Apr04

Does Online Dating Even Work?!

05:10 pm on Apr 4th 2007 Evan Marc Katz

Finding the One Online is a comprehensive, life-changing program that covers everything I teach my clients about online dating. If you want to get your love life on track and aren't sure where to start, Finding the One Online is the best investment you can make.

138 Comments »Filed Under Favorites, Online Dating Tips & Advice

138 Responses to “Does Online Dating Even Work?!”

1. Shrew Apr 4th 2007 at 11:22 pm 1

   When my father heard I was online dating he was deeply sceptical. He told me a story about a friend of his whose internet date had turned out to be morbidly obese as evidence that it was an avenue to be avioded at all costs. When I responded that

   a) There are worse things in life then having dinner with someone who you find unattractive, and
   b) His friend was at fault for not exchanging photos before meeting up

   he was totally unconvinced, and more then a tad miffed that i should question his judgement. (Bear in mind that there weren’t even PCs around he was last single)

   Anyway, my dad’s friend has subsequently met a great woman on the internet with whom he is in a committed relationship. Has my dad’s attitude changed- of course not- in fact i doubt he even recognises a connection.

   My point, is that when people decide they’re going to form a negative opinion about something- negatively and consistency go out the window- and that’s why the internet horror stories receive such disproportionate prominence

2. Loverville Apr 5th 2007 at 05:44 am 2

   Like you said… of course it has its pros and cons, like anything else in life.

   I had a four-year relationship with someone I met online. And I’ve also met inconsiderate guys who “disappeared”, smart guys, not-so-smart guys, great guys, fun guys, guys who liked me (but the feeling wasn’t mutual), as well as the other way around. All types.

   Yes, it’s a numbers game. I believe that you have to put yourself out there and take a chance if you’d like to meet someone.

3. Janet Apr 5th 2007 at 09:43 pm 3

   I think you’re totally right that online dating is much better than the alternatives, even if it’s not perfect, but your reply begged the question.

   The reader raised specific and common problems that people have with online dating, and you probably have better insight than anyone how to deal with them. For instance:

   1. What’s a normal response rate? Should a guy who gets 5% response rate try to improve something, or should he feel like that’s about average?

   2. If a woman gets a flood of emails on a dating site, how can she weed through them quickly and fairly?

   I’ve really enjoyed reading your blog.
   Cheers,

   Janet

4. Lanie Aug 8th 2007 at 02:32 pm 4

   OK, here’s my take on the situation,

   Dating online works. You gotta look at it in a freakonomics style! And it seems every man on my dating website has read the darn book, so you guys might be able to relate to this and ladies, listen up, it works!

   There are a given number of possibilites out there in the world for you. You date online, and you expand your possibilities for meeting a match. But as there are a lots of frogs in the real world, there are a lot of cyber frogs as well. So, if you get hundreds of responses as a woman, you’ve got to cull through the bogs to get to the 3-5% that are worth responding to. Then of that 3-5%, the rate of success may only be 1. BUT 1 is all you need!! So, to answer teh rate of return for guys: if the standard guy puts out 50 fishing nets for a fish and he gets a couple responses back, that falls in line with our response rate as women!

   As for women weeding through the hundreds of ads quickly, let’s be honest, go for the ones that are aesthetically pleasing to YOUR eye, keep a list of possible secondary ones and then discard the others. When you’ve picked a handful of ones that look most promising, take the time to really read their profiles and be honest with yourself!!

   My friends and I have foudn this process works pretty well and quickly!
   Good luck
   Happy Matching!

5. hunter Sep 8th 2007 at 04:04 pm 5

   I heard, there are only, three dating sites, that have the most people on it. I believe it was match, american singles, and Yahoo. Even then, the ratio, if you are in your 20’s, is not good for men, but, I was told, it increases if you are looking for a mature woman….

6. Collins Nov 12th 2007 at 12:33 pm 6

   Online dating does work for some people; for others it doesn’t. The ladies have the advantage here because they get a flood of msgs from guys within minutes of posting their profiles. We guys, on the other hand, get very few responses to our profiles other than form letters from girls who look like porn stars & are most likely spammers. Just like, during sex, millions of sperm race toward one egg–so too in online dating, hundreds of us men compete for the attention of one woman, so our prospects of ever getting a reply, much less a date, are bleak. Thus I believe that online dating works better for women than for men.

7. hunter Dec 9th 2007 at 10:31 am 7

   to collins,

   smart, intelligent women select with their ears,,,,,,,,, it is in the wording, your profile has to say, what a woman needs to hear……

8. JerryC Dec 10th 2007 at 08:19 pm 8

   Why Internet Porn is better than Internet Dating…

   Internet Dating: 90 percent of women on it are dogs
   Internet Porn: 90 percent of women on it are hot

   Internet Dating: Takes lots of time, little payoff
   Internet Porn: Takes little time, big payoff

   Internet Dating: Identifying multiple personality factors that ensure compatibility
   Internet Porn: Big tits/hot body = compatibility

   Internet Dating: To find that special someone who will love you for being you
   Internet Porn: To never worry about that special someone turning your life into a living nightmare

   Internet Dating: Waiting days or weeks to see if she’ll return your e-mails
   Internet Porn: Waiting seconds to download pics from “Hootersland.com”

   Internet Dating: You’ll never have to go to a singles bar again
   Internet Porn: You’ll never have to go to a singles bar again

9. Ruby Mar 12th 2008 at 02:31 am 9

   Hmmm. Online dating doesn’t work for average looking women over 30. I tried it for a year and only attracted men who seemed resentful that I was ‘all they could get’ and seemed to expect sex as some sort of ‘pay off’ for spending an afternoon with me. I entered into the experience with an open mind, viewing online dating as an opportunity to meet men outside work and my social circle, and was looking for friendship first, with the possibility of a relationship if we clicked. I’m trendy, well-groomed but average looking, and I’m very slim but petite (5ft). Suspecting I’m no man’s fantasy woman, I posted my same written profile with taller vital stats and a prettier girl’s photo – yep, approaches went through the roof. I know I should have expected more ’success’ as a sweet leggy lady anyway, but that’s when I decided to leave online dating.

10. dadshouse Mar 17th 2008 at 08:30 am 10

    In the past 8 years, I’ve done plenty of online dating, enough that I’m considered an internet dating expert. My conclusion? It doesn’t work. As I’ve said in my blog, chemistry is felt, not articulated in checkboxes and online prose. Plus, expectations are too high going into an online date. You meet under the pretense that the other person might be “the one”. When they aren’t, you fell deflated. But a good date should make you feel the opposite – elated about the potential and possibility!

    The best way to meet people to date is through friends – BBQs, parties, clubs, social groups. The common bond is a great starting point. What do you have in common with someone else who online dates – you both subscribed to the same service?

11. JB Mar 18th 2008 at 06:00 am 11

    Like a lot of people I’ve been internet dating since the dawn of the internet back when the sites were free….ie: Early “Webpersonals” was one of the first as was “American Singles” and even Yahoo personals was originally free. I’ll even go back further than that, before the internet we were using photoless newspaper personals with voice mail and sending letters and photo’s by snail mail…lol(quite the chore mind you back in 1989)

    To answer the question “Does online dating work ?” The answer to that is an opinion ….but is it really ? If you go just by the numbers like what percentage of people actually make it to a “phone conversation” or a “coffee date” or a “5th date” or the unimaginable “I think it’s time we take our profiles down and only see each other”….lol let alone marriage. I think the numbers would show you’ve got a better chance of being struck by lightening on a sunny day than meeting your “soulmate”….lol That being said …can you meet people you wouldn’t normally meet and have some fun as well as a pile of frustration & aggravation thrown in for good measure. ABSOLUTELY !!
    Will women get more dates and spend less money ? ABSOLUTELY !!
    Will most men never get a response let alone a date ? ABSOLUTELY !!
    Does online dating work ?? ABSOLUTELY !! for the people that are making millions running the sites as well as the very few people who meet someone and “hit it off” for ANY period of time.

    I think Evan should write the definitive book on online dating and how it’s changed the landscape of dating & relationships in modern society.
    IE: Women no longer have to leave the house and they can have 10 dates a week. They control pretty much every interaction online and the pace etc… They have so many options it even boggles their own minds to the point they get addicted to getting emailed everyday by idiots telling them “you’re hot”. Single moms who have no time to date or go out now have plenty of male companionship and interaction etc…
    Women no longer have to go to a bar or singles event and wait to be approached by guys they don’t like. They can put up their blury picture from 5 yrs and 30 lbs ago and get tons of meaningless attention as well as deicde who they interact with and for how long…(usually 2 or 3 emails..lol) You get the drift as I’m rambling here. I’d be happy to co-author Evan. Let’s do it ! Unless it’s already been written and I have’nt found it ????

12. dadshouse Mar 28th 2008 at 08:49 am 12

    I’ve thought about this some more – turns out the online dating service sector is nearly a billion dollar a year industry. There’s money to be made by people who promote. Last I checked, the “online dating doesn’t work” industry isn’t quite so lucrative…

13. vino Apr 8th 2008 at 11:02 am 13

    My not-so-scientific conclusions for the women 25-40 range. I’ve done match. Criteria – body type is slender, athletic or average. All other criteria open. I won’t look at the rest.

    70% Single mothers – out. I’m not dating single mothers.

    Remaining 30% – Here’s where it gets funny.
    Weed out the ones who are ugly, or who are lying ( ie – ‘athletic’ means 5′6″ and could play linebacker for the 49ers). – 60% of the remaining 30%, so 12% of the available candidates are left.

    Of the remaining 12% – start weeding out the non-compatible things. I love the 5′5″ girls who want guys 6′2″ & up. Smokers, out. Weed out the women who expect they guy earn 2-3x more than they (you know, the teachers who want their date to make $150k +), weed out the attention whores who have their bikini pictures on there (good to look at, bad to date) or multiple pictures of dresses showing tons of cleavage. Very subtle. (and yet, they complain when we look…)

    Further weed out the ones of pictures with professional athletes & actors (high mileage, VERY high mileage).

    Weed out the plastic queens – the black eyebrows and unnaturally blonde hair, usually accompanied by very tan (real, UV, or spray-on) skin, fake nails, etc…see also attention whores and money hungry above.

    Weed out the narcissists – the bodybuilders & fitness competitors, triathletes & every-other-weekend-is-a-race types. They’re addicts, maybe not of booze or drugs, but that same addicitive behavior is turned to fitness, etc. (Don’t get me wrong – I love working out & do it often, just not as a 2nd job. I also like to eat fun stuff, not count every calorie & food type)

    Once you slog through that remaining 12% there’s little else left. The reality is that good, attractive, emotionally & physically healthy women don’t need to use an online service. It comes to them. It simply isn’t worth the time effort & expense to sort through all of this, if you’re a guy.

    My 2 cents.

14. vino Apr 8th 2008 at 05:07 pm 14

    Ugh. Here’s a fun little profile. 38 Y.O., no kids. Attractive pictures, though, including boob job.

    “I am a romantic, someone who believes Prince Charming still exists.”

    Translation – I am a princess who doesn’t like reality as it applies between men & women.

    “First impressions count! It is a must for me to feel chemistry!”

    Translation – YOU better be hot, because even though I am 38 years old and 8+ years past my best looking days, I have fake boobs & botox. Therefore I am hot.

    “I am searching for a partner that does not shy away from commitment.”

    Translation – I am seeking someone who is blind, deaf & dumb to relationships, and would jump off a bridge willingly. I also think men a puerile who won’t grow up & commit to a woman, ignoring my responsibility in choosing men who won’t commit.

    “Creative, independent, professional, sophisticated, and articulate female seeking a gentleman, who is: charming, romantic, refined, thoughtful, spontaneous and determined to find their soul-mate.”

    Translation – Self-absorbed, over-estimated self, seeks sucker out of bad romance novel who as a ‘gentleman’ is willing to pay for everything.

    Oh, I didn’t mention she had her date needs to make $150k +. Her income info is blank, but she does mention being self-employed.

