addresses as a message that the dating website does not notice, in the hopes that they don’t have to pay and have people figure out how to email them instead to get in touch with them. Either way, unfortunately for me, it never worked. I guess I am unappealing because I’m a tad overweight and no one can tell that I am actually working out, eating healthier and losing weight and am not some fat thing. Oh well, to each his own. Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.
I feel that online dating is more about who you are attracted to before you read anything else about them. And I was never that one girl that men would write emails to, so for those of you men who say women have the upper hand, this girl does not.
Here is my take on dating. It doesn’t matter whether you meet this person online, or in any place. Online dating and meeting someone in the real world outside of the Internet is essentially the same. The only difference is that most people can lie on the Internet about their physical appearance (not their personality because you have to be able to tell that when you talk to them anyway offline or online) and say that they are very tall, or very lean, etc., and when you meet them, they turn out to be someone else completely (can be a scary thing and has happened before to a couple friends who went through unsuccessful online dating). At least meeting someone in person, you already seen their physical self right there, so they can’t lie about their height or how they look like. And either way, online dating and dating offline both take many risks that are involved.
So this is my take on online dating through my eyes. For some it’s successful and for many others it is not. It depends on how you rock the Internet. I also think it’s about luck….if you’re lucky, you will meet a great person online. I have not been lucky. I am trying to see what the dating life is like offline but so far, no luck there either. That’s also because I have religious and cultural restrictions so it’s harder for me to find someone than for the average person who has no restrictions.
Thanks.
Denise 174
I had an experience this weekend I wanted to share that turned really hit home for me in regard to the concept of dismissing men/women too easily in on line dating.
This is by NO means a dismissal of on line dating, it’s just a re-iteration from my point of view about the human experience and on line dating.
The FIRST step of in-person courting is PHYSICAL ATTRACTION, testing the man, encouraging him. In on line dating, this ends up being the SECOND step, when the in person meeting takes place. So you can see, the steps are out of order in on line dating.
I met a man on line a couple of months ago. He’s 6 years older than me. We had a good first meeting, and he pursued for more dates. He is a man of very good character, good personality, easy to talk to–and he was into me. I really make an effort to give men a chance, to see if that connection can grow–we went on 5 or 6 dates. I ended up not continuing to see him because I just wasn’t feeling that physical connection, like I wanted to cuddle up with him much less have sex with him. I felt bad about this yet again….why am I so picky? Why am I not feeling that physical attraction?
I was out this weekend at an event where there were single men (and it wasn’t a bar, although there was alcohol being served). I ended up meeting a man, who I guess was approximately 6-9 years older than me. As soon as I made eye contact, he was over to me to as me to dance. We had a nice conversation, and he continued to pursue me the rest of the evening. He walked away to dance with other women a couple of times, but kept coming back to dance and chat. He was reasonably physically attractive, but I was very much flattered and attracted by his attention and persistence. I could feel that physical attraction and my interest immediately as we continued to flirt and he continued to show his interest in me–made me feel special. I know some about this man professionally, but not a lot about his character at this point. However, I find myself hoping he does call so I can learn more about him.
In reflecting back, I came to realize how much more powerful meeting in person is–at least to me, and I dare say a lot of women. It’s the pursuit of the man that I believe is so compelling to women. That masculine energy and him ‘playing his role’, making the woman feel like she’s special, that amps up the attraction factor right from the first meeting. In on line dating, there’s that first interaction, which is often a bit guarded and certainly not very ‘romantic’ or special. It really can’t be, otherwise it’s comes off as being way too much–damned if you do, damned if you don’t.
My final comment is not to be too hard on women because they dismiss men so easily. When they say they are not ‘feeling it’, there’s a reason for that happening. Often we can’t articulate exactly why, however, I do strongly believe that my experience as I describe above is not unique and is reflective of why women don’t feel that ‘chemisty’/physical attraction with men when on line dating. (Obviously there ARE situations where the woman and man are feeling it since there are relationships/marriages that are happening–has to be a very small percentage though compared to the number of meetings/dates that are happening.)
P.S. I wonder how many of these on line marriages actually will last for the long run. It’ll be interesting to see if there’s a higher rate of divorce or the same.
dutchgirlnyc 175
Sigh..all of this leaves me sad.
I am a divorced 39 year old who lives in the most amazing city in the world and I can tell you that despite the fact that I have a:
–a clever online profile (typo free)
–current + attractive photos
–childless
–non smoker/non drug user
–avoidance of schmaltzy language, discussion of religion or extreme political views
–no mention of freakonics, eat pray love, agreements, grisham, ayn rand, etc.
–no cats–but I do have a dog, but NOT a purse sized one who wears clothes
–tall
–employed and financially independent
–no plastic surgery, fake tans, overdone boobs, etc.
I am getting almost NO responses to emails sent and am taking time to craft original emails.
Evan has made it clear that if “one” doesn’t make the effort to initiate contact, someone else will and you may lose your chance. The supply of available men in our “pool” is incredibly small and yet they want as young as 18-27 year olds. I also know he discusses that we all may suffer from having a higher perceived value than we do, so perhaps, initially, when I first went online I did. However, now, I find myself NOT writing to the rakishly handsome men, but the clever and interesting and slightly quirky types and still: no response. I STILL think there’s a double standard against women contacting men, especially in America.
I don’t know why MEN persist in thinking that women have the upper hand here. We DON”T at all. And, men if you think women are ONLY perusing for those who don’t have kids, are uber tall (tho, I’m 5’9″ and my ex was shorter than me) and make $XXXX, you couldn’t be further from the truth. Well, at least in speaking for myself, I don’t focus on those qualities but rather i think is this person: kind, funny, and is he interested in the same kinds of things I would like long-term–stability, partnership, etc.
I’ve never had to go online to meet guys before and now since most of my pals friends, co-workers, brothers, neighbors, frat brothers, are married, paired up or moved to the suburbs, that leaves only 25 year olds in bars (who even if I was, they’re generally interested in 23-28 year olds), what’s a woman to do. I’m not going to join the skeet shooting or golf club just to meet a man.
I can’t believe that a woman would HONESTLY not date a divorced man with kids, simply because that would leave little time for him to be with her. If anything, to me, that would stress that the man is giving, devoted, and nurturing and is putting someone else’s needs before his own. Aren’t those the kind of qualities we’d only HOPE to have in a relationship?
But, I do agree with Even, it’s a numbers game and it’s not. DO continue to be out and about, talk to people, do things, get a dog, volunteer, go to library or book stores, concerts, etc. and attempt to broaden your circle. But also make the best effort by going online.
Giving it a think outloud….but still not 100% optimistic
joe33 176
I run into the chemistry thing all the time. In online dating I get a decent number of replies , though I only look for women I have common values and interests that are shared. They find me physically attractive enough , we exchange e-mails and then meet, talk and laugh have an good time. Then they e-mail me to say you are really awesome , but there was no instant chemistry, or worse just never call me back. I don’t get it. My guy friends don’t get it except to suggest I don’t know how to push the right buttons on a first date to trick them into feeling like they want a second. The women I know don’t get it and suggest my standards may be too low or the women I am trying to date are just weird or something. I only have ended up in relationships one way and that’s by meeting some women and sleeping with her right away in what I think is only a short term hookup (Something I’m not usually into) Then she’s instantly wanting to be my girl friend, and once we’ve been doing that a little while she’s wanting to get married. All the while acting pleasantly surprised that am actually this awesome guy and it always turns out she’s got big problems/issues. One the other hand every normal girl I meet who I’d like to actually spend time with runs the other way.
If I find someone attractive (their pictures can tell me that) , and if I like their personality and sense of humor and get along with them the date tells me that so I’m then at least up for getting to know them a little better. Too bad they did’t feel instant chemistry in the first 4 minutes of talking to me.
I think I wasted all the time I spent on becoming an intelligent , educated , decently employed , considerate person with a great sense of humor , and certainly all those hours in the gym and eating healthy were not that important when it comes to dating. I see fat , dull, shallow, boring men who work at burger king who can recite the “tricks” to lets see how did they so eloquently put it ?..oh yeah “hitting that shit” with smart attractive women seeming to rave about the chemistry they had with these jackasses. At least at first then it’s wow that guy was a loser and sucked in bed. If he’s not totally lame they might even get to panic in a couple of years when all those hormones where off and they realize he’s actually just a boring dick head. Then as everyone around them says of course he always been a boring dick head she can say oh but the you know the thing we had that can’t be explained and makes no sense , the magic chemistry was there. I really just don’t get it. Guys talk about how women are pretty , smart funny , a nice person , interesting etc. Women talk about, how tall like a inch or two matters (I’m tall but I don’t get it) or simply magic pixie dust and how a guy danced around or did some random BS or made some asinine remark that appears to be total gibberish at just the right time. It makes no sense. Oh well I’ll be single and they will be divorced eventually.
