How You Misunderstand Your Dates and How It Backfires
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Did you ever wonder after a date why he didn’t call back?
Did you ever think you had a great time, but were shocked to discover that he didn’t feel the chemistry?
It’s really common – for both men and women – but if you’ve never bothered to put yourself in the shoes of the opposite sex, you may be killing your chances to find love.
Translating men to women is what I do best.
Your perspective on sex is way different than his perspective – and how neither of them is wrong!
Women want the potential for love. Men want the potential for sex.
Each time you go on a date, you have an agenda. You may not be conscious of it, but every man you meet causes you to ask these questions:
Is he polite to the waiter?
Does he reach for the check instantly?
Does he talk positively about other women?
Is he pressuring me for physical contact?
Does he want to learn more about me?
Is he looking for a long-term relationship?
Does he have good values and will he fit in my world?
None of these are “bad” questions. But, if you add them all up, what you’re doing is tantamount to acting like a detective. You’re trying to figure out, in 90 minutes, whether this stranger is potentially husband-worthy.
That’s a lot of pressure to put on yourself (and him) on a first date. You’re picking up on every subtle clue and extrapolating it to a greater meaning.
So if he talks about his crazy ex, you may conclude that he’s hung up on her or is a misogynist with baggage.
Or if he talks about himself too much, you conclude he’s a narcissist who’s not interested in you.
Or if he seems interested in you physically, you conclude that he’s disrespectful and wants only one thing.
These are all possible conclusions you can draw, but they are, by no means, the only conclusions. In fact, they’re probably incorrect.
A man who talks about his crazy ex may be a great guy – with a really crazy ex and some good stories to tell. If he has bitter feelings, he may be entirely justified in having them. His only crime is in not knowing how he comes across on the date.
A man who goes on and on about himself may be extremely interested in you, and extremely nervous that he’s not going to impress you. So he tells you as many things as he can to “impress” you, so he’ll have a chance of getting a second date. You think he’s selfish. He may just be insecure.
Finally, a man who tries to kiss you at the end of the first date is also known as a “man”. That’s right. Men who are attracted to you want to kiss you. It’s not a crime, it’s not a flaw, and it’s not inherently inappropriate. Sure, a kiss after 3 minutes at Starbucks is pretty weird, but following dinner, drinks, and a car ride home, a good night kiss is standard behavior for a man who’s attracted to you.
I share this with you because you may feel that men are supposed to do things YOUR way.
He should just KNOW that he shouldn’t talk about his ex.
He should just KNOW that he should ask you questions.
He should just KNOW that you’re uncomfortable kissing on the first date.
As one of those clueless men who have done ALL of those things – I hate to remind you what you already know about men: we’re not mind readers. We’re not perfect. We do what comes naturally to us, not necessarily what comes naturally to YOU.
Theoretically, we can do everything perfectly right on a date – check off 20 for 20 on your scorecard – and then be dismissed for trying to kiss you. And if every little misguided action can set you off, it becomes really hard to make a good first impression.
Which is why I wanted to remind you of an insight I had about men’s and women’s first date agendas:
Women want the potential for love. Men want the potential for sex.
This is a fundamental difference between us and I think it’s important to know that I’m not blaming you for trying to figure out where things are going.
Since you want the potential for love, you give your first dates the tightest screening outside of airport security – and dissect everything he says to determine if he has long-term relationship potential.
Alas, while your heart is in the right place, your efforts are premature – and they usually backfire. Men don’t like to be dissected.
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56 Comments »Filed Under Dating
nathan 1
Hmm, I don’t know about other men on this one, but I have to say that “the potential for sex” isn’t the only thing on my mind when I’m out dating. Or even the first thing. I certainly want it to be part of the equation, but when I’m on a date, I’m looking for long term potential. Love and commitment potential.
I totally agree with Evan, though, about the kiss after the date issue. I’ve been burned on both ends of that one. Not going in for the kiss has meant I “wasn’t interested.” And going in for the kiss has meant I was “too forward.”
Now, I can imagine there will be some comments about the guy who talks about his “crazy ex.” And to be honest, when I have had dates bring up crazy exs on a first date, a flag goes up. I pay closer attention to see how much negativity and emotional hang up seems to be attached to the story. I’d expect any woman I’m on a date with to do the same. To pay closer attention. Which is different from “He brought up the ex, I’m out of here.”
Overall, I think Evan is trying to point out that it’s really easy to find something to dismiss a date with. Because you don’t know each other, and are bound to do something or say something over the course of a first date that makes the other person confused, skeptical, or uneasy.
BC 2
This was an interesting post, Evan, and I can see where you are coming from with all of the insights, but I also tend to think, like Nathan said, not ALL men are viewing the first few dates predominantly in terms of *the potential for sex* any more that I, as a woman, am looking for long tern relationship potential and seriousness!
Also, speaking entirely for myself here, and not putting my feelings onto anyone else merely as a gender thing…the first time a guy I’ve been dating for just a few weeks mentions kids, I’m outta there. Seriously. I once dated someone who I felt a real connection with, not just physically, but also, we just had a blast hanging out together. However, I am not the typical woman wanting marriage and children, never have, never will…marriage, maybe, children, never. So…it spooked me, and ended what was otherwise a very promising relationship. You know, I still miss that guy in some ways, but that he desired children possibly 5 years or so down the line, and I didn’t, was definitely something better to know sooner rather than later. Sure, we are all sizing up certain character, personality and physical attributes on the first date, but I don’t think the agendas are as clear cut as we assume them to be for either involved.
Ruby 3
If a man brings up his ex on a first date in a casual way, it’s not an issue for me. But I’m sorry, EMK, if you say your ex was crazy on the first date, it’s going to raise a red flag. If you’re a sane, emotionally healthy person, why would you choose someone crazy as a long-term or life partner? Even if your ex did turn out to be crazy, why divulge that on a first date? I don’t have a checklist when I go out with someone, but yes, things like politeness towards the waiter are things I am looking at on a first date. I might not disqualify a guy immediately, but I will be looking at the way he treats others and the way he treats me.
