How Do You Overlook Bad Online Profiles?
Hi Evan,
As a result of reading Finding the One Online and following your advice blog I’ve become a much more savvy online dater. I have an engaging profile, attractive current pics and a positive attitude. But, the more skilled I’ve gotten at playing the online dating game the more frustrated I’ve become with the shoddy profiles that men post. I’ve changed but men haven’t. I’m still dealing with the same short, shallow, generic profiles and blurry, taken-in-the-bathroom photos. But now I have far less patience for these than I used to. I try to give guys the benefit of the doubt. I remind myself that these men haven’t had the benefit of coaching and are doing the best they know how. But, I still find myself incredibly frustrated and far more critical and dismissive. I don’t expect men to change, so how can I adjust my attitude so that I can be a more effective online dater?
Cassie
Dear Cassie,
Ah, the curse of knowing too much, being too smart, and placing ahead of the curve.
Nope, can’t say I’m familiar with it – but some dead Greek guy once observed that “an unexamined life is not worth living”.
If this is the case, you can surely kill off most everyone on Match.com.
…by letting your perception of these men dictate your feelings about online dating, you’re the one who loses.
The thing to remember is that perception is not reality, and by letting your perception of these men dictate your feelings about online dating, you’re the one who loses.
So let’s reframe:
A few months ago, a bright, creative, well-intentioned woman – let’s call her “Cassie” – has just about had it with online dating.
Her best dating prospect disappeared into thin air, and the only two emails she’s gotten this week came from fat men 25 years older who live two states away.
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69 Comments »Filed Under Online Dating
starthrower68 1
Can’t argue with anything you say, Evan. As a matter of fact, I looked at a well-written, no photo profile just yesterday. But I was completely turned off by it. One, the poster-in-question kept saying how easy on the eyes he is, but there was no picture. He overdid it in discussing his acting career, as if to say, “women you must all love me because I’m an actor”. And then there was the in-depth section about what he likes to do in the bedroom. While I completely understand men are sexual creatures, it was just a little much to be springing on women you don’t know. I’m sure that there will be plenty of issue taken with my assessment, and that’s fine. It is, after all, in the eye of the beholder.
Sandy 2
Hi Evan,
What a great eye opener for all of us with great online profiles, sorting through the misspelled, fuzzy, and bland profiles of men on the online dating sites. It’s important to be open to possibility, and I sometimes need a reminder that there could be a lot more underneath the surface (or not, but you’ll never know unless you get to know him!).
Warmly,
Sandy
Parker Lee | howtomingle.com 3
wow good stuff Marc! Reading your stuff is inspirational, you’ve definitely nailed down your market. I think I’m just going to forward all my woman readership to your advice.
Cheers!
–Parks
BeenThereDoneThat 4
@ Starthrower68
I’d be turned off by that as well. Sounds like it was too much over selling, which leaves the negative impression of a bad salesman trying to sell you a lemon.
Jennifer 5
Starthrower, I would define what you saw as a below-average profile! Full of issues.
The ‘average’ profiles I’ve seen are just full of cliches, slightly boring, an error or two (nothing overboard though). While I wish they’d taken more care with their first impression, if I find him attractive and he doesn’t have any dealbreakers/red flags, I’ll give him chance.
Honey 6
When I was doing Match, I knew pretty much from the beginning that if I held men to the same standard as my profile I’d be pretty much dateless - after all, when I was active I had TWO degrees in creative writing and was getting a PhD in rhetoric. I am pretty sure my very first profile ever said something about preferring anecdotes to adjectives.
She’s having super fun, too…
So I made the best profile I knew how, responded nicely to almost every email that I received (as long as it wasn’t sexually inappropriate), tried to draw a more interesting self out of guys who contacted me via email and the telephone, went out with lots of guys outside my comfort zone, and tried to enjoy myself. I ended up meeting my soulmate on MySpace not Match, but the skill set was so automatic by then that I didn’t even have to think about it.
Online dating rocks! My ex assistant at work is newly single and I am giving her some tips (she just joined Match)
JuJu 7
Unfortunately, I can’t agree with most of this. Here is the thing: a person capable of the most elementary reasoning would realize that the purpose of an online profile is to attract. Nor would a quality man send form letters to a hundred women at once. And an individual who sees it fit to write in text-speak will not turn out to be a closeted intellectual in reality. And if a man has nothing of substance to say in his profile, no amount of banter will elicit a meaningful conversation out of him.
