How Can I Learn To Trust A Man And Give Him Freedom?

Evan Marc Katz

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Some women freak out if he talks to another woman, has lunch with another woman, says something cute on Facebook to another woman, or looks at another woman. I think this is a bad policy because it’s essentially asking him to spend his entire life lying to you and denying the existence of any other woman. If you find a man who is willing to pretend that no one else in the world is attractive but you, I applaud you and hope you’re happy.

Agonizing about whether he’s going to cheat is like agonizing about whether a plane is going to crash. You really can’t do anything about it, so you might as well try to enjoy the ride.

But since you’re a freedom-loving woman, Kim, you don’t have to do that. You just want to know how far you should go. It’s not my place to say what’s right for you, but if you believe what I do – that both sexual contact and sexual intention can be considered cheating – then that becomes your tipping point. If your boyfriend is asking for women’s numbers, flirting on Match.com, taking other women out to dinner secretly, having phone sex, or actually cheating on you, then, well, he’s broken the boundaries of exclusivity.

In other words: fantasizing, fine. Acting on his fantasies without your permission, not fine.

As long as you know your boundaries, you can give him all the leeway in the world, until he breaches your trust. Which brings me back to the three things my wife had to say about your question:

1. Go with your gut.

My wife trusts me so much that even when she had physical evidence that I was cheating on her (panties in the dryer), she still believed me when I swore that I wasn’t.

She trusted her gut.

My wife knows infidelity – she’s had three boyfriends cheat on her – and each time, she knew when something was wrong. Her wisdom was in not treating those men (or me) as if they were untrustworthy until they actually did something untrustworthy.

2. Stop looking for it.

As my wife pointed out, if he’s going to cheat on you, he’s going to cheat on you. You can’t stop it with fear or worry or interrogation or jealousy. If anything, those kinds of behaviors will be more likely to drive a man to escape. Agonizing about whether he’s going to cheat is like agonizing about whether a plane is going to crash. You really can’t do anything about it, so you might as well try to enjoy the ride.

3. Trust

As I’ve long said, it’s either full trust or no trust. If you truly trust your guy, you couldn’t even imagine him cheating on you. He has a strong moral code. He treats you like gold. Even if he’s attracted to other women, he would never think of jeopardizing his relationship for a quick fling. And so you let everything go that is not actually cheating behavior – and watch him express his further devotion and appreciation to you.

For you will be the only woman ever who has done that for him – who was confident enough to let him be himself and not try to change him.

That’s why he’ll stick with you forever.

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116 Comments »Filed Under Understanding Men

116 Responses to “How Can I Learn To Trust A Man And Give Him Freedom?”

1. Kathleen 1

   I love Evans comment thats its the doubts that will drive you nuts not the man. To me worrying about trusting the guy is about as unhappy as comparing yourself to other people all the time. If you are secure in yourself and the man has done nothing to warrant distrust why distress yourself. If your intuition is up though thats a different issue

   Im at the same stage of life as Kim My ex husband of 20 years was 6 4″ extremely good looking and women would notice him everywhere Overseas people would ask him for his autograph thinking he was an athlete or movie star. I never distrusted him because I was secure and safe with him and our marriage didn’t break up over infidelity. My guess is Kims last 2 year relationship lowered her self esteem so she could focus on rebuilding that 
   At my age I am very self accepting and confident which is attractive Insecurity is not attractive for men or women  If a guy Im with wants someone else he can go and Ill find someone better.
   Thanks for another great topic 
    
    

2. menji 2

   I love this article.. very much like me to my husband… it’s amazing how difficult it is to find a man worthy of such trust, however, i should say that you will definitely know once you find that man.

   I totally agree with Evan, a man with high morals is worth trusting. And it is not only with his relationship with you that you would see this. Observe his dealings with other people, his dealings with money, work and other things, keep you eyes and heart open, and only then would you be able to decide whether you can trust the person.

   As I always said to my husband, there is no gray area when it comes to morals and character of a person. What is wrong is wrong, and what is right is right. And acting on something is entirely different from thinking or fantazising, as Evan mentioned.

   I do sometimes still get crazy squirrels in my head, however, it is something that is easily resolved by talking and opening up to him about issues. I have been burnt before, where i just overlooked things and thought that things would go away if you dont talk about it. This time, i learned that communication is as important as love and trust in any relationship. And it was my husband who guided me towards that direction.

3. Kathy 3

   Okay, you lost me at lap dance. I consider lap dancing cheating, your wife doesn’t? Really? Then I question her self-esteem. Okay then If some random girl does the same to you at a bar, that’s okay too? Is it okay if a guy fondles your wife (clothes on)? Why not? First, I find anyone who goes to a strip club to be lacking in the class department, if this happens at a stag party, then time to go. My fiancé will not do these things. If he did…buh-bye!

4. helene 4

   I have recently begun a long distance relationship with a man I have only met a few times, and clearly in a situation like that you really have no way of knowing exactly how someone is spending their time when you’re not around. I know he’s a man who appreciates women and is confident around them, so how do I deal with the  issue of trust and freedom?

   Firstly, I think its important to remember that if a man is with you, its because he wants to be with you. You have to give him some credit for his own choices – if he wanted to be with someone else, well, he’d be with someone else, wouldn’t he??!

   Secondly, as this in a new relationship, I pay attention to his behaviour. How open is he with me about what he’s been doing? Does he call when he said he would? Are there a lot of inconsistencies in his stories? I don’t snoop. pry. or even worry about where he is or what he’s doing, but I do take note…. and one thing I would say is that men who are being faithful to you, particularly if you are apart, are generally anxious to demonstrate this to you. They know women worry about these things, they don’t want to be though of as a player if they’re not, so if you don’t act nosey about what they’re up to they will often go to great lengths to demonstrate that they are not out with other women(often by giving slightly tedious accounts of the details of their day – but hey, you can’t have it both ways!) In contrast, a player will generally try to keep quiet about his whereabouts unless asked, at which point, yes, he may come out with some story, but there is a difference in the type of stories players tell in these situations.   

   Thirdly, as I have commented in other posts, I will happily tolerate  - indeed, actively encourage –  my man to express appreciation for other women, by pointing out good looking women and taking an interest when he does the same. Today I got an e-mail from him commenting on the women’s beach volleyball in the olympics, and mentioning he’d seen some gorgeous photos of said volleyball girls asses. I googled the photos and e-mailed back agreeing that they are, indeed, superb….

   I think this sort of openness makes a man feel closer to you, more relaxed, and perversely, less likely to seriously stray – if he can admire other women without you freaking out he doesn’t get into the “going behind your back” mentality, like a naughty child who thinks his mother is spoilijng his fun.

   And yes, lastly, if a man is going to cheat there is nothing you can do, so why worry about it – if he does, you can deal with that when it happens – like earthquakes, there is not much you can do in advance !  

5. Kristina 5

   Finding that fine line is so hard. My boyfriend and I have been off and on for 3 years (the off only being about 2 months combined)….he likes his freedom and he distances himself when he finds me acting co-dependent (understood). I am now trusting him with all my heart and it’s an amazing feeling. My only issue is that his ex keeps trying to contact him. How do you make those annoying pestering thoughts go away? I deactivated my facebook so I wouldn’t see her comments but it still nags at me. “Come visit me” she always says.

6. Lala 6

   I agree with the article, i just don’t think I know how to get there already. As someone who always believed in the “not put yourself in risky situations” advice, I still have trouble being tottally fine when something like that happens

7. Evan Marc Katz 7

   @Kathy - This. This is what I’m talking about. And I think we can agree that a guy like me would never go for a woman like you – if only because you’ve never met me and have already declared that I’m classless because my friends took me to a strip club at my bachelor party. Judgmental much?

   All I’ll say in reply is that I hope that your fiance never goes to a bachelor party, and if he does, that he stands with a Coke in his hand, far, far away from any scantily clad women. But I suspect that he will go to a bachelor party and be forced lie to you about it because of your hard-line stance. If that works for him, as I’ve already said in my post, God bless you both.

8. Heather 8

   Kathy,

   While I disagree with you on your assessments of EMK and his wife (we don’t know what goes on behind closed doors so best not to go there really), I can understand how you feel about a guy you are with, getting a lap dance from a stripper or some other woman.  It does make me uncomfortable.  Just like I am sure it would probably bug my guy if some stripper came and was grinding on me. 

   However, that’s their relationship and that’s the point he’s making.  If that works for them and she trusts him, well there you go.  Everyone has their boundaries and what makes them comfortable or uncomfortable.  I trust my guy to go out with his co-workers or guy friends and that he wouldn’t cheat on me.  There’s really not alot I can do about it to make it not happen, but trust that if it were to happen, he would be sent packing.  Very quickly.  And he knows it.  His cousin just had her now ex-boyfriend cheat on her and we talked about the subject, and I told him my views on it, that it is a dealbreaker, that if I were to be cheated on, I do NOT want to “work on the relationship”, etc.

   I can understand how you feel, truly I do, it’s not a fun thought to think of some strange woman grinding on your guy.  But what EMK and his wife are OK with, well that’s kind of their business.  Just sayin.

9. Mia 9

   I’ve never worried about a boyfriend cheating, but then again, I shy away from attractive alpha males who are charming ladies’ men. I try to find guys who are cute, but have some flaw that other women would judge him for, such being on the short side, being foreign, having kind of a nerdy look, or simply not being slick with women. I might not be so cool if were with a man like Evan, who had dated a lot, was attractive, and charming with women. However, it’s probably not fair to judge like that – I have been going on dates with a more conventionally good loo king, charming guy. I’d assume if he kept asking me out in a timely fashion, and showed interest , there is no reason to freak out. I’m not bothered by strip clubs either, but I’d still prefer a man not say anything at all but attractive women to me. 

10. Ileana 10

    Evan, something isnt’t really clear to me. Doesn’t fully trusting a stranger (say, in the first months of dating)based on ‘(s)he hasn’t done anything wrong…yet’ put you in a vulnerable position? You know, getting your feelings hurt and all that…? Or should you just not get really emotionally involved with a stranger and wait for the trust to build?
    And how did your wife react, after being cheated on? I mean, is she the advocate of giving another chance, or should one simply cut the cheater off? 
    Do you think there can ever be an excuse for cheating? Or that if someone cheated once, there will surely be a second time?
     

11. Evan Marc Katz 11

    Yes, Ileana, trusting a stranger puts you in a vulnerable position. And yet that’s the only way to find true love. If my wife judged me for the sins of her exes, she wouldn’t be my wife.

    I’m writing a newsletter about cheating later this week. Sign up above if you want to hear my thoughts…

12. Ileana 12

    @Evan #11: Signed up to your newsletter from the very first time i visited this site. Each one of your mails resides in my ‘Evan’s f***ing brilliant dating advice’  file. 

13. PGL 13

    What Evan wrote makes sense and that is what I’ve always practiced, but sometimes it just backfires. I must be one clueless person with bad judgement of character. I just found out six years later that my ex cheated on me several times during the seven years we were together. I always trusted him & never doubted him. Even after we broke up he asked a mutual friend to never tell me because he knew I never suspected him. What I do know, if a guy ever admits to cheating on every girlfriend he has ever had and acts remorseful, I’m still not dating him.

14. Leo 14

    Evan’s right when he said it’s all about…

    Trust.

    And I’d add that trust is a 2-way street.

    You want to be able to trust your man, but he also has to earn it.

    You wouldn’t want to immediately trust every single guy you date…

    That he’s going to treat you like his queen…

    To love, respect you, appreciate you and never do you wrong?

    Instead, you’d just stand back,

    And let him show you what’s he about.

    But don’t close him off.

    Now if you have a habit of not trusting men,

    There’s only 2 reasons for this:

    1) you keep dating the types of guys you can’t trust (players) or 
    2) someone lost your trust once, and you won’t trust anyone else again

    If it’s the former, start dating men who are trusthworthy.

    If it’s the latter, have faith in yourself that you’ll be okay.

    Even if it happens again, it’s not going to break you.

    It never did and it never will.