    At least she didn’t have cats.

15. cinnamon Apr 9th 2008 at 08:55 am 15

    I’ve never tried on-line dating and I guess I’m not planning to do it in the nearest future. Here are just a few of my reservations:

    1. Essentially, I do not see myself using a supermarket approach to address an issue of a pretty existential nature. I think the below quote from one of the posters is a good illustration of what I mean by supermarket approach:

    „As for women weeding through the hundreds of ads quickly, let’s be honest, go for the ones that are aesthetically pleasing to YOUR eye, keep a list of possible secondary ones and then discard the others.”

    2. Then, there is an issue of how you perceive your, so called, private sphere. I do not see myself placing a photo (not to mention a photo showing the cleavage) and a lot of personal info on a public website where it can be viewed by basically everyone. (I guess people differ very much in what they perceive as a part of their private sphere as opposed to public sphere.)

    3. I would be afraid that men who set themselves an OBJECTIVE TO FIND A GIRLFRIEND would want such a relationship to progress too quickly than what I would find comfortable.

    4. I would NOT set myself an OBJECTIVE TO FIND A BOYFRIEND. Well, I do not believe that a soulmate might drop out of the sky, but I do believe that sometimes we just come to a realization that this someone who is around makes so much difference that you just cannot imagine the world without them.

    Besides, a value a good story So to a question “So, how you guys met?” I don’t want to answer “On match.com”

16. Evan Marc Katz Apr 9th 2008 at 10:07 am 16

    I normally don’t do this, but I can’t help myself.

    Cinnamon:

    1) If you’re meeting tons of great guys to date in real life, good for you! You don’t need online dating. However, if you aren’t dating lots and are wondering why your love life is dry, you’re spiting yourself by not going online.
    2) See #1. Wanting to have a love life without making an effort to achieve it is empty. Wanting to date online and worrying about anonymity is similar. It’s like wanting to be an Olympic swimmer without getting wet. Hey, if you’re a politician or celebrity, I can see why you’d want to stay anonymous. But if you’re concerned about what others would think – uh – everyone else there is dating online, too. No shame in that.
    3) You’re assuming that every guy who dates online is the same. I couldn’t imagine a more faulty assumption.
    4) It’s great to be a happy and healthy single. It’s counterintuitive to think “your prince will come” when he has no idea where to meet you. Online dating is the most obvious spot to meet likeminded single people. But hey, go try the gym and let me know how it goes.

    And to your last point: Yeah, the hundreds of thousands of happy couples who met online are really crying that they don’t have a better story to tell at parties.

    I thank you, Cinnamon, for providing a valuable service to all the people out there who think like you do. Until you challenge your preconceived notions of how things are (Online dating is weird, it’s for losers, it’s for desperate people, love will find you when you least expect it), you’re doomed to the same results you’ve already been getting.

    Warmest wishes – with love.

    Evan

17. vino Apr 10th 2008 at 04:27 pm 17

    More from the files of “What not to write in a first email”

    “Funny we both have XXXX XXXXXXXX in our list of books recently read. Love his simple, straightforward advice. What type business are you in?”

    Subtle.

18. huntergreen Jul 8th 2008 at 07:28 am 18

    Dating online is beneficial long-term to those to who own and promote the sites, bottom line is money making, not quality. They sell people and the few success stories they have, but no one really knows the statistical outcomes of meeting online. The divorce rate in the US is still very high, even higher for second marriages. We’re still doing something very wrong to have the cornerstone, most important relationship of our adult lives, fail…

    I guess if you’re not too busy and don’t mind having to psychoanalyze and background check you’ve got it made. My findings are most people online are not living authentic lives and are not attractive to me. They can sure “sound” like they are, but only after time, sometimes a lot of time, can one see the truth. I want to meet the healthy people who are living good quality lives, and that success, for me personally, only happens in person. Being in communities where people know people helps reduce the amount of sleuthing I have to do. I have found the best quality of people off-line.

    To me, doing the online thing takes too long to filter out who the liars are because some people have had lifelong experience at it and can be quite good. Meeting the person in person usually seals the deal or ends it. I am often quite surprised at how carelessly, haphazardly, and cluelessly some people go about this very important process. If they’re a flake at dating, I don’t need any further information!

    With the proliferation of spammers, married people, general scum online, I have had much better success online dating in the past than recently. I no bother with online dating sites, I am looking for authentic folks who live the lives they say they do, not those who are online due to boredom, loneliness, lack of social skills, for whom this is merely a game, etc.

    Online dating works for some, but for me it is way too much work for something I was paying money for when the quality people don’t seem to be online anyway.

19. JuJu Jul 8th 2008 at 09:52 am 19

    vino,

    like attracts like.

    That’s all I am gonna say.

20. Andrew Hunt Jul 21st 2008 at 01:02 pm 20

    Dating Online is not perfect. But really annoys me is when girls I ask out from dating sites put Online dating down yet they are there to chat to. I use Online Dating as a gateway to meeting someone and arranging to meet up. I can tell you I have had three girlfriends.
    All from Plenty Of Fish.com.
    The only way I can understand why people try to talk me out of using online dating is because they are so confident that they don’t need online dating to meet someone. But why are they on there then?
    It is hypocritical. I am a shy man who just wants to be given a chance and I have met loads of wrong people online. But as I mentioned earlier I have met girls from the net so that is the main reason I keep using Online Dating sites. It isn’t the site’s fault it is the people I choose to talk to. Sorry if it offends anyone but I sometimes don’t get why confident people are online. They are capable enough to meet someone for real in a club or something.

21. vino Jul 23rd 2008 at 11:40 am 21

    don’t shoot the messenger juju, just b/c you dislike the message.

    more from the what not to write archives of dating…

    vino: “thanks for the wink. how is your Tuesday?”

    Mz X: “it’s sunny & beautiful out, so it is all good. A little more about me – I’m from the east coast, undergrad in xxx, law school in xxx. I livedin xxx,then I moved here. So what’s your story?”

    vino: “A lawyer? My momma told me to stay away from lady lawyers…they were all trouble. I also hail from the east, lived in xxx for undergrad,then in xxx, now here. I see you like wines. Any particular favorites?”

    Mz X: “I like malbecs and since I lived in NZ for awhile, I like pinots too. It’s cool you lived in xxxx. I spent a semester in xxxx. It was lots of fun. So what is it you do?”

    mmmm. So subtle. I found this in the email archives. Aside from the fact her pictures sucked (blurry & poorly lit), she’s a lawyer & therefore ‘out.’ Reason – preoccupation with what I do for work. Not one thing about my profile (ie- me) , but made a point tell me 2x she is a lawyer (it’s in her profile too). Essentially, all she did was tell me where she’s lived so that I would give her my resume. blech.

22. JuJu Jul 23rd 2008 at 01:39 pm 22

    Okay, let me attempt to word this in a way that would likely pass the censorship here: you, vino, complain how all women are just cold-hearted calculating bitches, but did you ever stop to think why a genuinely nice and kind person would want to be with you?

23. cinnamon Jul 23rd 2008 at 10:28 pm 23

    JuJu,
    re: 22
    That was below the belt.

24. vino Jul 24th 2008 at 09:11 am 24

    Juju, please read my previous posts. Nowhere have I ever said ‘all’ women are heartless bitches or anything so absolute. If you wish to insult, at least be marginally accurate. By the way, by so insulting without provocation, please consider the possibility you prove my point. Have a nice day.

    cinn,

    A pleasure seeing you , as always.

25. JuJu Jul 24th 2008 at 09:33 am 25

    All right.

    I’ve led the horse to water.

26. Cilla Jul 24th 2008 at 02:06 pm 26

    Vino,

    I gotta say I’m as cynical and sarcastic as the next person (I even composed a form letter for the many mismatched suitors who flooded my box–e.g. “Clearly, from your photo, you are not 45. I’m not dating Gandalf, Santa, or the guy holding the pitchfork in ‘American Gothic.’” ) But you sound like you have an enormous chip on your shoulder. Not every woman who asks about your profession is a gold digger. For most people it’s just a safe conversation starter. We’ve been warned to stay away from so many hot button issues, it leaves us precious little in the way of innocuous banter. Would you be happier if she asked, “What medications do you take on a regular basis?” or “How often do you change your sheets? or “Where do you stand on a woman’s right to choose?” Sheesh.

27. vino Jul 24th 2008 at 07:03 pm 27

    Cilla,

    First, I’m reprinting previous things from online dating – where there was an extensive profile indicating local restaurants I like, several recent books read, places I’ve gone, activities I enjoy, funny movies, etc. There are pictures of my dog. There are at least a dozen things to ask about. But what’s the first or second question – “What do you do for work?” Nearly every time. Who cares? I’m not working with them….They care. Blech.

    There are several threads on this site on the subject of money & dating, so I won’t rehash those arguments. I’d suggest reading them. One look at match.com that shows how many women expect their ‘dates’ to earn 2x what they earn is nothing short of shocking.

    On the subject of safe conversation starters, how hard is it to say, “Oh I see you like wine. Have you been to Napa/Sonoma?” Or “I read Freakanomics too. What was your favorite part? Mine was…?” Or, “Oh, you like hiking? Have you ever been to Yosemite?” I mean, how hard is that really to start a conversation? Answer – it isn’t. So please spare me the criticism for pointing out disingenuous behavior.

    Sheesh.

    “We’ve been warned to stay away from so many hot button issues, it leaves us precious little in the way of innocuous banter.” What? Victims of not knowing what to say? Puh-lease. Don’t be so obvious is all. You’re still being less-than-open, but it’s easier to tolerate.

    “But you sound like you have an enormous chip on your shoulder.” Ah yes, I’m unreasonably angry for pointing out people who clearly don’t care about me, but what I can give or do for them.

    “Not every woman who asks about your profession is a gold digger.” – Most are – see articles quoted in other threads.

    Oh, and….

    “What medications do you take on a regular basis?”
    - Aspirin & ibuprofen

    “How often do you change your sheets?”
    - Where’s the wet spot again?

    “Where do you stand on a woman’s right to choose?”
    Choose all you want. Just don’t come looking for $ from him because of YOUR choice.

    Have a nice evening

28. Scott Jul 25th 2008 at 08:13 am 28

    Well after reading this thread I finally realize I am not the only male who has not had any luck with dating websites. I’ve tried them all from the free ones to E-harmony, and nothing has worked…

    I’m a 39 yr old, attractive, educated, active, employed, single dad who doesn’t have time to go all over the place looking for “the one”, so I thought I would try it online. UGH…

    Here is what I have discovered, and feel free to comment or correct me if you think I’m wrong…

    1. It ALL comes down to the picture. Nothing more, nothing less. If the woman does not find you even semi-attractive, you won’t even get a visit to your profile.

    2. IF you get the visit to your profile, it then comes down to the “two” vital stats, height and weight. If you are too short or too tall, too fat or too thin, this is the next eliminating step.

    3. IF you make it past 1 and 2, then it comes down to your occupation and how much money you make. No matter how much the woman professes she doesn’t care about money or a job and that she is very independent, she wants a man that can take care of her. If you don’t make the amount she is comfortable with, you’re done.

    4. IF you have kids under the age of 18, you’re done at this step. She is single and wants ALL the attention. IF she has kids under the age of 18 and a really good parent, she’s probably not on the dating website to begin with. She is “too busy” to date.

    5. If (and only if) you make it past these steps, will she finally read what your profile has to say.

    What I don’t get is that most women’s profiles tell you all of the qualities she is looking for in a man and how important they are to her. But none of these qualities are ever the “eliminating ones”. As long as you pass through steps 1 and 5, she would be happy to take a man that blows her off three times for a date, tells her she’s fat, beats on her for fun, and tells her how much he hates her family. And you know what, if he broke it off with her and called her back in a month, she’d be happy to take him back.

