How Do I Handle a Guy Who Gets Angry When I Won’t Have Sex With Him?

How Do I Handle a Guy Who Gets Angry When I Won’t Have Sex With Him?

I’m an EMK junkie, rely on Why He Disappeared, divorced almost 2 years after a 15-year marriage, and a mother of two teenage boys. My situation is a little different. I’m not so worried that if I sleep with a man too soon, he’ll break my heart. I’m afraid if I do, it will cloud my judgment, I will minimize warnings or look away from very important character flaws. I’m not worried that Mr. Right now is the same as my last guy; I recognize that this is my issue, so I try to go slow. I mean not freakishly slow but slower than, it seems, everyone else. Recently, after a 2nd date, I followed your advice to the letter to try to figure out if he was interested in me or for sex. But I also did it because I saw some warnings signs (an undertone of control, blaming, and maybe some jealously) and he was clearly testing my boundaries sexually. I knew if I slept with him, I’d be a goner. He was a charmer but everything was on his terms.

Well, he disappeared after he got PISSED at me. He said “you said you were “just” dating” and blatantly lied about another concern I was trying to suss out. Evan, is it wrong to use your strategies when you are “just” dating? I do want a relationship, eventually, when a nice guy with an edge comes around but until then I am dating, having fun, getting to know them so I can decide and I make that clear from the start. And does “just” dating mean that I am “just” looking for sex in the eyes of the rest of the world?

-Beth

Beth,

Your question started off really strong and you lost me somewhere in that second paragraph. So let’s try to untangle what you actually wrote.

You seem to think it makes a difference WHY you choose not to have sex with a guy. It doesn’t.

You’re wise enough to know that sleeping with someone clouds your judgment. I call it the Deception of Passion. You have sex, the oxytocin and serotonin and dopamine and pheromones start flowing, and you get irrationally attached to someone who may not be a good long-term partner.

Great. Now that we’ve established this as a fact, we’ll dig in further.

You seem to think it makes a difference WHY you choose not to have sex with a guy. It doesn’t. He doesn’t need to know. He doesn’t need to understand. These are YOUR boundaries, no matter what the reasons are. And I suspect that a big part of your problem is that you tried to EXPLAIN all of this to him somehow.

Otherwise, I don’t see how he could have exploded at you.

If you did things exactly as I coach, it would have gone something like this:

Brad reaches for your belt buckle while simultaneously reaching for his wallet.

You put a hand on his and say, “Brad, I’m really attracted to you and I am having a GREAT time right now. Just so you know, I don’t sleep with guys that I’m not in an exclusive relationship with. So as much as I want you, until you and I figure out whether we’re a couple, we’re gonna have to just stick with some fun foreplay for the night.”

Him: “Wait, you don’t sleep with anyone who is not your boyfriend?”

You: “Something like that. It’s really easy to hop into bed with someone, but things tend to get a little messy unless we know where we stand. I have this funny thing about not sleeping with a guy who is still active on Match.com. You can understand that, right, Brad?”

Him: “Yeah, I guess so.”

You: “So let’s get back down to business. We’ll figure out the rest as we go…”

And scene!

You fool around, he leaves, and the next day, he has to decide: is he into YOU, or does he just want to get laid? If he just wants to get laid, he’s barking up the wrong tree. But if he’s open to a potential relationship, he’ll call you quickly thereafter to set up another date. Together, you’ll navigate this territory, but the boundary has already been drawn.

So I don’t know where this went wrong for you, but I’m guessing your conversation didn’t go quite like that. I’m guessing you told him about the deception of passion, minimizing warning signs, keeping your options open, dating other men – all of which serves to TOTALLY destroy the moment, despite your best intentions.

You’re trying to date like a man, but you’re communicating like a woman.

The short version of what I’m saying is this: you’re trying to date like a man, but you’re communicating like a woman.

You’re trying to date around until you find the mythical “nice guy with edge”, which means you’re keeping your options open. But unlike men who do the same thing, you’re not sleeping with anybody and you’re having deep relationship discussions at precisely the wrong time. Which is what caused the latest bout of friction.

Listen, you’re entitled to do whatever you want. It’s not wrong to use my strategies when you’re just dating. They work in every situation. But it all begins with you being able to internalize the lessons and communicate your needs clearly.

Seems to me that you’re a little vulnerable, a little confused, and don’t really know whether you want to have sex outside of a commitment. And until you get clear on what you can handle, men will remain unclear on how to approach you.

To answer your question more pointedly, you can have fun with any number of guys who are not your boyfriend because you’re “just dating” until the right one comes along. And they are equally allowed to determine that since you’re not putting out, they’re going to fade away and find someone who DOES put out. This is called DATING. But if you use what I said above, the RIGHT guy will stick around and play by the rules and you won’t have to spend any time worrying about the WRONG guys who run.