15. Henriette 15

    I think that for many women — at least, for me and quite a few of my friends — we make a fuss over certain behaviors not because we think the guy is going to cheat but because it’s humiliating when he acts in certain ways.  
    For example, I know plenty of women who try to establish their superiority over other women by flirting outrageously with their husbands and getting a charge when these guys respond.  I don’t mind if my guy notices a pretty woman but what if it’s obvious to everyone in the room that he’s leering at her?  What should my small-breasted, brunette friend do when her boyfriend announces, loudly, at a dinner out with friends that he loooooves big-boobed blondes the instant the waitress fitting that description saunters away from the table?  I suspect Evan’s lovely wife was cool with him enjoying the burlesque dancers at his party not only because she knew he wouldn’t cheat but also because he didn’t spend the evening talking loudly about how sweet the ass was of one and how he’d love to ride another like a pony.
    What I’m trying to say in my round-about way is that even though I’ve never worried that a guy would cheat on me, I’ve had a harder time establishing and maintaining boundaries about a fellow’s behavior around these kinds of subjects.  When does appropriate looking/appreciating turn into embarrassing ogling; when does mentioning that a mutual friend is hot go from being a few non-threatening comments to being kinda creepy overkill…  and how can I help a dude understand the difference… and when should I simply bite my tongue?
     

16. helene 16

    @Henriette

    I really don’t think anyone should stress about where their boundries “should” be. Your boundaries are your boundaries and they should be wherever feels comfortable and appropriate TO YOU. That said, you cannot impose your boundaries on another person – all you can do is stick to them yourself. If the man your with has different boundaries, there is no need to stress about how to make him adhere to your boundaries – you simply have to say, well, he’s not the man for me.

    I do think, though, in setting one’s own boundaries, that we owe it to ourselves to ensure that they come from a place of confidence and self esteem, and not from fear or insecurity. If you don’t like your man commenting on another womans boobs because it makes you feel anxious and unattactive, then that is a boundary coming from a place of fear and anxiety. If you don’t like your man commenting on another womans boobs because you are a member of the Amish and in your religious worldview  such behaviour is disrespectful to God, then that’s another matter. 

    I do agree with Evan, though that we have to accept that men are MEN…. and that’s why we like them! Men admiring other women’s boobs in the street  is liek women drooling over shoe shop windows – its just part of our make-up, and nothing to complain about.      

17. Rachael 17

    @leo: Very, very sound advice. Pretty much the same advice i’ve been getting from my mom all my life. She married my dad at 19 and they are going on 40 years next march. She’s wise. As are you.

    @evan: I suspect your wife is so rare for the immesurable difficulty a lot of women find in adopting such attitudes. I suppose for some it always has and always will come naturally. As you know, not so much for others.

    Letting go of the trust issues, bitterness, sadness and defeat of ending a marriage was the hardest thing I have ever done in my life. Harder to let go than to continue going through it. Going through it was damn hard enough. The person I was closest to in my life betrayed my trust. The person who trusted me with EVERYTHING (even his feelings…his deepest thoughts)ended up lying to me. It damn near killed me. I remember one moment when I thought I lost my soul.

    To give someone that power again is not so easy. To give it in the first place isn’t easy. Proving that you’re worthy of it is hard enough. The trust thing takes a lot more than just knowing a relationship needs it. It takes a lot of strength and values from both sides.

     

18. Fiona 18

    I have never worried that someone might cheat on me in a relationship. I don’t approve of strip clubs though not because I have an issue with trusting men to behave but because a) there is a lot of human trafficking in this country and b) lots of women who start with stripping end up on a slippery slope towards prostitution and blighted lives. I would therefore rather that the men I date keep out of them because although they are not hurting me in any way, they are indirectly and unintentionally contributing to an industry that exploits women and destroy lives and I have a very hard time condoning that.

19. a noun y moose 19

    This is a really interesting post and discussion.  As a recovering codependent and the former wife of a sex addict, I can relate to most of what has written here.
     
    It seems obvious, but we all have our own sets of values and who is to say what works for us is supposed to work for someone else.  Even though I sense it was tinged with a bit of sarcasm, I appreciate Evan’s words to his detractor, essentially saying if it works for her “God bless you (her).”  While I would also have a problem with the lap dance, Evan is not my husband, so it is essentially none of my business.  I agree with his overall advice.
     
     
     
    What is my business is knowing my own bottom lines are and then sticking to them.  Part of the process of being with a sex addict is continually adjusting one’s bottom lines to accommodate the addict in ones’ life.  For example, watching porn with your partner because you don’t want to be accused of being a “prude” even though it makes you feel creepy; or not speaking up when your spouse wants to go out with other women alone — and it doesn’t feel right in your gut — because you again don’t want want to be the party pooper. 
     
    A lot of people in this thread have said things like that there isn’t a lot you can do if your guy wants to cheat.  I agree to some extent, but I think there are protections one can build into a relationship so that your guy is very clear about what kind of behavior you will and will not tolerate.  If he really does love you and doesn’t want to wind up alone, he will be more likely to avoid those behaviors as long as you are clear at the beginning about those boundaries so he doesn’t feel like you’re doing a bait and switch.  I’m making sure that those things are in my online dating profile (or questions) so potential partners know upfront where my boundaries lie.  No surprises so they will not feel disappointed if I restate them later on.  I can also tell you that based on my anecdotal data from talking with people  in my job and on behavioral research, people will condition their behavior based on clearly communicated expectations of others.  In other words, there are things you can do try to ensure that your (caring) partner will not cheat on you.  If someone has an addictive personality (another red flag) or doesn’t truly care about you, these types of protections will be less effective.
     
    On red flags, etc.:  I really love Evan’s three step advice.  So easy and so true.  The first thing that I noticed in my relationship the sex addict was a general sense of discomfort when out and about with other people.  I had never been a jealous girlfriend, but I started getting my feelings hurt when my then-boyfriend and I were out in groups.  The reason was (and I couldn’t identify it at the time) that he showed no sense of romantic connection with me in public and was non-verbally communicating his availability to other women all of the time.  Even if you can’t quantify it, I say honor those gut feelings because they are usually right on.
     
    Another red flag:  If you feel lonely even though you are in a relationship or feel like using drugs or alcohol more often (or working longer and later, etc.)  then you were before, I’ve found that those are signs (to me) of my gut trying to tell me something about my primary relationship that I usually don’t want to hear. 
     
    Somebody else said you can tell a lot about a person’s character by other things in his life.  I’m not so worried if he occasionally pays a bill late or something.  I think how he treats other people is way more telling — especially those he doesn’t like or has had a falling out with.
     
    @Kristina – #4
     
    Does your boyfriend make you feel special and valued or do you get the sense that he is keeping his options open?  If it’s the latter, I’d ask yourself if you really want to feel insecure while you’re sitting at home with a six month old baby and five inch stretch marks on your abdomen while your husband is MIA.  Those insecure feelings don’t leave when you get married if your guy is not fully committed to you.  As Evan says, believe the negatives not the positives, trust your gut and, if it’s not working for you, cut your losses and find someone new.  Three years lost is still probably less than the rest of your remaining fertile years. 
     

20. Gina 20

    I was reading through the comments.  Someone mentioned that she thought it was classless for a man to go to strip clubs, for god sakes he isn’t going to one every night, it was for a bach. party. It’s harmless fun.  While I wouldn’t be happy with my guy visiting strip clubs as a hobby, if it’s for a party that is fine.  Trust, yes is the essence of being vulnerable, it’s definitely isn’t for the faint of heart, but in my opinion… sometimes as people men or woman, we know inside something isn’t right, but we lie to ourselves.
     

21. Still-Looking 21

    Kathleen @1 said it best – “Insecurity is not attractive for men or women  If a guy Im with wants someone else he can go and Ill find someone better.”

    If my girlfriend wants to watch Magic Mike, The Chippendales, or flirt  with a guy at a bar I’m not going to be offended, hurt, or jealous.  She is either faithful or she’s not and I don’t believe any of the actions above lead to a slippery slope to infidelity.  To paraphrase Kathleen, if your partner wants to be with someone else, let him or her go and find someone who does want to be with you. 

22. Tash 22

    Sorry Evan, you’ve lost me on the panties in the dryer. If you find physical evidence of your partner cheating & choose to ignore it, it tells alot about someone’s self esteem (or apparent lack of it). That’s not at all healthy.

23. Evan Marc Katz 23

    Hey Tash, go read the story about the panties and then come back and apologize. Thanks.

24. Rachael 24

    Hey now…Go ahead and question Evan when he says his wife found panties, but don’t question his wifes self esteem. Who knows what kind of story might be behind it. 

    And clearly there is one according to Evan’s above comment (which I will now go search for).

    Play fair when you call someones values into question.
     

25. sarahrahrah! 25

    The panties story is both hilarious and endearing, Evan.  And so very Larry David/Curb Your Enthusiasm!  Was there ever an episode based on it?

26. Katrina 26

    See i BELIEVE that this only works because most women are just not secure enough to fully trust their partner! I also think that what she doesn’t know can’t hurt her right? And the most successful marriages I have ever known are ones where the wife believes her marriage is hunky dory and her husband never cheats on her while he is busy having women on the side.
    My ex ex husband has a wife who actually finds other women to sleep with. They are in saudi arabia at the moment so it is difficult for men to find willing women for nsa fun. He loves his wife more then anything because she never says no to him, allows his cake and to eat it too, and she is beautiful after two children. He often says that he can’t believe his luck. I asked him if it was okay for his wife to have other men and he said his wife doesn’t want too!
    In my eyes this is completely unfair to the wife. Its as if she is settling to make him happy without any concern for herself. Of course he is happy in such an open marriage but what is the cost. Obviously being in a marriage and the luxuries that go with it are more important to her then her own self worth!
    That is an extreme case but back to the men whose wives trust them completely not to actually cheat behind her back I think its a crock and alot of men are getting off the hook here. And they know it! A friend of mine has an open marriage and his wife allows threesomes and he is always cheating on her behind her back. Yet she believes that because they are open about everything he tells her the truth.
    The fact is that women need to be more independent and men need to learn how to be grateful for what they have!
    As for trust… well it is usually undeserved but we will always have a few idiot women who truly believe her husband doesn’t succumb to temptation behind her back.

27. Leo 27

    @Rachael
    Thanks and congratulations to your parents. 40 years isn’t easy by any standards.

    ” To give someone that power again is not so easy. To give it in the first place isn’t easy. Proving that you’re worthy of it is hard enough. The trust thing takes a lot more than just knowing a relationship needs it. It takes a lot of strength and values from both sides. ”

    You’re so on point. It may take some time, but you’re definitely going to be okay.

28. Kathleen 28

    Katrina 

    Are you saying that in all successful marriages the wife has her eyes closed while he cheats.????    I trusted my husband of 20 years so Im an idiot???  Most women aren’t secure enough to trust their partner???  What sort of people do you hang out with?? 

    If you had an ex husband who has his current wife procure other women no wonder you have such a warped outlook.

29. Rachael 29

    @Katrina

    You’re kidding right?

    I don’t know what kind of screwed up world you grew up in, but that’s not the world I know.

    I actually have real 40+ year marriages (several) to use as an example and that’s not the case at all! All the females in those marriages are strong, commanding, intelligent women.

    If they chose to move on past infidelity at any point it was because they felt it was worth their while to do so. But I highly doubt any one of those women is the type to put up with any kind of bullshit from their man. 

30. Clare 30

    Feeling secure and trusting in your relationship is a wonderful feeling, and I think it comes from a number of things. And so for what it’s worth, I think they are:

    1)  Choose men of integrity. I would say place this quality close to the top of your list of requirements in a partner. You really have only yourself to blame if you are dazzled by someone who demonstrates player behaviour.

    2) Quality of your relationship. I think in a relationship where 2 people adore each other, the chances of cheating are low. What’s more, being adored brings with it its own feeling of security, as does knowing you are with someone who chooses to spend most of his free time with you.

    3) Be aware of your own boundaries / comfort level. As Evan says, this differs from person to person and couple to couple, but I think it makes sense to choose someone who makes you (generally) comfortable, not someone who is setting off your radar on a weekly basis.

    4) Evan may not agree with me on this, but I think the women here generally will – There are women who are drawn to men who are in committed relationships, and it’s wise to be careful of them. For me personally, it’s important to me to be with a guy who knows what he has in me, and can see these women for what they are.

    These are my own personal guidelines for being trusting in a relationship, but I really do feel that you will know the strength of your relationship by the fact that trust comes naturally. Beyond that, live and let live – don’t give your devoted guy a hard time

31. Hope 31

    #23 EMK:
    I think this was a good blog post and I also read and appreciated the original “panties in the dryer post”….but I too would like to know why the panties were in the dryer!  Not pointing the finger…just quite curious! : )

32. Heather 32

    @ Clare,

    I agree with you.  I think there really are women who are drawn to guys in committed relationships.  I’ve had friends who were involved with married men, and often that wasn’t the first married man they went for.  There are women who are drawn to what the author of the “Baggage Reclaim UK” blog calls, “Mr. Unavailable.”
    I can understand that some guys in committed relationships can be very attractive, but I also know that I’d be horrendously screwing up my karma, going after them.  Once a guy is taken, hands off.  I think it’s very rude to go after a guy whom you know is taken.  A girlfriend of mine once unknowingly went after my now ex-boyfriend, she later told me that she had no clue he was dating me, because I was never mentioned in that group of friends during happy hours, etc.  I had no problem with that and i told her so.  She didn’t know, no harm, no foul.

