How Long Should You Stay With A Boyfriend Who Does Not Believe In Marriage?

Evan Marc Katz

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Dear Evan,

First of all, I love your advice. In fact, it’s because of your advice that I’m in my first serious, long-term relationship. (We’ve been together a year and a half and live together.) Now, however, I’m confused about the state of my relationship.

See, ever since we started dating – even before we started dating and knew each other through friends – I knew this guy didn’t believe in marriage.

I know you’re going to say: “Why didn’t you pay attention to the negatives?” I can honestly say I didn’t realize at that point that it mattered to me. I’m fairly young (late 20s) and it is just beginning to dawn on me that I’d like to get married. Now I realize how much I do want to get married to the person I love. He still doesn’t believe in it. He believes in long-term commitment and family, but not marriage (his family history is pretty rocky). I said to him that I don’t want to wait, and if I weren’t engaged after a couple years together I would think of moving on.

This really hurts him – to him, BECAUSE I want to marry him and wouldn’t just want a relationship, it means I love him less. He’s offered the following compromise: in a few years, when we decide to have kids, then we can get married. I’m scared, though. Is it stupid to wait that long? And is it a bad idea to marry someone who is basically like “fine, fine, we can get married.” I know he loves me and is committed to me, but I wonder how healthy that is.

Now I feel that this big difference in values is constantly hanging over me, and is making me feel negatively about things.

For a point of reference: our relationship is pretty good. We rarely argue (I would say we’ve had about 3 large arguments in our relationship, and maybe a smaller disagreement every couple of weeks.) We both want kids. We both have our irritating habits but we accept them. –Katie

Dear Katie,

Thanks for your kind words. I’m thrilled that you found a serious, long-term relationship using my advice, and I’m candidly delighted that you even quoted the advice you ignored about “ignoring the positives and believing the negatives”.

It would be easy for me to tell you to run from him. But I’m not so positive that you would be closer to achieving your goal that way.

Except now the chickens are coming home to roost. Or something like that.

Listen, I can’t tell you anything about your relationship that you don’t already know.

I think it’s unfortunate that he has such a distorted view of marriage that he’s given up on it as an institution.

I think it’s great that you’re trying to understand where he’s coming from – how it hurts him that he feels that HE’S not enough without a ring on your finger.

I think it’s telling that he attempted to come up with a mutually agreeable compromise, especially since it’s one where, apparently, you get exactly what you’ve always wanted: a husband, a ring, and a baby

So you’re faced with the timeless dilemma that all women face – should I stay or should I go? This very question was the topic of an hour long FOCUS Coaching call so believe me, I’ve got a lot more to say about it than I can compress into a single blog post.

It would be easy for me to tell you to run from him. I’m sure some of the other readers will say just that. But I’m not so positive that you would be closer to achieving your goal that way. And what we’re always trying to figure out here is effective vs. ineffective – what’s the best way for Katie to achieve her dream of marriage and kids with a man she loves?

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110 Comments »Filed Under Marriage, Relationships

110 Responses to “How Long Should You Stay With A Boyfriend Who Does Not Believe In Marriage?”

1. Steve 1

   Katie;
   FWIW,  I don’t think much of marriage either.  Unless raising children is in involved marriage doesn’t do much for two adults beyond mundane things like health insurance.   It wouldn’t be a statement of my love for a woman.
   Your BF said he is willing to marry you after several years if you both want children.   That is everything you want and the way things should be.  A couple spends time together and they know if they can make it as a couple, long term,  before bringing a child in the world.
   I know that you WANT him to WANT to marry you.  I think you are missing the boat on that.   Marriage is nothing but a legal contract.  What you want is to be convinced of his love for you and his commitment to you.  Those things exist apart from the marriage and in a way he has demonstrated them by being willing to do something he doesn’t believe in to be WITH YOU.
   You haven’t mentioned how long you have dated him.  Why not date him for at least 3 years?  After that point you will know if he is willing to stick around or not and you will both know each other very well.
    
    

2. NonExist 2

   I’d reccomend patience.
   If your relationship is solid, as you say in your writing, and everything else works and you really want to be with him, waiting three more years should be a reasonable compromise.

   And given the fact that early you mentioned he did not believe in marriage and you knew before you started dating, it seems to show his character that he actually compromised to do so.

   Changing paradigms like that is not easy. And it seems he needs the three years to make absolutely sure that choosing marriage is the right path for him to take.

3. Daisy 3

   A friend of mine believes in marriage but her boyfriend of 5yrs didnt. They’ve been living together, travelled the world together, go on lots of wild adventures together, they were basically perfect together. Yet, my friend was walking on eggshells everyday trying to figure out whether he’s ever going to propose to her or not. They have talked about it, but he never gave her a proper confirmation as to whether he wants to get married, he thinks that domestic partnership is enough.

   So what my friend did was that she would subtly make small remarks or fun little comments that hint towards marriage (e.g. “Hey, Melissa & Jake are getting married soon, isnt that great?” or something like “that wedding scene in the movie was so romantic!”) Ok well maybe more subtle than these, but you get the point. My friend did this almost every day but only when the topic comes up. And then finally, when they hit their 6-yr mark, the guy suddenly proposed to her! And now they’re married with a cute baby boy.

   So yes you should let men be free to make their own choices when it comes to marriage, it might take a while for him to be ready. But at the same time you shouldn’t suffer too much from this uncertainty, if you are then maybe you would be better off finding someone else. Otherwise, like Evan says, enjoy & focus on the Present, not the Future.

4. Ruby 4

   This is why I’m not a fan of living together before marriage, unless you’re engaged. The man has all the domesticity he wants without having to commit to marriage. 

   However, if you both want kids, and that wasn’t something either one of you were sure about prior to getting together, that changes things, doesn’t it? It’s a pretty good reason to marry. And I’ve read lots of research that has said that men are most motivated to commit in the first 2 years (maybe 3 if you are under 30) or so of a relationship, so I don’t think these timelines are completely arbitrary. 

   How long should you wait? I’m not sure, but I think that when you really begin to feel strongly about having children, that would be a good time to revisit this. Remember, too, that an engagement can last for a year or two, so you may not want to wait too long before at least getting engaged.

5. Diane 5

   More and more people are choosing not to marry and are leading happy lives. A new book by a (presumably) happily married male sociologist with 2 little kids (putting that in so that you can leave aside any ad hominem attacks on his research) describes this trend in detail. He had an op-ed about it in the NY Times this past weekend. You can read it here:

   http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/05/opinion/sunday/living-alone-means-being-social.html

   The point: There is nothing wrong with his lack of interest in marriage, and while you see it as a “negative” or the result of some kind of psychological damage, you might consider that your take on his lack of interest might be wrong. Choosing to remain single is a positive intention for many people, the research now tells us, and it might be so for him. His desire to stay unmarried may never change, no matter how great your relationship is.  So would you consider staying with him without the ring and the contract if all else is in place?

   I predict that we’re going to be seeing more of this kind of friction between lovers as time goes on–I mean, this demographic shift is huge–and there are no easy answers. The conflict doesn’t fall out along traditional gender lines, either. Just as many women are saying no to marriage as are men. Maybe more, if you look at divorced/widowed–the women are less likely than the men to say they want to remarry (acc to the sociologist above). 
   
   To the readers here: Please don’t take what I’m saying as an attack on marriage or on your desire to find “the one.” If that’s for you, go for it. Just respect that not everyone wants that, and, evidently, fewer people want that than was previously thought. It’s important to understand where the other person is coming from and to accept it, not try to change it, not hope that he (or she) is going to “come around.” And if you believe that there is something wrong with a man or woman who doesn’t want marriage, then you’re going to lose that relationship because no one is going to stay with you if you’re always putting out that that other person a loser, or damaged, or not moral, or immature for not wanting the lifestyle that you want.

6. Evan Marc Katz 6

   Diane, thou dost protest too much. No one is attacking anyone. The OP said that her boyfriend “believes in long-term commitment and family, but not marriage (his family history is pretty rocky).”

   Thus, we can conclude two things: 1) That he doesn’t choose to remain single – he believes in long-term commitment and family. 2) That his lack of interest in marriage is specifically due to his rocky upbringing, thus suggesting some psychological damage.

   The article you posted was about people who choose to remain single and unencumbered by long-term romantic relationships, which means that they can go to art openings and take spontaneous weekends away whenever they want. Good for those people. It just has nothing to do with the original question, which is about a man who wants EVERYTHING that a marriage offers…without the ring on his finger. No one is judging those who don’t want marriage but if this guy wants everything associated with marriage and his girlfriend wants marriage, one of them is going to have to change their minds…and, in the long-term, it’s probably him.

7. Diane 7

   EMK@6; Actually, the article doesn’t go into any detail at all about whether those folks who are living single are romantically involved with anyone else or in what way they are (gay, abstinate, polyamorous, committed but living apart, into casual liaisons, with children, without children, etc.). Statistics on “singles” or “unmarrieds” would include all sorts of romantic attachments, just as statistics on “marrieds” would (gay, abstinate, polyamorous, committed but living apart, into casual liaisons, with children, without children, etc.). So I would say that the boyfriend can want long-term commitment and kids and still not want to get married. I’d say that because there are many, many people out there who are in just this kind of situation.   

   I made the comment about people perceiving what I’m saying as an  “attack on marriage” (not on a person or people, as you suggest I am saying) because I’ve read that kind of stuff on here on other posts.

   Also, just to point out one other not-so-small thing–people who come from rocky upbringings are not necessarily psychologically damaged, and people who come from stable upbringings are not necessarily psychologically healthy. To attribute his lack of interest in marriage to some kind of trauma is a very simplistic understanding of mental health and relationship and is exactly the kind of misinformation that I was suggesting that people stop bandying about. We know better now.

   I would also say that until we speak with him we can’t conclude anything. I take people at their word. If someone says to me that they don’t want to get married, I believe them, without judgment or psychoanalyzing them. I figure that they probably know better than I do what they want and what is best for them. If I think they should get married, or that they should get married to me, or that they will get married to me even if they say they don’t want to, who sounds crazy?  

8. nathan 8

   The OP might want to ask herself why she wants to get married. What is it exactly about marriage that she feels is essential to their relationship? I say this because a lot of folks, especially those with less experience with long term relationships, tend to have Hollywood and fairy-tale like views of marriage. Furthermore, they’re more likely to be reacting to social pressure from friends and family, than those who have “been around the block” more.
    
   She also might want to, if she hasn’t already, really sit down and solicit what her boyfriend’s objections are – in detail. Without any pressure to talk about their relationship status. It’s hard to know if his “compromise” is unhealthy or not because we don’t know in more detail what his objections to marriage are, or if he’s just offering to get married later to keep the OP around.
    
   Evan assumes he has given up on marriage. Perhaps he has. Or perhaps he wants it to look differently than the models he has seen around himself. Or perhaps he questions the way in which it’s viewed by many as the only possible “good” outcome of a relationship. I have had a lot of conversations with friends who aren’t interested in marriage, or who are – like myself – on the fence about it. And there are countless reasons why they think as they do. Some maybe are stemming from a failure to deal with past family trauma, but a lot are simply viewing relationships in a different manner from what was given to us by society.
    

9. Lara 9

   I think that the pressures that women used to exert on men to get married are working less and less these days. As others point out, nobody has to get married to anybody anymore to have what marriage offers. So little hints and waiting around and hoping he’ll take those hints and notice your foot tapping away may not work in the long run.

