How Do I Date After My Divorce If I Think All Women Are Gold Diggers?
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Evan – First, I’d like to thank you and everyone who posts on your blog. Now that I’m back in dating mode, I can use all the help I can get. You recently addressed the issue of how to get over a broken heart. Well when some relationships end, there is not only a broken heart but also a devastating financial impact which naturally has an adverse effect upon one’s emotions. The advice for a broken heart is usually a mixture of “give it some time”, “he/she wasn’t the right one for you”, and “find a new BF/GF.” Over time, the pain dissipates, and if someone is reluctant to start a new relationship because of fear of being hurt again, then the “is it better to have loved and lost than never to have loved” words start flowing. It’s all good advice and most people, myself included, are able to dust ourselves off and enter into a new relationship after an appropriate amount of time. The broken heart I have dealt with. The “broken bank account,” however, is a problem that I have to deal with for the remainder of my life.
My ex was awarded 50% of savings/pension/etc. – no problem. I pay child support – no problem. I have to pay permanent alimony until the day one of us passes away – Big Problem! One of your posters mentioned removing all reminders of an ex as a way to ease the heartbreak. I cannot remove the reminder of sending my ex a substantial check every month. My plan to switch careers after the divorce was derailed because the alimony is based on my earnings potential. My plan to retire is a dream because my state does not recognize voluntary retirement as a valid reason to decrease an alimony award.
I have two issues. The immediate concern is I keep meeting women who basically live a life of leisure due to winning the alimony lottery. Once I realize their source of income, I lose all respect for them and view them as gold diggers and opportunists. Yet part of me realizes I shouldn’t view them this way because they’re only taking advantage of the laws of the state (the McDonald’s hot coffee in the lap scenario just popped into my mind.) I’ve been so turned off by the initial alimony disclosure that I never pursue the relationships further. I think alimony might be warranted based on the circumstances, but how should I dig a little deeper to find out if she is a money grubbing lotto winner or someone who truly deserves the alimony?
I would love to find “the one” and eventually re-marry, yet the practical side of me is extremely risk averse. It’s hard enough to enter into a relationship knowing your heart might be broken some day. After getting ^&* by the courts and the ex, it is extremely difficult to deal with the possibility that I might end up paying alimony to two women for life. Any advice other than find a rich woman or insist on a prenup? By the way, if this is posted on your blog I’d love to hear from some women who are paying alimony as well as the views of some women who are receiving alimony.
–Jaded Man
Dear Jaded,
This is an important question and I’m not going to muck it up by writing a long-winded answer. All I will say is this before I let our readers have a go:
Unless you want to protect yourself from finding love ever again, you’re better off not interrogating your dates, no matter how much you want to.
Emotionally, you are no different than the woman who had her husband cheat on her. You’ve trusted, you’ve been burned, and it’s hard not to judge each new woman by the unfortunate standards set by your ex. But I’ll tell you the same thing I tell every woman who doesn’t trust: “The next woman has nothing to do with the last woman.” They’re independent rolls of the dice.
And unless you want to protect yourself from finding love ever again, you’re better off not interrogating your dates, no matter how much you want to.
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58 Comments »Filed Under Dating
Cindy 1
This is so true. I find that I meet a lot of men that want to make me pay the emotional price for their last “bad” marriages/relationships.
I believe!
I came out of a very abusive relationship and a failed marriage. I had to come to terms that none of it was my fault and I was a “survivor” of circumstances.
Althought it’s hard, when I date I have to remind myself that the next guy is not these past guys. We have no control of our heartbreaks in the future and we should enjoy the moments because in any bad relationship there are lessons and good times we have just clouded over with all the bad stuff that has happened.
There are good women and men out there!
Ganesha 2
I am 35 woman, professional and south European and in my country there is no life-time alimony, which I find terrible, by the way. Here the father should pay the alimony for the children until they are certain age, and this would depend on the age children finish their studies. If there are no children, there is no alimony whatsoever.
However, coming back to the main question, I still find that men after divorce are quite challenging. My last “relationship” (I now think it was an imaginary one) was with a divorced guy with two children and 9 years older than me. Despite sharing a lot of think such as way of life, values, hobbies, etc., we found after one year that he still loved very much his ex wife. So here I am mending my broken heart and starting over again (being happy with myself, family and friends, dating again). My ex friend is terrified about starting a relationship and feels he’s cheating his ex wife. An ex wife that has now a new relationship, but for him, he’s the ideal mother, woman, lover, etc. I was just a pet (friend, personal shopper and nothing else) in his personal life and admit that I would take risk with men again but in a careful way. A divorced man has a family, so it is not the same as a single man. That means that a divorced guy could be reluctant to start a family with someone and could have issues (emotional+financial) from his past.
But this is life, and as Jaded Man said: It is better to have love and lost, that have never loved. I truly think I can still have the family I deserve.
Sayanta 3
that’s such a sad story- I saw a lot of it working in court though. I realize that it’s natural to want companionship, but I’m not sure Jaded Man should even be dating- maybe this should be a time of introspection and soul-searching on his own before he even considers dating. You don’t want to end up like another Paul McCartney/Heather Mills casualty.
Ruby 4
I’ve never been married, so I don’t get alimony. I have other never-married female friends who fully support themselves. I have divorced friends who also don’t get it, and never did, especially if they weren’t married very long. Plenty of women don’t get alimony, or get child support and no alimony. Why not look at women like us who either haven’t been married and/or have successful (or at least successful-enough) careers, and don’t need to rely on that?
And be sure that you re actually ready to move on. Sometimes we unconsciously pick partners who are like our previous partners because we haven’t resolved the past relationship yet. We end up with the same issues because we’re not ready to move forward. And then you can sit back and say that “all women are after my money, just like my ex…” If you “keep meeting these women” perhaps it’s because you are not ready to look for someone who is different?
Mel 5
I’m divorced too, had an incredibly emotionally and mentally abusive marriage. I’m raising my toddler on my own with no child support.
In my last relationship, the guy actually had trust issues because his ex-fiance manipulated him. He took it out on me and I eventually left. Unlike him, I dealt with many of my issues from my marriage and consciously make an effort not to take it out on others. Actually, it’s a continuous work in progress. You have to continuously remind yourself that not all fingers are the same.