4
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Comments:

  1. 1
    lenac

    I am too an EMK junkie and the book reader, however this particular rule is the one I’m having most trouble with. Unless sex is not that important to you there is a danger that you won’t be compatible in size/technique and it just won’t work in bed. It happened to me, I met an amazing “nice guy with an edge” on match, ten years older than me (in his late 30s) who was very serious and ready to settle down. However, it turned out he was completely impotent in bed and his style of love-making just wasn’t doing it for me. I had to end it (sadly), feeling completely shallow and an awful person for that. And if I had the exclusivity talk before I would have felt even worse I assume. 

    1. 1.1
      Jenn

      If you’d really been in love with the guy, and could see yourself marrying him, I’m betting you’d have given him more of a chance. I do admit that I don’t know the first thing about either sex or love (never having had either), but I have heard enough from other couples to ascertain that. Sex is awkward with a new person, no doubt about it, but the mechanics of sex don’t seem like they’d be all that different from person to person. If it’s a matter of technique adjustment, did you ever try giving him encouragement to try different ways? Or even sit down and have a frank discussion about what you needed from him physically?

  2. 2
    DT

    I’m almost too embarrassed to admit the last two guys I was with pressured me into having unprotected sex after the first time we had sex with a condom.  They badger, they persist in convincing/cajoling/coercing, even going so far as to offer me an ultimatum, until I give in.  They don’t drop the subject.  I know next time to just put on my clothing and leave. But I end up feeling sort of defeated in having sex with a guy once and then deciding to end things. But my health is more important than spending more time with a guy I feel resentful towards anyway. 
    As to the OP, I think the same dynamic exists here, unprotected sex or not.  Men are pushy.  You may not want to offer an explanation but that doesn’t seem to faze them.  They either use shaming techniques (like, oh, you’re so uptight), guilt, you once you’ve gone far but not far enough for them, persuasion, what have you.
    Women are conditioned to make things nice and pleasant, so our natural reaction when a guy gets angry, is to smooth things over.  To some men, the only way to smooth things over is to give them their way.  Maybe in their mind they feel like what they’re doing is no big deal, or they know it’s wrong but their desires take precedence over the needs and feelings of women. 

    Those of us who are easily susceptible to being pressured (this actually extends to other areas of my life), have to simply learn to have a stronger back bone. 

  3. 3
    Selena

    I’ve often thought there may be two camps: those who see sex as part of getting to know someone and see if a relationship develops and those who see sex as something that happens after a relationship has been established.  All depends on when one feels comfortable. If one isn’t comfortable having sex on a second date why should ANY explanation be necessary beyond “I’m not there yet” ? Said with a smile ideally. :)
     
    On another blog I read there are always men who claim if a woman doesn’t have sex with by the third date, they assume she isn’t interested and move on. Apparently any other kind of interest-showing doesn’t *count* – including “rounding the bases”.  I find this a bit disturbing for women because usually two people have only spent a few hours together by the third date.  That’s quite a short span to become comfortable with someone – much less be expected to be comfortable sharing your body.
     
    And as good as EMK’s advice is, the timeline for wanting to be exclusive, to be a girlfriend is going to vary from woman to woman.  There are those who want to see how the sex actually goes before making a semi-commitment, but they don’t necessarily want to be rushed into bed either.

    (Selena – if you can handle having sex before commitment, go ahead. Many women sleep with a guy and then freak out wondering if he’ll ever call again. This advice is for those women – EMK)

  4. 4
    Selena

    Exclusivity can mean different things to different people. For some, it’s merely an agreement to only date each other and see how that goes. Others interpret it as being a couple – the boyfriend/girlfriend level.  One might need more than a couple dates to determine if they are on the same page as far as exclusivity goes, and even if they want to be exclusive- whichever definition.  So while your advice is great for women who don’t handle sex before commitment very well, what about those who see sex as part of getting to know someone before committing, but NOT something they feel comfortable doing with someone they’ve only spent a few hours with?
     
    What happens if a woman follows your script on date 2 and the guy says “Sure, I want to be exclusive with you!” The outcome may not be any different than it would have been sans script. Or the woman could agree, only to find the next week she didn’t want to be exclusive to that guy.  ;)
     
    What I see with these scenarios is mainly people feeling pushed into making decisions/explanations/excuses before they’ve gotten to know each very well. Rushed – both sides. Again, it goes back to having sex when both parties feel comfortable. Why should one be expected to feel comfortable right away, or feel rejected if one wants to wait a little longer?
     
    And Evan, I’m off the market :). I’m just offering some observations.
     
