How Can I Tell How Attractive I Really Am?

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Hi Evan,

I have been reading your blog for over a year now and I have also bought your book Why He Disappeared. I enjoy a lot of the advice and generally agree with most of it.

You generally maintain the reason why people are single is they over-assess themselves and rate themselves higher than what they originally are. Like a 6 thinking she is an 8. So my question today is basically this: how do you correctly analyze yourself? I always feel like asking people I am around (good friends, coworkers etc.) but I am scared it might ruin things/make things uncomfortable and basically they might tell me what I want to hear.

So is there an objective way to quantify yourself so that you are clear in where you stand? –Sharon

Thanks for the self-aware question about not being entirely self-aware.

I’ve always used a metaphor to describe people and their attractiveness ratings.

Think of it like a clothing store.

You’re introducing a new brand of milk. It’s no different than anyone else’s 2% milk, but it’s your unique packaging. You’re targeting wealthy people who want the best of the best in everything. To that end, you price your milk at $10/gallon.

Nobody buys it.

Does anyone that you want to date want to date you back?

There’s nothing wrong with the milk. It’s just not finding its target market.

You lower the price to $9. $8. $7. $6. $5…

Your mind is blown because you thought that your milk was different and special and it turns out that no matter how strongly you felt about your unique brand, other people – your buyers – only valued it at a lesser rate.

It’s basic supply and demand and it’s about the only way to see what your value is.

Sure, you can put your face up on HotOrNot or buy one of those Ugly iPhone apps to gauge your “scientific” attractiveness rating. But that’s not particularly telling.

More telling is this: does anyone that you want to date want to date you back?

If not, you’re overestimating yourself, no matter what “number” you think you are.

Listen, we overestimate ourselves because it’s necessary. No one would want to wake up in the morning, thinking that she’s ugly, stupid, mean, and has bad taste in clothing, music, and décor. But if you look around, there are a lot of stupid, ugly, mean people with bad taste, aren’t there?

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188 Comments »Filed Under Online Dating

188 Responses to “How Can I Tell How Attractive I Really Am?”

Heather 1

Evan, I really liked this entry, it’s really interesting.

I think this is true for EVERYONE online, men and women. I’ve heard some horror stories from guys, and I’ve had my share of guys who really thought they were something and when I’d politely respond with, “Thanks, but I’m not sure this will work”, I got some pretty verbally abusive responses to where I had to contact the site admins and flag them.

I’m not expecting a 10, since I am not a 10 myself, but if you’re really a 4, please don’t go online and tout yourself as a 10 and get angry if those of us who see through it, decline to get on board the BS bus. Honesty is one heck of a lot more refreshing than lying. I went out with a number of guys who were balding or greying, because they were gracious and humorous about it, and never tried to hide it.

If only everyone could act like this, dating would sure be alot less stressful, IMO!
CaitlinElise 2

Evan,
This is so right on, positivity and a great personality make any man or woman more attractive. Confident people GLOW. That is attractive all on it’s own. Thanks for serving up reality to all of us who need to be reminded.

This was great.
Trenia 3

The one thing that topples this theory is that human behavior and desire are often unpredictable. I was waiting in the airport security line yesterday when I saw a really attractive woman standing behind me who was about 5’10″ and wearing a tank top embroidered with the word “bride”. When I saw the guy standing behind her I just thought she was going to her bacherlorette party, and so did the women standing in front of me because they commented on it. Well, come to find out this 5’10″ bombshell just married this older man, who seemed a little rough around the edges and a few inches shorter than her.

Relationships aren’t always that scientific down to the number, and who decides who’s a 9 and who’s not? This is further complicated by people who date outside of their race. There was a really awful article that came out several months ago in Psychology Today that said black women are the least attractive women while black men are seen as the most attractive, and all hell broke loose; Psychology Today got so much heat for it they took the article down. Should a smart, well-educated woman date the guy who sells her her morning paper at the newsstand simply because he’s the one who’s showing interest in her and the men at her office do not?

I’m a plus size woman, and if I had a penny for every time someone told me that some guy wouldn’t date me because I was a big girl I would be rich. The men may not come in droves, but they do come. A lot of plus size women struggle with this because the automatic assumption is if you’re fat then you can only date a fat man, and that’s just not true. I don’t know, I think it’s a little bit more complicated than pairing the 6′s with the 6′s and the 10′s with the 10′s.
SB 4

Excellent article. Yes, sure thing – confidence is the key, male or female.
Kathleen 5

Evan ,
I think thats a valuable article that helps me keep perspective for online dating. Ive been amazed at the delusion of some of the guys that contact me however Im sure my age 53 and height , 6 foot, are detractors for me also
I like the idea of testing who responds since I seldom send emails.
I was disappointed the hot 45 year old black guy didn’t respond but your article helped me laugh and overcome the pain of rejection LOL
a regular 6

Evan, would you please extend this advice and comment on breast size? I feel like this is a factor on relative attractiveness “value,” but I haven’t heard anyone objectively comment on it.

I am a fit woman with a body like a model (trim with curves and not emaciated) except smaller. Nothing sags and I have a good waist to hip ratio. Thing is, I have a small frame and small breasts to go with it. How much of a deal is this? It seems like many guys are into large breasts nowadays. How much impact does breast size have on attractiveness levels in your opinion? What about in sunny climates?
Holly 7

I have a man interested in me who thinks my theory of “The Perfect 5″ is ridiculous. I think I’m being fair when I categorize myself as a 5, and am therefore looking for a 5. I believe dating too far up (or down) from where you fall on the scale is a recipe for disaster. I would say he’s a 9 (very attractive, makes good money, and has let me know that he’s had many beautiful women in his past). So why would a 9 want to date a 5? He’s just going to leave the minute another 8 to 10 walks on the scene, isn’t he?
Paula 8

Bottom line: beauty is in the eye of the beholder
Karl R 9

Sharon asked:
“how do you correctly analyze yourself?”
“So is there an objective way to quantify yourself so that you are clear in where you stand?”

There’s no objective way to quantify yourself. Evan’s subjective method (explained above) is probably the most systematic way to do so in an online environment.

To put it simply, where you stand varies from person to person, for a number of reasons. So you want to find a person who values you highly and who you value highly.

Finding someone who values you highly:
This is why Evan recommends doing reverse searches. Start with the people who are interested in you. If you have mainstream appeal (young and attractive woman / attractive and successful man), this is going to be a lot of people. If you lack that mainstream appeal, you’ll have to find the people you do appeal to. What are the traits that draw people to you? Who is drawn to them?

Finding someone who you value highly:
If you’re attracted to people who have mainstream appeal (young and attractive women / attractive and successful men), then you’ll be competing against almost everyone. If the people you find attractive aren’t mainstream, you’ll have significantly less competition. Are there any traits that have broad appeal that you can do without (or do with less of) in a partner?

The easiest way “to be clear where you stand” is to meet people face to face. That way you can see how the person is directly responding to you. Online, look at your inbox to see who is messaging/responding to you. In either case, only the “top end” matters.
Kathleen 10

Holly Ive always found it interesting when a guy has to share that he’s dated very beautiful women/ models/Ms Tropicana. It makes me wonder how insecure they are Most women underestimate their attractiveness where as men seem to overestimate it . I would speculate that he might be less than a 9 , you more than a 5 and he’s insecure.
Heather 11

Holly, you know, you might have a point there, about dating too far up or down on the scale from where you think you are. I guess I’d put myself at a 7 if I really had to sit down and work it all out, but I tend not to go for the 9-10 guys. Especially because I found out that a few of those guys that look hot, are actually scammers, yes guys, we girls get scammed too, LOL.

A former boyfriend definitely fits your theory as well. He was maybe a 5 and that’s on a good day, and I’m not trying to be snarky, but he was short, bald, and looked a LOT like George Costanza. Anyways, he’d lied to me about his height, and then whined about how hard it was to have found me, so many girls were so shallow, etc. He ended the relationship because his parents didn’t like me for being divorced, and from what my friends who run into him tell me, he is still lying about his height, whining about why he can’t meet a “nice, not shallow, not flaky girl”. If he’d just been honest, and not so entitled and pushy, he’d have done probably just fine. It wasn’t like he was an ogre or anything, but he was very unrealistic about his looks.
Kathleen 12

The scale is an interesting concept My ex husband was extremely good looking If we went anywhere people would think he was an actor/ athlete etc and if we were overseas they wanted his autograph and would insist he was incognito. Women were always checking him out. He liked that I was bright and athletic LOL !!!
My neighbor, a wise Japanese woman, told me never again to be with a man who was better looking than me. Im hoping not to make the same mistake. Thats not likely lately Ha!!
Spiral 13

Insightful and timely, Evan!
I completely agree that a bright personality can increase a person’s attractiveness quite a lot. But the converse is true as well: being gorgeous and cranky can totally bring your number down.
When on the dating sites, I remind myself to READ, not just look. Then I remind myself that not all guys are great communicators or can spell. Then I remind myself that I don’t have to have absolutely everything in common with the guy and it’s okay if he’s into sports even if I’m not.
Then I strike up a conversation and see where it goes.

For those thinking their personality doesn’t shine through on their dating profile, you can always make a video and post the link. Not all sites allow this, but there are some sites that have sections designed specifically for it too.

Good luck and chin up, everyone.
Holly 14

Kathleen/Heather, thanks for your insight. It’s funny now that I think about some of the men I’ve dated in the past. I’ve intentionally sought out the short/fat/bald guys (those I consider 5s) because I figured we’d be a good match; he’d appreciate me even though I’m overweight and no model, and I wouldn’t have to worry about other women chasing him around. Well, now that I look back I realize that most (if not all) of these men had been married to gorgeous women or ended up cheating on me with gorgeous women, so maybe the scale doesn’t mean anything after all. If they can get good-looking women, I’ll take a shot at a good-looking guy for a change!
Rudy37lee 15

I’m definitely on the same page as Evan here, I think his description is quite accurate. If you glance around at couples, for the most part, they are about equal in attractiveness to one another. So, going for a 7 if you feel you are a 7, makes a lot of sense. That will only take you so far though. Attraction truly can’t be whiddled down to something so simple as numbers 1 through 10, people are far to complex for such a simple system. For people who are genuinely confused about where they stand, though, it’s a good starting point. Some of my girlfriends have dated guys that they think are gorgeous, and I think are just ‘ok’. I’m sure I’ve dated guys who I thought were dead sexy and they didn’t agree either. So my 10 might be your 7, or vice versa. It only has to be ‘real’ between the two of you. If 10 guys say I’m a 5 and you think I’m a 10, as my boyfriend, then that’s what matters to me. It’s when people are so full of themselves, arrogant, or BLIND that they really think they are gods gift to the opposite sex that they can date a super model. Well, that’s just pretty dense . . . I highly doubt you’re going to make much progress with someone as clueless as that. If you have a decent amount of self awareness, it really shouldn’t be so difficult to figure out where you stand in the attraction arena.
Michael17 16

I agree with Trenia #3. In fact, I was going to write something similar, and then I read her post.

I’m a guy, and I’m not physically attracted to every woman whose physical beauty rates “9″ or “10″ (going by society’s general concensus). In fact, there are many such whom I am NOT attracted to. And yet, I am attracted to some “6″s or “7″s. Thing is, I have a physical type.

Trenia, to many guys, you might be just what they are looking for physically. Not “the best they can reasonably hope for”, but actually “just what they are looking for”. And some of these guys could very well be what society considers “9″s and “10″s.

That said, I do get the basic concept of what you are saying, Evan, and I agree with a lot of it. A 50-year-old woman who is holding out for an “in-demand” 35-year-old man can expect to be waiting quite a while. I just think that there also has to be accounting for individual tastes too.
Heather 17

Holly, yeah I hear you, it doesn’t hurt to take a shot at guys we think are pretty good looking. I remember when the George Costanza lookalike ended our relationship after informing me that Mommy told him to end things, I thought, wow, so much for my giving a guy a chance whom I wasn’t sure was my type. I was just bitter at the moment and really hurt.

My current guy is a fellow I “typically” would not go for, but when I saw his smile, and pictures of his family dog with him, and after a few conversations, I realized that he was definitely worth talking to, and see where it went. And here we are five months later. He’s a really good man and sure, I’d love it if he read more, didn’t watch “Major League” EVERY daggone weekend, and were a bit more quiet, I still wouldn’t trade that for a guy who was well read, watched more “in depth movies” and was more quiet, who would not treat me like gold.
Karl R 18

a regular asked: (#6)
“How much impact does breast size have on attractiveness levels in your opinion?”

If the man likes large breasts, it has a big impact. If a man likes small breasts, it has a big impact. If a man likes all breasts, it has very little impact.

a regular asked: (#6)
“What about in sunny climates?”

Why would the climate make a difference? Breasts don’t grow (or shrink) when exposed to direct sunlight.

Holly asked: (#7)
“So why would a 9 want to date a 5?”

Physical attractiveness isn’t the primary quality he (or she) is looking for.

My fiancée is primarily attracted to intelligence and sense of humor. If a man is “a 9″ in both of those traits, he’s a 9 to her (even if he looks like ten miles of bad road).

Holly asked: (#7)
“He’s just going to leave the minute another 8 to 10 walks on the scene, isn’t he?”

I remember the best-looking woman I ever dated. Our first date was two long. I did not ask her out for a second date.

If someone is genuinely interested in you, that means they are interested in you.

I know several couples where one partner is significantly more attractive than the other. After getting to know them, it was obvious that the less attractive person was the genuine “catch”. Don’t place too much importance on appearance.

Holly said: (#7)
“I believe dating too far up (or down) from where you fall on the scale is a recipe for disaster.”

Dating someone who is not kind (or to whom you’re not kind) is a recipe for disaster. Dating someone whom you cannot get along with is a recipe for disaster. Dating someone who you think is “too far up the scale” merely makes it more likely that you’ll overlook poor behavior.
Trenia 19

Michael17 #3, I agree 100%. I’m glad I’m not the only one who sees it this way.
Holly 20

Heather, I’m so with you! I have several friends who have been doing the online dating thing right along with me, and I see them pass over guy after guy because they’re “beneath them,” or don’t meet every single one of their requirements: (MUST be under 40, earn six figures, 6’2″, 180 lbs., six-pack, know the words to every Marilyn Manson song, hate sports, no dogs, no kids, etc., etc.) Give me a break! I’ve been burned my fair share (by 5s AND 9s–I guess we ALL have), but my best relationships have always been with guys who my friends would never have considered and frequently tried to talk me out of (“You can do better.”) Better than a guy who’s kind and good to me and goes out of his way to make sure I’m happy? Huh? Meanwhile I have a 9 just waiting for me to pull the trigger and they’re still sitting at home, alone. Hmm…think I just answered my own question here. Think I’ll go on a date tonight!
Holly 21

Thanks for the perspective, Karl R #18. I may be too afraid of getting burned again and have been looking for reasons and making excuses to avoid it. It’s nice to know there are people out there who are willing to overlook a few physical flaws in exchange for laughter, kindness, and genuine loyalty. Your fiancee is a lucky girl!
Helen 22

Karl R: “Breasts don’t grow (or shrink) when exposed to direct sunlight.”

Thank you for the biggest laugh I have had in a number of days.

More to the point of this thread: Why even ask this question “How can I tell how attractive I really am?” Every person will be attractive to some types and unattractive to others, and it doesn’t always relate to appearance. Why attempt to put this on a quantitative scale: just for vanity’s sake?

Apart from which: back in the days I was dating, both incredibly handsome men and ugly men asked me out. Apparently they both thought I was the appropriate attractiveness level for them. I really don’t think there is any objective scale. There is such a wide range of tastes, and to attempt to limit yourself by numbers, you may cut out a lot of people who may be right for you.

The best you can do for yourself is to BE yourself, happily and proudly and confidently. Instead of only relying on online sites, also take the time to meet people regularly in person.
Melle 23

First off, online is a poor representation of people,because everyones different in real life. I get hit on regularly but with online dating, I get an average of 3 emails every 2 months….go figures. Whereas I may seem like a 4 online, Im actually a higher (subjective) number in real life. Or so it seems as I get hit on by a number of attractive, well-off men.

Also, confidence is over-rated. I like a term Ive read on a different site and the idea is to be ‘comfortable.’ Ive been on dates with men overflowing with egoistic confidence that turned me off and with men who were COMFORTABLE with who they are (vs. confidence) that was such a turn on. They were shy, easygoing, but had a comfortable charm about them that made them attractive. Confidence is simply over-rated.
Katherine Wakefield 24

To get your personality across in a photo online is incredibly hard to do. If you meet face to face you are making an unconscious assessment of your potential date from personality to physical attraction. You don’t have this in online dating.
I don’t always judge the photo, i look at the email where the personality can shine through. But again sometimes this dosen’t translate. Some people don’t communicate well by email. I’ve had dates who haven’t been adept at emailing but on the phone its been like talking to a different person! I’ve been on dates where they have been adept at emailing but when meeting in person it just wasn’t there.
Trust your instincts they won’t let you down. If you are looking for the perfect 10 you will never find them. If you look for flaws you will find them. If you look for faults you will find them. Look for the positives and you may just find the date that you have been waiting for!
JM 25

This is a timely post. I’ve dated men up and down the looks spectrum, and generally speaking, the men who contact me online are maybe 5s, with a couple higher and lower sprinkled throughout. Personality and intelligence are HUGE for me and this is what’s missing in online dating. It doesn’t do me any favors (as someone who can take time to get to know) and it doesn’t do the men any favors, either.

Sometimes when I see someone online I think of some of the guys I work with who, when I first met them I didn’t think twice about them. But then, after getting to know them, I find them quite attractive and have grown to like them. That way, I’m reminded that just because someone doesn’t have a good photo, they could still be a great catch. However, there are just some looks I cannot stand, so that often stands in the way of giving someone a chance. Namely, facial hair. I think it’s disgusting!

