How Can I Be Sure That He’s the Right One?
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Evan,
How would I know if my doubts about my boyfriend and my future with him are a search for perfection or are reasons for legitimate concerns? I’ve read the “Marry him!” book and I agree that a man’s limitations are simply human flaws we all have… but then, I would come across articles like this one saying I should not ignore my doubts and having doubts is a predictor of a high divorce rate.
I did a very honest evaluation of my boyfriend’s pluses and minuses (we’ve been together for close to 2 years) and I STILL don’t know if I should be with him in a long run. He has great qualities: he is a man of integrity, he is loving, affectionate, devoted, generous in his heart and with his actions, honest. However, I’m afraid that the things that irritate me (his mood swings, insecurities, social ineptness and trust issues) will be the ones to break us apart in the future. How do you know what are the deal breakers?
–Stephani
Stephani,
I can’t tell you what YOU should do.
I don’t know you. I don’t know your boyfriend. I don’t know how happy you are. I don’t know about your communication, values and conflict resolution.
Chemistry can’t redeem a broken relationship; all it can do is provide fuel (in the form of attraction) that irrationally erases your doubts, even when those doubts should be there.
So all I’ll say to you is that your boyfriend of two years is the KIND of man you should consider marrying: loving, affectionate, devoted, generous, honest.
But just because someone is all of those things doesn’t mean you necessarily marry him. Marriage isn’t simply about loyalty and stability. It’s about a personal connection as well.
And that’s something that gets lost when people cite “Marry Him” and misinterpret my “character over chemistry” mantra.
So let me keep it really simple for you:
You can have all the chemistry, passion and common interests in the world and it doesn’t matter if: you fight all the time, you don’t feel the same about monogamy or children, you have wildly different views on money or religion, or if one party lacks in character and is willing to lie, cheat, steal, or defy the other party instead of compromising and communicating.
This is what I mean by choosing values over chemistry.
Chemistry can’t redeem a broken relationship; all it can do is provide fuel (in the form of attraction) that irrationally erases your doubts, even when those doubts should be there.
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77 Comments »Filed Under Marriage
Cheryl 1
He has mood swings, is insecure and has trust issues? I don’t know this couple at all, but I’d say she has every reason to have doubts. Yes, he has a lot of standards that most of us should look for in someone, but with the above issues, there should be a lot of doubt. Those issues don’t go away, and in my opinion, usually get worse over time.
Almita 2
Evan has always emphasized that a woman should feel “safe” with the man she chooses to be with. I would not feel safe (emotionally) with a man who demonstrated mood swings, insecurities, or trust issues. I would always be on edge.
Jenna 3
I really like this post because it stresses that a certain degree of chemistry is needed to get married even if the guy is loving and honest. I dislike when people use chemistry to describe an instant spark or sexual attraction and prefer to think of it as having a personal connection in which you can laugh together, get along great, talk for hours, and truly enjoy your time together. You don’t need red hot passion but sex should not be a chore. I’ve dated nice men in the past where we lacked this and I really don’t regret that things ended.
This guy doesn’t seem all that great. Socially inept? Trust issues? Yikes!
Birdlife 4
I feel for you – a tough one – but your doubts are valid
BeenThruTheWars 5
If you’re at a party, and the ONLY guy in the room you’d want to go home with is the guy you’re with – 100% of the time? You’re with the right guy IMO. After 7 years of marriage, I still feel strongly that way about my second husband. With my first husband, I almost never felt that way. That’s why he is now my “first husband,” and the man I’m with now is my “last husband.” (I never refer to him as my second husband, because I don’t like the underlying implication there could ever be a third!
Goldie 6
Agree with first three commenters. Trust issues alone can kill a marriage. I’d give it a pass.
Jackie Holness 7
Yes, having doubts is a tricky issues…so you have to have a lot of time for personal reflection…I hope everything turns out as it should be in this case…
Karmic Equation 8
I think it depends.
When I was engaged (I was engaged after 6 weeks of dating, but didn’t have a wedding until about 2 yrs later), at around the 18 month-mark, I threw back my ring at my fiance in a fit of anger.
I had doubts about “us” as a couple and he had made me angry about something, I can’t even remember about what.
I took back the ring because I thought I had “cold feet” because normally I rarely get angry and I don’t have doubts about anything I choose to do. However, I figured I just had cold feet and went ahead with the wedding because doubts about my choices are so foreign to me.
In retrospect, BECAUSE I rarely have doubts about anything I *SHOULD HAVE* listened to my doubts instead of dismissing them. Hindsight is 20/20 after all.
I guess if I were a person who’s prone to 2nd guessing herself, then I probably did have the normal cold feet. But I rarely have 2nd thoughts about anything. That should have been my clue.
In the case of the OP’s guy — insecurities, mood swings, and trust issues (social ineptness can be tolerated. Think “Curb Your Enthusiasm”) — are NOT trivial things and are qualities that would probably get WORSE in a A SECURE, LOCKED DOWN relationship, like marriage. These are qualities that DON’T change after marriage, but probably are magnified by it. In other words, the unmarried guy is on his BEST behavior now…once he’s got a wife he’s got no motivation to stay on his best behavior to keep her. He’s already got her. (Cynical, but true. I believe mental and physical abusers are like this…ok until marriage then all hell breaks loose.)
The OP has valid doubts and, were I her, I wouldn’t marry such a “broken” guy. He should actually seek medical advice about his mood swings as he could have a form of bipolar disorder, “mixed bipolar” or “cyclothymia”.** I only suggest this because I read up on this disorder when I suspected someone I know suffers from this disorder.
**Disclaimer: I’m not qualified to give medical advice! This is just my opinion only!
Frimmel 9
While we are ultimately personally responsible, our behavior does not exist in a vacuum. What might Stephani be doing to make him moody, insecure and distrustful? What in his job could be making him moody, insecure and distrustful? Sounds like more of the impossible standard of masculinity men are expected to live up to.
Karmic Equation 10
@Frimmel
“While we are ultimately personally responsible, our behavior does not exist in a vacuum. What might Stephani be doing to make him moody, insecure and distrustful?”
Moody, insecure, and distrust are self-inflicted and self-correctable, and depending on severity, may require professional help.
No one can *make* another person moody if that person is not prone to moodiness. Insecurities are self-inflicted…No one can MAKE you insecure, you FEEL insecure. You have to own your own feelings.
Distrust, granted, can be caused by someone’s actions, but if he distrusts Stephani herself, he shouldn’t be in a relationship with her. Why is he with her? I would assume that his distrust is of other people and NOT Stephani, which is nothing that that Stephani can help with. But if SHE doesn’t like that quality in HIM, she shouldn’t be with him. Different side of the same coin.
Dawn 11
At the tender age of 22 I married a man that was safe and reliable. I was riddled with doubt even then. What I got was a man who was not passionate about me, or us, or our life. He was emotionally unavailable. He was a lot of things…that my gut told me would not make a good marriage.
I would say follow your gut. After 17 years of marriage, I finally had all I could take. It was too long, but better late than never. What I have learned is that my gut knows way more than my head and my heart and my libido.
Follow your gut. Even if it seems pety or superficial, those doubts are there for a reason. They mean you won’t be happy. If you’ve tried to “work” around them, find a way to embrace them, and you are till not happy, chances are you never will be.
Karl R 12
Stephani said: (original post)
“I’m afraid that the things that irritate me (his mood swings, insecurities, social ineptness and trust issues) will be the ones to break us apart in the future.”
Everyone has irritating behaviors. Every time I encountered an irritating behavior in a serious girlfriend, I asked myself one question:
“Is this the kind of irritation I can easily live with for the rest of my life?”
