How You Can Get Everything Wrong and Still Find The Man of Your Dreams
Pages: 1 2
Karin is tall, thin and blonde. She’s a former dancer who makes a good living as a doctor. She’s a patron of the arts, an animal lover, and has a quick wit.
Karin is also 42, never married, and desperately wants children.
I took her on as a Commitment Course client because she’s highly motivated.
Yet the second we started working together, Karin began to dictate how our coaching would go – and thus gave me a small glimpse of why she’s single at 42.
“I’m not going to date online. Only weirdos who do that. What if someone sees me? I’d be too embarrassed. The kind of men I’m looking for don’t date online.”
“I think you tell women to settle. I’m not going to settle. I haven’t waited this long to find love only to be with a man who is beneath my standards.”
And so on. And so forth.
I reminded Karin that 50 million people have tried online dating. I reminded her that if a man sees her online, he can’t judge her because he’s dating online as well.
The first three weeks of coaching Karin, we literally didn’t do any coaching.
All I did was cajole her into putting her profile on Match.com so we could actually have, you know, DATES to discuss during the rest of her coaching.
I reminded Karin that 50 million people have tried online dating.
I reminded her that if a man sees her online, he can’t judge her because he’s dating online as well.
I reminded her that my wife, my mom, my sister, my sister’s husband, my wife’s best friend, my wife’s best friend’s husband and pretty much every other single person I know has tried it. And we’re not all losers.
Finally, Karin got her professional photos and professional profile up on Match.
It was like magic. Even though Karin was in a highly unpopular demographic (42 and looking to have babies) she still got tons of attention online. Scores of men. Attractive men. Successful men. Age-appropriate men.
Quickly, Karin realized that her fears were considerably overstated.
Within weeks, Karin found herself dating a good guy named Gary. They’d gone out 3 or 4 times and he always followed up immediately to see her again. Moreover, he was enthusiastic, cute, successful and very much interested in Karin as a girlfriend.
Naturally, Karin started second-guessing her own interest him.
“He’s too nice,” she said. “He always asks for my opinion on what to do on dates. Why is he so eager to please?”
Didn’t you complain that in your last passionate love affair, you never knew where you stood with the guy? That he wasn’t considerate enough?
“Yes, but—How about the fact that Gary is a teacher who drives a Toyota? How can he support me? What are my Mercedes-driving friends going to think?”
You’re a doctor; he doesn’t have to support you. And who cares what your friends think as long as you’re happy in your relationship?
“Yeah, well, the other day, in the museum, he made a joke about a modernist sculpture. I thought it was so classless of him to do that when an artist poured his heart and soul into creating it.”
He made a joke about a piece of art? And you want to break up with him for it?
“He apologized to me the next day because he saw how it upset me, but all I could think was: why did you make that dumb joke in the first place?”
Because it was funny? Because it was no big deal? Because everyone makes jokes about modern art? Either way, Karin, the fact that he apologized to you when he’s done nothing wrong means that you’re dating a saint. I wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss him.
After a half-hour of back and forth, Karin made her decision.
She was dumping Gary.
He was too safe.
He was too nice.
He wasn’t able to support her financially.
And if this wasn’t enough, Karin simply didn’t feel what she was supposed to feel.
Fair enough.
I told Karin that I didn’t care about Gary, per se, but that if she were going to achieve her goal of finding love, she should start giving men like Gary a closer look.
She’d spent 42 years chasing exciting, charismatic, unpredictable, wildly attractive men…and here she was with a dating coach trying to figure out where she went wrong.
“THIS is where you’ve gone wrong”, I told her. “THIS is your chance to correct it.”
But Karin’s mind was made up.
She broke it off with Gary and they agreed to “remain friends”.
She put herself back on Match.com and prepared herself for the flood of responses that she got in her first month online.
Two weeks later, Karin was crying to me on the phone.
 |
Why He Disappeared is the smart, strong, successful woman's guide to understanding men. If you want to learn how men think, and rediscover how to have meaningful relationships - all from a man's point of view - click here to learn Why He Disappeared. |
Do You Want to Attract the Partner of Your Dreams?
If so, sign up for my free dating and relationship newsletter and receive my free eBook, The 5 Massive Mistakes You're Making In Your Love Life - And How to Turn Them Around Instantly. Simple and effective advice to jumpstart your love life.
87 Comments »Filed Under Chemistry, Dating, Letting Go, Marriage, Online Dating, Relationships
Ellen 1
Cool. Truly impressed she made the leap. So many don’t.
I’ve met men who I know won’t commit til they are pushed against the wall either by age, circumstance (feeling vulnerable), or acute loneliness finally sets in.
You wrote: “I spend a lot of time writing about sad things: men who lie, men who cheat, men who won’t commit, etc. This blog doesn’t change the fact that these men are still out there.”
Recently, after looking for a real relationship 1.5 yrs., I met a man who, right out of the gate, treated me like his girlfriend, did everything right, bent over backwards. Took down his profile after the second date. It floored me. It felt so nice. I was beginning to think these men didn’t exist anymore.
But my point is I’ve met a lot of men the past few years who were some version of the above. Not bad men, most of them, though two were wolves in sheep’s clothing, but men who were supremely jaded, cynical imo. I think it’s cynicism, mostly unfounded, that keeps a lot of men from truly pursuing/exploring a woman, committing these days.
The media is SO full of anti-marriage stats, stories, propaganda that it seems no one is willing to commit unless taken hostage emotionally, hijacked so to speak.
I have felt cynical myself though I’ve been married twice! I love being single, but finally recognized given my sun sign and Myers Briggs personality type I prefer being in relationships, am happier in a good one (though I LOVE my alone time). It’s been quite a journey and though in my late fifties am STILL learning new things about myself.
Like Karin I finally went for the “super nice guy” in my early thirties (first husband was a narcissist), but re-married because I just really wanted kids. My ex made me feel safe, but what he failed to do was fully feed me emotionally. If I had been reading Evan back then I would have realized he was the proverbial “good guy” but still not ideal for me ’cause of the latter (didn’t validate me enough). In short I would have waited a bit and found the right guy for me emotionally.
It wasn’t til my fifties that I finally figured out the right guy for me emotionally. I’ve already told my latest boyfriend what I need emotionally to feel happy. Hopefully he’ll listen. God, I hope so.
Evan you ARE changing lives.
Spiral 2
Evan, congrats on your success with this woman and breaking through her psychological barriers to love. It must have felt amazing to receive that letter
However, my cynical side says, “Ooh big deal! The tall, thin, blonde, beautiful lady-doctor found someone who wanted to marry her. Surprise surprise. How about the short, fat, mixed race, divorced secretary with 3 kids? Can you find her someone to marry?”
Christie Hartman 3
Okay, this one really got to me, Evan. What a GREAT story! I practically got tears in my eyes too!
This is a great example of what it’s like to really break through and find love. It’s also a good taste of what it’s like to be a dating expert, to feel the frustration of watching clients resist change, and then feel the happiness that comes when (if) they do. Excellent work, Evan!
Angie 4
Hi Evan,
I read “Marry Him”, Lori Gottlieb’s book that you were featured in, and thought a stand-out fact was that the average happily married person could list 20 “flaws” with their spouse. The happily married ones just choose to not make a big deal out of those flaws, while the picky choose to focus on them, and think they can find someone without these “flaws”.
(“Flaws” obviously does not mean true negatives such as abusive or mean-spirited or controlling. It means… makes jokes about art, and drives a Toyota).
Congrats to Karin for having her eyes opened, and well done Evan!!!
Barry 5
Evan I LOVED this post. I’ve also had clients who started off resistant to most everything I suggested, and who took time to allow themselves permission to change their mindset and approach. Kudos to YOU for holding a *nonjudgemental* space with your client long enough for her to pen her mind, overcome her fears and commit to the actions. I find most to the excuses I hear are rationalizations coming from a deeper fear. Emotionally they aren;t sure they are ready to be THAT close, THAT intimate, THAT happy with a man. As they feel more deserving and ready, the defensive walls (and resistance) go away.
But it takes a HELL of a great coach to hold firm in the message, but not push too hard, to support the client to getting there. What a huge inspiration for you as a coach and I’m so happy for Karin!
Ellen hits it on the head that she had to be ready to allow her life to change. Coaches like Evan (who is masterful at this stage) and my humble self are just facilitators once you are ready for that change.
Often, the person wants to change deep down, but their fear makes them show us a different face. I always try to remember that even if a client is resisting, they came to me for a *reason* and that deeper purpose is what I must serve.
You do God’s work, Evan. Thanks for lifting our spirit today. I know this event will help inspire you to go touch many more lives.
Elizabeth 6
I have read many of these posts, and never replied but this one touched me personally. I am a divorced woman of hispanic origin, and my family is opposed to online dating. It is just something thought of as “dangerous” and “bad” in many countries in Latin America. Thankfully, I make my living in the online world, and can be called a mother thanks to technology, so I am more than willing to give it a shot. This coming weekend I am having my online profile reviewed by an expert, and will also participate on a teleclass on online dating. If one does not do anything, one cannot complain later on. If I fail, at least I know I tried.
Amy 7
I have tears in my eyes too! So happy for her and congrats Evan!!
Sandy 8
I’m in tears as well. I’m new to your blog but I bought the book and have been using it. My marriage fell apart a year ago and I still feel like it did because I comprised on too much early on. I’m still learning that balance. I met someone a few months ago. I’ve used your tips in Why he Disappeared and even the small self sabotages I’ve done haven’t made him disappear.
I agree with Gary you are doing God’s work. I’m sure for every email you get there are so many others out there who don’t email you. Thank you!
Ana 9
@Spiral I totally understand the last part about your cynical side! I feel your pain…Still very happy that Karin has found love and happiness.
amy 10
Karin, don’t read this. This is for Evan.
Come back in five years and see if they’re still married. Because Gary is a nebbish with a hot bod, and Karin’s starved for sex and affection. That’s her short-term need. But what she was really looking for is a manly man to be the father of her children, and Gary’s not a manly man. Gary is a teacher who drives a cheap car. That doesn’t just mean he’s super-accepting and not materialistic. It means a host of other things, too:
He’s likely to be earnest and hardworking but not, in the end, all that razor-sharp.
He’s likely to complain a lot without doing anything about it.
He’s likely to be good at taking orders and complaining about them.
Pretty soon, Karin’s going to notice that she’s spending a lot of money keeping Gary, and she’s not going to be too happy about it, particularly when she gets serious about having the child, and she applies the same kind of drive she did to her own career and getting married. That’s not what Gary’s about. Gary’s a guy who threw a casual profile up there on Match. And he’s going to be surprised to find out how very serious she actually is. Karin’s going to notice that in fact Gary’s not hella ambitious about much of anything at all. He’s just nice, accepting, supportive, and good with people. So if she wanted a wife, she just got one. But she didn’t want a wife, she wanted a husband.