My ex was in the 8-9 range and I don’t wish him on my greatest enemy. Yet, he is always in a relationship. Most of the really good-looking men I’ve dated are quite flawed, actually. And most of the really good-looking women I know also have some serious issues.
Ruby 26

Melle #23

“Comfortable” is fine, but it’s often hard to feel comfortable if you lack confidence. Confidence doesn’t have to mean arrogance. Truly confident people feel good about themselves without egotism.
Leesa 27

in evan’s “pitty the pretty” posting that he did a while ago, he talks about pretty women not being able to attract decent guys because the decent guys generally don’t bother going there, and so the pretty women often get the creepy guys who don’t care if they get rejected and will shamelessly have a go. where does this fit into pretty women being able to judge their realistic attractiveness to men? thanks for any comments in advance.
Tash 28

If you take a look at the book ‘why women want love & men want sex’ by Allan & Barbara Pease, they have a very good section to work out your ‘mating rating’. A fantastic read & good base for dating in general.
Angie 29

Online dating profiles are such a terrible gauge of attraction anyways. I found that men who spent so much time putting up great photos and writing witty responses to everything were better in the marketing. Men who had a few nice, casual photos of them being real and wrote straightforward, genuine, and pretty mundane responses to the dating questions were in fact, better in real life (for the most part).

As far as real life is concerned, though, I’d start putting myself out there as much as possible and always trying to look your best. So, if you are a 6 in (a) flip flops and a sweatshirt, and an 8 in (b) nice boots and a sweaterdress and some mascara, go for outfit b, even if it’s just to the grocery store. (I’ve tried this, it works). Smile a lot and joke with people. Go to Memorial Day or 4th of July bbq’s, networking events, etc. If men aren’t finding you attractive in person at your most attractive, then whatever! His loss!

You are either someone’s type or you aren’t, but you should give them every reason to find you attractive and go from there.
MAXINE 30

Evan, as usual you are correct in your thinking. Thanks for all your wonderful insightful comments. Yes, we all do listen and take heed!

Thanks Karl (#18) for your delicious insight! I am still laughing. You are correct on all points.

Still Looking!!!
Zaq 31

Since PHYSICAL attractiveness is critical, it really should come up more on this blog.
Let me make this clear “beauty is NOT in the sight of the beholder” – for men. All studies show that most men show a consensus on what they consider physically attractive.
Other than comparatively few outliers, the majority of men are in agreement whether you are a 4 or a 7.

With one exception, and I don’t think Evan takes this into account. A woman who is a 4 to men her age, may well be a 7 to a man who is much older. That is because attraction for most men is based on signs of fertility

It is all part of this ‘value’ system. Men are lower value when they are older. They have higher value if they have status. For women who do not cut it on looks, their options are restricted to ugly losers and older men.

Breast size IS a factor for most men, but it is more important to have a healthy overall shape, and a cute face.

But I’m not attracted to losers or old guys you say. Well no, can’t blame you there.
A number of you choose to remain perpetually single instead, while holding on to the delusion that Prince Charming will arrive eventually and overlook the fact that you are 20 years past your physical best. Good luck with that.

Which leaves the last option. BECOME MORE ATTRACTIVE.
Helen 32

Zaq, two things:

1. There is one other exception beyond age: that is if you are of a race that is not the predominant race in your society. Then, there is a huge amount of disagreement among men about whether you are a 4 or a 7. This is true regardless of whether your face shows bilateral symmetry or you have large eyes, full lips, etc. – all the other objective markers of beauty.

2. Your wrote: “For women who do not cut it on looks, their options are restricted to ugly losers and older men.” Take a look at the married couples around you. Very often, you’ll see women who are not that objectively attractive married to handsome, age-appropriate men who are not losers. Likewise, you’ll see objectively beautiful women married to ugly or older men. In real life, people are not “restricted” by looks, in either direction.
Jadafisk 33

But how, when attractiveness is so dependent on largely immutable factors – facial symmetry and youth among the most prominent of them? Many women of the subgroup that this site targets are already as thin as they can conceivably be, often as a compensatory measure. Are you contending that the money and pain involved if they were to go about purchasing a younger, “cuter” face would be worth it?
Paul Mawdsley 34

Zaq, I can’t help but sense that your view of the world is missing an enormous amount of information. You speak as though measurements and statistics are all that is to be considered in shaping your sense of the world. I’m new to this blog but your perspective reminds me of certain physicists and psychologists I’ve dealt with elsewhere. In these others I have come to see that they have very little respect for ways of making sense of the world from a more intuitive and feeling place that starts with experience rather than measurements and statistics. Invariably, they have little respect for intuitive learning, model building and theorizing using experience, introspection and empathy. They tend strongly toward behaviorist psychology and the neo-Copenhagen interpretation of QM. They prefer Skinner over Jung and Bohr over Einstein. And they speak from a place of authority that is so “objective” that it cannot be “reasonably” be questioned. I wonder if you are coming from a similar place.

Interpretation of statistical data depends completely on the amount of information your schemata allows you to integrate. It depends completely on the intuitive lenses you have built through which you interpret what you have measured. For example, if mass appeal is the goal of a dating profile because you believe this is the way to find love, then tailoring your profile to what the majority of the opposite sex is looking for makes sense. This leads to creating a profile, an image of how we want to be perceived, from an outside standard of attractiveness. When I wrote my dating profile I realized this was not my goal. I wanted to meet women that were a good fit for the real person I am. I put together pictures that showed different sides of my real character and a profile that was very authentically me, which I knew would eliminate 95% of women reading it. I created a profile from an inside standard of my value and my attractiveness. I really didn’t care what those who couldn’t see who I was thought of me. I knew that the right person would recognize my attractiveness. She did.

My whole approach was based on intuitive learning, model building and theorizing using experience, introspection and empathy. It sent me in a completely different direction to the “objective” approach. And it worked. There is so much more to interpreting life and the universe than measurements and statistics.
Karl R 35

Zaq said: (#31)
“All studies show that most men show a consensus on what they consider physically attractive. Other than comparatively few outliers, the majority of men are in agreement whether you are a 4 or a 7.”

Please show us your source.

In trying to find studies that might support what you said, I found multiple articles which referred to one study … and none of them gave enough details to support any of the statements you made above (including the abstract of the study in question).

Men agree more than women on whom they find beautiful. Men’s agreement tended to focus on three traits: thin, seductive and confidence.

It seems your claims are greatly exaggerated.

The only study I found which actually quantified some of its results comes from an OkCupid blog post:
http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/the-mathematics-of-beauty/

If you scroll down to the section titled “Real People”, you’ll see that there is an actual breakdown for two members of the site. One shows a high degree of “consensus” about her looks, the other one shows a high degree of diversity in opinion.

If you look carefully, you’ll notice that even with the woman where there’s a high degree of “consensus”, less than 50% of men gave her the same rating. That’s not even a majority.
Mark 36

@Kathleen10

“Most women underestimate their attractiveness where as men seem to overestimate it .”

Over generalization/blanket statement, that’s what gets us into trouble when dating . I know I make them too.

I am a man and I don’t overestimate my attractiveness. I think I am reasonably attractive. Besides it’s not me who determines my attractiveness, it’s the person would dates me. If I am attractive to them then great we’re good! And Vice Versa.
mara 37

Evan,
just a question: why you write that a 31y.o. woman could choose instead a 30, 40 or 50 y.o. guy?
Is a guy that’s younger then her (say 28) out of her league?
These days I see many women getting married to younger men, and my mother herself, after decades of disastrous relationship, found happiness nearly 20 years ago with her boyfriend who is 7 years her junior. They are still together, and they have a 17 y.o. girl.
Why don’t you even mention a younger men?
I am 32 and – as much as I have nothing against finding a guy that’s my age (sorry 40/50 something: not my thing), I always end up attracting 28…
They say it’s because I look ridiculously younger (24/25), but bottom line is: why not mention it?
These days it happens a lot !
Tom 38

Two more complicating factors:
- The demographic profile of where you live affects your rating. I live in a city in which has proportionally far more eligible women than men, therefore artificially inflating my attractiveness.
- Women have to differentiate between men who are looking for just sex and men who are genuinely interested. Men who are on the prowl will often drop their standards considerably in order to get laid. This might explain why some of the posters here have had both ugly and attractive men approach them.
Kathleen 39

Mark

I think last week there was an article on MSN that was fairly compelling that concluded that most women underrate their attractiveness. The way I wrote the statement does look like a blanket generalization I agree. Most of my women friends I have ever known underrate their attractiveness and make unreasonable comparisons of themselves to models/actresses etc.
Ruby 40

Zaq #31

While it is true that there is a great deal of consensus on what constitutes attractiveness for both men and women (i.e., symmetrical faces and bodies are considered most attractive), there is still enough variability in individual concepts of beauty that we do not all seek exactly the same people. It’s already been mentioned that personality and chemistry between two individuals also influences whom we find attractive. That’s why a certain woman looks cute to you, but not so much to your best friend. When you comment that some women “overlook the fact that you are 20 years past your physical best,” remember that everyone ages differently as well.
Helen 41

Karl R 35: One interesting facet of that page is that it shows that women with the most striking appearances (very prominent facial features, expressions, tattoos, etc.) elicit the greatest diversity of ratings from men, and likewise receive the most contacts. However, those with the most “average” features, which scientific articles have shown are considered most “attractive,” get more consensus in the ratings and fewer contacts. How odd.

The game theory hypothesis is intriguing, but apparently hasn’t been tested.

I wonder if these results also hold true when people meet face-to-face as opposed to online, or whether the reverse happens, because the game theory hypothesis would no longer hold (the men have less immediate competition).
Nicole 42

@Helen, #32, thanks for pointing that out.

As a minority, I kind of get tired of people who insist that everyone finds the same things attractive, and you regularly put down beautiful women of my race as being inferior even when they possess the “classic markers of beauty.” It’s interesting how people’s goggles are, b/c the ways that people will insist/deny that all women of a certain race are unattractive is mind-boggling. They’ll see things that aren’t even there in regards to facial features and proportions.

Too many people think that we all love pale skin and blond hair and somehow think it is crazy to think that the women and men who don’t normally have those features frequently DON’T find them to be the most attractive.

You’ll hear plenty of minority women who get a lot of attention when in groups where their own race is the majority or at least very visible, and they get ZERO attention when taken out of that setting.

So I appreciate hearing someone who I think isn’t a minority acknowledging that it’s not just b/c the rest of us are just objectively uglier. (And I saw a comment on another thread that was putting down Halle Berry in favor of Angelina Jolie as if it was an immutable fact that AJ was better looking. The guys of my minority group would probably disagree if polled, and would list a lot of women that other men haven’t heard of and wouldn’t like. We don’t really care, but I like to point out that there is more than one beauty standard out there).
Kathleen 43

Nicole
Im from New Zealand so from another culture
Ive noticed plenty of African American women/women of color here in the U.S. who are attractive, striking, and stunning I also really admire and appreciate the confidence that many of them carry themselves with because I was never that confident when younger.
Some of the African American women I personally know have started dating white guys and they are very happy that they have now broadened their dating pool because these guys adore them.
Helen 44

Nicole 42: thanks. Actually, two things:

1) I was the one who considered Halle Berry more beautiful than AJ in that other thread (but that was because AJ was mentioned by the OP, not because I considered her immutably better-looking).

2) I’m also a minority, but not African-American. I’ll guess, though, that our experiences are very similar. Where our looks are concerned, we can divide people into three groups. There are certain people who consider us ugly based solely on our race; other people who consider us objectively pretty or beautiful based on facial symmetry, large eyes, nice figure, etc.; and yet others who can’t tell us apart from each other for the life of them. The last group is the funniest. In two conferences, I’ve been compared to a woman of the same race who is younger and lovelier, and also to another woman of the same race who is three decades older! The guys who “confused” us in these cases literally could not tell us apart. The only commonality among our looks: our race.
Karl R 45

Helen asked: (#41)
“I wonder if these results also hold true when people meet face-to-face as opposed to online, or whether the reverse happens, because the game theory hypothesis would no longer hold (the men have less immediate competition).”

I would bet these results are more true in a face-to-face environment. Furthermore, I would bet that’s the environment where these “game theory” behaviors are established. The behaviors become so firmly entrenched that they carry over to an online environment where the competition is less apparent.
Stacey 46

This is a strange debate. Yes, Victoria Secret and Sports Illustrated have done all of us a huge disservice by pushing a tall skinny blonde long legged fair skinned type as the ultimate and the only brand of beauty. Yes, thanks to the media, the images of this 1% of all women that 100 years ago 99% of men would never encounter in real life have now been digitally enhanced further, multiplied and broadcasted to every home and the male population is conditioned by this impossible standard. Yes, those of us who look closer to the “ideal” will have more options in dating, and yes, for some of us with clear drawbacks easily “fixable” by modern science, it is worth fixing it rather than waiting for the world to become a better place where men appreciate various types of beauty and value women by what’s on the inside.
Zaq 47

Karl

Can’t be bothered to find the studies. Suggest you google it.

From memory, the study quoted in Freakonomics Men were more likely to approach those that were physically more attractive, and in several orders of magnitude greater than those who were less attractive.
The OKCupid study showed that with many thousands of interactions, the men showed that the majority of women were considered a 5 (or whatever their mid point was). In fact it was a perfect normal distribution curve. This is only possible if there is a high correlation between the men on what is considered attractive, and by how much. In particular it shows that men’s view on what is considered beautiful is NOT affected by Hollywood’ s representation of the average female, which is I think a little unexpected unless you take note of what the evolutionary biologists are saying.
In complete contrast, the women showed that, as a whole, they found that men were less than averagely attractive, which IS what you would expect if there is disagreement on what is ‘beautiful’.
I remember reading somewhere that women only agree on who is the most attractive, but disagree on everyone else.

A separate study showed that a persons own attractiveness had NO effect on who THEY considered attractive (that’s not what they expected either). And yes of course that also supports the OKCupid study, because again NORMAL DISTRIBUTION CURVE !!. Not therefore affected by one’s own attractiveness level.

Now on a personal level, I could say surely Juliet Roberts mouth is too big. Surely Angelina Jolie’s EVERYTHING is too big. But I cannot deny they are attractive. Yet some women can find Robert Contanzo or Ernest Borgnine attractive. What ???
Zaq 48

@Paul

You are completely correct. I do not value intuition at all. Anyone with any knowledge of Quantum Mechanics will quickly lose faith in “intuition”. The Universe is how it is measured to be, not how you want it to be.
Yes, I’d like to be believe that either sex would value the other on the beauty that is within, not on what is skin deep. That is however NOT what we observe.
Why was Prince Charming a good mate choice ONLY because of his ability to provide resources. Why was Cinderalla good because she was beautiful. Why were the evil sisters physically ugly.
Fairy tales can tell us much about our value systems.
Karl R 49

Stacey said: (#46)
“Yes, Victoria Secret and Sports Illustrated have done all of us a huge disservice by pushing a tall skinny blonde long legged fair skinned type as the ultimate and the only brand of beauty.”
“the male population is conditioned by this impossible standard.”

OkCupid looked at the data on how men had rated women on their site:

“Our chart shows how men have rated women, on a scale from 0 to 5. The curve is symmetric and surprisingly charitable: a woman is as likely to be considered extremely ugly as extremely beautiful, and the majority of women have been rated about “medium.” The chart looks normalized, even though it’s just the unfiltered opinions of our male users.”

“Given the popular wisdom that Hollywood, the Internet, and Photoshop have created unrealistic expectations of how a woman should look, I found the fairness and, well, realism, of this gray arc kind of heartening.”

OkCupid also looked at the data on how women had rated men on their site:

“women rate an incredible 80% of guys as worse-looking than medium. Very harsh.”

You can read their results here:
http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/your-looks-and-online-dating/

According to the data, men have a realistic opinion of women’s appearance. Women have a harsh and unrealistic opinion of men’s appearance.

Perhaps the finger-pointing is going in the wrong direction.
Evan Marc Katz 50

Stop with your facts, Karl. They’re totally destroying my feelings!
Karl R 51

Zaq said: (#47)
“Can’t be bothered to find the studies. Suggest you google it”

I googled it and could only find one study. It didn’t provide enough information to support or refute your claim.

If you want to prove that the study exists, stop being lazy and do your own search.

Since you’re showing a tendency to skim without reading details, let me point out that the headlines to the articles implied there was a consensus, but if you read the details that’s not what the data indicated.

Zaq said: (#47)
“The OKCupid study showed that with many thousands of interactions, the men showed that the majority of women were considered … whatever their mid point was … In fact it was a perfect normal distribution curve.”

I mostly agree with that. It was an almost perfect distribution curve.

Zaq said: (#47)
“This is only possible if there is a high correlation between the men on what is considered attractive, and by how much.”

That’s completely wrong. If you had actually read the first OkCupid link I’d provided, you would realize that the actual data proved that statement wrong.

If you had studied higher math, you’d also realize that you can get a normalized curve without a high correlation.

So to recap, you claim that “all the studies” support your belief in consensus among men about women’s beauty. Of the three studies I’ve found, two don’t provide enough evidence to support or refute your claim, and one study refutes it.
Kathleen 52

As a tall slim leggy fair skinned blonde I resemble those comments !!!!! LOL
Stacey 53

Karl R #49

I am not “pointing fingers” at men, as you seem to suggest, I am pointing at the media and their impact. The fact that men have “realistic” opinion of women’s looks does not disprove or contradict what I said about impossible standards. Men just acknowledge that most women do not live up to those standards, completely realistically.

Consider a hypothetical situation where all women with VS proportions and looks (i.e. 10-s) disappeared off the face of the planet. Suddenly, women who used to be 9-s move up to 10-s, 8-s to 9-s, etc. In other words, the entire “cost curve” shifts upwards, if you will. Since modern men are being repeatedly shown lots of images of extremely beautiful women, within a very narrow definition of what beautiful is, in their eyes this is what a 10 should look like. This leads to depreciation of beauty outside of that standard and to boyfriends who throw into faces of their g/fs the cold, hard “realistic” facts that they are no Angelina Jolies like from the letter from last week.

OTOH, a 100 years ago a 10 would be the most beautiful girl in their town for example. Alas, in the modern world women are being forced to compete not just with other girls next door, but with perfetly altered images of models/actresses cast from all over the world for their attractiveness, or should I say closest approximation of the modern western standard of beauty. This is why you see eating disorders epidemic and body image crisis among young western women. Can this be changed, i don’t kow, but what I do know is what I said in #46 – the closer you’re to the ideal, the more options you have.
Paul Mawdsley 54

Thanks for confirming my intuition Zaq. Lol.

I have a fair amount of knowledge of quantum theory and its various interpretations but have not lost faith in intuition. I see us has having a very poor understanding of the nature of intuition and our culture of disrespect towards it just goes to make our understanding worse and our intuitive development stunted.

