I Keep Scaring Guys Away. What Am I Doing Wrong?

I Keep Scaring Guys Away. What Am I Doing Wrong?

I’ve tried going after guys I’m attracted to even if I don’t really know them. For instance, there was this guy in the gym. I guess I creeped him out. I don’t know why… maybe he found me unattractive… who knows? But I kept trying to talk to him and he would run away because we were on the running track. He was kind of a jerk and then I caught him near the barbells where the men work out and I said “Hey,” he seemed like he was nice because he smiled at me, took off his headphones and said “What’s up?” I asked him why he was running away from me. He didn’t give me a direct answer but he said “I can talk to you 20 minutes from now” with a smile and he said he was going to work out… Well, he ended up ditching me. He had me wait an entire hour and then he quickly walked past me without looking back at me.

Now I’m wondering… what did I do wrong? Was there something different I could have done when approaching him? Is he just a jerk (probably)? Next time I see him, should I talk to him again?

Also, I want to talk to this guy at my Church but I’ve had so many rejections that I’m wondering if I should even talk to this guy or if I will scare him away too. I’m not really confident that he will like me.


Stop being a guy.

Since third grade, boys are taught that if they like a girl, they have to ask her out.

Before you get defensive – or before any women get on my case for invoking more gender stereotypes, let’s establish that stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason.

Since third grade, boys are taught that if they like a girl, they have to ask her out. Or pull her hair. Or something like that.

It never ceases to be nerve wracking, but that, in fact, is the way a vast majority of the dating world works.

Man sees attractive woman, gets the nerve to talk to her, they have a nice conversation, he asks for her number, calls her, plans the date, picks her up, pays, drives her home, kisses her goodnight, and calls the next day to see if they can do it all over again.

I don’t see much room for disagreement with this one.

That doesn’t mean that it’s impossible for women to approach men, ask out men, offer sex to men, or propose to men; it’s just that it seems that most men and women are comfortable with these gender roles. And when they’re undermined, many people get a little ruffled.

Don’t women get upset when men don’t call after a date?
Don’t women get upset when men don’t pay?
Don’t women get upset when men don’t make plans?
Don’t women get upset when men don’t make the first move?

If so, you’re buying into these same stereotypes of what we expect from men.

As for what men expect from women?

We just want you to say yes.

Say yes to talking to us at the gym.
Say yes to agreeing to drinks on Friday.
Say yes when I insist on paying.
Say yes when I try to kiss you.
Say yes when I follow up for a second date.

This is the core message of my book, Why He Disappeared. It’s not that you’re “wrong” to approach men the way you have, Ashley. It’s that it hasn’t been proven to be particularly effective.

So why keep doing something that isn’t working for you?

Men do what we want – most of the time. There’s always going to be some guy who’s too shy to say hi or ask for your number, but most women don’t want a man with that little confidence anyway.

Your job is simply to put yourself in the position to be approached.

Cross the room near him. Plant yourself within eyeshot of him. Turn. Smile. Make eye contact. Look away. Flip your hair. You’re essentially giving him every opening to approach YOU. If he does, then YOU’RE in control. If he doesn’t, he’s not interested.


And if you really, really want to keep on approaching guys, click here, and scroll down to read Samantha Scholfield’s Screw Cupid which teaches women how to approach hot guys. For the more laid back system, which involves getting men to come to you, I’ve heard that Mama Gena’s School of Womanly Arts is a good read.


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  1. 91

    OK, lets clarify a few things first.
    First, you are assuming that marriage – from the female position – connotes an intention to mate for life.

    Perhaps I am more cynical than you are, or you are merely not familiar with the term ‘starter marriage’.

     Secondly, a variance of success across samples is reasonably what we should expect with respect to any evolutionary strategy like this, which is sensitive to favorable conditions.

    And, at this moment, without diving further into the data, I can only speculate on what some of these factors might be.

    Thirdly, my intuition tells me that statistical data hasn’t yet caught up with what happening in the mating landscape - namely that since the % of unmarried males(in particular) is increasing  we are experiencing some strategic turnover from extrapair mating, to one where many women are instead marrying(or cohabiting – for increasingly short durations) many of these same men who they might otherwise have cheated *with*, while married to some hapless mark who now no longer even warrants their consideration.