A kiss at the end of a first date? No worries if I’m into the guy, But recently, I had a first date with someone who, as we were saying goodnight, grabbed me and pulled off a busy street so he could French-kiss and push his hard-on up against me. Too much information!
I’ve gone out with too many men who didn’t seem to think about their behavior on the date very much, but still expected me to like them in the end. I have dated enough guys (albeit they are in the minority) who did think about their behavior, and about how to be considerate, to know that they do exist.
Angie 4
I once read a dating blog for men, once, and it brought up the issue of kissing on a first date with this rule of thumb:
) and Guy #2 is capable of long-term commitment.
If the female (hey, ME) is interested in a kiss, she will have touched the guy during the date, be it tapping him on the shoulder, leaning against him, etc. It’s conveying the message, I am physically interested in you, and a little good night kiss is ok. I found this to be… fairly accurate, watching myself on dates. Not that I am looking for a kiss, but all the guys I wouldn’t mind kissing I am not pulling back from.
Regarding the crazy ex scenario… first date? I agree that while maybe at some point in the history of forever, we have all gone out with a crazy person (whether it was for 2 months or 2 years…), but I agree Nathan #1: If you are still hung up on an ex (be it that you are still in love with them OR still hate them), you are probably not be relationship ready.
I went out with two guys recently who had exes come up in conversation on the first date, but naturally. One said he knew my college (despite the fact we are in a city 2000 miles away). How? His ex went there. Another said he decided to move when he and his ex (who he had been w/ what I can figure about 6 years – he was only 24 at the time of breakup) were ending and that being single let him try moving to a new city he was always interested in, and then he said “…and let’s not go there tonight”. That was all they said, and all I got from these ex mentions were Guy #1 dates smart girls (kidding
I actually don’t mind if a guy lets his guard down a little. It makes me feel someone is being honest, and I can choose whether or not we click or whether or not this guy is all an act. I recently went out with a guy a few times who was “doing everything right”, but I felt like he was doing it to impress me. I still don’t know why, but he was a little too perfect and too put-on that it made me uncomfortable.
Sandy 5
re: The Difference – Men vs.Women
Hey! Women want the potential for sex, too.
Most of us, at a certain age, realize that sex is inclusive in a loving relationship, and that the potential for a relationship’s ability to survive cannot be assessed at the end of any first date.(Unless it’s obvious that the two of us will never get along. In which case, hopefully we’ve also learned by a certain age will rarely happen – a we’ve also developed a reasonable way to screen the absolutely impossible guys?)
But, I think that the difference is that women ask if we are attracted to him, specifically, and we take longer to process. Whereas men may not be so ready to discount the immediate possibility , as they are more apt to react to the possibility of having sex (fun) with any attractive female who happens to be on the date. ”If you can’t be witht he one you love.. love the one you’re with.”
So, given that men are wired like microwaves and women are wired like slow bake ovens …. we will continue to experience either meetings of the moment (sexual flings) or several to many meetings (a relationship) to experience meetings of the minds, hearts and souls, (or whatever else) binds us.
Honey 6
When I was primarily using Match to find dates, I found that they were almost all way more interested in mining me for LTR relationship potential, whereas I either slept with them on the first or second date, or not at all, and rarely went on more than 3 dates with one person.
I did also sleep with my husband Jake on our first date as well, but I knew about halfway through our date that he was, if not the one, then different than anyone else. Perhaps because he didn’t seem to be mining me for long-term potential? I was his first date after getting out of a four-year relationship and supposed to be the rebound
Ruby 7
You can screen before a date, but there is no way to really know certain things until you’ve physically been with someone on an actual date. I am finding that even some men I encounter on-line want to meet right away without even having a phone conversation. I met the fast-mover guy in person, and there wasn’t much opportunity to screen him before he asked me out.
A man will sleep with a woman even if he’s not all that attracted to her or doesn’t see her as relationship material. Also, women are the ones who are more likely to take their time assessing chemistry, whereas if a man is interested in an LTR and isn’t very attracted to a woman right away, he’s not likely to stick around.
Michael17 8
I agree with the basic premise that a lot of women have all these crazy hoops and rules that they want men to jump through. I would also add that women are in general the ones who make dating hard. They tend to go into a first date with their guard up much higher than men do, and THEN they expect the guy to wow them and have them feel “chemistry” even with her guard up so high. Men’s expectations aren’t nearly as high as women’s. As long as you’re cute and seem into us and don’t grill us, there’s a good chance we’d be up to seeing you again. I also feel the need to comment on some things, as I am sure there are guys reading your blog hoping to glean some pointers.
I found that it is actually a *good* thing to bring up an ex, but do it carefully. When I talk about where I lived, I bring up that I lived in New Jersey, where “at the time I was with the girl I thought that I would marry, but that didn’t work out. We didn’t of course and while it was tough getting over her, you know, life goes on and now I wish her well and I can see why we didn’t work”. Something like that but I say it differently each time, because I don’t want it to sound rehearsed or anything. Now you come across as a real person.
I’m NOT advocating that a guy complain about his exes, or his life in general. This isn’t a therapy session. In general though, a guy has to disclose some things about himself beyond (instead of?) facts about what he does for his career, his “exciting” hobbies, the “really cool” places he’s been to. (He ALSO has to do more than that and ask her those questions about herself.) He has to flesh himself as a real person with imperfections. OR the woman will walk away at the end of the night thinking it was impressive and the guy was “nice” but there is no second date.
Sherell 9
I don’t ask questions but rather judge the person. who knows if the answers you get are true anyway!
nathan 10
“Also, women are the ones who are more likely to take their time assessing chemistry, whereas if a man is interested in an LTR and isn’t very attracted to a woman right away, he’s not likely to stick around.” Ruby, I have had numerous women disappear after a single date. Some with zero response to follow up calls or e-mails. I have heard the “there’s not enough chemistry line” more times than I can count after a single date. And I say this as a man who has a decent amount of dating success, including three relationships that lasted (1-3 yrs+) I think in today’s dating scene, both men and women are screening fast and furious, and probably missing out as a result.