29. JuJu Jul 25th 2008 at 09:24 am 29

    Scott,

    I can’t see what exactly surprises you. Wouldn’t 1 and 2 be the eliminating factors for you as well? 3 is so deeply rooted in our biology and evolution that I don’t know how many generations it will take for the situation to change. I personally know a woman with an exaggerated sense of responsibility (in all areas of life), and she is absolutely unable to accept the man paying for anything at all, but that’s an aberration rather than the norm.

    But what I wanted to comment on was 4. I once dated a man with a child from a previous marriage, before I had any preferences on the subject. He had his daughter every weekend. Whatever parties and events I was invited to I had to attend alone. (That particular situation was exacerbated by the fact that on weekdays he worked until 8 or 9 pm.) And sooner or later the question arises: why do I need a boyfriend at all? I felt like I was on my own all the time anyway.

    If I have a choice (and I do), why would I agree to the additional liability of someone else’s child? Besides, it’s not like I am asking for anything I cannot offer.

    Of course the qualities they list mean “after the basic prerequisites are fulfilled” (most commonly, the physical attraction).

    I am sure the process is exactly the same for [many] men. Including your very last point.

30. JuJu Jul 25th 2008 at 09:30 am 30

    By the way, as far as the numbers are concerned, you forgot age.

    I don’t even answer the e-mails that do not include a picture [in which I can actually see the person] and the vital stats. I can’t afford to.

31. JB Jul 25th 2008 at 10:44 am 31

    Scott, you are right. It all comes down to the picture. For a kick you should find a guy’s pic that’s a “10″ put it up on any site and watch how ridiculous all the women act and the crazy things that they say and do….lol
    This profile I actually wrote in less than a minute with NO substance on purpose and because he was “hot” every woman “loved his profile”…lol
    go figure. Like Evan says it’s human nature. Everyone(men too) thinks they deserve the most attractive people on the site. Even if they’re a “3″.

    What it really taught me is that as a guy who’s maybe a “5″ or a “6″ I basically have very little or NO value online. Even with quality pics I still look like I look …lol I still try though but it’s “just another club in the bag” as far as meeting women. What are gonna do ? Hang out in the supermarket ?? …LOL

32. Scott Jul 25th 2008 at 11:25 am 32

    JuJu,

    I hear what you are saying, and NO, I’m not surprised by any of it. I think it just goes to show why internet dating does not really work for most men. Except for Evan (who is probably getting a kickback from a dating service), most of the comments I have read here from men are NOT positive.

    I didn’t include or even consider age because when I am looking at a women’s profile it generally indicates what she is looking for as an age range. If I don’t fit in, I don’t initiate a contact.

    As women, like you said, you have a choice. You just watch all the emails collect in your inbox. Men, on the other hand don’t have it that way.

    Maybe I’m not the “norm” for guys but I’d like to think there are a lot of men out there like me. When I do a search for women that I “match” with, I actually do read the profiles of those who I might not find “very” attractive at first glance. I do know from having relationships in my past, that personality and character can go a long way to making someone seem attractive. It’s the package, not just the picture. I’ve read profiles of women who became even more attractive after I took the time to read about them. If compatibility and personality were not a big factor in making a relationship work, then why some dating sites use them as the criteria for matching?

    From what your saying, it seems the dating sites would be more effective if we could punch in hair color, eye color, boob size, big butt, small butt, well hung, build, etc. and come up with matches in your zip code that way. Once you get that out of the way, then you can read the more superficial stuff in the profile.

    As far as kids? If a man is truly looking to integrate you into his life with his children, it can be done. It takes some work on everyones part. But like you said, YOU have “a choice”, because your inbox will be full again in the next 24 hours…

    
    Scott

33. JuJu Jul 25th 2008 at 12:14 pm 33

    Scott,

    I am bi-cultural and use ethnic dating sites, as I would ideally prefer someone with the same background (that explains the different [from something like match.com] format).

    It’s exactly the same way for me, I don’t have to find the person VERY attractive, merely acceptable, appearance-wise. I couldn’t care less about the color of anything (I honestly could know a person for years and not even know their eye color (unless it’s brown, but only because that’s usually easy to predict)), and sometimes I wish the size was a known from the start =), as it could potentially completely ruin the courtship, but I have to disagree with you on all those criteria as being part of the person’s profile – I can see almost all the things that interest me in a clear full-height picture anyway =), and not all of them matter, to me.

    As for that relationship I had – at that point I wasn’t exactly looking to be “integrated”. It takes time for both parties to decide whether the introduction to the kids is even warranted, and we only survived 5-6 weeks. The first couple of weeks he came over every night, and we both somehow subsisted on 3 hours of sleep during that period, but it’s not sustainable long-term. If I felt that the man (any man with children) simply completes me, I guess I would have gone through the effort required, but the likelihood of that is negligible anyway.

    And as far as “kickbacks” are concerned – I could tell you about so many negative experiences of my own (with online dating), so much disappointment and disillusionment that sometimes took me prolonged periods of time to recover from. Only to harp on that would not be helpful to anyone including myself. In terms of quantity, if not quality, online dating still remains the best way to meet new people. Try to vary your methods some, though, participate in activities with your children and whatnot – some women just swoon over men they perceive as good fathers.

34. Evan Marc Katz Jul 25th 2008 at 12:49 pm 34

    “Kickbacks”? Honestly, Scott.

    Everything I say, I believe, because I’ve seen it up close.

    I’ve helped people find love in both their 20’s and 60’s.
    I’ve helped Asian men meet Caucasian women.
    I’ve helped a pair of sisters find love.
    I’ve helped a woman in a wheelchair to get engaged.

    So while I’m not denying the source of anyone’s negativity – it IS a jungle out there – I can GUARANTEE you that every single person reading this can improve their success exponentially with new photos, a new profile, a new email technique, and a new understanding of the opposite sex.

    There are MILLIONS of positive stories out there. If you don’t have them, the answer isn’t to blame the system, however unfair it might be. It’s to do something different.

35. Scott Jul 25th 2008 at 01:40 pm 35

    Evan,

    I would really appreciate hearing some of the success stories out there. Can you please post some legitimate details, including what their picture looked like, what they wrote, how they corresponded, where they met? You know, SPECIFIC details about specific situations, including the websites they used.

    While I find your words enlightening, you speak in very broad and general terms with no real specifics (unless I am missing them somewhere on your site) to back them up. What ARE these “success” stories? Do we get that information for free, or is that part of your “paid” services when we “work with you?

    Since most men are very detail oriented and very specific in nature, maybe that would help us to be more encouraged with this website dating that you are so excited about. Details, please…

    All of us men would like to know!

    Thanks,
    Scott

36. Evan Marc Katz Jul 25th 2008 at 01:53 pm 36

    Scott,

    It would be no exaggeration to say that I have hundreds of customer testimonials. It would also be no exaggeration to say that most people I work with don’t like having their names and photos attached to a very Googleable dating coach.

    So, am I going to post the emails that I helped teach my clients to write? No.

    Am I going to post their essays and “out” them to the world? No.

    I trust that you appreciate my discretion on behalf of my valued clients. I’m not being evasive. I’m being honorable.

    However, if your appetite is still not satiated, click here to see a few success stories from the first 18 months of my business:

    http://www.e-cyrano.com/services.html

    Click here if you want to hear some more recent tales of success:

    http://www.evanmarckatz.com/testimonials.html

    And if you’re still skeptical about my “success” stories and “paid” services for “working” with me, well, there’s nothing I’m going to do that’s going to convince you.

    Have a good weekend.

    Evan

37. Karl R Jul 26th 2008 at 03:25 pm 37

    I took advantage of the free advice that Evan has posted around, and it improved the number of responses that I got.

    I spent about 8 or 9 months last year using online dating. Nothing went past the first few dates. But I’d still say that online dating was very useful for me.

    By the end of that period, I had lots of experience with asking women out and lots of experience going on first dates. When I met an interesting woman at my church, I was calm and confident when I asked her out. On the first date, I was relaxed and able to be myself.

    We dated for 4 1/2 months.

    That experience also helped me be confident and relaxed when I met my current girlfriend (while out dancing). Our first date was about a month ago.

    Andrew Hunt (#20) said:
    “I sometimes don’t get why confident people are online. They are capable enough to meet someone for real in a club or something.”

    People who hang out in bars and clubs have one thing in common … they like to drink. For many of us, it’s not an ideal place to meet someone.

    Obviously I have several offline options for meeting women. However, few places or activities provide access to a limitless supply of interesting women. Should I have a dry spell where I’m not encountering any new women, I can always turn to online dating to introduce me to women that I’d never run across through my normal daily activities.

38. A-L Jul 28th 2008 at 08:12 am 38

    I have to disagree with Juju and Scott here about the importance of the photo in online dating. Granted, if I find the picture repulsive, then there’s no way anything in the profile is going to help. With that exception noted, however, the #1 thing that draws me to a guy’s profile is what he actually writes. If your profile is funny or interesting and doesn’t just say the same stupid stuff as everyone else’s (I like watching tv, sports, working out and am looking for an attractive woman who takes care of her body to have some fun with…) then I am totally interested. These are the guys who I will initiate contact with rather than waiting for them to contact me, because they’re RARE! And unless they look totally repusive, it makes no difference whatsoever what they look like.

    Now if you have the same bland profile as everyone else, then the picture, height, weight, income, etc are all that you CAN be judged on. So, though I receive no kickbacks from Evan or anyone else, I agree with him that online dating can work, and the biggest key for me is writing a good profile (the it also helps to have good pictures, even if you’re no 10, for those who are more visually oriented).

39. wu Sep 6th 2008 at 07:11 am 39

    Internet dating trades on the superficial – a photo a profile nothing else. If you read women’s profiles very careful 99% are looking for the same thing, and they have been brainwashed by the superficial society we now live in. Every man is looking for a blond supermodel, every woman for a Brad Pitt lookalike. Thats why there are so many older single women about now – and increasing all of the time. How on earth did people find partners before internet dating Evan?!!! Stick to the tried and trusted and safer way, get out there and meet people instead of spending hours in computerland living a fantasy.

40. Eden Sep 8th 2008 at 08:19 am 40

    I don’t know if I’m just looking for a solution to my problem but this post is really good. I’m in love with 2 persons I met online and I’m not really sure if what I’m doing right now is good or not. One thing I’m sure though, that we don’t meet people by chance. So….whether it’s online or not, I’d still give my best to know people I meet.

41. hunter Sep 9th 2008 at 07:04 pm 41

    on post #40

    I tell all single men, “Leave nothing to chance.”

42. Stella Sep 14th 2008 at 12:37 pm 42

    Dating is just plain hard work. It was the first time around and for those who havent been so lucky, even harder the second time. As an attractive, successful, divorced woman with an eight year old child, dating is alot of work. And yes, dating off of match or eHarmony is a little embarrassing when you are among your married friends who dont remember dating when a kegger wasnt involved. But if it did not work, it would not be so popular.

    I routinely take stock of what it is that I want. Is it wanting too much, are my goals too lofty? It would be easy to compromise on the important stuff just to say I am with someone. But doing so is not fair to who I am as a person. I have alot to offer the right person and I truely hope that some day in the not too distant future I do stumble upon Mr. Right. I know the only way that will happen is to put myself out there – which most likely will be through a dating website. I am certain that I will amass a tome of laughable dating stories along the way. But some day it will happen.

    As far as what is important in an on-line profile – lets be honest. You can write like Hemmingway, but if the person reading it does not find you physically attractive in the least bit, you are doomed to failure. We are all human – and yes, some people get better looking as you get to know them and some get worse, but having some place to start off with looks wise, is very important. Being afraid to post your picture means you are not comfortable with yourself. Cant find love unless you love yourself first.

    And Scott – very cute!

    Stella

43. hunter Sep 14th 2008 at 10:04 pm 43

    Yes, when a woman warms up to a man, the man gets better looking….when a woman, is done with a man, when she no longer wants him, the man is unattractive/ugly…..

