Feb03

Don’t Judge a Book By Its Cover – In Defense of “Marry Him: The Case for Settling for Mr. Good Enough” by Lori Gottlieb

08:00 am on Feb 3rd 2010 Evan Marc Katz

Finding the One Online is a comprehensive, life-changing program that covers everything I teach my clients about online dating. If you want to get your love life on track and aren't sure where to start, Finding the One Online is the best investment you can make.

131 Comments »Filed Under Book Reviews, Dating Tips & Advice, Evan's Press, Promotions and Products, Sex & Relationship Advice

131 Responses to “Don’t Judge a Book By Its Cover – In Defense of “Marry Him: The Case for Settling for Mr. Good Enough” by Lori Gottlieb”

1. Lisa Feb 3rd 2010 at 10:36 am 1

   I haven’t read this book, but I’ve read a lot about it and it’s already changed my way of thinking. I’m 27 and not married but I would like to be one day. I have a habit of writing men off after the first day if I don’t feel that “connection”, even if they seem like good guys who are interested in me. I think it’s time I started giving things more of a chance to develop, rather than writing it off after one 2 hour date. Not to say that I would continue to see someone if I’m absolutely not attracted to them either physically or emotionally, but just give things more of a chance. I’m still pretty young so I might have a bit more time to work with then other women, but I’m glad I’m coming to this realization now, rather then 10 years down the line. It’s not about “settling”, it’s about “compromising”…there’s a big difference and I agree with the theory.

2. Honey Feb 3rd 2010 at 11:09 am 2

   Jake is my first real “long-term” relationship and now that we’ve been together 4 years, I can say that I have compromised on something every single day.  But he also makes me happy and fulfilled in a way I’ve never been.  So how could I resent the compromise that makes the happiness possible?

3. Katherine Feb 3rd 2010 at 11:35 am 3

   the reason she entitled the book that way was to stir controversy – even if its negative, it catches attention and it sells.

4. Amanda Feb 3rd 2010 at 11:42 am 4

   Amazon just emailed me saying my book has shipped! I cannot wait to read this. She was featured in an article in Elle or Marie Claire recently speaking about the book and her own life and it seems right on the money. Life is not a fairy tale so there’s no use waiting for Prince Charming to show up. Looking at the relationships around me, I think it’s pretty easy to see compromise is what makes a relationship work and no one (not even me!) is perfect. Thanks for promoting  what I’m sure will be a great read!

5. Angela Crisp Feb 3rd 2010 at 12:01 pm 5

   Unfortunately, the title of this book really turns me off.  If it is a conscious decision on the part of the author, I assume she means me, lol.  It sounds like something every divorce lawyer would cheer.  If it is about all those ingredients that keep people together, it sounds like settling down because you are tired.  I am 44 years old, never married, and completely happy dating.  If something does not work out, at least I have never landed in divorce court.  I have had some wonderful, and fulfilling relationships along this path.  I would never encourage someone to settle, rather to understand that no one is perfect, myself included.  Every man I have been with has taught me something, most have taught me the most important lessons I have ever learned with no tuition to burden me later.   Moving on is always painful, but so are a lot of other aspects of life.  If this author wants me to believe something else about the work, a better title would help.  Most of the reviews on the internet seem to have read the work.  I, for one, don’t need to compromise with a man, I need better understanding, which is not compromise at all, it is intimacy.  He never does anything for me, I haven’t needed to do for him on some other level.  That’s what works for me, not simple accommodation which is what this book seems to promote to its readers, that’s where communication matters, not what a text purports to promote on its face.  I also think the men I have been with would be insulted by the idea I “settled” for them rather than desiring them, regardless of the flaws that we all possess.  I am a happy single, and actively dating.  No problem.  I like men, they are quite fun, and not a problem at all.  I feel no pressure to conform to the 1.8 divorces per person of the culture.  Let’s get happy here, and quit following canned advice.  I like this blog when it responds to individuals.

6. Evan Marc Katz Feb 3rd 2010 at 12:07 pm 6

   I can’t speak for the author, but I think the title was the publisher’s idea. And, once again, the author doesn’t advocate a loveless marriage and future divorce. Perhaps you’ll read it, Angela, and let me know personally what you think. Thanks for your thoughts.

7. Steve Feb 3rd 2010 at 01:09 pm 7

   This recurring conversation wouldn’t happen if people didn’t translate
    
   “Do not have perfectionist, unrealistic and or unlikely lists of demands”
    
   Into:
    
   “Settle for a loveless, passionless relationship with George Costanza”
    
    
    
    

8. Joe Feb 3rd 2010 at 01:45 pm 8

   I thought this book was very common sense.  In fact, I’m actually surprised that many women are upset about the topic, especially those who want children.  I’m sure Angela is happy but at 44 she’s probably not going to have biological kids.  I have met many women who want to get married by 25 or 30 just so they can have kids before they get too old.  Men can afford to wait, but if you don’t want kids then don’t get married.  I feel sad for Gottlieb because she was so focused on perfection and even had a child with a faceless donor, that she got the perfect man seed without actually learning to compromise at all.

9. sayanta Feb 3rd 2010 at 01:56 pm 9

   hey- at least George would keep you laughing.

10. InaccessibleRail Feb 3rd 2010 at 02:25 pm 10

    I’m excited about this book. In fact, a lot of my personal experience bears it out.
    When I first read the preceding article of that name, I was repulsed.
    And then I met the love of my life. He made me feel things I’d never thought possible, and we connected on a hitherto unimaginable, cosmic level. We had terrific sex.
    But after a time, it became clear to me that what I thought was Mr. Right was also Mr. Always Right. He was in addition impossibily commitmentphobic. He was faithful, attentive, and very romantic, but wouldn’t budge on the marriage issue.
    These days, I think maybe I dodged a bullet. He’s still in my circle of friends, and I run into him occasionally. Now that I’m no longer passionately consumed with him, it’s hard to imagine how we could have gone the distance.
    It would have been so easy for us to get married. We’d been together over a year. We had a ton in common, and he was very passionate about me. We never fought- but later I realized it was because I usually just let him have his way. Looking back, I made very few of the decisions. If he hadn’t had bad childhood experiences that led to him being anti-marriage, I could have, blinded by passion, very easily walked into an unhappy marriage with this man.
    Throughout my whole experience with Mr. Always Right, my best friend, Mr. Unexciting, was there. He stayed up with me and listened to me whine and cry about how Mr. Always Right didn’t love me enough to marry me. And if he loved me, wouldn’t he marry me? And should I give him an ultimatum? Should I move in? I did this for MONTHS. He was always there, like he always had been.
    My relationship with Mr. AR exploded spectacularly around Christmastime. We exchanged presents anyways, because we’d already bought them. He got me books.
    A few days later, on Christmas Day, Mr. Unexciting drove five hours in a blizzard to give me my Christmas present. I realized that day that he was in love with me. And had been for a long time. I’d never thought twice about him, because I didn’t feel the butterflies, the weak knees. I didn’t get that weird and intoxicating “we knew each other in a past life” vibe.
    But you know what? I’ve gradually become ok with that. He pursued me relentlessly after the breakup, and finally I gave in because frankly, I ran out of reasons not to.
    I’m really surprised how happy I am these days. With him, it’s a quiet sort of happy.
    One of these days, Mr. Unexciting will ask me to marry him. I know this as sure as I know the sun will rise tomorrow, and when he does, I’ll say yes.
    Does this mean I’m settling? Maybe to some people. It’ll never be as exciting or passionate as it was with Mr. AR. But every relationship that’s had that ridiculous amount of passion has left many other things to be desired. IMO, passion doesn’t necessarily mean you can’t be together, but it does a great job of obscuring when you SHOULDN’T.
    When I walk down the aisle, it will be with eyes wide open, toward a man who, despite the fact that he looks nothing like Prince Charming, cared enough about me to wait for me, pursue me, and want a life with me. YMMV, but I’m with Gottlieb 100% on this one.
     
    tl;dr: It’s not an issue of stopping waiting for Mr. Perfect and acquiescing to the first warm body who approaches you with something shiny. It’s about realizing that passion is a poor indicator of compatibility. If you’ve got to view it as settling, just remember this: winding up with a decently attractive man who will be a great father, who will work for an honest day’s living and who loves you very much is one hell of a silver medal.
     
     

11. Brenda Feb 3rd 2010 at 03:24 pm 11

    Love the above post – Mr. Unexciting sounds very exciting in terms of a mate!  My passion-filled relationships, where I would have the nervous/butterflies in my stomach symptoms, never went anywhere so I am looking for a man who will be there for me in a million different ways………..

    I just ordered the book through amazon.com – thanks to Evan,  I have started to look way beyond the “hot” men and for the real substance………..men I would not have normally given much attention to. I find this new “type” of man I am dating to be much more “marriagable”, which is my relationship goal……..

12. Karl R Feb 3rd 2010 at 03:51 pm 12

    InaccessibleRail said: (#10)
    “passion doesn’t necessarily mean you can’t be together, but it does a great job of obscuring when you SHOULDN’T.”
    
    Evan, you might want to file this one away in your list of great quotes.

    Angela Crisp said: (#5)
    “I, for one, don’t need to compromise with a man,”
    
    I agree that you can continue to live a happy and fulfilling life without a man.

    But if you want a long-term relationship, compromise will have to be part of it. When you and your boyfriend disagree, you need to be able to compromise. If not, any little disagreement becomes a dealbreaker (if he is also uncompromising). The other possibility is that he gives in and does things your way every single time.

    Think about how distasteful that kind of relationship would be if you were the one giving in every single time. That’s exactly how unappealing that situation is for a man when it’s reversed.

13. Helen Feb 3rd 2010 at 07:50 pm 13

    Nothing at all against men… but shouldn’t a similar book be written for men with the title “Marry Her”?

    From where I sit and observe, it’s all my girlfriends who are waiting for their boyfriends to propose. It’s my girlfriends who have already decided that they’re happy with their men just as they are – no need to change anything, no need to “trade up.”  Instead, it’s the men who hem and haw about whether their girlfriends are really the “right one.”

    All that Gottlieb says is true for men, is true for women too. We’ll never be “perfect.” We’ll never be “just right.” But if we love you and make you basically happy and comfortable, and you love us in return… well, why not?

14. Anisa Feb 4th 2010 at 12:15 am 14

    @ Helen # 13
    Nothing at all against men ….. but they don’t buy books for themselves and they don’t read books.  Women do. Men are acting and re-acting on life.
    No words for them but actions.
    Your girlfriends they need to make very clear (by actions, but not ultimatums!) that it’s very important for them to marry….and otherwise they will move on.  Don’t be passive and act on your feelings and desires. The girlfriends are making their men happy and comfortable. Are their men making them happy and comfortable?
    That is the only way their boyfriends will ……”realise”…… If their boyfriends let them walk away…. than the love isn’t reciprocal….. very simple principle, very difficult to practice but very true. A loving man will not make his woman walk away from him.

    And:
    There are books written about this issue

15. Selena Feb 4th 2010 at 03:20 am 15

    Gotta wonder if the publisher’s had chosen a less offensive title they would sell more books. As it stands, many women who might benefit from the insights of the author (what ’settling’ is and what it isn’t) probably won’t bother with it.

    Good review Evan.

16. JerseyGirl Feb 4th 2010 at 07:08 am 16

    Never read the book  but I can see the common sense in it. However, how many women honestly are holding out for Mr.Perfect? Are women marrying later in life? Yes. But does that have to do with only women’s choices or the fact that men today are also less likely to settle down? I don’t think the amount of women today that aren’t married and childless is only due to the fact that they won’t settle.

    I think this book would fair better if it was advice on why people shouldn’t hold out for perfection. This is not a character trait prone to only women. Yes women buy self help books more but if the book had been geared to people in general, women still would have bought it.