Furthermore, if she manages to have this kid, her mode of living afterwards will drive Gary nuts. She’ll hire a nanny, and pay the nanny almost as much as Gary gets paid to be a teacher. Gary will think this is stupid, sends all the wrong messages, is demeaning, and is embarrassing in front of his colleagues, who can’t afford nannies and don’t love rich parents. He won’t think well of Karin for leaving the baby with the nanny, and he’ll start fussing about how they don’t need so much money. She’ll tell him that if it’s so important to him, he should take a leave from his job. And he won’t want to do this, because he takes the schoolteacher hierarchy seriously. He may do it anyway, in which case he’ll sit home with the baby and plot and stew about how to save this child from her mother’s materialism while feeling his career slip away.
The upside to this is that if she does manage to have a child, Gary will be a great divorced dad. Nurturing, loving, the whole deal. And he’ll still make out like a bandit, because she’ll be paying him child support.
I know a couple who’re totally screwed up but a great match for each other. Both ambitious as hell. She’s a doctor and a lawyer; he’s a lawyer and a businessman; she gave it all up to be a housewife, which is what she really wanted all along. Lots of beautiful kids. Big fancy house. He cheats on her left and right, he’s never home. She’s furious at him all the time. But dang if they don’t understand each other and want the same things. They’ve been married nearly a decade.
The values and sensibilities have to line up if it’s going to last. The question’s not just what do you want in a relationship; it’s what do you want from life.
Susan 11
This is totally fake.
Evan Marc Katz 12
No, Susan. You’re just paranoid and cynical.
Susan 13
Thanks so much for the personal insult. I’m not sure how you jumped to the conclusion of paranoia:
Exhibiting or characterized by extreme and irrational fear or distrust of others
I just don’t believe anything about that story.
Cynical?
bitterly or sneeringly distrustful, contemptuous, or pessimistic.
because the story seems artificially emblellished?
Sounds more like a chick flick plot. That’s why women like going to those things. They’re fantasy.
Evan Marc Katz 14
Yeah, except for the part where everything I wrote is true. So if you’re disbelieving something that’s true, what does that make you?
Susan 15
a disbeliever
Evan Marc Katz 16
A moron. What do you want? Her home address? Get out of my blog. You’re bringing me down.
When you can’t believe someone who tells the truth, there’s not much else I can do for you.
mellie charnalia 17
@spiral, I hear you. Would the Gary’s of the world go for us? I’m trying to gather the money together to hire evan as a coach. Because I’m really about to just give up. No matter how much I try to follow his advice, his book, his products, etc…it just aint working for me. And the energy I use in trying to maintain hope is actually exhausting me. Maybe one-on-one coaching is the way to go, particularly for us non blonde rich lady doctor types
.
Nadia 18
Evan, thanks for the laugh (#16). Amy (#10), I have a healthy cynical side, and in fact, found myself nodding along with Spiral (#2), but I gotta say, wow! That’s some deep cynicism. Will Karin and Gary live happily ever after? Probably not. But there’s no reason why they don’t stand just as good a shot as any, especially now that Karin is focused on good she feels with Gary instead of her previous superficial laundry list.
sandra 19
Susan – Calling someone (Evan) a liar is very impolite.
Evan, you don’t have to go to every fight your’re invited to.
But, I laughed out loud at your sarcasm and your clear directive to Susan “Get out of my blog.” Wish I could be so blunt. It’s a gift.
amy 20
That’s the thing, Nadia. Her list wasn’t superficial. It was actually what she wanted.
She wanted an alpha male, and she let herself be convinced that beta would keep her bed warm just fine. The Tesla and giant salary aren’t actually jokes. So she’s cool for now, but it’s not gonna last, and unfortunately you really start seeing those values clashes erupt only after a child is born. That’s a tragedy, and that’s why you don’t want to marry someone who doesn’t want what you want in life, and doesn’t broadly agree with you about what’s kosher in how one gets it.
Money is not a superficial thing to go after. I’m about Karin’s age, and you know what? I’m done with men who don’t pick up the check, who don’t buy serious presents. Men are organized all around getting money, and I don’t date children. I don’t share her interest in flash, but that’s not superficial either. Flash is about power. Money and power, two serious things that’ll stand you in good stead.
If you want to date Jesus, that’s up to you. But it’s not what Karin wanted. I’m glad she’s getting laid and hope she keeps her money separate, also that she’s not in a community property state.
SalsaQ 21
@amy #10
How does being a teacher mean you aren’t smart or witty? I am not a teacher, but I know some very intelligent people who became teachers because they are dedicated to the cause. I also know some idiot teachers. How does being content with living your dream job and living comfortably, if not richly, mean you are a ‘nebbish’ and a passive-aggressive whiner?
Some people actually do care more about what they do and how they help people than how much they are paid.
You sure extrapolate a lot from a third hand written list of a few facts about a person. Impressive creativity.
He cheats on her left and right, he’s never home. She’s furious at him all the time. But dang if they don’t understand each other and want the same things. They’ve been married nearly a decade.
She throws things at him. She yells and swears at him in front of the kids. Sometimes she cries in front of them after getting off the phone with him when he said he will be ‘working’ late again. The kids are insecure and the older one has been referred into therapy after drawing a picture of mommy shooting daddy. The second child will try start sneaking liquor when she is 7 because it gives her some peace and solace from the screaming. By 12 she will be trying pot, and will be on heroin by 16 to escape Mom and Dad. (How happy are their children? You did not say.)
I hope they divorce soon. They and their children will be happier and live longer once they defuse their toxic household.
Leesa 22
evan, you and susan seriously cracked me up and i don’t laugh out loud very often, so thanks for that. i think that people who can’t truely love focus on people’s bad points. it’s like, unless the other person is absolutely perfect, they can’t tolerate them past the short term. what’s amazing is that nice guy gary would even bother with somebody like karin in the first place (i can’t imagine she would have been so much fun to hang out with - she was being pretty judgemental). and what’s even more amazing is that karin would change her attitude at a soul level in a relatively short time (that’s what i’m interpreting happened from what she wrote). i just want to find a nice guy who is honest and kind. i don’t care what kind of car he drives or what his job is. i don’t even care if he’s fat and that’s really saying something for me. i’m just glad that i no longer feel attracted to these charismatic, self-centered, unavailable ass wipes. it’s really a cruel trick of nature that we could be possibly attracted to these types of people in the first place.
Ruby 23
Honestly, I have no idea if this story is true or not. I do feel like I’ve heard certain elements of it before. The teacher who drives a Toyota (how plebian!), the upset because her date made fun of modern art, his eagerness to please. It all sounds a bit cliched. But then I read a response like Amy’s (#12), which is so cynical, so snobbish, so entitled, that I would much rather believe Karin’s story, true or not. Because Karin, initially, is just as insufferable as Amy, but at least she decides she’d rather have love than hang on to her b.s. sense of superiority. And the Karins of the world – even despite their supposedly “highly unpopular demographic” - still have it much easier than the Spirals.
Evan Marc Katz 24
I’m far from perfect, but I have no tolerance for being publicly tarnished when I’ve done nothing wrong. I’ve been giving dating advice for 9 years. 1.2 million people read this blog in 2011. I’ve had over ten thousand people who’ve paid for my products and services. Believe me, I never have any need to make up a thing for my blogs and newsletters. And if you believe I do, I simply feel bad for you. Life must be exhausting: questioning the moon landing, doubting Obama’s birth certificate, and worrying about whether Google is tracking your every action.
As for you, Amy: tsk, tsk. Without meeting Gary or Karin, you already know both of them and know how their story’s going to end. Because a man can only be Steve Jobs or Jesus Christ, am I right? I will go out on a limb and suggest that Karin is currently in a happier relationship than you are, so perhaps you could stand to learn from her experience instead of criticizing it.
Begone, cynics. You’re not wanted here.
This is a place for people who believe in love and can see the goodness in men instead of believing that no one is happy and everyone is deluding themselves.
zann 25
@ Amy: Wow. Just wow. Where’d you get your crystal ball? Because, dang, I’m sure the rest of us would like one of our own.
Or maybe not.
Note to self: If I ever get as cynical, negative and smugly bitter as Amy, consider the possibility that the rest of humankind might be better served if I just kept that to myself. Or at least limit it to a few paragraphs, as opposed to a novella.
Amy, while it’s hard to decide which one of your arrogant predictions is most offensive, I’d put this one right near the top: “Gary is a teacher and drives a cheap car.”
You know, I had no idea that driving a Toyota meant a guy is — although earnest and hardworking — but not the sharpest tool in the shed. Not to mention he’s most likely “nice, accepting, supporting and good with people.” And we all know THOSE are some pretty obvious red flags.
Poor Karin. Here she thought she was all happy, when really she’s just stuck with ol’ Gary Manly-Manless. Oh sigh.
sally 26
Wow, I guess I’m kind of shocked by these comments!! I thought we were grown ups trying to better ourselves and learn from people who wanted to help us. Ladies…!!!! STOP IT!!! I’m embarrassed, we subsrcibe for a reason (because we haven’t been able to achieve our relationship goals on our own) , plse leave it at that and understand someone is trying to help us regardless of whether we agree or not! Evan…don’t get into it, that’s not why the majority of us subscribe, your advice is appreciated.
Zaq 27
I don’t understand why you girls are having a problem with this. Is it because one of the sisters had to compromise to find love, and you are unwilling to do so ?
I actually know a kindergarten teacher with absolutely no ambition that is about to marry an ambitious professional woman.
He is handsome, talented, kind. She is nothing to write home about in the looks dept.
“She wants someone ambitious” my female friend says.
“But he’s handsome !” I say
There is a look of incredulity on her face
Men and women are SO different
Mark 28
@Amy – WOW, Are you still single? I would hookup w/you in a Heartbeat!
I almost slit my wrists just reading your post, that has got to be the most negative outlook on life/relationships I have ever read
AnnieC 29
ah zaq, men and women aren’t as different as we think(though I agree we are).
I wanted for the longest time, a man who was not ambitious because I had an absentee father(due to work). I didn’t want my kids to have that. Till I got one. Then I wanted a man who was ambitious, but misunderstood again. Got him, wasn’t so happy.
Then I realized it was more a matter of how ambitious a person was about life and their passions and wether our life goals were similar. They would understand money and responsibility was important but not everything.
Amy’s post @ #10, was probably more accurate than people probably realize. Just from reading evan’s post, it looks like a co-dependant relationship in the making. A woman that obsessed with her own unrealistic demands, isn’t going to change quickly. And a man who tolerates it, won’t change quickly either.