Ironically, intuition can be understood as the brain functioning as an undivided wholeness instead of the linear functions of its parts; kinda the difference between quantum physics and classical physics. What was it Penrose suggested about tubules and the possibility of a quantum brain?

Btw- I think Einstein had a pretty good knowledge of QM. I don’t remember him losing faith in intuition. Although those who had no faith in intuition did lose faith in him.

Now, how do I tie this back to the original thread? Oh yeah…our sense of attractiveness, and our sense of the aesthetic in general, is more intuitive than it is the result of objective measurements and linear thought. So, maybe Zaq, it is your disdain for intuition that is shaping your view more than your objectivity.
Eliza 55

Based on how society views beauty–you have to be 5’9, blond and weigh no more 120 lbs to be attractive. That rules me out. 5’4, 130 lbs with auburn hair. most men don’t go for petite women with dark eyes, and dark hair. Women are held at very high standards….yet men can walk around with huge beer bellies. No? Evan–do you agree? I base this comment on what I hear men comment on amongst themselves.
mara 56

HI everyone,
can I disagree on two points?

1/ Since when “blonde” is a beauty standard?
There are just as many brunettes top models as blondes. Since Milla Jovovich is considered less attractive than Claudia Shiffer?

2/
I must agree with Evan that female beauty is not that subjective (the rules by wich surgeons enhance women’s look prove it).

If there was absolutely no standard but just as many opinions as people well, women would stop hitting the gym, dieting, having botox, nosejobs, wearing makeup and so on…tomorrow!

As a former model, I can tell you that if men’s taste is so ‘different’ from one another than I don’t see why in my life I have never ever encountered rejection, never had a guy turning me down.
I just turn heads.

(please note that I am not vain, shallow or full of myself: I am actually annoyed at how superficial most people are, and how it’s hard for me to be taking seriously in my present job JUST because I look like a model, thus I must be constantly heavily technically underestimated. I am fully aware beauty is a gift we all have to give back, and I don’t pride myself of something I can just keep but I certainly did not create)

But the fact is: all men I met have agreed that I look pretty damn good, so how subjective can female beauty be?

After all, female beauty (when it comes to proportions of the face and hips) hasn’t changed since the Egyptians and the Greeks.
Sure, when the economy is down we like a few extra pounds, but the proportions of wais/hips is unchanged and even back in the 18th Century we praised thin ankles and (horribly) thinning corsets.

If female beauty was just an opinion, there couldn’t be top models, there couldn’t be Angelina’s (who BTW got TONS of plastic surgery to fine tune her naturally pretty face into an angular bombshell, following precise mathematical rules, she added a chin she just didn’t have before – just watch “Girls, Interrupted” in a profile shot, no chin whatsoever – got cheekbones too, reduced lower lip, enhanced upper lip, tweaked her once boxy nose, added big boobs, got several injections to stay young and had a tummy tuck after the twins too…) or Megan Fox (same process as Angelina pretty much, and well, they ended up looking a lot alike..).

If you still think female beauty is in the eye of the beholder, check out any “beauty design” surgery by this guy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=695dn9EnWeY

He systematically turns ugly or average chicks into very pretty to absolute knockouts.
He states he’s following mathematical rules of proportions that are universal indicator of youth, health, fertile, feminine and unchanged since we can track human history.

Than of course, there is personal taste….when a women is beautiful !
Given 10 top models someone prefers Kate Moss, someone prefers Coco Rocha, some Joan Smalls….. but the bottom line is,
to a computer 50 women who are famous for their looks they pretty much the same:

high cheekbones, full lips, 1/3 rule of proportion of the length of the face, perfect triangle between eyes and nose (or faraway eyes, NEVER close together), small nose with an angle within 90° and 110° with the face)..

I could go on and on but honestly:
as a professional fashion photographer AND retoucher I can tell you guys there is only one way to make a women prettier: not two.

And the simple fact one cas say ‘she is pretty but she had a big nose’ well, big compared to what?
Compared to these rules, of course.
=)
Karl R 57

Eliza said: (#55)
“Based on how society views beauty–you have to be 5’9, blond and weigh no more 120 lbs to be attractive.”

That’s rather emaciated (a BMI of 17.7).

Maybe you should avoid making such sweeping statements until you better understand how height, weight and build interrelate.

Eliza said: (#55)
“most men don’t go for petite women with dark eyes, and dark hair.”

You’re claiming that men don’t go for Asian women?

Eliza said: (#55)
“Women are held at very high standards….”

I’m assuming you’ve had a long-term boyfriend before. Think back to when you did. If you were spending a day at home with your boyfriend, did you bother todress up and put on makeup? (My fiancée and ex-girlfriends wouldn’t under those circumstances.)

Now think about the last time you went to a wedding shower, baby shower, tupperware party, or other event where only women were going to attend. Did you dress up and put on makeup to attend that event?

Women are held to high standards by other women.

Eliza said: (#55)
“men can walk around with huge beer bellies.”

Women can walk around with thunder thighs, too.

What point are you trying to make?

Eliza said: (#55)
“I base this comment on what I hear men comment on amongst themselves.”

If you are present to hear what the men are saying, the men aren’t talking amongst themselves. The men are talking in mixed company.

Stacey said: (#53)
“Consider a hypothetical situation where all women with VS proportions and looks (i.e. 10-s) disappeared off the face of the planet. Suddenly, women who used to be 9-s move up to 10-s, 8-s to 9-s, etc. In other words, the entire “cost curve” shifts upwards, if you will.”

Consider a hypothetical situation where all the geniuses (i.e. 10s in intelligence) disappeared off the face of the planet … with all the accompanying “cost curve” shift, etc.

Are you claiming that the existence of geniuses depreciates the intellect of all the non-geniuses in the world?

Stacey said: (#53)
“Alas, in the modern world women are being forced to compete not just with other girls next door, but with perfetly altered images of models/actresses cast from all over the world for their attractiveness,”

That’s your choice.

When it comes to attractiveness, I’m not competing with the best looking men in Hollywood. I’m competing with the best-looking men in the room.

Stacey said: (#53)
“This is why you see eating disorders epidemic and body image crisis among young western women.”

Earliest documented medical case of anorexia nervosa: 1689
Invention of the corset: around 1530

And you’re blaming Victoria Secret, Sports Illustrated and other modern media.
Zaq 58

@Karl
“Since you’re showing a tendency to skim without reading details”
“stop being lazy”
“If you had actually read”
“If you had studied higher math, you’d also realize”

So you are saying that a normal distribution curve from a large data set is most likely to be produced without a high correlation.
Really ? Or are you just trying to make a point ?

You know Karl, I could site the studies, and if it was for anyone other than you I probably would.
Helen 59

Zaq and Karl R: What does a normal distribution have to do with correlation at all? It is the distribution of an independent variable. For a correlation to exist, there must be two variables.

Eliza said: “most men don’t go for petite women with dark eyes, and dark hair.”

Karl R said: “You’re claiming that men don’t go for Asian women?”

Eliza and Karl R: Petite women with dark eyes and dark hair get loads of attention.
Karl R 60

Zaq said: (#58)
“So you are saying that a normal distribution curve from a large data set is most likely to be produced without a high correlation.”

I’m saying that the normal distribution curve in the OkCupid article that we’re both referring to is not produced from data points that have a high correlation.

I’m not going to even bother discussing whether it’s “most likely” or not, becaue that’s irrelevant.

How can you possible believe the (alleged) “most likely” explanation is more accurate than the actual explanation?
Zaq 61

@Paul

Its a fair cop, you got me. You do realize that people lost faith in Einstein’s “God does not play dice” intuition because it was, well, WRONG, as the results of experiments have since shown.
I have heard Roger Penrose speak on the ‘beauty’ in certain mathematical concepts in physics, which is almost like intuition.
But we are now stuck with a ‘multiverse’ which is positively ugly.

I notice that you used the word ‘faith’ as well, which is the language of religion, and you think that there is something beyond measurement.

So back to the original thread. Why would beauty be objective ?
One word – Darwin
Stacey 62

Karl, do you even understand the difference between a documented case and an epidemic, as in 1 in 10 women having it in one form or another, girls as young as 9 dieting ad developing anorexia? What is your point exactly, that women develop eating disorders because it’s their “choice”? I got news for you, yes, women chose to compete with each other on looks, but they compete for men’s attention, and men are only giving this attention to those who conform to the skinny model type of beauty, which they get from the media. And when the standard is pushed to the extreme, women are pushed to the extreme. and there’s always a choice: to say single.

Eliza #55
If that’s what you think is standing between you and male attention, I suggest you dye your hair, get blue contacts and start running 5 miles 3 times a week. You will be slim, blond and blue eyed in about 3 months with very low cost

If you feel that’s wh
Helen 63

Zaq 61: “Why would beauty be objective? One word – Darwin”

The word might be more appropriately “evolution” or “natural selection,” but I agree with your general idea.

Our one universe within the multiverse has much beauty, both in mathematics and in nature.
Jadafisk 64

A few folks here have mentioned the impact that racial origin can have. Hordes of men regularly contend that “full-blooded” women of my group can aspire to being a physical attractiveness 5 at best.
AllenB 65

Hey Zaq, cite the studies for me please.

My recollection of some math I have taken is if you convolve a bunch of random functions together, you tend towards a gaussian distribution. A Guassian distribution is result of true statistical random noise added to a ‘true’ value. It only tells you that the average woman is 3 with a particular standard deviation. If the assessment was completely random the distribution would be flat, but from the distribution alone you can’t tell if most men agree a given woman is a four or a two or a five, only that the more women end up with an average of 3 than with an average of 2 or 5.
Karl R 66

Stacey,
Do you understand what facts are?

Facts:
An estimated 0.5 to 3.7 percent of women suffer from anorexia nervosa in their lifetime.
http://www.anad.org/get-information/about-eating-disorders/eating-disorders-statistics/
According to the Mayo Clinic: “The exact cause of anorexia nervosa is unknown,” though the popular emphasis on thinness is believed to play a contributing role, along with genetic predisposition and obsessive-compulsive behaviors.
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/anorexia/ds00606/dsection=causes

How do you know the exact cause of anorexia nervosa, and the exact percentage of women who will suffer from it, when the doctors and researchers at the Mayo Clinic don’t?

Stacey,
“men are only giving this attention to those who conform to the skinny model type of beauty,”

Really? Are Christina Hendrick’s fans aware of this?

You may choose to believe that men only give attention to women who look like skinny models, but that belief doesn’t stand up to casual observation.

mara said: (#59)
“just watch ‘Girls, Interrupted’ in a profile shot, no chin whatsoever”

Umm … I see a chin.
http://www.google.com/imgres?q=angelina+jolie+girl+interrupted+pictures&start=94&hl=en&sa=X&biw=1024&bih=673&tbm=isch&prmd=imvnso&tbnid=Pv3Y7cmastacXM:&imgrefurl=http://weheartit.com/slhx&docid=BiWrv-quC6lNnM&imgurl=http://data.whicdn.com/images/694796/130-2_thumb.jpg&w=240&h=200&ei=xfKpT6qaCcy1twebwb2jAg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=789&vpy=145&dur=734&hovh=160&hovw=192&tx=153&ty=85&sig=116395844765299385534&page=6&tbnh=134&tbnw=163&ndsp=22&ved=1t:429,r:21,s:94,i:50
Ruby 67

KarlR said (#57):

“I’m assuming you’ve had a long-term boyfriend before. Think back to when you did. If you were spending a day at home with your boyfriend, did you bother todress up and put on makeup? (My fiancée and ex-girlfriends wouldn’t under those circumstances.)

Now think about the last time you went to a wedding shower, baby shower, tupperware party, or other event where only women were going to attend. You probably dressed up and put on makeup to attend that event.

Women are held to high standards by other women.”

If a woman was spending the evening watching videos with her female friend, she wouldn’t dress up and put on makeup either. You can bet that the same woman dresses up and wears makeup when going on dates with her boyfriend because she wants to look attractive for him. This is especially true in the early stages of dating, including inviting him to her home when it’s just the two of them, as well when going to other public events where both men and women are present. It’s less true today, but traditionally, most of the top fashion designers and stylists have been men.

I think that Eliza’s saying that men are more comfortable with their bodies even if they’re not in good shape, whereas women are much more critical of themselves.

The incidence of anorexia in the United States has more than doubled since 1970. Anorexia was not officially classified as a psychiatric disorder by the American Psychiatric Association until 1980. It is most certainly recognized as a serious problem for teenage girls.
Zaq 68

Here’s a very entertaining video. I recommend it as a useful starting point – Is beauty in the eye of the beholder ?

http://www.ted.com/talks/denis_dutton_a_darwinian_theory_of_beauty.html
mara 69

@ Karl

look closer Karl.
check out this scerengrab (last pic on the bottom,
if the other ones aren’t obvious enough);
no, she didn’t have this angular, protruding, classic chin.
My job is to know facial differences by the millimeter.
And here there is quite a massive change…

http://www.womenlargejaw.com/node/456
mara 70

@ Karl
more evidence
hello?

http://www.femalefirst.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=285415&p=4258760
Paragon 71

The sure way to gauge your *true* level of attractiveness, is justified confidence with respect to object(ie. LTR, or
short-term) dependence.

If you can score dates and sex with male 9′s, but only male 6′s want to marry you(assuming this is the goal), then guess what your *true* value is(hint: it’s *not* a ’9′, like you might have been led to believe).

But, the issue of human attraction is hardly the chaos theory it is purported to be, at all levels of observation(every measurable phenomenon varies, but that doesn’t mean that we cannot observe predictable patterns):

http://www.oocities.org/omegaman_uk/beauty.html

Much confusion arises from the little acknowledged fact that there is a frequent conflict between male preference and
*opportunity*.

Just because it can be naively observed where a male 5 or 6 will hook up with a female 2 or 3, doesn’t necessarily imply a
preference for such women, lol.

But rather, that males are under evolutionary pressure(ie. due to their high-rate fitness optima, compared to females) to make concessions and trade-offs – they are compelled to breed more frequently, even to the point of considering inferior women as an option.

Consider the whole BBW/fat-fetish culture.

Again, these guys don’t necessarily prefer obsese women(at least initially) – but, males deprived of sexual options,
appreciate that such low-value women are more sexually available, relative to higher value women:

http://www.overcomingbias.com/2010/08/sex-looks-are-supply-substitutes.html

So, this whole phenomenon is a predictable male adaptation to an acutely skewed mating landscape, that limits the options of the typical males.

Admittedly, this is difficult concept for many females to grasp, because their characterisitic mating obstinacy is
itself culled from sexually conflicting evolutionary pressures, where females weight more strongly for mate quality, than do males(who make more qualitative concessions in favor of mate quantity – as a function of mating frequency).

So, in the rare case that a female is unable to find a willing and attractive male, she is more inclined to go without, until
such a male makes himself available to her(or not).

In summary, theory predicts that male mating ‘choices’ should be more variable than that of females(something which the data supports), but this can only be spuriously correlated with tacit(ie genuine) preference.

@ Kathleen

” Most women underestimate their attractiveness where as men seem to overestimate it .”

Soundly refuted by evidence, countless times in this blog already.

@ Holly

“It’s funny now that I think about some of the men I’ve dated in the past. I’ve intentionally sought out the short/fat/bald
guys (those I consider 5s) because I figured we’d be a good match; he’d appreciate me even though I’m overweight and no model, and I wouldn’t have to worry about other women chasing him around. Well, now that I look back I realize that most (if not all) of these men had been married to gorgeous women or ended up cheating on me with gorgeous women, so maybe the scale doesn’t mean anything after all.”

Wrong conclusion – it sounds more likely that this is a very atypical sample, or perhaps your attractiveness measures of
these men/women are *way* off(esp if you seem to be observing below average males who are capable of having sexual affairs with gorgeous women, and without money being exchanged, lol).

@ Rudy37lee

“. If you glance around at couples, for the most part, they are about equal in attractiveness to one another.”

Maybe long-term couples, but with short-term pairings, disassortative is the rule, except at the extreme margins of
attractiveness.

@ Michael17

“I’m a guy, and I’m not physically attracted to every woman whose physical beauty rates “9″ or “10″ (going by society’s
general concensus). In fact, there are many such whom I am NOT attracted to. And yet, I am attracted to some “6″s or “7″s.”

Abd this is all confounded by cognitive dissonance – where we internalize our options(wighting for expectations of success) as a ‘preference’(but only within limits of deviation, from biases indicated in evolutionary success).

@ Leesa

“the decent guys generally don’t bother going there, and so the pretty women often get the creepy guys who don’t care if they get rejected and will shamelessly have a go. where does this fit into pretty women being able to judge their realistic attractiveness to men?”

This doesn’t apply to OLD, where the data shows that attractive women *will* get emailed by virtually every guy, lol.

There’s your answer.

@ Helen

“1. There is one other exception beyond age: that is if you are of a race that is not the predominant race in your society.
Then, there is a huge amount of disagreement among men about whether you are a 4 or a 7. This is true regardless of whether your face shows bilateral symmetry or you have large eyes, full lips, etc. – all the other objective markers of beauty.”

I would not say huge disagreement, but there is some, because of an evolutionary principle(Koinophilia), that limits
deviations from normal in any population.

“Take a look at the married couples around you. Very often, you’ll see women who are not that objectively attractive married to handsome, age-appropriate men who are not losers. Likewise, you’ll see objectively beautiful women married to ugly or older men. In real life, people are not “restricted” by looks, in either direction.”

Because, in LTRs, attractiveness can be(or become) a secondary consideration(especially where money, resources, and status are involved).

But, this is clearly not the general case, so why consider it as such?

” However, those with the most “average” features, which scientific articles have shown are considered most “attractive,” get more consensus in the ratings and fewer contacts. How odd.”

Male ratings and emailing strategies are being colored by relative expectations(the cost/reward game theoretic
explanation – where male investments are commensurate to some compound assessment of cost:gain, with some weighting for confidence of expected payout).

Also, conclusions from these trait-average studies fail to account for that margin of deviation where we must assume
directional selection is operating(ie. while the hypothetical immaculate beauty might be expected to objectify perfect trait ‘averages’, the majority of beautiful women should be expected to deviate in more or less predictable directions).

@ Nicole

Every evolutionary population also has a proportion of ‘outgroup-seekers’, who will favor these clinal(ie. racial) variants, so that balancing selection can operate opportunistically.