44. Selena Sep 16th 2008 at 09:28 am 44

    Hunter, re:#43

    Yes I’ve found that to be true. And most often it is because the man has DONE something(s) that were unattractive/ugly.

    I will postulate that the same works for men regarding women as well.

45. hunter Sep 16th 2008 at 05:51 pm 45

    on post #44

    I am not so sure men say the same, after breaking up. I have heard men say how much they miss their former girlfriends “D”-cups……LOL!…

46. Selena Sep 17th 2008 at 07:31 am 46

    Re#45

    Yeah, hunter I think you’re right again. When men breakup with a woman they were attracted to they are less likely to dispage her looks. More likely to describe her as a “crazy bitch”.

47. Leighann Sep 25th 2008 at 01:06 pm 47

    I just stumbled upon this site and have been reading the very interesting posts. I am completely new here, but not new in the least to online dating. So here is my .02: Give it an honest try and be willing to put yourself at risk. You’ll find a 100 duds (relationship wise since everyone has value) both men and women, but it is that 101 that could be “the one” or just end up a darn good person to know. Stop bitching about all the negative, it is way too easy and so unproductive. Evan is right, if you don’t want to end up dying alone without sharing all the decent things in your life with someone you’ve connected to, then get up when the horse throws you, dust yourself off, and try it again (it gets easier btw).
    My preference is chat, but I am on eharm too. I’ve had 2 serious relationships come from online, one I am still in now. Without being online, I doubt we would have found each other, no, I know we wouldn’t have. My life is so hectic that I don’t always find the time for me to get out and be social, 2 jobs, blah, blah, blah…Pretty much like everyone these days who doesn’t want to hang out at a bar, or a gym, or a church social, or worse have your family try hooking you up.
    Pictures are weird, superficial, but so is the world, no getting around it, so deal with it. Just try and do the best you can. I’m not special, so I can pretty much believe if I am like this, so are most people. Someone is going to find you attractive not just by a picture but by what you have to say. Example: No, he’s not really getting my attention..read, read, read..but heck what a funny guy, oh wait, look at that smile, it’s kinda nice, and he dresses well (neat ,clean, trendy, sporty, laid back etc.)..read, read, read..we like the same books, and I love Scrabble,…those ears are kinda cute.. getting the picture here people, not everyone is superficial, in fact MOST are not.
    Connections are based on a zillion different things; some it’s the ability to provide, hence the people who want to know what you do and what you make. It is in our genetic makeup both men and women. But it also can be just finding out about the other person, and ice breaker, and way to get talking. Personally, humor and conversation do it for me (and a good cowlick), and because I am happily dating a starving artist, I feel I can say this. Neither of us are “pretty people”, we’re not “alike” and it was our differences that we found intrigueing and gave us so much growth potential. It’s been a year of conversation ( no rush and I’m no spring chicken nor am I nervous about a faster meet up, we live 10,000 miles a part), and we’re finally going to meet face to face, no web cam, no pics, no phone, and we have high hopes. If it doesn’t work, I’ll cry for a week, get my shit together and begin to look again with not one regret, and I’ll have a good friend. AND it will be online, though I am not against finding someone in my own backyard.
    Just take it for what it is, another way to connect. It works for some, not for others but don’t go knocking it for everyone. I hope you all connect someday, I hope mine works, there are billions of people on this planet, its a damn shame there is any loneliness at all.

48. JuJu Oct 16th 2008 at 09:44 am 48

    It’s amazing how similar everyone’s experiences with online dating are (and I am at least 10-15 years younger and childless). Men who lie about their height, emotionally unavailable or unstable men, freaks with gross houses, – I encountered all that, too. It’s SO HARD not to become bitter, but that’s the only way.

49. JuJu Oct 16th 2008 at 12:24 pm 49

    Why was the link I posted edited out? My post doesn’t make sense without it.

50. JB Oct 17th 2008 at 06:43 am 50

    JuJu forgot to tell you about the women that lie about their weight or only put up “head shots” so you can’t see they’re actually obese or that they put “average” for their weight and then you come to find out that average means 215 lbs …lol Yes,I’ve encountered all that as well as women that lie about their AGE too ! Recently I met a woman on Yahoo and actually “hit it off” Let’s see if we can make it to the 2 month mark ?? ….LOL

51. Stella Oct 17th 2008 at 08:20 am 51

    JB,

    For every woman who has lied about her weight, there are two guys who lied about either their height, weight, amount of hair existing on their head or level of interest in a committment (read – just looking for sex). Lets face it, honesty is not humanities strong suit.

    The good thing is, just like learning to read the want-ads for a used car, you become pretty savvy to those folks who are not all on the up and up. Too bad there is not a “lemon law” for bad dates!

    Stella

52. monica yeto Oct 18th 2008 at 09:40 am 52

    thank you for sharing this because i totally agree to everything u said. i met my soul mate online. my bestfriend. love of my life. i cant live without him. he is my other half. i never expected it but it did happen. we found each other. i believe that we should be open minded to these things since we are in the information age. we cant deny the fact that its part our lives now. meeting someone online is not impossible. remember all love stories are unique. if become so critical about it, nothing will eve happen. i decided to take this risk, knowing that i might get hurt because we r distant (he is in the US army by the way). i have to admit it is painful but its fine. i love him and knowing that i do so much, we can never deny it no matter how much we cover our emotions…we will get hurt bec we open ourselves up. we become vulnerable. im not scared to open myself up because when u love, give or receive love…pain is part of it. the saying goes “its better to have love n lost than to never have loved at all.” its true. my love for him is stronger. learn to compromise. be considerate. more understanding. invest in that relationship. its hard work but its worth it.

53. Karl R Oct 18th 2008 at 10:02 am 53

    Stella (#51) said:
    “For every woman who has lied about her weight, there are two guys who lied about either their height, weight, amount of hair existing on their head or level of interest in a committment”

    Stella, how do you arrive at this figure? Do you date both women and men? Since I date only women, I have no basis for comparison as to how honest or dishonest the men are.

    “Too bad there is not a ‘lemon law’ for bad dates!”

    There is. It’s called “No second date.”

54. Mike X Oct 19th 2008 at 09:54 am 54

    Yes, there are men who lie about stuff. A lot of them. And there are a lot of creeps out there who will copy and paste the same email to 50 women, or will write nasty first emails to women and completely turn them off. Unfortunately, that makes it that much harder for honest, normal guys to make an impression on a woman, or even get our emails to be read.

    I think Evan has touched on this many times: Because online dating allows you to be SO PICKY about every single aspect of your perfect match, people use those measures to screen out all their matches to find who they think is perfect. And of course, if you think someone is perfect, then so do 100 other people, and that perfect person just gets bombarded by email.

    I think that on these sites, there is a LOT of mail being exchanged between a FEW people. You know the Pareto principle? Where 80% of activity is from 20% of participants? I’d guess that on sites like match (which is the dating site the “beautiful people”), 90% of email exchange is between 10% of the users. These are the HOT women and HOT men who get lots and lots of emails. If you are not HOT, be prepared for a lot of disappointment.

    Notice I said email “exchange,” implying a back and forth. I know that women (hot or not) get lots of emails, but a lot of those emails are from guys they are not interested in. And average guys like me? Well, we don’t get anything.

    I’m 5′11, 170, athletic, grad school educated, with plenty of clear photos, and a profile written in the style of Evan’s first book – humorous, with plenty of information about me. I am a nonsmoker, no baggage, good salary, etc. Every email I write is customized, yet my response rate is one out of 40 if I’m lucky. I don’t only write to the hot model girls, either.

    I tell this to women not to have their pity, but just to let them know that no matter how hard they think online dating is, they should be thankful that they are not male.

55. Stella Oct 19th 2008 at 04:16 pm 55

    Ah, Karl. Not to disappoint, but I only date men. I do, however, have many guy friends who have told me of their dating woes – for every one of their stories, I seem to have at least two.

    And Mike X – everything you have said is correct about on line dating. We do set high, almost unrealistic expectations of our future “dates” making it hard to find that perfect someone. I certainly have learned that lesson – told by one of my guy friends that I followed the 6-6-6 rule, and how was I ever going to find the right guy if I measure everyone by that standard. I have since broken myself of that rule (somewhat) and have met someone that is so not my “typical” date, but who is the perfect compliment to me and I am loving it!

56. hunter Oct 20th 2008 at 03:18 am 56

    on post #55

    I have heard women get into relationships, once they start seeing, a not so “typical” date.

57. JB Oct 20th 2008 at 11:24 am 57

    Mike X is correct. Most women have never been “a guy online” average looking or gorgeous to see how ridiculous it all is. Average looking women won’t respond to average looking men. Just like Evan says noone thinks THEY are average. I think more men are willing to “take what they can get” as opposed to women that are “3’s” thinking they’re gonna get that 1 guy that’s a “10″. I have been EVERYONE online including the “average” guy that I AM. It’s a fascinating study to watch what happens to different types of profiles…sometimes funny but mostly very sad. But hey ….even the “average” get lucky sometimes …..

58. hunter Oct 20th 2008 at 05:36 pm 58

    to Mike X on post #54

    Try rewriting your profile, until you get results.

    Stay away from the “beautiful people,” (they get hit on many times a day, and receive 100’s of e-mails) until, you get really good at dating.

59. A-L Oct 21st 2008 at 08:04 am 59

    Here are two recent e-mails guys sent me on match.com:

    “want to talk” (that’s the entirety of the message)

    “Hi u doing love my name is cleveland and im 5 10 light hazel brown eyes medium build about 180 im looking for a real realationship i hope u give me a chance im a good man i dont a picture yet but i would love to send u one my number 504xxxxxxx i hope u call”

    I don’t care how elitist I’m being, I’m not responding to those messages no matter what the guy looks like, how much he earns, etc. Unfortunately, 90-95% of the e-mails I receive are like this. And here is one of the better ones I’ve received lately:

    “i see you have alot goin on i to have rocs i raise them an bull mastiffs i have had the chance to travel alot i really loved it. u r so diverse it would take me a day to relay all ur xperiances to mine but i do find u intrestin an i would love to know more about you what part of new orleans ur from what college u graduated from. whats ur favorite quick meal. what type of work u do.” At least he’s read my profile. But is it really that hard to spell out words correctly and use standard English? Am I really asking for that much?

    But I think Mike X is right about 10% of the people on Match doing 90% of the communication. Eda and I had a discussion on a different thread whereby we discussed how race is a big factor in the (low) number of hits we get. I’m 28, college-educated, moderately attractive, have an interesting profile, clear photos (head and full-body) that I tell everyone were taken in the last 10 months. I’m supposed to be at my peak of dating desireability and the garbage above is mostly what I receive. And when I initiate e-mails with guys, my response rate isn’t that great. So I think online dating is hard for everybody except for the supermodels.

60. Stella Oct 21st 2008 at 08:26 am 60

    But isnt that what makes this whole thing amusing? Emails from the bull mastiff breeder.

    I think it is funny that all the guys on this think that the girls have the upper hand – and I would beg to guess that the girls think it is the boys that are troublesome.

    I was always amazed at how many guys emailed me pictures of their motorcycles and thought I was going to be game for a date. My profile could not be more conservative and waspy and I get Harleys – who cant spell and like to hunt.

61. Mike X Oct 21st 2008 at 08:32 am 61

    Hunter – The thing is, over the past few years, my profile has gone through several iterations of re-writes, sometimes small tweaks and sometimes complete overhauls. The results are pretty much the same. I will say that I did have slightly better success (maybe 1 response out of 20 emails) when I lived in NYC, where the M/F ratio was in my favor.

    A-L: I’m sure that many women are receiving emails similar to yours…so that’s why it’s that much more disappointing when my emails continue to go unanswered. And yes, I think race does play a big role – I’m Asian and as we all know from an article that Evan wrote earlier, Asian men have a huge disadvantage when it comes to dating. Glad I’m not short.
    http://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/dating-advice-for-short-men-life-is-unfair/

    I got an email today on OKCupid.com from a woman complaining that chemistry.com is “a lot of work.” Ha ha. Maybe I should refer her to the end of my post #54…but then she’d think I’d bitter

    I actually like sites like chemistry and eharmony because for regular guys (ie not supermodels), it’s SO MUCH LESS WORK than “traditional” sites like match.com.

