How Long Should I Wait For a Real Commitment?
Hi, Evan.
I love your column and think you do a great job of answering questions and concerns with sympathy, empathy and insight. Flattery aside, I have a dilemma. I’ve been dating my boyfriend for about 3 years. I’m truly happy with him about 90% of the time. We discussed moving in together when my lease is up in October, but now I know he’s not ready. He’s really independent and values his alone time. I tell him that he can still have that if we’re living together, but he’s still not sure when he’ll be ready. That worries me.
He feels really strongly about living with me and equates it to marriage. We knew a couple who broke up after living together. I asked if that’s why he doesn’t want to move in—because he’s afraid we’ll break up and it’ll be a pain to move out. He said he’s not worried, that if we move in together, he’s sure we’ll stay together, like it’s a forever thing.
Right now we see each other 4-5 times a week, and I mostly I stay at his place. He also has this professional project that’s a big priority. He’s been working on it for more than 2 years so I don’t know if that’s also a factor in why he’s reluctant to move forward. We almost never fight, but when we do it’s always about the bigger issue: our future together. I want more, but he’s not ready. I’ve told him that I’ll wait and believe he’ll be worth it. I know this all sounds like justification, but he really has made improvements in the past year. Before me, he was in two longer-term relationships, and he said that he’s never had what we have now, that he’s never even considered marriage and kids with anyone else before and that I’m not just his girlfriend, I’m his best friend. He’s never even considered giving a girl a key to his apartment! But when he moved this past July, he let me decorate/organize his kitchen which he said was big for him because he likes to be in control of that.
I told him that, regardless of what the future holds, I won’t regret any of the time we’ve had together because I love him. So I realized that I said I’d wait for him, but I still find myself trying to pressure him to take the next step. I think I need to stop if I truly believe it when I say that I’ll wait and be patient, but I’m not sure how to do just back off and give him the space he needs to make a decision. Am I being completely foolish and just a pathetic girl? I truly believe that a lot of couples don’t have what we have, but a lot of those couples still have more commitment…and therein lies the rub… So I’m seeking an outsider’s view. Help? Thanks, Sophie
Dear Sophie,
I know you’re looking for advice, but I want to use your email as a teaching tool. See, I edited Sophie’s letter for brevity (really, I did!), where she mentioned how her relationship started…seeing each other once a week, then twice a week, then three times a week. By being patient and not putting pressure on her boyfriend, she allowed it to develop into a healthy, loving relationship that has a chance of going the distance.
Had she not taken this stance, her boyfriend would have bailed, and she would not have the chance of going the distance. So while you might think, “Yeah, but she may have wasted three years on a guy who won’t marry her,” you’d be mistaken.
By being patient, you allow a healthy, loving relationship to develop.
Sophie said herself that her relationship wasn’t a waste of time, no matter what happens next. She’s just (rightfully) insecure that her boyfriend’s afraid of taking the next step. But what course of action gives Sophie better options? Cutting him off after a few months because he’s not positive that she’s “the one”? Or patiently allowing him to fall in love with her, to consider her his best friend, to know that he can’t picture his life without her? I think the answer is obvious.
I proposed to my wife after 14 months because my girlfriend was 38, we both wanted kids, and I was a dating coach who finally figured out what was important in life.
But my story is the exception.
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85 Comments »Filed Under Dating
Katarina Phang 1
Great advice, Evan. Another thing she can do is still seeing him but decrease her level of commitment until he steps up to the plate. She should start dating other men.
That will keep her busy and less available and appear more confidence around him because other guys adore her. See how it works for a few months. And she might get lucky along the way by finding the right man whom she’s crazily attracted to who is ready and available for her.
It’s a losing battle for any woman to get attached to a man who doesn’t want to man up. And like you said, it’s all bullshit excuses he’s giving. If a man wants to do something and if he’s so into a woman and fear of losing her, he’ll do anything in his might to keep her.
Hopefully by dating, she -and eventually he- will see her real values. Don’t give in, don’t give up.
Good luck.
Eve 2
what difference will a ring make? A couple I know have just hit the 12 year mark & had their first kid. He didn’t want to get married-The End. It might not have been what she wanted but she wanted him & stayed, they’re very happy.
Lynn 3
Excellent advice, as usual Evan. But I question the *three year* milestone. Unless this is a young couple in their 20′s, just establishing their careers and generally establishing their independence, I would think that 1 – 2 years would be sufficient for commitment minded people.
Honey 4
This letter doesn’t say how old they are – if they’re still in their 20s then there’s no reason to rush. I think the “alone time” thing is a bunch of crap, though, if they’re considering having kids. You’re NEVER ALONE AGAIN after that…
Selena 5
Sophie,
He likes the life you have together just the way it is. There is no guarantee that “waiting for him” will ever result in him feeling differently. So take the focus off him. ARE YOU content enough with this together, but not-living-together arrangement? Could you live the rest of your life with him in this arrangement if it came to that?
If the answer is yes, then accept that you are not like other couples and be content with what you have. If the answer is no, then you should consider breaking it off with him, or following Katarina’s advice and dating other guys as well as him. It just depends on what you truly want. Some people believe “if it aint’ broke, don’t fix it” .
Cat 6
Honey (#5) “I think the “alone time” thing is a bunch of crap, though, if they’re considering having kids. You’re NEVER ALONE AGAIN after that…”
That cracked me up! So true!!! Not only will they not be alone, they won’t have any time! All the parents I know, whether divorced or married, run from soccer practice to karate practice to school function, multiplied by number of kids they need to chauffer… The ones who’re divorced and trying to date have very few free nights, especially on weekends. “Cat, do you want to go out to dinner? On Tuesday, two weeks from now? You’re busy? OK, how about Tuesday night in four weeks?”
Steve 7
@Eve #2
It makes a difference to the children in our culture, to have their parents married to each other ( in the present or the past ).
Zann 8
“…he let me decorate/organize his kitchen…” Oh man.
Sophie, you’re so smitten with this guy that you’re appreciative when he LETS you make his life easier. Evan said it clearly and kindly. Three years? Enough. Special work project? BS. Needs alone time? Well, who doesn’t? Many people are in live-in committed relationships and still manage to have alone time. It’s time to be proactive. If he pursues you, good for him; but even if he does — be clear about what you want and stick to it. Marriage and commitment are important to you. You’ve offered it to him and you’ve been patient. Now it’s time to put yourself first and move on to your next chapter. Best of luck.
InaccessibleRail 9
@Eve: Why should it have been all about what he wanted? It makes me concerned for her that it was his way or the highway. If the ring really didn’t make that much difference, why wasn’t he willing to give it to her, knowing how happy it would make her if he had? It also confuses me that he was willing to have a kid but not get married. You can get divorced and get someone out of your life for good (and get your freedom back) if that’s what you need to do. But if you have a kid, you’re stuck with the other parent for 18 years at least! (And that’s how long you sacrifice your freedom, too, incidentally. So that just seems like an odd decision for someone who’s commitment-averse to make.You say they’re happy now, but I have several friends and acqaintances who have been waiting seven years or more. They put on a good show, but when you get a drink or two in them, the truth comes out–and most are very unhappy and insecure in their situations. Not saying everyone should get married. Some couples really don’t want to, and that’s more than OK. But when one person wants to and one person doesn’t, that usually spells trouble.
Imperfect Love 10
At age 30, I was in a 1.5 year relationship. Had the talk with him and walked away…best decision of my life. I now have been meeting better men…and in turning back realized that he wasn’t the right one. If he was the right one, I’m sure for the both of us that he would have followed. I think there is a reason for everything. He wasn’t worth it for me to wait. It’s hard to walk away, but when you look back, you’ll know it was the right thing to do. Why would you want someone who doesn’t want you forever? It’s just common sense!
