I Am a Nice Guy With Little Dating Experience. How Do I Get a Woman to Go Out With Me?
Pages: 1 2
Good Morning Evan,
I have a bit of a dilemma. I am almost 21 years old and I have only dated one woman in my life and I dated her for 4 years. She broke up with me in the summer of 2006. I’ve asked out several women since then, and they all rejected me. Just a few months ago I moved to Florida, and I’ve asked out two women and they both said no to me, too. I think I must be cursed. I feel scared to ask out any other women for fear of being rejected. The worst thing about this is that the last woman told me to never change who I am because I gave her a rose for New Year’s Eve. She said a man had not done that for her in a long time. But if she won’t go out with me, how can I be myself? In a way, I have an identity and a dating crisis.
I heard you were an expert, so how do I get a woman to go out with me?
Alex
Nice guys rarely do well with women, but it’s not BECAUSE they’re nice. It’s because they have no confidence.
Dear Alex,
Your crisis isn’t an identity crisis or dating crisis; it’s a confidence and perception crisis.
Your sample size of experience is so small that you’ve turned every tiny setback into a disproportionately large failure. This is impacting your perception of the world to view yourself through a prism in which you are “cursed”, “scared”, “rejected” and afraid all in one paragraph.
So let’s shake you out of this funk and set your record straight.
(This goes for any other reader – male or female – who has ever felt a lack of confidence in his/her ability to date. Dating failures are almost ALWAYS perception and confidence problems and not real problems.)
Okay, Alex. Your question says it all: “How do I get a woman to go out with me?”
The answer is: “You don’t. You become the man that she wants to go out with.”
It may sound like wordplay, but I assure you, it’s not. Our job as human beings is not to make anybody do anything. Every email I receive that says, “How do I make a man want to commit to me?” misses the point. You can’t make a man do anything. All you can do is be the kind of woman that makes a man never want to never leave. The focus is on who you are, not on how you want him to act.
Same for you, my rose-giving friend.
You’re a nice guy. Nice guys rarely do well with women, but it’s not BECAUSE they’re nice. It’s because they have no confidence. They don’t inspire, they ask permission. They don’t lead, they follow. They don’t trust their judgment, they want to see if their judgment is okay with their girlfriend. And they certainly don’t believe that they’re good enough to get any woman interested in them – they just feel fortunate to be in the conversation at all. In short, nice guys have to grow a set of balls.
 |
Why He Disappeared is the smart, strong, successful woman's guide to understanding men. If you want to learn how men think, and rediscover how to have meaningful relationships - all from a man's point of view - click here to learn Why He Disappeared. |
Do You Want to Attract the Partner of Your Dreams?
If so, sign up for my free dating and relationship newsletter and receive my free eBook, The 5 Massive Mistakes You're Making In Your Love Life - And How to Turn Them Around Instantly. Simple and effective advice to jumpstart your love life.
49 Comments »Filed Under Dating
Michael 1
Is this an exact solution?
mic 2
It could be many things. It’s probably many things. Generally, it involves appearance. If anyone doubts that, imagine a “bad boy.” He looks masculine, doesn’t he? Having had a relationship before is a good sign, but still appearance likely is a factor. Single women don’t reject out of hand guys who are nice to them and sexually appealing to them.
Karl R 3
Alex said:
“I feel scared to ask out any other women for fear of being rejected.”
That’s the attitude that will cause you to fail at dating.
There are a few differences that will allow you to succeed:
1) Don’t take rejection personally.
What percentage of women in your city would you date? 5%? 1%? Does that make them horrible undateable women? Do you think every woman in the world should be interested in dating you? If not, why do you assume that you’re undateable just because several women weren’t interested?
2) It won’t kill you if you get hurt.
I’ve been turned down, broken up with and cheated on. None of it killed me. I’d rather run the risk of getting hurt again than stop dating altogether.
3) Dating is a learned skill.
You can “be yourself”. You just need to learn a new skill. I can be myself while learning how to confidently ask a woman for her phone number, ask her out on an interesting date and carry on a comfortable conversation while on a date.
4) Broaden your definition of “success”.
You need to practice the skills you learn. If you get an opportunity to practice, that’s a success. It might not be the kind you want, but it will eventually lead to more success.
I used to be nervous on first dates. In 2007 I went on 10 first dates. Only 3 led to second dates. But by the end of that year, I no longer felt nervous on first dates.
5) It’s okay to be nervous.
You can be nervous, scared or even terrified of dating. That’s okay … as long as you don’t let it keep you from dating.
Lance 4
Grow a set of balls. Doh! That just happened.
I would recommend a couple of things:
1. Read The Game. Don’t take it as gospel, but understand that there are things you can do.
2. Go out for 30 days/nights straight and talk to everyone you see. This is social skills bootcamp and every 21-year-old hopeless romantic male needs to do this.
3. Talk to 100′s, even 1000′s, of women with no agenda and no interest whatsoever in the outcome. Talk to people simply to get to know them and impart your own value. Dates will happen.
By the end of that process, you’ll never have to worry about getting dates again.
Lance´s last blog post…Spring Chicken: Birthday Celebrations!
Joe 5
4) Don’t take it personally when they say “no.”
mic 6
It would be good to know what’s a normal success rate for an average young guy, re asking women out. To know when an underlying problem should be suspected. There is some data on Internet dating, but that’s not relevant to the blog entry.