    Cheating is huge for me, I’ve been cheated on, a number of times, in my past.  But now I have boundaries in place, and I’ve made it clear to guys I date now.  Cheat once, you are gone, there is no second chance with me.  Done.

33. sharon 33

    So at point do you got from trusting the negatives to trusting the guy with integrity?  Trusting my gut this far hasn’t worked out so well for me, if it had I probably wouldn’t be reading this blog. 

    So exactly do you stop trusting the negatives? 

34. Michelle 34

    This strategy works well when raising teenagers too …pre-teen, let them know you fully trust them, until they give you a reason not to, and remind them of that here and there throughout the years  That has worked very well in my household.

    This is an excellent article and how I treat the men I choose to date. 

    Helene, I loved your posts/comments.  Good luck with your new relationship!    

35. AtTheGymKim 35

    Thank you so much, Evan, for your reply to my inquiry. The panties in the dryer story was absolutely hysterical. And having been on the receiving end of that same type of innocent accusation where there is no way to prove yourself innocent, I know THAT feeling as well. I have since learned this is a tactic used by cheaters to defray the heat from their own behavior by making up some accusation about their partner:(

    What you said, ”Thus, the first thing you have to do, Kim, is to find a man that you completely trust, without a doubt.” is exactly what I am doing. I guess it just takes time to not only trust one’s own intuition about these things, but to see if the man’s character lines up with his words. I know you say never trust the words, only the actions. There is no real way to vaccinate yourself from being deceived. It is just knowing, having been through it before, that you recognize the signs, the feeling in your gut, and realize you have the strength to walk way, and not getting caught up in the fantasy of who you THINK they are, who you WISH they were, or who you NEED them to be and just observe who they ARE. I do appreciate everyone’s comments to the post, they are all immensely helpful!
     

36. Julia 36

    I am always trusting of the men I date, whether they deserved my trust or not I will never know because I don’t snoop or accuse them of cheating.

37. Chris 37

    I have been in a similar position. After a 19 year marriage, dating was new and after being with one man so long, although I knew what I didn’t want, I was still exploring and learning what I did want and part of that was undoing old habits. Part of dating right out of a long marriage is not letting your loneliness and new found separateness blur your boundaries. But it happens, because if you were like me, and ignored during your lonely marriage, it’s easy to go with a man that shows you attention and reawakens things that were dead in you. Even if he’s a player or unavailable. I think it is common. And ladies, it’s ok. Guys make the same mistakes and we need to experience players and unavailables to better define what we need and want. Kim recognized that a player is not what she wants and is looking for a game plan to avoid getting in that situation again. It is a process of learning and trial and error until you become solid again in your new life, being single, and finding fulfillment in other areas other than a relationship. I’ve gone through several players and unavailables. Avoiding players is not about trusting them unconditionally. It’s about setting up standards beforehand and as you date and go through the getting to know stage, you constantly hold them up to your standards, trusting they will follow through, but being comfortable enough to be alone rather than staying with them, when they break your trust or cross your boundaries. If lap-dancing is crossing your boundaries, that is fine and is your boundary, no one else’s and it’s not about not trusting the man. If you think watching porn is cheating, that is fine. It’s ok if that doesn’t suit you and that’s not the kind of man you want in your life and it doesn’t mean you think he’ll cheat. You just don’t like porn in your life, just like you might not want smoking in your life. I recently dated a man that was one of the first that didn’t want to get in my pants the first couple of dates. I was thrilled because I had finally decided that this was a boundary I no longer wanted crossed. He was fun, a gentleman, a flirt, outgoing and I knew he was on match and talking to multiple women at gatherings. That was not the problem. It was his deception. He was playing the field despite his initial words and actions about caring enough about me and a relationship to go slow. He had figured out, probably in some book or men’s blog, that pretending to be a gentleman and not trying to get sex right away is the way to a woman’s heart and a way to break down her boundaries and get what he wants. And what he wanted was all the fun (physical companionship) without the work or commitment. I knew pretty soon it would be a lot of work on my part to even get close to what I needed with this man. His deceptive, immature and confusing communications were the red flags. He was not honest with himself or me and actually lied about why he didn’t contact me one time. That is what I could not trust, not how he treated or acted around other women. Being a player doesn’t just mean playing with your body, there are plenty that play with your mind and emotions. And unfortunately, in my experience they are in the majority. As Evan has pointed out, men want the milk without buying the cow. But if they really want the milk and we put a price on it, they’ll buy it. 

38. Nicole 38

    Yeah, there isn’t any way to control another person.  And if you set up lots of rules that you think will keep your man or woman from cheating, most of which are kind of ridiculous, then he/she will just lie about what they are doing.  And you are setting up a system where everything is an infraction, so you’re making someone seem worse than they are.  

    I don’t get why people think that controlling who their spouse is friends with, who he/she talks do, who his/her friends are, leads to a long, happy marriage.

    It might result in a long marriage, but it will also result in someone who probably secretly resents you, is passive aggressively lashing out at you behind your back, and who is keeping secrets that could vary from innocuous to serious just b/c they fear you and your rules.  And most importantly, the person will be unhappy and feel trapped (unless they have the courage to get out there and try again, although fear of being alone makes many people stay in unhappy and unfulfillling marriages).

    I could never live that way, so why would I expect any man to want to.  You’ll both be a lot happier and sleep better not always waiting for the shoe to drop.  Trusting someone isn’t about a power struggle.  It’s not about giving anyone power over me.  It’s actually giving me control over myself, and my feeling is that anyone who really is lying or cheating will be revealed.  But it doesn’t make me a sucker or a victim.  I don’t want to play cop.  Lying and deception takes a lot of work so you’ll always find out in the end.  And I think acting like a prison guard at home just means that it will take LONGER b/c it will encourage more secrets.

    I don’t want a husband who fears me, who can’t be himself with me, and who regrets meeting me.  And I don’t want someone to stay with me out of fear while secretly hating the sight of me.  That stuff totally happens.  Why put yourself in that situation?  

    If I trust someone who winds up being a liar, what have I lost?  I just move on. 

39. Trenia 39

    I hate to get all biblical, but I love that saying “be wise as a serpent, gentle as a dove”. I believe in trusting your partner, while also being wise and observant. Also, I find the never say never people when it comes to cheating are often cheated on. The reality is we live in a world that makes cheating so easy and lots of women have been cheated on. And while a lot of the scenarios mentioned in this thread are not considered slippery slopes for some, they have been slippery slopes for many people. Some of the most honest, trusting people have cheated, that’s the truth. 

    I think it’s important for a woman to trust her man, but he also needs to be clear about his actions and make it plain about her role in his life. If a man has a lot of female friends, the onous is on him to let his woman know that she is #1 in his life, that’s not about trust that’s common sense. These kinds of scenarios remind me why the dating scene can be challenging when only women ask for relationship advice, because what men need to know about women is that we often feel insecure. It’s not a constant state of mind for most healthy women, but it happens from time to time. We live in a world where bodies of female olympic athletes are criticized and scored by the media, then we’re surprised when an average woman is a little insecure around other attractive women? Come on. Sometimes we need some re-assurance, not all the time but just a little reminder that she’s his priority goes a long way.

40. Heather 40

    Trenia,

    I’m with you there.  I trust my boyfriend but I’ve learned to still be mindful, and to not let my emotions or my heart carry me away.  He’s actually pretty good about telling me where he’s going or whom he is with.  Thus far, I trust him, until he gives me a reason not to.  If he does stray, well then I know that I will be strong enough to curse him out, send him packing, and move on.  In that order.

    I’ve grown strong enough to know and trust my own boundaries, that they are boundaries that come out of loving and honoring myself and what I want and need out of a man, and also a need for no drama in my life.  Cheating is a very firm boundary and it has worked well for me.  I’ve dated players before, and once I’d find that out, I stopped seeing them, and a few tried to get back with me but I just made it clear that they were not what I wanted anymore and that I wanted a real commitment.

    If my man cheats, so be it.  It will be his karma and it will come back on him, not me, and reflects upon a serious lack of character on his part, not mine.  Until then, I’m just going to keep going along and assuming that I do not have a reason to not trust him.

41. Lily2 41

    @ Katrina
    Help me understand this…
    ” A friend of mine has an open marriage and his wife allows threesomes and he is always cheating on her behind her back.”
     
    Help me understand this. You state they have an “open marriage.” How does one cheat in an OPEN relationship? Do you mean he has more women than he admits to?

42. Jo 42

    I am sure Kim has been burned in the past (haven’t we all).  It is our choice to take that distrut to the next relationship.  We have the power to accept the new guy for every word he says..yet that damn voice in your head says “You have been burned before, don’t trust him.”….well silence taht voice.  Go with your facts and if he has never given you reason to doubt him then DON’T.  There are great guys out there…but often times a woman won’t see it simply because she has been burned in the past by a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT guy.  So, don’t push your insecurities and doubt onto a man who has shown you nothing but love and respect and honesty.

    I actually took my own advice and met a great guy..given we are having some issues now…it has NOTHING to do with trust.  I trust him 100% and it feels good.  Once a relationship is over, learn from it, and move on but do NOT bring it with you into the next relationship as it will hurt and affect it…start fresh.  Keep your lessons from the past but leave the rest….

43. Fusee 43

    Thank you, Evan, for this brilliant post on such a foundamental topic in relationships! You really have a knack to tackle difficult and sensitive topics in a pleasant way.
     
    Trust really is the foundation of a solid and happy relationship. But trust has to be earned. To my opinion, the healthiest way to proceed is by assuming the best of people while being very attentive to what they say and how they behave. As other commenters have pointed it out, it’s essential to refrain from dragging past hurts in a new relationship. Take your new experience-based wisdom with you, but not any mistrust, negative assumptions and excessive boundaries. Take a dating break until you can truly start fresh and give people a true chance at earning your trust.
     
    A first couple of dates in public places in daylight hours is a perfectly safe and effective way to earn basic trust (showing up on time, in appropriate attire, being respectful in language and actions, etc). Then sharing more vulnerable facts of ones life and establishing boundaries, and observing their reaction would be the next step and allow to hopefully build more trust. Are they judgmental and critical or can they accept mishapps and mistakes? Can they respect boundaries or are they pressuring you to overstep them? If everything goes well over a few weeks or months, the last step is opening up to more sensitive and private matters and discover if they can truly accept you, keep confidentiality when requested, and in general make you feel safe and comfortable. Opting out is possible at any time.
    
     
    I agree that acceptance is a big part of trust. After all, what is the point of being the partner of someone you can’t accept? However I strongly believe in the right of having personal limits, therefore I would like to highlight this part from Evan‘s post:
    
    
    
    “Wherever you draw the line becomes the line.”

    
    Indeed it’s okay to not be comfortable with some behaviors and it’s okay to draw the line somewhere. There is someone for everyone. Simply observe how they live their life, ask questions about concerning matters, communicate your needs, and make the choice to continue or opt out based on your investigation.
     
    I’m into freedom as well, and do not intend to pressure anyone into giving their freedom up, but personally I’m not comfortable with the level of freedom that Evan and his wife offer to one another. Why? It’s because I think that relationships need two kinds of energies: NURTURE and PROTECTION. Even if you nurture your relationship to perfection (as Evan and his wife seem to be doing), you are not immune to the possibilty of future seasons of life where your nurturing energy is going to be lower, and at those times, it’s how well protected the relationship has been that will make it last through these extended periods of low nurturing energy. For example, being constantly stimulated by the other gender – physically and/or emotionally – might not have any impact during the high or neutral seasons of a relationship, but this stimulation can become a real relationship-killer in times of lows.
    

    
    The world is not black or white, like a world of people of solid character and of people of low morals. A world of people who are going to refrain from cheating, and of the ones who are going to cheat. People who cheat or not all womanizers or players. Lot of people with perfect track record of integrity have cheated. Not because they planned it, but because “it just happened”. It “just happens” when difficult circumstances and unfortunate opportunities align perfectly.
     
