How You Can Transform Your Man on a First Date
If you find that your dates consistently don’t go well, the easy thing to do is say, “He wasn’t the right guy”. However, it’s much more powerful for you to look in the mirror and say, “How could I have made tonight go better?”
I can already hear you sigh:
“But I don’t WANT to make my first dates better. If a guy is nervous around me, that says something about him. I want a man who is confident, who is completely comfortable in his own skin, and can make the best of every situation.”
Gotcha.
Now imagine a time that you were in the presence of a jaw-droppingly hot guy. He’s tall, gorgeous, rich, charismatic – and utterly oblivious to you as a romantic partner.
If you find that your dates consistently don’t go well, the easy thing to do is say, “He wasn’t the right guy”.
Do you feel confident?
Do you feel secure?
Do you speak profusely?
Do you clam up?
Whatever your answer, I’m pretty sure that there are some men whose mere presence totally messes you up.
Suddenly, you’re not acting like yourself.
Suddenly, you’re acting like a skittish schoolgirl with her first crush on a boy.
There are awkward silences. There is nervous laughter. There is stilted conversation.
But most of all, there is no chance for another date.
So if you’ve blown an opportunity with a hot guy because you weren’t able to act at your best, wouldn’t it stand to reason that there’s a great guy out there who wasn’t on the top of his game on your first date?
Damn right.
It also stands to reason that when you show up 10 minutes late, text on your cell phone, look over his shoulder, lean back with your arms crossed, don’t seem interested in his stories, interrogate him about his past, grill him on his beliefs, and dissect every single thing that you don’t like about him… that it may be hard for a man to have true confidence and poise in your presence.
Your takeaway from this short blog post is this:
Instead of seeing dating as a time-consuming, soul-sucking enterprise, where you have to figure out in an hour whether he’s a good husband and father and great in bed, try seeing it more like you’re entertaining a client and want to win his business.
Smile. Laugh. Go with the flow. Ignore his flaws. Do everything in your power to make the limited amount of time you have together into a fun experience.
Because if you’re having fun, he’s having fun.
If you’re easygoing and relaxed, he’ll be easygoing and relaxed.
But you can’t blame men for being bad dates if you’re not doing anything in your power to try to make their job easier.
As I wrote in “Why He Disappeared”, he’s putting on a show for you; the least you can do is applaud.
What you’ll quickly find is that the men you go out with are suddenly more confident, playful, and attractive, all because YOU decided to make them feel special.
It’s pretty magical when you can do this – on a first date and beyond.
Be a better woman and you will bring out a better side in your man.
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Why He Disappeared is the smart, strong, successful woman's guide to understanding men. If you want to learn how men think, and rediscover how to have meaningful relationships - all from a man's point of view - click here to learn Why He Disappeared. |
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72 Comments »Filed Under Dating, Flirting
Daisy 1
So to sum it all up, we need to stay positive, keep it light, and give him a 2nd chance, right? But what if throughout the 1hour-2hour date, he kept on glancing elsewhere or checking his phone when we’re talking to him? This is a major turn off for me, but do disrespectful dates deserve a 2nd chance?
david 2
I wish the last woman I went out with had read this!
Speed 3
@Daisy
I can make no excuses for rude guys. Some guys glance elsewhere or at their phones because they are shy or awkward or poor conversationalists. You were there in the actual situation, so I imagine you know whether they were arrogant or simply shy. I know “shy” isn’t a big turn-on for women, but I guess this is what this whole blog post is about.
Trenia 4
You had me up until “ignore his flaws”. I think flaws should be on some kind of continuum. There’s the “maybe his outfit isn’t exactly right” kind of flaw and there’s the “he’s demeaning to the waitress, this guy’s probably not so nice” kind of flaw. You don’t have to make a judgement on it, but it is a point of information. Paying attention to certain things in the beginning can prove to be especially important for women who may have been in any kind of violent or dangerous relationships in the past. Have fun and be flirty, but pay attention.
Karl R 5
Daisy asked: (#1)
“But what if throughout the 1hour-2hour date, he kept on glancing elsewhere”
There’s a fine line between making eye contact which shows we’re interested in what you’re saying, and having an unwavering stare which makes you think we’re a future stalker.
Everyone has a slightly different opinion of how much eye contact is appropriate (or possibly a very different opinion, if they’re from another culture).
If you want to limit your options, eliminate dates for inconsequential details like not knowing how much eye-contact to make. I had much better luck by cutting women some slack if they weren’t polished on the first date.
Evan Marc Katz 6
We’re talking, Trenia, about making the most of a first date with a man who has some redeeming qualities. Obviously, if he’s a tool who shows up a half hour late, stares at your boobs, is unemployed, stiffs you with the check, and makes derogatory comments about you, you don’t need dating advice.
Simple lady 7
You got it right Evan! I had a date with this intelligent man but does not talk much. On our first date I did most of the talking as I dont want the date to be a boring one. We both enjoyed our first date. After the date he thanked me for making him feel comfortable as he was a bit nervous. I gave him another chance for a second, third, fourth date and now we are both happy and getting more excited in our very young relationship. I learnt and learning alot from your blogs which makes my man gets more excited to me. Its really a nice feeling when a man is really interested with you as he initiates and always plan to see me. Guess what Evan? Im using the strategy”Play it cool”. Its bloody effective to me…Im a very assertive woman sometimes I scared off the past men I dated but since I started to read your blogs…Oh man! it helps alot. Wished I knew your website 3 years ago…Keep it up Evan! You’re doing very well! Thanks very much!x
Goldie 8
I used to err on the other side — on a first date, I used to let the guy get away with murder, figuratively speaking of course. My reasoning was — first date is a meet-and-greet, both people are nervous and anxious to make a good impression, but they don’t know how to make one since they don’t know each other. So when my first date from hell came along, I hadn’t even registered it as being hellish. I drove 45 miles to his area after work, as he didn’t have a driver’s license. Texted him when I left home. When I got there, he texted me that he’d just gotten back from a run and needed to shower and change before walking to our meeting place. I’d given him an hour notice and he still was 15-20 minutes late. He had his phone in front of him the whole time, getting texts, answering texts. Halfway through the date, a female friend of his walked over, said hello then asked him “what’re you doing tonight?” and right in front of me he said “don’t know yet, I’ll text you when I get out of here” True to my principle that first dates do not count against a guy, I let it all slide!… he repaid by messing with my head, playing me, dumping me and cutting off contact. So from there on out, when I went on first dates, I told myself that, while a guy still deserves a break, there are red flags. If he treats me badly on our first date, he’s out. If he shows no respect, he’s out. But other than that, yeah, I still believe that people should be given the benefit of a doubt on first dates. I dated for a total of about six months, met maybe a couple dozen people, and did what Evan says we should do — had fun. I met a lot of cool people, made a few good friends, and collected some hilarious first-date stories (like the one I just told.)
Michael17 9
Goldie #8: Something that myself and my guy friends have noticed is that women have crazy screening mechanisms. On the one hand, they will let some guys get away with crazy stuff as you did in your story, while on the other hand they will write off other guys for relatively small stuff such as coming across a little nervous or being “too” agreeable, and cite the chemistry thing. I mean, you gave this guy with all these huge red flags a second chance, but surely you have also decided against a second date with someone who was “nice but no chemistry” right?
He can correct me if I am wrong, but I think Evan is really talking about more going on a second date with the guys who was “nice but no chemistry”.