It’s a wonderful thing to find love, and I do wish the best for them. I would like to see the results 10 years down the track though. That isn’t always cynicism. It’s reading the red flags and knowing what they represent.
Zaq 30
@AnnieC
Yes there are potential problems, not least of which is how the guy is going to be able to fit in with her rich cultured friends.
I can’t help but think an older man with the same lifestyle would have been a far better fit.
Karl R 31
amy said: (#20)
“[Karin's] list wasn’t superficial. It was actually what she wanted.
She wanted an alpha male, and she let herself be convinced that beta would keep her bed warm just fine.”
Do you really think Karin would be happy with an alpha male? It may seem attractive at a distance, but I wouldn’t want that kind of dynamic in my close relationships.
My fiancée’s dog has dominance issues. I have to be the alpha male with him, or his behavior becomes unmanageable. That means we do things my way, no exceptions. As long as he does what I want, we get along great. If he challenges my authority, we have a fight, and he loses. In order to be the alpha, I can’t let the challenge pass.
Since he’s a dog, he accepts this dynamic. It provides a stability and structure to his life that works well for dogs.
I would hate to have an intimate relationship based on an alpha/beta dynamic. I find it more harmonious and more fulfilling to have a partnership between equals.
However, I recognize that you (or Karin) may value a different dynamic in a relationship. It is possible to have a harmonious relationship with an alpha … as long as you’re willing to be the beta. If not, there’s going to be a fight … and if he accepts losing, then he’s not an alpha.
Zaq said: (#30)
“Yes there are potential problems, not least of which is how the guy is going to be able to fit in with her rich cultured friends.”
If Karin’s friends can’t be polite and gracious to Gary (just because he’s her husband), then perhaps Karin needs to find some classier friends.
One of my fiancée’s close friends has 12 cats. I’m allergic to cats. Furthermore, we have nothing in common. That’s fine. She’s a sweet lady, and we can be nice to each other. We don’t need to socialize more than that. They can do girls’-night-out without me.
My fiancée and I are a couple, not siamese twins. It’s not that hard to have her friends, my friends, and our friends.
amy 32
SalsaQ – Unfortunately most schoolteachers really aren’t all that bright. The ed colleges pull from the bottom 25% of college classes; the kids who can’t make it in biz and sci routinely switch to ed. You get a lot of genuinely nice people who’re willing to take orders from admins mired in politics and mandates, and who admire intellectual and artistic work but aren’t cut out for it themselves. They’re mostly very good people. Brighter than the 50th-percentile mark in your room full of random people, too. Totally hardworking and patient. But razor-sharp intellect? No, she’s kidding herself there. And boatrockers, no.
As for your fantasy about that couple: no, that’s not how that demographic does it. The children will go to excellent schools and develop eating disorders. One will get involved with booze or drugs or some equivalent and make a mint writing about it. The others will marry well.
KarlR – If Karin’s hung up on Teslas and fat incomes, then yes, she digs the dominant man. Her net came up empty and she went back to the nice fellow who gave her tea, sympathy, and hot sex. But that’s not what she was really after, and it’ll show through in a while. The girl wants her man dressed to impress.
Evan – there’s only so many stories. Sorry. A temporary marriage isn’t something to get excited about, esp. if there’s going to be a kid involved. But wait and see, maybe I’m wrong. Come back in 5 years and see how it’s going.
zann – Hey, I was married to a Toyota guy, and his car was nicer and newer than mine. The guy I almost married before him, also a Toyota. But the midlife Toyota means the guy’s never going to walk into anyone’s office and demand money. He’s not going to play the game of Take Everything You Can. I’m not interested in that, but Karin likes to see a man play that game. To her, it means he has self-confidence, self-respect, and she finds it sexy. Gary, he’ll take what the school board and union say he’ll get, and like it.
One thing that I notice happens with people who don’t care about money: they assume the people they like don’t care about it, either. That money happens accidentally. So I would lay odds that at some point, Gary will get very cavalier indeed with Karin’s money, and Karin will be offended as hell and pull him up short. Which will humiliate him, and he’ll wonder who exactly’s in charge, here.
Personally? I think Karin just wanted an unlikely set of things. She wanted her manly guy, she’s 42, and she wants at least one baby. At 42 and with moxie and brights, she’s attractive to established guys in their 50s. They don’t want any more kids, though. So then she has to decide: what’s more important, baby or husband? She’ll go with “baby”. Fine, maybe she’ll get one. But if she hasn’t done this carefully, it’s going to be very expensive. (I also hope she and Gary are on the same page when it comes to chromosomal defects.)
There is, of course, the possibility that Karin has no idea who the hell she is, or what she really wants, in which case Gary may be her lifesaver after all. But I’m thinking probably not.
One thing I think all y’all are missing is that Karin’s been fighting her way through a boys’ club for decades. She knows how to survive there, and she’s tough. I don’t doubt that it’s a temporary relief for her to be calling the shots easily here, and to get warmth instead of static or a knife in the back. In the end, though, the question is still “did she actually want a wife (but one who still has enough male ego to bristle at the idea of losing face at work)”, and my guess is the answer is “no, she wanted a husband.”
Still-Looking 33
Amy @ 20 -
You stated, “ Money is not a superficial thing to go after. I’m about Karin’s age, and you know what? I’m done with men who don’t pick up the check, who don’t buy serious presents. Men are organized all around getting money, and I don’t date children. I don’t share her interest in flash, but that’s not superficial either. Flash is about power. Money and power, two serious things that’ll stand you in good stead . . . and hope she keeps her money separate, also that she’s not in a community property state.”
Wow! How can I say this nicely?? …. I hope any man that takes you out keeps a firm grip on his credit cards and realizes that with some people, a prenuptial agreement is not an option. Your attitude regarding Gary (who will make out like a bandit) and your self-professed gold-digging standards are more than a little askew.
Banana 34
Love this story. I think Evan’s blog post about maximizers vs satisficers relates well. Karin may always be drawn to more flashy men, but she can choose to stay in a loving, fulfilling relationship. Being a maximizer in relationships left her single and looking for too long… She needed Evan’s advice to show her a different way to approach dating.
@amy. Being with a man who is wonderful, supportive , and relationship oriented is one of the happiest experiences of my life. Rejecting men becuase they weren’t successful enough or weren’t alpha types left me lonely and miserable. I have no doubts about my choice of partner.
james 35
Amy needs a hug. Things will be okay amy, I know you don’t think things will be okay. but they will be.
Brenda 36
Well, Evan, I have to say that I love Karin’s “a ha moments” and I love you too
As you know, you helped me in so many ways when I got back onto the dating scene at 50!
You coached me and helped me see past my values and my “list of wants” which were admittedly superficial – a younger man who could keep up with me and my two sons, now ages 12 and 14, someone intelligent and witty, a really masculine man who believed in love and who wanted marriage, and someone who would be wonderful partner in so many ways.
I had a lot of false starts…..the men who started out well and went poof for a variety of reasons, men who weren’t ready, men who wanted someone younger than me, men who went back to an old girlfriend….. and I just kept the faith. Kept believing that there was a man out there who like me believed strongly in love, marriage, and a great future. I kept putting one foot ahead of the other, and kept reading your blog, putting myself out there, meeting men on a few online dating websites and enjoying the process. Whether we had a future or not, I enjoyed learning more about any man I dated, even if it just involved one date. At times, it felt a bit like interviewing for a job, and there were months that I took myself off the dating market and just focused on healing from my divorce.
But voila! I met a wonderful man, who is 9 months younger than I am (who says God doesn’t have a sense of humor), who loves my sons and I hugely and he actually got down on his knees to propose to me at Christmas. We are marrying this October and I can honestly say I would not have given him a chance if I had kept my old so not-working-for-me-mindset and gone for the soul-shredding relationships with the big-wage-earner men who may have been flashy but were not the man who won my heart!
Evan, thanks for encouraging me along the way and for helping me see that the initial wants I had were the same old wants that had never worked for me and for showing me how to really enjoy the dating process.
Brenda 37
PS My superficial list of wants - i.e. the younger man etc – encompassed many more things that I did not list here – what I did want was the intelligence etc and many other attributes which are listed on the next three lines. (sorry, my brain is tired after a long week
Natasha 38
Evan, thank you for sharing this! It’s all too true that many, many stories fall under the sad category and it’s so uplifting to read a positive one. For all those who don’t believe that people can change their priorities, I have a very close friend that was “a Karin”, (and is a lawyer) who met “a Gary” (who is a teacher). She finally saw the light and gave him a chance. I’m going to be a bridesmaid in their wedding and I can’t wait to celebrate them starting their lives together.
If you do the work, things will change for you. Believe it.
Soul 39
Here is what I think: there is a lot of truth in what Amy is saying….
Here is what I feel: you never know in this life, and love/life is about growing and becoming a better person.
Karin’s former life may have been painful enough for her to recognize that what she once valued (alpha males, flash, money etc.) aren’t what she really wanted and valued DEEP INSIDE…. or…. Amy might be right that Karin was just too desperate and that her marriage will not run the distance….only time will tell actually. WE DO NOT KNOW…
PS: And as a matter of fact, Evan’s job is all the more difficult because what he is trying to do, in a sense, is to reconcile the “feeling” and the “thinking” perspectives…Love is about MAGIC, it is about that little sth that nobody can really explain, but that most people have felt or are able to imagine and/or fantasize about… And at the same time, there are a few “rules”, patterns, that EMK is trying to convey to his clients. But we do not know the end result of it all of course. Nobody knows…
However, I find that there is a lot of wisdom in EMK’s approach. I have myself followed his system’s core principles and it has literally changed my life. Actually, I am now deeply in love with the very same man that I found extremely boring and predictable in the first place….And although I did not feel any chemistry at first, he is by far my best sex experience ever! In fact we now live together and I can assure you that this man absolutely NOT boring, he is just a man who is reliable and I, foolish as I was before I started reading this blog, I just did not know how to measure integrity, so I wrongly assumed being reliable meant being boring! I am thankful that I followed EMK’s advice and paid attention to what really mattered…I let him do all the work and I just said yes!
In the end I do not find him boring at all! I find him fascinating and to my greatest pleasure, he takes more initiatives than any of my “wonderful” but spineless exes (I am definitely a beta feminine energy person who needs a reliable leader)…In 6 months my man has initiated trips to 5 different countries including dangerous ones (he is helping me plan my next career and sort out which countries Ill be focusing on), we have visited art galleries in different countries, he has taken me to great intellectual conferences, we go fishing in the deep ocean and live only on what we have fished for days, we have spent days without electricity in the wild… the guys is not boring at all, I was the one without the knowledge and wisdom to recognize a good man. It could be the same for Karin…I know that without EMK’s advice I would have let the most wonderful and generous guy go without even realizing my mistake! EMK’s advice has helped me really be in touch with who I am deep inside, and that could be the same for Karin in the end.
amy 40
Still-Looking – I wouldn’t get married without a pre-nup and a thumbs-up from the lawyer that the pre-nup would be meaningful in whatever state I was living in. I’ve already been in danger of getting wiped out once by a guy, wouldn’t risk it again. I’ve got a child to raise and a retirement to live through.