Frozen and Fried 177
The dating sites have done it for a few people, but you have to look far and hard. It seems that the majority of the people are either scammers/spammers trying to get you to wire money to Nigeria or Russia[too cold] or you run into women that don’t want a relationship–just sex [too hot] After I have been frozen by cold hearted scammers and fried by a blue hot lustful person that left after satisfying her desire, I have decided that I am not going to pay for affection thru sex. The best way is not to bring them home with you, and the Bible specifically prohibits sex out of marriage. I wish you guys luck in all your searches. If a person starts talking dirty, and wanting sex, but no commitment, the best advice is never to bring them home with you or go to their place. It is just harder in Fresno, due to the fact that being a limited town with limited places, you soon run out of places to go to. You can only see River Park so many times.
Savannah 178
Online dating confusion. I just got divorced after 20 years of marriage and about 1.5 years after separating (married young – I’m in my mid 40s) and am trying online dating, which I find very, very confusing. Unfortunately, the only guys I’ve clicked with live in cities different than mine. There’s one in particular that seemed to really click. We were chatting up a storm until he started asking me pointed questions about whether I’m ready for a serious relationship since getting divorced. The truth is that I’m beyond ready, but I just said yes to play it cool. Things have been awkward at times (but not always) since then, but have nevertheless continued. Then I noticed that I was initiating an inordinate number of our chats, so I decided to stop and see what happened. Nothing happened. After forcing myself to wait until after Valentines Day to avoid looking desperate, I initiated what turned out to be a long chat. It had been about 2.5 to 3 weeks since our last chat (of this I am sure). After some introductory how are you’s, I get the following “where have you been the last few months? We haven’t talked in a long while. What’s new? Any dates? We met on a dating site. Why wouldn’t I care about that?” We had each had some dates that didn’t pan out, but here’s my question that I didn’t ask him which is, why would he care about that? If he does, then he should initiate more contact and drive the few hours it takes to meet me. This online stuff confuses me!
Cat 179
Savannah, #178, Evan’s Finding the One Online would really clear up your confusion about online dating!
You could also check out this blog post. I think you’ll find it applies well to your current situation! There’s really nothing confusing at all about a guy who doesn’t initiate contact or make the effort to see you. He’s not interested! Don’t give up on online dating. Maybe you need to change the site you’re on. Finding the One Online does a good job of explaining how to choose dating sites, how many to use, etc. Far more than I can list here!
Be sure to sign up for Evan’s free newsletter. It comes out every Tuesday.
Tina 180
Online dating… I tried it for a year straight. My conclusion? It doesn’t work. I’ve decided to just dust myself off and go back to traditional dating. As a woman, my finding is that the men (and I’m sure some women are guilty of this, too) are always looking for something better. They tend not to want to put much effort into the relationship or are always cruising online to see what else might be out there… this is the crux of online dating… everybody is quick to jump ship because of the endless possibilities.
sparky 181
If you’re in you 30s and a women you can forget online dating, any guy my age has a maximum of 30 on match, any guy who does email me are either in their 60′s or just odd! I did go on some dates but only 2 out of 20 guys looked like their pictures, the rest looked about 15 years older. Also a lot of guys say they are 5 ft 11, you meet them and I tower over them (I’m 5 ft 5). I went on match as I’m in my late 30′s and get guys in their 20′s chating me up (I don’t look my age), and wanted to meet a guy more my age. Well on match I feel my age is up in neon lights, no guy my age wants to meet me unfortunately, so I’ve given up after a year of online dating, and back to the real world, looking at the comments about looks like I’m not ever going to meet anyone, oh well … Its not just me I’ve a lot of single friends around my age, one friend stayed on it for 5 years! All of my friends are great looking, good fun but thats not good enough online.
Kurt 182
Sparky, I think you are onto something – it must be especially tough for women in their mid-late 30s or older. I used eHarmony for a few months when I was 28 and had some success and then used it again for a few months when I was 32 and also had some success. Now I am 35 and just signed up for eHarmony a couple weeks ago and am amazed at how many responses I am getting. Either the women are doing the “Shotgun approach” of initiating communication with every guy that they might find attractive or there just aren’t that many guys my age interested in the women around my age. I have averaged between 1 and 2 women initiating communication with me per day on eHarmony, which seems crazy to me – I didn’t have nearly as many women initiating communication with me when I used eHarmony when I was younger. It’s gotten to the point where I actually have to make quick judgments because I don’t want to be going on a date with several different women every week. It’s too bad that the women weren’t this proactive when they were younger because a lot of them probably would have gotten married by now.
Andy 183
On two occasions i have ran into women at parties whom i emailed on match, but they never replied back. I recognized them but they didn’t recognize me apparently. I had a mutual friend introduce us, chit-chatted with them for a bit got their numbers easily.
One was really pretty, but had tons of baggage. She told me she keeps going for the wrong guy and has been cheated on a lot. Dumped her after a month, she was possessive and had huge trust issues.
2nd one was not as attractive in person. Had a lot of makeup, looked better in photos. Never called her back. Some time later a mutual friend said that really bruised her ego, since it never happend to her before. lol ironic.
Moral of the story, go out into the real world to find dates if you are a guy. And sometimes its better that you didnt get a reply from women you emaiied.
Venus 184
My online subscription expires this week and I will be deleting the account. I have learned some valuable lessons from OLD, and don’t really care to continue. In truth I meet better quality men in my day to day associations and now I am more appreciative of them. So though the dates may be fewer, at least I am not subjected to regular objectification and scrutiny by men who I would not even notice in my everyday life. Chapter closed. Moving on to Plan C.
Jennifer 185
I’m finding that most of the comments here are very negative, which makes me wonder why so many people who seem just to be here to complain about the advice being offered, are here in the first place? Also one thing I’ve learned the very hard way, yes sometimes people are jerks, but what is it about yourself that is attracting those people? It’s that old cliche about you have to be the one to find the one. Frankly too, attitude goes a LONG way. If you don’t believe you won’t find someone online, cool. Find another way. However for those of us who’s online dating experience has been good (not perfect, still looking for that special someone) our attitudes likely have a lot to do with it? Being friendly, positive, approachable, and reserving being overtly critical comes into play. If you are busy picking someone apart after a couple emails (emails, mind you per at least one of the examples, knowing nothing other than a handful of words about someone) well how can anyone have a chance? You yourself are cutting them off before you’re even out of the gate. So like I said, what I’ve learned is our dating experience is more about US, the person HAVING the experience, and how we frame that experience, learn from it, grow from it, ENJOY IT, than much else.
matey 186
I’ve been doing online dating on and off for about 10 months now – just a couple of brief periods ‘on’ really. I’m a woman of 42 and I have no kids. I do it because I just do not meet single men in the normal run of my life, but I have a chance of meeting them online.
I advise men who are not getting replies from women in the following ways:
1. Write a personalised message, using good grammar and spelling, and enough text for us to make a worthwhile response. Things like ‘i’ for ‘I’, sloppy punctuation or just writing ’hi babe’ just look as if you can’t be bothered and are being randomly speculative. It’s hard to invest in that, no matter how good looking the man is.
2. Refer to us by name, not as ‘sweetie’ ‘darling’ or ‘babe’. I stopped writing to a man who did this because he came across as insincere and as if he couldn’t be bothered remembering my name. These generic terms are impersonal, and the trick with internet dating is to connect inspite of the technology.
3. Choose photographs in which you look sane! i.e. not ones in which you are wild eyed etc.
4. Avoid the motor bike shots. It’s great that your like you bike, but it does not make us want to date you and we see so many of them.
5. Be realistic. Most women 10 years younger than you will not be interested because they want a peer. I don’t write to men who are more than about 7 years older no matter how good looking they are, simply because when I look at their profile I don’t connect with them. They are of another generation. We all feel young inside, but this does not mean others will percieve is the same way.
6. On you profile, don’t tell us how young you really are. We can pick up on that for ourselves. Your pictures and text will give it away. Plus being unhappy with yourself is not attractive. If you are 50, you are 50, so you’d better start liking it because the alternative is not good.
Hope this helps and good luck.
J 187
@Lanie So culling “frogs” eh? your approach to choosing a life partner is very dehumanizing and anyone who goes along with her advice is basically saying that a well-written resume makes for a good enough life-partner. I hope you don’t plan to be a mother some day, it would be very painful to watch you cull your own children. The issue isn’t with the fact that there are bad eggs out there, the issue is with you and how you respond to them. Truly genuine bad eggs are rare and I promise you 9 out of 10 times you are culling decent candidates. A woman who believes otherwise is a woman who has lived inside of her own head for too long. And don’t bother me with any feminist rage, the world is pretty-much tired of your victim-raging.