Oh, and honestly, after however many dates I have been on through online dating over the years (it’s well over 100 now), I don’t know if it matters all that much if you talk on the phone first, or send several e-mails back and forth. Some people come off well in writing, but are totally different in person. Some people are lousy phone conversationalists (I’d place myself in that category with strangers), while others are smooth as butter over the phone. And the longer I’ve waited to meet someone, and the more information I’ve gathered about them, the harder it has been to let go of the stories I have built up about who this person is before even having met them. I guess my experience has been that some screening is totally helpful, but beyond that, the returns seem to diminish greatly.
Nicole 11
@Nathan,
I agree with you about prolonging the conversation and the diminishing returns of long term screening. I say screen enough to feel comfortable, but yeah, it can totally build up a fake picture of a person, more importantly, it creates a false sense of a connection being there. Maybe it’s a bit sexist, but I really don’t understand when men do it, since I assume they feel less concern for personal safety. But you can learn a lot about someone and have great conversations, but if that person isn’t interested after the first meeting, it feels a bit abrupt when they never contact you again.
I liken it to almost a fake friendship that feels real and then you get dumped without warning. If it makes any sense, I’d rather not hear about someone for hours only to have him disappear. It’s just a waste of time and energy.
I think that when dealing with extroverts and charismatic people, they can frequently come across as being very sincere even when they don’t mean any of it.
pd 12
This is quite interesting in that I have found that the guys are tending to screen women more on a first date than we do to them. I am speaking for myself when I say I have been asked some very pointed questions about future plans, ie; do I want to get married/be in a long term relationship when this is on my online dating profile that I am looking for the real deal if it works out that way. I get a bit confused with this sort of question as I think I am going out with a guy who says he wants the same thing only to find out that he doesn’t and that he’s put that on his profile as a way to get women interested.
It seems to me that a lot of men have an online dating profile just to see if they can get sex and I have been told my some men that they have met women who do the same.
I wish I knew what the answer is!
Nicole 13
@pd. I just had someone whose FIRST question to me online was why I was on the site and also when my last relationship was. I guess he didn’t like my answer b/c while he sent me several messages in one day, after i answered his question he didn’t contact me again. Weird.
helene 14
I know its not Evan’s recommended way, but I have to say I agree with those who find pre-date screening (either by phone or e-mail) to be a bit pointless and/or misleading, possibly creating a false picture and a false closeness with someone you’ve never met. If first dates are prone to the pitfall of “interrogating” your partner, pre-date phone conversations are even worse in this respect. Either the phonecall (which is, after all, with a complete stranger) is light but totally banal “what you doin’?” “watching TV… what about you?” “just clearing up after dinner…” or it turns into a grilling session where the man, for want of anything better to say to a complete stranger, starts asking you where you grew up, what job you do, how long you’ve been on match etc..etc…
I think that a person’s profile – what they say, how they say it, and what their picture is like – provide as much useful screening as you can get without being with someone in person. At least when you agree to meet for a drink you can then behave the same way you would meeting ANY guy in a bar – chat, smile, flirt, have a drink…. all much more natural than a pre date “phone interview.”
As far as the kiss is concerned, as in any other “first kiss” situation, men with experience take their cue from the woman. If a woman wants to be kissed, its easy enough to tell, she’ll be standing close to you, kind of lingering, giving you a cute look, and will problably go silent or let conversation tail off to create a pause in which you can move closer and kiss her. If she’s flapping about, keeping her distance, bustling around trying to hail a cab, chattering non stop…. she doesn’t want to be kissed. Bottom line, if a woman is standing near enough to you for you to be able to kiss her… then kiss her! If you don’t she’ll be mortified!
sofka 15
While I would agree that it’s mad to write someone off over whether or not he tries to kiss you at the end of the date, or whether or not he brings up an ex girlfriend, I’m still perplexed that some people seem to see the not asking anything/very much as being in the same category of trivialities, so I shall make the following point about people who just talk about themselves. Evan writes:
“we’re not mind readers. We’re not perfect. We do what comes naturally to us, not necessarily what comes naturally to YOU”
I think this sentence misses one crucial point, this being that for the most part, these things do not come naturally to “us” (Evan means women but I think there are people of both genders in each category). Instead, they are the result of years of hard work and effort, and often a steep learning curve that starts in adolescence. If a man (or woman) hasn’t got the basics by the time he’s (she’s) in his mid to late 20s/30s/40s etc, how long are we going to have to wait before he or she is fully socially functional? Many of us know how much of our own adolescence it took us to figure out how not to bore/annoy/upset the hell out of the different individuals and groups of people we spent time with, and we thus know we could be waiting years before the person in question is up to speed.
And I understand that someone might be nervous and insecure, but guess what – I’m nervous and insecure on many dates too but I still know that a conversation involves two people equally and if one person dominates, the other person will be left feeling like a passive audience of no real interest to the other.
Evan also writes: “Theoretically, we can do everything perfectly right on a date – check off 20 for 20 on your scorecard – and then be dismissed for trying to kiss you”. Again, when it comes to someone who just talks about him or herself, how can that not lose them the majority of “points”. I’m sure Evan’s own advice in the past has been to throw out the checklists and just go and see if you click as people, but if one person never makes any real effort to engage the other, then how can the other get any sort of enjoyment from the date at all. I personally don’t care if my date pays or offers to pay, whether the place he picks isn’t that great, whether or not he’s late, a little nervous, smaller than he says on his profile, etc. I have only one criteria on a date; Can this person engage me as I can engage them?
And finally, if he (or she) hasn’t learned these things, maybe it’s not his fault, there could be 100 reasons. Will that make me any less miserable if I end up with him? No.
Michael17 16
I agree with nathan. I’ve heard the “not enough chemistry” line (whatever *that* means) a lot too. That is when the woman didn’t just outright disappear. And I have had relationships and sex in my day. I’d like to think I am pretty well socially adjusted.