     
     

    1. 4.1
      Lynn

      LOL I decided to draw my boundary around sex to be sexclusive. I was on a first date with someone who was coming on strong. I used Evan’s words – I have sex only within an exclusive relationship when we’re not dating anyone else. No pressure. 
      He quickly replied “I’m not dating anyone else right now!”.  Made me laugh. Nice try at a loophole, dude, but sorry!

  5. 5
    Tom10

    Lenac #1
    “his style of love-making just wasn’t doing it for me. I had to end it (sadly), feeling complete shallow and an awful person for that”
     
    ­I think you’re being a bit hard on yourself Lenac. I personally think it’s very reasonable to dump someone who is sexually incompatible with you if it’s very important to you. It is very difficult to improve sexual compatibility.
     
    Selena #3
    “I read there are always men who claim if a woman doesn’t have sex with by a third date, they assume she isn’t interested”
     
    The reason guys do this is because in our experience it often happens that the more a woman likes us, the quicker she will sleep with us. Almost the whole time we are dating a woman before sex we are weighing up in our mind whether she’s worth the effort to keep dating (at the risk that she’s unsure or ambivalent about how she feels about us) or whether it would be a more efficient use of our resources (time, energy and money) to move on to someone who definitely really likes us (someone who sleeps with us quickly).
     
    I personally never wait more than one or two dates because, well, there will always be someone else I could date who will have sex with me within that (my) timeframe.
     
    “I find this a bit disturbing for women…that’s quite a short span to become comfortable with women – much less be expected to be comfortable sharing your body”
     
    I see your point, but really what a guy expects is totally irrelevant. Who cares what guys expect? Women really need to do what suits them and to hell with what the guy thinks. Ironically he will respect you more for doing what you want, not what he wants.
     
    Evan
    “How do I handle a guy who gets angry when I won’t have sex with him?…The RIGHT guy will stick around and play by the rules and you won’t have to spend any time worrying about the WRONG guys who run”
     
    Can’t argue with that.
     
    But I’ve always wondered why don’t ALL women just wait as long as necessary until they’re comfortable, as women know from a young age that men like nsa sex? Because men with options will just move on, and unfortunately these are the men that women want.
     
    So the tricky thing for women is how to get a man who has the power to move on, to stick around on her timeframe. To achieve this she might have to lower her expectations.
     
    In my experience women usually take the gamble of sleeping with a man with options in the hope that he might develop feelings and stick around. I think they would be wise to listen to you and have sex when it suits her, not him. If he doesn’t like it? bye bye

  6. 6
    John

    If I was looking to just get laid, that dialogue you lay out would be music to my ears.  I would call her the next day, tell her all nice things and how I want to really pursue starting something with her. Then,  hide my profile to gain her confidence. Then she will let her guard down and have sex soon afterwards since he hit all the bullet points. Then probably fade away on her.
     
    Whenever a girl lays out the conditions of her needing to have sex, its a roadmap straight to her vagina. I can sweet talk her, and hide my profile for a week until I get what I want. Then move on. 
     
    For some reason, many women have this false sense of security that if a guy tells them he wants exclusivity and hides his profile, that he is really into her. If he does it on his own accord, then yes I would agree. But if it happens as a result of the girl telling him that’s the conditions to make her feel comfortable, then its really poor advice. Any guy who is smooth can fake it for a week or two if she lays it all out for him like that. Guys will lie just to get the notch.
     
    While in theory this is good advice, Evan, any shark can smell lots and lots of blood in the water when a girl states what she needs in order to have sex. And in online dating, there are lots of sharks. If I am with a girl and after the first date she says that she doesn’t just want to be a booty call, I know its time to put on the clean sheets. Because then I steer the conversations towards “couply” things to gain her confidence that is what I am looking for too. And then by the next date or two, she gives it up.
     
    The moral of the story is for the girl to NOT tell the guy her requirements for sex. If she doesn’t want to have sex then just don’t. No reason needs to be given. But then be prepared if by the 3rd or 4th date he stops calling you. Trust me, when a girl says she wants to be more than a booty call, or only has sex in a relationship, the con job will begin and that acting job wont have to last long to get the lay.
     
     
     

    1. 6.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Oh, John. Here’s the deal: Any schmuck can lie his way through life – say one thing, do another. Thinking about all the variables about all the bad people in the world is simply too mind boggling to consider. Imagine going out with a woman and second-guessing everything she said: her name, whether or not she has kids back home, whether she really is employed at the company she says… It’s exhausting.

      Here in civilized society, MOST non-sociopaths have a sense of decorum about such things. You may see, “I only sleep with boyfriends” as the cue to start lying your ass off, calling her your girlfriend, and saying you’re falling for her. Is this behavior possible? Of course. Thankfully, it’s rare. Because men don’t HAVE to lie to get laid anymore. As Tom10 pointed out, there’s always an easier woman just a text a way. For most people, not only is it morally abhorrent to deceive someone so blatantly under false pretenses, but it’s a significant waste of time. Easier to move along if you just wanna get laid.

