How Do I Stop Over-Analyzing How My Boyfriend Communicates?
<< Previous Pages: 1 2
As for my wife, she has only two flaws:
She has never thrown out anything ever. We have shoes from 1989, dresses from 1995, and saltines from 2003. I kid you not.
She is perpetually 15 minutes late. I don’t understand people like this. Just start 15 minutes earlier! But her family warned me about “Bridget Time” when we first met. Shockingly, it hasn’t changed in the time we’ve known each other.
That doesn’t mean that I don’t bring up her 2 bad habits all the time (MY flaw – critical,) but rather that asking her to change is like her asking me to stop being a know-it-all.
Not gonna happen.
We both have flaws. We both have to grin and bear it. And we both feel that the strengths of the relationship far outweigh the fact that I have to bring reading material wherever I go because of her slow pace, and she always has to listen to me rant about Republicans, customer service, and money. (I know: I’m a charmer!)
Anyway, I know I’ve hijacked your question to talk about myself once again, but I think it bears great relevance on your situation with your quality boyfriend.
I’m not going to defend the lapses in his behavior whatsoever. It IS inconsiderate to not call to confirm plans. It IS inconsiderate not to let you know he’s running late.
But unless you want to scrap your entire relationship for these occasionally frustrating incidents, all you can do is ask him to be more considerate with such matters in the future.
If you make something a dealbreaker, it’s a dealbreaker.
If you put up with it, it’s just a quirk.
If he loves you, he will do his best to honor your request.
And then he’ll forget, because that’s who he is.
And you’ll put up with it and make jokes about it and live a very happy life together.
Of course, you could “cut bait,” but your future boyfriend would have some intolerable characteristics as well.
If you make something a dealbreaker, it’s a dealbreaker.
If you put up with it, it’s a quirk.
Your call, my friend.
Pages: 1 2 << previous
 |
Why He Disappeared is the smart, strong, successful woman's guide to understanding men. If you want to learn how men think, and rediscover how to have meaningful relationships - all from a man's point of view - click here to learn Why He Disappeared. |
Do You Want to Attract the Partner of Your Dreams?
If so, sign up for my free dating and relationship newsletter and receive my free eBook, The 5 Massive Mistakes You're Making In Your Love Life - And How to Turn Them Around Instantly. Simple and effective advice to jumpstart your love life.
92 Comments »Filed Under Communication
cindym7878 1
Ironic how these blogs coincide with issues I have with the men I currently date! I could not wait to read your response Evan because I am dealing with the same issue with my new man! We haven’t been dating as long and I guess it makes me wonder if he is as interested as I am. I’ve brought it up once how it’s inconciderate to not just let me know you will be busy for the evening, etc and he agreed and apologized. But it only happens again and again. But when we are together, it’s great!!! I think for me, it’s I don’t want to be made a fool of. Don’t string me along if you aren’t truly interested. I agree, there will be some quirks to deal with, but in the beginning of a relationship, it’s difficult to know if these are honest quirks or signs of no interest.
Steve 2
Beth;
Your problem has nothing do with analyzing or over-analyzing. Your problem is that your BF is bad with keeping dates. He was 40 minutes late for one set of plans with you. He slept in the day he was supposed to get up earlier to meet you somewhere.
There isn’t enough information in your email to say one way or another, but it may not have anything to do with his feelings for you at all. It may just be a personal failing he has.
A few years ago I made friends with a woman who later became romantically crazy about me. All of her friends complained about her being consistently late for every single date and appointment, regardless of circumstances. She was significantly late ( more than 20 minutes ) every single time we got together. Yet, she was **NUTS** about me.
Denise 3
Beth, I agree with Evan’s response, this is an individual thing.
For me personally, the not responding to texts is not a big thing. Totally blowing off plans we had the morning of the Plans would be unacceptable to me–but that’s just me. Being contistently significantly late, i.e. 40 minutes, is another thing that I show as a sign of his character (I’m okay with up to 15 minutes if there’s no call to say he will be late, or anyone for that matter)–that’s just how I look at it.
I dated a man like this for 6 months, there were other issues, but he was an hour late for anything we did. I found it very disrespectful.
I like that you told him how it made you feel when you called on Sunday morning to find him still in bed instead of meeting you for your date. I’m with Evan, if he won’t or can’t change that aspect about him, whatever the reason and the reason doesn’t really even matter, then it’s not up to you to get him to change–either you accept it or not.
I hope it works out in your favor since it sounds like you like him and he appears to like spending time with you too!
Denise 4
#1 Cindym
Not sure how long you’ve been dating this man, but if you have not discussed being in an exclusive relationship, and it sounds like this is all relatively new, I don’t think he owes you an explanation on when he will be available or not, or why he was not available. If I was a man, I would run from a woman doing that!
(Actually, no one owes anyone anything, but that’s another discussion.)
Remember that in the first months of dating, everything should be fun and flirty–nothing serious.
Perhaps it might be good to turn this around and just focus on your life and going about your plans and what you want to do, without regard for him. If he calls and wants to do something, and you’re available, GREAT! If he doesn’t call, then who cares because you’re off doing your own thing, perhaps going out on a date with someone else or YOURSELF. Doing this is a big difference in outlook and thinking, but I guarantee if you can make this shift, you will be much happier and so will the men you end up dating. Be different from most of the women out there.
I’ll be interested to hear what others think, especially the men on the forum.
cindym7878 5
Denise
Good advice! We have only been dating for about two and a half months. We have agreed to be exclusive, but take things slow. We have talked every day since we started our relationship and it’s only happened a few times where he would say I’ll talk to you tomorrow, and then I don’t hear from him. It just happened again yesterday and that is why I’m being more sensitive to this post. I guess I look at relationships in a way that if someone is interested in you, you will know it, you won’t have to wonder. And I sorta feel like I have to wonder more than not, with this guy. He is shy and has admitted to not having a lot of dating experience since his divorce. Where I have dated a lot and feel very comfortable with men. I have been told many times to just go out and have fun, and stop trying so hard to find “husband” material!!!
Christie Hartman, PhD 6
This issue boils down to a difference in communication style. Everyone has a different way of communicating, and men, on average, communicate differently than women.
I would not toss this guy out. I’d chalk this up to a difference between you that you can work on as a couple. Talk to him in a non-judgmental way: ask him his point of view (e.g. find out why he doesn’t respond to your texts. Maybe he hates texting, or enjoys them but doesn’t feel the need to respond). Tell him how it makes you feel, and then ask for what you want. The difference may not go away, but at least you’ll learn to understand each other.
Emma 7
I had a similar issue with someone I’d also been seeing for five months – things were amazing when we were together, he was warm, affectionate and introduced me to all his friends. But in between those dates I would get a text every other day or so, but that was about it. I told him it made me upset, that it made me feel like things were on and off all time time – we talked about it a few times and then he went away for a week and wasn’t in touch the whole time he was away.
When he came back, I raised the issue again and asked him to work with me to work it out – to make us work. Instead, he said he didn’t think it was going to work. So I left.
I’m not sure what the experience has taught me, because I didn’t feel like I put pressure on him or anything, but after five months, you want to feel like things are developing in that direction I think.
Anyway, sorry for hijacking the post – I don’t think this necessarily applies in your situation, but just wanted to show the other side of the coin. Sometimes yep maybe they’re just not as into it as you are. Hurts – but I have hope there’s someone better suited to me out there.