Evan Marc Katz 10
Not “no chemistry”, Michael. A “6″ will do. But understand, it’s hard to have chemistry when he’s nervous about pleasing her. His confidence is low, she’s not helping him get comfortable and it all spirals out of control. So I implore women to HELP their men be their BEST selves on the date – which is a better indicator of how he is in real life. Not everyone’s a natural dater, comfortable with strangers, extroverted and confident around attractive people. The more you can help those people shine, the more you can see their goodness. And get some extra chemistry, to boot.
helene 11
Having been on a huge number of date in the past 8 years, i’ve pretty much got the first date down to a tee now and almost always get asked on a second date. In a way this is good, as it then gives me the choice as to whether I want to see the guy again or not, but sometimes I end up feeling like I have led the guy on and i feel bad – I’ve been so smiley and interested and easy to talk to and laughed at his jokes and he thinks the date went really well, when in fact I was totally bored….
Sometimes, perhaps due to pressure from friends, I agree to second dates I don’t really feel enthused about, to “give the guy a chance” – sadly, I have come to the conclusion that this never seems to work out well for me, but just ends up confirming how I felt after the first date. So I have now decided that unless I am actually excited about the idea of seeing the guy again, I won’t accept a second date. That might sound harsh, but the tedious second date is an even worse experience to sit through than the dull first date, and then I STILL have to go through th horrible thing of saying I don’t want to see him again after all that… not fun.
amy 12
I’m with helene. Inconsiderate lovers, too, I’m not anxious to give them a second go. I’m all in favor of helping the conversation flow, but if you’re doing all the lifting, something’s wrong. Also if when he does talk, you get gems about how hard he’s suing his ex, etc. The only thing I can imagine remedying the “heavy lifting” problem’s if you get a message afterwards apologizing, saying he was just so undone by your beauty etc. that he behaved like an idiot, and he’s embarrassed and hopes you’ll give him a second chance.
henriette 13
If I’m not mistaken, Evan isn’t suggesting that we give the total dolts a second date. He’s saying be warm and open on the first date so if he’s a wonderful guy who’s not the most natural, smooth dater, we’ll have a better chance of glimpsing his fine qualities.
I really do try to behave like this on all my first dates. I figure that if a guy is horrid to me or just not interesting in spite of my gentle encouragement, I’ve at least practiced my dating skills and don’t give him a second chance. But there are plenty of guys who have shown themselves to be funny, kind and smart on date #1 once (and only once) they felt a bit more at ease. The guys who know how to turn on the charm & charisma for every girl aren’t necessarily the ones who turn out to be the best husband material.
Michael17 14
Evan #10: I know that you do not mean that one should settle for “no chemistry”. What I meant was that the chemistry that might be there later (at a level of 6 or even higher) is often not there *on the first date*, and that if you are to give someone a second chance, it’s better to give “nice but no sparks” the second chance (because the missing chemistry might appear within a few dates) instead of “red flags but lots of sparks” (because the red flags aint going away!).
Zannelf 15
I’m with Helene (11) and Amy (12). There’s a huge difference between the shy or nervous guy and outright Rude Dude. I think some of the best advice I ever got from Evan was to make the first date fun & enjoy yourself, regardless of whether your guy turns out to be not quite what you had hoped for. But this has also backfired a couple times when a guy contacts me for a second date, and I politely decline, and he feels I’ve tricked him. I’ve had them ask me, “Then why were you so nice to me?” Or “Well, you sure seemed like you were having a good time. Was that all fake?” I know I’ve asked myself that question when a guy seems genuinely interested in me, enjoying my company, only to be never heard from him again. Regardless, I still think it makes sense to give it your best shot, even if it’s just to make the best of an awkward (or boring) situation.
For me this isn’t a chemistry thing. I don’t need to feel chemistry on a first date; in fact, if I do feel instant chemistry (and here I mean lust) that’s always, ALWAYS a bad sign for me. I lose my judgment, and any remaining ounce of common sense I have goes right out the window, blinding me to the large, vibrant red flags unfurling around me. Slow-growing chemistry is what works best for me. Kinda like the Slow Food movement, only with libido instead of home-grown kale.
Ruby 16
Daisy #1
There’s a difference between someone who is interested in you, and is a nice guy, but happens to be shy or awkward, and someone who’s distractedly looking around and keeps checking his phone because he’s rude or not really interested. I’d cut the former some slack, and dismiss the latter.
Casey 17
Ditto with Helen @11! I feel exactly the same way and always get the comment “you are so easy to talk to”… But I rarely feel anything towards them. At 53, I’m no longer hormone driven and I really think that plays into how I’m looking at and hearing my dates….I do agree that making them feel comfortable (it just comes easy for me) and giving someone a second chance is important, otherwise (for me anyway) I could rule All men out. The issue comes in when they want some sort of physical interaction (date 2 or 3 let’s say) and I’m not ready….then I either feel guilty or I just tell them “it’s just not working” when in fact, if they had slowed it down, it might have worked….my 2 cents.
hespeler 18
I’ve posted this story in other blogs but think it is very pertinent here.
A couple of months ago I went out with the most physically attractive woman I’ve ever been on a date with. Including my ex-wife who was also beautiful. I couldn’t believe she actually replied to my e-mails and the e-mails and phone conversation that followed were so smooth it was almost organic. I should add in addition to her physical beauty, I really liked her personality – she really was exactly what I have been looking for at least based on my limited information up to that point.
Even though I was highly attracted to her, I’ve done a lot of dating in the last 2 years so I was not really stumbling or nervous (okay a little nervous but I was able to keep it in check). I was this way because IMHO, she was the most attractive and interesting woman on Match in my area and I strated to think that maybe, just maybe all the highs and lows of dating that I put up with over the last few years was finally paying off.
When I met her and we sat down (we went to a wine bar), she began commenting how much younger I looked in person (which I obviously took as a good sign). She was interested in the wine I ordered and wanted to try it and drank out of my glass a few times which also led me to believe that she was attracted to me (or at the very least certainly not unattracted to me).
The date went very well, we had a lot of things in common and we were also generally in the same place in our lives (mid-30′s, divorced, we both own homes, we lived geographically close to eachother), the only difference was that she had a child and I have none.
After I paid the check, we stayed and talked for another half-hour; she did not seem in a rush to leave and even said at the end, “so what do you wanna do?” Which sounded like, “I’m having fun and I’m not rushing out of here but it is getting late…”
At the end of the date, I decided I was going to not push my luck and that I would giver her a hug and a peck on the cheek. So when I went to do that she made a move to kiss me and actually started open-mouth kissing me and we wound up having a little make-out session. She then looked me in the eye and said, “I hope to see you again.”
So short story long…a couple of days later (after I called her and she told me she was busy and would call me back), she sends me a text that reads, Hi XXXX! I’m sorry I didn’t respond to you, I didn’t want to not get back to you but I also don’t want to waste ur time. I wish u the best of luck in ur search and I know you’ll find the right person. XOXO.”
Obviously I was dejected. I know I didn’t have much invested at this point and I know you’re not supposed to take it personal (which I don’t agree with because the reality is, it IS personal) but getting a date with a girl of that caliber doesn’t come around that often. I’de be lying if I said I still don’t think about her a lot (I’m obviously still writing about it 2 months later). I’ve dissected it every which way but I still can’t help but think that if we had enough chemistry to make out, why not explore it further with a second date? But I know that I’ve kissed girls that I never intended seeing again so who knows.
I remember her saying that she hates Match (who doesn’t?) and that she went out with a few guys and that they were all nice but not interesting. I’m sure I fell into the same category. Yet 2 months later, I still see her online so it’s very hard not to feel discarded and since then I’ve been so burned out on dating that I’ve actually decided to cancel my Match subscription and detox for a while.