    I also think the book purposely takes an offensive stance, after all that sells and makes people talk. So it’s pretty responable to see why it put some women on the defense. The title is meant to do just that and it’s accomplished it task. I think it’s also had alot of men in turn say something along the lines of “look, see, look what happens when you women wait to long. You get old and no one wants you. Oh well on you. ” A sort of backhanded glee it seems, especially when men proudly state how *they* can wait all they want. Interesting though how men want to wait but women to settle down as soon as they are legal.

    Overall though I don’t disagree with the basic message of the book. But just like the books before it, IE ”He’s Just Not That Into You” , and other, it seems like the industry feeds off of shaming women a bit and playing on their insecurities. And apparently enough women eat it up to make these things sell. Masochits much ladies.

17. Diana Feb 4th 2010 at 08:44 am 17

    Helen, I was thinking something similar. There are just as many men focused solely on being swept away in a flood of passion and nothing else. They do not see the women that would make great wives, partners and mothers, assuming that is what they are hoping to find. I understand why so much of this material is aimed at women, but sometimes I grow weary of it. How can a woman seriously consider the material in Lisa’s book and change her views and actions, if the men she meets are not doing the same?
     
    As for committment phoebic men, I recently read an interesting article that basically tied a man’s view of commitment, including marriage to the kind of environment he was raised in as a child. Of course, everything is objective.
     
    Women in long term relationships hoping and pining away for the day when their special guy will commit to marriage need to be ready and above all, strong, to take the road that will lead them to the truth. And if that truth involves heartbreak, then they will be free to find a man who will not only want to commit, but will commit.
     
    I have a very good friend who dated a man for several years. They were crazy about each other. She wanted to get married and he hemmed and hawed for what felt like forever. She finally told him that she was moving on with her life, with or without him. She moved to another state, started a fantastic new job, and left her dear love behind. What do you think happened? After a few months without her, and realizing that as painful as it was for her to leave him, she had the strength and the fortitude to live a life without him, he realized how much he didn’t want to lose her forever and they have now been married for a number of years in a beautiful house they remodeled together.
     
    Sometimes you have to risk everything in order to have it all.

18. Selena Feb 4th 2010 at 08:46 am 18

    I caught Ms. Gottlieb’s clip on “The Today Show” this morning and thought she got the point across rather well considering the brevity of the interview. Mostly how it was about being picky, concentrating on the superficial traits opposed to the ones desired for long lasting happy relationship. She said when interviewed, men would come up with 3 reasons they wouldn’t give a woman a second date – women would come up with 300 for a man!

    It was also amusing when she explained at one time she wouldn’t go out with a guy simply if he was named “Sheldon.”  If someone has such* high standards* they are finding they can never connect with anyone, this might be a worthwhile read.

19. Diana Feb 4th 2010 at 08:54 am 19

    I think a better word is subjective; not objective. I need my morning fuel.

20. Jennifer Feb 4th 2010 at 09:41 am 20

    Great review Evan.

    While I know some women like this exist, I have a hard time believing that there are hordes of women  out there that will pass up an otherwise fabulous man because he’s not fluent in French, went to Princeton instead of Yale or some other easily remedied/not crucial to day-to-day life issue. Maybe this is why some women are having such strong negative reactions without even reading the book- because they are not those kinds of women and struggle with the concept that women like that exist.

21. Evan Marc Katz Feb 4th 2010 at 09:49 am 21

    A solid point, Jennifer. Yet, in the media capitals where I’ve resided – New York and LA – there are a LOT.

    Check out this book excerpt and let me know what you think: http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/35224012/ns/today-today_books/

22. Jenny Feb 4th 2010 at 09:54 am 22

    @ Angela Crisp #5,
    the book isn’t for you – at your age, you probably won’t get to have a biological kid.  If you do want to have a biological kid in a wedlock, then you are exactly what the book is talking about – waiting too long to marry have a Mr. Perfect that you can’t have a biological kid in a wedlock any more.

23. Jennifer Feb 4th 2010 at 12:24 pm 23

    @Evan #21
    I think the book is definitely worth a read; when someone  has taken the time to gather the perspectives of several different people on a subject (dating coaches, matchmakers, marriage counselors, etc.), you’re bound to come away with some interesting insights.

24. Christi Johnson Feb 4th 2010 at 12:59 pm 24

    if the author chose the title for shock value/publicity, it seems like it’s working

25. Jenny Feb 4th 2010 at 01:52 pm 25

    It’s 2010- no woman should have to compromise their standards and settle for Mr. Right Now or Mr. Good Enough. With thousands of dating and social networking sites available, why not make the effort to find exactly what you want? There are dating sites for every type of woman out there …

    I think the real issue facing most women is that they’re not in touch with reality. Get out there and explore opportunities and then make a fair assessment of yourself. What league are you in? Can you move up the ranks with more practice? While some people want to settle down as soon as possible, those of us who believe in finding the best, and are willing to use the opportunities at hand, will probably have a better chance of finding the perfect mate!

26. Ruby Feb 4th 2010 at 02:55 pm 26

    I really hope that things have improved for Lori Gottlieb since her original article came out in The Atlantic almost 2 years ago. In that piece, she came across as a depressed, overworked single mom. In fact, in much of the article, she complains about her single-mom status. And because she now has her son to think about, and the men she meets as a 40-something single are SO bad, settling is out of the question.
    Well, at least she got a nice book deal out of it.
    http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200803/single-marry

27. Joe Feb 4th 2010 at 03:00 pm 27

    After reading the comments, I do agree that its usually the MEN who are unwilling to commit.  Now WOMEN have tried to act like MEN and never settle down.  Unfortunately, most women can’t wait past 35 to have kids.  Most WOMEN OUTSIDE of NYC have learned to adapt and settle down with Men willing to get married.  It seems that in cities such as NYC, Men and Women have so much choice, that there is NO URGENCY to get married.  Perhaps this is Survival of the Dumbest and the ambitious city women can’t find a husband to procreate.  Feminists can act like Bachelor Men, but is that a good thing?

28. Karl R Feb 4th 2010 at 04:58 pm 28

    Jenny said: (#25)
    “With thousands of dating and social networking sites available, why not make the effort to find exactly what you want?”
    
    You’ve overlooking one crucial element: Time.

    You can skim hundreds of social networking sites and find Mr. Right. You may even be able to find Mr. Right who is also interested in you. But when you’re skimming the social networking sites, all you’re really finding is someone who is “Perfect On Paper.”

    Up until a few months ago, millions of women would have said Tiger Woods was perfect (attractive, wealthy, successful, ambitious, clean reputation, family man).

    When you find someone who seems perfect on one of those social-networking sites, then you know that at least a thousand other women have also spotted him. So you will have stand out in a crowd of a thousand other women. And you’ll also have to wonder … if he’s as perfect as he seems, why hasn’t some other woman snagged him yet?

    It takes time to discover whether someone possesses the most important traits: ethics, integrity, respect, trust, loyalty, compassion. The people who lack these traits don’t always advertise it. So you have to spend some time in a relationship with him in order to determine whether he really has these qualities. This may take 3 months or 6 months or a year.

    If he turns out to be lacking, then you have to go back to your social-networks and search for the next “Perfect On Paper” man.

    “While some people want to settle down as soon as possible, those of us who believe in finding the best, and are willing to use the opportunities at hand, will probably have a better chance of finding the perfect mate!”

    If you’re planning on having kids, you probably want to get married while you’re reasonably young. That might give you 5 to 15 years of hunting for a spouse before you need to start making babies. Let’s assume you can adequately get to know two potential spouses per year; that means you have about 10 to 30 potential spouses you can thoroughly examine to see if they have the most important qualities.

    That’s a finite number. And if you ditch number 15 (because you think you can do better), you can’t necessarily go back and get him if you later decide that you were wrong.

    If you don’t want kids, then your options are much broader. You can spend as many decades as you want searching for the perfect mate, as long as you’re patient enough.

    You can set your own priorities. But I’d rather spend the rest of my life married to someone wonderful, rather than spend most of it searching for someone who is a little more wonderful.

29. A-L Feb 4th 2010 at 05:23 pm 29

    I have to say that in my experience it’s usually women who are pickier than men.  Though I will also say many (most?) men aren’t interested in settling down no matter how wonderful the woman is until he reaches a certain point in his life.  That point usually being defined by reaching some educational/career/financial milestone.  But once they get to that point, they’re not all that picky.
     
    One of my dearest friends has a list that is probably not all that different from the one that Lori Gottlieb had in the excerpt shown at Today’s website.  And I am worried that she may get to a point years down the road where she wishes she had done something different with her love life now.  But at the moment she is happy with where she is and has no desire to change, and you can’t make decisions for other people.
     
    As far as the title goes, I wish it was something different because I am interested in reading it but am rather afraid of the message that would send to my boyfriend with whom things are quite serious.  Don’t want to being going around sending mixed messages.

30. Selena Feb 4th 2010 at 06:50 pm 30

    Well A-L, you could always “disguise” the book by putting a different jacket on it.;)

31. A Reader Feb 4th 2010 at 08:23 pm 31

    For all those men who say that women need to settle if they want kids, but men have the option of waiting,  I think a lot of you will find out the hard way that you don’t.   If you are 45, 50 or older, unless you’re Mr. Gotbucks (if you’re really old) or Joe Studly (if you’re not THAT old yet) you will find that a lot of 20 and 30 something year old women will NOT be interested in you, and the ones who ARE will be 3s and 4s rather than 8s or 9s.   And 8s or 9s are especially not interested in being tied down with your rug rats and no money.  Seriously guys, get a reality check grip.

32. sayanta Feb 5th 2010 at 07:56 am 32

    A-L-

    Sorry to be nosy , but I’m curious. Did you meet your b-friend online? If so- what site was it on? Only if you want to say.

33. InaccessibleRail Feb 5th 2010 at 08:00 am 33

    A Reader, you’re right on. Whenever I was on OkCupid, I was constantly getting hit on by 45, 50 year old guys. I’m certainly willing to consider someone a little older, but NOT someone older than my dad! I’d personally rather be with a “5″ that’s my own age than a 50-year-old “10″, assuming all other things are equal. I’d imagine that I’m pretty typical in this respect.

34. Joe Feb 5th 2010 at 09:40 am 34

    What’s odd about the book is that it doesn’t make the case for DIVORCE – the Starter Marriage.  I haven’t read it, but is there anything wrong with getting married young-ish and having a child.  Sure there are some financial consequences, but more people are divorced young than the single career woman.  A woman or man that wants to get married WILL get married despite not being perfect.  We need to discuss single moms and dads who “settled” and have children, but are divorced because they are unhappy.  A woman can fulfill her biological needs, get alimony, and find a better boyfriend!  I think a lot of men don’t have the need to have kids like women, if they do they can freeze their seeds or eggs!

35. Jenny Feb 5th 2010 at 11:41 am 35

    Aw, come on Karl! Relax a bit…

    Nobody is claiming that dating sites are the panacea, but I am saying that they increase your odds by providing more opportunities to find someone great. I do agree with you that daters should do the “sniff test” no matter where they meet someone. Simply put, dating sites provide the introduction, but the approach is up to you.
    Oh, and speaking of time, Karl, perhaps you don’t have much time for online dating because you spend too much of it commenting on dating blogs instead of sending messages to hot girls. JK – got love for you Karl

36. Ruby Feb 5th 2010 at 12:04 pm 36

    Here are some interesting statistics from a study done by The Council on Contemporary Families:

    College-educated women are still getting married at very high rates. The reason for the decline in marriage among the 25-44 female demographic is that the poorest and least-educated women tend not to marry. Also, a higher age of marriage is actually associated with a lower probability of divorce. And college-educated white women (unlike college-educated black women) are slightly less likely to marry than their less-educated counterparts (with the exception of those with only a high-school degree). But when they do marry, they are less likely to divorce, so that by age 40, they are MORE likely to be married than other women, many of whom have already divorced. And a college-educated 40-year-old woman is twice as likely to get married in the next 10 years as is an unmarried 40-year-old with just a high school degree. College-educated women are more likely to report themselves as happy than any other group of women and much less likely to think that “financial security is the main benefit of marriage.”