@Frozen and Fried: The Bible also says not to throw your pearls before the swine. I learned that lesson the hard way from a girl who wanted revenge sex from me. I turned her down and I think it broke her. I never could get things back on a friendly level with her because she was a very charismatic and otherwise optimistic person and for that I liked her. She chose a different path that I will not follow. I’m a Christian, I’m a family-man, I love kids, I love women, I love people. I welcome and encourage like-minded people to my home. To everyone else I’ll be honest: I think your ways are reckless and seeded with hatred and fear, I don’t want any part in that.
L 188
I thought I found the love of my when I was IM back and forth for 3 days with a woman, but as soon as I sent her my picture, she said “OMG” and click, she turned off her IM. I’m a pretty good looking Asian guy and I fee embarrassed about it. I’ve tried eHarmony, match, yahoo, okcupid, plentryoffish, adultfinder, etc and none of them worked, I wonder if it’s because I’m Asian?
irish 189
I am a 27yr old girl and I gave internet dating a go just to see what all the fuss was about.Within my first hour on the site I was bombarded with emails,some that made my skin crawl and some that were just nice and some that were plain SNORE BORE! But on my 2nd day I got an email for a guy which was different and stood out from all the others and so did his profile.We seemed to get on really well chatting online,then over the phone and eventually we went on a date.Our first date was amazing and I’m very happy to say that things have just skyrocketed since then and im blissfully happy and in love with this guy now for the past year so I have to say that internet dating really gets a thumbs up from me!
Phil 190
I find it nearly impossible to get a response to my emails online let alone a date. Am I the only one having such bad luck?
Phil
Festo 191
l tried this online dating for 5 years now
i have met so many girls
but this thing doesn’t work because most men and women lies
i have talked to my friends and some says it only works for 1 out of 1000
mike 192
I am a 65 year old male, successful, semi retired with an active, outdoor part time job. I’ve raised 4 kids,look about 40-50, I’m told-seriously, it’s just good genes, not working out or anything like that. In fact, I look better than most 40-50 year olds these days, because there are so many fat people today. Anyway, I’ve done online dating and encountered, by dating them, women who were prima donnas, princesses, narcisists and just plain wackos looking for attention; in short, most western women types. They were also goldiggers, at least to some degree. I’m used to something different, so I am now online with an eastern european website (a reputable one) and have met more traditional women who put their men first and feel that their men, in return, should lead the family and in short, be responsible adults. Plus, the women are beautiful and totally dedicated to their man-my friend married one, a Russian, a blonde beauty and an electrical engineer to boot. I’ll be visiting Ukraine shortly to meet a few and one in particular. Thought I’d add this to the conversation since it is so difficult to find a normal woman in the US any more.
Andre 193
Easy to say: online dating is not necessarily meant to work. It is a virtual place that replicates what happens in the real world: women get courted by legions of men, who usually have to stick it out until they get a woman who eventually gets tired of playing hard to get. Once I posted a false profile: healthy, retired stockbroker, age 60, with all his children married. In three minutes, my box was flooded with women in their thirties who wanted to get to know me. COIN AND LOIN, GUYS, COIN AND LOIN…
Goldie 194
@ Mike #192
Don’t know if they’re still together or not, I haven’t seen them since.
Then again, would you want to be with a woman like that anyway?
” Thought I’d add this to the conversation since it is so difficult to find a normal woman in the US any more.”
I don’t even know how to say this in a non-offensive way, so apologize in advance. But, in the context of the rest of your comment, this phrase sounded a lot like “it’s so difficult to find good help these days”.
Maybe it rubbed me the wrong way because I’m originally from that part of the world myself, and a lot of men here are miles off on their assessment of Russian women. I’ve seen guys go on those sites hoping to find a, I don’t know, free housekeeper/maid/cook/cleaning lady that will also look great and fulfill all of their sexual needs, only to be disappointed bitterly a few years later. You’ve got to take it into account that in the former Soviet Union, college education has been free for, oh, nearly a hundred years, and that women have been going into technical professions and working outside of home for generations. They are used to having a full life, a career, interests outside of home, at least if my mother and grandmother are any indication. They are not used to sitting home all day waiting on their man hand and foot. Now economy was bad when I left 15 years ago, and for some women it might be worse now, so they might be looking to get out of the country for economic reasons, especially if they have children. I’ve seen this happen. Most of the time, in the end, the woman leaves if she can. Then the ex-husband becomes one of the guys that go around warning people about dating Russian women – I kid you not, I’ve had guys tell me that their friends and family were warning them about dating me. “Be careful, they’re all after your money” LOL
Just warning you, you may want to keep your expectations reasonable. You sound like you’re setting yourself up for disappointment because you’re looking for a woman that does not exist on this planet in this century (“totally dedicated to their man”? what does this even mean? Any time I try to imagine someone totally dedicated to their man, I see a sheepdog.)
My first year here, at a party, someone introduced me to the host’s SIL, a 25yo woman from Russia who had a 2yo daughter from her previous marriage. Her husband was in his 50s with five kids in elementary and middle school. Found her online. She was a pediatrician by profession – he told her “you will never work outside of home”. Bought her a van, taught her to drive it, and put her in charge of cooking, cleaning, driving everyone to activities, and otherwise taking care of a family of eight. She told me she’d been looking to marry an American man, because she had to get out of her home town. Crime rate was through the roof and she was worried for her daughter’s future. She basically sold herself into slavery for her daughter
@ L #188 – wow, sorry this happened to you
Nicole 195
@Goldie, whenever American men start complaining about how awful American women are, it is time to tune out.
This guy is claiming that at 65, he looks 40, so my inference is that he can’t believe that the 28-38 year old women that he is trying to contact aren’t into it. I’m sure he looks at pictures of women in their 50′s and 60′s and doesn’t think he looks like them. I’m convinced that a lot of people have fun house mirrors in their homes to always turn to the same tired cliche of looking like they are 20 years younger than they actual age. Being fit at 65 does not equate to looking 35-40. Not to people who are really that age (people are never good at knowing what people who are much older or much younger than them typically look like).
So instead, he turns to women in another country who are desperate to escape, and convinces himself that they really just naturally love 65 year old men (and I’m sorry, you won’t look YOUNGER than a fat 40 year old, no matter how much you think you do).
Not sure what Eastern European country you are from, but I visited Russia, and people were very open about the fact that while there is a small, monied, elite, a lot of people are still desperately poor, and a LOT of young women who have good educations have no prospects for supporting themselves. I’ve run across many well educated European women who went into service jobs here in the U.S. But the point was to get here.
Goldie 196
@ Nicole, LOL @ fun house mirrors.
“This guy is claiming that at 65, he looks 40, so my inference is that he can’t believe that the 28-38 year old women that he is trying to contact aren’t into it.”
Oh, he says they are into it… just for the wrong reasons. Surprise, surprise
I had a 67yo contact me on Match, and then we ran into each other at a meetup group. I’ll give it to the guy, he looked great! Amazing shape for a 67-year-old. But he did not look like a 40yo. He looked like a guy in his sixties in great shape. He actually looked like my Dad! (who is 73 and also in great shape) No way am I going to date anyone who looks like my Dad, no matter how fit, rich and awesome they are, it would still feel creepy and weird! He told me he was looking for much younger women, because women his age couldn’t keep up with him. Things started out very nice and friendly — I told him that I wasn’t going to date him because I wasn’t comfortable with the age difference, and he was very understanding — but somehow ended with me being accused of having “age discrimination issues” and the man telling me that he had women my age and younger wanting to meet with him on Match, (so there must be something wrong with me…?) He fit Andre’s fake profile perfectly BTW: retired stockbroker, fit, kids all grown and out of the house… If I hadn’t met the man in person, I’d have thought it was Andre!
He was actually the second wealthy 67yo to contact me on Match. Part of me kind of feels bad for the guys in their 60s who post their (substantial) income online, along with their upper-class-neighborhood locations, go after women in their 30s and 40s, and expect these women to date them for themselves and not for their money. But they seem to be quite happy in their denial, so why spoil things for them.
Nicole 197
@Goldie…too funny.
Yes, exactly. I have seen older men who work out and have all of their hair, haven’t gone grey, and look good for their age. But they do not look MY age (30 something). I mean, even a dumpy guy who is bald at 35 still has smooth, full skin. There are just things that happen to your body that no amount of exercise or surgery can erase.
Do I know people who are 20 years older than me who could run circles around me? Yes. But does anything about their skin, hair, teeth, or general aura make them look youthful. No.
Have you heard of the term “silver fox”? That is what some of these guys might be. But they will NEVER look like a 35 year old even if they can do an Iron Man and the 35 year cannot run across the street.