BeenThruTheWars 11
@Eve 2 – if she wants a ring, she wants a ring. Many people – men and women alike – truly want to be married. They want that standing in their family, their church, their community, as well as legally and financially. You raise a valid question for Sophie to think about; but if her answer remains, “I want a husband, not a steady boyfriend,” then seeking a traditional commitment is her prerogative.
Sophie, three years is a very long time (unless you are under 25). Generally, 18 months to 2 years is the stage where you want to seriously think about fishing or cutting bait. I agree with Lynne @3 on this, and Evan is right on the money all through his post.
Your conversation will start with some variant of, “I know I said I would wait for you to be ready indefinitely, but I’ve rethought my position on this. I am not willing to wait forever for you to make a real commitment. I love you and I want to be with you, but if that’s not in the cards for us anytime soon then let’s take a break and see other people.” Then follow through. Step back, don’t contact him, and live your own life. You should know within a couple months whether he’s going to step up to the plate – perhaps much sooner, if your relationship is “90% positive” for him, as well. If he doesn’t come to you with a ring AND a calendar, then as Evan points out, you will be free to find the man who can’t live without you, and is willing (eager!) to marry you to make sure nobody else scoops you up first.
The calendar part (setting a date and closing the deal) is important with a guy like this, who has already demonstrated that once he gets comfortable he likes to just put it in park and stick there. You don’t want to wind up with a pretty ring on your finger and a three-year, go-nowhere engagement, such that you have to have this same talk with him AGAIN six years in.
Sam 12
I’ve known a couple of successful marriages that began with the girlfriend giving her boyfriend an ultimatum: propose or I’m walking. It’s not romantic, but it ends the limbo.
I think the “he’s just not that into you” principle works here too. If he wants to be married to you, he’ll ask, and he won’t let work committments get in the way. He probably does love you more than any other girl, but he might have some issues with you. If you know you want to be married, it’s time to prod him.
A-L 13
Evan, Selena, and BeenThruTheWars have hit the nail on the head, assuming that Sophie and her boyfriend began dating when they were 25 or older. They said it so well, I’ve got nothing left to say.
Selena 14
Did I miss something? In the letter posted she doesn’t say she wants a ring, or to get married, or that he wants kids without getting married. It came across to me that she wanted to move in with him and he’s not ready.
I dunno folks, but I think being 90% happy without living together may not be as bad as some of you are making it out to be. Better than being being more unhappy living together. Which can happen, especially when one person would rather not.
M 15
@ Salena #14:
If she wants more, she is not 90% happy. I JUST broke up with my boyfriend of 1.8 years because he is “not ready” to get married, and wont be ready for 10 years, or so!! Ya, he has issues from his divorce, and has general concerns about marraige. But if I was the one for him he would work that shit out so he could keep me. It is a very lonely feeling to be with somebody you are deeply in love with and want a future with, that does not want a future with you. Feeling that way is not 90% happy. Its very sad.
3 years is more than ample time to figure out if he wants to spend the rest of his life with her.
She deserves the healthy, intimate, commited relationship that she wants. We all do. If he cant give it to her than she is not getting what she needs from this relationship and should move on to find someone that can and will give her what she needs.
Just my 2 cents
M 16
Oh ya…
…I know she said she was 90% happy, and you were just speaking to that, but I dont think she can be that happy if she really wants more. It really is a sad thing. It overshadows the positives of the relationship. So maybe their interactions are positive, but she isn’t feeling good about the relationship…thats all I was saying
Selena 17
@M#15:
It’s her last sentence that I’m thinking about: “I truly believe that a lot of couples don’t have what we have, but a lot of those couples still have more commitment…therein lies the rub…”
Suppose she does breakup with this guy because he doesn’t want to live with her, where’s the guarantee she will find someone else she is happy with 90% of the time? Who considers her his best friend as well as his girlfriend? Who wants her to live with him? She could be “wasting her time” for another x number of years with a guy who doesn’t want to make a formal committment – and she could also waste the same amount years unhappily dating man after man like apparently many people who read this blog have/are.
This is a circular argument: if he really loved her he’d give her the committment she wants; if he doesn’t give in, then he didn’t really love her. But if she really loved him, then why couldn’t she be content with having what alot of couples don’t have? And how much did she really love him if she was willing walk anyway?
It seems hard enough to find someone to truly connect with that leaving a relationship where one is happy 90% of the time might just not be worth the gamble. So it goes to her to decide: how content/discontent is she with the relationship really? Maybe you are right and she’s lying when she says she’s 90% happy. Or maybe that was just you.
Selena 18
@M #16:
For anyone in this kind of situation I believe it comes down to which is more important to them: the committment, or the person.
Personally I don’t think I could walk away from a relationship in which I was happy 90% of the time. But I’ve been in cohabitating relationships that often fell far short of that.
Ruby 19
I think you can be happy much of the time and still not want the same things out a relationship as your partner. But for many, many people those things are incredibly important: marriage, security, children, commitment beyond dating. Three years seems like enough time for the boyfriend to know.
M 20
Salena:
She is not satisfied with that level of commitment, or she wouldn’t be emailing EMK for advice. It could possibley be just me, and just about every other person that posted on this board, but the bottom line is if she is getting her needs met. It doesn’t sound like she is, so as much as she loves this guy, he isn’t meeting her needs. Someone else will.
There is nothing wrong with living with someone without marrying them, or for that matter staying a “living apart” couple, if that is what you want and need. She is saying she needs something different. If he doesn’t want to or can’t give that to her, than he’s not the one for her. She should not compromise that need to be with him or anyone. That is not “I need my morning coffee before 6 am” that is something a little more serious. You should not compromise needs to be with someone, you compromise on wants.
Yes, it is possible that she could leave him and never find someone else like him…but it’s more possible that she could leave him and find some one with similar future goals and desires that can and will make her happy.
There are a lot of fish in the sea. If you know what you want, it is not that difficult to find.
Steve 21
Popular articles state that romantic love is state of the brain and that it impairs a person’s judgment about who are in love with. These articles also state that the delicious insanity of the brain state of “romantic love” only lasts between 1 – 3 years.
So, if you believe that, 3 years doesn’t seem like a bad place to draw the line for deciding if a relationship should move on or not. The buzz has cleared and you are free to take an objective look.
Karl R 22
Sophie said: (original letter)
“I’m truly happy with him about 90% of the time.”
What’s the other 10%? Frustrated? Annoyed? Even some abusive boyfriends are great guys 90% of the time. A lot depends on what that other 10% is like.
Lynn said: (#3)
“I question the *three year* milestone. [...] I would think that 1 – 2 years would be sufficient for commitment minded people.”
I think that can vary with factors besides age. If someone is in a long-distance relationship where they only see each other once a month, that will slow things down. If someone feels urgency in starting a family, that will speed things up. For people like my girlfriend and I who don’t want kids, there’s no rush.
However, I don’t see any of those factors in Sophie’s letter.
Selena said: (#17)
“Suppose she does breakup with this guy because he doesn’t want to live with her, where’s the guarantee she will find someone else she is happy with 90% of the time?”
I’ve always believed that I could always do at least as well as I have in previous relationships. There are always tradeoffs (better in one area, not as good in another), but on an overall level, I have repeatedly done at least as well (or left because I hadn’t). That standard has moved up over the years because a couple girlfriends were distinctly better than anyone I’d ever dated before.