Also, will any women fess up to the role of appearance in not granting first dates?
kenley 7
Yes, Mic, appearance is very important to women just as it is to men. Men don’t typically want to date women they find unattractive, and women don’t typically want to date men they find unattractive. However, as has been mentioned on this blog several times, attractive women are much more likely to date unattractive men than vice versa.
happygirl 8
Do not take it personally if a woman does not want go out with you. Keep on trying and be confident about yourself. I met and dated in 2 and a half years time 16 guys. It was not easy in the beginning. I just got out of a long relationship and so was still a bit uncertain and had no experience in dating for such a long time. Over time progressively the men who I went out with were more serious and quality guys.
I had a choice to either feel “scared” and give in to feelings of rejection, because some guys were just not into me, or keep a positive outlook. I kept on dating and meeting men and and learning and gaining experience. I did the latter. I would suggest you do the same.
I also read a lot of books and advice colums such as Evan’s to see what I could do to see dating in a different way and learn to take a different approach.
Good luck
the foreigner 9
@mic
Success rate is dependent on two things:
1) how many that are interested in you
2) how well you can judge that interest
You can have a very high success rate by simply learning how to tell when they’re interested. Or more precisely, being able to see what they are interested in. Casual talk, friendship, the drink you’re buying them or maybe a first date. Even if you may end up not placing as many bets, every bet is a win. Fewer let-downs boosts your confidence.
Karl R 10
mic said: (#6)
“It would be good to know what’s a normal success rate for an average young guy, re asking women out.”
If you figure out a way to determine this, let us know.
My odds change a lot depending on the environment. If I’m in a bar my odds are probably pretty low. If I’m out dancing, my odds are pretty good.
mic said: (#6)
“will any women fess up to the role of appearance in not granting first dates?”
From what I can tell, appearance is about as important to women as it is to men. My conversations with women support this.
Jonsi 11
@mic, it’s not healthy to compare yourself to a “normal” success rate, because such a thing does not exist. Many men who ARE successful, for example, simply learn earlier in the process when to bail. Do you still count talking to those women as at bats? More women are going to say no than yes. People who are “good” will still be rejected 2/3 times.
I like Lance’s suggestions. When first getting into the dating game, your first time ever or after a relationship, the best thing to do is focus on becoming a more social being. There is nothing wrong with inviting these women out as friends at this stage in developing dating confidence, especially at 21 years old. In fact, most relationships at that age develop out of friendships and when I first started dating and targeted women at that age, the ones I was friends with actually thought it was weird and uncomfortable when men invited them on dates (especially the coffee/dinner/movie variety). Ultimately, you want to LEAD and not be friends, but like Lance said: get to know them and invite them into your life, with NO AGENDA. Be outcome independent. Doing that will increase your social circle and your social confidence and the dates will fall into your lap. You never want to single out one woman who you crush on and befriend her with an ulterior motive; you do want to find a bunch of women you find fun and attractive and becomes friends with them.
Being a new guy in the city, that is an ADVANTAGE for increasing the number of women in your life. People are almost always receptive to inviting you to social events if you alert them that you are the new guy and are looking to meet new people.
casualencounters.com/blog 12
I’m down with Lance for 2&3. Some reservations about The Game, which I won’t go into here.
Seriously. Take a long, hard look at yourself, and stop inferring a conclusion based on might-as-well-be-nothing.
Nice guys with balls. It can happen. Make it so.
casualencounters.com/blog´s last blog post…Quick update – Flight of the Conchords: Business Time
Treifalicious 13
Yes, appearance is VERY important in the granting of first dates. Women are conditioned to SAY that men’s appearance is not important, and men seem to have this idea that they don’t need to be attractive, that they just need to have money or something. But believe you me, if a fat, unattractive man with tons of money asked me out, the answer would still be no.
Also, why doesnt anyone write advice for women in how to get asked out by men she actually wants to go out with? Since it clearly doesn’t pay for women to make the first move with men (as a man not asking a woman out first is clearly an a priori rejection by the male, apparently) and women must wait for men to approach them, then it means that women might often get attention from men they are not interested in. If the only men who approach you are men you aren’t especially attracted to 90% of the time, how can women attract men they actually WANT to date (as opposed to those they allow to date them because they are bored/lonely/want some kind of action)?
Is the answer just to be hot and let things take care of themselves? What if you are a woman at a party a hotter woman is in the room? Should you just forget about it since all the guys will be crowded around the hottie? How can women pretend to be interested in the men that step to them because they can’t get the hottie they really wanted?
Steve 14
Alex;
You might find this rant about “nice guys” written by a woman on the Heartless Bitch site useful. It expands upon Evan’s point not to confuse being “nice” with being “insecure”. It is a bit harsh but it says a lot of things that need to be said and that are useful:
http://heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/niceguys.shtml
I second Lance’s recommendation of reading “The Game” by Neil Strauss. I wouldn’t take it literally or read other stuff in that venue, but use Strauss’ study as food for thought.