Did you ask that 67 year old man why he wasn’t then dating one of his many Match admirers instead of trying to convince you to go out with him?
Yes, this commenter did find younger women but I meant that in reference to his comment about how all American women were “crazy” he was referring to the fact that young American women wanted nothing to do with him. Yes, very crazy that they don’t want to be faced with changing both adult and baby diapers in the first 10 years of marriage…
There was a hilarious episode of Sex in the City where Samantha was courted by a wealthy 70 year old man. It was so funny. He was in great shape for his age too, and she thought she could do it but she too learned that there were some things that no amount of exercise or money or charm could do to make that man appealing to her like the men her own age (at the time on the show, 40 somethings).
Vicki 198
Online dating is great for practice-dating. A small percentage of online dating site users actually get into a relationship from a date they obtained through a dating website. I’ve dated online since at least 1999. I guess I’m a “serial dater” since none of those first dates developed into relationships. Only a handful resulted in 2nd or 3rd dates. After 10+ years of online dating, I’m ready to quit and find a real relationship. If I haven’t found one through an online dating site yet, then probably that’s a sign that online dating isn’t going to work for me. Interesting how Geoff admits he found his girlfriend after only 1 year of dating online. Wow, a whole year. Feeling your pain Geoff! LOL (Yes, I’m being sarcastic). If only I could meet someone that quickly online! It hasn’t worked for me. That doesn’t mean it won’t work for anyone, but I think some people just resonate better with the online dating “scene” than others do, and it is to their advantage to date online. If you haven’t had good results in only 1 month, or only 3 dates, it’s far too soon to throw in the towel. If you’ve been dating for several years online and still haven’t found anyone, then you can either just kick back and enjoy being a serial dater for a while, or if you’re a little more serious about actually getting into a relationship, you should probably try to meet other singles some other way. Try doing volunteer work, or tapping into your social network. Update your Facebook status to “single and available”, and post positive thoughts about your single life. Don’t post anything negative – your friends and friends of your friends are probably looking at your wall and thinking “gosh, he/she would be perfect for _____”. Post only stuff that would make you seem perfect for the kind of man/woman you’d want to meet. You’d be surprised how quickly single acquaintances come out of the woodwork and start “friending” you on Facebook, once you casually let it be known you’re single and searching. I have to admit, I like “The Secret”, and I don’t think making a list of soulmate qualities and meditating on how it would feel to be with your perfect partner is wrong. In fact, I think it can really help you stay focused on how you want to feel when you meet the right person, so you aren’t distracted by any “pretty faces” who make you feel insecure and unworthy. Whether I’ll “manifest” my perfect partner that way, I don’t know. I know that it feels good to spend 20 minutes a day visualizing how it will feel to be with the right man. Dating random people online, in quick succession, never made me feel good, although it probably improved my abilities make small talk, greet strangers with a smile, be pleasant and nice to people (whether I find them attractive or not) and just generally become a better conversationalist and fun “date”. It’s wasn’t a total loss, but I don’t miss dating online. I’m ready for the next thing. The thing that will work this time.
g 199
Well, I keep getting responses on okcupid (1/4 response rate), but they only run for 2-3 emails and then vanish (some nice girls too)… and on pof I get next to zero response to messages I send out… and quite a few messages from women I wouldn’t find attractive. It doesn’t work for me at all! I’ve been on 1 date in 8-9 months of so-called online dating… and the girl turned out to be nothing like her pic… and we didn’t click anyway! I know my profile is well written and it has been faved 3 times!
Another girl who messaged me first and swapped numbers keeps trying to arrange dates, but not keeping to them, then getting in contact again to arrange another date (been going on 7 months with her!) Major doh – major waste of time! I’m sure it’s done something positive for me, but I wouldn’t have done it if I knew how poor the catch would be! I joined OKC and POF to date women, not to endlessly send out emails, look at pictures, get rejected and my time wasted in various ways!!! doh! doh! doh! don’t do it baby!
Oh, but it works for some people. I think its down to looks. But whereas in the real world you will get somewhere if you look OK, on pof and OKC you only get somewhere if you are in the top 20%, if you’re a guy. Online for guys, I think, only works if you either have lower standards or you are very good looking (and I mean very) and just looking for short-term/ one night. My friend got quite a few lays off it… now he’s dating a girl much younger than him and they are very happy together (he didnt meet her on pof!).
James 200
Online Dating works but the success rate obviously depends on the quality of people you’re messaging. For example, a guy could get nearly 100% response rate, if he messages ugly women that are borderline clinically obese. On the other hand, if he messages reasonable to good looking, he can expect a massively lower response.
I must say that if you’re a guy, Online Dating works much much better if you’re taller than 5ft 10 especially if you’re in your 20s/early 30s. If you’re a decent looking taller man (preferrably 6ft +) with a well written profile, you’ll likely get messages and a decent response back from your emails. In fact, it’s worked out for 3 friends and one is now engaged. Yet, I must add the caveat that they’re all above 5ft 10 – 1 is 5ft 11, and 2 are 6ft 1.
However, if you’re decent/good looking guy but short (5ft 9 or less), then you might as well look into other avenues as online dating is likely to be a frustrating experience. It simply doesn’t matter whether you’ve got a good profile or write tailored messages, you’ll be overlooked. I know no one who’s shorter than average that internet dating has worked for.
But why is this the case? Women get so much more attention online than men (plus there are a lot more men on these sites). You’re in competition with hundreds of men at a time and if you have a negative physical trait that isn’t generally looked on favourably (lack of height), a well written, funny profile and even good photogenic pics are unlikely to compensate. A women who may consider you offline as suitable dating material (especially if you have lots of other positives going for you), will likely not give you the time of day online.
Sure, a short guy can have some success online if he’s willing to message women who are fat and/or ugly but what’s the point?! If you’re funny & intelligent, join a club and try to meet women in the real world – they’re far more likely to look past height offline than online. Get your self-respect back!
g 201
I’m 5 foot 10, 32 and find I can attract some nice women in the real world (just rubbish at approaching for dates + where I live isn’t very social)… yet pof hasn’t worked for me at all. My profile is well written. Its funny and has, as I’ve said, been faved 3 times. Now, I wouldn’t say I’m “hot”… and that’s what I’m thinking about these sites… if you’re a guy you have to actually be “hot” just to get what you could probably attracted walking through a superstore or at work.
Cher 202
Wow, I have been reading these for awhile, truthfully I have used online dating successfully for some time, granted there are real drawbacks, my last relationship was wonderful, he and I had great compatibility, amazing chemistry and would never have met had it not been for online dating BUT he never took down his profile, not sure why, he didn’t really give a reason and had I never noticed it was still up and he was checking it, we would still be together cuz things were going great. But I know better so I ended it. But I have met many men, some strange, some kind, some fun, some good looking and quite honestly I have met men that exist in the world today, I just happened to meet them online and most I never would have. Is it painful sometimes, yes, is it frustrating yes, but truthfully, if you are honest in your profile and provide a Head and Body shot for them then you know and they know and if you still want to meet, give it a chance. It really does take just ONE and every ONE is different just like the people you meet in 3D every day in the world. It’s that simple. Evan we love you and the service you give us to try to get us to that next step, thank you.
Jay 203
I wanted to advise (Geoff) in his statement that “there’s a lot more men than women“, to the contrary in actuality most dating sites have more women then men.
Use this link to help as a guide. It can pull the actual demographic data in terms of Male to Female ratios, ages, and even by race. Useful guide to help you decide which sites to join.
http://WWW.QUANTCAST.COM
g 204
Hey jay,
thats poss a good site, but if there is some evidence on there that says men/women ration is smaller than most men think, it might have been better to link to the actual data rather than the front page. It would be interesting to see.
To be honest most men say that when they do a male (looking for a female) and then the reverse, they tend to find a heck of a lot more males turning up than they do females in their area. I havent personally tried it, but i might
g
Rachel 205
Dating websites are for women who are beautiful and men who earn lots of cash if you don’t fit into either category don’t bother you are more likely to find someone offline.
MilkyMae 206
Good point Jay. I doesn’t seem that way until you are online for a while. When you’re looking for a certain level of education or certain relationship goals, the number of men gets even worse. When I see someone interesting online, I need to remind myself that the men/interesting-men ratio is not in my favor.
AlX 207
YOU ALL ARE SUCH !!!!!!
Instead of feeling sorry for yourselves, why not go learn the new skill you need to solve this problem?
I’ll start you off:
-Most of you do not want to solve the problem, just complain about it.
-Most of you males are beta, fragile, and afraid of women.
-Most of you females are egotistical, demanding, and want to be male. -Most of you speak like scientists – relax! You don’t have to go around flaunting your education.
-Most of you lack confidence, because you lack social skills, because you lack knowledge.