Zann 8
I don’t see this as a difference in communication “style.” Yes, I agree men and women communicate differently, but that doesn’t mean that consideration of the other person’s feelings and their time are a non-issue. And I don’t see it as a gender issue, either, because both men and women can be poor communicators. She’s already told him how it makes her feel and how she’d prefer they communicate. Hopefully, he can likewise tell her what he prefers, and they can reach some kind of middleground and be happy together. I don’t think it’s as much about hanging loose or being “flirty-fun” as it is about simply having the wherewithal to realize that if you want to be in a relationship, you need to be willing to get outside of what works solely for you. I see it as a matter of social skills, maturity, and just plain getting along with others. But let’s be real – there’s far too much technology available to us now for anyone to realistically have any excuse for not calling or texting or twittering, or whatever, to let someone know what’s up……unless you’ve been hit by a bus, of course, or abducted by aliens.
Honey 9
I could write a book about the things that annoy me about Jake, and I KNOW he could do the same about me. But that doesn’t mean we’re not meant for each other. I don’t know anyone who is completely free of annoying habits!
Steve 10
@Zann #8
I completely agree. Showing up on time is common courtesy and a basic adult skill, other people’s forgiveness notwithstanding.
Steve 11
Emma #7:
we talked about it a few times and then he went away for a week and wasn’t in touch the whole time he was away.
When he came back, I raised the issue again and asked him to work with me to work it out – to make us work. Instead, he said he didn’t think it was going to work. So I left.
This comedy skit by the Harvard Sailing Team sort of shows what the desire of some women for frequent communication looks like to men.
Selena 12
I think the all the little things add up to someone who sees the relationship more casually than you do Beth, not different styles of communication. Why doesn’t he text you back if you ask him a question? Do you have a habit of texting him frivolous questions that don’t require an answer? If it’s something important why don’t you phone him?
You may have a boyfriend who’s simply inconsiderate in ways you will be able to overlook, (if you want to try) , but I think you may have the kind of guy Emma #7 had – enjoys your company when he’s with you, but isn’t as into it as you might think (hope) he is.
Karl R 13
Zann said: (#8)
“I don’t think it’s as much about hanging loose or being ‘flirty-fun’ as it is about simply having the wherewithal to realize that if you want to be in a relationship, you need to be willing to get outside of what works solely for you.”
That applies equally to Beth and her boyfriend.
However, I can choose to “get outside” of my normal behavior and preferences in order to get along with my girlfriend. I can’t choose to make her get outside of her normal behavior and preferences.
And the older people become, the more firmly established our habits become. I’m in my 40s; my girlfriend is in her 50s. We’re quite set in our ways. It’s a lot easier for us to accept each other as we are, rather than change ourselves to the other person’s liking.
Zann said: (#8)
“there’s far too much technology available to us now for anyone to realistically have any excuse for not calling or texting or twittering, or whatever, to let someone know what’s up”
I don’t feel like spending that much of my time calling, texting, emailing or whatever to let everyone know what’s up in my life. I let people know what’s up if they need to know it.
And if someone is always late, it’s not going to occur to them that this is something they need to tell you. (My girlfriend is one of those people.)
Don’t let the lack of communication derail your life. Last week I texted my girlfriend know that I was on the rail home. After getting no response to two texts and two voice mails (her phone was muted), I just shrugged and started walking the 3.8 miles from the rail station to her house. It was nice weather and I needed the exercise.
Do you really think I should have gotten upset with her just because she forgot to unmute her phone?
Beth said: (original post)
“Sometimes I’ll text him a question and never hear back.”
If I get one of these while I’m at work, the first thought that runs through my mind is: “Does this require an immediate answer, or can it wait until the next time I see her?” If your boyfriend is as busy as I am, he’s prioritizing based on urgency.
Beth said: (original post)
“I might take a picture of something (the beach I’m sitting on, my friends’ children) that I know he’d enjoy, and I never get an acknowledgement.”
And?
This sounds incredibly insecure. If you send a message that requires no response to someone who is busy, that’s exactly what you’re going to get.
cindym7878 14
Well stated Zann.
jennyana 15
Hi Beth,
I know exactly how you feel. I’m also clueless when it comes to dating, specially since I spent most of my 20′s on long relationships which led to nowhere. These guys called me everyday, sometimes 2-3 times, only to fall back and become cold the moment we were in a relationship.
My advice is to stay calm and observe his actions, as Evan states. No one is perfect. We all have things in which we have to compromise. As an example, I just started going out with someone that I’ve known since the beginning of the year. We’ve gone out three times in this month. I’m not in love with him, and I’m sure he isn’t either, but the times we’ve been together I’ve had a good time, and I’m sure he has too. He always thanks me at the end of the evening: I do the same. I also get a little anxious because he doesn’t call everyday, one thing I would love him to do, but I keep reminding myself that he’s not my boyfriend, only someone who I just started seeing. I don’t know what the future holds. Like you, I want quick answers, but I’ve also read what Evan says in his book and I’m trying to follow his advice. I mirror his efforts. If he calls, I answer the phone. If he texts, I text him back. Do the same and let things follow their pace.
Denise 16
It’s funny that folks are commenting on the texting habits, that to me is the least of it and the easiest to address….some people are texters and others are not, texts catch someone at that immediate moment, maybe they are involved in something else (and I also find men can usually prefer to focus on one thing at at time–note I didn’t say they can only focus on one thing at a time
.
To me, it’s the ‘we had a date all planned, and then I just blew it off without a phone call’ that is more of an issue. Part of a successful, strong relationship is a true friendship–is that being a friend to someone?
I’d like to hear others thoughts on that aspect of the post rather than the picky things.
I have been in Beth’s situation where I was beating myself up about being too picky about things, was I over reacting, was I analyzing too much–eventually I came to the realization that even if it was me, the things that were being done were big and weren’t making me feel good.
san 17
Well stated Zann. If a person makes plans he should keep them OR if he changes them, let you know about it. If he is perpetually more than 15 minutes late he is telling you HIS time is more important than YOUR time. I had a friend who was always late. After a time it became more of a control and power situation. Basically she was stating she would show up when she damn well pleased and “who made you the queen of time” as she once eloquently stated. Some things in personalities are “quirks.” Other things are just very inconsiderate.
Steve 18
@san #17
Those are the thoughts I thought when I had a friend who would show up very late for EVERYTHING. It wasn’t the truth. She didn’t think her time was more valuable than anyone else’s. She had bad & compulsive habits she just would not get up steam enough to break. Thinking like you only made me angry. Deciding that the only person I could control was myself and that my time was important to me I just stopped tolerating it. I told her that if she was more than 15 min late I would go ahead with my plans and alternate plans without her. I would go ahead, order and eat a restaurant. I would go take my seat at a movie theater. I would start my car and decide she didn’t want to come.
After missing out on a few things, she was still habitually late, but only by about 5 – 10 min.
Ruby 19
It doesn’t sound like this guy is generally inconsiderate. However, it would bother me if my date showed up 40 minutes late without calling, or if I didn’t hear back about a planned day trip. I would definitely let him know, in a calm way (as Beth days she did), that it isn’t acceptable not to call. Texting someone a question, and repeatedly not hearing back, would bug me too. In that case, I would simply STOP texting questions and sending the cute photos.
Hard to say if it means he’s just not that into Beth, or if he’s just a bit inconsiderate or lazy. All she can do is express her feelings, and see how he responds. If it becomes a pattern, she may need to reassess the relationship.
Gemma 20
Ew Beth needs to lighten up. If I’m texting my boyfriend random things throughout the day I do it because it’s fun to share things with him that make me happy; it’s not a test to see if he responds and get mad if he doesn’t.
My boyfriend likes to turn up a good 1 hour late to pick me up..but really what would I have been doing anyway? I’d planned that time to be used unproductively and happily with my boyfriend anyway :) If it makes me upset, it’s not his fault that I don’t have anything else going on to occupy myself with in the meantime. And if it’s too late to do what we planned, then we’ll do something else..big deal.