    In, any case, the measured rates of paternal discrepancy, really says nothing about relative advantage(again, evolution is sensitive to any measurable significance) of a hypothetical sample of ‘choice’ males.

    Lastly, you are making the mistake that these evolutionary strategies are more subject to rationality, than the *other way around*(ie. these strategies are effective where correlated with reproductive fitness, whether this correlation is conscious or not).

  2. 92

    Thanks, Evan and Karl for responding to my comment.  Karl, I’ve given your response (96) quite a bit of thought the past few days. I will try what you suggested in your last paragraph.  I mean it’s not a lot to lose, right?
    I do realize I don’t trust many men I don’t know. Why? Most of my life I’ve been trying to put out the energy that I don’t want to sleep with men.  I don’t want to lead men on. And it is difficult for me to find men that are attractive to me.  So the vibe I’m putting out is honest and true.  When I find a man I do want I have a rather high sex drive. But that guy has to pass a lot of barriers with me before we ever get to that point.  Most men I’ve dated were my friends first or met through friends.
    So I don’t really look at men I don’t know in that way. And the vibe I put out with people is very neutral and non-sexual.  Makes sense that that is what I get back. It feels safe to me and I don’t think I’m going to change myself completely in that respect in one month. (I’m giving it a month.)
    But I did try yesterday to even look at men on the street. I didn’t find anyone attractive but there is always tomorrow. And I’ll try to find some activities where I feel more comfortable and might even meet the same men again. Maybe some volunteer activity? I do think it’s important that I start where I feel comfortable and take baby steps with this.  I know me and that’s how I’m getting myself to try. At least I’m trying.
    I did realize that I am pretty guarded with people I don’t know. For me it feels safe. Sure, in reality it probably is all very safe.  But it’s hard for me to explain to men how unsafe you feel as a single woman on the streets so I’m not going to try here.  It may just a perception but there it is.  So we’ll see, Karl.
    I will report back to this post in one month.

  3. 93
    Karl R

    S. said: (#105)
    “I don’t trust many men I don’t know.”

    I grew up in Detroit. I don’t trust anybody I don’t know. I don’t trust some of the people I do know.

    But I don’t have to trust someone to smile at them.

    S. said: (#105)
    “it is difficult for me to find men that are attractive to me.”
    “vibe I put out with people is very neutral and non-sexual.”
    “It feels safe to me”

    Put yourself in the man’s shoes for a minute.

    You don’t find most men attractive. So the odds of a man getting turned down by you is what? 90%? Even higher?

    The safe bet (for men) is to avoid asking you out.

    If everybody plays it safe, nobody dates. The men who are successful at dating take some risks. They mitigate their chance of getting turned down/rejected/snubbed by avoiding women who are highly likely to turn them down.

    If you avoid making eye contact and won’t smile at me, you’ve just signaled to me that you’re definitely not interested in me. Why would a man approach you if you’ve just told him that you’re not interested? Only the most socially clueless men will ignore that signal.

    S. said: (#105)
    “But it’s hard for me to explain to men how unsafe you feel as a single woman on the streets so I’m not going to try here.”

    I grew up in Detroit. I live in another major city now. I was violently assaulted in broad daylight by four teenagers about four years ago. (And that wasn’t the first time.)

    I’m guarded and unwelcoming on the street.

    Who tries to approach women on the street? (Besides panhandlers.)

    I met women at church, yoga, online, at the dance studio or while out dancing. With the exception of online dating, women would be surrounded by other people when I approached them. I wanted the women to see me interacting with others before they met me.

    A smart man wants you to feel safe when he approaches you.

    But these are all environments where there are multiple women. I wasn’t wasting my time with women who were clearly letting me know they weren’t interested.

    S. said: (#105)
    “Maybe some volunteer activity?”

    I’ve heard that volunteer activities don’t tend to attract many single men.

    S. said: (#105)
    “I do think it’s important that I start where I feel comfortable and take baby steps with this.”

    If you want to make progress, you’ll have to start where you feel slightly uncomfortable. And when you get comfortable with that, your next step is something else that seems slightly uncomfortable.

  4. 94

    ” And it is difficult for me to find men that are attractive to me.”

    ” But I did try yesterday to even look at men on the street. I didn’t find anyone attractive but there is always tomorrow.”