62. Lila Nov 1st 2008 at 07:35 am 62

    I met a guy online and we were together for almost 2 years and we are still friends. It wasn’t a dating site but still, it made me think that maybe my chances of meeting someone through internet dating websites might actually be better because, even though the prior relationship didn’t work out, it still lasted 2 years. I could quickly cut to the chase and narrow it down to the best possibilities.

    All I have to say is it’s been 2.5 months and what a pain in the ass. I did meet one great guy but then he admitted that he’d lied about his marital status! Not to mention, the financial mess he was in and he couldn’t even bring a date home.

    Then there was the guy with nothing but tattoos and a mouthful of rotting teeth, who really needs to get laid. Of course all the photos were with his mouth closed and he wanted to make sure that I was really the person in the photo, because he had been fooled before by women were really dogs.

    Then there was the 21 year old hottie who might make a decent booty call. A truly good looking guy whom I had coffee with and then was supposed to go to a party with. I actually considered going, even though I am 30 but after hanging out with his buddies and listening to them talk “how drunk they got” for about 3 hours, it was time to go. Some of them were also underage.

    I know there are people out there who have been lucky but I think that after my membership expires, that I am done with it. I have to admit that I am not a big fan of it. Plenty of potentials, plenty of emails, but I am starting to believe that maybe meeting someone is something that has to come naturally. Not to mention, I can’t handle all the “weeding out”, it takes way to much time.

    I think the internet would be a great way to hook up booty calls but that’s about it.

63. Lila Nov 1st 2008 at 07:43 am 63

    Stella…

    I get the same thing! I tell guys I like to go hiking, which I do. “Oh I’ll send you great pics I took, out in the forest the other day.”

    The pics are usually mostly bikes, jeeps, trucks or the men standing there with rifles in their hands and ready to go find something to kill. Only once did I get pics of nice scenery.

    Men don’t need to prove how manly they are by showing off there hardware and motors. Lol.. but I have to admit it’s pretty funny and severely symbolic of the differences between men and women.

64. JuJu Nov 1st 2008 at 08:42 am 64

    What’s a 6-6-6 rule?

65. Kenley Nov 1st 2008 at 09:27 am 65

    I actually don’t think it’s the case that average people don’t respond to average people per se. I think it’s people won’t respond to people they don’t think are attractive. And, I think average people can be attractive or at least have qualities that are attractive — great eyes, smile, etc.

66. qazarly Nov 25th 2008 at 06:46 am 66

    I think we now have enough information to show what is happening and where the problem lies.
    Firstly men using online dating outnumber women. The younger the men the worse the ratio, but for older men a quick look at Match shows about 150 men for 100 women. Good start for women.
    But Freakonomics data shows that 25% of women get no email from men. Ouch, even with substantially more prospects 1 in 4 women do not make the grade. They may be the ones complaining the men want supermodels, in reality the top 75% of women.
    That leaves 150 men chasing 75 women, or a ratio now of 2 to 1. The men all send lots of emails, and 60% of them get no response whatsoever. So the “frogs” of the dating world are also out in the cold – all 90 of them, but we still have 60 of them left chasing 75 of the women.
    Surely the women will accept these men – not a bit of it !
    The freakonomics data shows that unlike men who will attempt communication with the opposite sex in proportion to the level of attractiveness, women do not show this linear response, they pretty much only respond to the most attractive men with the top 5% getting most of the traffic.
    There is now hardly any men left in the game. To be generous here – at best we now have 80% of the remaining women 60 out of 75 chasing only 20% of the men or 12 out of 60.
    We have 48 men getting a small response from the 15 women who statistically must be in the bottom 40% in level of attractiveness (the 48 men are all in the top 40%). These men probably are not impressed with this outcome !
    The top 12 (8%) of the men now have their pick of the 60 remaining women. Of course these women will probably not be too impressed by their success rate, and are probably wondering why the men they desire show no desire to commit.
    The remaining last statistic that we have is that 90% of men give up online dating in the first 3 months, and that seems to make perfect sense given the above.
    Conclusion – if people follow their biological programing very few of either sex will have any success

67. Cilla Nov 25th 2008 at 09:20 am 67

    qazarly,

    The statistical accuracy of your theory notwithstanding, I think you’re correct in your assumption that many women reject men based on their “attractiveness.” But let’s look at what attractiveness might mean. To me, it’s not just the face or the body in the picture, it’s whether or not the man looks put together. Did he take time to pose for and select an appealing (and accurate) photo of himself? Can I see his face, or is the shot taken from too far away? Is it blurry or too pixelated? Is he wearing a baseball cap and sunglasses in all his pics? Is he wearing a paint ball mask, a hockey mask, field camouflage, or eye black (yup, seen ‘em all). In all his photos is he dressed in schlubby clothes (sweats, torn jeans, etc.)? Is he clean shaven (if not sporting a neatly trimmed beard) and is his hair combed or styled? Does his house look like a complete mess in the background? (I’ve seen a few that could qualify for an Oprah episode.)

    Once I move past the photo, I look at the profile–it’s all part of the attractiveness package, so to speak. Is his profile well written, with a minimum of typos? Is it written in all caps or text message lingo? Is it too overtly sexual? Is it lacking in content that actually gives me some clue as to who this guy is? Is it a laundry list of what the man does NOT want in a mate?

    I could go on and on. I don’t know if these issues are reflected in the women’s profiles as well, since I don’t read them. But if men want to avoid the instant rejection from my mailbox, they’d better start working on their overall attractiveness quotient. If they think their head shot can’t carry the profile, they should include a nice (but not overly naked) body shot, if that’s their selling point. How about a photo in a suit and tie (not with an ex-girlfriend or someone’s wedding party cropped out)? If you’re not a suit guy, how about a nice sweater? And for heaven’s sake, get rid of the beer bottles, bongs, cigarettes, and crazy party paraphernalia–I don’t need to see your last Halloween or Mardi Gras costume, or that you “gotta support the team” by painting your chest blue for every home football game.

68. JuJu Nov 25th 2008 at 10:29 am 68

    The freakonomics data shows that unlike men who will attempt communication with the opposite sex in proportion to the level of attractiveness, women do not show this linear response, they pretty much only respond to the most attractive men with the top 5% getting most of the traffic.

    I don’t think this is true.
    I, for one, can tell if a man is “out of my league”, so to speak, and most likely won’t even bother with him.

    Also, judging from some of the men who see it fit to reply to me (and other women I’ve seen and spoken to), I would think it’s the men who are way more deluded about their chances.

69. A-L Nov 25th 2008 at 10:56 am 69

    Cilla’s description of what women find attractive is dead on. Unfortunately, the vast majority of men online don’t meet this requirement, and I’m rather lax about some of the physique ones.

    In terms of the numbers of people online, at the end of the “Would Your Rather Spend 20 Minutes on the Phone…” thread (http://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/would-you-rather-spend-20-minutes-on-the-phone-discovering-your-date%E2%80%99s-a-loser/) Karl R and I started looking at some of the data of men and women on Match.com. Here is what we found:

    38 year olds within 5 miles of the heart of Houston: 70 men, 46 women. That’s 60.3% male, 39.7% female.

    28 years old within 5 miles of the heart of New Orleans: 17 men, 14 women. That’s 55% male, 45% female.

    26-40 years old within 5 miles of the heart of New Orleans: 232 men, 164 women. That’s 59% men, 41% women.

    26-40 years old within 25 miles of the heart of New Orleans: 445 men, 329 women. That’s 57% men, 43% women.

    Just wanted to provide a little numerical perspective on the question of does online dating even work.

70. qazarly Nov 25th 2008 at 06:30 pm 70

    Cilla, I quite agree that the studies done show that women look at the “package”. They want men who are tall, handsome, confident, intelligent, high status, wealthy etc. Men want women who are hot and ….well thats it.
    Ju Ju, studies of speed dating shows indeed that women will make an assessment of their own level of attractiveness when they pick the men and they go for the best they think that they can get. Men just go for the hot women. But even the least attractive woman will only pick a small number of men and will set the bar as high as they can. Men choose lots of women and set the bar low.
    One study showed (video on the net!) that personality had no effect at all, as long as the men were tall they could talk complete gibberish and they would still get chosen.
    There is no blame here, our brains are hard wired to act in this way. Men are looking for young fertile women, and women are looking for strong providers with the best DNA.
    However women choose men, they hold all the cards. Only they are in a position to change the stalemate by saying yes instead of no.

71. Mike X Nov 25th 2008 at 11:33 pm 71

    Here is something that puzzles me about online dating (and real life dating, I guess).

    I can understand how women have the complete upper hand when they are in their 20s. They get dozens of emails a day and can reject guys left and right.

    My theory was that when I got to my early 30s (I’m 32), the power would shift toward men. Makes logical sense, right? Many women start to feel a little worried when they are in their 30s and still single. They might relax their screening criteria more when they realize that the 6′2″ multilingual, HOT doctor who pulls in $250k/yr doesn’t exist in real life. Or if he does, he’s too busy being a playboy to settle down.

    However, I don’t find that getting email responses is any easier for me from 30-33 yr old women as it is from 26-29 year old women. It’s still really hard. And the under 26 crowd still completely ignores me…haha.

    Do I have to wait till I’m in my late 30’s to really see the shift? I don’t want to end up being a cougar hunter. Purrrr…

72. Cilla Nov 26th 2008 at 07:30 am 72

    qazarly,

    I think you misinterpreted my point. Yes, women look at the total package, but I did not mention anything about wealth or status when I referenced my “attractiveness quotient.” I’m sure there are some women who look for these attributes, but I was talking about the first impressions a man makes in his profile–the style that is manifested before the substance can be uncovered, if you will. I would consider wealth or status to be a second layer that a woman uncovers only after a man has met the initial attractiveness criteria as discussed in my PP. A woman has to get past the grainy picture of the disheveled guy in sweats to discover he’s a multimillionaire.

    This whole “study” about how tall men are preferable regardless of their personalities or intellects is questionable. All things being equal, perhaps women will initially choose a taller man. But height doesn’t exist in a vacuum, and most women will factor in other qualities after a few minutes of evaluation. I know personally I get lots of email contacts from men who are attractive and tall. Once I read their profiles and see how vapid some of their ramblings are, I delete. I’m currently dating and corresponding with a few men in hopes of finding one person for a LTR. One of the top contenders is 5′6″, based on his quick wit, style and general joie de vivre. I realize this is anecdotal, but I do know other women who feel the same way.

    I believe the hardwired DNA theory is changing as environmental influences are beginning to trump nature. Both men’s and women’s perceptions of what is desirable in a mate are being challenged by media images that have no bearing on fertility or perpetuation of the species. If men were looking for the best biological partner to ensure the continuation of their DNA, they would choose women with the largest waist to hip ratios (proven to be associated with both fertility and longevity). Instead, the current trend is toward slender women with narrow hips and boyish figures. Just read some of the discussions here and on other sites regarding preferences for “athletic” or “slender” women–Maxim aesthetic, yes. Fertility? No way. And you contradict yourself: if women were looking for the best providers, they would be looking at big men who could “hunt” for them. Wealth or status wouldn’t even be a factor. To my knowledge, our DNA has yet to evolve to contain a code for mating based on bank accounts.

    As far as women holding all the cards goes, I agree to a point. In the cyber world the odds are stacked in favor of women. However, once that first contact has been made, the control goes to men. Take a look at Evan’s latest post “The Most Important Dating Advice You’ll Ever Hear” and you’ll see what I mean.

73. JuJu Nov 26th 2008 at 09:32 am 73

    Mike,

    I don’t think you are correct to expect a shift, at any age. In the animal world, the female chooses. She is only limited, obviously, by the selection of men available to her.