      Which is why my “dialogue” has worked wonders for thousands of women who scare off men who don’t want to a) invest a lot of time in someone who is not planning on having sex outside commitment and b) say a whole bunch of false things to achieve their selfish sexual goals.

      To all the women reading this – I’m sorry on behalf of all the tools who give my gender a bad name. Seriously, John, you’ve posted here many times before. It was not at all obvious that you were an amoral liar. How do you defend this Machiavellian worldview? When I was slutting around, I would play the “don’t ask, don’t tell” game, where I wouldn’t necessarily divulge my long-term feelings at the outset of a date. But I never ever told a woman I loved her or wanted to commit to her in order to get in her pants. I think those are worlds away from each other.

  7. 7
    Judy

    It doesn’t matter the reason; no is no and you are wise to wait and see.
    here is what I think:
    he is such a boon no one wants him so he accuses women of just being serial daters. I had one say that to me on the first date. He said are you looking for a relationship? Because most girls just like to serial date. I said of course. 
    but then it became apparent why he was making that assumption! He had more red flags than a communist parade

  8. 8
    Karl S

    If the guy got pissed at you because you wouldn’t have sex on the 2nd date then he’s probably not a guy worth keeping.
    If a date is really going well, I might “test the boundaries” by dropping hints to see if she’s comfortable with going further that evening (and some are happy to). However, I’m always fully able to accept and respect a “no” answer.
    Evan’s suggestion of explaining it a certain way to keep things light and friendly might useful, but I still think getting pissed off on the 2nd date is a bit of an immature reaction from this man, regardless of you how you tried to frame things.

  9. 9
    Ruby

    I think that Beth is wondering if she did something wrong to push the man away, but I think he simply revealed himself as someone who was just looking to get laid. IMO, a man who exhibits “an undertone of control, blaming, and maybe some jealously”, and then gets pissed when sex doesn’t happen after only 2 dates, is displaying some red flags. I have news for him, even many women who are “just dating” might not want to sleep with someone after just 2 dates.

     
    As Selena wrote, many women just want to be sure that the person they are sleeping with isn’t sleeping with anyone else, not that they are necessarily an official couple. Although some women might want that reassurance as well.
     
    Whenever I’ve dated a man who disappeared after he realized that I wasn’t going to sleep with him by the 3rd date, that man was not looking for a relationship with me; he was “just dating”. A guy with any sort of long term interest isn’t going to disappear if a women says she wants to take things more slowly, as long as she makes it clear that she is interested in getting to know him better.

  10. 10
    Rose

    This man was wanting sex with a stranger. You were still a stranger to him after two dates. He wasn;t interested in you as a person, he just wanted to use your body.Would you really want to date a man who just wanted to use a womans body for sex without getting to know her as a person?
    Would you really want to date him again, let alone consider him realtionship material?

  11. 11
    nathan

    A few observations here. First off, it’s possible that Beth did an ok job of talking about her desire not to sleep with the guy, and he just flipped because he wanted some and she wasn’t going there.It’s fair to say that with some men, no matter how well you handle things, they’re gonna get upset. Because frankly, they’re operating from an entitled mindset. So, it may not be about you Beth.
     
    With that said, DT – some guys are pushy, others aren’t. If you’re finding yourself meeting a lot of guys pressuring and shaming you, it may be time to consider shifting your approach to dating up. Developing a stronger backbone is a great life asset, but that alone won’t address a pattern of attracting bro-dudes hell bent on getting nookie. One thing you might start to look out for are guys who bring up sex too much in initial conversations, either before you meet or after. Or guys who start in with the “romantic talk” right away. Dudes that roll out piles of compliments and “hey sexy, hey baby” kind of stuff are suspect in my book. A little bit of that thing is fine, but I’ve noticed that women who struggle with the kind of boundary issues you bring up are often tricked by guys who verbally ramp things up prematurely.
     
    As for me, I never much cared for casual sex, and only a couple of times slept with women after 1 or 2 dates. It just didn’t feel right to me, and I know plenty of men who think similarly. There’s never been any magical timeline in my experience. You just have to feel your way through it all, and be clear about where you are at, but also be willing to take some risks if the other person seems worth doing that. Selena’s point about the endless variations of “exclusivity” is important, and what it basically comes down to is that you can’t eliminate risk. You can only minimize it. Or eliminate stupid and unnecessary risks. That’s all.
     
    I’ve been on both sides of the fence with the flub not too long after the “exclusivity decision.” Sometimes, the very act of stepping things up to a more serious position makes you or them realize you’re not really the best match for each other. Without that step, you could linger on weeks or months not knowing for sure.