    To be honest, it sounds like you are so selective(typically so?), that you are always going to be competing with other women for the affections of a very small pool of select males, *unless* you can learn to find some subset of males attractive that more attractive women don’t(otherwise the men you find attractive are always going to have *lots* of female attention, and thus, obvious options – making the prospects for a LTR problematic, at best).


  5. 95

    Karl R wrote: “If you want to make progress, you’ll have to start where you feel slightly uncomfortable. And when you get comfortable with that, your next step is something else that seems slightly uncomfortable.”
    This is good advice for life in general. We need to challenge ourselves in every aspect of our lives to avoid stagnation. Yes, it may be uncomfortable, but the satisfaction and happiness you derive from simply trying, and from overcoming your own obstacles, is worth it.

  6. 96

    I’m a single woman and I have never understood the women who insist that being a woman is fraught with so much danger.

    I’ve been in just about every major city in the U.S. and lot internationally and I’ve been on subways, buses, train stations, out at night, pretty much anything you can imagine, all by myself.  And I’m still alive and have never been harmed.

    A lot of this defensiveness is in your head.

    Like Karl said, people who want to attack you will attack you.  Having a penis doesn’t make you bulletproof so I don’t think muggers really care.  

    So your experience is your experience but it sounds like Karl, who has been the victim of crime, has more reason to be nervous than you, and that is independent of his chromosomes, so I think he DOES get it more than me, a fellow woman who does not feel danger at every turn.   

  7. 97

    Well, Karl and others. I said I would try and I will. So all of your good arguments I already had in my head and came to an answer on my own. 
    I guess . . . I just go about life a lot not thinking about dating, really. I never even think about turning a guy down because I’m not thinking about dating, guys, or any of that on the street.  Some of it is guardedness. Some of it is habit. Habits are hard to break, but I’m willing to try. 
    When I’ve liked a man, I’ve told him. So I’ve either been living my life or I’ve initiated with the men I wanted. They were usually friends and I knew them for a while before dating.  The reason I’m considering a change is curiosity.  I honestly didn’t realize that men were waiting for some sort of non-verbal signal from me. When I like them, I tell them.  I thought it would work vice versa. 
    So I guess it’s hard for me to put myself in their place? If I’m not making eye contact or smiling, it’s because I’m running late to work, forgot to pick up milk before the store closes, thinking about whether I have a fresh t-shirt for the gym . . . my mind is on a hundred other things. Does it mean I’d turn someone down? I don’t even know.  My mind would be on whether I have milk the next day. I know it sounds strange but it’s kind of hard to change gears.  I have sort of a one-track mind when on the go.  Doesn’t mean I’m uninterested, just not in that mode on the street. Hey, I own that maybe this is just me.  I don’t blame men for not approaching me.  I just don’t expect people to be interested while I’m walking on the street or going about my day. 
    As for men being attractive? I don’t know.  I guess I like getting to know men first, that’s what attracts me.  The street thing might not work for me. But who knows? I just have to come out of my own little world a bit. 
    I’m willing to try it because why not?  I know it will be a bit uncomfortable, but again I said I’ll try anyway.  So you don’t have to convince me! I will try and let you know how it turns out. I’m just going to smile and take it from there. :)

  8. 98

    S, I like your post. I would only say that I, and I suspect many others, would welcome a verbal approach. Non-verbal “signals” mean nothing to me.

  9. 99

    S: you can’t trust someone you don’t know, but you can’t get to know them unless you let them get to know you too.

    Also, if you’re having trouble actually meeting men, and don’t want to go the online route, there’s no better way to meet men than getting involved in activities that are generally male-dominated, but accepting of women.  Things like:
    • Geeky stuff, like scifi/fantasy, computers/video games, or F2F games (D&D, et al.).
    • Cars/motorsports.
    • Guns/shooting sports.
    • Sports in general.

    Despite a few activities (like American football), there really are very few activities where men actively don’t want women to participate with them.  Because there are relatively few women into these things, the guys are very welcoming of women–they’ll help you out as a newbie in the hope you’ll stick around–men do like women to be involved in their activities.

  10. 100

    Just think of all the potentially great relationships that could have happened in this world if at specific moments in their lives, women had stepped up and asked a man out. For the droves of get-togethers that would have gone nowhere, there would have been a sizable number that ended in marriage and happiness.