    Maybe Gottlieb is preaching to the wrong audience?

37. Alan Feb 5th 2010 at 12:21 pm 37

    Mr Katz-

    You invited us to post on your site, so here I am.

    I’d point out that Gottlieb’s Atlantic article included the following excerpts:

    Oh, I know—I’m guessing there are single 30-year-old women reading this right now who will be writing letters to the editor to say that the women I know aren’t widely representative, that I’ve been co-opted by the cult of the feminist backlash, and basically, that I have no idea what I’m talking about. And all I can say is, if you say you’re not worried, either you’re in denial or you’re lying

    So any woman who’s not worried about being single is a liar or in denial?  Doesn’t sound very accepting of singles to me.

    But the only choices on the table, it sometimes seems, are settle or risk being alone forever.
    Now, though, I realize that if I don’t want to be alone for the rest of my life, I’m at the age where I’ll likely need to settle for someone who is settling for me
    
    The exaggerated, stereotypical phrases…”alone forever”, “alone the rest of my life”  So if you don’t marry, you become a hermit?

    By 40, if you get a cold shiver down your spine at the thought of embracing a certain guy, but you enjoy his company more than anyone else’s, is that settling or making an adult compromise?

    I’m sorry, but accepting someone who sends a “cold shiver down your spine” isn’t a case of accepting an “8″ instead of a “10″, that’s marrying at any cost.

    I know you advise people on love, so it might be hard to imagine that some people don’t seek marriage, or even relationships.  But we do exist, and we’re not liars, in denial, or hermits.

38. Evan Marc Katz Feb 5th 2010 at 12:52 pm 38

    Alan,

    Thanks for taking the time to respond. Your points are well taken. Here are my two cents:

    Gottlieb’s original Atlantic article was a five page inner monologue that got a disproportionate amount of attention and analysis. It certainly makes certain assumptions that are not true, and I’m sure Gottlieb herself would acknowledge it. The thing I’ve observed is that everyone is extrapolating from the article what the book, “Marry Him” is supposed to be about…and they’re wrong.

    The book is Gottlieb’s exploration as to why she – and women with similar desires of husband and biological children – have had such difficulties in achieving their goals. As my blog post said, the book does NOT say that you’re in denial for wanting to be single, it does NOT say you should marry at any cost, it does NOT say that single life is miserable.

    These are all criticisms that are being inferred by everyone offended by Gottlieb’s original article because they feel personally indicted. What I don’t understand is: if Gottlieb deeply, deeply wants to get married and advise other women who have similar desires to heed her advice… why are people in such an uproar? You can keep being happily single forever. Her book should not threaten your worldview one iota. Perhaps you can explain to me why a book about the realities of marriage – for women who WANT it – should bother someone who DOESN’T.

    Because from the intense bile being spewed at Gottlieb across the blogosphere, it feels a little bit like, “Thou dost protest too much”.

    I sincerely thank you for taking the time to air your views on my blog – and for acknowledging that I generally give advice to people who DO want to have a relationship. I don’t judge anyone who doesn’t agree with me. I would hope that folks like Gottlieb and myself wouldn’t be judged as well.

39. JOe Feb 5th 2010 at 01:01 pm 39

    So why isn’t gottlieb married if she has all the answers? time passed her by? is that the story here?

40. Evan Marc Katz Feb 5th 2010 at 01:37 pm 40

    Seriously, y’all. Read the book. Why was I able to give advice for years before I was married. Why can Dr. Phil write a diet book if he’s overweight. You don’t have to have a ring on your finger to have wisdom, that’s for sure. More importantly, the reason the book exist is because she DIDN’T have the answers. The book is her quest to learn why women like her struggle in love. It’s an exploration, not a manifesto.

41. JOe Feb 5th 2010 at 01:48 pm 41

    It’s a book for women who want to get married and have babies, right? Nothing in it for me, so why would I read it.  I don’t care about womens eggs, and that’s what it all comes down to, doesn’t it. I could barely make it thru her article ’cause of all the hysterical stuff. Tho nice to hear a woman telling other women to go out with guys they otherwise would reject. Makes our job easier.   

42. Jamie Feb 5th 2010 at 02:03 pm 42

    To the host of this blog: You might read Dr. DePaulo’s research then and eradicate the instances of slights against singles in your language. Your site is rife with them. On her site and in her book she gives many examples of the ways in which singles are put down and discriminated against–one of those ways is to assume that everyone wants/needs/is desperate to be married, or that being married is better than being single, or that there is something wrong with people who are single. Dr. DePaulo calls this phenomenon “matrimania.” In my view, despite your claims to being open to single people, you seem to fall into the matrimania trap quite often.

43. Alan Feb 5th 2010 at 02:48 pm 43

    I’m glad to hear that Gottlieb’s book avoids the pitfalls of her article. 

    As to all the anger, I can’t speak for everyone but I can tell you how it was received here in my section of the single crowd.

    When Gottlieb wrote her original article, DePaulo wrote a rebuttal on her site.  Gottlieb responded to the rebuttal with a post full of snark and stereotypes about singles.  So that might be one reason.

    Another might be advocacy.  Previously myself and other single people would have let stereotypes and slights slide by without comment.  Now that we’re part of a (quite small) movement we feel the urge to speak out. 

    And yet another might be that we’ve heard much worse comments, both online and in person. Which tends to make you strike back when you get the chance

44. sayanta Feb 5th 2010 at 03:15 pm 44

    so- I spent today reading a good part of this book at B&N. Not the whole thing, but enough to give me one of a series of wake-up calls I’ve had in the past couple of months. I totally saw myself in this book- and am grateful I’m (I think) learning my lesson at 31 instead of 41. 

    I’m wondering now if I really should have given a chance to some of those one-date wonders I passed up as ‘non-exciting’, ‘awkward,’ etc. in my 20s.  Because as I was reading her current dating horror stories (speed dating with 60 year olds), I was thinking, shit, that could be me in ten years.

    One thing she said in particular really stuck with me- that she, and other women of our generation, have been so concerned about ‘finding ourselves’ and perfecting our careers before finding love, that love just passed us by. For me, I was dead set that I first had to concentrate on knowing who I was as a person, etc. before I took my love life seriously. I didn’t factor in that the dating pool would be dwindling in only a few years while I found myself. Now- I’m not knocking my quest for self-knowledge, or anyone else’s, but I wonder- could I have been with someone and still have found myself?

    Being Indian, It was interesting reading about the Indian women’s perspective on marriage, particularly arranged marriages, and how one happily married woman said yes to a match because ‘there was nothing wrong with him.’ LOL But at the same time, I’ve also seen unhappy marriages in my community, that I wonder, could have been avoided if the parties had just dated other people to see what’s out there instead of marrying the people they first met. At the same time, dating around seems to have created a lot of problems in American dating culture as well…so I don’t know- it sounds all complicated, right?

45. Evan Marc Katz Feb 5th 2010 at 03:33 pm 45

    Thanks, Jamie. Since my clients are women who are willing to invest thousands of dollars to achieve their goals of marriage, it’s only logical that my advice caters to them. And I’m not exactly sure why someone who would rather stay single would go to a dating coach. The way I see it, folks like Gottlieb and I are reaching our target audience. If that’s not you, why worry? Because honestly, I have no problem with anyone who wants to stay single – my issue is with the vehement defensiveness.

46. Ruby Feb 5th 2010 at 03:45 pm 46

    I am certainly open to marriage if the right guy appears. Maybe my situation is different because I don’t want kids, and am past that age anyway. If I’m not married by age 40, does that mean my life is over, or that I’ll never marry? What I resent is a woman who CHOOSES to be a single mother, doesn’t realize how hard it’s going to be, regrets her own choices, and then uses fear-mongering to make single women think that they’re single because they’re too picky, and now it’s just too late.
     
    If you really want marriage and children by a certain age, then yes, you may have to compromise. That’s not pickiness, it’s making a realistic choice based on your own circumstance. Just because Gottlieb made the wrong choice for herself, doesn’t mean that other singles are necessarily doing the same thing. If you think you’re “too picky”, then sure, read the book. Any woman who wants to get married that badly can find a warm body who’ll step up.
     
    I realize that Gottlieb’s book is not the original Atlantic article, but they are both by the same writer, writing on the same subject. IMHO, the original article sent a very negative, bitter message. If the book eases up on the tone of the Atlantic article to provide some real insights, great.

47. Ruby Feb 5th 2010 at 03:49 pm 47

    That’s not pickiness, it’s making a realistic choice based on your own circumstance.
     
    Oops, meant to say “That’s making a realistic choice based on your own circumstance”.

48. Karl R Feb 5th 2010 at 04:02 pm 48

    JOe asked: (#41)
    “It’s a book for women who want to get married and have babies, right? Nothing in it for me, so why would I read it.”

    If you ever want to get married, some of the information might apply to you.

    And while you aren’t a picky woman, I’m betting that you encounter a fair number of them when you’re dating. It might be useful to have some insight into what they’re thinking.

    JOe said: (#41)
    “Tho nice to hear a woman telling other women to go out with guys they otherwise would reject. Makes our job easier.”
    
    That’s one of those pieces of information that can be equally useful for men.  Last year I realized that most of the women who didn’t want kids (and didn’t have them) were at least five years older than me. While I was already dating women who were in that range, I realized that I would benefit by focusing my efforts there.

    Jenny said: (#35)
    “Karl, perhaps you don’t have much time for online dating because you spend too much of it commenting on dating blogs instead of sending messages to hot girls. JK”
    
    If I start online dating again, my girlfriend is going to get pissed…

    And online dating accomplished far less for me than meeting women face-to-face. As Evan has pointed out previously, online dating has its own set of benefits and flaws.

    On a more serious note, this blog serves an extremely useful function in my relationship. It provides an easy way for me to bring up serious topics with my girlfriend: “You wouldn’t believe what someone posted on the blog today…”

49. Jamie Feb 5th 2010 at 05:07 pm 49

    To the host: Oh, I thought that this was a site for single people who were dating. I didn’t realize it was a site for women looking to get married–that you were a matchmaker of sorts. You might clarify that in your marketing.

    But before you criticize Dr. DePaulo’s work, you might read her book. No defensiveness there. Surprised that that’s what you take away.

50. Kenley Feb 5th 2010 at 05:23 pm 50

    I just started reading the book (well, actually, I’m listening to it), and I have to agree with Jennifer that I feel this book is addressing a very particular type of woman.  A woman who in her teens, 20’s and 30’s had no problem attracting men, getting dates, and getting boyfriends.   The fact that they have had an abundance of men at their disposal makes it very easy for them to feel that they can, in fact, hold out for something better.  While I believe Evan when he says that lots of women in New York and Los Angeles are like that, I think there are lots of other women who have not had that experience when men and dating….we’ve not had men at our beck and call from a young age.    We have not ever had the luxury of being so picky as to break up with a guy because he hasn’t seen Casablanca or because he likes to make up words.  Perhaps that’s why there is push back from these women because for them settling would have to mean accepting someone who is physically and sexually unappealing, unkind or abusive because their list of requirements is so short to begin with that they have no where else to go if they are told to settle.
    The other impression that I am getting early on is a very negative view of women single.  There is definitely the suggestion that single women in their late 30’s and 40’s who have not married are miserable and somehow flawed.   It’s just an early observation that may change as I read I mean listen to more.