I can’t believe anyone would end a great compatible relationship over punctuality or lack of replies to pointless texts.
My best friend and I don’t reply to each other’s texts all the time (mostly because we can’t be bothered). We don’t need to always confirm plans..if she wants to lie in late, that’s her right on a Saturday. When someone is comfortable enough to be lazy (i.e. themselves) around me I take it as a compliment. Expecting best behaviour all the time is not how relationships last.
I have my boss, my doctor, my car service man and my teachers to get pissed about late appointments. My bf is the person who lets me be late and lazy and doesn’t get mad about it. And I return the favour
Karl R 21
san said: (#17)
“I had a friend who was always late. After a time it became more of a control and power situation. Basically she was stating she would show up when she damn well pleased”
If you try to change someone, make them do what you want them to do, you will create a control and power struggle every single time.
Think about it. I show up when I damn well please also. Usually that’s 5 to 15 minutes early. The control issues began because you wanted her to show up when you damn well pleased.
Steve (#18) gave several excellent ways to take the power and control struggle out of the situation. My girlfriend and I show up to dance class seperately. I get there early so I can warm up and practice. She gets there at the time it’s scheduled to start or a few minutes later. We both get there when we want to.
If your girlfriend (or boyfriend) gets upset because you didn’t put your life on hold for her, then she’s a diva personality, and you’re doing well to be rid of her.
Steve said: (#18)
“She didn’t think her time was more valuable than anyone else’s. [...] Thinking like you only made me angry.”
Every serious girlfriend of mine has been habitually late. One of them was always 20-30 minutes late (and always sincerely sorry that she was late). After the first time, I always had something to do while I waited (read, watch TV, play computer games).
I can either insist that my punctuality is the right way to be, or I can have serious relationships with women. Would you rather be right or happy?
Denise said: (#16)
“eventually I came to the realization that even if it was me, the things that were being done were big and weren’t making me feel good.”
This is a very good point. If you absolutely can’t tolerate your boyfriend’s or girlfriend’s habits (for the next several decades), then it doesn’t matter who is right or wrong. What matters is that you won’t be happy.
Joe 22
Non-notification of tardiness aside, perhaps he thinks your constant texts/pictures are just frivolous and annoying–basically spam. Do you respond to every frivolous e-mail you get?
Helen 23
Beth is overanalyzing. The more she does it, the more annoying she is likely to become to her boyfriend.
Who wants to receive random photos of beaches and other people’s children? I sure don’t – and I’m a mom! They are boring and take up too much electronic space; I not only wouldn’t appreciate them, I wouldn’t WANT them. (Probably the bf is wondering how he can politely get her to stop sending unnecessary and unwanted things like this.)
As for the examples of lateness, it seems to be more an issue of personality differences rather than neglect or bad intentions. Some people are chronically late. Others are always on time. Evan was right about categorizing this as being a dealbreaker only if she chooses to make it one.
My overall advice to her would be to stop obsessing about the bf, and occupy her waiting time with enjoyable activities rather than worrying about his arrival or sending him frou-frou.
Selena 24
I’m not interested in random photos of beaches and particularly other people’s children either and wouldn’t feel inclined to respond to that kind of thing. But does HE send her random photos of stuff that catches his eye he thinks she would enjoy? Does she do it because he does?
Beth 25
Hi all -
Thanks for contributing your comments. They’re great. Just to close the loop on this, I ended up breaking up with this man about a month ago. I thought about it very carefully and I’m still very happy with my decision. It was difficult, thought, because he was a nice guy and I know that he was not intentionally trying to make me unhappy. He was very upset when I broke it off, so I think he was interested in me. We just have different styles of communication. It turns out that his particular “quirk” is not something that I can overlook (there are plenty of other types of “quirks” that I can live with).
Let me also say, that we were not frequent/constant texters. When I asked him a question by text, it wasn’t so much “How’s your day going?”, they were like “I’m buying the movie tickets. Do you want to go to the 6:00 or 8:00 show?” Those are the types of questions I never received answers to and I spent a considerable amount of time unclear about things.
The straw that broke the camel’s back for me were back-to-back incidents. The first was that he went away on business and was gone for three days. I never heard from him in any form during that time. He was in a new job and I didn’t know his schedule, so I was hesitant to call or text him because he was meeting new clients and I didn’t want to interrupt. He also had frequent dinner meetings. I brought this up in a casual way and he basically said that it didn’t even occur to him to get in touch.
The second thing was that we had plans for a Saturday morning. He called to say that he wouldn’t be able to get to my house in time because he had his son the night before and when his ex-wife showed up, she had a flat tire and he needed to wait for AAA. No, problem – I appreciated him letting me know. We left it that I would go to the event, do my errands, and call him when I got home and he would come over later in the day. I got home at 3:30, called him and left a message “I’m home, come on over anytime.” I heard nothing. It’s now 6:30 and I call again. I get put to voicemail after the second ring. I hear nothing Sunday morning. I send a text around noon on Sunday saying “I hope you’re alright. I thought we were getting together last night. Please call me.” I get a text at 7:30 on Sunday night saying that he is “suffering through a massive hangover. Can he call me?”
Was I angry he went out with the guys because he thought that we left it that we weren’t getting together Saturday night? No. I was angry because he heard my message at 3:30 on Saturday afternoon saying I’m home and come down and he chose to ignore it. In my opinion, he should have called me and said “Hey, I misunderstood our plans. I thought we weren’t getting together so I made plans with the guys.” Instead he ignored my 2nd call and put me to voicemail.
I was fully aware that communication is not his strong suit. I saw him do similar things with family and friends (he didn’t call his mother back for 2 weeks). He doesn’t like to talk on the phone. Conversation on the phone, and sometimes in person, was difficult. We were very compatible in a lot of ways and I did enjoy my time with him. However, because I knew the way he communicated would never change and I didn’t feel like the rest of the relationship was great enough to be willing to deal with that quirk, I ended it.
I’ve been laying low for about a month now, and hope to get back out there soon. Thanks again to everyone for his/her comments!
Beth 26
I do also want to say that I can see where it seems like I was frequently texting him pictures of random/frivolous things. That’s my bad for writing it out that way. He sent me a picture now and then of something random, so I was “mirroring” his behavior and doing the same. I would say he and I texted things like that back and forth maybe a dozen times times over a 5 month period. On the whole, we weren’t texters, and we didn’t even talk to eachother everyday.
I also get the whole “being late” thing. Ten, 15, 20 minutes is fine with me, but, for me anything over 30 minutes and I just think it’s common courtesy to tell people you’re running late.
Christie Hartman, PhD 27
Beth, thanks for the addendum. I definitely underestimated the scope of this guy’s ways! Clearly you were dealing not only with someone who communicates differently, but who is, quite honestly, a total flake. This isn’t a quirk; it’s a character flaw. Glad you dumped him.
Selena 28
Hey Beth. Thanks for letting us know the denoument – enquiring minds and all that. Sorry it didn’t work out for you with him, but it sounds like you are better off truly.
Denise 29
Beth, can’t say I’m surprised….the incident described in the original question about him not responding to plans you had with him on Saturday and him wanting to sleep in didn’t sound good, either him being totally clueless in regard to basic manners and consideration or he was not to into the relationship (regardless of him being upset at the breakup).
Yes, this man could have communication issues in regard to following up, especially with the example of not calling his mother (although with a son who is 18, that’s not a big stretch!) or a character flaw. Or he could have just not wanted to be in a relationship and this was his way of exiting (saying he didn’t think about calling the woman he’s dating while he’s gone on a business trip?)–sounds like common behavior, and it’s not just men that do this.