    And if anything, you should have gotten more responses in your 20’s from women your age, since not as many of them are looking to settle down.

    But the main phenomenon responsible for that behavior is that women’s standards do not go down over time (or due to circumstances – you must have observed an overweight (or whatever) woman feeling entitled to an attractive mate, no?). A woman can wait her entire life for a “prince”. This is something I remember reading in some scientific article.

74. Cilla Nov 26th 2008 at 10:01 am 74

    Mike X,

    Just got an unsolicited email from a 32-year-old (very hot). I’m 47. What’s wrong with being a cougar hunter? LOL

    Seriously, I think there are more subtle demographic divisions among both sexes than we acknowledge. It’s been my contention for a while that women under a certain age (probably around 26) are still partying, looking for fun, not thinking long-term or about having kids. That shifts as women approach 30 and becomes urgent for women approaching 40, assuming they are still childless and want children. There is another demographic group of women who have had children (or don’t want them) and are in their 30’s and 40’s. They are looking for different things in a relationship and may have a broader set of criteria for men. The same divisions apply to men, although their urgency to reproduce is obviously not driven by a biological clock. To lump everyone from the same age group together doesn’t make sense.

    Now, let’s complicate that scenario by assuming that as women age they may become more, not less, picky about their potential mates, even though statistics say this works against them. And men who have, say, been put through the ringer in divorce become pickier about finding their next mates, as well. Add having kids, or wanting kids, and things like geographic location, etc., and you have a complex situation that resists any kind of formula or algorithm for finding the perfect match.

    What I’m saying is: there is no magic equation for setting up your search criteria, no guarantees that just because you are of a certain age, women from a corresponding age group will be interested in you. I personally find very few men from my own age group interested in me; they are almost always 5-15 years younger or 5-10 years older. My theory is that the 45-year-old male is the equivalent of the 30-year-old female in terms of stringency of the selection process.

    You can set a very broad set of parameters and within that, look at each person individually. (Remember? Well, you probably don’t, since you’re so young, but people used to do that back in the day, before this whole Internet dating thing came along.) You can use statistics to fuel your search, but remember that this is life, not a math problem. At 32, the world should be your oyster.

75. JB Nov 26th 2008 at 10:47 am 75

    To Mike X……You’ll NEVER see a shift. Trust me I’m 48. Late 30’s,40’s 50’s ??? Forget it. Possibly in your 70’s because I hear there’s 4 women for every man ….LOL

    Most of you on here have never put up “test” profiles to actually see what really goes on. If all you’ve ever been is yourself online you can’t possibly understand the REALITY of online dating. I’ve been 40 different people online,all shapes,sizes,ages and attractiveness,male & female(straight only for both…lol) <–(I’m sure being gay opens up a whole different can of worms)
    It taught me so much because you actually see 99% of what you’re missing coming from only 1 point of reference. It was very enlightening and disheartening at the same time. Remember knowledge is power.

76. Joe Nov 26th 2008 at 11:26 am 76

    JB, would you mind sharing your discoveries?

77. qazarly Nov 26th 2008 at 04:49 pm 77

    Cilla, I am not contradicting myself because I am not bringing to the discussion personal anecdotal ‘evidence’, but the results of studies conducted by scientists applying rigorous scientific methodology. I don’t think my opinion, based on personal experience is worth much in comparison.
    In some cases these studies are showing the results of many thousands of dating interactions, and the different studies are for the most part supporting conclusions of other studies.
    Interestingly when women are interviewed on what they are looking for in a mate that doesnt always seem to bear any relation to what they ACTUALLY go for.
    Women are experts at picking up clues on wealth and status just based on looks, and in speed dating will have rejected or accept the guy in the time it takes him to sit down.
    Wealth is power of course which is the thing that attracts. Alpha males are few in number, but women will seek them out regardless of age. Men in their 80s will still desire the 25 year old.
    Our brains do not change – our rate of success does.
    I am also interested in JBs discoveries, but my guess it will follow the result of the studies.
    Men will send lots of email to attractive women regardless of their own status ,wealth or age. Women will reject all men who are short or poor or pretty much anyone who isnt physically attractive and/or wealthy.

78. JB Nov 27th 2008 at 06:57 am 78

    Well without boring everyone with a long drawn out post. My discovery of no matter what a guys profile says as long as it’s generic,harmless etc… and he has 2 or 3 very good looking (top 5%) pics he will get not only the most attractive women(8-10’s)which is expected but also a ton of 3’s -7’s who I can assure you have never dated anyone that looks like these guys. Now when these 3’s -7’s don’t hear from the attractive guy they won’t email ANY men who are in the 5-8 range. All of these profiles were basically the same stats EXCEPT attractiveness. So none of that is a real shock because as we all know on this blog everyone thinks of themselves as much higher. I know men do the same thing they email women way out of their league but I also think that men email more women in their league and below just because if we can’t get what we want we’ll take what we can get. What I found interesting is that when I put an attractive woman’s profile up in the same area and age range that I’m in(to see my competition so to speak as well as see who’s exactly emailing the women I email.)Their wasn’t 2 who I would email back if I was her. Leading me to wonder WHO are some of these women emailing and dating ??? Do they just come on to “window shop ?” Be validated on a daily basis ?? ie:.. “Wow you’re hot,can I take you out to dinner.We have so much in common”….LOL Possibly the “waiting for Prince Charming” syndrome ??? I’m sure all of the above. Oh and I love when a woman emails you and tells you with the “Thanks, but I’ve just met someone and want to see what develops” and then I wink at them with one of the “hottie” profiles and suddenly they’re single and available …lol Really ladies if you’re not interested ignore us & delete us we’re used to it ! Being that I consider myself a 5 or a 6 I probably do better than 90% of the guys online where as I think a very large percentage of men not only NEVER get a date they NEVER even get response. As I read most men’s profiles I feel sorry for them. They’re not only delusional but clueless. The women will always have the upper hand online but when you’re over 40 it’s online dating or bust. Their really are no other choices so you better be good at it.

79. Mike X Nov 27th 2008 at 12:29 pm 79

    JB,

    Thanks for sharing your insight. There is a dating coach out there who has claimed to have done the same thing as you (he also claims to have dated 398 women in four years) but I don’t trust a thing he says, because I’ve tried his methods and they don’t work.

    Anyhow, you said “I put an attractive woman’s profile up in the same area and age range that I’m in [....] Their wasn’t 2 who I would email back if I was her.”

    Why? Did the responses all come from ugly guys? Was their grammar horrendous? dId thEy RiTe LikE diS?

80. JuJu Nov 27th 2008 at 12:32 pm 80

    I think I may have mentioned it in another thread, but I remember reading in some scientific article that personal ads (of any kind, including internet) are primarily used by omega men, and are a rather hopeless resource for alpha women.

81. JB Nov 27th 2008 at 08:25 pm 81

    Well Mike the truth is and I’m sure the women will back me up on this.There’s just an abundance of badly written boring,generic profiles with badly taken photo’s of average to unattractive men out there. There’s an equal amount of bad women’s profile’s it’s just they all ignore each other. You know what always shocks me the most ? When I see people that advertise they have a college degree and they can’t string 5 sentences together to make a coherent profile ! …LOL
    I know all about dating coach Dave M and I don’t use what he teaches but I’m sure it may work better for very attractive guys unfortunately that leaves average guys out.

82. qazarly Nov 28th 2008 at 06:33 am 82

    The statistics I have shown above indicate that the key problem is that women are only interested in the very top of the scale. They do not realise just how selective they are. To them men of 6ft are plentiful – in reality only 15% of the population at best.
    Most women online wouldn’t give a guy with the national average salary a second look. 50% of men will earn less than this average.
    If only 5% have the right income, and 5% have the right looks, and 15% have the right height, and 10% have the right intelligence then it follows that women will be perfectly happy with one man in 30,000 and half of them will suffer from substantial hair loss !

83. JuJu Nov 28th 2008 at 02:12 pm 83

    That scientific work I keep referring to (it’s not actually an article, but a book on the mating behavior of humans) mentioned that if it were socially acceptable, and economically feasible, and psychologically desirable, women would mimic the mating preferences of sea lions, in the natural habitat of which 4% of the males impregnate 88% of the females.

84. JuJu Nov 28th 2008 at 02:21 pm 84

    I sincerely thank you, qazarly. This has been most enlightening and eye-opening.

    If you have any more pertinent info, keep it coming.

85. Kenley Nov 28th 2008 at 04:36 pm 85

    I found this quotation below and while it’s written from the male perspective, I think it applies to women too…

    I was looking for the perfect woman and I found her. Alas, all did not end well because she was looking for the perfect man!

    The problem with online dating is people think they can find perfection and my other favorite quotation is you don’t have to be perfect to be wonderful. Wish more people would remember that!

86. Kenley Nov 28th 2008 at 09:27 pm 86

    In post #85 what I really meant is that I wish more people actually believed that the right person doesn’t have to be perfect to be wonderful. The pursuit of perfection is what keeps most people unattached.

    Qazarly,
    While statistics are useful and important overall, they don’t really matter much when your personal experience is so vastly different. And my personal experience as an average woman seeking a connection on-line is that not a whole bunch of men are seeking average women either. The whole photo thing, which is what most men and lots of women use as the first hurdle, doesn’t take into account the animal attraction that you can have with a person that defies explanation as well as your image of what is attractive about a man. I know the most potent attraction I had was with someone with whom I didn’t even think was handsome. Yet, we both shared an instant and magnetic charge that neither of us could resist. If I had seen a picture of him, I would have dismissed him without a second thought. Somestimes chemistry is not what you expect, but online dating rarely lets you get to it because most of us rely too heavily on photos to weed people in or out of our consideration set.

    But, I do remember there was one time when a guy’s profile was so compelling to me that I ignored his photo and decided to meet him. In that instance, he looked about a million times better than his photo and I experienced that red hot, instant, and mutual attraction with him. I was literally giddy after meeting him. Unfortunately, he was only interested in a casual relationship so we never made it to date two. But, the lesson I learned once again is that photos don’t always tell the whole story…sometimes they do, but not always. So, I try to give guys a chance even if their photos don’t make my heart skip a beat. Yet, I know very, very, few guys who will go out with a woman if they don’t find her physically attractive…that’s just been my personal experience. Or if they do go out with a woman they don’t find all that attractive, they let her know that they are settling, and who wants to be told — hey, you’re not what I really want, but you’re all I can get?

87. JuJu Nov 29th 2008 at 07:43 pm 87

    Or if they do go out with a woman they don’t find all that attractive, they let her know that they are settling, and who wants to be told — hey, you’re not what I really want, but you’re all I can get?

    Wow, people really do that?!?
    That is some astounding lack of class.

    In this case, you don’t need the guy not just because he isn’t all that attracted to you, but simply because he is an ass.

    This is a truly ugly person.

88. Jason Dec 1st 2008 at 05:47 pm 88

    When i found out about Internet dating about eight years ago i thought it was going to be the answer to my dating prayers.Im considered good looking by some of my friends,so all i had to do, i thought was put my photo online sit back and wait for dozens of emails from sexy women to come rolling in.

    OH OH !!

    No Replies after sending out ten emails,then twenty emails then thirty emails!

    What the hell is going on here?

    I was thinking was it my photo? or did i came across as to rude(far from it)

    I then starting looking for other mens Internet dating experiences and to my relief found this was normal for most men.

    What i find amazing is some of the women in the 30s with the “waiting for the prince charming” sydrome.Im 38 and ive written to women in their mid-late 30s who you would think would be bitting your hand off to go on a date due to their options being less than they were in their 20s.

    Not a bit of it i would get the “sorry your not my type” or you would see they have looked at your profile and dont even write back.I dip in and out of Internet date because its so frustrating and disheartning if your a bloke.

    The other thing that grates me is if i chatted this women up in a bar or the street im sure they would be receptive and i would be able to get thier phone numbers,You cant convey sexual chemistry on the interent,and thats a big part of attraction.