Dating just seems a lot harder now than 10 years ago. The screening just seems a lot faster now. Even “off-line”: the girl you met at Whole Foods probably has/has had a dating profile online, so that is how she dates now–writing people off too quickly.
Texts and email aren’t good screeners. A woman can come across as very flirty and fun-loving in her electronic communication, but then come across as a lot more guarded when you are finally face-to-face. I’m not a fan of long phone calls because it’s much harder to talk when you aren’t face-to-face, and when you don’t have the advantage of body language and the ability to touch.
To nicole and pd: I’m not a fan of asking pointed questions early on. If we get along well, we can talk about the stuff a little later.
Michael17 17
You know, of all the things that I found challenging about dating, the first kiss just isn’t one of them. I’m not sure why that it’s that way for me but it just is. Maybe it’s because I make it a point to touch my dates a lot. Also, I end the date with a bug, and if she is still facing me as I lean in, our lips just seem to meet or either I get the cheek. Which is fine–I don’t think the girl ever disliked me for going for it.
Brenda 18
Until recently, I was a bit heavy-handed on the predate screening (because of having limited time due to my two teenaged sons and a horrific work schedule), and then found myself having hardly any dates
So I loosened up a bit, took some chances in terms of dating outside my “type”, and guess what? I met a great man, someone my age, who talked quite a bit (that’s putting it mildly) on the first date……..I chalked that up to his being nervous, listened to what he said and just focused on getting to know him and seeing his good traits. He made me laugh, asked me about myself and just seemed so genuine. I focused on being present and enjoying him as opposed to going off a checklist, which by now, had been whittled down to 5 items……….
I ended up hugging him at the end of the first date because I was a little nervous about kissing him but boy, did we enjoy that second date kiss…………and quite frankly, if I had just confined myself to his match profile (and he had some photos posted that did not do him justice), and had not taken a chance and met him at a restaurant for our first date, I would have missed out on this really wonderful, loving man who was so so nervous and eager to please me.
Our great relationship has continued and we both believe we have met “the one”………but it never would have happened if we would have not loosened the “criteria” a bit.
Annie 19
@1
Here’s an answer to that dilema.
Hold her check with one hand lean forward toward her other cheek and give her a firm but gentle kiss on that cheek. It can be slow, or fast and warm. It means you are affectionate, attracted to her, but not being forward.
It’s really quite a nice thing to do. She’s not feeling doubtful that you dont’ like her, but she doesn’t feel pressure to respond when she may not be ready.
If she leans into you when you kiss her cheek and smiles afterwards( and looks down a little)…you are in like flin
Try it if you get the chance and let me know how you go
Anne 20
I linked to Evan Marc Katz’s article from a fantastic web site called Baggage Reclaim.com. It’s a good thing that I did, because I had not heard of Evan’s blog previously.
Evan’s article was very helpful, as were the above postings from readers. Combined, it helped me to learn more about men, as well as learning about other women. I particularly liked Sherrell’s short-and-sweet note, which says it all: when you ask the guy questions, you don’t know if you’re getting the truth, so why ask. That’s pretty much how I feel, except that when you ask a question, you can observe HOW the guy answers it and his body language. Sometimes you can tell whether he is likely to be lying, and if you think he is lying, then it’s a red flag that you should NOT proceed with that guy because he is not trustworthy.
I have to say that in the 5 years that I have been dating after my marriage ended, my dating experiences have been awful and very painful. I have only come across cheaters who pretended that they were being monogamous. The longest amount of time that the “relationships” lasted was 5 months. I put the word “relationship” in quotation marks because, in retrospect, what I thought was a relationship was not viewed in the same way by the guys. To them, it was just “dating.” Needless to say, as soon as I uncovered the cheating, I left. I do have to say, however, that I suspect that some of these guys actually wanted me to find out so that I would be the one to initiate the break-up, thus relieving them of the responsibility of having to do it and looking like more of a bleephole than they already were.
Some of these men were obviously very experienced at lying and at creating an illusion so that they could play their game and get what they wanted. They went as far as making a dinner to introduce me to their mother after being together for 3 months, introducing me to their grown children, sending flowers to my work, going on and on about how special I was to them, planning very cool dates that they knew I would enjoy, talking about going on vacation the next year or the year after that (!), being very affectionate (yet respectful, which is a very confusing thing to a woman because we interpret respect as a sign of caring, so when the guy turns out to be a cheater and a creep, it completely blindsides us and leaves us in a state of shock).
These experiences have been very devastating and have destroyed any possibility that I will ever be able to trust a man. In fact, I don’t even call them “men” anymore, because to me the word “man” is very special - it means a male who has honor, dignity, exercises discipline and self-restraint and can actually love a woman. So now, I just refer to males as “guys.”
I have also experienced the ultimate rudeness of being treated like a whore by men who either outright say they just want to “have fun,” “hook up,” or never want to be married, or don’t want to date exclusively, and other words to that effect. Needless to say, the conversation ends right there and I don’t proceed to a first date. Or if they divulge that on a first date, I don’t proceed to a second date. Most men, however, just lie, since they know that saying that type of thing is not going to get them far with the woman, so they just say what they think we want to hear.
They are able to get away with it because most men are VERY good at “reading” a woman and what she wants, especially the salesmen (word to the wise: do NOT date a salesman, especially the ones who travel for work). So, once they “got your number,” they just tell you what they think you want to hear — and some of them will go as far as acting the way they think you want them to act, UNTIL they get what they were after: sex. The ones who don’t want to be thought of as the bleepholes that they are will stick around for several more weeks, all the while planning how to exit. The ones who don’t care whether or not they look like a bleephole will break up with you within the same week that you had sex with them.
I frankly don’t understand why I have kept running into these creeps. I was very careful to look for signs of stability and being able to make a commitment in life and sticking with something: guys who have had their cars for a while, no fancy cars (definitely not red convertibles), own their home (even if it’s just a small condo) and have lived in it at least several years, have been on the same job for many years and have a stable work history, have been married (at least 10 years). I never care about how much money the guy makes or go out with someone for their money. What I found out is that these signs of stability and commitment in those areas of life does NOT translate into stability and the desire to commit with ONE woman. ALL of the guys I dated met the above factors and they were all cheaters who couldn’t stay with just one woman if their life depended on it.