Thanks for the ‘closure’ on this, we would have been going crazy here wondering what happened!
Good luck, Venus is back in motion–onward and upward!
Sara 30
Hi Beth,
Just wanted to say that I think you made the right decision for you and I don’t think you overreacted at all. That behaviour would have really annoyed me too ! You sound like you behaved in a really reasonable way towards him. I’m sure you will meet a man who is more thoughtful in the future.
Good luck!
Luxe 31
Hey Beth,
I’m glad you made the best choice for you. I was thinking about this thread today, and to some of the people here who are patient enough to wait for someone for more then 20 minutes.. that is pretty damn good. After 30 minutes without a phone call or text I’d probably be irritated. I’d consider what Steve does and just take off and do my own thing without them. And if this was a constant behavior, I think it would bring out the worst in me. If I were in your shoes, I would have done the same thing.
hunter 32
I used to be the way “beth” describes her boyfriend, I wasn’t really into my girlfriend.
Needless to say she is gone….
Emma 33
In my opinion, overanalyzing is never good!!
Steve 34
I’ll write it again, this issue HAD ( Beth, dumped the guy ) nothing to do with over-analyzing.
Setting dates with people, showing up on time ( within 5 min most of the time ), calling them as soon as you know you will be late, calling them sooner if you have to cancel and answering their messages in a timely manner are basic adult life skills. These things are also common courtesy.
Being turned off for being repeatedly on the dirty end of this narcissistic, childish dirty stick is not over-analyzing.
Steve 35
@Beth
When you broke up with him, did you tell him why? What did he have to say about it? I’m guessing since his relatives complain about his behavior it isn’t likely to change.
TraciT 36
Hi Everyone (especially Evan)!
I’ve been reading this blog for a while now and this is the first time I’ve ever been prompted to write so please bear with me, haha. This post spoke to me because I see myself as having been in the position of her boyfriend. I feel that this is a letter that my ex could have easily written about me.
To the Original Poster, I believe that Evan is giving some seriously sound advice, along with a lot of the responders (personally, KarlR is a favorite of mine. Karl, I’m always looking for you in the posts…stalker-ish, I know. lol). Anyway, I think the best point that sums it up was when Evan stated:
“If you make something a dealbreaker, it’s a dealbreaker.
If you put up with it, it’s a quirk.”
Like some others have said, it basically comes down to personal preference and what you think you can put up with and what you can’t. But think and choose wisely, because things that could be looked at as minor in the long run, could cost you a great love if you blow them out of proportion by thinking short-sightedly. No one can tell you what that is though, only you can know that for yourself. Probably the best way to approach it is to look at the big picture; that if this man makes you happy and you acheive a certain amount of fulfillment with him despite everything else then that’s probably all that counts. You may have “quirks” that he may also have to “put up with” and he does so because he cares about you and is happy. I guess it’s safe to assume that if the two of you are still involved. I think you can only learn which things are quirks or genuine flaws that should come to question, through time and discernment. Listen to your gut. Right now it sounds like your gut may be telling you that you might be acting too sensitive about his habits, since you say that despite his type of inconsideration(s) that you still think he’s great and you are happy with him. Would you honestly stop at just the things you mentioned, or is any habit he has that irks you going to come into question? Sounds like the things you mentioned might be things that you just have to accept about the guy…or you may risk pushing him away by being critical about something he may not see as a big deal in relation to the longevity of your relationship. Really, all you can do is try to talk to him about how it makes you feel (what he says may or may not help change your perspective, but hear him out). Understand that he might honestly try his best to accomodate you, but if it’s just the way he is then the “change” he might attempt may be marginal at best. In that kind of situation there are no guarantees. If he’s able to turn it all around for you, then great! If not, then what are you going to do? So in the end it will still come down to a decision YOU will have to make anyway…accept him the way he is, or see if you can find someone else (who will also have trade-offs, possibly worse ones). Are you really prepared to take that risk at this point? You can only control what you do and how you can react in a given situation. So it’s probably not realistic to expect him to change for you. People only really change when THEY believe they should make the change. Think about all the close friends you love and accept despite their obvious quirks or flaws. If you really love and are happy with your man, then why should the expectation be different for him?
Trust me, I’ve been on the receiving end of what I perceived was petty criticism and passive/aggressive actions to try to get me to change in my last relationship (lasted 2.5 years). He was holding these “flaws” over my head as the reasons why he didn’t feel comfortable marrying me, but in the same breath kept telling me that he was happy with me and wanted a life with me. I told him that I would try to make the changes (even though I didn’t think that I needed to change at all), but that it would probably take a lot of time for me to show consistency and recognize those opportunities to exhibit the changes in habit – even saying that did not satisfy him. Honestly, I thought that by the 2.5 year mark he should’ve already made that decision to accept me and be happy or not accept me and move on to someone that fit all of his expectations/criteria. He chose to stand his ground in thinking that it was MY responsibilty to make changes for him when and how he wanted me to make them. So, what ended up happening was I chose to cut HIM loose. (and I don’t think you want to lose a great guy because you were upset about some unanswered picture messages or for being leisurely with his time. I think we all know and love people who seem to be on a different clock or set of manners than us) It hurt me badly to break up with him because I loved him deeply and wanted to marry him, but honestly who wants to be with someone who can’t be understanding or fully accept them? So like I said, just talk to the guy and see how the conversation goes. But expect that things may not change when or how you want them to. All you can expect is the guy to love you and contribute to the relationship the best way that he can. And if at the end of the day you’re happy and can say that you have a quality man, then what more could you want? I wish you both the best of luck!
P.S. I hope all of that made sense, lol. I know I went on a tangent about myself but I just wanted to illustrate a point. I hope I’m able to help someone through my experience.
TraciT 37
Um, wow. I JUST read that Beth broke up with dude. I’m so slow. lol, Well Beth, it sounds like you made the best decision for yourself in this situation and I’m so glad for you! Sorry I just spilled my guts, haha. But like I said, hopefully it’ll be of help to SOMEone! Good luck with the next guy, Beth!
Karl R 38
Steve said: (#34)
“Setting dates with people, showing up on time ( within 5 min most of the time ), calling them as soon as you know you will be late, calling them sooner if you have to cancel and answering their messages in a timely manner are basic adult life skills. These things are also common courtesy.”
Are you familiar with Latin American culture? This “common courtesy” that you speak of is completely alien to them.
I once gave a choral performance at a mission church for migrant farm workers. (The church was in Kansas; most of the migrant workers were Mexican or Central American.) The minister who ran the church told us:
“The service is scheduled for seven pm, so show up at seven. You can warm up, then I’ll give you a tour of the facilities. We’ll start when we have enough people. It might be 30 minutes or 2 hours before we start. The service will run for about an hour, and people will continue to come in througout the service.”
We showed up at seven. The service started at eight. People were still arriving after the service had ended. What you call “the dirty end of this narcissistic, childish dirty stick” is the way that 539 million people live their lives.
You and I live our lives punctually, but that doesn’t mean that it’s the only way to live, or that it’s the right way, or that it’s even the best way. It’s a choice that we make.
If you don’t want to live with someone who runs on a different kind of schedule, it’s perfectly understandable. If you’re going to insist that they’re deliberately doing it to jerk you around, you’ll end up sounding incredibly narrow-minded.
Selena 39
@Karl #38
So people were still arriving after the service had ended? I guess then they really didn’t care about missing the service. It wasn’t that important to them. And so it goes with relationships as well.
san 40
Karl#38
Yes, different cultures have different ways of looking at time but, in this case he was an American. As an American adult he knew what was expected of him when it comes to time.