I thought she might be out of my leaugue and it makes me sick to think that she may have been bored out of her mind the whole time. But then I said to myself, I’m tall (it seems everyone places a lot of importance on this), very fit, I make six figures, and I’m sociable, there’s a reason she went out with me in the first place.
Unfortunaltely for me, her options are limitless and she can shop till she drops. But I think that also makes it easy for her to reject quality guys. And even though my above-listed qualities are good, in my neck of the woods (Long Island, NY), I’m probably average.
I say this with all due modesty; I am usually the one to turn down a second date. It’s a real kick in the teeth when you find someone you’re legitimately excited about and the feeling isn’t mutual.
I have to say that even though I was highly attracted to her, I didn’t feel intense chemistry or sparks. Though as were were kissing, I did feel elated. But I didn’t feel a 10 in the chemistry dept. Mostly because it’s an online date and I am cautious by nature. But I think everyone has their definition of how much chemistry they need on a first date to go on a second and there’s nothing you can do to sway that.
Goldie 19
@ Michael #9, I will admit that I pre-screened like crazy before the first dates, just to save both of us valuable time, gas and dinner money. But once someone made it to the first date, 90% of the time I was okay with the second. And, on the first, I always made sure we both had a good time, so it’s not a total waste of an evening for us both – if all else fails, at least we’ll have had a relaxing coffee/dinner with a fun person. I’ve only encountered the “no chemistry” twice, as in, it felt like kissing a fish, and there were other issues in both cases as well. FTR, I felt pretty little chemistry with my current BF for the first few dates, and was dating somebody else at the same time where there was crazy chemistry. But the BF treated me infinitely better than the other guy (who was well-meaning, very nice but kinda flakey), hence he’s the BF. Believe me, I pay attention at least some of the time when I read Evan’s blog
Michael17 20
Goldie #19: I hope I didn’t sound like a jerk in my first reply. Anyway, nice!
Goldie 21
Aww thanks Michael, no you sounded fine
Michael17 22
hespeler #18: I’m going to take a stab at this. I don’t think she was bored during the date, I think she was genuinely attracted. But then when she went home and thought about it, she felt differently. (Key word being “felt”)
I do wonder if the way the date ended had something to do with it. She might have been hoping the night would have gone on somewhere else and she might have been disappointed you didn’t take the initiative in that regard. Even if going someplace else wasn’t an option… At the end of the date you didn’t seem that assertive. She initiated everything–the kiss to saying she wanted to see you again. Why didn’t you set up the second date then and there?
The women here are learning to date more with their heads as well as their emotions and so if they had a date as the one you described, they probably would have gone on a second date with you. Most of the women on Match and probably the girl you went out with, don’t date like that though. They go primarily by their feelings. And by not stepping up and showing leadership when the moment was there–even if you were to say “Hey, I had an awesome time. I do need to get up tomorrow early for work but I do want to see you again. What is your schedule like?” you lost the feeling.
(Aside: Which is why there is a thriving Men’s Community of guys–many of them are actually looking for a great girlfriend–who are trying to learn about “game”–acting in such a way that triggers the woman’s emotions so that she does want to see you again. I know a lot of woman hate “The Community” and the things that the guys there are trying to learn, but the truth is that many women actually date by their feelings, and many of the guys who would make the best boyfriends often struggle the most when it comes to triggering these feelings, and so they feel the need to learn “game”.)
Then again, there very well might have been something going on at her end that has nothing to do with you.
Again, this is my take!
Sharon 23
@hespeler
I’ve been one the other side of that situation a few times recently. Sometimes when I meet guys I have a great conversation with but I’m not feeling any chemistry I’ll make out with them to see if I can get anything going. If I still don’t have any reaction than I can safely say its a no-go situation.
Michael17 24
#22: “The women here are learning to date more with their heads as well as their emotions and so if they had a date as the one you described, they probably would have gone on a second date with you.”
I suspect they would anyway. I can’t speak for anyone else of course. I suspect that the women on here would take into consideration how you both got along, and all you have going for you, and would have been up to seeing you again. How soon after the date did you call?
amy 25
Hespeler, there’s no reason for you to feel anything profound for this woman. She knows she’s beautiful, she knows she’s got her pick, she’s out for a good time, she’s a flirt and a player and she likes sex. In other words, you didn’t move in for the kill, she wasn’t going to lead you every step, and in the intervening days she hooked up with someone else. She’s got a short attention span. You had a fun date and a makeout sesh, c’est tout. You didn’t miss a deep relationship here, just some potentially excellent sex.
Don’t assume the next woman’s looking for the same thing, btw.
amy 26
@sharon, unless you’re a bigtime googlestalker capable of doing pretty accurate research on your date, that strikes me as potentially dangerous. I wouldn’t if I were you.
Michelle 27
#18, Hespeler, I don’t think you did anything wrong. Sounds to me like you had a great observing ego, coaching yourself and paying attention to what the hell was going on, rather than just being in your head, only focused on you.
Who the hell knows what was going on with her, you’ll probably never know.
From what you described, sounds like you’re a GREAT guy and would be an awesome boyfriend. Trust me, it’s her huge loss for nothing going out with you again.
Henriette 28
@Amy26 I’m not harshing on you, just genuinely curious why you think it’s dangerous to kiss a guy at the end of a date to try to drum up some chemistry. And why would googlstalking make it safer…? Thx
Like Sharon23, I’ve acted like this woman on more than one occasion. Sometimes because it was because there were a few quality men in the picture and I was trying to pick the best one for me, so I went on dates with and kissed them all and then focused on the one who seemed like the best fit. And sometimes because I thought the guy was nice enough but I hoped that a good makeout would convince me that I wanted a second date; occasionally it would, more often it wouldn’t. And sometimes I’d have a wonderful time with a guy on a date but in the following days something he’d said really gnawed at me and I realised that I didn’t want to take our connection any further. You can’t know what’s going through this woman’s mind or heart, Hespeler. Just keep your heart open for a great woman who WILL reciprocate.
sharon 29
@ Amy
The blessing a curse of a city is the lack of privacy. I don’t back to a man’s house unless I’m expecting to get in between the sheets. So making out initially is relegated to the dark corner in the bar, The lonely seats in the movie theatre, the back of a cab… ect. So aside for a higher exposure to colds in winter I’m not too concerned.
@ Helene #11
I’m really been struggling with guilt when I date. I feel awful that I’m not attracted to the guy who’s obviously taken with me, then I feel like somehow I owe him another chance to impress me and then finally I feel guilty for wasting his time but it’s just not going to happen.
It’s exhausting, beating myself up so much. It makes me hesitant to go on dates when I’m unsure about his pictures profiles.
Goldie 30
@ Hespeler, you cannot know what happened. For all you know, next day after your date, she had to take her kid to the hospital and cannot date now, and her profile is still there because she’s in the hospital and too busy to take it down. Happened to me once, BTW, six-hour first date, amazing makeout session, he told me to keep my next weekend open and I didn’t hear from him again. Fast forward 4-5 months, I was deactivating my profile and getting off the sites and shot him a quick email to the tune of “it was a fun date, too bad it didn’t work out but thanks again for the good time”… He replied the next day telling me that in the week after our date, he’d had some major family problems (he’s a single dad, so I believe him.) Whatever made this woman pull the plug could be completely unrelated to you! Or maybe she is in fact a flake — maybe one day the voices in her head told her to keep dating you, and the next day same voices told her not to. In which case, you’re definitely better off!