    Let’s say your marriage is hitting a low because your partner has suffered of ill health for a while and has been unavailable to nurture the relationship. They might even have been difficult to deal with. And during these trying times one of your friend/coworker/gym buddy that you had harmless weekly lunches with progressively becomes your main source of attention and emotional comfort, without you to even notice what is happening. Hey you’re used to do whatever you want, with your partner’s blessing. Add to this scenario that the friend has recently become a bit desperate themselves and ready – even unconsciously – to try their luck on you, and you have the recipe for a “it just happened” situation. No player involved. No previous red-flag behavior. Just a lack of understanding of how life works, just a lack of protection by not having a lifestyle compatible with future lows. 
     
    That’s why I believe that successful relationships must involve a decision to restrict willingly one’s own freedom to a reasonable degree. Not because of demands and threats of the other party, not because of insecurities, but because of common sense. A relationship needs nurture AND protection. Anticipating future lows is necessary. Thinking you will be immune of lows is foolish. You will hit lows. The question is not IF but WHEN you will. Where you draw the line is up to you and your partner. It’s another area where to find compromise, or opt out if you can not define mutually agreed-upon limits.
     
    Simply granting/asking for full acceptance no matter how risky the behaviors will become under more testing circumstances does not makes me feel safe for the future. Therefore I’m making sure to cover these difficult conversations with my boyfriend to make sure we can create a safe environment, based on trust, reasonable freedom, and acceptance, but also on common sense and wisdom.
    
     

44. Dagaz 44

    Evan, i like your respond, no doubt, but there’s a huge difference between marriage and “just” a relationship, even committed one. Or between marriage and a newly-fresh relationship. And so on. It feels very different, especially for a man.
    Trust takes time to build up, also it takes a lot of time until man will be open emotionally, especially if he has a certain bad experience. In most of cases, he will would like to keep his options open, without being a player, but it will hurt woman, indeed. Am i right?..
    Also – yes, if man wants to cheat, he will. But, i’d say, the woman’s concern is not his loyality so much, but she would like to know the truth, so she won’t be fooled for long time.

45. Hope 45

    Re: my post #31….I found the panties story and it’s incredible (when I wrote the last post, I had failed to click the hyperlink back to the first story).  And what a beautiful house you have, if it’s the CYE episode I’m thinking of!
    My trust story:
    I am eight months into a good relationship with a good man who I adore.
    This followed 6+ years of bad luck and bad decisions and having my trust violated in a series of shoulda-known-better relationships.  At the beginning of my current relationship (initiated on Match.com), I was extremely cynical on the inside.  Never mind keeping expectations low– I had practically no faith whatsoever in the relationship because of what had happened to me so consistently before.  Luckily, and with help from this blog, I was able to keep a level head (at least on the outside) and keep my baseless suspicions (i.e., “When we talked tonight, he said he’d call me again on Thursday….he must be seeing another woman on Wednesdays!”) to myself. 
    I just kept reminding myself that this guy was not those guys from before. This guy is new to me, and has so far done nothing wrong and everything right.  And acting untrusting, suspicious or insecure is guaranteed to be a turnoff.  It really was a revelation….time and time again, my secret insecurities were proven completely wrong. 
    Example: back in January, just a couple months or so into the relationship, he suggests we go to Vegas for a weekend.  I enthusiastically agree and he says he’ll take care of the booking, assuming he can get the weekend I suggested to him.  A couple weeks go by with no more mention of the trip.  I start to assume he’s preparing to dump me or is seeing someone else. I receive a text from him one evening while standing in line at Whole Foods, that says “I emailed you about the trip.  Let’s talk later.” I reply, “Can you let me know now?” He responds “I’m in the car…will be home in 45 minutes”.  This strikes me as guilty avoidance and I am nearly in tears all the way home. When I finally get home to my laptop, I open his email to see the flight and hotel itinerary taken care of for the dates in late February I had requested, plus tickets for a helicopter ride over the Grand Canyon “as a Valentine’s present.”
    By actual Valentine’s Day, my faith in the poor man was still lacking, and as we hadn’t discussed Valentine’s plans the preceding weekend, I was in a real funk on Monday (VDay was a Tuesday).  All day at work I was moody and even contemplated making plans with a single gal pal on Valentine’s so I could whine about my life.  But sure enough, just as I finished work, I received a text from my man saying he’ll call in a bit so we can make plans for the weekend…and “don’t forget to leave tomorrow night open for me to take you to a Valentine’s dinner : )”.
    Around the same time, a new female intern was put under his supervision at his male-dominated office…a 24-year old girl who had gone to the same college as him (he’s 39).  He arranged to carpool with her because she also lives in his neighborhood.  Despite this being the makings of a nightmare of suspicion for me, I kept my cool, kept a smile on my face, and never made any expression of jealousy, worry or distrust in regards to her.  Over time, not only did my boyfriend disclose that the intern is herself in a long-term relationship, but also that while he was friendly with her at first, he quickly came to find her rather irritating and immature.  I also met her and her man this summer at a pool party, and came away feeling confident there never was anything to worry about.
    Did I mention this man of mine is also handsome, funny, meticulously tidy, a well-paid lawyer, French and also owns a furnished apartment in Paris? 
    Dreams do come true! : )
    I just met his mother, who was visiting from France, and was invited on a two week family vacation with him and his folks.
    It’s still too early to feel completely sure of our future together, but I do have faith now, and I trust him completely.  It’s so nice to be able to relax and enjoy loving and being loved.  This would NEVER have happened if I had voiced my irrational suspicions, or had otherwise given up on or sabotaged the relationship, early in the game when I was still licking old wounds. I just kept cool, kept a smile on my face, and reminded myself not to punish him for my exes’ misdeeds.
     
    Thank you Evan!!!
     
     

46. Katrina 46

    Lily2 41

    @ Katrina
    Help me understand this…
    ” A friend of mine has an open marriage and his wife allows threesomes and he is always cheating on her behind her back.”
     
    Help me understand this. You state they have an “open marriage.” How does one cheat in an OPEN relationship? Do you mean he has more women than he admits to?

    I mean every relationship has rules including “Open” marriages. His wife allows him out and to sleep with other women and he shares her with his mates. You would think he’d be satisfied but she is always watching the clock to make sure he is home directly after work!
    I know because he tried to meet up with me during work hours! Hedge fund bastard!
    I’m sorry people.. but I have been dating for only 2 years now and in that time almost every single one of my friends and neighbors have made moves on me! Some with absolutely stunning wives!
    I am not all that great looking but I am a bit of a kinky slut who can appear deceptively open minded.
    I find that more men open up to me as a result!
    And what I found is that most women live in a dream world where their husbands would never cheat! TBH most don’t realize that he is taking that business trip and having a date at the same time. Or late for work because he was busy in a day hotel.
    These men are two different people! At home they are the ideal husband, seem attentive, sex life is great, always has time for his wife. Yet so many men complain that although they love their wives they just need that bit of excitement on the side!
    i don’t agree with it at all. But I think men who are faithful to their wives are few and far between! The ones who don’t cheat usually can’t find someone to cheat with them and can’t be bothered to make too much effort.
    It is hard work to find women to sleep with when your single let alone when your married.
    btw I don’t hate men! I love them.. but I have yet to find one that can keep his dick in his pants when tempted!

47. David T 47

    Define “putting the moves on you.”  Some people flirt for fun and for some couples that is perfectly acceptable.  It does not mean they would ever act on it.  Now if someone grabs your breast and puts their tongue in your mouth, that is different!
     
    The men I know well and hang around with would not cheat on their partners, ever. I don’t seem them hitting on women etc. etc. Maybe I am naïve, but I can’t imagine the people I know are completely unusual.

48. Fiona 48

    Katrina, are these people all Essex boy bankers with too much money and not enough brains by any chance? If so, I nothing would surprise me. A few weeks ago I stayed with friends in a wealthy part of Canary Wharf for the weekend and in the two days I was there we saw at least 4 hookers in the building. However, they are in no way representative of the majority of the population so you may have a very skewed view of the world.

49. Katrina 49

    David in my experience any man who flirts is easy pickings for a bit of naughty time!
    I have tested it and asked them straight if they would like a bj and not one has ever turned me down!
    Not one!

50. Leesa 50

    hi
    there are two things i want to write here. the last guy i was with knew exactly what to say to me to make me feel very safe and secure with him. i thought he was the most loyal, genuine guy and that he would never cheat on me. after he left me for another women (after i found out about her – he was sleeping with both of us for a couple of weeks), i found out that he had cheated on his wife (he told me that she had cheated on him). so there are these guys, who ease you into a false sense on security so that they can have you at home when they get home, and they can chase other women when they’re out, and you wouldn’t suspect or expect for a minute what they are doing.  so in this case, it’s very difficult to judge clearly. i think that’s how it happens to women. they believe what they are told and they trust their partners.
    two days ago, i was told by a construction worker that when his gang works out of town, every single guy in the gang (except 1), is cheating on their wives (or chasing other women).  now, i think those women would be sitting at home, not expecting their husbands to be cheating on them.  it’s saddened me to hear that all bar one guy was cheating. but then i was grateful that there was one not cheating and i hoped that that is the type of guy i find in the future … if i adhere to evan’s dating advice.

51. Helen 51

    I think most flirting is harmless. If a man flirts, that doesn’t mean that he wants to (all things considered) sleep with the woman with whom he’s flirting. Nor does it mean that he is untrustworthy.

    The only real danger is when one person is being lighthearted about flirtation and the other party takes it more seriously than was intended. But if it’s done in a culture or a sub-culture where everyone is on the same page about it, then flirting is harmless, and even nice and flattering. I can’t flirt to save my life, but like it when other people (men AND women) flirt with me. It cheers me up.

    So, David T, I agree with you on that.  
     
    More generally, I agree with everyone above who has said that you can’t stop another person from cheating. The only person you can control without causing resentment elsewhere is yourself. I think the majority of people at least have the INTENTION not to cheat on loved ones. So if you want to align yourself with a trustworthy person, the first thing to do is to gauge how he feels about the topic (when you’re close enough to do so), and to share honestly and without anger how you feel. That way, you’ll learn if you’re on the same page. But remember that you can’t change another person easily.

52. Heather 52

    @ Leesa,

    I totally understand that.  My best friend is a military contractor and often goes over to war zones for work.  He’s come home telling me all kinds of stories about people over there (men AND women, military AND civilian) who cheat on their partners/spouses.  He told me that sadly, the majority of them do, and he would know, he’s been in the military and now as a civilian, been on numerous tours to the Middle East, so he’s seen alot.

    In fact, I dated a few military contractors and each and every time, they were playing me.  Every. Time.  They saw me as an easy target because I wanted to not be a jaded, cynical bitch, and try to believe them and take their words at face value.  My best friend finally talked to me last spring while home on 30-day R&R, and said gently that I’d probably be better off if I just avoided dating military or military contractors for awhile, due to this problem with fidelity (or lack thereof) when these guys are overseas. 

    Are there military guys and contractors who are faithful?  Indeed there are, my best friend worked with a good few of them who were excellent husbands and fathers.  Sadly, that was the minority though.

    So, I learned to weed them out.  If they wrote to me on PlentyOfFish, I either chose not to respond, or responded stating that I no longer wished to date anyone in the military.  Did it narrow my pool?  Considering that I live not far from the Pentagon, you had better believe it.  I live in a hotbed of military and military contractors so you basically cannot swing a dead cat without hitting one, here.  But the amount of drama in dating, dropped so much.  I was more at peace.  I could enjoy other aspects of my life without that awful knot in my stomach.

53. Ileana 53

    Wow, Katrina’s comments in #46 and #49 kinda freaked me out…. I cannot understand how these guys would simply risk their  marriage only for a fling.

    Anyways, all this reminded me of a movie with Jennifer Love Hewit on this very topic. It’s called ‘The truth about love’. (SPOILER ALERT AHOY!) So the main character (JLH) sends her husband, a very successful lawyer, on Valentines day a prank letter, making it seem as if it was from another woman who admired him. She was very surprised when he didnt mention anything about the letter and this made her even more curious about what exactly her husband is thinking. The situation then evolved from  naughty texts to a meeting at a hotel, where she asked him to blindfold himself at the door, in order not to see her. He had sex with her, without even knowing who she was! Needless to say, he not only theoretically cheated on his wife with a ‘stranger’, but also on his long term mistress. 
    Needless to say, when he found out about this, he wasn’t exacly happy.