   I say that if you’re sure that you want to be married and he’s said that he really doesn’t, cut your losses and go find someone else who does want to get married. It isn’t fair to waste his time and put him through all of the trauma of thinking that he has a life partner on one set of terms but then giving him an ultimatum because one day you’ve decided enough time has gone by for him to change–especially when he’s been clear about not wanting to get married all along, & you knew all along that you were going to bail if he didn’t propose.

   My sister is big into giving guys ultimatums. It works, she says. She should know–at 43 she’s on her third marriage. My brother was on the receiving end of pressure to marry his long-term girlfriend and gave in. That also ended in divorce. And many of the divorced guys I know complain about not having wanted to be married to begin with, but that the woman (or the family or whoever) pressured him into it. The guy may love a woman and not want to lose her but not want to be married. Women shouldn’t take advantage of his feelings or of the social pressure to make him do something that he doesn’t want to do. It may not backfire, but it also stands a really big chance of backfiring. Wouldn’t it be better not to have to deal with that and just find someone who’s on the same page as you? If lots of people want to get married then it’s just a matter of going out with guys from that pool and not going out with guys clearly not in that pool.

   It’s not just about getting the ring, it’s about what happens after.

10. JoAnn 10

    I have seen cases where one partner, who strongly wanted marriage, immediately wanted the relationship to change, to match more with his/her idea of marriage. The OP then feels trapped or deceived, having expected the relationship/person to be the same as before the ceremony.  Yes, it can also work out just fine, but people need to tread carefully.

11. Lana 11

    Katie,
    My darling, wonderful, amazing boyfriend of 4 years also doesn’t believe in marriage, but also wanted a life partner and long term commitment- but we don’t intend to have kids, so there is even less legal reason to get hitched.  However, similar to your boyfriend, he knows its important to me.  When we decided to move in together I made it very clear that I wanted to get married, but was willing to do it on a timeline he felt more comfortable with.  For him, that was after he and paid off a good chunk of his student loan debt.
    We’re planning to get engaged this year and married next – is he jumping for joy?  No. But is he willing to do this thing that means so much to me?  Yes.  There are times where I wish I had a guy who was so “head over heels in love with me” that he HAD to marry me, but I realized that my guy is so head over heels in love with me that he’s willing to do something he would rather not in order to keep me and make me happy.
    Sure, there’s always the chance that he’ll not be able to do it when the time comes, but I believe deep down that it won’t happen.  If I know nothing else, it is that he is a man of his word.  My point is that it’s not about the romance of a man desperately wanting to marry you – but knowing that this is a man you can compromise and build a life with.

12. Goldie 12

    I see marriage as a great legal way to get your financial stuff in order as a family, if you’re going to depend on each other physically and financially. Being able to add each other to your medical insurance is pretty high on the list. Personally I don’t plan on remarrying, but that’s because I’m done raising a family and at this point I’m just out to enjoy life and have fun together as a couple. That, of course, may change, but at least it’s where I stand at the moment. If I were in a relationship where we planned on owning a house and having kids together, I’d sleep a lot better at night if we were legally married. That said, Katie’s BF seems to be of the same mindset, since he’s OK with getting married when they start having kids.

13. Kristen 13

    I’m curious about why he doesn’t want to marry. I can honestly say that I have two friends who are in a satisfying longterm relationships without marriage. Both my friends and their significant others are declared atheists (one is American, one French), without a chip on their shoulders, generally happy, gainfully employed, good relationships with their families, etc. I think that unless the individual holds particular philosphophical views (like these people) about why they don’t want to have a legal marriage, I am not convinced that he/she will have a satisfying longterm relationship. I have a very close friend who tried to believe that she didn’t care, but she did and it turns out that her now ex-husband was too chicken to break things off. She got him to marry her, he had an affair with a coworker while she was pregnant.

14. Katie 14

    Ooh! This is fun. And nobody has said anything mean yet.
    Thanks for your great advice, Evan.
    I think I sent that email a month and a half ago… obviously, I knew that a busy dating guru would take some time getting to my dilemma so I had to sort of figure things out myself. I told my significant other that I would leave it alone for the time being, but that marriage is still important to me. I haven’t brought up the topic with him since then, which I think was a good choice on my part.
    I know it will come up again in the future, and I’m not looking forward to that day, but at least for now I have taken the pressure off him.
    Who knows why I care about marriage? I’ve never been the type of woman who has fantasized about the fairy-tale wedding or catching a husband. I’ve had a lot of positive single female role models in my family, so I’ve always thought that it could be possible for me to have a full happy life as a single person.
    But, I always sort of assumed that if/when I did meet a wonderful partner, it would lead to marriage. I guess it’s just the value I was raised with. 
    Does it change anything that we are planning to immigrate to another country in about six months’ time? I sort of thought it would be good to sort these things out before making such a big life change together.
    As it turns out, some other potential incompatibilities have surfaced over the last few months. In the interest of working at the relationship and not discarding a good man for the hope of an impossible ideal, I/we have been trying to sort through these snags. I think we are working them out. But it has made me realize that I should probably stress less about HIS problems with marriage, and spend the next while evaluating whether he would actually be the right husband for me. 
    Thanks for your kind words, again. I especially like the part where you say when I’ll be 32 I’ll still have so many good years ahead. That is refreshingly optimistic.

15. Goldie 15

    @ Katie “Does it change anything that we are planning to immigrate to another country in about six months’ time?”
     
    This may change a lot! My family came from my home country to the US on a refugee status, our close friends came on the husband’s student visa, a number of people I know came on the husband’s or wife’s work visa… in all those cases, if the man and the woman hadn’t been legally married, I really cannot think of a way they could’ve both come here together as a couple. There wouldn’t be any legal ground for the other person to come here. I guess it depends on the country and the type of immigration.
     
    “As it turns out, some other potential incompatibilities have surfaced over the last few months”
     
    I was wondering when you said in your letter that you two never had arguments. To me, for a (relatively) new couple, arguments are a way of locating any possible issues and working them out together.  If the couple has never or hardly ever argued in the whole time they’re together, then in all likelihood something is being swept under the rug Of course by arguing I mean having civil constructive discussions, not screaming matches.
     
    Thanks for the update and good luck with whatever you two decide!

16. SS 16

    Let me start with this… everyone has the right to their feelings about marriage. If one doesn’t want marriage, fine. If one does, fine. I don’t think people need to necessarily go through a ton of mental gymnastics to explain what they want or don’t want.
     
    As for me, marriage was always a given. A man uninterested in marriage was an immediate dealbreaker for me. I made no apologies for that… in fact, almost four years ago, a decent six-month relationship ended because the guy said he didn’t know if he’d be ready to think about marriage for at least three years (note, I was 30, he was 38). Not marry in three years, but think about marriage. He knew how I felt from the beginning, so my answer wasn’t a surprise. I said no dice. Didn’t give him an ultimatum (I don’t believe in those either), but just said that our beliefs and desires on marriage were incompatible.
     
    So we broke up. I met my husband six months later, he proposed a year after our first date, and we married seven months after our engagement. I sometimes shudder to think that I could have missed out on the love of my life because I was giving that other guy space and a chance… instead of celebrating one year of marriage (and a pregnancy), I’d probably be in the throes of a breakup with that guy who clearly had desires that were incompatible with mine.
     
    Meanwhile, I have a girlfriend who met a guy around the same time I met the first guy. He told her from the beginning that he didn’t believe in marriage (because of what he saw in his family, etc.). She gave him a chance, knowing she wanted to be married. Two years later, she let him go, noticing that he had not only not changed his mind, she had not met one family member of his during that time. She considers it a waste of two years and says she should have paid attention from the beginning to what he said. She’s 37 and back out there trying to date.
     
    My point is simply that if you want marriage Katie, you have every right to desire that and you don’t have to twist yourself and your desires to fit your boyfriend’s. 

17. Katie 17

    @Goldie #15 – Actually, in the country where we are going common-law relationships have the same legal status as marriage. 
    Yes, we almost NEVER argued at all in practically the first year of our relationship. I believe that some disagreements/arguments are healthy, but he really doesn’t like confrontation. I’ve adapted to that, more or less.

18. helene 18

    As others have touched on, I think it is important to realise that “marriage” means very different things to different people. It is not a single,straightforward concept. For some people, marriage is a symbol of their love and commitment, made public to the world. For others, it is a religious concept, to do with being right before God and bound in a spiritual union. For others it is an important legal arrangement offering stability and financial protection.For some, it is a mark of social status, a sort of “belonging to a club”, the ticket to certain social circles which function according to traditional norms.   In some cultures, it is a political arrangement to strengthen business arrangements and improve your power base.

    Katie, you said “Who knows why I care about marriage?” Well, if you don’t really know the answer to that, I think it would really  benefit your relationship for you to work it out in some detail. What does marriage symbolise to you? What does it give you? Because the problem is that whatever it symbolises to you will fester in your mind as “What my partner is NOT offering me”…. when in fact, this may not be the case at all. After working out what marriage means to you, you then need to ask your partner what it symbolises to HIM. These two things may be the same, or they may be totally different. What I’m getting at here is that if marriage to you symbolises “economic protection” or “total commitment” and your boyfriend won’t marry you, then in your mind you are thinking “he doesn’t want to offer me economic protection.”or “he doesn’t want to offer me total commitment”.  But if, to your boyfriend, marriage symbolises “a religious bond before God” and THIS is the concept he rejects, you may actually discover that he has no problem offering you economic protectionor total commitment, which is actually what you are looking for. Him saying he doesn’t want to get married imples (in your mind) that he is unwilling to give you those things, when in fact he may be perfectly happy to give you those things, he just doesn’t use the terminology “marriage” to describe it.   If however, your concepts of marriage are the SAME, and he doesn’t want it, then in that situation, you DO have a problem. In that case yes, he IS withholding the thing that you want because he doesn’t want to give you that. But at the very least, you will have clarified the situation, which sounds rather ill defined at present.

19. Katie 19

    @18 Very interesting thoughts, I hadn’t thought about that. I guess my definition would be the first one your wrote, “marriage is a symbol of their love and commitment, made public to the world.”

20. Jane 20

    I tend to agree with Ruby @4. Based on what I’ve read and seen among friends, if a woman is serious about wanting to get married, she loses her leverage if she lives with her boyfriend. For a guy, living with a girlfriend makes it seem like he’s “sort of” married. He will likely put off the bigger decision (to make it official) for as long as he can. Some couples who live together end up having children, and then the guy may decide he wants to be with someone else, leaving the mother of his children stranded, financially compromised, and likely heart broken.

21. Gem 21

    Katie can be patient and wait as long as she wishes but if I were her, I wouldn’t live with him prior to marriage (if it ever happens).
     
    The facts are she has a man who doesn’t believe in marriage. Imagine moving in, setting up house, mixing finances, and doing every other conceivable ‘married’ behavior sans the  marriage. He’ll likely find even LESS reason to marry then.
    He can say, “everything is wonderful the way that it is. If it ain’t broke don’t fix it.”
     
    She can still hope that if they decide to have kids, he’ll honor his promise to marry then. But he may not. AND, what if the pregnancy isn’t planned. What if it’s a surprise? He may say, “I don’t want to rush and get married just because you got pregnant. Let’s wait until you have the baby.”
     
    There can always be a reason to wait, and wait, and wait.
     
    The point is: How easy will it be to leave at any of these stages? After years of living together, investing time, home, money and possibly a child too? I’ve seen women find themselves in this situation.
     