    Jason

89. Kenley Dec 1st 2008 at 07:04 pm 89

    Jason,

    From what I’ve heard, I don’t think you would actually like a woman who was biting her hand off to go on a date you with you — she would ooze desperation and most men don’t think desperation is attractive jewelery on a woman. The other thing is that your assumption that these women have less options than they did in their 20s may not be true. If these women weren’t on the internet in their 20s, it may actually feel like they have way more options than they did when they were younger because they are getting hundreds of emails a week. In the real world, I don’t think many women get hit on by hundreds of men in a week. So relative to the 20 somethings she’s competing with today, the mid-late 30 year old has fewer guys trying to woo her, but relative to her younger self, she may actually be overwhelmed.

90. Joe Dec 2nd 2008 at 11:42 am 90

    qazarly (#82), that is not quite inaccurate. 50% of men earn the median–not the average–salary or less.

91. Glenda Dec 2nd 2008 at 02:51 pm 91

    Joe–Actually, half of the men do not EARN the median salary; rather, the median salary is that number where half the population falls above and half falls below. And it’s used as a more accurate number than the average qazarly quoted, since it’s not affected by extreme outliers, such as multi-billionaires, who would skew the average (or mean) salary upwards.

92. hunter Dec 2nd 2008 at 05:18 pm 92

    on post #89,

    “she would ooze desperation”,,,,,I like the phrase….hhmmmhhh…

93. hunter Dec 2nd 2008 at 07:48 pm 93

    on post #86

    Any man that tells a woman, he is settling, on account of not finding someone else, is asking to be dismissed/dropped/booted/bye-bye…..not all men know how to leave/exit/say this is not working out, some of us we just need a big boot up our bottom!!……

94. hunter Dec 2nd 2008 at 08:03 pm 94

    on post #80

    JuJu,

    Really? Are there lots and lots of Alpha women out there?……

95. hunter Dec 2nd 2008 at 10:07 pm 95

    To Cilla on post #74,

    Sometimes I wish more women would become cougar hunters.(common practice all over Europe) This way, Women might be more at ease when going on a date with the man they really want.

96. JuJu Dec 2nd 2008 at 10:43 pm 96

    All I can say, Hunter, is that specifically _online_ I saw more quality women than I have men.

97. Cilla Dec 3rd 2008 at 11:27 am 97

    Hunter,

    I don’t get it. How can a woman become a cougar hunter? Do you mean you wish more women were comfortable dating younger men, i.e. being “cougars?” If that’s the case, I agree with you. I think everyone in general should be comfortable dating whomever they want, and society shouldn’t care. No one looks twice when a younger woman goes out with an older man. Maybe if women weren’t labeled “cougars,” however, they would be more comfortable. As long as a negative connotation is attached, some women will simply not date younger men.

    For what it’s worth, I’ve dated 9 men, including 2 LTRs, since my divorce. One was four years older than me, two were two years older than me, and six were younger than me. The greatest age difference was 19 years younger than me. While I’m currently looking in a slighter narrower age range, I’d have no problem dating a significantly younger guy if he were sure he didn’t want children. I take constant flak from my friends and neighbors for it, and I have stopped defending myself. I just tell them I do what makes me happy, then turn the inquisition around to them and grill them about all the great decisions they’ve made in their love lives LOL. Believe me, that shuts them up fast!

98. starthrower68 Dec 3rd 2008 at 07:08 pm 98

    You can pretty much answer this question with the title of another one of Evan’s posts: “Men look for sex and find love, women look for love and find sex”.

99. Michael Jul 4th 2009 at 11:31 am 99

    I don’t think you would actually like a woman who was biting her hand off to go on a date you with you — she would ooze desperation and most men don’t think desperation is attractive jewelery on a woman.
    Can desperation on her part be taken advantage of?

100. Karl R Jul 4th 2009 at 03:18 pm 100

     Michael,
     Let me turn your question around.

     Let’s say a man was desperate to get into a long-term relationship. Perhaps he felt insecure about himself because all his peers were married or in long-term relationships. Lets say this man was desperate to get into a relationship so he could “measure up” to these peers.

     Do you think it would be possible for a woman to take advantage of this man?

     Would it be possible for a woman to date this man, while repeatedly cheating on him with other men, then get him to repeatedly “forgive” her, since his only choices would be to allow her cheating or be alone again?

     Would it be possible for a woman to persuade this desperate man that he needed to spend beyond his means in order to win / keep her affections?

     Would it be possible for the woman to bully the man into always doing things her way, since she could threaten to leave him if he ever stood up for himself?

     I don’t believe men and women are that different. I think it is no more difficult to take advantage of a desperate woman than it is to take advantage of a desperate man.

     I also believe it’s completely unethical to take advantage of someone who is desperate. But there are no shortage of unethical people (or desperate people) in the world.

101. Michael Jul 5th 2009 at 08:30 am 101

     It makes you wonder why desperate people can not find each other.

     One could set up a dating website catering to desperate people, but then how would one filter out the kind of people whom you mentioned above?

102. JB Jul 5th 2009 at 08:04 pm 102

     Desperate people can’t find each other online for the same reason that people that are 3’s,4’s and 5’s don’t email each other online and date each other. No one THINKS or realizes they’re desperate and no one thinks they’re a 3 or a 4 or a 5.
     A great percentage of men & women online are delusional and unrealistic.

103. Joe Jul 6th 2009 at 06:22 am 103

     Yeah, but one person’s 3, 4 or 5 is another person’s 6, 7 or 8. :p

104. Michael Jul 6th 2009 at 06:01 pm 104

     My biggest problem is finding something witty or funny to write.

105. Michael Jul 6th 2009 at 06:11 pm 105

     I wonder why most people do not like Asians.

106. Michael Jul 6th 2009 at 06:16 pm 106

     You may be right.

     I noticed still-active profiles on my Favorites list that are at least two years old, and the women are somewhat good-looking.

107. Ugly Short Guy Jul 15th 2009 at 08:39 am 107

     Online dating doesn’t work because women don’t use the internet to actually meet and date men. Most women only use it to reinforce in themselves the notion that their prolonged single-status is NOT their fault, but instead because of the fact that there are simply “no good men to date.”

     Here’s how it plays out: a women sets up an online dating profile. She immediately gets 200 messages. She ignores all those messages because there are just too many to handle and starts her own “search.” What she searches for are the tallest and hottest guys she can find, whom she messages right away. After not hearing back from those few guys (or getting replies and realizing they’re complete morons/jerks/losers) she gives up altogether, claiming “there were no good men to date online.”

     However, if women would use online dating to find men who have common interests and good personalities, they might actually end up on some good dates. BUT, that’s not what women do. They only search for and contact tall and hot guys, then when those don’t pan out, they give up.

108. JB Jul 15th 2009 at 10:47 am 108

     Well they would say “why can’t I have a tall hot guy with common interests and good personality?” and we know the answer is because women that are 5’s don’t get or date men that are 9’s and 10’s and vice versa. Attraction works a lot different online than in real life because of all the so called “stats” you have on paper in front of you like income,occupation,residence,education etc……all of which matter to women a lot more than men.

     And actually I’ve been several “tall hot guys” online and for the most part most of the most attractive women DO NOT initiate contact with them(for fear of rejection I would assume or because they feel they shouldn’t have to) but they will “look” at them a lot and let it be known that they’re “viewing” their profile basically saying “here I am,notice me !!!” in hopes of having the tall hottie initiate and show interest first. Mostly the tall hot guys only get initiated contact by the delusional obese 4 or 5 or the occasional “cougar” but seldom his equal. On occasion a woman who’s his equal might email or wink,it’s rare but it does happen. Yes,I’m sure the 9’s and 10’s on any given site get together……lol Just like in real life. No shock there.

109. Michael Jul 26th 2009 at 11:18 am 109

     For some women, all men are zeroes.

110. Anna Sep 13th 2009 at 01:17 pm 110

     Online dating doesn’t work for most people. Out of a straw poll of 10 friends who have tried online dating, only one met someone online who they had a long-term (longer than six months) relationship.

     The other 9 found that the people they met on dates 1) were a lot older or bigger than they claimed on their profile, 2) looked nothing like their online photo(s) or 3) were clearly after one thing only.

     It’s a good idea but the reality is that the internet doesn’t provide solutions for every aspect of human life.

111. A-L Sep 14th 2009 at 08:24 am 111

     RE: Anna’s #110
     A few questions
     1. What percentage of these friends are male and what percentage are female?
     2. What percentage of dates that you or your friends go on (that did not come from online dating) make it to 6+ months?
     3. How many of these matches did you or your friends initiate vs how many of these dates were initiated by the other person?

112. Steve Oct 12th 2009 at 04:43 pm 112

     I’ve been Internet dating for almost a year now, since my 10-year relationship tragically and stupidly broke up.
     I’m unusually good-looking and fit, but I’m 52.  I’ve encountered huge amounts of age discrimination.  Most women don’t even include my age group in their searches because they assume that 50 = dead.  Even though I can outmuscle most guys half my age.
     I have had a few dates, a brief (one month) relationship, and I caught caught up in one embarrassing scam.  All my experiences have been pretty bad.  Many of the women I’ve met have lied about all sorts of things, or omitted important information.  The one-month woman was patently crazy, very disturbed.
     But the main reality is, there just isn’t much action for a guy my age on these websites.  I don’t get responses to my nice, polite emails, and women rarely initiate contact with me, notwithstanding my “hardbody” and nice smile and solid, rational profiles.
     I agree with Evan that online dating represents an opportunity, especially for rural farmboys like myself.  But, although I persist in the search, I’m gradually abandoning hope.  Looks like I’m going to have to learn to be more happy with just myself.  I call this the “hermit option.”
     My dad used to say, “There are worse things than being alone.”  It’s oh so true.  Nothing is worse than a nightmare relationship.  Then, trust me,  you pray for sweet loneliness.
     Thank God for dogs.

113. Kristyn Oct 13th 2009 at 07:13 am 113

     @Steve
     I am 39, almost 40.  I’ve met online and dated men who were 25 – 51.  I get emails and flirts from mostly younger guys (between 20 – 30).   Ideally, though, I’d like someone closer to my age and am always thrilled when someone who is my age contacts me.   
     Really, 50 year old women think a man who is 52 is dead?    Who do you think they are dating?

114. Ava Oct 13th 2009 at 08:55 am 114

     Steve #112
      
     Are you contacting women in your own age range? As in 40-50’s? If you’re a good-looking, fit, nice guy, it’s hard for me to believe women aren’t interested. If women aren’t including your age in their searches, it must be because you’re contacting women under 40, and correct, most of them are looking for men closer to their own age.
      
      

115. Selena Oct 13th 2009 at 02:10 pm 115

     @ Steve #112

     Like Ava, I’m also curious about the age range of women you are contacting.  Generally, women prefer men within their own generation.  If you are writing to women 10 or more years younger than you, be aware of this.

     That issue non-withstanding, I can guess being rural might be a factor.  Simply less to choose from. A couple years ago I read of a site called farmers.com, I believe it was – you might try looking into a specialized site like that to meet women who live in/are interested in – living in the country opposed to those who are definite “city girls”.

     I spend part of the year living in “Amish country” so to speak - so I know how difficult it can be to meet singles where there are sparse places to meet anyone period.

116. Steve Oct 13th 2009 at 04:31 pm 116

     Thanks very much for your nice comments, Krystyn, Ava, and Selena.
     Part of my difficulty is that I look, act, and feel like I’m 40 or even younger, not 52.  But women closer to my age tend to look more like my mother.  So I feel out-of-step with women in their 50s, and have indeed sought a younger match.  But at least I’ve kept an open mind, and routinely include women in my age group in my searches.
     Another part of the difficulty is that there seems to be a trend among women to prefer men younger than themselves.   For example, a 40-year-old women might say she’s looking for a man 28-40.  This reverses a longstanding tradition according to which the man is older than the woman.
     I feel left out in the cold.  I’ve been extending my searches to places like the Philippines, where more traditional values still apply.  But dating someone overseas, esp. in a Third World country,  poses huge challenges.
      