51. Evan Marc Katz Feb 5th 2010 at 05:50 pm 51

    @Jamie – it is a site for single people who are dating. The vast majority of people who are looking for advice are hoping to establish a long-term relationship, if not necessarily a husband and kids. Thus, most readers and clients are very serious about not repeating previous mistakes and wanting to make better decisions down the road. I’d like to think I provide decent guidance, I really have no idea why someone who isn’t serious about finding a lasting love connection would invest much time or money in a guy like me. Entertainment, perhaps?

    @Kenley – You make a good point, one I hadn’t considered before. I don’t think it’s a flaw in the book, per se, but it is specific to a certain type of woman – one who has had many dating options and was so selective that she ended up alone. Thanks for calling that to my attention.

52. Jamie Feb 5th 2010 at 06:03 pm 52

    @51: So everyone who is on a date is necessarily scoping out the long-term potential of this stanger/near-stranger? Heavens. Sounds awful.

53. Evan Marc Katz Feb 5th 2010 at 06:31 pm 53

    Didn’t say that, Jamie. However, I think we can agree that most people don’t date simply for fun. They date because ultimately they’re hoping to find a lasting connection. That doesn’t mean bringing up marriage on Date 1. But I’m pretty sure that most women ARE scoping out long-term potential of a stranger on a date. Readers, correct me if I’m wrong. I certainly have been before…

54. sayanta Feb 5th 2010 at 06:46 pm 54

    Evan-

    Man, it’s a shame you’ve got to repeat yourself so often- but I guess that’s the negative of having new readers join everyday.

55. A-L Feb 5th 2010 at 07:00 pm 55

    RE: Kenley’s #50 & Evan’s #51
     
    I don’t think that think that this book is only for those people who have lots of dating experience.  I’d say it’s also excellent for the overachievers of the world.  Those who always strived to do well in school, were leaders in various organizations, are are pegged as outstanding in their field.  These people may not necessarily have dated a whole lot, possibly because they were focusing on other things.  But because they tend to be or have “the best,” they also expect that from their love life.  They have extraordinarily high expectations for their significant other and don’t necessarily think about how realistic those expectations are.  I think this book would be excellent reading for them, not just those who had tons of dating choices in the past but were too critical.

56. Jamie Feb 5th 2010 at 10:39 pm 56

    @54: Oh, I’m not joining this blog.

57. Selena Feb 6th 2010 at 02:26 am 57

    @ EMK #51
    “Entertainment perhaps?”

    Well yeah.   A couple years ago I got hooked on this blog because I enjoyed your writing and also that of the commenters. Now, I especially find your video clips entertaining!

    What keeps me reading every week is not the focus on finding a mate, but the different POV’s shared on relationship topics.  Fascinating sometimes.

58. Selena Feb 6th 2010 at 02:32 am 58

    @ Jamie

    Given the big header at the top of the blog:
    ” I Am A Personal Trainer For People Who Want To Fall In Love”
     - what did you think the blog was about?

59. Kenley Feb 6th 2010 at 07:36 am 59

    A-L,
    You might be right that women without a lot of dating options could  benefit from this book.  However, based on what I have read so far, the women Gottlieb interviews and upon whom she bases her conclusions/recommendations, are women who have dated a lot of men and it seems to me because of that fact, they  find it very easy to discard men for trivial reasons.   As a woman who has not had “men coming out of my ears” as one of the women she interviewed  stated, I personally find it very hard to relate to the stories of these women who would  break up with great  guys because the guy liked science fiction or because the guy didn’t send the RIGHT flowers for Valentine’s Day.

    One thing that I have also learned from reading the book which I think will surprise people is  that Gottlieb is NOT telling women to go without chemistry or attraction.  In fact, there are stories of women who let guys go with whom they did have chemistry and attraction because the guy did not meet ALL of the 1001 requirements they had for a guy.  It’s not even that they guys were treating them poorly — it was simply the guy  didn’t meet every single little item or their list.  That is really the point of her book.    She’s saying if you’ve got a list of 300 hundred things a man must have in order to be marriage material, you’ve got to shorten that list to only include the things that really matter for a successful long term relationship.

    I like and agree with her assertion that women should have lists that are more realistic and more predictive of a good long term relationship.  However, her insistence that every woman really does want a husband and children bothers me.  I don’t have any problem with women who want that.  In fact, I know that most women do.  However, Gottlieb argues that women who say they don’t want marriage and children are lying are delusional.  I don’t think that is fair or true.   She paints a picture that ALL women in their 40’s who aren’t married are unhappy and lonely and that marriage is the only remedy for them.    What about the scores of unhappy and lonely married people?  How can marriage be the ONLY solution.    Again, I want to clarify that I am not saying that marriage isn’t great and wonderful for some people.  What I am having a hard time accepting is Gottlieb’s  black and white, all or nothing position.    For her, it seems that marriage and children are the only road to happiness for women who are honest with themselves.   I have NEVER wanted to be married or to have children.   I am not lying to myself or delusional.   What I am doing is acknowledging that I know I don’t possess the qualities to be a good wife and mother so why should I be pressured into marriage and motherhood because that’s what other women do?   Does the fact that I don’t want to be married mean that I don’t like men?  No.  I do.  I have a boyfriend and I like him just fine.  I just don’t want to be married to him.    If Gottlieb didn’t make older single women appear to be pathetic, unhappy, unfulfilled creatures, I would like the book much better.    To be fair to Gottlieb, perhaps the difference between how she sees the world and how I do, is that when I was growing up and in my life right now, the single women who are over 40 that I know are not miserable, lonely, and unhappy, and when I go out with them, we rarely talk about men and marriage.

60. Evan Marc Katz Feb 6th 2010 at 10:44 am 60

    Thanks for your fair and unbiased review, Kenley. I think, in general, that we all have a visceral reaction when a message isn’t targeted specifically to us…and we tend to get angry. Men on my mailing list get VERY ANGRY if they’ve received an email for a woman… even though the advice applies to them just as well. It’s kind of fascinating.

    So, to your point, is it possible that Gottlieb is putting you down for not wanting to be married? I suppose. More likely, she’s writing the book thru HER eyes and for women who see the world thru similar eyes. She doesn’t think YOU’RE pathetic for choosing to stay single. She thinks SHE has problems though, because SHE wanted to be married, and SHE was so picky that she ended up single.

    It’s her journey, but if you can see yourself in it at all, I’d hope it has some value. Thanks for your thoughts.

61. sayanta Feb 6th 2010 at 11:29 am 61

    It’s interesting, how so many people take away different things from a book, or even a sentence. I guess that’s what makes society interesting.

    I definitely respect your views, Kenley- you’ve made valid points. But- honestly…I didn’t see how she painted women who say they don’t want a family as delusional, etc. But I didn’t read every line of the book, so maybe I missed something?

62. A Reader Feb 6th 2010 at 03:17 pm 62

    I am single.  I want a relationship. But am I willing to compromise or “settle?”  No.  And if I wind up alone, so be it.  I won’t be happy, but I won’t blame myself.  I won’t blame anybody.  It will just be the way things are and I will accept it.  Better that than settle with someone who won’t make me happy either.  If I’m going to be unhappy, I would rather be unhappy alone than unhappy with some slob who leaves his dirty socks all over the house.  Just sayin’.

63. Evan Marc Katz Feb 6th 2010 at 03:54 pm 63

    True. And if you think “compromise” and “settle” mean the exact same thing, you’d be right. Gottlieb and I, however, believe that you can make compromises that don’t equal settling that will lead to a greater happiness. I repeat: NO ONE is telling you to be with someone who does not make you happy, so please stop leaping to that false conclusion about the book. Read it.

64. StyleSista Feb 6th 2010 at 04:44 pm 64

    It’s quite interesting reading through these comments… I have read a couple of articles previewing “Marry Him,” and I do agree with Kelsey that the author (Gottlieb) does seem to think that every woman wants to be married and if she doesn’t, she’s fooling herself. I don’t agree with that premise, I believe the reason a lot of marriages don’t work is because women who really don’t want to be married convince themselves they do want to be married, i.e, they cave to societal expectations. Same goes for motherhood. Women & married couples who say, “I/we don’t want kids,” are looked upon as pariahs. But some women are happy being single and being the auntie, but don’t want marriage/motherhood, and I think those women should be celebrated for being true to themselves instead of criticized for their single state.
    I also think that society looks more kindly on being divorced than on being never married. This is, I believe, symptomatic of the ‘matrimania’ that one poster referred to.
    Me, myself, I would love to be married. However, being single and in my mid-30s, I deal with a lot of people commenting, ‘I can’t believe you’re still single,’ that sort of thing, with the implication that there must be something wrong w/me if I haven’t snagged a husband by now. Actually, there is something “wrong” with me – - a chronic medical condition that I have dealt with since my teens. (But on looking on me you wouldn’t know, it’s not like I’m, say, on an oxygen tank or use a crutch or cane, so sometimes people say insensitive things not knowing what is going on on the inside).  I have gotten into relationships, disclosed my condition at the appropriate time (not on a first date!), had the guy say, “it doesn’t change how I feel, I think you’re wonderful,” but after I’ve canceled a few dates ’cause I’m feeling extra fatigued, or he wants sex but I can’t because I’m having a very painful day, I suddenly find myself single again. It’s discouraging because I don’t define myself by my condition. It’s the hand I was dealt and I’m doing pretty darn well with the hand I was dealt. I have my work, my hobbies (when my energy permits), and family & friends who love & appreciate me for the fabulous gal I am
    So in my situation I just want a guy who doesn’t define me by it either!
    I just don’t know what to make of these women who drop a guy ’cause he didn’t go to the “right” college or because he’s 5′11″ and their guy must be 6′ feet or taller no exceptions…I myself am pretty open-minded when it comes to dating. I’m a vegetarian but all my exes are carnivores, LOL! I’m college-educated but have dated guys that never set foot on a college campus. I’m more concerned about finding a man of good character than the superficial stuff that so many women end potentially great relationships over. What’s a gal in my situation to do?

65. anette Feb 6th 2010 at 04:55 pm 65

    I will be interested in reading this book definately.

    What does confuse me a little however, is this view that once you hit the 40’s you really will remain single. I’m only 36 so maybe it’s still a bit different but it seems the 35+ crowd are the ones being targetted as being past their used by date. This view that as you get older, you are less attractive visually may be true, but it also comes across as extremely shallow as though women themeslves believe they are truly not worthy of love if they no longer look like a hot momma!! The visual side of things is just one aspect and men tell us time and time again, that they do and can look beyond this quite easily.

    I see men and women, who are older finding partners all the time. I see divorcees finding love again. I see single parents finding love. I see women in the mid thirties finding love with younger men. I see older(35+), chubby , unattractive women finding partners that they love who are actually cute men who are head over heals for their older ladies.

    This is happening all the time, but if you read different blogs and websites you might be almost terrified that if you are single after 35 there is never any hope or chance for you.

    So what gives? Why are some women still finding love and happiness when they ARE single mothers, they ARE older and others are saying it’s all over for them?

    Is there something in these womens attitudes(like the authors), that stops them even now, from finding a nice partner?

66. sayanta Feb 6th 2010 at 06:00 pm 66

    Annette-

    I think part of it is, fear sells. If you write a book saying, everything’s just dandy, it won’t sell. If you write, “YOU”RE GOING TO DIE TOMORROW, BUT IF YOU READ THIS BOOK AND FOLLOW MY ADVICE, MAYBE YOU’LL BE SAVED” which one are people going to pick?

    Not knockin’ this book at all- it was a much needed read for me. But I do think that people do try to paint bleaker pictures for publicity’s sake. Reason? Same reason people crane their necks to look at a horrible car accident instead of just driving by looking straight ahead.

67. Jamie Feb 6th 2010 at 06:17 pm 67

    @58: Single people who don’t want to be married fall in love, too!