If I were in your shoes, here’s how I would evaluate the specific examples you gave:
Insecurities:
It depends what he’s insecure about. My wife is a little insecure about her dancing. It took years before she decided to compete at the amateur level. She’s hypercritical of the way she looks in the YouTube video we put up (so friends could see us dancing). That’s not a problem.
If she was insecure about our relationship (for example, worrying about me being attracted to my dance partners), that would be a constant source of friction.
Trust issues:
This is the same as insecurities. If he’s slow to trust other people, that could be irritating. If he still has difficulty trusting you (after two years), then that’s a whole different story. There’s nothing you can do to make him trust you, or to make him feel secure about how you feel towards him.
Socially inept:
On the other hand, I can’t think of any kind of socially inept behavior that’s inherently destructive toward a relationship. If you decide it’s a problem, then it will be a problem. If you decide that it’s no big deal, then it will be no big deal.
Mood swings:
This one depends on a lot of things you didn’t mention. Do his mood swings include anger? If he’s swinging between happy and depressed, there’s nothing inherently dangerous (except possibly to himself). But anger has the potential to be a lot more dangerous to you.
If anger is part of the equation, how does he express it? If he’s just verbally venting about his frustrations (the DMV, airport security, rude cabbies, politics), that’s just an irritation. If there’s any kind of violence or threat involved, then you need to end the relationship for your own safety.
If threats/violence aren’t part of the equation, then it really comes down to how you (and your boyfriend) react to each other’s flaws. The response to the flaws is actually more important than the flaws themselves.
Sunflower 13
I think too many people get way to granular on this blog…trust, mood swings? I have mood swings. It’s called menopause. And I don’t have a farm girl mentality. Does that automatically make me unworthy? You have to listen to your heart. Evan summed it up in the last paragraph. If you feel like your life would be better with the person rather than with out, it’s a no brainer. We don’t live in a Eutopian world people :)
Angie 14
@ Frimmel 9
Oh, no no no no no! Moody, insecure, socially inept and distrustful are not Stephani’s fault, and they are terrible flaws! I dated a person who was moody, insecure and distrustful. To him, the relationship was a prize. If you wikipedia “attachment theory” it can show why people develop insecurities, but just because someone is insecure doesn’t necessarily mean that they have to manifest it by being moody or openly distrustful. Unless Stephani had done something like cheat and he took her back, he has no reason to distrust her. (To be honest, I wouldn’t totally bet that the “devoted” and “generous” aren’t separate traits from the “insecure”).
@ Stephani
Is he MEAN when he is moody? Is he MEAN when he is insecure and distrustful? Does his relationship or social anxieties impede upon what should be a normal life? What does he do when he gets moody? (Is he scary?) If he got therapy, would your doubts be alleviated, or is the relationship past the point of no return? Does he support you, or does his social ineptness and insecurities get in the way of you leading your “normal” life (therefore, he doesn’t support you by default)? Does he guilt you?
@ Evan
Unsure if it’s just my computer, but the linked article wasn’t working? Thanks!
Soul 15
I hope the OP will hear EMK’s advice….OP: you are the only one who can decide, and mood swings etc. are not necessarily deal breakers, it all depends on YOU and how you react/feel about them.
In fact, I wholeheartedly agree with Karl R #12, who provides a smart and nuanced opinion and Sunflower #13.
Warning: We are talking about people’s life and future here, real human beings….. I do not understand why so many people feel entitled to give black or white advice to the OP when:
1) they clearly make judgments based on their own experience (and we all know how misleading this could be).
2) They do not know the OP, nor do they know the boyfriend!!!!!!!
Frimmel 16
She’s come here seeking advice as to whether she should dump him. How does that not creep out in other ways that would be noticeable to him? Perhaps he feels insecure in the relationship because the relationship is in fact not secure. That puts it on him to ‘man-up’ and make the relationship secure by taking responsibility for her feelings?
As another hypothetical, if there is some sort of social situation that he doesn’t care for or ever handle well but she continually insists on putting him in it and then is disappointed or angry or upset or pouty that he didn’t handle it to her satisfaction? Wouldn’t he get more anxious or moody leading up to them? More insecure and awkward because he can’t ever get it right? How then could he trust her if she kept doing that to him?
helene 17
My view is that if you are having serious “will I/ won’t I?” issues about making a long term commitment to a partner, then irrespective of the particular “flaws” themselves, that is an important sign. Generally when you love someone and want to be with them, the pull to be WITH them is MUCH stronger than that… its not a sort of ho hum, its about 50/50 here, what do I do? type of scenario. None of us are perfect, and none of our partners are perfect, but even so, even seeing the flaws, when we want to commit to someone we feel overwhelmingly drawn to do so. This is important because there are so many factors that can conspire to pull couples apart – time pressures, kids, work, money worries – that unless you do have an overwhelming desire to be with that person then its difficult to see how you’re going to weather all that. Sometimes, its all that holds you together.I think you need that, in a relationship – anyone who thinks otherwise hasn’t been married for very long!
Eva 18
Perhaps his ‘mood swings, insecurities and trust issues’ have to do with the fact that he senses you have doubts and is afraid of losing you?
He has all the qualities of a long-term partner, so don’t give up so easily.
Stephani 19
Im the OP and many thanks, Evan, for posting my question on your blog.
You see, this boyfriend of mine has always had dualistic personality (for any of you horoscope fans, he is a Gemini). One, that he spent most of is life being, is this go-getter type, egotistical and pretty inflexible. After the divorce, a few failed relationships and a mid-life crisis, he spent a lot of time self reflecting, going to therapy and growing to be a lot more spiritual, mature, willing to admit his wrongs and to change.
Alas, changes like that are usually not permanent and are always a work in progress, requiring efforts. He fall back into the “old mode” periodically, and his old self shines through. Makes it hard for me to enjoy being with him and imagine signing on the dotted line. On a plus side, we have q very close connection, with lots of love and affection and great communications.
Insecurities:
He is insecure as in a “chip on his shoulder” type of the way. Growing up with a physically abusive father who kept telling his kids they would never amount to anything (all other kids really didn’t)… And being a completely self-made educated man with a career and wide spectrum of interests, from photography to spirituality, he still have quite a few self esteem issues. Which prompts him to trying to prove himself and talk to anyone who would listen, showing off his knowledge. In our relationships, he views me as well above him in looks and intelligence, so he constantly questions my reasons for being with him. Additionally, his verbal torrents make him look socially unaware and annoying, and he is painfully aware of that as well. He says he feels being/looking stupid a lot of times.
Trust issues: he has hard time leaving his baggage from the previous relationships where he had felt unappreciated and/or cheated upon.I should probably have clarified that the trust issues are not a result of any of my behavior., I’ve never given him any. Every time we have a disagreement or a fight, he immediately thinks we are breaking up.
Mood swings: i should clarify that he is never, ever angry at me or dangerous. The moods change from cheerful to grumpy, where he becomes irritable, judgmental and negative, complaining and unreasonable. He wold later always apologize and try to make it up.
One thing I didn’t mention, which didn’t really bother me until it was mentioned here. He takes life too seriously, and we never laugh. I mean, he cannot joke.
I try and have been trying to convince myself to be less judgmental toward him and practice acceptance. The rationale being is that he is, fundamentally, a loving and very affectionate man. And, btw, he tries hard in bed and there is great chemistry. I know that if i were to leave this relationship and start a new one eventually…. that new guy will have some OTHER flaws/limitations.