    If you want marriage and you’re with a man who isn’t on board, don’t live with him now or even after the ring is on the finger. Wait until you’re actually married.

22. EA 22

    Regarding marriage – I think there’s something wrong either with the man or the relationship if it doesn’t happen. I believe one hundred percent that men are programmed to marry and if they won’t marry the woman they’re with, something is up. What is it? I haven’t figured that out, but as women, I think we do a disservice by trying.

    I will run screaming (and I have) from any new man in my life if he starts telling me he doesn’t want to get married. It indicates to me that he is controlling the future of your relationship without consulting you. That he doesn’t even need to get to know you or experience what a relationship with you is like before he makes up his mind. He’s basically TELLING you, like it or leave it. Doesn’t sound like much of a partnership to me.
    My story: 

    I took the track of waiting for my guy to come around to marriage and I’ll tell you what happened.

    We developed a close and loving bond. His family loves me. I’ve been with him during health problems and the death of his father. I feel that I can be my real self with him, ALL my best memories include him and losing him would feel like committing suicide it would feel so wrong and self harming.

    The problem? All this has happened over 16 years of waiting. We don’t live together and in fact, I moved three hours away for college 10 years ago and now we commute. There are no plans to live together, there are no plans to marry. Although he claims if I got pregnant that would “force” him to get over his “issues.” (religion is his biggest road block, which I think is super ironic).

    I am now 36 years old and suddenly, time no longer feels like it’s in endless supply. I have tried dating in the past, but I am so entangled with him that I probably need major time alone and therapy first just to be a suitable partner to someone new.

    I am trying to escape the relationship because I am tired of being alone 95% of the time. I don’t have a real partner or even a real life – I live with one foot in two cities. All the back and forth just adds stress and compromises my ability to handle my responsibilities.

    No matter how great you think someone is – there is something extremely important to be said about their ability to be a partner. 

23. Jane 23

    Another thought: Marriage is not the most important thing to me. I was unhappily married for many years, and as much as I want to great relationship in my life, getting married again, in my 50′s, isn’t on the top of my list. However, if I met the right man and marriage was really important to him, then of course, I would marry him. These choices and trade offs come up all the time in life. Katie’s boyfriend knows how much she wants to get married and he’s not stepping up. That could be an answer unto itself.

24. Dan 24

    Let me get this straight.
    1) The guy has “such a distorted view of marriage that he’s given up on it as an institution.” 2) The guy is psychologically damaged because he doesn’t want to get married. 3) EMK came around and got married, and all guys are like EMK, so this guy will come around and get married, too.
    This is a whole lot of BS to dump on a guy who isn’t even speaking for himself here.

25. Greg 25

    @Katie,

    I’ve dealt with women who “didn’t like confrontation.” I tried to accommodate this.  It led to disaster.  If you avoid talking about small problems, they will become BIG problems later.  One woman in particular didn’t like confrontation because she grew up in a family that couldn’t have civil, calm discussions.  Maybe your BF is like that, but its something that will have to change for there to be long term success.

    It’s also sad that so many women feel like they have to beg men to marry them.  Begging men, issuing ultimatums and the like are recipes for disaster.  If you pressure a man into marrying you, he will eventually resent it and it will likely lead to divorce.  A man has to want to marry you.  If a man doesn’t want to marry you, but marriage is important to you, you should end the relationship.  Find a man who does want to marry you.  Otherwise, you will never be happy.  Deciding whether marriage is in your future is a major deal, and I don’t think it is something you can compromise on.

26. AllenB 26

    @EA 22
    If a man tells you he doesn’t want to get married he is telling you his boundaries regarding his relationship with you. This is not about him controlling you, it is about telling you what he believes he has to offer. It is up to you to accept what he offers or leave. I am sorry you lost as much time as you have understanding this. Now that you have, you will move on if you want that.
     
    For some people a three hour commute relationship might be acceptable for a few years if you have a definite plan to end it (the commute part or the relationship part), but certainly not an ongoing 10 years, because it does impede growing roots outside of your relationship.
     
    No matter how great you think someone is – there is something extremely important to be said about their ability to be a partner.
     
    That is very well said. I add that what each person needs for a partner will be different depending on life circumstance and individual preference so there is no single partnering-ability litmus test.
    
     
    @Gem 21
    In many places when you “move in, set up house, mix finances, and do every other conceivable ‘married’ behavior sans the  marriage” you become married in the eyes of the law with all the rights, responsibilities and headache it takes to get out. All that is missing is the rite of passage ceremony. I believe there is value in that ceremony; the promise before friends and, if you are religious, God,  but many married people do not.
     

27. Goldie 27

    Re living or not living together before marriage, I’m biased in the other direction – we couldn’t really live together before marriage, so we didn’t. We took vacations together, visited each other when he was in school and I worked in another city, but that was about it. We moved in together a few months before getting married, but by then we were already past the point of no return — we’d agreed to get married a long time ago, he’d relocated for me and there was no way for either of us to back out. Pretty much as soon as we started living together and running a household together, I realized that we were so incompatible, and our ideas on how things should work in a family were so different, and our ability to negotiate and compromise so non-existent, it was never going to work. We kept trying for eighteen years, but never really got things to work the way a healthy marriage should. So from my experience, I’d rather be missing a ring on my finger than be stuck in a bad marriage with no easy way to get out. And there’s really no way to tell how the person is going to handle the “domesticity” until the two of you are living it.

28. Stacy 28

    Ok, here goes the rant.

    Evan, “become indispensable to him?” If she’s no indispensable after 4+ years, she never will.

    I always wonder what women who agree to open-ended living together arrangement are thinking, it just makes my blood boil when i hear these stories – “oh we’ve been living together for X years but he doesn’t want to marry me”. Honey, why would he? Why??

    Of course he’s never gonna put a ring on her finger, he already got her where he wants her – she is a de facto wife and provides domesticality and regular sex (hopefully) and financial help through shared expenses, yet he has no responsibilities towards her whatsoever. He can dump her like a hot potato if anything goes “wrong”. And, because she wants marriage so badly, and she gets advice such as this one – to become “indispensable” – she will be so much more eager to please and get his approval to get that ring, that he will definitely enjoy it wholeheartedly!

    To make it absolutely clear - the OP should’ve never moved in. Never. It is her call what to do now, but one way to figure out how much he really is into her is to distance herself. Not saying move out completely. Get a share house. Go on a long vacation w/o him. Start going out more with friends. Remind him that he doesn’t own her and that she won’t always be there waiting for him necessarily. She’ll have her answer soon enough – it may not be the answer she likes, but better that than finding herself disillusioned, bitter and single at the age of 32.

29. Stacy 29

    Helen #18

    While marriage may mean different things to different people, I think it is important to recognize what it ACTUALLY, factually means in this country where we live. Simply put, it means no freedom to bail when you want to and to do whatever the hell you want. If your spouse gets hit by a bus you can’t just leave them sitting in an empty apartment in a wheelchair and move on with your single life. Nope, no such luck. If you want to take out half of your 401K and spend it on gambling – surprise you can’t without your spouse’s consent. You can’t change your name without your spouse signing off on that. You can not take your kids on a vacation abroad w/o your spouse signing off. There’s limits on how you can will your assets. There’s so many limitations that come with marriage, that all this fluff about “statement to the world” and other stuff is really secondary. Personally, I don’t give rat’s ass about any statements to the world or any of those things, what concerns me is the actual implications of marriage. And I am a woman.

    I think a lot of women just tend to romanticize marriage and make it 99% about feelings, while men are more acutely aware of the actual implications, and therefore they marry only when they feel they have to and they are massively into you. All other b/s such as “don’t believe in marriage” is just a boatload of BS. It is marriage. What is there to believe in. If you just don’t want commitments and limitations that come with it, or you feel the woman in front of you is not worth it - just say so.

30. nathan 30

    EA – no one is “programmed” to marry. Where did you get that idea from anyway? Secondly, there are plenty of couples out there who are great partners to each other, but aren’t – for various reasons – married. Furthermore, I have known married couples with situations fairly similar to yours. One person got a job in another city. They rarely see each other. And the connection has weakened over time. Even if the guy you are with agreed to marry, you’d still have all the other issues to face. Getting married will not solve all your problems. That’s a fantasy.

31. Evan Marc Katz 31

    Yeah, you got that completely wrong, Dan. The guy DOES have a negative view of marriage from his childhood. You can act like that won’t negatively impact his worldview, but, by and large, everything that children see when they have poor parental role models negatively impacts their worldview. So there are your first two points. As for the third point, that if I got married that every man will want to get married, that’s obviously not the case.

    What is the case is that a man is more likely to get married when it’s on HIS terms, because he’s built a life with an indispensable woman who gets him, loves him, appreciates him and isn’t asking him to change. And if he moves in with the OP, has an amazing life, and wants kids – and the only way for him to do it is to get married, then I predict he’s going to get married. What exactly is wrong with that line of reasoning?

32. Dan 32

    EMK@31: 1) That’s what she says. You know, the one who wants to marry a guy who doesn’t want to marry her. 2) Who said anything about his having poor parental role models? Even she didn’t say that. 3) Unlike you and this woman, I don’t try to psychoanalyze folks from my armchair. As others have pointed out, this idea that people (especially men) are scarred animals who aren’t able to “sustain relationships” because of something that happened in childhood is both overblown and simplistic. People are a lot more complicated than that, and we develop our own unique “world views” using lots of different inputs. Most of which are our own thoughts and desires, not our parents’. We aren’t hapless pieces of clay in their hands. 

    The end of the story is this: He doesn’t want to get married. Those are his terms. Why don’t you and the girlfriend just leave him alone? This seems like it’s her problem and yours, not his.  

33. Evan Marc Katz 33

    Dan, this is my JOB. If you don’t like the way I do my job, go find a blog that you DO enjoy.

34. Angie 34

    Hi Katie,

    I feel there are certain genuine reasons that individuals may oppose marriage that is beyond their personal experiences, for example people desiring marriage equality with the gay community.  If your boyfriend’s childhood experiences are still personally affecting him and his marriage-views and he can’t differentiate your relationship from his parents’, you are in a different kind of situation.

    I have seen people in your situation, where one person is ready to commit while the other is on the fence, and the usual course of outcomes.  If the ready-to-commit partner is patient,  the other person eventually comes around… be it months or years.  I saw one guy promise his girlfriend a ring “in the spring”, “when he’s saved up the cash”, “well, he just bought a house so soon”… and after 2 years and a lot of distress, she got the ring and is happily planning her wedding.  I’ve seen other individuals – men and women – lay on too much pressure, too many threats, that the other person just bails.

    Just accept that you and your boyfriend are on different timelines.  Would you want to date a 21-year-old?  Probably not, because he wouldn’t be on your timeline.  And not only is your boyfriend not on your timeline, he doesn’t know what timeline he is on.

    Threats are pointless.  Accept your situation, enjoy your relationship, and know that it may or may not go anywhere, or leave.  

35. Lara 35

    Nathan & Dan: Thanks for the guy point of view. I get what you’re saying and agree.

    Well, it seems that the consensus on this one is that the guy probably won’t marry her, but she doesn’t lose by sticking it out a bit longer just in case he changes his mind.

36. Soul 36

    I believe people who don’t believe in marriage (for whatever reasons) have the same rights to be heard and understood than people who do believe in marriage. And I do not understand why it is always the ones who do want to get married who should win in this power struggle. I should probably add that some day, I myself wish to get married because my man does believe in marriage.