I can’t guarantee that this will hold true for other people. A couple other factors may have contributed to my success. I have improved over the years: more attractive, more confident, better job/income (not the most important traits, but they open options). Furthermore, since I don’t want kids, I have the luxury of time. If it takes a year or two to find another great girlfriend, that’s preferable to spending years with someone who doesn’t meet that standard.
My situation is not comparable to Sophie’s, so I can’t tell you whether she can do as well (or better). Based on my experiences, my knee-jerk reaction is that she (or anyone else) can find someone else who is as good.
JB 23
Without knowing these people’s stats ie: ages?,prior marriages?,kids? etc…. it’s impossible to know what to tell them because there’s so many variables. We need more info on all these “abstract/real situations”???
Obviously it’s alot easier at 25 to cut and run and meet someone “new” and “fall in love” all over again. At 38-44…. good luck with that….LOL
@Cat # 6 ….LOL That’s the story of my life,meeting or NOT meeting women on or offline who are so busy with their kids they can’t even make a date for 2 weeks from now…lol ………….NEXT !
Helen 24
There’s another reason for Sophie to make herself less available: that is that someone who is so available (either male or female) is just not attractive or someone you can easily respect. Katerina Phang mentioned this in the first comment. Sophie is definitely coming off as a doormat in her letter. I don’t say this to condemn her, because to a certain extent, society encourages all women to be self-sacrificial. But it’s not good for us, and neither is it desirable to men.
Making herself less available to this waffling boyfriend, taking a step back, will indicate respect for herself as well as providing him the distance he needs to make a decision, either in favor of or against taking the relationship to the next level. No matter what happens, it is better for both parties.
Selena 25
Maybe her being not happy with him 10% of the time is enough reason for him not to want her living with him. And for her to re-think why she wants to live with him anyway.
Christie Hartman 26
This is a good example of an exception to the 90% Rule. You can be happy in a relationship 90% of the time, which is quite good, but if the relationship isn’t moving forward at a pace faster than, say, a snail’s, that 10% will be the Deal-Breaker. Three years? This dude sounds like a true Commitmentphobe. Shit or get off the pot. Avoiding your fears isn’t going to make them go away!
“I’ve told him that I’ll wait and believe he’ll be worth it.”
That’s fine for a while, but it has to have a time limit, and you’ve reached it. Why should he change if he doesn’t have to? Time to move on, Sophie. Hopefully he’ll face his fears and come after you.
Katarina Phang 27
Luxe, I’d recommend her either:
1. have the honest talk, that she can’t risk losing more years without getting what she really wants, so she will need to get out there and let other men who are ready and willing to step up to the plate find her. It’s only fair. She can say that she will only have sex with him but she will be open to other guys courting her.
2. Just do it anyway, show him with action by withdrawing. He’ll get the message.
Whatever she feels comfortable with. The idea is not to put one’s eggs in one basket anymore. Three years is enough time.
Luxe 28
@26 ROFL. Love the quote there!
@24 Helen
I don’t get how you make yourself more unavailable. By just not going to see him as often? By going out with friends more? That’s the only way I could think up of if I wanted to be come more unavailable to someone. Someone here mentioned to break up with him and date him and other men. I don’t see how that would work. I also don’t see how dating other men without a clean break would work, which is what I got out of post #1.
Selena 29
Re:#28
Ofcourse if she did decide to see other men, she risks him not going along with that idea and breaking it off completely with her. And if she was prepared for that, why not just go ahead and make a clean break?
Christie Hartman 30
I can see the benefit of stepping back rather than just walking away, as Katarina and others have suggested. But it’s much easier said than done. You have to be disciplined. And it’s tough to be open to new people when your heart is still the original partner. A clean break done with kindness, and still staying in touch (to remind him of what he’s missing), may be the best way.
But can she find someone else she’s compatible with who will commit? You bet she can.
Katarina Phang 31
A clean break is always easier said than done. Sometimes decreasing level of commitment is good enough and workable for both. Like in my case with my husband. I met my new guy while still dating him. It works for me (and bet for him too…granted somebody else might snatch me away sometime soon). It makes me less needy and anxy and allows him to come to me and initiate all the contacts.
Guys value their freedom more than love, initially. When they have overcome the fear of losing their freedom by giving them a taste what it may feel to them losing love, they will hopefully start to rearrange their priorities. And women can’t do it by clinging to them.
So this is why dating as many guys help. It gives her the sense of empowerment and her boyfriend a space to think things through while seeing her far more attractive for the scarcity factor (less available) and more self-confidence (the goddess/diva vibe).
It’s a winning strategy for both
Selena 32
I agree that dropping down a level is easier said than done, because one changes the dynamic when deciding to do that. There is a difference in being partners who live together, to * just dating*. And there would be a difference between spending 4-5 nights together every week to dating other people. If this woman chose to try it, she would have to be prepared that her boyfriend(ex-boyfriend?) would be free to court other women as well. And staying in touch (to remind him of what he’s missing), may not be the best way if he becomes involved with someone else. How would she feel then?
All these “strategies” are basically a form of trying to give the guy an ultimatum, “Let me move in with you, or I’ll walk”. And hope he gives in and allows her to move in. And as is the nature of ultimatums: when you give one, it’s not only to the other person, it’s to yourself as well. Does she really want to walk if he doesn’t take the bait? Maybe she is that dissatisfied and she should. BUT…it seems to me a better strategy would be to have someone who wanted you to live with him – not trying to coerce, or finagle him to do so. For whatever reason(s) this guy doesn’t want her in his home fulltime, and if he did give in (so as not to lose her), what makes anyone think their living together relationship would be happier? He might turn out to be resentful, and that 90% happy on her part would drop despite getting what she wanted.
So that brings her back to the crux of it: would she be happier staying in the relationship she has? Or would she be happier done with it? Which is more important: the *committment*, or the man?
Since she wrote the letter months ago, it would be nice if she wrote back in with her thoughts on the situation now.
The InBetweener 33
If you’re ever dating a person that thinks being married is more important than being with you, that person MIGHT NOT love you.
I hear a lot of so called “NEEDS” vs. “WANTS” but no one “NEEDS” to be married. People CHOOSE/WANT to be married, so they get married. However, there are a lot of people that ARE NOT MARRIED, yet they still continue to live. Go figure.
NEEDS are things you CANNOT live without. WANTS are things you can live without but covet. People “NEED” food, water, air; etc., but NO HUMAN can really claim to “NEED” to be married. If someone claims to love you, but then says, “We can’t continue on because we NEED to be married” they might not really love you (the person) they might just “LOVE” the idea of being married, which is why you hear, “I need to be married by the age of XX – after we’ve dated for X amount of years”. Which is why, sadly, people become interchangeable in these situations – if not you, then somebody else. How would it make you feel if the person you were with told you that if you did not do “XYZ” that they would find someone else who will?
Love doesn’t give ultimatums or ask you to choose between them and you. Love doesn’t walk away from you to see if you “claim” to love them enough to “CHASE” them. Love only knows how to give, it never takes, it never demands and it isn’t selfish.
With that said, I’d rather be wanted (someone wants/chooses to be with me) than needed (someone claims to need me for some reason or another). Remember, no one needs you to live and you don’t need anyone to live either.
Selena 34
Re: #32
And I suppose it’s still a winning strategy if the guy decides he doesn’t want chase his ex if she’s dating other guys, and finds himself someone else instead. That’s the gamble the woman takes when she employs this empowering strategy.
If Sophie wants someone she can live with 7 days a week instead of 5, I’m sure she will find that someone. And hopefully she will be more than 90% happy with the new guy.