And I think you miss my point. A woman who’s looking to be treated well materially isn’t necessarily a golddigger. Maybe the majority aren’t. What she is saying is: “Hey. You’re not a kid. You make real money. If I mean something to you, show it. Not just in words and touch and hokey little things, which any kid can manage, but in a tangible way. And if you’re the man I think you are, you’ll want to do that.” A middle-aged woman with any self-confidence knows that money’s not a joke, and she knows what she’s worth. Does it mean she won’t offer to pick up the check, no. But it means he’d be ashamed to let her.
As for me, I’m done with broke men. Not because I’m looking for a sugar daddy, but because there’s almost always something seriously wrong with a broke middle-aged guy. Yes, sometimes there’s a real disaster, but I’ll tell you, if he’s a together and energetic person, he won’t stay down long. Otherwise — he lacks self-confidence, he lacks the ability to plan, he’s 47 and thinks he’s 27. He got divorced without thinking what it’d cost; he had kids without thinking about what they’d cost, or the possibility of divorce. He’s got serious psychological issues that hamper his ability to work, or to find work he enjoys. He’s drifting through life.
Apart from which, I’m just too old for kid stuff. Just like I’m too old to go traveling around sleeping on a bus. Short of a war, I’m done with crappy street food, bad cheap dates, panicky emails about the rent, junk jewelry, terrible apartments where you can hear the neighbors all night. There’s only one circumstance in which I’d say yes to a broke guy, and that’s if he was in maybe the top five for talent I’ve ever met in my field, and I’ve met a few Nobelists. If he was that talented and serious, and also sane and hot and we had a real meeting of minds going on, okay. But I still wouldn’t let him move in with me, because I don’t want to play Mom to a broke genius. Nor would I marry him and get my property mixed up with him legally.
In any case, I’m not here to judge whether Karin’s desires are right or wrong, virtuous or not. I’m saying that marrying someone who serves an immediate need, but doesn’t share your values or goals, is not a good idea. There are much worse things than being single. One of them is going through a divorce.
In fact, I’ll go further. Suppose Karin does manage to have a child with Gary, and three years later Gary can’t take it anymore. The doctor hours, Karin’s attitude towards money and career v. family time, the whole thing. And he files for divorce. Karin will not get custody of that child — the one she knocked herself out looking to have, then having in her 40s, which carries both physical and career risk — because Gary will have done more caregiving, and besides he has more free time. He can be there in the afternoons, and he’s got all summer off. So Karin will watch him move out and take the toddler with him…depending on where they live, she’ll give him a big ol chunk of what she’s worked to make…and then she’ll send him child support. If Gary’s still hot and employed, he’ll remarry, and then Karin’s child will grow up in another woman’s house. Where Karin sends checks. Karin, on the other hand, will probably not remarry.
So unless they stick together and she keeps him happy, if what she wanted most was a child, she was probably better off as an SMBC with a nanny or a grandparent living in her house.
Marrying just to be married — I don’t see any wisdom in it. And if you’re not looking ahead and asking, How will this go if things don’t go well…well, you’re likely to wind up with a mess, maybe a painful and expensive mess. Happy for a year isn’t worth ten years or more of pain, not in the prime of life. You have to look past dating, Evan, there’s a whole world on the other side of the marriage, and things matter there, even when the marriage goes wrong. Which it does a little over half the time.
K 41
Amy I wanted to 100% disagree with what you are saying. Instead I’m torn. I’m torn between what you are saying and what Evan advocates. Since the start of this year I have made it a goal to follow the things he advocates. I have dated the shorter more beta types. I feel like I’m getting there and see the error in my ways. But so far even though I’ve met relationship guys who actually plan wonderful dates and follow up I haven’t met one I really wanted to kiss. To be open minded I even kissed a few a few times to be sure. I just feel so up in the air. To the point where I think there is no one for me. I either hold our for the type that will never come, or be so open minded and feel no attraction. Believe me I’m really really trying to question all my preconceived notions. I do have to say I’m enjoying the company of these new men and I’m enjoying the positive attention. But in the same way as I would enjoy a new friend.
Ria 42
l wanted to jump in before and l do it now. I admire Amy´s point of view in a way, but here is the thing with Karin NOT choosing Gary and why it´s good she does choose Gary.
Lets imagine Karin – she is blond (about shoulder lenght hair), tall, dresses well (Prada, Valentino, Chanel), knows the labels by the latest trends, has strong opinion (and she IS usually right), has her personal hair dresser in her fast dial and all that jazz. Which is fab, and many look up for her. Except there is one thing – she has alwys failed to attract those hot charismatic alpha males for a long run and most probably, by the age of 42, she realizes that it´s not only that she is *doing* anything wrong, but she is the *type* that just does not attract those alpha males in a long run. (Have you seen alpha male really going crazy for the girl HE wants? you know what l am saying). And there is no other way, but rethinking and replanning your action plan.
So by the time she is 42, she actually (with the help of our Guru Evan) takes time and gets real about it. She will NEVER attract AM-s in a long run, but there is still colors and options for her in life, so kudos to Karin for realizing that. So she chooses Gary NOT because the last train has gone, but she sees the new way of viewing at things. OK, she might not have the *deepest sweet attraction mixed with the pain of uncertainty* she experienced with those alphas who never stick aroudn for a long run, but l belive, that as smart as Karin is, she has enough brains and judgement ability for choosing Gary, because there are characteristics in him, that beats those Alphas in a long run. Trust me when l say – should Karin had seen some fundamental laws in Gary, she would not have chosen. But she did. So obviously how Gary made her feel was a big difference of what she had experienced before and that mattered.
Still-Looking 43
Amy @ 40 – I apologize for my original response to you. I misconstrued what you said. I may not agree with everything you have said but it is always nice to read a well written counterpoint.
K @ 41 – I believe many of us share the same feelings you expressed. I guess that’s why I’m Still-Looking.
Gradient 44
@Amy You’re putting what is essentially an impression of Gary into boxed stereotypes based on your own experiences with men. Just because he is a teacher doesn’t mean he is a kid who doesn’t care about money and will leech off Karin. You should think about getting some grey in between those black and white extremes in your mind. Just because you’ve been hurt and messed around by men doesn’t mean that you are justified in seeing the world the way you do and raining on others’ parade. If you (and others) want to be cynical, fine, great, go right ahead. But please don’t assume that that is everyone’s reality because we create our own realities and manifest what we believe. Besides, you seem very materialistic (not a gold digger, you are just stuck in that ‘buy me stuff to show me you care’ headspace). Meh.
amy 45
Ria — EXACTLY — until you get the the point about choosing Gary, which I see as “well, I can’t get what I want, so I’ll try to want what I can get.” But trying to want, as K points out, ain’t the world’s most successful strategy. People used to live with it because they were more dependent on each other, but it wasn’t terrific, and they’d just go have affairs and be miserable with each other.
I think the real question here is: what did she want more, man or child? (I’m biased, but I think “child” is usually the better bet.) And if she wanted a child more, she’s in a rare position. She’s actually in a good spot to have one on her own. If her family’s not supportive, she can buy support. She’s got a recessionproof occupation. And she’s well-established in her career, no doubt insured up the wazoo. She may even be nearly done paying off student loans.
You have to ask, of course, whether that’s fair to a kid. But if she’s near family, and has a loving and supportive family, well shoot, that’s more than lots of two-parent kids get.
Karin’s something of an outlier because she is so successful, and that changes the whole baby equation. A woman who doesn’t make much money’s in a much more secure spot, having a child. In a divorce, she’ll likely keep the child and collect child support. But a high-powered woman will likely take the man spot in divorce, and see her child move out, eventually to be raised by another woman. That seems to me a searingly painful scenario, definitely to be avoided. Which, when you look at it, makes Karin’s initial impulse to go for the alpha male and avoid Gary extremely sensible.
sarahrahrah! 46
@EMK
I LOVED this story! Thank you very much the inspiration and your well-written and substantive blog postings.
@Amy
Unlike others who have posted on here, I don’t think you are totally off base. Obviously, you’ve made some major assumptions about Karin and Gary based on stereotypes and generalizations regarding occupational choice. That’s fair game given that you have very little information about each of them.
I think your assessment of class values between Karin and Gary is dead on. Essentially, you’ve classified Karin as identifying with upper class values and Gary as solidly middle class. Your proposed future for Karin and Gary based on a values clash seems plausible based on what I know of research on American class values. Despite the criticism you’re garnering, I think you’ve done readers a favor by hopefully getting them to examine their own value systems in the context of long term relationships.
Your proposed scenarios reminded me a lot of my own life. I am an ambitious person who married my second husband, an alpha male, in my early thirties. I loved my husband, I didn’t see him much. The tradeoff was that I got to run our household however I wanted and was firmly in charge of all of the parenting. I wanted to give my children the best and always strove to do that. After our kids were in school and I went back to work, I found out my husband was cheating, which I couldn’t tolerate. Long story short, the alpha male side of my ex-husband came out during our divorce and he demolished me financially. He now is now involved with a woman who is uneducated and unsophisticated woman whom he is using trying to raise our children with his financial advantages (but with a different value system) , while I struggle financially to give our children the same educational and social opportunities I sought to give them during our marriage. Honestly, that part really kills me.
The reason I share this story is that I think that Karin is no worse off with a “nebbish,” than with an alpha type. In fact, I think if Gary can get along well with others (which is fair assumption if he’s a career educator), she is far better off with someone like him rather than an alpha. Divorce is always a possibility, but divorce with an alpha vs. a normal guy is a like night and day. Many males don’t pursue support from women out of sheer pride, but if Gary has high emotional intelligence (which would could infer), he will likely be motivated to make the relationship work instead of seeking divorce. In summary, I think a woman like Karin would be better off with a nice “beta” in marriage and — worst case scenario — in divorce, too.
Finally, to address your concerns about the values clash between Karin an Gary, I think you have to acknowledge other competing values and needs within the individual. While the Upper Middle Class/Upper Class strata tends to value money and financial security, research in the behavioral sciences has always shown us that personal happiness and well-being is directly correlated with the quality of our relationships. Karin may have Upper/Upper Middle Class values, but she’s also still a warm blooded human being with emotional needs. At some point, intelligent, lonely people may evolve and consciously decide to re-examine their values and adopt new, more adaptive ones. That is exactly what Karin decided to do, which is why this article is so inspiring. I understand your cynicism at the possibility of this happening, but my guess is that both Karin and Gary value education and self-improvement and this might serve as a bedrock of shared values on which they can build their relationship.