And this, unfortunately, I know from experience. I have this type of personality – I give people too much of the benefit of the doubt. If you give everyone a chance, all it will result in is burnout. And btw, the kicker is, never once have I encountered an exception. Never once was I happy I gave someone unimpressive a chance because he turned out to be so fantastic once I got to know him. If your gut is telling you there is nothing there worthy of your interest, listen to it.
Honey 8
I do see what you are saying, JuJu. I went out with a lot of people (not as many as EMK, but easily 75-100 guys) off of Match, and only a handful made it more than 3 dates. Only 2 made it 3 months, and I don’t think anyone ever made it longer than that. But I think those would be the odds regardless of where you met people – and I’d rather have gone through that many guys in 3.5 years before finding “the one” than 15 or 20 years, wouldn’t you?
Blog Moderator 9
@Honey – You’re not alone with those odds! Watch Evan’s video on How Many People Are Dateable?
Joe 10
Womens’ profiles are just as bad as mens’; they have the same cliches. I don’t personally send form letters, but I can see how some guys could find some of these womens’ profiles hard to personalize a letter to her (if she’s got attractive pics but I can’t say something personal because she’s got nothing in her profile to respond to, I generally won’t bother writing at all).
starthrower68 11
Well I guess Evan has taken away my excuse to refuse to look at the “Nice guy with an edge” profiles…..
sayanta 12
you know- I’m not crazy about cliches and adjectives (if I see one more ‘work hard/play hard’ line I’m going to scream)- but still- I’ll consider the profile if there are no spelling mistakes. Spelling mistakes are the one thing I can’t STAND! I understand typos- I make them myself when posting on the blog. But these guys have the opportunity to double-check their profile for typos- edit, etc. So, all these men I see with college degrees spell like first-graders- that’s just not cool.
The other shady area- pics of the guy talking on a cell phone, or posing for the camera with a cell phone on his ear. Ummm…..what’s that about? Is that just really pretentious, or am I being super judgmental here? I’d like to know, just for my own benefit.
April Braswell 13
Hi Evan,
I so agree and appreciate your positive attitude about dating and about how, truly, the only area where we have power and control is to change ourselves and not anyone else. That is such a healthy attitude and approach. Sometimes we have become too sophisticated ourselves with being so Social Media and Web 2.0 savvy. lol indeed.
I also really like how you neither denigrate men or women. Some singles I hear really knock the opposite sex. While may all feel that way for 5 minutes a week, put that aside, right? How would being negative about the ones we want to be dating ever be truly attractive, after all.
And thank you for pointing out that online dating profiles can be great and that they are in a manner, just marketing. They are still not 100% reflective of that person.
Keep up all the great blogging you do. It is always beneficial and you are very generous with your expertise.
Happy Dating and Relationships,
April Braswell
JuJu 14
Honey, I am not saying that one should drop online dating entirely (where would such a drastic step leave us?
), but that one should be very careful who they expend their energy on.
Sayanta, in my experience, a photo with some object on or near the face (sunglasses, hat, etc.) has always been a ruse to cover up some defect or present their shape of head/face in a more favorable proportion.
Taking photos with a cell phone could be indicative of self-esteem issues, so I wouldn’t say that you are necessarily wrong to try to read anything into it. However, if this is only one photo out of several provided, and the rest of them are okay, I think you can safely let it go.
Karl R 15
JuJu said: (#7)
“a person capable of the most elementary reasoning would realize that the purpose of an online profile is to attract.”
A person who says, “I’m intelligent and have a great sense of humor,” is trying to attract others. That person just hasn’t clicked to the fact that every other person is using the same adjectives to describe themselves.
JuJu said: (#7)
“Nor would a quality man send form letters to a hundred women at once.”
Try being the average guy (or slightly above average). You send out a brief email to 5 women, and you mention something specific in each one’s profile. You get no responses. You try with 10 more women. You get two “No thanks,” and no response from the other eight women.
A lot of men conclude that they need to cast a wider net … so they email 100 women. When they switch from quality to quantity, they don’t have the time to send out anything besides a form email.
JuJu said: (#7)
“if a man has nothing of substance to say in his profile, no amount of banter will elicit a meaningful conversation out of him.”
I could easily say, “JuJu couldn’t possibly have a sense of humor. I’ve been reading her blog posts for years, and she hasn’t made me laugh once.”
Seriously. And you’ve had a lot more space to express yourself than the 4,000 characters available on Match.com.
Of course, the obvious response is that you’re not trying to be funny in this blog, therefore, your writing here is not representative of your sense of humor.
In a profile you have 4,000 characters to try to give someone an idea of who you are as a person. Your post (#7) is just a little short of 1,000 characters. So I have 4 to 5 times that space to tell you everything important about myself.