Everybody who has gone through such a psychologically and emotionally devastating relationship really need to take the time to heal and self-reflect. Learn from it. It’s not fair to take it out on a new person who is truly innocent and should not be held responsible for whatever happened in your past.
SS 6
While I know this could never happen, I would love it if there was a law against folks getting involved in new relationships less than a year after the divorced papers are signed.
Divorce is tough. I don’t think people realize that until they’re going through it. Even when they hate their ex’s guts and even in cases where one could show the ex is totally in the wrong, the destruction of a marriage is a painful thing — even at times when it needs to be done.
I can’t speak for divorced women, but I dated a number of men who had recently gotten out of marriages. I don’t know why they were so attracted to me — maybe I was younger, sympathetic, a good therapist/counselor type — but I always drew these guys. And then I would begin falling for them… and right as that happened, they’d pull away, saying that I was a great woman and all, but our growing closeness made them realize that they really weren’t ready for another serious relationship.
None of them wanted to get back with their ex-wives (and they didn’t), but they simply were not over the dissolution of their marriages. Regardless of how much they thought they were… and they ALL thought they were!
So I just stopped bothering with them.
In the case of this guy, he’d be a classic one I’d stay away from, even though I wouldn’t have been in the category of divorced women (with or without alimony). Just the fact that he’s putting up barriers already — i.e., “I’ll date someone, but it’s going to go the way I want it this time so that it doesn’t end up like my marriage” — is not the beginning of a healthy relationship.
Cate 7
No one’s answered his first question: how to avoid thinking of his ex every month. One small thing that could help is to set up a recurring payment at his bank’s online bill-paying page and then ignore it. If you keep a check register, just write something neutral like “bank transfer”, not her name, not “alimony”, not even “ex”.
On a more facetious note: retire to Costa Rica… they don’t extradite!
Sally 8
The more my ex-husband hears stories like this (Alimony for life? WTH?) the more he realizes what a peach of an ex-wife I am.
Steve 9
Jaded;
Get to the know the woman.
Is she working or doing something that will enable her to eventually take care of herself?
IMO, American divorce laws are out of date. If children are not involved alimony should be about enabling people to support themselves who lost that ability as a result of marriage. Once that person can take care of themselves alimony should end.
On the one hand you see articles about women not needing men financially, men not going to college as much, women earning more, men earning less and that causing problems with people hooking up. On the other hand, you still come across many experiences like Jaded’s. Different people have different paths through life, so I think it is possible for both sets of things to be a reality. It is just interesting to see the diversity of roles that women as a group can be comfortable with. With the exception of a minorty, I think most men would feel very self conscious about letting someone support them.
EMK wrote:
Emotionally, you are no different than the woman who had her husband cheat on her.
I realize this sounds crass. A woman who has been cheated on can eventually recover. Someone like Jaded is financially crippled for life. Dreams and hopes permanently canceled.
BloggyDaddy 10
I’m a divorced man and can definitely relate to this post. My wife was just like the post said, “fell in love with another man, picked up and left and decided to get a divorce.” We had a son together, now 6, and I was also with her son, now 12 since he was 4 years old. I have shared custody with her of my son and I still see my former stepson every other weekend.
My trust and admittedly my heart, were shattered by the experience, and I still have to see her every other weekend when I pick up my former stepson and return him at the end of the weekend. There is no easy way to stop thinking about her as we have to see each other at those times and various school activities and such. All I can say is that it gets better with time. I remember hearing people say that to me 2 years ago but it is true and you can’t change it. I’ve heard it said that one needs to take the amount of time you were together and divide it in half to know how much time you need to fully heal from the divorce. I don’t know if that is true, but I do know that time is the best healer, it’s just hard to wait for.
I find dating hard now though, not because of trust or finances, it’s just that I’ve never dated much to begin with even before I was married and I’m introverted as well. This makes it tough, but I can honestly say that I dated one woman for about three months and I didn’t have any trust issues with her because of my experience. Unfortunately she was not over her ex, still loved him and wasn’t ready for a new relationship. Once I realized that was the case I broke it off. I’d like to think that whenever I meet the next woman I’d like to be with, I’ll be able to treat her as an individual and not hold her up to other women I’ve been with.
Suzy 11
I am a divorced woman in my mid forties. My husband had an affair after 23 years and 3 kids. They were still in school. I made more money. I had to fight for custody. If we split custoday, I would be paying HIM-even though he was the cheater and wanted the divorce. As to assets. I got half of his, but he got half of mine. So Evan if your wife left you and took half of your money, you could take half of hers. At least in my state. It’s not just women taking the men. I have had friends leave abusive husbands and seen them sign the equity in the house over to the husband to keep the funds in their 401K. I also have friends who were stay at home moms, and I know when they split up the husbands were resentful of the wives taking half of “their money” and pension. Well, the wife/mother gave up contributing to social security and raised the children so the man could work. Of course they were entitled to half. A lot of them supported their husbands through school also. So again, they were entitled to this money.
I don’t see divorce as unfair to men. In fact, most of the divorces I see are initiated by men who have affairs, split homes, and leave women struggling financially.
Christie Hartman 12
I am divorced and do not receive alimony; nor does any divorced woman I know. However, I wrote a book for women on how to handle dating and relationships with men like yourself. These days, alimony is the exception to the rule, and most wives do not receive it upon divorce. Last I heard, alimony is awarded in only 15% of divorces. And alimony for life is EXTREMELY unusual these days. The purpose of alimony is to provide a level playing field after divorce – e.g. if a wife says home and cares for the kids/home while a man is out increasing his income potential over 20 years, she has made a sacrifice on his behalf and is entitled to “payoff.” Without knowing the details of your situation, it is difficult to comment any further on that.
As far as your prejudice toward women on alimony goes, it may help to remember a couple of things. One, she may have earned it by being in the situation I described above. Two, not all men have to be court-ordered to pay alimony – many agree to it. Yes, find out more about these women before making assumptions. And, depending on your circumstances, I wouldn’t rule out going back to court at some later date.
Tough situation, man. With new women, take your time and get to know them. You’ll know when it’s right.