  12. 12
    SAL9000

    Hmmm. My interpretation of Beth’s question/issue is quite different. As I see it Beth will save physical intimacy for when she meets her perfect guy (“slower than anyone else” = “eventually, when a nice guy with an edge comes around“) but will platonically date non-ideal guys till then. If this is the case, well, yes, guys don’t date just to have platonic fun. My hunch is the guy felt he got played and wasn’t happy about it.

  13. 13
    starthrower68

    I think that if women go into great detail about saying, “well I’m not going to do x until y and z happen or a and b could happen” can be interpreted as passive aggression.  I’m not saying that was the OP’s intent so please don’t misunderstand. Evan is correct, the less said, the better.  A woman should have clear, firm boundaries.  Does she risk going without a date for a while?  Possibly, maybe even likely.  I look at is like this: if a guy disappears because I don’t have sex on his time table, then he’s out of my life and I don’t have to deal with him.  I do have to deal with me and do what’s right for me.  I am aware it comes with a price.  Doing the right thing always has a cost.  That’s why it’s not always easy to do.

  14. 14
    John

    Evan,
    Your dialogue has worked well for thousands of women in finding their true love. Congratulations. It has also worked well for thousands of guys who want an easy lay. My whole point is to just not verbalize such an obvious thing.
    This comment of yours is silly:
    ” Because men don’t HAVE to lie to get laid anymore”
     
    You know why its silly?  Because men still do lie to get laid. You are ignoring the fact many men will do this. Nowadays, men don’t need to lie to get laid. They need to lie to get laid faster and with less effort. 
    If a guy knows he only wants sex from a girl he will look for it to happen as quickly as possible so he spends as less time and money and energy as possible. If a girl doesn’t have your dialogue, he has no idea how long or what effort it will take so he will just move on and weed himself out.
     
    But if she has your dialogue, he can now quantify it. For a guy to give the impression she is his one and only, takes such little effort. If a small investment of time and money greases the wheel its a high return on investment for him. It happens. As much as you abhor that mindset because you never did that while you were a prolific dater, there are many guys that do have that mindset.
     
    One thing to consider is why would a girl say things like “I want to be more than just a booty call” OR “I only have sex in a relationship” . The answer is because she has already fallen victim to the guys that use her for a booty call and had sex outside of a relationship. So there is your proof that not only does it happen, but it happened to her.
    But I never ever told a woman I loved her or wanted to commit to her in order to get in her pants. I think those are worlds away from each other.
     
    I never told a woman I loved her to get in her pants. I don’t know many guys that do this either. But I sure as hell know plenty of guys that have told her he would commit to her to get sex and yet still played the field unbeknownst to her.  I am not saying I do this. I am saying that it happens a lot. And if you don’t think that is the case, you are giving a false sense of security.
     

  15. 15
    Selena

    @Tom 10
     
    I’m curious about this assertion that a woman who has sex with a man in the first few dates means she really likes him. How can one know they really like someone they’ve only spent a few hours with?  They may know they are sexually attracted. They may know they are horny. They may feel “It’s been awhile, what the hell”.  They may see potential for something beyond sex, but they can’t really know how much they like someone until they actually get to know them. If people have sex after only spending a few hours together, why would they think it means anything beyond they both wanted sex that day?
     
    There are women who won’t have sex right away with a man they are attracted to, a man they see might have relationship potential, because they like him and want to get to know him better. Not the opposite.  We know that even in 2013 there are still some fellows who hold a double standard when it comes to sex, ie: if she sleeps with him “too soon” she must do that with most of the guys she goes out with, so he’s not special and therefore she’s not special. Not all men feel that way fortunately, but how is one to know that after only a few hours in someone’s company?
     
    There are many women who get very attached after having sex and learn it’s best to wait until it looks like the guy may stick around before doing the deed. There are women like the LW Beth, who’ve found that having sex early clouds their judgement when it comes to evaluated whether the guy is a good match or not.  More tempting to ignore all those red flags if one has something sexual going. And there are women who have had sex with men they were attracted to, only to find they really didn’t like the guy all that much once they got to know him better. These are all reasons women may not want to ‘put out’ with someone they’ve known so briefly. Along with simply not being comfortable sharing something so intimate so soon.
     
    I get that men don’t want to waste time/energy/money on women who are ambivilant (or flat out uninterested) in them, but making that assessment after only two or three dates, basing it on their willingness to have sex – just seems premature and shortsighted to me.
     
    Related, many people both men and women have found situations where they had sex on dates 1,2,3 never led to a relationship regardless how much they thought they liked the other person at the time. It just isn’t a predictor of anything. Getting to know someone is what makes people choose to get into a relationship.  And it seems sometimes on dating forums there are numerous souls who don’t understand that. Hence the confusion over expectations, etc. 