Angie 20
@ Stephani
You know, I was in your situation before and I told myself the same thing regarding being non-judgmental and accepting. I thought “Everyone has flaws. Everyone has had painful experiences”, etc, but there is a difference between being nonjudgmental about why someone is the way they are and allowing just anyone in your life.
It’s hard, because you haven’t done anything wrong, and it really is a self-fulfilling prophecy for him. If you break up, he will blame you and all the women who’ve spurned him before. He will blame all these things it appears he is already laying the groundwork to blame. He has had some harder-than-average knocks, but it is really his responsibility to bring his A-game and not play the victim.
Also, have you thought about having children with this man? You said a “midlife crisis” so I wasn’t really sure if you already had grown children and were coming together later in life, or if you are planning to start a family. I’ve grown up in this environment (which is why, when I was younger, I felt empathy towards guys who threw pity parties for themselves, and now it’s a total dealbreaker). My father, who has many wonderful qualities, used me and my siblings to appease his insecurities. I wouldn’t want that behavior projected on my own children.
I hear his excuses, but would you accept his behavior if he didn’t have so many excuses? If he wasn’t abused-as-a-child, cheated-on, divorcee, etc etc, would you still accept him and be nonjudgmental? Is this man even trying to get therapy for all these negative experiences? And seriously, I am not one to downplay the pain of child abuse. I know that it can cause people a lot of pain in life, but I don’t see how it’s possible to have a healthy relationship with a man who is stuck 5-10-30 years into the pain of his own past.
I don’t know. If you really do love him, I would just say every time he complains, “That wasn’t me. Don’t take it out on me.”
Heather K 21
People with doubts having a higher rate of divorce – that’s likely just because people who doubt things whether rightfully or not are less accepting of their circumstances and less satisfied with the life they have and more desirous to constantly pursue other things in life. People who don’t doubt their lives so much – even if they should be doubting their life – are more likely to stay in the same place for a longer time.
As far as having ‘gut feelings’ that something isn’t right – practically ‘gut feelings’ don’t really tell us much even for our own objective wisdom. Having doubts and feeling that something isn’t right because you’re afraid that your boyfriend’s trust issues and insecurities are not something that will go away and you aren’t sure that being in a relationship with someone who has these issues is a great recipe for a loving success – that’s a more realistic and practical way to think about it. That’s a real reason for not wanting to be with someone long term. I tend to think that people who just have ‘feelings’ that something isn’t right are either princes and princesses who cannot be pleased and are looking for some measure of perfection that doesn’t exist. Or people who have ‘feelings’ that something isn’t right are having these feelings because of a real deep issue and they just need to tune into themselves better and put their finger on what it is and then decide if it’s something that can be worked with or not.
Goldie 22
Wow, taking life seriously and never joking or laughing would be a deal-breaker for me. I’m not kidding. Life is too hard as it is; if I had to go through it with a solemn face and a somber mood, that would just suck all will to live straight out of me. YMMV, of course.
Trust issues as Stephani has listed them, do not sound as bad as I thought. I was thinking along the lines of being unreasonably jealous on a regular basis, snooping, checking SO’s phone and email, that type of thing.
One thing that bothers me. If he’s afraid to have a disagreement or a fight, then he’ll do everything in his power to avoid having a disagreement or a fight. If he has any problems, any unhappiness with anything in your relationship, he’ll just keep his mouth shut about it till he cannot keep it shut anymore. You’ll be thinking everything is okay, and then one day all of a sudden he’ll explode. Hmm, come to think of it, that might explain at least some of his mood swings!
Bottom line, based on what I am reading here, I would not make any binding commitment to this man. He sounds like a ticking bomb. Probably a great guy, but, from Stephani’s description, sounds like a pretty terrible partner. Sorry. True, every guy will have some flaws. But there are flaws that I can live with (maybe because they match my own flaws, heh heh) and then there are flaws that I know I cannot put up with even for a day. Cannot speak for Stephani, but I wouldn’t last long with this guy.
marymary 23
Steph
I think never laughing together is the biggest problem. That wouldn’t work for me. A man doesn’t have to be a comedian or a smartass but most troubles are more bearable and problems more solvable if we can see the humour in it.
Connie 24
Do NOT marry an insecure man. I made that mistake. They will never believe you. I went to my friend’s baby shower and he accused me of cheating. I said call my friend…he said “your fried would lie for you”. Another time I took my daughter to open a bank account and it took an hour. Again, he accused me of having an affair. I’m pretty sure he had a GPS system hidden in my car. He would just show up and run into me at Starbucks or the grocery store. He followed me and stalked me. We ended up divorced in 3 years. I thought he wouldn’t be so insecure once he had married me, but it got worse. RUN as fast as you can.
Karl R 25
Angie said: (#14)
“Moody, insecure, socially inept and distrustful are not Stephani’s fault, and they are terrible flaws!”
“Fault” is not a particularly useful word in this situation. Stephani’s boyfriend is the way he is. He is unlikely to change much.
Every boyfriend/girlfriend is going to have flaws. If we want a permanent relationship, we have to accept a relationship with a flawed individual. Either Stephani can accept/tolerate the flaws her boyfriend has, or she can’t. That’s the way she is, and she’s unlikely to change much.
Stephani said: (#19)
“The moods change from cheerful to grumpy, where he becomes irritable, judgmental and negative, complaining and unreasonable.”
When I read this portion of your post to my wife, she commented that it sounded exactly like her. While I agreed with her assessment, she noticed the similarity a lot faster than I did, because it’s not that big of a deal for me. I just ignore the complaining, unreasonable statements, judgments, irritability and negativity until her mood improves.
The insecurity and lack of trust would be harder for me to deal with. The lack of joking around would be a dealbreaker for me. It’s part of who I am, and I’m not likely to change. But those assessments are based on who I am, not who you are.
Angie said: (#14)
“If you really do love him, I would just say every time he complains, ‘That wasn’t me. Don’t take it out on me.’”
In my experience, that kind of response has a reasonable chance of escalating the issue. If I don’t respond to the complaints, it deescalates the issue.
Stephani said: (#19)
“I know that if i were to leave this relationship and start a new one eventually… that new guy will have some OTHER flaws/limitations.”
That’s correct. You need someone whose flaws and limitations are tolerable (in your opinion) -and- someone who will tolerate your own flaws and limitations. Maybe that’s your current boyfriend. If not, it will have to be someone else.
Gina 26
Stephani,
Don’t marry this guy because deep down inside you will not be happy with him in the long run. Let him go and find someone whose flaws you can live with, and someone who can live with yours. It doesn’t make you a bad person…just a wiser and happier one!
Some other Steve 27
I can’t remember a time when I looked back and thought that a nagging gut feeling about a relationship amounted to nothing.
Michelle 28
This is the issue as I see it, as women, we’re generally more emotional than men. If our men are more emotional than us, it doesn’t give us a warm and fuzzy feeling of being safe with him. Like we have to support him more emotionally, that’s outside of our feminine ‘zone’. Obviously if it’s an isolated event that happens w/ the man, i.e. a death. It’s another if it’s an ongoing character trait of him.
I just went through this with a man, and this was one of the things that really made me hold back for multiple reasons.
I want a man who can stand in love with me during MY emotional waves.
nathan 29
Michelle, when I read your comment, what I see is the stereotypical manbox view of men. It’s the view that men are supposed to make women feel safe and warm and cared for all the time, but that we, ourselves, are almost always calm, in control, with our difficult feelings in check. Do you ever wonder why so many men these days have heart attacks before they’re 60, are obsessed with guns, display only anger, can’t connect with women on an emotional level, or any number of other unsavory characteristics? Your comment suggests that you don’t care much about the emotional needs of men.