Goldie 13
@ Suzy and Christie ##11 and 12, I was going to say the same thing about stay-at-home moms. I have met several couples where the husband brought the wife over from a different country and told her, in one case, not to worry about money, “just stay home and raise the kids, I’ll take care of everything”. In another case, he just told her she was never going to work, period. I hope these couples are doing well, but hypothetically, if a man puts his wife in this situation and then they split up twenty years later, then yes by all means he owes her alimony, as she has no income of her own, no profession, no work experience and it is all a result of the request he once made. I would imagine if the wife cannot work due to a disability, she’d be entitled to alimony as well. Sounds fair to me. It is a very rare occasion where I live and I do not know anyone personally that receives it.
MAXINE 14
Dear Jaded:
Right now you sound very bitter and you are really not ready for any type of relationship. I used to be in your very same shoes. I was married for over many years to a man I really loved since high school. Thouhgt we would be married all of our lives. However, he did not share my thouhgts. After discovering his playmate (she did not realize he was married). I decided to end the marriage after a few more playmates popped up.
At the time, I was the major breadwinner in the family. He was tryin to start his own business. Therefore, he tried to blame me for his wanderings. He said I was never home. However, I was trying to make a comfortable home for our family. Yes, we had a child together. We did agree that we would not ask anything of each in order to get a quick and stress-free divorce. Unfortunately, he did not keep his word. Even though I had been paying the mortage by myself, his lawyer was requesting half the value of the home we owned together. Wow, was I surprised by this request. I had been paying most of the bills including the high mortgage payments.
Fortunately for me, I had a very aggressive lawyer who felt that I would be giving away too much and had asked for so little in return. We finally reached an agreement that was not too painful for me to bear. With his divorce money, he took his girlfriend on a wonderful vacation and paid her rent until the money ran out. Yes, he started coming around saying how much he love and missed me and our child. You know the story!
All of this happened quite a few years ago. However, I never let that stop me from meeting very nice men and going out with them. I dropped the baggage and started to enjoy my freedom. I finally did meet a very wonderful man and had a very long term relationship with him. Unfortunately, he passed away last year. All of this is to say, give yourself some time to heal. When the time and the woman is right, you will know it. Evan is definitely right about that! Also, maybe you should have another lawyer look into your case. Good Luck to You!!
morgan 15
Wow, lifetime alimony. That truly sucks.
I’ve noticed a real split in attitudes in the women I know in terms of taking responsibility for earning the family income. Some want to take the traditional stay at home role while others willingly take joint responsibility for paying the bills. This isn’t alway easy, especially when the kids are pre-school. I assume men have a say in these decisions and that many enjoy the benefits of having a spouse who doesn’t work.
I don’t think its unreasonable for Jaded to be leery of women on lifetime alimony (personally I find the concept abhorrent). He just needs to find himself a woman who takes financial responsiblity for herself, there are plenty around.
Once he’s done that he needs to make sure he doesn’t whinge about his ex. I’ve had a relationship with a divorced man who regularly complained about paying (quite reasonable) child support and it wasn’t sexy.
JerseyGirl 16
You’re not a “Gold-digger” because you receive alimony from your ex-husband who you have children with. You are a gold-digger if you are 20 years old and dating wealthy or famous old men.
Too many men throw around the term “Gold-Digger” when it doesn’t apply. The comedian Steve Harvey wrote a relationshipbook (God knows why) but he did say something of value about “Gold-Digger:
“Of course..some men simply refuse to share the money in their pockets with their women. As some rap songs and hiphop magazines tell you, these men feel they’re being “played of they provide anything of monetary value to the opposite sex. Some men even label any and every woman who expects her intended to provide for her the very handy, decisively ugly phrase gold digger. Oh, when it comes to women, that phrase gets tossed around these days like dough in a New York City pizza parlor. In fact, men have set it up so well that we’ve got women thinking that if they remotely expect a man to pay for their dinner, or buy them a drink at the bar, or set any financial requirements for their man, then they’re gold diggers.
I’m here to tell you, though, ladies, that the term “gold digger” is one of the traps we men set to keep you off our money trail; we created that term for you so that we can have all of our money and still get everything we want from you without you asking for or expecting this very basic, instinctual responsibility that men all over the world are obligated to assume and embrace. It’s a “get-over” term, ladies- one that has a very legitimate premise (there are, of course, women who date and marry men solely for their cold, hard cash), but one that has been wrongly and almost universally applied to any woman who has made it clear that she expects her man to fulfill his duty as a man. Know this: It is your right to expect that a man will pay for your dinner, your movie ticket your club entry fee, or whatever else he has to pay for in exchange for your time. You all have to stop this foolishness with the “I pay for my dinner so he knows I don’t need him” approach. As I point out in the next chapter, “The Three THings Every Man Needs: Support, Loyatly, and the COokie,” a man- a real one, anyway- wants to feel needed. And the easiest way to help him get that high is to LET him provide for you. This is only fair.
And if he loves you? He is going to bring every sent home to you.
Act like a Lady, think like a man” – Steve Harvey
Steve 17
The couple of posts here from women who ended up paying alimony have been a revelation. Those women sound a lot like the men who are the usual authors of those stories. I used to think the two sides of the alimony story were divided by sex, but maybe it is divided up by who pays. A possible silver lining is that someone like Jaded could find a woman who really can understand where he is coming from.
Steve 18
@Jersey Girl
No offense to you whatsoever. I am criticizing the Steve Harvey quote, not you. That quote seems to put women on the level of prostitutes, aka if they are putting out for men they should be getting something materialistic in return instead of just the pleasure of their company.
I’m going to remember that the next time a thread about the issues of dating financially successful women comes up. Those situations would at least have the silver lining of the man knowing it is not about is money.
Selena 19
If anything, posts (and comments) like these take the *glamour* out of marriage. Legally speaking, it’s still a business arrangement. And one can see why people who have been married and divorced may not be so eager to sign a license again.
So what would our culture look like if legal marriage were abolished?
Cat 20
Selena, #19 asked: So what would our culture look like if legal marriage were abolished?
Probably how it looks currently to the lesbian and gay community.
Steve 21
@ Selena #19
I had the same thoughts reading this thread and with a 55% divorce rate people can’t rationalize that they are somehow immune. I was pretty much indifferent to marriage, but this thread is making me think that should advocate for alternative types of being in an LTR.
Selena 22
@ Steve#21
I agree, but Jaded (and men and women like him), are still going to be subject to the pressures of others who believe committment = legal marriage. And anyone who questions the validity of such a longstanding legal institution does so at the risk of being labeled “bitter”.