This should clear up about 95% of your problems. You’re welcome, you overgrown babies.
Btw, keep up the good work Katz! Oriental males with White women? The man is a miracle-worker for those males!
-AlX
Rebecca 208
I think dating is tougher in a bar or person what are the chances of meeting someone and you don’t know what that person is about.
Atleast online you get the basics about the person before you meet. Yes people can lie but they can do that in person as well.
NeverGiveUp 209
Dont blame the tools and system if it does not work for you. Change your attitude and and approach. Persist. When I started online dating I did what mostguys did. Boring profile. Boring email messages. Then I started doing researchbecause I got very little response. So changed profile and email messagesand started getting about 30% response.
Still was not getting response from some really attractive women I wanted to chat with. Made more changes…now I get close to 50% response. Great I thought. Now some of the really attractive women are responding
Next challenge: they get so many emails and there for are chatting to do many guys that I do get lost in the shuffle and our chats fizzle. So my next goal is to keep them interested and raise the attraction level to where I get a date asap. Persistence, knowledge, action is key.
Ren 210
I have found that online dating just doesn’t work for me. The men that I come across are only interested in one thing–sex.
What I find laughable is that while so many men have often complained that a lot of the hot women online aren’t real but rather models for porn sites, they should be happy. Since most of the men online are only looking for sex anyway they should be happy that porn sites are contacting them. I am of the belief that if a man is only looking for sex, he should hire prostitutes or enlist the services of web cam porn sites instead of going onto actual dating sites and wasting the time of women who actually seeking relationships. Why go on a dating site when you really aren’t interested in dating? I have found that many men online want to treat women like prostitutes and use dating sites to troll for sex because they don’t want to have to pay for it.
My profiles have clearly stated that I am looking for commitment yet men contact me for sex, asking if I want to meet them in hotels and all kinds of crazy nonsense like that, and then actually get offended when I tell them to go screw themselves. It’s ridiculous!
Anyway, Cilla makes some excellent points about attractiveness. I think everyone wants someone that they find physically attractive. There’s nothing wrong with that. I also get annoyed by the men who don’t take the time to take decent photographs. Some men even purposely put up their worst photos. I don’t want to see the following on the photos of the men who contact me:
-A dirty bedroom/dirty house in the background.
-A picture taken in a bathroom into the mirror.
-A picture with a woman.
-A picture with his kids.
-A picture that was taken from a distance.
-Shirtless pictures, especially when the guy isn’t even in good shape.
These sort of pictures are abound on the internet dating sites and for the record, men need to know that they are an absolute turn-off. Men don’t put as much of an effort into their pictures and I think that they should. We are living in the digital age and there’s just no reason why you can’t take a decent picture of yourself BY YOURSELF without the ex-girlfriend in the picture!
From the Single Parent Perspective:
A bit of advice for single dads with children under 18: You should NOT be surprised that a woman who has never had children wouldn’t want to date you. Why should she? Why would a single, childless women seeking to marry and have kids of her own want to take that on? Why would a woman used to having the freedom of being able to go out on dates and have sex with a man as she pleases without having to arrange childcare or ex visitation times be attracted to a man with 2 or 3 small children? What is the appeal or the benefit in that to her? It’s no reflection on whether or not the dad is a good guy, it really just isn’t an appealing lifestyle to a childless woman.
Just as men don’t want to be bothered with single moms, women who don’t have children don’t want to be bothered with single dads either. I am a single mom myself (my child is turning 16 this year) and I don’t want a date a man who has children younger than mine. If a guy is a dad with small children, I will only date him if he only has one child under 15. 2 or 3? Forget it! I find that a lot of men online who have children are only contacting women who don’t have children. They “demand” that childless women accept their children or get lost, yet they don’t want to date women who also have children and can relate to their circumstances.
The reason why I don’t want to date a man with small children as a parent myself is because I’ve spent most my 20′s and early 30′s dateless and alone or dating men who didn’t want to be serious with me because I had a small child. Also childcare was often a problem so I could even go out. Now that my daughter is a teen, will be driving soon and no longer requires babysitters, I feel that I have some of my freedom back. I can go on dates much easier now than I could when she was younger. I can go out with my friends now much easier than she was younger. A single dad with small kids isn’t available to go out that much and I am way passed my Saturday nights sitting at home watching Disney movies because I have no other choice. My daughter will be going to college in a couple of years and I am ready to enjoy my life and do the things I haven’t been able to do for raising her alone.
For a single woman who doesn’t have children, I’d imagine she wouldn’t want to spend her Friday and Saturday nights sitting on the couch watching Disney movies with her date and his kids either.
Though we as single parents want to espouse our own greatness, that we are good catches and our children are wonderful, I had to come to terms with the reality that I had to wait until my child got older to really attempt to date. Lucky for me I had her in my early 20′s and I’m still slim and look great at my age.
Zaq 211
@Ren
Based on your statements in your posts, I think we now know what you do want / not want.
You do not want men of any age who are out of shape
You do not want men who have children unless they are about to leave home
You do not want men whose children have left home if they are significantly older than you.
You do not want men who are unattractive, as you are thin with 32G breasts.
The ONLY men that are left are hot men significantly younger than you, that do not have children who desire an older woman with children for something other than sex.
SORTED ! What’s that – you’re having trouble with on line dating ?
Ren 212
@Ren
Based on your statements in your posts, I think we now know what you do want / not want.
You do not want men of any age who are out of shape.
No I don’t want someone who doesn’t take care of their body. The problem with is what? Would men look at me if I was overweight or obese? No they wouldn’t.
You do not want men who have children unless they are about to leave home
I said I prefer men with older children or not more than one small child because it is difficult to date with small children. I know that from personal experience. I know what it’s like to not be able to go on dates and spend time with someone for having a small child at home. I prefer someone with children my age so childcare is not an issue and we can go out and have our own time. I’ve spent enough years not having a full social life and don’t want to go back down that road. The problem with that is what?
You do not want men who are unattractive, as you are thin with 32G breasts.
Yes I want someone who is also physically appealing to me. If I’m not attracted, I can’t be intimate with them. Period. Why is it that men can be as they are and have the hot chick on their arm but the hot chick who wants to have an equally attractive mate is considered superficial and picky? Why the double standard? Women are supposed to give all men a fair shake but women don’t get that same concession.
The ONLY men that are left are hot men significantly younger than you, that do not have children who desire an older woman with children for something other than sex.
Again I never said I don’t want anyone without children, I prefer someone with older children or someone with no more than one small child. I’m seeing someone now who is younger than me and has 5 year old–and I DID NOT meet him online.
I also said that men my own age online don’t want women my age, they want younger and men I met in person in my age range are already married. I’m not into 50 or 60 year olds, so what does that leave me with. Since you seem to have me all figured out, who am I supposed to date then?
SORTED ! What’s that – you’re having trouble with on line dating ?
I started online dating when I was 24. I had the same problem with men online at 24, that I had at 34 and that I still continue come across at 38, which prompted me to come to the conclusion of taking all my ads down. Men online more often than not aren’t looking for anything serious with any woman of any age even though they say they are looking for relationships. My younger, single, never-married girlfriends with no children have the exact same problems with online dating that I do. It has not worked out any better for the younger, childless women that I know. Do I think online dating works? Yes, it works for some, but not most, male or female.
I have not even gone out on a date with anyone online in ages because before we can even get to planning a first date they start talking about sex.
You think you have me figured out but you don’t. Besides, why so angry at me?
Ren 213
@Zaq,
To add, I have a girlfriend who is 34 with no kids, never married and she still runs into age discrimination, claiming that men online who she wants to respond to don’t want women over 32. She complains the men that she does meet are socially inept. She is educated, attractive, also slim with a great figure, traveled, has a good job and is childless and she can’t find anyone either. So what’s her problem?
Zaq 214
@Ren
Not angry at all.
What you want is perfectly understandable, I follow your logic completely.
It is also completely unrealistic
You make high demands for what you want, but say little of what you offer in return.
You talk about superficial qualities. You do not talk about wanting someone who is kind. Someone who respects you.
You must remember that the man will be as superficial as you. This is a market after all. He will want the best person he can get considering his value.
He is handsome plus 500 points
He is in shape plus 500 points
He is young plus 500 points
He is confident plus 500 points
He is financially secure plus 1000 points
He wants a relationship plus 1000 points
You are in shape plus 500 points
You are not young minus 500 points
You have baggage minus 500 points
See the problem ? This isn’t a good transaction from his point of you.
He can get someone without children
He can get someone young
Then we have the scarcity issue. A man with this much value would be in extremely high demand because few men have these qualities.
And the reality of course is that he will have been snapped up by some young model who is actively building a young brood.
The situation is not hopeless as long as you compromise on something. He is young and hot, but he is a beta male who other men do not respect. He’s unemployed. He’s older etc.