    Evan, what do you think of such a move? Is it wise to ‘test’ your partner in such ways- Send him anonymous texts and see if he replies?  Or is this just plain rude?

54. Paragon 54

    @ Katrina
     
    “My ex ex husband”
     
    What is an ex ex husband?
     
    Is that another way of saying, you divorced him, and then remarried him again?
     
    “He often says that he can’t believe his luck. I asked him if it was okay for his wife to have other men and he said his wife doesn’t want too!
    In my eyes this is completely unfair to the wife. Its as if she is settling to make him happy without any concern for herself.”
     
    On the contrary, perhaps she places more value on her keeping him happy.
     
    She is also probably savvy enough to realize that, if she can abide his open promiscuity, it is less of a threat to her.

     ”That is an extreme case but back to the men whose wives trust them completely not to actually cheat behind her back I think its a crock and alot of men are getting off the hook here. And they know it! A friend of mine has an open marriage and his wife allows threesomes and he is always cheating on her behind her back. Yet she believes that because they are open about everything he tells her the truth.
     
    The fact is that women need to be more independent and men need to learn how to be grateful for what they have!”
     
    Perhaps, it is the wives who are grateful for what they have – it is only a select minority(think 10-20%) of males who are attractive enough to indulge in these kinds of arrangements.
     
    And this should be an expected trade-off to mating with a male who is of substantially higher value than themselves.
     
    “As for trust… well it is usually undeserved but we will always have a few idiot women who truly believe her husband doesn’t succumb to temptation behind her back.”
     
    I recall in Evan’s entry concerning Attractive men not always making the best husbands there was an insightful post from a woman who admitted that this was the price(ie. infidelity, abuse, etc.) many are willing to pay, in indulging a high value male.
     
    Of course, they reserve the right to vent, even if it is nothing more than catharsis.
     
    “I’m sorry people.. but I have been dating for only 2 years now and in that time almost every single one of my friends and neighbors have made moves on me! Some with absolutely stunning wives!
    I am not all that great looking but I am a bit of a kinky slut who can appear deceptively open minded.”
     
    From which we might conclude that men(perhaps in a frigid marriage) are drawn to your reputation.
     
    “I find that more men open up to me as a result!”
     
    Go figure.
     
    “i don’t agree with it at all. But I think men who are faithful to their wives are few and far between! The ones who don’t cheat usually can’t find someone to cheat with them and can’t be bothered to make too much effort.”
     
    Risk averse males with healthy sex lives and only inferior options(ie. less attractive than wife) have more to lose, than gain.  
     
    So, it occurs that if women want to minimize risk, they should order their prospects accordingly, rather than just trying to maximize the most superficial traits.
     
    But, if it is TRUST that you want, either learn to trust the one you love, or learn to love those who are TRUSTWORTHY(if you are concerned with that trust being justified).

     ”btw I don’t hate men! I love them.. but I have yet to find one that can keep his dick in his pants when tempted!”

    This is only relevant with respect to purportedly monogamous males.

    If so, it is not surprising, given that fidelity is inconspicuous, and requires more information of the system to be inferred.

55. Fiona 55

    Katrina, what on earth? The onus is on the party in the relationship not to cheat but offering blow jobs to married men? Not sure what you get out of this or what your own dating objectives are but what goes around tends to come around and carrying on like this isn’t likely to get you a committed relationship nor help your long term self esteem. 

56. Wendy 56

    @Leesa 50: I understand and sympathize with you for getting played like a violin. I try to enter each new relationship with an open mind (and a closed mouth) regarding my fears about getting cheated on again. Yes, I said again, because it’s happened to me a lot. I love it when people tell me I’m “choosing the wrong men.” These guys have all been upstanding citizens chock full of integrity, and yet they still cheat. It’s not like they wear t-shirts with “CHEATER” on the front, so please tell me how I’m “choosing” players! One guy was home with me every night, did all the right things, was very affectionate and sweet, and it turns out he was sleeping with a co-worker on his lunch hour. I completely trusted this guy–he’d given me no reason not to. I only found out because another co-worker felt sorry for me and filled me in, and after a little investigating I found it was true. But it always makes me laugh when another brilliant person tells me I choose the wrong men. The bottom line is, I have to believe that there is a man out there who feels as strongly as I do that a solid, loving, respectful relationship is better than the “excitement” of a little on the side. The man I’m dating now seems to be that guy, but I can promise you this: I will not bury my head in the sand and pretend he isn’t capable of cheating; but I won’t go looking for it or poison the relationship with mistrust because he hasn’t done anything wrong yet.

57. Evan Marc Katz 57

    @Ileana: Seriously? What do I think of sending fake flirty messages to my spouse in hopes that she fails to fall for such entrapment? I think you’d have to be either a) paranoid, b) psychotic or c) in a really, really bad relationship to consider doing that.

58. Heather 58

    @ Wendy,

    I understand how you feel, I really do.  My aunt and uncle are a PRIME example of what you are talking about.  They married young, just outta high school.  Had 3 kids and I think 5-6 grandkids together.  They’d been together forever.  Until last year, when he decided to have some kind of midlife crisis, said that my aunt didn’t truly love him (my uncle really needs to see a shrink, he’s psycho), and walked out.  And has come back.  And walked out.  Done this back and forth thing, a few times.  Why my wonderful aunt hasn’t cursed this jerk out and sent him to the curb with the trash, I have no idea.

    But how was she to know, that he’d do this almost 40 years down the road?  It wasn’t like my uncle had a t-shirt with “Asshole” on it, when she met him.  My grandparents raised him with much better morals and values, and he was very active in church and whatnot (then again, thinking about that, that should have been everyone’s first clue, IMO).  I don’t know that she’d really had a bad “picker” it’s just that he flaked out, decided not to commit, and walked. 

    This isn’t to say that we women bear no responsibility in a relationship going wrong.  However, we can go in as best we can, make an educated leap of faith, and still have it go wrong.  And yes it hurts when we’re told we choose the wrong men.  I was stung when I met a guy, while going through my divorce, and things were going great.  My family loved him, friends thought he was pretty decent, we were doing fine.  Then, out of nowhere, I find out that his Mom was talking smack about me behind my back for being divorced, even though she knew I was a survivor of domestic violence.  It turned out that I had a total coward and Mama’s boy on my hands.  People told me that I picked the wrong man.  I sat there and went look.  I went in with good intentions, paid close attention for warning signs, didn’t see any glaring problems, and we had had a pretty healthy relationship. 

    It can sting when we’re judged like that, and folks don’t know the whole story.  Again, sure, we often do pick the wrong guy, absolutely.  But we aren’t going to see everything coming down the pike.

59. Ileana 59

    @Evan: Well, i didn’t say doing that in the hopes of her falling for it. Just as to observe the reaction. If she’d respond, wouldn’t that be a bad sign?

    This whole idea probably seems ridiculous, but just reading some of the comments in here makes me confused. Why would somebody, male or female, who is in a happy relationship and gets all their needs met, still feel the need to cheat? And why would they then pretend that they are soo close to their partner and romantic etc etc. ? 

    I. JUST. DON’T. GET. IT! Maybe i’m just too young and with really little experience in this area, but… wouldn’t it be A LOT easier to end the relationship and start a new one, instead of cheating?…

     

60. Clare 60

    @ Heather # 32

    I am with you on that. Cheating is a non-negotiable deal-breaker for me, and I have always known that. Guys I have been with have known that upfront as well.

    It may seem a little harsh to some, but in setting this boundary my goal is not to judge the other person, but just simply that I know myself, and I know that this is something *I* cannot come back from. There are many other things I can forgive and let slide, and I fully believe that each person has the right to set what is and isn’t a dealbreaker for him or her.

    (On that note, I was reading Evan’s post about Dan Savage’s take on the virtues of infidelity, and it ties in quite nicely with this post.) 

61. Ana 61

    @ Henriette: ”What should my small-breasted, brunette friend do when her boyfriend announces, loudly, at a dinner out with friends that he loooooves big-boobed blondes the instant the waitress fitting that description saunters away from the table?”
    That’s disgusting, I feel sorry for her…

62. Ellen 62

    Ana: There’s a local pizza place here that ONLY hires young girls with perfect figures. So transparent…..

    Oh, wait, NBC, CBS, CNN, Fox etc. do that also. But at least the old stereotype that good looking people can’t be intelligent is finally being laid to rest (for the most part anyway).

63. Heather 63

    @ Clare,

    You put it beautifully.  I know myself very well, and abuse and cheating are two that I will never be able to come back from.  Trust is very big for me and if that trust is violated in any way, well, sorry, it’s gone and probably won’t be back so why should I date someone I don’t trust.  Been there, and done that, and enough is enough now.  It’s time to do what Paige Parker calls “Dating Without Drama” and time to set good, healthy boundaries to protect my sanity.

    Judgment, well, I would just go so far as to say hey, what they did reflects upon some pretty serious character flaws, but it’s not my place to seriously wish them ill, or take revenge.  I’ve had a couple of cases where “the best revenge is living well” has worked beautifully for me. 

64. Mia 64

    Yes, a large number of men cheat- as I’ve posted before, I and every girl I know have been propositioned by attached guys. But I’m still not one of those cynical types that think all men cheat. I had a bf when I was younger who would have been great husband material – a nerdy 35 yo guy who had only had 11 sex partners, hardly any luck with women, and was kind, thoughtful, and was one of the only guys I’ve ever dated who didn’t make a big fuss over my looks. He never would have cheated. We broke up for legitimate reasons, but really, how many women want to date an honest, decent man like this ? They want a hotter, more exciting guy. If you go for more attractive types who have bedded a lot of chicks, what do you think is gonna happen? Men like Evan who have been serial daters and are good lookng flirts simply aren’t good bets – Evan himself may not cheat, as it would ruin his cred as a dating coach, but generally serial daters are not good bets. I dont feel like playing the alpha male lottery and frankly it’s like owning a white expensive coat – too much work to ensure it stays clean. Better to get the less stylish black pea coat on sale. 

65. Fluffilion 65

    I was in a relationship last year with similar situation. Although he had strings of unfortunate and short past relationships, he seems like a decent guy, and I thought his breakups were because he hasn’t met “the one”.  *Sigh * I thought I could change him when the time is right. 

    It started innocent enough, he needs time with the boys, liked lots of space, loved making new friends. Instead of spending lots of time with me he would rather go drinking with his friends. Later, he started to ask strange women he met at gatherings for their phone numbers and out to dinner secretly. Whenever I confronted him, he always says he is just making new  friends. I wasn’t comfortable about his action, but told myself I should trust him, and which successful and self-absorbed guy isn’t flirty or attracting to other women.  Again, I thought he would settle down when he finally  grows up and can start viewing a monogamy relationships as a bliss instead of burden. 

    Sad to say I was very surprised when he broke up with me for another woman after a year relationship.  He was just waiting for someone better to come along before he would leave me.  I agree with what Evan says– trust your gut feeling. Deep down I knew all along that he was looking to trade up, that’s why his behaviors were so disturbing to me.  When a relationship feels wrong, it probably is wrong.   

    The best relationship advice I would give myself is, besides attractions and personality,  find a man you can fully trust and love him unconditionally. 

66. Ruby 66

    @ Ellen: What makes you assume that Ana’s friend isn’t good-looking as well? Her boyfriend sounds like an an inconsiderate clod. And what should she do? Tell him, in front of their friends, that his behavior is unacceptable.
     
    Really, I’m not getting the “boys will be boys” mentality that claims that it is acceptable to leer at other women in front of your significant other. My boyfriend might comment that a certain celebrity is attractive, but he will not talk about her nice ass or boobs to me. Why would he think I would want to hear that?
     
     

67. Nicole 67

    Ugh, can we ever have these discussions without it turning into a post about how much men use and abuse women?  

    Seriously, some men cheat, some women cheat.  Some men are dishonest, some women are dishonest.

    The point is that you shouldn’t treat every man (or women) like a cad just b/c some are.  Keep your eyes open b/c people will always show you who they really are, even if SOME of them can hide it for longer periods of time than others.

    I personally think that flirts are not more likely to be cheaters since cheating involves hiding what you are like.  And it’s nice to be around people who make you feel good and I am capable of understanding that most people who flirt with me do not want to run away with me.  

68. helene 68

    Henriette: ”What should my small-breasted, brunette friend do when her boyfriend announces, loudly, at a dinner out with friends that he loooooves big-boobed blondes the instant the waitress fitting that description saunters away from the table?”

