How Can You Attract and Keep the Right Guy?

Evan Marc Katz

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You were delighted when I told you how to tell if a man was falling in love with you.

You were thrilled when I told you when to dump a non-committal guy.

I think you’re going to be challenged by what I’m about to tell you in my next video.

We’ve long ago established that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

That describes most of us when it comes to dating and relationships.

You’re wired a certain way. You’re attracted to a certain kind of personality type.

Over and over, you plug away, trying to make things work, even though it should be readily apparent by now: there’s not necessarily something wrong with YOU, nor is every man in your life fatally flawed. The problem is how you two work as a couple.

Two great ingredients don’t necessarily taste good together.

Lobster and cinnamon come to mind.

So what we’re here to do is try to reduce this to a simple science, finding a man who’s not just a great guy, but finding a man who’s a great fit for your life.

That may sound a little cold and cerebral to you, but I hate to tell you, following your heart has caused pretty much all of your relationship troubles. If love is blind, it’s my job to take the blinders off and let you know how to make slight adjustments that will lead you to greater happiness.

And let me be the first to tell you, greater happiness doesn’t rest in choosing a guy who’s just like you. My mantra to women is to look for a complement, not a clone.

This may not come naturally to you, especially if you’re a smart, strong, successful woman who thinks that you “deserve” a man who is smarter, stronger, and more successful than you are.

Essentially, you’re trying to date yourself, with a penis.

That kind of thinking is a huge blind spot for many women.

(Just imagine if men said the same thing: “I need a woman who is smarter, stronger, and more successful than I am.” No one would ever be able to settle down because everyone would be trying to trade up!)

This creates a conundrum for women who consider themselves in the 90th percentile of everything. In other words, the number of men who are taller, smarter, richer, is going to be a small fraction of the population. (Consider: 15% of men are 6 feet tall. 10% have masters degrees. 2% make over 200K, etc.)

Furthermore, these prime specimens of man meat are NOT necessarily looking to date female versions of themselves.

You may want these alpha male studs, but these alpha male studs often prefer women who are less busy, more available, less critical, and lower maintenance.

Therein lies the friction.

What happens when you catch one of these Bill Clinton/Tiger Woods type men?

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241 Comments »Filed Under Understanding Men

241 Responses to “How Can You Attract and Keep the Right Guy?”

1. Mona 1

   LOVED this video the most out of what you have posted lately. It really resonated with me. Thank you thank you thank you for your informative blog! 

   Got divorced, dated too soon, wasn’t looking for serious but a realllllyyyy nice man took the courage to date me, a newly divorced woman. Right now, we are a week out of our “break up/taking a break”. Last Tuesday, but Sunday we exchanged belongings.

   This video really resonated with me even though I am NOT ready to date again. I am FINALLY going to do the “right” thing and be alone and figure out my own head first. I feel like I hurt a good man by trying to make a relationship work that was not the right “fit”.

   My brother, told me this: “Remember, there is no Mr. Right, there is Mr. Right Enough.” Is this true? I mean, I understand we are all our own recipe (referring to Evan’s food mention above)…and I know some recipes don’t go with each other, but there has GOT to be one that fits better?

   I dunno, I am confused. I am trying to figure out why it’s so hard for me to be “mean” and say “this isn’t working for me”. It’s a problem in many areas of my life: I am a pleaser, and don’t know “me”. 

   So, when I DO find the right guy, or what I hope to be, I follow Evan’s advice. I think I was “trying” that with this boyfriend (I hesitate to call him a rebound relationship because it sounds bad, but in essence, he was…) and I ended up with a very nice (but not exciting) man. He’s got a lot of amazing qualities that I will not forget about, but I think there were enough bad “ingredients” in the mix that I did not know I could deal with for a lifetime. Believe me, I am working through all the blog posts in this website so I can try to understand myself, and men, and dating even better.

   Whew! thanks for letting me ramble…I rarely post but something about this video spoke to me. Thank you for all your great advice, Evan!  

2. Gigi 2

   I agree with the “easy” part, or at least it should be.  However, I had the “easy flow” in one relationship that ended up as a marriage, and it was easy because the man was a fraud!  He was a chameleon who went along with everything to get the goal (me) and then he did a complete flip flop afterwards (abusive, etc.etc.)  He had a history of it (online) in another city, in fact.  I was #3 wife, not #2…So it was “easy’ for him to get involved, and then, unfortunately, get divorced.  The judge was pretty disgusted with him and his antics.
   SO, the big factor for me is TRUST and how do you find that?  Easy is not always the right ingredient.  Sometimes, difficult gives the opportunity for a couple to be REAL with each other and work some things out.

3. AQ 3

   This is very good! I think I do clash with an alpha. But I also have a history of dating down. Please give more guidelines! Successful but not alpha artistic playful???

4. Kate 4

   Thank you Evan. What about the argument that you can be a ‘man’ at work and transition into a feminine mode out of work so that you get to be the cherished one at home and provide all the sensual energy and so on but still get to be professionally excellent in the work place? This is the Dr Pat Allen argument and she does argue for some adjustment on the part of the woman who wants the alpha male. Unless, of course, the alpha woman wants to play the ‘masculine’ role throughout the relationship.

5. Lily2 5

   You make perfect sense here Evan. i struggle with wanting a man more like me, but i am the keep the stay home,creative nurturing type, not a “strong,smart, successful woman” i AM looking for a guy more like me these days. i’m done with the alpha males because i feel un-nurtured, insecure and angry with that type, even though i’ve always gone for them. They like me too because they think i’m a compliment to their way of being, and then it ends up crashing and burning because  i want a man who is self reflective and generous with his love and care….someone more like me! What do you make of that?

6. Lea 6

   What if guys see me as an alpha woman (they often say I’m “intimidating” to my face, on a date, or remark, “this is the kind of house I hope to have someday!” while standing in my living room) – smart, successful, driven, owns her own home -but I’m not really the alpha woman. I’m nurturing, thoughtful, feminine, like to cook for a guy, be affectionate, playful and sexy. It’s not til after the 3rd date that guys start to see this about me–my sensitive side because I let my guard down more then. The first two dates I’m usually in “entertainment” mode, making them laugh, talking about what I love in life–movies, my house, my dog, my job, my friends–and apparently that translates to “alpha woman.” So I’m a feminine creature looking for an alpha guy, but the alpha guys see me as intense and intimidating. When I meet a more submissive guy, who’s less masculine, less outgoing, less ambitious, frankly, I’m not impressed, not attracted. I am looking for my opposite, my complement. 

7. Laura 7

   This is sound advice smart, strong, well-educated ambitious, successful women should heed!

   My 37 year old niece is 1 year post serious commitment with a man who wants to marry her.  He treats her better than any man has ever treated her before.   He loves her, he adores her, he respects her.   He quit drinking and made new sober friends because the alcohol was a problem for her.   He cooks, washes dishes, and has a docile disposition. He has a big, generous heart.  He  has a great sense of humor!   He puts up with her moodiness and PMS.  He is adorable.  He is a laborer, and compared to us, he is dumb!  

   Smart successful men marry dumb women all the time.   

   Why should smart successful women who can take care of themselves, receive their intellectual stimulation elsewhere,  reject wonderful, loving men solely because their IQ and earning power isn’t as high as ours? 

   If you’re a dumb woman, the world is your oyster.  
    
   When you’re a woman with an IQ of 147 or better with your own successes, go for a man with integrity, personality, stability and creativity!

8. Gina 8

   Hi Evan! As usual, I loved you post! I have NEVER been attracted to the alpha male type. Yuck! I’ve been married twice: the first time I married based upon the high level of intensity that I felt for the person (we know how that worked out. Ha! Ha!). The second time I married someone whom I did not feel a high level of chemistry or attraction for.  That lasted 12 years and ended because we grew apart. He was/is a nice person, but was a poor money manager  became emotionally unavailable, and did not want to share in the things that were interesting to me (traveling abroad). I was also selfish in that I do not like sports (only went to one Lakers game with him). 

   After those marriages ended, I found myself attracted to men who gave me the love attention, and affection that I did not receive from my ex. What I consistently heard from those men—whom I dated for about a year and asked where the relationship is going was: “You are a wonderful woman, BUT….” They then state that they feel that I would make a great wife, I’m funny, fun to be with, sweet, (all the things that you say a woman should be to attract a man who is interested in a long term future with a  woman Evan), but they don’t feel strongly enough to see a future with me.  Ouch, that hurt! The kicker is that most of them went on to pursue and fall deeply for women who had serious issues/baggage, or who treated them like crap. Go figure??!?!

   My friends all say that’s because I haven’t met the right one yet…

   Thank you Evan for telling me what I need to do (from a man’s perspective) to meet the right one.   

9. Kate 9

   I am a divorced woman in my 30′s who managed to find an attractive, 6 ft tall man with a masters degree who is both highly successful/alpha and self-reflective. They do exist, and you don’t have to be perfect to attract and keep them (I’m certainly not).

10. SSW 10

    Evan,

    I love your sites, have been reading all posts, purchased your ebooks, and I think you are making comments commercially correct.

    As you are very smart, I would love for you to move to the next step. 

    I belong to what you describe as “smart successful women” who have not found a good love; yes, your target market.

    We do not look for tall, dark, handsome, rich, and successful men.  We are not looking for somebody who is better than us.  That is not our main issue.

    We do not push and bring our “work” attitude to relationship.  That is not our main issue, either. 

    Many of us grew up in challenging childhood and made us be very driven and a hard worker.  Many of us are adult children facing dependency issues, etc..

    I am not asking you to be another John G.  I like your “fun” and “playful” way to position relationship issues.  At the same time, I would love to see your POVs expanding to a bit deeper issues we face.

    Thank you 

11. Stacy 11

    Evan,

    what you’re arguing seems logical, if we assume that a “strong, successful woman” wants to “be a man” in a relationship. I consider myself such a woman, and I most certainly do NOT want to be a leader in a relationship or marriage. At work, I want to be respected and rewarded for my performance. I enjoy being able to lead and make decisions. At home, I want to be pampered, have my feelings cherished, have my man to lead and make decisions. This self awaraness comes from experience of dating various types of men. While “alphas” have those shortcomings that you listed, dating someone who’s “my complement” is even more draining as they look at me as their “mommy” and I just refuse to do that. If i wanted a kid, i would have a real kid, not a man-child.

    Obviously, for some women this type of a relationship where they play a man’s role would work, just not for all. Being successful in a workplace doesn’t mean that all of those women look to wear pants in their marriage.

12. Evan Marc Katz 12

    @Stacy – You hit the nail on the head. Smart, strong, successful women DON’T want to be the “man”, yet are so “smart, strong, and successful” that most confident men decide that they’d rather have an easier relationship.

    The blind spot that you articulated, is that you want the alpha male, but the alpha male generally doesn’t want you. Too much friction. I’m not blaming you for being attracted to him (hell, everyone else is) but trying to force an alpha/alpha pairing is part of what’s led you to be single. At least, it’s what led me to be single for 35 years until I found the perfect complement. I’d encourage you to do the same.

    You say that a beta male is like a “kid”. That’s funny. I don’t think of my wife as my child, even though I financially support her.

    I think of her as my best friend, who makes me laugh, who understands me, who supports me, who PUTS up with me, who is building a life with me.

    Your attitude towards men who aren’t as ambitious explains why you’ll have a hard time with both alphas and betas – even though one is clearly a better fit for you than the other.

13. Jakob 13

    Very good article as always!

14. Stacy 14

    Evan,

    Some alpha males actually like having relationship with their equals. They take comfort in knowing that the woman is not after their money and they would have the safety net of another income, they like having a sounding board, and enjoy being intellectually stimulated. These men do exist I don’t know how rare they are, but I seem to be able to find them on a regular basis, so I’d say they’re not endangered species.

    I would also like to challenge your premise that alpha males run away from women that they see as “difficult”. In my experience, an average MAW (model-actress-whatever) is just as difficult and high maintenance, if not more, than an average female MBA or JD :) So when men choose those women, its definitely not for their nice character. There’s a difference between being “difficult” and being a ball-buster. Men LOVE difficult women and they HATE ballbusters.

    Also, when you’re asking women to change the kind of men they’re looking for as opposed to changing themselves… guess what, changing the kind of men you want IS changing yourself, i don’t see it any other way quite honestly.

15. Goldie 15

    @ #11, I find that I am on neither side. I grew up with a pair of strict parents who always knew what was best for me (luckily, I left for college and then relocated for work before we could all strangle each other). Then I spent almost 20 years in a dysfunctional marriage. Towards the end, I was pretty much running the household and making all of the decisions, while simultaneously trying to convince my ex that he was the one in charge. Very weird. What I learned from all that is, in a relationship between two adults, I don’t want to be in total control of the other person (I already have a dog, thanks), but neither do I want anyone to be in total control of me. Anytime a guy tries to treat me like a child and tell me what I *really* want, I feel my hackles rising! Instead, I am looking for an egalitarian relationship where we make most of our decisions together. Many of my friends have that kind of relationship with their spouses, so I believe it’s possible. Then again, I have never claimed to be an alpha, and am not looking for an alpha, so maybe the post doesn’t apply to people like myself…
     
    @Evan #12: there are betas and then there are omegas. Stacy’s description of her “complement” sounds more like an omega, which I’m sure does not apply to your wife. These guys do exist; I’ve dated them; I have very little tolerance for them.

16. Evan Marc Katz 16

    You’re my perfect foil, Stacy, because you’re making all the false arguments that thousands of other women have made in defense of their attempts to hold out for only the most desirable men.

    To wit:

    1. Your assumption that my wife isn’t my equal is false. We bring different strengths to the table, but we’re certainly equal. In fact, she’s superior to me in many ways: she’s more generous, she’s more patient, she’s got a better eye for detail, she gets along with everyone, she’s amazing at making people feel good, she’s more organized, etc. If you think that “equal” means: I went to Harvard, he went to Yale. I make $300K, he should make $350K, you’re still focusing on superficial similarities instead of true personality compatibility.

    2. Just because a man doesn’t make more than you doesn’t mean he’s poor. Just because a man doesn’t desire a C-level career doesn’t mean he’s stupid. These are false equivalents that women like you draw to make their case, except it’s not a real case. I’m constantly relying on my wife as a sounding board, and just because she doesn’t want to own her own business doesn’t mean she’s devoid of understanding the needs of my clients.

    3. You’re right in that plenty of alpha males are attracted to alpha females. I was one of them. The relationships never worked. We were too similar – too arrogant, too busy, too bossy – to make up for our considerable attraction and similarities. And I’ll bet that if you look at your life, you’ll see a lot of evidence of this being the case as well.

    4. Who the hell said that the alternative to a high-powered attorney clocking 2200 billable hours a year was a model? Huh? My wife is an international event planner who has been traveling the world for 17 years putting together five star vacations for corporations. She’s competent, she’s cultured, she’s bright – and she never had any desire to own the company because she prefers better work/life balance. Find a guy – like my sister did – who is well-read, kind, hard working and makes over $75K, and you can continue to be the JD/MBA/Queen of the World. He can carry his weight just fine.

    5. I chose a different type of woman because my first 300 dates taught me that looking for the female version of myself (perhaps you, Stacy?) was a failed strategy. I’m very happily married now. And I promise that if you want to find a cute, bright, successful man who’s greatest quality is his ability to put up with you, you can be, too. If you hold out for the Wall St. bad boy with the expense account, the travel and the private jet, you will have a rough go of things.

    6. Men don’t LOVE difficult women. We PUT UP with difficult women because of other desirable traits they have. In my experience, this is often a mistake. Really, it doesn’t matter how smart or hot she is; most GOOD men prefer less drama at home. The guys who tolerate the bitchy model are not really men that I’d want to emulate, nor would you want to date them, so they don’t count for much.

    If you look at all my points which dissect your last post, you’ll notice a pattern: all or nothing thinking. Your belief that a man is either chief of cardiac surgery at Sloan Kettering or a busker playing for quarters in the subway is going to cause you a lot of pain. MOST men are in between. Find one of them and you have a chance at being happy.

    With love and respect,

    Evan

17. Shelley 17

    Dearest Evan,

    You are amazingly refreshing. I love what you have to say, about male female interactions. Your analogy of describing me and half the women who read your blog as “dragon slayers” is a trip! I often feel that is what I do on a daily basis as a single mom of three and CEO of a Non-profit. 

    The only comment that I have for you that is hugely missed here (and maybe I am speaking for myself)  that is not taken into account in all of your amazing love advice is that most of us hard working single women are accustomed to a way of life that although like in my case not the most glamorous (I would love to see a single mom describe herself as the queen of glamour) it is comfortable and secure. 

    As women, you know we want to feel secure. I don’t need my man to make 100K (heck I don’t even make that) yet I want my man to be comfortable taking care of himself so that if we join lives we become a team and I don’t become the financial “sugar momma”. 

    Many B-Type males tend to be intimidated at women that can care for themselves, and many men that I have come in contact with that fall under that category of complimentary wonder if they can live up to my lifestyle.

    It would be interesting to see how you’d recommend addressing such touchy subjects of feeling that your man can take care of you when he doesn’t see life and work as the priority you do and how you can find that happy medium and confidence level women like me need to make the jump to the type B compliment type. 

    Thanks for all you do for us! You rock!

    Hugs to you and your family.

    Shelley 

18. Michele 18

    Hi
    I enjoy your video posts & am a recent follower .

    I think it’s very confusing, to some degree, to figure out “who you are” & “who you’re suppose to be”. Sounds crazy, doesn’t it.

    I’m divorced almost 3 glorious years & spent 12 years with my ex-husband. We both have very alpha personalities. I have always had a good career & made a compatible salary. As much as he liked the fact that I made a good salary he was intimidated that I was a strong woman (something I recognize now as HIS problem not mine). Yes, it is my problem in that fact that I did choose to stay with him. I have to say though that someone else’s insecurities don’t have to be my problem.Although outside my work environment I am naturally very nurturing, caring & a bit of a mush LOL, he never made me feel it was OK to express myself. As a result I spent most of my relationship with him not nurturing me.

    I think just as we, as women, have to find someone who complements & balances ourselves, men need to be secure in who they are also. Finding an alpha man is easy, it’s finding someone who’s truly secure with themselves that’s hard. Someone who lets you lead the dance too.

    I’ve worked with very successful women who are married to laborers, etc, & they have great relationships. Their husbands help with the kids when they travel, come meet them for lunch, etc. When I was younger I used to think what in the world are these women thinking being with someone who isn’t equal to them. I have since changed my opinion… being older & much wiser I realize that it’s not about the things you own it’s about who you are. I think it says alot about a man’s character that he can be so secure with himself & his relationship to say.. it’s OK that my wife makes more money & I contribute in other ways. It’s all about changing society’s perpsective of what’s acceptable. Fifty years ago no one would ever question why a woman was home while her husband was at work. The world has changed quite a bit & it’s about time that we change our views on relationships also. Women are empowered to do anything from being a stay at home mom to building empires what does it matter what the man standing next to you does for a living. It doesn’t change who we are & what we feel are our priorities.

    My dad always uses the analogy that relationships are like walking & carrying a ball. He says sometimes you carry the ball, sometimes he carries the ball & sometimes you both carry it. In the end it’s finding someone who’ll accept you & love you for who you are (good & bad).

19. Stacy 19

    Oh Evan,  I see what you mean by saying that you’re difficult (kidding.. kinda)  
     
    1. I never said that your wife wasn’t your equal. I don’t know either of you personally

    2. I have never made such statements either… poor can be viewed in absolute or relative terms though. NY and LA are weired places that way. People who would be considered quite accomplished anywhere else in the country feel “poor” here. Hence while I understand that a person is not poor by the US Dept. of Labor measures, he/she definitely looks “poor” relative to the successful finance/entertainment crowd

    3. Ok, here is where I really have a bone to pick with you. You draw upon your personal experience of failed power couples relationship to advise women to not seek such relationships. However, those relationships that you had could have worked, had the women stepped back a little and let YOU be the leader you wanted to be. You couldn’t control it as it was up to those women, but since you’re giving advice to this very same women now, wouldn’t it be more logical to advise them to soften up a little? Act more feminine with their men? Learn to step back?

    4. Good for you!

    5. Again, good for you. I just don’t understand why you seem to think that a successful man and a man who’s able to “put up with me” are mutually exclusive. They’re not. Trust me.

    6. Here’ I beg to differ. Men love-love-love drama. May be we have a special neurotic breed here in NYC. Drama is what keeps ‘em going, what keeps them on their toes and makes them want the woman even more. Again, YMMV – just my experience.

    7. All or nothing thinking – guilty as charged. I do have it, and I’ll tell you what lies in between  – boredom. Men that inspire no passion. Men wrapped up in their little lives not daring to stick their head out. Men who have never taken risk. Men who don’t know how to take charge. Being with one of them will not make me happy.

    P.S. I think you should add firefighters, police detectives and military guys to your list of “alpha-occupations”. Erin Callan, once one of the most influential women in finance, is married to a fire fighter for example (and her first marriage was to a banker, go figure)

20. Abigail 20

    Evan, you are a successful relationship expert giving advice to and empathizing with women.  What makes you think you are an alpha male? 

21. Evan Marc Katz 21

    @Abigail – I know I already made this about me, which was not my intention. I merely wanted to illustrate that to get different results, you have to make different choices. I did and now I’m evangelical about such choices.

    Am I a pure alpha male? No. But that’s more a matter of choice and many years of self-help/coaching/training that allow me not to indulge my worst tendencies. But do I possess most of the qualities that my clients seek in men? Yep. Smart, strong, successful, ambitious, driven, opinionated, interesting, arrogant, difficult, impatient, busy, petulant, narcissistic, flirtatious, charming, insatiable, blahblahblah. All the good, all the bad, all wrapped up in one. Probably just a better communicator and more empathetic/understanding of women than most typical alphas.

    However, since I want to be a great husband/father, I don’t work nights, I don’t work weekends and I don’t take clients on Fridays. And I apologize, all the time, for being the way I am. My wife accepts me and we get along famously.

    Previous alpha girlfriends either told me to change or dumped me. You can see why I prefer my later choices.

22. Rita 22

    Evan, you said:
    “Men are looking for someone who makes his life better, simply by being optimistic, silly, sexy, and fun. It’s a completely different energy from your ability to slay dragons in the workplace.”
    I think what many women forget about when they are dating/seeking relationships is the “optimistic, silly, sexy, and fun”….I am a Type A personality, on the color test, my color is Red all the way with a bit of yellow in it…the man I found is laid back, easy going…doesn’t like conflicts…while I’m a go-getter, retired military, psych major at age 48, he enjoys the job he’s had for the past 20 years…he enjoys the traveling that is involved…we are both independent, so that works for us…
    Here’s the most important thing though…in school, I have a 3.9 GPA, with him (when I DO get to see him) I can’t HELP but be fun, flirty and silly…I think that makes me sexy to him and him being fun, flirty and silly makes him sexy to ME…I’ve always believed that as long as you’re having FUN in a relationship about 80% of the time, it’s great…when the fun factor goes down below 50% it’s time to let it go and move on..with my b/f, I have had fun about 90% of the time for the past 2 years…
     

23. Former Intern =)) 23

    Hi Evan!

    As usual, your advice is totally on the money!  In my first marriage, I was married to the penultimate alpha male, and it was pure hell!  During our marriage, he started his own multi-million dollar company, but it always came before me and our kids.  He was emotionally abusive and had to be in control of everything.  The best decision I ever made was to ask him to leave and then file for divorce.

    As your former intern, I had the opportunity to read incoming emails and all your upcoming blog posts.  It really helped me think about what I was doing with my dating life, and I decided to change the type of man I was looking to date.  Previously, because I have an Ivy League degree and a Master’s degree, a four year college education was a mandatory requirement for anyone I dated.  After reading your sage advice, I deleted that requirement, and lo and behold, found my now husband!

    And just because he went to trade school rather than college, it is NOT a reflection of his intelligence; unfortunately, it is a reflection of finances at the time.  He is extremely bright–in fact, much more knowledgeable on current events than I can ever hope to be!  He is nurturing, funny, and not afraid to show his sensitive side.  And every day, he lets me know how much he loves me.  

    I am extremely blessed to have been married to him for 10 months now and have two wonderful “bonus” children as a result.  My two sons love him and seek his advice frequently. 

    Thank you, Evan!!  Without your wonderful advice, I may very well have missed out on my perfect match!!! 