Karl R 15
Treifalicious said: (#13)
“it clearly doesn’t pay for women to make the first move with men”
I disagree with that. Of the women I dated last year, I dated one specifically because I knew she was very interested in dating me. It didn’t work out (she was a bit on the young side, and was a little immature for her age), but I wouldn’t have asked her out at all if she hadn’t made her interest blatantly obvious.
“What if you are a woman at a party a hotter woman is in the room? Should you just forget about it since all the guys will be crowded around the hottie?”
If there is a woman at the party who is so hot that all the men are crowded around her, I’m immediately going to be chatting up the 2nd, 3rd and 4th hottest women. There’s a scene in “A Beautiful Mind” that explains why it’s not in my best interest to make a fool out of myself by chasing the super-hottie. I’ll do much better by ignoring her and being seen as sociable and friendly with all the other attractive women who are receiving less attention.
Furthermore, “hotness” is not the only important attribute. I want a woman who is smart and funny … and also attractive. I’m really looking for the smart & funny women … and then I’ll chase the hottest of those.
“If the only men who approach you are men you aren’t especially attracted to 90% of the time, how can women attract men they actually WANT to date”
Let’s say 90% of the men who approach you are unattractive. That implies the other 10% are attractive.
What’s the problem with that? If you can get 20 men to approach you in an evening, then you can pick between the two who you like.
If guys think that you’re approachable, more of them will approach you. You can be sociable and polite without being flirtatious to most of the 90%. That will help you seem approachable.
“why doesnt anyone write advice for women in how to get asked out by men she actually wants to go out with?”
It’s really simple. Figure out what kind of man you want. Find out where those type of men hang out. Figure out what those men are looking for. Be that kind of person.
For example, if you want to date someone who is a good dancer, learn the places where all the best dancers hang out. And since all the good dancers want to dance with other good dancers, you’ll need to become a good enough dancer to where they enjoy dancing with you.
Evan Marc Katz 16
why doesnt anyone write advice for women in how to get asked out by men she actually wants to go out with?
Karl’s right. Most women ask why the “wrong” men ask her out, or where the “good” men hang out. This is missing the point.
Be the woman that the “good” men want and they will respond to you EVERYWHERE – at the bank, at the DMV, at a party, and online.
If the men you want aren’t responding to you, you aren’t who they want in return. Maybe it’s about looks, but that’s a small piece of the puzzle. Get on my mailing list for an email tomorrow about Rachel Greenwald’s new book, “Why He Didn’t Call You Back”…
http://www.evanmarckatz.com/newsletter.html
mic 17
Looking “hot” is the wrong approach to take if trying to be approached by the right guy. Attractive with class is more like it. Undoubtedly, some female expert has written about it. How to entice through body language is out there, actually.
As for men, it still would be nice to have numbers, even though yes they probably vary depending on the individual and how well he gauges interest. 30 consecutive rejections – something is wrong, correct? Karl, will you share your own numbers, as best as you can recall them? One thing is clear – often “rich” without “famous” or exclusive access doesn’t help, because visible signs of wealth aren’t very reliable.
mic 18
Also, before getting to a clever new question, it was good to get so many answers to the one aimed at women.
Now, this might be top-secret territory, but what are the specific tricks women consciously use to quickly discourage romantic interest in undesirable (probably physically so) males who have gotten them into conversation? “I have a boyfriend”? “Excuse me, I need to visit the ladies’ room”?
Karl R 19
mic asked: (#17)
“Karl, will you share your own numbers, as best as you can recall them?”
A little less than a year ago my last exclusive relationship ended. I wasn’t doing any online dating during that period until a few days ago.
In person:
There were 10 women that I asked for phone numbers or e-mail addresses. I got them from 9 of them.
Of the 9, I asked 8 of them out.
Of the 8, I went on first (and second) dates with 5 of them.
Of the 5, I decided that I was interested in pursuing an exclusive relationship with 2 of them, though I did continue to date a couple of the others for a few months … primarily because I like having company when I go to shows. (As discussed in another thread, those ladies were aware of the situation.)
Of the 2 ladies that I was interested in pursuing an exclusive relationship with, neither became an exclusive relationship.
And as Jonsi (#11) indicated, a lot of my success comes from reading signals before while I’m talking/flirting.
Online:
In the 4 days I’ve been back on match.com, I’ve sent 2 e-mails and received 1 reply.
mic asked: (#18)
“what are the specific tricks women consciously use to quickly discourage romantic interest in undesirable (probably physically so) males”
The most common one is that they will avoid eye contact to discourage the man from coming up and initiating a conversation in the first place.
A-L 20
Karl, your stats definitely aren’t going to make the OP feel any better!
But another question for you: What percentage of women have you been interested in getting to know better but you picked up the cues from them that they weren’t interested? Because it’s quite possible the OP here isn’t picking up those signals.
casualencounters.com/blog 21
@mic They don’t laugh at your jokes. Even when they’re really funny.
casualencounters.com/blog´s last blog post…Paid adult dating site review – sexsearch.com
Selena 22
I also liked Lance’s suggestions of talking to as many people as you can, without an agenda. It’s a great way to get over shyness and develop social confidence. And confidence is what both men and women find attractive in potential dates.
I also liked Jonsie’s suggestion of inviting women out as friends. When I was young I felt more comfortable going on dates that involved a group of people at first vs. the one on one type (eg; dinner/movie). The advantage of this is that it gives you and your date the opportunity to talk with others if you’re nervous or worry you will run out of things to talk about with each other.