Jadafisk 23
JerseyGirl: There’s got to be a midpoint… women that expect a guy to spring $15 for an entree aren’t “gold-diggers” by any stretch of the imagination, but that expectation is nowhere near a “right.”
As for the OP… I had the same reaction as many of the other posters… “People still get awarded alimony?”
JerseyGirl 24
I’m not offended Steve but I don’t agree with you either. I don’t think the qoute hints at anything close to a john/hooker relationship. He isn’t advocating that women be with men they don’t love. He isn’t even advocating that men pay for the sake of paying. All he is saying is that the term gold-digger has been over manipulated. Like I said, a 20 year old girl marrying a 60 year old rich male, yeah, that’s a gold digger. You’re everyday average woman who gets invovled with your everyday average man..umm sorry, not a gold-digger.
If a man cares for you, truly cares for you, he isn’t going to be stingy with his money. Now this isn’t the same as having to buy a woman big huge pricey gifts or live outside his means. But a man that considers you part of his life, a man that wants you to be part of his life, will share his resources with you. This is deeply biological.
Time and time again women are told that men care about their looks, that you need to be a certain level of youth and fitness because men are “biologically” programmed to like that.
Women are biologically programmed to consider a man’s ability to provide. We need to know a man is capable in such matters. And a man that thinks your important or worthy enough to spend some of his resoures on is clearly interested in you.
If men don’t apologize for chasing women based on their looks, why should a woman apologize for evulating a man based on his money?
C. 25
I agree with Ruby(4) and Christie(12).
There are SOOO many more women out there that aren’t living off alimony than those who are. If you are constantly meeting women who are “living a life of leisure”, then I think something is off with where you are looking.
Terri 26
In my personal and professional life as an owner/operator of a brick and mortar dating agency, I have never heard of life time alimony. As a wife who has worked for most of my marriage – except when the kids were very young – unless there are extenuating circumstances, I think it is so unfair.
I would recommend that anyone planning a second marriage seriously consider a prenup. Marriages now do not seem to be as serious and committed as they were 25+ years ago.
An unmarried 35 year old nephew voiced his concern about losing half his income and having a custody battle over any children in the marriage which is keeping him from making a legal commitment. IMO these seem like valid fears at this time.
sharon 27
I agree it absolutely agree it’s a business arrangement. And where your sharing assets like a home and the liability of children.. Well let’s put it this way, would you invest in a business partnership without any legal documentation? I think people just need to refine their contract. Deciding what’s fair is easier while you still both one another. So prenup! Of course this advice won’t answer the initial question at all. I’m curious though where is this place you live where all the women you meet have alimony and lifetime no less. The only women I know with life time alimony is my grandmother. Both my grandmother and grandfather are in their 90s still bitter as hell 40 + years after their divorce and I swear they’re both trying to outlive each other.
Nancy Cieri 28
Dear Jaded Man:
I don’t know what state you live in but I received no such generous spousal maintenance from my cheating ex-spouse! I concluded that although life is not fair, I am certainly blessed to be on the road to recovery, enjoying a love affair with myself(!) and not worrying about the future despite my own very vulnerable financial status and singledom. One wise friend advised me through the turmoil of my divorce to not worry about what you are getting (in life) but what you can give. That thought makes all the difference to me daily.
Best Wishes
Manhattan Lady
Sherell 29
PRENUP!!!!
Christie Hartman 30
@C (25): I too wondered why he is meeting so many women on alimony. The universe has a strange way of screwing with us – if you’re bitter about being cheated on, you seem to meet cheaters. If you’re bitter about paying uncomfortable levels of alimony, then “all” the women you date are getting it. What you focus on, you get.
But as I said before, it’s hard to comment further without more details – how old he is, is his ex-wife ill, are there kids, how old are the kids, how much does he have to pay. It’s probably not as bad as it seems.
Ruby 31
C #25 & CH #30
I suspect Jaded is attracting these women because he still has unresolved issues about his ex and his marriage. He’s afraid to move on and not ready yet, so he keeps picking women who are like his ex (a “money-grubbing lotto winner”). It’s a vicious cycle, but one of his own making.
Selena 32
A friend of mine gave up his interest in his property to settle his divorce in lieu of possibly having to pay his wife lifetime alimony. She had been a stay-at-home mom for the duration of their 17 yr. marriage and was 45 at time of the divorce.
Possibly Jadedman and his attorneys structured the settlement with the spousal support proviso to protect other assets? If he is a wealthy man with diverse business ventures, it could be in his best interest that the “payout” to his former wife was in the form of a unvarying monthly cash stipend, rather than controlling interest in other income venues.
And if he really does keep meeting women who “won the alimony lottery”, it’s likely because he is dating in the same socioeconomic circles in terms of business and wealth.
InsertPseudonymHere 33
@Christie @Ruby What you focus on, you notice anyway, that is for sure, sometimes whether it is there or not. I can’t imagine Jaded has a subconscious “alimony receiver” detector that clues him into women on alimony or that there is a set of personality traits or profile flags that only Women On Alimony have. But, if he is still angry at his ex, maybe he does read more into the women he encounters than is really there.
The business side of a marriage is quick and easy to enter, and complex to exit. Anyone getting married should read through a template divorce agreement so they understand what they are getting into. I was shocked when mine ended up being 26+ pages, and we had already divided all of our property and mostly agreed on “co-parenting” topics! To prenup or not is up to the individuals, but at least folks should enter into marriage knowing what it means.
starthrower68 34
Just yesterday on Dave Ramsey a woman in her 2nd marriage called in because her husband insisted on keeping their finances separate; but he made twice what she earns and expected her to pay half. Alot of people who have alot believe they never have enough.
Ruby 35
InsertPseudonym #33
Jaded says he keeps meeting women who “basically live a life of leisure”. If a woman is receiving lifetime alimony, chances are she isn’t working. so that would be one clue.
Intros 36
With age comes experience and knowledge. Believe it or not you are in a far better place to make the right decisions for yourself. However, my advice is to try and stay as open and flexible as you can. So many clients in the past have tried to “replace” a past love and by being too stringent on the many characteristics that make up a human being they miss out on so many new opportunities.