I think the OP is right to wonder about her guy because he’s got multiple negative issues going on. The lack of humor and trust issues alone might be enough to move on. But women who want healthy, long lasting relationships also need to stop expecting men who are always strong, always on top of their game, and who are only rarely “emotional.” You’re living in a fantasy world no better than the men who are chasing after super models into their 50s. Men who are rarely emotional are rarely warm and loving either. We all would do well to seek more balance. If the OP has been questioning this relationship for awhile now, it’s probably time for action. What that action is exactly is up to her.
marymary 30
I agree with Nathan. a man can,t support me emotionally if he,s not emotional himself and that does include vulnerability.
Karl R 31
nathan said: (#29)
“It’s the view that men are supposed to make women feel safe and warm and cared for all the time, but that we, ourselves, are almost always calm, in control, with our difficult feelings in check.”
I think you’re taking a one-sided view of the situation. If you’ll reread this post, there’s a bit more of a balanced perspective.
If Michelle (#28) wants a man who is always calm, stoic and in control, she can get one. But that kind of man won’t be sharing his feelings or validating her feelings. As long as she’s willing to accept the drawbacks along with the benefits, she can have a good relationship with a calm/stoic man.
Similarly, marymary (#30) can have a good relationship with an emotionally available man, as long as she’s willing to accept that he won’t be unflappable when there is chaos and/or turmoil.
Stephani 32
I have an update. I tried talking to my boyfriend about my doubts after a particularly crappy weekend together (with him being negative, unattentive, generally disagreeable and making negative comments about practically everything). As soon as we parted ways on Monday (we don’t live together) he started texting with apologies and self depreciating comments about being a bad boyfriend and being stressed out. Conversation detiorioracted pretty fast to him accusing me of not being accepting. He kept asking me if we are breaking up, and I kept saying that I just don’t know. Long story short, he wanted my decision NOW, as he didn’t want to be in suspense over the holidays. When I stopped replying to texts and phone calls, he announced that he is coming over. I called and asked directly to not come, which he ignored. He further accused me of being selfish by not giving me a direct answer, issued me an ultimatum to talk face to face or we’re done. I have challenged him to come over and end things, if he insists. Somehow, he ended up turning around and going home, but not before he texted me that he was 2 minutes away.
Im flabbergasted to day the least. I have asked him to leave me alone for at least 10 days, so I can think this over, even though I don’t see how I can continue on with this display of a temper tantrum, disrespect and plain old craziness. Sorry folks, but even though he is a warm and emotional and loving…. The opposite side of this is too ugly for me. Tell me I’m wrong please.
Angie 33
Men reading this:
I think what perhaps is obvious to women but may not be so to men, is that moody, temperamental men can be frightening. Moody, temperamental women are merely irritating. It was a relief to see Stephani added that he doesn’t direct his anger towards her or act dangerously.
Honestly, though, I don’t think Stephani’s boyfriends characteristics are “flaws”. Flaws are one of those things that bother some but not others. (I don’t know, I think of things like often runs late or is overly chatty or watches too much tv… or perhaps not having a sense of humor… as a flaw). ”Low self esteem and takes it out on others” is not a flaw. Yes, this man has had some hard knocks, but if he blames his divorce totally on his ex, etc, then he just isn’t being a grown up. If blaming every bad thing in his life on others, and harping on it endlessly is what he wants to do, I don’t really think he is relationship material. This is the kind of thing a person can overcome. It’s being mislabeled a “flaw”.
I get the whole “I don’t want to be judgmental” thing, but Stephani, you aren’t a therapist. And a therapist wouldn’t let him off that easy. A therapist would most likely BE judgmental and tell him he is making excuses for his own bad behavior (which, he is).
Karl R 34
Stephani said: (#32)
“even though he is a warm and emotional and loving…. The opposite side of this is too ugly for me.”
Even abusive men are nice guys 90% of the time. It’s the other 10% that makes them intolerable.
marymary 35
Karl R
He is in fact very unflappable. By “emotional” I don’t mean drama or moodiness or panic or withdrawal, I see those as masks that hide emotion or unhelpful coping strategies rather than genuine emotion. I mean he understands his emotions and other people’s. He’s not embarrassed by them, he doesn’t ignore them and he can read them. I wouldn’t want a relationship with a man who doesn’t “get” emotions.
Michelle
I disagree that women are more emotional than men. I think women may have a higher capacity for talking about emotions or for expressing them, and some seem to relish drama. It doesn’t mean we feel more than men do.
Steph
Lots of people break up over the holidays. I think that’s where you are heading. What I like most about my relationship is that we get on well and neither of us has to “put up and shut up”. We’re not perfect but we work well together, and that’s what it’s all about. He’s easy to be with.
Michelle 36
#31, kindof, I never said for a man not to be emotional or not have an emotional side or stuff down his feelings or be stoic, how fun would that be? And I didn’t say ALWAYS or NEVER. I’m saying he can’t be MORE emotional than me the majority of time. By default, a woman is more emotional than a man, if I feel like I’m consistently having to support HIM emotionally (being the guardrails in the relationship), that is not attractive to me and I would venture to guess, most women. In my world, there are attraction factors that differ between men and women–men and women are equal, and different. John Gray and David Deida both talk very welll about this. I look at over emotionalism, in adult men and women, as having poor boundaries, it’s tiresome.
#32, a great way to ‘test’ someone is to observe their behavior after you have to tell them NO. He has serious maturity issues, I just came out of a relationship with a man like this (luckily it didn’t last very long), so I totally understand what you’re talking about. You dodged a bullet my dear, you have your answer, and now you can start the process of creating a new life for yourself. You were with him a long time, so I’m sure this will be difficult, and you CAN do it, there is no alternative. All the best of luck and I admire your courage.
Alyssa 37
just my 2 cents here, Stephanie, but cut the guy some slack. He wants to marry you and you are telling him you need TEN DAYS alone to think it over- that would send me over the edge, too, and I am not a particularly dramatic person.
Truth be told, if I were you, I would put this blog down and really sit with myself. Everyone here speaks from his/her own experience, which may not reflect your own necessarily. No one can give you the answer but yourself, and I think it is enormously unfair to expect your man to just leave you alone while you decide if you want to be with him or not. In my book, being in a relationship that is possibly on the verge of marriage means you accept one another’s ‘temper tantrums’ from time to time (so long as they don’t include emotional or physical abuse) and perhaps the fact that you are so put off by it is telling. But maybe this is the the way out you’ve been looking for?
When faced with a big decision I always remind myself- there is no right or wrong here, only what is right or wrong for ME.
Best of luck to you!
Allison 38
Stephani- you are not wrong. He’s negative, deeply insecure, and prone to temper tantrums. There’s better out there!
Angie 39
@32 Stephani I submitted my post before I saw your update.
You don’t have to “accept” anyone, especially someone who owns up to being a bad boyfriend and blaming it on “stress”. (Look, unless the stress is because some tragic event happened, he is responsible for keeping daily stress in line). Why would anyone date someone who is not even giving their own best? This man needs to grow up, and it isn’t your responsibility to guide him there. In fact, he is with you because you are so accommodating by being “nonjudgmental”.
You can be nonjudgmental regarding how people act in their own lives, but you should be 100% judgmental about whether that behavior is acceptable in your own. ”Loving someone” and “Not judging” someone are different things, as well. Grown men aren’t entitled to unconditional love. I was going to say, “This is only for your children” but maybe he is acting out since he didn’t receive that unconditional love as a child and now is trying to relive his life in reverse, expecting it now. He needs to figure out his own issues. Don’t date someone because you feel bad for them.