Selena 23
mic #18
I’ve used the “I’ve got a boyfriend” technique before. Effective and requires no further explanation as to “why” you are not interested making it more awkward for both parties. Only useful though if it’s unlikely the guy will find out that you don’t actually have a boyfriend and catch you out for the liar you are lol!
I was having a drink with a girl friend once when a guy came up and started hitting on her. She looked straight at him and said bluntly, “I’m not interested.” He looked a little sheepish, said “ok” and shuffled away. I looked at her and said, “Wow. That was direct, I just would have told the guy I had boyfriend.”
She said, “I have my big girl pants on today. Though I did consider telling him I was gay.” (She isn’t) Then she said, “Oops!” and smiled.
The guy sitting behind me had overheard her remark and was laughing. We started talking to him and he and I ended up dating.
Generally though, I think more subtle cues are avoiding eye contact, turning away to engage someone else in conversation, or sometimes simply saying “I’m not in the market right now.”
I feel for guys having to take most of the risk of rejection, but if you are a “nice girl” you don’t want to hurt the guy’s feelings if you aren’t interested by saying something that could come across as rude. Hence the popularity of the I-have-a-boyfriend blow off.
vino 24
“I Am a Nice Guy With Little Dating Experience. How Do I Get a Woman to Go Out With Me?”
Don’t sweat it now, at age 21. Focus on school. Get a good career from school. Have a balanced life with friends, hobbies interests. Be physically fit and healthy.
Don’t worry – you do those things. They’ll find you. Then you can weed them out.
mic 25
Karl is good-looking and has skills, it seems. Thanks for the particulars.
Avoidance of eye contact isn’t always a sign of disinterest, though. Shy women just don’t make much eye contact. But that goes back to the idea of why some women complain about being approached by the wrong guys.
Sayanta 26
what are the specific tricks women consciously use to quickly discourage romantic interest in undesirable (probably physically so) males?
The most common one is that they will avoid eye contact to discourage the man from coming up and initiating a conversation in the first place.”
I have REALLY got to work on this- I do a lot of breaking eye contact with men I’m interested in- only because I’m so nervous. So, if the woman’s anything like me, it’s not that she’s not interested, but she may be breaking eye contact because she’s nervous or doesn’t want to seem desperate. I know this probably doesn’t make the guys feel that much better, but just wanted to give my input.
Michael 27
Also, why doesnt anyone write advice for women in how to get asked out by men she actually wants to go out with?
The easiest way for women to be asked out by men they actually want to go out with is…..
….to ask out men that they actually want to go out with.
Karl R 28
A-L asked: (#20)
“What percentage of women have you been interested in getting to know better but you picked up the cues from them that they weren’t interested?”
I couldn’t begin to tell you. It’s normal for me to do what Lance (#4) suggested: “Talk to 100′s, even 1000′s, of women with no agenda and no interest whatsoever in the outcome.”
Through dancing I’ve met at least a few hundred women. Through yoga, a few dozen. At church, dozens more. Many of these women are unavailable (married or otherwise taken), too old, too young, not what I’m looking for, etc. If I’m asking a woman to dance, my “agenda” is getting a dance partner for the next 3-6 minutes.
I will try to figure out whether a woman is what I’m interested in, and whether she’s interested in me. But it’s a lot more important for me to remember the former than the latter. Her interest in me can change.
mic said: (#25)
“Karl is good-looking and has skills, it seems.”
I’m some women’s type. I’m tall, thin, fit and pale; I wear glasses, have a baby face and a slightly receded hairline. If a woman wants the “manly man” look, she’ll have to go elsewhere.
But I don’t have to be Hugh Jackman. If 1 woman in 5 finds me attractive (or 1 in 10, or 1 in 20), that’s sufficient.
The main skill that I learned over the last few years (which has made a world of difference) was how to play to my strengths.
mic said: (#25)
“Shy women just don’t make much eye contact.”
There’s a difference, but it’s hard to explain.
MindMetrics 29
You know, Twitter might do Alex some good. The same rules apply there as in the dating world! If you aren’t participating as a thoughtful community member, and simply try to push your agenda – you’ll be rejected (people won’t follow). You’ll learn timing – the art of when and how to bring up your agenda. You’ll get feedback on your approach – are followers increasing or decreasing. You can work on your approach – almost like a science experiment – Twitter provides volume (so your sample size will be large).
Just a thought!
mic 30
Karl, your “world of difference” – how much more success with women (numbers, please) with presumably little change in appearance? Also, because appearance’s importance probably varies according to age, you and the women in question are how old?
Concerning eye contact – looking away and looking back is more likely shyness than disinterest. Whether it’s done with a frown or not probably means a lot.
Also, “I have a boyfriend” is not appreciated by men. “Then why are you here in this place without him?” Surely there is a better method. Even a sweet-sounding “Thanks, but no” might be better.
casualencounters.com/blog 31
I never make eye contact with people unless I intend to stab them. True story.
casualencounters.com/blog´s last blog post…Sexsearch.com site member recommends fling for casual sex. Awesome.
Selena 32
Re: #30
What would be the preferred method of rejection? Guys?