The trick for women of color is to be endogamous, or to seek out favorably disposed populations of outgroup seekers(through indicated venues/mediums – such as inter-racial clubs/sites).

I can say that the value of minority women actually *rises* in favorable populations where concessions are made for the improved prospect of out-breeding enhancement.

The point is, any perceived disadvantage of minority women can actually be turned into an advantage(with men who will prefer them).

@ Paul Mawdsley

“My whole approach was based on intuitive learning, model building and theorizing using experience, introspection and
empathy. It sent me in a completely different direction to the “objective” approach. And it worked.”

Yeah, but I don’t know of a single reasonable individual who neglects intuition in lieu of perfect information – it is not the
false dichotomy you seem to be posing.

@ Mara

“These days I see many women getting married to younger men”

Yes, and still less than the reverse.

There’s the quick answer on why your thought experiement is not likely to render the conclusion you would like.

@ Stacey

“I am not “pointing fingers” at men, as you seem to suggest, I am pointing at the media and their impact.”

And the study he cited, soundly refuted that ‘impact’.

“The fact that men have “realistic” opinion of women’s looks does not disprove or contradict what I said about impossible
standards.”

Of course it does – without corresponding conseqences, how do these ‘standards’ manifest except as a figment of your imagination?

” Alas, in the modern world women are being forced to compete not just with other girls next door, but with perfetly altered images of models/actresses”

If you are arguing that the ‘girl next door’ is competing for the same pool of men as female models and celebrities, then
this can only speak to the ‘unrealistic standards’ of all the mediocre women who are invested(to the exclusion of their male peers) in the same kinds of (high value)men as women of considerably higher value.

Ergo, the basis of this problem lies squarely on these unrealistic expectations(special pleading arguments don’t make a compelling case, sorry).

” And when the standard is pushed to the extreme, women are pushed to the extreme. and there’s always a choice: to say single.”

Or they can go for guys at their *own level of attractiveness* – which, of course, data and theory demostrates they are
loathe to do(to the corresponding dinenfranchisement of the men you are ignoring in your little pity equation).
Helen 72

AllenB: You’re right. It’s the Central Limit Theorem. And I also agree with the latter part of your argument. You can’t tell from a distribution of all women’s averages what one woman’s average distribution looks like, precisely because of the CLT.
Helen 73

Jadafisk 64: “A few folks here have mentioned the impact that racial origin can have. Hordes of men regularly contend that “full-blooded” women of my group can aspire to being a physical attractiveness 5 at best.”

So don’t hang out with those silly hordes. Hang out with those who accept you regardless of race.

Jadafisk, if you are either African-American or Asian, the perfect tribe to hang out with is nerds. Nerds just don’t care much about other people’s outward appearances, because: 1) they don’t care much about their own outward appearances and 2) they are much more interested in something else – usually something intellectual and worthwhile – than obsessing over another person’s race.

Here I agree with Paragon 70. There is always a right group for you regardless of race. Try, if you can, to avoid the type of person who would care about such things and to gravitate toward those for whom it doesn’t matter. As a minority, I’ve found my own comfortable niche around nerds. I am not as comfortable around socialites, because for them, looks really do matter, and therefore race matters.
mara 74

@Paragon

excuse me, I never said that there are more couplese where he is younger than she is.
I also never attempted any “experiment”.
I simply said WHY should we completely ignore that a 31 y.o. woman COULD be dating or end up marrying a younger guy.
How is this questionable ? I know myself many perfectly happy long term couples where she is older,
what is your point Paragon?
Karl R 75

Stacey said: (#53)
“Alas, in the modern world women are being forced to compete not just with other girls next door, but with perfetly altered images of models/actresses cast from all over the world for their attractiveness,”
Paragon said: (#70)
“If you are arguing that the ‘girl next door’ is competing for the same pool of men as female models and celebrities, then this can only speak to the ‘unrealistic standards’ of all the mediocre women who are invested (to the exclusion of their male peers) in the same kinds of (high value) men as women of considerably higher value.”

I wanted to bring this out because it got lost in the three pages of response.

I’m not dating a model/actress. I’m certainly not dating the digitally altered image of a model/actress. If any men are holding out for the digitally altered image of a supermodel, all they’re doing is weeding out a few extremely stupid men from the dating pool.

How is that a loss for women?

Stacey’s entire rant has no relevance to the topic Sharon is discussing.

Stacey said: (#62)
“when the standard is pushed to the extreme, women are pushed to the extreme. and there’s always a choice: to say single.”

My unreasonable standard can’t keep you single, because you’ll just go find someone else with a more reasonable standard.

My unreasonable standard will keep me single though, because it will be present no matter whom I date.

Similarly, if you have an unreasonable standard, it only prevents me from dating you, not any other woman.

Given the number of people who get married, clearly these unreasonable standards don’t affect the majority of the population. Most people tailor their expectations to their opportunities.

So if you’re continuously being hampered by unreasonable standards, then the opposite sex is not the source of your problems.

Helen said: (#72)
“Jadafisk, if you are either African-American or Asian, the perfect tribe to hang out with is nerds. Nerds just don’t care much about other people’s outward appearances, because: 1) they don’t care much about their own outward appearances”

You’ve just pointed out why your suggestion doesn’t work for many women. Those women care very much about the nerds’ outward appearance.

Other than that, I agree completely.
casey 76

@Helen
But the problem with your advise is that most nerds are socially clueless, which certainly renders them less desirable to females who are relationship seeking . Definitely not the type most women aspire to date/marry. Though studies have shown that nerdy guys tend to make good husbands.
Tom 77

Mara, #37 and 73
“Why you write that a 31y.o. woman could choose instead a 30, 40 or 50 y.o. guy?
Is a guy that’s younger then her (say 28) out of her league?”

I’m such a man and I wouldn’t date a woman in her thirties. Not because she’s out of my league (quite the opposite by your description), rather I’d assume (often unfairly) she’s at a different life-stage to me, re. looking for husband / kids asap.

Obviously I don’t speak for all 28 y.o. old men but I’d say it’s an issue for many, and it’s probably what Evan meant.
Stacey 78

Ok Karl, so tell me what IS my unreasonable standard? Is wanting to date a man who is making same or more and is not physically disfigured unreasonable, because where I live such men only go for models Or model-like type of women, as opposed to us, mediocre population? Should I settle for a loser if I wasn’t blessed with high cheekbones and a 23″ waist? I really don’t know what planet you live on, but right around here pretty much every girlfriend I have who is successful and overall a full package but not model hot has ZERO marriage prospects with her equals. Zero. So yes, we do feel like we are in competition with the entire world, and no, we are not competing for some actors or celebs, just guys who work in the same office/law firm etc as us. Isn’t it exactly the problem that this blog is dedicated to? From my personal experience, took me 4 selective procedures before I could get a caliber of guy I wanted. My only regret? Didn’t have them sooner.
Paul Mawdsley 79

Paragon,

Sorry to be unclear. I put the word “objective” in quotations because I was referring specifically to Zaq’s version of “objective”. I do not see a dichotomy between intuition and objectivity in reality but such a dichotomy exists in a lot of individuals. I was seeing it as existing in Zaq and in others I have dealt with who have no respect for intuition. I have also seen it in intuitive spiritualists who have no respect for objectivity.

Zaq was taking a stand of “objective authority” and made the point that he was against intuition. This was the false dichotomy I was pointing to. I would suggest there is no real objectivity where the information provided by intuition needs to be excluded. Part of the meaning of objectivity is being inclusive of all available evidence. Thanks for leading me to clarify.

Side note: I find the substance of your post and Karl R’s posts to be in stark contrast to Zaq’s. My intuition tells me this contrast is telling of different motives and to be weary of wasting my time on further engagement with Zaq.
cat 80

@Stacey..so sad for you that you opted for “4 elective procedures” to get a date with someone that’s your “caliber”? Why would you stoop to such a low level. I think you need to re-evaluate your “caliber”. There are real, good men out there that are quality men that aren’t looking for “model types” & the men who only date “model type” women are not what I consider “good caliber” in the first place. Raise your standards, don’t lower them! Remember, you reap what you sow. Sounds like you are trying for a superficial, shallow man & so shall you reap that. Watch what you wish for! So glad I am married & don’t have to worry about the nonsense that goes on in the dating world. Gross.
Happy Person 81

It’s funny how the woman in the picture weighs 50 pounds, according to the scale! Ha!!
Happy Person 82

Re: stats and equations and evo psych and all that stuff. It’s just analytical nonsense when applied to relationships. When I was dating no one ever dragged out a ruler to check the proportions of my features. And no one ever “rated” me with a number, as far as I can tell. And I didn’t do those things, either.

It’s really much simpler than all of this noise.

Here it is: Are you both OK with the way the other person looks? Are you both OK with how the other person behaves? Do you have some foundation for building whatever you want to build together? Three yes answers means you’re off an running.

Now put your calculators away and go kiss someone!!
Karl R 83

Stacey asked: (#78)
“so tell me what IS my unreasonable standard?”

I’ll give you an easy example.

Stacey said: (#78)
“right around here pretty much every girlfriend I have who is successful and overall a full package but not model hot has ZERO marriage prospects with her equals.”
“Is wanting to date a man who is making same or more [...] unreasonable”

If the man making more than you, he’s not your equal. He’s your superior.

If the man who is earning 20% more than you is your equal, then the man who is earning 20% less than you should also be your equal.

But to you, the man who earns a bit more than you is your equal. The man who earns a bit less than you is a “loser” who you’d never considered dating.

I suspect the same extends to physical appearance (especially given that women rated 80% of men as being below average). If a man is a bit more attractive than you, you see him as being your equal. If he’s a little less attractive than you, you see him as being “disfigured”.

I also noticed how you don’t seem to have any gray area between “peer” and “disfigured/loser”.
Mia 84

This whole debate is ridiculous. Nobody gets into a ltr based on looks. I See average , even flubbery, women everywhere with decent looking guys. If you are an attractive woman , generally the men you are seeing are used to dating women of your phys caliber and it doesn’t put you at any advantage, it just gets you in the door. I’m probably an 8 or 9 but am usually approached by men who are old, ugly, or players. One day I asked a very attractive girl friend if that happened to her and she agreed. There’s a huge range of decent guys with decent looks out there who aren’t prowling for women but you can get to know them in more casual settings thru friends. I don’t know anyone who is ranking members of the opposite sex by number or holding out for 10s. As long as you’re somewhat cute and sex is good, guys don’t really care about looks for ltr and marriage – it’s about the connection and readiness of the guy for commitment.
Mia 85

Also , I am a minority ( half white though)and do not see any disadvantage — white guys love the exotic look. In fact, many of the best looking guys are tired of the blonde generic look — theyve dated those girls already –and find light brown skin and long dark hair much more interesting and appealing.
Happy Person 86

Stacey: I couldn’t be with a guy who required that I have a selective procedure. Not even one. I don’t even know what a selective procedure is! But I don’t like it. Not one bit…

Karl: Stacey never said what she meant by equal. I think you are jumping to conclusions of the negative variety. You keep telling her what she thinks and what she means, but you aren’t asking her for clarifaction. Foul! Out of bounds!

And double ew about the suggestion that people are superior to others because they make more money. Where do you get that from? Don’t tell us OKCupid. That doesn’t sound like a reliable source of info. I mean, cupids wear diapers and shoot arrows. What’s that about.
Paragon 87

@ Mara

- “excuse me, I never said that there are more couplese where he is younger than she is.
I also never attempted any “experiment”.
I simply said WHY should we completely ignore that a 31 y.o. woman COULD be dating or end up marrying a younger guy.
How is this questionable ? I know myself many perfectly happy long term couples where she is older,
what is your point Paragon?”

Sorry, I should clarify that such an expectation is to some degree *less* likely by virtue of the fact that the reverse
dynamic(older men with younger women), is significantly more common:

http://www.ssb.no/english/magazine/art-2005-01-31-01-en.html

But, I really should not imply anything about your personal preferences, so please accept my humble apologies.

@ Stacey

“Ok Karl, so tell me what IS my unreasonable standard? Is wanting to date a man who is making same or more and is not physically disfigured unreasonable”

Color me skeptical, but where are you observing such a significance of disfigured males, unless there is some reason for an exceptional sampling of war veterans?

“because where I live such men only go for models Or model-like type of women, as opposed to us, mediocre population? Should I settle for a loser if I wasn’t blessed with high cheekbones and a 23″ waist? I really don’t know what planet you live on, but right around here pretty much every girlfriend I have who is successful and overall a full package but not model hot has ZERO marriage prospects with her equals. Zero.”

Sorry, but did you, or your girlfriends ever consider that these ‘losers’, are actually your equals?

I do not say this to sound cruel, but the truth is that males really are *relatively* forgiving of female attractiveness –
data supports this, and evolution *predicts* it.

Thus, the most likely explanation I have is that you(and your friends) have a very skewed perception of reality.

“From my personal experience, took me 4 selective procedures before I could get a caliber of guy I wanted.”

But, tell me, you have already indicated that you have endomorphic tendencies.

And intuition tells me that this caliber of guy you wanted, was nowhere near an assortative equivalent(ie. an endomorphic tending male).

If this is true, then there lies the basis of your scarcity problem(ie. you are fixated on the same small population of ‘choice’ males, as a significantly larger population of women – rendering an insoluble scarcity).
Zaq 88

If only it was simple. Finding someone we are attracted to, and who also finds us attractive, and shares our hopes, aspirations and values. That is the Holy Grail.

And speaking of ‘information’ that isn’t. Here’s an example, that keeps coming up on this blog and which I often hear proclaimed by women.
“Don’t worry. The perfect partner will come when you least expect it. The Universe has set one aside just for you. All you have to do is wait expectantly.”
This apparently is an immutable law. The only thing you have to do is have faith and patience.
And the evidence for this would be ?

Then Mara and Stacey state the ‘ugly’ truth. Improve your looks, improve your success with those you are actually attracted to.
Ria 89

Stacey – 10 points to you! ( I wish you could give me your email address). I remember one other entry from Evans blog, when woman did several surgeries that total costed her massive money. BUT, The surgery actually worked wonders and before and after life was like day and night – she suddenly had the top guys proposing her and life was way more fun.

The fact is – you can listen endlessly all sorts of advices, like “how to win him over,” “your prince is just right around the corner,” and “Ok, that guy wasnt for you, then, NEXT,” when the next guy can come and be as nice as angel, yet still telling you in some point that there is “something missing”, or “he does not feel it,” or worse, you get taken advantage by some (player) 9-ies, who let you kind of belive that you are 10, when their actions shows you half less etc. You get tired of this at the end, when it keeps happening and wonder, why although your friends and family say “youre fantastic,” nothing works. So l dont see anything bad upgrading youself when it gives good results and you have also personality to back it.
Kathleen 90

Heres the highlight story that was on MSN last week for the guys who doubt the possibility that most women under rate their looks…

“A recent study done by Dove Skincare has revealed some fascinating insights into how women perceive themselves and their own beauty. Here’s the good news: 78 percent of ladies surveyed want to see “real women” in beauty ads instead of celebrities and adolescent girls. Win! But here’s the bad news: the study also found that only one in eight British women polled do consider themselves attractive.

What’s most interesting to me about the study’s results, though, is that only five percent of women felt pressure from friends or family to be more beautiful. That means that overwhelmingly, the impulses we have to make ourselves even more gorgeous or dazzling come from within. (I would say that arguably, for young women, one of the hardest battles they face on a day-to-day basis is believing and valuing their own beauty, both inside and out.) I can definitely speak to the fact that I’m my own harshest critic, and the results of this study make me realize that I need to take it easy on myself. “
Karl R 91

Happy Person said: (#90)
“And double ew about the suggestion that people are superior to others because they make more money.”

I’m perfectly happy to date women who earn more or less than me. I don’t consider people who earn more than me to be my superiors, nor do I consider people who earn less than me to be my inferiors.

Stacey wants to date her equal, and she will only date men who earn the same or more than her.

Draw your own conclusions as to whether Stacey views men who earn less than her as her equals. If you’re convinced she does, perhaps you can explain to me why she refuses to date them.

Happy Person said: (#90)
“Karl: Stacey never said what she meant by equal.”

I would say that she already did. But if you feel that there’s another explanation, you can ask her to repeat herself.
Margo 92

Karl : “Eliza said: (#55)
“Based on how society views beauty–you have to be 5’9, blond and weigh no more 120 lbs to be attractive.”

That’s rather emaciated (a BMI of 17.7).”

Karl,

If that’s the way society views beauty, than what’s the point in pointing out YOUR view concerning the above weight. And I can guarantee that those Sports Illustrated models making the big bucks with droves of men begging at their feet don’t give a crap that some person finds them “emanciated”.

Oh, and I will get back to you on that other thread re research. I’m behind in my class work right now.
Helen 93

Stacey 78 wrote: “took me 4 selective procedures before I could get a caliber of guy I wanted.”

Stacey, your earlier comments made good points, but this one is sad (literally, not in an insulting way). Why couldn’t you go for a guy who liked you the way you were naturally? A guy who accepts you as you are is the guy who is worth your devotion, not these other guys whom you deem the “caliber” you wanted. What seems to be absent from this way of doing things is any notion of love. It sounds like pairing off based on superficial checklists. That is a sad way to look at the world, and doesn’t portend well for LTRs.

I do think your earlier points are good, though. As nathan and Karl R pointed out in another thread, many men cannot help but be influenced by these airbrushed images that don’t represent reality. And we women cannot help thinking in some part of our minds that we’re supposed to try to emulate these images, since we see them everywhere. The best we can do is seek someone who, when they get to know us, loves our whole package, not just our looks or money.

Karl R 75: “Those women care very much about the nerds’ outward appearance.”

Casey 76: “most nerds are socially clueless, which certainly renders them less desirable to females who are relationship seeking. Definitely not the type most women aspire to date/marry. Though studies have shown that nerdy guys tend to make good husbands.”

Stacey and others, might I suggest a nerd to you? I’ve been wondering why all the men around me (including my husband) are good, decent, loveable – they’re all nerds. Nerds are great. They don’t obsess about your looks. Usually they make decent salaries and don’t care what you make. They’re good conversationalists (unless you get them started on programming or gadgets). They’re smart. They’re interesting. Usually they’re honest and straightforward. Mate with them and you’ll have brilliant kids. And yes, they do make good husbands. Win-win-win-win-win-win-win-win-win!
Happy Person 94

Karl, you need to go kiss someone right now!!! Someone who makes less money than you do!
Stacey 95

Karl:

Yes I want my man to make at least what I make (preferably more) and be in a similar (or better) financial position to me. So shoot me. I am the first generation wealth creator in my family, I have no patience for people who lack ambition and I am already subsidizing too many people as is.