Steve 41
@Karl #38
Beth, her ex-BF, myself and you are North Americans.
Ruby 42
When you are looking for a life partner, one of the main criteria is reliability. Your partner does what he says he’s going to do, He follows through. You can count on him. He doesn’t habitually leave you hanging. Another important consideration is his ability to listen. If you tell him that something he does creates problems for you, does he at least attempt to modify his behavior or does he ignore your concerns? I’ve changed my mind from my previous comment. While I don’t think Beth’s boyfriend was deliberately trying to hurt her, he does sound immature and inconsiderate. I can see why she made the decision she did.
Selena 43
I’ve known and loved a few habitually late people. I learned how to adjust to “their time” ; if they said they would be over around 7:00, I’d expect them between 7:30 and 8:00. I also learned to lie to them. If I wanted to meet them at 7:00, I’d tell them they needed to be there by 6:00. Saved some frustration, but I noticed something funny: the same people who were chronically late for social engagements were seldom late for work. They didn’t show up at airports 30 – 60 minutes after their plane left the gate. They managed to make it in time for their weddings and births. So what does that say?
Kat Wilder 44
Well, I was going to cut the guy some slack because he’s a single dad, and that can throw a wrench in plans at the last minute.
However, sounds like she did the right thing; someone can be late for a date or forget a date or accidentally fall asleep and wake up late for one, but if these sorts of things happen all the time with no apologies, I’d be sure I brought it up and gave him a chance but then I just might walk away if it didn’t get better.
Helen 45
Beth, reading what you added in your comments: It seems that you two were in different stages of your life, and thus were incompatible, so you did the right thing by cutting him loose. He is in a transitional and busy stage: periods when he has to be the sole parent (parenting is extremely difficult, time-consuming work!), juggling duties with his ex-wife, starting a new job… You, on the other hand, seem to be in a relatively more stable position with fewer demands on your time. If you do not want to be with someone who has that many demands and hence is more unreliable when it comes to relationships, it’s something to keep in mind when you enter your next relationship.
It sounds as though you want to be someone’s first priority, and he cannot, at this stage in life, make you his first priority. It doesn’t mean he’s a bad person. But his may not be the type you want.
Karl R, that’s an interesting story about the migrant workers’ church service. There’s always a problem of political correctness when we attach values to areas where cultures differ considerably; hence the responses you received. I agree with Selena that the service wasn’t that important to them if they were arriving at the end of it – but they shouldn’t be judged for thinking it’s unimportant. Maybe what mattered more to them was socializing with friends who were still there. Most of us in North America would place more value on getting to meetings on time, but that’s because we value getting tasks accomplished and reliability (why else would we set times for meetings?) over the mere process of getting together eventually.
Sara Malamud 46
Beth, he is not going to change and you are going to lose him. ”if you cant change the problem change your attitude” You cannot tailor-make the situations in life, but you can tailor-make the attitudes to fit those situations. – Zig Ziglar
Karl R 47
Selena said: (#39)
“So people were still arriving after the service had ended? I guess then they really didn’t care about missing the service. It wasn’t that important to them.”
Think back over the last week to every time you hurried away from one engagement so you wouldn’t be late to another.
You were willing to cut those engagements a little short to avoid being late … so those engagements that you cut short must not have been very important to you, right?
Seriously, if you think back far enough, you’ll think of some situation when you left something that was important and enjoyable just so you wouldn’t be late to soething less important and less enjoyable. If an outside observer examined all of these incidents, they would come to one conclusion:
Spending time with friends, family, dates and organizations is less important to you than meeting your societal obligation to be punctual.
Our culture has a rather twisted set of priorities, eh?
This obligation is so widely accepted in our culture that it becomes a convenient excuse to leave situations that we don’t enjoy.
In Latin American culture, the obligation is reversed. There’s no pressure to be punctual … but it’s rude to leave a situation early.
So some people were two hours late to the service because they were meeting their cultural obligation to not leave another situation early. Others probably used that obligation as an excuse to avoid something that wasn’t important to them.
san said: (#40)
“in this case he was an American. As an American adult he knew what was expected of him when it comes to time.”
Steve said: (#41)
“Beth, her ex-BF, myself and you are North Americans.”
Do you conform to every cultural expectation for our society? I certainly don’t. My friends don’t. Every person that I find interesting regularly violates some cultural norm (not necessarily the same ones that I do).
People don’t violate cultural norms out of malice; there’s no need to villify them for doing so. Not unless you think society is justified in villifying you when you violate cultural norms.
If you don’t want to date someone who is always tardy (or who has 20 piercings, or who never shaves, etc.) don’t date him/her. It’s a lot more practical than trying to convince them that they are “wrong” and need to change.
Similarly, if you consistently violate a cultural norm, it may cramp you dating options. People probably won’t change to accommodate your differences.
However, to the extent that we can accept people who are different, just the way they are, we expand our dating options.
Brief tangent:
Steve, there are 111 million Mexicans who are also North Americans. san, every single Latin American …
… do I really need to finish that sentence?
Blind ethno-centrism is one of the cultural norms for our society. I just wanted to mention that before anyone started preaching the “wisdom” of conforming to cultural norms.
detha 48
Beth made the right descion for her.
Selena 49
Karl, personally I just don’t schedule myself the way you described so it’s N/A. Secondly, you rather made my point, the people who were late to the service were so because what they were doing beforehand was more important than the service. If a steak dinner was served at 7 limited to those who came before the food ran out, do you think the turnout would have been different?
Time may be seen as more flexible in some cultures than others, but people are still motivated by self-interest nonetheless.
Ruby 50
I’m not sure how you can truly compare a casual church service with numbers of people showing up at various times (even if that is acceptable in their culture) with an intimate, romantic relationship. Who’s to know how these migrant workers might behave with their spouses or close family? If you tell me that Hispanic people are lax about accountability in their personal relationships, I might find this plausible, but my Hispanic friends are no less punctual or reliable than anyone else.
Em 51
I think he’s the wrong guy for you.
I know it’s hard to want to be in a good relationship and then be bummed to find out that the other person doesn’t communicate the way you do – but that will be a big problem later on down the line so I’d heed it now.
The bottom line is that when two people are on the same page, they’re on the same page and when they aren’t, they aren’t.
It sounds like you’re on different pages communication wise – and it really bothers you to the point where you are writing for advice online.
I think you’re intuition is telling you it’s indicative of something greater. To, you a key facet of a good relationship is obviously lacking here and I personally don’t think you should stick around if it’s making you this unsettled.
Being “good” isn’t going to make him magically communicate more or in the style that suits your needs – it will only make you have to continually “discipline” yourself – trust me, the feeling won’t go away.
He’s surely not a bad guy, but he’s missing something you personally seem to need. There are guys out there who communicate constantly – look for one of them.
Karl R 52
Selena said: (#49)
“personally I just don’t schedule myself the way you described so it’s N/A.”
And you’ve never had a friend or family member cut short a get together to meet something on their schedule? I suspect that it happens so often that it barely registers when it occurs.
Selena said: (#49)
“If a steak dinner was served at 7 limited to those who came before the food ran out, do you think the turnout would have been different?”
Five times the number of people would have shown up … and you still would have had people arriving after 9pm.
Some of them may sometimes use it as an excuse to avoid something they don’t want to do. That doesn’t explain the entire population living that way all the time.
Selena said: (#49)
“the people who were late to the service were so because what they were doing beforehand was more important than the service.”
By that standard of judgment, everyone’s job is more important to them than their children. They arrange their day around their jobs first, and their children second.
But if you forced them to choose between permanently losing their job or their child, the choice would be different.