Ruby 47
Geez, since when are doctors and teachers that far apart on the class spectrum? I get SarahRaRah’s point about upper class and middle class, but I don’t feel that the divide here is all that great. I’ve known schoolteachers with more generosity and sophistication than some doctors, that’s for sure. If Gary were more blue-collar, then, yes, that would be a greater difference. The most offensive thing to me about amy’s posts are how classist they sound, how absolutist, and stereotypical, not to mention that she has already mapped out all the particulars of Karin’s inevitable divorce before the wedding has even taken place. But I hear that a lot on this blog: if a man isn’t alpha, he’s beta. Winner/loser. There are never any shades of gray.
I might have sounded like a disbeliever in my previous post, but in Karin’s email, she sounds really happy. Who are we to second-guess that at this stage?
helene 48
I realise this is slightly off topic, but I would like to say something in defence of alpha males, having been married to one for 15 years and having had a subsequent LTR with another. Yes, these guys were assertive, highly intelligent, always thought they were right,pain in the ass and selfish at times, and their my-way-or-the-highway, failure to compromise attitude to relationship differences eventually led me to leave both of them, but being an alpha male does NOT mean a person lacks morals and will wipe the floor with you in a divorce or break-up. Both of my exes behaved with respect towards me at all times during and after the break-ups, and financially behaved in a fair and decent manner. Both continue to exhibit concern for my wellbeing and offer support and encouragement for my dreams and ambitions, albeit from a distance. Neither of them has any interest in getting back together with me, one has even remarried, so this is not the motivation for their behaviour. I agree wholeheartedly that alpha males have their serious downsides, but they are called alpha for a reason – they do have many highly positive attributes, and in my view are generally morally stronger that their more easily-led B brothers.
amy 49
Still-Looking: Thanks. I appreciate it.
Gradient: I’ve never dated a teacher. I’m involved in sales to them, though, and have spent years on teachers’ forums and lists. All the guys I’ve been involved with have been highly ambitious, one way or another, and a few have been wealthy. But there are enough people telling their stories in the world these days that you don’t have to base things on personal experience anymore. Just go listen to what people tell you about their lives.
About upper/middle etc. — I see what you’re saying, but that’s not really how I see this. Think of what it takes just to get into and through med school v. what it it takes to get a teaching license. Med school requires considerably more planning, brights, discipline, organization, and work. For a woman, it’s also a battle in a boys’ club. Once you’re out of med school, the hours remain grueling, the responsibility doesn’t get much more serious, the review is unrelenting, and you’re forced to reckon with business realities. Oh, and odds are good you borrowed $200K to get there. I don’t begrudge doctors’ pay. If Karin’s a doctor at 42, she’s almost certainly brighter, harder driving, better organized, more ambitious, more of a planner, harder working, more attuned to business realities, and more responsible than Gary is. I’d even wager she’s got a better driving record. Like I said, if she was looking for a wife, then bingo. There’s a reason why so many male doctors have schoolteacher wives. The part where Karin loses out, though, is that the schoolteacher wives don’t generally come with male egos, and those have consequences.
amy 50
Oh, and Gradient, re materialism: I drive a 24-year-old car and live in a modest house. But money is serious business. If you don’t believe it is, ask your parents.
I accept that men will in general devote their entire lives to playing king of the mountain, and that the currency they use for showing each other who’s boss is money. Okay. So if a guy is serious about me, he can court me, and he can do it appropriately. Let me see that he means it, and that he values me. Talk is pleasing but cheap; courtesy is appreciated; but let him woo me with something he had to go out and fight for.
Ria 51
Hi, Amy, thanks for a point, love it! There is, however one thing that is dingleing in my mind. Which is – if there was such a need just to have a baby, there are options like (IVF) or (short-fling-with-alpha-male and …you know.)
So let us portrait Gary, then. He is stabile in what he does (he has been in his job position for long l assume) and he does not have this Hamlet syndrome a la to be or not to be, meaning questioning his path of life (and belive me, that is VERY important). I belive Gary is one of those guys who is happy with the way he is, no matter of the missing big bank account and BMW. And thats cool. Did l read Gary was a teacher?10 points to him because do you know how big responsibility lies on teachers? That to me shows, that Gary is able to take full responsibility and he is doing it.
What else is Gary – he is loyal and man of words. And now a short sentence from Evan´s article: “Moreover, he was enthusiastic, cute, successful and very much interested in Karin as a girlfriend.” Note – enthusiastic, cute and successful.
sarahrahrah! 52
@ amy — In California it takes two years beyond the bachelor degree to become a teacher and the requirements are more rigorous than those for community college instructors. I also frequently encounter secondary educators in my work and most do not seem to be the “bottom of the barrel. ”
@helene — I’m glad that your alphas didn’t treat you like garbage the moment you split with them. I think the great danger of being with an alpha is that they follow their own rules. If they are a highly ethical person, great. If not, you had better watch out.
Maverick 53
I’d also like to add that the apparently ethical alpha males are not always the ones that most vocally proclaim their own ethical status. Take it from someone who watched at close distance a situation where a supposedly ethical alpha male had severe cognitive dissonance over his marital affair, which was not consistent with his image of himself as a moral person, and then dragged out his divorce in a extremely bitter and venomous way in a (sublimated) attempt to self-justify his behavior, and in this process alienated everyone in his immediate and extended family. This sublimation was patently obvious to everyone else watching, of course.
Probably the best predictor of this is whether or not the alpha male has ultimate respect for you as a female and a partner, and whether or not he has high EQ. The lower his EQ is, the more likely he is to resort to these sorts of tactics.
Sherell 54
not going to last
Joe 55
@ Amy #49: while becoming a doctor may be a battle in a boys’ club, becoming a teacher is a battle in a girls’ club.
Nadia 56
Amy’s argument is a valid one. Also, I like the way Amy has chosen to not to make personal insults at opposing commenters. I agree with Amy. Not too many women who have overcome tremendous obstacles to become successful want to marry a man without the same initiative. Personally, I will NEVER give a man money or provide for him in any financial way. That is his job – provide and protect. I’m not saying that he has to make the same amount of money, but he would need to have some goals and past successes in his chosen endeavors. Karin, in my opinion, settled. But I wish her the best.
Still-Looking 57
Nadia @ 56 – You stated that you will never give a man money or provide for him in any financial way because it is a man’s job to provide and protect. What are you providing? Do you really feel that a “what’s yours is mine, what’s ours is mine, and what’s mine is mine” attitude is fair? I’m just trying to make sure I’m reading your comments correctly, so if you married you would expect your husband to pay for the house, the groceries, the car, etc. and you would not even pay for your pedicures??
Nadia 58
@57 – I’m talking about providing food, shelter, and basics for a man. No way, no how. I am fully capable of taking care of ALL of my financial needs by myself.
Darci 59
Hi Evan!
I love this story and I don’t believe the negativity about it not lasting. It sounds like Karin is a woman who has not only worked on some of her own issues but is planning on continuing to work on them in order to have the happiness she has sought for so long. Aren’t there tons of highly successful women who are beginning to re-evaluate what they want and need out of a relationship – i.e. not money but love?
I also wanted to tell you that I have been reading your blog for a while and LOVE how you spout out mini-truths that are pretty blunt but absolutely true. Some of us need that shock therapy to see how our own choices have brought us pain, but in the end they are our choices. We can choose better.
I have recently started dating a really, really great guy that I probably would not have given a second glance before reading your advice. He is smart, kind, funny, attentive, family-oriented, and a really good match for me. The reasons I wouldn’t have chosen him before? While historically a responsible provider, he is currently going through a career move and is not financially well off because of it…and he’s not “hot”.
The funny thing is, all of his wonderful qualities just keep getting brighter and brighter and outshining any of the superficial reasons I would have rejected him as a partner And while I couldn’t tell you just yet that he is “the one”, I can say that he is pretty great and if he’s just an example of the kind of man I am open to now then my romantic prospects are a thousand times brighter then they were just a few months ago.
So, keep up the good work! You’re a match-making guru!
Joe 60
@ Nadia: if you’re fully capable of taking care of your financial needs, WTF do you care whether the guy is an alpha (i.e. an intiative-taker), as long as he can take care of his own shit?
Christie Hartman 61
I’m pretty surprised at how many people here think Karin “settled.” How is it settling to marry a cute teacher, who you love and who treats you great? She’s a physician, he’s a teacher. They’re both educated professionals who work in helping professions. What exactly is the problem?
I’m also surprised at how many assumptions people are making about both Karin and Gary’s attributes, based on little more than their chosen careers and a couple of examples. And this is probably the 3rd time I’ve heard people insult teachers on Evan’s blog, which is utterly insane considering the huge responsibility it is to teach others.
SS 62
Christie… I’m late to this thread, but you said it all. I find the whole teacher = near loser dichotomy rather amusing really. Then again, I find that a lot of the readers of this board are coming from a coastal perspective where the super-alpha type professions (whether held by men or women) are in great supply… while here in Peoria, your average doctor with his family practice rubs elbows with the average high school teacher and maybe even the cop or firefighter… and all have about equal social standing, heaven forbid!
(I don’t really live in Peoria, but I am from one of your average Midwestern mid-sized cities of about 100,000 or so!)
My father taught elementary school. So did my mother. Both had master’s degrees. Their income combined put our household over the six-figure mark and income-wise, my brother and I would have probably been considered upper middle class and “advantaged” compared to many of our peers.
Oh, and my father was a military man first before he settled into the wild world of elementary school. To this day, young boys (now men) he taught thank him for being a father figure to them and teaching them what it meant to be a good, upstanding example of a man and providing that type of guidance when they needed it. For taking them to their first ever baseball and basketball games. For teaching them about life. Etc., etc.
So when I was dating and met men who were teachers, I was thrilled… because if they were anything remotely like my father, I would be a lucky woman to be with them and so would our future children.
But hey, to each her own…
amy 63
Re teachers and doctors: I mean no disrespect to teachers. I couldn’t do their job (not on the K-10 level, anyway, and certainly not in the admin/legal environment they work in). They’re often trained as great classroom managers, and they’re usually warm people who really get kids.
But I’ve worked with teachers, and worked with doctors and med students, and as far as intelligence, stamina, and drive go, i don’t think there’s any contest. Docs, hands down. Keep in mind that this is a group of people who generated lots of complaints at a labor-board ruling restricting residents to working 80 hours a week *on average*. They thought it wasn’t enough. And if they’re not working in hospitals, they’re also small businesspeople; they’re not relying on a union to negotiate contracts and a board/admin to take care of running all but the doctoring part. It’s considerably harder to get into med school than it is to get into ed school, and you have to be a gambler: you’ll likely be $250K+ in the hole by the time you finish your education.