When I first started in NYC, I worked for a large firm and there was a lot of guys who I considered desirable mates, yet none of them ever wanted to date me. I would see them go to VS shows to pick up models, dating hot assistants (those are honestly the worst, once an assistant is banging someone in the office she’s useless), dating so called “actresses”/(waitresses) and so on. I got the memo, I made some improvements, suddenly I was dating power players, waay above my original ambition. Best money I ever spent. And in the meantime, I am watching my g/fs with terrific degrees, careers and money in the bank spending their best years gyrating between guys they have to support and total players, and ending up having donor kids.

The sad truth is, we live in a very superficial world. My personality, and other qualities have not changed one bit, yet i am suddenly a more attractive date based on my looks. So I go from not being able to date a guy in the office next door, to being engaged to a guy who makes 10x what I make, and you are trying to refute my very real life experience with some jibber-jabber, and your personal opinions? Pssh… This debate went completely off course, and feels a bit like a merry go round, so all I am gonna say is, I would encourage every woman who struggles in dating to revamp their looks first, personality/approach second. Attractive women get away with murder in terms of how they treat men, and they rarely need to strategize how to meet men – it just happens. Become the best you can [afford] and go for the best guy you can get.
Stacey 96

Happy Person #81: I am imagining the scale is in kilograms good catch though!
Jadafisk 97

73. Nerds/geeks are actually the men I’ve preferred first and foremost – and they definitely have racial preferences – they’re very well known for a higher than average tendency to aesthetically prefer East Asians (a bias I actually share, in lighter doses) sometimes exclusively, and their aversion to black women, while nowhere near as renowned, is, in my experience -your mileage may vary, I’m from the South – about as strong. Most of the conversations I’ve been privy to on the subject of race and attractiveness in women took place on nerd-heavy online forums, lightly peppered by some dudebro venues and overhearing some nerdy male friends and acquaintances. Part of the reason I feel that I meshed so well with majority male groups of nerds platonically is that my femaleness was partially obscured by my racial background, and they felt no undercurrent of sexual tension or nervousness about impressing me.

I’m now with a guy who’s as far from nerdy as can be – outgroup men attracted to black women tend to be on that end of the spectrum… jocks, military guys and hip hop heads abound – and that’s the compromise I made when choosing to run more of an inverse match.

And Paragon? I’ll just tell say that there’s an inherent supply/demand imbalance – that’s not where you think it is – that counteracts the desirability boost that a woman of color on a dating site or in a group specifically dedicated to interracial dating would experience.
Nathan 98

Some of the comments on this thread are astoundingly depressing. Looks don’t last and neither do relationships based upon them. Attractiveness is so much more than a set of measurements or hairstyle.
Nicole 99

@Jadafisk, 97, funny I was contemplating making the same comment about the preferences of nerdy guys. It’s very, very true. I’ve overheard many of the those comments in real life. Even with aesthetics aside, there is this stereotype that it’s hard to approach black women, or there are men who are somehow intimidated about being manly enough, so yes, the non-black men who approach are usually on the other end of the social spectrum. But even without it being true, it’s kind of hard dealing with someone who has no social skills. To me, that is a really part of what makes a man attractive or unattractive. I can’t deal with that level of awkward. Conversation is painful. Who could spend a lifetime like that?

@Nathan, 98, it is kind of nuts, esp. since most people commenting are probably 30′s and beyond, but you saw how any people were outraged that a BF wouldn’t tell his GF she was the hottest thing ever, and a lot of people of both genders really do want arm candy even as they approach middle age. The ideas about what makes someone worthy is what I’d expect to hear from kids.
Paragon 100

@ Kathleen

“Heres the highlight story that was on MSN last week for the guys who doubt the possibility that most women under rate their looks…

“A recent study done by Dove Skincare has revealed some fascinating insights into how women perceive themselves and their own beauty. Here’s the good news: 78 percent of ladies surveyed want to see “real women” in beauty ads instead of celebrities and adolescent girls. Win! But here’s the bad news: the study also found that only one in eight British women polled do consider themselves attractive.”

We cannot assume they are underrating their looks, without considering the standard of comparison, and thus what ‘attractive’ is really saying in terms of this study.

But, it is obvious to me, that this perception of being ‘attractive’ contrasts the very top tier of female attractiveness, and thus, inescapably, the expected benefits reaped by the highest value women(including access to the highest value males, and all the benefits they have to offer).

So, what these critical self-assessments(and corresponding anxieties) are really observing, is a conscious, pathological sense of relative deprivation which can only be exacerbated by according further sympathy to a problem of socialized entitlement.

@ Stacey

“Yes I want my man to make at least what I make (preferably more) and be in a similar (or better) financial position to me.

So shoot me.”

That may be a little extreme, but you must understand that hypergamy is not a sympathetic consideration from the male
perspective.

“And in the meantime, I am watching my g/fs with terrific degrees, careers and money in the bank spending their best years gyrating between guys they have to support and total players, and ending up having donor kids.”

Which, of course, all follows from their own personal *choices*.

“The sad truth is, we live in a very superficial world. My personality, and other qualities have not changed one bit, yet i am suddenly a more attractive date based on my looks. So I go from not being able to date a guy in the office next door, to being engaged to a guy who makes 10x what I make, and you are trying to refute my very real life experience with some jibber-jabber, and your personal opinions? Pssh… This debate went completely off course, and feels a bit like a merry go round, so all I am gonna say is, I would encourage every woman who struggles in dating to revamp their looks first, personality/approach second. Attractive women get away with murder in terms of how they treat men, and they rarely need to strategize how to meet men – it just happens. Become the best you can [afford] and go for the best guy you can get.”

Please extend my best wishes and sympathies to your fiance.

@ Jadafisk

“I’m now with a guy who’s as far from nerdy as can be – outgroup men attracted to black women tend to be on that end of the spectrum… jocks, military guys and hip hop heads abound – and that’s the compromise I made when choosing to run more of an inverse match.”

I can help but wonder if this is because black women have a popular reputation for being more dominant than white women, and nerds are intimidated by the prospect?

“And Paragon? I’ll just tell say that there’s an inherent supply/demand imbalance – that’s not where you think it is – that counteracts the desirability boost that a woman of color on a dating site or in a group specifically dedicated to interracial dating would experience.”

I’ll take your word for it, but I won’t pretend to understand, as I am one of these outgroup males(intelligent, but
physically dominant – so perhaps there is some basis to a theory behind the kinds of outgroup males attracted to black
women)who thinks the distinctive clinal traits of black women *enhance* their beauty, rather than detract from it.

I am also under the impression that the beauty of black women is more highly valued just about everywhere outside NA(particularly Europe).
Zaq 101

I cannot help thinking, that in a purely natural selection sense, Stacey is correct.

Evan is trying to square a circle here that doesn’t quite work. For example, how is a man, armed with reality that he is actually only a 4 going to have the confidence, let alone the enthusiasm to go out and be rejected by other unattractive 4s who cannot bring themselves to accept that they are not a 7. Get drunk ?
I think Evan realizes this when he says that a little self delusion is healthy.

Surely the advice should be DO WHATEVER IT TAKES TO IMPROVE YOUR SCORE.
And to those that say that ultimately looks do not matter, its only a foot in the door, character is what counts. Well even if that were true, if you cannot get through the door – its irrelevant.
Is that not what Stacey, Ria and Mara are saying ?
Helen 102

Jadafisk 97 and Nicole 99: since you are black women, obviously your viewpoint is the relevant and right one re: nerds and prejudice, though that is disheartening to hear. I’d based my own statements on observing the black-white and black-Asian couples I’ve known growing up on both coasts and now living in the midwest – almost all of these marriages had one or both of the partners being nerds (scientists of all types, engineers, computer geeks). Then again, these are marriages, not necessarily relationships in general.

Nicole: Not all nerds have no social skills, though probably more of them have this problem. On the whole, they tend to be more honest and blunt about things. And I completely agree with you that focusing on looks as far as LTRs is foolish.
Karl R 103

Stacey said: (#95)
“I want my man to make at least what I make (preferably more) and be in a similar (or better) financial position to me.”
“The sad truth is, we live in a very superficial world.”

Excuse me for a minute, while I soak up the irony inherent in these statements.

I found the dating world to be a far less superficial place than you do, but that difference is almost certainly a reflection of who we are and what we sought in a partner.
Kathleen 104

What I know to be true, at least for me being in the dating world after a lifetime of being married, is that the onus is on women to look as good as you possibly can. I make the investment in a personal trainer, clothes hair etc and it pays off
Clearly most of the guys in my age group online don’t feel that pressure !! LOL!!!
Mia 105

So, a guy like Evan I’m sure was used to dating attractive women when he was single. Did that mean he wanted a ltr with each and every one of them, even those who leaned back and mirrored and waited for sex? Of course not! That’s just the baseline foot in the door standard– men don’t marry the prettiest girl that will date them. I feel like I’m listening to high schoolers talk
Kathleen 106

Mia

Of course men don’t marry the prettiest girl they can get, but to attract attention in the first place is the starting point especially if we are talking about the online world
Helen 107

Karl R 103: I would agree that our experiences in relationships hinge largely upon what WE bring to the table. If we have superficial requirements, we will see superficiality in others. If we don’t, our experiences and relationships will have much more depth.

Is this necessarily a sad state of affairs for Stacey, though? I don’t know. It seems possible that if both parties have wants that we deem “superficial” (she wants money, he wants looks), then they pair well together and can be happy together. My concern is that there doesn’t seem any room for love in such an arrangement. Beyond the looks and the moolah, do they actually love each other as people? What if his money disappears or her looks disappear – is the relationship over?

But it may be possible that I am overemphasizing love. I’m trying to be open-minded about it, even if an initial reaction to this situation is unfavorable.
Tom 108

I actually admire Stacey, for knowing what she wants, and then doing something about it to get it, rather than moaning, or becoming bitter.
Mia 109

Kathleen–I get what you’re trying to say but it’s not that simple. I get frustrated bc I’m thin and pretty, 28, don’t sleep with men right away but don’t wait too long either, don’t call them unless I’m calling them back, pleasant and easygoing, and have been open to a variety of men, bald, poor, hot, hipster, nerd, old, young, writers, lawyers, businessmen, and still can’t get a boyfriend. Some I meet online, others in real life. And when I look around at who those decent men end up with they’re not prettier than me– some are far uglier and definitely aren’t as easygoing as me. I assume it’s bc they had a better connection with them or something. I’ve dated more than anyone I know too. So, I get very frustrated bc people — even Evan at times – make it seem like if you just do certain basic things you will get a bf and that is not at all true. Being pretty is one of those things but there are others.
Nicole 110

@Helen,
The rates of “marrying out” for black men is much higher than for black women, esp. as you move up the economic ladder.

So if I was placing bets, I’d imagine that most of those couples involved a black man and a woman of another race. So they prove kind of nothing for black women if that is in fact how they skewed.

I do have a lot of friends who aren’t married to black men, and none of them are with guys that are nerdy or socially awkward. But they are all with the men that chose them.

There are a lot of unfortunate stereotypes that black people deal with, but the men benefit from them when it comes to sex and love I think. But I have heard Asian males express outright FEAR at the idea of “being with ” a woman if she’s been with a black man, b/c one of my Asian friends had briefly dated a black man and her Asian male friends shared this thought.

At any rate, the steretoypes about attractivness probably hit Asian men and Black women the same way and for similar reasons. And once people have that etched in their mind, as Jadafisk pointed out, you can be VERY attractive and get treated as if you are ugly just b/c of the color of your skin. Or you can be hot stuff among men your own race but get treated like nothing around other men.

Not all “nerds” are socially awkward but then I wouldn’t necessarily call those people nerds at that point either. You can have stereotypically nerdy interests, or be in a stereotypically nerdy field but have good social skills and be an extrovert. I think of them as “nerds on paper.” I’d kind of read that way too based on my education and hobbies, but I am all kinds of social and very good with people.
Helen 111

Tom 108: The question is: would you want to marry a woman if you knew that she was marrying you primarily because you’re rich? I’m not posing this as a rhetorical question; I’m genuinely curious.

Nicole 110: It is nearly an even balance of black men and black women who have married a member of another race that I know. Re: nerds, I mostly define them based on their interests, not social skills. Guess everyone has a different definition…
lfl 112

As a women, i’m embarassed to say that many women i know would marry a man for his title and money. I’m a jewish woman from Toronto. My brother married a chinese woman and most of his buddies are always looking at asian girls, and i can’t say i blame them, but the women hate it…

I agree with stacey to an extent. Improve your fitness, wardrobe, makeup, whatever you need to do to help your chances, better to be working at improving rather than complaining how unfair everything is and doing nothing about it!
Paragon 113

@ Kathleen

“What I know to be true, at least for me being in the dating world after a lifetime of being married, is that the onus is on
women to look as good as you possibly can.”

You mean the onus is on *you*, because you can only speak from your own experiences.

@ Tom

“I actually admire Stacey, for knowing what she wants, and then doing something about it to get it, rather than moaning, or becoming bitter.”

You mean she’s not bitter?

But, I think one of the reason she’s catching some flak here, is because of her evident self-serving bias(ie. positive
outcomes are self-credited, while negative outcomes are disowned and attributed to external factors), and her
tacit double-standards(ie. she rails againt the kinds of critical judgments – which she supposes men have used to disqulify her in the past – as some great social injustice, without equal consideration of her own critical judgements in disqualifying men).

@ Nicole

“There are a lot of unfortunate stereotypes that black people deal with, but the men benefit from them when it comes to sex and love I think. But I have heard Asian males express outright FEAR at the idea of “being with ” a woman if she’s been with a black man, b/c one of my Asian friends had briefly dated a black man and her Asian male friends shared this thought.”

lol

“At any rate, the steretoypes about attractivness probably hit Asian men and Black women the same way and for similar
reasons. And once people have that etched in their mind, as Jadafisk pointed out, you can be VERY attractive and get treated as if you are ugly just b/c of the color of your skin. Or you can be hot stuff among men your own race but get treated like nothing around other men.”

Yes, but I think this may speak more strongly to factors that inhibit approaches(intimidation, concerns of reciprocty, etc)
from out-group males, rather than an indictment against black female beauty, per se.
Saint Stephen 114

I love Zaq!!!
He gets award for making the most objective posts on Evan’s blog. He says things the way they are, not how we want them to be. Objectivity is what tells you that a 6 2″ attractive guy who makes a very good income is far more likely to meet the love of his life than let’s say.. 5 8″ average looking dude on average income. And it is also what lets you see that a woman in her twenties will get more potential suitors than another in her forties.

I remember Zaq talking about the equity theory of love in one of Evan’s blog post. How relationships are formed based on what both parties bring to the table – a man bringing his wealth and experience, and the woman bring her looks.

Stacey’s, comment somehow indicates the solid truth behind the equity theory of love.

Helen asked:
What if his money disappears or her looks disappear – is the relationship over?

Answer: So? If the money disappears then according to the “equity theory of love” the relationship suffers or comes to a premature end (while she searches for someone with more money). On the flip side, if she losses her looks then he trades her for someone hotter and younger. But then she still gets to keep half is assets and his entire savings. Hence she’s adequately compensated for the cost incurred in polishing her looks.

It’s truly a meat market and we all need to learn how it works because nobody wants anybody for who they are anymore. Oh Zaq, please never stop dropping the truth hammer. I really enjoy reading your comments – you make me understand how life works.
Tom 115

Hi Helen, well Stacey didn’t explicitly say she wants a man just because he’s rich, she said she wants someone who earns similar or more than her, which I think is reasonable. A man’s job often indicates more than his ability to buy her stuff, ie his drive, determination, ambition, reliability etc. She probably wants someone with similar characteristics and who’s reasonably attractive. It’s hard not to be impressed by the lengths she went to, to land her man. Like you and Nathan, I doubt it’s the perfect template for seeking longevity but at least she’s where she wants to be for now, through her own endeavour.

@ LFL: do many men in Toronto have a title?
mara 116

@ saint stephen

‘truth hammer’? Please.
You’d be surprised how many extremely wealthy men I have turned down (all of them in fact. And the look on their faces!);

true stories:
oh, so you are playing with the keys to your Lamborghini?
whatever !
oh, so you are a famous italian football player?
whatever !
oh, so you offered me a tour on your private helicopter?
whatever!
You guys can’t buy me, because you are shallow, and ugly inside out, no matter how much money you throw around to buy people’s friendship or sex (because money cannot buy love).

You guys.
If only you knew how many quality women like me are totally put off by those rich brats who think hot women are pretty accessories for their expensive cars.

Keep thinking like this, you will attract what you deserve:
a real goldigger, so you can confirm your paranoid assumptions.

BTW
I used to be a model, and I still look like one.
Still, I’d never trade my ‘looks’ for any kind of money, and so all of my girls.
Because you know, we have legs, but we also have a brain.
And we know that this kind of men will trade you for the younger version.
Nicole 117

@Paragon 113, yes, as to the whole approach thing, it is so odd that people act like you need some special instructions to talk to black women…once again, stereotypes at work for you since we are far from a monolith.
I’ve had people ask me that and I’m like, “um, how about Hello.”
Zaq 118

Thanks Saint Stephen !

It is gratifying to know that there is someone on this blog that actually understands what I am saying.
You are indeed correct. If the dynamic in the relationship changes as a result of one partner losing something the other partner values, then yes there is trouble ahead.
Leil Lowndes gives examples of this in one of her books.

I was interested in the study that showed that women married to wealthy men have more orgasms. This gives the lie to the idea that these unions are loveless. Its not just about the money.

I’ll stick my neck out a little further. If a woman is beautiful, and she seeks a man of who is ambitious or has money, then whatever happens she should not marry anyone as attractive as her, or as young.
Why ? Because her value can only go down, and interest accumulates – his value may sky rocket. It would make sense for her to choose someone of lower value with potential.
I know a number of marriages that are under stress because the husbands are now wealthy and their wives have lost their looks. The young women the men work with see them as fair game.
Evan Marc Katz 119

Zaq and St. Stephen – I hate to publicly rebuke you as loyal blog readers, but I find much of what you write to be somewhere between insensitive, wrongheaded, and distasteful. It’s always about looks, biology, DNA, and women who are young, thin, pretty and chaste.