Katarina Phang 35
Selena, obviously one takes this strategy taking into account that she’ll be happier having more options rather than in a “half-baked” relationship that doesn’t give her what she really wants deep down.
If he can’t take it, he knows what to do. But you’ll never know if you just settle and accept things even when they bother you so much. At least both parties will get a better picture after all these experiments of what they really want and what they’re bound to lose. It’s better than stifling status quo.
All is fair in love and war.
And Inbetween, are you saying that women are not supposed to expect/want marriage? That they can’t have both love and marriage. What a limiting belief that is!!! The “need” to be in a committed relationship (marriage) is inherent in most women (or even men). It’s perfectly okay to expect and want it, especially if she/they want to have kids.
Selena 36
Katarina,
I’ve read Rory Raye’s blog and I think the strategy of circular dating may work quite well for some women before a serious relationship is established. I don’t see it working as well in 3 yr. relationship where the two people love each other and spend 5 days out of 7 together. How is that a “half-baked” relationship? It’s hard to go backward successfully. You and your husband perhaps being an exception.
From the letter, I didn’t get the impression the writer Sophie, was experiencing as much angst over “stifling status quo” as you and some of the other commenters are crediting her with. She says she’s happy 90% of the time. She understands that other couples, who have a “commitment” may not have what she and her lover have. My impression is that she was questioning whether she should be content with her relationship, not that she desperately wasn’t. Maybe she isn’t happy 90% of the time. Maybe she’s just trying to convince herself she is. Who knows? Be nice if she would write in and clarify wouldn’t it?
And all IS NOT fair in love and war. If only it were that simple.
Quite frankly since you ARE married and dating other men, I find your “advice” suspect at best.
Katarina Phang 37
Selena, I’m NOT technically married…sorry to burst your bubbles here. We’re separated and considering reconciliation. Please delay your judgment here. He’s my “husband” only because we are not legally divorced.
I talk to my new guy more than him these days and I feel great. Less conflict to me, at least.
You don’t know if the 10% of her being unfulfilled is the most basic thing she wants in relationship and I can imagine if it is (so it’s not actually not really 10% but more likely 50%). It’s not hard to understand. As a woman I want what she wants also.
No matter how wonderfully we get along 90%, if he doesn’t want what I want: marriage/family, it’s a deal breaker.
It’s really that simple. The fact that she wrote Evan in the first place is a strong indication she’s not fundamentally happy and needs more. What can a person do when she’s feeling stuck? Right, try a different approach as we have given here. The idea is you need to stir up the boat to really know what you really want and find out if you can change the status quo.
You call it ultimatum, whatever…. You need to resort to it at one point or another when other ways don’t work. I call it sticking to your values/principles. Do you suggest settling instead? I don’t think so.
JuJu 38
I am actually kinda confused by this advice: Sophie was right to be patient initially, but she is not right anymore? To me this whole situation sounds like she gave someone who wasn’t crazy about her from the beginning a chance to see how wonderful she really is, only, years later, he is apparently still not convinced.
I don’t really believe in the concept of “the one”, but I do believe in unequivocally wanting to be with someone, and I personally would have needed to know that after a year, not three. I think if that feeling doesn’t develop within a year, it never will.
Incidentally, I think that’s what being in love with someone translates into – that you have no doubts as to your choice. If you are not truly in love (even if you do love that person), you will not have the same kind of confidence.
Selena 39
Katarina,
You’re not married? My mistake. When people refer to someone as their HUSBAND I assume that they are legally married. And unless they have a divorce decree they are TECHNICALLY married.
As a woman you want what she wants also? She wants to live with her boyfriend of 3 years. You want to be married? To your husband or to one of your recent boyfriends? Confusing.
We are in agreement here: “I call it sticking to your values/principles.” To me that would mean Sophie decides if her values/principles are continuing a non-cohabitating relationship with someone she claims to love, OR deciding she would be happier with someone else who wanted to co-habitate with her. Not playing manipulative games to “stir up the boat” as you put it.
SHE is the one to shit or get off the pot if this relationship is not enough for her. Resonate any?
Katarina Phang 40
Selena, I’m not going to argue with you about what marriage is all about. It’s obviously not just a paper thing, but I digress. You want to believe what you want to believe. And if you want a black and white approach of things, there is nothing I can do to make you see where I’m or others are coming from.
It’s my business, anyway and I prefer to keep it that way.
Bottom line is, my relationship with my “ex” (legally still my husband) is on hold right now so I’m really single and so is he.
I want to be happy with a great guy who deserves me. How’s that? It’s bound to a heartache for a woman to want a guy instead of focusing on what she really wants in life: great relationship with a great guy who adores and wants her more than anything else in the world. It can be him or someone better than her current bf who can’t obviously give what she really wants.
Do NOT settle.
There is nothing manipulative with what I suggested. It’s simply giving back the power to oneself. It’s the goddess way. Women are always in the loss when they focus on men who can’t fully commit to them after enough time has passed for them to make such decision. I don’t think you can really argue on that.
Katarina Phang 41
You got it wrong, again, Selena. No, it’s not about making someone you love jealous. Sorry, that’s your words, not mine. It simply boils down to a principle that until a man commits in the way she wants/needs him to, she can’t and doesn’t want to be exclusive with him and thus closing the door to other men who might be up to the challenge to find her.
It’s her choice. If he doesn’t like it, then so be it (and yes you should be honest about it with him too, tell him the truth about your needs to date multiple men). She needs to love herself more than anyone else in the world.
Inbetween, I’ll call it a need of a higher order as per Abraham Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. It’s an emotional/spiritual need, not as “primal” as the needs for food or water (you’ll die without them in a few days/weeks) but a need, nevertheless.
What you call it doesn’t matter, I’m not interested in being pedantic about it. Bottom line is she won’t be fundamentally fulfilled until it is achieved.
The InBetweener 42
Katarina #35
“And Inbetween, are you saying that women are not supposed to expect/want marriage? That they can’t have both love and marriage. What a limiting belief that is!!! The “need” to be in a committed relationship (marriage) is inherent in most women (or even men). It’s perfectly okay to expect and want it, especially if she/they want to have kids.”
Nowhere in my comment did I say anything of that nature. My comment was based on what “humans” need vs. what they want. With that said, no one “needs” to be in a committed relationship but it is something that most, (if not all) people want. When the word need is used it is implied that it is something that can not be lived without – similar to food, water, air etc. But I concur, it is most definitely MORE THAN OKAY, for humans to want/covet marriage, children, a committed relationship etc.
Selena 43
Katarina Phang #40:
“It’s my business, anyway and I prefer to keep it that way.”
That would be better accomplished if you weren’t writing about it on several internet sites.
I probably agree with you about settling. If one settles for a person, or relationship that doesn’t make them happy, then they only have themselves to blame for their unhappiness.
Dating multiple men is not manipulative. Doing so in the hopes of making someone you love jealous is. If you believe this is the “goddess way” then you and I have different concepts of what goddess means. I prefer the goddess who believes honesty is the way to happiness. This means every woman needs to be honest with herself. Why is she choosing this man? This relationship? If it is not fullfilling why is she persisting? There’s where the focus should be; not on a man who won’t commit, but on why she is fixated on that particular man.
We choose who we want as a partner. We choose whether or not to stay in a relationship after one has formed. It is so easy to blame someone else for not being/doing what we want them to, harder to be honest in why we are accepting less than we claim to want. Because…perhaps what we claim to want isn’t what we truly want?
That’s what I’m arguing here Katarina – Sophie’s boyfriend who likes their relationship “as is” isn’t the problem; it’s Sophie’s own ambivalence that is her problem. If she’s as unhappy as you and some of the other commenters believe, it’s time for her to move on. Her letter to EMK did not quite convince me that she’s that unhappy. Perhaps there is more explanation into why they are not officially sharing a home than she has chosen to divulge.