Your friend sounds a catch, but I bet she is only attractive for a 32 year old. Sadly she is competing against 22 year olds and therefore loses.
She is single only because she has set the bar too high.
I bet she wants a man who is her ‘equal’. Someone educated, travelled, with a good job.
But she would NOT be his equal, because these things are ‘valuable’ only to women. If you like it is woman’s fault for prizing men with these qualities. If she valued men who were uneducated and unemployed she would get men her age no problem
Ren 215
@Zaq,
You are assuming that I have high demands. You speak as if men have the upper-hand regardless of their situation, that all men want younger women, blah, blah, blah. But because I said that I’m an older women who attracts nothing but younger men (as far as single men go), you are saying my demands are high. That is your opinion. Just because YOU feel that because of my age I’m deserving of or able to get only a certain type of man doesn’t make it a fact.
I don’t know what type of people your social circle consists of, but in mine, none of my professional male friends with money are in relationships or married to 22 year olds, nor did they pursue 22 year olds when they were single. Every professional man (or alpha-male as you put it) that I’ve ever known have always dated or married age-appropriate women.
I brought up superficial qualities of the sake of the other discussion–that older men aren’t the only ones who are desired by the young. Never did I say that the things I mentioned were the only important things. For some reason it bothered you that I said that because of my looks I attract more younger men than older. You’ve made that into something completely different.
“This is a market after all. He will want the best person he can get considering his value.”
You call me superficial but you are being equally so. You are saying that higher a man’s value is, the more likely he’s going to chose younger, because a younger woman is a better option to a high-value male. What’s not superficial about that? Wanting someone simply because they are younger is just as superficial as wanting someone because they are good-looking. None of the professional men I know married young model-type women. You live in a fantasy world where you think what celebritries and rock stars get is what all men get lol.
You say I have baggage. Are you referring to the fact that I have a child? Everyone has baggage whether they believe they have baggage or not. You mentioned that I can’t find anyone because I’m not willing to date someone significantly older with kids. Please tell me how a woman having kids is baggage but a man having kids isn’t baggage. Is a man who’s 45 and rich but divorced with 3 kids still considered an alpha-male or does he now have baggage and becomes a beta-male because he has kids? Is he still deserving of a 25 year-old, childless hot blonde?
You are saying a high-value male wouldn’t want me, yet you have no idea what kind of man I’d want. Never did I say anything about what kind of money a man makes and that I’m looking for a younger man or any man who’s rich. I could VERY easily get a 50 or 60 year-old man with money if money was all I cared about, as I have been approached by several of them online over the years. But I’m not attracted to significally older men. And I never have been. Even in my 20′s I never wanted a man significantly older than me just because he has money.
The situation is not hopeless as long as you compromise on something. He is young and hot, but he is a beta male who other men do not respect.
There you go again speaking in absolutes.
But she would NOT be his equal, because these things are ‘valuable’ only to women. If you like it is woman’s fault for prizing men with these qualities. If she valued men who were uneducated and unemployed she would get men her age no problem.
Of all the men in her social circle her age who has the same qualities that she does (which I agree that masculine qualities valued by women), none of them married younger women. All her male friends who equally has what she has married women the same age as them. You make it seem as if men with money marrying younger women is the common occurence when it’s not.
Evan pointed out the fact that these types of marriages make up only 5% of all marriages.
Zaq 216
@Ren
Now who is angry?
First of all look at the data – don’t take my word for it.
Google” the case for an older woman” research from OK Cupid dating site from tens of thousands of male female interactions.
“the median 30 year old man spends as much time messaging teenage girls as he does women his own age”
“… a woman’s desirability peaks at 21 …”
By the way that 5% statistic is completely wrong, which Evan has now acknowledged. (EMK note: it’s not completely wrong, Zac. 5% of all marriages have age spans over 10 years. That number goes down as people get older.)
Is this about being shallow ? No, I don’t think anyone is shallow for being attracted to a certain person. We do however have to acknowledge the factors which may make this person unattainable.
What is frustrating you, and every other woman over a certain age (and rightly so by the way) is that men, irrespective of their age, pursue younger women. There appears to be a double standard here.
What frustrates men is that they do not reject women because they are unemployed, or don’t earn much, or do not possess advanced qualifications. They are not hung up on height issues, or social status.
Yet THEY are rejected for not possessing these qualities. They would rightly claim that there appears to be a double standard here.
Is there a double standard ? NO ! – men and women just want different things. It is in their nature to want different things.
Men are programmed to spread their seed with as many women as possible. As you have surmised, men will lower their physical standards to have sex with a woman they would otherwise not commit to. AVERAGE women.
Women desire the best men available – they do not want AVERAGE men.
If a woman wants a tall man, well only 15% of the men are above 6 feet. Comparatively few men have higher qualifications, or a good income.
We can talk in generalisations here. Most women are competing for a scarce resource.
Women’s best strategy is tying down a guy when they are at the peak of their attractiveness – at college. Since then your friend’s value has fallen, at the same time that the men she knew in colleges value has shot up.
The good news for you is that because cash is not important to you – that Pizza delivery guy is all yours !!
Evan Marc Katz 217
The real point, Zac, is that normal people do end up with normal people. Not everyone’s in the top 15%, although most would like to think they are. So anyone who experiences this disconnect between wanting people who don’t want them would be better served by overriding their biological impulses and finding a happy, healthy relationship with someone that he/she isn’t wildly, chemically, blindly attracted to. That comprises MOST relationships, including most happy ones. People who go for attraction first often put up with less than stellar behavior in other areas. This seems to get lost by the men who like to date their daughters. If I, at 39, couldn’t tolerate being around a 25 year old for long, how can someone who is 50? He’s either got a much higher tolerance for immaturity and lack of life experience, a painful jones for young flesh, or a very short-sighted world view where he doesn’t realize that in a few years, he’s going to be really tired of the fact that she wants to hang out with her young girlfriends while he wants to stay home. Anyone who makes relationship decisions simply based on biological attraction is going to eventually pay the piper. And all your citing about what men “really” want doesn’t change that, Zac. I might “really” want to kill someone who cut me off on the highway; I can thankfully overcome that impulse to take a deep breath at the side of the road. We’re humans. We’re not slaves to our biology.
Zaq 218
@Evan
I agree with you. The biology is only trying to replicate the genes – doesn’t care less about us once we’ve done our “duty” . Women therefore attracted to narcissists and men to “children”.
I had a long term relationship with someone suffering from Bi-Polar. Believe me, 25 year olds are far more stable and level headed !
KINDNESS is the most important characteristic we should look for in a mate, above all physical factors.
However, I don’t agree that we can easily override biology. We ignore its powerful effects at out peril. We may be able to suppress the effects of testosterone and adrenaline because they have short duration effects.
However one of the reasons women should not have sex early in a relationship is because Oxytocin released into her brain could induce her to form a pair bond with someone she would otherwise consider to be inappropriate. A drug that makes you trust people you shouldn’t ! The effect of this could last 18 months or more. She wakes one morning and thinks “who the hell is this guy ?”
Once you say that there must be some element of physical attraction – that is 100% biology. You have now acknowledged that we are indeed its slave.
I think it may be easier for men, in that we naturally lower the bar to enable as many viable females to be acceptable. We do not just go for 10s, so we can look for positive character traits.
Ren 219
@Zaq,
I will say this and from this point ignore you because you are clearly trying to pick a fight with me because you don’t like something I’ve said, when there’s no fight to be had. You are accusing me of being angry when I’m angry at all. You are the one following me across Evan’s blog to attack thnngs that I’ve said, not the other way around.
My last relationship was with an emergency room physican 7 years my junior who is still heavily pursuing me, yet I am the one who decided that it’s best for us not to be together for reasons I choose not to go into. He’s what you’d call an alpha-male, yet he’s the 32 year old chasing the 38 year old single mom. In fact, it was him who asked me out in the first place, and he continues to pursue me.
You clearly want to believe whatever you want to believe about me and my worthiness if having certain types of men. You say whatever you need to say to make yourself feel good. I’vee never had to date the pizza delivery guy before, and I don’t have to date him now. I’ve dated nothing but educated professionals, most of whom are younger than me. That bothers you for some reason. That’s your problem, not mine.
You have a nice day.
Russ 220
I have been doing the online dating service for awhile and I have not had any luck. I am a good looking guy with a great education and job along with a great sense of humor and I have not received any dates with whom I am attracted to. I am a very honest person guy and and I appreciate honesty and I am not looking to get laid, all I want is to meet a girl and get to know her and proceed from there. So far my efforts have been fruitless with my emails or likes or winks. I use the dating sites because I don’t drink or go to bars and I have no connections outside of work that will allow me to meet single females outside of work. I do not go to church because I am agnostic which is where people say is the place to meet single ladies. I’m at a ropes end trying to find women who may want to be dated by me and I don’t know where to turn.