It took me about three months of rewrites to take my profile from a little above average to being something that was easily in the top 1%. I didn’t get any better at witty banter during that time, but I got a lot better at embedding that bantering style into my profile.
Honey said: (#6)
“When I was doing Match, I knew pretty much from the beginning that if I held men to the same standard as my profile I’d be pretty much dateless”
I think you have the right attitude.
And this principle applies to a lot more than profiles. If I insisted that my dates be my intellectual equals, I’d rule out 80% of the women I’ve dated. If I insisted that my dates be as energetic, I’d rule out about 90%. If I insisted that my dates be my equal on the dance floor, I’d rule out all but one. My girlfriend can carry on an intelligent conversation, she can dance, and she can keep up with me the majority of the time. More importantly, she’s a wonderful human being.
In the end, you’re dating a person, not a profile. If you put too much weight on the profile, you’ll limit your dating pool to Evan’s client base.
Honey 16
@ Karl R – Yes, and it’s important to note that not holding men to the standards of my profile didn’t mean I absolved them of being held to my standards as a human being. If I learned anything spending 12 years and $100K going to school to study writing and teaching college students in a variety of capacities for the last 10 years, it’s that you cannot possibly expect most people to enjoy writing – and how can you set yourself off to your best advantage using a tool that you fear and/or despise and/or haven’t mastered?
sayanta 17
Honey, your last line (#16) is a really good point that I’m afraid I tend to overlook- since I write myself, and find such great joy in it I guess I assume everyone will be the same. ;-p
Honey 18
@ sayanta, if my decade of teaching college students didn’t help me figure that out, every awkward conversation I’ve had on a plane while on my way to an academic conference certainly has driven it home
Mara 19
In my experiences with online dating, almost all of the guys I really liked had the most boring, generic profiles with lame pictures of themselves. To be honest, there was something about that where it ended up being they were the most cool, fun, down to earth ones. I am not talking about totally cheesy, weird profiles, stupid pick up lines, inappropriate, TMI, red flag profiles. I am talking more about your general cut and paste jobs and I enjoy working out and travel and football write ups.
I found in many cases those were the kind of guys that were great in person who yes had real personalities. Just that writing and crafting perfect profiles wasn’t their thing. In fact, I was almost turned off by the guys that were all showy and smooth at this.
I don’t thing this is true in all cases by any means, and it’s definitely a stereotype – but I think my PERCEPTION of that was that the manly cool guys are just more straight to the point and were too busy playing sports and out doing guy active things and be too busy to be crafting perfect emails and writing cheesy profiles.
And the kind of guy who did would be one more in touch with his “feelings” and feel insecure enough that he would have to really work to sell himself - and also have too much time on his hands to be spending on this thing.
I know, I know – the conclusions you draw from a profile that can be completely off base. But i actually did find guys on there that I KNEW – that were definite catches that I would have completely overlooked from their dumb, generic profiles that I knew in real life were pretty cool, funny, confident, and very successful guys.
My advice would be to rule out the ones that really strike you as weird, inappropriate, super cheesy, overtly cocky, or some big red flag. But the ones that are just sort of boring or copy/pasted feeling are worth learning more.
Honestly – my biggest problem when I was online was that people could craft entire personalities that they just were not. Online chemistry truly means nothing in person. I think it’s even worse when someone markets themselves in such an appealing way but it’s just not who they are. Better to find the guy who is warm, friendly and funny in person with a tad of guy cluelessness but without the huge ego or desperation to have written six pages on why he’s such an amazing catch.
starthrower68 20
Mara,
What you say makes sense; I admit though, that I tend to scrutinze some errors of syntax/spelling/grammar and such errors closely because I’ve been hit up by enough Nigerian internet scammers that I might scrutinize it too closely. Of course if you’ve have seen enough of such things, you learn to see patterns in those scammer profiles. There is always something about the picture and the profile that is just “off” for lack of a better term and while I can’t explain it, you can usually pick out the scammer profiles from the ones who just aren’t the best spellers and writers.
moon 21
Hmmm…I have had disappointing dates with men who could write, even!
I guess when looking at the profile I look at the whole package: looks, writing, shared interests/values, trying to find some points of connection. If their photo is them in front of the TV in a sweatshirt, they are overweight, cannot express themselves even in an e-mail, let alone having a profile that’s not full of, “live life to the fullest,” it’s true: I don’t see the point of pursuing that.