In analyzing what has led to this very injurious and unhealthy situation for women (we need affection, sex and love, but with someone who respects us!), it’s obvious that the Women’s Movement of the 1960s did nothing but have been treat us as even more of a sex object than prior to the movement. The reason for that is obvious: the movement flaunted women’s “sexual equality,” which meant that women became ”sexually liberated” and started to engage more and more in casual sex. Thus, they increased the inventory of available vaginas – with disastrous results to themselves and to the rest of us because men don’t want to be with just ONE of us when they can have as many as they want. That’s the BOTTOM LINE!
As a result of all of the above, I took myself out of the dating pool, with the consequence being extreme dissatisfaction with my life, feeling alone and lonely, and very angry at men for placing me in this situation. Nonetheless, it’s the only thing I can think of doing to avoid experiencing more cheaters and greater emotional pain. Ahh…if only I had the super powers of reading minds, hearts, and teleporting! Alas, I do not. So, I will stay out of the meat market and focus on other life areas.
Liz 21
Ack. Is anyone else bored of hearing Honey talk about herself and Jake? We get it, you slept with him on the first date and you got married. But that doesn’t mean it’s a good strategy for other women to follow. You are the exception.
david 22
This is a bit off Evan’s original posting, but was brought up in the comments — I’ve found talking to someone I met online is OMG, PARAMOUNT — even for just 15 – 20 mins — the times I haven’t, it’s really, really burned me — I would have caught how off our “rhythms” were or how socially awkward (or weird) they were…and the times I chalked it up to them being “bad on the phone” — ALWAYS, 100% of time, they were ‘bad’ in person / in ‘real life’…There are people I didn’t met up with after a short (or 20 – 30 min) phone conversation because it felt like being sucked into a black hole of weirdness or boring-ness — there way no way that was going to turn around in person….
nathan 23
“I think this sentence misses one crucial point, this being that for the most part, these things do not come naturally to “us” (Evan means women but I think there are people of both genders in each category). Instead, they are the result of years of hard work and effort, and often a steep learning curve that starts in adolescence. If a man (or woman) hasn’t got the basics by the time he’s (she’s) in his mid to late 20s/30s/40s etc, how long are we going to have to wait before he or she is fully socially functional?”
There’s a lot of important things in this paragraph. It seems to me that if at some point, you don’t choose to deliberately pay attention and learn from your experiences, then things are probably just going to be more difficult for you. I would guess that some people will have more of that “natural” ability to read situations and cues than others, but even the best athletes, for example, have to do a lot of training and practice to maintain that.
So, while it’s smart to give a date who is somewhat nervous and not entirely “with it,” it’s also fair to reject a person that seems completely clueless about social cues or interacting with others. The danger with being too lenient is getting into a situation where you hope to “fix” the other person – which is nearly always a disaster.
Andrew 24
Here’s a little trick I tell my female friends who are single:
Look for reasons to accept a guy rather than for reasons to reject a guy.
Panda 25
To the men who had an awesome first date with me and then I just disappeared – the reasons: 1) I admit I wasn’t impressed with what you did for a living and felt like I made more money than you did – and that bothered me. Horrible but true so I bailed. 2) I found out the hours of your job are 2nd or 3rd shift or you traveled too often so I bailed. I knew you wouldn’t have the time for me that I wanted and I didn’t feel that strong of a connection to let the hours not bother me. 3) I caught you yawning when we were in conversation and though I wouldn’t say you were bored, it was a signal to me that you had trouble paying attention. And there were sometimes awkward moments of silence. I figured you were trying really hard to communicate and it was difficult because you weren’t much of a “talker” naturally - and then I found out that you took some college courses but never graduated. I felt our education background wasn’t all that equal and I’d knew I’d grow bored with you as time went on – so I bailed even though physically I was very attracted to you. 5) I was impressed with job, income, your hobbies, where you had traveled..you were intelligent and into me – the problem was I just couldn’t get “into” you physically chemistry wise and couldn’t see you fitting in with my circle of friends - so I bailed. 6) We had a fun time I liked your sense of humor – your hair style could use an update and I’m not into smokers but these are things that can be worked with because I can see the potential of you hanging out in my circle of buddies. We got on great and we were attracted to eachother..the problem was you bought drinks all night and I got WAY too tipsy to the point that you were pawing all over me. When I got my wits about me, I figured you’d think I was really easy or conversely, I also felt a little “Too taken advantage of too soon”….so I bailed. Maybe none of these make sense to the man but at the time they made sense to myself and I just felt in my gut that it wasn’t “right” between us. I could’ve been more mature and told you my reasons, but I’ve been bailed on by plenty a guy who had their own reason as to why they didn’t want to go on a second date with me… and they never bothered to tell me why either.
Heather 26
I have to disagree with the fellow above who said that we women “make it harder to date.”
The reason we keep our guard up, is because we have run into men who have treated us less than respectfully, and we’d prefer not to have that happen again.
I do ask some questions, but I don’t really ask much about intentions (marriage, LTR, etc.) I have learned that alot of men will lie about that so they can get sex, and then move along. What I do now, is I let the guy talk. I listen to what he says, and watch his body language. That tells me quite a bit.
For example: I went on a date with a man I met online. We were talking about how long we each respectively have been divorced. He became pretty bitter about his ex wife, and told me almost exactly how much she spent in proceedings against him. Red Flag Number One. He then also went on a tangent about how monogamy was “a relatively recent concept” and how men are just not wired for such. Alarm bells rang all over the place and after that date, I never saw him again. I believe he could tell that I was not happy with what he had told me. It frankly scared me and I started backing off.