And getting back to the original point, how do you explain people like Beth’s boyfriend or Steve’s friend (#18) who are late for everything? Do you believe that nothing is important to them?
When people have deeply ingrained habitual behaviors, they’re not going to suddenly change just because they care about someone/something. That’s why everyone says that you shouldn’t get into a relationship with someone expecting them to change. It’s not because they don’t care about you. It’s becaue they won’t change, even though they do care.
Ruby said: (#50)
“my Hispanic friends are no less punctual or reliable than anyone else.”
How many generations have they lived in the U.S.?
Selena 53
@ #52
I can’t remember friends or family members “cutting short” a meeting with me – but, I’ve certainly had some give the courtesy of telling me they had later plans before we proposed to meet.
The entire population lives that way all the time? And how do you know this?
And not wanting to lose a job is part of the example I gave in my post #43. Interesting how “socially non-punctuality” does not translate to employment. A boss might not tolerate an employee showing up whenever they felt like it, therefore it becomes important to the otherwise unpunctual person to conform. Less important to conform to those with whom the consequences have less impact – financially or otherwise. Has nothing to do with the love for one’s children.
Ruby 54
Karl #52
Either born and raised in their native country or first generation.
Karl R 55
Selena, (#53)
I know these things because I tend to read and listen … and then remember what I learned years later.
The article below discusses various attitudes toward time around the world and the mindsets that accompany them. I was particularly struck by the comment about Berlin.
http://www.iranian.com/main/2009/sep/persian-delay-factor-pdf
Selena 56
Karl,
Interesting reading. And now I know if I were ever invited to a Persian dinner party to snack (and perhaps nap) before attending.
From the article:
“It is impossible to say which way of looking at time is correct. Both are appropriate–in their own environments.”
And in the environment of meeting in the US, punctuality would be considered appropriate in most situations. Or face repercussions similar to Berlin.
Steve 57
@Karl;
I don’t buy the cultural relativism argument. When people go against the *basic* customs for respect and keeping things functioning in *their* culture those people are deciding that the rules only apply to other people, not them. That isn’t the kind of person most people want to be in a relationship with.
Joe 58
Karl, if someone cuts a get together “short” to meet something else on their schedule they are not really cutting it short. Just because you might think someone wants to spend two hours with you and have them only spend one hour doesn’t mean they are cutting it short–they originally planned to only spend an hour with you, or they wouldn’t have scheduled something else.
Nancy 59
I having been dating for about 10 months and almost finished with my divorce. I am a serial dater and by the time the year is up in Jan. I will have dated about 50 men. The age range is 43 to 58 and all white collar, average to hot looking. Seventy-five percent were players, twenty percent were pathological, four percent were boring, and one percent were desirable but got away.
Internet dating is bad for women who want to find a husband (particularly at midlife) and great for men. For men it is like buffet style dining- all you can eat.
You can read all the gurus’ self-help books, won’t change a thing. Men get away with acting like jerks.
Ronnie Ann Ryan - The Dating Coach 60
Yes, everyone has annoying habits and to be in relationship requires putting up with them. But it helps to know what your deal breakers are. For some, not communicating is acceptable. For others, it’s a major assault. I always tell my dating coaching clients that if your date’s behavior impacts your self esteem, its a deal breaker. So now you’ll need to decide on a scale of 1-10, just how annoying and frequent his lack of communication and consideration are and if that is a deal breaker. Wishing you love!
Ruby 61
I might not expect a person who is habitually very late (30 minutes +), to begin showing up everywhere 10 min. early. But I might expect that person to at least try to show up earlier, say 15 min. late. I might expect them to try to call more often, and I’d hope to see some attempt at improvement. A person who doesn’t even try to change might be perceived as lazy or uncaring.
Nanvy #
Has it occurred to you that many quality people don’t want to date someone seriously who is still married and going through a divorce?
Ruby 62
That’s Nancy #59
Kaitlyn 63
The “lack of communication”, showing up late and “forgetting” about dates that the OP spoke of sounds like the guy she thought she was in a relationship with didn’t make her a priority.
If men are interested in women…they will let it be known by their actions. Going days without communicating, “forgetting” about dates/plans and being habitually late sound as though this man was not making the OP a priority.
My motto is not to make someone a priority that makes you an option. Hence, i agree with the OP that breaking up in this scenario.
And…at Nancy #59…I don’t do internet dating but men only get away with acting like “jerks” if you allow them to.
Nancy 64
Ruby- That could have been phrased a little less sarcastically and yes I understand that may be the case, but everyone’s divorce is different and should be judged on an individual basis.
Kaitlyn- I think you mean anyone can make you feel badly if you allow them to, but acting like a jerk can happen with or without allowance. First sign of jerkiness and I say “buh-bye!”
Denise 65
#64 Ruby
Don’t want to get too much off topic here, however, I think divorce is pretty much the same for everyone. The individual details and circumstances are different for everyone. However, I believe the process of ‘finding’ oneself again. finding a single life again and grieving (hopefully learning a ton from the experience too!) is pretty universal. I also believe separation is much different from actually being divorced. How people react to all this IS also unique and personal.
After having been through all this, I will not date anyone who is separated or newly divorced. I got burnt once big time with that, so I learned my lesson! (And he is an awesome man/person!)
Just my thoughts since I’ve been through it and have seen how different I am from when we physically separated to now being divorced 2 years.
Ruby 66
Nancy #64
Sorry, no sarcasm intended, just an observation.
Joe 67
I hate to be the voice of logic, but one percent (who got away) of 50 men is half a man…
Shouraku 68
@ Joe #67
I am sure that for the purpose of stating/understanding her point, it would not be unreasonable for us to round up to the nearest whole man.
Nancy 69
He was half a man
starthrower68 70
I think I struggle with the same sort of things as the OP; there are obviously, glaring deal breakers, then there are the little ones that aren’t glaring, but make you wonder if it’s a HJNTIY situation. That’s what I find frustrating. I think cindym7878 in response #1 nailed it. I don’t want to be made a fool of or strung along if he’s not interested. I’m inclined to believe guys know pretty quickly if you’re ms. right or just ms. right now.
Katarina Phang 71
Oh dear, my new man is quite like this too. When we’re together it’s great all over and he’s very affectionate and attentive (in fact he emails/texts/calls me more when I’m visiting him -like when he’s at work and I’m at is home-…isn’t it nuts?), when we’re apart he doesn’t seem to feel the need to be in touch. He’s lousy about calling (he admitted he wasn’t good talking on the phone), he answers text messages when he gets down to it, gets interrupted/bothered/irritated when I try to chat him up so a lot of times he would just simply ignore me or sign out, especially if he’s busy or not in the mood to chat (which is like most of the time).
Apparently this is a guy thing, I’ve heard it so much women complain about it. They’re just so different that they’re enjoying their single life too without care in the world while we women want to make sure that things are still okay. For them no news is good news. Small chats bore them and serve no purpose.
I take it as a quirk. As long as he gives me what I need in other ways I guess I could adjust myself to that. It would be nice though if he likes to check in with me every now and then without me having to initiate it. He’s better in answering emails though in which he can be overly sweet and reassuring. So just find means that works better with him.
starthrower68 72
I sometimes get the impression – and I admit I could be wrong – that no matter what women ask for, it’s too much.
Denise 73
#72 Perhaps because women ARE asking too much–they often ask men to be like women
. Since that is impossible, it sets the guy up for failure and the woman up for a lot of frustration. Men in general do not do this – they are much better at accepting women and ther personality for for who they are.
I believe the key to ALL of this is to be able to accept the other person for EXACTLY who they are. Men and women have instinctual traits that are not going to be changed any time soon since they have been around for millions of years. Then there’s the personality traits and character of the other person.