Robyn 37
Very simple way to avoid major future alimony issues (should you marry & then unfortunately end up in divorce) – PRE-NUP!!!!!
That being said, if this guy expects his future wife to give up or significantly curtail her career (which is what she uses to support herself financially & secure her future retirement), then he cannot expect to get away with not compensating her financially to some extent should they divorce.
This is one of the reasons why I chose not to marry my ex-fiance – his idea of a pre-nup was an entirely one-sided deal that was all about protecting his assets & financial security, but not mine (any clauses about compensating me for thousands of dollars of relocation expenses and/or taking a 40% pay-cut to move to his city were deemed “not necessary” in his opinion).
But this is not something you bring up as a conversation topic on a first (or second or third) date! It would totally put me off, to say the least, because the message that I would be hearing would be that the guy totally didn’t trust me, and was – quite frankly – a little too selfish/self-centered in his attitude.
One thing to note – many (but not all) alimony payments cease if the recipient choses to re-marry. So all these “gold-diggers” may well not want to marry this guy because they would lose out financially. If they aren’t particularly concerned about re-marrying, they might be quite OK with having a long-term relationship with this guy (assuming his attitude improves!).
And then he wouldn’t ever have to worry about repeat alimony…
been_there_done_that 38
I’m in a similar situation as Jared and have the same practical considerations when I date. I disagree with Evan, if I date someone that won the alimony lottery, it is helpful to terminate the relationship quickly; they are not women that have pride in themselves nor the maturity to stand on their own two feet. Independent strong women are attractive. It says a lot about a woman that hoses her ex-husband for excessive and long-term alimony (short-term alimony is cool with me when the lack of it affects your children) just as it says a lot about a man who tries to get out of supporting his own children. Both are losers to avoid.
As for protecting what you managed to keep after your marriage ends, it comes down to birth control (stop having kids with women), staying out of court (a complete waste of money, having integrity is cheaper) and avoiding marriage (too risky to leave it up to a future judge). Prenups are not iron clad unless they done with independent counsel with sufficient time before a marriage, I wouldn’t place much value in them. Men have to learn about family law also, it makes no sense to be ignorant of your rights should the right woman come along.
Christa 39
I think I may be in the minority of experience based on the comments posted thus far. I was married for 17 years and had 3 children. I did the classic “quit school to support him in grad school” scenario. Our deal was that I would go back and get my degree once he got a job. After he received his doctorate, he accepted a 3 year post-doc (without telling me before hand). By the time he was finished, we had 2 kids with a 3rd on the way. He was supposed to work in academia so that I could go to school for free or at significantly reduced rates. He didn’t have his first job until he turned 30 and it wasn’t in academia. We couldn’t afford for me to go back to school and raise 3 kids.
My divorce finalized 2 years ago. I let him keep the house, the money in his personal checking account that he “hid” from me, and never asked for a dime from his 401k & pension. We share 50/50 custody and he complained daily for 2 weeks straight (I counted) about how unfair it was for him to pay me child support. It isn’t much, but in my state child support has very strict criteria and very little negotiating room. And he makes twice what I make.
Given my situation I could have “stuck it to him” if I wanted to. But that’s not me. If I hadn’t had the job experience I did or if I were a stay-at-home mom, then I absolutely would have taken alimony, but only enough to get me through college as we had agreed to early on. Once I had my degree, I wouldn’t want anything else to do with his money.
So, not all women receive alimony. And of those eligible, not all of us take it. If your fear is women wanting you only for your money, then I think you need to change a few things. First, don’t flaunt what you have. If you normally drive a mercedes, buy a toyota for dates. Don’t wear expensive clothes or discuss finances when you are first getting to know one another. Don’t post your salary range in an on-line profile. When you tell women what you do, be honest, but general. If you are in finance, say that, but leave out the part about being at executive level. On dates, keep it to “normal” stuff initially. Avoid 5 star-restaurants and yacht club events.
Second, pay attention to what she does and what she says. I’m not talking about the normal “listen to what a woman says” advice. I mean listen for hints about her motivation. If you are walking in the mall waiting for a movie to start, does she stop in front of a jewelry store to check out the merchandise? How often does she try and find out your salary or net worth? Does she seem fixated on brand name clothes/stores/cars? I think you can tell pretty early on what type of person she is, you just need to be open minded enough to see it and not jaded about how to interpret it.
Good luck!
Jaded 40
I’m the OP and I’d like to thank Christa and the others for your great advice.
I live near a resort/high-end vacation town so that explains why a large number of the divorced women I meet have a upper middle-class lifestyle. As far as the issue of permanent alimony goes, it is fairly common in my state for successful businessmen/professionals to pay alimony so the ex can maintain the standard of living he/she has become accustomed to. Many states have limits on alimony now (Texas has a 3 year cap I believe). Other states, such as MA, NJ, & FL, allow the judge to award permanent alimony. Whether alimony in my situation was appropriate is irrelevant at this point. It’s been ordered, I must pay. If anyone is interested in learning more about alimony, a quick google search for “permanent alimony nightmare” will bring up quite a few hits.
Regarding the women I find, I do not consciously or subconsciously seek out women living a life of leisure. In fact I try my best to avoid them! However I might find a nurse, for example, on Match and then find out she had been married to an MD for years and now works one or two days a week.
One of my concerns is whether a woman would ever be willing to begin a serious LTR with me. How many of the women reading this blog would be willing to begin a relationship knowing that your BF would have to forfeit alimony or a trust fund if he wanted to get married someday?
The second concern is whether a second marriage could also end in disaster. Evan said “But I’ll tell you the same thing I tell every woman who doesn’t trust: “The next woman has nothing to do with the last woman.” They’re independent rolls of the dice.”
I agree 100% with Evan’s assessment if we were talking about an abusive partner or a cheating spouse, but divorce laws are not independent rolls of the dice. When a marriage ends and an attorney tells her client that she is “entitled” to 50% of all assets and has a strong case for alimony, it is amazing how many people will say, okay, let’s go for it. I have deep respect for women like Christa but unfortunately no one knows if their bf/gf will be a Christa or a Heather Mills 20 years down the road.
For now, I will avoid the obvious gold diggers and also those receiving permanent alimony (who would have to forfeit alimony to re-marry). That leaves a huge percentage of women that I can date and if/when things become serious, I can broach the prenup.