68. Jamie Feb 6th 2010 at 06:19 pm 68

    @58: But meant to add–the other day EMK posted on a blog that I do read quite often (Psychology Today, Bella DePaulo’s blog), and he invited us/her to post on this blog. But it’s not for me. All the best to you!!!

69. A Reader Feb 6th 2010 at 06:29 pm 69

    To Evan Marc Katz:  Read the book? Yeah, OK.  Maybe.  When it comes out in the library and I can read it for free.  Pay MONEY for it? Not this chica, sorry.

70. Selena Feb 6th 2010 at 07:31 pm 70

    Re: #65
    Interesting points Anette.  I think you’re onto something here about attitudes stopping some from finding a good partner – at any age. If one believes that it is much harder to find love after 40 then they very well may be sending out “vibes” that make it a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    And with the divorce rate standing at 50%, a good many people who married when they were under 40 will find themselves single again when they are over 40. So marrying during one’s “peak of attractiveness” (whatever one thinks that might be) is not a guarantee against being single later in life either. 

71. Selena Feb 6th 2010 at 07:50 pm 71

    @Jamie #67, 68

    Getting married is not a particular goal of mine either, but I still enjoy reading this blog for the exchange of perspectives in the comment section. Can get quite lively lol!

    I’ll check out Bella DePaulo’s blog – sounds like something I will like as well. Thanks for mentioning it.

72. Evan Marc Katz Feb 6th 2010 at 09:00 pm 72

    I don’t know Bella DePaulo or her research, but her highly emotional attack on Lori Gottlieb suggests that she has a fixed position on being single, and does everything in her power to find evidence to defend her position…as opposed to taking into consideration another’s point of view. I really do my best to be objective and report what is most EFFECTIVE for singles, not what I WANT to be most effective.

73. Jamie Feb 6th 2010 at 10:58 pm 73

    @72: Oh, definitely get her book, Singled Out, and read it, since you are unfamiliar with her work. She earned her PhD at Harvard, teaches at UCSB (good creds) and has been researching/publishing extensively on deception (why people lie) and on singles and their place in society. In general she calls out instances of prejudice and (wrongly) negative stereotypes about singles that appear in the media. These negative stereotypes encourage the prejudice to continue unquestioned. (Personally, I believe that the crazy cultural pressure here in the U.S. to marry leads to a lot of bad marriages, but I digress.) 

    Dr. DePaulo’s research is quite solid, as you will find if you read it. She does not offer advice or tell anyone what to do with their lives, so effectiveness (helping people to reach a goal) is not at issue. Her writing does give make us pause, however, and think about how we view singles (pathetic? losers? bad at relationships? stupid? lonely? unattractive? damages? hopeless? worthless?). And perhaps, if we are single ourselves and have endured such judgments from those around us (or have internalized those messages and judge ourselves negatively), Dr. DePaulo’s message is quite positive: There is nothing wrong with you!  Seems like a good starting point for any kind of relationship, if you ask me.

    If your readers can view their singlehood in a positive light, as a vital and affirming part of a long life of many stages, with many kinds of relationships, I suspect that the encoupled parts of their lives will be healthier and happier. (Just my POV–no studies to back this up! ) 

    I would say that the Gottlieb article in The Atlantic definitely feeds the negative stereotypes about singles; though in another article (WaPo), Gottlieb has really toned it down. I find her a bit harsh, myself, and she doesn’t speak for me. No problem if others find her words meaningful.  

74. anette Feb 6th 2010 at 11:13 pm 74

    I can see Evan, that this is a great quality you have and very much needed amongst people to day.

    IE, you don’t tell them what they want to hear, you tell them the truth as much as you are capable of knowing it.

    I had a friend, who is a relationship councellor(and male) and boy did I resist his “honest” telling of things. But, he hung in there with me and not reacting too all my, MEN are such PIG statments when he told me something I didn’t want to hear, and I finally started to understand things a lot better, and..ironically started liking men a lot more than I did previously!!!

    I wish that we could learn a lot of these things when we are younger, but better late than ever.

    Thanks for your candid words

75. Alan Feb 7th 2010 at 07:51 am 75

    The reason, Mr. Katz, that Bella DePaulo has such a fixed position is that she’s become an advocate and activist on behalf of singles.  Perhaps not what she intended to do originally, but that’s become her role.  And as such, her emphasis is on defending single people from discrimination and stereotypes. 

    It’s not entirely clear to me what alternate points of view you’re asking her to take into consideration. 

    Are you asking her to compromise with those people who put down singles, who engage in discrimination?  Surely that’s not reasonable.

    Are you asking her to consider those singles who want to be married?  That’s not the audience she’s writing for, any more than Lori Gottlieb is writing for people happily single. 

76. A-L Feb 7th 2010 at 07:54 am 76

    RE: Kenley’s #59
     
    I understand what you’re saying.  I think that the affliction that Gottlieb describes (as relayed via the posters here) is more common among those with a prolific dating life.  But I just can’t emphasize enough that there are women who do not have men banging down their door who still act this way.  He’s  too short (at 5′9″ or even 5′10″).  He doesn’t like ethnic food.  His background is too rural.  He knows my boss.  His dad’s in the same profession that I’m in.  He has a little gut.  He’s too slender.  I don’t think he’d like opera.  He doesn’t mention that he likes the theater.  He mentions sports too much.  And this is all coming from a woman who has probably only gone out with about 5 people in her entire life (including one 1st date in that number).  I think that this book would be extremely helpful for people like this, because I doubt my friend is the only person like this in the world.  Basically, I don’t think the pickiness gene is limited to those in high demand.
     
    RE: Sayanta’s #32
     
    Sorry for the delay in responding (I somehow overlooked your question) but I did meet my boyfriend online…at match.com.

77. StyleSista Feb 7th 2010 at 08:19 am 77

    Good points from all…
    I have read that such extreme pickiness as Gottlieb is documenting can be a sign of commitmentphobia. If you subconsciously fear commitment/intimacy, you’ll create these unrealistic standards for a potential partner and, voila! No relationship.
     

78. Kenley Feb 7th 2010 at 09:10 am 78

    I almost through the on-line dating section of the book, and so far, it’s the best.  I’m not just sucking up, Evan, but your advice in the book is great.   Your section is not only the most fun, but I think it is also the most applicable to everyone who is dating — for whatever purpose.    In this section, she also talks to other experts and their research and/or advice is fascinating and useful as well.
    What I am  beginning to see is that the advice from the experts Gottlieb consults is much more helpful than the conclusions Gottlieb herself makes.   One such conclusion that she made just made me wonder is she really stating what she believes or is she simply taking poetic license to make a point.   When she introduces you, she describes your wife (fiance at the time) as cute, but not gorgeous, not especially successful, and 39 and looks it.    In short, Gottlieb says, she’s just ordinary.  Ok.  Evan, I have to disagree with her description.   I have seen pictures of your wife and she is lovely — not just cute.   I read in your wedding announcement that your wife is a vice president.    What does she have to be to be really successful in Gottlieb’s opinion, the CEO?  Finally, you sent  a picture of you and your wife to the posters on this site.  From what I could see, you wife did not have on any makeup and she didn’t look any where near 40. Was Gottlieb just trying to make your wife seem like less of an “objective” catch to illustrate how much  you compromised?   If so, I think she went way overboard.   Or perhaps it’s that Gottlieb is just much more critical than I am.   There are other examples  in the book where I just really disagree with Gottlieb and so it makes it difficult for me not to dismiss a lot of her opinions or insights.
    All in all, however, I am enjoying the book, and learning things about myself, men, and relationships.   I think lots of other women — young and old — will too.    For me,  the real value of the book is coming from the experts and not the author herself as I just think we are operating on two different planets.    At the end of the day though, I do think the information in this book can help women find great partners, and for that Gottlieb deserves a great big thank you.

79. sayanta Feb 7th 2010 at 09:16 am 79

    I’ve got check out this DePaulo person- I’m intrigued. All this stuff I’ve learned from going to this blog!

80. sayanta Feb 7th 2010 at 09:21 am 80

    Here’s a link to DePaulo’s opinion-

    http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/living-single/201002/should-you-marry-rude-stinky-creepy-person-you-re-not-perfect-either

    Yeah, I’m with EMK here- this is a highly emotional attack. And even though DePaulo’s the psych prof, she’s the one coming off as immature and reactionary. Lori Gottlieb does not.

    I’m thinking Gottlieb hit a nerve.

81. Joe Feb 7th 2010 at 09:53 am 81

    I think there are many different types of women that have different views of this book or settling: (1) Never-married, childless single women in 30-40, are content being single and fabulous, without the burden of child or marriage; (2) Divorced women who are childless, and do Not want to get married again; (3) Divorced women who are single moms, but have a father to co-parent; and (4) Single women who are single moms.
    I think Lori falls as (4) Single woman who is a single mom and desperately wants a husband to co-parent.  If she did not have a child, I highly doubt she would be writing this book.  I think if she were single, she would be eternally looking for an older perfect George Clooney to marry.  Or perhaps, she needs a young boy toy to control.
    I think there are a lot of single never-married and divorced women who don’t need to get married and are happy being independent and strong.  Lori is just like a Divorced single mom, only she is not scarred by the experience of divorce, so she has never had to live with a husband or a co-parent.  But her situation is similar to other Single moms, who desperately want a new father for her children.
    For the women who really want to get married, they may want to get off birth control and really wait until marriage to find the one true husband.  That will really make a woman less picky!

82. Evan Marc Katz Feb 7th 2010 at 11:19 am 82

    @sayanta: You think that DePaulo post is reactionary? Try this one, to which Gottlieb wrote a snarky response herself: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bella-depaulo/marry-him-atlantic-ma_b_87045.html

    @Alan: There’s nothing wrong with divergent opinions, Alan. The difference between DePaulo and Gottlieb, is that DePaulo is – in my mind – falsely crying foul about Gottlieb’s material, as if it’s an ATTACK on single people. It’s not. It’s a call to action for single people with marriage and biological kids on their brains to make some better decisions. That’s all. DePaulo’s attacks on Gottlieb remind me of O’Reilly’s “War On Christmas” attacks. Except O’Reilly has a tiny point when someone takes down a Christmas tree in a town square. DePaulo completely misreads Gottlieb’s take on things and conflates it into something else entirely, pretty much just to bang her drum and keep her face in the news.

    Once again, if Gottlieb were attacking single women who chose to be single, DePaulo would have a case. Surely, there is some societal judgment for 40+ single women. But not from Gottlieb, who, if it hasn’t escaped anyone, is a 40+ single woman! Gottlieb claims to speak for herself when she says that she’s lonely, and wishes to spend a life with a man. Surely, there are other women who agree. If it’s not you, if it’s not Bella DePaulo, why raise such a ruckus?

    To paraphrase, Gottlieb says “We can agree to disagree. You don’t want a man and kids? Great. Enjoy your life. But I do. Here’s how women like ME could better achieve these goals.” Somehow, this has been turned into an attack on single women and feminists. It’s not. Put down your swords. You’re the only ones fighting.

    @Kenley: Thank you for your kind words. As far as the depiction of my wife, I can’t claim to have been thrilled by it, however, I would be the first to admit that there are plenty of women in Los Angeles who are younger, more highly educated, and more highly paid than my wife. If I were holding out for 10’s in all of those areas, then yes, I would have fallen short. But I took my own advice – made a few compromises (as did she), and found a relationship that’s a 10. And that’s probably the best advice I ever got about choosing a partner: don’t judge the person, judge the RELATIONSHIP.

    http://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/evaluate-your-relationship-not-your-partner/

    People can have flaws, but we want our relationships to be solid. Instead, we go for ever-more-impressive PEOPLE who are NOT good in a relationship…and wonder why it never works.