    Well, as a small boobed woman myself, what I would do in this situation is say ” God yes, David is crazy for big boobed blondes…. You know this one time, he drove over a senior citizen with his shopping cart in the mall when this booby blonde woman appeared -  the poor old man was crippled, we had to call an ambulance….” or something of that sort… At the end of the day, the guy is with the small breasted brunette, so how seriously interested in the blonde waitresses can he be??!   As even points out, its not really what men say its what the do that matters, and if this guy has chosen a small breasted brunette for a partner… well, it speaks for itself. Equally, as a woman, I might remark on a particularly fit looking 20 something guy in front of my partner, but at 47, I’d be quite staggered if he seriously took that to mean I wanted that young guy as my boyfriend – it would be simply absurd! Have some common sense, people!

69. Evan Marc Katz 69

    Thanks to Helene and Nicole for bringing us back to reality. If you think men are the enemy, you’re not only blind, but you’re likely to drive any good man away with your negative beliefs.

    I know this is a forum for advice – and with that, some venting is inevitable – but I’m always amazed at how anyone who fundamentally doesn’t trust men or is hypersensitive to real thoughts from real men (yes, like me) can function in a long-term relationship.

    My litmus test is that if you ever get mad at me (not disagree with me) for something I wrote here, I would pity anyone who has to date you. Chances are, you don’t care to understand men, listen to logic, or deal well when reality doesn’t conform to your fantasies about how things should be.

70. Ana 70

    @ Evan #69: I totally get what you’re saying and it is 100% true, but unfortunately trusting men after you’ve been ”burned” so much is easier than done. I don’t hate men, I don’t even like the word hate, and I don’t get mad, but women complain and are insecure for a reason… I do want a great, healthy, happy relationship, it’s just that the more experience I’ve got, the more I see and hear, the less I believe in men.
    @helene #68: Ok, he might be with the small-breasted brunette, but still it’s offensive and disrepectful… I don’t think people realize how much of a ”punch in the stomach” it can be. Plus, I think there are guys who are in relationships just for the sake of being in a relationship, and not ’cause they really love their girlfriends… I think a comment like that might leave Henriette’s friend wondering ”Why is he with me then? Does he even care about me?”, which causes terrible insecurities. I’m not saying he should think the waitress is ugly, but if she’s so relevant that he dhumiliates his partner because of her than you can’t expect the gf to be cool…

71. Ruby 71

    What men say matters if a the comment is demeaning or humiliating. There are people who are emotionally abusive who are never physically abusive, but that doesn’t make the emotional disrespect okay. Besides, the man going on and on about the waitress could ask her out quite easily. Maybe busty blonds have always been his fantasy partner, and he merely settled for the brunette, who knows? If making a joke about it suits you, great, but I wouldn’t just sit there in silence.
     
    The vast majority of my coupled friends have never cheated on their partners (to my knowledge), and never would. And no, I don’t hate men. I have a wonderful boyfriend (who was not easy to find, btw), and my best friend is a guy. It’s easy to be positive around by boyfriend because he’s kind and thoughtful. But not all men are created equal. Isn’t that the point of this blog? To find the nice guys and avoid the jerks?

72. Julia 72

    I would tend to agree with Ana and Ruby that a man who makes that comment is classless and likely emotionally abusive. No one who actually cares about their partner goes out of their way to embarrass them.

73. Hope 73

    As Ernest Hemingway wrote:
    “The best way to find out if you can trust somebody is to trust them.”

74. Paragon 74

    @ Katrina
     
    “David in my experience any man who flirts is easy pickings for a bit of naughty time!
    I have tested it and asked them straight if they would like a bj and not one has ever turned me down!
    Not one!”
     
    You are observing a biased sample – men who flirt with you.
     
    Which goes back to what I said about indications of infidelity being more conspicuous, and thus tending to dominate our perceptions.
     
    For the record, I don’t flirt – as I think doing so when attached is the height of boorishness.
     
    @ Ileana
     
    “Is it wise to ‘test’ your partner in such ways- Send him anonymous texts and see if he replies?”
     
    That depends on if you would define ‘cheating’ to include responding to anonymous texts.
     
     
    “Or is this just plain rude?”
     
    Only if it becomes obvious – and then it is more stupid then rude.
     
    But, if I was tested in this manner by someone I love, I can’t honestly say it would bother me(she would just be wasting her time).
     
    “Why would somebody, male or female, who is in a happy relationship and gets all their needs met, still feel the need to cheat?”
     
    Because, men want sex.
     
    Lots of sex.
     
    With lots of different women.
     
    Those with means and opportunities will exploit them, unless they are exceptions who are poorly sexually motivated, are risk averse(and feel their SO justifies their fidelity), or have been socialized to be sexually passive(ie. they were ugly ducklings who were discouraged through a history of rejection).
     
    “wouldn’t it be A LOT easier to end the relationship and start a new one, instead of cheating?”
     
    No, because they see their LTR as security to fall back on when the casual pickings are slim.
     
    @ Wendy
     
    “It’s not like they wear t-shirts with “CHEATER” on the front, so please tell me how I’m “choosing” players!”
     
    No one is telling you that.
     
    However, that is what YOU are telling us.
     
    “The bottom line is, I have to believe that there is a man out there who feels as strongly as I do that a solid, loving, respectful relationship is better than the “excitement” of a little on the side.”
     
    There probably is – one who is sexually passive, without options, or a risk averse male who will be satisfied not to risk your affections.
     
    The question is, will you be attracted to such a man?
     
    I think the limiting factor for all problems of relationship stability, is an increasing tendency to disassortative mating.
     
    Most single women I have observed(in the OLD demographic), are ignoring their nearest male equivalents in favor of interacting with more attractive options, even where these interactions are invariably short-term(they would rather play the longest odds, than make any concessions towards more stable interactions) – to these women, I would say that securing a LTR is evidently a low priority(even if they fail to realize it).
     

75. Evan Marc Katz 75

    @Paragon – Dude, get out of your black and white, biological evolutionary bubble.

    You said that the only man who believes in a solid, loving, respectful relationship is one who is “sexually passive, without options, or a risk averse male who will be satisfied not to risk your affections.”

    What are you, a lower mammal? A neanderthal who can’t override his biological impulse to spread his seed?

    There are millions and millions of married faithful men who stay faithful because what they GAIN from their monogamy is GREATER than the thrill of random sex and infidelity.

    It’s a choice, bro. I’m the first to acknowledge that I’m always attracted to other women. But as a sexually aggressive guy who had many options when he was single, it wouldn’t occur to me that throwing my marriage away for a cheap thrill would be a good idea.

    Stop trying to speak for good men who knew when to retire from screwing around and sincerely want to grow old alone with a life partner. Evidently, you don’t know crap about us.

76. Clare 76

    I have to say Evan, I so agree with you @ 75.

    My life is replete with good, solid men of integrity who would never dream of cheating on their wives, despite whatever biological impulses they might have. This is the model I was raised with, this is how my brothers were raised, and most of the guys I know. I have never been cheated on (to my knowledge).

    I can *only* speak from my own experience, I know, and not to deny the experience of others, but I would submit that faithful men are in fact everywhere you look  

77. David T 77

    @75
    Thank you, Evan. Yeah, it turns out humans are more than their lizard brain.  This gets swept under the rug in these blog discussions often when people lay out laws about how men and woman should behave  in dating situations “because we evolved that way.” huh?
     
    @71,72 and many others.
     
    You make a judgement based on your own perspective about what should bother a woman. Personally, I think it is boorish (as Paragon put it; heck, I will add to that, creepy) to loudly announce “I looooove big-boobed blondes” whether you have an attached relationship or not. There are  crowds/sub-cultures where that is OK.  I accept that. There are probably relationships where it is OK too.
     
    If this man’s girlfriend is not OK with it and she has communicated that to him and he behaves that way anyway, it is disrespectful and emotionally abusive.
     
    If a woman knows her guy loves her, is faithful and she is content with her body image, no matter what he admires physically, then that is not going to bother her. If it doesn’t bother her, it isn’t emotionally abusive.  
     
    Don’t automatically judge what should bother someone, just because it would bother you. That is presumptuous.
     

78. Paragon 78

    @ Evan Marc Katz

    “ What are you, a lower mammal? A neanderthal who can’t override his biological impulse to spread his seed?
    There are millions and millions of married faithful men who stay faithful because what they GAIN from their monogamy is GREATER than the thrill of random sex and infidelity.”

    But, that’s what I mean when I specify ‘a risk averse male who will be satisfied not to risk your affections’(I just had a more dispassionate way of describing this).
    
    I was not trying to conflate all three qualities that I recognized
    as contributing factors. 
    
    Also, I don’t consider ‘risk-averse’ as a derogatory characterization. 

    “ It’s a choice, bro. I’m the first to acknowledge that I’m always attracted to other women. But as a sexually aggressive guy who had many options when he was single, it wouldn’t occur to me that throwing my marriage away for a cheap thrill would be a good idea.”

    You won’t get any argument from me about this(again, I just have an alternate way of describing the factors that mediate these kinds of cognitive biases).  

    “Stop trying to speak for good men who knew when to retire from screwing around and sincerely want to grow old alone with a life partner. Evidently, you don’t know crap about us.” 

    I think you have misinterpreted what I have said, for which I must accept some blame.

    Still, I’m not certain we have any real disagreement here. 

79. Heather 79

    @ Ana,

    I can relate.  Which is why I love reading the dating blogs, because it makes me feel like now I have a good toolbox full of tools to handle dating and a relationship.  I feel less like a victim and now know how to set good boundaries, not allow a guy to trample all over me, and to hold out for the decent guys, not just the ones looking for a quick shag and run.

    It IS hard to trust after being burned, trust me I know.  But I’m learning how to do it, bit by bit.  It’s not easy and yes it is easy to jump to conclusions sometimes.  But not every guy is an asshole or a cheater.  Not every guy will break my heart.  It’s sure taken alot of wasted evenings with twits, to meet my guy, but hey there we are.  At least I’ve learned alot about myself along the way, had the opportunity to put what I have learned, into practice.  I never stood up to men, til two years ago.  I never said sorry but I won’t allow you to treat me like crap.  Now I am empowered, strong, and able to handle a guy.  Even nowadays, my current guy is rather snippy and cranky for whatever reason, and I used to get sick to my stomach, when a guy would do that. Now, I know it’s not about me, that is on them, and that it is more than OK to tell him, you are not allowed to talk to me like that.

80. Helen 80

    Evan, I think you and Paragon are actually seeing more eye-to-eye than you realize in these last two comments. Being a “risk averse male” is not a bad thing. In fact, it is a very good thing, as it shows the ability to reason and to decide what the best actions are in a given circumstance. You yourself demonstrate risk aversion in your next-to-last paragraph. You do, as you say earlier, override your biological impulse to spread your seed because you’re smart enough to realize that you achieve greater happiness and satisfaction by not “throwing my marriage away for a cheap thrill.”
     
    The way I see it, a man can be good, sexually aggressive, and risk averse all at the same time.  The last shows cleverness, which women always hold in high regard.

81. Mia 81

    I gotta agree with paragon here in some respects. A man who has fewer options is simply a wiser choice for marriage. Sorry, Evan, but sexually aggressive men with lots of options are not worth the risk for most women. SOME of you guys will be faithful, but it’s not a lottery that I’d ever want to play. Its obvious that you are a good guy and your wife is lucky to have you , but in general, who wants a guy that stuck his dick in 50 plus women and had a different girlfriend every month? Do I really want to wake up next to some alpha player for the rest of my life and have this guy raise my daughters? How do I trust such a man? I’d feel a lot better with a 6 who had some options but not too many options. 

82. Ruby 82

    David T #77
     
    Henriiette originally wrote (#15), “I don’t mind if my guy notices a pretty woman but what if it’s obvious to everyone in the room that he’s leering at her?  What should my small-breasted, brunette friend do when her boyfriend announces, loudly, at a dinner out with friends that he loooooves big-boobed blondes the instant the waitress fitting that description saunters away from the table?”
     
    To me, this didn’t sound like Henriette’s friend was okay with her boyfriend’s remarks. As you stated, if her friend was okay with it, and laughed it off, Henriette would probably shrugged off the behavior herself, and wouldn’t have posted about it here with the implication that it was problematic. Announcing something like this in front of friends is also an inconsiderate way to behave around those who might be made uncomfortable by that kind of talk, as Henriette was.
     
    As far as sexually aggressive men go, some guys sow their wild oats when they’re younger, but curtail that behavior as they get older and decide to settle down, whether they are very good-looking or not.