I’m sure some readers will think I focus too much on the financial consequences but once bitten, twice shy is a pretty good motto.
For all the readers, both male and female, you might want to seriously consider a pre-nup. I spoke with a lady at work whose marriage ended after 20 years. Both her and her ex had nice incomes until they decided to divorce. She thought they’d split the assets down the middle, both would keep their individual pension plans, etc. No – Ex went on disability, he took her to the cleaners and rec’d half of her pension while retaining his (disability pension not divisible per federal law). A pre-nup would have protected her.
Hmmm, maybe I’m going about this all wrong…. maybe I should be searching for rich women!
Selena 41
@ # 40
Or maybe you should be searching for women who do not especially want to get married. Which come to think of it, might be those who receive lifetime alimony. Hmm. So why is it you don’t want to date them again?
Goldie 42
@ #40: “She thought they’d split the assets down the middle, both would keep their individual pension plans, etc. No – Ex went on disability, he took her to the cleaners”
Here’s what worked for me and my X. I was the initiator. Except for a couple of years when I stayed home with the children, throughout our lives, we’d been making pretty much the same amounts. Because our marriage had always been kind of on the rocks, we’d kept our finances separate and split all family expenses down the middle. The only thing we had in both our names was the house. Before I told him I was leaving, I typed up a letter stating that we each have pretty much the same salary and savings, and therefore have no material possessions to fight over. I also said that, because it was my choice to leave, it’s only fair to give him the choice whether he wanted to stay in the house or move out. I’d be cool either way. I also added that I wouldn’t fight him for anything except custody, not even for child support (there’s only a couple of years left of it, anyway). Being a generally nice and fair guy (hey, there was a reason I chose to marry him back in the day…) he agreed that we should each keep our own, stayed in the house, and offered me child support and my share of the equity.
However, in addition to all these nice offers and propositions, I also went out and hired the best, most aggressive lawyer in town. Cost more than the average price, I still miss that money… but that helped me feel that my back was covered in case my X would decide to try something. Kind of the “walk softly, carry a big stick” type of strategy.
Anyway, my advice? Search for independent women. Personally, I’m more happier pinching pennies on my own income, than living the life of leisure while being dependent on somebody else. And I’ve been this way since my late teens/early 20′s, so probably not likely to change now
@ Christa #39, yes this is exactly the situation I referred to earlier when I said in some cases, alimony is an absolutely just and fair thing. Sorry to hear things turned out this way for you. A family needs to be a team working together, and it upsets me greatly to hear about people that refuse to carry their own load in such a spectacular way
Christa 43
Jaded asked: ” How many of the women reading this blog would be willing to begin a relationship knowing that your BF would have to forfeit alimony or a trust fund if he wanted to get married someday?”
I would.
Again, you’re assuming the woman you are interested in is only interested in you for your net worth.
I earn my own money. I started babysitting when I was 11 and since then I’ve never not had a job. What I’ve also never had, though, is a deeply loving relationship. Money comes and goes. It pays the bills and is a means to enjoy life. It does not, however, laugh with me, hug me or support me.
I could keep expecting the next man I meet to take advantage of me, but I don’t. I’ve grown enough the past 5 years to understand why I married the man I did and why it wasn’t love I experienced. I also am well aware of the part I took in our dysfunctional relationship. Clearing out my own internal issues has made me a significantly happier person. I’m now excited to meet a man I can fall in love with. I view every date as an opportunity to have fun and meet someone new. If anything else happiness, great! If not, then I move on.
I’m not sure how to ask this without it sounding offensive, so I’ll preface it up-front by saying I’m really not trying to offend you at all. However, is it possible that you aren’t ready to move on? Or perhaps, you’re more concerned with losing more money than finding a loving woman? Again, I’m not judging or blaming, I’m simply trying to give you another thought to consider.
I don’t know, it just seems like you of losing more money. I know I’m not the only woman out there that isn’t motivated by money. However, if you have a trust fund, then I’m assuming you grew up with money. So, my question is can you live without your trust fund? I think that until you can give an honest “no” as an answer, that fear of losing more money will continue to rule the way you date and view relationships.
@ Goldie #42, Thanks, but don’t be sorry. It wasn’t all his fault. Short story – I had an alcoholic father and completely twisted views of what relationships/marriage was supposed to be. I was a great enabler, though! (eye roll). As I mentioned above, I am very aware of the part I played in our relationship. It wasn’t healthy for either of us. I’m a much better person now for having gone through it though. Plus I have 3 wonderful kids. So, no regrets!
Jaded 44
Christa @ 43 -
I’m sorry if my question was confusing. The point I was trying to make is that if I dated a woman who is receiving substantial alimony, at some point I could have my heart broken if I wanted to marry her and she would face the dilemma of either marrying me or continuing to receive alimony. Likewise, I would imagine that most women would not get involved with a man knowing that he would face a dilemma (giving up a trust fund, abdicating the throne to the UK, etc.) before he could marry. Of course the bf/gf would hopefully sacrifice all to marry in the future but if you know the situation would that sway you from entering into the relationship.
Christa 45
LOL….”abdicating the throne to the UK”?? Should I call you Charles or William? ;) Sorry, that really made me laugh.
I understand your question. I know this is going to sound really trite, but I simply see it as irrelevant. And I suppose this is due to our obvious socio-economic differences. Let me address your concerns this way:
Let’s say I was receiving alimony (and let’s say that the alimony is some ridiculous amount, like $5000/month) and also dating someone. Part of the alimony agreement is that it ends if I marry. Now, let’s say that I fall in love with a man who proposes to me. Would I say yes?
I really do believe in the innate goodness in people, so I believe I’m speaking on behalf of most decent women. The answer is: if I loved the man, absolutely, in a heart-beat.
Money doesn’t make you happy. People make you happy (if you’re with the right ones).
If I were dating someone who had money and he wanted me to sign a prenup, would I be offended? No. I would have no problem signing one and I honestly don’t understand why some women get seriously offended by this. As far as I’m concerned, any woman who is offended or refuses to sign one is only after your money and you should dump her immediately.
Would I stop dating someone if they had to give up their trust fund (or throne) to marry me? No, but I think this is where we’re misunderstanding each other.