Justine 221
I dated online, off and on, for thirteen years, and I remain unmarried. And I’m pretty! And female! And a proverbial glass half-full person (or glass quarter-full, anyway, because I have a brain)! And I wanted to re-marry after my divorce! I accept my situation, but am inclined to think making a permanent and substantial connection via online dating is analogous to winning the lottery. Still, I don’t want to poison the well. This is, simply, my story.
Evan Marc Katz 222
Except it’s not analogous to winning the lottery, Justine. One fifth of ALL marriages in the past 3 years started online. Double the number of marriages that began at bars and clubs. If it’s not working for you, you’re not doing it right.
Zaq 223
Evan – where do you get these statistics from?
I always ask the question, does this accord with my experience.
I know many of my single friends that have tried online dating. The number that have been successful can be counted on the fingers of a double arm amputee. NONE. ZERO.
I have come across people who have met that way, but then I meet lots of people.
An international study in 2011 showed that less than 6% of co habiting people met on a dating site – that’s 1 in 17. Not 1 in 4.
Most people using online dating sites (over 60%) never even go on a date. NONE. ZERO
Yes, I do realise that you have the tools to “game” the system Evan, and yes 6% is better than nothing, and it IS getting better. BUT I can’t believe anyone reading this blog is going to believe 1 in 4.
Evan Marc Katz 224
Zaq,
I’m not going to deny your experience. Nor will I deny the experiences of all of your friends. And if you’ve found a statistic that says that 60% of people who go online never go on a date, I won’t even fight it. I will just say that it proves that the majority of people NEED HELP in dating online.
Still, your belief that online dating is somehow a scam is patently false. My sister met her husband online (Nerve.com). My sister’s best friend met her husband online (eHarmony). My wife’s best friend met her husband online (Match). My childhood best friend met her husband online (eHarmony). I’ve had dozens of private clients and hundreds of readers find their spouses online.
And this study of 7000 recently married people produced the statistic that 17% of all marriages in the past three years began online. Even though the study was commissioned by Match, I wouldn’t discount it. PlentyOfFish has thousands of success stories as well. Personally, I used JDate for years and while I didn’t meet my Catholic wife there, it’s ubiquitous in the community.
And, for what it’s worth, just because the majority of people fail doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with online dating. The majority of writers fail. The majority of people who want to be doctors fail. The majority of small businesses fail. The majority of marriages fail. Doesn’t mean you shouldn’t become a writer, doctor, small business owner or husband. It does mean that SOMEONE succeeds – if he’s ingenious, hardworking, persistent, and clever. Same goes for your experience on Match.com. SOMEONE is succeeding. Why not you and your friends?
fem 225
met in real someone date?
Im women, 31 years old, working, i dont have social friends for sure, just co workers formal relationship, i have a friend mostly they are maried, or if not maried they are not attractive for me, i dont like party, i have my own hoby’s, travelling, mostly traveling alone.
Thats why i choise online dating, i found attracted guy of me. So far he is Nice, kind, educated, hand some.We usually online dating on a week end, chating and video webcam. We have been dating online about more than one year, we have not met yet. (pitty). The problem we are long distance. He asured me, thats long distance is no problem, there are lot of flight. But i did not expected of our relation. BUt he looks like resist our relationship.
My friends remind to be aware with scam on dating online, but if its scam, why he keeps this relationship. I have no idea. Until now, i m still keep dating online with him.
Paragon 226
@ 219
“My last relationship was with an emergency room physican 7 years my junior who is still heavily pursuing me, yet I am the
one who decided that it’s best for us not to be together for reasons I choose not to go into. He’s what you’d call an alpha-male, yet he’s the 32 year old chasing the 38 year old single mom.”
Sorry, but he may be a high ranking male in the OR, but in the mating landscape, a high ranking male would be more likely to (successfully) pursue a woman 7 years his junior.
Unless you are *very* exceptional(and I am not saying you’re not).
“You clearly want to believe whatever you want to believe about me and my worthiness if having certain types of men. You say whatever you need to say to make yourself feel good. I’vee never had to date the pizza delivery guy before, and I don’t have to date him now. I’ve dated nothing but educated professionals, most of whom are younger than me. That bothers you for some reason. That’s your problem, not mine.”
Which begs the question of your expressed dissatisfaction over the years.
Paragon 227
@ 224
I can only say that it worked for me(beyond my wildest dreams), but only after I made some rather critical observations, and changes(apologies for the anecdote).
Namely, that it is useful to assume that anyone who is searching without success(like I was), is deficient in some respect, given that only such an assumption can lend to a testable methodology(ie. we can only realistically experiment with our own behaviors – when it comes to finding a mutually receptive mate).
Personally, I observe that the longer someone is ‘searching’ without success, the more maladapted they apparently are, to achieving success – which would seem to weigh against our prospects, the older our cohort(from experience, I certainly found my female peers to be far less agreeable a prospect than younger ones, hence my match in a woman 13 years my junior, being in my late 30′s myself).
So, all we can do is try to position those determinate variables which weigh against our prospects, in such a way that maximizes favorable interactions with the more random variables.
Admittedly, I should expect that this is easier to reconcile for a male, than a female who is accustomed to a more passive
role in achieving her goals(hence I expect more women would rationalize their discontent as a conscious choice to remain single, where it is actually just a convoluted means of reducing cognitive dissonance).
Tia 228
i agree with what Evan said about it maximizing our chances, thats what it does. out of 20 guys or girls, 3 of them may respond or you may respond to,and you may end up dating 2 of or them, or 1.
it depends on your temperament also, not everyone is a ” bounce back after a mishap” type of person, after being lied to, jerked around and / or disrespected, some people really are better moving on from online dating or taking breaks.
i think you can become bitter unless you realize what it is, just an oppurtunity to maximize your chances of meeting someone. and don’t stop looking in “real life” go out, volunteer, hang out with friends, etc. dont put all your eggs in one basket.
it is really hard to meet people these days, to connect, we are competing with so much, technology, a society driven by looks, sex and youth, finding that person who genuinely wants a connection may not be easy.
but the good thing is, hopefully your’e just looking for one person, not everyone. I am not saying we all fall in love at the end and live happilly ever after, im not sure what the answers are, but I do believe in love and It snot something im willing to give up on quite yet at 33
debby 229
I have been in the online dating scene on & off for almost a year now. When it comes to the men choosing I can see its all about pictures. I have even checked the women’s profiles to view the “competition” and see what I may be doing wrong and found all pics of women laying on their beds or showing way too much cleavage. If I don’t dress that way when I am infront of people why would I post pics of me that way? To get responses I guess
My thing is …the way I am online or on the phone is how I am when you meet me.
I dated a man for about 2 months and all he could ever speak about was the dating site. Who messaged him lately & what freaks were on there & how women showed too much of their bodies. After the 2 months & still feeling like I was in the running for some prized position he introduced me to his kids which I found to be odd & a week later listed himself on facebook as “in a relationship” but it wasn’t with me it was with a tight mini skirted woman who showed a lot of cleavage. And they say women are hard to figure out lol.
Meg 230
I tried the internet dating for about 3 months before I gave up. I’m a 40-year-old above average-looking (at least a 6, maybe a 7 on a good day or a 4 first thing in the morning when my allergies are acting up–haha) divorced woman with a good, STABLE job, a Masters degree, and paying for my own house, vehicle and all living expenses (for me and two VERY high energy large dogs). I consider my build to be “average” because my definition of “Athletic” is along the lines of Olympians and other lean professional athletes. However, according to a few web sites I’ve seen, the “average” American woman is a size 14, whereas I’m 5′-5″ and between a size 8 and a size 10 (depending on who makes the clothes), so how do I define MY build? I am not getting any form of alimony from my ex because I don’t need it, and I don’t have any children. Can somebody please explain to me why when I set my “criteria” for men as someone with at minimum “some” college (that’s after downgrading it from a minimum of a Bachelor’s degree), NO kids (been there, done that stepmom thing for over 13 years), someone who makes at least as much money as I do (in the $50,000 – $100,000 range) and the ability to write beyond the level of a 5th grader, I end up getting emails like what’s mentioned in post # 59 from men without so much as a High School diploma? WTF?!? I’ve reached out and contacted potential “matches” that didn’t even have a picture posted, but I don’t get replies from them. Instead, I get the guys who immediately reach out (some before I even have a chance to go back and tweak my profile a bit) without bothering to read what I’m looking for. Forgive me for my lack of patience, but I believe stupid should hurt and have very little tolerance for poorly-written profiles, guys that list everything they don’t want in a woman, or guys that think only “hot” women are worth pursuing.