  16. 16
    Stix

    Jeez…I guess women everywhere are just going to have to snap to and start building up their confidence in a REAL way.
    Some magical things happen, when a woman has a high confudence level- She can remain within her personal boundaries without being shaken by a negative reaction. She feels no NEED to explain “why?” she won’t cross that boundary. The answer will remain “Because I respect myself.”. And finally, she may enjoy pretty words, yet a confident woman is all about action. 1 or 2 weeks of pretty words and a disappearing profile will not cause her to magically step beyond a well established and nurtured boundary.

  17. 17
    Tom10

    “I’m curious about this assertion that a woman who has sex with a man in the first few dates means she really likes him…making that assessment after only two or three dates, basing it on their willingness to have sex – just seems premature and shortsighted to me”
     
    I agree that just because a woman has sex quickly doesn’t necessarily mean she really likes him (as you say, how could one possibly know that in such a short time-frame?). However, personally the biggest compliment a woman can give me is to have sex with me. If a woman has sex with me quickly I can make the following inferences:
     
    –         She’s attracted to me
    –         She doesn’t think I’m a bad guy
    –         She feels safe with me
    –         I have established where she lies on the sexual spectrum.
     
    It will take a lot longer to establish this information by waiting for her. I know that for some women sex isn’t a big deal so early sex mightn’t necessarily mean a whole lot, but my personal experience has been that sex happens quickly if she’s interested.
     
    It could well be true that women who are uncomfortable having early sex are still very interested, but that doesn’t suit me so I’m not going to wait around to find out.
     
    I suppose it just comes down to the sexual values of the two people in question. Beth is absolutely right to take as long as she needs to feel comfortable to have sex. Her man was out of line to get pissed about her boundaries; he should have been polite, wished her good luck and promptly moved along.

  18. 18
    Sparkling Emerald

    Selena 16 –  Awesome post !  You are spot on about EVERYTHING !
     

  19. 19
    Julia

    I’ve had men get angry at me for saying this, you know why its good that I gave them my boundaries because I dodged the huge bullet of a man who gets upset with a woman who won’t sleep with a man after 1-2 dates.
    NEXT!

  20. 20
    Karl R

    John said: (#15)
    “I sure as hell know plenty of guys that have told her he would commit to her to get sex and yet still played the field unbeknownst to her.”
     
    Men like that are called chronic cheaters and liars. Furthermore, there is a way to catch on to these kind of games, provided the woman bothers to look.
     
    Women who want to avoid men like you need to date men who have integrity. People with integrity display that integrity rather consistently. People who lack integrity will demonstrate that lack provided they’re given enough time to demonstrate it. (Of course, there’s no shortage of women who will overlook a lack of integrity when they’re attracted to a man.)
     
    Another clue is to pay attention to the men who seem to rush into a committed relationship too quickly. If a man appears to be telling a woman what she wants to hear, instead of telling her what he actually thinks/feels/believes, that’s at least a yellow flag.
     
    John said: (#15)
    “Nowadays, men don’t need to lie to get laid. They need to lie to get laid faster and with less effort.”
     
    That’s your idea of “faster and with less effort”? Your way (creating an elaborate fictional relationship) seems to take more time and effort than simply moving on until I found a woman who wanted no-strings-attached sex. Furthermore, I was able to avoid getting a reputation for being a liar or cheater.
     
    Evan’s advice works because most people (men and women) are sufficiently ethical that they dislike overtly lying to someone’s face. There will always be exceptions (like you).
     
    Selena said: (#16)
    “I’m curious about this assertion that a woman who has sex with a man in the first few dates means she really likes him.”
     
    It’s probably more accurate to say that the woman is really attracted to the man. My most serious relationships were with women who were sufficiently attracted to me to bend their own rules. If a woman preferred to wait, the relationship ended up being a non-starter.

  21. 21
    nathan

    John’s getting a lot of heat here, which I find really interesting. There seems to be a pretty black and white definition of ethical/not ethical man being played out here. One that I think only covers the poles. The obviously sleezy guys and the ones who have clearly developed ethics based upon a lot of self reflection and practice. This goes back to a point Evan made on the OKCupid post. That a lot of people aren’t very self aware. It takes self awareness to be consistently ethical, especially in highly charged situations like sexual encounters. The average person slips in and out of such awareness, doing their best to make the right choices, but not always succeeding because they haven’t figured themselves out well enough to think and act with clarity.
     