I’m not saying anything about relative niceness, decency, any of that. Just saying that if you stack up a random hundred docs and a random hundred teachers, I’m pretty sure the docs will be brighter, harder-driving, and have greater stamina.
Ruby 64
Many of my friends are artists and writers who also teach to support themselves. Granted, most of them teach at the college level, so maybe amy’s not referring to them, but some of them teach high school also. They are extremely smart and hard-working, although I’d grant that they may be more dedicated to their creative careers than to their teaching. But teachers are not all cut from the same cloth.
Someone who works 80 hours a week probably pulls in a high income and is certainly hard-working, but might not be the best choice if you want a husband who actually has some time to stay home with you and your children, and who might be in a better position to support your own very demanding career. That sort of dedication to one’s job can come at the expense of a more balanced life.
Joe 65
How many hours a week do you think teachers work?
nathan 66
Amy, I have waited to respond to your comments because as they have unfolded, my perceptions have changed. I was quite irritated by your first few comments, because they seemed like blanket rejections of men in general tat had little substance to them. However, some of the more specific points you have said since then resonate with me, and I can definitely understand why other commenters are enjoying what you are saying.
Overall, though, the tone you give off is that of someone who feels superior to nearly everyone else, something that undermines the valid points you are making. You also have an extremely narrow view of the intelligence and skills of teachers – people without whom none of us, yourself included, would probably be able to construct these sentences, to offer just one example. You, like many folks, DO disrespect teachers because you buy into the idea that they aren’t terribly important in society. Those doctors you uphold wouldn’t be there without all the teachers that helped them over the years, including their med school professors. Making a lot of money isn’t really a great predictor when it comes to intelligence, confidence, or even ambition. Many careers simply aren’t valued that much, and no amount of ambition and intelligence will make someone rich doing them. Conversely, there are careers that are highly overpaid, such as professional athletes, where you don’t even need to maintain a strong level of ambition in order to make millions. Guys like NFL receiver Randy Moss have ridden natural talent for years, but I doubt anyone would be attracted to him based on intelligence or ambition. Feel free to keep believing that wealthier guys are “better,” but know that there is endless evidence to disprove that point.
I honestly don’t know if Karin “settled” or not. It does seem to me that she would have had to made some serious attitude changes to truly have a great relationship with her new husband. And maybe she did. I’d like to think so. At the same time, I can imagine that she will be challenged internally and also by those friends and others who she has surrounded herself over the years. in any case, I wish them all the best.
amy 67
Nathan, thanks for that kind prefatory remark.
I don’t accept that I disrespect teachers. They do an extremely difficult job under frequently ridiculous circumstances — one I couldn’t and wouldn’t do — and while pay’s improved considerably over the last decade or so, they’re not exactly getting rich from it. For some children, they’ll provide the only consistent love and attention the child knows. And for others, they’ll be windows into worlds the parents never would have shown them. My daughter’s teachers are good people, and she loves them. She loves going to school, and she’s patient with the school’s limits. I’m grateful to them. They’re warm and thoughtful and intelligent, and many are intelligent about how children learn.
However. I’m talking about relative intelligence, drive, and stamina. I have worked with and for large numbers of both teachers and doctors, and spent good time in conversation in both. And I mean no disrespect at all when I report that the doctors are in general, brighter, more driven, and go longer distances.
As much as I respect the work that teachers do, I am not inclined to overestimate either their intelligence or the quality of their teaching. And no, they did not teach me to write. As it happens, I learned to read and write a few years before I got to kindergarten, and was one of those reader-aheads who’s got a nose in a book rather than eyes on the teacher. I left school early for university, where it was night and day, the quality and depth of the education, and my district was one of those that the ed people give all sorts of awards. I’m still learning from what my professors gave me, and our ongoing conversations are a source of great pleasure.
Ironically, I’m now part of the K12 sausage factory, and it’s because I do believe that children’s teachers are extremely important that I’d like to see us with much higher standards for entrance to ed school and qualifications for teaching certificates. We’re very heavy on pedagogy now, classroom management and how-to-teach, and these things are important. You can’t teach an unruly class, and you must be able to reach children. But understanding what you’re teaching is also important, and not enough of our teachers do. Our ed system lags against other nations’, and the golden hue around teachers won’t suffice in changing that. Pretending to teach science, economics, government, writing, history…too much of this goes on. And it has serious consequences, some of which you can see as people struggle to understand the current economic problems, and fail to see the geopolitical problems they pull with them — and eventually give up and go to church. Or in the recurrence of measles, a dangerous, potentially deadly disease, thanks to parents who’ve been scared into believing that vaccination will make their children autistic.
I can’t be specific, but inbetween posts here my work involves rewriting materials written by a highly-placed, highly-experienced, much-respected teacher, to be published by a prestigious publisher. I was actually hired to edit it, not rewrite. But it’s appalling. Plagiarized throughout, the pieces stuck together in ways that make plain that this teacher did not understand the subjects — which are the ones she teaches! It’s unusual only in how brazen this particular example is. So now my job’s changed. But this is what passes for top of the line in K12, and we have to do better than this. Being soberly respectful of teachers isn’t enough, it’s not doing the job.
(The best book I’ve ever read by a living schoolteacher: The First Moderns, by William Everdell, who teaches at St. Ann’s in New York. He’s got a pack of fancy credentials, including a Fulbright, but the main thing is he’s a wonderful, clear, intelligent historian who means business. St. Ann’s must be a wonderful school — I’ve read other good things by their faculty, too. Here’s from the wiki: “Instruction at Saint Ann’s is departmentalized from fourth through twelfth grade, with a teaching faculty numbering 220, made up of scholars, researchers, mathematicians, musicians, artists, and writers.” Not, it seems, ed majors with certificates in various subjects. They go find these very bright people who really know their stuff, work in the subjects, and who also get children and understand how to teach them. Maybe they take some pedagogy courses to help them do that, I don’t know. But this, it seems to me, is a smart way of going about it.)
At this point in the debate someone usually defends teachers by pointing to the miserable home lives of many of the children, and how it’s not fair to compare to private schools. I’ll concede that’s part of the problem (and, as you’ll see, take it back later). But only part. Another considerable part is — beyond the fact that teachers are so poorly trained in the subjects they teach, the requirements low compared with requirements for college students who will go out and be scientists and writers and engineers and historians and what have you — that they’re asked to, and acquiesce to, focus on hauling the least promising kids up over a test, while neglecting brighter kids. The combination of these problems…well, that’s how you get to 17th place. My kid watches docs on kids on China, Finland, and worries she’s not learning enough in school. She’s right. So she asks me for more, and I give it to her. (Why does she worry? Because over the past several years she’s asked questions about the economic news on the radio, and I’ve given her a baby education in banking and international trade and relations, and some history to go with it, and she understands that yes, she will compete for jobs with those children. Personally, I think she can relax a little while, but her conclusions aren’t bad.)
I have been puzzled by how readily the teachers acquiesce to this focus on the bottom, given that person-by-person they seem to think it’s a bad idea, and that they have one of the few remaining powerful unions. But they do acquiesce. They fear they’ll lose their jobs if they kick, despite the fact that we’re hard up for good teachers, especially in STEM. I think that says a lot about the people who work as teachers.
I think of what doctors would do if they were all put on fixed salaries, told not to schedule patients with a good shot at recovery, and to fill up their books with patients with poor prognoses. I think large numbers of them would go nuts. I think they’d organize and lobby like mad and fulminate everywhere about the waste of resources, and they’d grab money from wherever they could and break away into factions and start running their own medical groups and devise their own payment plans and means of treating the indigent. They wouldn’t stand for it, in other words. But the teachers do.
In fact every time there’s a bad curriculum change here, you get this outpouring of doctors, scientists, professors at the school board meetings, ranting away about the stupidity of the new programs. And they’re right. Either they take over and win, or — if it’s a done deal — they go away and figure out how to help their kids better at home, teach them after school, weekends, summers. Make sure the kids get a good strong education despite the schools. So what you get is a two-tier education: ed for kids with doctor/professor/scientist parents, and ed for kids without. Guess who does better? In fact I will go so far as to say that when you see a wonderful school district, what you are probably seeing is a school district with a high concentration of very bright professionals: docs, profs, scientists, writers, engineers. Money helps. But it’s not money that makes the difference. These are people who’d run a good school sitting under a tree, if they have the patience and people skills — and many of them do.
The main bright spot I see is the K-16ification of the academy, which has priced itself into a corner while producing a huge overstock of bright PhDs who adore teaching and love and know their subjects. The feds are already platting the undergrad years, standardizing, and the universities are already separating teaching from research. If your average PhD-holding adjunct finds that, as far as freedom in teaching, ed level, research time, and admin oppression goes, there’s no difference between a ragbag of no-security, no-benefits $2300/course adjunct jobs and teaching 8th grade at $65K with bennies and summers off — and all she has to do is spend a couple years getting a certificate — well, hell, it’s no contest, is it. That shift ought to be interesting. If we get enough of them in there, they’ll push for research time, too, so they can stay fresh. I suspect the ed schools won’t react well until someone shows them how there’s money in it. But there’ll be a bumpy transition time where the certificate-earners are brighter and more rigorously trained than the ed-school faculty is.
Goldie 68
@ #67, it’s news to me that all teachers share the exact same level of intelligence and exact same quality of their teaching. This isn’t the experience I’ve had with my children, who have been in the school system since ’98. Going back to Gary, he could be teaching college-level courses for all we know…
FTR I didn’t teach my kids on evenings, weekends, and summers — I do not have that kind of time, or that kind of thorough knowledge of all subjects at high-school and college level. My oldest son graduated 10th out of a class of 340 last year, and is now at sophomore level (all the AP classes that he took with those lowly teachers…) at a decent state university, where he got a full ride (thank you, son!) But it must feel good for the parents you describe to take full credit for the way their kids turned out, “despite the school”. Seriously, if the school district is so horrible that parents have to spend hundreds of hours with their kids, teaching them all over from scratch to undo the damage done by the school, why can’t they find a better district and move there? they should be able to afford it, being doctor/professor/scientists, right?
This is getting very far offtopic, sorry Evan. I’ll make it up to everyone by commenting on something that caught my eye in Amy’s #10:
“I know a couple who’re totally screwed up but a great match for each other. Both ambitious as hell. She’s a doctor and a lawyer; he’s a lawyer and a businessman; she gave it all up to be a housewife, which is what she really wanted all along. Lots of beautiful kids. Big fancy house. He cheats on her left and right, he’s never home. She’s furious at him all the time. But dang if they don’t understand each other and want the same things. They’ve been married nearly a decade.”