Not unlike you and your marriage.
Bill 44
Generally men know within a few minutes of meeting a women if he wants to commit to her or not. This goes both ways.
If it has been three years there isn’t anything new or anything that would drive him to commit. Even if you were seeing other guys. When you start seeing other guys your actions is stronger than words that you are looking for a guy who will marry you.
Katarina says date other men. I say go to the gym exercise become fitter and more tone. He will somehow go wow I want to get married. Men are very simple and basic. If he won’t commit go and lose the flab and look more attractive physically.
Dating multiple men is what women dating advice professionals like to give as making yourself more attractive. Realistically it is your physical beauty that probably needs to be increased. Not to sound like a asshole.
I have heard my real good female friends asking why won’t he commit/why isn’t he into me. I won’t say this to my real good female friends but 90% of the time is because your not the best he can do another words your not that pretty. Go to the gym lose that flab. It will make the biggest difference.
Read what women have said after they became fitter/more tone/
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=898532
Cat 45
Bill (#44) “If he won’t commit go and lose the flab and look more attractive physically.”
There’s nothing in her letter to indicate she’s not physically attractive or that her boyfriend doesn’t find her attractive. And anytime someone says something that starts with “not to sound like an asshole” or “I’m not racist, but” they’re about to say something they know is offensive.
Diana 46
Bill, I have seen some very fit people who were still butt ugly, both inside and out. If Sophie became more fit, assuming she’s not already, his desire to marry her would not increase. Sleep with her even more perhaps, although he might would have to watch out for competition.
Sophie needs to stop agonizing herself over the glimmer of hope that her boyfriend will change because he won’t. When you consider how briefly we are here on earth, three years of your precious life is a sizable amount of time to give to another individual, and three years is enough. As long as his life with her continues smoothly along, there’s no reason for him to change. He gets her company, his sexual needs met, his independence, his putting other priorities before their relationship and so on.
Sophie has also made it clear to him that he’s worth waiting forever for, but is he really? She has put him on a pretty high pedestal from which he can only look down. She also shouldn’t base some of her thoughts and feelings on other people’s experiences. And even though she has also let him know how she would like to see their relationship move forward to living together, her actions are not supporting her words. He is also doing the same. She is straddling the fence, hoping that he will make the decision she wants, so that she won’t have to deal with making the painful decision that will lead to months of devastating heartbreak.
Sophie is living in fear. The best thing to do is for her to confront her fear and let her boyfriend know that while she loves him move than anything and would love to see a future with him beyond what they currently have, if he’s not in agreement with what she needs to continue to be happy in their relationship, then she understands, but she is leaving, and she wishes him well; that she loves herself too much to continue on this way, and she loves him too much to feel as if she’s pushed him into something he isn’t truly happy with. She then needs to have absolutely no communication or contact with him, unless he changes his mind. She doesn’t need to say that she’ll be dating other men, or anything like that. If he truly believes in all that he has shared with her, he will come after her. And if not, then Sophie will know that despite the pain, he was ultimately, not the one for her. And her life will begin anew.
Denise 47
#45 Cat
Haha, Cat, that is very true! I had a friend that would start off with “Not to be mean…”, then proceed to say something mean.
Denise 48
#39 Selena
Very well said from beginning to end….seems pretty simple. I think many people, some men included, like to complicate things to fit their purposes.
Lynn 49
In response to Bill’s comments, I think we should consider that Sophie is probably already beautiful. She sounds pretty together in her letter, and her boyfriend does keep coming back for more, even though he declines a greater commitment. *All* women have got that feminine light, and it is just a matter of letting it come out to the surface to be seen. Sure it’s great and healthy to be fit, and to be as well-groomed as possible. But men who carry on relationships with women and then will not commit to them due to their looks are just lame.
Also, not to be a ballbuster, but please note:
your = possessive pronoun, i.e. “how was your date?”
you’re = contraction for “you are”
(chicks dig smart guys)
The InBetweener 50
Karatina#43
“Inbetween, I’ll call it a need of a higher order as per Abraham Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. It’s an emotional/spiritual need, not as “primal” as the needs for food or water (you’ll die without them in a few days/weeks) but a need, nevertheless.
What you call it doesn’t matter, I’m not interested in being pedantic about it. Bottom line is she won’t be fundamentally fulfilled until it is achieved.”
Let’s TRY not to take relationship advice from Abraham Maslow and his so called “theory” of needs.
If 90% of happiness is not something a human could be satisfied with (in regards to another human being WANTING to be with you in which you have ABSOLUTELY no control over), there just MIGHT be a chance that the person in question will NEVER REALLY be satisfied. She could replace him with another human being to achieve her desired effect of “living together/marriage”, but even if that course of action were taken, there is no guarantee that she would be happy at least 90% of the time.
Hmm, maybe love has absolutely nothing to do with what she wants. Her very (EXACT?) words were, “I WANT MORE“. She also said; I truly believe that a lot of couples don’t have what we have, but a lot of those couples still have more commitment..”
Never leave sure for unsure.
Joe 51
Telling Sophie to date other men is not intended to make her BF jealous, the point is to expose her to other men who may be willing to commit to her, because her BF is apparently not that guy.
Selena 52
@#51
Nothing wrong with dating different people to find one who fits. Can be unpleasant to date someone who’s holding onto their previous relationship in some half-assed way though.
hunter 53
” I wish my girlfriends would stay around for 3 years. ” I must be saying something wrong.
Joe 54
I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with it, I’m saying that should be the purpose of dating around, not making the current BF jealous.
Ruby 55
Another problem I see is that Sophie has made it clear that she will wait – perhaps indefinitely – for her BF. I think it’s time to let him know that she WON’T wait much longer if he can’t step up. Otherwise, if she’s content to wait, what’s the incentive for him to change?
It really doesn’t matter if she dates other men or outright breaks up with him. The important thing is to let him know that that she won’t wait around forever.
Katarina Phang 56
Yes Ruby, that’s the whole point. It doesn’t matter which method she uses, she just makes him know she’s taking care of her own needs first and foremost as women need to do to be happy in a relationship.
Sophie 57
Funny that I just ended my 2 year-3month relationship, and it was pretty much the same situation as Sophie. We were happy together but we never see eye to eye on the future. He said he never wanted to get married, then he said he preferred living alone, finally it came out that he actually didn’t want to be a “life partner”. specifically, he doesn’t want any responsibility of a full time relationship. He only wants a girlfriend, conversation and ”benefits”. He is 43, when do you think the Peter Pan will ever grow up? I am gonna go with never. There are many reasons/excuses why a man doesn’t want to marry or marry you – the problem is NONE OF THE REASONS ARE GOOD. I can be perfect for him on all levels and treat him with kindness and patience. But if he doesn’t want to man up, what choices do I have other than walking away?? Good luck to both of us.
Sophie
Doubt! 58
Sophie,
You told him (perhaps not in so many words) that you want to be married, but he hasn’t asked you. I think that tells you everything.
Also, you might be 90% happy with things, but you sound 100% miserable with him not making a committment to you.
Evan sounds right when he says that after three years what new information do you learn? Well, in this case YOU learn something: he isn’t sure he wants to marry you. “Not sure” is both a no and a maybe. But it is not a yes!
The busy with work thing also sounds a bit cold-shoulderish. Stalling on moving in together, too. I think he’s emotionally unavailable to you. Do you want that? Sounds like you don’t.