Karl R 33
mic asked: (#30)
“Karl, your world of difference – how much more success with women (numbers, please)”
I’ll break this down into the past 3 years, and the previous 10 years. During the previous 10 years, I had two exclusive relationships (5 and 6 months long). I had 1 or 2 dates with other women (maybe 10 women total, possibly fewer). I was basically waiting for relationships to “just happen”. That’s about as successful waiting for a good job to “just happen”.
In the past 3 years I’ve had two relationships that were longer than six months. I’ve had 4 more that lasted 1-5 months. And there were at least a dozen ladies that I went on 1-3 dates with.
“with presumably little change in appearance?”
There’s been very little change during that time. Admittedly, that’s a strong advantage to me. Many of my peers are getting flabby, bald and wrinkled.
You don’t need to take my word about my appearance. My profile on match.com is currently visible. Just do a search for Yoga_Class_Clown.
“because appearance’s importance probably varies according to age, you and the women in question are how old?”
I’m 39. The women (in the last 3 years) have ranged from 11 years younger to 9 years older. The oldest lady (48) may have been the most picky about appearance; she was certainly the most vocal about it. In her words: “I put a lot of effort into staying in shape. I expect my dates to also.”
Selena asked: (#32)
“What would be the preferred method of rejection?”
Anything that’s polite and honest.
Example: “I’m sorry, but I’m not interested.”
Michael 34
What would be the preferred method of rejection? Guys?
We will tell you as soon as one of you people ask one of us out.
mic 35
Hence, the prevalence of many older, single women today in this era where cheating the clock is much easier. There don’t seem to be many older, heterosexual men who make that level of effort – and hair loss seems to sabotage all else. Thanks for the detailed reply.
David Gideon 36
Alex, these four things will move you in the right direction…
1. Purpose:
Discover what your purpose is in life is and start pursuing it. Women like a man with clarity, goals, and who has his life together.
2.Be social
Start interacting with EVERYONE who crosses your path. You might be coming across as nervous or awkward when you approach women so the only way to overcome it is to practice your social skills until you get comfortable meeting new people.
3.Be persistent.
Don’t give up just because a girl isn’t showing interest initially or because the last girl said no. Keep approaching the girls you want to meet and displaying your personality until they see something they like.
4.Stay positive
Just being positive can turn many situations around. That means not getting mad at girls or getting all dejected when things don’t go as planned. Correct course and keep sailing with a smile on your face.
David Gideon
David Gideon´s last blog post…Mystery Method Documentary
hopethishelps 37
I would guess that you are asking for too big a commitment (a date) too fast. This discussion applies to American women only (sorry it’s so long):
1. Fact: Women are conditioned to say “no.” From the time we are old enough to understand that boys and girls are different, everyone in society is telling us that “Men only want one thing” and it is our job as ‘good girls’ to make sure they don’t get it. So, the first rule is not to take “no” personally. It’s a knee-jerk reaction, not necessarily her. And the mere fact that she’s aware she’s conditioned (which most of them don’t) won’t stop it from happening.
1a. If you want a woman to say “yes,” you have to get past fact number one. You do this by making it simple (or simpler) to say “yes.” Now, this doesn’t mean set her up to give a yes answer, because she’s had experience dodging that since high school, and it marks you as an amateur.
1b. Phrasing is important. A woman will not say yes if you ask in a self-effacing way. NEVER make it easier to say no, because she’s already conditioned. “You wouldn’t want to go out on a date with me, would you?” is SURE to get you a turn down. Instead, say, “I am [activity] at [place] on [day] [morning/afternoon/evening]. Would you [like to] come with me?” So: “I am going hiking at the park on Saturday afternoon. Would you like to come with me?” It’s clear, it’s to the point, it’s specific, it shows planning, it’s non-threatening (it’s not dinner), and (theoretically) it’s something she’d like to do (see below).
1c. A woman will say yes to smaller things rather than big things. So when speaking to women you’ve never met (say, at a bar or shopping center) don’t make it your aim to get a date, make it your aim to get her email addy (if young) or phone number (if older). Or make it your aim to find out when she will next be at that location, or if she’s going to see a certain band on Friday and make arrangments to “meet up.” This is NOT a date, it’s a non-threatening way for her to size you up.
2. Which leads us to fact two: The greatest fear that women have, by far, is that they will be killed or hurt by a man. And when women are hurt or killed, more than 2/3s of the time it is by a male they know intimately or who wants to be intimate with them. By comparison, the greatest fear a man has is that he will be laughed at by a woman. Hmmmm.
2a. Keeping your aim in mind, which is getting the woman to say yes, you need to reduce this fear of danger to a reasonable level. Strangers are scary. We learn that in kindergarten. A few pointers: don’t EVER loom over a woman. Particularly small ones. You will not come across as warm and cuddly, but threatening. Stay out of the personal space of women you don’t know well. Never try to break the touch barrier on first acquaintance, beyond a handshake if offered. If there is a woman you particularly want to meet, an introduction helps, especially if she is older.
2b. Familiarity breeds comfort, and comfort is more likely to lead to a “yes.” But not too much familiarity, as that tends to lead to a younger woman seeing you as a “friend” which is not going to get you a date. With older women, particularly much older women, if you want to date them, you will probably have to get past the idea that you are too young for them, which requires more familiarity first. You probably should break the touch barrier with an older woman *before* you ask her out, but I’m thinking that’s still 4 weeks work unless you know she goes out with men your age. It should go without saying that stalking is a huge no-no.