What’s interesting to me is that I have gotten many compliments on my writing and profiles, i.e., “refreshing,” “interesting,” “well-written,” etc. And then I go read theirs…ummm…don’t you want to spruce yours up a little bit? Nope, they like their sweats in front of the TV style!
moon
JuJu 22
Moon, I know precisely what you are talking about. I personally never got the following kind of letter, because I guess my profiles command respect (I mean, this would never have occurred to me had I not heard /seen the very disrespectful replies some women I know get in response to their profiles), but this one intelligent and interesting woman said some guys actually write to her, “sounds interesting… write more”. Like she is there to friggin’ entertain them or something.
sofka 23
I just read these posts and then checked my match email. I just got a new message which says “hi how are you”. Not even a question mark at the end of the sentence. Personally the spelling issue has never been a huge deal to me, it’s something I’m prepared to overlook but if the best you can do for a first email is “Hi how are you” then the lack of a question mark just adds insult to injury!
And the thing is that this guy is apparently a doctor!?
Indian Internet Dating 24
I find so many, maybe 90% of profiles online which are so poorly maintained. Spelling errors, grammer seen nowhere, pics or celebrity inserted into profile, sometimes foreign language used and all that! It’s a complete turn off…why put a profile when cannot maintain it. I always get impressed with natural self-pic profile. You need not be extra-good looking but at least you show what you are and not hide behind some dummy ideas
sayanta 25
Indian Internet Dating-
I feel your pain- are you on Shaadi, by any chance? The thing with Indian guys is that a lot of them are here on permits/work visas- and English isn’t their first language, hence the spelling errors, the Hindi mixed in with English, etc.
I repeat all this to myself when I’m looking at their profile, but I know what you’re saying- it’s still a MAJOR turnoff. I mean, surely they could get a friend whose first language is English to look over their profile, right?
Sofka-
what you’re saying has happened to me too. The guy might be a doctor whose first language isn’t English. But at the same time, since he’s practicing medicine here, he must have a decent command of the language, I assume.
Honestly, when I’m thinking about it- the ‘hi how are you’ and poor profiles kind of imply that the guy’s not really taking the whole profile thing seriously, right?
Also- don’t know if this is judgmentalism again, but if a guy says something like “I never thought I’d be online,” or “I’m just doing this because friend/parent made me” I think of it as a red flag- as in the guy’s too negative, insecure, etc. What do you think, is my assumption correct?
Patti 26
Sayanta, I think you’re assumption is correct. At least in my opinion. When a guy writes something like that in his profile, my first thought is, “Get over yourself.” I know it doesn’t make them bad people, but if you’re so ashamed (or think you’re better than, or whatever) of online dating, don’t do it. It rubs me the wrong way when I see that in a man’s profile.
Also, I don’t even respond to the “hi how are you” emails. In my opinion, it’s not the appropriate first email to send. I’ve tried responding to those guys to give them a chance and they are the worst people to try and make conversation with. It’s like pulling teeth to get them to answer with more than one or two words at a time. I think “hi how are you” is literally all their brains can come up with.
JuJu 27
Okay, Karl, now that I have a little more time (btw, you made me laugh
):
). I mean, the information is presented to us visually right there. We, the audience, shall be the judge of their looks. It is most preposterous to write these things about oneself (especially when one is aiming to attract).
A person who says, “I’m intelligent and have a great sense of humor,” is trying to attract others. That person just hasn’t clicked to the fact that every other person is using the same adjectives to describe themselves.
The problem here is hardly in using adjectives. The problem is, once again, an inability to reason. If you are so intelligent and have a great sense of humor, the way to show it is not to proclaim this about yourself, but write something intelligent and humorous. I never understood, for instance, why women (I think this is especially true of women) would, in addition to posting their pics, say in their profile how beautiful they are (especially since I almost never agreed with their assessment
Try being the average guy (or slightly above average).
I am not interested in the average guy by definition.
What I meant, however, is that a quality man would simply not find that many women he’d be interested in on a website. A quality man has a much above-average intelligence, he has standards. He could find, maybe, five women he can see himself writing to, but he would never find fifty potential matches.
As for the entire substance argument – first, your analogy doesn’t actually apply, precisely because I am not trying to be funny in my comments here, but a human being with any rational thought does try to sound intriguing in their online profiles. Seriously, what does the fact that so many people do not put the slightest effort into an online profile say about them? That they are incapable of said rational thought? How else would you explain spelling mistakes or the absence of photos (or photos that don’t actually show what a person looks like)? I mean, these are the people I should give a chance to? Why?
And by “substance” I didn’t mean the ability to write well, but what Sofka and Patti are describing above.
JuJu 28
Sayanta, there are too many things that are wrong with this statement (“I never thought I’d be online”), so no, you are not being overly judgmental.