To our women readers who get into endless debates with these men: I apologize to you. You do not have to date them, and while they are an important (and all-too-common) representation of what many men think, they are not the men you’re looking for.

Guys who get it: Karl and Nathan. If you’re disagreeing too much with them, you should potentially reconsider your argument. That said, while I pretty much disagree with everything that Zaq and St. Stephen write, I respect their willingness to write it. It’s just kind of tiring to read – just like it is with women on here who don’t seem to understand, like or respect men.
Happy Person 120

Stacey@96: OMG, what if the scale is in stones! How can those Brits use something called a stone as a unit of weight measurement. “I weigh 70 stones!! I wanna jump off a bridge!” I think a stone is about 2 1/2 pounds.

I wanna marry Nathan!!! And I wanna kiss Karl on the cheek and then kick him in the shin! (too many data points)

Paragon, your posts are too long.
justme 121

Thanks Evan.
Paragon 122

@ Tom

” A man’s job often indicates more than his ability to buy her stuff, ie his drive, determination, ambition, reliability etc.”

A man’s particular profession only tells me ‘something’ about his relative aptitude and skill set.

But, I haven’t observed any reliable connection between the kinds of qualities you alluded to(and savvy women have come to appreciate this).

“She probably wants someone with similar characteristics”

Self-entitled and resentful?

“It’s hard not to be impressed by the lengths she went to, to land her man.”

Then why are you the only one impressed by this(ie. I imagine the surgeons did all the work)?

What concerns me about women like this, is that they come across as very resentful at having to invest any effort(or money as the case may be) in improving their relationship prospects.

To me this implies a sense of self-entitlement, which, I think is fair to say, is *not* a quality anyone looks for in a potential partner.

Personally, I’ve invested a super-human amount of time/effort into improving my prospects, and pursuing my relationship goals.

It was(and continues to be) hard work – but that is not something I blame on women.

It is simply not productive.

But, maybe I am wrong about her, because many of us come across differently online(myself included).

@ Mara

“You’d be surprised how many extremely wealthy men I have turned down (all of them in fact. And the look on their faces!);”

I believe you.

“You guys can’t buy me, because you are shallow, and ugly inside out, no matter how much money you throw around to buy people’s friendship or sex (because money cannot buy love).”

I’ve known about women like you for a long time, and I thank God for them.

“You guys.
If only you knew how many quality women like me are totally put off by those rich brats who think hot women are pretty accessories for their expensive cars.”

Yes, and you can see them frequently rejecting the losers on Millionaire matchmaker, lol.

@ Zaq

“I was interested in the study that showed that women married to wealthy men have more orgasms. ”

Yup – after all, wealthy men tend to employ pool-boys.
Zaq 123

Evan
I admit I’m insensitive here – but there is no way to sugar coat it.
I am also being insensitive to men when I say that unless you have high status and/ or tall you are also low value to women.

@Mara
Hey I know plenty of great guys, who are kind, fun, loyal and would treat you as a princess. Not the arrogant, shallow men you despise. Despite their many fine qualities, they don’t seem to be able to get a girl friend though.

They all work hard. Admittedly one of them had a set back recently because his application to become a grave digger was turned down (true!). Perhaps not the brightest guys, but definitely street smart. And bald is now a fashion statement isn’t it. Can’t imagine why they are single.
As you are not a shallow person, would you be interested in me sending you their details ?
Helen 124

Evan 119, you’re a sweetheart for wanting to defend women against these two men. Speaking for myself, I don’t find Zaq and Stephen all that bad. Biologically, I’m old enough to be Stephen’s mom (though I wasn’t reproducing at that age), so can’t be too offended by anything he says. His comments seem more clueless, emotional, and a bit shooting-from-the-hip, than having negative intention toward women.

Zaq sounds more like a Severus Snape type, total INTJ (emphasis on the T), intelligent, acerbic, and likely to make statements that would offend others without necessarily intent to offend. Just because he makes statements about young, thin, pretty women doesn’t necessarily mean that that is the type he wants; he’s more trying to present it from a purely scientific viewpoint. I can’t get too bothered by him, either. We’d probably have good intellectual discussions.

But yes, nathan, Karl R, and YOU are cool. Iconoclasts each in your own way, and seemingly happy with being unconventional.
Sheyna 125

I’d venture to guess that comments like theirs have driven more than a couple of women from this blog. I know I didn’t return to it for months and I was incredibly reluctant to read the comments for a few weeks.

“oh goody what kind of demeaning and insulting comments towards women will I see today?” Who needs that shit in their brain. The fact that it’s often unchecked just seems like a tacit endorsement.

JMO
Jadafisk 126

Paragon: “Yes, but I think this may speak more strongly to factors that inhibit approaches(intimidation, concerns of reciprocty, etc)
from out-group males, rather than an indictment against black female beauty, per se.”

Not really. I wondered this, then I looked into it in a variety of environments where men felt comfortable speaking freely about these things and the guys repeatedly, almost unanimously said, “It’s because I/we don’t find them attractive because they look black.” They were very explicit, ardent and earnest about it, and I feel that I’d be amiss and misguided to not take their word for it and continue to entertain that particular delusion that they’re “intimidated.” It does seem to be a stateside phenomenon, however, and Europeans tend to evaluate women more evenly in the aggregate.

Nicole: “But I have heard Asian males express outright FEAR at the idea of “being with ” a woman if she’s been with a black man, b/c one of my Asian friends had briefly dated a black man and her Asian male friends shared this thought.”

My boyfriend’s Asian, and while he’s never been concerned about that, I’ve seen these sentiments voiced by other groups of men, but more along the lines of enforcing a societal stigma against women who involve themselves with black men out of sheer disdain rather than fear.
IB 127

“5’4, 130 lbs with auburn hair. . . .r petite women with dark eyes, and dark hair.” Eliza, that’s funny because your description fits the “perfect woman” for many of the guys I know – petite but with hourglass figure (they don’t like skinny), auburn hair . . . the only difference is lots of men like greenish eyes with that coloring. But I don’t live in Manhattan, maybe the media influence of tall and skinny with big boobs is more ingrained in the big cities.
Evan Marc Katz 128

@Sheyna – I will simply point out that the only people who get censored here are those who directly insult another poster and people who directly insult the host. It’s not my place to shield you from the opinions of men.

Similarly, your big blind spot is that there are a LOT more demeaning and insulting comments towards MEN on this blog full of women readers. These comments go unchecked as well, but they don’t seem to bother you as much. Perhaps you will be more comfortable on a blog where all the comments denigrate men because women should never be criticized.

I don’t use “fair and balanced” as a tagline since I believe it’s already been taken, but this blog is pretty darned fair in its treatment of people.
mara 129

@ Zaq

my details are on the homepage of my website
my website is on every post I have posted

Is bald the new blonde ? huh-huh. Not for me I am afraid.
I have never wanted a stereotypically handsome model-looking man,
but one thing I was never attracted to is bald..

I am bright, well travelled and educated, funny, beautiful, I love to cook (italian food!) and I am a passionate lover.
Maybe I am too picky but why should I settle for an average man when I am definitely not an average girl?
Stacey 130

Mara, so you want a guy “above average” because you consider yourself above average based on what – the fact that you’re well traveled and love to cook? Oh my, I’ve got news for you – there’s tons of women out there who are extremely well travelled, accomplished, funny, like to cook and yada-yada-yada, yet they don’t get to turn down private helicopter tours, because, hm, nobody is offering! Forgive me if I sound a bit crass, but you’re above average because your looks are above average, dear, not because you’ve been to Milan and Tokyo and got a sense of humor. Put on a few pounds, add some wrinkles and just watch your Lamborghini and helicopter guys disappear into thin air.

Don’t get me wrong – you do deserve a guy above average, but so do us – women who have all those same qualities that you do, but lack in legs length.

You say money can’t buy you, but you are not even considering men who are not successful, are you now? You’re picking and choosing from among wealthy, accomplished, good looking guys (that is a good problem to have). So why do you think, that at the end of the day I didn’t do the same thing? Of course I wasn’t that spoiled by male attention as I grew up an ugly duckling and achieved my looks through lifestyle dieting (I had not had cake in 10 years), obsessive exercising (I run 3 marathons a year and always train for one), and multiple surgical enhancements, but all i really accomplished was leveling my playing field with you. Not completely of course, but at least to the point where I can have my pick of above average guys (who are also good partners), since I also believe that I am an above average girl. And I think I did well. Perhaps became a little jaded in the process – but I can live with that.
Helen 131

mara 129: I know you didn’t mean it this way, but your statements come across as quite arrogant. So you’re not an average girl? Well, none of us is. Each one of us deviates from average in some unique way; not the same ways as you perhaps, but ways that matter to us in any case. Likewise, there is no “average” man.

Also, your comments in 116: maybe those rich guys were just trying to impress you. That doesn’t make them “brats,” “shallow,” or “ugly inside out.” Be more like Karl R and me. When someone shows us they like or admire us, we think, “You’ve got good taste.” We don’t give them a hard time.

Rather than thinking yourself above others, why not think about what it is you want in a relationship, if indeed you want one. Do you want someone kind to come home to? A steady companion? Someone to have a family with? A best friend? You may be surprised, if you think this way, about how many of these men you deem “average” would be wonderful in a relationship.
Saint Stephen 132

Stacey to mara @ (#130)
Very well said, and i wholeheartedly concur.
Zaq 133

@Helen

Yes pretty perceptive, but I’m far too extrovert to be an INTJ.

In my defense, I should say that a number of women here do seem a little too quick to interpret what I am saying in a negative way.
Someone told me I was being insulting to suggest that women were more likely to be a 5 than a 7. What ??

Yet, women make statements which at the very least contain logical inconsistencies – “I don’t discriminate against short men, I just wouldn’t date one!”
The short woman who cannot accept that the average male is less than 6 feet.
Even on this thread we have – ” ….has ZERO marriage prospects with her equals”. Really having trouble with that word ‘equal’
And apparently its shallow to desire an attractive woman, but said woman would in no way be shallow in rejecting bald men.

Helen, please explain it to them !

Also please note, I do not condemn women for having unrealistic expectations. Indeed I try to explain why they have them.
mara 134

@ Stacey

to the cost of appearing arrogant I will tell you Stacey that I do not consider myself above average because I say so, or because I cook well.

I have been constantly told by all of my boyfriends that I am the funniest girl they have ever met (not just dated) and the sweetest too.
I have had famous fashion guru buying articles from my blog (humorous of course) and other magazines too.
I have had every single person I know tell me at least once « you are hysterical ! why dont’ you do stand up comedy ? » and every time I go out well, if I start telling anecdotes or jokes you can be sure people will be rolling on the floor laughing.
A humor, many women have.
My humo ris a tad more that that, I am constantly reminded.

Brains and looks :
I am a Phd that speaks fluently 3 languages (self taught), knows how to cook, photographs, style, retouch, professional digital capture (digitek), write, act, model.
All of the above have been paid jobs, not ‘talents’ I assert I have.
I have learnt to read and write by myself at age 3 and 4 (backwards, because I am left-handed..) and it turned out real fast that my IQ is well above average.
That’s why I graduated with full grades, and even in high school some teacher had to give me separate tests because the usual test were too easy for me.

Looks : I am a model turned fashion photographer, and even though it’s been a while I am behind the lens people who don’t know me still mistake me for a model.

I am also incredibly patient and sweet to men (way too patient : that’s what I am working on with my shrink, that’s how I ended up with a couple of abusers).

I am also honest, faithful, I love to be do my hair and makeup for my man, I drive cars and bikes, I have a passion for books and movies, and all the moms of my ex bf loved me so much I am still getting texts from my ex ex’s mom.

I am a passionate lover, a generous friend, and I keep my promises.

Now, if you think this is not accurate and I am some kind of arrogant mythomaniac I am totally fine with this.

I am not ‘perfect’, nobody is, I can make a list of my shortcomings if this is going to make anyone feel better and
I am sorry if I offended anyone by saying that I am not average – by no means I imply any judgment against women in this blog I don’t even know – but would you really define what I wrote here is average ? %)

@ Helen

« So you’re not an average girl? Well, none of us is. …Likewise, there is no “average” man »

Helen, this sound like a mom telling her son « everyone is special ! everyone is beautiful in his own unique way ».

I might sound brutally honest but I do not believe a bit in these statements.
If everyone is special, then no one is.
If everyone is beautiful, why is Angela Lindvall a top model and not my neighbor ?

I believe there is such thing as genetic lottery, there are average men and women, above average, and below average.
Sad, but true.

What I originally posted about turning down arrogant rich brats got completely twisted and taken out of context.

I would not turn down a man that I find attractive and intelligent,JUST because he is rich.

But I have definitely turned down tons of men who were trying to impress me throwing me their money in my face as if this is what you do to seduce a woman, and it was pretty clear they weren’t used to do much else than that, given the look of shock in their faces when I didn’t « fall » for their car & so.

Because you know, this is how you seduce a goldigger or a prostitute, not me.

And the fact that even if I had as a model this kind of men around me I preferred to go out with a student turned later on ‘just’ an humble architect, or guys that made pretty much the same money as me well,
I think it shows what my soul is made of and what kind of soulmate I am looking for.
=)
Stacey 135

Lol Mara, you missed my point. I believe you that you’re wonderful – more power to you! So are many, many other women. I graduated from a top 3 university in the US and I promise, promise you that everybody there spoke more than one language, travelled the world, was super smart, and eventually proceeded to making lots of $$. Yet the only 2 things that seemed to correlate with women’s success in dating/mating, jusging by the 10yr reunion, were their looks and family connections, not all of those other meaningful things. I hope you find a right guy, best of luck!
Saint Stephen 136

Mara, i don’t intend to sound mean, but your last post looks like an essay written for a match.com profile. Besides, men don’t price women for having all your aforementioned qualities. The basic factor of attraction is being attractive and fertile, and that’s the part where I and Stacey is in agreement.
You said you weren’t looking for a handsome guy with a hot-model looking bod. But you won’t date the balding guy and i also suspect you won’t date a short guy, so guess the kind of men that leaves us with. Gbam! – … figured out already. I can certainly tell that same looks theory also applies with money.

Having a good sense of humor is a good thing, but that is a quality that is highly priced in men – not women. For the most part what men want is someone who laughs at our joke… cos that’s just one of the way we know a woman is interested in us.
Tom 137

Wow Mara, you sound even more beautiful and accomplished than Samantha Brick! I’m glad you’d consider dating “an humble architect” (sic) like myself though!

I must concur with St. Stephen and Stacey; as interesting as your resume is, I reckon 99% of it is irrelevant to most men.
Nicole 138

@Jadafisk 126, the “fear” I mentioned was fear of “measuring up” although I’m aware of the idea that a woman who allows a black man to touch her is sullied and dirty. It’s been the basis of violence against black men for generations.

So the friend in question had told me about it and I’ve been out with them and what they expressed really was concern that they could no longer satisfy her or other women who had slept with black men. (I’ve unfortunately been privy to too many of those conversations about people of other races trying or wanting to try out (or having tried out) sex with a black man, although men approach black women with the same garbage).
Karl R 139

mara said: (#134)
“I am a Phd that speaks fluently 3 languages”
“I have learnt to read and write by myself at age 3 and 4 (backwards, because I am left-handed..) and it turned out real fast that my IQ is well above average.”
“That’s why I graduated with full grades, and even in high school some teacher had to give me separate tests because the usual test were too easy for me.”

Could you do me a favor? If you’re that much brighter and better educated than “average”, would you mind writing at collegiate level?

I’ll find it easier to read your posts if you do. In addition, your claims of intellectual prowress will be more credible.

mara said: (#129)
“Maybe I am too picky but why should I settle for an average man when I am definitely not an average girl?”

Would you mind clicking the link in my name and watching a little bit of the YouTube video? (30 seconds should be enough to convey the idea.) It’s not a prepared dance routine. It’s just some shit I was making up on the fly.

Are you my equal on the dance floor?

If not, why should I settle for someone like you? I’m clearly above average. Why should I settle for someone who is not?

That probably doesn’t seem like a reasonable comparison. I’m taking an area where I’m significantly above average, then I’m expecting you to measure up to that standard.

And if you happen to be my equal on the dance floor (or even reasonably close), I have several other traits that I could use to establish a different mismatched comparison.

If I expected women to measure up to my strongest points, I’d rule out every woman I’ve ever dated … possibly every woman I’ve ever met.

If I rule out every woman I meet, then I completely screw myself over in the dating market.

The only solution was for me to date women who weren’t nearly as impressive when compared to my strongest traits. On the other hand, they had some strengths of their own, sometimes in areas where I was fairly weak.

Dating is not a meritocracy. The best spouses/relationships don’t necessary go to the most deserving individuals (regardless of how you define that word).

Instead of worrying about what I deserved, I focused on what I could get. After a few years of dating, I had a good idea of what the top end of the range looked like. (They have their own strengths and weaknesses, but they are each wonderful women in their own way.) When I ended up in a great relationship with one of those wonderful women, I kept her.

Happy Person said: (#120)
“I wanna kiss Karl on the cheek and then kick him in the shin!”

That’s the reaction I’m generally going for.
Helen 140

This whole string of comments is getting pretty funny.

If you (“you” generically) are so intelligent, you shouldn’t have to tell other people. It should be obvious from the way you communicate – not just the use of proper grammar, but also the ability to construct logical statements. Honestly, all the bragging – “I went to this school,” “I got this degree,” “I snagged a guy who is this filthy rich,” “I’m this beautiful” – comes across as desperation, whether or not it’s true. Why does it matter so much what we, perfect strangers, think of you anyway?

Stephen 136: from personal experience, I agree with your last paragraph. Guys love it when a woman laughs at their jokes. They don’t care whether she herself is uproariously funny.

Tom 137: my above paragraph notwithstanding, and I’m not trying to make an impression – your first sentence here had me doubled over in laughter.
Paragon 141

@ Jadafisk

“Not really. I wondered this, then I looked into it in a variety of environments where men felt comfortable speaking freely about these things and the guys repeatedly, almost unanimously said, “It’s because I/we don’t find them attractive because they look black.” They were very explicit, ardent and earnest about it, and I feel that I’d be amiss and misguided to not take their word for it and continue to entertain that particular delusion that they’re “intimidated.” It does seem to be a stateside phenomenon, however, and Europeans tend to evaluate women more evenly in the aggregate.”