Best of luck with your decision. My vote is that you leave, see what he does.
Oh and one more thing: I think the MAIN reason why more women don’t prod over the marriage thing is because deep down they fear that that means he only married her because she coaxed him into it. What do you think?
hunter 59
Yes, Doubt!, only reason some men marry, is because if they don’t, someone else will……
hrgoddess 60
Sophie, above all, you need to stay true to yourself. Don’t try to sugar coat it by trying to reason with yourself. People need what they need and want what they want. My best advice would be to to sit down with him and have a heart to heart about needs vs. wants. Tell him where your heart is, tell him what your concerns are and see how he responds. No need to play games. Honor the man and honor your love for him. If he doesn’t know what he wants then you have two choices – wait around for as long as your willing to wait, or walk away hoping that he will follow. It’s true that sometimes a person does not realize what they have until they’ve lost it. If you do walk away, make sure that you are commited to that decision and the results. Don’t do it just to test him, because if he doesn’t follow – you need to be prepared to face and live with the consequences. Follow your heart, and good luck!
Jessica 61
WOW!!! So many interesting comments here! And a lot of good advice, but I’m not so sure that the real issue has yet to be addressed.
Sophie’s dilemma is that she deeply loves and cares for her boyfriend and she wants a secure agreement between herself and him (i.e., marriage) and she’s said that she is willing to do what it takes to spend the rest of her life with him. This is what women really mean when they say they’ll wait for him until he’s ready.
Yes, Sophie is looking for confirmation that she is doing the right thing and if she’s not she wants to be corrected. I feel like that is one of the reasons, not the primary, but one of the reasons that she wrote to EMK.
I believe her primary reason for her letter is to understand how to spend the rest of her life with him. She wants to know how she can make him realize that he truly wants to be with her or that a lifetime together isn’t meant for the two of them.
The widely held dispute between waiting patiently while not applying pressure vs. always keeping your options open and moving on if two individuals are not on the same page at the given moment in time is a source of confusion for many women.
Ultimately, Sophie wants to do whichever will allow her to be with him in a committed relationship. If she has to wait another year or two for him, she would if it meant lasting love and committment. If she has to tell him that she’ll move on (even though it would be with difficulty) if he can’t grant her security in the form of a committed relationship for him to realize that he doesn’t want to lose her, she’d do it.
But the problem lies in that we don’t know what’s going to happen. We can’t predict the future.
The truth of the matter is that both have their pros and cons.
- Waiting patiently does allow a stronger foundation for deep, lasting love and it does allow him to truly understand how he feels about her. It builds trust and ultimately a stronger emotional bond.
- However, many men fall in love while in the absence of a woman. Her absence makes him realize and understand how much happier he is in her prescence.
- But waiting patiently also provides no incentive for him to really focus on the relationship and really contemplate his true feelings.
- While moving on, is not only heart wrenching but it takes courage and discipline and it might not end up the way a woman hopes. But she must realize that when one door closes another better door opens. Easier said than done, I know. But the difficulty of the situation doesn’t make it not true.
My advice to Sophie is to not move in with her boyfriend. She shouldn’t start dating other men either. She should take some time to herself, maybe two weeks to a month to really look deep inside herself and focus on what she truly wants. If she truly wants marriage, there’s nothing wrong with that. Anthropologists have revealed that committment is biologically programmed within us and other species as well. (Check out Helen Fisher’s work. She’s amazing.) But if she’s so in love with her boyfriend and is willing to sacrifice marriage, that’s her decision as well. Plenty of couples that aren’t married remain together forever and are happier than couples who are bound by marriage. But again, we cant guarantee any one outcome, because we simply can’t predict the future. Sophie, you need to look inside yourself, only you know the answer. I truly wish you luck and happiness, whether with this boyfriend or the next.
hrgoddess 62
@Jessica – 61
Great response!
Lance 63
Agree with Honey and others above, age makes a difference. If they’re in their 20′s, I think they *at least* need to complete their 20′s before getting married, which could mean several more years hence. It’s completely irrational to think that married is the end-all be-all of a relationaship, and that if they don’t get married now even though the relationship is perfectly healthy, you have to break it off. Why? Just keep doing what you’re doing. You have the rest of your life to be married and live under the same roof, if that’s indeed in the cards.
Sophie (OP) 64
Thank you all for you comments and input.
I actually do agree with Evan’s advice to a point (I do think that every relationship and guy is different), but at the same time, I probably will be that ‘stupid’ girl who still waits. I will reach my threshold eventually but I haven’t yet.
Selena actually nailed how I feel about a lot of it. The 10% of unhappiness comes from the lack of forward progress. I know that that percentage should be weighted because it could potentially collapse the whole relationship, but I really am so happy when I’m not thinking of that, and I’m a really good avoider…
Maybe it’s not the healthiest way to go on in a relationship, but I am happy and I truly do believe that he will just get to that point. Maybe I am being foolish, but I know that he does really love me and care for me and I know I am one of the most important people in his life. None of this comes easily for him. I know I can be too understanding sometimes, but I’d rather be foolish down the road than end something that I don’t want to ever end. If that makes me stupid then I am stupid! I don’t know what the future holds, but I know my present is happy, even if she is living in ignorant bliss…
Selena 65
Sophie #64
Thanks for writing back in. I wish things could be more clear for you, but there is nothing ‘stupid’ about enjoying the present. The future has a way of taking care of itself.
Denise 66
Sophie, within all your conversations with him, has he indicated that he does see a future with you? Men will stay with women they know they will not end being with forever–they won’t volunteer the information that’s what they are doing, but if they are asked the question, they very well may come clean. It would be pretty low character of a man to lie straight out to the woman he’s intimately involved with, and this man doesn’t sound like he’s of low character.
The other comments above apply too. We don’t know what age you two are and we don’t know what your ultimate goal is.
I think it’s also important to accept that wanting more security in a relationship, i.e. marriage, is NOT a bad thing and you are not a stupid woman to want that.
Sophie (OP) 67
He has said that he thinks he wants a future with me but he doesn’t know when it’ll actually happen, and, yes, that does worry me. I am 31 and he’s 30 so we’re not exactly spring chickens anymore!
I know I’m not being unreasonable wanting more commitment. I am waiting and hoping that it doesn’t come back to bite me in the butt some day, but I do believe that he (and what we have together) is worth the wait and that the gamble is big but the payoff is bigger.
@Jessica, that really was well said. Thank you.
Bill 68
@Sophie (#67)
Thanks for the clarification-very helpful.
If, at 30, he says he thinks he wants a future with you, but doesn’t know when it’ll happen, then he’s given you his answer. He didn’t say he didn’t know “if” it’ll happen, just when.
As a man in his forties who, in his 30′s, avoided marriage like the plague, I understand what he’s saying. He hasn’t resolved what “being married” looks like.
Does he have a great, stable career? Perhaps he’s concerned about his ability to provide. He may also be smart enough to realize he doesn’t know enough about life/himself to commit (not saying this is true, just may be a thought he has). If this is the case, then he’s feeling a lot of responsibility towards you-he may be concerned about not screwing up your life. He may take proposing marriage as a VERY serious commitment, one that takes LOTS of forethought.
Men often see this very differently than women – hence this blog. Most guys I knew in their 20′s and 30′s either didn’t want to get married or were ambivalent – some knew the wanted to be married. Compare that to most women I’ve known wanted to be married, and only one or two were indifferent to it.