    One of my best friend had been going out with her boyfriend for 7 years. He did not believe in marriage whereas she did, very strongly. However, as she said it herself, she “loved him, and she wanted to be with him for life, everything else is icing on the cake”. 

    They had (and still have) a great relationship based on love and respect for each other, and acceptance for who they are. She had given up on the idea of getting married altogether (but she was happy and did not resent him: she understood that he could see the world differently and still be a good man).
    Well, completely unexpectedly, after 8 years, he proposed to her…an extremely unexpected and romantic proposal that he had been preparing secretly for 6 months!!! That was 5-6 years ago, and they now have 2 little boys. 

    When you ask him, my friends’s boyfriend says that he still thinks that marriage is like being in prison, but he adds that it is a great prison that you choose and enjoy because you have chosen it for your own reasons. tHen again, he adds that preparing the marriage proposal and knowing how happy he’d made her is a grat souvenir that he is going to cherish for a lifetime…

    People do what they want to do. If you love him and he is a great person, accept him as he is. Love him for who he is. He will love you for who you are in return. There is no greater gift on this earth. Everything else is icing on the cake.
     

37. Evan Marc Katz 37

    Soul – all it means is that the man who doesn’t want to get married to the OP is going to lose the woman of his dreams and the ability to have kids with her.

    That’s not a judgment. That’s a fact. It’s very hard to convince a woman who wants children to have kids out of wedlock because “he doesn’t believe in marriage”. She’ll find someone else to marry her. He’ll have a harder time forging a successful nuclear family unless he rethinks his stance on marriage.

    Personally, I don’t give a crap who does what in one’s personal life, but marriage is a signifier of stability and a commitment to the commitment itself. And one who is afraid of that, who wants an “out”, is probably not an ideal lifetime partner for a woman who is looking for someone to be present to raise children.

38. Stacy 38

    Soul #36

    In my opinion, a guy who thinks marriage is like “being in prison”, but enjoys the benefits that cohabitation provides has no valid point and his moral character is qustionable and so NO he does not deserve to “be heard”. If marriage is “prison” – be a lifetime bachelor – that is a respectful lifestyle choice. But actually living with a woman, having kids with her but no marriage? I’ve got a word for it: douchbag. He wants to have his cake and eat it too. I guarantee you that he’s got it aaall figured out in his head.

    Men are not “scared” or “don’t believe in” such things like being married, commitment, responsibility. They just chose not to give them, because they can get all they want without giving those things in return.

39. Soul 39

    # EMK – I do agree that marriage is a commitment to the commitment. That’s a very smart definition!

40. Soul 40

    # Stacy

    This guy did marry my friend. So I do not see why you are so angry in your answer. I am afraid my English phrasing might have misled you, I am sorry. 

41. Scorp 41

    I just had a breakoff with my boyfriend. We were together for 3 years he was not ready for commitment, i tried my best to make this relation work but had to left him when he said you go and get married to someone else and we will still be in relation.I felt disgusted with this man.

42. Angie 42

    Personally I don’t totally agree with the following statement in the post…“…marriage is a symbol of their love and commitment, made public to the world…”
    I think as long you are happy with each other in the relationship you have that should be enough. You are committing to eachother with love and wanting to be together…
     
    So why (as stated earlier) should you make a commitment to a commitment?
    All that matters is being happy together and hopefully have some lovely little ones in that loving relationship too.

43. Daisy 43

    @Soul: your friend’s story is very much like my friend then, except her boyfriend/partner proposed after 5yrs. After being married, he doesnt think of it as a “prison” though. He thinks that it was the best decision he’s ever made

44. Lara 44

    EMK@37: If he doesn’t want to get married and she does, maybe she isn’t the woman of his dreams. As other people on here have said, I don’t get it why he has to be made wrong because he doesn’t want to get married, or why people are making the assumption that he does but he just needs to get around to realizing that. Doesn’t no mean no for men, too?

    And there are many examples of stable family forms that don’t involve the American definition of marriage. In Scandinavia only about 35% of couples are married, and childrearing seems to work pretty well there. A lot of sociologists are saying that this is the direction the US is headed in because already most kids in the US are not raised in homes with 2 biological parents, only about 25% are. That’s not my opinion or my values talking–that’s the US Census. So don’t hate on me or tell me to go find some other blog just because I’m pointing out something that we all already know but that kinda goes against what you’re saying.  

45. Helen 45

    Katie: I was satisfied with Evan’s response until you chimed in again with the comment that you and your BF plan to move to a different country in a few months.
     
    Yes, that does change things dramatically; not just in the legal sense that Goldie mentioned. You will be losing your community, your network of support, and the comfortable, familiar ways of doing things. Even those who make a relatively mild expatriate move, such as from the US to Canada, struggle a great deal for several years.  You will be much more dependent on your boyfriend physically, emotionally, and financially. Even if he is a good man, he may resent this. Likewise, he will experience similar struggles, and it is likely to place a huge strain on the relationship.
     
    You didn’t go into details about why you’re making this move, but if it is for the sake of this guy, you should seriously reconsider. The last thing you want is to break up while living in a new, unfamiliar country. If there’s no serious commitment beforehand, I hate to say it, but I’d force the issue in this case (otherwise, it’s never recommended to force issues). He’ll be able to give you a definitive answer, and you may or may not experience some difficulties, but at least you will come to peace about it.
     
    Good luck.

46. Evan Marc Katz 46

    Because, Lara, as he said: he loves her and wants to have kids. In fact, he said he would marry her to make that happen. You caught that part, yes? And, as I pointed out a few posts ago, there aren’t many women that are going to stick around to be a “baby mama” for a guy who won’t put a ring on her finger.

    As a result, he doesn’t get the family that he craves. Which is why SHE has greater options than he has. She’ll be able to find another marriage/kids-minded man. He may have a harder time finding a woman who’s willing to bring children into the world without a formal commitment.

    This is not about what I believe, Lara. And saying that only 25% of families contain two biological parents doesn’t negate the fact that this is the chosen and optimal way to bring kids into the world. The fact that 50% get divorced and 25% are irresponsible enough to have kids out of wedlock doesn’t make the case that the OP should just give up on the idea of marriage, like they do in Scandinavia.

47. nathan 47

    “The fact that 50% get divorced and 25% are irresponsible enough to have kids out of wedlock doesn’t make the case that the OP should just give up on the idea of marriage, like they do in Scandinavia.” Wow, you sound like a right wing, social conservative with that statement Evan. In general, I’m noticing a deep lack of compassion towards this guy in this conversation, and towards anyone who questions marriage for any reason – even if they end up getting married eventually.
     
    In my opinion, it might actually be those who question getting married, and really think about why they are doing it, that will have the best marriages. I fully support the OP’s desire for marriage, but wonder how much she’s actually thought about what it means for her, beyond the conventional platitudes like demonstrating commitment, etc. I also think the OP is right to wonder about her boyfriend’s resistance to marriage because he might – I stress might – be stringing her along for a ride that ends in weak commitment. But instead of dumping him tomorrow, or jumping to conclusions, this seems like the time to really explore what’s going on. To ask questions of herself and learn more about her boyfriend’s viewpoint.
     
    Another thing I question is the idea that she’ll be able to find another man who is marriage minded. Maybe, maybe not. There aren’t any guarantees in life. And frankly, if she loves this guy as she says she does, it’s worth making more effort to really understand him on this issue before making a final decision. And if he loves her as he seems to, then he will be willing to really consider what’s truly behind his decision to marry her at some point.

48. EA 48

    I’m afraid I don’t know one single couple who claim to be content without marriage where both people actually are. In fact, those relationships usually end very badly, even after houses are bought, pets are adopted and years upon years are spent. In the cases I’ve seen, the woman is usually pretending it’s okay, yet even when she is given all the trappings, there is something about the validation of that commitment that reigns supreme and over shadows everything else.

    Look at it in terms of having a job. When looking for a job, most people realize they will dedicate a great deal to their employer. So they typically look for a company with a reputation for being loyal to employees, promoting from within, good benefits, so they aren’t left high and dry after giving it their all for years. Now think of a job where you are welcome to come and give it your all, in fact, it’s expected, but say you’re a contract employee. You work as hard, maybe harder and maybe do a better job than your coworkers, but you don’t get benefits and you’re never sure when the contract will end. 

    Time passes. You don’t get offered a permanent position and so you aren’t eligible for promotion. However, workers all around you are getting hired on. No one on earth would argue that you should keep plugging away at a job with no commitment to keep you around and no rewards or benefits. Yet people who “just don’t believe in marriage” ask that of their partners every day. Furthermore, they act as if they just can’t understand why it would bother anyone. Feelings are invalidated and one person’s wants/needs are more important than the other person’s.

    Another interesting little phenomenon is this. It’s usually NEVER the marrigae phobic person who walks away. They hang on just as long as they can, in their pseudo marriage, placing all the onus on the other person. To me, that says something significant. 

    I would advise anyone wouldn’t consider marrying the person they are seeing, to really evaluate whether or not you are using that person or biding time until someone you’re actually sure of stumbles across your path. I know I’ll get a bunch of disagreements, but I think that’s what’s going on most of the time in those situations.

49. EA 49

    I also want to clarify that I am NOT referring to the early part of the relationship where hopefully, both people are be earnest and open minded.

    I wholly agree with what I’ve read on this blog about most men honestly trying to figure out what they want as opposed to just using people.

    I even think in the case of the OP, if her BF is sincere, she can maintain in that situation. I would be a little skeptical of his intentions though. He could just be trying to appease her.

    But that brings up another point. “I’m not getting married,” is not a boundary to me, it’s stating one person’s preference for the trajectory of the relationship. The problem is, it’s a definitive regarding a situation that BOTH parties are supposed to have a say in. That’s what I meant by controlling. When uttered at the beginning of a relationship, is an inappropriate as “what do you want to name our kids?” It is not the equivalent of “I will leave if you ever hit me.” That’s a boundary. 

    That said, I don’t have to stick around for that outcome. I was only remarking that it seems like a controlling attitude. It’s also kind of stupid in my book because you really don’t know if you’re talking to the woman who will steal your heart and inspire you to reconsider. Notice I said inspire – not convince. 

     

50. Evan Marc Katz 50

    Nathan – this post just pushes your buttons because YOU aren’t sure you want to get married. Therefore, if I question the wisdom of having kids outside marriage, I’ve suddenly become Rick Santorum, instead of the fiercely liberal guy that I really am. Perhaps this is why conservatives snipe at us – because saying things like “marriage is good for the stability of the nuclear family” becomes a controversial statement, when, in fact, it’s merely common sense. Don’t let your bias at being contrarian or being against marriage affect your good sense, my friend.

    Because for all you doubt our 29-year-old OPs inability to find a marriage oriented man (yeah, that new world order is coming FAST!), the fact remains: the percentage of people who have ever been married by the age of 55 is still 95%. Marriage isn’t a good idea for everybody, but let’s not suggest for a half second that it’s obsolete.

    For people who want to raise kids in a stable, two-parent environment, it’s still the best bet. Ask the homosexuals who want to get married if it’s silly and antiquated.

    I’m not attacking people who don’t want to get married, but I won’t back down on the fact that marriage is good for families and that there are no shortage of marriage minded men for our original poster.

51. Soul 51

    This post (and also EMK’s reaction) is living proof that things like marriage, religion, politics etc… are mostly personal opinion/values. As a consequence, I believe that there is no point in trying to convince others: just keep your opinion for yourself or, if you want to share what your own personal take on the issue is, just share it for the sake of sharing/ getting to know each other better. 