2c. Show concern for her safety. ALWAYS walk her to her car if it’s dark. If you take her home for any reason (even non-date related), ALWAYS walk her to her door. (which is not to say you get a good night kiss). Don’t overdo this or make a big deal of it. If she says, “You don’t have to do that.” reply with “My mother would kill me if I let you walk to your car alone.” or “If my father ever found out I didn’t see a woman all the way to her door, he’d disown me.” Make it about manners, not “the weakness of women.”
3. Fact three: appearance matters. Yes it does. Anyone who says different lies or is ignorant to point of disbelief. Appearance always matters. Women are, like men, attracted to certain “types” and if you aren’t that type, you’re going to have difficulty. However, on acquaintance, that difficulty can be overcome, sometimes.
3a. The corrollary to this is, appearance isn’t all about “physical looks”, at least with women. Women are interested in cleanliness, smell, put-together-ness, carriage, etc., more than men. Men are more about breasts and legs, women are much more concerned about hygiene. Really, if under your nails is dirty, where have you been? Don’t even think about touching me. Get over it and get with it.
4. This is a point, not a fact. Women are entitled to know they are on a date. Don’t try to trap them by, for example, saying “A group of us are going to eat steak on Friday night” and then it turns out to be a bunch of couples and you’re putting your arm around her and acting like a date. You might get through the evening, but it won’t happen twice. Always make sure the woman knows that it’s a date (if it is).
5. If you don’t know what kind of date to ask her on, you don’t know her well enough to ask her on a date. This is related to point 1b above.
5a. When planning to ask a woman on a first date (and you do plan, right?), you need to think of an activity that she would like to do, that you won’t fall asleep doing, that allows for talking (since the first date is supposed to be about determining compatibility), and that is non-threatening. This makes Saturday day and Sunday afternoon ideal for first dates.
Restaurants, movies, and live music venues are lousy for first dates. a) they’re pricey, b) they require the woman to dress up, which she might not be inclined to do for you yet (leading to a “no”), c) they might be too noisy, and most importantly, d) they don’t allow for conversation. Another problem, particularly if you are asking out a woman who dates a lot, is that restaurants and movies particularly are not very inventive as a date venue. Plus, she might want to take her own car if she doesn’t know you well, and most women don’t like walking into restaurants, movies, or live music alone, especially from a dark parking lot. And, movies have the added disadvantage of being threatening: are you going to try to put your arm around her on the first date? If she’s fretting about that, she won’t relax and have a good time (which is the goal of first date, if she likes the time she spends with you, she’ll go on a second date).
5b. Flying kites in the park, a museum exhibit, a walking tour of the city, a car show, the city aquarium, whatever. Find something that would (or might) interest her, that is not too expensive (or free), and that allows both of you to size the other up, preferably something you have in common. The reason I mention not too expensive is because we all know that you need to go on a lot of first dates to get a second, and expensive will bust you in a hurry. Something a little physical is “interesting,” but too physical will turn off many women, and has the added disadvantage of reducing conversation. In the same vein, don’t go somewhere with a lot of crowds (like an amusement park, fair, etc).
5c. Pick something that allows casual clothing. First dates break women financially too. If she knows she’s going somewhere that she can wear jeans and practical shoes, she can concentrate on you, rather than her wardrobe and possible malfunctions thereof. “What to wear” is always a problem for women, again your job is to make saying yes easy. If she has to change six times to find the right clothes, it might be too much work.
Sayanta 38
Hope this Helps:
You have made some very valid points- but I have to admit, I’m a woman, and if I were a man reading this very very long and demanding list (assuming I’d made it to the end)- I’d think there’s no point to dating someone if you’d have to walk on eggshells around them. And in your post, you make it seem as though women are the eggshells themselves. I hardly see how that would make things easier between genders.
And some of the suggestions depend on the woman: for example, you say live music venues are not first date ideas. Well- I saw Patti Smith in the park twice in the past few years- I went with my girlfriends, but if a guy had asked me, I would have gone with him in a minute (not saying that I would have had dumped my girls for a guy, but just saying the live music thing works for me).
You also say, “The greatest fear that women have is that they will be hurt or killed by a man.” Yes- there are precautions I take to make sure I’m safe. This is NOT my ‘greatest fear.’ I don’t know if this is how you meant to come across- but you make it seem as though all women are living in constant fear of men- and that their main goal is to avoid men.
Yes, violence against women is a serious problem- always has been. But does that mean I see ‘every’ man as a potential threat? No. But in this post, you make it sound as though women are just a bunch of helpless, scare, PICKY rabbits and the men are the big bad wolves always out to get them. Personally, if I were a man, I’d be put off- especially in this age of increasing balance between the genders.
mic 39
It does help. That women worry about getting dressed up is interesting, but to make a spark likely, both people on a date should be dressed to entice. Whether it’s form-fitting for a sporty activity or dressed up for a quality restaurant. Alex’s problem obviously is not that, but maybe something about his style from the start. Presumably not scary or filthy, but maybe too ‘student’ or sloppy, probably with a dose of submissive body language. There could be much more to it, but that would require speculating outside the area of expertise.
downtowngal 40
hopethishelps, if I gave a guy my number, I’d prefer he ask me out. It tells me he’s willing to take the time to get to know me and plan accordingly. Otherwise it tells me he’s not willing to go out of his way for me. Or he’s not interested or ready for a relationship.