Yes, there can be negotiations on nuances and things that may not be working for us, like “I feel frustrated when you don’t call when you’re going to be late for dinner”. But if someone is trying to change the other person in a huge way, that’s not going to work. It’s just NOT a match and the person has to recognize that early.
I think the OP eventually did realize that the way this man was treating her was not conducive to her feeling good or being happy–and the reason really is irrelevant. Bottom line, this was NOT a match and it was time move on to someone who is (at least she didn’t waste years!)
starthrower68 74
I keeping reminding myself that Evan says the reason women are always told that we’re the ones who have to change is because we’re the ones asking the questions. i hope Evan archives his teleclass because the thing I wrestle with is, since I don’t feel I can have any hopes or ask for anything, the tendency is to be distant and a bit aloof. I know that’s not the best strategy, and I’m sure I’ll be reminded of it more than once. But there are times when you feel like you can’t win for loosing.
TraciT 75
@ Denise #73
Great response, and I agree whole-heartedly. This was what I was trying to say but you nailed it much better (and quicker, lol) than I did.
Denise 76
#75 TraciT
Thanks!
#74 starthrower
I understand what you’re saying, and have felt the same way, damned if you do and damned if you don’t. However, there is a change in overall thinking and attitude that can help.
May I suggest that at the beginning of any relationship, everything should be fun and flirty. No serious talks, no asking for anything. If you need to talk to him about something early on that’s really bugging you, he is NOT the right man.
Finally, in order to be successful, the best way is to be AUTHENTIC. To relax and 100% be yourself. A way to do that is to look at EACH interaction with a man NOT as a potential mate, but as another human being who has interesting stories and that you’d like to get to know a little better–takes the pressure right off. Be FRIENDLY and smile with everyone, men and women That includes the married guy at the grocery store behind you in line, the single guy you meet at a club or a female co-worker you pass in the hallway.
If you read on line dating profiles written by men, one of the things you will see over and over is they want women to be themselves, to be present (not in their head or three steps ahead) and to be open (vulnerable). I believe that makes him feel that his imperfections won’t be held against him and that he can FEEL warm being with you.
starthrower68 77
Denise,
I agree with your approach overall and do my best to do just what you suggest. It works very well with a guy that I would not be really attracted to but because he seems nice and harmless, then I give him a chance. It’s the ones that you really feel that spark with immediately where it becomes a problem. All the common sense and reason in the world doesn’t help if that’s going on. This would suggest to me that the guy in which I might be intensely attracted to is someone I should avoid. And of course I just met one with whom I felt that attraction and it’s an hjntiy situation so I’ve walked away and am moving on.
Denise 78
#77 starthrower68
Too funny, I was thinking about this last night. How easy it is to apply what we know in situations where there’s not a lot at stake. When we do meet someone we like though, the butterflies are going and we don’t want to ‘blow’ it.
I was in this situation in the early part of 2009, the first time in my life really. Although I had butterflies around him, I FORCED myself to be authentic. Especially at the beginning when I wasn’t in love with him and there wasn’t a lot at stake at that point.
When I was in a position to negotiate something that bothered me (and it was MINOR), I applied the communication skills I learned and it all worked out well. What I found is if it’s potentially (or really!) Mr. Right, then any minor screw ups or mistakes don’t really matter – on either side. I found that both people were forgiving. I do believe, probably mostly from my side, was that it was because we accepted each other for exactly who we were.
What is hjntiy?
starthrower68 79
HJNTINY is the acronym for He’s Just Not That Into You. I applied Evan’s criteria. This guy asked me if I needed constant reassurance, which I do not. However, it was going to be me having to constantly remind him that I exist, and I don’t care how much I like a guy, I’m not doing that. And since I’ve heard nothing from him after dropping him as a contact anywhere, I can be certain my assessment was correct.
Denise 80
#79 starthrower68
Thanks for the acronym explanation, I love the HJNTINY concept. HOWEVER, I do believe that is more appropriate when dating someone as opposed to the first date. Not to say a man/women is just not into the other person on the first date. However, when dating someone, there are common behaviors that tend to point to this happening. The problem is women (and MEN by the way) often ignore these behaviors or agonize over reasons and excuses why the man is doing that–hence HJNTINY.
I really like that you have a good boundary in regard to what behavior/treatment you will accept or not accept, and what you are willing to do and not do.
This guy asked me if I needed constant reassurance, which I do not.
Hmmmm…Of course I wasn’t there, and I don’t know you, but if this is what he said, then I think you might want to look at how you are coming off on the first date. I’m not saying you were doing this, however, NO ONE wants to be interrogated and pushed in what their intentions are in regard to the other person. For example, I want to know if you are ‘into me’ so I don’t waste my time, and this is what I expect from the man I date–maybe you’re not coming right out and saying those words, but this is the way the other person might be hearing. (Communication is not about what we’re saying, but more about how it’s being perceived/heard.) Evan’s email today talked about this and it was perfectly said – I LOVE how he presents concepts.
If this is the impression this man received on the first date, it is not a surprise that he didn’t call back. This cannot be put on HIM though.
The early time period of dating needs to be fun and flirty–NO expectations on either side (since we owe another person nothing and all relationships are voluntary).
My impression from the tone of your posts is that there is some frustration in regard to men and dating. Even some hostility and exasperation. Totally understandable since dating can involve all these negative emotions. These types of emotions and holding back can push men (and people in general) away, as people want to be around other people who are positive and happy. This may or not apply, just my thoughts!
Katarina Phang 81
I must add, since I barely show too much neediness to talk, my man has been more chatty now. He’s been expressing his feelings a lot more through emails. And he initiated the chat today (and talking direct with yahoo voice as well) and told me how much he wanted me bad and needed me. He said it all: I want you, I need you, I miss you, I love you (not quite in a row but he expressed all the things I needed to hear).
The best thing a woman can do is to trust him, back off and let him lead. It’s hard to do when you get paranoid and live in your head.
starthrower 82
@ Denise #80,
I am frustrated, mostly because I don’t really know what to do or not do. I kind of just went off the grid because all of the actions of the fellow in question – based on what I’ve learned by reading EMK’s blog – says, “I’m just not that into you”. But then a couple of days later he called wanting to know where I was, if I was ok, and the concern in his voice was genuine. I said that I was just laying low because it seemed this was a “he’s just not that into you” situation. He said it was not, explained that he’d been busy with family business etc. Ok, fair enough no problem. Except we’re back to where we were. Very limited contact, no plans to go see each other, etc. IF I happen to chat with him on Skype, he always closes with “big dating game kiss”. There is no dating, let alone relationship. Its a casual acquaintance and nothing more. I see no reason to pursue this, because I already know I can’t change anything. So I guess I’ll flirt with him but I’ll date or look for a relationship elsewhere.
Cat 83
#82, Starthrower, You’re probably frustrated because you know from reading this blog that it doesn’t matter what the guy tells you, it matters what he does. Definitely look elsewhere! And to remind you, check out this post.
starthrower68 84
@Cat, #82, believe me, I’ve heard those words in my head constantly. It’s like a mantra. He’s just not that into you…..he’s just not that into you….he’s just not that into……
Cat 85
#84, starthrower68, That shouldn’t be your mantra. It should be “I’m not into him! I’m only into guys who make me feel good, who ask me out and then follow through, who don’t leave me wondering how they feel.” That may not meet the standard definition of a “mantra”
but doesn’t it feel better than focusing so much on what he wants? Turn off the Skype. That shouldn’t be your only form of communication with a guy. And don’t flirt with anyone who makes you feel bad about yourself! Give that time to some other guy who appreciates you. The time you wasted with him on Skype, you could have been meeting someone new.
starthrower68 86
@ Cat #85, I know you’re correct. I guess I’m just not going to be available.