Do you both want children? Have you discussed this at length? (I don’t recall reading it in your letter-it may be there and I’ve forgotten). If you both want children, then this is a great subject for commitment. See other articles from EMK about having kids. You’re already post-prime for getting pregnant, though still in very viable years. As you approach 40, those odds really drop (and please, don’t anyone jump on this advice-it’s a real concern, backed by real research that it’s harder for couples to conceive as they age…our the 30′s aren’t our 20′s). My point being that he may not have considered the concerns about having kids.
Have you explained to him, in a non-confrontational (i.e. non-demanding) way, that being married is important to you, and why. I know I was rather dense about it until some lengthy and in-depth discussions with my GF. She helped me develop a new perspective on marriage – so even us old dogs can learn new tricks given the right circumstances/presentation/paradigm.
Denise 69
Sophie (OP), I think you’ll really need to step back and contemplate what it is that you really want and then be prepared to take action–even though that action may be hard. You’ve been with this man a long time and he’s not very sure in his ability or willingness to commit to you–obviously.
I like Bill’s last post, including his comments on childbearing at an older age. I do think your approach needs to come from YOUR point of view and what YOU want–NOT what HE is unwilling or unable to do, for whatever his reasons. IMO, it’s perfectly reasonable to express what you want and why it’s important to you (if you haven’t multiple times already), and then say that he has every right to feel the way he feels and to take his time, but he can’t have you all to himself while he is doing that. I would not say a lot of words and I wouldn’t put forward an ultimatum. Hear what he has to say, really listen to what he has to say. Then I would suggest separating yourself from him for a little bit…let things sink in on BOTH sides. Be patient, let HIM come to YOU…men don’t process as quickly as we do (and it’s maddening!
. This will be difficult for sure…but that doesn’t mean it’s not the right thing to do.
Coming from a woman who is older, TIME is something that is so precious. You can’t buy it, you can’t trade for it, you can’t gather it, you can’t save it–it’s very limited commodity.
Good luck Sophie! You sound like an awesome, mature woman!
C. 70
This is a tough call I think. I’m 31 also and I’ve never cohabitated with a boyfriend. My longest relationship went 4 years and never got to that stage mostly because he was afraid. I do like my freedom but I understand the longing for a stable “home life” with the one you love, so I think my next relationship to last a couple years I’m going to want that element.
That said, I have friends who just moved in together after being in a relationship for 7 years. I have another pair of friends who have moved in together after 4 years and just got married after 10 years (she finally gave an ultimatum). So, I guess some people come around after awhile. But who knows if anyone will last, and there is a strong possibility that both pairs of my friends I mentioned will have trouble starting a family, as they are all mid-to late 30s.
I think how strongly you want children is the main question here, because if you don’t want them then I don’t think there’s any reason to rush into cohabitation/marriage if you are already mostly happy with how things are.
RosiePosie 71
Sophie, I can see you recognize and value the relationship you already have, yet obviously you are unhappy with the lack of forward progress (which is why you have posted to the blog). That’s perfectly understandable.
Obviously, you are looking for commitment or — because you say he’s already made improvements — some reassurance that you are not waiting for a future that will never come.
When I read posts like these, I am reminded of the advice I frequently read (often from male relationship experts like EMK) that when a man decides that a particular woman is “The One”, there is no obstacle too great, and no timing problem or financial issues that can’t be accommodated. Poor people make commitments to each other all the time. People get married while one or both are seeking higher education. Or are in long-distance relationships, etc etc.
In other words, they make it work.
You are not saying that any of these things is preventing your boyfriend from committing. But women are very self-sacrificing with relationships, while men tend to be more self-oriented. If my partner said to me (randomly) that it would make him happy if I wore a green shirt every Tuesday until 2011, I would do it…No matter how unusual… because I know he’d be happy that I did. Your boyfriend knows that some sort of sign of deeper commitment (e.g. moving in together, or a ring) would make you happy … but he cannot do it for you. That says something to me. This may be a man you cannot rely on to put your needs ahead of his, or in future to make you happy or attend to your needs.
I know wearing-a-green-shirt-on-Tuesdays is trivial compared to making a life-long commitment, but the point is that he needs to step up to reassure you, because that is what YOU want. Sorry, but it seems like he cannot, so you may be best to move on.
Foolingmyself 72
I can totally relate to where Sophie is coming from. Being a woman who has dated a man for 5 years-LDR, in my mid 40′s, dating a man in his mid-50′s, I have finally decided, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. IF a man wants to be with you, he will move heaven and earth to do so. If you are not happy in the relationship (and I can’t say I am/was not happy), but without the commitment to back it up, something that shows he is committed to you, you must move on. It hurts like hell. But if your needs are not getting met, and you’re not feeling secure, what’s the point? Time is precious, as we start getting older, even more so. We may love these men with all our hearts, but if our hearts are not feeling safe and secure, its time to move on. If they love you (enough), they will come after you (us) and give us what will make us happy as well. Just my two cents.
J 73
Evan, I have been reading mails for a long time now and I have never felt the need to respond to anything, other than your survey a few days back. You know, what all this proves?
That you can do whatever you think needs to be done but it all boils down to destiny. You will be with the person you are meant to be, when you are meant to be.
According to all the rules put forward by many, she did everything right, not putting pressure, being patient blah blah blah.. But it still didn’t work, did it? She is being advised to tighten the screws(even though nobody said it the exact same way but that’s what it boils down to).
I believe that what is meant to be will be. You can be most obnoxious, most irritating, ugly as hell, it doesn’t matter. You will be with the person you are meant to be, when you are meant to be. Maybe my Hindu background has something to do with it, but that is what I believe in.
Evan Marc Katz 74
@J – You can believe in destiny. I believe in using best practices.
So if you do everything right and it STILL doesn’t work, that doesn’t mean that the next time, you shouldn’t do the EXACT same thing.
Imagine a baseball player who takes a perfect swing, hits it to deep center field, and the center fielder catches the ball before it goes over the fence. The batter came six inches from a home run. Instead he got out.
Does this mean he should quit baseball? Does this mean that he should re-tool his swing? Not at all.
All it means is that the next time the batter gets up, he should take the exact same swing and trust that a certain percentage of the time, it will result in a home run.
This isn’t destiny. You make your own luck with your optimism, your effort, and your ability to persevere.
Brittney 75
Why is there the disclaimer that 3years is plenty long enough (UNLESS YOU’RE UNDER 25)? I have been with my boyfriend for 3 years and we’re under 25. I want to move in together and he’s not ready, just like Sophie’s situation.
How does our age factor into the situation though? I would actually argue the opposite. It is rarer for a couple our age to stay togetehr this long. So shouldn’t that mean more in terms of wanting a commitment?
Ange 76
Wow, this is so similar to my situation. And I think I know the answer, I’m just too scared to face it.
My partner and I have been dating for 3 years. We’re both 30, and have been living together for 1.5yrs. He is shortly being posted overseas (for work) for 2 years. He loves me and wants me to come with him.
But he isn’t sure about marriage and about marrying me (“oh maybe I would like to get married in like 5 years time”… by which time we would have been dating for 8 years?!? )
If I don’t tell him thats not good enough, I stay in the relationship and move country with him. He keeps a great relationship, pursues his professional career, and gets to put off commitment. Talk about having your cake and eating it too.
And me? I give up my great job, my friends and move country hoping and hoping that suddenly he’s going to wake up and realize he’s ready to commit? Really?? Who am I fooling? Evan is right, he’s collected all the information he needs, why am I still under assessment/probation?
Sophie, I totally get what you’re saying about just sticking it out coz everything else about the relationship is going well. I’m terrified to call my relationship off. He’s a fantastic guy and I have no doubt he loves me. But our future goals just don’t match up. You have to set a timeline, I think. Otherwise you’ll find yourself in 5 years time hearing the same overplayed line. Inability to commit is a personality flaw to take into account for compatibility as much as anything else.