JuJu 29
I highlighted Karl’s words in blue, but it’s not showing up for some reason.
Hope you’ll all be able to figure out what’s what.
sofka 30
Sayanta – I would agree that the whole “I never thought I’d end up on a site like this” thing is definitely off putting but I suppose it’s something I would be prepared to overlook if the guy wrote a nice email or if the rest of his profile made him look interesting. To be fair though that has happened rarely!
I suppose it just depends how much choice you have. If the choice for me is between going on a date with a guy that doesn’t sound amazing but doesn’t sound unbearable or sitting in front of the TV I’d be inclined to give the guy a try anyway. If it’s a choice between the guy and a great night out with my friends though then the guy won’t get a look in! What I don’t get is the people that would prefer to stay in sitting in front of the TV instead of meeting a so-so guy. What have you got to lose except a few hours of television and a fairly negligible sum of money!?
Blog Moderator 31
@JuJu – Sorry, the blue didn’t come through on my end. Try quotes next time. If it’s hard to understand, I’ll go back later and add some.
sayanta 32
just thought of another photo issue ;-p
Has anyone ever come across these? Pictures of guys that are cropped from the side, but you see long hair, and it’s obvious he’s cheek-to-cheek with some girl. Of all the pics these guys could have posted, it’s interesting that they posted those. It seems to smack of what I wrote above- the “As you can tell from my pics, I have no problem meeting women, so I don’t REALLY need to be online, but here I am” ‘tude.
LK 33
I agree with Juju. I have always regretted not following my gut when it comes to being judgmental about a profile. Usually people with generic profiles turn out to be generic people. I am too quirky for most generic people; and most generic people are too boring for me.
When I was doing online dating, a profile didn’t have to completely blow me away with its awesomeness, but it had to at least make me interested in meeting the person.
Sofka: I went on a LOT of online dates before I met my boyfriend. I disagree that a night out with a mediocre date is better than staying home. I love to go out and socialize, but it’s easy to burn out on mediocre dates. And down time can be a rare commodity for me!
Patti 34
Sayanta, I have the same reaction to those pics. Also, I don’t like it when the guy flat out says, “I have no problem meeting women.” I want to tell him that if he can meet women so easily, do it and leave online dating to the rest of us who don’t have such luck.
JuJu 35
Sayanta, I’ve even seen pictures of men with women that they didn’t bother to crop. This is a huge faux pas on their part, completely counterproductive to achieving their purpose.
I am not a fan of professionally taken photos (it’s just that a bit too often they are completely misrepresentative of what a person actually looks like), but at least one should have the good sense to post of a picture in which one is alone.
Karl R 36
JuJu asked: (#27)
“How else would you explain spelling mistakes or the absence of photos (or photos that don’t actually show what a person looks like)?”
sayanta said: (#32)
“Pictures of guys that are cropped from the side, but you see long hair, and it’s obvious he’s cheek-to-cheek with some girl. Of all the pics these guys could have posted, it’s interesting that they posted those.”
A lot of people don’t get photos taken specifically to use on dating sites (particularly before they start using dating sites). They use whatever photos they have on hand.
When I decided to try online dating, I had only one or two photos of myself that were less than 3 years old, and they were group photos. I’m not narcissistic enough to collect a lot of pictures of myself.
Unlike most people, I was patient enough to postpone trying online dating until I could get a friend to take some pictures of me with her digital camera. In my experience, you should take 10 to 20 pictures for every one that you want to post with your profile.
Though I have to add my favorite category of pictures: for some people, every picture of theirs was taken in a bar or club … and they’re holding a drink in their hand in every picture. Most of these people say they drink “occasionally.”
Luxe 37
@25 & @ 32 sayanta
Just never know till you actually go on that date! I think a better indicator of how a person is, is when you start doing email correspondence. You get a better idea.
I was once perusing through yahoo personals and on one guy’s title/subject line it said “willing to lie about how we met.” LoL! If that doesn’t scream ashamed, I don’t know what else would. I also have issues with guys who post pics up with other girls or had the girl cut off. I see it more of a “player” type thing though.
I’ll be honest. When I did my online profile, I thought I was being interesting. But now that I think about it, it’s pretty average. I’m a horrible writer and even worse in articulating my thoughts. Not good with words for sure. The guy I ended up going out with? His profile was just ok too. Plus I couldn’t really tell how he was going to look in person by his pictures. They were old and he looked like two different people
JuJu 38
LK #33: “I love to go out and socialize, but it’s easy to burn out on mediocre dates.”