83. Ruby 83

    Actually, we don’t know for sure if Henriette was present or not, but if she wasn’t and her friend told her about it, the friend probably wasn’t too happy.

84. Wendy 84

    To Paragon #74 (and everyone else who says people “choose” cheaters and players: I am not telling you, or anyone, that I choose the wrong men. I do not have ESP, they do not announce their predisposition to cheat, and they don’t behave the way one would typically expect a cheater to act. The man I used in my example was home every night. I had zero indication there was anything going on. Many of us are completely blind-sided when we find out there’s another woman. So by your logic I could say that if you get into an auto accident on your way to work one day, it was your fault because you “chose” that route. The insurance companies would love that!

85. David T 85

    @Ruby 82 Henriette knows the situation with her friend and we don’t, so we must trust her judgement there.
     
     
    A generalization was implied and run with by the thread, leading to the conclusion that such behavior is always  abusive. I was addressing that generalization, not the case of Henriette’s friend and her bf(*) in particular. I was not trying to say her friend was not hurt by her b/f remarks. My use of the direct quote made my attack on the generalization ambiguous. 
     
     
    (*) The man does not know how to behave in public IMO.  I would be annoyed by hearing that (and would probably tell him so), even if I didn’t  know him and was sitting  across the room. Different people have different behavior standards. I manage to avoid being subjected to that kind of behavior by not hanging out with the kinds of people who (I imagine) frequent places like Hooters.

86. David T 86

    @Wendy
     Does he sample a grape at the grocery store. . . and then if it is good try another one and another one and another one?  Does he cheat on his taxes? Does he give people lame or no birthday gifts and then complain about what he gets? Was he compassionate? How ethical was he in his relationships with other people?  Did he show them one face and then in confidence disclose to you or others how he really felt?  Was he honest with them? 
     
    Some of that laundry list might seem like little things that have no bearing on a relationship but the fact is, if someone is dishonest in the little parts of their life, they might or might not be in the more important parts.  If they are compassionate and honest and open when it comes to little things, I would be very surprised if they are different when it come to the big ones that would hurt other people.

87. Karl R 87

    A few thoughts on various themes in this thread:

    Trust
    In my first serious relationship, my girlfriend cheated on me. In doing so, she destroyed trust in that relationship. Unlike that girlfriend, I have never cheated. This has led to the following insights…

    1. I am not an anomoly. There are others out there who don’t cheat.
    2. If a woman suspected me of cheating, I would be highly offended by the unjustified attitude.
    3. Since I would be offended by the suspicion, my girlfriends would be equally offended.
    4. If I want to date a woman of integrity, I need to treat women with the trust that I expect in return.
    5. By trusting my partners, I may end up being cheated on. While I won’t realize my partner is cheating, I will realize that something is wrong in the relationship.

    And there’s one insight that came from looking into the subject…

    Most people don’t cheat. However, most people don’t realize they’re capable of cheating until they do. Most cheating begins after the relationship is already in trouble. If you have a partner who has integrity, and you want to further reduce the potential for cheating, put effort into keeping the relationship strong.

    Self Esteem
    Based on my experience, Evan’s wife is demonstrating high self-esteem. I don’t care if my fiancée goes to La Bare and has a stripper grinding against her in a lap dance. She’s not going home with a stripper. If she was into strippers, she would have dated them.

    When she has lunch with an ex-boyfriend, it’s no problem. The man is an ex for a reason.

    My fiancée is with me because of who I am. If she wanted someone who was more like her exes, her coworkers or her other dance partners, she would have dated those people instead.

    Ileana asked: (#53)
    “Is it wise to ‘test’ your partner in such ways- Send him anonymous texts and see if he replies?  Or is this just plain rude?”

    I don’t know anyone who seeks out partners who are suspicious and paranoid. If a woman pulled this stunt with me, I’d dump her immediately.

    I can’t prove to a paranoid person that I’m trustworthy. I can only prove that I haven’t provided evidence of wrongdoing.

88. George 88

     
    I’m curious, Evan, as to whether you draw a distinction between people who are “understanding and trusting” and people who just don’t care. What, in your words, would be the difference between the two? I ask because your attitude sounds like that of a teenager who thinks he’s got cool parents because they let him do drugs in the house.
     

89. Rosy 89

    Gosh, there seem to be quite a few posters who draw issue with the lap dance. I like what Evan says in the article here:

    It’s not my place to say what’s right for you, but if you believe what I do – that both sexual contact and sexual intention can be considered cheating – then that becomes your tipping point.

    And everyone has their own boundaries and tipping points. Personally, I wouldn’t consider a lap dance cheating, if it was very occasionally (at the likes of stag parties and that kind of malarkey) but if it was every weekend, I wouldn’t exactly be over the moon. So therefore I have a boyfriend who – among his many admirable (and to my mind, much more important, stuff like kindness and generosity!) qualities – doesn’t go to lap dancing bars every single weekend. It’s that simple.

    If your own personal boundary is that you would consider it cheating if your boyfriend was on the receiving end of a lap dance, you just look for someone who wouldn’t receive a lap dance. Set your own boundaries; just be aware that the more restrictively you set them, the fewer people you’ll find who will fit your criteria. That’s not a dire warning, btw, it’s just the way it works.

    (FWIW, my ex husband found the idea of strip clubs and lap dances appalling, and even refused to go in a lap dancing bar on a friend’s stag party. And yet he was a miserable chap who was often horribly mean to me. Morality is about more than lap dances, you know.)

90. Wendy 90

    @DavidT #86: Thanks for your insight; I always appreciate your perspective on these forums. To answer your question, no–this particular guy would buy the grapes without sampling, from a local farmers market to support the local economy and reduce the carbon footprint on the planet, and then give the cashier a healthy tip. His birthday gifts were those of legend. He stopped traffic to let a turtle cross the street. He drank Dos Equis. Get the picture? I am actually pretty quick to run from guys who exhibit the types of behaviors you described. My theory is that life is too short to spend with the wrong guy, and I’m not getting any younger. I’m also pretty astute, according to my friends, at picking up on negative vibes. THIS is why I get so frustrated when people blame me for getting cheated on because I “chose” the wrong guy. It’s happened a few times, and every time it was a guy (a real winner); the type who would get the “upstanding citizen of the year” award, because I was never with dishonest, unethical, compassionless men (losers) long enough for them to cheat. Bottom line, losers can be completely faithful when they meet the right girl, and winners can cheat given the right opportunity so I refuse to blame myself for “choosing” the wrong men when I know I’ve been the best partner I could be, and he appeared to be the same, to me and to everyone else around me.

91. Evan Marc Katz 91

    George, against my better judgment I’m going to respond to your pseudo-respectful but really insulting question.

    You intimate that there’s no difference between “understanding and trusting” and people who just don’t care. I was going to suggest that perhaps you had a point – that trusting and not caring are the exact same thing. But that’s not true. It’s certainly easier to trust a charismatic, confident, flirtatious man if you literally don’t care whether he cheats on you. But that’s not really what we’re talking about here. This is about a) having inner confidence, b) believing that you’ve chosen a partner of integrity, and c) not overreacting to situations that don’t threaten to destabilize the relationship.

    If you don’t have inner confidence, EVERYTHING your partner does will be perceived as a potential threat. I had a girlfriend like that and it was exhausting – apologizing for smiling at 17-year-old cashier or looking at the Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue.

    If you don’t believe you’ve chosen a partner of integrity, everything your partner does will be perceived as a potential threat – because it IS. A proven cheater, a shady guy, a secretive boyfriend – all will rightfully raise your eyebrows. Most women know when they’ve got a good man or a bad man on their hands. It’s not a foolproof science, but the reason that my wife was able to trust me when she found strange panties in our dryer is because she knew I wasn’t the kind of man to cheat. It’s not that she didn’t care. It’s that she trusted me.

    Finally, if you don’t overreact to situations, you’re going to have a much healthier relationship than if you’re constantly accusing him, putting him on the defensive and walking on eggshells yourself because he wished his ex girlfriend a Happy Birthday on Facebook.

    Your conclusion, George, seems to be that my “permissive” attitude is toxic – the equivalent of having parents let him do drugs in his house.

    Well, since I have an incredible marriage that is based on trust, I find it hard to believe that my wife’s attitude is toxic to our relationship. So I challenge you – and any reader who disagrees with me – start treating your partner with LESS trust and let me know how it goes.

    I’ll take my way any day.

92. Karmic Equation 92

    @Rachael 17
    I’m sorry to hear about your divorce and the lying that caused it.
     
    Please don’t make the next man in your life pay for the sins of your ex.
     
    There are different degrees of trust. And I believe that each person we meet should be give an “average” amount of trust. When you get to know them better, you can trust them more or less depending on your actual experience with them. For example, you should not give the keys to your house to a stranger…but you can trust that if you ask for directions from the same stranger they won’t direct you to a crack house on purpose.
     
    Every new person you meet, man or woman, should be given the average amount of trust and respect. As you get to know them, then you can finesse the “amount” that you give them. And the amount is not static and could be subject-dependent. For example, you can always trust someone to be ontime, but you can’t trust this someone to keep a secret…So you have to know what to entrust that person with.
     
    I’m sure you do this all the time with family…the same kind of “trust-on-a-continuum” should be applied to your significant other and they shouldn’t get all your trust simply because they are your significant other. Only trust them with what you know they can be trusted with and play the rest by ear, and adjust your level ot trust to what know they deserve.

93. Karmic Equation 93

    @Ana 70
     
    It’s not a man’s responsibility to cure your insecurities or baby them. You have to deal with them yourself. Insecurities, as Helene said, comes from fear. Fear you’re not good enough; fear that you’re not pretty enough, etc. The reality is that Yeah, there are going to be women “better” than you (in something!) and there are going to be women prettier than you…new ones are born every day. If you don’t TRUST YOURSELF or LIKE YOURSELF enough to know that you bring to the table things these “better” and “prettier” women don’t, then, sad to say, it won’t matter if a man actually babies you and your insecurities. At the end of the day, your insecurities will STILL BE THERE. He just doesn’t give you reason to face them.
     
    Secondly, if you’ve told your man that you don’t like it when he says/does certain things and HE CONTINUES to do them, then LEAVE. He’s telling you unequivocally that he doesn’t care how you feel and you’re not worth changing for…So why stay with him? You’re not going to change him with your nagging or tears, in fact, you’ll more quickly drive him away. YOU HAVE POWER, too! You have the power to leave the jerk and take your fabulous self and your brand of loving to someone who actually deserves it. Don’t forget that. Addition by subtraction — gain dating freedom by losing a loser.

94. Clare 94

    @ Evan # 91

    I agree particularly with what you said ”Most women know when they’ve got a good man or a bad man on their hands”.  I do honestly believe that this is a sense that most women innately have, or can develop.

    It is the most important thing in developing trust in a relationship. No, I may not know exactly what my boyfriend is doing at all times, and yes, I may have a couple of insecurities of my own, but I know that pigs will sooner fly before he cheats on me.

    I *know* this, and hence I just breathe, and trust him. 

95. Selena 95

    @Wendy
    I find myself nodding my head while reading your posts. As someone who’s been cheated on by more than one partner, I could conceivably say I have a bad picker. Thing is…they didn’t cheat until 3 or 4 years into the relationship. So I had several years with each where I thought I HAD picked someone who had integrity, valued monogamy. And had I not found out about the cheating…I would have gone on believing that.

    @Karl #87
    Good post. I’ve also come to believe that where there is infidelity, there are almost always other problems in the relationship as well. Infidelity is sooo painful and dramatic, that it tends to overshadow those other problems – especially in the mind of the wronged party. And while I don’t think there are any surefire ways to “cheat-proof” a relationship, consciously trying to make it the place you both want to be and paying attention to what is going on with your partner emotionally, just may avoid the slippery slope. If something feels off, TALK about it.

    @Hope #73 – Thanks for sharing this quote:
    As Ernest Hemingway wrote:
    “The best way to find out if you can trust somebody is to trust them.”

    Really folks, it’s the only way.

    The alternative: being suspicious, jealous, controlling, paranoid, snoopy - it just eats you up inside. And will not only destroy your relationship, but your self-esteem as well.

96. Cat 96

    So many good points. I say the only way to learn to trust someone is to watch & allow them to rebuild trust with you (if it’s been broken which is my case). If they have never breached your trust in the first place then you still watch/allow them to build trust with you. I don’t think strip joints or watching porn or looking at other women are trust breakers, but hiding all those things or lying about them is a trust breaker.  Speaking from experience it wasn’t the particular action that broke my trust, but trying to conceal or deny them were. And now we are rebuilding trust again. Just don’t date jerks or fall in love with jerks…it’s too much work!