Frimmel 40
Stephani, you aren’t being accepting. He can feel and act the way you want him to when you want him to or it’s over. He quite correctly is upset that you’re thinking of breaking up with him over his inability to always feel the way that you like. You’re telling him he is wrong to be upset by the fact that your feelings are the most important ones and he’d better get to feeling the way you want him to when you want him to. You don’t want to see him until you can figure out whether or not you’re going to break up with him or he can take the responsibility and break up for you.
That way you wouldn’t have been responsible would you? That way you’d have been able to rationalize it as his moodiness and his fault and you’d have your justification for pulling the trigger on the break up. But he’s crossed you up by turning around and saying he’s not going to break up with you. Now you’re stuck with trying to find another way to make him responsible for your decision.
As much as this isn’t the sort of Christmas present I’d wish on anyone just break up with him. He’s well rid of you.
Goldie 41
#32, okay this is scary. Time to rip the band-aid off. Sorry that it had to happen right before the holidays, but his behavior is unacceptable in a partner/husband. Coming over after you asked him not to, getting all the way to your house then turning around, just crosses the line, and is scary, weird, and stalkerish in my opinion. Coming over after you asked him not to is in particular a red flag. Good luck!
PS. I would probably also avoid seeing him in person again, or breaking up in person. Or, do it in a public place, not at a secluded park, not at your place or his. After the last update I’m just not sure if the guy is safe to be around. I admit I speak from negative experience (not mine) and may be overreacting, but thought I had to throw this out there.
Kathleen 42
My impression of the original question is that Stephanie is not excited and enthusiastic about moving forward with this boyfriend This ambivalence at this stage says it all to me. Don’t discount your intuition!!!!
I can’t imagine the misery of life walking on eggshells around a moody guy
Frimmel 43
At Angie in 33. No, moody temperamental women are frightening. Everyone is just more tolerant of and willing to make excuses for them.
Michelle 44
#35, agreed, I’m using the term more as a verb than a noun. I never said men don’t FEEL the same emotions. And I agree that women tend to be more verbal and outward showing of our emotions. Like Karl talked about, this is ideal, a man who does not make an already emotional situation worse. That doesn’t mean Karl doesn’t have any emotions or doesn’t occassionally have his own outbursts, and I bet they are a lot less often than this wife.
I would also add a very big factor, however, and that’s also hormonal differences between men and women which cause some of this as well. I’m sure someone out there is going to dispute that…especially a man who has no idea on how hormones affect a woman.
I don’t know what kind of people everyone knows in their lives, but in my world, the well adjusted men I know and my son who is 20, all are not as ‘emotional’. These men tend not to get riled up over things that women think are important or get riled up about. Men tend not to hold grudges or gossip, which many women do. When the kids are doing something, the father usually isn’t as fearful as many mothers are. I could go on and on…
Men who want their women to be non emotional, no outbursts, no ‘drama’, no crying, etc., good luck with that! Talk to any man who has been married a long time, he’ll tell you the truth. And the best marriages are the men that understand how to deal with this, ask them what they do when that happens. He has to learn and/or understand how to deal with the waves of emotion from a woman (and the man is the riverbanks
, when to recognize she’s invading his boundaries or reaching an edge and when it’s her just venting or having a mood change. That does NOT mean she can be uncaring or unfeeling when he’s having emotional ups and downs…felt I had to make that clear since reading between the lines seems to be tough on this blog.
nathan 45
Frimmel – dude isn’t respecting her boundaries. Period. Even if she could have handled it better, the main issue is that he’s being aggressive and pushing for his way instead of stopping, taking a breath, seeking a compromise, or some other form of “working together” and/or respecting each other – which is what healthy couples do.
I do agree with you that Angie’s assessment on moody, temperamental women is false. When anyone is really unstable, it’s scary. But I don’t get that sense from what Stephani writes, nor how she frames things. What I see in comment 32 is that the boyfriend kept pushing and she eventually dug her heels in. A pretty natural response. Yes, not totally accepting, but not the biggest deal in the world.
Michelle 36 – I disagree with you, and John Gray, whose views on men and women are caricatures at best. If we want to talk about gender differences, it’s much more that men and women – as groups – tend to display emotion differently. Or that difficult emotions will come out at different times, be triggered by different events, or different parts of events. The idea that women are more emotional not only is a long standing sexist trope that diminishes the strength and skills of women, but it also reinforces the idea that men are supposed to be almost robotic, only breaking down under the worst of circumstances. Even then, there’s a lot of social pressure to “be a man.”
You are absolutely correct though in suggesting emotionalism is immaturity, and to point out that there are both men and women who display it. The thing is that women tend to get more slack cut for them then men do around “getting emotional.” Perhaps Stephani hasn’t cut her boyfriend enough slack in the past, which has contributed to the state of things today. But unlike a few others here, I don’t see that as a main cause of the troubles they’re experiencing. And it’s just as likely that she cut him too much slack in the past, and now is experiencing what comes when some basic lines are drawn in the sand.
K 46
@Michelle, I agree with you. Your views may not be PC and may not be supported by science (no idea as I have not researched this), but it is what I have observed my whole life. What you say holds to true for most men and women I know. Obviously not all. Maybe we are dealing with different people than others. I’m extremely close to three men in my life (friends and family) and I know they would agree with your view as well. Obviously I work hard at not showing the emotional side at work, but outside of that I do display my emotions more then the men in my life. It works for us.
Frimmel 47
Re: Nathan, in 45
Is he, Nathan? How is not going over not respecting her boundries? We only have Stephani’s side. You said in #29, “It’s the view that men are supposed to make women feel safe and warm and cared for all the time, but that we, ourselves, are almost always calm, in control, with our difficult feelings in check.” You don’t think some of that attitude is going on with Stephani? Judging by #29 it sure sounds that way to me.
Aren’t standing up for yourself, and going after what you want supposed to be desirable qualities? Isn’t that the other side of the coin that Evan is always talking about? This quality you want comes at the price of this quality that you don’t?
I find it unlikely the boyfriend is blameless. I also find it unlikely that she is blameless.
nathan 48
“Men tend not to hold grudges or gossip, which many women do.” You seriously don’t know enough men if you believe this. Again, it might not look the same as what women do, but I can assure you that plenty of men both gossip and hold grudges. Especially the latter. The petty grudges of men are behind all of kinds of backstabbing, violent behavior.
Kathleen 49
Michelles 44 comment that men don’t hold grudges is absurd
Do you ever watch the news?????
Karmic Equation 50
@nathan 48 and @Kathleen 49
I agree with Michelle on the “men don’t hold grudges” — I know that one of the things I admire about men is that they can throw punches at each other for five minutes and then shake hands and go have a few drinks.
If women were to fight? Wow. No drinks afterwards, that’s for sure. They will be enemies for life. Probably plotting against the other’s next of kin!
“Males battle for supremacy; females battle to the death.” Dogs are like this, and I’m pretty sure wild animals are too. We’re human animals…
@nathan
“Especially the latter. The petty grudges of men are behind all of kinds of backstabbing, violent behavior.”
If we believe in the alpha-dominance theory, I think the beta males are the ones who hold the grudges and behind the backstabbing and violent behavior. They can’t win outright, so they try to win subversively.