Agreed, it’s extremely taxing to tell the story of your life over and over again, and most of the time to people who turn out to be entirely inconsequential. When I dated a lot, I actually felt like creating a website about myself and instructing everyone who is interested to read it before contacting me.
sayanta 39
JuJu-
You might be onto something with that website idea- maybe you should patent that- sounds like the future to me.
Selena 40
Re: #’s 38 & 39
Yeah. Certainly sounds like a pro-active way of marketing oneself.
Honey 41
Um, isn’t that what Match IS?
Honey 42
JuJu 43
I don’t think you got my meaning. I only meant it as a time- and energy-saving tool, not a marketing one. And only jokingly, of course.
Finding a mate is similar to interviewing for jobs in this regard – oftentimes once you find out the terms, they turn out to have been not even worth writing a resume for, but to be eventually successful, you do have to go all out every time nonetheless.
anette 44
Some of the loveliest men who I respect and whose company I really enjoy, cannot spell, have terrible grammer (written), seemed quite bland when I first met them and weren’t even that well presented when I first saw them.(visually).
And yet, getting to know them I found they are amazing guys.(These were men I met online, though not through dating websites)
Try not to over-analyze every little thing.
starthrower68 45
@JuJu,
Although your idea is tongue-in-cheek, I’ve often thought someone should start a dating site for Nigerian and Russian scammers.
JuJu 46
Star, I am not sure who those people are. What exactly is the scam? I mean, I received a few e-mails in the past (not through any dating site, just spam) from exiled Nigerian princes or something of the sort, but I am unfamiliar with scamming on the dating sites.
starthrower68 47
Well they often go to one of those stock photo websites to put on their profile and the poor grammar or syntax usually gives them away. No doubt, as we have seen in this particular discussion thread, there are plenty of bad writers out there but the trained eye can tell. There’s usually some kind of UK/Africa connection too. All I can tell you is when you see enough of them, then the flags start to jump out at you.
starthrower68 48
Speaking of red flags in profiles, I got an e-mail on Match this evening and it had several things that bothered me. Not the normal grammar/syntax errors that normally jump out at me but some other things I found troublesome:
This particular gentleman is extremely attractive, athletic, and marked income as $150K plus a year. This in and of itself is not a problem. The problem is that he took an interest in me. Do I have a self-esteem issue? No. But I’m 41, a plus-size woman, and a mother of three. Such men are not interested in someone like me. They pursue the younger hotter women because they can.
Second, he says on his profile he is a widower, yet marks that his children sometimes live at home. Really? And where are the the rest of the time?
Third, marks hair color as dark blonde. The person in the pics is very clearly not dark blonde.
I might be very cynical, but I don’t think so. I responded to the e-mail but just laid my cards right on the table. This profile just does not add up for me.
Selena 49
If people on dating sites have been known to lie about things like height, body shape, even marital status, why wouldn’t they lie about income? I can see people fibbing upward about how much they make to seem more financially successful, or possibly even downward in the hopes of avoiding golddiggers. It kinda surprises me that this “information” would be included as part of fact sheet on someone.
Has anyone dated a person online factoring in the income they stated, only to find they were …mmm…exaggerating quite a bit?
JuJu 50
The sites I use don’t ask for specific income information, but this one guy I remember tried to make an impression in our phone conversations of being this big-time entrepreneur… and then arrived on the date in a crappy car. I mean, normally I wouldn’t have even paid much attention to the car (most of the time I would not be able to say after a date what make and model car the man was driving), in that case it was just so incongruous with everything he was purporting to be. And I suppose after all the self-aggrandizing I unconsciously expected at least a Lexus or something.
Joe 51
@ anette (#44): Oh, the irony of calling people out on their spelling…
Everyone else: you do realize that with the incorporation of the Yahoo Personals crew, the Russian scammers have now been integrated into Match?
Joe 52
@ JuJu (#50): There’s nothing that says a successful businessman (successful anything, really) has to drive a Lexus.
JuJu 53
I still don’t understand how this scamming works. Do you mean to say that these individuals ask for money and people actually give it to them? For one thing, why would you even read some stranger’s story of woes?
starthrower68 54
Joe,
Which is precisely why you have to look carefully. Spelling, in and of itself does not make a guy (or gal) less valuable as a human being or potential romantic partner. However, there are patterns in the writing of the scammers that set of alarm bells and whistles. Of course that’s not the only thing that gives them away.
JuJu 55
Joe, I really did not devote any conscious thought to the guy’s success after our phone conversations. I wasn’t imagining to myself “gosh, I wonder how much money all this really translates into and what kind of lifestyle this guy has”. I just guess after all the big talk on his part I expected at least a nice car, not something so cheap-looking and low-quality.