    Women are strong and perfectly capable in every other aspect of life and it boggles my mind that somehow it’s OK for them to be wallflowers in this area.

    Men will do a lot of asking out because they have no choice but they will only do so much. If, say, I’ve had three rejections in a month or two, I may not try again for quite a while because the rejections take a heavy emotional toll on me. That business about, oh, “don’t take it personal” – yeah, right. IT’S PERSONAL when you are in effect told you’re not good enough to spend time with someone.

    So men can only do so much of that. Intellectually I also find myself highly bothered by having to do all the asking. I find it degrading and demeaning to constantly have to beg women to spend time with me. I’m always thinking why don’t YOU do some of this?

  11. 101

    It’s best to let the man doing the asking out. If he’s a man and he wants you, it won’t be a problem. If he doesn’t want you enough, he won’t ask. You will run into the occasional man with who is shy or who has some type of mental, anxiety or emotional problem. But guess what? If you chase him down and get him, you have to deal with his problem! Women would do well to remember the saying, “Be careful what you wish for, you may get it.”

  12. 102

    Margo, let’s reduce this to its simplest form. How would YOU like it if throughout your entire life, if you wanted ANYTHING to do with the opposite sex, you had to do the asking, the planning of the date, the driving, the paying, and the follow up calling, all the while with a rejection far more likely to come your way than from you to the other person. I don’t think you’d like it one bit. And what does “If he’s a man” mean?  

  13. 103

    If you want men to be the man, i.e. do all the traditional things men have done, you have to be the woman and do all the traditional things women have done in the past.  If there’s something traditional you don’t want to do, you can be guaranteed that there’s something traditional men won’t want to do.

  14. 104

    As a guy who works out, I appreciate it when a woman approaches me after a set complimenting me. I take that as a compliment, and if I am interested, I can take it from there. If I am not interested, I will still be nice. And I will acknowledge you the next time I see you.
    But, there’s no reason to come on too strong. If you do, I will suspect something is up. Why are you trying so hard? You already separated yourself from most other women by being proactive. That’s enough and I know what to do next. Much more than that is too much and is a turn-off.

  15. 105

    I’m not sure if anyone is still following this post. But it’s a month later and I thought I’d check in for posterity’s sake. I learned a lot with my little experiment. Let me try to sum it up.

    What I Did

    So I took Evan and Karl’s advice. I read all the books. I read Why He Disappeared. I read Mama Gena. I read Have Him at Hello. Have Him at Hello spoke to me more than the other titles, I must admit, but all the themes are similar. I feel I do understand what attracts men to women. I knew this before reading the books! This is stuff my mama told me and her mama told her. It’s not rocket science. But I learned something else. I wasn’t thinking about what I knew about men. I was thinking about me. And why not? I’m a single woman. I live my life for my own pleasure and happiness. It’s served me well. And I don’t exactly want to change.

    I realized something else! As I read the books, I remembered Evan’s quote. “Stop being a guy.” But guess what? I like being like the guy. The more I read about men the more I realized my thoughts were more like men than the women in examples. As I read the advice about men, I kept saying, “That’s me! That’s what I want!” I want someone easy! I want to pursue. I do! So that’s why I do. ;-) The thing is I get bored really easily. And I’m drawn to men who aren’t as assertive as I am socially. I think I want someone like am, but when I really, really thought about it, no, I don’t. (See, I totally get why men don’t either!) So that’s why all the advice hit me with this visceral “No!” Instinctively, I realized I *do* have to be a bit more forward since the men I’m drawn to are more passive. If I waited for them, I’d get bored and lose whatever attraction I have for them while waiting.

    So that’s good to know! I do think Evan’s advice is good for most women. And I did try it. I tried a new hairstyle, I bought a few new outfits. Smiling was hard and I’m still working on that. I’ve been told my smile is very engaging so I do not turn the wattage of that up very often. Honestly? Although I’m more aware of the men around me, I don’t find most men attractive. I’m not as into looks so it’s hard. Some guys are cute but gosh, somehow so many men are younger than me too! How’d that happen?

    I have been having fun and I have learned that men like different hair than I like and well, are more openly visual than women are. It’s difficult. I haven’t had men falling over me to ask me out. But more men have held doors open for me, I have had more casual conversations with men in the past few weeks, and I just interact more with men than just tucking my head in a book as had been my habit. Occasionally, (if I smile) a man might stop in his tracks and say hello. So that stuff does work if you’re comfortable with it. Sometimes I am and sometimes I’m not.