24. yulia 24

    Evan,

    I would agree with you that alpha-males tend to like less ambitious women, but lately I tend to run into alphas (men) who divoreced omegas because of omage’s lack of ambitions/lazyness/inability to share alpha’s passions. They complained that their wifees prepared them 5-course meals (you’d think it is a an every man’s dream, right?) however did not have any aspirations, dreams…..also why would success and being driven would equalize in being difficult and drama in your opinion? I am a rational and successfull and opininated woman. But least drama possible. All drama i observe in relationships is coming from full time housewifes and women who DONT KNOW WHAT THEY WANT – actresses, waitresses, interior designers…etc. Because they can not fulfill their “bitchy” tendencies at work – they do it with their guys within relationships. And i know sooooo many sucessfull guys who dpnt want to be primary decision-makers in their households so their less accomplished spouses rule parade at home. Are these guys alpha males in your opinion? Alpha/omega hybrids? What you propose here is basically EASIEST way – yin and yang compatability.EASY IS GOOD? NO! EASY IS EASY!

25. Michael 25

    I agree with everything you said Evan. The qualities you mention are exactly what men want.

    The discussion of the alpha-male/beta-male distinction is too extreme, ladies. Some lawyers are only 5’8″, some men 6′ tall men dropped out of law school but have an otherwise successful shoe store. Some public interest lawyers do amazingly brilliant work but don’t make a lot of money. There needs to be an acceptance of the territory between B and A, the B+ to A- range. Then, it’s up to you which qualities, in which combination, work. 

    If an Alpha-female is anything like an Alpha-male, maybe she needs exactly those qualities in a partner that an Alpha-male wants. So, why adopt only part of the Alpha-male persona? Study the Alpha-male and perhaps seek not only what he wants in a career, but what he wants in a partner too. Isn’t that what Evan is saying?

26. nathan 26

    Stacy. I’m a man. I don’t love drama at all. Nor do I think being difficult is attractive. And I know I’m not alone in this. It sounds to me like it’s you who loves drama. And finds men who aren’t stirring it up or lapping it up “boring.” Which says more about you than any of us frankly.

    Michele wrote: “being older & much wiser I realize that it’s not about the things you own it’s about who you are. I think it says alot about a man’s character that he can be so secure with himself & his relationship to say.. it’s OK that my wife makes more money & I contribute in other ways.” So true. You’re totally on here.
     
    Also, as an aside, I have always found the alpha/beta distinctions simplistic. Seems to me that most of us fall along a continuum, displaying different sets of behaviors and traits at different times or in different situations. Those who actually manifest the extremes on either end of alpha/beta are probably the most challenging to be partners with.
     

27. Evan Marc Katz 27

    @Michael and @Nathan – Right and Right!

28. Deaf singles 28

    It’s hard to solve the “doing the same thing over and over again” dilemma, because, like you say, we’re attracted to who we’re attracted to. I really like the idea though of bringing some analytic skill to bear on love and not just leaving it in the hands of “blind love”, which has always been the worst kind for me. There must be a balance point between the heart and the mind, no?

29. Margo 29

    Evan, this one is good, like the others. You’re right on the money. I need a man that greets me at the door in nothing but a bathrobe with bare feet. Then he leads me to the couch where he offers and proceeds to rub my feet. To top if all off, there’s a casserole waiting on the stove when he’s done massaging my feet.

30. Margo 30

    Oops, I almost forgot: the party really starts when he unties his bathrobe after dinner. lol.
    @Nathan #26, I also agree that most of us fall along a continuum when it comes to alpha/beta personalities, and that the most difficult to deal with are those at the extremes. For instance, I once briefly dated this alpha male. He was extemely good-looking, but extremely alpha. Worhshipped his job, felt a need to be right as often as possible, and was extremely judgemental-even with his friends.

31. Tami 31

    I’m confused.  I do all of those things that you mentioned when I’m with this alpha male I like, and who claims to always have fun with me and is very attracted to me but he doesn’t pursue me.  We only see each other when we run into each other randomly.  What am I doing wrong?  I get the feeling that it has nothing to do with me.  It’s just bad timing?  Or is that an excuse?  He’s a huge workoholic, busy with his full time job and two side businesses.  He’s told a mutual friend that he doesn’t want a serious relationship with anyone now.  Yet, I can’t help but think that if I wait patiently, he’ll come around.  We’re both 34, living in the “sex capital” of Israel (Tel-Aviv).  I’m not waiting around for him, but I do want to know if I’d be doing the wrong move if I initiate spending time together in the near future.  Thanks!  (And great book!)

32. Evan Marc Katz 32

    He’s told a mutual friend that he doesn’t want a serious relationship with anyone now.

    What part of this is confusing? He’s a BAD relationship bet. Move along.

33. Monique 33

    What a wonderful sequence of comments.
    Would you describe being an Alpha male or female similiar to living out of one’s head rather than living from their heart and being?
     

34. Evan Marc Katz 34

    Hey Monique – good to see you here! I’ve never thought about it like that, but I suppose there’s some truth to it. Being Alpha, if I think about it, is not a very empathetic worldview… it’s more about the pursuit of one’s own goals and achievements… probably a bit more ego-based. This is not to say that there aren’t a tremendous amount of alphas who give to charity, or love their friends, or do nice things for their partners, but alphas can represent a worldview that values achievement over connection – not a great combination when you’re trying to find a long-term partner. Self-aware alphas have to temper this trait if they’re going to be any kind of decent partner – otherwise the triathlon, the business trip, and the pursuit of more impressive partners always wins out…

35. jack 35

    Rare is the person who can corral their impulses and appetites and pursue what is good for them than rather than what “feels” right.
     
    It amazes me how many women experience failure after failure to have a workable relationship, even as they insist that their “type” is right for them.
     
    Once again, statistics tells us the outcome: There are nowhere near as many alpha males as their are women who want one. This is the reason for “he-won’t-commit” complaints.
     
    Sure, the top 15-20% most attractive males are sorting through probably 50-60% of the women. These men will be highly selective. The endless parade of women presenting themselves for consideration makes them even more hesitant.
     
    Too many women seek the ego validation of being selected by a man who has many, many options. I’m sure it is very pleasing to have won out in such a tournament, but the odds are very low that any individual woman will land such a man.
     
    The rest will continue to circle and recycle (or be recycled by, more likely) the ever-dwindling supply of alphas. The good alphas marry. The bad ones are players.
     
     
     

36. jack 36

    “Alpha” is defined by most people as someone who is highly desirable to the opposite sex.
     
    This is why a hard charging corporate CEO female millionaire is not “alpha” in the dating market unless she is highly sexually desirable.
     
    Men and women find different things sexy. An physically unattractive man who is rich and powerful can still be alpha.
     
    A hot, sweet, fun, 21-year old college cheerleader is female alpha. Even if she makes minimum wage. Men are not sexually attracted to status to the degree women are.

37. Saint Stephen 37

    In my opinion Women don’t desire the Beta male because even if they want equality they still prefer a Man who can lead them.
    This decent Beta males are always too predictable for them because they live a pretty predictable life, they go to work everyday and come back at a stipulated time, they always call if there is a reason to stay back late, they always seek the advice/consent/approval of their wife/girlfriend before embarking on anything, they are always emotionally available, always stable, always loving, always forgiving, always playing with the kids, and constantly trying to please their spouse.
    They offer No challenge Since the women can predict the reaction of these Beta males at every giving situation.

    But this Alpha males are  the real traditional Men that the ladies often crave for because they are always doing the leading, they are very spontaneous and always full of surprises,
    the are achievers, accomplished, intolerant of a woman’s notion, they can just on a whim take their woman on a surprise trip (to let’s say like Bueno Aires or Hawaii), they don’t need their woman to make them feel validated, they won’t call or text for three days and just send you a beautiful gift on the fourth day, they are not always emotionally available, they believe Men are superior, they believe is a Man’s World,
    they don’t put up with bullshit or drama, they don’t need a woman’s financial support, they are intellectually self stimulated, they want a woman who will accept them just the way they are, they aren’t ready to conform, and they aren’t trying enough to please any woman.
    This alpha males are the unpredictable type and as such pose to be a difficult challenge that women often spend the rest of their life trying hard to fathom.
    And the fact that this Alpha males are always unobtainable even makes them more desirable to ladies.
    They blow off the the decent beta males and embark on a wild goose chase after the Alpha males.

    Women don’t care how much you tell them their choices of Men are wrong because they will keep following their instincts, whether it yields a desirable result or not. 

    Bottom line- you don’t have to be an Alpha male to have women flocking all around you, all you have to do is put up the alpha male attitudes i mentioned above. 

38. Gina 38

    Sorry Jack, but the definition of alpha according to the Merriam Webster dictionary is “dominant especially in a group of animals.” Dominant means ” very important, powerful, or successful” or “commanding, controlling, or prevailing over all others.” Yes that can be used in a sexual context, but I think most people have a much broader interpretation i.e. overall life status.

39. Gina 39

    I agree 100% with Evan. You can’t keep doing the same thing over and over again. Finding someone to complement you is the best idea.
     
    I don’t think guys are neatly divided into alphas, betas and omegas. I work with thousands of “alpha” men. Leaders who reached the top of their field. Guys who make a lot of money and are dominant. But the thing is there is so much variety to the guys. Some love music & pursue it in their free time. Others are nurturing single parents. There are guys who are super sweet and have very happy marriages. Guys who married women with the same job (alpha women.) The list goes on. There are the cliches too. The cheaters, the guys who keep chasing the same wrong woman, guys who can’t sit still and are constantly using their free time, ect.
     
    The most important thing to remember is to forget about the laundry list and judge the man for who he is, not what his resume lists. I have friends who refuse to date guys shorter than them, don’t have a four year degree, ect. None of that matters really. You have to find someone who makes you feel good being with them.

40. Jadafisk 40

    Doesn’t alpha mean more than the most sexually desirable? It also implies social dominance in homosocial environments. I don’t think the aforementioned cheerleader would be considered “queen bee” in most non-Greek organizations, *especially* if she’s sweet. Men and women decide who’s alpha and respond to each other’s designations.

    Also, isn’t there less of a likelihood that less educated men will have particularly forward ideas about gender roles that facilitate a relationship where the primary earner/primary caregiver roles are switched? When it comes to average folks (lots of discussion about the tail end of the bell curve here, as if 100k didn’t put a person in the extreme minority of people that most people would ever become or know intimately), it seems like the less money a man makes, the more he and his similarly heeled peer group seem to primarily define him as a man by his ability to provide.

    Also, what if you’re not looking for success at all, but definitely an intellectual, age and attractiveness level peer/”clone”? Is this unreasonable? What would be the preferable complements be in these areas?

41. Gem 41

    I’m very calm, listen more than I talk, tend to let others have limelight, am a supporter, and encourager by nature….

    Therefore, I have always been attracted to and seem to find relationships with Alpha types. Not necessarily in career status (the majority of them were middle class to upper middle class), but Alpha in personality style: Type A, strong willed, more rigid about the way things should be done, extroverted, and life of the party.

    I don’t think matching myself with someone like me would work. I like the balance/compliment partner in my life that Evan talks about.

    Somehow I think two of the same personality style would ultimately lack passion. Two drivin Alphas may morph into a power couple but a more business relationship at  home. Two easy going types might eventually bore each other.

    Just my personal but non-data-collected opinion. If I had a dime for everytime a man said to me, “I like being around you because your calming.” I’d have a lot of dimes! And likewise, I like how their opposing qualities draw me out and stimulate me.

42. Goldie 42

    @ Jack #35: I agree with this comment. Moreover, I think that, if you switch the words “men” and “women” around in this comment, it will still be accurate.
     
    I think you’re on to something when you mention the ego validation. Some people do seem to choose merely based on good looks and young age (if it’s men choosing a woman) or status/money/height (if it’s women choosing a man). From my experience, it makes the “chosen” person feel like an object – i.e., not good! Never been an alpha male, but I’m pretty sure that most people, alpha males or not, prefer to be liked for who they are as individuals, not for their position or salary. And, no, you cannot make assumptions about who the person is as an individual based entirely on his position or salary.
     
    #36:
    A hot, sweet, fun, 21-year old college cheerleader is female alpha. Even if she makes minimum wage. Men are not sexually attracted to status to the degree women are.
     
    Now you seem to be saying here that, given a choice, any man would prefer a hot, sweet, fun 21yo college cheerleader over any other woman, is that right? Personally I’d have a very hard time taking seriously a man in his 40s or 50s who would pick a 21yo cheerleader over anyone else. Also, the cheerleader will probably be really creeped out! This is again the case of selecting people for their external parameters, instead of for who they are and how you two match up together. Nothing wrong with hot, sweet and fun, but it has to be an age-appropriate kind of hot, sweet and fun!
     
    @ Michael #35:
     
    Since you’ve mentioned height, I have to share. Recently I ventured into the “men shorter than myself” territory. I find that there are a lot of really incredible guys on the other side of 5’9″!! I’m having a great time. Should’ve tried it long ago

43. Heather 43

    Dear Evan:

    I like what you have to say.  But here’s my take on it.

    I’m a divorced, 35 year old woman and I DO try to be funny, supportive, kind, and caring.

    What I’m getting?  Guys who complain about drama, they see that I am so not a source of drama (ex has disappeared and I have no kids), yet they gravitate towards…..wait for it, wait for it……bingo!  A woman who is mean, cold, doesn’t have time for him, bitchy.  And there I sit.

    So what gives?  Do you guys really just talk about wanting a nice girl just to talk?  Methinks y’all really just want a high maintenance bitch, because all I see where I live, is those types of women getting treated like gold.  Being committed to, when they clearly use and abuse the guy.

    So what’s a nice, funny, calm, supportive girl to do??  I admit I am far from perfect, my goodness.  But still.  Yikes already!!!!

44. Evan Marc Katz 44

    @Heather. You’re making the same assumption as our hypothetical “nice guy” Jason does in my most popular blog post ever:

    http://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/why-dont-men-like-smart-strong-successful-women/

    I will repeat: men PUT up with bitches because they’re smart or sexy or confident. They don’t enjoy the bitchiness.

    You can be smart, sexy, confident AND kind, I promise you.

45. Sayanta 45

    Ok- first of all, I agree that Evan gives good advice, so obviously it makes sense for people in their posts to, well, ask for advice. But sometimes, it seems like women are asking advice about the slightest details (should I date a guy who puts pepper on his omelet? etc). But seriously, we’re all intelligent people who were given good judgment and intuition- it just seems, that, after 18, you should be able to use that instead of asking about EVERY little thing. Sorry to sound cranky, but that’s what I’m feeling.

46. Heather 46

    Oh Evan,

    I sure wish I could believe you. I experimented once, both ways.  I was “Miss Independent, I do not NEED a man thank you!” on a date and it didn’t work. 

    Then I went to my usual personality which my friends will tell you is quiet, happy, kind.  And well, what I’ve had to show for it thus far has been….cheated on, lied to, disrespected.

    I’m really starting to think that I have to be a difficult, mean spirited witch to get any male attention that will stick!  Maybe I’ll mistreat my date tonight, and maybe he’ll stay around, LOL!!!!

47. Stacy 47

    Evan #44

    Perhaps, there’s deeper psychological issues here at play Evan. May be its the lack of challenge, or too much predictability or whatever. In my practical experience, no men has ever dumped me because I was bitchy or difficult. In fact, when I turn my bitch on, I get more attention, more gifts and more pursuit than when I am being sweet and easy going. So Heather is on to something – sweet girls finish last just as nice guys.

48. Evan Marc Katz 48

    Nope. I won’t concede. What nice guys and sweet girls need is the confidence to walk away from a situation where they’re not being treated properly. Voila. Problem solved.

    The truth is: any person you WANT to be with for the rest of your life will VALUE the fact that you’re sweet. I don’t know what kind of moron dates the hot, crazy girl or aloof, busy guy, but those aren’t relationships I’d think anyone wants to emulate.

    Want a good guy? Be a cool woman. It’s not that complex. And all your talk about how you should act bitchy will lead you absolutely nowhere. Promise.

49. RW 49

    @Heather
    I hear you and I see what you’re seeing but might it be that you’re too nice.  Maybe it is worth it to emulate some of the positive characteristics of the aforementioned “bitch”.  She doesn’t attract the men because she’s difficult but she can afford to be difficult because she has many things that attract men.  In my humble opinion, it is the confidence and self assuredness that attracts the guys and 9 times out of 10, it is also accompanied by a patented brand of bitchiness.  Emulate the self confidence and sexiness without the nastiness and you will have struck gold. 

50. Teresa 50

    As long as men are willing to put up with the bitchy high maintenance drama queens there is no hope for the nice women.  Maybe it’s the challenge as someone else mentioned?
    I see these relationships/marriages all the time.  Nice sweet male and his significant other is a bitch on wheels who has him under her thumb and I wonder what the heck!?!?  These women are not generally above average in appearance/intelligence/sexiness  confident yes very.

51. Goldie 51

    @ Stacy #47:
     
    “In fact, when I turn my bitch on, I get more attention, more gifts and more pursuit than when I am being sweet and easy going. So Heather is on to something – sweet girls finish last just as nice guys.”
     
    Nuh-uh, no. That hasn’t been my experience. I’m seeing the opposite – people like me and want to meet again (and again…) because, according to them, I’m nice, easy to deal with, and fun. Then again, I date divorced guys. They have already eaten a full serving of the bitchy and aren’t in a hurry to come back for seconds!
     
    Also, how can a genuinely nice person turn the bitch on and off on command? I mean, how is it physically possible? I know I can’t. I’m not a bitch one day and a nice person the next – I’m me. (probably a little bit of both…)
     
    Evan is right, though, nice girls have to be confident as well. There’s nice, and then there’s a doormat.
     
    @ Heather #43, not sure I understand this: “they see that I am so not a source of drama (ex has disappeared and I have no kids)…” What’s one got to do with the other? In my case, guys see that I am on civil terms with my ex, I haven’t taken him to the cleaners when I left, I have cool, smart, funny, independent kids that I have a great relationship with, and encourage them to have a great relationship with their father as well… where’s the drama in that? Guys appear to think it’s all pretty cool. Pretty sure drama means something different, not just “kids at home and ex still in the picture”.

52. RW 52

    Stacy #47

    I’ve been following your back and forth with Evan, admittedly with much enjoyment
    In theory, I see what you’re saying but I have to say that I agree with Evan.  I can understand that the true betas bore you and I know the exact type of man you’re talking about.  But I don’t believe that the alternative to this is to find a pure alpha who is unavailable. Betas make viable, albeit mind  numbingly boring life companions and alphas make for highly interesting, unstable, short term relationships.  Now we’re talking about men at either end of the spectrum.  Neither is desirable though the latter is much more fun.  And who really wants to think about long term when dangerous fun is available in the short term
    All snide comments notwithstanding, maybe it’s better to set classifications aside and just find a man who is neither alpha nor beta but a jack of all trades, so to speak.  He might not be as driven as a CEO but will likely have a satisfying, successful career that leaves some time in his schedule for you.  I agree that NYC is unique as cities go but you can’t possibly be saying that ALL men you meet fall only in the pure alpha or pure beta category.  And to satisfy my curiosity, have you had a successful, long term relationship with someone who could be considered a pure alpha?

53. RW 53

    @ Goldie
     
    >> Also, how can a genuinely nice person turn the bitch on and off on command? I mean, how is it physically possible? I know I can’t. I’m not a bitch one day and a nice person the next – I’m me. (probably a little bit of both…)

    I think she’s confusing bitchiness with confidence, being unreasonably demanding with appearing to know what she wants, and being all out difficult with asking to be treated with respect. 

    So turning the inner bitch on and off, no.  Tuning in to your sense of self worth and demanding to be treated well while still being your nice self, yes.

54. Stacy 54

    RW #52

    I am glad you’ve been enjoying my comments There’s definitely alpha’s out there who are available, so the right choice is between a beta and an available alpha. Unavailable people are easy to weed out. The vast majority of corporate CEOs, top-managers, wall streeters and the likes after the certain age are married. I don’t know where this image of “unavailable alpha” comes from, i really don’t.

    It’s a popular chliche that has little to do with reality, and honestly, I think that most alpha-females that are struggling in the relationship space need more than just dating advice. They need more serious professional counceling to address the underlying issues that prevent them from forming a relationship. As SSW #10 alluded to, many of us grew up in a challenging environment, some are a product of a broken home, some have struggled in life a lot and while this has made us into who we are, it is also affecting our love life in a negative way. Reflecting on these underlying issues, dropping the emotional baggage we carry and becoming confident in our own (new) skin is what’s needed, not selecting boring guys for a mate. Just my humble opinion.

    Oh yeah, and to satisfy your curiosity – yes, I am enjoying being in one right now and it’s been anything but boring

55. Linda 55

    Thank you so much Evan for your clear no nonsense approach to finding that special someone. I now understand  what my expectations should be and also  how women are often looking for a clone. My late husband was the complete opposite to me both culturally and racially, yet we had a wonderful marriage where we certainly complimented one another. So I look forward to acting on your advice.
    many thanks Linda. 

56. jack 56

    “Alpha” in the context of the sex/marriage marketplace is all about DEMAND.
     
    Wealthy, powerful, but physically unappealing CEO-type women are not alpha in that sense.
     
    If you are not in demand, you are not alpha.

57. Evan Marc Katz 57

    Fallacy #5, Stacy: “Men who aren’t corporate CEOs or Wall Streeters are ‘boring’.

58. Goldie 58

    Maybe we should define boring. Something tells me that my “boring” and Stacy’s “boring”, just like my “fun” and Stacy’s “fun”, are worlds apart. (For example, my definition of a guy that’s fun to be with doesn’t include any mention of gifts. When I saw that word in #47, I confess it gave me pause.) In that case, sounds like she’s doing everything right… for herself.

59. jack 59

    And like real estate, all alphaness is local.
    The guy who is a total alpha Wall Street type – let’s imagine him as wealthy, tall, connected, charming too.
     
    Now place him in a VFW in a small midwestern town. He might be perceived as a “city slicker” something of a dandy. Or put him on a ranch out west and the girls who work there might see him as good looking, but a total pu–y when it comes to macho cowboy activities. But the best cowboy on the ranch would be soundly ignored by the typical wealthy Manhattan socialite – he would be seen as a hick.
     
    To be truly alpha, you must have some dominance within your social circle – it is called social proof. There is no single scale for alphaness that allows us to rank one man or woman at the supreme top.
     
    Even among the most beautiful female movies stars, there is a preference for one look over another. For instance, I salivate for Jennifer Aniston, but think Angelina Jolie is unattractive. BUT – Angelina is female alpha because even though I do not want her, MILLIONS of men DO want her.
     
    If what you are and what you do makes you in demand by the opposite sex, then you have alpha elements. This is why everyone should do things they are good at and stay in environments where they flourish. It increases you apparent value to the opposite sex (unless you don’t care about attracting anyone).
     
     

60. Ruby 60

    I don’t think it’s either: Be Bitchy or Be Sweet. When I read the book, “Why Men Love Bitches”, the author wasn’t really advocating acting mean and angry; she was advocating standing your ground and not being a pushover. Don’t jump through hoops to get the guy, and when something bothers you, don’t throw a tantrum, but stand your ground nicely, but firmly.

61. Helen 61

    We should clear a fallacy here. “Boring” is not the opposite of “dramatic.”  There is every possible variation of “interesting” in between. My colleagues who are the biggest drama queens (both male and female) are actually the most boring, because they’re constantly focused on themselves and not interested in anything else. Likewise, those who aren’t dramatic but are brilliant and interested in other things are the most delightful company.
     
    Money and status also do not make a person interesting, and lack thereof do not make a person boring. Evan, though you didn’t state it outright in your blogpost, I think one of your points was that an alpha female can afford to marry a man with lower income. She should indeed open her mind to such men, because they’ll be the ones who are fine with her working long hours and will look after the kids, make meals, etc.
     
    Stacy, I wonder if some of your reactions and beliefs that dramatic relationships are good ones come out of not having found that calm, humble, sweet guy yet who quietly loves you for who you are, drama and all. I really hope you do find him, and that may be the thing that turns all your ideas about the importance of money and status on their heads. Debating on a blog may not do it, though it may offer different perspectives.

62. Stacy 62

    No Evan, these 2  occupations are not the only “non-boring”. All men who are instrinsically risk-takers are not boring. They could be doctors without borders, wall street traders, military officers, fire fighters or professional explorers. It’s just that i personally don’t run into a hell lot of firefighters in my regular every day life, but I did date a DEA agent once And, I hope that this point is not missed – this only applies to ME. I am sure some women find accountants exciting

63. Sherell 63

    #26 Nathan So true!!!! “ 
    I have always found the alpha/beta distinctions simplistic. Seems to me that most of us fall along a continuum, displaying different sets of behaviors and traits at different times or in different situations. Those who actually manifest the extremes on either end of alpha/beta are probably the most challenging to be partners with.”

    I would add that I have always wanted a complement and that can be challenging as well.  For me it was a complement in a few specific areas.  Not a laundry list!!!   That being said I glad to find him
     

64. Sherell 64

    Heather Men tolerate Bitches because of their confidence and challenge.  Often the choice is between a bitch and a needy woman and the bitch will win ever time!!