117. Rick Dec 15th 2009 at 12:39 pm 117

     Women who end up online dating were not chosen in the real world.  Any charming, good looking woman, with her life together has plenty of opportunities in the real world to be picked up.  All she has to do is express a little interest and the guys will be calling. ( Ya, ya, I know, some girls are just too busy to meet people in the real world…but then, what kind of relationship are you going to have with Miss too busy anyway).  So, all the girls in the online dating pool are the ones passed over.  They feel rejected.  They put up their profiles and, all of a sudden, they are being chosen.  And not by 1 guy, but by dozens wanting to meet them.  So, its zero to hero for them in an instant.  And it goes straight to their head.  So, you have the instant ego boost combined with the issues that lead her to online dating in the first place.  Not a good combination for any self respecting man to deal with.  That’s why online dating sucks for guys.  Quality women have no need to advertise.

118. Steve Dec 18th 2009 at 05:34 am 118

     Dating sucks period, Rick.  But you make excellent points.  However, I think that with so much shifting to “online” these days, online dating is more of the norm today than it was just a few years ago.  So maybe it doesn’t just attract losers.
     Still, what you wrote makes a lot of sense.  By now, I have dated or at least communicated with several women I met online, and all of them had mental (and physical) issues I found hard to contemplate living with permanently.
     As they say, there is someone for everyone, though, and I’ll just keep trying until I croak.

119. Rick Dec 28th 2009 at 12:19 pm 119

     I wish you the best Steve.  And, I never wrote that it was just ‘losers’ who online date.  I actually have met some pretty successful women online dating.  But even they were passed over in ‘the real world’ for a reason, and it became apparent in short order.  Even though it is more technologically acceptable to meet people this way than it was 10 years ago, normal, attractive girls just don’t need to do it.  With family, friends, work , the gym, etc….these girls do just fine without online dating.  It’s the ones who don’t that end up on the dating sites. And in a rural area, if she’s average looking and in any kind of decent shape, the online competition between the men just overwhelms her, and them as well.  Since, as I wrote, good looking normal girls just aren’t online dating.  And, you end up seeing them still active 6 months, 1 year, 3 years from now….still looking for that perfect guy; more evidence that something’s  just not right.  I would love to prove myself wrong, and still hold out hope to do so.  But so far, this has been the reality for me every time.

120. Kristyn Dec 29th 2009 at 06:54 am 120

     Guess I’m not a good looking, quality normal girl.  Good thing I read this blog or I wouldn’t never have known.  Thanks for the enlightenment Rick.

121. Kristyn Dec 29th 2009 at 07:02 am 121

     I was probably “passed over” because I don’t proof read my comments before I submit them. 

122. Kristyn Dec 29th 2009 at 08:20 am 122

     Sorry about snapping.  I sometimes get offended when it feels like someone passes blanket judgments about a whole group of which I belong.  I think that they are (hopefully) commenting about their own personal experiences and less about me.   I would never assume that all (insert group) are (insert trait/characteristic/flaw) because I know people are individuals.  And btw – I’m equally offended when someone says “all men are jerks” or whatever because it justn’t so.    Maybe the last guy was a jerk (he wasn’t) but so what?  Doesn’t mean the next guy will be.  If the last girl you met online had major issues doesn’t mean they all will.  The day I quit seeing people as individuals – with both good and bad qualities – and simple see them as a group (or worse as the enemy) is the day I become a hermit and go live in a cave by myself.         

123. Joe Dec 29th 2009 at 09:04 am 123

     Well, Rick, if your opinion is that people who are into online dating have something wrong with them, nobody would ever find anyone online, since those who are looking are seeing people who are  similarly flawed.

124. Rick Dec 29th 2009 at 12:08 pm 124

     Kristen and Joe - I apologize if I offended you.  Online dating is very frustrating, which makes me eat so many lemons.  I am just speaking from personal experience, which seems to be similar to Steve’s, and many other men’s experience with online dating.  Out of all of my female friends (and I have more female friends then male) very, very few have ever tried online dating.  They just don’t have to.  The few that do try it, to be honest, are the ones that have the significant issues with their behavior, weight, or have 2 + children.  I’m sure there are exceptions to this, and maybe this just happens in the small town I live in.  Believe me, I wish I was writing that online dating is awesome, and has led to many healthy relationships for me.  But the truth is, I haven’t had 1 quality relationship occur from online dating.  And I’ve been one of the  fortunate men to have been able to actually go out on dates with the women I meet online.   Most men, from what I read, aren’t even that lucky.  It doesn’t seem like it works for the girls either, as I still see the same ones online, years after I first joined.  I was just making a general statement about my experience.  I truly hope you are right, and that I have yet to meet the individual that will change my mind.

125. Jennifer Dec 29th 2009 at 02:22 pm 125

     Rick #117- Sometimes the scenario is quite different than the one you describe. You have some women online that are approached quite often ‘irl’ but not by the guys she wants to meet.  So she goes online thinking the guys may be a bit more ’serious’, or looking for the more introverted guy that is too shy to approach her in the store.
     You have women that have gotten out of relationships and are getting out there to meet people- online is just another way, like going out with friends or to clubs etc.

     I get that your experience with women online has been less than ideal, but I hope you realize that the conclusions you’ve drawn about why that is are far from representative of everyone.

126. JB Dec 29th 2009 at 04:25 pm 126

     Jennifer’s also leaving out another huge reason some women especially older women prefer online to “irl”. Online they can “shop”(qualify) specifically by numbers as well as looks ie: Height,income,education etc…. where as “irl” they have no say as to who approaches them. You can’t easily ignore or delete a guy “irl” who shows interest at a bar or singles event as you can online. 

127. Diana Dec 30th 2009 at 06:52 am 127

     Given that so many profiles are not honest, if some women are going based on numbers (and even photos can be fake), they could run into trouble. My online profile has very few preferences and there are no preferences set for: income, education, salary, job, religion, or physical traits. I am an attractive woman who has been told that my profile is clever, so you might would think my in box would stay at least a little busy, but that’s not the case. Loads of guys view my profile, but very few approach. I think my biggest detractor for guys is the fact that I have two children living at home, although they are older teens. That’s too bad (for the guys, anyway). Ce la vie.

128. JB Dec 30th 2009 at 12:10 pm 128

     Diana,I don’t mean that women’s profiles are set with “preferences” the “qualifiers” are in the mind as they search. Most sites won’t let you “”disqualify” or “filter out” who emails you except Plenty of Fish who’ll let you decide by age or if you have a photo who you will accept emails from but not obviously height,education,income etc… I’m just saying that “SOME” women not all do use and stick to certain criteria.That’s what Evan is trying to get them to change and stop being so rigid.

     I know personally for myself that recently I’ve actually gotten responses from women who’s first question they ask is “tell me what you do and where you work” and then after I tell them. I’m disqualified and I never hear from them again. Not all of them,but some.

     Just like I don’t disqualify against a woman with kids under 15 for THAT reason alone but I have to draw the line somewhere and recently it was at a woman with 4 kids under 16 who sent me a recent pic (NOT in her profile btw) that  was 20-30 lbs heavier than the one IN her profile. We all have our “deal breakers” don’t we…lol It’s just for men we usually don’t let what a woman does for a living or her income,education etc…break the deal all that often.
     We’re so superficial….lol So are the women believe me…lol

129. Joe Dec 30th 2009 at 12:26 pm 129

     C’est la vie, indeed.

     Maybe it’s just me, but I’ve noticed that on Match people who don’t fill in an answer on one of the questions (e.g. body type, hair color, etc.) don’t show up in searches unless the searcher has no preference on that question.  So if you were looking for someone with all but one hair color (and had checked off all the boxes but one), you would not find someone who has “no answer” listed but who may very well fit the bill.

130. Diana Dec 31st 2009 at 07:03 am 130

     Thanks for mentioning that, Joe. I search based on age and location. I have all of my details listed. I just click on “no preference” for several of the “what am I looking for” items. Most of the profiles that Match sends my way get disqualified due to their location.
      
     I had a good chuckle one time when I privately labored over whether a man I was genuinely interested in was living too far away. When I finally let him know this, he sounded irate and asked me whether I was interested in having a relationship or dating my next door neighbor. Well, I guess it depends on your next door neighbor.

131. A-L Jan 2nd 2010 at 08:55 am 131

     Can’t quite figure out where to post this, so it’s going here.  How do most people search for people on Match.com?  Do they search via activity date?  Newest first?  Just the default “Match picks” mode?  A different way?
      
     The reason why I ask is because I am trying to convince my friend to at least log in to her account daily, even if she does nothing, just so that her account will be active within 24 hours.  Because last night while we were searching for her it was 8 pages of 18 profiles per page before  we got to people who had been active less often than that.  So since she only logs in 1-2 times per week, I was telling her that most guys would never find her in a search.  (Her profile is far from new, the alphabetical order search wouldn’t help her…she does have a picture so she might randomly come up sooner in that or in the semi-random Match.com default search but no guarantees there.)

132. JB Jan 2nd 2010 at 06:14 pm 132

     All my searches are in this order

     1. Newest profiles first
     2. Distance from my house (closest first obviously)
     3. Active within a week

     I’m sure most people on every site know if you’re not active in over a week it’s not a great thing. But on Match for guys searching by “distance” first she should still come up to those guys nearest to her on the first page even if she hasn’t logged on in 2 or 3 days.

133. Diana Jan 2nd 2010 at 06:30 pm 133

     Hi A-L. I don’t know how people search on Match, but I make it a point to update my profile every few days, even if it’s just a minor tweak. It helps to keep my profile near the top, if the guy is doing a general search based on age and location.

134. Michael Jan 3rd 2010 at 05:37 pm 134

     Can’t quite figure out where to post this, so it’s going here. How do most people search for people on Match.com? Do they search via activity date? Newest first? Just the default “Match picks” mode? A different way?
     I search for women between 32 and 33, living within 20 miles.

135. JB Jan 3rd 2010 at 08:39 pm 135

     ^^^^^^^^^^
     32 and 33 !!!!!!  …you’re kidding right ??

136. Rick Jan 4th 2010 at 06:46 am 136

     Jennifer – Actually, the conclusions I’ve drawn about why internet dating hasn’t worked for me do seem representative of what most men go through.  A few Google searches about online dating or reading many of the above posts seem to reinforce my opinion.  And, that’s all it is, my opinion; based upon my own life.  You are certainly right that there are other types of girls online dating then those I have met.  The world is a big place.  But they do seem to be the exception, not the rule.  If a guy were to ask me what I think of online dating, I would share with him my experiences. They are the only truth I know.  I wouldn’t share with him what ’potential experiences’ I think are out there.  I’d tell him about my actual interactions and dates, and the conclusions I have come to based upon them.  Believe me, and I can’t stress this enough, I hold out hope for the type of girl you described.   Best of luck to us all in the New Year.

137. Ava Jan 4th 2010 at 09:50 am 137

     Rick #124
      
     If the women you encounter online are so bad, why aren’t you dating one of your many high-quality female friends?

138. tony Jan 13th 2010 at 04:18 pm 138

     is online dating a good thing or a bad thing? it depends – are you male or female? for most men it is not very good and heres why:
     -Far fewer females than males, usually its anywhere from 2x more men up to 10x as many males as there are females
     -Of the women that do post, the percentage of attractive women is much smaller than the percentage of attractive women out in the real world. ( to test this brows a dating site, then walk down a crowded street and compare) 
      -add to this that on some site many female profiles are fakes made by the site to attract males. Many are also fakes that spam once they get your email (especially CL where almost all the W4M are spam)
         For women on the other hand.. it might not be so bad, even pretty good maybe. 
     - the biggest complaint from women is that its not easy to find the perfect guy (but are the choices available online so much worse than (irl))
     + women get messaged often, get replies to thier messages and can go on dates if they choose ( my guess based on the numbers discrepency).

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