To all, I found Hespeler’s comment interesting in that, at least from what we’re told, the woman behaved exactly the way Evan tells us to behave on the first date — there’s no doubt that she made him feel great. However, looks like this put her in a position where she couldn’t say no to him later without coming across as a player or a flake, precisely because she’d made him feel good on their first date. Thoughts?
Evan Marc Katz 31
Goldie, I rarely let questions in the comments section through – which is to say that Hespeler’s post shouldn’t have been printed at all. That said, you can do everything right on a date and your date may not like you. Doesn’t mean you should stop doing things right the next time around. To me, there’s very little downside to pulling away, showing disinterest or making your date feel bad. I liked to make every woman feel great while we were together – and if that meant that she wondered why I wasn’t interested, I would rather have that outcome. What’s the alternative? Make her feel intentionally like I’m not interested?
Michael17 32
Goldie #30:
Interesting comment! There is (to expand and add another perspective to what I wrote Hespeler) a lot of similarities between dating and interviewing. When you are interviewing, you are told to act like you want the job, and when you get the offer, that’s when you decide whether you really want it. Similarly, that is how a lot of people–not everyone and not even mostly everyone, but still a lot of people–approach dating. The act interested as well as interesting during the first meet when in fact they aren’t really sold.
I think Hespeler’s date was feeling it in the moment, but then something happened when she went home. That said, I still think another concept in sales applies to dating: Always Be Closing. She was giving Hespeler so many signals that he should have set up the next date then and there if it were logistically possible. He might have gotten the second date. At the very least, even if she cancelled, he would have more information to go by as far as what was happening on her end.
RE Evan’s advice and this woman–I think Even would recommend doing maybe 70% of what this woman did. In particular, I don’t think Evan would have recommended that the woman initiate a make-out session and tell the guy she hopes to see him again, if she weren’t really feeling it.
amy 33
@henriette: I’m a landlord, which is a good way of finding out that the way people initially represent themselves may have nothing whatsoever to do with how they generally behave. If you want your faith in humanity damaged, or tweaked severely, work in a field that involves background checks.
I don’t meet a guy without checking court and property records and doing a thorough googlestalk. If a guy’s honest, you’ll find out. If he’s been arrested repeatedly, you’ll also find out. If he’s married, you’ll find out. You’ll know if he has friends and have a sense of what kind of people his friends are, how he talks when he’s casual.
Leading a guy on sexually when you know little about him, and little about his past — not self-reported, but as the records go — is a dangerous game. You don’t know how he’ll take it or how he generally reacts to frustration. There are two people involved in the kiss, remember? It’s not just about you checking him out, you’re not at Macy’s. Enough women find out that a guy’s trouble only after they’ve been involved for months; there are reasons cities have domestic-violence shelters and hotlines, why there are such things as restraining orders, rape kits, and stalking-awareness classes. Don’t invite trouble by removing more screens, and don’t jump in like it’s nothing. For a lot of guys it’s not nothing.
helene 34
Hespeler
I hate to say it, but I think your date didn’t find you sexually assertive enough. When she said “so what do you wanna do?” She clearly wanted to continue the evening, but you didn’t take her up on it. You said she had been drinking wine out of your glass – that is a signal I sometimes use too, but ONLY if I’m strongly sexually attracted to a guy as I think its a very sensual, intimate thing to do and a clear “come-on” to a guy….. I generally WOULDN’T do it on a first date unless I was just looking for a hook-up.
So she drank from your glass, she indicated she wanted to extend the evening, she initiated the open-mouth kissing… and you STILL didn’t invite her back to your place??! What more did she have to do – strip in the street??!I realise that as a man you don’t want to ruin your chances by pushing things too fast if the woman’s not ready – but she clearly WAS ready! You have to be able to pick up on that too! Maybe she liked you so much she was throwing caution to the wind and wanted to have sex on the first date, maybe she ws just horny and just wanted to have sex, and there’s no way of knowing if you HAD had sex with her that things would have developed into a meaningful relationship, but I think she was put off (and possibly even insulted) by your lack of sexual leadership. When a woman goes as far as that on a first date and all she gets from a guy is “I’ll call you” then its a real downer. I once invited a guy back to my place on our third date and he never even put his arm round me, just sat on the sofa and chattered on about motorbikes – I felt mortified! Rejected just doesn’t even begin to cover it.
Anyway, we live and learn….
Ruby 35
Hespeler’s story is interesting to me because he’s being chided for not being assertive enough. However, if the genders were reversed and Hespeler was being the more sexually assertive one, and the woman didn’t take him up on anything that evening, but wanted to see him again, we’d be dissing the man as only being after sex. Well, perhaps his date was just looking for sex too, otherwise, wouldn’t she have been more open to seeing him again? After all, he did follow up again just a couple of days later.
I used to think that people on a subscription dating site would be more serious about being in a relationship because they were paying for the service, but I’ve met plenty of men who were just there to casually date. I’m sure some women are doing the same. It sounds like Hespeler and his date were not on the same page in that respect.
Nicole 36
@Ruby,
Good point.
@Hespeler, if you are looking for a real relationship and your date wanted a fling, there is nothing you can really do about that. It’s just like anything else. You wanted someone who either didn’t want you or who didn’t want what you wanted. It happens all of the time. And don’t get so caught up in a fantasy about what could have been just b/c you found her so attractive. You never knew her so you need to let it go.
Michael17 37
Ruby and Nicole:
I agree with helene. The roles of the genders in the courtship process aren’t the same. Men are about initiative, women are about receptivity. If a woman is that sexually receptive and we turn her down, she shuts down to us.
If you weren’t into a girl who did that, then the way you handled it was fine. But if you are into her and you want to see her again, then you better realize that she was putting herself out there for you.
I wonder if this girl felt rejected by you. At the very least, hespeler, you needed to set up the second date then and there.
Sometimes flings can turn to relationships by the way.
amy 38
@ evan – I think it is leading someone on to try and make them like you. And the alternative is not to show them how uninterested you are, but to be genuine. Pleasant, but genuine.
I feel your comment was detrimental to women, making them robots – phony, laughing, “sales” people hoping to just get someone to like them.
If you KNOW you don’t like your date and you have NO intention of seeing them again, DON’T be the clown, entertaining them just so they’ll like you.
Be nice, be pleasant, be open, but don’t mislead people.
hespeler 39
EMK – Firstly, let me apologize. It was not my intent to hijack this thread with my disappointing story. I figured it might be a good example to help underscore this particular blog, namely that if you put your best foot forward and make your date feel good, you may find people chomping at the bit to see you again. You can then begin to pick and choose who you spend time with as opposed to going out with someone just for the sake of well, going out. If you have some humility, you may find it difficult or exhausting turning people away (I have) but it’s certainly better than not ever getting to date two.
I’ve been in the shoes of the girl I described many times – I’ve politley declined second dates and didn’t lose any sleep over it as I expected this girl didn’t lose an ounce of sleep over me.
I’ll answer some of the other comments and I hope this will continue to add to the discussion rather than just make it about me and my story.
To the comment about liking the conversation but not feeling much chemistry and trying to manufacture some with a make-out. I think this helps illustrate what was mentioned earlier in the thread – women date by feel and men date with their heads. I will admit the kiss was not some of my best work. Not to make excuses but we were both chewing gum (she gave it to me), it was very cold out and we both had big coats on; it was not ideal conditions. I took all of that into account and I’m not sure she did or would have (if that was in fact the reason for the no-go).