Don’t avoid a difficult decision just because it is difficult and you’re scared of being alone. That’s what I’ve been doing.
Mary 77
Thank you all for this insight! Everything is so much clearer, I didnt even have to ask my question, you guys helped me solve it
Just remember, life is short, and we are only here for so long…
I hope everyone finds their happiness…
BeenThere 78
Get out now. You are trading your integrity, your spirit, and your self esteem for a person who will not ever commit to you. If he were going to, he would have done so by now. He is using you to fill in the blanks. You are, or were, probably a joyful person, with a lot to offer. Do not waste yourself on someone who is not deserving of you. There is no need to be angry, or vindictive. Just understand that you deserve someone who shares your ideals, shares what you want from a relationship, and wants to build a life with you. You can spend years waiting for things to change, and they won’t, if you stay where you are, hoping every day that things will get better.
Sue 79
Wow! That response could almost have been written for me. I’m 40, intelligent, loving, attractive, successful…. But I’ve been hanging on to a guy for over 4 years who won’t even give me keys to his apartment (let alone talk marriage with me), I’ve been waiting in a dark alley for him to get home from work so he can ALLOW me entry. There was once a proposal but after 6 months without a ring being produced he told me to “buy my own”. He’s done so many hurtful things
After reading your response, I’ve told him I can’t live one more second in this wishy-washy non-committed farce and I need to get an answer about our future from him. I want some form of direction or closure so I can move on with my life. It’s true, after 3 years there’s really nothing more he’s going to learn about me that would make or break the relationship. It’s up to me now to be strong and stand up for what I want.
PositiveEnergy 80
Great comments everyone, including Evan’s advice! When it comes to romantic partners you may deem the one you are with as “worth waiting for”, but the bottom line is you have to be in the same place in your life as eachother (within a reasonable time period) or that particular relationship is just not right for you. Yes, different people get to that commitment phase at different times so you have to give some lee-way for the other person to come around, but 3 years with no solid plan of a future together is time enough. This man might mostly make you happy, but he is clearly not in the same place in his life as you are and I think you should find someone who is. There is definitely someone else out there who is “worth waiting for” and IS as commitment-minded as you are. It’s a tough turning point as I understand how you would not want to throw away the past 3 years you’ve built with this man, but if you don’t say goodbye you may build another 3 years of resentment with him, meanwhile passing by the opportunity to build a life with someone else who is just as ripe and ready for love and commitment as you are. Breaking up hurts badly, but it’s worth the months of suffering in order to open the door to the right relationship. Which brings me to the point that there is no point in the ultimatum or the “seeing other people” while he makes a decision. Just close the door to that relationship completely, suffer for a time in order to heal that wound, then open the door to a fresh start and never look back. If your heart is open to meeting someone who wants the same things as you and compliments you well then you will!…and you will have an even deeper and more satisfying relationship with that person than you do with this man you are with now…Best of luck with you decision.
Fusee 81
Discussions on timing for sex and marriage are my favorites! Ever!
This thread is quite old but I’m glad it came back from the archives because I had not run into it before.
I agree very much with Evan’s advice regarding the early stages of dating, and how important it is to allow trust, friendship, and love to develop and to get to know one another well first. And it takes time. I personally disagree with the timeline of three years (at 33 years old, I allow less time for the courtship as I have already explained in other threads), but my main point for this post is not the actual timeline but how the timeline is communicated. Or how it is NOT communicated for that matter.
Whatever your timeline is, I strongly believe that it should be communicated with appropriate advance notice. Playing it cool, being patient, hoping that he is actively figuring things out is cute, but ineffective if he is not self-aware and purposeful. And most men are not. Most men enjoy the status quo. Most men do not commit to more than they are asked to. Yes, Evan – and some other commenters – were purposeful, which allowed their girlfriends to remain “cool” since they knew their men were working hard on it, but such men are the exception to the rule. Most men need encouragements to contemplate their relationship goals and face their commitment fears. Bill admitted this tendency:
Bill #68: “Have you explained to him, in a non-confrontational (i.e. non-demanding) way, that being married is important to you, and why. I know I was rather dense about it until some lengthy and in-depth discussions with my GF. She helped me develop a new perspective on marriage – so even us old dogs can learn new tricks given the right circumstances/presentation/paradigm.”
At “prefered deadline minus 6 months to one year” (end of second year if on a three-year timeline, at the 12 month-mark if on a 18-months timeline, etc), an explanation along these lines: “Hey darling, I love you very much and I’m happy about the relationship we have created so far. I would like you to know that I desire to progress towards marriage at some point in the near future. I would like you to think about your relationship goals, and how I fit into them so that we can discuss the possibility of marriage before we reach our (third, 18 months) anniversary.” will be more effective than simply walking away at the deadline, hoping for him to run after you. If he has not yet SERIOUSLY thought about his relationship goals and/or if he suffers from some unaddressed commitment fears, he will need more assistance to become mindful of them and possibly get through them. You are the only one able to trigger a desire to address them but even if he does want to address them, time will be needed. It’s worth it to communicate early and give enough time to work on it before your timeline or your patience runs out. Waiting and possibly walking away might result in the waste of a good relationship and of a good man.
But if such conversations to not make him step up and work on your questions or if you learn that your life goals do not match, then you know what you have to do. As Ange said:
Ange #76: “Inability to commit is a personality flaw to take into account for compatibility as much as anything else.”
Vicki K 82
I’m with those who advise you to stop being patient. But I don’t see it as giving him an ultimatum. For me it’s about getting clear about what your needs are.
Your focus in your letter is largely on him – what he wants, what he’s got going on, what he let you do or doesn’t want to do. What do you want? What is it you are hoping to create? Is this man going to help you co-create that?
It sounds like the answer is no. After three years, he should know one way or another. He may fear losing you or fear being alone, and so he’s stringing you along, but it’s not going to help you create what you need.
You need to value yourself more than that. What’s best for him may be to not be married for a while. What’s best for you, from what you find yourself longing for, is to create that family with someone and have that deeper commitment.
If he can’t step up to the plate, then he should lose you. You’re worth a hell of a lot more. You’re worth a man who can’t wait to start his life with you.
When you find it with someone, you’ll wonder how you ever came to see anything less as ‘loving’.
sarah 83
Bill 44. Your advice is really to go to the gym and become fitter and more toned, to make him marry her?
I actually laughed out loud when I read that! Are you a teenager?!
Dana 84
Evan’s a hypocrite. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve commented on a relationship not moving fast and they say a crappy comment like his-3 years isn’t too long to wait EXCEPT Evan only waited 14 months. If he wanted to be with her, 3 years was enough time to decide. Get out now!
Karl R 85
Dana said: (#84)
“they say a crappy comment like his-3 years isn’t too long to wait”
Evan told Sophie that 3 years was long enough to wait for a proposal. (I believe Evan has previously stated that 3 years is not too long to wait for marriage.) Evan also told Sophie to leave if her boyfriend was unwilling to propose.
Waiting 2 years to propose and an extra year to get married is rather normal. (I proposed around 19 months and got married around 39 months.) But this should not be a fixed number. It must depend a lot upon circumstances. I don’t care if a couple has been dating for 7 years … if they started dating at age 13, then 20 is still too young (and too soon) for them to get married.
Dana said: (#84)
“I can’t tell you how many times I’ve commented on a relationship not moving fast”
I’m not going to search through the blog looking for where you mentioned it. If you want to link to your previous comments, I’ll take a look at the specifics surrounding your comments (and any direct responses).