They will likely be married for the rest of their lives — but not because they’re a great match, and not because they want the same things, unless by “same things” you mean the $$$$. They will never divorce because they cannot afford to. She won’t want to lose the lifestyle, and he won’t want to pay a ton in alimony and child support. I’ve dated those guys — good-paying profession, stay-at-home wife, big fancy house… now wife’s in the big fancy house and the guy’s in an apartment, barely making ends meet after his alimony payments. Match made in heaven, indeed. If that was an example of what Karin should’ve gone for instead of marrying Gary, then I think she made the right choice.
Helen 69
nathan and amy: I enjoy reading your comments, but think this discussion has gone off track. Even if it were true that doctors are “brighter, more driven, and go longer distances” than teachers (which I find debatable), why does that matter in the slightest in a marriage?
Marriage is not about intellectual discourse. It is not about being driven. As for “going longer distances,” whether a spouse goes a longer distance for his beloved has nothing to do with the prestige of his job.
I would say that if Karin cares about a loving relationship and a good father for any children she may have, she may indeed find it easier to come by these qualities in a teacher than in most other occupations. If someone has been a teacher for a long time, he has learned a thing or two about getting along with all types of characters, and has dealt with some of the most difficult problems facing our society.
Congratulations to her.
nathan 70
Helen, I totally agree with your comment. Having been a teacher of both children and adults for most of m adult life – until the past year or so – I felt a need to check Amy’s comments again what I have experienced. However, in the end, profession isn’t really a great marker of a good partner. Nor is being driven or not. Because both of those things can change greatly over the course of a life.
Like I tried to say in my previous comment, the life expectations and connections Karin built up before meeting Gary could be the thing that most challenges their marriage. If she is surrounded by friends (and maybe family members) who don’t take Gary seriously because of his profession or lack of wealth, for example, that could be a major hindrance. And the expectations Karin had when she started working with Evan – I can imagine those were long held views that she slowly has had to let go of as she has been with Gary. And perhaps some of that is still lingering within her.
In addition, it would be interesting to know if Gary’s desire to please has changed at all. Because that sometimes is a default in the beginning of relationships that people employ because they are “in love,” or are afraid that challenging their partner will lead to abandonment. I’ve been like Gary before in the beginning, but inevitably got sick of being in that role. Those who are questioning the potential of this relationship seem to be pinning part of their critique on the idea that Gary is passive and not terribly confident or ambitious. Which might be true. Or perhaps as he and Karin have gotten to know each other better, he’s become more assertive and willing to do much more than just be pleasing. I’d say a lot hinges on whether or not he’s just a passive guy.
amy 71
Helen writes:
“Even if it were true that doctors are “brighter, more driven, and go longer distances” than teachers (which I find debatable), why does that matter in the slightest in a marriage?
Marriage is not about intellectual discourse. It is not about being driven.”
I’d say it is. More precisely, it’s partly about how each person values ambition, drivenness, intellectual firepower, and what it means to them.
Karin’s been trained in a hardcore environment and presumably has absorbed at least some of its values. If she hadn’t, it’s unlikely she’d still be working as a doc. Not only that, she pushed herself like the devil just to get to the starting line: not too many people can wake up one day and say, “yeah, med school, I think I’ll do that” and turn up the following year as an M1. Is she going to drop that so she can be home with family? …Mm, probably not. Will Gary be willing to be home alone? For years?
I was thinking about it, and all the successful practicing-doc women I know are married to other doctors who get it, and who’re usually higher-powered than they are. I think there’s probably a good reason for that.
As for intellectual discourse — hey, maybe that’s not what marriage is about for you. It is, and was, important for me. But that’s not even what I’m talking about. I’m talking about intelligence. Some people are quicker than others, see more, synthesize faster, move faster mentally. And you know what? It’s tough for most people to be with someone who’s quite a lot brighter and more energetic. Exhausting. It’s a dangerous thing for bright women, because so many men see it as a challenge. “Hey, I can keep up with her! Awesome run!” Only it’s not so awesome when it goes on for a year without letup, and when only the guy is running. Then it’s not so much fun. And it’s not the woman’s fault, either. It’s that he got in over his head without thinking how things might go.
And stamina? Yeah, it’s good when people are well-matched, and you don’t have one zooming around while the other’s yawning. It’s a good recipe for frustration and people going their own ways.
Now maybe Karin’s an unusually slow doc, and maybe Gary’s an unusually bright and energetic teacher, and they’re actually a match. Probably not, though.
@Goldie: Nobody said all teachers (or docs) were identical. I said that if you picked a random hundred of each, the docs would be brighter etc. Meaning on average. As for moving to better districts: They do, whenever they can. And then everyone gets bent out of shape as the old district scores tank, yelling about white flight and unfairness. In the better districts the docs, profs, etc. still try to push the K12 people around and do extra stuff with the kids at home.
@nathan…I’m with you on professions changing, but choice of professions tells something about character, and drivenness is, I think, relatively constant in people unless they get sick. The 14-yo entrepreneur doesn’t usually wind up writing the “I’m just an average guy” dating-site profile unless his tongue is firmly in cheek.
There’s no crystal ball, y’all. But there’s odds, and averages, and patterns, and it’s best not to go in thinking you’re going to be the special case. Because probably you’re not.
Christie Hartman 72
Helen said: “Marriage is not about intellectual discourse. It is not about being driven.”
Amy said: “I’d say it is. More precisely, it’s partly about how each person values ambition, drivenness, intellectual firepower, and what it means to them.”
Amy, I think it’s about how YOU value ambition, drivenness, intellectual firepower, and what it means to YOU. It’s clear to place a high value on these attributes. It’s also clear you feel the MD is the embodiment of these attributes. You also seem to place an unusually high value on intellect, and your comments are a bit reminiscent of the book The Bell Curve. You will get little argument from me on the fact that doctors and teachers, on average, may show some differences in IQ and personality. However, I think you are strongly exaggerating what we would call the “effect size” of those differences. I’ve worked in academia for years – at a medical school – and I’ve known my share of teachers as well, and the points you make don’t entirely jive with what I’ve seen.
I would agree that large IQ differences don’t work. But I maintain that the mean difference between a doc and a teacher isn’t so vast as you suggest. And, if Karin were some intellectual giant and Gary some intellectual slacker, she would not have married him. She wouldn’t want him and he wouldn’t want her. I also agree that large “stamina” differences don’t work well either, but I think your views on the stamina levels of docs vs. teachers isn’t based on much more than your own perceptions of such professions, based on your personal experiences.
All in all, I doubt Karin “settled” for someone who wasn’t her equal. I think she simply changed her definition of “equal,” which is the entire point of this post and what Evan does.
Goldie 73
@ Amy
I tell ya, good help is so hard to find these days 
Personally, with my children’s better teachers, I worked with them, not “tried to push them around” geez. With the worst ones, I tried to study with my kids at home, while at the same time making sure my kids don’t get stuck with that teacher long-term. Being in the honor-AP track took good care of that.
Nobody said all teachers (or docs) were identical. I said that if you picked a random hundred of each, the docs would be brighter etc. Meaning on average.
But that’s the thing — Karin did not marry a random hundred of teachers, she married one specific one! Can’t we just assume that her judgement is good enough that she picked one of the brighter ones?
As for moving to better districts: They do, whenever they can. And then everyone gets bent out of shape as the old district scores tank
Meh. I’m not here to change the world. I’m here to give my kids a good education, because, if I don’t, no one else will. Who cares if everyone gets bent out of shape? it’s not like they’re going to egg my house for moving.
In the better districts the docs, profs, etc. still try to push the K12 people around
LMAO they push them around huh? Must really suck to be the K12 people
I have to tell a story that I realize has nothing to do with dating, but it needs to be told in this thread. My older son, up until his senior year, refused to even apply for college. He almost didn’t get his National Merit Finalist standing, because on the application form, he’d checked “do not plan to go to college”, which we got changed at the last minute — this is how dead set he was on not going. Naturally he wouldn’t listen to anyone trying to get him to change his mind. His gifted coordinator made an appointment with a CS professor at a nearby university, went there with us while on her summer break, stayed there with us for a 1.5 hour appointment, talked to my son on the way back, convinced him to apply, and helped him through the application process. He’s now at that school, doing great, and feeling pretty happy about it. So yeah, this experience makes it kinda difficult for me to look down on K-12 teachers. YMMV
Helen 74
Thanks, nathan. I agree with this statement of yours: “the life expectations and connections Karin built up before meeting Gary could be the thing that most challenges their marriage.” I’m sorry for Karin, not in a putting-down way – she’s 42 and still so dependent upon what her peers think about something as intimate and personal as her own marriage? So concerned about prestige, even though she managed to achieve it herself?
Not that blame can usually be attributed to one person, but if there is a failure in this marriage, it seems more likely to come from her side than his. He seems perfectly comfortable with their relative accomplishments in life. She, on the other hand, was (is?) nursing all these hangups that are really unnecessary.
amy: 1) it doesn’t seem that you have much first-hand knowledge about physicians (honestly, some of these comments sound like they’re based on TV shows of docs), and 2) what you describe seems to be unique to your own preferences, and not representative of many besides you.
I call BS about the woman who was supposed to be both a practicing physician and a practicing lawyer. Yes, one can have both a MD and a JD, but one does not get to practice both simultaneously. I’m surrounded by physicians every day in my job. The female physicians are not by-and-large married to other physicians, nor do any of the physicians (male or female) strike me as being better spousal material than teachers.
Intelligence is NOT constant over a human’s lifetime. Being a teacher forces you to learn and adapt constantly, rather than an occupation in which you do the same things day after day. The day-to-day challenges of one’s occupation directly affect intelligence across multiple areas.
Finally, it is unusual to find someone who wants to be intellectually “on” 24/7 – even the most brilliant physicians (or physicists, for that matter) want a break. My husband and I fit society’s narrow definitions of prestigious and smart. How much time do we spend discussing the Poincare conjecture and Nietzsche and string theory and gnosticism? Close to nada. When we do, it’s not because one of us wants to knock the other down or put on a display of grandiose intelligence; it’s because it’s actually relevant and interesting. For heaven’s sake, most of us want to be married to someone whom we trust and like, around whom we can just relax. No one likes to be constantly in the ring. One would hope that one’s job allowed enough of that intellectual challenge so that we don’t constantly subject our loved ones to inquisition.