    So just to share, here’s my personal opinion:

    - I do want to get married; 
    - I fully understand people who do not want to get married; 
    - I know for a fact that marriage is NOT a proof os stability for children (tons of research worldwide show that the stability actually stems from the COMMITMENT, but marriage is not the only, nor necessarily the better, form of commitment) 
    - I could live with my man and have children without getting married;
    - I CANNOT live with sb who does not understand that getting married is just a personal value and NOT a value above others;
    - Similarly, I cannot live with anybody who thinks that their religion/culture is better than others’.

    In short, being openminded (i.e. my definition of it) is an absolute non-negotiable for me. Getting married is not. That’s just who I am.  

52. EA 52

    “In short, being open minded is an absolute non-negotiable for me. Getting married is not. That’s just who I am.”
    Beautifully said. 

     

53. Lara 53

    EMK@46: You read what I said wrong. Only 25% of all children in the US are living with both biologicial parents, acc to the US Census. That means that 75% are not. That also means that we are already there.

54. Evan Marc Katz 54

    No, Lara. I heard you loud and clear. I said that just because we are already there 50% are divorced and 25% are having kids out of wedlock – doesn’t mean that this is a successful paradigm for raising children. In fact, if the state of the U.S. is any indication, the destruction of the nuclear family has been devastating. To say that because most families are failures that therefore it’s a good idea to forgo a traditional nuclear family is simply a fallacy. Go try your illogic on someone else.

55. Lara 55

     soul@51: You’re right about this: “marriage is NOT a proof os stability for children (tons of research worldwide show that the stability actually stems from the COMMITMENT, but marriage is not the only, nor necessarily the better, form of commitment).” Glad you made that point. I’ve read about family systems extensively, and it’s a bit annoying that this 1950s idea of the nuclear family as being a superior family system is still getting air play. It’s not even the way most families have been structured throughout time. Read Stephanie Koontz on the history of marriage (and family). This mom-pop-biological-kids-unit-under-one-roof has only been in play for the last generation or so. I really wish people would lose that myth.  

56. Gem 56

    Allen #26,
    friends a“In many places when you “move in, set up house, mix finances, and do every other conceivable ‘married’ behavior sans the  marriage” you become married in the eyes of the law with all the rights, responsibilities and headache it takes to get out. All that is missing is the rite of passage ceremony. I believe there is value in that ceremony; the promise before and, if you are religious, God,  but many married people do not.”

    
    Katie believes there is value in that ceremony too, which is why she should find a man feels the same. If it’s not this guy, maybe another. I believe it would be easier for her to leave, if it’s not this guy, if she doesn’t become a common law sudo wife in the meantime.
    
    Nathan #47
    Evan said: “The fact that 50% get divorced and 25% are irresponsible enough to have kids out of wedlock doesn’t make the case that the OP should just give up on the idea of marriage, like they do in Scandinavia.”
    
    You said: “Wow, you sound like a right wing, social conservative with that statement Evan.”
    Evan sounds like a “right-wing social conservative” as if it’s a bad thing , because he doesn’t think Katie should give up on the idea of marriage.
    Look, the guy doesn’t believe in/want marriage and may never. It doesn’t make him psychologically flawed, but it doesn’t make his ideas about marriage more highly evolved either. Or something Katie should bend to just to be with him.
     
     
     

    
     

57. Helen 57

    Lara, that is a very surprising statistic of only 25% of American kids with both parents present in the home: Will you please provide the source for that?  Based on my own experience, most of the kids who go to school with my kids have two-parent families, but it could be a midwestern phenomenon.

58. Lara 58

    No, EMK, you still aren’t reading it right. I am NOT saying that 25% of people are having children out of wedlock–where are you even getting that from. I am saying that 75% of children DO NOT LIVE WITH BOTH BIOLOGICAL PARENTS. That means that 75% of children in the US live with one biological parent alone, with neither biological parent, with one biological parent and a step parent, with foster parents, with extended family, or in an institutional setting. Only 25% of children come home to mom and pop. This is not a statistic that discusses whether or not the parents were married when the child was conceived.

59. Evan Marc Katz 59

    This is the end of this circular conversation, Lara, and because it’s my blog, I get the last word:

    We AGREE that only 25% of kids come home to mom and pop. (Although I don’t know where you got this from, I’ll take your word for it.). So what does that mean for the 75% who don’t? It means that the parents are either divorced, widowed, or never married. And doing some crude statistics, I said that if 50% were divorced, then 25% were never married.

    In fact, a quick Google search reveals that “nearly 40 percent of babies born in the United States in 2007 were delivered by unwed mothers”.

    All in all, Lara, you can say that this new status quo is indicative of progress. I, for one, believe that two-parent households are better environments for kids. And it’s not that it’s IMPOSSIBLE for two unmarried people to stay together for 40 years and raise kids, it’s that there’s not a very strong track record of that.

    If you don’t want kids, don’t get married.
    If you do want kids, the institution and the commitment to the commitment of marriage takes on even greater importance.

    I say this not as a married guy – since I’ve only been married for 3 years. I say this as a guy who sees the amount of time and attention that a child needs from its parents.

    One final study says: “Research clearly demonstrates that family structure matters for children, and the family structure that helps the most is a family headed by two biological parents in a low-conflict marriage.” Why this would be hard to accept is beyond me. Doesn’t mean that there aren’t possible alternative success stories, but that if you’re trying to build a successful family, you might want to start with a healthy marriage.

    Oh, and by the way, further digging indicates that your numbers aren’t quite right. One look at the CDC report from 2001-2007 shows that 48.4% of families are nuclear with tons of variations for the other 51.6% (3.1% cohabiting, 13.6% single mom, 19% extended families, 8.7% blended families, etc). The numbers for black families show only 20% nuclear families, which pulls the overall number downward. Feel free to look at this at the CDC website if you want to doubt the veracity of my claims.

    And go read a book like Predictably Irrational or How We Decide to see how even if I present you facts that contradict your beliefs, you’re still going to want to believe in your original premise even stronger. That’s human nature. But don’t sit here and tell me that the CDCs facts about nuclear families leading to healthier lives for children are misleading. They’re not promoting marriage. They’re simply reporting what they see.

    My loyalty, too, is to the truth. It just so happens that committed, stable families are good for kids and it just so happens that I am descended from a committed, stable family and am part of another one with my wife and baby. This doesn’t mean that I’m better. This doesn’t mean I look down on those who don’t have wives and kids. It does mean that my marriage is at the heart of how we’re raising our daughter, and that studies seem to agree with my take on things. Finally, just because individuals have not been married and raised healthy kids doesn’t mean that this is indicative of a “better” way of doing things – no more than George Burns smoking cigars for 80 years is a guide to optimal health. So please, no more arguments in this space about the virtues of marriage for the sake of the kids. Stability is good for kids. Case closed. (And NO, I don’t think that EVERY marriage is the bastion of stability, so please don’t go about making that claim against me either…)

    If you have a post on the original subject, feel free to continue. If you don’t, I’m shutting this one down. I have work to do.

60. nathan 60

    Gem “Look, the guy doesn’t believe in/want marriage and may never. It doesn’t make him psychologically flawed, but it doesn’t make his ideas about marriage more highly evolved either. Or something Katie should bend to just to be with him.” Of course, I never said that his ideas were better. In fact, I specifically said she should wonder about his motives and have some serious conversations to get at what his whole story is. But hey – if it’s easier to flip my comments into black and white statements, have at it.
     
    Also, as Lara pointed out, the nuclear, mother and father led family is NOT a traditional form. It’s a product of the latter half of the industrial revolution. And I would argue that the families which do the best are families with lots of interaction with grandparents, uncles, aunts, and good friends. My own experience was that without my mother’s parents, as well as some good-hearted neighbors, m sister and I would have had a much worse time of it. Half of my childhood, my parents were together. The other half, they were divorced. It always made a difference that many others were helping out, taking care of us, putting significant chunks of time in. 
     
    Now, I say all that partly because it grates on me how flimsy the word traditional has become these days, but more to the point, because I still wonder about the OP’s sense of what marriage is about. Do her and her boyfriend have good enough connections with their parents and extended family to help raise children? How much of the worry is tied to fears of having to raise a child alone, or mostly alone? I think those are very legitimate fears by the way, but am trying to expand the idea that marriage is not solely about your partner. Unless you’ve cut off ties with your family, they’re part of the deal. Sometimes a large part of the deal, for better or worse.
     
    In the end, I’m not – as Evan and other might think – against marriage. I’m pro a diversity of options. There’s a difference. Furthermore, given the OP’s desire to get married, I’m trying to leave comments that perhaps could aid her in finding the information she needs to make a decision about being with her boyfriend. That’s all.
     
     
     
     
     
     

61. Helen 61

    nathan, I understand your viewpoint, even as a married woman. Modern American society has made a monster of marriage in some ways. We put it on a pedestal – we expect SO MUCH from it that it is nearly impossible for any human being to fulfill these expectations, and when they don’t, the fall is spectacular – custody fights, lawsuits, bankruptcy, the whole mess. 

    This being the current situation, I can understand why some people want to avoid marriage entirely, even if they didn’t have tumultous upbringings,  I can also understand why others like you are asking, “Can’t we come up with other options for loving relationships that have neither such high expectations nor such dreadful fallout?”

    As a society, I don’t think we’ve arrived at a solution yet. The concept of the prenuptial agreement is one way to deal with marital expectations.  But there needs to be more: a real understanding in people’s hearts of how human relationships really are, and recognizing that we’re all flawed and likely to hurt others even if we have good intentions. 

    Someone in another of Evan’s threads mentioned ”managing expectations.” That absolutely applies here. I think in past generations, people didn’t expect as much of their marital relationships, and hence, there were fewer divorces. Sure, it was also because divorce was more difficult, but lower expectations and more acceptance of difficult times almost certainly played a role as well.

62. Soul 62

    # EMK : you said “And go read a book like Predictably Irrational or How We Decide to see how even if I present you facts that contradict your beliefs, you’re still going to want to believe in your original premise even stronger.”

    it’s true, and it does apply to yourself too. 

63. Evan Marc Katz 63

    I’m waiting for the facts, Soul. Lay ‘em on me.

64. Soul 64

    #EMK:

    I have not given a lot of time to research this. I just went on google scholar and there are lots of scientific studies. For those who cannot read French, google translation might be helpful just to understand at least the graphs.

    Just a quick example of a study showing that in France, the divorce rate is higher than the rate of dissolution of the PACS (another type of commitment between two people). It is even more true is you only consider the PACS between heterosexual people. http://www.challenges.fr/file/436/376436.pdf

    Of course, we can find caveats in any study, but there are tons of other studies on this subject in Europe, and my point is just the following: you cannot affirm that marriage is the more stable form of commitment as a fact, because there is existing evidence that it might not be the case. 

    Evan, I don’t want to argue actually, because I understand your point in this post, and I do agree with what you said. I agree that a proof of commitment should not be a problem if somebody is committed. 

65. Evan Marc Katz 65

    Soul, you posted a study in French, using a term (PACs) that’s not familiar to me. As I’ve stated, I will always defer to facts over feelings, and if you have proof that children raised by “PACs” are better off than children raised by married couples, I will gladly concede the case.