I’m not saying that it’s a good idea for us women to go into a date and act and sound so non-approachable that we come off as rude and cold. However, there are reasons why we have our guard up. If anything, it seems like you guys make it “harder to date” because of the lies, the games, etc. I am much more cautious now about whom I go out with for that very reason.
nathan 27
Heather, the lies and games are coming from all sides. I don’t think either men or women can claim some sort of superior status when it comes to that.
SJZ 28
Anne #20 I hear you! I feel the same way you do about online dating. I have done online dating for 4 years and realized I needed a break from all the rejection I was receiving. I don’t know how many times I was told “You just don’t wow me.” That is ok if I don’t wow you but, do you really need to tell me that? I think the whole way around this is to fully read the profile and tell the other person what you liked about their profile. If someone contacts you then ask them what they liked about your profile. Unfortunately the picture seems to speak louder to people than the written profile. If I go online again I will take more time to really read the profiles and try to get to know the person a little better before I meet them. I have read that it is not what you have in common but how deeply you believe the same things that count. I will admit that I have a twisted, bitter picture of men after online dating but, I also know a lot of good young men like my sons and my nephews who do care and are trying to do the right thing. It gives me hope for the next generation of men.
sharon 29
@ Annie #19
risky proposition. If a guy I had chemistry with put his hand on my face that could interesting. But if the guy I trying to see if I’m trying to develop chemistry with put his hand on my face I would feel very uncomfortable. I think peck on check is the safest lest off putting move unless you’re 100% sure the lady is into you.
Mami 30
Both parties should try and have as few expectations as possible. It’s difficult, but with fewer expectations, there is less negativity and less disappointment. You can still have your standards or check-list or whatever you’d like to call it. On the other hand, I think especially during the “courting” period, a woman SHOULD focus on a guy’s negatives. We usually focus solely on all the “wonderful” things about him and get swept up in the chemical high of meeting someone new. Yeah. Enjoy that high, but that’s when the man is on his BEST behavior. Notice the little things he does that you don’t like. Chances are, it’ll get worse with time, not better. The beginning is a time of evaluation, but I do agree that you should be as easy-breezy as possible.
I do think with age… and in the era of internet dating, people get extremely picky. To the point of where they won’t accept any faults or defects. There is an attitude that there is always something better out there. I think I saw this on an episode of “Say Yes to the Dress” (god, shoot me now). The fashion advisor Randy always says… yes, there MIGHT be another dress out there… but just like your fiance, you found a good one that makes you happy, so now it’s time to STOP SHOPPING.
Andrew 31
“If a guy I had chemistry with put his hand on my face that could interesting.”
And how do you let him know that you feel that chemistry?
If you’re giving off feminine signals, well, you fail. Remember, you are attempting to connect with a man, not a woman. Men do not speak or feel womanese and please don’t expect him to speak or feel womanese.
Karen 32
As always, right on Evan!
Margo 33
Well, I’m going to have to agree with Evan re his assertion that men are “looking for the potential for sex on the first date”. It’s slimy, but it’s true for most men (hope my sons don’t turn into these types of men). Anyway, I can wear a certain top and 95% of men in the vicinity will focus their eyes directly on my breasts. It’s not that I have porn star breasts, I don’t. However, I do have nice, full breast that are all mine. When I wear this blouse, it happens to show them off and my small waist rather nicely. Do, I wear this top to get attention? No, I don’t. It’s not even my favorite top, but I get the eyes on my chest anyway. This has even occured with my male friends who are in relationships but have always been attracted to me. The only men who don’t do a double-take when I wear this top are much older men who aren’t interested in sex, gay men and men who have sexual hang-ups. I have a friend with sexual hangups and even his eyes have strayed to me when I wear tight jeans.
One of my friends who looks when I wear “the top”, recently requested my company without his fiance’s presence. That relationship is on the rocks. I will say that before I think about accepting a date, he WILL say BYE to her and move her out of his house!
So, yes, men are driven by sex. It’s what they want. Not saying that excludes them wanting a committment. I am learning more and more about men, and sorry to say, most of it is pretty pathetic and sickening the way their nature is. I don’t dislike men, and I will marry when I find the right man, but in the interum, as women if we don’t demand certain things from men, we will get taken advantage of.
Gem 34
I agree with Evan that a first date should be light and fun and general information gathering without making the other feel interrogated. And that some behavior done, or not done, may be the result of nervousness and not a character flaw.
BUT, I have to say, in my experience, when a man does all the talking and asks me very little about myself, and steals the convo back to himself quickly, it has been a character trait that continued on as long as we dated. And not due to nerves.
I’m sensitive to trusting my gut about first impressions because most of the time, they are spot on or damn near spot on. “Me-Mee’s” don’t last long usually because I know the relationship, and the conversation will always be all about them. That is normally there on date #1.
Erinlee 35
@ Margo #33
Yes, a lot of men would accept sex on the first date if it was offered to them, but does this really make them slimy? I think expecting it and being willing to accept the offer are two different things and most men lean toward the latter. If he really just wanted to get laid, why not just go out to a bar and find someone to take home? Seems like the planning, time, money and process of asking out a woman is a lot to go through just to get laid. It’s up to the woman to present herself how she wishes to be known. If I had slept with my boyfriend the first night I met him, I probably would not have been asked out on a date. We’ve talked about it, and he told me that his attraction only grew stronger when I respectfully turned down his advances the first night we met. Are you the girl who gives it up, or the one who is worth the second date? If this top of yours is so provocative and you know it, then you are probably attracting the type of guys that are more likely to make a quick advance. You know you attract them when you dress this way, so don’t be surprised or act like a victim or like the guy is ‘slimy’ when you get hit on! As far as dating the man who has a fiance . . . this has dirty written all over it. Even if there was underlying attraction between myself and a man who had a fiance, that’s all it would ever be, attraction. If he ever tried to act on it like this man that you speak of has, I would lose all respect for this person and the attraction would be out the window too. There is no way I would ever consider dating a person that would make an advance on a woman when he was still committed to another, it doesn’t matter whether the relationship was falling apart or not. You’re in or your out, don’t be messing around until you are no longer committed, bottom line. I wouldn’t be able to respect myself either, if I was contemplating dating a man who belonged to another woman, not cool dude, not cool.