Mini 231
Meg, three months? You give up too easily.
I tried online dating for about 14 months, during which time I got a bunch of messages from unsuitable guys, contacted a few interesting guys I never got a reply from, got pursued (unsuccessfully) by a couple of married cheaters, dated one fellow who disappeared after three dates, had one spectacular 2-month near-miss (mutually smitten initially, but he got distant and ambivalent fast), groused about how only the unattractive and uneducated ones messaged me, and then met the unbelievably wonderful boyfriend I have now. Smart, kind, sexy, honest, educated, devoted, funny… I’m glad I didn’t get impatient and give up after a few months.
Meg 232
Okay, Mini… Any suggestions on a good site to try? I initially tried Plenty of Fish (just for 3 days, so technically that doesn’t count, right?), then was on Match.com for 3 months. The major problem I had with both sites is that they’d come up with a lot of guys with a High School diploma (or less), guys that either already had children or “definitely” wanted them, or guys WAY older than me (no thank you; I don’t care if you’re rich) when I would specifically annotate that was NOT what I am looking for. Let’s be realistic– I’m 40 years old; if you “definitely” want to have children, I think you should look for someone younger— plain & simple (I’m all for being the cool Aunt someday), and if you have children (minors in particular), I think you should be spending more quality time with them instead of looking for a new mommy for them. And when I’d do what I thought was the polite thing to do by replying to the emails I got and telling them I didn’t feel we were a match, then either I’d get a nasty reply or they saw it as some open line of communication and would continue to pester me with more emails or by trying to initiate a chat session while I was online, thereby completely ignoring the facts that 1) I just told them no thank you and 2) it says right in my profile what I’m looking for, and they’re not it. I was fairly liberal in my criteria as far as height, color of eyes & hair go, and stated I was okay with a build anywhere from “Athletic” to “average” to “a few pounds over.” Yes, obese guys are out— sorry. I just feel if you don’t care enough about yourself to do something about excess weight, then don’t expect me to be your personal trainer & dietician because I’m trying to make sure I eat right and don’t go up a dress size, which can be a real challenge where I work.
So explain to me how to better ”weed out” the ones who don’t meet my criteria? I am a successful, intelligent woman by my own right, and as much as I know I deserve better than to settle for someone because I’ve had to continually lower what criteria I had, I also know there’s a man out there that deserves the best from me, and deserves someone who isn’t “settling.”
Evan Marc Katz 233
@Meg – http://www.findingtheoneonline.com – It’s not about which website you’re on. It’s about how you use it. There are good men everywhere.
James 234
I’ve used online dating quite a bit over the years. However, the only women I can recall who ever gave me attention were either the overly obese or the kind who had numerous children (I’m not willing to go on dates with single mothers, not that they have the time anyways).
Though I don’t go on dates very often from real life, I have gone out with some women who were very attractive. Never got anything like that from online.
My advice to guys: if you don’t have the guts to ask women out in real life, you deserve the trash you will get from online dating.
Also, I’ve tried the thing where I put up a pic of a male model and I can verify women go ga ga for that. What’s worse, a lot of these women are the type who put the crap in their profiles about “want a good man” or talk about how they just want a nice guy. Yet these women will be the first to turn down nice messages from a guy and beg the hot guy to meet them. Are these really the type of women you should be trying to date?
Fiona 235
I can’t speak for the US but in the UK the only people I personally know that had success on line seem to be gay men. For women in their late 30s I think online dating is not the best medium because a lot of men the same age think they want someone younger so you won’t necessarily show up in their online searches. In real life though men in their thirties are actually attracted to women their age. A night out last night with a hot 28 year old female friend resulted in men in the attractive alpha men in their twenties pursuing her and the attractive alpha men in their thirties pursuing me. I was a bit surprised about that because I was beginning to think I was not attractive any more given the types of men contacting me online. I think online can really skew your self image of how attractive you are in the real world. In the real world men my age see me as “very pretty”. Online they may not even know that I exist. The challenge is where to find single men in the same age group in the real world outside of the bar scene.
Ellen 236
I found my bf online and he told me recently I was the first woman in his life his age he has dated . I retorted – “see how well that strategy worked?!” (he has never found “the one” til me he says). sigh.
I don’t usually photograph well so put about 6 full body shots of me online (and one or two closeups) when I was dating. That way, men could get a real feel for my physicality.
It must have worked ’cause while dating I had men contact me (or contact me back) ranging in age from 33-62! lol
If you are “very pretty” in real life than grab the best amateur or professional photographer and have him/her take a lot of photos til that prettiness comes across online. Btw, I met men I thought were borderline in attractiveness (borderline in terms of what I would find attractive) and often when they showed up I noticed they were better looking. Generally true of lots of folks imo. Good luck.
Ellen 237
Oh, meant to include that I took most of the body shots using a time-release shutter and the close-ups were done by professional photographers. Like you, I am told I am very pretty also, but it took professionals to capture it. Once, I heard a model agent/scout comment that the camera just doesn’t ”like” some very pretty women. It’s truly a mystery. I only look good in extreme close-ups. Go figure.
Tammy 238
I am divorced, no kids, 47, very fit, attractive woman. I am educated and live in smaller city in Canada. I have been using on line dating for about 1.5 years. I have gone on over 40 1st dates in that time frame, so no problem getting dates. Some I agreed to second date, others no, just the way it is.
I have had as Evan has indicated, many bad dating stories, from getting stuck with bills to often, no offer to half it even, sent gross pics, crude remarks, guy tried to stick his hand down my pants at a restaurant. You name it!
I have dated in all sorts of age ranges, some older, some more my age and a lot of real young ones. They all messaged me, I never initiate contact. Call me a bit old fashioned.
I have a put together honest profile with head and full body pics that are current. I have something about me and also a bit about what I am seeking.
I get lots of messages.
I have currently been dating a guy from an on-line site for about 3 months. His is much younger (22 years my jr, oh well haha) he is fun, charming and has a lot of ambition and smarts. Not at the stage of hey lets take our profiles down, but who knows, one date at a time, see where it goes.
I agree with Evan on this. On line dating creates opportunites where none previously existed. I am not, never was a club/bar type woman and to be honest the idea of some guy half in the bag slobbering on me does not seem that appealing. On line dating does allow for much more controlled filtering.
As for family introducing me to their friends etc. hey I am an only child, so were my parents so not alot of ‘family’ here to intruduce me to anyone. I don’t close the door on other ways of meeting people such as through various sports I’m involved with etc…but truly on line dating is just another way to meet people and people you in real life you may never have met.
It’s all about Kissing some Frogs and maybe you will finding your Prince or Princess. All it takes is one. You just have to be patient, at times tollerant and have a good out look on it.
Elen 239
Mike, I would like to warn you about the Eastern-European women, and Ukraine ones for that matter also.
I am from Eastern Europe myself, one of the Baltic States, where life is a little bit better and not as destitute as in Ukraine, Belarussia and Russia.
These women know exactly what they are doing. They all want to get married to an American guy and even 20 year olds will not turn down a guy triple their age.
I know a Ukraine girl who’s 22 and his American husband is over 60, it’s creepy…
She only used him to get a green card and now is sleeping around with rich men for money, basically she is a prostitute. She will not go on a date unless you put 500$ on the table.
All those women I know are very high-maintenance, they all have boob-jobs done, noses, teeth, botox, you name it. They look like plastic Barbie-dolls.
And it’s never enough.
They look good, work out and are probably whores in bed, but that is their only function.
A lot of them are scammers also. Don’t ever send money to anybody for any planetickets or nothing.
I know married Ukraine women who live in US and put up a fake profile online and lie about being in Ukraine and needing money and men actually send them money. It’s supereasy, since there are a lot of desperate older single men I guess.
I know men want the hot and young females, but watch out what you’re getting into. Russian women are experts in getting money and stuff from men and they do it so subtly, you will not even realize, they purr like kittens and make you feel like a king.
Unless you have tons of disposable money or very good income, it will cost you a fortune.
Their role is to be pretty and hot and satisfy you and your job is to pay for it.
Oh and don’t expect them to take care of your house, be ready to pay for laundry service, a housekeeper and babysitter, and also go out to expensive restaurants every night. And of course luxury vacations every 3 months and trips to Ukraine every year to show off.
There are thousands of Russians and Eastern-Europeans here and they all compete with each-other. Within days she will become friends with them and the competition is on, so put your wallet ready.
They will seem very sweet and not asking for much when in Ukraine, but once here in US, they know that men have money here and they will want everything and the most expensive and more and more. They will get spoiled and greedy like American women.
I have been here for 7 years and am attractive fit blond and get so much attention nomatter where I go, my husband is stressed out
For pretty foreign females, US is the playground. And Russian women know how to play it.