    What I Learned

    So I will give it another month, especially as the weather gets warmer. I think for any advice to work you really have to internalize it. I don’t think anyone reads something in a book, hears something from a friend, or even hears something from someone they pay for advice and goes right out and just does it. At least I don’t. I have to find a way to do this that works for me. And I’m finding my way. So a lot of revelations and a lot of things I’ve learned. And I’ve made my peace with the fact that deep inside I like the passive ones (I think they are sweet, kind and adorable, but yes, achingly slow.) I need to remind myself of that. I’ll take the good with the bad with that type because I like the good. :-)

    Thanks, all!

    ETA: One thing that the author of Have Him At Hello finally made clear to my head. If you become more friendlier, more feminine whatever it is to men it’s not about changing your whole personality. It’s just about changing the perception of who you are a little so that the person asks you out a second time. It’s supposedly temporary until a man has time to really get to know you. This is important. In her interviews men often didn’t ask women out again based on what they thought their date was, not who she really was. I say supposedly temporary because like I said earlier, being more approachable/appealing to men is something one has to internalize. It’s not as simple as putting on lipstick and going out the door. At least not for some of us. Even during this month–I wasn’t even dating anyone yet–I kept asking, when can I stop this? When can I go back to who I really am? I’m not sure when. I do feel it is a bit of bait and switch but . . . that’s why I’m tweaking the advice. My hair may swing and I may flash my most friendliest warmest smile ever. The first impression might be this warm, cuddly armful of sweet womanhood. Which isn’t entirely untrue. :-) But! When I talk there is just enough sass so that men know there is a thinking woman beneath the flowy dress and curls, mister! She won’t break your balls, but she has a mind of her own. It’s a subtle distinction but I really, really had to be clear on all of this before I went out in the world with these new thoughts. I’m really glad I read Have Him at Hello and that the author made that point clear.

  16. 106
    Karl R

    S. said: (#118)
    “Occasionally, (if I smile) a man might stop in his tracks and say hello. So that stuff does work if you’re comfortable with it. Sometimes I am and sometimes I’m not.”

    A month ago you weren’t comfortable with it. Period. You’ve made progress from where you were a month ago (#93).

    S. said: (#118)
    “like I said earlier, being more approachable/appealing to men is something one has to internalize.”

    I would say that you’ll see some results even when you’re just acting. You’ll see better results when you’ve practiced it enough to internalize it. But you’re practicing this stuff and seeing results. That’s what I was trying to encourage.

  17. 107

    Wow, you really keep track of these threads, Karl! Thanks for your encouragement.

    Yep, I’m a bit more comfortable, but I had to WORK at being comfortable. It was not easy and still isn’t easy. I think being this way will always be an effort for me.

    But that doesn’t mean it’s an effort not worth making. Just sometimes I feel like it and sometimes I don’t.

    And sure, there are some results. But I had to really think about some of the points made above before I could do it. It may seem simple but for me, it was not. Fortunately, I found a way to have fun with it some of the time. It’s an interesting experiment with nothing to really lose so why not? :)

    I will be back next month. You were right about giving it two months. ;)

  18. 108

    I think Evan was spot on here as was Steve (#4). OP – If the roles were reversed you would not feel you owed the man any type of straightforwardness or explanation, so unless you suffer from severe histronic narcissitic personality disorder, why not a two way street? Also implying he is a jerk just sounds like bitter sour grapes.

  19. 109

    The numers show that fewer guys are approaching women. Good! Let the
    women taste some of this rejection and even up the odds. Oh, they don’t want that? They want it tilted for them? Gee, that’s fair!

  20. 110

    I have a horrible feeling that if you approach a man and he ISN’T interested, he might just play interested so that he can sleep with you and be done.
    Strange that the lady goes up to a man who is busy in a gym – he’s busy in the gym, isn’t he? He may have wanted to “catch up with her later”.  But maybe he genuinely did want to do his gym??
    I’ve had men who have been interested in me.  One in particular, I remember very well.  He asked me out, to go to the restaurant together as friends.  Those were his words.  I did kind of double take, but accepted.  A few days after, he called me again, and I was unfortunately not available.  Later on, we met up and it was clear to me that he was a rather needy individual.
    At that time in my life, there were family things going on which meant that
    1) I could not give ANYONE that much affection, as I was concentrating on family issues.
    2) If I had accepted his invitation, he would probably then have been the type of person in all likelihood to say, why did you accept my date, if you weren’t interested in me?
    Answer; Cos you said on “date” 1, that it was just as friends and then you switched.  And I don’t like that.