     I consider myself a bitch of the east, so to speak like the Wizard of Oz.  I am not mean, but confident, full of feminine traits, sweet,  not needy in the least.  And i let guys come to me.

    Generally when I hear the nice girl  versus bitch argument the aka nice girl is needy, chasing the guy down, always available,  and acts as if the guy is a priority as opposed to an option from day one. She appears an easy win.  Her value decrease because the guy believes that it did take much to win her over.  

65. nathan 65

    Sounds like Stacy is into men who either risk their lives or risk other people’s money – interesting.
     
    The risk/predictable or safe dichotomy is also simplistic in my view. First off, there are many kinds of risk. Some risk is more dramatic than others, but I think it’s entirely possible for someone who regularly takes dramatic risks (like climbing mountains or gambling large sums of money on stocks) to be entirely predictable and/or safe in the rest of their lives. Or, maybe more accurately, they create the conditions for things around them to be a cushion for their risky behaviors. So, you get the wall street guy who pushes millions of dollars around by day, and then is surrounded by people who care-take for him in various forms by night.
     
    And I’d guess that the a fair percentage of these folks are pretty risk-adversive when it comes to emotional vulnerability, commitment, and other key relationship elements. They line themselves up with romantic partners who won’t really challenge them much, or who offer a lot of drama and challenge, but aren’t concerned about long term commitment.
     
    The other thing about those who are high on the dramatic risk taking scale in terms of career is that they tend to live short lives. Or spend their older years in failing health, due to ignoring it all along in order to get ahead. So, maybe you find the high powered CEO or world explorer who never inspires boredom and is even somewhat emotionally open, but the guy (or woman) has heart disease by age 50, stroke and heart attacks before age 60, and perhaps is dead before 65. Maybe that sounds dramatic, but it’s more common than people think.
     
     
     

66. Sharon 66

    Has anyone seen Bridezillas? I’m amazed anyone would be willing tolerate the women on the show. An alpha guy isn’t going to suddenly cave because you’re awful to him but there are men with a masochistic streak putting a ring on it.

    I could wake up tomorrow and choose to be unreasonable and demanding and find some guy willing to lick my shoes. But that sort of one way relationship is boring to me. I don’t want to be submissive to some jerk but to me a healthy relationship should have a subtle tug of war that keeps it dynamic and interesting. 

67. Teresa 67

    Just because one is nice doesn’t necessarily mean they are also desperate and needy.  Do men like women who play hard to get?
    It just seems that bitchiness and confidence seem to go hand and hand a lot of the times in women.

68. Saint Stephen 68

    Sherell Said (#64)
    Generally when I hear the nice girl  versus bitch argument the aka nice girl is needy, chasing the guy down, always available,  and acts as if the guy is a priority as opposed to an option from day one. She appears an easy win.  Her value decrease because the guy believes that it did take much to win her over.
    Sherell- being nice/needy versus bitchy is a relative trait.
    A bitchy girl would turn nice and needy if she falls head over heels with a guy who swept her off her feet.
    And a nice/needy girl could turn bitchy if she is less interested in the guy.  

69. jack 69

    Once again…
     
    Alphas are like really high-paying jobs. There are not enough of them for all the people who want one.
     
    Hold out if you wish.

70. Annie 70

    Alpha’s are the most popular. What-ever makes some-one popular, will make them the alpha.

    @68

    People who change their personality that easily, are problematic at best. If I fall in love, I don’t lose myself and become needy. I am willing to become “interdependant”. If a man likes me, but I’m not interested, I would be of very poor character if I went from nice to bitchy.

    Authentic Nice people, are nice..the vast majority of the time. Otherwise, they are just faking it to get what they want, and hence are not really nice to begin with. 

71. morgan 71

    Side bar – I love the idea of these video posts but they’re almost impossible to watch.  They play for few seconds then load for up to 10 seconds.  Evan can’t even finish a sentence.  I’m on IE8.  Is it my old slow ‘puter? Or one of the other applications?

72. Sharon 72

    @ Annie 

    Lol oh we’re getting philosophical now. There are people that behave nicely because their stinking nice to they’re core. There are people the behave nicely to get over on the rest of us. And then they’re are most of us, We know what’s polite so we swallow that choke that mean stuff down and bury it someplace in our guts. 

    For example 5 old would like to tell every intimate details of the last few seasons of sponge bob. After about 15 minutes I’m probably not at my most nicest self. But endure smile and pretend to be interested. 

     ”Goodness” is probably 40/60 intention/behavior in my book.   

73. Zaq 73

    Jack is correct – he is pretty much spot on most of the time, so ladies I think you should listen up.

    Is there even such a thing as alpha female. Certainly women have adopted the idea that females expressing male alpha characteristics are themselves alpha, but this is a term used by zoologists to describe those animals within a community who are best placed to pass on their genes.

    If you are not repoductively successful YOU ARE NOT ALPHA.

    Also given the sort of response women are giving to this topic, it clearly touches a raw nerve. But no matter how many of us males keep telling you how it is, you dont want to listen.  Alpha males do not want you. Now what is your plan ? Hold on to the fairy story ?
    Let me tell you how the fairy story goes. Princess sees dashing tall young prince and falls in love. Prince ignores her, while trying to bed as many maids as time permits.
    She unloads all her feelngs of pain to the Court Jester. The Jester is always there to listen to her, to comfort her, and goes to great lengths to make her smile. He is intelligent. He enriches her life.
    But he is not heir to a throne. He is not tall and handsome.
    So the princess does not value the Jester.
    If  she is lucky the prince will gather her up on his steed, and they will ride off into the sunset. Actually he has his way with her and dumps her before he gets to the next village.
    She does not live happily ever after.

74. helene 74

    Finding this whole discussion very interesting, but have a question relating to Evan’s original comment “look for your compliment, not your clone”.  I get the part about alpha males preferring lighter, easy-going women, and Evan’s comments that once he stopped searching for a woman like himself, (bossy, opinionated etc..etc…) that things worked much better. So I think, basically, this advice works very well for Alpha males and B females alike.
    The problem I see with alpha/smart-strong-successful/-assertive/-whatever-you- want- to- call- them women seeking men who are NOT LIKE THEM, is that in male-female dynamics, the MAN is supposed to LEAD.He should be driving the relationship forward, decisive, provide security etc..etc… Whilst this works perfectly for alpha males with B females who are softer, less bossy and happy to be flexible and fit in, and in that sense I totally agree that this sort of complimentary pairing is an excellent idea, I’m not sure exactly how its going to work the other way around, with beta males and alpha females. 
    Women ALL want their man to lead, be decisive, provide security…. which is why the smart strong successful women feel the need for a man who is smarter, stronger and MORE sucessful… a doomed quest, given the small numbers of such men available…. But to then decide to look for your compliment which is …what? A man who is less ambitious, has more free time, more easygoing, but less well organised, less assertive…. how does that create appropriate male-female dynamics?? Not criticising, just asking!! I don’t want a man I can boss around…

75. Annie 75

     
    Hi –
    This is my first comment, I’ve just discovered this website and I love it.  I think you’re a very smart guy Evan, and I have to say – some of the stuff you say in the video may seem obvious, but it’s no obvious AT ALL. I consider myself pretty intelligent, and I’m only starting to figure out this stuff now.
     
    I’m surprised at your solution to the problem though – may I suggest an easier one? First, some background -
     
    I went out with the perfect guy two years ago  – I don’t want to gush but he was a DREAM.  GIRLS – He was my dream come true – I was like, call off the search! Princeton, wealthy family, tall, green eyes – gorgeous. Wall street winner, worth way over a million – smart, cultured, athletic  – just a dream come true.  All my friends were jealous, my co-workers were jealous – we would go to restaurants, or even just walk down the street, and women would look over and practically hiss – honestly, I thought I had died and gone to heaven. It was like winning the man lottery, like dating a movie star.
     
    But one night, after getting into another political debate (I call it debate, he called it argument) about health care reform, he broke up with me. He’s the only guy who’s ever broken up with me, and the only guy I’ve ever gone out with that I actually liked – very sad, especially since I’m thirty.  All the guys I’d dated before were beta compared to this guy – I had to ‘get to know them’ and even then they were boring – with this guy it was instant biological attraction.
     
    Now he’s with a less intelligent, less good-looking woman. ( Not being weird – I’ve done some modeling, most people think I’m very good looking) and it was two years ago and I still think about him every single day.
     
    What’s the point of this story? The point is: How important was it to win that health care debate? Or to convince him of any of my political views? He was a conservative guy, not willing to change. Yes, I can say he’s a loser, he likes compliant, dumb women  but in the end, the big fish got off the hook.  I really lost out.
     
    Evan, you suggest that alpha women date beta men. A better suggestion is  – women, stop being so alpha. You don’t need to win every debate – in fact forget the debates. Unless you’re the CEO of a big company (which I ‘m not) Your driven, ‘alpha’ quality might be just a quirk of your personality. That’s something I’m more than willing to soften to get an Alpha guy. I’m also aware of the unfair fact that, as an African-American woman, I’m automatically seen as more confrontational, even when I’m not being that way. So I really have to watch it.
     
    The problem with your solution is – I CAN’T change what I’m attracted to. If you like super strong, tall, handsome, wealthy men – going for a beta type guy is a no go. If I told you to make yourself be attracted to ugly women, would you be able to?
     
    Well, it’s the same for many women. I don’t feel any attraction to guys I can dominate.  A better suggestion would be to tell women to soften up a bit.  It’s no use dating a guy you don’t like or respect.

76. Evan Marc Katz 76

    Briefly, Annie, in my experience as a dating coach, I’ve found that it’s FAR easier to adjust your expectations of your man than it is to change your personality. I’m still attracted to alpha women; I just chose not to marry one because every time I dated one, I found that there was too much conflict. You make it sound like you have to act on your attraction because it’s such an intense high. You don’t. You don’t eat ice cream for dinner. You don’t do cocaine regularly. You don’t make a habit of base jumping for the thrill of it. These are dangerous lifestyles, even though they provide a thrill. So, if you ask me (and most people here are), dial down the thrill from a 10 to a 7 and find a great, compatible man who treats you like gold, and you can have a happy life.

    Oh, by the way, you’ve got a big, honking blind spot: That perfect Princeton guy who broke up with you because of your views on health care? He SUCKS! You DON’T want him back. And you’d have a miserable life, walking on eggshells, afraid of when he’s going to leave you if you ever miraculously won him back. The dream guy SHOWED his stripes. He’s a petulant child who can’t agree to disagree.

    You’re better off. Too bad you can’t even see that at this point.

77. Evan Marc Katz 77

    @Helene:

    You make it sound like it’s static and monolithic, which it’s not. “The man is supposed to LEAD!”

    Who says?

    And does it really mean anything if every time the man drives, the alpha female has one hand on the wheel and is yelling at him that he missed the last exit?

    Just because you WANT something, Helene, doesn’t mean it’s good for you and it doesn’t mean it’s realistic. You’d certainly tell me that if it came to poor, short, illiterate men writing to you online. Hey, they want what they want…but that doesn’t mean they’re entitled to get it.

    What you’re resisting here is the idea that alpha males want to drive without interference, yet if you’re an alpha female, you can’t help but to have your say. It’s part of being smart, strong, and successful. That’s not a judgment; just an observation. Therefore the best bet for you is to EMBRACE the alpha part of you and find a beta who lets you be yourself, instead of perpetually conflicting with the alpha who wants to be in control.

    You are a living, breathing contradiction when you say you want a man to lead, but you won’t really let him lead.

    And, to be clear, for the 400th time, a guy who is a little more laid back and a little less opinionated isn’t necessarily boring or a doormat. He’s actually the perfect fit for the driven, opinionated woman. If men have figured this out for themselves, what’s preventing you from doing the exact same thing as I did – choosing a different partner who’s a better long-term fit?

78. Sharon 78

    @ Annnie
    Ok ya kinda lost me. Why would you want someone that didn’t respect your opinions. That sort of man is looking for a pet. Sure he may love you but never as an equal.

    I’m all for chasing what your into. But a million in the bank that is a steep order.
    I mean I need physical and intellectual chemistry but otherwise as you have a steady job I’m into it. And I’m pretty sure Evan would tell me I was still that’s too fussy. Kudos for the blunt honestly but prepared for the inevitable dissension. 
     
     

79. Annie 79

     ”You don’t do cocaine regularly”
     
    Ha Ha – I don’t do cocaine at all!
     
    “Oh, by the way, you’ve got a big, honking blind spot: That perfect Princeton guy who broke up with you because of your views on health care? He SUCKS! You DON’T want him back. And you’d have a miserable life, walking on eggshells, afraid of when he’s going to leave you if you ever miraculously won him back. The dream guy SHOWED his stripes. He’s a petulant child who can’t agree to disagree.
    You’re better off. Too bad you can’t even see that at this point.”
     
    I do see it, maybe – but honestly, Evan he was (still is)so so so perfect.  I don’t think you can understand. Flowers, little presents, the nicest restaurants, places I could never afford – also a very good person inside, smarter than me, loved dogs.
    Okay, he’s a conservative Republican. BIG DEAL.
     
    Is that really worth losing your DREAM mate over?
     
    I bet you wouldn’t turn down an ‘alpha’ dream girl who had a slight personality flaw – I know 99.9 % of guys don’t. I see guys put up with awful bitches, just because they’re beautiful. You would at least try to make it work – and I’m really sorry I didn’t.
     
    I ‘m sort of surprised at you – haven’t you said woman should compromise? And what about trying to have a more feminine, less male energy? What about being easier to be with? Anyway my alpha guy is gone now. Now I get to be opinionated on endless dates with a bunch of beta dudes I don’t really like.
     
    I’m telling you it’s not worth it.
     
     “Ok ya kinda lost me. Why would you want someone that didn’t respect your opinions. That sort of man is looking for a pet. Sure he may love you but never as an equal.”
     
    Sharon – What about compromise? You can’t have everything in life.
     

80. Evan Marc Katz 80

    His personality flaw isn’t that he’s a Republican. It’s that he DUMPED you because you didn’t agree with him on health care. What a shallow, intolerant, moronic piece of shit.

81. Sherell 81

    @68 Saint Stephen  so not true!  when I speak of needy I am referring to confidence and dignity.  A Bitch in my opinion is a woman that has a certain amount of control and doesn’t fall head over heels for a guy until  he has shown her that he is head over heels for her..  She is confident, not needy and doesn’t engage a  man that doesn’t treat her a certain way.  It’s not an act.  It comes from within: Babe In Total Control of Herself.  It doesn’t mean that she doesn’t care or can not be hurt but it is more about how she conducts herself: with dignity! 

82. Christine 82

    Annie,
    All the qualities you listed of your dream man — Princeton, wealthy family, tall, gorgeous, rich, smart, cultured athletic — are nice bonuses, but none of them reflect his character. Well, I suppose they reflect that he’s hard-working to have achieved his success. But what about kindness? Patience? Integrity? Willingness to compromise? Ability to accept others’ flaws? I agree with Evan — you dodged a bullet! … I feel for you, because I’m attracted to those guys too. I’m working on opening up to other guys. I passed on some good ones in my 30s and I regret it. The “love of my life” was a gorgeous Princeton educated orthopedic surgeon. I wasted 3 years hoping he would make a commitment. Three years in my 30s. Foolish behavior on my part. … You do need to be attracted to the man you’re with, but it can be a gentler attraction. I guess I’m just echoing everything Evan says. I just see younger women do what I did, and it makes me sad. Good luck!

83. Sherell 83

    Anne how can be be your Dream Guy and not want you????????????????

    You need to wake up!!  LOL

    My Dream Guy (BF) Loves me to death!!!!   

84. Goldie 84

    Some (not all) political opinions are a reflection of deeper-seated beliefs and values. So, yeah, I see how it is possible to break up over a political disagreement.
     
    I just got an OKC email from a guy who, according to the answers he gave to their questions, believes that interracial marriage is wrong, homosexuality is wrong, some silly drivel like “women have an obligation to shave their legs” the list goes on and on. Based on the answers he gave, I don’t even want to meet him. There are plenty of cute, dog-loving guys out there whose opinions won’t repulse the crap out of me.
     
    Which is all a long way of saying: Annie, you are better off. You’d be miserable married to that guy. I’m kind of curious what was it you said about health reform that made him break up on the spot. Whatever it was, probably speaks volumes about him as well.
     
    @ Helene #74:
    “Women ALL want their man to lead, be decisive… I don’t want a man I can boss around”
     
    (checks) I’m a woman. I don’t want to be pushed around. I do NOT want a man that will lead me off a cliff without asking whether I want it or not. I want us to work together as a team. Pretty sure I’m not the only woman out there. It’s not all black and white with people – she’s either bitchy or needy; he’s either in total control or a pushover. There are other options in a relationship than to boss the man around or to be bossed around. If those were the only two available options, I’d stay far away from relationships, but luckily, that’s not the case.
     
     

85. helene 85

    Evan – maybe I’m not explaining mysef well… what I’m trying to get at is the issue of masculine and feminine energy. Masculine energy is about decisiveness and leadership, feminine energy is about letting go and allowing yourself to be taken care of, confident that the man you are with is up to the job. When the man is alpha and the woman is more beta in personality type, this is naturally in harmony with the masculine and feminine energy dynamic.
    Women who are more alpha ALSO want their man to be decisive and a leader, so that they CAN relax and rely on him to take care of them… but for that he has to inspire confidence, by having an EVEN BETTER idea than she does about how to get from A to B, and being an EVEN better driver than she is… A man who is always bowing to your opinions, whilst this might lead to less arguments, just doesn’t inspire confidence or offer a woman a sense of security.

86. jack 86

    Evan-
     
    Your definition of alpha female seems to be centered around defining women by a masculine profile of alpha.
     
    I think you are conflating social dominance with reproductive “alphaness”.
     
    You can be a millionaire tech geek, tall, and so socially awkward that you struggle getting women. Anti-game, they call it. But you could be a raging workplace alpha, with all your employees afraid to contradict you. This is a workplace alpha. But women could still reject you.
     
    And yet, go to any Wal-Mart and you can find VERY CUTE young women hanging on their aloof, marginally employed thug. It’s a different thing.
     
    If you are in demand FOR SEX by the opposite sex, you are alpha in the dating/mating sense.
     
     
    By the way, call me what you will, but I would end a dating relationship with an excessively liberal woman. No interest. I would be polite about ending it, but it is incompatible with my preferences. Being the more emotional gender, I expect and tolerate a lot of liberal tendencies in women (although I note that they shift a little more right if the date me long enough). But full-on “progressives” need not apply.
     
    I have converted two self-described liberals into fairly centrist conservatives, which does prove that a large contingent of women do desire a strong man who can be a leader in though and action.
     
    I respect the right of my many liberal friends to their opinions, and many of them have some very good points. But overall, there is only so much of it that I am willing to tolerate in a relationship.
     
     
     
     

87. Jennifer 87

    I doubt Annie’s dude broke up with her over healthcare. My bet is that he broke up with her because he got tired of constant debates/arguments- the last straw just happened to be the healthcare one.

    And Annie, Sherrell has a point- your ‘perfect’ guy won’t dump you, so he can’t be that. I don’t doubt he was great, but if he was really ‘your’ guy, wouldn’t he be bending over backwards to give things another chance? To give you a chance to ‘fix’ your behavior, if that’s how he felt about it?

    He’s not doing/didin’t do those things, so he’s not ‘your’ guy. Try not to romanticize him too much..it will do you no good.

88. Helen 88

    helene, I can understand your confusion, so want to shed some light from a longtime married perspective: The masculine-feminine energy is important and fun and sweet in the dating game, but its importance fades in marriage.
     
    If some women genuinely believe, as you wrote, that they can “let go and allow yourself to be taken care of,” or as Stacy wrote earlier, “be pampered,” please let me shake you gals into reality.  Marriage requires TWO tough, strong people who can each stand on their own feet through a lifetime of struggles together.  You help each other AND you have the capability of handling things on your own. It’s even more important when children are on the scene. It would be absolutely crazy for a mom to think she needs to ask dad’s opinion on every decision – sometimes she’s alone with the baby and he’s choking, or turning pale, or the kid has a gushing wound. Or think of hectic mornings trying to get everyone out the door, or hectic evenings getting everyone to bed – you really think there’s all that time to let the man decide everything?  In case it’s not obvious, the answer is no, no, no. Two mature minds are better than one.
     
    Also, there’s not much time for the woman to be pampered in a marriage. That shouldn’t be the woman’s goal, anyway; each is to honor his or her partner, and it is a better attitude to think that you want to pamper your spouse rather than expecting vice versa. It’s not that pampering doesn’t exist at all; it just doesn’t exist in the way some seem to fantasize: it’s not regular, and it may be nothing more than a loving hug or kiss or a mug of something nice to drink.
     
    I don’t mean this at all condescendingly. Just realize that the game of dating and the reality of marriage are completely separate, and the rules of one don’t always apply to the other. Dating seems goofed up in a lot of ways – too many games, too much twisting around one’s personality to try to fit a mold.  If there’s one piece of advice I can offer, it’s this: be yourself. Other people sense when you’re being real, and that encourages them to be real. Then you get a better sense of who is a good fit.

89. Zaq 89

    Jack

    I think you are reiterating what I said in #73. “Alpha” females are no such thing. They are in fact losers.

    Listen women. You have been attracted to alpha men for the last 100,000 years. This is not something that just happened because you now have the ability to compete with men in the workplace.
    Helene is correct. There is masculine and feminine energy. By becoming “alpha” you have adopted male energy. You are now less attractive to men as a result.

    At the same time, you have backed yourself into a corner by requiring even more male energy to make you feel feminine. You may have competed successfully with men in your career, but in doing so you failed to become a successful woman.

    The small number of men who have higher male energy than you, are not attracted to you. You have now lost the mating game.

    Evan’s suggestion can work in certain circumstances. I have definitely seen strong women form successful partnerships with beta males (read gamma). In all cases though their ”men” would be incapable of earning respect from other males. I can’t see many women finding them the least bit attractive.

90. Saint Stephen 90

    @helen (85)
    Do you want a leader or your want your equal half? Seems to me like you want both in one package….. and just so you know, your leader is not your equal. 

91. Ruby 91

    Helen #88

    Great post! I am finding this either/or, masculine/feminine, alpha/beta crap extremely reductive and tiresome. Most people today are a bit more complex, thankfully. I probably wouldn’t be interested in anyone who wasn’t. 

    I’ve known handsome but very sensitive men who had women drooling over them. I’ve known rich guys who were plain and so socially awkward they had to use escort services. I’ve known short, average-looking men with amazing personalities who’ve had beautiful women after them. I’ve seen very strong, powerful women marry men who were the same – ever heard the phrase “power couple”?
     
    Times change, people change. What you were attracted to in your twenties may be very different from the kind of man who appeals 15-20 years later, let alone what women wanted 100,000 years ago. It’s sad that some of the men who post here are so filled with animosity towards women who are no longer living out some 1950′s ideal of womanhood. But I suppose backlash is inevitable.
     
     
     

92. jack 92

    A competent captain needs a competent first mate. Neither is weak, or incapable.
     
    But they are not equal. The weight and responsibility of leadership is a bigger negative than the perks of leadership. Leadership SHOULD BE an act of service, not a luxury.
     
    Leaders who luxuriate in their position or power are BAD LEADERS.
     
    Yes, I know that it is heresy to suggest that a man is head of the household and leader of his family. Yes, I know that gender equalism demands that the power be split 50-50.
     
    And yet, why then do women most often seek men who have much more power and status than themselves? Why are women attracted to men who are stronger than themselves?
     
    Why does a woman prefer a man taller and more physically powerful than herself?
     
    The only conclusion I can reach is that despite all protests to the contrary, most women want a man more socially dominant than herself, but they want to feel loved and respected by that man. The demands of equality are specious as well – how can one even begin to measure equality in a relationship? This sort of obsessive sexuo-political scorekeeping is tiresome and essentially impossible.
     
    Rarely, rarely, have I ever seen a woman who was much attracted to any man that she could get the better of.
     
    For most women, the moment they feel that they have triumphed over a man, they are looking to move up to the next challenge. This is why so many women stay with difficult jerks for so long. Their challenge has not been completed.

93. Annie 93

     
    “His personality flaw isn’t that he’s a Republican. It’s that he DUMPED you because you didn’t agree with him on health care. What a shallow . . . . . . “
    Okay, Evan – it took me a while to answer this because I was a little upset and had to walk away from the computer. This is incredibly unfair – he’s the best – an amazing, wonderful, terrific guy. Maybe you got this idea because I was portraying him as worse than he really is. There were several issues that we don’t see eye to eye on – I believe he called me ‘socialist’ more than once. Just very silly, on both our parts.
    At the end of the day who CARES if your mate doesn’t share every view about, say, the homeless/ disadvantaged etc.? What has that got to do with your day to day life together? I was happy to agree to disagree, and never discuss anything political ever, it’s just that he felt that I should change my views to his views – that’s the ONE thing that didn’t work about the relationship. But maybe some people just need more  understanding, maybe I wasn’t understanding enough. I just don’t know – not everything can be perfect in a relationship, but if you get 98% of what you want in a guy, do you really have a right to complain about that last 2%?
     