66. amy 66

    There’s a good book called “the seven principles of marriage” that says that when couples are in gridlock over an issue – religion, money, kids, etc. Each person should have an opportunity to talk about what they want means to them – without criticism or judgment or judging the other person. The book says that most issues have a deeper or “core” issue behind them, and once you can figure out what the core issue is (He wants to save money because it makes him feel secure, unlike his childhood vs. her need to feel like she’s living life to the fullest) it’s much easier to defang an issue and come to a compromise.
     

67. Lara 67

    Unfortunately, the CDC data does not address the issue at hand, which is how many children live in what we call a traditional family arrangement. I will explain.
     
    First, we have to address Nathan’s question—what does “traditional family” mean? From this blog it seems that it means hetero man meets hetero woman, they fall in love, they get married, they have a kid that shares their DNA, and they raise it till death to they part. This is what most people mean when they use the phrase.
     
    Back to the CDC data. In talking about whom children live with, the data you cite uses the term “married parents.” This term would include step parents, even though step parents are not biological parents. The data do break out children who are living with biological parents, but it does not detail what that arrangement means. So the data may not say what they seem to be saying. Case in point: My sister is divorced and remarried, one child. Custody of my nephew is shared jointly, so he lives with both of his biological parents. When he is with my sister, he also lives with a stepfather. So he lives with two “married parents,” and he also lives with two “biological parents.” But his two biological parents are not married, nor are they living together. This is a very common living arrangement. But you cannot say that my nephew lives in a traditional family, even though he would show up in the CDC data as living with married, biological parents.
     
    The data you cite also treat adoptive children in the same way that they treat biological children. So if a married couple divorces and has joint custody of their adoptive child, the child would show up in the data as living with both biological parents, even though the parents are not married and the child is a biological offspring of neither of them. The data also would treat gay couples that are married the same as it would heterosexual couples. If the married gay couple had a biological child, that child would legally be considered the biological offspring of both (according to the parameters of the study), even though that cannot possibly be true. The same situation would be true of hetero couples who use donated eggs or sperm, even though at best a child so conceived is only the biological child of one person in the couple. So, in the CDC data you would have the adoptive or non-biological children of married gay couples counting as children living with married, biological parents, as you would children conceived with donated sperm, donated eggs, and a surrogate. Yet the children of these unions/conception methods are not living in traditional families.
     
    So I still say that the majority of children do not live in traditional families anymore. The 25% figure would take into consideration the diversity of situations I laid out above, which the CDC figures do not. But I’m getting the source of the 25% figure for you so you can read it for yourself—it’s from a book I read recently. Probably Andrew Cherlin’s book called “The Marriage-Go-Round.”
     
    Also, a footnote: The divorce rate doesn’t factor into the equation at all unless there is a 1:1 correlation with the act of getting married and the act of having a child, which there isn’t. Not every marriage produces a child. So the divorce rate (50%) wouldn’t tell us anything about the prevalence of children living in nontraditional families.

68. Sayanta 68

    Lara-

    please. Let it go.  

69. Lara 69

    Sayanta: People asked for the explanation, and I responded. Sorry if that bothers you. Also, for those who are interested and want to look for themselves, I was looking at the most recent CDC report, from 2009.

70. Lawyer Gal 70

    Lara@67: Here are the numbers you’re looking for, from a law journal at Boston College. The citations are a little old, though:
    
    “In the United States today, less than 25% of the population live in traditional families–that is, families consisting of legally married parents and their children.(2)The other 75% live in various types of “non-traditional” families.(3)Of these, the Bureau of the Census estimates that approximately 2.6 million households are composed of unmarried heterosexual couples living together, and that another 1.6 million are composed of same-sex couples living together.(4)
      
    Footnote 2: The Committee for Family Protection, Family Protection Act Summary, 1 (1991) (on file with author) (this summary of impact of municipal domestic partnership ordinances was prepared by proponents of domestic partnership ordinance proposed in Boston, Massachusetts in Spring 1991).
     
    Footnote 3: See Vada Berger, Domestic Partnership Initiatives, 40 DEPAUL L. REv. 417, 417 n.3 (1991).
     
     Footnote 4: Victor F. Zonana, Census Will Count” Unmarrred Partners” for First Time, L.A. TIMES, Feb. 15, 1990, at A38.
     

71. Evan Marc Katz 71

    This has strayed far from the original point, but just to put a cap on it, less than 25% of the population living in traditional families does NOT make Lara’s case. That’s 25% of the ENTIRE population. We were talking about the percent (and well-being) of kids who are brought up in traditional nuclear families. And since the non partisan CDC says that’s about 50% of children are brought up that way, that’s the figure we’re going to go with.

72. Saint Stephen 72

    Less than 25% of the population living in traditional families and 25% of kids coming home to their biological mum and dad are two completely different things. Lara must have read it wrongly.

73. Lara 73

    Thanks for the stats, Lawyer Girl, but I agree with EMK that they don’t address the question at hand, even though they do contribute to sociologists’ investigation into an answer. That said, I don’t agree with EMK’s figure either for the reasons I cited above. The CDC isn’t collecting data that answer the question “how many children are living in traditional nuclear families,” so they wouldn’t define what is meant by “traditional nuclear family” or collect data in a way that can be broken out into traditional versus nontraditional families (the US Census does, however). There are sociologists (like Cherlin) who do study this, so we can turn to them for a more thorough discussion of how one might arrive at a clear picture of what is going on the US regarding families. The problem, which I allude to above, is the difficulty in getting accurate demographic data on families given the constant churn in people’s personal lives and the cultural murkiness surrounding terms like “biological child” and “married parents” and “traditional nuclear family.” Sociologists are having a very hard time with it.

    To bring the discussion back to the original post: given the complexity of modern relationships and the seismic shifts in our culture regarding families and marriage–which demographic data of every stripe indicate–and given the lack of any clear roadmap on how to negotiate these changes, I vote for accepting people on the terms they establish for themselves. The OP’s boyfriend probably knows what he wants for himself better than the OP or EMK does. The OP knows what she wants. The two “wants” are not in synch. And at the end of the day, he’s going to do what he chooses to do. Trying to force him into something because you want it, or because you think the world should be some way that it isn’t, is 1) wrong and 2) will probably not work because it is wrong.

74. Evan Marc Katz 74

    Lara, it’s really as simple as this: does he want to have children more than he doesn’t want to get married? Since he already stated that he did want to have children and that he would get married if they did, I happen to think that this is a more realistic possibility than deciding he doesn’t want children…or trying to impregnate a woman who doesn’t want to get married either. You still disagree with me?

75. Lara 75

    In re-reading the original post, I don’t see where he ever said that he’d get married if they had children. The OP said that he believed in long-term commitment and family (which implies having children, I suppose), but not marriage. The OP suggested that he’d give in and get married to keep her, not because he wanted marriage for himself or because he felt marriage was necessary to have children.

76. Evan Marc Katz 76

    Not sure what part of this line you are willfully managing to ignore, Lara, but I would just look at the text itself: “He’s offered the following compromise: in a few years, when we decide to have kids, then we can get married.” Which evidently means that he’d overcome his aversion to marriage in order to create a family with his beloved girlfriend. Still going to disagree because you don’t want this to be true?

77. DFL 77

    If you compare the sorry state of the US (EMK #54) to the rather happy state of Scandinavian countries you have to come to the conclusion that the “destruction of the nuclear family” has nothing to do with the state of society – otherwise the state of Scandinavian countries would have to be worse, but it isn’t.
    Second, to accuse entire people of several countries of being irresponsible for having children out of wedlock is, in fact, the kind of rhetoric that would make Santorum proud.
     
    Closer to the topic, to all the women who demand marriage before cohabitation: I personally am not opposed to marriage, though I do think it is quite overrated. I do know, however, that I’d never marry before cohabitation – do you think it is a good idea to make the Big Commitment to the commitment before I know that we’d function as a unit in daily life? I don’t.

78. Lara 78

    I understand “He’s offered the following compromise: in a few years, when we decide to have kids, then we can get married” as saying he’ll give in on marriage to have kids with her (see my post #75). I don’t understand this statement to mean that he needs or wants marriage for himself in its own right. As a matter of fact, I understand it as saying that he doesn’t need marriage in order to have kids, but that because she does he’ll go through with it. If she takes away the marriage requirement he isn’t going to suddenly start demanding that they get married, and from what the OP says, if they have kids and aren’t married he’d be OK with that.

    Analogy: A couple decides to drive from L.A. to San Francisco. He wants to take Rt 101. She insists on Rt 1 or she won’t go, no negotiation, end of story. He gives in because he wants to travel to San Fran with her. But if she’s suddenly out of the picture he isn’t going to be taking Rt 1. As a matter of fact, if she strong-arms him into taking Rt 1 the trip may not turn out to be a pleasant one unless she is damn good company. You ask: Does he want to drive along Rt 101 at the expense of going wtih her? There’s another question: Does she want to drive along Rt 1 at the expense of going with him?      

    Maybe she doesn’t love him enough.

79. Gem 79

    I seriously question the sincerity of the guy’s compromise. If he’s against the institution of marriage and doesn’t see a need for it, why would he go ahead and do it if children were involved? Why would children change anything in his mind?
     
    So as not to lose her? Maybe. But maybe it’s a way of ending the discussion for now and another 2 years. She’s hoping he’ll change his mind or honor his compromise (if it ever gets to that), and he’s possibly hoping she’ll change her mind, and realize she doesn’t need it marriage after all. By that time, she’ll have 3 1/2 years invested living with this guy, acting like a wife but not being one. Too big a risk, imo.
     
    If it were me, I’d move out TODAY. If she wants to be married, she deserves to be married to a man who chooses to marry her; not one who might go along with it someday. They are not 19, they’re in their late 20′s. After a year 1/2, they should have a pretty good idea if they are IT for each other. I wouldn’t give him another 2 years to decide.
     
    She should move out now, keep dating him, not say another word about marriage and in 6 months, break up stating the reason as: “We don’t want the same things. I love you, I want to spend my life with you, but I want marriage and a family and you have said you don’t believe in marriage. You have the right to live as you believe and so do I.”
     
    No crying, no drama, no ultimatum. If he decides he can’t live without her, she’ll have a ring on her finger (that he decides to give her all on his own) or she won’t. At least she’ll have her answer.

80. Helen 80

    DFL and Gem, you both made GREAT points.

    DFL, I agree that this whole hypothesis that the nuclear family is crucial to a stable society is nonsense. It’s amazing how many just swallow this hypothesis whole without taking a look around the world! Some of the countries worldwide that enforce a strong family structure are the absolute worst in the world: take a look at the UN Human Development Indices for nations. Now, take a look at the Scandinavian countries: lower marriage rates than virtually any place worldwide, female rights, gay rights, universal health care, strong economies, high education rates, high life expectancies. What’s not to love?

    Gem, I agree with you on both points that it rubs one the wrong way that the guy is saying that having KIDS is a prerequisite to marriage, and that she should move out today. The latter, I especially agree with because of Katie’s comment that they’re supposed to move to a foreign country in a few months. With a commitment as seemingly flimsy as what’s described here, I would say absolutely not – she should stay in the country of her roots. I think there’s a lack of appreciation for just how difficult and stressful it is to be an expatriate: any cracks that exist in a relationship now, without a solid commitment, will likely cause the relationship to disintegrate. And it ain’t fun when that happens thousands of miles away from one’s homeland.

81. SS 81

    Re: nuclear families.
     