    I see Evan’s dialogue offering some women a place to step up that clarity. But it also can be used against them in the way John’s describing, especially if they have a flickering sense of self awareness and aren’t clear about needs and boundaries. And Karl, the man who rushes into a relationship can also be the one a woman bends her rules for because she’s significantly attracted to him. If she’s not sufficiently self aware, attraction can and often will be conflated with long term potential. Furthermore, the man who rushes into commitment may be doing the same thing. All the while also having a desire for sex as well.
     
    Mixed motives, and the inability to see them, and sort through them to get to what you really need at that time, are the hallmarks of not having enough self awareness. We’re all still responsible for our actions, regardless. But the world isn’t divided into two kinds of men, or women, or whatever. Which is why I brought up risk earlier. Because it takes a lot of time together to know if someone has integrity or whatever quality it is that you seek.

  22. 22
    Selena

    Thank you Sparkling Emerald. :)

  23. 23
    Karmic Equation

    Selena 16 wrote:

    “Related, many people both men and women have found situations where they had sex on dates 1,2,3 never led to a relationship regardless how much they thought they liked the other person at the time.”

    I’ve been on the OPPOSITE side of this. My last relationship 1year and the one before that, 6 years, began with casual sex. The 6 year relationship started as an ONS; the 1 year relationship began as a casual sex relationship for the first 4 months and then exclusive in the last 8.

    Whether one has casual sex…Doesn’t mean that there WON’T be a relationship. You can dress it up with nice words about needing time to decide on sex, but those words are only to salve your own ego/conscience/what have you. I know that my six year relationship lasted longer than a lot of other relationships, including marriages, that probably began in a more traditional way.

    Evan and I agree that only women who can have casual sex without mental or emotional issues should have it…but I think I disagree with him in using sex as a litmus test to begin a relationship.

    The litmus test should NOT be whether the GUY will wait until you’re ready to have sex with him; but rather when YOU feel you can have sex with a guy and not CHANGE afterwards. Having committed sex doesn’t guarantee that the guy will stick around if you’re not an interesting, fun, and safe person to be around (Basically what John is saying, but not in such an elegant way haha).

    Yes, men need “safety” too. They need a woman who doesn’t turn clingy, needy, and girl-friendy after sex.

    From “Why Men Marry Bitches” by Sherry Argov:

    Relationship principle 33:
    “When you aren’t mind-blown after sex, and you continue to focus on your own life, he’ll automatically start looking at you differently. Then he’ll start wanting to secure a relationship with you.”

    I don’t believe everything I read, but I can tell you that this principle has been true for me since I first started having sex. I was living this principle long before I read the book.

    Even now, I’ve been online dating only a few months and have had a dozen dates. The one guy whom I’ve had sex with (after date 2) continues to want to see me again, but I’ve told him I wasn’t interested in going further now. (I didn’t like him enough to pursue a relationship due to some rather superficial sexual fussiness on my part) — He is very attractive and is by far the most intellectual and interesting man I have EVER dated.

    As a woman, you end up in the driver’s seat if you can control your emotions* and are truly happy and whole in your life without a man.

    *While we cannot control our FEELINGS (happiness, sadness, feeling rejected, anxious, peeved, etc) — we CAN control our EMOTIONS, which is how we EXPRESS how we feel (as defined by Fusee in another post, which is a wonderful way to distinguish the two, btw).

    I have tight control over my emotions all the time. After sex is no different. Men can’t read me or how much or little I like them after sex. That totally gets me into their heads and thereby becoming “special” to them. Not by withholding sex, but being an atypical, unreadable woman afterwards.

  24. 24
    Rose

    It appears comittiment is being confused with exclusivity.
    Or the agreemennt of sexclusivity as Evan puts it.
    Seriously the wisest way to get the right man for a man to want to  commit which to me means marraige is to get to know each other over a period of time without sex only if and when you both fall in love and then have an agreed sexclusivity relationship both wanting to only have sex in a loving relationship wanting a future comittiment to each other. And then only giving back and offering a full comittiment of your time and love to a man when and if the man takes the lead and offers you his by asking you to marry him and when you have an engagment ring on your finger and wedding date set. Until that time a wise woman would not fully commit to a man as he has not offered full comiittiment to her.
    If wanting to be in a life long fully comitted realtionship with the right man for you is what you want as a woman.
    If you are happy with lots of casual flings then this doesn’t apply.
    If you are happy with being a freinds with benefits realtionship, then again this doesn’t apply.
    Or if you are happy with being a for now girlfriend hoping that the man in question may one day give you a full committiment and want to risk getting hormonally attached to the wrong man for you who will happily string you along until someone he does want to comiit to comes along then this doesn’t apply.
    Decide as a woman what it is you want and then do the best thing to get the right match for what you want.
    ONStands.
    Booty cal now and again.
    FWB
    For now girlfriend.
    Or life partner.
    Before you can say yes to what you do want you have to know what you want. And be able to keep saying no thank you and moving away from what you don’t want.
    Only the individual woman can decide where she is in her life and what she wants. And then reject what she doesn’t.
    If two people want casual sex. Then that is fine. They are both on the same page.
    For a man to go after a woman who states upfront she doesn’t feels quite sickening to me.
    That is a man with no integrity or conscience. I believe the word used is douchebag. And to me feels either misogyinistic, narcistic, or sociopathic. Not a man who is ready or able to be in a loving relationship.
    The only way to weed those out is to not have sex until a man has prooved with his actions consistenly over a long period of time that he is a man of character, integrity and cares about you as a woman before having sex with him. And 3 0r 4 dates is no time at all for mans true character to show.