    @ Goldie # 84
     
    I believe everyone deserves full healthcare coverage, young and old, employed or not.
     
    @Christine #82
     
    He is very kind – I come from a much less nice background, I guess you would say, so when I hear stuff like ‘ lazy people on welfare, waiting for handouts’ – since I grew up on what some people call food stamps, I jump to respond, because it hurts.  I don’t believe in waiting for a man, but I do believe that love is hard work.
     
    Thanks for the Good Luck! We are still in touch and he’s not married so who knows? Even Evan would probably say ‘keep yourself open to possibilities’.

94. Evan Marc Katz 94

    I ain’t backing down, Annie. In fact, I’m glad I upset you. Maybe that will jolt you out of the delusion that this guy is 98% perfect.

    Truth is, a guy can be 98% perfect, but that 2% makes it a dealbreaker. He’s perfect, but… he’s an alcoholic. He’s perfect, but… he’s chronically unemployed. He’s perfect, but… he has serious temper issues.

    He’s perfect, but…he dumped me over an argument about health care. Which means it’s more important for him to be right than to be with you.

    Which means he’s may be an impressive guy, but he’s going to make for one shitty husband.

    You should be glad that he’s someone else’s problem now.

95. Helen 95

    Ruby, thanks. I agree with you; I don’t rank people based on whether they’re alpha or beta or have masculine or feminine energy… I like to take each person as he or she is, quirks and all.

    Evan, your responses regarding Annie’s former man are hilarious. You’re really letting it rip with the swearing.   And I agree with you that he’s not the right man for her. But I’m with Jennifer on this – I doubt that it was just one discussion that led to the breakup. Maybe it doesn’t matter at this point; he’s clearly not the right one for her. Having a Princeton degree and wealth doesn’t make someone nearly perfect.

96. Gem 96

    Anne #75,

    I doubt that this one issue was the whole reason he broke up. Maybe he didn’t feel that you were 98% perfect as did you about him. Maybe he really, really liked you but felt there were other things not falling into place for him as well. Maybe the politic thing was just an obvious and convenient excuse for him to use.

    Regardless, the guy’s entitled to what he wants in a mate. It doesn’t make him a creep. Maybe he has political asperations and truly feels a like-minded woman on his arm would be a better fit. Debating all the time can make for a tumuluous relationship, and purposefully avoiding topics that are huge and near and dear to their heart doesn’t seem fulfilling either.

    Just because one person feels that the issue of politics is “small” doesn’t mean another does. It depends on how invested/active a person is in their beliefs and causes.  

    Clearly, he wasn’t meant to be your guy.

    You didn’t need to be more understanding of him. You need to move on and find your real Prince Charming. Sorry you lost, Mr. Perfect (almost) but it’s probably a blessing in disguise. 

97. Gem 97

    Jack #92

    “A competent captain need a competent first mate. Neither is weak or incapable.”

    Yes, Yes! And I agree with everything else you said too!!

98. Goldie 98

    @ Annie #93:
     
    “He is very kind – I come from a much less nice background, I guess you would say, so when I hear stuff like ‘ lazy people on welfare, waiting for handouts’ – since I grew up on what some people call food stamps, I jump to respond, because it hurts.”
     
    He would actually say stuff like that?? Ackk. Okay I get it that, being from a wealthy family, he has no idea what he’s talking about. But, being highly intelligent, a Princeton grad, etc etc, shouldn’t he be able to do some reading and research, and have an open enough mind, to learn more about people and things that he hasn’t had first-hand experience with growing up? Or, (gasp) listen to what you have to say, because you’ve actually been there?
     
    If he cannot do any of those things, then, Evan is right, he’ll make a shitty husband. Not because he’s a Republican, but because he cannot tolerate an opinion other than his own, even if the other opinion is based on facts and experience and his isn’t.
     
    @ Helen #88, heh, my guess is that, to an alpha male, taking care of the house and the kids is a woman’s job. He’ll spot her the cash, but that’s about it. He can’t be bothered with diapers and bedtime stories, as he’s been out all day making money – now, why hasn’t his hot dinner been served yet? Women who think they will be pampered in a marriage with a controlling man, are in for a rude awakening.
     
    I met a woman a few years ago who’d been widowed for fifteen years, and married for maybe twenty years before that. Her husband married her when she was 18, brought her over from Greece, and told her to just take care of the house, raise the kids, and don’t worry about anything else, he’d take care of anything. Then when he was 50, he had a heart attack and died. She was left with three school-age children. She didn’t speak English well, couldn’t drive, didn’t have a profession, didn’t know how to pay the bills or take care of finances. She didn’t even know how to buy groceries, because he’d always done that for her. On top of it it turned out he didn’t have life insurance, so she was left with no money. Took her a long long time to get back on her feet. She is now back in school, and is telling every woman she meets how important it is to be able to function independently. So, yeah, I wouldn’t want to relax and be taken care of, it’s a double edged sword. Not to mention it makes for an awfully boring life, if you ask me!

99. Stacy 99

    So, it appears that a so called alpha female has 3 options: to go for a “beta” guy, to become less alpha herself to attract an alpha guy or to stay single. Which one to chose really depends on her individual situation..

100. Michele 100

     I have to admit for making my fair share of mistakes with men & I’m sure I’ll make more in my future. I just hope not to make the SAME mistakes. Dating is like gardening it takes alot of weeding to get a good crop. In each man I’ve dated I’ve taken away something from the relationship.. some things I like & some things I don’t.  Whether you’re a man or a woman you can’t keep using the same recipe & expect different results.. now that is insanity LOL.
     I think it’s all about moderation, as life should be. I don’t believe there’s anyone that doesn’t have a flaw… that includes us women. I also don’t believe that alphas, betas, etc are all or nothing in their personalities. I am a successful, strong woman & when I’m at work I’m very dominant & assertive. But I like the fact of having a man who can be dominant when I get home. Someone I can depend on to help me take care of the house & bills, etc. It’s exhausting having to be that all the time even if that’s who you are. I think a healhty balance is very important. I know many happily married couples where they both have strong careers & they share in life responsibilities. I think people can be classified alpha, beta, etc but I don’t think everyone of them has exactly every characteristic to the extreme.
     Now I will admit to be attracted to alpha men but I also recognize the fact that alpha, for me, doesn’t necessarily mean he has to be a control freak or a workaholic. Again, balance is key. Knowing when to take control & when to give it over. In the end a man still needs to feel like a man regardless. Now I’m not saying to bow down to him LOL. But I do agree with a comment made before, forgive me for not siting who, a man should lead.

     Also, it’s impossible to change who you are. At some point your true colors will come out. I think everyone is different and more importantly we are different with different people. That’s why there’s no cookie cutter of who we are. I’ve been on dates with many successful men & some bring out a softer side of me & some don’t. It comes down to basic chemistry. I’m currently seeing someone who’s successful & handsome, so far he seems like a good person. Before we even met we connected well on the phone & I easily let me guard down to show who I really am…. And who am I.. a good woman with an amazing son who wants a HEALTHY, committed relationship with an equally good man. Yes, I can be assertive, dominant & even demanding but I also know that I love being feminine, sexy & loving. To be confident in who you are is what men & women find appealing.

     Well I guess that’s more than my 2 cents LOL.

101. Zaq 101

     Personally I dont have an issue with women wanting to have the same opportunities in society as men. They should be given every opportunity.
     Most graduates are now female, Two thirds of medical students are female.
     The jobs that they will move into were once occupied by men. They displace the men and men have to accept lower paid jobs or even have no job at all.
     Again I have no issue with this.

     BUT, look at what women have said they want above. if women want men who are achievers, and more successful than they are, where are they going to find them? How do you square the circle ?

     This is madness, and shows the effect that 100,000 year old evolutionary behaviour has in modern society. Anyone that doesn’t believe that our current sexual desires are the result of ancient gene encoding is a fool. Sorry to break this to you – the Earth is not flat.
      

102. Michele 102

     Oh I would like to address another comment made before regarding men who put up with bitchy women. In my experience men who tolerate women like that are usually extremely shallow & looking for “trophy wives”. None of these men no matter how successful & handsome they are would I even give them an opportunity to date me, as I feel they don’t deserve a good woman like me. Over time inner beauty always comes out. Some of the most beautiful people can be downright ugly once their true personality appears and it won’t take too long for that to happen.

103. Michele 103

     @ Zaq
     I agree with you. I obviously can’t speak for the other women posting on here as I don’t personally know them. As for myself, which is who I can speak for LOL, I’m not looking per say for someone MORE successful, better looking, etc, I just want someone who’s equally as hard working, strives for achievement but who shares my belief in what really matters in life. For me what really matters is having an emotionally available & stable man who will support me in life as that’s what I offer in return.

104. Lance 104

     I totally agree with this, and on the guy’s side, I look for a good complement for my values versus a chick who is a clone of me. In fact, if there are too many commonalities it raises a red flag because it usually means our polarity will be neutral, which is not desirable. 

     I’m an alpha male and I insist on alpha females. Alpha for me means self-aware, socially adept, and got her shit together. It has nothing to do with ball busting or salary.

105. Lance 105

     @annie @EMK, just read the above thread abut the Princeton guy. He sounds like a huge douche. Does anyone remember the character Jeffrey Graves from Mad Men who went to Princeton? How he loved to remind everyone he went to Princeton, class of ’55? Massive douche. Avoid those guys. 

     Socially adept men capitulate and let their hot girlfriends win intellectual debates. I always recommend that an alpha male act just a tad dumber than their smart gf’s because it’s healthier for the relationship. Never go the other way around. NEVER try to overpower your female significant other. That’s bush league. 

     Women are just flat out smarter emotionally and socially and we need to respect that. 

     Also, Annie, you sound hot. Hit me if you want to hang.  

106. Nicole 106

     @Annie,
     Mr. Perfect doesn’t sound so perfect and it just sounds like you give him a lot of credit for what he was born into, which is no indication of his character.  Was he the first moneyed and privileged person that you dated?  Maybe you gave him too much credit as well for things that are just kind of natural if someone is raised a certain way (the wining and dining for example).  It might have seemed like a big deal for you but it can very much be par for the course for some people.  
     If he’s from old money, then even getting into Princeton may not have been hard, especially if he’s legacy. 
     At any rate, don’t put him or future partners on  pedestal just b/c they were lucky enough to have been born into privilege.
     I’m guessing that you managed to get educated and get a good job to run into a guy like that.  So if you didn’t have the world handed to you as you were growing up and still made it, that is MUCH more impressive to me.
     I personally really dislike hearing people who grew up with everything criticizing those who didn’t.  It seems too easy for some people to take luck (who you were born to) as a sign that they are superior beings.  You don’t need to feed into that mentality.  
     I hope your future partners value your opinions and don’t make you feel inferior because of your background, because you are not.   
     I’m sure it all sounded and looked good on paper, but it sounds like he did you a huge favor.  Having an Ivy League degree does not excuse being an a$$. 

107. Ellen 107

     I think about the term “alpha” a lot lately, not sure why. Maybe because, with Evan’s help, determined recently I am too hung up on alpha men. Dad was one (too alpha actually). But hey, they just do it for me. I am passionate and I prefer passionate.

     But now realize that alpha seldom comes packaged with heightened emotion/touchy feely-ness. That I have to be more vocal about my needs, etc.

     But I’m also smart enough to know it’s a stereotype. The best definition for alpha, male or female (I’m probably an alpha female, btw, but I don’t coerce so much as PERSUADE/influence given my Southern Belle upbringing (a modern, progressive SB can move mountains btw) is SIMPLY this: balls.

     Balls, respect, courage more than is average. Does the right thing always or nearly always even at detriment to oneself. I find most people inherently selfish, always cutting corners metaphorically, not all that spiritual. An alpha person gets the job done, whatever it is and is moral, conscientious imo. It’s just become a handy term for me. LOL

108. Michele 108

     @ Nicole
     I completely agree with you, as having made the same mistake Annie has made. Social status (money, education, etc) says nothing about how good a person someone is.
     Sometimes the fantasy man is better than the reality version LOL. Then again they don’t call it a fantasy for nothing LOL.

109. Noele 109

     @Zaq #101, 2/3rds of medical students are female? Really? Can you provide some evidence to that statement? It is simply not accurate, unless you’re including nursing students in the phrase “medical students”.

110. Annie 110

      
     Okay, here it is . . . . . I shouldn’t have brought my guy up – we still talk occasionally, he says he still thinks about us, and he is still not married. Maybe my first post sounded bitter or mean or like I was looking to trash him. What I should have mentioned is that I actually still kind of care about him, and I haven’t closed the door on that yet, so I really don’t like hearing bad things said about him – not from Evan or anyone else – if I had known that’s where the thread would go, I would never have brought him up as an example.
      

     As far as background, sometimes people don’t know what they’re saying BECAUSE they come from such a nice families – it’s not a crime to have a nice family – but they  still have good hearts.

     I think that we should all try to have compassion for people who are different from us, whatever those differences are.  Especially if we care about them! I’m sure everyone here has said things they wish they could take back.

     Sorry for making the thread veer off course, I’ll leave it at that.

111. Evan Marc Katz 111

     You’re not getting it, Annie. The guy who breaks up with you over a political discussion is the guy who breaks up with you over a bad road trip or an awkward family holiday. He’s the guy who dumps you when you gain five pounds or when he finds another woman more attractive. He’s the guy who can use anything as an excuse to end your relationship. So it doesn’t matter if he’s an amazing specimen of a man – your DREAM man. His willingness to get rid of you on a dime tells me, and all the other readers all we need to hear. I only hope you can step away from your strong feelings and acknowledge the truth that I’m sharing. He may be a great guy, but he’s an objectively bad long-term bet.

112. Michele 112

     @ Annie #110
     I’m sorry if you feel everyone is ganging up on you. I would feel that way too if I was in your position. Although I feel that people here, including Evan, are hoping you see that sometimes people aren’t who you really think they are. It’s hard when you’re emotionally invested b/c you don’t want to think you’ve been used or have wasted your time.

     I dated a man for 1 year. He was EVERYTHING I thought I wanted in a man… smart, educated, great job, extremely handsome & came from a family of privelege. I was soooo infatuated with him. I made him everything in my life. I sacrificed time with my family & friends to be with him. When we would talk about “us” he would keep saying… I don’t want to be with someone else but I really don’t want a relationship with anyone. I turned a blind eye & kept thinking if I stick it out & show him how great I am he’ll change. As a result I stayed in an uncommitted & undefined relationship for 1 year. In the end I found out he was pursuing other women online. I was completely devasted but even when I found that out I didn’t want to let him go b/c I was in love with him. I then saw Evan’s video about the fantasy man. I took me a few months but eventually started looking at the situation from the outside & realized how much I was used by a self-centered & narcistic man. After telling him never to contact me he still does …I’m happy to say that I REFUSE to return his calls or text.. No response is the most impactful response. So Annie, don’t do anything b/c people here are telling you to or that you feel ganged up on… but PLEASE do think about what people are saying objectively.

     I wish you all the best in whatever your decisions are.

113. Zaq 113

     Noele

     Re medical students. Sorry didnt have full evidence of that just extrapolating. A friend is at medical school and two thirds on her course are women.I have another friend who is responsible for setting standards for doctor intake at hospitals, and he was commenting to me how few men he gets to see these days.
     
     There is only one way this is going, unless men step up to the plate
     
     

114. Goldie 114

     Two things….
      
     1) I still kind of care for a guy who, a few months ago, dumped me when I least expected it, with no explanation. Logically, I know he was dead wrong for me. But, some days, I still miss him. So, I can relate to what you feel. That doesn’t make your guy, or my guy, good relationship material. (In my case, the guy actually knows that, and tried to warn me, but did I listen? heck no!)
      
     2) “As far as background, sometimes people don’t know what they’re saying BECAUSE they come from such a nice families – it’s not a crime to have a nice family – but they  still have good hearts.”
      
     I cannot give your guy a break based on that. I have a few friends that come from (in my opinion) very wealthy families. They have a very realistic view of what does on around them, in spite of their backgrounds. This comes from, I don’t know, having a brain and paying attention to people around them. I could cut him some slack if he was a teenager, but as an adult he should have seen and experienced enough to, well, know what he’s saying.

115. Karl R 115

     Stacy said: (#47)
     “In fact, when I turn my bitch on, I get more attention, more gifts and more pursuit than when I am being sweet and easy going.”

     Men try to fix problems. The men are giving you attention, gifts and pursuit in an effort to fix the bitchiness problem. They’re putting in the effort in order to get you to be sweet and easy-going.

     Furthermore, I would say that the men who do that are fairly clueless about human psychology. If they reward bitchy behavior, that encourages you to be a bitch in the future. The correct response is to not reward you with attention -and- to not reward you with drama.

     But let me ask a more pertinent question. The men who gave you more attention, more gifts and more pursuit … are they still around as your boyfriend? If not, then either your strategy failed, or their strategy failed (or possibly both).

     Stacy said: (#62)
     “All men who are instrinsically risk-takers are not boring. They could be doctors without borders, wall street traders, military officers, fire fighters or professional explorers.”

     A man with a gambling addiction may be “not boring,” but most people would find him undesirable for other reasons.

     People in high-risk professions (commercial fishermen, military in combat zones) are not necessarily desirable as spouses. They don’t always come home in one piece … or alive. If you’re willing to accept that kind of risk in order to have a more exciting partner, that’s certainly an acceptable trade-off.

     I’m a little surprised because you’re the only woman I know who considers a deadly occupation to be a benefit in a significant other.

     Stacy said: (#99)
     “So, it appears that a so called alpha female has 3 options: to go for a ‘beta’ guy, to become less alpha herself to attract an alpha guy or to stay single”

     That may be a little over-simplified, but it seems to be generally correct. Pick the one that apeals to you.

116. Joe 116

     Annie, if a man does not want to be with you (for whatever reason), by definition he cannot be the perfect man.

117. Nicole 117

     @Zaq and Noele,
     Overall, women don’t make up 2/3 of ALL doctors, but they are the majority of young doctors (under 35)…54%, AND they have a slight lead in medical school as well, in some countries (U.S. and UK) approaching 60% of all medical students. (Over 50% but not anywhere close to 67%)
     http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/08/world/europe/08iht-ffdocs08.html?pagewanted=all

     There are also more women than men in graduate school, but again, the numbers are between 51-55% or so.   

118. AnnieC 118

     @92
     Excellent points about leadership.

     I’ll have to call myself AnnieC from now on, since we have another Annie.
      

119. Zaq 119

     Nicole

     I did a quick google. Plenty seem to think female medical students outnumber men two to one. Seems I was  right. Indeed women medical graduates have outnumbered men since the early 90s. 
     57% of all graduates are female.

     Look the point I was trying to get across was this. If women apply the pickiness shown above and in other topics within this blog then the following will occur:

     If there are 60 women at college for every 40 men, and half the men are perfectly happy dating women without degrees, but the women will not, then there will be only 20 man available for these 60 women.

     Of these men, half are under 5 feet 9 inches and therefore losers. That leaves 10 men.
     Half of these are complete nerds, so we can forget them. Down to 5.

     3 of those are too ugly, 1 of these is a drug abuser and 1 is prematurely losing his hair.

     We only have 1 left, but he is tall, dark, handsome, intelligent, caring. He would be absolutely perfect ….. if he wasn’t gay !  

     Can you see why we men get so frustrated with the female comments here. That is why Evan and many dating coaches are saying forget chemistry. You cannot have what you desire. You may however get what you need.

       
       
         
      

120. Nicole 120

     @Zaq…how are you right?  57% does not equal 2/3 and that does not give you a 2:1 ratio…so I get your point but maybe you should check your math, b/c that part is wrong so don’t pat yourself on the back when you continue to make such a glaring math error on grade school level math.  

      

121. Former Intern 121

     @Annie,
     I totally agree with everything Evan said about your “Dream Guy” that got away, because I was married to him (with the exception of the wealthy family and his Ivy League degree) for more than 17 years. And trust me, I had blinders on while dating and early in the marriage to realize how truly insensitive and controlling he was. By the time I woke up, we had two kids I didn’t want to put through the trauma of divorce.

     A guy who calls you names, has to always be right–that is NOT someone you want to date, much less spend the rest of your life with. Had I recognized these signs for what they were early on, I could have saved myself years of misery in an emotionally abusive marriage.

     Filing for divorce was the best thing I ever did, besides having my two sons. This guy breaking up with you is THE best thing that could have ever happened to you. You’ve been saved years of misery, and trust me, your self-esteem will thank you!

122. Zaq 122

     Nicole

     Enough already. I do have the references to support the figures. They are not important to the point I’m making.

     57% = all graduates from all disciplines

     Understand ?

     
     

123. Goldie 123

     @ 119:
      
     “If there are 60 women at college for every 40 men, and half the men are perfectly happy dating women without degrees, but the women will not, then there will be only 20 man available for these 60 women.
     Of these men, half are under 5 feet 9 inches and therefore losers. That leaves 10 men.
     Half of these are complete nerds, so we can forget them. Down to 5.
     3 of those are too ugly, 1 of these is a drug abuser and 1 is prematurely losing his hair.
     We only have 1 left, but he is tall, dark, handsome, intelligent, caring. He would be absolutely perfect ….. if he wasn’t gay !  ”
      
     Hmm, what I see here are 20 men, one of them a drug addict and the other one plays for the opposite team. That leaves 18. Their height, lack of hair etc are irrelevant. Being nerdy is a plus.
      
     I prefer my men highly intelligent, but since these 18 have somehow managed to graduate from college, that means all of them have a working brain, and I’d say about half of them are as smart as I like ‘em. That leaves me with nine. Plenty to choose from.
      
     I don’t know where this myth comes from about women only wanting tall, handsome guys who still have all their hair. Not from real life, I guess, because, looking at my girlfriend’s husbands, hardly any of them could be on the cover of GQ, or on a Rogaine ad. They are all however smart, fun, and generally cool guys to be around. But my girlfriends would be pretty insulted to hear that they’d “settled” for their husbands, and would laugh you out of the room if you suggest there was/is no chemistry in their relationships. Remember, brain is the sexiest part of a guy’s body

124. Goldie 124

     Also, Zaq, don’t want to sound like a total nerd, but your hypothetical men add up to 21, not 20 Ten short guys + five nerds + three uglies + cokehead + bald spot + one charming gay = 21.
      
     Apologize for the double post.

125. Jadafisk 125

     119. But generally men who have degrees aren’t okay with pairing up with women who don’t in reality… and vice versa, really – their life paths don’t mesh. Women who don’t attend college and want kids are busy having them during their early to mid twenties with non degreed age peers who have built a solid foundation in the working world already, whether they’re husbands or boyfriends. Successful guys with degrees usually aren’t interested in dating seriously during their college years (especially with campus ratios being what they are) and categorically frown upon dating single mothers, so they’d either have to find a single non-degreed woman in her early twenties/late teens, when she would still be childless (they usually have serious prospects among non-degreed men in their age range by then, however, who they wouldn’t just drop for a flash of green) or choose between the next crop of degreed young women in their early twenties and their own childless and waiting (disproportionately degreed) age peers in their mid to late twenties… which would mean that those, and therefore these degreed women would/do have prospective degreed partners, just a little age staggered.  Also, as more women get degrees, the importance of a degree will be more easily translated to field experience or transferred onto male-dominated undergrad degrees in STEM fields and/or graduate professional degrees (still way more male JDs and MBAs, just more female PhDs/MSWs/MFAs in grad school who will eventually be paid 40k annually with 60k+ in student loan debt) to maintain the status quo. The business world (the medical field has more stringent legally mandated requirements, so it doesn’t apply there) has an idea of the people that it sees as appropriate leaders, and that idea is heavily gendered. If they don’t take women seriously, feel that international competitors/partners wouldn’t either, and continue to see feminine traits (as evinced by most women and some men) as antithetical to quality leadership and stereotypically masculine leadership traits as disagreeable when evinced by women (you can’t be a leader if people don’t want to follow you), by hook or by crook, they’ll find a way to hand the reins of power over to the next generation of men.

     As of 2000 (Mare & Schwartz) among marriages with 18-32* year old wives, 66% of married college educated+ men in the US are married to college educated+ women. 25% more college educated+men are married to women with 2-3 years of completed post secondary schooling - could be an AA, could be a dropout, could be a junior or senior… college educated+ women marry men with 2-3 post secondary at the same rate. The percentage of college educated+ men and women who marry H.S. educated people with no post secondary is also the same, hovering at 9%. Assortative mating by educational attainment – probably not career success level, however – seems to be mutual.