83. Melissa Feb 7th 2010 at 12:55 pm 83

    Although I haven’t read this book yet, I have to chime in hear that many people do NOT realize how they are “getting in their own way” of finding love, happiness and marriage.
    I am one of those girls whose realized a lot later in life (just turned 40) and through the guidance of Evan that I’ve been chasing hotness and passion my entire adult life and  I’m now a “dating virgin” because I’ve never dated “smart” before.
    A dating coach like Evan or a book such as this can open your eyes to blind spots that you can’t see.  Of course, I recommend Evan’s services over a book anyday because of how much he’s changed my life… but nonetheless, find out what YOU’RE personal blind spot is.
    When I first enlisted Evan’s help… all I wanted was for him to find a way for “hot guy of the month” to fall in love with me.  At the time I was MAD at him, for NOT giving me what I wanted, but instead… showing me that I need to stop going after the chemistry high and make better choices, something I had been doing all my life.
    That was MY blind spot.  It still IS.  He’s helped tremendously, but after my entire adult life of chasing the passionate kiss around the corner, its still a hard “habit” to break, but I am breaking it and I will find a long term relationship in 2010. No doubt in my mind; because I enlisted the help of someone (Evan) who showed me something that I couldn’t see.
    So I could write a book with a different “slant”…. “Break the Hot Guy Habit”.   Maybe your not over-picky, maybe you suffer from the ailment I did for so long….  letting my pheramones be my guide to EVERYTHING.   Either way…  the advice of “stop holding out for someone who meets all of your criteria” is pretty solid.  Hot guys and passion have led me nowhere good.    I still need SOME, but its no longer my driving force.

84. Kristen Feb 7th 2010 at 02:22 pm 84

    I don’t care much about the book’s subject matter (not enough to buy a copy, anyway), but I would like to know why there are so many books helping women “snag” a man/husband, but so few helping men snag women/a wife. Certainly they can use an equal amount of advice answering burning questions such as, “Why can’t I find a woman who wants to do my laundry?” and “I’m a professional, suit-wearing man with big muscles. Why don’t women love me?”

85. sayanta Feb 7th 2010 at 03:34 pm 85

    A-L-

    #76- um–wait, are we friends? Coz that sounds like me you’re talking about there. LOL j/k.

    Seriously though- I gotta get myself on Match. I’m slowly beginning to lose the ‘ew’ factor for online dating when I’m seeing how so many people are meeting their SOs off it.

86. Karl R Feb 7th 2010 at 03:48 pm 86

    StyleSiesta, (#64)
    Because of your situation, you may need to be more proactive in dating than most women.

    Having been in a similar situation as the men you date, if a woman is frequently pushing me away, it still feels like rejection (even though I intellectually realize that’s not her intent. In order to counteract that, you’ll need to demonstrate that you are interested.

    For example, if you have to cancel a date because you feel bad, make a point of asking him out when you feel better. If you have to decline sex because you’re in pain, make a point of initiating sex when you feel good.

    That made a world of difference between the two relationships I’ve had with women who had health issues.

87. Evan Marc Katz Feb 7th 2010 at 07:36 pm 87

    @Kristen: Because they don’t read them. Check out the self-help section of a Borders. You’ll see. The only self-help you’ll see guys reading are business books, or maybe “The Game” to learn how to get laid.

    We can debate whether the market reflects the demand for men or dictates the demand for men, but one thing is clear: if you’re writing a dating book, don’t write one for men. That is, if you want your book to be read.

88. Adryenn Ashley Feb 7th 2010 at 09:28 pm 88

    @Kristen – I hear you, and I tried to write a book for men about the perils of family court. But getting them to organize for their own good, or buy a $14 book to save their sanity just didn’t fly. In the end, I flipped the subject matter around, made the same points just from the perspective of their future second wife, and viola, “Every Single Girl’s Guide to Her Future Husband’s Last Divorce” was born.  And keeping with the “brides don’t read” edict, you can breeze through it in one 3 hour hair dressing session.  But trying to address issues that were critical to men, like the fact that they have no reproductive rights in this country, fell flat. THAT is why all the books focus on the women.  I know it’s supposed to be a secret, but we really do rule the world.

89. JerseyGirl Feb 8th 2010 at 07:54 am 89

    Men are less apt to admit they need help or have a problem. While they might wonder about their dating abilities and such, they won’t actually seek the help to improve themselves. more often then not. They will say things like “she was just a *insert four letter word here*  if a girl isn’t interested, move on to the next, and wonder why the next girl didn’t return his calls.

    It’s really a pittfall for men because they are there own worst enemies stopping any growth they could have here. Look how far women have come in past decades and men have remained the same place they always were with minor differences to expectations held for them.  It’s quite interesting. I also suspect it’s a reason why we hear the stats on why women are exceling in higher education and men are not. I personally would love to see men more motivated to grow not just mentally, but emotionally. But we might still be a long way off before men admit they need certain kinds of help.

    I disgress. I will say it again, there is a current media culture for women with relationships/dating/self help books that seem to play on sparking a masochist streek in women. And women eat it up as if they love the abusive “tough-love” stance these attention grabbing books need to sell.  This book is nothing new. These are the same things that have been being said since the send off of the bra burning 60s.  

    Women are not willing to sacrfice themselves for “love” anymore. Not to the degree that our mothers did just to have a home, family and stability. Do we want love? Of course. The issue is not that we won’t settle but that we do not throw ourselves in the volcano for it anymore when previous generations of women did. Women sacrficed themselves to their families. And today’s woman asks for more.  While this gives women more power, it also gives us less of those idealistic visions of happy families that people think equal love. And maybe that’s what people are really missing. The idea of love and family and the showmenship and not the true love that we all really want.  That, and the fact that men today DO have to work harder because women today have more options.

    ———————————————————————————-

    was about being picky, concentrating on the superficial traits opposed to the ones desired for long lasting happy relationship. She said when interviewed, men would come up with 3 reasons they wouldn’t give a woman a second date – women would come up with 300 for a man!
    ———————————————————————————-
    What does it matter though? 3 reasons or 300, a man isn’t going to change his mind to date a woman if he finds 3 things he doesn’t like just as a woman wouldn’t change her mind for a man if he had 300. While men are not as complicated in their reasoning, it doesn’t mean that they are going to day a girl anymore then a woman would date a guy.

90. sayanta Feb 8th 2010 at 08:31 am 90

    I was thinking- I know a woman of color who’s built somewhat of a name for herself in the activist community because of her vocalization of issues affecting poor people, particularly of color. Now- I’m not best friends with her, but I know her relatively well, well enough to know about her love life. This woman was asked out by an Ivy-League educated white dude, a person who represented the system she railed against. Reluctantly, she went out with him, ’cause, I guess it had been- let’s say, a while- since she’d been out with a guy. After a few dates, she liked his personality, how he treated her, but could NOT get past the Ivy-education and the vanilla part. So she stopped going out with him.

    I thought- well, maybe they just didn’t click as much as they should. But on further knowledge, I was able to gather that she felt that dating such a guy would tarnish her ‘image.’ Primarily, she sees herself as an activist for poor people of color- that’s the only role that’s important to her- and she doesn’t want to do anything that would make her seem like a possible hypocrite- to others, possibly even to herself.

    Why do I bring this up? I was thinking about Bella de Paulo. If she’s built a reputation on ’single-ness’- basically advocating single-hood forever, and gotten far in her career due to her singles research, she might think that agreeing with Gottlieb or applying the principles to her own life may jeopardize her career and the professional life she’s worked hard to maintain. She sees herself primarily as- like someone said above- ‘a voice for the singles.’ So- like my friend, she might think it hypocritical to ’settle,’ and like my friend, she might also be unwilling to ‘tarnish her image.’ I could be totally off the mark, but thought I would put it out there.

    PS- Bella keeps saying that Lori wants us women to settle for regressive, depressive terrorists. Um- okay, that’s like me saying, “So-and-so wants me to become a vegan because she said I should cut the Big Macs out of my life.” Nowhere in the book do I even remember the word “terrorist.”

91. Isabelle Archer Feb 8th 2010 at 08:56 am 91

    I think that, under the surface — perhaps not even recognized by Gottleib — this book might have to do with the phenomenon of female commitmentphobia, a malady from which I personally suffer.  We usually tag men with this syndrome, but in truth a lot of the seemingly picky women out there are really just using their demands and their “needs” as a way to avoid making a commitment.  Much easier to discard a series of dates for superficial reasons than it is to actually do the hard & sometimes scary work of connecting with someone and making the necessary compromises. 

    The advice from Gottleib that we commitmentphobes should just “settle” doesn’t really help — the question is *how* to settle?  I can’t wrap my head around it. 

    In a strange way, the best dating advice for my situation has been Ian Kerner’s book “You’re Just Not that Into Him.”  That’s because commitmentphobia is actually dual-edged:  you really want a relationship, but then you go screaming in the opposite direction when things start to look serious.  As a result of this, you can end up embroiled in unhealthy relationships with the wrong people (the ones “you’re not really into”), because this allows you to be in a relationship of some kind (which you really do want), but sidesteps the whole question of committment, because the relationship is so obviously f-ed up.   

92. Alan Feb 8th 2010 at 09:28 am 92

    Sayanta I don’t think Dr. DePaulo is arguing for people to be single forever.  Her basic position is that singles can be as happy and healthy and successful as people who are coupled, whether they are looking for a relationship or not. 

93. Evan Marc Katz Feb 8th 2010 at 09:44 am 93

    I agree with you, Alan. I’m sure everyone on this site would as well. So why is it that if someone offers constructive criticism to a single woman on DePaulo’s site, it becomes a criticism of all single women? I mean, you seem like a reasonable man. I’d like to think I am as well. But to watch my words twisted on that Singles blog was painful.

    So tell your friend, Jamie that I’m staying away, and know that I truly appreciate your attempts to reach out. Let the Singles community know that this blog is their greatest advocate IF they want to have a healthy, long-term romantic relationship. If they don’t, well, I’m sure Ms. DePaulo provides useful tips for staying single.

    Take care,

    Evan

94. Diana Feb 8th 2010 at 10:21 am 94

    Everyone’s comments are very interesting. Women have been and are continuing to experience a tremendous growth period of  self-empowerment which is incredible, as long as we don’t get in our own way.
    IMHO, men are not hard wired to seek out the opportunities for personal growth as women do. Not all, mind you. There are always exceptions. Men really do live in the NOW.
    I know an Alpha male who went to therapy for two years, after suffering through the traumatic breakup of a LTR of several years. He recommended a book to me when my own situation started. He recognized early on that while the woman involved played her part, so did he, and he wanted to better understand himself and to grow from the experience. He also knew that he would be able to be stronger throughout the ordeal, if he sought the support that he felt he needed.
    I was astounded when he told me this, and I applaud his efforts and the courage that it took. One thing I have noticed is that most people are very quick to point the finger at their exes, but few take the painful journey to travel inward and to truly come away from the experience a better and a more whole person.

95. Jamie Feb 8th 2010 at 10:49 am 95

    @92: Correct–she is not advocating for any major life choice one way or the other, and she does not offer unsolicited (or any other type) of relationship advice. You will never read anything where she advises people to marry, divorce, or stay single. What you will read her saying is that marriage will not make you happier or healthier; that it will only make you wealthier because of prejudice in the workplace and in the tax code, both of which favor marrieds; that it is not the only/best way to raise children; that it will not ensure that you do not die alone.

    You might also read her contending that the images of marriage as presented in the media are misleading and do not reflect the reality of marriage in the U.S. Because this is her area of research (several decades’ worth), she makes her case using sociological studies, her own and others’.   She also points out faulty methodology/conclusions in some highly visible studies. Like this one: The most oft-cited study on the benefits of marriage only uses data on always-marrieds and excludes data on those who married and then divorced. As she points out, this is like a drug company in the course of its research including only people the drug worked for and excluding those dropped out because of the negative side effects.