    Let me just say that I fully support so-called non-traditional families that include gay and lesbian couples and families with stepparents. I also think that extended families are crucial to a child’s development and the strength of the nuclear unit as well. Grandparents are a godsend to most parents, and aunts and uncles can provide additional wisdom and insight. The more people available to provide love and support for a child, the better.
     
    However, let’s get real. If we are talking about the United States of America, where most of EMK’s readers live, it is unquestioned that children do better overall in homes where there are two parents (I don’t care about the gender of those parents). Yes, people get divorced and there might be time in which a child is in a “broken” home… or the mom doesn’t have a partner to begin with and does everything alone and still raises a quality human being… but we only need to look at many of our inner-city (and rural) communities and notice the poorer outcomes for those children to see that the single-parent structure does not work en masse in this country.
     
    And before anyone calls me a racist, I’m African-American and liberal with tons of friends and family members who teach (or do social work) in urban school systems, and they say every day how their jobs are more and more difficult because the children they deal with come from unstable family structures in which a lack of marriage 9 times out of 10 means that no father is involved in the raising of the children.
     
    You can’t compare the USA to Scandinavia, where you’ve got a federal system of different state laws versus a national one, and where strong benefits and high taxes are much easier to institute across populations of 9 million vs. 300 million. With the conservatives in the USA wanting to cut benefits and say they don’t care about the “very poor,” we are zillions of years from having a system like Sweden or Norway or Denmark.
     
    So, I’d rather deal in reality of what I see day after day on the ground floor in the United States versus wistfully looking at Sweden… and saying that for an American woman who wants kids, marriage is the strongest legal and social protection she has… and giving that up for someone who “doesn’t believe in marriage” could result in significant long-term legal consequences for herself and her children.

82. Lawyer Gal 82

    Sorry for not getting back sooner re: the US Census stats I mentioned above. While they don’t give us the number of children raised in traditional nuclear families v nontraditional families, the number of traditional v nontraditional households would be correlated to that number. In other words, in order to figure out the number of kids raised in a distribution of households, you need to know what the distribution of households actually is. People have sex everywhere, not just in traditional nuclear families, and kids are born into all sorts of family settings. That the number of traditional nuclear family households is so low relative to nontraditional supports the statistic that 25% (or thereabouts) of kids are raised in nontraditional family settings. I find that number believable and even likely, given the high number of nontraditional households in the US.

    Of course, if you are white, wealthy, and live in the Midwest, you might think the number of traditional nuclear families is higher since that’s what you see; if you’re African American or Scandinavian you might think the number is lower, since that’s what you see. That ole confirmation bias in action.

83. Joe 83

    If I were the boyfriend I would end the relationship with the OP immediately. Because here’s what we know about her. She says hurtful things to him. She issues ultimatums. She moved in with him and built a life with him without needing to get married, but then pulled a switcheroo on the issue. When she recognized a major incompatibility between them, instead of ending things respectfully, she threatened to leave at some point in the future of her choosing, unless he changes. She offers no compromise in teturn. She makes his point of view wrong and attributes it to some past trauma he suffered. She belittles his past trauma and suggests that she is better than he because she was not traumatized like he was. She takes her problem to a pro-marriage, family values dating coach to drum up support for her treatment of him. She does all this right when he’s planning to move abroad, likely a move that is positive and exciting for him, at a time when he’s young and can do it without being encumbered.

    Dude. Get out. Now.

84. Evan Marc Katz 84

    Hey Joe, that’s what YOU’d do. What you don’t seem to realize is that he LOVES her. That he WANTS to have kids with her. That they have a great relationship worth preserving. That the only thing that they seem to disagree on is whether he should have to put a ring on her finger or not. This isn’t a moral issue. No one is speaking poorly about him. The OP has every right to question whether she should stay with him…and he has every right to question whether he stays with her. Unfortunately, there’s no compromise between marriage/no-marriage, so one of them, if they are to preserve their union, is going to have to change his/her mind. And if you paid attention to my advice, I told her to give him a shot, and he would likely agree to marriage. I didn’t say this because I’m “pro-marriage and family” (although it’s hard to be anti-marriage and family). I said this because HE said that he would agree to marry her if they had kids – and if he’s a man of his word, he will. If he doesn’t, they can both move onto more compatible partners. I don’t see why you’d be judgmental of the OP or myself. Says a lot more about YOUR feelings on marriage than the OP’s boyfriend.

85. Joe 85

    I think you’re reading something into her letter that she never said. She  never said that he loved her or that she’s some great love of his life. You keep going there because that’s what you want to be true about this story. This guy has been the same all along, and for a long time. He never misled her or pretended to be something he isn’t. She changed her mind–he didn’t change his. I don’t know why you won’t admit this.  I’d go so far as to say that he is maybe even leading her on in saying they’d get married some day. I predict that that’ll be the next letter you get from this OP–that he said he’d marry her and now all these years later he’s dragging his feet and why is that when he agreed, blah blah blah.

    He agreed under duress. You know what they call it when men do this to women.

86. Evan Marc Katz 86

    @Joe – He said he’d marry her if they had kids. I’m not sure exactly why he would say that if he didn’t mean it.

    And if he didn’t mean it, then he’d be a liar, a user and have no integrity for making a promise he had no intention of fulfilling. Somehow, I don’t think that was the point you were trying to make. Either he’s a good guy who is willing to overcome his anti-marriage bias in order to be a good father… or he’s a liar who just said that to get the little woman off his back and buy a few more good years until she decides she can’t take it anymore. So which is it, Joe?

87. Katie 87

    Ahhhhhh… I knew it would only be a matter of time until someone got a bit nasty.
    For the record, I do love him, he loves me, and no I don’t think there’s something “wrong” with his point of view; I know plenty of other people who have that viewpoint on marriage and I can see where they are coming from.Only once I found myself in love, in a long term relationship (funny how when it’s smooth and natural suddenly you realize you’re a year in and where has the time gone?) did it fully dawn on me that this was a real incompatibility.
    But, you’re probably right, Joe – I’m just a hurtful, belittling crazy lady.

88. Saint Stephen 88

    Being a pro-marriage, family values guy myself, I’m a little surprised that i share Joe’s sentiments.
    First, I’d say that the OP is emotionally manipulating her boyfriend. Acc to her letter she knew that this guy was anti marriage upfront, yet she still went ahead to enter into a relationship with him and after making him fall in love with her she starts pushing his buttons with a marriage agenda. And what’s worse? She wants to start issuing ultimatums and she’s seeking validation from a pro-marriage dating coach to do that.
    EMK, you know I’ve mostly agreed with you especially when it has to do with marriage and nuclear families, but to be honest, I don’t see this particular case having a happy ending. Just as you’ve advised her, her boyfriend might also have a few friends who advises him, and along the line certain things may happen that will further reinforce his anti-marriage stance. 

89. AllenB 89

    @Saint Stephen

    The OP said in her letter that when the relationship began she did not know that getting married would be important to her.
    
    
    I can honestly say I didn’t realize at that point that it mattered to me.

    
    She can change her mind, and when that happened an incompatibility developed.  She is not manipulating. She is communicating this need to her partner and telling him that the relationship, which takes two people to be satisfied, will fail.  She is not happy about this prospect. This is not an ultimatum any more than saying “if you were to take up robbing banks for a living, I would not be comfortable being in a close relationship with you.”

    Yes, she changed and it could mean the end of the relationship if he can’t change himself. That is said, and maybe it is even unfair, but that is how people are. They don’t always know everything about themselves at every moment, and they certainly don’t know how they might change over time. We have incomplete control over what we want in life and how that changes.

    (Nor did she make him fall in love with her.  That was something he did.)
     

90. Saint Stephen 90

    @AllenB
    The OP said:
    
    See, ever since we started dating – even before we started dating and knew each other through friends – I knew this guy didn’t believe in marriage.
    I believe if she had him told in the early phase of their relationship that marriage meant much to her – he would have shown her the door. Issues like marriage which involves two responsible matured individuals isn’t something you change your mind on a whim. Frankly, if i were to be her boyfriend, I would doubt her stability in other facets of life if she could be this fickle when it comes to paramount issues like marriage.

    I said that the OP is manipulating her boyfriend because she knows that whenever someone is in love, they will do whatever it takes to keep their SO around – even if it’s to their detriment. The OP waited that (1 and half years) long until she knew that her boyfriend was in love with her before she starts becoming sure that she wanted marriage.

    A similar analogy, Imagine if a girl told me that she was a virgin and she would never indulge in premarital sex and i concurred to her terms prior to the relationship only to change my mind after one year and six months – when she must have become fully emotionally invested in me – and start pressurizing her to put out/give in or I take a walk, and i can only do this because i know that at this point it will be virtually impossible for her to say no! Wouldn’t you see it as an emotional manipulation/blackmail? Cos that’s exactly what our OP is doing to her dear boyfriend.

91. Ruby 91

    Katie knew her boyfriend didn’t believe in marriage when she first started dating him, but also didn’t think that was an issue for her in the beginning either. Then she fell in love and started thinking about having kids. Marriage started to become important to her. She doesn’t want to have a family without the benefit of marriage. What in the world is wrong with that? How is that manipulative?

    She didn’t force him to fall in love with her, but it happened naturally, just as her desire for marriage evolved over time. It didn’t happen “on a whim.” She’s in her late twenties, at an age when many people start to think about settling down. It would be manipulative if Katie planned the whole thing, but she didn’t. 

    It’s never impossible for anyone to end a relationship over something they believe in strongly enough. Difficult, maybe, but not impossible. 

92. nathan 92

    I don’t really buy the manipulation argument either. Stephen’s point about the fact that people in love will do what they can to keep the other person around makes some sense, however it strike me that the OP’s needs changed during their relationship, and now she’s trying to act upon those needs. I don’t see anything wrong with that. The boyfriend has to be responsible for his decisions as well. He needs to consider if he’s just trying to keep her around or not. I do still believe that the OP needs to be willing to have some deep conversations with him without trying to push an agenda. However, I don’t think she is being manipulative here at this point.

93. Lara 93

    I see Joe’s point. He hasn’t changed, she has. And so she needs to act on her needs and respect his, without making him wrong. She would have to be brave and responsible and break up with him respectfully, without making him wrong or asking him to change. Because all the time that she hangs around with him, biding her time, he could be out creating a relationship with a woman who wants all that he wants, but who doesn’t want to get married either.

    No, Katie–it may not be crazy, but it isn’t responsible or wise to continue a relationship after you’ve changed the terms of the agreement, thinking that maybe the other person will make the fundamental personality adjustment that you seem to think is possible.

94. Joe 94

    EMK@86: He’s now doing the same thing that she’s doing. He went into it with one understanding, she changed the understanding, and now he’s maintaining the status quo while he considers his options. As Stephen points out, he’s probably got lots of people on his side telling him what he wants to hear, just like you’re telling her what she wants to hear. If he’s “anti-marriage,” he probably has lots of support for that point of view.

    But just curious–did your wife issue an ultimatum to get you to marry her?

95. Diane 95

    Times are changing, and as not being married becomes a respected life choice, because more people are choosing it, these types of discussions will pop up more and more. But they’ll be different, I predict. They’ll be more like the conversations about marrying a person of a different faith. And the answers will be much clearer.

    Look at how ridiculous the conversation on this thread sounds if you swap marriage/no marriage with Catholicism/Judaism:

    “I’ve been dating a Jewish guy and I’m Catholic. After two years of being together I was thinking about it and decided that I wanted to raise my future kids Catholic. He doesn’t believe in Catholicism and refuses to convert. I told him that I wouldn’t marry him if he didn’t convert. He was hurt and said he’d convert later, when the kids are born. But what if he doesn’t? How long should I wait for him to covert?”