Your last line states, “So, yes, men are driven by sex. It’s what they want. Not saying that excludes them wanting a committment. I am learning more and more about men, and sorry to say, most of it is pretty pathetic and sickening the way their nature is. I don’t dislike men, and I will marry when I find the right man, but in the interum, as women if we don’t demand certain things from men, we will get taken advantage of”
Yes, men are driven by sex, I doubt that’s about to change anytime soon. The more I learn about men, the more I love them. I think the majority of them have good intentions, are generous, kind hearted, and darn worthy of a good woman. I don’t know what is so sick in their nature that could be worse than whatever is in your nature to make you think it’s ok to pursue a man that is already taken. And lastly, it’s not what we demand of men that allows us to get taken advantage of, it’s what we DON’T demand from OURSELVES that allows us to get taken advantage of.
hunter 36
It has been my experience, that, anxiety levels are very high on the first three dates….
Margo 37
Erinlee, the man who has a fiancee hasn’t made any advances on me yet. He just came over while I was out seeking to see me. He said he bought himself something new and wanted to show me.
Erinlee, also you said your boyfriend’s attraction for you only grew stronger when you turned down his advances the first night you met.
So, tell me? What kind of man makes advances on a woman the first night he meets her?
Answer: A scumbag.
Look, I’m like Evan, I’m just the messenger trying to point out the behavior of most men.
Evan Marc Katz 38
Here’s how we’re different, Margo. I observe people; I don’t judge people.
You say, “What kind of a man makes advances on a woman the first night he meets her?” I say, “Me, and a vast majority of men.”
And since I know that I’m not a scumbag and my male friends who do the same aren’t scumbags, that means that you’re putting a false label and rushing to judgment against the men who act in a way that YOU don’t want them to.
I’d be remiss if I didn’t point out that when I was dating prolifically, and making the first move on the first date, 95% of women were willing recipients and kissed me right back.
Just notice the difference of the commenters on here who judge men vs. the ones who don’t.
My close friend, Onna, just said something to me yesterday that blew my mind:
“The second I found Mr. Right was when I stopped making men wrong.”
Why don’t you give it a shot and let me know how it goes?
helene 39
Anyone got any advice on how not to “interrogate” men at a speed dating event? I’m going to one in a few days time and although its years since I went to something like that, I do seem to remember that it did seem to consist of a lot of quick-fire interrogation on both sides… One problem, as see it, is that unlike blind dates with people off the intertnet, where you at least have a profile that covers the basics and avoids you having to ask that stuff, at speed dating you don’t even have that… plus the short timescale means not much time to take it slow and chat about sweet nothings…. Any help would be appreciated!
Margo 40
@ Evan, I’m not talking about kissing. Erinlee’s comment “made advances” sounds like her now boyfriend wanted to do a lot more than kissing…A man who tries to have sex with a woman on a first date is a man that most women would run from. This behavior is tantamount to sleezy behavior/character. This type of behavior by mem (sleeping with women they just met) also leads to the spread of STD’s. A lot of men feel that it’s no big deal to engage in this behavior.
However, when the woman does the very same behavior, she is branded a slut. This stinks.
That isn’t a judgement, that’s an observation.
Margo 41
By the way, it’s not about making a man “wrong”. If he’s wrong, he’s wrong. Period.
Mami 42
Margo… you have every right to your opinion and yes, there is often a double-standard, but the way we stop double-standards is by ceasing to perpetuate them. And where are you coming up with this info that men sleeping with women on first dates is spreading STDs? Obviously having intercourse comes with risks, but virgins can get an STD the first time they have sex with a monogamous partner. I don’t think your argument holds any validity what-so-ever.
If you find a man sleezy for wanting to sleep with you on the first date, so be it. I think we are all animals. As a woman, I’d like to have sex as often as I want, with whomever I want, because I enjoy sex. However, there are consequences. If you specifically want a relationship with a man, odds are, you are going to need to hold-out for awhile to find out his true intentions. Sleezy to me is someone who intentionally lies or mis-leads another person… or perhaps a person with very little tact. Passing so many judgments about people in any arena of life is going to lead to heartache in my opinion. And having an open-mind means that you allow a man (or woman) prove who they really are to you. You just sit back an enjoy the ride!
Margo 43
@ Mami, lying to oneself doesn’t change reality.
Some women never learn.
Kathy 44
@Anne #20
Your posting really resonated with me. I have only been dating for about a year, am divorced and middle-aged. Although I have no trouble attracting men, the quality of available men in my age range (mid forties to mid fifties) is less than desirable. I didn’t throw in the towel but I did change some items on my list. Most importantly age. I met a man who is 8 years older than me and he treats me wonderfully. I am attracted to him, we have fun being with each other and I know where I stand with him. I also have a rule about not contacting first. That I would never change. I feel if the guy makes the first move, it is a good sign in the law of attraction.
nathan 45
Margo, the level of judgment and stereotyping in your posts is pretty astounding. Furthermore, you seem to have missed the fact that plenty of women these days are into first date sex, and some are even doing the sexual propositioning themselves. You act as if women are solely victims and men are solely predators, but it’s a hell of a lot more complicated than that.
Sofka 46
Anne #20
“I have also experienced the ultimate rudeness of being treated like a whore by men who either outright say they just want to “have fun,” “hook up,” or never want to be married, or don’t want to date exclusively, and other words to that effect.”
How can you complain about men who are completely dishonest about their intentions and then in the same post lambast all the men who are being completely honest about their intentions!? If you value honesty you should give these men some credit. And If you say these men are bad people for being honest about just wanting sex, are you really surprised that other men lie to you?