I probably have a very different view than the women in your social circles because I’ve never had a trust fund or grew up with large sums of money. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not living in a trailer park somewhere either! My credit is impeccable and my only debt is my mortgage, which is actually my point.
I don’t need a trust fund to live comfortably. However, because I’ve never had one, what is comfortable for me may be scraping by for you, and that’s the point I was trying to make. As long as you have a job and can contribute to our cost of living, I couldn’t care less how much money you have or what I could have shared had you kept it.
This is why I think it’s irrelevant to worry about how I would react to you losing your trust fund. I’m not marrying your wallet. I’m marrying the man who carries it. And any woman who doesn’t have that same attitude isn’t worth getting involved with.
As long as you can live with what you’d be giving up, then the woman should be equally supportive and happy. Does that make sense?
Karl R 46
Jaded said: (#44)
“I would imagine that most women would not get involved with a man knowing that he would face a dilemma (giving up a trust fund, abdicating the throne to the UK, etc.) before he could marry.”
Some women would.
Jaded said: (#44)
“if I dated a woman who is receiving substantial alimony, at some point I could have my heart broken if I wanted to marry her and she would face the dilemma of either marrying me or continuing to receive alimony.”
You could also get your heart broken if she decides that she wants to reconcile with her ex. Or you could get your heart broken if she decides that she’s just not that into you. Or you could get your heart broken if she gets hit by a bus.
Heartbreak comes with the territory.
If you’re terrified of getting your heart broken, you won’t be able to forge a relationship with anyone, regardless of her prior marital status. Do you really want to let fear run your life?
So go be a Wallis and find your Edward.
Stacy 47
I skimmed through comments and not sure if someone made this point already, but perhaps a good place to start for Jaded would be to realize that he’s made the bed he now has to lie in. The only way a woman would get alimony is if she was making substantially less, or never worked at all and lacks skills to maintain her lifestyle. Jaded chose to marry a non-career woman, he chose to have a housewife and probably encouraged her staying at home or not pursuing career goals. This disaster now is totally of his own making. Had he instead married an ambitious woman on a promising career track, he could’ve been receiving alimony now instead (which happened to some of my girlfriends – they paid alimony to their ex-husbands).
So, as a proverbial “successful woman” who is seeing her male colleagues marrying actresses/waitresses and kindergarten teachers and dismissing women who are their equals, I wanna say – cry me a river, dude. Everything has its price in life, you want a granola-safe-the-earth-stay-at-home-go-to-yoga type – this will cost ya in a divorce court. Don’t want to pay that price? Go date women with brains and careers!
Exasperated 48
I am getting divorced soon. My husband has spent many years holding it against me that his second wife got a big payout. She did not contribute much to the marriage but got half of everything. I on the other hand brought a lot into the marriage. I sold my house and cashed in an investment policy and put that money into the house. I also worked very hard in the family business for years whilst he took part time retirement and enjoyed his hobbies. I ended up ill with stress and exhaustion. His attitude to me has actually been the most destructive thing in our marriage and almost certainly led to it’s ending. Now we are getting divorced I have had to fight to get a fair share. Rather than be called a gold digger I almost agreed to walk away with only 1/3rd of the joint assets but my solicitor told me I deserved more based purely on my initial financial contribution. On being told I would get half the value of the house my husband said “I have paid for that house twice over and still get nothing”. Actually, in the time I have been with him I have doubled his assets after the split. I have doubled my assets too but done the lions share of the work in the marriage.
If I ever marry again I will insist on a prenup to protect myself from any man who feels so hard done by. Even though I have been the main provider my husband still sees himself as the most important person in the marriage and always took the greater part of the income from the family business (a business which was virtually bankrupt when we met by the way). Why is it that men feel so entitled to a higher wage despite doing so little, both at work and at home. Interesting to note that despite only working part time he also felt entitled to not share in the housework or other normal family commitments
As for lifetime alimony, I will get nothing. He gets the business back and can enjoy a good income since I made the business so successful but I have to find a new job, new home, new friends and start all over again at nearly 50 years old. By the way, he was the one who had the affair with a friend of mine because, as he put it, I was boring being ill and tired all the time and not paying him enough attention.
Ruby 49
“if I dated a woman who is receiving substantial alimony, at some point I could have my heart broken if I wanted to marry her and she would face the dilemma of either marrying me or continuing to receive alimony.”
So live together and don’t get married. Big deal. Just avoid the alimony issue completely.
Christa 50
Stacy-
Jaded hasn’t expanded on the situation and I think it’s stereotyping to assume simply because he has money, that he married below his station and “encouraged” her to stay-at-home. Even if that was the case, then I think she should be awarded enough to support herself while gets an education and then finds a job. I think lifetime alimony is excessive because it does nothing but enable a woman to be dependent on someone else or gives a lazy person an excuse not to work.
I also had to ruefully smile at your stereo-typing stay-at-home moms. I’m a “granola” person (been a vegan for 6 years), a lifetime member of the sierra club, drive a hybrid, and enjoy yoga and tai-chi. I also own my own company (tech related, not “granola”) and fully support myself. I think I kinda break your mold. ;)
Stacy 51
Christa,
I am not stereotyping, I am thinking about this situation logically. No court in no state would give life alimony to a woman who makes equal $$ as her husband, in fact, to get life alimony one should be married for quite a long time and make substantially less than their spouse. Also, Jaded doesn’t really have money – as he says he can’t retire, so he’s not wealthy but most likely upper middle class.
As a career woman, I firmly support alimony for stay at home wives. Men drawn to “nurturing” types should know that these women will have financial consequences. In this case at least some of them consider actually forming a “power couple”. If men know that they can marry a non-career woman and kick her out whenever they want at no cost - then they would have no incentive to try to deal with their equals (which is intrinsically more difficult). This levels the dating playing field for me great deal (speaking from experience). I understand this sounds screwed up somewhat, but that’s the world we live in.
And yes, my “granola” stereotype was mostly intended to portray a soft, nurturing type as opposed to type-A type, I don’t have anything against vegans or yoga per se though don’t find much use for either.
Christie Hartman 52
Jaded #40: “I have deep respect for women like Christa but unfortunately no one knows if their bf/gf will be a Christa or a Heather Mills 20 years down the road.”