    And then the response: “Don’t worry–he’ll come around. He’ll convert because he loves you. He just has to get over his anti-Catholic position, the result of being traumatized by Catholics. But everyone knows that Catholicism is better than Judaism, so…just wait, honey. He’ll come around.”

    If you understand his position as a world view and a statement of intention you’ll see that there is no hope here if there is respect.

96. Evan Marc Katz 96

    @Diane – you seemed to have missed the part where he volunteered to convert to Judaism if they had kids. That’s the difference between why she should stay vs. why she should go. Successful couples compromise to preserve their union. If they can’t compromise, it falls apart. Since it sounds like he’d be willing to marry her if they had kids, I told her to take him at his word. If he doesn’t, she respects his opinion and moves on. What’s so hard to accept about that?

97. Diane 97

    The hard-to-accept part: That his conversion would be real. In my example above the pressure would come from a certain anti-Semitic POV, that being Catholic is just better because “everybody” does it this way. That’s why I cast the disagreement as being over something that is a heartfelt belief about how someone wants to live his life. In both my example and the OP situation, the predominant culture is pressuring the guy to go against his stated preference for how he wants to live his life. You seem to be trivializing this aspect of his position, as if being married, or converting to Catholicism, is just a mere “compromise” that one person has to make in order to have a relationship.

    If that’s so, why shouldn’t the compromise go the other way? Why don’t you advise her that if everything else is in place, what difference does the wedding make?

    As more people support nontraditional ways of doing relationship, he’ll find a lot of people to support him, even if the current GF doesn’t.  

98. Evan Marc Katz 98

    @Diane – whether you want to believe this or not, MOST people eventually get married. Doesn’t mean they stay together forever. But as far as marriage being an eventual option for most people: the percentage of people who have ever been married by the age of 55: Both males and females: 95%

    So as much as there are certainly nontraditional ways of having relationships, marriage is still, by far, the most common one.

    And finding an educated woman who is willing to have a child with a man who won’t marry her…well, let’s say there aren’t all that many of those out there. If you want to prove otherwise, find me a statistic of college-educated women over the age of 30 who choose to have children out of wedlock (not counting sperm-donors). I’m guessing it’s less than 5% of all relationships, which means that the OP’s boyfriend would have to search far and wide for a woman who wants to have kids without having a husband.

    You’re entitled to your opinion about whether marriage and kids work for you, but, as of now, the statistics are still on my side.

99. Pearl 99

    I disagree with Evan on this. Not all guys marry the woman who is patient enough. Some guys would choose to stay for many years with a woman they love, but wouldnt want to marry. Perhaps it is unintentional and they think they are not ready for marriage, while they are just not ready to marry that particular woman. I waited for 4 years for my boyfriend, but after we broke up, he married someone else within 3 months. I was in Katie’s position, I was 28 when I started relationship, I waited till 32 which was a big mistake. While being single at 32 is not that bad, dating pool shrinks considerably compared to 29. It is also not easy to have a good relationship when you strongly wish to get married and you are risking the chance of getting married by staying with your boyfriend. Slowly resentment will keep in. How long you can love at the cost of your dream? Finally when relationship breaks, it will be due to other issues, but the root cause of those issues could be the frustration of not getting married. It all depends on how strong the desire for marriage is. It is fine if you dont wish marriage. But some people really, really want to get married. Whats wrong with it ? If you dont make a stand for your dreams, who else will do it ? If you strongly wish to get married, no man or woman is worth risking that dream. Unless Katie can choose to stay with her boyfriend accepting the possibility of never getting married , she should move on.

100. Lara 100

     Pearl@99: That’s usually the stance that family therapists take regarding this issue. If you want a particular form of relationship it’s up to you to go out and get it, it isn’t up to someone else to give it it you because you want it. And if someone has been very clear about wanting/not wanting a particular form of relationship, that someone usually doesn’t change. Or if he/she does, not on your timetable. Therapists might think that a woman who hangs on regardless of her boyfriend’s stated desire not to marry has control issues that need addressing.  

101. Lara 101

     Oh sorry for the double post–meant to respond to EMK’s stats. According the Cherlin book I mentioned earlier, Americans do have a higher rate of marriage than most countries. They also have a higher rate of divorce. (Which is why he calls the book “The Marriage-Go-Round.”) So, the high marriage rate isn’t the whole story.  

     Another thing to note: Any data that is discussing people married by age 55 are talking about people who were born in the 1950s at the latest–another era. We don’t know how lifetime marriage rates are going to play out for people born after the social changes (high divorce rates) of the 1970s since those folks are not 55 yet (which I guess is the magic cutoff age for first marriages). We’ll have to wait until 2025 or so to see how the post-1950s social changes will affect marriage rates (and thus the marriage prospects of the currently unhitched).

     You might give that book a read, since you seem to like this type of inquiry. Don’t think you’ll find anything in there too controversial or upsetting.

102. Lily 102

     Let’s cut to the chase here. Take it from someone who spent 8 years with a man I loved, who refused to move in together and share a home, but who told me we would get engaged when his daughter graduated from high school, but broke up with me instead: when a man and a woman are in a serious, committed, long term relationship but he is not proposing after a few years, he is just not that into her. Period. I found out the hard way, got my heart broken, but learned a lesson. If the man and woman don’t agree on something as important as marriage, or any other commitment-based issue, pay attention. The relationship is flawed and will end badly with someone getting very, very hurt.

103. Joe 103

     Really, by 2 years with someone you should know whether or not you want to marry him or her.  There can be circumstances where you can’t just get engaged right away (finishing a degree, employment issues, etc.), but barring those, if you’re with someone longer than 2 years, and you don’t know you want to get married, you don’t want to get married.

104. Tia 104

     they seem to care about each other and etc. but there is something hanging over the relationship, she wants to get married and settle down and he doesn’t believe in it, but  at the end of the day the answer is simple, she will have to move on unless he is able to make marriage an option.

105. jessica 105

     Two options here…
     Either A he is far more afraid of real, long lasting commitment to one person than “Marriage” and hides behind the title to avoid his fears… and never give you what you need.
     Or
     B He clearly knows he wants a monogamous relationship with one woman for the rest of his life (or at least he hopes) whom he can build a united life with and keep a partnership healthy no matter what…
     That is your simple answer.  The majority of men who say they don’t believe in marriage, really don’t believe (or think they are capable of committing to) the RIGHT ideals of marriage. These ideals are, KNOWING you only want one woman in your life, for the rest of your life (hopefully), knowing you want to be part of a team, a partnership which lasts beyond obstacles, clearly stating this without doubt, and acting like a “husband” in every way that his partner needs…  The minority, really think marriage in itself is insignificant to two people’s commitment to one another and believes they can do the above without the piece of paper. 
     How do you decipher?  Simple.  You know deep down which of these you have. He either fulfills your needs in every way (except the issue of actually getting hitched) or his behavior is not enough and therefore he is far more afraid of commitment than of marriage.

106. Lea 106

     This is the best article/advice I have read on this subject. As someone who was pining to get engaged and dropped the bomb too soon before my bf was ready, its been a really tough/sad few months trying to stay together knowing the relationship isnt where I want it to be. I wish I had never brought it up with him, and had had patience and waited until he did first. Because now our relationship is strained and depressing when it used to be so wonderful. Girls, a cautionary tale – unless you know for sure that he wants it too, bite your lip when you start feeling the urge to get married. The consequence of trying to just be a girlfriend again, when you know and he knows that you are dying inside to be a wife, really hurts.  

107. marymary 107

     Lea
     if a man or a woman’s way of dealing with conflict  is to give you the cold shoulder then you don’t want them anyway. If your way of dealing with your needs and wants is to pretend you don’t have them and then to punish yourself for making a mistake, that’s your issue to address.
     your relationship was not that wonderful if this disagreement can derail it. I don’t actually believe in wonderful or happy ever after or bliss. It’s work and compromise, but of a rewarding kind, not the dubious situation you have going on there.
     men rule the world still, they fight wars, they perform surgery, they work, cook, pay bills, get degrees, kill animals. They understand that most people get married. if he behaves like the idea is completely alien and an affront then , maybe, he just … doesn’t want to marry you. He is a man, not a baby.
     even if you were silly enough to mention it in the first month of dating a more promising response would be, “I like you and marriage is something I see In my future but let’senjoy what we have for now. We still don’t know each other that well.” 
     Women constantly bemoan that they did or that to turn mr wonderful into a frog. He’s not that wonderful, no man or woman is. and none of us, whether a pua or the most men love bitches rules playing woman, has that much power to change another human being. Who wants that responsibility anyway? No thanks. I can’t be bothered to expend the time and energy on manipulation. I’d rather meet a good guy who is ready for a good relationship than be cajoling mr reluctant.

108. Fusee 108

     The letter writer is/was in an interesting situation given the fact that she entered a relationship accepting that her boyfriend was not open to the idea of marriage (how honest and mature of him to have stated his opinion early on) and changed her mind later on as the relationship developed. Compromizing of that question is going to be a must in their situation.
      
     However I am concerned when I hear of such scenarios. Simply suggesting to wait, assuming he will eventually get there is pretty risky to me. So many people are simply not ready for a life-long commitment despite their “perfect partner behavior” and their babbling about the future, and often will not become ready within their ongoing relationship. It’s either a matter of their partner not being the one, or a need for much more maturing, which usually happens between relationships. Proposing to wait for marriage until the time comes to have kids, or until an older kid graduates, or until getting a new job, or until X happens = excuses to delay taking ones responsabilities. Which does not have to be getting married right at this second, but must certainly involve assessing goals and compatibility and exploring the potential of the relationship.
      
     I’m encouraging women who desire to build a solid, happy, long-lasting marriage to certainly make sure early on that their prospect is open to progressing towards marriage as a general life goal for themselves, but to focus the early dating stage in getting to know him in depth and making sure that he will be a solid husband. What is the point of obsessing about marriage when you are not even sure that you are both truly compatible in your values and life goals?
      
     Personally marriage is important to me, as well as the willingness to progress purposefully towards that goal. But most important is the quality of the person I will marry because I’m not interested in rushing into a doomed marriage. I want to build a solid, healthy, and happy one and would opt out of the relationship at the first sign of character defects incompatible with that goal. Since the possibility of marriage as well as following a reasonnable timeline were deal-breakers to me, I made sure that he had the same ultimate goal for his life and was ready to get there sooner rather than later if we were to work it out together. Once that was figured out and we were truly loving and trusting each other, we focused on carefully assessing our compatibility of values, lifestyle, goals, etc. It is crucial to make sure that we saw eye-to-eye or were able to make healthy compromises on the question of where to live, children, career and money management, spirituality, etc. Then and only then does it make sense to discuss marriage in more depth.
      
     It’s okay to desire marriage, but make sure you are both able to be exceptional spouses to one another. This is not a given. Few people have the necessary character qualities and relationship skills, and few relationships have the potential to progress into that direction.

109. Cecily 109

     Quick question.. Would he want to marry someone who is so quick to move on? I know I wouldn’t. 

110. starthrower68 110

     @ Cecily,
     How much longer should she wait?  The BF is pretty clear he does not believe in marriage.  There is no way, as it currently stands (assuming there has been no update) that both people get what they want in this situation.  How much more time should she invest *hoping* he changes his mind?  There is a phrase that says “hope deferred makes the heart sick”.

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