Soul 75
I would not assume that sb who has been studying like crazy for years and years, like most physicians, would be brighter than any other profession. If anything, they could be LESS intelligent because of all the time they have spent studying instead of LIVING (i.e. traveling, reading, discovering art and culture, searching their own soul, trying new things, meeting other people etc.), which is the very activity that gives you the wisdom that makes a human being intelligent and bright….
Goldie 76
@ Helen, as I found out from experience, I prefer being able to have intellectual discourse in a marriage or relationship. I was married to a very bright, capable man who has never worked an extra hour in his life, and whose interests consist mainly of TV shows, fishing, and tequila. He’s just a laid-back guy who wants to relax, all of the time. Whereas I on the other hand, get bored out of my skull just sitting around and watching TV, I’ve got to have more intellectual stimulation of different kinds. As a result, we couldn’t talk about anything; when kids became teenagers, he and the kids couldn’t talk about anything; he had his friends and I had mine. And it only got worse over time, no matter how hard everyone tried. I felt like a fish out of water around his friends and he felt the same around mine. His friends’ wives were shocked that I don’t watch American Idol and The Next Top Model (or whatever that thing is called)… “what do you even do for fun if you don’t watch TV?”, they asked. You just don’t think these things are important because you have them readily available in your marriage… to you, they come so naturally that you don’t even notice.
That said, agree about teachers and constant learning. Also, as a former teacher friend of mine said, you cannot teach middle school unless you have a sense of humor. And I bet that bright middle school/high school students keep their teachers on their toes intellectually at all times.
Helen 77
Goldie, unless you know me personally, it is rather presumptuous to make the statement at the end of your first paragraph in 76.
Hub and I actually enjoy watching TV and doing outdoor activities together, like your ex. If that makes others despise us, so be it.
If people expect to always have easy, fluent conversations with their spouses, they are setting themselves up for disappointment. So that no one gets the wrong idea about marriage, I’ll give the insider’s view and fully admit that there are times that hub and I go out to dinner while someone else watches the kids, and we find it hard to figure out what to talk about. This is even though we’re both stuffed up to our eyeballs with philosophy and literature and science (and TV shows!). That just happens. It’s not a reason to automatically think there’s something wrong with the spouse or the marriage. Bill Cosby said it himself in one of his old books, about how when he’d go out to dinner with his wife, he’d find it hard to converse about anything but the kids, and there would be plenty of awkward silences. So what – it’s not a big deal. It’s what happens when two people have known each other a long time.
You can’t always be chasing after excitement. What is true of chasing hot bodies is also true of chasing deep and thrilling intellectual conversations. It’s not sustainable, and the latter doesn’t get a pass because it’s somehow “deeper.”
amy 78
@helen: I’ve worked in a large teaching hospital and count many docs among my friends. Yes, I know something about docs, med school, hospital culture. As for “calling BS” on my friend who’s got the MD and JD — hey, you’ll have to talk to her if you want to insult her degrees. If you’d read carefully, you’d see that she doesn’t practice either at this point; she’s a housewife.
I’d say you’re also wrong about intellectual conversation. The bright people I started out with as intellectual playmates are still, by and large, part of the gang, and yes, the conversation is as lively and salon-ish as it ever was. The only reason it’s unsustainable is if you haven’t got a continuously roving, seeking mind. On the contrary, a really bright person’s conversation will deepen and broaden over time, and get much smarter. I’m sorry if your relationships go a bit dull, intellectually. I’ve never been in a relationship where we had nothing to talk about except my marriage, and my ex later admitted he’d tricked me, told me lots of lies about what he knew, what he’d studied, etc. The conversations I thought might happen — there wasn’t any chance, it was all a fake.
If you and your husband don’t know what to talk about, why don’t you bring journals along — one ex and I never went to a restaurant without NYers and NYRB in hand — and have fun sharing what you read?
@Soul: It’s a matter of quickness. You have to be very, very quick, not to mention ambitious in the scope of the info you’re willing to go after and assimilate, to get into med school and make it. In general I have not — in 40 years — found teachers on the whole to be that bright. If you’re very quick and ambitious, and you’re with someone who’s slower, then it doesn’t much matter how much wisdom-developing’s gone on over the years. The slower person simply won’t be able to keep up the pace, and it turns out that this matters, esp. when the slower one’s the man.
I know y’all find these distinctions offensive, but life is what it is. Med school’s a tougher gig than ed school. Men don’t like being consistently shown up; women don’t like feeling that they have to hobble themselves in order to preserve the guy’s ego; nobody likes to be bored.
Helen 79
amy: “I’m sorry if your relationships go a bit dull, intellectually. I’ve never been in a relationship where we had nothing to talk about…”
And how successful have your relationships been?
Somehow it doesn’t seem that these intellectual conversations have exactly translated to a long-term relationship, which is what this blog is about. Or, for that matter, faith in men in general, based on a variety of your comments.
Observer 80
Since people are encouraged to be explicitly candid on this blog, what a lot of crap from one particular female writer here!!!
In #40 she imputes that she is an almost perfect person because she has met Nobel nominates!! By the same logic could I promote myself to be G_d because I took university undergraduate chemistry and physics classes from four different Noble prize winners!!????
Mr. Katz implied in #24 that she should take her “crap” elsewhere because a) her speculations about the future evolution of the marriage illustrated in this story are simply that!!!, her SPECULATIONS, based upon NO KNOWN DATA, b) her other commentaries are a classic Psychology 101 university freshman-level course example of the psychopathology of the neurosis known as “projection”!!! Watching her mind, displayed from the commentaries that she wrote on this particular blog, remind me of watching a sewer overflowing after a violent storm!!!
She claims to be intellectually superior, well-educated, sublime genetic material (from bragging about her daughter), and we are “ordered” to accept everything she states simply because she is “intimate” with the upper echelons of society! Aside from all of it being a boxcar load of BS, I can certainly MATCH AND BEAT her on any and every claim that she makes about her supposed superiority!!! So what!!
The purpose of the blog was a story about what might be considered a conventionally highly fortunate woman (financially endowed, in a respected secure career) whose life was “unfulfilling”. And, who therefore learned a very valuable lessor from life by re-looking over that which she had already overlooked! Perhaps #40 could learn something from such a metaphor!
Helen 81
Observer, that’s a bit harsh, but there’s some truth to what you say. amy has made many good and interesting points, but has also made points that are irrelevant, arrogant, or unsupported – particularly her comments regarding teachers and the importance of intellect in long-term relationships.
Her assumption seems to be that because Gary is a teacher who drives a Toyota, he is intellectually inferior to Karin, and therefore, the relationship will fail. There are two leaps in logic here: first, that teachers are intellectually inferior to doctors, and that intellect is the critical ingredient in relationships.
amy, I crave intellectual discourse as much as you, and am delighted when I can find someone with whom to exchange philosophical thoughts and witty repartee. But intellect turns out to be no better than looks in the success of long-term relationships. Far more important are kindness, patience, and thoughtfulness.
I felt sorry for you when you suggested that my husband and I bring reading material on our dates, saying that you and an ex had done this. I wouldn’t give the time of day to anyone who brought reading material to a meal with me; nor would I ever treat another person that way. That is just plain rude. If you can’t devote your full attention to a date, then there is no point in going out with him or her. Doing that smacks of one who is either so desperate to be intellectually stimulated all the time, or so desperate to prove s/he’s intellectual, that basic manners and regard for others just fly out the window. Not a good sign for an LTR.
If Gary is a good guy as Karin states, then she has found the most important thing to make a LTR successful. A lifetime together means many practical trials, which are best handled with a good, thoughtful, and patient mate. I wish them the best.
Ellen 82
Tastes change over time: I started out over impressed with intellect. In time, like Helen #81, I started putting less emphasis on a man’s intellect and WAY more on his character, kindness, maturity.
Even a man who’s only been two years to technical school, is well-read per se, can be fascinating if he has true intellectual curiosity.
oh, yeah, go Tarheels. lol
And note Amy that not everyone “leads” with their intellect: I no longer do. I am pretty comfortable with who I am, and despite 20 years schooling and a master’s degree, I don’t spout my knowledge, opinions much anymore to the point where I am sometimes patronized by strangers. One obnoxious co-worker noted my diploma from UNC-CH the other day and acted genuinely surprised.
Kash 83
@Amy: how about that story: Gary was a happy teacher, liked what he was doing never really dreamt about big career. All he wanted was to have his job he liked and a great wife he could cherish and spend his life with. He wanted to be a father. He met women in his life but nothing turned into a lasting relationship. And he met Karin. Karin was so great and successful, he admired her for that so much, he fell in love and could not imagine his life without her. When she finally agreed to marry him he could not believe in his luck. Karin made him feel so great as a man that he actually found in himself so much potential. He decided to change his career and open up his own business. He has never felt such a drive to do more as now. Having Karin opened him up to the new possibilities. Now he has his own company and is doing really well. Karen cant believe that apart from having this wonderful man he also become more energetic and ambitious and is so proud of him and changes in his life he made, not for her but for himself.
Have you considered that? Why all the relationship that might start as it seems from settling in in some little areas cannot change into even better and more positive. Some people need only a little bit of that to grow and if they have behind them someone who truly love them they do things they could never think about ???? But that would be too happy for you Amy wouldn’t it?
Kirt 84
That woman will eventually get sick of Gary and divorce him – guaranteed! She will start to think that he isn’t good enough for her and then will lose attraction. She is the type of neurotic self-centered white collar professional woman whom successful men generally try to avoid. I’ve met my share of women like that who are quick to judge a man based on the most superficial reasons and those women are just plain crazy and should probably be seeing psychiatrists.
M 85
I feel physically ill after reading Amy’s comments.
I’m not sure I can comprehend how one gets to be so hateful and disdainful of men, teachers, people who aren’t as wealthy as others, and who knows who else.
It isn’t possible for everyone to be a “high achiever,” whatever that means, because then who would work at burger joints, perform janitorial duties and do a host of other jobs that are all important for our society? Moreover, doctors are just people, they have utterly no more or less morality than the average joe, and guess what: in a few short years they’re going 6 feet under along with the rest of us. So there’s your great equalizer.
I want to get married in my life, but the more comments I read on these threads of the contempt women have for men, maybe it’s best if I never do and die alone. I want someone who genuinely loves me for me, not for my bank account, and even if I am never loved, I’m just as worthy of it as any other man or woman.
R 86
M, I agree with what you say. Every emotionally healthy person would want to be loved for who he/she is rather than how much he/she earns or shows up others in intellectual conversations.
WildIrishRose 87
Evan – Thank you so much for sharing Karin’s story. I really enjoyed hearing about her success. Her story made me feel optimistic, especially as I have made changes within myself that have resulted in positive changes in my dating life. I feel like I’m on the right track!
@amy – Your negative comments brought me down a notch or two. I’ll breeze past your comments in the future. Who needs it? Ugh!