As far as not establishing a second date right on the spot. It’s funny, a girl that I know who is also very attractive told me that I showed too much interest because I made it clear that I liked her (I told her being out with her that night was my pleasure, I held out her seat for her, etc.). She said that when dealing with a “10″, one needs to stand out by backing off the trigger a little bit. By not doing so, I was just another guy fawning all over her. Who knows?
As far as not being sexually assertive enough, I will say that I typically do not go into dates with that mindset as I am interested in a LTR. Further, she was my 3rd date (wasn’t interested in the first two)that week and I was also gently ending a 3-month relationship with a girl that was wonderful but just not for me. All this is to say that I was pretty strung out the night I went out on the date. It was all I could do to stay engaged and show her a good time. I decided to quit while I was ahead so to speak and live to fight another day.
I went in with the mindset that this was an online date (so I was meeting a stranger), that she was in her mid-30′s and has a child at home, so I went into it like a gentleman displaying restraint. Besides what I mentioned in my original post, there was no sexual innendo in the conversation at all. Further, her neighbor was watching her kid and I thought it might be presumptuous to ask her back to my place. I may have misread it, who knows?
I texted her when I got home that night telling her I had a really nice time and she never responded which I felt uneasy about. It also lead me to believe that her mind was made up as soon as she got in the car. I let a day go by without a response from her and the day after that I called her and she answered telling me she would call back as she was out with her daughter. Never got a call back and a day and a half later I received her text which essentially shut the door. At this point she could have just let it go and disappeared but she took the time to write back telling me she doesn’t want to waste my time. I took it as her telling me not to waste my time as she wasn’t interested but it could also have meant she didn’t want to waste my time becasue we were looking for different things. Who knows?
It could very well be that she likes going on first dates and getting attention but is having a hard time making up her mind on who she wants to date further. I saw her on Match a lot in the weeks following our date, to include Valentine’s Day so maybe she’s just very picky. Who knows?
This person may have very well turned out to be all wrong for me and I agree with the previous comment that it’s not worth getting caught up in a fantasy. But alas, fantasies are very strong and it’s not easy to let go…
Michael17 40
hespeler–
Yes, women date by feel. And when you didn’t take more initiative towards the end of the date despite all she did, she didn’t feel good.
I agree that being overeager is bad. But “being overeager” is showing a lot of interest in someone who hardly did anything to win you over–except for looking good. This woman *was* doing things to win you over. You didn’t really acknowledge that.
Yep, we live and learn…
Still-Looking 41
Hespeler -
We will spend the rest of our lives trying to figure women out (and women will do the same regarding men). You acted the way you felt was appropriate and she lost interest. You could have been more aggressive and then if she lost interest you’d be kicking yourself for misreading her signals. I’ve been in your shoes plenty of times and I’m sure plenty of women you have taken out have wondered why you didn’t call for a second date.
Quit obsessing (I know, I know, easier said than done) and move on. I learned my lesson the hard way and now find my dating life is much more enjoyable when I don’t pursue the 10s.
hespeler 42
Michael #40,
I am not completely disagreeing with you but if that was the case, I don’t see why she wouldn’t entertain the idea of a second date? I mean if anything, I would think she would be saying – who does this guy think he is, I’m sending him all these signals and he can take it or leave it? I think that would create more interest on her part. And I did send her that “feel good” text and called her subsequent to that. She knew I was calling because I was interested.
Either way, I made it completely obvious that I liked her. Even after she sent me the thanks but no thanks text I told her something along the lines of – “whoever winds up with you will be a lucky guy, sorry you feel that way, I had a very nice time with you the other night.” If she needs more than that, well then maybe we weren’t a match.
Also, remember that we are talking about two members of Match.com; the world of serial dating. I went into the date looking for a potential LTR. She might have just been checking out the scene. I did see her poking around on there for the last two months, probably wading through the 100 e-mails a day she gets. She can be picky if she wants to.
Michael #41,
You’re completely right. If I could just erase it from my memory I would but I guess it doesn’t work like that. The bad thing is that I genuinely thought that she was the most interesting (aside from her looks which were also exactly to my taste) Match date I’ve had, and I’ve had A LOT of Match dates. I hate to say it but I went on a couple of dates after her rejection and I stacked them up against her and of course, I wasn’t nearly as interested. No second date for those girls. I shouldn’t have even bothered as my heart wasn’t in it. That wasn’t fair to them.
I will admit, I think most guys would call her a 10 but I wasn’t “10 hunting” when I contacted her. She just happened to be very receptive right off the bat and I went with it. If she didn’t write back I would have just forgotten about her.
I’m moving on but I’m taking a break from dating for a little while. I’ve had some opportunities recently that I’ve passed up so I know I’m kind of burned out.
quinn 43
@Hespeler
If I were you I would contact her again. I have given a couple of men a second look because they came back later saying they would still like the chance to take me out. Can’t hurt, right?
Kenley 44
@43 Quinn
In this instance, I think it would be harmful for him to ask her out again. He’s semi-obsessed with her as it is. He has posted about his date with her on this blog a couple of times. He has admitted he can’t get her off is mind and is comparing other women to her..not good. He has been monitoring her activity on Match for at least 2 months….really not good.
After the date, this woman’s words and actions indicated that she was not interested in seeing him again. It’s over. For his own peace of mind, he needs to move on.
What I find most interesting about his post, is how supportive and sympathetic people have been — as if a really nice guy got burned by an overly picky, sex hungry siren. What I see, on the other hand, is a guy who is upset and confused because the woman he wanted had the nerve to “discard” him the way he admits he routinely discards the women he dates. I don’t think this is about a bruised heart; I think it’s about a bruised ego. Karma is a bitch.
hespeler 45
Quinn #43,
Really? That has been suggested to me by co-workers. It’s been over 2 months now. I’ve had to resist the urge to contact her. I just felt that her text has shut the door and she’s probably been on 10 dates since ours. If she was really interested, she wouldn’t have let me back in to the dating pool so easy. Also, if she is receptive, I would think it would be due to frustration or loneliness. I don’t want to be anyone’s stopgap.
Two things:
What would you suggest I say? And more importantly, of the guys you gave a second look to, has anything materialized, either casual or something more?
Ruby 46
hespeler #45
<<I hate to say it but I went on a couple of dates after her rejection and I stacked them up against her and of course, I wasn’t nearly as interested. No second date for those girls. I shouldn’t have even bothered as my heart wasn’t in it. That wasn’t fair to them>>
Has it occurred to you that maybe your date was doing the same thing with you? I’m in agreement with Kenley (#44). It’s one date, people! Time to move on.
Nicole 47
@Hespeler,
Don’t contact that woman again. She is not interested. As Evan already told you, a mature, polite adult is perfectly capable of being charming and nice to a date even if he/she doesn’t want a second one.
Not everyone is so offended by the idea of having to sit through dinner with someone that they never want to have sex with that they have to be rude or make it clear that you’ve been rejected.
You are reading too much into the fact that a charming lady that you found very attractive was nice to you. I don’t drink out of strangers glasses but plenty of people are okay with that. It is not a sign of love at first sight. Some people are flirty in daily life, and again, it can just be a personality type and not a sign of attraction. And as someone pointed out, unless you are rude and immature, you were probably nice enough to the women that you never wanted to see again either.
I would imagine that she kissed you to test the chemistry, b/c some people I think do believe that you need to do that to feel a “spark.”
Whether your want to see someone again or not, being nice and friendly is better than not, and most adults understand what if you don’t return their email/text/call then it is time to move on. She was not being receptive to your follow-up. You were right to contact her again once quickly to let her know of your interest, but after she blew you off, you needed to let it drop.