Fusee 51
Thank you, Stephani, for coming back with more details and updates. It’s always hard to make an opinion from a short letter. I’m sorry that you’re dealing with a relationship crisis at this time of the year : (
It looks like a case of a man who is not quite functional yet for a long-term relationship… He might reach higher levels of functionality later on, but it does not look like it’s going to happen in your timeline. You are reporting some more serious character flaws (lack of self-control, lack of humility, etc) and lack of relationship skills that make me skeptical that this man can be a good husband at this point.
For me the decisive factor between “issues” and “deal-breakers” are: severity, frequency, ability to acknowledge them and take responsability, non-defensiveness when requested to improve, and progression over time. An issue can remain a simple issue when dealt with proactively and consistently, or become a deal-breaker when unmanaged and out of control.
My boyfriend and I have been able to navigate the issues that popped up so far because 1. they are not out of control and do not damage our love and respect to one another, 2. we ackowledge them and make ammend when needed, 3. we make requests to one another for improvment when necessary for the health/future of our relationship, 4. we follow through and make adequate progress in a reasonable timeframe, 5. after the fact we re-enact some of our “episodes” just for fun and laugh about ourselves, 6. we keep expressing our appreciation for everything else that is awesome as well as our love to one another in various forms.
Michelle 52
Thank you K. #46 You know, we don’t need millions of dollars of studies to see what’s obvious, for myself, based on 15 years of marriage, lots of dating and successfully raising 2 human beings, one a boy and one a girl, and a strong desire to embark on a path to learn about men, women & relationships after my divorce. Last I checked, John Gray is a PhD, so I’m thinking he does has a modicum of credibility.
Hey, we’re all entitled to our opinion, points of view and beliefs.
Nathan, I’m sensing you’re an angry person and/or are influenced by a lot of angry people, especially men, who sound like they act like women. Just my opinion of course.
marymary 53
Nathan doesn’t sound at all angry to me.
as for men not holding grudges, well, they do kill each other more than women do.
Karmic Equation 54
@marymary 53
Men do more of the violent killing. If you watch enough ID channel, women do the subversive killings, via poisoning, most often because that is their preferred method, whereas men seem much more blood thirsty.
And these (men or women) killings are rarely from “grudges” but for gain of some kind: freedom or money or over a man for women and respect or power for men or for a woman.
Goldie 55
Nathan is one of the least angry people I’ve ever known (if only virtually). And I tend to agree with him on this one. I have really low tolerance for this viewpoint prevalent in our society that men are tough beings without emotions, whereas women are emotional creatures ruled by their feelings. It doesn’t do anyone any favors. Men are expected to hide their feelings till they explode, while women are not being taken seriously. Yes, strong silent guys and emotional women do exist. But not every guy is strong and silent, and not every woman is emotional, nor do they have to be.
Goldie 56
Sorry for the double post: re #52: “men who sound like they act like women”? What does this even mean? What do these men do, breastfeed? Or is it maybe that they act like human beings with feelings, but, because they’re men, they’re not allowed to?
Evan Marc Katz 57
I’ve been trying to stay out of this, but even if the stereotype of women being more emotional than men isn’t always true, isn’t it often true? No one is saying ALL men are like this, ALL women are like that. You would never be able to make any statement about men and women, if that were the case. But I’m quite sure that either biologically or societally, women are encouraged to discuss their feelings a lot more than men are. And I’m one of those guys who is sensitive and talks a lot – but it’s much more stereotypical woman behavior than man behavior. No?
Goldie 58
Evan, yes, historically, men are being encouraged to be tough and women are being encouraged to be emotional. But it is not necessarily a good thing. Or even an accurate thing, since things are changing pretty rapidly in this area. When men worked manual jobs and women stayed at home with the kids, men ran the country and women couldn’t even vote for any of them, living up to the stereotype was much easier for them than it is now. I look around me today and see a lot of sensitive men and tough women; both appear pretty well-adjusted and happy with their love lives. Sounds to me like John Gray is behind the times.
The stereotype of emotional woman in particular is my pet peeve. At one point in my now-defunct marriage, my husband had a habit of responding to all my complaints/suggestions with “Are you hungry?”, “Are you tired?” etc. It’s like he didn’t believe I could have a legitimate, rational complaint about anything going on in our marriage or household; if I did, it must’ve been my emotions getting the better of me, with me not even being intelligent enough to realize that I was not, in reality, unhappy with whatever the issue — I just needed food or sleep. Ugh.
marymary 59
I think women doubt themselves more. A woman gets angry, then thinks through why she is angry, whether she should be angry, what the other party is thinking, tries to figure out everyone,s motivation, feels guilty. this in turn makes her even madder, or moody or gossipy.
A man might just think “I,m pissed at x. X is an idiot”.
Yes this is another generalisation.
conversely, men commit suicide more than women do, that,s surely an emotional issue. If men are more violent it,s because they are more angry, an emotion they ARE allowed to have. I believe that anger is the acceptable face of hurt so even that is “emotional”. Men may not be encouraged to talk about their feelings but I think that is changing, and rapidly. It doesn’t mean men don’t have feelings.
i should say that men and women often tell me that I come across as calm and collected. i don,t like drama. It would be odd for me to support the view that women are more erratic, or whatever term one might use.
Serena27 60
I can think of two applicable sayings
1. When someone first shows you who they are, believe them.
2. No one can love you more than you love yourself.
Stephanie, thank you so much for sharing so much about your painful situation. I know how difficult it is to make this decision when you’ve invested so much time already into the relationship. Your boyfriend has shown you, over and over and especially with the last encounter your wrote about, exactly who he is. Your reaction was to step back. You must believe that that is who he will continue to be. No matter how he changes temporarily to try to win you back, at his core, he will not change. That is something he can only do for himself, by himself. Maybe losing you will be the push he needs. He does not love himself very much. He has had a very sad past, and has valid reasons for his struggle, but those are not excuses to treat you poorly, and it is not your responsibility to heal him. No matter how much you try to love him, he wont be able to feel it as long as his own personal demons get in the way.
I wish you the very best!
Tom10 61
I agree Goldie, that nathan’s comments are balanced and not angry.
-
I don’t think it’s particularly useful to discuss which gender is more emotional, or who should or shouldn’t express their emotions.
Emotional issues aren’t – or shouldn’t be regarded as – gender specific. It’s ok for people to be upset, angry, depressed etc. but as healthy functioning adults we must recognize that emotional problems belong to each individual, and therefore must be addressed by each individual. I.e. it is incumbent on all adults to assume responsibility for their own emotions. This applies to both angry men and bitter women.
We all have our issues; it’s how we deal with them that counts.
Therefore, I agree with Fusee #51 that Stephani’s boyfriend is currently not a place mentally to be in a mature adult relationship.
Helen 62
Maybe it’s because Goldie and I are older and seasoned (deliciously
) that we seem to agree on a few key points that I’ll summarize here:
1. Stephani’s guy sounds like a creepy, immature, stalker type. Even if he hasn’t turned his moodiness on her, he sounds like he has every potential to do so. Stephani, if you’re reading this, I can’t suggest strongly enough to break off all contact and try never to be with him physically again.
2. I don’t in my heart of hearts believe that there is a difference in emotions in males and females. It’s society that has encouraged one side to be much more expressive of emotions than others. More specifically, it’s American society. If you go to European or Chinese society, you won’t see women acting nearly as emotionally as in the States. The media actively encourage it here.
3. Regardless of what society has made out of us: why is it assumed that being emotional is a bad thing? Even if no one stated this outright in the comments above, it’s clear that that is what most of you are thinking. Maybe being emotional turns out to be a good thing for society as a whole. Karmic’s statement about men killing by violence vs. women killing by poison is neither here nor there. Men commit far more homicides than women do, regardless of the method. Who knows: maybe if they were encouraged to express emotions more, the homicide rate would decrease.