Denise 87
#82 starthrower
I get what you’re saying and I get that from your posts. I know how you feel, You do X, you don’t get what you want; you do Y, you don’t get what you what. What the heck?! I have been where you are, I think many of us have.
There is a different way though. I would just ask that you consider there’s a different way and be open to it. Give yourself over for X amount of time to DOING things different and see how it goes. Maybe put dating on the back burner right now and work on being the best self you can be.
Where things can be improved is by thinking totally differently. You can ONLY control yourself, NO ONE else. It sounds like you’re giving this man power over you. You’re feeling frustrated with this man because you’re trying to ‘figure’ him out, and ultimately, trying to CONTROL him (you telling him HE’S not into you is a way of trying to control him to get him to react and treat you differently–passive/aggressive).
(By the way, I was the queen of passive/aggressive behavior, I can see if from a mile away
Right in line with what Cat is saying, if this man is not giving you the attention you want, then don’t expend any more energy on him. Don’t DO anything (DOING by the way is masculine energy), don’t contact him first. If he contacts you, be pleasant and friendly. If he asks where you’ve been, you’ve been busy taking care of family things. Don’t spend a lot of time on line with him, like Cat says, that’s wasted time and energy. “It was nice chatting with you tonight, I have to go. Have a great rest of the night!” — and MEAN it of course. If he doesn’t want to step up to interview to be an employee in YOUR company, that’s fine–there are plenty of other candidates.
I see no reason to pursue this, because I already know I can’t change anything. So I guess I’ll flirt with him but I’ll date or look for a relationship elsewhere.
This is contradictory, can you see that? If you feel like he’s not stepping up to the plate, then why flirt with him? Why expend that energy on him? I’m not saying to be mean or nasty, but rather friendly and INDIFFERENT.
If you flirt with him, but then give him comments about him not being into you, that’s passive/aggressive behavior.
The key is to Absolutely look for a MAN who is capable and willing to do relationship. This is opposite of looking for a relationship.
What does it really matter where this man is in his life, whether he’s capable of a relationship and why or why not, if he’s into you or not? The bottom line is he’s not DOING the actions he needs to make you feel feminine and wanted.
I’ve heard those words in my head constantly. It’s like a mantra. He’s just not that into you…..he’s just not that into you….he’s just not that into……
YOU can change your thinking, it’s up to you to decide if you want to do that or not. It does take focus and energy, eventually though, it becomes part of who you are.
How I’ve done this for myself, is not matter what is going on, instead of going negative, I FORCE myself to put something in a positive light. Instead of “I like that guy and he’s not calling me. There must be something wrong with me -OR- there’s something ‘wrong’ with him”, I would turn that around IMMEDIATELY in my head to, “Bummer that he’s not calling me, but I enjoyed the time we did spend together. We had a fun date and I had a fun time, I’m glad I met him. Not everyone is going to be into me. I think I’ll go take a bath and then watch that romantic comedy I’ve wanted to see and enjoy a glass of wine.”
I do that with EVERYTHING in life, so much so that people have said to me that I always put a positive spin on things.
starthrower68 88
Denise, Although it’s very unpleasant to confront, you are correct.
Clare 89
Brilliant advice, Evan! And I smiled wryly to myself as I read this because her boyfriend’s flaws are my boyfriend’s flaws. Wonderful man. He skypes me every day but he rarely phones, and sometimes there are lapses which are frustrating. But he is like that with everyone, not just me.
It frustrated me a lot more in the beginning than it does now, and I made the decision that the good FAR outweighs the bad. And given that our lines of communication are more or less always open, and have been for two years, I am not going to make this a deal breaker. As Evan says, the next guy could have flaws which are as annoying or more so, and you alone know if it’s something you can live with. Instinctively, I think we want to jump on our partners flaws, but the reality is that we can learn to live with a lot if the relationship is basically a supportive, loving one.
Clare 90
(Sorry for the second consecutive post, Evan.) Beth, I’ve just read your follow-up comments, and I wholeheartedly think you did the right thing to end it. My boyfriend’s lapses in communication are not anywhere near like that; I think what your guy did veers out of the personality quirk category and over into thoughtless and inconsiderate.
As Ronnie Ann said above, the big decider is how it makes you feel. If it is just a minor annoyance, that one can learn to live with. If it impacts your self-esteem that signals something very much needs to change.
Jessica 91
I wasted a lot of time with guys who bailed and didn’t answer text messages. Beth, be with a REAL man who will do the things you like. Waiting after someone who ends up being your past sucks and you obviously deserve a man who knows what he wants. I talk by experience, and I am finally with a guy who wants the same things as me and who dedicates himself to me and CREATES time for me. He’s got his quirks, but they don’t affect my relationship with him.
Flush this fish down the toilet!
Jacqueline 92
#45 Helen:
Beth, reading what you added in your comments: It seems that you two were in different stages of your life, and thus were incompatible, so you did the right thing by cutting him loose. He is in a transitional and busy stage: periods when he has to be the sole parent (parenting is extremely difficult, time-consuming work!), juggling duties with his ex-wife, starting a new job… You, on the other hand, seem to be in a relatively more stable position with fewer demands on your time. If you do not want to be with someone who has that many demands and hence is more unreliable when it comes to relationships, it’s something to keep in mind when you enter your next relationship.
It sounds as though you want to be someone’s first priority, and he cannot, at this stage in life, make you his first priority. It doesn’t mean he’s a bad person. But his may not be the type you want.
Thanks Helen. You hit the nail on the head for me. You’ve just described my situation. My guy – 5 months dating a single dad, spends a lot of time with work, has the most beautiful giving heart. But his commitment right now is to his work, providing for his kids and being a dad. I’m not a priority, though I know in my heart of hearts without any doubt, he loves me. He has made it clear that he cannot give up what he is currently doing in his life. So our timing may be just off. As you described, yes I want that relationship, and the priority and the mutual nurturing that it takes. It’s hard because I know we have love, but we don’t really have much of a relationship due to our different circumstances.
#60 Ronnie
But it helps to know what your deal breakers are. For some, not communicating is acceptable. For others, it’s a major assault. I always tell my dating coaching clients that if your date’s behavior impacts your self esteem, its a deal breaker. So now you’ll need to decide on a scale of 1-10, just how annoying and frequent his lack of communication and consideration are and if that is a deal breaker
Thanks to you Ronnie as well. I was trying to find some experience tht I could learn from and your comment hit the spot. My guy is a wonderful person with such a good heart, it frustrates me how he doesn’t return my texts or calls, much like the OP. He’s never stood me up or will call if he is on his way and rarely late, his communication is really something to be desired. And as people have said, this is just the way he is, because his family and friends have apparently complained about his behaviour as well. Before I met this man, one of the things I’m looking for in my relationship is communication and it’s really important to me. I, too wasn’t sure whether I’m just thinking too much. But communication isn’t the only thing. As I’ve eluded to above, he just has very little room in his life for me and a relationship at the moment. He says he wants it, but my gut says he doesn’t want it enough…at least not now. In my case I don’t see this affecting my self-esteem, so much as I am not feeling that he gives me or the relationship the respect we deserve, in the context of a relationship.
I havent made a decision yet, simply because I wasn’t sure if I was overthinking things, and because when there’s love, it’s not easy to just walk away from that. I think I may just try to be CALM for a little while and just let things BE and not overthink… Let me absorb things and let things play out. I am hoping if I do that, then the answer will come to me, things might be more clear, and I’d be in a better place to make a choice at that time.