     *66% of college educated people are married by 30. Perhaps you contend that once that threshold is crossed, people start becoming way less particular about education, or that people who don’t want to marry an educational peer wait/take longer to marry?

126. Helen 126

     Zaq 119, I think you may be missing what women may or may not find attractive or at least acceptable.

     Where did you get the idea that women wouldn’t accept a guy who is 5’9″? That got snuck into the discussion somewhere, but if I recall, only one woman on another post said it was unacceptable, which I found crazy. While many women may prefer tall men, 5’9″ IS tall to many women. I consider it so. (Then again, I never cared about height in the first place.)  Remember that the average height of American women is 5’4″. It’s all relative. To a woman who is 5’4″, 5’9″ is tall.

     Also, where did you get the idea that women don’t like nerds? Goldie and I both adore them, and surely we can’t be the only ones.  While I personlly don’t categorize men into “alpha,” “beta,” etc., I think it’s fair to say that women would be more likely to put nerds into the alpha category, because it is likely that nerds will do well in whatever they pursue.

     Even ugliness and hair loss are not dealbreakers. Drug abuse and homosexuality are, for a woman looking for a healthy, heterosexual relationship. 

     I do like your points in #101. Again, though, I challenge the stereotype that all women want a man who is MORE successful than they are. A few women have expressed that here, but they don’t speak for all of us. What does it mean to be more successful, anyway, if two people are in completely different fields? All these comparative terms – “more successful,” “alpha,” - are really annoying, because relationships should not be about one-upmanship (or “one-downmanship,” as the case for some women may be).

127. Zaq 127

     @Helen

     Well I hear so many “yes, but I’m not like that” comments. There is plenty of evidence that women will make a clear statement of what they are attracted to, and then be attracted to someone who is none of those things.

     There is a huge amount of information on the web on the height issue. Results from science experiments, speed dating, dating web site statistics, anecdotals from managers of dating agencies etc.
     Height is a major MAJOR issue with most women, despite what they may say.
     As is the amount of money a man earns. One study, having taking info from tens of thousands of dating site interactions, tried to figure just how much more a man needs to make in order to compensate for the reduction in one inch in height. It was a lot.

     How about that millionaire matchmaker program where she tries to “sell”  a very rich, and fit guy to a number of women. The guy is  less than 5 ft 7″. As he watches behind a two way mirror, she lies to the women about his height saying he’s 5ft 9″.  He has to watch the look of horror on each of the women’s faces.
     I note your comments about 5ft 9″ as a height. Half of all men are not 5ft 9″. They are LESS than that.

     Nerds rule the world, and at some point women wake up to the fact that Jocks are not going to bring home the bacon. The nerds  become more attractive. But at college they are more likely to be painting their Warhammer figures except for their night out at the chess club. I am describing a guy who is at college now, and he isn’t getting any I assure you. 

     The thing about stereotypes is that they are normally true for MOST people.

      

128. jack 128

     People get the cause/correlation aspect of a-hole/b-tch “attraction” all wrong.
      
     Women are not attracted to guys BECAUSE they are jerks, it is simply that a man who is that attractive can often AFFORD to display jerk behavior. If you are high status enough that you have many women presenting themselves to you, you will eventually view women as an inexpensive and discardable resource, an attitude readily observed with many pro/college athletes and rock stars.
      
     Women would much PREFER that this uber-alpha be kind and sweet to them, but will instead ENDURE the indifference and/or emotional abuse because it is an acceptable price to pay to have the social boost given by being with such a high status man.
      
     Men, similarly, will put up with all manner of pain from a woman of sufficient attractiveness. Almost no men are actually attracted to the b–chiness. Those men who tolerate it see it as an acceptable price to pay to have access to a hotter woman.
      
     Immaturity and insecurity is present in both gender examples.
      

129. Margaret 129

     Oh, Annie, your dilemma really struck a nerve with me,  having been there myself.

     But Evan is 1000% correct on this one. This guy is an asshole. It also reminded me why, in general, I prefer not to date politically conservative men. Many tend to be unwilling to listen to other viewpoints.  I am one of those “progressives”, and I find progressive men so much sexier.  And health care is a passionate interest of mine.  In any case, I think people can disagree without being disrespectful. 

     I am older than you, and while I believe in compromise, I will not give up my core beliefs to hang  onto a man .I’d rather be single.  I certainly do not look for arguments, but when asked my opinion on health care and other issues, I will speak up.

     Like Evan said, if he is this rigid about this issue, he will certainly be on others.  I certainly do not wish to spend my life walking on eggshells, which is what you would do with this “gentleman.”

     Annie, you have dodged a major bullet.  Be thankful.    If you want to be a Stepford Wife, keep hoping he’ll come back.

130. Zaq 130

     I’ll tell you why women are running out of men to marry
     Jadafisk@125
      
     Wow that looks impressive. I see you have given this some thought.
     I tried posting yesterday and the post was rejected so try again.
     Rather than give you my opinion look at this link. Written by the current Major of London, previous head of Oxford Union and a bit of an academic. Since he is ultimately responsible for tens of thousands of jobs, you may be interested in his take on the situation.
     I must say I think that his reasoning is pretty sound.
     Oh and Nicole he states that 2/3rds of medical students are female !

     Looks like this thing doesnt want me to inbed the link, so just google
     “I’ll tell you why women are running out of men to marry”

      - its a telegraph article
      

131. Helen 131

     Zaq, that article lacks relevance for the United States, AND it is poorly supported.

     First: One of the author’s 2 important points was lack of mobility between classes. That may describe the UK well, where class structure is still astonishingly intact, but you know as well as I (well, it may be possible you don’t; I’ve spent time in the UK) that this is certainly not the case in the US.

     Second: I don’t have much respect for his ability to support his assertions. Consider this poorly constructed paragraph, which is the only one to offer “proof” of anything he writes: “Since the emergence of our species, it has been a brutally sexist feature of romance that women on the whole — and I stress on the whole — will want to mate/procreate with men who are either on a par with themselves, or their superior, in socio-economic and intellectual attainment. A recent study shows that if a man’s IQ rises by 16 points, his chances of marrying increase by 35 per cent; if a woman’s IQ rises by 16 points, her chances of getting hitched decline by the same amount.”

     He starts by positing he knows facets of human nature since the dawn of our species, and then he attempts to “backs it up” with a nonsensical example of IQ. How long has the IQ test been around? Mid-20th century. Besides, that particular study was done in one moment of time, not longitudinally. If the study were done now, the results could be entirely different, reflecting the changes in female:male ratios in education.

     If that is his brand of “logic,” then I don’t respect him as a thinker. 

132. Nicole 132

     @Goldie, #124…Zaq has already shown that numbers are not his thing, per the whole discussion about the percentages of women in college. 

     But I’m sure he’ll pipe in to tell you that you are somehow wrong as he did with me.  He insisted that 2/3 of medical school students were women, and then came back with proof of 57% and a comment that “plenty seem to think that it is two to one”, but it all became muddled and I realized there was no point in trying to have a math lesson with him here.   You probably know the saying about trying to have a battle of wits with an unarmed man…

133. Nicole 133

     Sorry for the double post..

     @Zaq, a professor’s opinion is still an opinion.  Look up the numbers on the AMA or AMCAS websites.  They show how many people, women, etc applied to and are currently enrolled in medical school.

     Learn the difference between an actual study and an op/ed piece… 

134. Jonathan 134

     I’m a physician, single and enjoy reading this blog. I’ve learned quite a bit about women and dating from Evan and all the posters here. And I believe Evan does a great job explaining men and the mistakes women make dating.

     The data about the percentage of women in medical school is here:
     https://www.aamc.org/download/170248/data/2010_table1.pdf

     For the 2009-2010 year, total enrollment of women was 47.8%.

     But the percentage is very different depending what medical school you are looking at.
     https://www.aamc.org/download/161128/data/table1-facts2010school-web-pdf.pdf

     For instance, at the University of Washington, where I went to medical school, women comprise 52.8% of the class.

     However, Morehouse is 63.2% women, UCLA Drew is 62.4% women. In contrast, at the University of Utah, women comprise just 31.7% of the class, and at Uniformed Health Services University (basically military medical school), 28.4% are women. 

     The story is different at the undergraduate level. I like this NY Times article from last year, The New Math On Campus, where is says that “Women have represented about 57 percent of enrollments at American colleges since at least 2000, according to a recent report by the American Council on Education”.

     http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/07/fashion/07campus.html?pagewanted=all 

     I particularly like the comment from a female student at North Carolina,  “Out of that 40 percent, there are maybe 20 percent that we would consider, and out of those 20, 10 have girlfriends, so all the girls are fighting over that other 10 percent”.

     This is exactly what Evan, Zaq, and Jack point out — and many women seem to defend — that most women are only interested in a very small percentage of eligible men. And this comment is from a young women whose dating prospects are the best they will ever be. Imagine what she’ll be saying in 10 years, when the best men really are unavailable, as this Slate article explains.

     From Slate Magazine, The Eligible-Bachelor Paradox.
     http://www.slate.com/id/2188684/
      

135. Zaq 135

     Helen, Nicole

     What is your problem ? A man makes statements in a national newspaper, includes plenty of statistics in support and knows he could get shot down if they were wrong. I don’t see any evidence that he was. 

     At no point did I say that women doctors outnumber number men.

     At no point did I say that 57% of medical students are female

     However Nicole has argued that I have. Please go read it again. 
     When people have a weak case, they resort to putting up a “straw man”   
     This is where a person simply ignores a person’s actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version, and attacks that.

     The article written by Johnson says that 57% of all students are female. This is backed up by a USA Today article that states exactly the same.

     This is a quote from a research fellow in the BMJ  ”Over the past 30 years the proportion of women attending medical schools has steadily risen in many countries including the UK, US, Canada, and Australia … all UK medical schools had more female students than male, with the percentage of women exceeding 65% in some” However this was 2002. Some medical schools are claiming a 3 to 1 ratio.

     And to back up a weak case, if all else fails, resort to an ad hominem attack. Attacking me as an individual is disgraceful, and sadly says much more about you than it does your argument.

     And the exact proportions now or in the past is irrelevant to the point I am making. Are you seriously suggesting that medical student ratios are central to my argument ? We know where this is trending, and it is to women professionals out numbering men.
     Is this correct ? 

     Women want to mate with men who are at least their equal, but preferably a higher achiever. Is this correct ? Looking at womens comments on these blogs it would appear so, and to me and the Major of London, it is not only an observed reality, but also backed up by research in human behaviour.

     If women want achievers, but men do not, and women achievers outnumber men in the first place, there are not going to be enough men for the women. Is this correct ?

        

       

        

         

         
      

136. Greg 136

     Annie, your criteria for dream guy is very, very shallow.  Him having all the things you mentioned doesn’t make him a great guy any more than big breasts and a cute face make someone a great woman.  It is also clear he doesn’t even respect your background based on his comments.  I’m an African American male, private school educated and I’ve never been poor.  My mom didn’t even have to work.  Yet I can still understand the struggle that my parents and grandparents went through to provide for me, and I know that living an easy doesn’t make me better than those who are poor. I would also say that I would probably side with your “dream guy” on the health care debate.  Yet his comments and actions show that he lacks empathy and understanding or any respect for you and your background.  He has an air of superiority and sounds like an arrogant douche.  That will not likely change and you should find some one who will respect everything you represent and your opinions as well.  Also he isn’t stupid, so even if you pretend to agree he will know you don’t. Therefore don’t expect him to marry you, because he won’t. But if you focus on character than you will find someone who will.

137. Jadafisk 137

     But… women aren’t “in danger” of outnumbering male achievers, by the set of metrics by which we have always measured achievement. Due in no small part to the majors that they disproportionately choose in tandem with the fact that the legal and business fields (along with medicine, the primary sources of the most moneyed folks that still feel compelled to generate income 40 hours a week) have a heavily masculinized culture, that 57% of women currently attending college are incredibly unlikely to field many top earners, let alone enough to equal the glut of Baby Boomer and Gen X men still out there making money. What they will do is escape the minimum wage pink collar jobs that are the only options available to women without degrees, which is probably why they’re taking up the opportunity to go to school in the first place in slightly higher numbers. There was never even a memory of something equivalent to the trades where women with H.S. degrees alone made a decent living, so they’re trying to secure/sustain a middle class existence for themselves, not achieve mistress of the universe status, for the most part. Female career mediocrity may actually just demand more school than male career mediocrity does. This is either an entirely fabricated problem (Poor little rich girls… they have the world, but now who will you share it with… should have gone along with nature and stayed in the kitchen!), or a problem that’s at least 50 years until actual fruition on a large scale.

     Also, a successful woman can just purchase a higher attractiveness level for herself like any other sought-after commodity. The daughters of the wealthy do it all. of. the. time.

138. Ms. Bee 138

     I saw Evan mentioned his pairing with his wife upthread, and it closely resembles our relationship, just with genders reversed. I think these kinds of pairings can be very compatible, and give them “two thumbs up.”
      
     I thank my partner ALL. THE. TIME. for “putting up with me!” He is much better at sweating the small stuff, and has excellent patience. His cooking puts my silly attempts to shame. He always sees the sides of situations that I don’t, because I tend to be overly straightforward in my analysis. And I in turn help him become more organized, better able to prioritize and work toward goals, and more comfortable in certain social situations. I show that I care by helping financially, and he in turn offers massages, a sympathetic ear, etc. It’s wonderful that we’re different because each of us brings opposite but necessary dynamics to the partnership.
      
     Looking over my dating history, I realize I’ve dated some alphas, but not as many as I thought, which is funny, since they definitely stand out in my mind more. I dated my alphas when I was pretty young – late teens and early 20s, since I started seeing my future hubby at 24 – and much like you learn not to stick a fork in an electrical socket, I realized eventually that when two aggressive, intense people date, the sparks that fly are often not good sparks. Each time I dated an alpha, I definitely noticed that it felt more like a competition than a relationship. To compensate, and to recover from those alphas, sometimes I would swing too far in the other direction. Then, I found myself dating people so apathetic about everything that they resembled slugs, or so directionless that they reminded me of boats lost at sea. Balance is a beautiful thing!
      
     My hope for all single people is that you find partners you can put up with for the long haul, where you evolve together, creating a relationship you can work toward and build on as a team. Anyway, I’ve enjoyed posting on here these past few days during my downtime, but I have to get back to my duties pretty soon. I’m sure I’ll stop by again someday for more chat, though. Happy dating (and debating), everyone!

139. Jonathan 139

     Getting back to Evan’s topic, “How can you attract and keep the right guy”, I looked at Evan’s video and what he said about what successful men want, i.e. nurturing, thoughtful, supportive, patient, fun, playful and sexy partners.

     I love smart, independent women. And while I’ve dated my share of doctors, Ph.D’s and so forth, I actually don’t care what kind of education or how much money she earns. As a physician, I work 60 to 80+ hour weeks, including many nights and weekends on call. I earn an income that most people only dream about. I listen to people complain about their aches and pains and life problems all day. I deal with life and death on a daily basis.

     But Evan is right, when I get home or have the weekend off, I want someone to care about me. To treat me with respect and kindness. No games. I have enough drama at work, I don’t need it in my love life.

     I’ve never been married, but I would love to be. I really want to share my life with someone.  I had a great girlfriend for a few years who yearned to marry me, and I considered marrying her. We got along great physically (skiing, hiking, windsurfing), politically, socially, sexually…. But she never figured out that what I wanted in a long term relationship was someone to support me in my life outside of work. To be my compliment.  She made other things in her life a priority, and it wasn’t me.

     We are still friends and she recently lost her job and her home and so she moved in with her new boyfriend. He has an MBA and is very successful. She asked me how she could make her new relationship work better. I told her to “make him the most important thing in your life”. Then she asked me “how do I do that?” I just smiled and said, “just do all the things you never did for me”.

140. jack 140

     Conservative guys are less open minded?
      
     Pfffft- sure, okay. I’ve met plenty of closed-minded progressives too. Neither side of the political debate has cornered the market on unreasonable positions.
      
     Conservative women are hot. Maybe it’s their willingness to go against the grain of their friends and take an unfashionable viewpoint. I admire it.

141. Evan Marc Katz 141

     Actually, Jack, the GOP has cornered the political debate on unreasonable positions. Here’s a perfect example: discussing how the left views compromise as a virtue and the right views it as a weakness. That just about says it all (although I’m sure you’ll say more).

     Truth is that the right is largely intolerant (to gays, blacks, Latinos, the poor, etc.) and the left is intolerant of intolerance towards those groups. Being intolerant of intolerance is a virtue, in my book, although you can certainly twist it to make them sound like they’re rigid in their dogma for things like “equal rights” or “affordable health care”. I simply like to say that liberals are close-minded to close-minded points of view.

     Sorry to shoot you down so publicly, but that’s what you get when you post on a liberal Jewish athiest dating coach’s blog, you know?

     P.S. The first word that leaps to mind when thinking of Ann Coulter, Sarah Palin, Michelle Bachmann, et al, isn’t “hot”. It’s “scary”.

     P.P.S. Please don’t write a political rebuttal. This is a blog about dating and relationships, specifically MY blog about dating and relationships, and I don’t want this thread to continue on this track. Thanks.

     P.P.P.S. Those of you who wrote political rebuttals to me should have read the P.P.S. part. I’m fine with dissent – look at all the varied points of view on here – I’m just keeping it on topic.

142. Zaq 142

     There are so many angry women here !

     Unless your position supports the view that there is a male conspiracy to suppress women, it is immediately dismissed.
     The momentum is building. Not only are there more female undergraduates, but from what I have read they are getting better grades. They are already displacing men in the workplace and this trend will continue.

     I do agree that work place  organisations are full of testosterone fueled male aggression, and this has led some women to put on the mantle of aggression in order to compete. There is plenty of evidence of that on this blog.
     This may change in the future. However in general men are not attracted to aggressive women. We are attracted to nurturing women. We are not looking for a woman that will stand beside us in battle. Gentle, supportive, sensitive are the traits that will make a good mother. Yes its that genes thing again.
     I strongly support women’s right to compete with men, but at the moment that appears to be self defeating when it comes to attracting a life partner. Putting off motherhood until your 40s isn’t going to work well.

     Evolution takes tens of thousands of years, so don’t expect any changes in who we are attracted to someday soon.

     Ladies, I will say that the suggestion that you seek out non dominant males that you are naturally not attracted to, makes as much sense as telling men to seek out ugly women. Its not in our nature is it ? May work for some.

     So, the only option left appears to be to give up being “alpha”, or buy into that “women need a man like fish need a bicycle” rubbish.

      

143. Helen 143

     Jonathan 139: Why should the woman make YOU the most important thing in her life, when it’s clear that you don’t make HER the most important thing in your life?

     Not once in your comments did you say anything about cherishing her as well. In fact, you seem to assume that any woman should just be fine with your working 60-80 hours per week. Regardless of whether you are or not, your post reads as purely selfish. Women aren’t attracted to that.

     In reality, both spouses should make each other a top priority. But to expect the spouse to be THE top priority at all times is, as I wrote in another post, unrealistic. Sometimes other things come first by necessity, such as kids and elderly parents, and yes, sometimes work.  But it should be an even and shared commitment.

144. Sayanta 144

     Helen- agreed with your assessment of Jonathan. Ugh- that post made my skin crawl. Talk about seeing your partner as a lesser person!

145. Goldie 145

     I don’t know, I kinda gave Jonathan the benefit of the doubt – most of what he wrote may mean many different things, some of them valid. Plus, it’s hard to be a super supportive bf/husband when you’re pulling 80-hour weeks and get phone calls every night (yeah, some of my friends are doctors, so I’ve heard horror stories). It’s the last paragraph that got me… “I smiled and said ‘Just do all the things you never did for me’”… nice comeback, buddy, you sure showed that woman who’d just lost her job and her house!… high-five? Relationships are teamwork, not just one person complementing the other and the other taking it for granted. Maybe that teamwork begins with not kicking the other person when they’re already down… even if they’re a stranger or an ex-girlfriend… just for the sake of practicing random acts of kindness, ya know?
      
     Actually it’s a turnoff to me when the guy I date is mean to his ex… since one day, I will be the ex too.

146. Jonathan 146

     @Helen143
     Please re-read my post. I never said I wanted her to make ME the most important thing in her life. What I said was:
      ”She made other things in her life a priority, and it wasn’t me”.
     I did say that she asked my advice about her new relationship, and how to make it work better. My advice to her was to “make him the most important thing in your life”. This was advice to a woman who had just lost her job and her home. She had no money to pay her bills. She had spent thousands of dollars keeping an old dog alive. She had maxed out her credit cards, and the bill collectors were after her. Her options were to move back to her parent’s house, to live out of her car, or to move in with her boyfriend.  
     Her response was interesting in that she didn’t know how to make him the most important thing in her life, and you do it by being nurturing, thoughtful, supportive… I think that this idea is something that Evan is trying to get across to the single women who want to date and keep successful men. 

     Also, Helen, I intentionally left out any details as to what she did or didn’t do, and what I did or didn’t do in the relationship. It’s interesting that from nothing (except how hard I work) you concluded that I was a selfish person.
     You also write, “…it’s clear that you don’t make HER the most important thing in your life”.

     Where is that clear? Again, you have no idea of the particulars of the relationship. You are just reading between the lines and making things up. Apparently you think a successful hardworking man can’t make his girlfriend his priority outside of work.

     Helen, you are hard on people for not fully supporting their views with good facts and data. You should apply the same standard to yourself.

     How, in a blog like this, could I show how much I really, really loved her and cared for her, and that she was the woman of my dreams. I could list all the places we traveled to, all the kind things I did for her, all the things I paid for and all the help I gave to her elderly parents. But I’m sure you would just say that I’m just giving one side of the story, and that I’m leaving out the part where I was expecting her to be my slave.
     Remember, you are here because you have failed at finding and keeping that one special guy. Isn’t that what the title of this topic is all about? I happen to agree with Evan on many of his relationship ideas and conclusions. And I’m just relating my own dating experience to support Evan’s relationship advice.

147. Evan Marc Katz 147

     I’m 100% on Jonathan’s side, BTW.

     All the regular posters who are reading into his words and projecting qualities onto him need to assess why you’re immediately mistrustful of him.

     Is it because he (gasp!) blamed his girlfriend for not making him feel important? Does that touch a raw nerve with you? If it does, then good. Jonathan is completely echoing everything I say here.

     And it makes my “skin crawl” when I see bright, decent, relationship-oriented men attacked on this blog.

148. Diana 148

     To Jonathan, first, I want to thank you as a member of our society for your hard work and dedication to a profession that I am assuming you are very passionate about. It takes individuals such as yourself to make sacrifices that many others either cannot or will not do.
      
     While I believe it takes a special woman to be a loving, supportive wife of a doctor who isn’t merely playing the part for the sake of money, prestige, and the finer things in life, it has to be hard for that woman when she feels like she’s only a priority in their life AFTER their first priority in life is over for the week. And then when they’re ready to relax and unwind, she has to kind of switch gears and move from making a full life of her own, while pursue their dream, to they’re home and she has to focus solely on their needs now. Rather than having a life and a marriage that feels like two worlds meshed together fairly effortlessly, it might feel more like wearing different hats and turning something off, while turning something on. I’m not quite sure how to explain it. There’s an awkwardness; a break that never fully mends.
      
     If she doesn’t create a life of her own, while they’re burning hundreds of midnight hours, then she might suffer in ways that they cannot fully understand or appreciate, and this life may feel like it’s clashing with their needs, too, that their career cannot fulfill.
      

     While you know how it feels to not be the priority of someone’s life when you need them most, something tells me she felt the same way, at least at certain times. And since you have shared a bit more information with us, I sense there’s more to this story then emotional needs not met, although I do believe this is the biggest issue all relationships face.
      
     Life isn’t easy. Sacrifices come with a price. I wish you well, Jonathan.

149. Jonathan 149

     Thanks Evan for the support, I appreciate it.

     @Goldie145, I’m hardly mean to my ex. In fact, these days, we are quite good friends. Also, she followed my advice and she is happy with her wealthy MBA boyfriend.

     It’s too bad you think that I was mean to my ex. But like Helen, you make things up out of nothing. I guess by trying to be discreet, I’ve given the wrong impression of what kind of guy I am.

     I could give lots of details about that relationship. It would take pages and pages of space and would make for exciting reading– and endless criticism. But this blog or any blog isn’t the right place to discuss details about my failed relationship. Too much is lost in translation and misinterpreted. And my ex isn’t here to give her side of things, and so it wouldn’t be fair to her.