4. To accuse Nathan of being angry and a beta is an ad hominem attack, and again, neither here nor there.
5. Of course men hold grudges. Just enter my world of science, and see how men hate each other and undermine each other for decades because of who stole an idea from whom. Even if the idea turns out to be of minimal importance.
None of this is meant as an attack on men. All this is by way of waying that men and women aren’t as cookie-cutter-typed as some would like to imagine.
Frimmel 63
Goldie at #56
“Or is it maybe that they act like human beings with feelings, but, because they’re men, they’re not allowed to?”
That’s exactly it. Men are only allowed ‘appropriate’ emotions at ‘appropriate’ times. I point to the far greater rate at which men kill themselves as evidence of the value we place on how men feel. I recommend Warren Farrell’s “Why Men Are the Way They Are” which explains it much better than I can.
Michelle 64
Fascinating…I figured there was something that was being triggered individually by my post. Considering what is being said I wrote isn’t even close to what I wrote, and what I wrote is pretty much common knowledge and not radical at all. If a woman is turned on and attracted to a man who has consistent and frequent mood swings, then good for her and best of luck. For most women, however, we desire a man who is not in their feminine state most of the time (just like men are not attracted to women who are in their masculine state most of the time, there’s just no polarity there to create attraction).
This is all I was re-iterating as being a norm and celebrating a man who recognizes how to handle women’s waves of emotion. What’s the saying, ‘when mom’s/the woman’s happy, everyone is happy’?
“The moods change from cheerful to grumpy, where he becomes irritable, judgmental and negative, complaining and unreasonable.”
When I read this portion of your post to my wife, she commented that it sounded exactly like her. While I agreed with her assessment, she noticed the similarity a lot faster than I did, because it’s not that big of a deal for me. I just ignore the complaining, unreasonable statements, judgments, irritability and negativity until her mood improves
Goldie 65
@ Michelle #64:
“If a woman is turned on and attracted to a man who has consistent and frequent mood swings, then good for her and best of luck.”
That’s a strange conclusion. I don’t think any woman on here said that they like frequent mood swings in a man. Likewise, I don’t think any man likes being subjected to frequent mood swings in a woman. Personally I think that, as adults, with jobs and families, we all have a responsibility to keep our shit together, or get help if we can’t. Our kids would have pretty dysfunctional childhoods if they couldn’t predict their mother’s mood from one moment to the next. I’m willing to cut teenagers of both genders some slack, but everyone else, please be civil. (I have two sons, ages 17 and 20. Wanna talk about mood swings? Ask me what they were like between ages 13 and 16.)
As someone who used to belong to a Greek Orthodox church for many years, even the Orthodox church teaches people, both men and women, to keep a clear head and not to act out on every feeling and mood that strikes them. Both men and women are called upon to be equally “sober”. Interesting how a 2000 year old religion sounds more “politically correct” (heh) than the fairly recent Mars/Venus stuff.
“For most women, however, we desire a man who is not in their feminine state most of the time”
It kind of rubs me the wrong way that being unable to behave like a mature adult is being referred to as “feminine state”. That’s pretty offensive to women.
Want to add, I’ve dated all kinds of men, from the strong silent type (my ex was one) to what has been referred here as feminine guys – ones that make an effort to keep in touch with their feelings, chatter, gossip, sing and dance when they’re happy, cry at movies, trade cake recipes with their girlfriends. And I’m here to report that none of those things make a man less manly. A man can do all those things and still be reliable, supportive, and all other things that are generally expected of a man. Also, the strong silent type can just as well experience emotions, mood swings, hold a grudge, yell, give his partner the silent treatment… all of this while denying that he has any feelings at all. Meh, not my type.
marymary 66
Helen
I agree that it’s cultural (isn’t everything)? I’m chinese and neither men or woman will let their feelings just hang out. Women even go through menopause without much fuss (some put it down to soy). I’m not saying it’s a good thing. It’s just different and indicates it’s not so cut and dried.
Re 64:
“The moods change from cheerful to grumpy, where he becomes irritable, judgmental and negative, complaining and unreasonable.”
You seem to think this is “feminine” or have I failed to comprehend?
Domestic violence is still mainly perpetrated by men (I know it’s an extreme example, I use it for illustrative purposes). The women’s hostels won’t be full to bursting this Christmas because men have been tolerant, non-judgemental, positive, accepting and reasonable. I doubt the women there will be thinking “I’m here because my husband succumbed to his feminine state”.
One of the volunteers at a woman’s shelter said to me “I don’t know what it is about Christmas! The men go mad!”
Michelle 67
Goldie, we have a fundamental disconnect on attraction between men and women and how that works. This is big picture stuff, not personality traits or experiences growing up, maturity level or societal change/affects, mental illness or exceptions. I believe that men and women are fundamentally different, by design. We compliment each other. We are built differently to serve different purposes. Obviously though, we need each other to fulfill our human purpose, to procreate (please don’t freak out now that I’m saying everyone has to have children, again, big picture). Although we all have masculine & feminine energy, most men have a predominance of masculine energy (doing, acting, giving) and most women have a predominance of feminine energy (being, feeling, receiving). We all have the same hormones in our bodies, and there are differences in predominance in those hormones that help to drive the energy and differences, i.e. men have more testosterone (as an aside, I listened to an NPR radio program that profiled 4 scenarios of how increased or decreased testosterone affected 4 different scenarios–a teenage boy, a woman changing over to a man, a man who had an illness that caused his testosterone to drop dramatically and group of people and picking out which woman tested to have a higher level of testosterone. It was really fascinating and made me realize what affect this hormone has on men and helped me to better understand men.)
I believe the polarity between the masculine & feminine energies is what attracts people to each other. It provides polarity.
I wouldn’t be attracted to a man as you describe: make an effort to keep in touch with their feelings, chatter, gossip, sing and dance when they’re happy, cry at movies, trade cake recipes with their girlfriends. No judgement (can’t say opinion because I’ve never been with a man like this) by me that you and perhaps other women do, to each their own
I say we agree to disagree…and if someone here was able to resonate with what I was saying, or interested in learning a different viewpoint, good on them as my Aussie friends say.
I’m glad Stephani sees this man for who he is…and is making a conscious decision if this works for her or not.
K 68
@Michelle. I already said this, but it did resonate with me. I’m culturally American and ethnically from an Asian country. Either way it fits with my experience and most people I know. Maybe we are in the minority on this site. I come here to see other view points, and will discuss with my friends what others say here.
Karl R 69
Helen said: (#62)
“why is it assumed that being emotional is a bad thing? Even if no one stated this outright in the comments above, it’s clear that that is what most of you are thinking.”
I’m always skeptical of comments that rely on the ability to read minds.
Less emotional people will do better in some situations. More emotional people will do better in others. Regardless of whether someone is more or less emotional, they will self-select towards careers and social situations where the trait they possess is an asset and not a detriment. (And the same is true for those in the middle.) Therefore, nobody will have an unbiased opinion about which is better. Each person instinctively biases their life to match their strengths. Therefore, their perspective will follow suit.
Men women and emotions:
If I say “men are taller than women”, we are all able to recognize that the statement is true (or false) depending on how we view the situation. The variation within each sex is greater than the difference between each sex.
Inherent or environmental differences:
For most people (except those who are simply curious), it doesn’t matter whether the emotional differences women are coded into our genes, or whether they’re instilled into us as a product of our environments. Height is determined by our genitics and our childhood nutrition. But for the woman who wants a man who is at least 5’10″ tall, the only question is whether he is that tall. She doesn’t care why.