  21. 111
    Karl R

    Judy said: (#123)
    “I have a horrible feeling that if you approach a man and he ISN’T interested, he might just play interested so that he can sleep with you and be done.”
    It’s possible. Or he might want an extended sexual relationship, but not much more. Or he might want a more serious relationship but decide shortly after it becomes sexual that you’re not a good match. Or he might have that revelation long before the relationship becomes sexual.
    Is having sex with a man (who later ends up breaking up) that horrible of an experience? If so, postpone sex until you have enough confidence that the man wants to stick around. As I’ve said repeatedly, postponing sex won’t make him more likely to stick around, but it increases the chance the breakup occurs before you have sex.
    Judy asked: (#123)
    “Strange that the lady goes up to a man who is busy in a gym – he’s busy in the gym, isn’t he? He may have wanted to ‘catch up with her later’.  But maybe he genuinely did want to do his gym??”
    If he wanted to catch up with her later, he would have spoken with Ashley when she was waiting for him after his workout, instead of blowing past her. He wasn’t exactly subtle about it.
    I have nothing against women pursuing men. But if a woman is going to pursue men, she has to understand the rules/strategies that apply to a pursuer. The pursuer has to be very attuned to whether their attention is wanted or unwanted. Ashley wasn’t. If a man keeps pursuing a woman who has expressed her disinterest as strongly as the man at the gym did, he’ll get labeled a creep (at best) or a stalker (at worst).

  22. 112

    Karl 124
    Is having sex with a man (who later ends up breaking up) that horrible of an experience? If so, postpone sex until you have enough confidence that the man wants to stick around. As I’ve said repeatedly, postponing sex won’t make him more likely to stick around, but it increases the chance the breakup occurs before you have sex.
    For me, having sex with a man is something quite important.  It’s not that it’s horrible – the sexual act could be (and has been) rather great.   And if he drops you afterwards, you don’t know if it’s because HE didn’t find the sex great between you (like he did) or he didn’t want to stick around anyway.  And chances are, you won’t find out.
    We have different viewpoints on this one, Karl.  But I understand what you say that if you postpone sex, it might increase the break up too.  Yes, I heard you. 

  23. 113

    This is idiotic. Every guy I’ve ever dated, I’ve asked out, and I haven’t been single since I was 18 (that’s 18 years). I’m happily married to a man who’s perfect for me. He had never asked out any of his previous girlfriends because he’s a shy, introverted type, but he’s a real find. Guys who can’t handle women asking them out are from an older generation and wed to gender stereotypes. You don’t want to be wed to them. Keep trying! Almost everyone – man or woman – will get rejected about 9 times out of 10 if they ask out every single person they find attractive; it’s just life. To live and love successfully, you need to learn to deal with rejection without taking it personally.
    The other thing is, women, if you never do the asking you are never the chooser and you may never go after the men whom you truly want. That is giving up your power. That’s stupid. Would you let your dessert choose you? Would you let your job choose you? No. So don’t wait for your partner to choose you. Scaring men away sometimes is okay. There’s nothing wrong with you. Just keep trying!

    1. 113.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      It’s not idiotic, Jennifer. It’s commonsense. Yes, rejection is a predictable outcome, but the rejection for most women will come in the context of the relationship – some form of “He’s Just Not That Into you”. Women do not have to ask out men, primarily because MOST men WILL ask you out if they’re interested. Your husband is the EXCEPTION not the rule. So just because it worked for you doesn’t mean it’s the ideal societal relationship paradigm. I have no trouble with you bucking society; but let’s not pretend that most men like to be in the feminine role of being asked out; more of them choose to pursue women than to be pursued.

  24. 114

    Yes! I have approached men a few times and never, ever has it worked out. They’ve run for the hills. Even before I found Evan’s blog, I had vowed never to approach again – this post just reiterates it. Creating an easier way for interested men to approach seems a fantastic and logical idea… thanks Evan!

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