     However, if anyone wanted to ask me specific questions about what an educated, successful, active, high income single guy has to say about dating, I’d be happy to respond. But I think I’d be stepping onto Evan’s turf. Plus, he is a relationship expert, and I’m not. And I pretty much disclosed many of my views in post #139. Also, I live in the Pacific Northwest where there is a surplus of active, single, educated guys, so the girls here don’t have to work hard to find a guy. Except the picky ones. And they don’t want to work hard at it.

     But I do know where all the tall, dark, handsome, smart, sexy, relationship oriented men are…but I’m not telling. 

     This blog is a great forum, and I think Evan’s advice is right on. If any woman here takes it to heart, she’ll soon find herself in much happier and fulfilling relationships.

      

150. Ruby 150

     Jonathan isn’t necessarily a selfish partner because he works 60-80 hours a week, but I think that woman have to realize that while a man who works all the time may earn a fabulous income, he won’t have the time to spend with them that someone who makes less would have. It’s a trade-off, and a partner who works that much might not be the best companion. 

151. Helen 151

     Jonathan, the math alone makes it clear. I quote from you:

     “You also write, “…it’s clear that you don’t make HER the most important thing in your life”.
     “Where is that clear? Again, you have no idea of the particulars of the relationship. You are just reading between the lines and making things up. Apparently you think a successful hardworking man can’t make his girlfriend his priority outside of work.”

     Interesting little qualifier at the end there. “Outside of work”?  Seriously? The point is that work is SO much more a priority for you that a relationship cannot even come close, from a pure time standpoint.

     Let’s do the math. There are 168 hours in a week, of which you work, say, 80 and sleep 60: 140 hours gone.  That leaves 28 hours in the week, during which you still have to eat, shower, and do the activities you mention.  Some hours are lost to commuting. Whether or not the numbers are rounded, you get my drift.  For a woman to be a priority in such a schedule is cold comfort indeed.

     I’m not blaming you for your work choices. Nor am I blaming you if you happen to put work as the priority above other things (which, it sounds from the sheer time devotion you admit, is the case).  What is concerning is that you think that a woman who is in a relationship with you should put up with your being absent nearly all the time, and then automatically turn into a nurturing, devoted soul during the few hours you ARE around. 

     Diana got it right.  Women can’t just turn on and off the nurturing switch like that, especially if they’re resentful that they never get to see hubby or constantly have to shoulder the burden of housework and childcare. What about fairness? What about her own needs and ambitions? If you’re almost never around, of course she’ll build a life of her own, whether she wants to or not. She can’t just put that aside whenever you want her to.

     Nor can she count on you to support her during all the times she will need support. That kind of thing can’t be scheduled in around such a hectic work schedule.

     Why should a woman make you a priority in her life if you aren’t with her enough hours to be a priority?   

152. Gem 152

     Jonathan,

     I also know what it is like to have a really great connection on all levels with someone but never feel like a priority. And you’re right, feeling like a priority is about support, patience, empathy, compassion, fun, playfulness. I don’t see what was so offensive in your post…

     I’m dating a very successful lawyer right now and sometimes wonder if am in his league. I’m smart, witty, perceptive, attractive, younger (I’m sure that has something to do with it but I don’t have a high-power career. I make a comfortable middle-class income. His job is intense, mine is easy going. He’s high strung, I’m laid back.

     When he tells me that I make him feel so good, and he loves being with me, and I make him smile and laugh, I remember Evan’s words. He’s not looking for a colleague, he’s looking for a romantic partner who’s his compliment.

153. Helen 153

     Also, Jonathan wrote:
     “Remember, you are here because you have failed at finding and keeping that one special guy.”

     Was that intended for me? I’m delighted to tell you I’ve been happily married to my one special guy for 13 years.  Even if it was intended for some other women here, well, you’re every bit as single as they are.  It’s nothing to be ashamed of.  But that doesn’t make them more needy of advice than you.

154. Zaq 154

     Jonathan

     It seems the women on this blog are very quick to misinterpret what you say, and go on the attack. Reading your initial post, there is no way that anyone should be able to draw the conclusion that your ex gf was not a priority in your life.

     Women claim to want to know what men want, and when you tell them, they don’t seem to want to hear. Men want nurturing supportive women.

     However there are practicalities that they have brought up which are relevant to your situation. I know someone who is married to a tall, dark, handsome, active and extremely wealthy guy. A man all women want. Most women on the planet would want to swap places with her.

     But here’s the thing, he doesn’t come home at all during the week. She only sees him at weekends. She stays at home looking after the children and she is very very lonely. She is now the wrong side of 40 and he is no doubt surrounded by younger more attractive females, some of whom may think him fair game. She is no doubt insecure.

     She is devoted to him, but I can’t  help feeling that the price she is paying for  this lifestyle is too high (she  may not agree). I can’t even imagine a man putting up with that.

     So Jonathan you are right to desire a supportive partner, but be aware that they may be required to make a significant sacrifice to have you.    

      

155. Gem 155

     Helen,

     My father was a millwright for Ford Motor Co. He may have not been a doctor but he put in crazy hours for much of my childhood as many in skilled trades do.

     People CAN make their partner feel like a priority even when they aren’t always in the room. And yes, it takes an independent woman to be in a relationship with a  man who works double what most do, but if she signs up for it, and he does make her feel loved, appreciated, a priority, valued, then she should be able to do the same without being resentful.

     Otherwise, she needs to find a 9 to 5er. Being resentful of lack of time is not an automatic default of a woman in a relationship with such a man. My mother was never resentful. She was grateful that he worked so hard for his family. She always supported him and placed him first in her life. She did everything she could to make his life easier when he was home because he worked so often.

     In return, he treated her like his queen. It’s a two way street and with the right combination, two people can put the other first whether there are huge job requirements or not.

     Is Jonathan not deserving of a partner who makes him a priority because he works a lot????? NO! He just needs the right fit and the right combination, and this gal wasn’t it.

     He couldn’t have been so bad if she still wants to be friends with him

156. Gem 156

     And another thing, lol…

     Women CAN turn on and off the nurturing switch. We do it for our children, our friends, our family all the time.

     Why can’t we do it for our man?

157. Goldie 157

     @ Jonathan #149
      
     “It’s too bad you think that I was mean to my ex. But like Helen, you make things up out of nothing. I guess by trying to be discreet, I’ve given the wrong impression of what kind of guy I am.”
      
     You’re right, I don’t know you or your ex. I can only go by what you’ve said here. Only thing you shared was how your ex called you when she was at an all-time low in her life, asked for advice, and you responded with a snarky comment. I had no other information to go on. Maybe the rest of the conversation was all butterflies and rainbows. I have no idea.
      
     Also, I don’t know if this is necessarily a bad thing (#146): “She had spent thousands of dollars keeping an old dog alive.” Unless the dog is in a lot of pain and suffering from a terminal disease, this may be a good way to spend money in my opinion. (FTR, I have a dog, and two children who grew up with the dog.) Her new BF seems to be cool with that, too, I guess, since she (and the dog?) have moved in with him and are doing great together. Either way, if this is the most wasteful thing she’s done in her life, she sounds like a great person!
      
     Maybe you two just didn’t agree on too many things like this one, and therefore were not a good match. Not his fault, not your fault, you two are just not right for each other, that’s all. Sharing political views and hobbies is a great place to start, but there’s more to a successful relationship. I like Diana’s comment in that regard. Nothing wrong with working long hours and invest all of yourself into your work – I actually like that in a man. But you’ve got to respect the other person’s need to have a life of their own, too, just like you do. Sounds like a good area for compromise to me. She puts up with you not being home for 60-80 hrs/week plus commute, and in return you put up with her having her own career, hobbies etc.
      
     “Remember, you are here because you have failed at finding and keeping that one special guy.”
      
     Um, I was married for 18 years, together for 22, and my ex did not want me to leave. What about you?
      
     I’m here to learn how dating works, since last I’d dated before meeting my (now-ex) husband was in 1987. Some of the advice I’ve read in the blog posts and comments has helped tremendously; but much of what I read in the comments does not apply to me, because we’re all different, and what works for one of us, doesn’t work for the other. Hope this addresses the concern you seem to have about a few of us here
      
      
      
      

158. Goldie 158

     @ Gem #155, my father was a draftsman/designer, had several patents to his name, managed 70 people etc etc. I don’t remember seeing him home before nine PM on weekdays. He was out working most weekends. Almost every year, he’d have to cut his vacation short to go back to work. When he retired, he had accumulated over six months of unused vacation.
      
     But. My mother had a career of her own, managed a group of five people, went to training classes for her work on a regular basis, traveled all around the country on business. She also spent time with her best girlfriend, and they would often go take a train to a big city two hours away, to see a play together. I do not ever remember my father complaining about any of that. And, in the few hours a week that he was home, he was the best husband and dad you’ll ever see. I can count on my one hand the number of hours per week that our TV was on. We were always out doing something together as a family.
      
     In other words, there was mutual support in our family, not just some one-way “I work long hours, and you make me your top priority” thing. If truth be told, I don’t think my father would’ve liked it that way – I think he liked it that my mother was an equal partner. My parents celebrated their 47th anniversary this year, and have a great relationship. So, maybe, an example to follow?

159. Diana 159

     I wonder if Jonathan felt that she loved and care more for the dog than for him. I also wonder if Jonathan was a practicing physician when they first met or was it earlier, and as their independent lives took off, their relationship dynamics changed.
      
     Well, there’s always two sides to every story. Gem (#155) provided a good example of how what challenges one couple does not for another, though I think it was more common in years past. I would have relished being a stay-at-home mom.
      
     As for turning on and off the nurturing switch. I think a person is either nurturing or they’re not. A mom may appear to have turned on the nurturing switch when her child has a boo boo, but it’s her natural nurturing that causes her to care in the first place.

160. Dancing Faun 160

     Jonathan. This is why the gals on here are giving you a hard time. You say:

     “I’m a physician, single and enjoy reading this blog.”

     “He has an MBA and is very successful.”

     “Also, she followed my advice and she is happy with her wealthy MBA boyfriend.”

     “However, if anyone wanted to ask me specific questions about what an educated, successful, active, high income single guy has to say about dating, I’d be happy to respond.”

     Reeks of ”I’m better than you” and “I know more than you” and “I’m really into prestige” and “You’d be lucky to have me.”  Since this is the stuff you lead with, a lot of people are going to assume that you aren’t so understanding or generous in relationship. You seem very focused on status–especially your own. And while you may have the career creds, you don’t have the relationship creds. So you’re no better than any other seeker in that regard.

     Met up recently with a friend I haven’t seen since high school. We were catching up, and when she got to the part about her career she lowered her voice (involuntarily) to say that she’d earned her PhD in a very demanding medical discipline at Harvard. I thought that soft-pedaling was just so great and cool. She’s ass’t dean at a very prestigious medical school. But that’s a sign of how accomplished she is–she doesn’t have to impress strangers in a restaurant. Or on a blog. 
      

161. Helen 161

     Dancing Faun 160 and Goldie 158: Amen. Dancing Faun, your comment had me chuckling.

     Goldie 158: “In other words, there was mutual support in our family, not just some one-way ‘I work long hours, and you make me your top priority’ thing.”

     Exactly. Couldn’t have said it better myself.  Women today tend not to settle for that attitude in men, regardless of how smart, strong, or successful they are.  I would add that it goes both ways.  I also don’t think it’s okay for a woman to work 80+ hours/wk and then expect her man to spend all his time nurturing her the few hours she’s at home. Thankfully, I haven’t heard any woman express that viewpoint, either on this blog or in real life.

162. Ruby 162

     Jonathan #146

     <<Remember, you are here because you have failed at finding and keeping that one special guy.>>

     We certainly could flip that and say the same thing about you, since you state that your ex was the “woman of your dreams”. I am confused when you talk about how great you two got along, but still say that she didn’t nurture you enough.

     The woman lost her job, her home, her money, and a beloved pet, and you tell her to make her boyfriend the most important thing in her life? How about making herself the most important thing, so that she could get back on her feet without relying on a wealthy boyfriend? 

163. Gem 163

     Goldie and Diana,

     My mother worked full time too.

     It was not a one-way support system going toward my father. That was my point. They made each other and our family the priority. Period.

     Every couple is different but the point is that people are able and do make each other a priority no matter the amount of hours they work. I offer my parents as one example.

     I don’t know why people are assuming that Jonathan did not make his girlfriend his priority just because he works a lot.

164. Karl R 164

     Dancing Faun said: (#160)
     “[Johnathan's post] Reeks of ’I’m better than you’ and ‘I know more than you’ and ‘I’m really into prestige’ and ‘You’d be lucky to have me.’  Since this is the stuff you lead with, a lot of people are going to assume that you aren’t so understanding or generous in relationship. You seem very focused on status–especially your own. And while you may have the career creds, you don’t have the relationship creds.”

     Dancing Faun,
     I’ve read posts by dozens of women on this blog that lead off with the same things. They have an amazing education, a great career, a great income … and they claim that it’s unfair that they have to settle for a man who isn’t at least their equal.

     Evan tries to steer the women towards men who have “relationship creds” (i.e. they act like a boyfriend), but these women keep stating that they’re not attracted to those men.

     If Johnathan is tall, fit and attractive, then he’s everything they’re pursuing.

     Furthermore, he’s managed to stay on good terms with his ex-girlfriend. That suggests a fair degree of maturity towards relationships (for both of them). And he’s seeking a long-term relationship.

     If you want a man like him, you will have to accept his 60-80 hour work weeks. And you probably won’t feel like the number one priority in his life.

     Helen said: (#161)
     “Women today tend not to settle for that attitude in men, regardless of how smart, strong, or successful they are.”

     But there’s always more women holding out for a shot at a relationship with those same men.

     A few weeks ago I met a man (60-something), never married, intelligent, charismatic, very funny, retired from a career in television. He openly admitted that he’d never been married because he was difficult to live with.

     No trouble attracting women though.

165. Diana 165

     Gem, I didn’t assume that Jonathan didn’t make his girlfriend a priority. I believe he did in the best way that he knew how. I simply tried to explain (or add food for thought) what might be the situation (and thus, the explanation) for what someone in his shoes might experience. My thoughts were based, in part, on his comment that he made her a priority outside of work rather than stating he made her the priority in his life, like the way your parents did for each other and your family, despite their working lives.
      
     I have been in many different situations throughout my life. I know what it feels like to make personal sacrifices for the greater good, if you will, and I wouldn’t have changed a thing because I shared in their dream, too, and supported it every step of the way. I knew that at the end of each day or deployment, we still had each other which was always our first priority and we never failed to share in that. It was this bond that kept us going and helped us get through.
      
     Without knowing much more, I would say that Jonathan and his ex-girlfriend were not right for each other (I know I am stating the obvious ), but I hope that he can also step back and learn from his experience and see the role that he also played. That’s not intended to sound like blame; more like the personal growth that we each must allow ourselves to embrace and go through, in order to have what we truly dream of.

166. Helen 166

     Karl R, I don’t think your comments refute mine, or are even relevant.

     Your acquaintance may have no trouble attracting women who equally do not want to get married, and since he doesn’t want to either, it’s a wash. But Jonathan said he wanted to get married. Not only that, but your acquaintance is retired, so no 80+ hour workweek for either party to worry about.  There’s no analogy here.

     As to your comments to Dancing Faun: she didn’t say she wanted a man like him. If anything, she insinuated that she didn’t. So, not too sure what the relevance of the response was there either.   

     “But there’s always more women holding out for a shot at a relationship with those same men.” 

     You’re into statistics. What is your statistical proof of your statement above? But even if you do find it, it probably isn’t relevant. The point is that he isn’t married now, period. Even though he says he wants to be. 

167. Helen 167

     Ruby #162: YES!  Thank you for pointing that out.  Something about that whole aspect of the exchange seemed completely wrong to me too, and you put your finger on what it was.  The current arrangement is not optimal for either her or the guy, really.  He’s very kind to house her for now, but she should work to get back on her own feet: find a new job and a new home.

168. Ruby 168

     Karl R #164

     <<A few weeks ago I met a man (60-something), never married, intelligent, charismatic, very funny, retired from a career in television. He openly admitted that he’d never been married because he was difficult to live with.

     No trouble attracting women though.>>

     I’m not sure what this proves. I can think of a few married people who are plenty difficult to live with. Their partners tolerate them, while behind their backs other people wonder how they put up with their spouse. 

169. Soul 169

     I am a woman; I have been reading Evan’s post for a while now, but it is the first time I have felt compelled to write. 

     My feeling is that there a too many angry women on this blog. I do not know whether you are strong, successful and pretty, but you certainly SOUND angry at life, angry at men, and I doubt that it FEELS  good to be around you guys.

     Gosh even I would not want to have to argue all the time so as to prove a minor point to my argument… to repeat several times that you have misread my comments and my intentions… that there might be more to the story tan what meets the eye etc.

     To win my argument, I could probably tell you guys that having been married for 13 or 18 yrs does not prove anything about how your husbands FELT during all those yrs. But I do no know about that, it is mean, picky and and it does not add anything meaningful to the debate…As for this “what is your statistical proof of your statement above?”…WHAT A NAG !!! Who wants to interact with people like that?! 

     Anyway that was my two-cents. I will probably be attacked because of what I said, or because my English is not perfect; I am a foreigner with an american PhD (in econometrics/statistics). 

     PS: Evan, keep up the good work! I am learn a lot and I like your straight-forward way of saying things. 
     PPS: all the men on this blog, (jaq, KArl R, Steve, jonathan hunter….THANK YOU VERY MUCH for taking the time to comment and help us on the different subjects! I am learning a lot, and I love to be reminded that there are intelligent and relationship-oriented men around!

170. Zaq 170

     So how can you attract the right guy?

     I think Karl is spot on.
     Gem stated “I’m smart, witty, perceptive, attractive, younger”
     Any men respond with negative ‘dont like your attitude’ comments.
     That will be none. Yet women want to find fault with Jonathan

     I would think that most men here would  accept Gem’s description as an accurate representation, and that she possesses  many of those characteristics that men truly value.
     Jonathan also possesses characteristics that women highly desire and of course is right to point that out.

     They are both saying here is my value – show me yours. This is the equity theory of love, look it up. Insecurity is caused by having to measure ones own level of attractiveness against someone of higher value. Women wouldn’t have such a problem if they didn’t  set their stall out to get men out of their league.

     So, how can you attract the ‘right’ guy ? For women it is very very simple. You are what you attract. Most of you will have some men who find you attractive. Say YES to one of them. Sorted.

     The ‘right’ guy will never be a man who does not value you, let alone those who do not acknowledge your existence.  

      

171. Dancing Faun 171

     Karl@164: Why would I want a guy like Jonathan? (No offense, Jonathan. Plenty of fish in the sea.) And who cares about all the women who lead with their work creds? I don’t do that. My screen name is Dancing Faun, for gosh sakes.

172. Goldie 172

     Come to think of it, I wouldn’t want to be anyone’s number one priority in life – that’s too much pressure on me when someone’s life revolves around me.
      
     Likewise, I would have a very hard time making someone my top priority in life, unless they’re very young children and cannot function without me. I’ll be loyal to a guy, I’ll be supportive, I’ll be his close friend and confidant, I’ll make sure he’s happy with me, but I’m going to have a life outside of him and will expect him to have the same.
      
     Then again, I already said it – I’m probably not good for the extreme alpha types. It’s like they and I speak different languages. Fortunately, there appear to be plenty of men in my age/social group that I do click with, and have the similar outlook on life. This is probably even more true of generations Y and M. From what I see, they seem to have a more egalitarian approach than the older generations do.
      
      

173. Karl R 173

     Helen said: (#166)
     “Your acquaintance may have no trouble attracting women who equally do not want to get married, and since he doesn’t want to either, it’s a wash.”

     Are you under the weather this week? Normally your reading comprehension is better.

     I said, “He openly admitted that he’d never been married because he was difficult to live with.”

     Where does it say that he did not want to get married? Where does it say that his ex-girlfriends did not want to get married?

     Would you like to bet that he discovered that he was difficult to live with by repeatedly having difficulty living with the women he was serious with?

     Helen said: (#166)
     “Not only that, but your acquaintance is retired, so no 80+ hour workweek”

     No 80+ hour workweek anymore. Several decades of employment, a few years of retirement … which do you think had more impact on his “never married” status?

     Helen said: (#166)
     “What is your statistical proof of your statement [that there are always women lining up to date a successful man] above?”

     For my acquaintance, visual observation. Women flocked to him.

     For someone like Johnathan, try reading a blog by Evan Marc Katz. There are entire threads dedicated to the topic. There are hundreds, maybe even thousands of anecdotal examples of women who won’t settle for anything less, women who are trying to pursue that type of man even when he’s clearly not interested….

     Scroll up to (#75). Read it carefully.

     And if Johnathan were to post on a blog like that, he’d be speaking directly to the women who were looking for a man like him.

     Oh look … that’s exactly what he did.

     Helen said: (#166)
     “As to your comments to Dancing Faun: she didn’t say she wanted a man like him. If anything, she insinuated that she didn’t.”

     Dancing Faun’s comments were made after Johnathan’s were. There are lots of women on this blog. Do you think she was the target audience? Do you think you were?

     Johnathan’s comments were directed toward (and appropriate to) the women who want an educated, successful, well-off man.

174. Helen 174

     Karl R 173, none of your comments here address the point that your earlier set of comments was irrelevant.
      
     If he’s really the type that you claim that many women want, and HE wants a relationship but doesn’t have one, then something is clearly wrong with the picture. While I certainly can’t say what exactly it is, I would suggest that it has some part to do with the attitudes expressed in 139.  Sayanta’s skin wasn’t crawling for nothing.

175. Helen 175

     Soul 169, you’re the one who sounds angry, which is actually pretty funny.

176. Dancing Faun 176

     Karl@164: “Evan tries to steer the women towards men who have “relationship creds” (i.e. they act like a boyfriend), but these women keep stating that they’re not attracted to those men.”

     I don’t read all that often, but I haven’t read any scenarios on here where the women say they aren’t attracted to good boyfriend behavior or guys with relationship creds. Mostly it seems to be that women are with bad boyfriends/non-boyfriends and Evan points that out. Haven’t read “he is such a great guy, you dummy–stay with him!” on here. But maybe I missed something.

     “If Johnathan is tall, fit and attractive, then he’s everything they’re pursuing.”

     Again, in the little bit of time I’ve been reading on here, I don’t hear the women on here saying that they are pursuing tall, fit, attractive men. The opposite, in fact. Haven’t read ever “He was everything I’ve been pursuing–tall, fit, attractive–and a doctor!”

     “If you want a man like him, you will have to accept his 60-80 hour work weeks. And you probably won’t feel like the number one priority in his life.”

     Wow. Thanks for setting me straight on that. I was, like, not really getting that.

177. Goldie 177

     @ Karl #173,
      
     I went back and re-read #139, and you’re right, that comment is exactly in line with Evan’s post. Basically my feeling after reading this was “looks like this kind of guy is not for me, I can’t handle that”. I can understand the man working long hours at a stressful job, and therefore needing to be taken care of every which way during the few short hours when he happens to be home. That was my impression upon reading the post – that a man like that is almost never home, but, when he is, the woman needs to drop everything, be there, and take care of his every need. (And was there something in the subsequent post about him buying her things in return, and offering other kinds of financial help?) Nothing wrong with that. This is an absolutely legitimate type of relationship that a lot of people have. It just wouldn’t work for the type of person that I am. Which is why I don’t go for the super alpha/CEO type of men in the first place.
      
     You lose me though, at “Johnathan’s comments were directed toward (and appropriate to) the women who want an educated, successful, well-off man.” What, like the rest of us want an uneducated, unemployed man? There are plenty of nice, fun, financially stable guys with a good education. Maybe they don’t run worldwide corporations, but they’re successful enough.
      
     @ #169:
      
     “As for this “what is your statistical proof of your statement above?”…WHAT A NAG !!! Who wants to interact with people like that?! “
      
     Well the way I see it, there’s a time and a place for everything. While on a date chatting with a guy, it is definitely more appropriate to bat your eyelashes and say things like “wow, this is really insightful, tell me more!” (c) South Park. And I mean it – I do say those things on dates – and I actually mean them at the moment.
      
     However in a discussion, comments like “what is your statistical proof?” would be a better use of bandwidth than “wow, really insightful” or “LOL, ITA”, as they would better serve the purpose of the discussion.

178. Dancing Faun 178

     More on the dread post @139, since the thread’s become all about Jonathan now:

     “But she never figured out that what I wanted in a long term relationship was someone to support me in my life outside of work.”

     This is what everyone wants in a long-term relationship. ??? 

     “To be my compliment.”

     I hope you mean “complement.” Otherwise it sounds like she’s a reward for a job well done. But maybe you weren’t her complement. Which is, you know, the other part of the equation.