    In short, she is raising awareness about how both marriage and singlehood are stereotyped in our society–one positively and the other negatively. But don’t go to her site or her books looking for (or handing out) dating advice. Not appropriate.

96. Karl R Feb 8th 2010 at 11:29 am 96

    JerseyGirl said: (#89)
    “What does it matter though? 3 reasons or 300, a man isn’t going to change his mind to date a woman if he finds 3 things he doesn’t like just as a woman wouldn’t change her mind for a man if he had 300.”

    There’s a huge difference. I can’t come up with 300 things that are wrong, because I’m not looking at that many details. My list of “must have” criteria is in the single digits.

    If a woman meets my top 10 criteria but fails the next 3, I see her as a candidate for a long-term relationship. If a man met your top ten criteria, but failed the next 3, would you even go on a second date with him?

    That’s where pickiness impacts dating.

97. sayanta Feb 8th 2010 at 12:19 pm 97

    just something else I’ve been thinking about: I’ve found blogs and dating books very helpful, and so I’m not knocking them at all. At the same time, they have a tendency to use generalizations like “men don’t talk about their feelings”- and “men don’t like self-help” etc. Granted, this is most likely the experience of most people’s and the authors.

    For someone like me, who has only a bit of experience with men, I tend to pay a lot of attention to these books, articles, etc. The problem is- none of these ever say anything, well, that good about men. So- I think, personally, I go into dates with the idea that I have to always watch what I say, keep myself under ‘control’ at all times, because I don’t want the guy to think I’m too emotional, that I love talking about feelings (which I do), etc.

    At the same time, just for talking’s sake, say I act like that, avoid talking about anything emotional, or showing emotion, and the guy across from me happens to be the one guy who is into all that ‘touchy-feely stuff.’ But because I’ve been getting the message, ‘men don’t like that’- he’s probably come off thinking ’she’s a cold bitch’ when I’m not.

    I guess what I’m trying to say in a roundabout way- is even though all this stuff is helpful, it can also put so much stuff in your head that you don’t even know the right way to behave around the opposite sex anymore.

98. Diana Feb 8th 2010 at 12:51 pm 98

    Sayanta #97, that is a valid point. There’s an expression, “to take everything with a grain of salt.” I filter through loads of information and sometimes it does feel a bit overwhelming. At the end of my day, I only apply and absorb what feels right to me. While some of the broader statements are true and can be eye-openers [LOL], I have to apply what fits for me as a unique individual, and then try to strike a balance in dating between what I have learned and again, what feels right. And since we can’t read another person’s mind (well, most of the time ), you are always going to be taking risks when getting to know someone new.
     
    I take comfort in believing that if it was meant to be, it will be. And that the best I can ever do is to be myself.

99. Sarah Feb 8th 2010 at 12:58 pm 99

    @97: Hysterical!! So true!!! You read how awful men are in general: not into feelings, looking at other women, wanting to cheat, actually cheating, lying about looking at other women and about cheating, more likely to leave if you get terminally ill, not doing their share of the housework/childrearing, entitled, and now, not as well educated as women are. Sounds like you’re “settling” just going out with a “regular” guy! And to have a relationship with him you have to pretend that none of this bothers you. So you end up tiptoeing around and doing everything right and catching the so-called prize. When do you get to be yourself?

    And where are all the books about how great, loving, and kind men are and why we need them? Where are those books? I mean, I can take out my own trash. The guys described above can go with it, in my view.

100. A-L Feb 8th 2010 at 06:05 pm 100

     RE: 97-99
      
     If you’re looking for some generalizations about men on blogs, here a few.  Men are wonderful.  They tend to not to stress out about a lot of things that women do.  There’s a large number of them who just roll with the punches and don’t complain about much.  As a bunch they are really eager to please.  As a bunch they’re also really easy to please.  They take pride in taking caring of and providing for those they love.  Most also yearn to find someone with whom they can share their softer, more sensitive side as it’s not something they can share with most of their male buddies.  Many men enjoy helping out with all sorts of things, particularly handyman activities.  Most will also handle rodent & bug duty (I can handle bugs but I do not do rodents, at least not well).  And I’d say men are fabulous at giving hugs at the end of a bad day, and lots give excellent massages as well.  As I said, men are MARVELOUS!
      
     In terms of how you should act on a date, just act the way you normally would with someone you are just meeting (of either sex).  You wouldn’t normally unload all of your frustrations on someone you just meet, would you?  Do you start telling them about all your problems, either with previous relationships, health issues, your boss, or whatever else?  Would you monopolize the entire conversation, only talking about yourself?  Would you all of a sudden start calling/texting them daily, and/or get mad if they didn’t contact you as frequently?  I would say that most of the advice given about how you should date is about how you should treat anyone that you’re first getting to know.  Yes, there are people you run across and you immediately just “click” but I’d say that’s very rare.  Most of the time you get to know someone and as you trust them more and get to know them more then you share more about yourself.  The same is true for dating.

101. IceQueen Feb 9th 2010 at 11:19 am 101

     Men are very different. There are lots of sensitive guys and some guys today actually work on being more giving. There are many fantastic guys and honestly most of the men are not that different from women. Then again there are plenty of guys that are totally irresponsible, egotistical and cruel. Biologically though it seems that men are more simple and straightforward.
     Yet it doesn’t mean that a woman necessarily has 300 criteria. There are basically just three – his looks, faithfulness and having a stable income.
     The book about ’settling’ makes sense – it is wise to think about finding a stable partner that you are content with when you’re young enough and not leave it to an indefinite future. That’s just pure common sense and applies to both women and men (guys who think they can postpone it forever are fooling themselves, I get hit on by guys over 40 online every day in big numbers but they do not stand a chance since most of them are not that attractive anymore, hei, even a 30year old is not a spring chicken anymore).
     The question is whether you are able to stay with a guy that you’re not deeply and authentically, passsionately in love with for many years. Yes, he can be pleasant and ‘compatible’ but he is not the one you desire. And sometimes it can be enough. But it’s easy to suggest giving up the “I want a hot guy’ attitude, but I can’t help who I like. It’s only natural. He does not have to be a hunk, but there needs to be an authentic sexual attraction. You also have to think about the other party – is it fair to them to have them around only because it was time for you to ’settle’?
     Great point about the changes in the new generation of the women. We HAVE SEEN how our mothers sacrificed everything for the sake of the husband and family – and what many of them got in return for that. It is important to give to children, and a loving, supportive husband. But the reality of marriage is far from the ideal that we still have in our perceptions. I am not willing to sacrifice my life for the common marriage of 2010. Especially given the high divorce rates and high rates of cheating. There is no security in it and not that much of a reward. The man can leave any moment for a younger woman (how cliche but still…) and leave you totally heart broken and humiliated. Of course it can happen the other way around too and maybe it is good to stay together only for a while and leave when you are tired of each other. Will he be a good self-less husband, who will take up half of the domestic duties or will I have to do the second shift for free after work? The men really need to change. There is no incentive to get ’settled’ or married if you are a self-sufficient, well paid lady. There is only a wish for romantic, erotic love and eventually an equal partnership.

102. Sarah Feb 9th 2010 at 02:00 pm 102

     @101: “The men really need to change. There is no incentive to get ’settled’ or married if you are a self-sufficient, well paid lady. There is only a wish for romantic, erotic love and eventually an equal partnership.”

     Hear, hear! They have no choice if they want the best that women now have to offer men. Of course, if they don’t, they can always “settle,” too.

     I say, let anyone who wants to “settle” do so, and the rest of us will continue on our own happy way.

103. Karl R Feb 9th 2010 at 02:51 pm 103

     IceQueen said: (#101)
     “The men really need to change.”
     
     That reasoning will accomplish absolutely nothing.

     One rule holds true for everyone (men and women). There is only one person in the universe that you can reliably change … YOU.

     If you don’t believe me, try to change men for as long as you want.

104. StyleSista Feb 9th 2010 at 03:26 pm 104

     @Karl R: I’ll have to work on the proactiveness, it isn’t my strong suit, but reading your reply #86, I could see how that could help in my situation.
     @Sayanta #97: I have struggled with that too, at times. Sometimes I feel as though there is so much conflicting advice out there, and then I lose sight of my authentic self when I’m around someone I like ’cause I’m working through the script in my head.
      

105. Tina Feb 10th 2010 at 09:15 am 105

     I really want to read this.  I’m all the way in Italy, so I’ll have to see if there is an audio or e- version available on amazon.  Thanks for the great review and for letting us know about the book!  I’m 32 and ready for advice like this.

106. IceQueen Feb 10th 2010 at 09:32 am 106

     I didn’t mean changing individual men. Why would I want to change an adult male? I meant changing the gender perceptions. If men want to be in long term relationships with caring, sexy women (who pay their own bills) they need to be able to offer something that these women want (sex appeal, emotional support, humor, monogomy) or need (help around the house or being a good father). Like many men do. The point was that I as a woman do not want/need marriage more than a man does, I’m over the fact that somebody might think I’m somehow handicapped because I’m not married or in a long term relationship with a guy who doesn’t bother to propose. Nature loves balance and if a guy does not want to take up the traditional, patriarchial male role by supporting the woman who stays at home with a child, then the other option is a truly equal relationship. And if I can’t find a guy with who I can have a truly equal relationship, then I choose to remain single because it’s too much of a burden to be the breadwinner, the mother and the ‘good wife’ .

107. Sarah Feb 10th 2010 at 11:22 am 107

     @106: If that does not just say it all!!!!!

108. Karl R Feb 11th 2010 at 06:24 am 108

     IceQueen said: (#106)
     “If men want to be in long term relationships with caring, sexy women (who pay their own bills) they need to be able to offer something that these women want”

     Now we’re reaching some common ground. We agree that a relationship should be equal. Therefore, if you’re a sexy, caring woman who supports herself, you can get a sexy, caring man who supports himself. That’s it. You don’t get a man with 100 additional positive traits unless you bring more than those three qualities (though you can potentially trade one positive trait for an equivalent one).

     Before you start listing all of your positive traits … the only ones that count are the ones he’s interested in. (Which is fair, since you probably don’t consider his skill at video games to be a positive trait.) So he might only be judging you based on how sexy and caring you are. If you’re sexier and more caring than the next woman, you’re more desirable. If you’re less sexy and less caring, you’re less desirable … even if you’re richer, better educated, more stylish, a better cook, more athletic, etc.

     What happens if your “must have” list is 100 items long? By the time you find a man who is tall, well-read, a sharp dresser, funny, cultured, not bald (and 94 more things) … you’ve probably passed up a substantial number of men who were more caring than him. So you can either settle for a great guy who is less caring, or you’ll need to keep searching for someone who is also very caring. When you find a man who is that extraordinary, you’ll need to be sexier and more caring than any of the other women who are chasing him (and if he has that many positive qualities, it’s probably a large number).

     And there’s one more problem that you encounter when you insist upon a partner who is your equal. Most people overestimate the importance of their positive qualities and underestimate the importance of their negative qualities. If a man has overestimated his appeal, would you consider him to be your equal just because he believes he’s your equal? Probably not. The same thing happens if you’re overestimating your appeal.

     If Lori Gottlieb had been holding out for her equal, do you think she would still be single?

     Your situation is different from Lori’s. You’re happy being single. You can choose to hold out for the most outrageous combination of qualities and still be happily single.

109. Sarah Feb 11th 2010 at 01:41 pm 109

     Why is it that people always think that some less-desirable physical trait means that the person has some compensatorily fantastic personality? And haven’t we all stopped caring by this point whether or not Lori Gottlieb gets married? Such a boring conversation.  Let’s move on!!

110. Ruby Feb 11th 2010 at 02:43 pm 110

     Despite Gottlieb’s assertions, I’m not convinced that women are so much choosier than men. Men seem more simplistic in their approach; if they think a woman is hot, they’ll date her. If not, they won’t. I think that women are less picky about looks and somewhat pickier (more complicated) about other things. But I just read about a study that showed that when women were assigned the traditionally male role of approaching potential romantic partners (during speed dating events where women are normally approached by men), they were no more picky than men.
      