  25. 25
    Julia

    Re: The conversation about commitment vs. exclusivity
     
    Marriage is the only commitment that means really anything. We as women need to stop the mindset that a boyfriend we’ve dated for 5 weeks will be our husband. Both parties reserves the right to leave for whatever reason after they become a couple. If you really can’t have sex with someone unless you are 100% committed, ie married, then you must be very honest with any man you are dating because that is a deal breaker for most people.

  26. 26
    Nathan

    Rose, how is that not giving back and fully committing until a guy agrees to marry you thing working for you? I can understand wanting to wait until marriage for sex – even if it is rare these days – but the holding back in the way you describe it seems like game playing. And not very effective game playing at that.

  27. 27
    Morris

    At the end of the day sex should be something both parties want to do.  If you want to get it out of the way to see if you are physically compatible.  Get it out of the way.  If you want to wait for XYZ reasons.  Tell him/her and wait.  You can’t do much for the losers that will lie etc to get in someones pants so it’s really not worth considering their actions.  It unfortunately comes with the territory.  Have some standards.  Have some self respect.  And stick with it.

  28. 28
    Stix

    Marriage is not the only commitment that means anything. 
    Marriage can mean nothing at all or it can mean everything, or anything in between. Truly committing to learning and growing together for an indefinite period of time through ones on heart and mind is the only commitment that means anything. 

  29. 29
    Lia

    Karl R # 21
     
    “Women who want to avoid men like you need to date men who have integrity. People with integrity display that integrity rather consistently. People who lack integrity will demonstrate that lack provided they’re given enough time to demonstrate it.
     
    Well put as always.  Thank you!
     
    When I asked a friend years ago how I would know if a guy was a good guy he said, “look, listen and pay attention”.  Maya Angelou said, “The first time someone shows you who they are, believe them.”
     
    I believe when we take our time, pay attention and trust our instincts we will be able to see what type of person we are dating.  When we get in a hurry, ignore the red flags, and deny what our instincts are telling us we pay the price.
     
    I agree with Evan (#13).  Most people who are not sociopaths do not  live their lives by lying their way through to anything they want. 

  30. 30
    Karl R

    Beth said: (original post)
    “He said ‘you said you were “just” dating’ and blatantly lied about another concern I was trying to suss out.”
    “I do want a relationship, eventually, when a nice guy with an edge comes around but until then I am dating, having fun, getting to know them so I can decide and I make that clear from the start.”
     
    I understand what you’re saying in the second sentence, and there’s nothing wrong with dating in that manner. However, I wouldn’t describe that behavior as “just dating” … and I suspect your date wouldn’t have described it that way either.
     
    Regardless of the possible miscommunication, his response indicates that you’re better off without him.
     
    But if you want to avoid miscommunications, you might want to communicate some of your current ambivalence. For example: “If someone wonderful comes along, I’d consider a serious relationship. But for now I’m just dating, having fun and getting to know to know my dates.”
     
    Beth asked: (original post)
    “does ‘just’ dating mean that I am ‘just’ looking for sex in the eyes of the rest of the world?”
     
    I wouldn’t interpret it that way. However, I would infer that you definitely weren’t looking for a relationship.
     
    Beth asked: (original post)
    “Evan, is it wrong to use your strategies when you are ‘just’ dating?”
     
    If you’re dating someone (and you don’t want a serious relationship with that man), then much of Evan’s advice is either overkill or counterproductive.
     
    For example, imagine you’ve dated a man who you have fun with, but you’d never want to marry. He gives you a call on Saturday afternoon and asks you if you want to go hear some live music Saturday evening. The man obviously hasn’t made the date a priority. You’re probably not the first woman he asked out. You certainly don’t want to reserve all your Saturday evenings on the off-chance that he might call.
     
    On the other hand, if you have no other plans, why not go? It’s more entertaining than staying home. The man (through his behavior) is making it perfectly clear that the relationship is going nowhere, and that’s exactly what you want.
     
    Take a long look at what nathan said (#22). I think self-awareness could provide a very good guide for you under these circumstances.

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