I too respect Christa – but not for the reason you do, Jaded. I respect her good attitude, given an unfair divorce settlement. This example shows that for every Gold Digger who wants excessive alimony, there’s a selfish jerk looking to keep everything he supposedly “earned” while his wife sacrificed her own education for his. Christa put aside a lot for a LONG time – I know what it’s like to go to college, then to grad school for another 4 years, then do a 3-year post-doc. And if my partner had sacrificed his career while I did all that, you can sure as freakin’ HELL that I would pay him back for that in some way, whether we divorced or not. This is just human decency.
There’s a big range between Christa and Heather Mills, dude. The problem here isn’t women – it’s your attitude.
Stacy #47: I agree 100% that “everything has its price” and that men who want stay-at-home moms need to pay for them. But your comment that if men want to avoid that they should “date women with brains and careers” is pretty insulting. Last time I checked, kindergarten teachers have brains AND a career, and yoga-lovers (and even stay-at-home moms) have have brains. This is a tough pill for some “career” women to swallow, but a LOT of people want children, and SOMEONE has to care for them, which often means sacrificing some aspects of career. Most of the time, the woman makes that sacrifice.
SJZ 53
Well said Christa. I was one of those housewives awarded permanent lifetime alimony. I was a stay at home mom for 21 years. I am college educated and have 3 children. I tried to work part time but, my ex worked the second shift. I worked eight hours a day and then had to come home and care for my 3 children alone during the most crucial hours of the day. I choose to stay home rather than lose my mind! To think women awarded lifetime alimony are sitting around leading a life of leisure is extremely insulting. Most times the alimony pays for very little and the ex wife NEEDS to get a job. My ex was abusive and I stayed many more years than I had to because I knew I could not support 3 children on my own. I started looking for work after the recession started and could not find a job.
Alimony does not have any consequences if it is not paid unless you take the ex to court. What woman with little money can afford a lawyer and do that? I paid a lawyer 2000.00 to get an 8000.00 lump sum in alimony and signed a paper saying he did not owe me anymore money. In the end I have lost my house and all my financial holdings. I am now filing for bankruptcy. My ex, because of his work history, is now in one of the top jobs he has always coveted. So quite whining about all these woman lounging around with lifetime alimony! Get over it! I have been thru hell and back and still believe in a loving marriage for my future. We all get burned by life. I am so tired of meeting men who have been so “hurt” and taken of financially by the woman in their life. They are so bitter that they never want to get married again. Yes, they want everything else but the commitment. Put on your big boy pants and deal with the hurt. We all have to quit whining about our bitterness and get on with a hopefully a better life.
Carlina 54
Jaded, it sounds to me as if you are still carrying resentment about paying the alimony, and that you are challenged by this reality of your previous relationship. To me that is the first hurdle to overcome, and it’s an internal, not external, process. I agree whole-heartedly with EMK on this one – each new potential GF is a brand new person, much like each new child born into a family from the same parents is so different to parent. While there are practical considerations as you can’t move forward with your original plan (like so many of us divorced with shattered happily-ever-afters), that to me sounds like it could be the second part of your resentment. You enter any kind of new relationship with this burden on your heart, and it skews how you look at any potential relationship, before you even know the woman or her intentions! As I read all the responses above, there is no one-size-fits-all, which is why I respectfully suggest it is an internal mind-set. Your life has been altered financially, no doubt; but will it define you for the future? Background: I am a divorced 54 yo with 3 now late teens, married for 24 yrs, SAHM for 10 yrs, but college educated. When the relationship went sour (he was financially irresponsible and wiped us out), I had to redefine myself, too. Now am working 2 jobs, and am receiving spotty child support (he has trouble keeping a job) and $100/mo alimony until my youngest is 18. Yes, I resented his breaking his promise to take care of us. But his actions don’t define me. I define myself now that I have new circumstances to contend with.
To my utter amazement, men of means that I am dating simply don’t care about any of this. They are watching how I have handled this devastation, recovered, and the fact that I accepted my own reality and am not resentful and am not looking for support from a future mate. I’m also happy despite it all – took lots of internal work to get there. Would I dump (rare) lifetime alimony for the right guy and sign a pre-nup? In a heartbeat. Ironically, the one who has my heart right now is a CFO! My long-winded point is this; my dates are looking at how I have handled the cards I’ve been dealt. They are all divorced, professional, upper middle-class men paying support of some sort. That’s the bigger issue to them than how much $$ I have or don’t. It speaks to our character and where you are in your recovery…what you value and what you are doing about it, despite a big setback. You sound like a really nice person who’s still smarting, and rightly so. But where to from here…in your mindset?
m 55
What Stacy said.
Helen 56
Christie Hartman #52, I agree 100% with everything you said. I’d only add one thing:
When a couple has been married for a substantial number of years, it doesn’t always make sense to keep score of who owes whom what. BOTH partners sacrifice a lot for each other. It’s easy for me to remember every sacrifice I made for hubby; perhaps a little less easy to remember, or even know, every sacrifice he made for me.
If one person feels that s/he is making inordinate amounts of sacrifice, or somehow didn’t get the chance to pursue a dream because of the spouse, then the couple should discuss it. Not keep on sacrificing with one’s mouth shut – because resentment builds as a result, and that poisons a relationship. It’s possible that the spouse wasn’t even aware of the sacrifice being made: not out of malice, just cluelessness.
As for Jaded: I can’t improve on what Evan advised. I would just second the commenters who suggested that you deal with the resentment first (maybe by setting up that separate bank account whose alimony payments you never have to see). Then approach dating with a fresh mind, and consider that you needn’t marry again to be close to someone – LTRs without marriage certainly exist.
still looking 57
Here’s an article from the Huffington Post that explains why men fear marriage….. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/vicki-larson/why-men-fear-marriage_b_1019408.html
J 58
I can really identify with this person. I don’t know what is wrong with the alimony laws in most states. They are certainly geared against men. I was married for 22 years to a physician who stayed home for 5 years to raise our two kids. She had an affair….filed for divorce, and demanded lifetime alimony. She said she didn’t want to work anymore and wanted to stay at home for our kids. Both are in school full time. Long story short, she got 70% of the assets ain’t return for me being on the hook for a 6 figure annual alimony for 10 years. The court system is really rigged against men in most states, but I would advise not holding that against anyone you may date. Just insist on an ironclad prenup if it ever reaches that point. I’m still bitter 2 years later.