I am certainly not saying that anyone has to drive anything.
Diana 56
To starthrower #68, good for you. It’s a fake profile. I get these emails and flirts way too often. It is veeeeery frustrating. It’s like they’re playing a game. I have sworn off of Match. I can’t help but wonder . . . do they really find people who fall for their feigned interest, and then move far enough along in the process to scam them?
Diana 57
I meant #48.
Selena 58
Which is why it seems odd to me dating sites would list income as a “criteria” with which to comparison shop for a date. Not only could someone lie about that easily, but it also doesn’t reflect assets or debt/to asset ratio. A guy like the one JuJu went out with could actually have a fairly high income, but also high child support, high credit card debt, a business operating in the red, and a balloon payment on a loan due that he may not be able to make.
Looking at someone tells you if they have been honest about their height, or shape – doesn’t necessarily tell you anything at all about their net worth, or if they pay their bills on time.
JuJu 59
Selena, that particular guy was childless, never married. A few weeks ago, actually, it turned out that we have a friend in common (I looked through the list of her friends on Facebook and he was in it), and she confirmed that the guy is not as successful as he likes to present himself. She is familiar with his situation a lot better than I.
One of the [two] sites I use asks for more general financial information, like if you own or rent, or whether you own a car. And you are free to just skip the entire section, it’s not required. I skip it because I don’t think it’s relevant. I also skip the one on sexual preferences since, if I answer honestly, it would only attract the wrong kind of attention.
One other thing about that car “incident”: I don’t know if the guy read my reaction or what, but he seemed obviously embarrassed and said he is planning on buying another car. I’ve never been particularly materialistic, it would all have been a lot more okay with me if he never tried to make a false impression in the first place. And btw, from some of the things he told me about his life, I could see the guy was pretty resourceful. Ultimately, though, I simply didn’t find him physically attractive in any case.
Joe 60
JuJu, I haven’t been scammed, so I don’t know how it works. Maybe they’re preying on lonley people, hoping they’ll fall in love with the scammer, then ask to wire $1500 to buy a plane ticket to visit?
Selena 61
Back to the income disclosure on dating sites:
What I’ve found in offline dating is that personal income is not necessarily an indication of generosity. Some people may have had the experience of dating someone who made 2,3,4 times as much money as themselves, but still expected to split the cost of dates, or wouldn’t go places that required any expenditure at all.
starthrower68 62
@Joe #60,
They’re preying on ayone they think they can get on the hook. Evidently they’ve been successful enough to keep doing it. Of course if it’s money you’re after, targeting a single parent is prolly not the best route to go. While I’m sure there are some wealthy single parents out there, the majority of us are not.
@ Selena,
I would submit that you are far above average intelligence and look deeper when it comes to income, i.e. debt ratio. If a guy fibs about his income and a woman jumps on that as a reason to be with him, neither one of them are looking very far beyond the surface.
I would also submit that if somone fudges on their income, that may set up certain expectations in the mind of the date; not that the date is necessarily a gold-digger, but they are natural conclusions to make. Obviously there are always exceptions. But until we meet someone and know them, we might draw some general conclusions at first.
JuJu 63
Joe #52: “@ JuJu (#50): There’s nothing that says a successful businessman (successful anything, really) has to drive a Lexus.”
Not to continue beating a dead horse, but I just thought of an analogy. Imagine you are corresponding by e-mail and talking on the phone with a woman who keeps stressing the importance of a healthy lifestyle for her, and then you meet in person and she turns out to be significantly overweight. And I am sure stuff like that actually does happen.
kat3281 64
I think that when is comes to the Nigerian scammers, it was more commonly successful when internet dating was new and in areas with few local choices. For both, people were more willing to travel to meet someone and spent more time developong a pseudo-relationship online before meeting. So people did fall for paying for plane tickets or wiring money, believing they found their soul mate. I think they are less successful now that people are aware of it and have many more local choices, but they must still have some success to bother trying.
For myself, I have also found that stated income and generosity do not always correlate. Men who make less than I do and have ex-wives and children often plan a nice dinner out and pay. Others, who state income twice mine with no ex/kids just want coffee, etc. or in other ways show to stingy. You really can’t know what their debt, spending habits, etc. are until you get to know them better. But personally, if a guy tells me he has kids to support and I see a stable job, hard-worker and he asks if coffee is okay or the park or something cheap, that to me is better than they guy who is simply cheap or has to qualify you for a “real money” date. Coffee often feels like a casting call and nothing else.