And just because you aren’t looking for no strings sex doesn’t mean to say other people aren’t within their rights to seek that for themselves and it doesn’t make them bad people for doing so (and they are emphatically NOT treating you like a whore, look the word up in the dictionary);
On the contrary, I think being up front about what they’re looking for is an act of kindness. As you point out, men who are honest about just wanting sex actually “lose” a lot of sex that they could have had if they hadn’t revealed their intentions (you write ”Most men, however, just lie, since they know that saying that type of thing is not going to get them far with the woman, so they just say what they think we want to hear.”) These men (and women who do the same) do reveal their intentions because they are prepared to sacrifice some of their own pleasure for the knowledge that they are not hurting or misleading the women (or men) they do get involved with. This to me is a sign of good character. Credit where credit’s due please.
Sayanta 47
Margo-
You have sons? I’m wondering how the hatred of men you’re seething is affecting them.
Ruby 48
Helene #39
In my experience with speed dating,3 minutes is only enough time to figure out if you have chemistry with the other person, and that’s about it You just can’t discover much in much a short time. I would suggest simply asking normal questions and casually chatting. It generally won’t be until you have an actual date or two that you’ll be able to assess any real potential.
Mami 49
Actually Margo, I’d like to think I’ve learned a ton in this life, but still have a long, long ways to go. But seeing things through the lens of non-judgment does not mean I am “lying” to myself. There is a big difference there. I allow a man to show me who he really is, rather than passing judgments on him. If he is “into me”, he will prove this through time and action. He will call, he will ask to see me, etc. In this way, there is no need to “chase” a guy, or really even wonder if he’s into you. If he is, he will find you. If getting into a relationship is the goal, you also decide your boundaries and can very softly implement them. A la the old adage, more to be gained by honey than vinegar. If he fades away, then he has demonstrated with that action. But everyone’s boundaries are totally different. You can share your boundaries with a man without calling him names. Nothing will repel a guy faster. My belief is that what you put out in the world is exactly what you will get in return.
Margo 50
@Sayanta #47, I love men. I love having boys. I have thanked God often that I have boys instead of girls. My boys are being raised with integrity. They are being raised to treat people right regardless of gender. They also will know that it’s a bad deal to deceive and mislead women in regard to relationships. They will know it’s a bad deal to sleep with a woman first, then drop the bomb that they don’t want a relationship afterwards.
Mami, I don’t call people names, be it men or women, until after they’ve demonstrated who they are. But, like a lot of women on here seem to do, I don’t sugarcoat a man’s behavior.
EJ 51
I think the reason that men are more lenient when it comes to dates is because they figure they can at least try to get laid, even if they aren’t attracted or interested in their date. Women don’t have that drive to hook up with anything they can, so there is less incentive to spend time on someone they have a ho-hum interaction with. What’s the incentive for women? I mean more of a short-term gratification, because constantly planning for 40 years into the future is not within basic human behavior and can get difficult to do day-in, day-out?
Heather 52
Nathan,
I’m not sure you read earlier in the thread but a fellow mentioned that we women “make it harder to date.” I don’t appreciate that. Not all women are bad, not all men are bad. But, as a woman, I have seen so many head games and lies coming from “your side of the fence.”
I’m just sayin. You men are far from perfect, and we women aren’t perfect either.
m 53
<i>”If the female (hey, ME) is interested in a kiss, she will have touched the guy during the date, be it tapping him on the shoulder, leaning against him, etc. It’s conveying the message, I am physically interested in you, and a little good night kiss is ok. I found this to be… fairly accurate, watching myself on dates. Not that I am looking for a kiss, but all the guys I wouldn’t mind kissing I am not pulling back from.”</i>
Thank you, Angie.
Not rocket science, and not mind reading … no matter all the whining that it’s one or the other.
wink2date 54
Stay confident “build confidence” use techniques like reassuring confident words you look great your confident, happy, fun to be around, don’t sike yourself up when approaching, you will seem like a nervous wreck and women can smell that a mile away show her that she is lucky to be sharing words with you. Stay chilled!
if the conversation dries off then make your exit say nice chatting gotta get going, then ask for her digits for drinks in the near by future then say bye 
and just remember she doesn’t bite lol 
Karl R 55
Margo said: (#50)
“They also will know that it’s a bad deal to deceive and mislead women in regard to relationships. They will know it’s a bad deal to sleep with a woman first, then drop the bomb that they don’t want a relationship afterwards.”
I think you’re destined to live a life filled with unpleasant surprises.
If a man sleeps with a woman, it means that he wanted to have sex with her (and may want to do so again). It does not mean that he loves her. It does not mean that he wants a relationship. If she assumed that it meant more than sex, she deceived herself.
You’ve been reading this blog for how long? This theme gets repeated every few weeks. If you want a happier dating experience, it’s time to absorb what Evan has been saying.
If a man loves you, he will say, “I love you,” (and will act accordingly). If he wants a relationship, he will try to date you frequently and exclusively. (Evan has just done several posts about how men behave when they want a relationship.)
Protect yourself from unwanted surprises. If a man has sex with you, assume that’s all he wanted until he proves otherwise. And if you see evidence that he wants more, scrutinize it to be sure you’re not reading too much into it. (For example, if he says you’re beautiful, you should assume that’s the reason he wanted to have sex with you.)
Steve 56
I have no problems getting 1st dates. Not at all. What have I observed? I go in for a first kiss…if she gives me the cheek? Not sure. Not a bad thing. 2nd date? If I hold her hand, put my arm around her or try to french kiss and I feel like I’m with a mannequin, it’s over. Why? The attraction is not mutual. Period.
Men want to know we’re not in the friend zone. Sex isn’t required, but jeez, be affectionate!
What else…men show too much interest too soon and women not enough.
The big elephant in the room in regards to dating? The question nobody wants to ask early on…are you dating others?
I’ve found that women who weren’t ‘affectionate’ on 2nd date were usually dating other men and couldn’t decide. Guess what? Not my problem.
I live by this phrase when dating and women can live by it too…
I will NEVER compete for your affection, even with your FRIENDS and sure as hell will never prove I’m better then the jerks or bitc*&s before me. Period.
It’s about mutual devotion. Mutual attraction? Easy to figure out. I touch you and you sit there like a mannequin.
One more tip for the ladies…HAVE FUN! Men want fun. Sex? Nice, but c’mon, you can flirt, can’t you?