I’m sorry you were so disappointed by this fantasy woman, but you are reading too much into what she did. Plenty of people close dates saying “let’s do this again” or “I’d like to see you again” but a)sometimes they mean it, b)sometimes they do not, and c)sometimes they are not sure.
At any rate, few people are able to reject people to their face. It just seems too mean.
This whole thing is a big merry go round and eventually you’ll meet someone who is ready to hop off at the same time as you. Until then, there is no point in pining for someone who wants to continue the journey. I’m sure someone out there is lamenting the fact that you never called HER again, despite the lovely evening you enjoyed.
But you will DOOM all future dates by creating a fantasy picture of this lady and comparing everyone to her. She was charming, and you found your attractive, but she was clearly not your match.
But circling back around to the original post, it sounds like your date had this technique down pat…she had you probably acting like your best self, feeling comfortable and confident so she did at least achieve that goal of transforming you on the first date.
Goldie 48
As someone who’s BTDT, I have to reply to this, from Kenley’s post #44:
“What I find most interesting about his post, is how supportive and sympathetic people have been — as if a really nice guy got burned by an overly picky, sex hungry siren. What I see, on the other hand, is a guy who is upset and confused because the woman he wanted had the nerve to “discard” him the way he admits he routinely discards the women he dates. I don’t think this is about a bruised heart; I think it’s about a bruised ego. Karma is a bitch.”
First of all, show of hands, who here has not “discarded” at least one person they’d dated? We’d still be with our high school sweethearts if we hadn’t ever “discarded” anyone, amirite? Since we’re not, I figure we aren’t in a position to cast stones here. Moving on…
Yeah, being led on and then dropped like a hot potato hurts. I don’t care if it’s a bruised heart, a bruised ego, or if, as in my case, I’d gotten so many mixed messages that I was confused out of my mind (finding out that he’d probably had a GF all along, and that he’d spent the night at her place right after his date with me, and two days before his next date with me, didn’t help things either!!) — going from being told that the other person is interested, to being told that he/she isn’t and never was, is still painful. So let’s give the guy a break here.
Which leads me to my next point, @Hespeler #39:
“Further, her neighbor was watching her kid and I thought it might be presumptuous to ask her back to my place. I may have misread it, who knows?”
Are you kidding me? Do you think it would’ve felt better if she’d dropped you after sex, rather than before? not from my experience, it wouldn’t! Looks like she gave you a fairly clean break, which is more than what I got from the person I’ve been referring to. Consider yourself lucky and please don’t second-guess yourself. It really does sound that there’s no way you could’ve gotten a second date from this person.
“I did see her poking around on there for the last two months, probably wading through the 100 e-mails a day she gets. “
FWIW, Match is a royal mess in this regard, showing people as active when they’re not. It showed me as active two months after I got off it and canceled my subscription — I found out by accident when someone I’d dated a few months prior, got a link to my profile in an email of his “daily matches”, and warned me. She may or may not be “poking around there”, she may be off the site and in a relationship for all we know. Not that it changes anything… I agree with the rest on here that you still need to move on and pretend she never existed.
I’ve got to say it’s easier to be a woman than a man in Hespeler’s situation. All I did was update my OKC profile to add two lines at the very end, saying “I’m just out of a bad breakup, and am not up for anything serious right now” (or something of that nature)… I then proceeded to have probably the best three months of my life since college. (Nothing too wild, just had a lot of fun and made very cool new friends.) If a guy tries to put the same statement on his profile, he’ll probably get the opposite results… life isn’t fair.
Evan Marc Katz 49
Yes, Nicole!
hespeler 50
Goldie #48,
Thanks. Much appreciated. Fact is I went through a pretty difficult divorce and even though it was only one date, I’m a bit hyper-sensitive to having a 180 done on me.
Nicole #47,
I agree with every word you said and of course the most rational part of me knows this and knew it from the start. I don’t plan on contacting her again and if I ever ran into her in public, I’d politley say hi and leave it at that.
Kenley #44,
I haven’t been monitoring her activity; I’ve just seen her on as I was scrolling through is all.
Karma is certainly a bitch. Everything I’ve done in my dating life has inevtibaly come back to bite me 10 times over so this is pretty much par for the course.
I’ll also add that I’m not looking for sympathy and I assure you this is not about a bruised ego. I’ve been fed soo much humble pie in the last few years I probably couldn’t fit anymore in. I’ve been rejected before by a few women who I found highly attractive but I forgot about them in a few days because I knew that it would not have worked (I was just interested in them physically). This last one was potential GF material (potentially – I’ll never know for sure). Moreover, I am kind of picky, not from an ego standpoint. Believe me, I beat myself up over my pickiness. So it’s pretty damn frustrating to come so close to a potential opportunity only to have it slip through your fingers.
As an attractive women, she could have lined up 20 dates for the rest of the week without much of a problem. I could tell from the tone of her rejection that this was no big deal to her whatsoever. She almost made it look as if it was good news. But I knew that going back to the drawing board would mean sending out tons of e-mails and maybe getting one back that I was remotely interested in. And just as I knew it would, I hit a cold streak in the weeks following which just compounded the problem.
I was aggravated with online dating before this date so this just really pushed me over the edge. I just need to take a break from it for a while.
Believe me, I tell myself EVERYDAY how ridiculous it is to think about a woman who hasn’t given you a second thought since she discarded you. Easier said than done.
I will say though, I’m no prude but if you take the time to meet someone online, talk to them on the phone, meet them and have a few drinks, and kiss them. That to me is a sign of intimacy. Yes I have done it too. Though it was mostly me obliging the women (I say this with all due humility). I guess it may be a fundamental difference between men and women. I don’t need to kiss a girl to know if there’s chemistry. I kiss a girl because there is chemistry.
hespeler 51
Nicole #47,
Your merry go round comment is very poignant. Going back to the original blog post, I think it’s best to do your best on every date and be hopeful there is some chemistry and both perople are looking to get off the merry-go-round.
I was once told of the acronym: ACT which stands for Attraction, Chemistry, and Timing and I think most relationships start when all three are present.
Ria 52
Funny, how when tables are turned, all of a sudden, even the most experienced in dating and opposite sex completely turn the other way around. Karma is a bitch, yet again, ld say its life and this happens to the best of us.
The only thing l could say to this man is that – and it sounds really cliche´- cutting off dating completely isnt gonna be the answer either, cos guess what – you sit at home, burned and miserable, thinking of your Goddess, (asking us – should l text her- and we say no-) where does that lead you? You are being in the point of no progress, and belive me, time in this case is a bad healer.
The prospects of dating may seem very bad now, because obiously that lady has set the limits of women so high that most of the females would fail miserably in the scale of Goddess versus Ordinary, but l think what stops the action most, is the thought that there is noone out there like her, and as the idea of settleing is absolutely no-go, so why bother. Let us watch a footy and crab a beer.
Wrong thinking!
Having said all that, there is still one thing l could suggest to do with this woman, which may bring some clarification, but since this is Evan´s blog and he gives advices, lm not gonna say a thing:) You need to figure it out yourself, H.
hespeler 53
Ria #52,
I’ve thought about it but it’s been 2 months now. If I reached out to her for clarification it would look pretty weird. I rather keep my dignity in tact.
Funny thing is, I politely declined a second date from a girl at the very same time I was getting rejected. The difference is she pressed for an answer. I lied and told her that I was seeing someone else and wanted to see where it would go to spare her feelings. I would imagine if I reached out to this girl now, she would placate me or just ignore me making me feel worse. Furthermore, if she does tell the truth, I might either love (I’m crazy and am afraid of getting involved with someone right now) or hate (I don’t date guys with receding hairlines) her answer. I rather just leave it alone at this point.