Also, if I were at a concert w my friends, for example, I’d want to hang out with my friends.
Woman like it when a guy goes out of his way for her, it makes her feel special and makes him seem more attractive in her eyes. This doesn’t mean stalking her or bringing her roses on the first date. It can be as simple as calling her up (at a reasonable hour in the evening), saying how you enjoyed meeting her, chatting a bit, and – unless you’re hearing any red flags from her (like if she says her ex husband was just released from prison after serving time for murdering her last boyfriend), ask if she’d like to go out sometime, how’s this weekend.
A decent woman should be able to appreciate a little chivalry. If she doesn’t respond, then move on, go back to step 1 and find a gal who does.
hopethishelps 41
1. I don’t think this post is “demanding.” It is specific. But I think it’s what successful male daters do unconciously. The more experience a male has dating, the more likely he has internalized these behaviors, and doesn’t even realize he does it. That is, I think that most successful male daters (which I define as several new dates every couple of months) do all of these things and more, but they wouldn’t be able to point to each behavior because it’s so internalized they don’t even know they do it.
2. I don’t think women, as a group, are “fearful.” What we are, is more cautious. That’s genetic, it’s a survival response, and I’m the first one to say that most women don’t even recognize it as being there. But, if an inexperienced dating male doesn’t adequately compensate for the natural response, he’ll have a lot less luck dating. I think most males learn this by the time they are twenty (mostly by accident) but if you are not having good dating luck, this could be the problem. I’m not saying he’s intentionally coming on too strong, I’m saying he could be giving out inappropriate signals due to inexperience (for example, many men do not realize that the space above a woman’s head is generally part of her personal space, because men don’t generally have to worry about people above their heads). It’s not that the woman is “afraid” per se, it’s that something he’s doing makes her uncomfortable, and women who are uncomfortable are going to say no.
3. Concerning the dating venue (for a first date). The point of a first date (IMVHO) is to see if you like a person well enough to go out with them again (and vice versa). While a person may have a good time at a concert, how does having a good time at a concert improve your knowledge of the other person and whether you would like to go out with them again?
4. Concerning dressing up–I’m saying that dressing up can be a pain, and sometimes a woman will turn you down because she doesn’t feel like committing that much time (for whatever reason, only one of which is she isn’t interested in you personally). My point was to reduce the number of obstacles to a “yes” answer. Casual dress can be just as “enticing” as dress-up clothes, should you so choose.
5. And finally, if I give a guy my number, I expect that he will ask me out if he calls (and that’s my preference as well). I think that’s the preference of most women (else why did you ask, and why did I give it?). I may not have made that clear. However, it really sounds like this guy is either approaching women he already knows, or is asking for a date instead of a phone number. Perhaps I read too much into it.
I do think that asking a woman out that you chat up in a bar or grocery store (even if she gave you her phone number) is much more advanced than asking out someone whom you know a little bit about and can tailor the experience to. People don’t think about the fact that most of their early dates are with people from their high school or other nearby high schools–you have things in common if only teachers and detention, and you usually know who they are or you can ask around about them. You practice on people who are also inexperienced (or forgiving) and who can ask around about you. Women can be very unforgiving of what they see as a “juvenile” mistake. This guy may be a little late out of the gate, and may not yet be up to the advanced moves that someone who’s been dating regularly since 9th grade can do.
“meeting up” with someone (if you can’t or don’t want to ask for a phone number on first acquaintance) doesn’t have to be “stalker” behavior (“Oh, I’m going to be there to, maybe we’ll see each other” and then a *short* interlude), but does permit increased familiarity (which decreases his anxiety too, by the way). Then you ask for the phone number.
Karl R 42
hopethishelps said: (#41)
“I think that most successful male daters (which I define as several new dates every couple of months) do all of these things and more, but they wouldn’t be able to point to each behavior because it’s so internalized they don’t even know they do it.”
I would say that these behaviors may be internalized, but they’re also situational. And I also think through some of your points differently than you do.
If I want to ask a woman on a date to do something fun and unusual, I’ll need to do some internet research. Therefore I want to ask her for a phone number or e-mail address, so I can do my research and have a plan before calling her.
Like most rules, a lot of yours can be broken. A few examples:
1) Hygiene is important, but I once met a woman when I stopped for coffee on my way home from 3 hours of yoga. I left with her business card, an excuse to contact her, and a request from her that we “get together for coffee sometime.”
2) I meet most women through social dancing, where I can expect to break the “touch barrier” immediately.
3) A woman my age has a complete wardrobe, and doesn’t need to buy new clothes just for a date. However, I will frequently comment on how dressy a venue will be (and what I planning to wear), just to make it easier for her to decide what to wear.
4) You can circumvent most familiarity/safety issues if someone the lady knows and trusts feels safe with you.
For an inexperienced dater, I would simply recommend that they read as much dating advice as possible, and do everything that makes sense.