      
     Sarah #109
      
     Hear, hear!

111. sayanta Feb 11th 2010 at 03:22 pm 111

     Sarah-

     I don’t want to speak for Karl, or anyone else here- but the way I comprehend it, I don’t think he was saying that less desirable traits always means there’s some fantastic personality trait to compensate. I think he (and actually, Gottlieb), was saying that women of certain age and ‘credentials’  tend to pass up great guys because those guys don’t have certain physical traits that would ‘incite passion’ let’s say. And in holding out for the hot guy who also happens to be affectionate, nurturing, rich, educated, well-read, speaks 7 languages, under 35, etc., they’re passing up the chance for marriage and companionship.

     And yes- I know men do the above, too. But the book (and most of this blog) is about women.

112. JerseyGirl Feb 11th 2010 at 09:36 pm 112

     IceQueen, fantastic post on #106.
     I also agree with what Sayanta is saying in post #111. What I disagree on is that we must stick with the premise of talking about how this only affects women. Despite the book and the blog being geared to mostly women. Women can’t carry the weight of the dating world on their shoulders alone if men don’t want to meet us half way. And it’s for this reason you see less and less women wanting to settle. It’s not because we have out of the world wants and expectations. I think it has to do with the fact that the pay off to be with a man, while we all desire love and that companionship, is not always worth the price women seem to have to pay to get it. Lets be honest, women are suppose to be the relationship bearers. Because we are the ones that seem to have a more heavy desire for it. We carry more of the responsiblity for it. Since we are the ones that seek answers to improve it. And to be honest, who wants to both settle AND carry the burden of improving the relationship if men aren’t there to meet us half way?
     Karl keeps reminding us that the author is still single. I understand his point of view but I also think there is this fear we try to install in women “oh you’re going to end up single just like that woman!” But women today, while they don’t want to be alone and without love, have so many other things going on that if it comes to that, it will be okay. We don’t live in the day of white knights of men that want to take care of you to provide and protect anymore. For that, women are more independent.
     I really don’t think most women have such high expectations when it comes to relationships. I just think that women have been carrying the burden of being the relationship caretaker for so long, they now want men to man up a bit and meet them half way. And if they don’t? Then we can fullfill ourselves with our families, friends and work. There are more things in the modern world that fill a woman’s time. When previously it use to be just family and kids. Men have to compete more for our time and interest. And I don’t think think are evovling at the same rate women are emotionally in the modern world. So we are at a bit of an imbalance.

113. Diana Feb 12th 2010 at 06:04 am 113

     I think that women are starting to feel that with all they can accomplish in their lives today, giving them rich and fulfilling experiences, they do not need a man in the ways that women did before. Therefore, they feel they can afford to be more selective. This, coupled with the continuing relationship burden that JerseyGirl points out, makes them start to sit back and seriously question whether it’s a road they want to take. Their experiences are bringing into question whether they even want marriage or children, where as before it was more of a given. So the guy had better make it worth their while.

114. Sarah Feb 12th 2010 at 09:18 am 114

     @111: I wasn’t just speaking of Carl falling into this trap–it’s just out there in general in the world. “Go for the 8, because the 10 is egotistical/crazy/etc.” Well, I know plenty of people who are pretty on the outside and pretty on the inside, and plenty of people who are ugly on the inside and ugly on the outside. And some of Gottlieb’s examples of repulsiveness were not merely cosmetic (halitosis, for instance); they might indicate deeper socialization or health problems that would be problematic in a long-term relationship. In many cases, I would say, the person with the well-cared for smile and neatly pressed clothes and the financially responsible job is the better person to be with and also appears to be Mr. or Ms. Right.

     But mostly I agree with JerseyGirl and IceQueen. You know if you’ve got it goin’ on and a guy doesn’t. Better not to get it on if one or both of you don’t have it goin’ on.  

115. hunter Feb 14th 2010 at 09:33 am 115

     I agree , the average man will not buy a book on relationships, the few that do, don’t understand what they read……

116. Joe Feb 14th 2010 at 09:35 am 116

     Evan wrote:
     Men on my mailing list get VERY ANGRY if they’ve received an email for a woman.
     
     Really?

117. sayanta Feb 14th 2010 at 12:51 pm 117

     Going back and reading through these comments, I still think that Gottlieb’s book was a necessary read for me. At the same time, I was thinking…do you think she’s saying that we should stick with the first really nice guy we meet, even if we’re not attracted to him at all? I’m not even talking about fireworks or butterflies- i’m talking about a nice guy who’s, for example, really really awkward, or one so fem, I feel like the guy standing next to him.

     Someone may have mentioned above that sometimes these books seem to be written to scare women- and I think that’s the challenge of reading these books: striking a balance between being ‘demanding’ with the requirements, and feeling like you’ve got to settle for the first guy who’s decent because there’s just no one else around.

118. Kenley Feb 14th 2010 at 03:27 pm 118

     Sanyanta,
     Please read the entire book — don’t just skim it.  Gottlieb is NOT saying go for the first nice guy because no one else is around.  She is saying think long and hard about what are the essential qualities that will make a guy a good partner/husband and father.  Look for those traits and give a little on the more superficial ones.

119. sayanta Feb 14th 2010 at 07:29 pm 119

     #118-

     No, I definitely get that- I guess I’m really asking what’s considered superficial? Am I being superficial when I write off guys because I don’t feel physically attracted to them at all (and don’t see attraction coming in the future)? It’s hard because people define these things differently.

120. Kenley Feb 15th 2010 at 05:04 am 120

     Sayanta,
     I don’t think it is being superficial when you write guys off because you don’t feel any attraction what so ever.  I think, however, attraction is not necessarily static.  I would say that if you are not totally and completely repulsed by a guy,  but are just neutral, and he appears to have other qualities that are important to you, you can at least try to get to know him better.  In some cases, the more you get to know and like a guy, the more attractive he becomes.
     I think perhaps instead of thinking, what can this guy do that will make me happy, you can think about what can we give EACH OTHER that would make US a happy couple.
      

121. Isabelle Archer Feb 15th 2010 at 07:15 am 121

     <i>Am I being superficial when I write off guys because I don’t feel physically attracted to them at all (and don’t see attraction coming in the future)? </i>

     Not at all.  It would be incredibly cruel to a man to stay with him when you’re totally unattracted to him, just because you want to “Marry Him.”

122. Selena Feb 15th 2010 at 09:04 am 122

     Kenley #120 wrote:
     “In some cases, the more you get to know and like a guy, the more attractive he becomes.”

     Has happened to me a few times.

123. sayanta Feb 15th 2010 at 09:42 am 123

     thanks for the insight guys- yeah, i get what you’re all saying. But the whole feeling ‘butch’ next to the guy is kinda a dealbreaker for me, I guess. lol

124. Selena Feb 15th 2010 at 01:06 pm 124

     We’re not saying go for the guys who make you feel ‘butch’ – how many of them are you meeting anyway? (If it’s alot, you need to start going different places.) We’re saying you don’t have to dismiss someone simply because there isn’t instant infatuation. Sometimes the guy you might think to be a little plain, not tall enough,  too quiet,  or whatever … becomes more and more attractive in your eyes if you take the time to see what he’s all about. That’s all. It’s not about tying yourself to someone with whom the idea of kissing is Yiiick! 

125. sayanta Feb 15th 2010 at 01:25 pm 125

     #124-

     For some reason, I always seem to get asked out by the really shy, fem guys (although I guess they’re not that shy if they’re asking me out). Hell, maybe I am butch. Oh well.

126. Selena Feb 15th 2010 at 05:12 pm 126

     LOL ! There’s just something about Sayanta…

127. sayanta Feb 15th 2010 at 05:44 pm 127

     

128. downtowngal Feb 21st 2010 at 04:43 pm 128

     I agree, there are plenty of people out there (men and women) who have unrealistic expectations about relationships and therefore sabotoge their quest for true love.

     I haven’t read the book but I think the buzz about it is misleading.  Women are more apt to seek/read advice books, and the danger is that the idea of books like this is to give the impression that the reason many women are single is 100% their own fault.  I can assure you that there are plenty of men out there who are just as equally responsible.  

      So enough with the scare tactics already!  Like when Newsweek came out with this article 20 years ago about how women 30+ have  greater chance of blah blah  then getting married.  Turned out to be completely false, most of the women in the article ended up getting married,  newsweek recanted the story after realizing the ‘research’ on which the article was based was faulty. 

     But a whole generation of women took the premise of the article seriously, married men who weren’t right for them because they were scared they w0uldn’t meet anyone, only to end up divorced a few years later. 

129. Simone Feb 25th 2010 at 08:37 am 129

     @128: Or 100% their own choice.

130. Karl R Feb 25th 2010 at 12:01 pm 130

     downtowngal said: (#128)
     “the danger is that the idea of books like this is to give the impression that the reason many women are single is 100% their own fault. I can assure you that there are plenty of men out there who are just as equally responsible.“

     I would say that it’s 100% the women’s responsibility.

     Let’s say that you’re unemployed. The current economic situation is probably a major factor. But it’s your responsibility to find yourself a new job. Nobody would recommend that you wait until the economy improves before you go searching.

     Let’s say I’m unemployed in this economy. I’ve gotten a dozen job offers for jobs that I’m qualified to do, and which would meet my financial needs … but I keep rejecting them because they don’t quite match up to the job I was laid off from.

     Let’s say that you’re an employer, and you offered me a job … one of the dozen jobs that I turned down. Would you say that my continued unemployment is my fault or your fault?

     Most single men have dated (or attempted to date) women who turned us down because we didn’t match up to some standard which we felt was unreasonable. Our male friends have encountered the same situation. Try to convince us that it’s our fault that you’re still single. (Is it your fault that we’re still single?)

131. JB Mar 11th 2010 at 07:42 pm 131

     When Evan told us about this book I went and read the book she wrote before this one  first “I Love You,Nice To Meet You”
     which I enjoyed a lot. It’s very funny ! I recomend it to all.

     I read “Marry Him” over the last couple days and I thought it was great. Yes,Evan is great in the book as well. It was a lot easier to read than the 130 comments above me…lol I think it’s as simple as Gottlieb saying……”look,this is what I’ve been and am going through” maybe some women that have marriage and children as a priority can learn something from it and maybe even see a little of yourself in it” maybe YOU can learn from my mistakes.

     I’m male late 40’s never married,don’t want to be or have kids and don’t apologise for it.That doesn’t mean I don’t want to be in a healthy relationship. I love reading these books so I hate when everyone says “Men don’t read these books” yadda yadda yadda.Of course I read other “pick-up”(<—I hate the term) books,websites,this blog etc… as well that men DO read. So I’m not the norm. I read & watch everything.

     Evan taught her in the book what he try’s to teach women here everyday and I think she’s going to keep using his advice. I don’t agree with everything she wrote nor do I agree with everything Evan says but I’ll always listen and take what certain people whose opinions I respect into consideration. Even when Lori first sat down with Evan to do the online thing she went straight for the “hot alpha guys” her age with no kids and like so many I see online everyday they keep doing it …over and over and getting the same result. Evan basically had to yell at her to get it into her head. THESE are the guys you should be emailing not THOSE. I wish every woman online in the world today would at least open their minds and realise. We’re sorry…..there’s not enough ‘Prince Charming,Mr.Perfect,”The One’s” for every woman on the planet. Some of you will have to date and yes……even marry ……wait for it……….dare I say it?…….regular guys.

     As for Lori……it doesn’t take a relationship or dating expert to know that once she decided to become a “single mom” her options would change dramatically as she found out.I really wonder how much she thought or cared about it.What’s more important having a baby or a husband first?

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