With respect to your other point about continuing to date, you may have a point. The thing is, I am tired of going on dates where I only have a mild interest. Getting dates with women I have a strong interest in happens few and far between. That said, I am in communication with a girl I happen to find very attractive and interesting as well even though her age is a bit older than I would like. The thing is, lately, when I ask for a girls number, she disappears even though I’m not doing anything different than I have been all along. Alright well maybe I’ve become a little more impatient with the whole process. I mean, if we’re just supposed to size each other up when we meet, why bother with drawn out e-mail correspondence. But I’ll play the game and see where it goes…
Michael17 54
I already said my peace about Hespeler needing to step up more when she was giving him so many signals, and I stick by that viewpoint. That said, I think several of you in the meanwhile are being too hard on Hespeler.
This girl has been on H’s mind a lot. So what. We have all gotten hung up on that one special person. And in the meanwhile, H hasn’t hurt anyone. So I don’t agree with some of you, in that I do not think H is some semi-obsessed weirdo–by any stretch.
And all of us have passed up on other people who were very nice because for whatever reason–even due to something going on on our end, we just weren’t feeling it. So no, from what I have read so far, I do NOT think karma owed H a slap in the face.
What was H supposed to do in the meanwhile? Not try to meet anyone else, and just stay home and mope instead? Just as you women have the right to go on dates with other guys when the man you really want to be with isn’t available to you, so does H.
That East Asian Man 55
Dear Evan. Your blog post reminds me of a passage from Duke Robinson’s wonderful book, Good Intentions: The Nine Unconscious Mistakes of Nice People (emphasis in the original):
“[P]ractice accepting everyone you know and everyone you meet. In other words, you would not require people to pass any sort of test before you’re willing to [accept] them. You would practice unconditional love.
“A primary purpose of the experiment would be to see if unconditional acceptance will liberate others from trying to please you all the time and thereby bring authenticity to your relationships. … It’s also important to note that you would not immediately be accepting people to please them or get them to like you. That’s the old trap … So you would not let anyone walk on you. …
“I’m betting you’ll experience the irresistible paradox everyone finds who tries it: Do something for people they don’t deserve and withhold judgment they do deserve, and you enrich yourself. In other words, love them as they are for their benefit, and the one who gets the most out of it is you.
“Another side benefit of this experiment is that your acceptance can enable people to be positive and loving toward themselves and others, including, and especially, you. Not everyone will be immediately changed. But love always has been contagious. In a mysterious yet preditable fashion, it reproduces itself, radically transforming people, bringing out the best in them and moving them toward healthy relationships and wholeness.”
Ria 56
@H – One thing that most of the dating coaches (esp.Evan) points out is that dating isn´t a rose garden. Its far from perfection – you meet, you get disapointed, rejected, chased down, you need to do a lot of diplomatic debate (if someone asks you question WHY), white lies, explanations, calls, drinks, dinners, clothing up, internet research, you get ignored and then you meet individuals, that make you think OMG…man, its a hard work!! l would rather hire an assistant or ask my family to get me arranged.
But the thing is – if you dont give up, the effort eventually pays off. I can bet on that one. The more picky you are, (and picky is good, btw) the more you should not give up.
Regarding to non answered calls, by women after you have asked and called, there could be many reasons, but these days women get more and more -educated- in terms of dating and paying attention to how they feel. And they act a little bit like a man. If they dont feel it, they just drop it. Maybe the reason they do this is also that they pick something up about you (this guy is bad news, cos he is still in love with his ex, maybe?). Dont underestimate this, women are very intuitive, esp. ones with dating experiences.
justme 57
That East Asian Man: @55.
Liked your quotes so much just went and ordered the book. Hope I like it as well.
Thanks
hespeler 58
Michael17 #54,
Thank you. I’m actually not a weirdo at all. I’ve been dating for the last 3 years and she was the first girl that I genuinely felt excited and interesting about since my divorce. Prior to that, I’ve gone on a lot of dates with girls that I was lukewarm about and some that I went out with a few times which just confirmed my initial feeling. Sprinkle in a couple of 3-4 month relationships with girls that didn’t work out, one because of distance, the other I forced because she was so nice but I just wasn’t attracted to her and I was about ready to get off the merry go round. Also, as I mentioned I got hit with my fair share of karma through all of my dating and I felt I had a little equity and that maybe it was just my time to get a break. I’m a pragmatist and I understand finding someone is work but I allowed the romantic in me to come out a little bit and think that maybe it was my time. And wouldn’t you know it, the one I actually like doesn’t like me back. It just seems as though if I have any interest, then it’s a foregone conclusion she won’t want to see me again (an no I’m not doing anything different around the ones I like).
I tend to side with the folks that are saying she probably just wasn’t that into me but if you’re hypothesis is correct than I definitely missed out on a lot of fun…
Also, I have to admit after giving it some thought, it has been a blow to my ego and self-esteem. You start to wonder if you’re able to attract the type of people you want. It seems as though (and I’m sure others have felt this too) that I’m just good looking and interesting enough to get a date here and there with beautiful, smart, interesting women but not good looking or interesting enough to keep them interested.
I guess I just felt that we had some chemistry (maybe not the type of chemistry you see in the movies) and it would have been great to explore it a little more on a second date, I wasn’t looking to marry this girl or anything like that. It takes two to tango though.
Ria #56,
Dating is tough no doubt. You have to keep trying to have fun through it all which is a challenge in itself.
I remember her saying that she thinks that Match is awkward and how she met a lot of nice guys but found them uninteresting. Also how she gets bomarded with e-mails. I actually thought by breaking through and getting a date with her relatively easy, that I was a person she had a high degree of interest in. I’ll know better the next time I’m dealing with an in-demand woman that I’m just a number and will try not to get my hopes too high. Kinda sucks to go into like that though.
Ria 59
H, next time you spot on a woman you really like, l suggest you not to go for “I’ll know better the next time I’m dealing with an in-demand woman that I’m just a number and will try not to get my hopes too high.” mode, because first – its a funkiller to have some preconceptional stamp ideas like this, second not all *goddess* women think alike, although they get a lot of att.yes, and third, no its not like they sit at the computer and count the number like stockraise. If they like someone, they like someone, because their self esteem does not depend of the high number emails they get, but the quality what is in the emails.
You seem to be very interesting to talk to and intelligent, hence you got the date with her that easily and l belive she enjoyed the date.
helene 60
Hespeler
You said “ I’ll know better the next time I’m dealing with an in-demand woman that I’m just a number and will try not to get my hopes too high.”
I really think you’re going down the wrong track here. From what you’ve said, there is nothing to indicate that you are not interesting enough or good looking enough for this type of woman – on the contrary, I get the impression that you have all that stuff in place. But you’re not capitalising on your potential. Ita your assertiveness and manly behaviour that are holding you back, not your conversation or looks. The type of woman you are attracted to - from your descriptions of this particular woman – is not shy, insecure or timid. You need to outdo her in confidence and attitude, so you need to INCREASE your self confidence and talk your self up in your own mind, not lower your hopes and think “I’m just a number to her.” This woman, when she agrees to go on a date with you, is not thinking “oh well, I think I’ll sign up for another so-so evening with a nice guy who’s not very interesting….” She’s hoping, just HOPING that you will be the one who sweeps her off her feet, who stands out from the crowd with his charisma, self assurance and manliness.