179. Dancing Faun 179

     Zaq@154: “Women claim to want to know what men want, and when you tell them, they don’t seem to want to hear. Men want nurturing supportive women.”

     Let’s flip it for you, Jonathan, and the other guys:

     “Men claim to want to know what women want, and when you tell them, they don’t seem to want to hear. Women want nurturing supportive men.”

     Actually, I take part of this back. You don’t ever really hear men on this blog asking what women want. You do get a lot of men telling women what men want, though.

180. Evan Marc Katz 180

     @Dancing Faun – I’m trying to stay above this fray, but I will simply point out to you that this is a blog written for women who are struggling in relationships who want to better understand men. As such, the men who are here telling women what we want are providing the same kind of service that I’m attempting to provide. You can ignore me and you can ignore them, but then you’re really not listening.

     If this were a blog for men who wanted to learn more about how to understand women, your point would be well-taken.

181. Helen 181

     I’m wondering if all of this doesn’t boil back down to one of Evan’s implicit points from earlier: stereotypically “alpha” women should seriously consider stereotypically “beta” men as life partners.  How else are we going to get around all the multiple topics of complementarity, work schedules, actual family income, fairness, etc.?
      
     I believe it’s likely that we will soon see this switch in society: that women at the top will start to choose these types of men rather than holding out for stereotypical alpha men.  It is a natural consequence of women having more opportunities today and rising ever more to the top.  I’m already seeing evidence of this where I work (several top women marrying men who become stay-at-home dads and dads who have more flexible hours and spend more time with kids), and there will probably be a tipping point at which the old stereotype will be overturned altogether.

182. nathan 182

     “Men claim to want to know what women want, and when you tell them, they don’t seem to want to hear. Women want nurturing supportive men.”
      
     Actually, Dancing Faun,I have heard everything under the sun when it comes to what women want. For every woman who says she wants a nurturer, there’s another who wants a strong, nonsense guy. For every woman who says they want an equal partnership, there’s another who says she wants a man to take charge. For every woman who isn’t concerned about a man’s career and salary, there’s another who is obsessed with both. On this very blog, I have witnessed women writing what seems like an impossible combination of attributes. Wanting a power-driven, take charge, financially well off, manly man who also is sensitive, nurturing, supportive, always there for her, would be a good father, and the list goes on and on.
      
     Anyway, the way I see it, it’s better not to assume anything based on gender. And when I’m dating someone, I have learned to have those conversations about “what you want out of a relationship” and to aim towards specifics. 
      
     But as for this blog, given it’s focus, I don’t tend to ask such questions unless there’s a scenario being posed where such questions are appropriate. And maybe you haven’t noticed, but there are literally hundreds of blogs written by women out there that any man could go to and learn, either directly or indirectly, what some women want. Women far outnumber men when it comes to relationship blogs. Which is why I write my own, and also why I enjoy coming to Evan’s blog.

183. Goldie 183

     @ Nathan:
      
     “Anyway, the way I see it, it’s better not to assume anything based on gender. And when I’m dating someone, I have learned to have those conversations about “what you want out of a relationship” and to aim towards specifics. ”
      
     You are my hero for posting this (esp. the bold). Also, I didn’t know you had a blog! Will definitely check it out.

184. Helen 184

     nathan 182: aside from all the nuances you mention about what women want (which are all true), we’re often confounded by the fact that sometimes we don’t know what we want. Or, we think we want a certain type, and then someone walks into our lives who is nothing like that image but turns out to be perfect for us.  So yes, there shouldn’t be stereotyping by gender. What’s more important is taking every individual for who he or she is.

     Maybe now I’m taking what you said too far, but I predict in another 50+ years, we really will choose who the most appropriate person is for an LTR regardless of GENDER.  Some are already doing that now (e.g., Ms Bee who has been posting in another thread), but it’s still far from the norm. So if Evan is still giving advice then, the title may not say “attract and keep the right guy,” but “attract and keep the right person.” The same advice above still holds: complement, not clone.

185. Saint Stephen 185

     Hey!! what’s all the attack on Jonathan for? Going by the topic of this post I’m yet to see what wrong he said. If is by how he described himself, hundreds of ladies had been doing it both in this and other threads without guys taking cognizance of it, and if it wasn’t for Karl R that pointed it out I’m sure many men still wouldn’t have noticed. “Still Looking” was also a victim of Jonathan’s case in another thread where he roundly got attacked by the ladies and was quickly labelled a smug.

     Mostly the attitudes expressed by the ladies commenting in this thread only portrays that of criticism, anger and combativeness. Which is exactly what Evan had been talking about. That is not an attitude that men find enticing in a woman they want for a spouse, rather they find it off-putting.

     And for the fact that Jonathan’s girlfriend had the same problem in her second relationship simply means the problem wasn’t from Jonathan – and take note- when she took his advice her relationship with her current boyfriend started flourishing, which goes to show that what he wanted is what most men want from their girlfriend.

     Evan blog wasn’t dedicated to battle of the Sexes, but for helping women understand men better… and as a successful relationship oriented man that would have made Jonathan a potential contributor to this thread.

     So far the only lady that appeared to me to have a distinguished personality from the others commenting here is “Gem” (She will make herself and a successful man happy in the long run), because she knows how to get her message across in a polite manner without sounding criticizing, Insultive or judgemental- take Nicole for example how she was casting aspersions on Zaq’s Mathematical knowledge.

     Good luck to you ladies when you finally succeed in scaring away all the successful relationship oriented men that are already contributing or willing to contribute, they will just keep what they have to say to themselves for fear of getting attacked- and then you will actually feel you have done a good service to other ladies that are willing to learn how they can attract and keep the right guy.

186. Dancing Faun 186

     EMK@180: Well, we have different ideas about how people speak when they are offering a service. Never got the impression that the guys on here are coming from that point of view. Whatever–it is what it is.

     Nathan@182: I have never once heard or read a woman say that she wants a man who is “power-driven” or to “take charge” or “always there” for her. Again, it comes down to language. Perhaps you do know women who speak like that. If not, then you are maybe interpreting what women say in your own way, with your own biases coming through.

     On the other hand, I’ve heard/read lots of women saying that they want a guy who is “supportive.” That would be a wide umbrella that a lot of their comments could fit under. How each person interprets “supportive” might be different, agreed. It could be emotional, physical, domestic, or financial support that a woman is looking for, and maybe some women want one type and not another.  

     Jonathan offers a good case in point. He’s looking for many types of support from a woman. In exchange he’s offering financial support and social status. Given the demands of his career, not sure what other kinds of support he can offer, seeing as by his own admission so much emotion and time and energy go to his patients. It’s a good deal for somebody, but not everybody. So the advice he offers to the women on this board is hardly universal.

     What it comes down to is that if I’m not interested in a guy for whatever reason, I’m not interested in his “feedback” on why he wouldn’t date or marry me. In fact, that feedback would be annoying because who cares what he thinks of me or of women in general and how valuable is that feedback. 

     But yeah–I’d care about the feedback from guys I am interested in. In my life it’s a more personal thing–I don’t date people by profession or by height or by other on-paper categories, and I’m not into guys who “take charge.” Definitely not the “little woman” type. None of this is going to change, I assure you. Guys really like me, too, so it seems to be working for me. Definitely into relationship, but I’ll get married or live with someone if and when it’s appropriate for me. 

187. Helen 187

     Dancing Faun 186: Actually, a few women have posted comments here (in this and other threads) saying they want a “take charge” man, even using those exact words. Of course, that provoked reactions in other women asking how they could want someone like that. So it just goes back to Nathan’s point – and your own for that matter – women all want different things, and there’s little point in generalizing.
      
     I completely agree with everything else you wrote. It’s not at all obvious to me that men commenting here do so with the intent of co-advising women. Some men are here because they enjoy debate, some are here because they want to spout frustrations upon women, and others are here to learn themselves.
      
     And I like you am not interested in advice from people whose lives I would not wish to follow, either as a professional or as a spouse (depending on the purpose of the advice).  I would add that it’s not just the raw advice that matters, but the way in which it’s communicated. I appreciate nathan’s points because he communicates them in a calm, introspective way. I appreciate Evan’s points because I get the sense that he really cares about women emotionally. Most of the time I appreciate Karl R’s points except the rare occasions that he’s snarky because he usually presents logical arguments. I do not appreciate or absorb “advice” given by men who are hostile, bitter, or obviously young and clueless about life.
      
     So men, if you really are here to advise us, think about the manner in which you do it. Works for relationships of all kinds, not just romantic.

188. Goldie 188

     @ Helen:
      
     “I believe it’s likely that we will soon see this switch in society: that women at the top will start to choose these types of men rather than holding out for stereotypical alpha men.”
      
     Yah, that seemed to be the point of Evan’s post, to me. An analogy just came to mind. I’m looking at new cars now, so I apologize, it’s about a car. Say a person wants a new Mercedes SUV. On the up side, it’s safe, it looks cool, and well I (the hypothetical “I”) just happen to like this type of car. On the down side, it is worth more than my annual salary, maintenance and repairs are expensive, and it gets 12 miles per gallon. Now there is nothing wrong with any of those things. As a buyer, I just have to weigh the pros and cons and decide for myself whether to me living with the cons is a worthwhile compromise to enjoy the pros. And maybe, to me, it is.
      
     @ St.Stephen, there is nothing wrong with Jonathan. It’s just that he is the Mercedes SUV. He wouldn’t work out for everybody. He is not for the faint of heart He’s a great guy who is also high maintenance. That’s all there is to it.
      
     @ DF:
      
     ” I have never once heard or read a woman say that she wants a man who is “power-driven” or to “take charge” or “always there” for her.”
      
     I have read this on this very thread. I’ve also heard my RL girlfriends comment on how they like their man to be the decision-maker.
      
     It takes all kinds to make the world go round. Which IMO is good. Otherwise we would all be fighting over the same tall, dark and handsome physician

189. nathan 189

     “What it comes down to is that if I’m not interested in a guy for whatever reason, I’m not interested in his “feedback” on why he wouldn’t date or marry me. In fact, that feedback would be annoying because who cares what he thinks of me or of women in general and how valuable is that feedback.”
      
     So, why are hanging around on a blog like this, if the only feedback of any kind you want is from men who you are interested in? Is this some kind of sociological experiment for you? Or just an opportunity to tear into some “clueless guys?” I don’t get it. You say whatever is you’re doing is working for you, you’re not one of the women (or men) in a good relationship offering advice about what worked for them, and you don’t seem to desire advice. 
      
     Anyway, whatever reason you like to read is fine. I read blogs all the time in ways that don’t fit the ways of most of the readers there. But I find myself confused by your passionate responses towards the guys here, given that it sounds like you’re doing just fine in the dating department.

190. Goldie 190

     @ Helen and DF:
      
     “And I like you am not interested in advice from people whose lives I would not wish to follow, either as a professional or as a spouse (depending on the purpose of the advice). “
      
     I actually am interested in reading relationship advice from anyone and everyone on this blog, for two reasons:
      
     1) My hobby, which I hope to take up more seriously one day, is writing. Anything new I learn about people is good material.
      
     2) I am still in the process of figuring out which types of people do and do not work for me. Hearing different types of men speak up on this blog, and share their viewpoints and expectations, helps tremendously in separating what will work for me from what won’t. It is also a lot more painless than getting involved with someone and finding out from personal experience that this kind of person would not be a good fit for me. (A creative, artistic, spontaneous type comes to mind – I am really attracted to those guys – but as I’ve learned, they can hurt you pretty badly without even knowing it. I’d rather read about something like that on a blog than experience the pain myself!)
      
     So, guys, feel free to share. We are listening We may not follow your advice because it may not apply to us, but we’re listening.

191. Dancing Faun 191

     Helen@187 and Goldie@188: I believe what you’re saying, but I still don’t see those words coming from women on here. Who says they want a “power-driven” guy? Or someone who is “always” there for them? I can imagine that someone would say they want a “take charge” kinda guy–but  not sure of the context. Meaning they want a guy who pursues, or a guy who knows what he wants out of life, or a bully? That’s why I say that Nathan’s comment seems about his interpretation of what these women are saying.

     When people post what the qualities that they’re looking for they see these qualities as positives, so they wouldn’t be using words that have such clear negative connotations. You might have a few women who say things like “I want a guy who is always there for me”–but Nathan is presenting this way of speaking as being prevalent on here, and I still just don’t see it.  I can easily imagine, though, that that is Nathan’s (negative) interpretation of what a lot of women are saying. For instance, if a woman says she wants a guy who is 100% supportive of her life choices, he might be hearing “I want a guy who is always there for me.”  Different sentiments.

192. Dancing Faun 192

     Nathan: Back atcha. Why are you on a blog that’s for women and offering dating advice to women? That’s confusing to me. Is this some sociological experiment for you, or perhaps an opportunity to tear into some “clueless women”? Is that working for you? 

193. Helen 193

     Goldie 190, I suppose that’s true. You CAN learn something from everyone posting here – not necessarily for application in your own life, but so that you can get a sense of the panoply of human nature.
      
     I’m not sure that reading hard-earned advice on a blog will prevent you from experiencing the same pain in real life, though. I’ve had to learn the hard way, by experience, many times in life, despite having heard advice to the contrary. And now I see my own kids acting the same way, which is painful.  But hey, if I survived, so will they… hopefully.
      
     And 12 mpg is really sad, especially for such an expensive car. How about a hybrid or electric vehicle?

194. nathan 194

     Go back through the archives, Dancing Faun, and take a look at my comments as a whole. (I seem to be saying this a lot lately.) Anyway, you’re saying I’m making negative interpretations, when the reality is that I’m probably one of the most balanced male commenters on this blog. I call guys out on their crap, and women. And if I’m in the wrong on something, I revise my views in accord.
      
     You’re just stirring people up here, and also missing what people are actually saying because you’re too busy looking for a bone to pick. Helen and Goldie both make good points above, as did Ruby and Gem earlier. I frequently agree with women commenting on here, and I do my best to respectfully disagree when I disagree, so don’t even bother trying to paint me as some sort of hater or game player.
      
     As for why I’m here – because I learn plenty from the women who write in on Evan’s blog. Especially in terms of expanding my views on how the women I date might possibly be thinking. The more life experiences I hear about, as well as ways of thinking about those experiences, the easier it is for me to remain flexible and open about what I’m experiencing on dates. The most important point of my comment at 182, which you seem fixated on, is this:
      
     “I have heard everything under the sun when it comes to what women want.”
      
     And the same is true for men. But again, you’d rather fixate on a tiny section of that comment, say I’m full of negative interpretations, and then write a smug, evasive response to my question about why you’re here. Which is fine, but frankly just demonstrates more about you than anyone else leaving comments here.
      

195. Saint Stephen 195

     Nathan Said: (#182)
     Anyway, the way I see it, it’s better not to assume anything based on gender. And when I’m dating someone, I have learned to have those conversations about “what you want out of a relationship” and to aim towards specifics.
     I actually think Assumptions can be made based on gender. you wont hear any man saying i want a Successful hard-charging manly woman who can lead or take charge, quite on the contrary what you will notice from this blog is every Guy in corroboration to Evan advice unanimously echoing this is what we want- We guys all want a supportive/nurturing/loving woman.
     Which goes to show that any Woman can take Evan advice (pertaining guys) to the bank and would certainly not be misled.

     But when it comes to Women it is a complete different scenario.
     I recently stumbled on a lady’s blog giving relationship advice to men. She was advising the men that women are attracted to a hard-charging, leadership, take-control personalty/trait in men- she said that is why you see them getting attracted to jerks/alpha men all the time. 
     While some of the ladies in the comment section concurred with her, the others were seriously lambasting her for misleading the guys- telling her that they aren’t attracted to those attributes she mentioned.
     That was when me and the other guys concluded it was useless seeking relationship advice when it comes to women. Unlike men, every woman aren’t attracted to the same attributes in a man- as a Man it would serve you better if you just ask your “Date” straight up what qualities she likes or desires in her man.

     Bottom line- as a woman, you can take Evan relationship advice wholly.
     But if you are Man, seeking relationship advice from women will do you no Good- it will be much better/safer to just ask your Date. 

196. Erinlee 196

     Saint Stephen #195   I can understand where you are coming from with this last post.  Generally, men are better at knowing exactly what they want.  They are also better at expressing what they want.  Being a woman has a lot to do with wanting to please, I believe, and sometimes being assertive enough to say what I want is difficult, I don’t want to come off as needy or demanding.  It’s not a healthy habit and I’m working on it, but I will be much quicker to respond to a man’s needs than I will be in letting him know what I need.  I also agree that the ‘type’ of woman you described men want, is probably true for most.  It just cannot be that black and white though, there’s going to be differences and we are all going to sit in a little bit different spot on the scale. 

     Dancing Faun #186:  I do think women want a take charge man.  Maybe they feel awkward saying it, because they don’t want to be viewed as weak.  I know this is true of women because I am one of those women who wants a man that is a good leader.  That has nothing to do with my ability to lead.  Often times at work or in large groups when there is something to be accomplished, I will take on the role of the group leader and delegate tasks to others.  Someone has got to keep things running smoothly.  It’s just that, when it comes to a relationship, I don’t want to be the leader.  I want a man who TAKES CHARGE. 
          I think I’m somewhere right in the middle of the ‘dominance’ scale.  I switch modes depending on the situation (as I’m sure we all do) to whichever is more appropriate and will serve me best at the time.  When it comes to a romantic relationship, I see him leading the way.  I’m not looking for my equal, I’m looking for my compliment.  I don’t have to be the boss or be right or be better or just as good as him.  Being happy and seeing him happy is far more important to me than being ‘right’.  That’s my type of support.  I will follow and support you because I trust you to lead me in the right direction.  
          I, also, want a man who can show me tenderness and love in a way that I know he truly cares.  I have found that this is not a quality of a specific type of man, it is a quality that manifests itself in him when he is happy in the relationship and wants to give me what I need because I give him what he needs.  When I treat my man with respect, thank him for all his hard work, ask him for advice, take care of his needs, I find him bending over backward to make me a happy woman.  It’s going swimmingly, you must give if you wish to receive.  But you have to give what the man needs to be happy, you can’t give him what makes YOU happy, that’s looking too inward.  In return, he needs to figure out what makes you tick, not treat you how he wishes to be treated.  I have taken a deep interest in learning about relationships and how they work, this blog is a great way to take in a lot of people’s perspectives.  The more people’s perspectives you can take into consideration, the better chance for success.  It’s a pretty narrow frame of reference to only use your perspective. )

197. Margaret 197

     @ Evan #141

     Thank you. Case in point as to why I find liberal men hot. 

198. Ms. Bee 198

     I like this topic. There is a lot of good debate here. I don’t see why Jonathan’s post stirred rancor. I am in the same position he is – high-income, breadwinner, etc. – and I need a spouse who makes me a priority. My future spouse is great with this, as I mentioned upthread. Of course, I do not expect him to drop everything for my every need at all times. That’s not fair, because he has a life, and needs, and once he’s finished school, will have a career of his own to begin. But like Jonathan, I’ve had an ex (to be more accurate, several exes), who just did not think I was that important. I was “nice to have around,” but that was about it. They prioritized partying. Or video games. Or watching sports. Or just about anything except me. Hobbies are GREAT, and everyone should have at least one cool hobby. But if your hobbies or leisure pursuits take priority over me every single time, I show you the door with no regrets. (I know some of those exes are repeating these patterns with their new beaus, so I know that the only mistake I made in those relationships was dating those people to begin with.)
      
     Nathan and Helen are also among my favorite participants on here. I like how Helen provides insight from many angles, and I give major props to Nathan for providing alternative points of view, and pulling no punches calling people out when they’re being silly – regardless of gender. Other posters, too, continually contribute good insight and perspectives. This should not be a war here. There are guys and ladies on here who I don’t agree with, but I’m not writing off an entire gender because of a few people.
      
     On the subject of politics, I’ll just say that everyone has their biases and intolerances, and everyone needs to date someone who is compatible with them on major philosophies and attitudes. I’m a registered Independent, so I claim no major party affiliation, but in general, my views are economically moderate and extremely socially liberal. My views are compatible with many other political parties, and incompatible with several others. It’s important to me that I date someone who’s generally on the same page, but I am more economically conservative than my partner, for example, and we have no issue. Do what works for you, and don’t get hung up on people who don’t work for you or hope to change them. That’s just a recipe for anger and resentment.
      
     It’s great to visit this blog in the hopes of understanding perspectives that aren’t your own. Everyone has a different life experience and different perspectives that help shape their views on dating. Some commenters, from what I gather, are coming from a place where traditional values and gender roles dominate, so from what they’ve experienced or seen, men don’t want to date an assertive career woman, and someone like me will horrify and scare off all the relationship-oriented men. We would not be compatible as partners (or friends, if female), but I wish you success in finding whoever makes you happy. I just wish commenters would not presume that some women – simply because they do things differently – are miserably alone and scaring men off, even if we’ve in actuality been quite successful with men. But I’m willing to give them the benefit of the doubt – that they’ve never seen or experienced otherwise.
      
     Living in a Midwestern city, I have met literally hundreds of heterosexual men who prefer relationships where “who takes charge” switches off depending on need and situation, and have no issue with career women. Many of the guys in my city, also, are not Type A, career-focused, etc. (Jonathan linked to stats about how women are attending college and med school in record numbers), and are perhaps best complemented by women who are. They’re the men more attractive career women like myself should consider instead of crossing them off their lists with a bunch of exacting standards – though I know for sure that dating in New York is a different kettle of fish than dating in a medium-sized Midwestern city due to supply and demand, COL, and so on. I think also that whether you want kids or don’t can affect your choices. I never have, and have been surprised at how seldom it’s been an issue with men, but other women report different experiences.
      
     And lastly, some comments, in reply to points I found to be interesting:
     
     
     Erinlee wrote: Generally, men are better at knowing exactly what they want.  They are also better at expressing what they want.  Being a woman has a lot to do with wanting to please, I believe, and sometimes being assertive enough to say what I want is difficult, I don’t want to come off as needy or demanding. It’s not a healthy habit and I’m working on it, but I will be much quicker to respond to a man’s needs than I will be in letting him know what I need. 
      
     I have fallen into the “wanting to please” trap before, and at great cost to me. I think we are socialized to please and to always put others’ feelings before our own, even when doing so gets us into trouble. I was also raised by a certain family member who taught me that I must have no needs, as that person’s were always number one. I have combated it by coming to terms with the fact that it’s ok to assert myself, it’s ok to speak up when something’s not right – and if someone who wants something from me is acting funny or seems “off-kilter” (namely strangers, but others, also) it’s ok to politely exit the situation, thus putting myself first and someone else’s feelings second. But I hear you on this.

199. Jadafisk 199

     I don’t know about all men wanting the same kind of woman. I’ve heard many a “Mrs. ________” spoken in fear, exasperation, or anger. Many people can attest to having or dealing with someone else’s overbearing, controlling mother – these women ARE reproductively successful and/or married on a regular basis. Many of these women have several marriages beneath their belt – even when the behavior is extreme enough to be destructive to ultra long term relationships, they can still find someone else willing to try it with them again. There are men who either desire and/or are willing to spend the rest of their lives with (engaging in actions that are behaviorally indistinguishable from desire) aggressive, dominant women with middling to generally unappealing looks (just in case there’s a contention that these women have to be exceedingly attractive to get away with “alpha” behavior) out there. There’s what people say, and then there’s what people actually do.
      
     Many (traditional) women prefer men who are more dominant than themselves, but not a “man of steel, woman of tissue paper” scenario – an exceedingly soft woman may be sought after by extremely dominant men, but she often selects the man who’s dominant enough to make her feel safe from the world, but non-dominant enough to make her feel safe with him.

200. Joe 200

     Jadafisk: read Evan’s point #6 in post #16.  There will be a number of bitchy women who do get married (possibly multiple times) because there will always be guys who will put up with her bullshit.

201. Dancing Faun 201

     nathan@194: Sorry. I disagree with your assessment. My POV.

202. Saint Stephen 202

     @Erinlee (#196)
     You make good points- however i do not think your points are the genuine reason behind it.
     I would rather blame it on the women’s movement- Not every woman really flowed with the women’s movement. i guess that explains why women are yet to reach a consensus when it comes to the desired personality traits they want in their spouse. the progressives that flowed with the movement don’t have any problem settling with the beta males, but the traditional women who didn’t, are the one’s often holding out for their traditional alpha men- biology conflicting with evolution.
     By the way- i love your name- if i have a daughter, i’ll name her after you.:)

      Ms. Bee (#198)
      men don’t want to date an assertive career woman, and someone like me will horrify and scare off all the relationship-oriented men.
     Just to correct a wrong impression- Men like to date and aren’t scared of assertive career women. Men sometimes deliberately avoid them because they feel/assume that those women have lost touch of their feminine side- the loving/nurturing/supportive traits.
     Assertive career minded women who still managed to retain their feminine attributes find no problem getting dates/married all the time.