The actual differences between men and women:
Studies (collectively) are inconclusive, but they suggest that men and women may be more similar than many people believe -BUT- that there are still many distinct and nuanced differences (including those that cross cultural boundaries).
The good and bad points of John Gray:
John Gray does not write for everyone. He has a target audience: men and women who have difficulties communicating with the opposite sex. To someone who sits near the middle of the spectrum (nathan and Goldie) he will sound like he always uses extreme and inaccurate examples. To his target audience, he sounds like he’s describing them … and the members of the opposite sex whom they have the most difficulty speaking with.
False proof:
Many of the examples used in this thread (homicide, suicide, stress-related disease) are being completely misapplied. Killing another person could be an act of extreme emotion or a cold-blooded elimination of a rival. If you’re assuming that the act has to be inspired by emotion (or the expression of repressed emotions) then you probably sit on the emotional end of the spectrum.
The sober/unflappable person who “gets” emotions:
A person can’t be completely extroverted and completely introverted. A person can be on one end of the spectrum, or the other, or in the middle.
However, regardless of where someone is on the spectrum, there are situations where one is an advantage over the other. In the office, you’ll do better at evaluations if you spend more time working and less time talking. At a party, the social butterflies do better than the wallflowers. Regardless of where I fall on the introverted/extroverted scale, it’s in my best interest to be capable of appearing to have more of both traits than I actually possess (in the appropriate circumstance).
Emotion doesn’t apply here:
I don’t see how emotion even applies to Stephani’s boyfriend. For example, their fight (#32) demonstrates poor conflict-resolution abilities. We’re getting a one-sided version of the incident, so it sounds like the boyfriend is definitely defficient. But if the two of them can’t handle a conflict better than that, then they aren’t going to have a lasting relationship together.
nathan 70
Michelle, K, and anyone else, you surely have every right to believe what you want. And if these ideas help you find a great partner, then more power to you. However, if you choose to move beyond yourself and say you know the truth in a universal sense about gender, relationships, and the rest, expect to be challenged.
Here’s one article questioning Gray’s ideas through the lens of modern neuroscience. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/naveen-jain/men-are-from-mars-so-are-_b_1773533.html I have long rejected the idea that humans need be ruled by our biology, or that our biology is even fixed, and now science is starting to show that we have the very flexibility I’ve personally experienced and witnessed in others. It’s funny that Michelle chose to derail my earlier points by suggesting I’m an “angry” person. The reason it’s funny is because, when I was younger, that was a more accurate label. In fact, Stephani’s boyfriend sounds somewhat like I was less than a decade ago, before years of meditation and yoga practice shifted how I act, and respond. How I process what’s coming and going. And the way I deal with emotions.
This isn’t to say that hormonal differences and other body characteristics are meaningless. It’s more to say that they are only one piece of a complex puzzle, something that doesn’t translate into best selling relationship advice very easily.
Another reason, though, to question views on gender that are highly fixed and scripted is that, over the course of a lifetime, it’s those people who are most flexible and able to develop a wider range of skills and responses that tend to have happier, healthier, and more successful lives and relationships. Some of you might be currently attracted to really manly man alpha type guys, but the same men – if they remain mostly the same for years and decades – are frequently the ones being dumped by disgruntled women who have evolved over time and can’t relate anymore. The same might be said of men who are stereotypically beta and stay too passive across years and decades. The woman who, at 25 or 30, saw this guy as a safe alternative to the abusive, aggressive types they had dated before, often loses interest because the same guy hasn’t developed any “backbone.” I’m saying this because women, by far, are the initiators of divorce. And I tend to think that one of the main reasons is that they have evolved and developed, while their male partners have mostly stayed the same.
Dawn 71
What I can’t stand about the comments on these articles, is that everyone wants to be right.
The author is not happy. It’s really that simple. She should leave not because her partner is wrong or that she is right, or wrong feeling the way that she does. She should leave because she is not happy and it’s not fair to her or to her partner that she stay and try to change her feelings or change who her partner is to make her happy.
The arguing back and forth on this site is ridiculous. It takes away the message that Evan is trying to get all of us to understand.
Karl R 72
I realized that I forgot to complete one of my thoughts from (#69)
The sober/unflappable person who “gets” emotions (continued):
Just like a person won’t be both introverted and extroverted, you won’t find someone who is highly emotional and unemotional simultaneously. You will find people who can act like they have more of each trait when they find it beneficial.
In many cases, this may be sufficient. I’ve found that the ability to act sympathetic toward someone helps them significantly, even if I privately think they’re overreacting to an inconsequential statement. I’m sure other people have realized a similar benefit by being able to act calm when they’re not.
Again, one trait is not better than the other. A person might find one easier to deal with than another, but that’s personal preference. Any time there’s a trade-off, we pick which difficulty we’d rather deal with. As long as a person is aware of the trade-off, they can make their decision intelligently.
Anita 73
Nathan. Cool.
Anita 74
Re: John Gray and his academic credentials–judge as you see fit:
Acc. to his entry on Wikipedia, Gray received a bachelors and masters degree in the Science of Creative Intelligence, though sources vary on whether these degrees were received from either the non-accredited Maharishi European Research University (MERU) in Switzerland or the fully accredited Maharishi International University in Fairfield, Iowa.Gray received his Ph.D. in 1982 from Columbia Pacific University (CPU), a now-defunct and non-accredited university located in San Rafael, California upon completion of a correspondence course.
(Ed. note from EMK – You don’t need academic credentials to know what you’re talking about, to observe gender dynamics or to help people. This should be patently obvious, but when I get posts like this, apparently it needs explaining.)
Anita 75
Explanation is here.
Michelle at 52 said in response to Nathan’s questioning of Gray’s work: “John Gray is a PhD, so I’m thinking he does has a modicum of credibility.” To be fair, if someone is going to say that someone’s ideas have credibility because of their academic credentials, then those academic credentials bear examining. Readers can judge for themselves. If Michelle (or Gray himself) said that his expertise comes from observing gender dynamics I would not have even mentioned his academic credentials. But they aren’t saying that. They are saying that his expertise comes from his academic accomplishments. I was not the one who brought this up.
Nathan is saying that he, too, observes gender dynamics and comes to conclusions different from Gray’s. I’m with Nathan, and I don’t give Gray’s observations more weight because he has some dubious PhD. I actually give him less credence because the whole PhD thing with him seems kind of scammy. Sorry if that offends anyone.
Anita 76
Apologies for the multiple posts, but just had another thought about Gray. When he first came out he was being promoted as an ex-priest who had fallen in love with a woman and so left the priesthood to get married. So he had this patina of authority and soul-searching on him. Turns out the “priesthood” that he left was some kind of hippy-ish 1970s cult kind of thing, and not an organized religion. But he wasn’t upfront about that–it all came out later. So to me he always seemed to be misrepresenting his background to claim an authority that he’d never earned. If people like what he says, go for it. I’m not persuaded, personally.
starthrower68 77
Oddly enough, me who tries to always hide behind the jolly girl facade, is still in love with a man that I can never allow back in my life. I have no worries he will ever return either. No, he was not abusive or anything of the sort but we are entirely different people. There were behaviors I couldn’t accept and I was all too aware that he would not change nor would I change him. Not a day goes by that I don’t think about him; I still have an emotional response when I do think of him, even after a year and a half of no contact. And yet if he were to contact me this minute and want back in my life I don’t think I could let him in. Even with how I feel, there is a sense of relief that I never have to be faced with that possibility.