PHILLIP ROBBINS 43
IT ‘S A WONDER NO ONE EVER TELLS ANYONE ABOUT THIS LITTLE TIDBIT I’M ABOUT TO SHARE. IF YOU THINK THERE’S NOT GIRLS OUT THERE NOT INTERESTED IN YOU THEN THINK AGAIN. THEY ARE BUT PROBABLY JUST AS SHY OR NOT WANTING TO BE TO FORWARD.
WHATS THIS GUY TALKING ABOUT??????
DO A GOOGLE SEARCH FOR WOMEN/GIRLS BODY LANGUAGE
THERE ARE GIRLS OUT THERE BROADCASTING THEY LIKE YOU AND WONDERING WHY YOUR NOT PICKING UP ON THEIR SIGNALS THEIR SENDING YOU. HEY AND TO YOU GIRLS YES WE GUYS HAVE OUR ON BODY LANGUAGE ALSO THAT WE BROADCAST.
YOU MAY BE SURPRISED AT HOW MANY ARE OUT THEIR SUBCONSCIECELY SAY THEIR INTERESTED IN YOU
Rahim 44
Damn guy, you launched on this poor dude like Mussolini from the mezzanine. The guy is young with limited experience… that pretty much sums up his problem. He doesn’t have an inferiority complex or a gonadal deficiency or a subconscious attachment to his mother. The man just needs to get out more. Brevity and simplicity are the hallmarks to all the best things in life, blog posts included.
mjdavid 45
Karl
You’ve mentioned dancing as a way to meet women in several of your post. I like most men don’t dance well. Most of us men don’t want to look stupid. I’ve been thinking of taking dancing lessons. Do you think it’s a good idea? and if yes what kind of dance?
PHIL ROBBINS 46
YEH, BUT SOMETIMES KNOWLEDGE IS POWER ,AND WITHOUT THAT KNOWLEDGE ONE IS CLUELESS,DAZZED,AND CONFUSED. I AGREE HE SHOULD GET OUT THERE BUT WHEN YOUR UNSURE OF EVERYTHING YOU DO IT HINDERS YOU GREATLY. BELIEVE ME I KNOW BECAUSE I WAS MUCH LIKE HIM WHEN I WAS A TEEN MANY MANY MOONS AGO LOL LOL .
STOP AND THINK ABOUT IT IF YOU SAW BODY LANGUAGE OF A GIRL (THAT IS AFTER FINDING OUT WHAT THEY ARE ) THAT EITHER SAYS I’M INTERESTED OR (AND THERE ARE THOSE SIGNALS THAT SAYS STAY AWAY DON’T CARE TO KNOW YOU ALSO .
WOULD THAT GUY OR GIRL BE ALITTLE MORE OPTOMISTIC ABOUT APPROACHING THAT PERSON TO BREAK THE ICE SO TO SPEAK?
JUST A THOUGHT
Karl R 47
mjdavid said:
“I like most men don’t dance well.”
I didn’t either. If you have a sense of rhythm (about 10% of people don’t), you can learn to dance well. The big difference between someone who is a “natural” (which fortunately I am) and someone who is not is only the time and effort that it takes to achieve the same results.
One of my friends is not a natural. It takes him about 3 to 4 times as long to learn as I do. Five days ago he and another friend won a citywide swing dance competition.
“Most of us men don’t want to look stupid.”
Neither do I. But if you stop worrying about it, you’ll be able to learn to dance faster.
“I’ve been thinking of taking dancing lessons. Do you think it’s a good idea?”
If you’re interested in learning to dance, absolutely.
If you’re solely interested in meeting women, you might pick a hobby that you’ll enjoy more.
One of my instructors (who is a national/international dance champion) said there were five things you needed in order to learn to dance well:
1) group lessons
2) practice
3) private lessons
4) practice
5) practice
And you can skip either the group lessons or the private lessons. (I’ve never taken a private lesson.)
“if yes what kind of dance?”
Start with style that’s easy to learn.
East coast swing, foxtrot, polka, salsa, Texas two-step, etc.
What kind of dancing is popular in your area?
i.e. Texas two-step is not popular in Australia. Find something where you can go out and practice/dance on a regular basis.
What kind of music do you like?
If you prefer fast, up-tempo music, then foxtrot might not be the best choice.
Find a local source of information
If you’re in Houston, I can provide specifics. Otherwise, you’ll want someone who knows your city much better.
If you know someone who dances regularly (and takes lessons, etc.), they will be able to provide insight into the local dance scene.
If you’re ever out and see someone doing any type of partner dancing (and doing it exceptionally well), just go up and ask them where they learned, where they go to dance, etc. That’s how I initially found the studio I’m at. And I’ve answered the same questions dozens of times when out dancing.
Dance studios can also answer some of these questions (where to go practice, what’s easy to learn). If they can’t answer these questions, it’s a sign that they don’t know what they’re doing.
stephen mosher 48
my name is stephen mosher, and I have asked lots of women out and and am sort of a bad boy at times but over all a nice guy the thing is that I have asked women out for years and all have said no I dont understand, I tryed every thing you can think of and sadly enough Im afraid that as good as a coach as you are, their are some of us that will be doomed to walk the earth alone forever. and never know what it is like too know love.
Mickey 49
Stephen #48: Well stated; I know the feeling.