Black women deviate quite remarkably from all other human female clinal variants on earth, so I should expect that the principle of Koinophilia would limit out-group pairings somewhat more than normal.

But, as you alluded to, there is some other local factor at work here – following from a history of socialized prejudice(which would explain why black women are particularly excluded, give that males tend to be the initiating sex).

@ Mara

“Is bald the new blonde ? huh-huh. Not for me I am afraid.
I have never wanted a stereotypically handsome model-looking man, but one thing I was never attracted to is bald..

I am bright, well travelled and educated, funny, beautiful, I love to cook (italian food!) and I am a passionate lover.
Maybe I am too picky but why should I settle for an average man when I am definitely not an average girl?”

Hmmm.

I think the problem with this logic, is that the perception of male normal(held by women) is so demonstratedly skewed, that this renders an insoluble scarcity of male candidates(as many women are finding to be the case – which is why all the above *average* women can never possibly be paired off with an above *average* man, by their likely estimation at least).

I don’t know what kind of relationship you’re looking for, but if it’s one that is long-term, realistically, you’re probably
going to have to prune some of your checklist(or not, if you’re content being alone – which many single women are) – *stable* LTRs are all about trading off short term gains(Physical chemistry, etc), for long term considerations(relationship stability, etc.).

I think this is something that everyone needs to reconcile before determining if a LTR is not only something that they want, but more importantly, something that their expectations are amenable to.

“Brains and looks :
I am a Phd that speaks fluently 3 languages (self taught), knows how to cook, photographs, style, retouch, professional digital capture (digitek), write, act, model.
All of the above have been paid jobs, not ‘talents’ I assert I have. I have learnt to read and write by myself at age 3 and 4 (backwards, because I am left-handed..) and it turned out real fast that my IQ is well above average.
That’s why I graduated with full grades, and even in high school some teacher had to give me separate tests because the usual test were too easy for me.”

I don’t understand this part of your checklist(if I am right in assuming this).

What is the ‘relationship value’ in any of this(is it just a priori ego validation)?

If I were to apply the same ‘logic’ to my own expectations, I should have been waiting on a female who simply doesn’t
exist.

It’s a good thing I didn’t.

“I believe there is such thing as genetic lottery, there are average men and women, above average, and below average. Sad, but true.”

Yes, but I wonder if you would be surprised to learn that many of these socio-economic status indicators are *not* correlated with reproductive fitness, in the way you might expect(ie. according to popular assumptions).
Goldie 142

Holy smokes, this thread has been taken over by the beautiful people, and they’re scaring me to death. How’s being so shallow working out for you guys?

Helen, I’m with ya on the nerds/geeks. I want a soul mate in my life, not a damn trophy.
Nathan 143

Just spent the day working a large garden plot with four friends, three of them women. All attractive in their own ways. But when I think about it, there is a simple reason why they are attractive. Each is fully herself. No trying to be someone else. Little or no obsessing about tiny physical imperfections. They each seem to have a good sense of their weaknesses too, which from what I have witnessed, means that they’re more likely to show compassion for others. Being confident in themselves without arrogance – that’s attractive.
Nathan 144

Oh, and thank you to those who offered kind words about me. Much appreciated.
Goldie 145

@ Mara’s quote (just saw it in #142, cannot find original post)

“Is bald the new blonde ? huh-huh. Not for me I am afraid.
I have never wanted a stereotypically handsome model-looking man, but one thing I was never attracted to is bald”

Hmm, I just looked up male pattern baldness, and looks like what you’re saying here is that you plan on spending your old age either alone or pretending not to notice that your man wears a hairpiece. Or putting up with a douche because he’s one of the few men that still has hair.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldness

“according to Medem Medical Library’s website, male pattern baldness (MPB) affects roughly 40 million men in the United States. Approximately 25 percent of men begin balding by age 30; two-thirds begin balding by age 60. … One large scale study in Maryborough, Victoria, Australia showed the prevalence of mid-frontal baldness increases with age and affects 73.5 percent of men and 57 percent of women aged 80 and over. … There is a 4 in 7 chance of receiving the baldness gene”

What I’m saying here is, I’m not a huge fan of using superficial, unrealistic criteria in finding a life partner. Not only are you limiting your dating pool when you do that, (and like Helen, I also mean generic you), you’re overlooking a lot of quality people because they do not meet one of your bizarre requirements. Only person you’re hurting in the process is yourself. There are plenty of real deal-breakers (abusive physically or verbally, addicted to alcohol, nicotine or drugs, the list goes on) to bring innocent things like baldness into the picture.

@ Helen & St Stephen, re sense of humor, hmm, that’s not my experience. Guys seem to really like it that I’m funny (their words). Either that, or they have all conspired to lie to me about the same thing. I, too, like it when a man makes me laugh, as to me it speaks of his positive outlook and being able to see the bright (funny) side in things. My biggest turn-on is when a man can laugh at himself – that was how my BF beat the competition

That said, yeah looks are important. As my church friends used to say when I still went to church, we’re a depraved species living in a fallen world… looking good helps. I first discovered it when at 17, I stopped wearing eyeglasses (think ugly 80s glasses) and everyone suddenly started treating me like a different person. My 16yo son has just discovered it, when he lost 45 pounds and some people in school started treating him like he’s a different person. We both had the same reaction to this… disgusted and shocked at how shallow we humans are. But that’s the cards we’ve been dealt. I try to look okay and take care of my appearance, because that’s how the game is played. It’s been easy lately, because apparently I age better than most of my peers (gamn gene lottery — my mom was the same way). I’m not thrilled about looks being so important, but I play along. But at the end of the say, they’re just looks. Looks will get you into an LTR, but they alone won’t keep you there.
Saint Stephen 146

@Goldie (#145)
Nice counterpoint. Sorry for not being clear in the first, but this is not about personal experience per se, it’s a well documented fact. Perhaps this article will shed more light.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/5083702/Men-can-laugh-women-into-bed-with-GSOH-say-psychologists.html

Women are attracted to funny guys, but I’m afraid the reverse doesn’t hold true.
Goldie 147

@ SS, I see one sentence in your article.

“While women appear to prefer a men who makes them laugh, the psychologists say that previous studies have shown that the same does not hold true when the sexes are reversed – and men are not more attracted to funny girls. ”

How is that “well-documented”?

Okay I admit, maybe there are men who don’t pay attention to what comes out of their woman’s mouth, as long as she looks good enough, so they cannot tell a “funny girl” from an unfunny one. Sucks to be those men, and the women that happened to get stuck with them.
Zaq 148

There you go Goldie, plenty on this one.

All women have to do is SMILE – men have to do the funny stuff

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/humor-sapiens/201106/are-women-more-attracted-men-who-court-them-humor
Sue 149

So if you downgrade your number, let’s say from a 9 to a six in order to fit the person that is in your league, doesn’t that make you a 9 or 10 in that person’s eyes?
Karl R 150

Sue asked: (#149)
“So if you downgrade your number, let’s say from a 9 to a six in order to fit the person that is in your league, doesn’t that make you a 9 or 10 in that person’s eyes?”

That depends on what you mean.

I would not claim to be a 9 or a 10 (in physical appearance), though a few women might view me that way. Similarly, I would not claim my fiancée is a 9 or a 10 in physical appearance.

However, I also wouldn’t claim that physical appearance is the most important quality. Overall, I’d say she’s easily a 9. I’d say our relationship is a 10.

What is most meaningful to you?
Helen 151

mara 134: Most of your accomplishments are not things men care about when choosing a mate, as several have noted here already. In fact, they may detract from your value if the impression you give is that you’ll always be running around elsewhere doing something with your talents, and consequently have no time for him.

Men aren’t jerks for thinking this way. I’m a woman, and I wouldn’t care for all these traits in my man either. I’d wonder if he had time for me and any kids we might have. I’d wonder if he always thought himself superior to me; not because he has more accomplishments than me, but because he feels the need to list them and call himself “above average.”

Here’s my advice (which I haven’t seen yet on this board): Marry someone who has clearly shown that he or she has a sense of humility. That’ll make your married life MUCH easier. Just about the most annoying type of person you could marry is someone who’s always comparing himself/herself to others.

Goldie 142: yeah, nerds rock the house. Who cares if they appear awkward to others. We know how terrific they are.
Paragon 152

@ Sue

“So if you downgrade your number, let’s say from a 9 to a six in order to fit the person that is in your league ,doesn’t that make you a 9 or 10 in that person’s eyes?”

How can you ‘downgrade’ a value that is based on the estimation of *others*?

If you are compelled to do so, it stands to reason that you were over-valuating yourself to begin with.
Soul 153

@ Karl :
You said: “Could you do me a favor? If you’re that much brighter and better educated than “average”, would you mind writing at collegiate level?
I’ll find it easier to read your posts if you do. In addition, your claims of intellectual prowress will be more credible.”

Karl, I like you very much and I normally agree with many of your arguments in other discussions. However, this one post of yours is really bad, and mean. I thought you were driven by facts, not emotions. Well…. here you reacted way too emotionally, and you forgot to think. so for the record:
1) Having a PhD does not mean that one can write properly (it could be PhD in maths, or in Arts, or any other subject that does not require you to write long or beautiful sentences;
2) Still, Mara could be from a different country and English might not be her first language
3) Attacking sb on their writing is not fair and it dos not make a convincing argument anyway

It was just my 2 cents,

PS: Oups, please do not attack me on my bad grammar: English is not my first (or even second or third) language sorry!!
Karl R 154

Soul said: (#153)
“this one post of yours is really bad, and mean. I thought you were driven by facts, not emotions.”

I’m driven by facts. Not everyone is. If I’m trying to make a point to the other half of the population, I will sometimes have to step away from the facts and address emotions.

mara is very impressed by her own intellectual accomplishments, and she seems to believe that men will be similarly impressed. I’m one of the men who values intelligence, and she has completely failed to impress me.

Men don’t select women based on their résumés. If a woman can communicate intelligently, we view her as intelligent. If she can’t, we don’t. We’re going to date the woman, not hire her. If a woman is communicating verbally, that will be based upon how she speaks. If it’s written communication (like an online profile), it will be based on how she writes.

If a woman is speaking poorly because she’s not speaking her primary language, then her intellect “doesn’t count” for that language.

It doesn’t matter whether you believe this is fair. (My strong suit is math/logic, not writing/communication, so it’s certainly not advantageous to me.) But inside my relationships, the main form of intellect I exercise is communication and interpersonal skills. It makes sense why those get the most weight.

Soul said: (#153)
“1) Having a PhD does not mean that one can write properly (it could be PhD in maths, or in Arts, or any other subject that does not require you to write long or beautiful sentences;”

Look up some doctoral theses online. You choose the subject: math, arts, any other subject.

Find one that didn’t require much writing.

If mara has a Ph.D., then she did a lot of writing along the way. Beautiful sentences probably weren’t required. Correct sentences certainly were.
Joe 155

Gotta say Karl is spot-on. Mara sounds like an amazing, accomplished woman, but if she wrote her proposal and thesis the way she writes posts here, her advisor would toss them back to her after reading the first paragraph. Three times, apparently, since she says she’s got three PhDs.
Helen 156

Karl R & Joe: you’re both being a bit harsh here.

Joe: Every poor PhD student gets his/her dissertation tossed back multiple times, regardless of the quality of the writing. Besides, mara didn’t say she had 3 PhDs; she said she has a PhD and speaks 3 languages fluently.

Karl R, you wrote: ‘If a woman is speaking poorly because she’s not speaking her primary language, then her intellect “doesn’t count” for that language.’ Wow – I’m afraid I have to disagree strongly with this one. Intellect manifests itself in many ways that don’t depend upon the fluency of one’s adopted language. She might have “street smarts,” even in a foreign nation. She might have the ability to read people and their intentions easily. She might know how to navigate around difficult situations. She might possess the emotional intelligence to gain friends and lovers. And she can do quantitative reasoning in any language.

Are you saying that, as a man who values intellect, you would not consider an intelligent woman who is not fluent in English?
Nicole 157

@Helen,
I can’t speak for them but my guess is that it is hard for your intellect to shine through if you are speaking in a second language, and that can last a lifetime. Conversation can be really important to some people, and being able to have a conversation with a partner can be what men like Karl want. (And i’m on board with that idea myself).

At any rate, having recently finished a graduate program with a lot of classmates for whom English was a second language (and yet it was a program where communication is a necessity), many of them acknowledged and kind of had two different personalities depending on which language they were using. We had a really great conversation at a dinner party about how the people who didn’t share their language (some students did) didn’t really know them at all. They readily admitted that we only had a partial glimpse b/c they didn’t speak English well and we didn’t speak their languages. It wasn’t intentional, but people who were chatty, outgoing, and confident in their native tongues were sometimes quiet and more withdrawn in a crowd of English speakers. And yes, it did impact relationships and the ability to have certain interactions with other students.

He’s not full of it or mean for admitting that. I’m around a lot of non-English speakers and the difference between them is night in day when they are in English vs. their mother tongue. It kind of reminds me of how some of these silly stereotypes about women from certain countries get started. I see some women giggle when someone says something that they dont’ understand. And they aren’t gigglers in other settings.

Plus, Mara did set herself up by bragging about her background and then lacking the ability to write well enough to back it up.

See, all of the women who brag about being supermodels don’t ever have to back up their bragging b/c we can’t see them. Unfortunately for Mara, she bragged about her intelligence and then followed up with a lot of poor writing (and apologies indeed if it is b/c she is writing in another tongue, but I wouldn’t go onto a website in a foreign language bragging about how brilliant I was if I wasn’t fully fluent in that language). She unintentionally backed herself into a corner saying something that sounded ridiculous based on how her post was written.
Karl R 158

Helen asked: (#156)
“Are you saying that, as a man who values intellect, you would not consider an intelligent woman who is not fluent in English?”

Not unless we shared fluency in some other language.

It’s nearly impossible to have an intelligent conversation with someone if you can barely converse. I’m more likely to have an intelligent conversation with someone who has only average intelligence.

In the past I dated a couple women who were close to average intelligence, but whom possessed communication skills which equalled or exceeded mine. It works both ways.

Helen said: (#156)
“Intellect manifests itself in many ways that don’t depend upon the fluency of one’s adopted language.”

That’s completely true. It’s also completely irrelevant.

When is the last time you asked your husband to do quantitative reasoning for you?
Helen 159

Karl R: “When is the last time you asked your husband to do quantitative reasoning for you?”

We do it together all the time. How can you not when you’re a couple, unless you keep completely separate finances? We talk about investing, saving, spending, etc. – I won’t reveal too much more. But it seems self-evident that you want to have a mate who is able to reason quantitatively.

Nicole: I didn’t say that Karl was full of it or mean. And I agree with you that mara did set herself up. My beef with her is not the same one Karl and Joe had: I do believe she is intelligent. However, she seems extremely self-conscious, which is not the best trait in someone seeking a long-term relationship.
Soul 160

@Karl:

I am sorry to say that I think your latest comments are not only irrelevant , but they are anything BUT logic (sorry, sorry, sorry…. please forgive me loool).

My writing is bad despite the fact that I have a PhD in Economics (360 pages written in English)…. Oh ! and my writing in French is excellent so it is certainly true that you would prefer to read the 600-page PhD dissertation that I have written in FRench (in another subject). However, my Econ dissertation is much better research-wise, and I have gained much more recognition for it.

On a last note, intelligence and communication CAN be related, but they DON’T HAVE to. If communication is important for you, then you should simply state that communication is important for you.

If A+B=C, and B=C, then A =…… (fill in th
. If YOU are smart, you’ll be able to answer that question and even if you make poor sentences in French, or German, or Chinese, another intelligent/tolerant human being will understand.
Soul 161

# @ Karl:

I should probably add that based on your different posts and comments, you seem to be extremely smart. It would be stupid to judge you or your logic based on just a few sentences, thrown on a the web, in God only knows what circumstances…. It is never a good idea to jump too fast to conclusions about others
Margaret 162

I really get depressed when i read the comments of the men here, but Karl and Nathan give me faith. And Evan, I can take it, I appreciate that you do not censor, for the most part.
Karl R 163

Helen said: (#159)
“But it seems self-evident that you want to have a mate who is able to reason quantitatively.”

We will probably keep our finances far more separate than you and your husband do. We certainly don’t consult each other on our investments, and we have rather different investment styles.

But provided she can manage her personal finances (which the average person is capable of), her quantitative skills aren’t nearly as important as her ability to converse intelligently. I’m marrying her, not hiring her.

And if you want to use Soul’s example (#160) of quantitative analysis, do you find that to be stimulating conversation?

Personally, I find a good joke to be far more stimulating … and that’s highly dependent on language usage.

Soul said: (#160)
“If communication is important for you, then you should simply state that communication is important for you.”

I’m not sure how this is relevant to what I said to mara, or what I said to you earlier.

However, communication is important to all relationships. (Or do you disagree with that?) But there is a difference between communicating, and being able to communicate intelligently. Unintelligent communication is a turn-off.

More importantly, if you communicate in an unintelligent manner, people will assume that you’re unintelligent. We’re not giving an IQ test to every person we meet. We’re not checking what kind of grades they got in school. We’re not checking to see what kind of education they had. We communicate, and then we draw conclusions about their intelligence.

Soul said: (#161)
“It is never a good idea to jump too fast to conclusions about others”

If someone (on the internet) says, “I am a Phd”, is it jumping too fast to conclusions to assume that they’re telling the truth?

This is the internet. I could claim to be a U.S. Senator.

Instead of assuming the person is telling the truth, we may seek some corroborating evidence (like looking at the way they use language). In fact, we may place more weight on the supporting evidence than the person’s claim.

Humans make quick assumptions about others. It’s a survival trait that we evolved with. You can claim that “it is never a good idea”, but that doesn’t change the fact that we have all evolved to do it. We all do it, often without even being aware of it.

If mara wants other people (like her potential dates) to assume she is intelligent, then she needs to communicate intelligently. Or she can brag about having a Ph.D., having a high IQ, speaking 3 languages, etc. … which will probably go over about as well as it did here.
Happy Person 164

Karl@139: I’m a really good above-average dancer, too! I’ve even done it professionally, much to the dismay of the really way above-average dancers. (OK, I worked on a cruise ship once and I had to do it as part of my job.) I travelled all around the world doing that above-average dancing, too. And I spoke several languages very awkwardly in port, mostly in restaurants. (You would not believe how much there is to know about tipping in other countries.)