      Jadafisk (#199)
     I don’t know about all men wanting the same kind of woman.
     I never meant every man wanting the same kind of woman- rather i meant they desired the same nurturing/loving/supportive traits in a woman.
     Correct me if i’m wrong by pointing out any man on this blog or else where who said he needed otherwise from his spouse.
     given my current status if i happened to get married to Hillary Clinton and i wasn’t getting that loving/nurturing/support i need, Heaven knows i’ll have my eyes else where (ask Bill Clinton). 
     The moment a woman begins to loose her feminine traits, the man begins to feel like he’s having one of his fellow guys around. 
      

203. Annie 203

     Nathan: I knew a guy in a conflict resolution program who was all shocked that he didn’t get into a cretain high-profile PhD program. Why was he shocked? Because he thought that he had “more emotional intelligence” than any of the other candidates. Does that sound like something an emotionally intelligent person would say? I know another woman who would talk about how “generous” she was. Do you think she was? Exactly. If you have to tell us you’re “one of the most balanced” commentators on here…

     Saint Stephen: Don’t believe everything you read on blogs.

     Erinlee: When you get your ”take charge” guy, remember that that’s what you said you wanted.

204. nathan 204

     Stephen, the way I see it, one of the main reasons behind feminism and/or women’s liberation movements was and still is to liberate women (and men frankly) from consensus standards about how to be and act in this world. Those who frequently long for the past, and endlessly blame modern movements for the world’s troubles are really experiencing the loss of their privilege. Because if you didn’t fit the “consensus” gender mold in previous generations, you seriously suffered, and often were ostracized. Whereas if you did fit in or go along, you were constantly supported by the culture around you.  
      
     The reality, though, is that there has never, in the history of humankind, been a voluntary consensus around gender roles and attributes. There have been periods of fiercely forced consensus, but even then, you could find examples of people who didn’t go along with it. So, while I would agree that the modern dating scene is riddled with confusion, I don’t think that’s necessarily a bad thing, even for those who are “traditional” – a word that is virtually meaningless in my book, but which I’ll use to go along with how people are talking here. For all of us, the opportunity is more present to interact with potential partners as people, and not “types.” And that, in my view, can only be a positive.

205. Saint Stephen 205

     Nathan @(#204)
     Valid points- and well taking.
     Nontheless i would like to quickly point out that women’s movement was to liberate women, not men. 

     Those who frequently long for the past, and endlessly blame modern movements for the world’s troubles are really experiencing the loss of their privilege. Because if you didn’t fit the “consensus” gender mold in previous generations, you seriously suffered, and often were ostracized. Whereas if you did fit in or go along, you were constantly supported by the culture around you.  Most marriages still break up when the men stopped being the primary bread winner. everything you said are happening silently.    

206. Erinlee 206

     Saint Stephen~
        Don’t you think that not every man has followed the women’s movement either?  So these types of people with more traditional preferences for a relationship can still find each other?  Thanks for the name compliment, I’ll pass it along to my parents, since I can’t really take credit

     Annie~ 
        I’ve got my take charge man and he’s wonderful.  We’re both stubborn so we definitely butt heads on certain things but our ability to be straight forward and honest (avoid game playing, and avoid keeping things inside when they bother us) allows us to deal with issues in our relationship quickly instead of allowing them to fester.  If he wasn’t so bold, I would not feel comfortable being so honest with him about things he does that bother me.  I really appreciate his leadership skills, and have no problem handing over the reins.  He respects me and asks my opinion when he knows my knowledge could be valuable to him.  We recently purchased a fixer upper home together and he’s really handy with a lot of the projects involved.  If he hadn’t ‘taken charge’ we wouldn’t be nearly as far along as we are.  He’s a go getter in areas where I’m more laid back. He is quite capable of lighting a fire under me and I accomplish a lot more with his support.  If he wasn’t as straight forward and direct with me, I wouldn’t respect his opinion nearly as much as I do.  We don’t always agree, but when it comes to other people I back him up everytime, even if I don’t think he is right.  He’s one of the most ‘alpha’ like males I have ever dated in personality.  Somehow he’s managed to, for the most part, only display positive qualities I associate with an alpha personality.  He can be a little harsh sometimes when I don’t understand something but when I tell him it hurts he softens immediately.  I’m catching him off guard because where I quiet down and tell him softly how what he does affects me, is probably about where his ex would have yelled and the fight would have began.  I have NO DESIRE to fight or argue with my man.  Men are made for combat, women are not so why would I start a battle with someone whose trained for it?  However, there will no doubt be some times when it is appropriate for me to fight back.  When the time comes that I feel it is necessary to yell, I guarantee you he will know I’m serious, and actually hear what I have to say.  Instead of hearing ‘wah wah wah wah’ which is what I imagine a lot of guys hear when they get yelled at or chewed out a lot.  To each their own, it doesn’t matter what everyone else wants.  What matters is finding someone you can relate to the way you enjoy.  So Annie, I’m getting along with my go getter take charge man just fine.  Maybe you don’t like this type of person because you don’t know how to relate to them in a way that is positive for the two of you. 

207. Annie 207

     Erinlee: Whatever floats your boat. Sounds exhausting to me to have to manage someone like that all the time–his mood always setting the tone, having to “back him up” when I don’t want to, going along to get along.  

     I don’t believe that men are made for combat and women aren’t. I’m a pacifist and so is my boyfriend.

208. Ruby 208

     Nathan #204

     I would agree that you are easily one of the most balanced commentators here.

     St Stephen #205

     “Most marriages still break up when the men stopped being the primary bread winner.”

     That’s crazy. Marriages break up for all sorts of reasons. I’ve known of marriages breaking up simply because both partners grew apart over the course of many years. There are many explanations for Bill Clinton’s cheating, besides your assertion that Hilary didn’t nurture him enough! Plenty of politicians with wallflower wives have strayed because they are powerful men, and have the opportunity. 

209. Eljem 209

     Hi, I’m a long term reader and fan of this blog, who mostly lurks but occasionally comments. I’m a woman, and became single a couple of months ago.
      
     @ Annie #203
     I take your point about self-advertising, but, for what it’s worth, I do think Nathan is one of the most balanced commentators on this blog.
      
     @Nathan
     I genuinely like your approach – to the point that I recently tried out one of your suggestions from another post (to smile at a guy on public transport).

210. Annie 210

     Eljem@209: Yeah, it’s just weird when people go around telling you how you should perceive them. Patronizing. 

     To me ”balanced” means pointing out both sides of an argument without endorsing or agreeing with either. It isn’t a tone of voice. And self-promotion certainly indicates that one is invested in being perceived in a certain way. Which undermines the message of impartiality.

211. Helen 211

     Annie, given the tone you’ve adopted here toward Nathan and Erinlee as well as in the previous post debating with Katarina, I find it hard to buy your label of “pacifist.”  In each instance, your comments were essentially digging a stick into someone’s side – someone who hadn’t spoken out against you or anyone else. Meanwhile, nothing productive or insightful was gained in the effort. You just riled them up and forced them to defend themselves against senseless attacks. 

     I would expect differently from those who claim to be pacifists.  This attitude is more like a warhawk.

     Ms. Bee – thanks for your kind statements earlier. 

212. Erinlee 212

     Annie ~
        So if women are made for battle, then why are the majority of citizens that go to war men?  Not saying women aren’t fit, just saying that typically they aren’t made that way.  You started your reply to me with “whatever floats your boat” when I had previously ended mine with “to each their own”.  Isn’t this the same concept?  Wouldn’t you expect your man to “back you up” if needed?  I would certainly hope you can count on him for that!  Once again, it’s not about being right, it’s about being happy.  I’m sure you’re familiar with the song “Stand By Your Man”, this is the concept I’m talking about.  I wasn’t implying that he sets the tone with his mood or that it’s a struggle to ‘put up with him’.  I’m just saying that when we do cross opinions, we’ve figured out a great way to come to terms.  You say it sounds exhausting to manage a man like this.  I don’t have to manage him, remember?  He takes charge, he can manage himself.

213. Goldie 213

     Um, not to start a war, but Erinlee, this part of your comment bothers me a lot. Hope I misunderstand. I’ve had similar experiences in my past marriage. What do you mean by “he can be a little harsh”? Really hope it is not the same as what I experienced.
      
     “He can be a little harsh sometimes when I don’t understand something but when I tell him it hurts he softens immediately.  I’m catching him off guard because where I quiet down and tell him softly how what he does affects me”

214. nathan 214

     Annie: I can see why you would question what I said about being balanced. Actually, we have a different understanding of balanced. I see balanced as completely contextual. And in terms of this blog, there’s often this tension between men who write as if women are all the same way, and women who write as if men are all the same. When I speak of balance, it’s about presenting my views as best as I can without falling into generalized, blaming statements. And also trying to call those out arguments out which do.
      
     What you’re calling balanced, I would call being “neutral.” Or perhaps “objective.”
      
     As far as self-promotion and being patronizing goes, the few times I have asked people to look back at my comments on this blog have been times I have felt that a single comment was turned into a blanket condemnation or gross generalization. When I read the comments of regulars on here, I try and remember what else they’ve said in the past. To help place their words in context. (You see a theme?) It’s not always easy to remember much, obviously, but I make the effort to. So, the three or four times I have mentioned “being balanced” were responding to assumptions that I found totally baseless, and irritating as well. Perhaps I should have just let them go, but at those moments I didn’t.
      
      
      

215. Erinlee 215

     Goldie ~  A harsh tone of voice is all I meant.  No name calling or anything physical, not even close. 

216. Annie 216

     Helen@211: We’re opposed to war and violence. That’s what I mean by being a pacifist. It doesn’t mean that I don’t express views that are unpopular or point out things that seem to me fallacious or not thought out.

     For instance, I disagree with Erinlee’s comment that men are made for combat and trained for it. I believe that comment is not only fallacious but does a great disservice to the men who refuse to submit to this gender stereotype. These men I know personally, and I can also point to many men throughout history who have written about and promoted pacifism.

     So I say that this is a fallacious statement. You call that poking a stick in someone’s side–an aggressive act. I call it defending the truth. It could be that Erinlee does not know men like this. So perhaps my statement will open her mind to that possibility. That would be a service, in my view.

     Nathan asks Dancing Faun why she is on here, since she has no trouble attracting guys and the board is for women looking for relationship advice. He claims this is a balanced, fair question. She turns it around and uses his own words to ask him the same thing he asked her, since he is a guy, not a woman, but he calls this reversal a “smug, evasive response.” I thought it was a good response. And I can see by that example why she said earlier that he puts a negative twist on what women say. So I question how “balanced” he is, based on my understanding of the meaning of that word as it is usually accepted in matters of discourse. He responded that he uses the word differently. So be it.

     Where’s the stick?

217. Annie 217

     Erinlee@212: Somehow, I don’t think I need to respond to this one. Italics mine.

     Sometimes its hard to be a woman
     Giving all your love to just one man
     You’ll have bad times
     And he’ll have good times
     Doing things that you don’t understand
     But if you love him you’ll forgive him
     Even though he’s hard to understand
     And if you love him
     Oh be proud of him
     ‘Cause after all he’s just a man
     Stand by your man

218. Dancing Faun 218

     Annie@216: Exactly. So this is what I said earlier:

     “…I still don’t see those words coming from women on here. Who says they want a “power-driven” guy? Or someone who is “always” there for them? I can imagine that someone would say they want a “take charge” kinda guy–but  not sure of the context. Meaning they want a guy who pursues, or a guy who knows what he wants out of life, or a bully? That’s why I say that Nathan’s comment seems about his interpretation of what these women are saying.”

     Now that we’ve laid the “take charge” issue to rest, I believe, I still hold that women on here are not clamoring for “power-driven” guys or guys who are “always there” for them. I think some female posters have discussed what they want and that some guys on here twist that into the negative words as discussed.

219. nathan 219

     Annie, I fully admit that at the point you brought up during my exchange with Dancing Faun, I was quite irritated with her views and responded from that place. In other words, my response at that particular point wasn’t that skillful.
      
     I stand behind the rest of my comments, though, and in the end think this is just a derail. I thought suggesting that we’ve got different understandings of “balance,” just as there were two different senses of the word “pacifist” occurring, might help the conversation. It doesn’t seem to have done so.
      
     And so, think what you want. I’m dropping it.

220. Jennifer 220

     @ #219- Don’t worry Nathan, anyone that was ever inclined to understand your point already has. I know exactly what you meant by ‘balanced’. 

221. Saint Stephen 221

     Ruby (#208)
     We are both coming from different angles. i think you are coming from the angle of immediate cause, while i’m coming from that of remote cause.
     many complications could arise as a result of the man no longer able to maintain the position of the primary bread winner and that could lead to dissolution of the marriage.
     E.g- The woman may no longer feel feminine assuming she is made to bear the financial burden of the house, and as a result she is likely to lose attraction towards her spouse. We will all assume loss of attraction lead to the divorce- i’m coming from what lead to loss of attraction (i know couples lose attraction for other reasons, but this is one of them).    
     Ruby Said: (#208)
     Plenty of politicians with wallflower wives have strayed because they are powerful men, and have the opportunity.  
     Even Plenty of poor husbands do stray everyday. infact is more difficult for the wealthy and public figures to stray because they have a reputation to protect and could easily get caught.  
     and your assumptions of wallflower wives, that’s what you see on the outside. only those who wear the shoes knows where it itches them.

      Annie (#216)
     For instance, I disagree with Erinlee’s comment that men are made for combat and trained for it. I believe that comment is not only fallacious but does a great disservice to the men who refuse to submit to this gender stereotype. These men I know personally, and I can also point to many men throughout history who have written about and promoted pacifism. 
     I agree with Erinlee’s assertion that men are better suited for war because they are generally stronger, aggressive and more violent than women- if you doubt you can compare the ratio of men to women in prisons.
     Secondly when people stereotype on gender, they do that based on the majority, doesn’t necessarily say every one must be that way.

     Dancing Faun (#218)
     Dancing Faun #186:  I do think women want a take charge man.  Maybe they feel awkward saying it, because they don’t want to be viewed as weak.  I know this is true of women because I am one of those women who wants a man that is a good leader.  That has nothing to do with my ability to lead.  Often times at work or in large groups when there is something to be accomplished, I will take on the role of the group leader and delegate tasks to others.  Someone has got to keep things running smoothly.  It’s just that, when it comes to a relationship, I don’t want to be the leader.  I want a man who TAKES CHARGE. 
     Erinlee with other women used unambiguous comment in stating exactly the kind of man they want. perhaps you should stop trying to write a different meaning to their comment, just to prove your point. 
      

222. Gem 222

     I’m with you Erinlee! I’m attracted to the same type of man. Take charge. There is a difference between dominant and domineering. I’ve found a man similar to yours. With wonderful sweet qualities to balance the strong ones.

     Obviously, not all women are attracted to the same thing. I know some women who wouldn’t be happy unless their man was securely tucked under their thumb. It’s really unattractive to watch, but hey, different strokes.

223. Nicole 223

     @Nathan,
     I would call you balanced because you don’t ever write that all of the problems of the world began when women starting working and going to school rather than staying at home to push out somoene’s babies.  

     So that to me implies that you understand that the problems that people have in dating and relationships are not the fault of progress.  

     And loved your comment acknowledging the role that privilege plays in it all. Clearly, when women could not get jobs and weren’t well-educated, they didn’t have many options before, during, or after marriage.  A woman trapped in a bad marriage, couldn’t leave, and a woman trying to work was often turned away.  (I bristle reading stories from alumna of my school about what happened when they applied to grad school or even after they finished; we’re talking women with JDs or MDs who couldn’t get hired).  All doors pointed to getting a husband.  I’m not sure why people equate financial dependence with this idea that people were happier and less selfish.  

     At any rate, we all have different interpretations, but you don’t bash women (even though plenty of women here bash men) or progress, and that seems pretty balanced to me.   

224. Ruby 224

     Saint Stephen #221

     I’ve talked to many divorced people over the years, and I cannot think of any marriages I know of that have dissolved solely because the man lost his position as primary bread-winner. I think marriages break up for reasons that are much more complex.

225. Greg 225

     I agree with many of Nathan’s points regarding gender roles.  He is balanced.  There’s nothing wrong with women working or going to school.  But at the same time I believe to many women minimize the important role of childbearing.  Obviously children are not for everyone.  But strong healthy children are the next leaders and builders of great societies.  My mom has a masters degree, but she put our family first and I will be forever grateful to her for that.  Many men want a woman who will put her family first over her career.  Family is more important than climbing the corporate ladder.

226. Saint Stephen 226

     @Ruby (#224)
     I’ve also read in this and other blogs where women commented that they started feeling like the man in the relationship when they were made to bear the financial burden and consequently lost attraction towards their husbands.

227. Helen 227

     Greg 225: for those men who care so much about family, why don’t they themselves consider putting family over their own careers?  Why marry a woman with the expectation that she’ll do that? 
      
     I’ve seen plenty of men putting family over career; in fact, I’ve seen many families where both parents do that.  My own family is an example of this.  But hub and I didn’t marry each other with the expectation that the other person would be the “family” person and we’d be the career person – in real life, it just isn’t that simple.  Both sides have to make sacrifices.  This isn’t something you can ask a woman about in the dating stage and expect her to come up with an answer that will be true for a lifetime, let alone 10 years. She may say she wants to put family first, but who knows? Even she doesn’t know. She may say she wants to put career first, but again – who knows? 
      
     Focus on compatibility, and don’t worry so much about kids you don’t even have yet.
      
     I agree with recent comments that let’s just let it lie about balance, pacifism, etc. Clearly we all have different definitions, and a blog space won’t be sufficient to win others over to our unique definition.

228. Greg 228

     @Helen 227
     I think that this is something you definitely ask a women in the dating stage.  Better to find out before marriage.  And I absolutely agree that both parents should put their family and relationship ahead of the own careers.  That’s what teamwork is all about.  Anyone who has played team sports knows this. Team comes first, you come second.  In marriage you put the team, your family, first.  Men in general are not looking for a woman that is trying to compete with them.  They want a teammate who is going to work with them and put the team first, not their own pursuits.

229. Goldie 229

     @ Greg & Helen: I agree about putting family first. As long as we’re all in agreement that it doesn’t mean “woman should never leave the kitchen”. I think both parents doing something for a living that they like, are passionate about, and are good at, is a positive example for the children. My 18yo is right now in college, getting the same major I got when I went to school, and wants to do the same thing his father and I do for a living. So I figure we did something right Of course, he also says that we’ve done it all wrong and he’ll never have a boring office job like ours, but will do something cutting-edge and creative instead, and make a difference in the world. Sounds good to me.
      
     I will be the first to admit, my career would’ve been very different if I hadn’t put the kids first. First I took several years off work when they were born, then for years I passed on challenging, interesting jobs in favor of something stable, close to home, with flex hours and excellent medical benefits. So there have been some level of compromise. But I’d have probably done my children a disservice if I’d abandoned my career altogether, because my work is a part of who I am.
      
     @ St Stephen #226, oh for crying out loud, we are in a recession. People lose their jobs and take paycuts every day. What kind of wife loses her attraction for her husband just because any of those things (that can also happen to her any day) have happened to him? I’d say, in this case, the couple has bigger issues than the person with the wrong genitals being the prime earner in the family.

230. Annie 230

     Definition of “to balance,” from Webster’s Free Online Dictionary; mathematical and accounting definitions removed for clarity’s sake. “Balanced” would be the past participle of this infinitive. The past participle can be used as an adjective, as it is in the case at hand. Note that the this word is about weighing one thing against another. No mention of being objective or neutral. Sorry. 
     v.tr.
     1. To determine the weight of (something) in or as if in a weighing device.
     2. To compare by or as if by turning over in the mind: balanced the pros and cons before making a choice.
     3. To bring into or maintain in a state of equilibrium.
     4. To act as an equalizing weight or force to; counterbalance.
     9. To move toward and then away from (a dance partner).

     v.intr.
     1. To be in or come into equilibrium.
     2. To be equal or equivalent.
     3. To sway or waver as if losing or regaining equilibrium.
     4. To move toward and then away from a dance partner.

231. Ruby 231

     St Stephen #226

      <<I’ve also read in this and other blogs where women commented that they started feeling like the man in the relationship when they were made to bear the financial burden and consequently lost attraction towards their husbands.>>

     Again, women – and men – have complained about their partners for a wide variety of reasons, so I would still say that your assertion that “most marriages still break up when the men stopped being the primary bread winner” is inaccurate.

232. Annie 232

     The English language is actually very precise. Our words are actions. So say what you mean, and mean what you say. If you misspeak, correct as soon as possible. The burden of communication is on the communicator.

     That said, we all need to find our tribe–the people who speak our language. Fewer problems!

233. Ruby 233

     Annie #230 

     The definition for “to balance” differs slightly from the definition of “balanced”. Used as an adjective, balance also means “presenting opposing points of view fairly and without bias.” Synonyms for balance include “fair, equitable, just, impartial, evenhanded”. (Also from The Free Dictionary). I think this is what Nathan means. 

234. Saint Stephen 234

     Nathan Said (#65)
     The other thing about those who are high on the dramatic risk taking scale in terms of career is that they tend to live short lives. Or spend their older years in failing health, due to ignoring it all along in order to get ahead. So, maybe you find the high powered CEO or world explorer who never inspires boredom and is even somewhat emotionally open, but the guy (or woman) has heart disease by age 50, stroke and heart attacks before age 60, and perhaps is dead before 65. Maybe that sounds dramatic, but it’s more common than people think. 
     Nathan you Nailed it. learn’t of Steve Jobs death and i must say you are so right. Most men who exhaust themselves in their youthful age fighting so hard to be hyper-successful, spend the latter part of their years struggling with failing health. I think some women would be wise to reconsider their choice of men if they wouldn’t like the idea becoming early widows. especially since women tend to have a longer life span than men.  

235. Annie 235

     Ruby@233: Synonyms hold the same or similar meanings to the original word. With the word “balance,” you never find a definition that does not include the idea of weighing two things against each other, so I contend that the synonyms you list are similar in meaning to “balanced” but do not have the same meaning. Take the commonly used phrase “fair and balanced reporting.” If “balanced” also meant “fair” there would be no need to use both adjectives to get the idea across.

     But for the sake of discussion–let’s have it your way. Then Nathan’s phrase becomes:

     “I am one of the fairest commentators on this board”
     “I am one of the most equitable commentators on this board”
     “I am one of the most just commentators on this board”
     “I am one of the  most impartial commentators on this board”
     “I am one of the most evenhanded commentators on this board”

     First, you can see how the meaning of each sentence is slightly different. Second, you can see how the statement itself calls into question the character of the speaker. For this reason, in my alpha-male-dominated industry, no one is ever allowed to make these kinds of statements–they would be fined or sued. Self-aggrandized claims to balance/fairness/impartiality/whatever you want to call it are strictly forbidden (no one would believe it anyway–everyone has a stake in something)–you have to demonstrate your impartiality by weighing one thing against another and let the reader decide for him- or herself. (And you also have to disclose conflicts of interest.)

     Curiously, it is these fellows I work with who would be more offended (if they cared at all) about being characterized as “power-driven.” They would claim to be “ambitious” or “hard-working,” synonyms to Nathan’s more loaded and perjorative phrase. And that’s what I think these women mean when they say what they want in partner.  

     Full circle.

236. Annie 236

     Nathan@65; Ridiculous assertions about successful men. Definitely not balanced (or informed)!

237. Goldie 237

     @ SS #234
      
     ” learn’t of Steve Jobs death and i must say you are so right. Most men who exhaust themselves in their youthful age fighting so hard to be hyper-successful, spend the latter part of their years struggling with failing health.”
      
     If the above is true, then you just found a cure for cancer.

238. Ruby 238

     Annie #235

     I don’t know your profession, so I’m not sure how such a statement would be used in that context. But in the context that I believe Nathan is meaning it here, I have no issues with him saying he believes himself to be one of the most “impartial” commentators on this board, for example. However, if you disagree with Nathan’s statements and opinions in general, then you might have reason to challenge that belief. Certainly, there are both power-driven and ambitious individuals in most professions. but I’d agree that most women are looking for the hard-working type, rather than the power-hungry version.

239. Jadafisk 239

     But… everyone “struggles with failing health in their later years.” It’s how you die.

240. Ali 240

     It’s true 100% what you said in the post. Everyone wants a challenge. If I have seen already what you have to offer then why should I even stay here when I can get something better. The key is to not let the relationship become monotonous and always keep evolving.

241. Eva Miller 241

     Really some very inspirational content! I am so pleased to know that information whatever you pop up here about relationship and attract a guy. Thanks Evan!! 

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