I would rather see boring adjectives than one paragraph profiles or negative guys “can’t believe I am internet dating; no cheaters, fatties, or drama queens” Some people are amazing writers and boring in person and vice versa, I tend towards giving people a chance if there are no red flags also. I also have learned not spend more than a few emails and a phone call or two before meeting in person, it is too easy to imagine a connection that isn’t there when you meet.
I also have found that dating now in my 30′s is much harder than it was even 5 years ago. Many of the men really just aren’t over their ex-wives, no matter who initiated the divorce or how long ago it was, it is sad really. But men who have never been married or had children don’t really get my life as a single parent and although I still try, I have not had more than a few dates with anyone who has never been married since my own divorce. But you just keep trying to improve yourself to attract what you want and takes breaks when you get burn out. I prefer that to the alternative or giving up altogether.
Karl R 65
Selena said: (#61)
“personal income is not necessarily an indication of generosity. Some people may have had the experience of dating someone who made 2,3,4 times as much money as themselves, but still expected to split the cost of dates, or wouldn’t go places that required any expenditure at all.”
I would like to make an observation about what is implied in Selena’s post.
I tithe. I give fairly regularly above and beyond my regular tithe. In addition, if a panhandler asks me for money for food, I’ll offer to buy them food (an offer which is sometimes accepted). But if I go on a date, my generosity is judged solely by what degree I spend money on the woman … someone who generally does not need my financial support.
As a man, I don’t consider paying for the dates to be an act of generosity. It’s an act of enlightened self interest.
As Evan said, “amazing people can be really average-to-poor online daters.” As a corollary, mediocre people can become very skilled daters. If you attribute generosity to someone just because they’ve learned that women expect men to pay for dates, you’re setting yourself up for disappointment….
… Unless you’re simply using “generosity” as a euphemism for “he spends money on me.”
As someone who became a skilled dater over the course of one or two years, being a nice guy or a good person doesn’t get your foot in the door. Attractiveness and dating skill were the key factors for that. Being a nice or good person did help further down the line (about the time the dating became exclusive, or a little later), but that’s meaningless if the relationship never gets to (or past) the first date.
Before I get flooded with anecdotes about how some guy was rude to the waitress and therefore showed that he wasn’t a nice guy…
A skilled dater would know that he should be courteous to the waitress (without ogling her or flirting with her), even if his natural tendencies were to be rude (or flirt, or whatever). Being unskilled hurts the jerks as much as it hurts the nice guys.
As someone who became a skilled dater, I benefitted. And since I could sometimes figure out which women weren’t skilled daters (and therefore had fewer potential dates to choose from), I could approach them and seem far more appealing than any of their other prospects. In doing so, I benefitted again. And when women who are skilled daters consciously rule out men solely because they’re not skilled daters (regardless of how they choose to rationalize that decision), I benefit again.
Evan isn’t just trying to teach skills in how to market yourself. He’s also trying to teach the skills which allow you to make conscious decisions which benefit you, not me.
starthrower68 66
Karl,
I think what a man spends on a date can work as much against him as for him; I know that as a woman, my role is to graciously accept what a man offers. But I don’t want him to “bust his budget” to impress me. This, as in all things, moderation. I want him to be smart with the money he has, whether he has a lot or he doesn’t. How much he has is not my business unless I’m married to him. But financial wisdom is indicative of other character traits, such as ability to delay gratification, maturity, etc.
And props to you for tithing! Even as a single parent, that is the first thing that comes out of my paycheck.
Joe 67
@ JuJu (#63):
That analogy doesn’t quite work. A person who constantly talks about living a healthy lifestyle but is fat isn’t quite the same thing as a person who talks about being successful but drives an ordinary car. If all he talked about was the luxury possessions he has (car, boat, mansion, etc.), you might have a point. However, you can’t extrapolate the successfulness of someone’s business from the car they drive.
Rich people don’t stay rich by spending their money.
JuJu 68
Actually, I could argue that to a businessman it is especially important to project success in every area of life, since most people construct purely superficial initial impressions.
, since I couldn’t imagine myself being attracted to the guy in any case.
But like I said earlier, this is all a moot point
Jayne - Dating Profile Help 69
Brilliant post, you are so right when you say, “the best profiles are not necessarily indicative of the best people. They’re just the best writers/marketers who understand how to stand out and differentiate themselves” Not all daters understand that if they take time to create a unique and irresistible profile they will then have a remarkable marketing tool which shows them off at their very best.
One important point I should make here is that before anyone can sell themselves successfully to others, they must absolutely be sold on themselves, and also how they feel when they write their profile will have a lot to do with what their experiences are.