I would say that I am squarely above average. Woo hoo!!!!!
Paragon 165

@ Helen

“My beef with her is not the same one Karl and Joe had: I do believe she is intelligent.”

I began forming a critical opinion the moment it became evident that her arguments were following from obviously spurious assumptions, and failed to identify(or at least speak to) her own self-serving biases.
Helen 166

Karl R: it’s probable that our experiences in marriage are / will be very different. You are starting relatively later in life, and you mentioned that you are not having children, which substantially changes the picture.

Nonetheless – marriage is only a small part about stimulating conversations, and a much larger part about the mundane and practical realities of everyday life. Lori Gottlieb got that right. Obviously hub and I don’t have the kind of hypothetical conversations Soul posited. But our conversations are largely practical, and every day I am grateful to be married to someone who is as responsible as he is. I have friends who fell in love with “pie in the sky” idealistic philosopher-types (truthfully, we both started out that way and became more practical with time), who became very frustrated in marriage because one partner was always mooning around and leaving all the mundane chores and practical planning to the other. Good conversation and ability to joke aren’t enough. In fact, it gets downright frustrating if that’s all the other partner can offer, as I’ve witnessed among my friends.

Not to say that this is your situation. However, marriage turns out to be more about practicalities than stimulating conversation, however rewarding the latter is. It is the former that you’ll come to value far more in your lover. If you’re fortunate, you’ll have both.
Karl R 167

Helen said: (#166)
“every day I am grateful to be married to someone who is as responsible as he is.”

I doubt that you’re suggesting that responsibility is a function of intelligence.

If you’re suggesting that there are traits more important than intelligence in determining the long-term success of a relationship, I completely agree.

But that just goes back to what Tom said (#137). 99% of mara’s list is irrelevant to men.

Your point, while correct, doesn’t challenge my assertions that we judge people’s intelligence based upon their ability to communicate, and that we place a higher importance (inside relationships) upon the ability to communicate intelligently rather than academic achievements or the ability to perform quantitative analyses.

Helen said: (#166)
“Good conversation and ability to joke aren’t enough.”

I agree. But I’ve saved myself from considerable grief inside relationships by being able to communicate what is bothering me (and other concerns) in a manner that is inoffensive to my partner.
Helen 168

Karl R: “Your point, while correct, doesn’t challenge my assertions that we judge people’s intelligence based upon their ability to communicate, and that we place a higher importance (inside relationships) upon the ability to communicate intelligently rather than academic achievements or the ability to perform quantitative analyses.”

First point: I routinely judge people’s intelligence on factors other than their ability to communicate. If we differ on this point, that’s fine. Don’t know about you, but in my workplace and particular community activity, I’m surrounded by non-native English speakers. They may not communicate well in English, but it is obvious to all of us here that they are brilliant, both in theoretical and in practical matters.

Second point: I never stated that, in relationships, communicating intelligently was less important than academic achievements or quantitative abilities. I do consider it less important than other things: humility, kindness, responsibility, love, loyalty.

Karl, I am not trying to debate your earlier points. I was, however, surprised at your assessment of mara – but it could be a function of our individual tastes and experiences working with and befriending foreigners.
Goldie 169

@ Helen:

“Nonetheless – marriage is only a small part about stimulating conversations, and a much larger part about the mundane and practical realities of everyday life. … Good conversation and ability to joke aren’t enough. ”

While I agree that they aren’t enough, they do not, in my opinion, constitute “only a small part” of a marriage. Possibly with exception of the time when the children are infants and toddlers — in that case, yeah, both parents would prefer a good nap to a stimulating conversation any day. But children grow up fast, and if, by the time they’re in their preteens and teens, parents have no communication going on between them other than about bills and household chores, and no activities they do together as a couple other than housework, yardwork, and occasional sex… it doesn’t bode well for the marriage.

Also, good communication and the ability to do “mundane chores and practical planning” aren’t mutually exclusive. Likewise, one can spend all day watching TV, drinking, and basically not having an intelligent thought all day, and still not do any chores or practical planning. Or, the other way around, two well-communicating people can organize and perform their chores more efficiently together as a team, leaving themselves more free time to pursue their favorite pie in the sky, be it concerts, exhibits, lectures, travel, what have you.
Karl R 170

Helen said: (#168)
“in my workplace and particular community activity, I’m surrounded by non-native English speakers. They may not communicate well in English, but it is obvious to all of us here that they are brilliant, both in theoretical and in practical matters.”

You work in an academic environment. The majority of the members of that environment are regularly tested (formally and informally) on their intelligence and knowledge.

Furthermore, their presence in the academic community implies a certain degree of brilliance.

Meet someone in a bar (or on the street) in a major city. How do you evaluate their intelligence if they’re a poor communicator?

Let me give you a counterexample:
My fiancée’s stepmother has moderate/severe Alzheimer’s. The first area hit was her speech center. She struggles to put together 2 to 3 word sentences.

Because of her inability to communicate, we have no way to measure the progress of the disease in other areas. If she fails to perform a simple task, does it mean she didn’t understand what was being asked? Does she still know how to perform the task? Did she forget what she was doing in the middle of the task?

Two months ago we were debating whether she had mistaken her husband for her father. Since she rarely remembers/uses anyone’s name, there’s a great deal of ambiguity. She clearly recognizes people, but we don’t know if she comprehends their relationship to her.

That’s a bit of an extreme example, so I’ll provide a second one. How do you determine if someone understands a highly nuanced idea if they lack the vocabulary to discuss the idea in that degree of detail?
Helen 171

Karl R: are you saying the last is relevant to mara? That was what had kicked off the discussion in the first place. She wasn’t responding to a question of yours. She was trying to communicate why she believes herself to be above average. Clearly she got her ideas across (otherwise we wouldn’t all be debating them), even if her English wasn’t stellar and even if these particular traits, however above average they may be, are not all important in a relationship.

Also – what makes you think I work in an academic environment? It is a research and production environment. For the record, I do have a PhD and know three languages fluently, like mara, but don’t regard that as special. Many people worldwide have both traits, and far more impressive ones. Even those who don’t have these traits have other skills I admire.

Goldie: which real-live married couples do you know who have stimulating conversations regularly? Doing things together is important, yes.
Goldie 172

@ Helen: A lot of my friends are like that, as in, they enjoy each other’s company, talk about things other than what’s on TV, and do things together that are more intellectually challenging than watching TV (which a couple isn’t going to do if they don’t have an intellectual connection to begin with). Then again, many couples I know never do any of these things. As long as both people are fine with whatever arrangement they have, awesome. I just disagree with your statement that a good marriage always has to be all boredom and chores. It doesn’t have to be that way.
Karl R 173

Helen said: (#171)
“She was trying to communicate why she believes herself to be above average. Clearly she got her ideas across (otherwise we wouldn’t all be debating them),”

Was she trying to communicate why she believes herself to be above average, or was she trying to communicate that she is above average? If you start reading at (#134), it seems to be the former. If you start reading at (#129), it seems to be the latter.

Just a little nuance of communication.

My suspicion is that she was trying to communicate the latter, and actually communicated the former.

And as you pointed out (#140), she could have accomplished the latter far more effectively just through the way she communicated.
Helen 174

Goldie: whoa, what? I never stated what you claimed: “I just disagree with your statement that a good marriage always has to be all boredom and chores.” Where did you get this from? Certainly not from me.

Marriage is anything but boring. It’s wonderful.
Goldie 175

@ Helen, this is what it comes across, at least to me, when you say (here as well as on multiple previous threads):

“…marriage is only a small part about stimulating conversations, and a much larger part about the mundane and practical realities of everyday life.”

What does mundane mean if not boring? Boring is not necessarily a bad thing to everyone. You can call it stable if you like. Stable is good. A lot of people loooove stable.

Anyway, what I am trying to say is — I understand your kids are pretty young still, so you may not realize it now, but, after a certain point (certainly after they move out or leave for college), the volume of “mundane and practical realities” drops, in comparison to what it used to be, to almost zero. (Because, seriously, how much housework do two adults who are out of the house 10-12 hours of the day, really require to keep themselves clean and fed?) I’ve known quite a few couples (was a part of one) who, at that point, found they had nothing to talk about, because they’d grown apart. Practical realities of everyday life was the only thing holding them together. When those went away, they had nothing left. In our case, we also didn’t do much around the house together. He did the bare minimum when repeatedly asked to, and I did what I could on my own. My parents helped as well. So we didn’t even have the “practical realities” in common. When I talked to my husband about it, saying in these exact words “there’s nothing the two of us enjoy doing together, not even housework” he said that he was aware of it and that it was okay. “Not every marriage has to be perfect”. Well to me, there’s not quite perfect and then there is complete lack of communication, and I don’t believe these two are the same, so I took the kids and moved out.

I assume there’s more intellectual stimulation in your family than you give yourselves credit for. You two just take it for granted, because you’ve always had it, and you don’t know firsthand what it means to not have any.
Helen 176

Goldie: I don’t mean this in a harsh way (believe me, we’ve agreed on enough things in the past), but it seems that you’re taking out your frustrations from your previous marriage on me. No two people’s and no two couples’ experiences are the same, so you cannot generalize from your own experience to what’s going on with mine. You don’t know my kids’ ages (I sympathized with Evan in one post about his babysitting spell, but that doesn’t mean I have a baby), nor the amount of intellectual stimulation in our household.

I’m sorry things didn’t work out with your ex. He sounds like a slacker, which would have frustrated me more than the lack of communication.
Nicole 177

Actually Helen, you’re being passive-aggressive towards Goldie by suggesting that she can’t contribute meaningfully to the conversation because she got divorced.

On the contrary, she gives a LOT of insight to people who have never been married b/c she is able to speak rationally about what did and did not work in her marriage.

At any rate, it’s not really fair to insult someone to win an argument. It’s called derailing.

I personally made the point too that it IS hard to judge someone’s intelligence or more importantly, some of the important parts of their personality, humor, compassion, empathy when you don’t share a common language with someone. It is really hard to really connect with someone who can only say a few words to you. Granted, some people LIKE that, but it does matter to others, and that’s not a small need to some of us.

I’ve spent a lot of time around people who are non-native English speakers and who don’t speak English well, and even in terms of friendships, it is pretty much impossible to really be friends with people who can’t really speak to you well or understand what you have to say. I fail to see how that doesn’t matter in a long-term romantic relationships. A person doesn’t have to be brilliant to be a good communicator and a brilliant person who can’t speak to you in some common language isn’t going to be very interesting for very long.

And no amount of brilliance in a lab or on a test can make up for any of that.
Observer 178

I am not trying to be insulting or demeaning to anyone here, but why was all of the above energy, time, resources, etc. invested in this blog?

I will speculate that the conclusion of this free will exercise was that perhaps “you” cannot gauge how “attractive you are” with any consistent criteria.
Helen 179

Nicole: tell me where I insulted Goldie. Obviously that was not my intent, as I’m sure she herself knows.
Soul 180

@ Helen:

I agree with what you are saying and I honestly think you should let go of the conversation. In fact, your argumentation is nuanced and I clearly understand it. Yet, for some reason, Karl and Goldie seem not to get those nuances (I wonder what their mother tongue is….ahahahah)
Goldie 181

@ Helen: hmm, it’s hard to convey the tone of voice over a forum comment, and because of that, you may have misunderstood me. From what you’ve written about yourself, I think you have a great family. I also think there’s a good deal of intellectual stimulation going on between all of you. This is why any time you say that the marriage is “only a small part about stimulating conversations, and a much larger part about the mundane and practical realities of everyday life”, it puzzles me, because I don’t even see it happening in your own family, from what you’ve said about it. Not to sound harsh (c), but this is one piece of advice I wouldn’t give to any married couple. Granted, if they aren’t into “stimulating conversations”, they don’t have to have them. But, if they are, they don’t need to change themselves into something they’re not and abandon all things intellectual in favor of everyday practical stuff.

BTW my children are 16 and 19, in HS and college. I remember you mentioning school and after-school activities, so assumed that yours are in middle school or so.

The rest of my post doesn’t apply to your family, which, as you correctly stated, I don’t know much about. It does however apply to your statement that I quoted, in case people decide to follow it, in which case I’d ask them to reconsider. In addition to everything I said above, here’s why. Reason number one. Unless you live on a farm, build your own house, grow your own food, keep cattle etc., household work is not rocket science. It is not hard. It gets even easier when kids grow up and start helping out with it. Therefore, it is not worth dedicating your whole marriage to, unless you like it that way, in which case, go for it. If you like doing something else together as a couple, then organize your housework so you can get it out of the way as fast as possible, and go do those things. If there’s nothing you like doing together as a couple, go get couples therapy ASAP.

Reason number two. Right now in my family, there are two people that I have intellectually challenging conversations with (parts of which fly over my head) on a daily basis. These two people are my children. To a married couple with young, or preteen, kids, it may seem like a good idea to stop taking care of themselves intellectually in favor of the kids’ activities and upkeep. Don’t. Carve out some time for things you liked doing for your own personal growth before the kids came along. The payback will be immense when these kids are teen-aged, or college-aged, and still come to you for advice and conversation. (Believe me, you will NEED to give that advice, and make sure it doesn’t fall on deaf ears! You will also probably want to know what your kids think, and what they’re up to.)

@ Nicole #177, thanks, this is exactly the message I’m trying to get across. I’ve had a family since ’91, as did most of my friends, so by now I can tell what does and doesn’t work at various stages of a marriage. Right now, most of my friends’ kids have left, or are leaving, home, so I am able to observe them at that stage as well.

As far as language difference, yeah this is tough. I have an accent and it didn’t go over well with quite a few guys. Either they couldn’t see an LTR with me, or they saw me as an exotic experience they wanted to have so they could tell their grandkids they’d dated a foreign chick. Being from a different culture is a liability as much as it is an asset, but that’s all right, I make up for it in other ways

@ #178 – the thread probably went OT because looks alone can only get you so far on the dating market it’s like an impressive resume on a job market — it will get you an initial interview, but you won’t get a job or keep it, let alone have a career, if you have nothing to show except that one resume.
m 182

Paragon @ 141 –

Black women deviate quite remarkably from all other human female clinal variants on earth

o.O

I have no idea what ‘clinal’ is.
Paragon 183

@ m

“Paragon @ 141 –

Black women deviate quite remarkably from all other human female clinal variants on earth

o.O

I have no idea what ‘clinal’ is.”

I substituted for ‘racial’(as ‘clinal’ is more biologically accurate).
Amy 184

I’m a very good looking, thin but busty, 44 yr old. I’m divorced with three kids, two of them grown. I’m a college grad and I make $98k a yr. Lest you think I’m overestimating myself, every day on OKCupid I get a few of those “someone rated you 4 or 5 stars” notifications.

All I expect is the male version of me to be interested. I’ll overlook a lack of a degree if the guy at least knows the difference between your and you’re, makes at least half of what I make, works hard and has health insurance. Although I pretty much starve myself and run even though I hate it, I’ll overlook 20 extra lbs. And even though I cover my gray every 3 weeks, I have no problem with a bald guy, as long as he doesn’t have a horseshoe, comb over or a pelt. Would a little fashion sense be too much to ask? One thing I won’t budge on is smoking. I’m a nurse. Plus it’s gross. And decent teeth, please? And guys who put racial preferences on their profiles? No, thanks. Ditto for ones who look for qualities/standards that they can’t live up to. I set all of my preferences at either my level or below, never above. Therefore, I think I’m realistic.

So to say the men who are receptive are at your level sometimes isn’t true. I think I deserve better than obese men in their upper 50′s who have marginal jobs, illiterate profiles, and an ugly face. Yet these are the men who email me the most, even though it says in my profile they meet none of my categories. Funny, if I don’t meet even one category in a man’s profile, I have enough sense and respect not to respond.

I’ve emailed men who were a step below me in looks and in all categories and they still aren’t interested because they don’t respond.

I honestly would rather be alone than be with someone whose appearance, personality amd accomplishments make me nauseated.
Krista 185

I want to marry Karl!
m 186

I’d be quite interested to hear what any of the men here have to say in response to Amy’s last comment @184.

It never ceases to fascinate me the circumstances in which men, after a plethora of pontification, suddenly go silent.
Still-Looking 187

M@186 –
Amy stated, “I’ve emailed men who were a step below me in looks and in all categories and they still aren’t interested because they don’t respond.” Thin, busty, attractive, college educated, and employed — this all sounds good on paper but something in Amy’s profile and/or emails must be turning men off. I can only speculate what the red flags are but they must be present or the men would be responding.

Amy is also weeding out potentials — “Funny, if I don’t meet even one category in a man’s profile, I have enough sense and respect not to respond.” I might say I have a preference for green eyes and Amy doesn’t respond because she has blue eyes? Does the fact that a woman has different color eyes than my preference mean that we are not compatible and there would be no chemistry?

If Amy were to post some of her emails and her profile name I’m sure that there would be plenty of comments as to what is causing her problems. Unfortunately we can only speculate.
AllenB 188

@m186. Not sure what you are looking for here. Amy only had a couple of rhetorical questions. She expressed annoyance that she is something of a “catch” with a pretty broad range of what she is looking for in a guy and yet none of the guys who make the cut for her give her the time of day, and men she is not interested in contact her.

So all I can offer is that I am 45, make about 50% more than she does, am in very good shape for my age (and better than the average american 25 y.o., but that is a low bar) and nice teeth. I am certainly getting thin on top, but I am not by any stretch bald. A little gray around the temples. I don’t believe in coloring my own hair, and find gray on women somewhat sexy. And the confidence that goes with not coloring it is very sexy!. I don’t believe I am handsome, but I am not ugly either. Probably a five or six in the looks department, maybe a 7-8 if you count my physique and you are like long, lean and reasonably cut and can tolerate skinny lower legs (and maybe a 3 or 4 if you like beefy guys or skinny legs are a turn off!)

If I was still dating and had a profile posted and she wrote me, I would respond out of courtesy whether her message/profile/attitude put me off or not. Even in the former case I would give her a “no thank you” and maybe even explain how she might want to change her approach. I am conscious of deal breakers other people write into their profiles and never respond if I fit one of them.

OK m, I responded to Amy’s post as best I could given there was not exactly anything to respond to.