97. Nicole 97

    Yeah, seriously.  People think they can someone mitigate the risk to their feelings by playing super snoop.  There are people who really believe they are protecting their relationships by checking phones, reading emails, reading FB, etc.  But you can’t.  And you waste a lot of time and energy being insecure and paranoid if you choose to live that way.  I don’t see how those people have time to give anything positive to the relationships that they are so paranoid about “protecting.”

    You can’t keep yourself from falling down sometimes.  And it might happen more than once.  No one has a crystal ball.  We all have to play the game, keep our eyes open, and yes, take some lumps.  There is no way around it.  But I really think that everyone, man or woman, will eventually show you who they are if you let them.  And the best way to find out if you have a winner or a loser is to take a chance and trust them.

     

98. George 98

     
    @Evan 91
     
    I didn’t say that trusting and not caring are the same thing, I’m trying to say there is a difference between parents who would let their kid have a small glass of wine with dinner, and parents who let them do drugs in the house. At some point, if anything goes, it’s because it’s just not important to you.
     

99. Paragon 99

    @ Wendy

    ” To Paragon #74 (and everyone else who says people “choose” cheaters and players: I am not telling you, or anyone, that I choose the wrong men. I do not have ESP, they do not announce their predisposition to cheat, and they don’t behave the way one would typically expect a cheater to act. The man I used in my example was home every night. I had zero indication there was anything going on. ”

    ” To answer your question, no–this particular guy would buy the grapes without sampling, from a local farmers market to support the local economy and reduce the carbon footprint on the planet, and then give the cashier a healthy tip. His birthday gifts were those of legend. ”

    Obviously, these are not reliable indications of fidelity.

    “I’m also pretty astute, according to my friends, at picking up on negative vibes. THIS is why I get so frustrated when people blame me for getting cheated on because I “chose” the wrong guy. It’s happened a few times, and every time it was a guy (a real winner); the type who would get the “upstanding citizen of the year” award”

    Perhaps you should be looking for less obvious patterns, to relate your experiences with cheating men.

    Were they ‘unhappy’ with you, or just looking for something different(or better)?

    Perhaps these men were merely overconfident and opportunistic – willing to risk what they had for a new infatuation.

    I think sometimes, too much of a conventionally good thing(ie. confidence) can pose high-risks for any relationship.

    Ideally, we all want to be partnered with someone who has sufficient apprehension to resist temptation, and constrain their most selfish impulses(even in cases where we would be none the wiser).

    @ Selena

    “ Thanks for sharing this quote:
    As Ernest Hemingway wrote:
    “The best way to find out if you can trust somebody is to trust them.”
     
    Really folks, it’s the only way.
     
    The alternative: being suspicious, jealous, controlling, paranoid, snoopy - it just eats you up inside. And will not only destroy your relationship, but your self-esteem as well.”

    Personally, if I am sincerely motivated in nuturing a relationship with someone, then I’m willing to accept some degree of suspicion and uncertainty during the formative stages – before trust can be reasonably justified.

    Everyone has baggage, and I am not prepared to fault someone for what I see as trivial preconceptions that can be amended over time – I think any woman worth being in a relationship with, is worth that kind of consideration.

100. Evan Marc Katz 100

     George – I still don’t see your point. Who here said “anything goes”?

101. George 101

      
     “Anything goes” seems to be the direction this is heading. Let’s take the panty story, and lets say it happened again. It happens multiple times. Or let’s say it’s a used condom that you swear up and down was left by your male friend who brought his girlfriend over. Now she is okay with all of it, because she is wonderful and understanding. Does that sound right to you?
      

102. Evan Marc Katz 102

     This will be my last response to you, George, but in case you can’t see the difference: my wife is cool, patient and understanding. She’s not a moron.

103. George 103

      
     Take you and your wife out of this for a minute, Evan, and just look at this in the abstract. I’m just not buying the notion that “Sure honey, you can spend the night at the house of that girl who always flirts with you, since you’re just friends” means she is caring and understanding.
      

104. Evan Marc Katz 104

     George, I don’t know how stupid you think people are – or how loose you think my morals are – but there’s a huge difference between talking to a stranger at a party and spending a night with that same stranger. One is normal. The other is infidelity. Anyone who can’t figure out which is which will have major relationship problems. Sorry, I’m not continuing this absurd slippery slope you’ve set up.

105. George 105

      
     I didn’t set up the slippery slope, Evan, you did, by saying she is supposed to be patient and understanding when she finds… well, pick your piece of evidence. I just don’t see that as a virtue. If she really cares, she SHOULD freak out if she thinks I might be cheating on her…
      

106. Evan Marc Katz 106

     a) George, you’re clearly not a man, but a woman who came here to pick a fight. Well done.

     Whatever you’re advocating makes zero sense. If a man’s done nothing wrong, there’s no reason to freak out. If he has done something wrong, she should leave. But she should certainly have her facts straight before she does anything. My wife knows that I’m not cheating on her when I talk to other women or admire other women. And thus we have a good marriage. If she reacted to my bachelor party (where I didn’t cheat), to my many Facebook friends (where I didn’t cheat), to my occasional online porn use (where I didn’t cheat), we’d have a really bad marriage. If she wants a man who doesn’t do any of these things, she shouldn’t have married ME.

     And so…

     b) Feel free to choose a partner who freaks out at you instead of trusting you. As it stands, I’m pretty happy with my choice (as is my wife) and will continue to strongly recommend that ALL men and women choose trusting and low-drama partners.

     This ridiculous non-conversation is over. Best of luck to you and your fantasy boyfriend who never talks to other women and really digs the fact that you freak out because you CARE so much.
     
     (George, I deleted your last comment after showing it to my incredulous wife. The huge leaps that you’re taking between my wife being cool with my behavior and people doing drugs, being openly cheated on and your son getting kidnapped…well, let’s just say that we’re gonna have to agree to disagree.)

107. David T 107

     @Selena 95
     make [your relationship] the place you both want to be and paying attention to what is going on with your partner emotionally, just may avoid the slippery slope. If something feels off, TALK about it.
     Rockin’ . I completely, completely agree. Talk before you jump to conclusions if you can, and if you can’t turn off that machinery (which is a challenge) at least talk before you make a decision to change something.
     

108. George 108

      
      
     Actually, I think you’re being extremely small (bet you’ve heard that before), deleting other people’s postings when you loose the argument. I think I made my point, and I think you understand perfectly clear what that point is, hence your unwillingness to go further on this.
      
      

109. Evan Marc Katz 109

     George, I let your last comment through because it was a perfect ending. You insulted me, you misspelled “lose”, you said you made your point and that I understand it, and you intimated that I was afraid to go forward because of the strength of your argument. I’ll let readers decide for themselves if your arguments make any sense. Goodbye and good luck.

110. Selena 110

     Bored with George.

111. David T 111

     @George

     You are over generalizing/over extending one story and example to apply to absolutely everything.  That seems to be a common problem on this blog; the over extension of a point into hyperbole land concluding that if the over extension doesn’t make sense NONE of it does.

     It is like a metaphorical black hole.  Once you start to extend something past where it makes sense (like what happens to Newtons laws of motion once you cross the event horizon of a real black hole), you ultimately end up at a logical singularity where you can draw pretty much ANY conclusion and the legitimate point Evan is trying to make no longer makes any sense at all.

     Stay outta that region. You will only hurt yourself.  OK, that made about as much sense to folks with a non astronomy background as some of the posts of another frequent poster, but to get some inkling read paragraphs 2 and 4 of the link on my name.)

     Very much like a black hole,  these over generalized conversations quickly lose any ability to communicate useful information. (If you want to continue to use my metaphor, read the last section of that link.)

     Hmm…I seem to have overextended my metaphor to a point where it no longer makes sense and has become useless. Now where have I seen that before?

     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole#Singularity

112. Cat 112

     @ Evan #91….you were so exactly right on the money with your comments there. When reading it I felt like I was reading about myself. Yep, if you don’t have inner confidence & you’re not sure you picked a partner of integrity then everything they do seems like a potential threat. After years of trying to rebuild trust, I think we have come a long way, but it’s not been easy or fun at times. I think now I have finally built back some inner confidence in myself as well as with him. I do trust him on certain levels but I think there are different “layers” of trust? Any thoughts? Do you think there are “layers” of trust or is it you do or you don’t?

113. Heather 113

     @ Evan,

     You just hit home with me on something when you were responding to George, in regards to “making sure you have your facts straight.”  That’s exactly it.  I try to do that in relationships, and probably did TOO much of it in my last one, where my ex was constantly hanging out with HIS ex.  A few of my friends asked me straight up if I thought he was cheating.  I really didn’t have concrete proof, so I never accused him of it. Did I have some funny gut feelings that there was more going on than I was being told?  Oh surely. But since I could not clearly back it up, I held my peace and watched for other signs of problems, and boy oh boy did those signs pop up.

     I do admit that I have a bit of a suspicious personality, which I am working hard on, and it is getting better.  And because I know I am a bit suspicious due to men in my past pulling some pretty big stunts, I have to remind myself, “Heather, you already know you’re sensitive in that area. Put on the brakes, look at the FACTS.  If the facts truly do add up to: he’s cheating or lying, OK fine, as long as you have those facts straight, move forward with dumping his ass and go on.  But if you’re just having a gut feeling, try to hold off on just blasting him with both barrels, until you are SURE something is wrong.”

     I’ve learned that truth will always prevail, and if a guy is pulling something, I will find out about it sooner or later, I don’t need to be a snoop.

114. Wendy 114

     @Heather #113: I think I’m a lot like you, so your post hit home. I’ve been cheated on (as we probably all have at some point), and I don’t always have the healthiest self-esteem (although I’m much better than I used to be) so I sometimes find myself knee-jerking when my gut gets that little feeling. But I’ve learned to wait until actual EVIDENCE shows up. Most of the time (now, in my more recent realtionships) it doesn’t. I’ve come to realize that if a guy is doing something behind my back, he gets lazier as he comes to care more about “her” than about me, and the evidence becomes easy to find (no snooping required). I hate that I have to wait, but I think it’s better than risking a good relationship if there’s nothing going on.

     @KarlR #87: I LOVE your point about a person who cheats ruining that relationship. We’ve heard it before: “Don’t let a bad past relationship (or person) ruin a new one,” but somehow the way you put it makes much more sense. Bob ruined my relationship with Bob, and Jim ruined my relationship with Jim. Plain and simple. Thanks.

115. Amber 115

     @Evan – I really love this article and it’s very helpful and empowering to me.  Thank you! I’m wondering what you suggest (and others are welcome to comment on this as well) if I trust my guy, but not this new girl he is friends with.  He met her through work and he really respects her and they have a lot in common, and so now they are friends.  He has not done anything inappropriate, and he has gone out of his way to introduce me to her and wants me to be friends with her too (good sign), but for some reason I have a terrible gut feeling about her (that she wants my man and that she is trouble).  She is single and attractive, which is extremely troubling to me.  I have told him my feelings on this.  He reminds me that she’s been nothing but nice to me (which is not even totally true, she does subtle things like if the three of us are talking she will only make eye contact with my boyfriend and not with me at all), and he doesn’t understand why I feel this way.  Is it women’s intuition (and if that is the case what can I do besides share my concerns with him)?

116. Sam 116

     Evan,

     I have a similar history to your wife’s where I have been cheated on several times. “I am not going to let it define me, and I am not going to punish my current boyfriend for what a past boyfriend(s) did to me.” This is the motto I (TRY TO) live by. I realize that it’s not fair to punish someone for someone else’s actions. However, I am finding that I struggle at times in doing this.

     What suggestions do you have on how to actively work on this while you’re IN a relationship? I am with a great guy who is great BECAUSE he calls me out on things when I am out of line (might sound crazy but I LOVE this). He treats me great but I definitely have insecurities that stem from my past. I have my moments where I let these insecurities creep in.

     When I found your blog it COMPLETELY changed the way i looked at my relationship in an AMAZING way. It felt like I “got” it for the first time.

     My question is: Can I repair any damage it might have caused (before reading your blog? unfortunately I saw it a little too late.. if the answer is yes..how so? Is there anything else I can do besides actively working on controlling/suppressing these tendencies?

     Thanks for writing! Reading your blogs REALLY help me check myself into place too!  
      

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