Be that man. Women like her are desperately looking for you.
hespeler 61
Ria and Helene,
Good stuff! That really struck a chord. This woman was not shy but I did sense a reserve about her that just said, “lead and I will follow.” I’m not saying I would have got a second date but I do now believe that if I were a little more assertive I MAY have had a better chance. I have to say I can be that guy. I guess I just have become tired of the online dating scene and I started to go on these date like I was on auto-pilot.
I recall when she said she gets all of these e-mails that my humility came out and I said, “I guess I should be flattered then that I’m on a date with you.” It wasn’t from a lack of confidence, just humility, but I can see how that can come across as non-assertive or not confident.
I will say though, I’m not sure what more I can do on a first (online) date which is really just a getting to know the other person session. It’s not like I was awkward or anti-social throughout the date.
I have to laugh at all of the girls that write, “I’m looking for a guy to sweep me off my feet.” On a first meeting with a stranger? Look I know that sounds defeatist and unromantic but if the guy is good-looking, playful, and intelligent, what more do you want?
helene 62
What more? well, here’s a real-life example…
I went on an online date a few years ago. Guy hadn’t turned up, so I went outside for a cigarette. There was a guy outside at the next table to mine – handsome, mid 40s, cool looking – and as tends to happen among smokers, we got chatting. My date still failed to turn up( he never appeared at all!) . I really like the look of smoker guy, but didn’t want to presume anything, so after a bit I said “I think I’ll go back inside.” He followed me in, bought me a drink. We chatted and really clicked. he bought me another drink. About 10 pm I said i really had to get going as I was going away early the next day for easter. He asked me to stay, to go to another bar with him. I went, he bought me another drink, we chatted and laughed for a bit longer – it was all great. After a bit I again said I had to go. He asked for my number, then kissed me passionately before I left, and whispered ” I’ve been wanting to do that all evening”. Then this gorgeous, intelligent, cool guy ran out wildly into the street to flag down a taxi for me. Checked when I was coming back into town – I said monday. “Are you free to go out monday?” he asked. I said I was. “good, I’ll call you.” He kissed me again, and then I left.
Now THAT was being swept off your feet – the kiss, the whispering, the taxi thing… I went home feeling I’d started the perfect romance with the perfect first date.
Weirdly enough, I never heard from him again - one of the biggest let-downs of my life – but I have NEVER stopped thinking about him. If he HAD called I would DEFINATELY have gone out with him again.
So, hespeler, something like THAT – but with follow through - that is “what more do you want”. Hope this helps.
hespeler 63
helene,
It helps. Though I am now kicking myself…
justme 64
Hespeler
I know it has been said but LET IT GO!. If you had gotten two dates, you might have found the deal breaker and walked. But because of the intriguing first date and nothing else, she has become this mystery of what might have been great. The only person who knows why she seemed to lose interest is her.
But she has her flaws. And the biggest thing I think is Why waste time thinking about someone who wasn’t interested in you? There will be others who are interested.
justme 65
Sorry if that sounded mean. I have been where you are, thinking about some guy who we had a great date or even two and then he isn’t interested and I’m left wondering why. The truth is – it doesn’t matter why. It’s just time to move on.
hespeler 66
I know I know. I’m under no false pretense that she was my match or anything because if she was I would expect I’d still be seeing her. I just seem to be caught in a catch 22 right now. I would like to date someone else but she has seemed to set the bar pretty high and I haven’t found anyone since that I have found interesting enough to date (at least that will write back to me) so it’s just kind of forces me to think about the last one.
It’s not easy for a guy to stand out. If I were able to go online and just meet someone interesting right away then I would have forgotten about this a long time ago. I’m in the same position most guys are in online; I get e-mails fromn the ones I’m not interested in and get ignored by the ones I do find interesting (except every now and then when one actually writes back and follows through).
Tao Of Badass 67
@65
I 100% agree. Why waste your time with someone who is too much of a coward to truly state their intent. If you don’t enjoy my company then let me know. I will have more respect for that person for speaking the truth.
Ria 68
@67 – imagine the situation when you meet someone and conversation goes in light manner, nice, polite, wine, dine and then one of you stands up from the chair and states, that “oh well, l actually feel like l should go home, because l dont enjoy your compnay that much.”
In real life, not gonna happen, because most of us still try to maintain decent politeness or just enjoy the moment. That is why most of the guys (and girls) get “lost” after a promising a nice date, which may lead an impression that there could be more.
Having said all that, l am not actually arguing you, instead l second you full time.
The real truth is that there could be gazillion reasons, why someone don´t want someone, and figuring THAT out is a lot work, because we never get the answer and most probably the answer is just as simple - l don´t simply like you THAT much and there is nothing you can do about it –
Time to move on EVEN if your heart/mind and soul does not cooperate at that point but right desicions aren´t ment to be as easy at the beginning.
hespeler 69
Ria 67,
I agree. I’ve charmed woman who I had no intention of seeing again because, well, it’s the right thing to do in the moment.
The only thing that has made this one tougher to swallow than others (other than the fact that I found her to be georgeous) is that she was much more flirty throughout and kissed me. Again I’m no prude and I understand that sometimes woman kiss to test chemistry (I find that ridiculous but I’m not a woman), but in my dating experience, which is a fair amount, virtually every date that resulted in a kiss guaranteed I was getting a second. But I guess I just ran into one that didn’t put as much weight into the kiss as I did, simple as that.
In the end my ego is in fact bruised but I don’t feel THAT bad as she indicated in sum and substance that she has found a lot of guys uninteresting. I kind of met the female version of me.
Interestingly, I had a friend over the other night and he joked if I was still worked up “over that chick from a couple of months ago?” Little did he know…anyways, he saw her Match picture and while he thought she was attractive, he did not find her hot at all. Here I am putting her on a pedestal and he’s just not that into her…
Ria 70
OK, this will be final comment on this thread.
lm giggleing on the inside re: your friend, H. Im sure he finds her attractive (should he meet her in person) and saying that he is not that into her (without meeting her in person) is probably not 100% objective.
However, on the other hand it should show the example, that what one might find attractive, another might not, which should be also a proof, that there is still light in the end of tunnel to meet new people (and be surprised in a positive way).
Have you seen a movie 500 days of Summer? Watch it, if not.
(Women test to see if there is a chemistry?? We don´t need to test it, if it is there:)
Good weekend.
Ruby 71
I’ve never had to kiss someone as a “test” to see if there is chemistry, although maybe people who are big flirts do that. To me, you kiss someone because you feel already attracted to them. But a really bad kisser can affect the attraction I’m feeling in a negative way.
K 72
@69 Before online dating every time someone kissed me on a date it meant we went on a second date. I didn’t date as frequently back then and perhaps they didn’t either. We usually had some sort of build up, i.e. friends set us up or we met in a bar. Post online dating world, I have been kissed by several guys that I never heard from again. Maybe they got caught up in the moment, maybe they thought I was hot, but not their type in other ways who knows. Generally I do not kiss someone I don’t plan on seeing again. I have kissed someone once because I hadn’t been on a date in awhile and I was just excited that it was a normal fun date. However, later feeling much more sober I recalled the details of the date and knew he wasn’t really my type. I also have kissed a really nice guy once because I wanted to like him. He was great in many ways, but I didn’t feel an attraction and thought okay if he goes for it I’ll kiss him back you never know. I didn’t enjoy it. So it happens. But I never kiss someone if I definitely don’t want to and definitely think I never want to see them again. By the way I am the kind of person who will drink out of my dates glass. That doesn’t mean I’m totally into them. It just means I’m comfortable with them at that moment.